I applaud the verdict from what I've read during the trial. However, the court of public opinion should never rule over the justice system.
2
To the extent the convictions were intended by the jurors to represent a validation of #MeToo, Weinstein's argument of prejudice in the proceeding is exactly correct.
The jurors were empaneled to consider the fact set, were sworn to do justice, and were charged to conduct themselves without bias. They were not offered starring roles in the kabuki theater that #MeToo has morphed into.
1
Unfortunately, as I live in Arizona I receive the show in delay and therefore do not have the option to participate in comments on the show. I would very much have liked to do so today and I would have liked to draw attention to the irony of the day, a guilty verdict on one end of the country and a world wide memorial on the other end of the country honoring a man who “got away with it” via a big payoff and an NDA simply because he was rich and famous and posses a special skill of being able to throw a basketball through a hoop. How representative of today’s USA.
2
In today's atmosphere any other outcome would have been seen as the idiocy of the jurors or something like that. The court of public opinion had a verdict on this long ago.
The evidence has always been shaky, hear-say (unavoidable in cases as this), and it is clear that a fair part of what happened was consensual, tit-for-tat as far as the direct accusers were concerned.
His time will almost certainly be reduced on appeal, if not scrapped, as it does not depend so much on law and evidence but rather on the sentiment of the public, which probably reached its apex now.
3
If this headline is true, we need to ask why Donald Trump is able to fly above the rest of humanity unscathed. There are countless women who have leveled the same kinds of charges against him, and more than a few who would be happy to testify regarding a pattern of abuse. Yet he remains untouched, quashing investigations, buying off witnesses and threatening retribution against all who dare to speak against him. Can this man defy gravity too?
1
In my opinion, Ms. Rotunno gives a bad name to women. I found her comment "Ms. Rotunno asserted that she had never been a victim of sexual assault because she had never put herself “in that position.”
How condescending and sanctimonious of her. Does she honestly feel that women knowingly put themselves in a situation to be raped? Really??!!
5
Whats next, our Beloved Leader, decides he'll appoint himself the 10 member of the Supreme Court?
Has our chief law officer, his Orangeness, decided on a sentence yet? Since he's out of the country, will Billy Barr weigh in? Is Harry's next move a tearful segment on FOX pleading for a pardon?
1
Jury conviction proves Weinstein is one of the sleaziest, sordid, immoral and vulgar people of all time. I mean to those who didn’t know that already. He can take his walker to prison. Money is coercive, but it’s hard to believe that freak wandered around Hollywood and preyed on young women unnoticed.
Makes me sick. Men can't get a fair trial anymore if a woman accuses them of rape. The woman will just be believed no matter what she's saying and they'll have the power to put men in prison whenever they want. I am not happy and I do not feel safe after this verdict.
@Jack
Awww poor jack. He's upset that women are treated as equal citizens. He's upset that alleged crimes against women are taken just as seriously as alleged crimes against men. He's upset that women's in-court testimony is given the same legal weight as a man's in-court testimony under the federal and state rules of criminal procedure.
It makes him scared because he's afraid that he'll have to face consequences for his terrible behavior now! When women are people, you can't just abuse and rape them!
Poor Jack is so scared that some random woman is going to come up to him and accuse him of rape and there won't be any procedures in place to protect him. He'll just be carted off to jail. Better not leave the house, Jack! Don't walk alone at night and definitely don't get drunk!
This rational fear is far, far worse than the silly, inane, baseless fears that women face every day when they are subject to the threat of sexual violence by men.
4
As one witness testified in rebutting the defense attorney’s attacks:
“I know it was complicated and difficult. But that doesn’t change the fact that he raped me.”
It is a relief to know this awful man is behind bars. I am positive the walker was theatrics - that was his forte.
Justice has been served.
4
I miss the film noirs of the 40’s and 50’s.
NYT has the depth to offer us a rigorous understanding of the appeal arguments available in this case. I would love to read such an analysis. I am concerned about whether an appellate judge or panel may find that allowing witnesses to testify about facts not directly related to the charges will be considered unfairly prejudicial. in this regard I wonder whether prosecutors would be able to call witnesses and present evidence of prior uncharged offenses for other types of criminal activity such as robberies.
1
I'm waiting for the evangelicals to forgive Weinstein. Far as I can tell he has not done anything Trump hasn't done.
7
As a survivor of sexual abuse I am so grateful to the women who went through the harrowing experience of testifying and reliving their trauma, and for having the courage to face prosecutors who would try to undermine their character and their story. And I am so grateful that the jury found Weinstein guilty. It validates all of us who feel that maybe what happened to us wasn't that bad, or maybe it was our fault, or who question whether it really was rape, assault or abuse. The guilty verdict validated that the perpetrator was wrong and we were not at fault. This is huge. So many victims have blamed themselves because this is what society has told us. Finally, that is no longer the case. Thank you to all who gave us this certainty.
13
The lesson of this trial is for the DA to file as many counts as there is evidence for.
Because a Conviction is a Conviction!
1
Almost any voice trying to convey the significance of seeing a serial abuser actually punished deserves an audience. I'd be more appreciative of the many testimonials if the speakers would acknowledge that the scope of the problem is orders of magnitude greater for severely under privileged women in every country in the world who are being raped as I type this text. For example, I believe that in the suburbs of North American cities trafficked women (especially from Asia) are distributed among hotels and apartments, held against their will by violence, and repeatedly raped under the label of prostitution. Their careers aren't being ruined; instead their very lives have been and continue to be destroyed. When will we be able to get them say It's about time!"
1
trump should be next to face his accusers in court.
10
While the likes of Franken, Weinstein, Moore, Lauer, O’Reilly, Rose, Schneiderman, Moonves and others get exposed with serious consequences, there by the grace of god goes this self-confessed [ahem] grabber in the WH scot free to wreak havoc on the nation like the way he hypocritically disparages declared victims of sexual assault. His gross hypocrisy is galling.
Epstein avoids justice by committing suicide. trump avoids justice by becoming US president.
5
@Townsend Why did you include Franken in the list? A comedian makes some silly jokes and gets obliterated.
1
HW conviction is a lesson for parents to keep in mind to educate or inform their young sons to conduct their sexual adventures with responsibility and seriousness. How they behave with women will dictate their legal consequences. The trial gave a 360º legal evolution to sexual abuses without consent. Thank you HW, it was long overdue.
For the sake of our justice system, I hope the jury delivered a verdict based on the facts at hand and not to make a statement on a “movement”. Both the accusers and the defendant deserve no less.
14
No matter how far a step forward advocates and historians see the H.W. case and conviction, as long as Unindicted Perpetrator Number One gets to tower on his boastful throne and roam free, women can not be free of their fear that more animals can await them. And to think D.J.T. brazenly pressed so hard against the (wrongly) convicted Central Park youths. Wilding is a real threat as long as we can not capture at the least the worst perps, of which our U.S. President reigns supreme.
2
“'I did it for all of us,' Dawn Dunning, who served as a supporting witness in the trial, said in an interview on Monday. 'I did it for the women who couldn’t testify. I couldn’t not do it.'”
Allowing supporting witnesses might be grounds for a new trial.
To borrow from the sage and philosopher Lawrence Peter Berra, "It ain't over until its over."
Harvey Weinstein has the wealth to file multiple appeals.
It ain't over.
4
This is a victory without doubt. I can't help think about the other huge sexual predation story of Jeffrey Epstein, and why his enabler and possible partner in sexual assault crimes, Ghislaine Maxell, is not even arrested, much less in jail.
8
@Nancy
There was an excellent 60 Minutes segment that suggested Epstein was murdered - with photos from the autopsy to explain why.
I think the likes of DJ and other big names like Derschowitz were implicated by Epstein. Epstein I believe was silenced.
I could be wrong, but the 60 Minutes segment definitely raised flags.
1
It is about time! I have lived into my 80s and not only was a victim of such behaviors but know many other women experiencing the same. Hopefully this will be the end of such intolerable behavior!
7
What a monumental shift in our justice system, finally giving justice to women sexaully preyed upon. Thanks goes out the courageous women who testified at the trial as it must have been very difficult and emotional to relive those events in a public arena. I hope the judge gives him the maximum sentence so that another powerful message can be sent to sexual predators. And Harvey you can ditch the walker now we have had enough of your charades.
5
The headline for #MeToo is the headstone for women in the workplace. No company can afford the economic risk of a sex abuse charge against a male employee. No insurer will write insurance for a corporation. Boards and risk managers will kill female workplace advancement in a work environment where males and females line up for advancement. Men win again. The court drama leads to the rule of unintended consequences that will be paid for by every working woman in the United States.
2
@LeonardBarnes
you and your toxic response protects rapists by scaring men who do not rape to be worried about prosecuting these cases fairly. Because of that, you become part of the problem
1
@LeonardBarnes
LOL oh please.
"No company can afford the economic risk of a sex abuse charge against a male employee."
Yeah because after 40 years of litigation under the Civil Rights Act there are no companies left and no one has insurance.
PS- no company that is as paranoid as you appear to be about sexual discrimination suits by lying, vicious, irrational, women (you apparently think we all are..) is going to be stupid enough to simply stop hiring women in response. Why? Because that approach can get you sued, too. You realize that, right? It's just a different type of gender discrimination--to prevent women from advancing because you fear they'll just start accusing men of sexual harassment?
Did you even think this through or did you just start panicking at the notion that men might have to take responsibility for their own behavior?
5
Having been a defendant in a civil suit related to my administrative job, I have great respect of lawyers. The plaintiff's lawyer vilified me in no certain terms, but my lawyer, the lead attorney was a woman, meticulously showed how the allegations were wrong. Unless you find yourself being sued, you never understand role of the defense attorney. Weinstein notwithstanding, our justice assumes you are innocent unless proven guilty. Rotundo had a job to do, a tough one given the enormity of the contextual conditions. She did it as best as she could. We should all applaud the judge and jury. The members of the jury are far better than partisan jury in the most recent trial in Washington a few weeks ago.
9
@Mr C agreed.............they did an amazing job.
2
In my opinion the MeToo Movement is just picking up steam, For ever these wealthy men of power and privilege, and their victims, the end could not have come too soon. It will be interesting to watch how HR department within organizations adapt, and evolve. For too long these offices have been held hostage to upper management and the prevailing culture. It is only by establishing these offices as independent will victims feel free coming forward without fear of reprisal or ridicule.
8
This reckoning is an example that gives an immense amount of substance to the phrase “justice delayed is justice denied.”
The years - decades, even - of silence, as hundreds of people refused to speak up about what they knew about this predator (shame on them!) - make this verdict of little value to the women he preyed on during all that time.
Until (1) women’s accusations of sexual violence are met with SWIFT, fast-tracked justice, and (2) the conspiracies of silence among those who know what the predators are doing are replaced by people “of conscience” who speak up, the predators will continue to get away with ruining women’s lives.
We need something on the order of a powerful, ACLU-like organization women (and those “in the know”) can reach out to, that will listen to them, ACT on what they say, and convict monsters quickly.
1
“In an interview with “The Daily,” Ms. Rotunno asserted that she had never been a victim of sexual assault because she had never put herself “in that position.” “ Really, Ms. Rotunno, you honestly believe that you have the power to always NOT be ‘in that position’? I grew up believing any woman who became a victim was responsible for what happened to her: she must have dressed provocatively or behaved inappropriately. And then it happens to you and that whole theory falls apart.
7
Am i the only one who feels like “OK, some justice served but this guy was an absolute monster”. Where are the thousands or hundreds of thousands of convictions of other, not famous men who assault and ruin the careers and lives of women?
Harvey’s conviction is a drop in the ocean of injustice.
8
I doubt the verdict stands. This case depends on a 2019 NYS law changing the statute of limitation from 5 years to 10 - 20 years, depending on the degree, for rape. The SCOTUS held in Stogner v. California (2003) that such extension of the statute of limitations, after the limitation period expired, violates the Ex Post Facto Clause of the US Constitution. I don't know if the charge from 2013 was filed by 2018 (within 5 years) or not, but the one from 2006 certainly wasn't. Of course this also applies to the NYS child victims act. All of those acts over 5 years old when the act was signed in 2019, violate the Ex Post Facto clause in my opinion based on Stogner v. California (2003). Of course, Weinstein did what he did as did those priests and scout masters. I'm not excusing them. But, Stogner v. California is the precedent case law unless someone knows of more recent precedent.
10
The Weinstein Company was responsible for some of the finest movies ever made. And now this is how the name will be remembered!
1
My thanks to Mr. Vance and staff, and to the women who bared their private lives, to bring this predator within the range of justice. Weinstein won't get what he deserves, but he has been exposed. Many now men will get the message: if a woman does not willingly consent, it is rape.
2
Susan Collins says let him go, he has learned his lesson.
19
Cyrus R. Vance Jr. had to redeem his name after letting the types of crimes described by #metoo victims languish. About time!
2
Weinstein with no doubt a disgusting predator and human being.
The article states that “the verdict provides hope that we can “have a criminal justice system that reflects the reality of sexual violence.” While Weinstein’s lawyer stated in her closing that the verdict and the #metoo movement “strips adult women of common sense, autonomy and responsibility.”
However, the women who accepted to exchange sex for “perks” should be equally held accountable.
They have deprived honest women from equal access to the same job opportunity.
Imagine if every women declined to exchange sex for perks, we will have for sure a better society.
Lastly, those who help cover up should held accountable and serve jail time.
12
Maybe now, women will give more thought to the careers they choose. Selling your good looks will attract unscrupulous men who will always take advantage when they can. If I ask you to my hotel room at 10:00 at night for an interview, use your head!
9
@Thoughtful Citizen
"If I ask you to my hotel room at 10:00 at night for an interview, use your head!"
Translation: I, a man, am going to continue to engage in appropriate, sexist, and coercive behavior. Be on the look out, ladies!!!
2
There are 330 million people in the U.S. today. Only 12 of them were on this jury!
2
It’s a start.
I hope accountability can shift to other areas and people - specifically Donald Trump.
I hope this is an omen.
4
Although I admire the work that Ms, Twohey and Ms. Kantor have done throughout their investigation of Weinstein, I would love to hear them explain their extraordinary statement that Elia Kazan was a victim of McCarthyism. Kazan enthusiastically testified before the House Unamerican Affairs Committee, naming names and helping to destroy careers. He defended that decision throughout the rest of his life.
Nor was he forced to be an informer in order to protect his livelihood. Although a refusal to testify would likely have scuttled his Hollywood career for an indefinite period, he could have returned to Broadway -- where he had been the top director before he went out West. There was never a blacklist on Broadway. Kazan's overweening ambition to make movies led him to inform on friends and colleagues. Being the most successful director on Broadway was not enough for him.
He was a victimizer, not a victim. Calling him the victim is an insult to the many, many Americans whose careers and, often, lives were ruined by the scourge of McCarthyism.
12
It is such a relief to finally see a some-what conclusion to this case. However, it is not completely satisfying. It is hard to comprehend how there were 90 victims accusing Weinstein for sexual assault, but he was only convicted on two sexual assault charges. Even when he is now truly convicted of these crimes, additional women are still pressing charges. The fact that one man was able to damage or send trauma to the lives of almost 100 women is extremely difficult to comprehend.
1
As Robert Caro noted of Johnson: "Power Reveals." The human issue is the human tendency to abuse power. Not all people in power abuse it, but many do.
In my life I have wondered why sociopaths rise to the top in organizations. Then on day I realized the simple truth: because they are willing to do what the rest of us will not do.
That abuse of power boggles the mind of most people and opens that small window for the sociopath to do whatever and get away with it.
Sociopaths almost always portray themselves ad the victim when caught presenting the world with a deer-in-the-headlights stare and the look of the victim.
The real problem is much deeper and broader than Weinstein or Hollywood - it is part of our humanity. Some people never develop empathy and place themselves forever in the spotlight/center of the universe.
There are more sociopaths out there who haven't been charged let alone convicted still dancing in their personal spotlight oblivious to the damage they cause and not caring at all.
11
@George N. Wells wow. You nailed it. Though I don’t think they are all oblivious.
2
I remain confused about this case. To me, Weinstein is a very unappealing man for whom I feel no reason to have any sympathy.
However, it is not at all clear the relationships were non-consensual. The women were all grown-ups (I think) in pursuit of careers. At each step, they had choices to make (I am not aware of anyone being physically forced by HW — but could have missed it as I have not delved into all the details of the case.)
If the women thought engaging in sexual relations with HW would advance their careers, wasn't that a choice? Couldn't they have decided otherwise? Importantly, did ALL women who achieved major roles in HW films have sexual relations with him as part of “the deal”? Or did talented actresses gain roles on merit even if they refused to engage in sexual relations? Are the plaintiffs women who thought having sex would enhance their careers and were later upset when the roles didn’t materialise as expected? I don’t know the answers to any of these questions.
Women need to take responsibilities for their actions and learn to say “no”, regardless of what they think they might achieve by saying “yes”. If we don’t like what the boss is proposing, we should seek work elsewhere, or continue to seek the same work but on our merits.
14
@LD He did physically force women. And they were generally at the beginning of their careers. Actors who were already box office names were in a better position. Early career women often don’t have agents or managers, much less a security detail.
7
Weinstein is a monster of epic proportions. He used his power and money to make himself above the law for a long time. Mr. Weinstein was a large Democratic donor who no doubt gained additional cover from being an influential donor. As far as takeaways from this trial, I disagree with the authors. At the outset it has to be acknowledged that it was extremely unlikely a jury was going to be seated that had not heard about the behaviors of Mr. Weinstein prior to hearing any evidence in court, the media as well as the MTM made sure of that. As a society we should be careful to celebrate convictions of even monsters when the jury is already contaminated before they are even sworn in. The prior bad acts law allow people to come forward many years after the statute of limitations has expired and allege that a crime was committed against them when it was never reported at that time, this antithetical to how the criminal justice system is suppose to work. A movement should not be allowed to subvert the criminal justice system. One can loathe Mr. Weinstein and we can all be content with the view that he got what he deserved, but what he got was most assuredly not a fair trial.
7
Thank you Megan Twohey and Jodi Kantor - you played a big role in this as well as Ronan Farrow. Courageous journalism!
66
@Ed Radford I hope journalism had nothing to do with the verdict. The decision of jurors should be a function of only what was presented in court.
@Gary the journalism brought these victims together and exposed Weinstein for the predator he was. The police were doing nothing. Vance protected these big name predators. Without Kantor, Twohey and Farrow and the courageous women who stepped forward for their articles there would be no case for a jury to decide.
7
@Ed Radford such as covering a war! courage to cover harvey!
Weinstein supporters (unless they're paid enablers) should consider that without him the #metoo movement would have never gone viral. He is responsible for (some) misogynistic, sexually predatory men who abuse their power and position finally being held to account.
That is the irony of the Weinstein supporter/apologists that claim he did nothing wrong and was framed - he's ruined it for them, as they are usually the type to behave the same way. And he's the reason that they now fear consequences for their own actions and attitudes.
7
There can be no doubt that the #MeToo era is now capable of much more than just getting big shots to lose their jobs or receive bad publicity. What started as a fashionable social media meme, now results in real accountability in a court of law.
5
Given that he was acquitted on the charges of predatory sexual conduct, my guess is the decision to admit that type of evidence is going to be found prejudicial on appeal.
He probably is going to prevail in the long run and force a new trial on the 2 felony counts of rape, but a least for a short period of time, he is going to pay a price for his conduct.
Good for Cyrus Vance for trusting the victims and holding this trial. And good for the victims for having the courage to speak out.
10
To me, this is a victory for journalism. Without the Times and New Yorker exposès on his disgusting pattern of rape and sexual assault, I don't think this conviction would have occurred. I am grateful to the journalists, editors, and everyone else at the publications who stuck to their guns and endured legal intimidation, intense pressure from all sides, and even spying (Hello, Black Cube) in order to break this story.
Of course they never could have done it without some incredibly brave and heroic survivors. Speaking out about sexual assault is hard enough without the terror Weinstein rained upon them to keep them silent. Thank you.
55
Sorry but the writers here should have done their fact checking. Elia Kazan was NOT a victim of McCarthyism. Kazan was one of the few people in Hollywood who named named at HUAC, thus causing the end of many people's careers. The fact that Weinstein is aligning himself with someone like Kazan, says it all.
19
@Elsie Dubrow
I used to think that too but there's another side to this story. Kazan said he revenged himself on the Moscow stooges in his theatre group who had unanimously condemned him at a Communist Party show trial years earlier for refusing to toe the party line. According to Kazan, they got what they deserved for the appalling way they had treated him.
Here is my feedback for Harvey Weinstein:
1) Methinks your subtext to “i am innocent. iI am innocent. i am innocent” is “But, I’m a powerful, wealthy, privileged, influential white male who has long gotten my way. You can’t get away with finding me guilty. You just wait and see what happens…”
2) “All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits” (Proverbs 16:2 KJV).
5
It doesn’t matter if men are movie moguls, musicians, financiers, politicians, sports stars (yes, like Kobe), at a certain level of wealth and fame they think women are perks of their jobs. Attention! Women are people, not perks.
145
@Jan
There is no doubt Weinstein was guilty of unwelcome sexual actions. He did not become that way instantaneously, however. He - a rather unattractive man - spent years with beautiful women throwing themselves at him in order to advance their Hollywood careers. They helped create him. Perhaps if some had the chutzpah to speak up, to press charges long ago, there would have been a halt to his actions, and to the actions of others.
29
@john Kobe's accuser was indeed a real, actual human. Not a fake. Her accusations were not fake. She agreed to settle out of court because his legal team dragged her through the mud in the course of following "due process", which was much more acceptable to do back then than it is is now. He apologized to her and acknowledged he thought the sex he was having with her was consensual. That's what saved his career and reputation.
38
@Chris
You got something all twisted up.
This is an old story and you have to stop blaming the victims, even a little. Yes, if they were more empowered they could have done more. Clearly this is a wake up call to the cultural fact of women’s disempowerment in the face of male criminal sexual behavior. At a certain point we have to accept what happens to women at face value. it is a combination of factors lead by shame, followed by lack of support in our justice system, and so on.
If most men were mostly reasonable or if most men were generally fair, or if most men were basically honest about their own misogyny and manipulation of women, (for example not fairly sharing chores and childcare, for example not supporting rape victims by mostly letting men get away with their crimes jail till they have left a trail of hundreds of victims, trying to not let women choose what to do with their own bodies, it is all designed to take ownership of women’s lives away from women), if not for a male dominated culture, women would have the power over our own bodies and careers and would not be subject to the bad behavior of abusive men.
Weinstein used his power as a tool to manipulate people and to sexually abuse women. He sees women as objects.
He is not a nice man.
He committed many crimes against many women.
Not one of his victims is responsible for his behavior in any way. He molested and raped them.
Weinstein sees women as objects and he rapes the ones he wants to rape.
20
This was a very unfair trial and the verdict will be thrown out on appeal. It is a fundamental principle of American jurisprudence that no defendant should be faced with defending separate and independent crimes in one trial. Nothing is more prejudicial. Each crime should have been separately tried.
Here, the prosecutors [erroneously] got away with it because one of the crimes involved a "pattern of conduct." However, the defendant was acquitted of that crime, which means he was wrongfully tried for two separate crimes at the same time.
11
Unfair huh? Sounds just like the President. In another era that would be a compliment, but today you are out of luck. How unfair.
9
I am sure that there are many men and women out there who look back at some of their past attitudes, comments and behaviors, and regret them in light of today's ethics and social mores. It becomes for the larger society a matter of where do we draw the line between simply inappropriate behaviors and those for which we should be held responsible. Weinstein's offenses were crimes then and now. He has been held responsible to some extent, and that is a good thing. Had he been honest about what he did, he may have been treated less harshly in the press. These are tough time for those who have past bad behaviors. A reckoning, of sorts, for many of us.
11
an entirely irresponsible and politically pressured prosecution. if what transpired in this case constitutes proof beyond a reasonable doubt we are in serious, serious trouble as a society.
7
@Andrew Edge Andrew if I was a man or a woman with power I would be very worried.
This trial was a travesty and does not look good for the me too movement and comes across as a witch hunt to satisfy women.
But women need to remember that they have sons and husbands. Justice must be seen to be done also
3
Weinstein was a predator, pure and simple. He ignored a cardinal social rule about subordinates - don't start relationships with those subordinate to you in a work context. Evidently he wasn't looking for relationships - he was looking for prey. Had he wanted actual relationships outside of his marriage, he could have negotiated with plenty of powerful, wealthy women outside of his profession. He chose not to. The origin of blame lies with him, as does his criminal behavior.
Those who aided him, abetted him, and turned a blind eye over the years are also guilty. And his legal team? They make me sick. Dana Rotunno - she makes a mockery of ethics. I suppose the law is something else.
18
The Manhattan DA’s office did a fantastic job getting guilty verdicts on 2 charges. However, guilty verdicts on the most serious charges were not reached. The latter is likely a reflection on the facts of this case more than a public mindset.
2
It’s not a verdict on MeToo. There is only one question. Did he do it? Apparently he did.
14
Err... rape and me too are very different things. Rape will always be completely unacceptable, criminal behavior. To conflate the two is unhelpful and diminishes the importance of Me Too and respect for women.
14
What Weinstein's case did was to open the door for so many types of sexual abuse cases, that in the past we looked the other way.
Hollywood is not the only place where this type of thing goes on, there's the church, the boy scout, gymnastics, and the list goes on.
Hopefully people will speak up from now on.
24
We need to start a discussion of the larger issue, about power hierarchies and the abuse of power. It seems like we will always have hierarchies, but there need to be avenues for challenging the authority of people in power and calling them to account for their abuses
10
Start that discussion?
I never understand phrasing like this. That discussion has been raging for years, if not decades. It's a form of erasure to see this trial as a watershed moment to finally talk about power hierarchies.
And once the talk has begun, what then? Talk doesn't topple power.
7
@Orlando Thank you. I've been saying this for a long time as well. Talk is cheap.As far as I can see, 'start a discussion' means the same as 'do nothing'.
2
To those who can't understand the women who continued a relationship with HW after being assaulted/raped, I also can't imagine it. BUT he was not just some guy. I once found myself in an interview series with the male president of a company. My instincts told me he was going to go down a path which was not 100% professional. I might have been reading him incorrectly as nothing said or done was blatantly inappropriate, but I turned down what might have been a fabulous job when I really needed it as his behavior somehow just didn't "feel right". However, he was just the head of one company, not a major powerful figure in an industry! No one should have to worry about losing their entire careers if they say "no" to a powerful person's advances, so I can try to understand this was likely the situation here. He was not just a boss in a company, he was a Powerhouse with a capital P in a major industry.
43
The thing that has astounded me is the level of sick depravity of perpetrators like Weinstein, Cosby and Epstein. It is not a case of two people getting drunk on some occasion and the man forcing himself on the victim which would be bad enough. These are patterns of depraved serial sexual predators. I realize I have been very naive but I am truly stunned that these people could get away with this kind of behavior for so long.
51
@JS i agree these guys are sickies but they have been enabled to some degree by ambitious women (some comment mentioned earlier that there are plenty of women out there not giving into these men for jobs and hence they do a disservice to women who play the game fairly). i agree. BUT if you are trading on your sexuality then you have to take responsibility and with the results. it's a tough world out there.
2
@hannahjean I once worked with a woman who told me that in her first job her boss asked her to sleep with a customer. She did not do it but I cannot imagine anyone every asking me that in any position I ever held becasue I am a man. Women are pressured to trade sex for favor so often that some will succumb to try to get ahead. Blaming the victim for cracking under pressure is not helpful.
1
“To counter the allegations, Mr. Weinstein and his legal team drummed home the message that #MeToo had spun out of control.”
All that money and that’s the best Weinstein’s lawyers could do? #MeToo will have gone too far when someone accuses a virtual saint of sexual abuse. That’s when the whole movement will come tumbling down.
But right now the likes of Weinstein, Cosby, Ailes, O’Reilly, etc, represent men who did a lot of wrong and were caught and either prosecuted or sued.
Sometimes rich and powerful men lose and justice prevails. There was a time when, like the boys in the Catholic Church, women dared not come forward for fear of retribution. Hopefully that time has passed.
That’s when you appreciate what #MeToo has done.
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@Oliver Many girls were and likely still are molested by the men in the church, but it took boys to speak out before anyone was held accountable. And its only the boys that are recognized even now.
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@terri smith
Boys were choristers. Girls were not. Boys were in the care of priests and lay brothers. Girls were in the care of nuns. Totally different situations.
Well, justice prevailed in this case. One fell through the cracks but I highly doubt change until more women and less patriarchy is at the table. I hope we don't find that he's a personal friend of trump's. Until America, together, take a stand, when we see the wealthy not being held accountable, this will continue.
6
So fortunate I was not on this jury...How do you split the difference on these charges??? Yes, he was guilty of rape, but not predatory sexual behavior---only a lawyer could make these kinds of distinctions.
@Amanda Jones Jurors are instructed by the judge and take their civic duty seriously. The time-honored jury trial system does not require lawyers as jurors - just honest and thoughtful citizens.
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@Amanda Jones
Apparently the jury managed to make the distinction too.
Every case of rape is a distinct event that happened at a given time at a given place.
Predatory sexual behaviour is sexual behaviour that is predatory over a much longer period, that takes place in different places with different victims, that may not include any specific instance of rape.
“This wasn’t ‘Believe all women,’ and certainly not ‘Believe everything women are saying,’” said Isabelle Kirshner, a former Manhattan prosecutor...”
..and what consequences for rape charges that were not believable?
5
Rich people always get away with a year or two in jail from being completed serving the full term.
Mr. Weinstein should be put away based on the years that he did the damages to the women. He should not be paroled for early release.
After all, we are still a lawful country that money cannot buy justice.
5
Not true. Madoff just tried to get out and failed.
3
Harvey Weinstein is a detestable monster, but the verdict yesterday was a travesty of justice.
It was a political show-trial, reminiscent of every modern totalitarian system in recent memory.
Regret for one’s flirtations, and unfulfilled ambitions, do not a rape case make.
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We need to start a discussion of the larger issue, about power hierarchies and the abuse of power. It seems like we will always have hierarchies, but there needs to be avenues for challenging the authority of people in power and calling them to account for their abuses.
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JohnP: Yes, you hit the nail on the head. The Weinstein case, the Trump and Cosby garbage -- it's all about a hierarchical system that allows the powerful to abuse the powerless over and over. We look around and witness the powerful getting away with bad behavior, or even being rewarded for it. Every single day. It's sickening, and makes me wonder if we will ever live in a more enlightened society, if human beings are even capable of evolving beyond our current state.
3
Sanity ruled. Amen for holding predators accountable. Amen for rejecting the preposterous position that the men are victims of a system that trapped them. Amen for rejecting the notion that women who are threatened with ruining their careers are having consensual sex when they succumb to the pressure.
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I applaud this verdict — Harvey Weinstein was found guilty of crimes he was surely guilty of. His money and power and influence did not insulate him from justice.
Something mentioned in this article, however, raises a question: “accountability stretches from the court of public opinion to the court of criminal law.“
Do we want public opinion to stretch to the court of law? Atticus Finch defended an innocent black man from the accusation of rape by a white woman. Public opinion stretched to the court of law of Maycomb, Alabama, and he was found guilty.
Power and influence should not insulate a predator from prosecution. But the court of law, as Harper Lee showed, must also be insulated if it is to remain just.
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@TheUltraOrthodox
Please - you are comparing real women to a fictional story!
This is insulting - and these are two entirely different issues.
Don’t get me wrong - an avid admirer of Harper Lee and “To Kill a Mockingbird” - I have travelled to Monroeville, AL from Wisconsin just to see the annual spring production of this play on the grounds of the Monroeville Court House.
But I don’t think you are getting the enormity and ramifications of predator sexual exploitation - for real. Surely you don’t think all these women made these stories up?
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You’re citing a fictional tale in comparison with a real life case, and a real sexual offender who used his position to victimize tons of people.
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@TheUltraOrthodox
The court of public opinion has protected the male predator in just about every culture of the world throughout history. It is only in the last century or two that equal protection of the female has even been contemplated. This is just one step on the road to human equality. An important step, a step that will be challenged by the already powerful.
As an aside, To Kill a Mockingbird was about another group with no power- black men in the Jim Crow south. As such, it is a condemnation of public power. The kind of public power that discriminates to the benefit of the powerful, not the benefit of justice.
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Is there anything much worse, aside from murder or beaten, than to be sexually exploited?
Maybe these women, having the guts to testify against Harvey Weinstein, the exploiter, have somehow given the exploited a voice and a night’s peaceful sleep, too. At last.
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@MIMA
I wonder if there is a reason why none of the big named actresses were the main accusers. What will beautiful women use to get ahead now - talent. Take a good look at television in the US. Do those female cops look like real female cops? Why is it that plain looking women are almost never cast in these awful TV shows? But of course, these poor women never used their sexuality to get what they wanted. They’re all little angels.
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@JW That's why I love British film. Real people and believable characters.
What a relief from the plastic Hollywood shlock!
Justice. Perhaps things will change in Hollywood and the misogynistic predators will think twice.
20
Change happens slowly. Hopefully this is the first step to effecting change in regards to women and men being able to call out their assailants without fear of retribution or condemnation from society. And even more so, hopefully this is a wake up call to abusers everywhere that they can no longer act with the same impunity they once did.
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He sounds like an awful human being. But I just can't wrap my head around some of the women continued a sexual relationship with this guy, one having consensual relations for a few years! I am glad I was never that desperate in my youth.
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So are you saying that a husband can't rape his wife? If you are married, he can force you any time he likes? No. The courts have recognized that spousal rape is real. If that is the case, this can also be rape, even if they had consensual sex at other times. It is about consent--every time--not the pre-existing relationship.
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@JA
Another article mentions that this happens because the women want to normalize the experience of their assault. As for Weinstein, it was a way for him to control them.
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@JA
I can't wrap my head around that either, but the jury must have had evidence that extinguished any semblance or reasonable doubt. I trust that they believed the verdict was correct and fair.
5
At least perhaps for the first encounter, it seem most of these woman made a Faustian bargain with Weinstein and then jumped on the me.too bandwagon. No doubt he is a devil, but it takes two to make the bargain.
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@TED338 - there’s no basis to believe that “most of these women made a Faustian bargain with Weinstein”. Weinstein was on trial for what he did in specific circumstances. He contested the allegations and was ultimately found guilty.
Focus on the charges. If you want to contemplate the larger issue then consider the careers and lives damaged and destroyed, the charges that prosecutors earlier failed to file, and Weinstein’s violent behavior.
Personally I’m satisfied that Weinstein will go to prison. I’m sad that it took so long to end the spree of rape and sexual assault. That doesn’t reflect well on society.
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There is no doubt Harvey is a bad man, and most probably guilty of many things.
I’m just surprised our legal system found him guilty.
I guess was waiting for more direct evidence.
Now worried the power of finger pointing will be abused.
As it has been throughout history.
24
there was direct evidence: under oath testimony of multiple witnesses, subject to cross examination.
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@Jane. As I understand it, it is very difficult to find “direct” evidence in a rape/sexual assault case. Usually it’s she said/he said unless the woman goes to the police right away and has a DNA test done. And sometimes that doesn’t even work. I read somewhere that there are thousands of rape kits across the country that haven’t been tested. I think the jury made their judgment on the body of evidence coming from all the eye witness testimony at the trial; after all the women were in the room
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@Pragmatic
You appear to be confused.
Testimony is direct evidence. It is very easy to have direct evidence in a sexual assault/rape case--> the victim's testimony. Boom. There you go.
What you and Jane appear to desire is "corroborating" evidence, which is not necessary to sustain a verdict.
There are a lot of powerful men out there who must not be sleeping too well now, figuring they’re next after Harvey. Except, of course, King Donald I, who can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, with no negative consequences.
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I have no problem with the Harvey Weinsteins of the corporate world spending time with the general prison population. But now, lets also start going after the women who climbed the corporate ladder on their backs. If you think this is simply the whining of a frustrated male, then you haven't been listening to the complaints of professionally qualified females who lose promotion to less professionally qualified females who may possess a particular boardroom/bedroom talent. Let's see #MeToo and the DNC media outlets defend women's corporate professionalism against the sexual reward system. To date, the silence has been deafening.
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Sexual assault is a crime. There are laws against it. While the behavior you describe is certainly unethical, it is not against the law, and it does not even begin to compare to the problem of sexual assault in this country and in the workplace—mostly for women, but for men as well.
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@Scott Thank you for being a man who understands the dynamics of sexual abuse and is willing to speak up to a fellow man who clearly does not.
20
@Mike It's people like you and comments like this that keep the current system in place. These women fought through societal condemnation, through the pressure that a man in his position could bring, and through their own trauma around the issue to seek some sort of justice, and the first thing you have to say is "Well, we better go after other women now".
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Donna Rotunno, a woman choosing to protect Harvey Weinstein, makes us wonder what’s happened to her and why.
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It’s called being an attorney. Everyone is entitled to counsel, and it’s repulsive you’d demonize those carrying out that duty.
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@AQ
Have you noticed the distrust people have for attorneys?
Maybe there’s a reason.
9
@Mima,
What’s your alternative?
A lawyer doing her job as an agent in the legal system is to be admired, not deplored.
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Rape is now forever redefined as a man in a position of power, authority, or wealth abusing that position to induce a woman desiring some benefit from that man's privilege to enter into some type of physical contact. This should put an end to men of privilege taking advantage of their situation, which will benefit all the remaining men of the world. It will also benefit woman who are not ready to trade sex for things they desire as they will no longer be at a disadvantageous position to those woman who will.
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@drcmd Only in the State of New York.
Elia Kazan was hardly a victim of McCarthyism; he was a beneficiary of it. On the Waterfront is widely understood to put forth his rationale for informing. Only a few years ago a tribute to him at the Oscars was opposed when half the audience refused to join the celebration.
Weinstein carrying that book is significant but not for the reason implied in the article.
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@spitfire27
But Elia Kazan saw himself as a victim in his 1988 autobiography, and managed to rehabilitate his rep at least somewhat- perhaps that is what Harvey identifies with- playing the victim?
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@kristineandreevna Kazan saw himself as a victim (sic) of the opponents of McCarthyism.