PG is off in my opinion as far as Steph having a problem with experience rather than physical gifts. I see varied expectations in the comments as far as who should pay- I guess it depends on your circle. When my generous aunt invites the other nieces and me to dinner at a nice restaurant, we know that she's paying. My friend group, however...there's no extra money laying around for any of us. I just received a text to come celebrate a friend's birthday at a nice but pricey brunch spot, and I declined. $50pp plus a sitter for four hours...nope. For not a second did I think my friend or his boyfriend were treating the group. You have to know your crowd (and typical behaviors).
Also think it's a bit rude that Steph thought it was hosted and invited their husband along.
20
Letter 2: I don't understand how PG comes to the conclusion that the writer is judging the 'experiential' boyfriend. I think the writer is right to feel insulted that s/he is expected to pay for the privilege of attending the party. The boyfriend did not ask for payment in advance and is not entitled to it after the event. His girlfriend should be told so that she can know that he intends his 'sweetness' to be funded by her friends.
14
RE LW#1 I worked as a counselor with grieving widows and widowers. One of the worries that many of them expressed was a fear of forgetting their spouses's face. This fear was often complicated with a feeling of guilt, as though this natural phenomenon meant that they had not cared enough. This is a feeling one must work through in their own time. If LW#1 has a photo gallery on his phone, he could move his wife's picture to the gallery instead of using it as wallpaper. Then he could look at it anytime he is by himself.
15
LW1: Of course you want to remember your wife—she’s a huge part of who you are, your life. But she’s in the past. She should not be on your phone, which is aggressively the present. Add her picture to the gallery of every moment in your life that you want to preserve, but your present love is your today.
LW2: the boyfriend is gauche beyond belief. It should not be beyond his pocket to pay the bill for 5-10 friends, but if it is, make the arrangements clear upfront. A friend asked me to go to a birthday weekend at a very expensive house she’d rented; for the life of me I couldn’t figure out If I’d be expected to chip in—and I knew I couldn’t afford it. So I just declined. Good hosts say, my treat—or not.
LW4: get over it. Why take offense over a conversation you wouldn’t balk at if the other party was physically present instead of on the other end of a phone? Sorry, but that’s pretty 90s. If you wouldn’t slug ‘em if they were there in person, keep quiet when they’re not.
6
@S Turner
LW2: It's obvious the boyfriend is taking credit for paying for the "experience" which is what is offensive to the guest.
A question is whether the guests brought gifts and are now expected to pay for their meal in addition. And how many brought plus ones.
6
The images people choose to use as wallpaper on their phones are their business. But I wonder whether the “girlfriend” is a second wife in all but name. If she is, then it might not be the photo per se that she objects to, but the indication that her partner has not fully committed to this current relationship. In other words, it may not not be jealously, but her interpreting that photo as a worrying sign, and wanting to be reassured.
I think it’s sweet that he wants to see his late wife’s face every day, but that’s me.
My husband’s phone wallpaper photo has always been of our dogs, never of me. For a long time he used a photo of himself, hugging one of our dogs, but the shot was mostly his face. A very flattering photo that I knew he liked. Horribly vain, and indicative of some things...but I let it go. You choose your battles.
I think Mr. Galanes may have misinterpreted the second letter. IMO, the snipe about the “experience guy” statement was the writer’s way of saying the guy was cheap — not in the gifts he gives his girlfriend, but in the way he managed to avoid the brunch bill. FWIW, if I were invited to a group birthday brunch, I would assume it was to be a shared bill, and would ask ahead of time whether I could bring my husband.
I have asked cell phone users to tone down their profanity-laced conversations. Sometimes they don’t even realized they were cussing!
4
When I ask a friend or friends to dinner at a restaurant I pay. Period. It was an invitation.
18
If the widower's girlfriend won't 'allow' him to retain happy memories from the past, I would have serious questions about a long-term relationship. If she's that controlling and possessive now, imagine what she might be after marriage. Yikes!
Re the brunch: i'd chalk this up to 'experience,' pay my share, and never ever let this guy con me into such a position ever again. I assume the girlfriend knows that the crowd is underwriting her 'experience' gift? If not, I'd (cattily, I admit) find a way to let this be known to her. She needs to know what a grifter she's getting.
17
If I was the plus one and I could have isolated the "experience" boyfriend before departing the celebration, I would have let him know a heads up on the distribution of the tab will be required at his next "happening". Venmo me, baby. Venmo me now. Venmo me honey like you did last Saturday night. That sounds a Bonnie Raitt tune. Within the lines of this column I stay in touch with the array of electronic applications that are everyday for many and not anyway for me. Although passing someone a few of twenties might be frowned upon in these covid 19 days. Venmo. It's sanitary and it sanitizes human relationships.
3
Philip totally wrong about the lunch and his reading too much into the comment about the experiential gift.
The reason she mentioned the experiential gift is this guy made a point of it which means that he should be paying for it. If I was invited to that lunch I would have no expectation whatsoever to pay for it.

13
I also hate hearing people talk on their cells. However two things: do you feel the same when you hear two people talking. There is something oddly annoying about hearing one person on their phone. And two, my husband raises his voice when on his cell. I constantly prompt him to lessen his voice. Just saying...
4
After reading the comments here, I think the mistake the “experience guy” made was in the wording of the invitation. I’d love to know what that group text said. Did he start what he was hosting the brunch? Or was it more of a “let’s get together to celebrate” kind of invitation?
5
Brunch -totally disagree. 1. You are assuming the writer is dissing “experiential” gifts just based on her wording. I think you are reading criticism into her words that you don’t know were intended. You have a tendency to do that often, imputing negative motives to your writers then basing your answers on your assumptions. 2. No way she should pay for brunch. The guy is a jerk. Thank you for reading.
10
How was the brunch invite expressed? LW makes it sound as if he phrased the invite with the others as his guests. If so, he was in the wrong. If he was not the host, why was he controlling what and how much food was being ordered? That would make me think he was hosting. I think PG response that the LW is mostly critical of the fact that he likes experiences instead of material goods is mind reading. LW should pay their way and lesson learned: never assume anything about "invitations." Inviting others to spend their money on your terms is sadly common.
7
@Alex
LW should not pay. Let the boyfriend hope in vain that he will get off the hook for the cost of his party.
3
I think the brunch expensive is one all adults ending up having.
Getting invited somewhere to either be treated or share the expenses only to find you’re not treated or it’s not equal.
We were a very young couple invited to my husband’s uncles boat club. It’s was not a fancy one at all, more of a dive place but fun to gather at.
Everyone but us was drinking like fish. I drank coke and my husband had one beer. After awhile his uncle announces we’re splitting the bill.
I paid for what we drank and ate. And the uncle got really frosted.
I told he we drank $5 worth and I wasn’t paying any additional $30 or more dollars when we didn’t drink. He didn’t like it but he backed off.
So lessen learned.
21
A framed picture or two of your late spouse in your home and occasional mention of things you did with your spouse or what she was like - these things are just fine, and any new partner should respect them. As wallpaper on your phone? Never. Every time the phone rings or it's opened, up pops the late spouse. That's just creepy. Wanting the wallpaper changed is completely reasonable.
Who wants the late spouse showing up on the dining table when you are out on a date, or on the bedside table when you are making love? This is not respectful remembering, it is shoving the late spouse in the new partner's face.
15
@Rolo, it is in no way creepy to want to keep your late spouse’s photo on your phone. It shows that the man treasured his wife, which is a beautiful thing. Now, if the man kept up a wallpaper photo of an ex-girlfriend, while in a committed relationship of two years, that would be creepy. Or if the photo was of an ex-wife...super creepy.
9
My dear friend’s adult daughter invites people to her own birthday at very expensive, trendy restaurants and then expects the guests to pay. I learned this the first time I was invited and found this behavior extremely crass and off putting. I paid my share and now don’t accept any ‘invitations’ from her.
26
@GK, I think that is a very different situation to the one described here, but I agree that it is crass behavior. In this situation, the boyfriend invited friends to gather at a restaurant, to celebrate another person’s birthday. To my mind, that implies that the bill will be shared.
7
My husband's first wife died. They had a beautiful marriage and he adored her. A person never stops grieving completly and I made sure that he understood her pictures and his memories of her are always welcomed in our marriage. His love for her is what made me realize what a truly special man he is. We've been married over 30 years. Love is not like a pie that once all the slices are gone nothing is left. His love for me is different than the love he had for his first wife but I feel just as loved and important. Any person who finds they are jealous of a deceased spouse should probably not begin a relationship with that person. It's not fair to ask someone to deny and surpress such an important part of their history.
71
My wife and I each have a picture of our now dead but well loved dog as the wallpaper photo on our phones. I am sure, that regardless of which one of us dies first, the picture of the dog will stay on the survivor's phone.
13
RE: Letter # 1
I was in my early 40's when I became a widow. I didn't remove any pictures because they gave me comfort. Some two years later I met a very nice, bright, funny gentleman. The first time he came to my house, I found him in front of the refrigerator looking at family photos. I asked him what he was doing and he said he was just letting my husband know that he would never hurt me. I knew I was in safe hands and could share the past while I look towards the future. I wish the same for Bill.
76
Best story ever. Thank you.
15
LW #1 should not remove the picture of his late wife from his phone, he should restore some photos of her to his house, and then discuss with his new girlfriend just why he’s doing it: it’s not because he doesn’t value his current relationship, but because he’s honoring his past one. He was married to this woman, she wasn’t some fling. If the girlfriend can’t or won’t understand that, then this relationship isn’t going to work, and it’s not because this man has some pictures of his late wife around, it’s because the girlfriend is narcissistic and insecure and with people like that, nothing you do is ever enough. You could take down every picture you own, and they’ll still have a problem and think you don’t love them enough.
For those in this comments section who are suggesting that the girlfriend’s lack of understanding stems from the fact that she might have never been married and, therefore, never widowed, allow me to disagree. As an unmarried woman, I would never ask someone I was dating to remove pictures of his late wife from his home and phone if he happened to be a widower. In fact, it would never occur to me to do so. Why would I ask someone I cared about to erase a part of their life for me? I wouldn’t do it for a man and I wouldn’t expect one to do it for me. A lack of marriage is not the girlfriend’s problem: her insecurity, insensitivity, and juvenile behavior are and, if she was indeed never married, that may be why. Who wants to sign up for a lifetime of that?
34
LW #1: Think about how you might feel if the situations were reversed and you observed a screensaver photo of your new girlfriend's deceased husband on her cell phone.
LW #2: It is always a good idea to inquire upfront what the financial arrangements are. Likewise, it is good form on the part of the "host" to make it clear that the guests are expected to divvy up the check and to pay for the birthday girl. That way, there are no surprises when the checks
arrives.
LW #3: Life would be pretty boring if we confine our friendships to those who share our political ideology, agree to disagree and avoid political discussions henceforth.
LW #4: Agree that sometimes people speak too loudly and that their volume is disturbing but I avoid shushing others in public places. In a restaurant, perhaps you can ask the Maitre d' to change your table or request a quiet table when making your reservation.
7
@Rosemary
It is NEVER acceptable to speak on a cell phone in a restaurant. If a call is important, excuse yourself and take it outside or to a hallway where no one can hear you. It should not be necessary for others to change tables. Ask the person on the phone to take it elsewhere, or ask the manager to ask them to do it.
15
@Rosemary
I routinely shush people at concerts, and when people are talking to each other at a lecture I tell them I came to hear the lecture, not them.
4
@Rolo
Never? Are you suggesting this for your own table, or even for everyone else in the restaurant? How is that any of your business?
1
I was widowed very young, twelve years ago. Something I and all the widows from my support group will attest to: If your new partner can’t accept and honor your late partner, move on. They don’t have the inner strength it takes and it won’t end well. You shouldn’t have to hide such an important part of who you were and are. Wishing you peace.
49
In regard to the birthday party, I am stunned. Who would invite anyone to a birthday party and not assume the costs? Much different from a few friends coming together to make a birthday party and decide on the menu.
Then we have the plus one, also exceptional rude. Why not ask immediately can I bring my husband?
I must confess that I am a much older woman and maybe the social rules have changed but I believe what I stated is basically true and would avoid etiquette problems.
33
An invitation is expenses covered, “can we all get together for brunch” implies it’s a fun event at your own expense.
Manners are about making people feel comfortable. He was in the wrong, the well mannered response was to pay up (and quietly resent him)
19
Loud Phone Talkers: Many very expensive smart phones have dreadful sound quality so maybe part of the problem is that people just can't hear each other. But there is still an obnoxious subset of people who also do it as a self centered attention grab. What I hate is the supertrivial nature of these involuntarily overheard loud conversations. If it was actually interesting I might enjoy eavesdropping a little.
12
@Gabby K A technical note: Speaking louder into one's phone doesn't make one more "hearable" on the other end.
8
I frequently gesture with my hand or quietly ask people screaming in their phones near me to please take it down a notch. Alas, there no sense of public/private space now.
1
@David Nordheimer
True, but it doesn't stop them trying!
3
The guests were invited to a surprise party. It was wrong and rude of the boyfriend to ask them to pay after the fact - especially since he ordered a feast without consulting them about their dietary preferences or budgets. The guests should breezily respond “Oh, since you invited us to the party, we assumed you were the host. Thanks for a fun time!” Then don’t send a penny. You already (presumably) got your friend a gift.
59
Totally agree
Phillip is wrong on this one
She’s not being snarky about the experiential gift, she’s irritated he’s taking credit for an experience she just found out she’s supposed to help pay for!
58
@Kiki B Who was ordering all that food? If it was the boyfriend, he definitely should be paying. If not, each person should figure out what they had and pay for that - AT THE TIME. Don't let the boyfriend 'bill you later' - that's a recipe for disaster. Get the check and figure it out at the restaurant.
29
@M.K. Ward
The "bill" should be ignored. It's too much like surprise hospital billing.
3
re cell phones
public space is not the place for private conversations
the speaker phone version is insane ....
17
Regarding LW1: I believe the Widower was a little hard on himself as he went about trying to please his girlfriend. His deceased wife was an important part of his life for a long time. He should not try to erase those memories, and, in any event, would not be able to do so. By removing pictures and “consciously not speaking of her”, the Widower does a disservice to himself - and to his girlfriend - as he will only end up resenting her for this. This is different than living in and obsessing about the past. And it is also different than keeping pictures of a past partner who is still alive, and/or making her a topic of conversation with the new girlfriend. The Widower should discuss this matter with his girlfriend frankly. However, I do agree with Mr. Galanes that the desktop picture could be a bit jarring, more of an “in your face” repetitive effect than a few still shots or perhaps some photo albums would be.
11
Funny thing about that brunch. Many many years ago a friend decided that her smart, interesting friends would enjoy meeting each other. I assumed that she would have a party, but instead she sent handwritten invitations (around and around a large circle of paper in different colors of ink) to lunch at a restaurant in a hotel. Kind of stiff, but OK.
About a dozen attended and had a reasonable time, although a large round table is far less conducive to meeting new people than a living room would have been. Still, it was OK.
I well recall the shock on everyone's face when the "hostess" announced how much each person owed. I can still see one woman anxiously rummaging around in her bag for cash she hadn't brought.
It may seem like a small thing, and in the scheme of things it certainly is, but that was a social gaffe of major proportions. It ruined the whole thing, which wasn't so great to begin with. When one must pay, one brings money, and one has the option of declining. An invitation is an invitation.
I never saw any of those women again except the original friend, but I never forgot it.
90
@GreaterMetropolitanArea, are you including yourself among those “smart, interesting friends”? Because your excessively critical language does not support any of that. Not even the friendship part.
Why should he have to do this? Why is erasing his past and the tragedy he endured needed to satisfy her sensitivities? It sounds, without knowing more, that she is being totally selfish and insensitive to his loss. It seems he is still vulnerable and she is taking advantage of it to satisfy her narcissistic demands.
Many women need to stop thinking everything revolves around them and men must shut up and step in line or just plain roll over. Otherwise the resentment will only grow.
12
@Chris M
i was with you until you started painting my gender with a very big uniform brush
55
@Chris M "Many women"? | And one would think the projected resentment was yours.
11
@Chris M In my experience, men tend to do this more than women. Obviously though, your resentment has already grown.
9
STEPH's letter reminded me of a letter reproduced in "Amy Vanderbilt's Book of Everyday Etiquette" where a couple moved into a neighborhood, invited all the neighbors over for lunch, and then asked them to pay $25 each (this was in the 1950s - more than what one would pay in a fancy restaurant).
The ROTFL punchline from the letter writer, one of the aggrieved guests: "Was this good etiquette?" (Ms. Vanderbilt very sensibly pointed out that none of the guests was under any obligation to pay a dime, and the couple's behavior seemed designed to make enemies of their neighbors.)
26
@PMN Amy Vanderbilt's speaking about neighbors hosting a brunch at (I assume) their home. Asking guests to pay for a meal at your home is insanely rude.
However, STEPH is speaking about being invited to a brunch at (I assume) a restaurant, which is incredibly normal in NYC. It is also normal to expect to pay for your share at a restaurant unless stated otherwise. The boyfriend who invited her didn't do anything wrong, Steph just seems mad that she had to pay.
6
I disagree. If you’re invited to a surprise brunch whether in a house or at a restaurant, why would there be any expectation that you’re paying? He ordered all the food too. If you expect people to pay their own way you make that clear.
19
@J, I agree that the shared payment should have been assumed. When my friends extend an invitation to meet at a restaurant, if they intend to pay for it they say, “My treat.”
4
Not long ago I was working out on a cardio machine at my gym, listening to either music or a podcast. I kept hearing someone yelling loudly as part of a conversation. I looked down the row and about 3 machines away a guy was facetiming with someone, so he kept leaning forward toward the phone which was in front of him on the machine and shouting. This kept up for about 5 minutes so I got off my machine and asked if he could lower his voice. He said "his son was having a meltdown" so I said "go to the locker room then". He said this is a public space!! I said no, it's a club with members. I was about to say "well, I'll talk to someone on the staff" but he got off the phone and left. I rarely challenge people like this and had no idea how he would react. How nice you can yell at your son and get your work out in!
37
Emily Yoffe wrote an excellent piece awhile back about marrying a widower. In a nutshell, she invited any and all memories of her husband’s deceased wife - photos, anecdotes, whatever. She loves her husband and honors that important part of himself and honors the impact that the first wife had on the man she feels fortunate to have married. If the letter writer’s girlfriend feels threatened, it doesn’t bode well for the relationship.
58
@TG I remember that article. Here it is https://slate.com/human-interest/2009/06/my-husbands-other-wife-she-died-so-i-could-find-the-man-i-love.html
I am a widow (7 years) dating a widower ( 10 years).
My first thought after reading the first letter is that he is a widower but she is either divorced or never married.
I found that those who have been widowed love to talk about their late spouses and fun times. Those who are divorced rarely mention their ex-spouse.
If both partners are widows, usually each can talk about their late spouses without anyone getting a chip on their shoulder about it. Widows get it! We want to talk about our lives and happy memories. We have both experienced grief and been broken in a particular way.
If only one is widowed, I think the other partner often gets resentful if you talk happily about the past or the pain of your loss. Despite trying with all their might, non-widows may not completely get the widow thing.
I think LW1 should keep the picture and try to open up about his wife, family, past and feelings, while expressing his love for his GF. If she can’t handle it, they are likely incompatible, based on different life experiences.
54
In time span, I felt much in common with the widower of 5 yrs. who started dating a woman 2 yrs. ago. I was widowed 5 1/2 yrs. ago and started dating a widower nearly 3 yrs. ago whose wife had died 6 months earlier. Happily, we do not share the suffocating circumstances he chose to acquiesce to. As we forge our own way, we speak of our spouses, less over time but freely when we feel the need to; socialize with friends and relatives of our spouses plus others; utilize tools and other items from our marriages; etc. Our spouses’ cremains sit next to each other on the fireplace hearth in urns, my husband in a ceramic he’d made in the 70’s, she in pottery made by a friend of theirs c. 20 yrs. ago. Several times my partner has asked if I’d like him to change the wallpaper on his computer: They sit at their off-the-grid abode on a beach in Mexico c. 30 yrs. ago. It always strikes me a strange request. I love seeing them together. They were together 43 years, my husband and I 33 yrs. None of us had children (I have step-children in their 50’s). I wonder if the letter-writer’s girlfriend had ever been happily partnered or married. The letter-writer didn’t mentioned anything about her past.
35
LW 1 - Enjoy your current relationship as long as you wish, but I hope you find a person to love who not only is not threatened by photos of your late wife but encourages you to keep honoring that relationship in whatever way is most meaningful to you.
38
@AnythingbuttheBackground
Maybe out of sensitivity to her you should just put that last photo somwhere else where only you can see it each day. You have to consider the sting for her to feel in competition with someone knowing that is unchangable. Being in a relationship with a widower involves certain terms which the new partner may not fully understand or have bargained for.
For myself, it took fully 10 years before my commitment to my new relationship was really 100%. I had to conspicuously put extra energy into it in order to compensate for that particular white elephant. You lost perhaps the love of your life expecting there would never be another. Somehow you need to get your new partner to understand that you need to be genuine to yourself first. It's not fair to the new partner but that is the situation you both are in.
The problem is this actually goes beyond the process of grieving because it challenges the fundamental ideas we keep about love and loyalty. I know I felt a huge amount of guilt just being with someone else. No matter when it happened it was going to be too soon. But I also made a commitment not to live in the past or to brood over something that could never be. It did cost us some of the joy we should have been able to have in the beginning. We're at 14 years now and I can now say without feeling disloyal that it is the best I've ever had.
12
I don't really see what business it is of the new GF what picture LW1 has on his phone. As long as he is not asking her to have it on her phone, why does she care?
30
@Laura I'm with you. How does she even see it? I have no idea what's om my spouses phone.
10
5 years is not a long time and anyone who knows what love is would understand that, as well as your keeping a little corner of your heart for someone who was a big part of your life. How anyone could be jealous of the dead is beyond me. The past can't and shouldn't be erased, especially by someone claiming to love you. She should be content with the sensitivity you've already shown her and be happy with finding love with you. She's not showing you equal sensitivity and she should be happy with the present. If she concentrates on where you both are now, you'll both move forward together.
44
When people bellow and shriek their phone conversations so everyone around them is forced to listen, I have few reservations about adding in my two cents worth.
Her boyfriend is cheating on her? I lean in close and shout “Lose the jerk – you can do better!”
The kids are disrespectful brats? “Let 'em do their own laundry! Stop enabling the little turds!”
Overcharged on a project? “Tell 'em you're calling your lawyer!”
Community advice and ad hoc interjections from strangers brought into the conversation by the original participant's volume and lack of discretion are bound to produce at least a few gems of wisdom.
You want privacy? Then extend it to everyone around you and dial down the conversational volume.
84
@Kris Aaron What's worse for me are the people who play videos on their cellphones in coffee shops and restaurants without headphones, inflicting the soundtrack on everyone around them.
33
To be jealous of a dead woman is ridiculous. The first letter writer's girlfriend must be extremely insecure. She will never be successful in removing the widower's deceased wife from his life. Whether there are photos or not, she is a part of him. How cruel and insensitive and selfish people can be. Allow the man to grieve however he wants for as long as he needs to. My advice is for the widower to find a more understanding, empathetic and patient new girlfriend.
66
Honestly, reading these letters makes me glad I am not a social being. Any woman of the age the widower would be seeing should get over herself. Is she so insecure that she is threatened by a deceased woman with whom he shared so much of his life? As for the classless boyfriend who evidently does not understand etiquette, the next time there is a celebration, send him a book by Miss Manners. For the political issues - it is now clear that politics can no longer be discussed due to incivility and the culture wars. As for obnoxious people who intrude on your aural privacy, I wish cell phone jammers were legal since people no longer appreciate privacy and discretion. I carry ear plugs for those moments.
27
You are wrong about the brunch He invited people, that means he is paying As for her husband coming along, we don’t know how the invitation was worded so we cannot comment Tacky tacky tacky If I were the girlfriend I would be embarrassed
147
Are you this excellent in real life, Philip Galanes -- or do you just shine in advice columns?
58
I’m aghast at the boyfriend not mentioning the bill would be shared by the invitees. I’m also aghast this woman bright her boyfriend when no mention was made that he too had been invited. She has to pay, definitely should pay for boyfriend, but, what a bummer ending to a joyous occasion.
40
A picture of his late wife in his private space, a den, a workroom, or such would satisfy both of them, maybe?
4
@Nanny goat I think the current girlfriend will not be satisfied until they are all in the garbage.
21
@Nanny goat, when my widowed mother married a widower — late in life — they agreed to have almost no family photos displayed in their home. They both had large families and thought it best to avoid the competition for space (and potential flood of images). So I think they each had one posed group photo of kids and grandkids displayed. Everyone does it differently, but the main thing is that both parties agree on the policy.
Millennials split restaurant tabs! I am also 31 and would never go to a group gathering and expect not to pay.
39
The problem here is "the food kept coming." If you have no control over the order but are still expected to chip in, you are being used.
Don't even try to make this a generational issue. This is a fairness issue.
162
@Stephanie Yeah... The boyfriend definitely should have told the guests ahead of time how much it would cost, since he did not plan to give them any control over it. But it's kind of crazy to me that the LW would just assume that he intended to pay. I think it's less a generational thing and more of a socioeconomic status thing. I and my friends do not have hundreds of dollars to spend on paying for our whole group's brunch bill, so we would never expect each other to do so regardless of the occasion or who's idea it was.
This sounds like something that only someone who could perfectly well afford to pay for their own brunch and then some would complain about, to be honest.
16
@Stephanie
I'm not a millenial (baby gen x-er, here), but I always expect to split the check at a group outing. it's a habit i got into as a young adult. sometimes i'm pleasantly surprised when someone claims the whole check, but i never expect it.
you millennials haven't invented every social behavior.
26
Are you really going to forget your late wife if you don't see her picture multiple times a day? Keeping a picture on a phone (assuming it's used regularly) seems on par with a picture of her over your bed. I agree with your current girlfriend.
21
@Shelly
And your experience w/ grief over the death of a beloved spouse is?
24
@DMZ,
Clearly that experience is non-existent.
6
@NYC Traveler and DMZ: why jump on Shelley, and why does she need direct experience to chime in here? I'm with her, and with the gf. I have direct experience with this. I met my (now) husband 20 years ago, he was a widower in his late 40's. We talked a lot about his situation at the beginning of our relationship, and kept the photos in boxes throughout our marriage. The writer above is dating someone for 2 years and his former wife's photo is still on his PHONE??? You may say the gf is being selfish and I agree if she won't tolerate one single photo mixed in with the rest of his family in the den somewhere. But on the phone is unacceptable in this two year relationship - and assuming they are sleeping together, it's a direct slap in the gf's face. This guy is either an ignorant, mannerless boor, or he is sending a clear signal to the gf that she will NEVER measure up, and she will never have any kind of intimacy with him. No wonder she is touchy about this subject. This guy is being manipulative - poor me, I took all of the photos away and I don't talk about it, but I still want to stare at my dead wife's photo on my phone every time it lights up 15 times a day, and my gf does not seem to be okay with this. Really dude? Listen, If she cannot handle an occasional mention, or a conversation with old friends in which the wife comes up, by all means dump her, as she is being unreasonable. But the phone? Dealbreaker, and cruel.
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I think you’re wrong on brunch. The key line here is: “When we arrived, the food kept coming. It was more than I needed, but it was delicious.” The boyfriend ran up an expensive tab without consulting with his “guests”—then presented them with the bill. I don’t mind buying my own meal if I can choose something that fits my budget.
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@KELLY I agree! From the description of the situation, the boyfriend had ordered for everyone without consulting. A little communication goes a long way in cases like these!
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@KELLY
I agree, and I planning on writing a comment on the "kept coming" point.
BUT.... (and I wish letter writers or columnists and their editors did a better job of context inclusion)
...if this was a buffet brunch, priced per-person, "the food kept coming" means something else entirely when it comes to ordering.
To turn the tables, not mentioning the context of the plus-ones (how many and all without notice) puts the burden back on the letter writer to accept the bigger share of blame.
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I can even imagine having attended as a guest prepared to split the bill and still being surprised when asked to split the bill by the time the event described here ended.
In addition to control of the menu, I find the host gives the sense that the brunch is the birthday gift. He is going on about being the experience guy.
If the brunch with friends was his gift, he should have paid for the entire experience or have made some financial contribution of his own that made the event possible and/or differentiated that meal from other occasions with friends besides being a surprise. If not, he’s achieved creating a celebration — a birthday party — but not a “gift” so much.
Yes, I see why the writer was indeed surprised by the ask.
27
To the widower:
You have been extremely considerate to your new love, but consideration is a two way street. You have every right to hold onto a sentimental image.
Because your wife was abruptly taken from you, this is not a situation in which you can reasonably be expected to emotionally sever yourself from that relationship.
Your current love should be able to understand and respect that your deceased wife will always be significant to you. And if she can’t, she probably has serious jealousy and control issues which will keep manifesting.
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I have a friend who lost her husband to cancer. She has since reconnected with an old college friend who also lost his wife to cancer. What amazed me the most was how easily she and her new love talk about their past marriages. I found it delightful and enlightening and if I ever find someone to replace my husband I’m determined to do the same. Jealousy is very unbecoming.
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LW3:
This sounds like a pretty trivial argument. Is it possible that things escalated because of any language used, such as saying ‘That’s a dumb idea‘? Sometimes the way we say things goes further than what we’re actually saying.
In any case, I would not give up on the relationship just like that. Reach out to the friend, just ask how they were and if they would like to get together. I would not even mention the fight unless they bring it up. Who knows, maybe the friend is hoping there’s a way to move on and feeling unsure how to proceed.
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I appreciate your sensitivity, paired with a good kick in the tuchus when necessary. Having said that, I don’t agree that the widower should change the wallpaper on his phone. Why is she looking at his phone, anyway? The polite thing to do when someone is on their phone is to look away (for us oldsters, at least). I do think revisiting his “cold turkey” stance is a good idea, though.
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I have to disagree strongly with the response to "I owe you nothing". Inviting people to dine, then letting them know after they have eaten that they will be billed for the meal is inexcusable. You have to include that information in the invitation. The "guests" were obviously not consulted about the menu, and his protestations that he's "not into buying material things" translates into "I want you to pay for my gift to my girlfriend."
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@Frank O Totally
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@Frank O You nailed it!
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For the "surprise" party (the surprise was on you, obviously) I think I might have just responded thanks for your gracious invitation and left. Let the boyfriend figure out how to try to collect after the fact. This, however, would no doubt lead to the end of your friendship with the birthday girl.
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@Katy
You assume that the boyfriend intends to tell the birthday girl that he expected her friends to pay for her birthday experience that was his gift to her and his contribution was the pancakes in bed.
It's one thing to pay for an experience instead of a bouquet of flowers or a piece of jewelry. It's another thing to pay for nothing and take credit for tricking others into paying for the experience.
5
Was this brunch at a restaurant? If so, the host should have absolutely made it clear that the event (over which he retained total control of the menu and costs) was going to be payed for by the guests. His behavior was entitled, presumptuous, clueless and rude. Doubly so if you brought a gift for the birthday girl. You were expected to subsidize, without warning, the boyfriend's experience. But you'll likely alienate your friend and her boyfriend if you point this out. Better to pay your assessed share and never accept another invitation from this person without finding out in advance who is expected to foot the bill. If this event was in the host's home, you can add "cheap" to my critique of the host, but my advice remains the same.
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@Robert Wright
I agree. The BF wanted credit for organising the Bday party but not really the onus of paying for it, which is the only hassle he had with the party being held in a restaurant. In other words it was a gift (experience) for which he made others pay!
I would pay up this time, admit I was conned into it. I would also inform the BF- next time he invites me for brunch and expects me to pay, I would appreciate making my own menu choices. If he throws a party and decides the menu for everyone, it generally means he is paying for all of it.
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@raine
Personally, I would not pay for the experience and wait for the BF to complain to the birthday girl that her friends stiffed him on the experience he planned for her and expected them to fund.
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For the brunch letter :
I don't understand why you made such a big deal about the writer's mention of "experience" as if she were being critical of the guy. You criticized her twice for it.
I think what she was emphasizing with the quotes was that he had made a point that he liked to GIVE experiences. And if the experience of the brunch was his GIFT to her, then it was up to him to pay for it. Unless otherwise contracted at the time of the invitation.
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@VPM I read the same judgment of the guy that Philip did. But the "experience" the boyfriend was providing was a surprise party for his girlfriend's birthday, not for the other guests (and certainly not for randos that the invited guests brought). We all agree that the boyfriend should have been clear about payment. But are you honestly saying that he's supposed to provide an "experience" for the letter writer's husband, too?
7
@VPM I think she was trying to point out that the boyfriend doesn't like to spend money.
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On this point, the attendance of 1 guests, we see more evidence that the host is a little behind in event planning and invitations.
If he’d been up to speed he’d have thought this through. If you are clear in the invitation, then people know and that goes for how to treat the 1. You have to do a little planning for parties to match your budget to costs and invitations.
Personally, I think he rather muddled the difference between throwing a party and getting a gift of an experience. ... and reflecting, I’m pretty sure I’ve been this girlfriend!
Thanks for not saying anything to me for the oversight at the time friends!
1
A few pictures around his house is absolutely fine, especially if they had children. Indeed, there probably should be pictures.
I'm a bit concerned about his not feeling comfortable about talking about his wife with his new girlfriend. All of that, their life and then her death, were important to him. I wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't speak to me about important parts of his life. As for the cellphone picture? That would be a deal breaker for me. A little morbid, and too much.
33
I am a widow and would like to respond to Bill. I have dated a number of men and some feel as though they are in competition with my late husband. That is their problem, not mine. My son still lives with me and is the spitting image of my husband. I can't change that. Nor will I pretend my husband didn't live. I have pictures in my home and they will remain. For men who have an issue with that, they are clearly not the man for me. I cannot change what happened to me or my family. I embrace it. For men who feel threatened, find a different girlfriend. I am unwilling to sacrifice who I am to alleviate someone else's insecurity.
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@Max T
Exactly. Brava!
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@Max T
You sound like a confident, level headed person with solid priorities. Anyone would be lucky to have you in their life.
28
Maybe it's just me, but if I were the new girlfriend I would not begrudge the photo on the cell phone. Bill states that he has removed other "evidence" and never speaks of his late wife. That seems above and beyond what many would do in the same circumstances. I have been on many dates where the talk was ALL about the former mate/partner. That was the deal breaker for me.
37
The cabinet composition story is likely a tale that occurs frequently there days across the country. We have somehow decided that one's political or candidate preferences (often based on a real mix of issues and concerns) precisely mirror one's moral/character makeup and, if not precisely in line with one's one, is more than ample grounds to cast aside any relationship. How very sad. Mind you, almost every case we're not talking about someone joining the Klan but having a different policy approach on the budget or the environment.
Too many people today have convinced themselves that they and their opinions are 100% correct in every possible way, and even hearing a different take in appalling and must not be tolerated. We collectively lose a lot from such thinking.
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@George S
Re “ We have somehow decided that one's political or candidate preferences . . . precisely mirror one's moral/character makeup.”
When the preference is for Trump, that conclusion is correct.
5
@George S
We might not be talking about someone joining the klan, but we probably are talking about someone with ugly world views. Someone who thinks rich people are blessed by God and shouldn't be criticized, or someone who thinks that "others" deserve anything bad that happens to them, or someone who is so vindictive they would cut off their nose to spite their face.
Too many Americans range from cruel to sadistic, and that won't change unless the rest of us stop putting up with it. Many views on policy do in fact reflect one's morals/character.
7
if the author of the letter assumed that the brunch was free.... why did she invite her husband and sister? did she assume that the friend's boyfriend will pay for them too? That's just so wrong on so many levels.
I meet with my group of friends frequently and unless someone specifically says that they are paying (sometimes at the end of the meal) we all assume it is a get together with friends for variety of reasons and we pay our share.
53
@mq LW didn't say anything about inviting her sister. She said she got a sitter for her kids. And the comparison with a social group like yours, that already has an established pattern for sharing costs, is irrelevant.
60
Re. the brunch bill:
It was tacky of this guy to send out an invitation and not mention his idea about payment. It was natural to assume that he was paying. But it’s also not worth it to turn it into a confrontation, either. A tiff with the boyfriend could easily become a tiff with your friend. The relationship is worth more than the cost of a meal.
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@NM I agree completely about the cost not being worth the chance of creating a conflict unless the cost would cause the writer of the letter financial stress. IMHO, it was callous of whoever sent out the invitation to not mention that the attendees have to pay their own way. If the boyfriend threw a party, would it be OK for him to put up and register at the door and ring up the guests as they leave?
36
@NM Is it?
LW1: I'd move the cellphone pic to another place where it can still be seen when he needs to see it. And I'd sit down with the new relationship person and talk openly about missing your late wife and that you've now moved on, but can't just "forget" those other years.
LW2: the guy who invited people to brunch for his girlfriend and didn't make it clear they were to pay for their meals was in the wrong. That he talked in a "woke" way about "experiential" gifts is annoying but not the same issue. The issue is he invited people under false premises, since I assume from letter the fact that he wasn't paying was not made clear.
LW3: no, you can't really tell people how to behave in public spaces (unless they're abusing kids/ pets or breaking laws).
38
@RLiss
Of course you can tell people how to behave in public spaces.
People can act selfishly, rudely, obnoxiously, etc. both indoors and out. There are appropriate standards of behavior for all sorts of situations, in public or private spaces.
If someone is shouting into their phone, whether on a bus or at the bus stop, you are within your rights to ask them to speak more quietly.
35
@RLiss What about the doctor's waiting room. I've seen people discuss relationships with friends in a very loud voice. I've seen people watching videos with the sound on and no ear buds. I've seen kids do it also, and not quietly. Do we all really have to listen to intimate problems and others' choices of entertainment, especially at loud volume? I tend to give children more of a pass than the adults, although there's always an adult with the children. But for the adults at least, there is no excuse, it is incredibly rude.
30
My husband of 25 years was previously married for 12 years to his college sweetheart. Although they divorced, they had a generally happy marriage and a long history together. He has pictures of them together, one displayed in his home office. Friends ask if this bothers me but, why should it? She was an important part of his life for so long and I have no reason to doubt his devotion to our marriage. I can’t ask him to just forget those 12 years. Your advice to Bill was spot on. If the new love can’t understand Bill’s need to grieve (but maybe not with cellphone wallpaper pic),he should find a more empathetic love.
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I disagree with your response about brunch, but at the same time, the guests should have seen it coming. I think the point of saying the boyfriend is an "experience guy" is to validate the idea that he wanted to give his girlfriend an experience (brunch) rather than a material gift. He wants to look like a generous guy but he wants others to pay. Hmmm.
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