Re Boots: In India it’s an inviolable custom to leave the foot ware outside the residence and of course devotees are only permitted with bare foot in place of worship.
Once I went to Trimbakeshwar Shiva Temple, an ancient Hindu temple near Nashik, Maharashtra, India, dedicated to the God Shiva and the origin of the sacred Godavari River. When I expressed my apprehension of leaving my foot ware outside the temple, my guide, a poor illiterate but highly philosophical, allayed my fears saying for someone stealing foot ware with the simple logic that “Sir you may just lose your foot ware but the chapel thief will suffer curse far worse of inheriting a lifelong moral poverty!”
55
The Ethicist danced around the issue of the Confederate flag. It’s wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts. And it needs to be called out. It is not relevant that the worker has the “right” to have a confederate flag on his truck, as we are not here talking about his constitutional rights. We are rather discussing his abhorrent and untoward behavior in displaying a symbol of hatred and racism. The owner either knew or didn’t know of this display of hatred. Either way he needs to be told that it is not acceptable. Will he also permit a worker to arrive with a swastika on his truck? Because those two go hand-in-hand. Remember Charlottesville?

135
@Fo current-day Germany it is against the law to display the swastika, neo-nazis have taken to using the confederatete battle flag instead.
'Nuff said
113
If the flag or another symbol is brought to a customer's home environment that the customer finds to be personally offensive then the customer should absolutely have the right to mention this to the offending person's employer and request the it not happen again. By way of example, if the customer was Jewish and a vendor showed up with a Nazi symbol on his truck it would be appropriate to again tell the service provider that the display was unacceptable. Any service provider should avoid such an incident from happening as a matter of smart business practice .Free speech principles do not apply to private provision of services and in this instance the customer would be right to complain and should.
73
Regarding the stolen boots, Kwame suggests it's not necessary nor relevant to mention the family was Asian. Perhaps to some small degree, that may be correct. I, myself, am retired to Montana from New York City, many years ago. I understand the custom of the leaving of the shoes 'outside'. However, Kwame, Having lived here in rural Montana for 13 years, I have yet to come across an Asian Person or one who 'appears Asian'. So I believe the writer of the letter regarding the stolen boots does right by mentioning this. You are trying to correct something that really has nothing to do with the essence of the letter, but rather, may have to do with personal feelings of your own. I do not know how many N.Y. Times readers reside in Montana, but I'm fairly certain at least a few of them wouldn't have understood the custom without it being described in a fuller sense.
59
I once had a consultation with a dentist who loudly played the Rush Limbaugh show while he examined my teeth. I did not go back. I could not imagine sitting through a lengthy procedure and having to listen to Rush’s rants. If the office had contacted me to find out why I was not pursuing treatment options, I would have told them why.
82
Re:- Confederate Flag.
People carry all sorts of prejudices with them, visible or not.
The right to freedom of speech does not insist we have to exercise it. If we only dealt with people with whom we agreed or even liked, I suspect there would be a lot of leaky rooves, broken down automobiles, unmown lawns etc..
If the flag is THAT much of a problem, get another tradesman.
24
I thought the question about the Confederate flag on some roofer's truck was informative. It informed (and some of the comments!) educated me that some parts of America are very different from where I live. We live in rural rural Ky. I cannot be litmus testing the bumper stickers of people who drive 45 minutes to work repairing my home!!! I see things on bumpers every time I drive that I disagree with.
And consider this. I once asked someone about a car sticker to a vacation spot. The reply? "It was on the car when I bought it.". So there is that possibility.
25
It's not hard to see use of the Confederate Battle Flag as a deliberate provocation and not merely as a display of pride in southern heritage. For instance, I once took a train to Chicago and we stopped momentarily in Springfield, an early home of Abraham Lincoln. Off in the distance, a huge Confederate stars and bars flag was waving in the wind, above a back porch.
24
Re the confederate flag, while it's true that the First Amendment protects free speech against government and not private action, I'm wondering how we would feel if we compared the situation to writers and actors who were blacklisted during the McCarthy era. Then people who had (at least in the past) aligned with opinions contrary to the prevailing view were prevented from earning a livelihood. Is the urge to have this fellow fired for exhibitng the confederate flag similiarly intolerant of opposing views?
15
@Me
"Is the urge to have this fellow fired for exhibitng the confederate flag similiarly intolerant of opposing views?"
I hope so. One should be intolerant of racist views.
62
Sometimes it's best--if not always easy--to speak in the first person: "I'm uncomfortable with the confederate flag and I wonder if you wouldn't mind putting it away while you work on my home..."
63
Simple- ask the worker to remove the flag before he comes to your house. What he does at other times, he can decide.
44
Going to a job with ANY kind of political symbol on your truck - whether it's a Confederate flag, peace sign, Bernie poster, gay rights rainbow, whatever - is simply unprofessional. That's what I'd say to the boss. He should know that he'll lose business by letting his workers carry on that way. All political symbols are offensive to someone; you have a right to put them on your own property, but you can't have them in the office - and you shouldn't.
76
It’s very disheartening to see all of the comments on here from people who truly believe-as do I- that the flag of the army of northern Virginia symbolizes racism and hatred, but are reluctant to say anything to either the employee or the contractor for fear of who-knows-what kind of retaliation . Also very disheartening for me to admit and acknowledge that I totally agree with them and share their concerns. Just another slide down the slippery slope of allowing bigots and racists free rein in Trump’s America.
70
Regarding the Confederate Flag issue:
Do not engage with provocateurs. Do not rise to their bait. You are playing their game for their amusement and their neediness for attention. They will like that you confront them or complain to their boss. It is their raison d’être. Sadly, like Our Fearless Leader, they are still in the schoolyard.
(I do realize that my comment offers no help to solve the dilemma of how to screen for these people beforehand when seeking a contractor. If only.)
26
"You might come prepared to explain to your roofer the true nature of Southern secession, only to discover that to him it speaks to a love of Lynyrd Skynyrd or 'The Dukes of Hazzard.' "
That's not how symbols work. Otherwise, may I sell tshirts with the Nike symbol and defend myself when sued for trademark infringement by claiming that when I used the symbol it was representing something other than the shoe company?
If you want to prominently display a vulgar and offensive symbol then be prepared for people to assume that you're embracing that symbols whole meaning.
56
A similar incident happened to an African American couple who hired a contractor whose vehicle displayed a Confederate flag. There was no debate between husband and wife; the minute the contractor pulled up into their driveway, the wife immediately told him his services were no longer needed and shared the reason why.
I am aware that there are people who argue this flag is part of their heritage. However, as a child of the civil rights movement of the '60s, I know better.
The fact this flag is used as a placeholder in countries where the swastika is banned--add to that Confederate VP Alexander H. Stephens' Cornerstone Speech--the display of the Confederate flag has nothing to do with anyone's heritage.
95
I would really like to hear what happened IRL. Or was this all hypothetical ?
2
@Susan Archie Which question?
4
There’s a lot of speculation in comments about the various meanings or symbolism of the confederate flag and caution about assuming the driver of this vehicle is racist. Remember the current context of this event. From the illustration, I am led to believe the worker had an actual flag hoisted on his truck. You are naive to think that the people who do this are celebrating their southern heritage. I live in NC and this practice is spreading among racists and Neo-conservatives of all stripes. They are also standing on street corners in towns waving this flag. Some of them will claim there’s nothing racist about the flag, which is historically inaccurate. Slavery is racist.
68
I’d try a different approach to the writer’s problem, one with less emphasis on the “us” and “them” that’s so prominent these days. Since the flag on the truck is seen as an expression of worker’s beliefs, but no violence is being done in this very moment that needs to be stopped, the writer could try something more unifying, a smile, a greeting, a “thank you for the good work,” even an offer of donuts and coffee. Donuts? Yes, donuts. The warmth and hospitality might not change the worker’s thinking, but a smile or a “thank you” from him might soften the writer’s stance a little and help each of your to see the other as human.
12
I would have spoken if this wasn't 2020. (in the past I did confront many racists and anti semites, but these days I would be more cautious, especially when you live in a house in Maine where you can be a target). But, I would consider sending anonymously Southern Poverty Law Center booklet to the contractor and the confederate flag flying crew member? Also make a small donation in honor of their name, that will do it! You can feel better about having done something concrete, helping those in the thick of it fighting against racism and bigotry.
21
The article refers to someone from Maine. Besides the usual and obvious problems with it, 8,000 Mainers died fighting that flag.
That should be enough to shame anyone with a shred of decency. Aside from the obvious reason, which we all know so many will not be so shamed.
59
The confederate flag doesn’t just give some people the “willies”; for many it reminds them of their ancestors who were kidnapped, tortured, enslaved, and lynched by bearers of that flag. For many it is a threat, a message that they are still hated and in danger. Those of us who know history wouldn’t think the people displaying this flag are doing so because they’re fans of the Dukes of Hazard. Bottom line is why give your money to them? That’s the power you do have. So skip all of that contemplation, the answer is simple: fire them from the job if you can, and tell them you don’t support hate. If you let them finish, after the work is done and the bill is settled, tell them why you’ll never hire them again.
53
Who doesn't take their shoes off in someone else's house? It's common courtesy regardless of ethnicity.
38
I long ago stopped practicing law, but what a drag it is knowing what I know and forecasting what happens in our litigious society. You send the roofer away, job undone. [Not taking sides here.] The company cites its minimum charge (let’s say $92). You refuse to pay — and when they threaten, just to put force behind your views, you say “So sue me!” They might (with all the hassles that would ensue), but to be really devious, they can just file a mechanic’s lien (a mechanic's lien is a security interest in the title to property for the benefit of those who have supplied labor or materials that improve the property.) So in the end you pay, or worse, you ignore the lien, but years later, when you go to sell the house, the lien becomes an issue at closing. Oh how I would sleep better if I had never gone to law school.
And I think the mention of the Asian (cultural) reason is relevant. Otherwise the family would face what we face a couple of times a month: “Oh don’t worry, my shoes are clean!”
19
As for the flag? Don't hire the guy. But equating this and the Nazi's with a MEGA wearer? That's laughable. Who is an uninvited guest at a kids birthday party? Are strangers now showing up to parties and being allowed in to join the fun? Obviously, the homeowners know who all the people are and can call them during the week to find out who took home the "wrong" shoes. Surely, all the adults could be trusted to sort out this issue.
8
I forgot who, but some once said "I don't mind the display of the Confederate Flag, that's how we know who too avoid." although the actual second part of the quote what somewhat more colorful.
You have every right to not have the symbol displayed outside you house. But a simple "Please put that away." gets the point across without reinforcing the stereotypes the the right seems to have for the left.
17
@Paulie A friend, is a resident of Charleston, SC and prominent voting rights attorney. He wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper during the time of the initial disagreements about displaying the stars and bars on public buildings in South Carolina. He advocated the display of the flag likening it to the skull and crossbones on a bottle of poison.
10
So true that affluent parents wouldn't think losing something worth $200 is any more than a momentary nuisance.
One of my kids was in a dorm one year in college with some very wealthy kids. She quickly learned they would constantly ask to "borrow" $20 or more but would not return it and would think she was weird if she asked for it back.
Hey what's the deal, the ATM is always full because parents keep my account filled up. Don't yours?
11
@mj I attended undergrad before ATMs but every week with his snail-mail letter, Dad would enclose a $20 bill. He paid tuition and board and I paid for record albums, trendy clothing. social life etc. Perhaps the teen in this letter paid for her own booties.
3
I'm am old guy and live not too far from Gettysburg. Virtually every Pa school kid made the trip to the battlefields where they had a special, deep place near the hearts of us Northern kids. Stories were passed down from great grandparents about the battle.
But, rebellious kids would sometimes decorate their car with the Confederate Battle Flag. This indicated some degree of rebelliousness. Not sympathy for the Southern Slaveholders.
Have a chat with the owner of the car. He, too, has a story to tell.
16
I find the display of the Confederate flag to be deeply offensive. I would ask the person displaying the flag what message they intended to communicate. I would note that they certainly have a right, under the 1st Amendment to display the flag. However, I would tell the person that every time I see the Confederate flag displayed I have vowed to make a donation to the NAACP.
Regarding the stolen shoes, as a homeowner, I would have given the child $200 to replace the shoes. Commenting on the ethnicity of the homeowner was not relevant to the inquiry. Therefore, it should not have been included.
19
I would not have tolerated a worker displaying a confederate flag in my neighborhood. I would have told them they can't display that flag in my neighborhood and at that moment either they put it away or go away. I would also let the company know what happened. I have no tolerance for racism.
35
@yvonne And of the contract you signed with the vendor? I guess you pay it off with no work done?
9
@David Misconduct which would include provocative conduct like displaying a racist symbol on the part of their employee would void any contract.
14
Re: the Confederate flag: call the boss. If dissatisfied with the response, write a review on Yelp. Personally I would not want that employee, or someone wearing a MAGA hat, on my property, it’s akin to inviting a Nazi into your home.
As for the boots, maybe think twice about buying expensive stuff for teenagers. I don’t believe the host family was responsible.
32
That last paragraph is silly and unnecessary; the fact that the host family is Asian is descriptive of the practice, and totally germaine to the issue the author raises.
55
That last paragraph is called a smack down my friend! What kind of white privilege must you have to acknowledge one culture does some odd things lol
3
Agree. Another annoying attempt to project the virtues of diversity.
6
@bigblujay We are of eastern European origin and my sister asks people to remove shoes upon entering her home. It's not cultural, it's dirt control!
28
No flag would or will ever appear at my property, even on the street. I like to think I'd have started a conversation re: "why the flag." I definitely would have immediately called his boss. I don't think I'd have let him in or let him start the job.
I do admit to living in a bubble -- and loving it. I've never seen a confederate flag in my town. Sadly, I live in the same lily white bubble, in regard to Black people. But I do speak a little Spanish and have "other-ized" friends and neighbors, and a community, whom I support in political and real-life ways big and small.
Hard to believe the stolen shoe episode of Sex and the City was not mentioned! But I've only read two pages of comments. lol. The author should've cited it. Or maybe that would have only increased its citation.
13
@CarSBA I thought of that SNC episode too! And it was handled in the same “why am I responsible?” way.
4
@CarSBA I need to point out that you can't control what happens in a public street. Were you to tell me what I could do in the public street would certainly invite more of my behavior at my joy.
8
@David No, the public street belongs to every member of the public. The street is not her property. She also couldn’t prevent her next door neighbor from flying a Confederate flag or putting up a Re-elect Trump or Elect Bernie sign.
8
It is simply none of the poster’s business if a particular roofer has a Confederate flag on display in his truck. No, she should not discuss it with him or with his employer to try to get him fired. She can always decide against hiring that company again and give the reason if she is asked.
20
@Bookworm8571 Not true. She is the customer. If she doesn't appreciate the message her contractor's employee is conveying by displaying a confederate flag in front of her house, she is perfectly free to ask him to remove the flag from view while his vehicle is in front of her house. He is free to refuse, and she is then free to fire the contractor.
Would your response have been different if the guy was displaying something of an incendiary nature of which you disapproved, such as a large "impeach trump" sign?
31
@cinde ruba And as a customer is operating under. contract that may require payment upon failure to provide access to the property or cooperation with the vendor. tread lightly. this is a business issue and not a moral issue.
9
@cinde ruba My answer would be the same regardless of what the controversial sign or bumper sticker was. The roofer has a constitutional right to display his Confederate flag on what is presumably his personal vehicle (or his Re-Elect Trump bumper sticker or Proud Pro Life voter license plate, etc.) The neighbors quite likely know it’s not the home owner’s truck and it is only parked there for a few hours or at most days. It’s not a message promoted by the home owner. If someone asks her about it, she can tell anyone who asks that it is the roofer and she doesn’t agree with the flag’s message but the company is contracted to do the work and did it well. I would also assume that the owner of the business already knows that his employee has a Confederate flag on his truck if it is parked in the company lot. I find it more problematic that the home owner would try to have the guy fired and take away his livelihood. At most she could tell the business owner that she won’t be using his services again if he sends out this particular roofer with the Confederate flag because she finds it offensive.
15
As for the Confederate flag.....if instead of the stars and bars it featured a swastika, would one be so loathe to deal with it? My reaction would be to ask the foreman to have his worker remove the flag while working on my project. If he refuses they lose the job. Easy. There are plenty of non-racists who could use the work.
As for the boots, If instead your coat were stolen at a party would you feel the same about having the host reimburse you?
25
@Ravenna About the coat: After two years of saving my pennies and putting it off, I finally set aside an ugly ill-fitting parka from Goodwill and paid hundreds of dollars for a long-desired super-warm parka at LL Bean, that fits like a dream.
Of course I'd consider asking a host to reimburse me if they had a rule requiring me to leave it in a spot where it could easily be stolen by random people they were letting crash an event they'd invited me to (which I was unaware was happening).
13
In reply to reply.
The Ethicist went into the ins and outs of rushing to a "racist' judgment on seeing the Confederate battle flag on the truck. Doc in Georgia's reply to my Comment zeros in on parody and irreverent humor, sees the difference, and seems to think that everyone would also see the difference.
I have seen enough of the Ethicist and SocialQ columns and far more to know that this is not so. And it is not just parody or irreverent humor. Remember the TV tennis analyst who saw Venus Williams lay back and rush the net in what in tennis is called a "guerilla movement" and descried it as such. He was canned. You know. "Gorilla." And the D. C. government official who said "niggardly" in its dictionary meaning of "reluctant to give or spend. stingy, miserly." He also was canned.
Different people do or say different things for all kinds of different reasons, only some of which merit being turned into "racist" federal cases by third parties. Unfortunately, there are those who are prepared to turn whatever they can into "racism" so that they can become outraged, an issue lurking in the Name Withheld question.
.
17
@Donald Nawi You really think that one needs to go to great lengths to detest the display of a Confederate flag, and they do this because they somehow enjoy feeling outraged?
I notice you needed to bring up a series of random unrelated mini-events in an attempt to prove your point...
Now I'm wondering why you or anyone feels a great need to take a stand against people who detest racism.
12
In example #2.
As Californians we and all our friends ask that no shoes be worn inside our home. Same with family and friends in Hawaii, Seattle, Aspen CO, NYC, Phoenix, Miami,
It's simply part of our minimalist lifestyle and more common in warm climate areas. Of course if someone has an issue that requires wearing footwear they wear footwear inside our home.
14
@Beth Grant-DeRoos We ask everyone to remove their shoes before entering our home too, but not for the reasons you mention. NYC is filthy and I don't want anything tracked in from the streets in my home!
14
I grew up in the South in the 70s and never thought much about the confederate flag one way or the other. Having moved away 20 years ago, when I go to visit my black friend in Mississippi and see the confederate flag up everywhere now - it is disturbing.
While I understand some people feel it is a part of their heritage - the confederate flag represents the purchase and sale of your neighbors and fellow Americans and the pain that slavery caused. I have great great grandparents who fought for the confederate side, who owned no slaves to my knowledge (they were too poor) but fought for their way of life and home. So it is part of my heritage, too - and one that I don’t disclaim. But I want no part in a symbol of slavery and pain. Southerners value politeness and putting yourselves in the shoes of others - and flying the confederate flag flies in the face of those values.
Ethically, you have no duty to say something to the gentleman, in my view. But you can - and should - certainly do so if you choose - though please do it in a way that doesn’t just push the man further away.
24
If the parents of the birthday girl were not aware of uninvited guests coming and going I might be concerned about my daughter going there again.
And these parents should offer to replace the boots. Your daughter and you should not suffer due to their lack of oversight. I wonder what else they had missing from the house ? ?
29
I really like the ethicist's column and I particularly benefited from today's question about the confederate flag. Thank you. I could not have articulated all of that and it made excellent sense.
8
Regarding the Maine resident who was not sure how to address a worker's display of the Confederate flag: I think there were a few missed opportunities in terms of advice and consideration. Why not suggest "voting with your dollars" -- simply don't hire that roofer again. Any homeowner knows that house work is never finished. And, depending on the situation, the homeowner could go one more step to explain the reason why to. the owner. Depending on the size of the outfit, it's actually possible that the company owner did not know every subcontractor in his or her employ. All the more reason to explain what a customer's needs are regarding values of the companies with whom he or she does business. Yes, larger corporations tend to be more public about their values statements. However, many small companies owe their growth due to a combination of work quality and their approach to business. They depend on word-of-mouth endorsements, which could be tarnished by a situation such as this.
There could be an opportunity for the owner, who has the strength of the business at heart, to dig into the people who represent his or her company. If that leads to continued quality work as a result of careful staff reduction, that's business. You asked what the homeowner's goal was. Finding trusted partners in homeownership could be the ultimate goal and if that's accomplished by sticking to those with shared values, that's a solid goal.
18
@Carol Berman "Regarding the Maine resident who was not sure how to address a worker's display of the Confederate flag: I think there were a few missed opportunities in terms of advice and consideration. Why not suggest "voting with your dollars" -- simply don't hire that roofer again." There are 533 comments here. At LEAST 15 percent of the people said that. No missed opportunity.
7
@PrairieFlax No need to be snippy. The missed opportunity I referred to was on the part of the writer, as did the other commenters. There's strength in numbers...I never said I was the first with the thought or idea. And some NYT moderator seemed to agree that my comment was worth sharing. Back to your regularly scheduled Sunday Times reading...
5
I also live in Maine, after being raised in the South, and I can't for the life of me understand why a Confederate flag should fly anywhere up here.
I recently had extensive home repairs due to a natural disaster. The roofer hired by the insurance company showed up on day one dressed like he was headed to a Trump rally. It showed very poor judgement on his part, but anxious to get my work done, I bit my lip while my car was parked in the driveway sporting lib bumper stickers. Had there been a Confederate flag, I would have drawn the line there.
While I totally uphold the First Amendment, that only protects a person from government action. I will definitely skip over contractors who openly espouse politics don't line up with mine. I don't have to give my money to someone who is openly proud to sport racist symbols, and I certainly won't recommend them to my friends.
44
@Michele
Like you, I will not have a "Stars and Bars" flying on MY property. In the same way one should have been raised with better sense than to wear the Confederate Loser Flag to Church, (much less to wear a gun), people doing work on *my property need to observe the common courtesy of keeping their private political opinions just that ..... "private" if they want to come on my land, and accept my money for being there.
I contracted out for *services. Not to *pay for the questionable "privilege" of contributing free space for their offensive private advertizing.
The solution could not BE more obvious. When you are on the job on my property your flag stays elsewhere. When the time comes when you are *off of my property, you can fly whatever hate symbols you have chosen to define *you as a human being.
Michele, in addition, I *second your accurate reading of the First Amendment, stating that the *Government shall make no laws abridging Freedom of speech, .... etc."
It has nothing to *do with conduct in public, and least of *all to do with conduct on *my private property. That is where the law protects *your rights as a property owner.
People who fly flags, wear bumper stickers, or buy offensive tattoos have a decision to make, along the lines of "can I really *afford this kind of "self expression"? Only if it does not prevent you from earning a living" has to be the sole sensible conclusion. It is our *duty to call these people on their "stuff".
21
As to the shoes: This summer I managed to jam a sewing needle into my foot while walking around without shoes. I could not get it out as it was too deep. I am on Medicare so cost was not an issue. However, the way medicine is now practiced, it took me over a week to get the needle removed. It turned out that most of these auxiliary medical sites do not do surgeries of any sort. We were turned away from them. My husband and I then went to an emergency room. It was not the right trauma level so no one there would remove it. They took an xray, set up an appointment for me the next week with a surgeon and gave me antibiotics and a tetanus. Apparently, I needed to go to a level one trauma center to get a needle removed from my foot if I wanted it out that week (maybe level 2; I don't know. The emergency room was owned and operated by the Cleveland Clinic, not a hack hospital). What I should have done, apparently, was drive downtown to Metro and line up with the gunshot wounds! As it was, I had to drive 45 minutes one way to go to the surgeon the next week. He removed it in less than two minutes. I came home and spent over $100 on slippers with protective soles. I now never walk barefoot or in socks. If someone wants me to take off my shoes or these shoe-slippers, I am going home. Now that I know what a nightmare it will be to get a medical facility that is reasonably close to remove something from my foot, the footwear stays on.
19
@CK Irvin
I would have soaked the foot in hot Epsom salts until it was soft and the needle opening accessible, then bit my lip and removed the needle with a pair of pointed tweezers. Keep soaking it. If it looks infected then go and sit in the emergency room.
Once I made the mistake of going to the Doc-in-the-Box to have a tick removed from an inaccessible area. It cost me $75. including a shot of novocaine (probably for the tick's benefit and against my wishes). Next time I'm going to my dog-owning neighbor.
12
@CK Irvin, if you go into the home of someone who requires that you remove footwear, you either comply, or you turn around and go home. It is disrespectful to ignore this rule. Personally, I don’t have a high opinion of people who require this of guests solely because they want to protect their Brazilian rare wood floors...rather than for culturally reasons. But I keep that opinion to myself, and I do what they ask. Because I am a guest in their home.
The polite thing for hosts to do is to provide house slippers for their barefoot visitors. If they cannot do that, they might warn guests of the policy and advise them to wear (presentable) socks. Bare feet in the house might look okay in Hawaii, Coastal Australia, Florida or Bali, but in a lot of the world they look kind of awful. (NB: I am grossed out by feet. I know it’s weird.)
I once attended a housewarming party for a couple who had a no-shoes rule because the wife was Japanese — so there was a clear reason for the request too remove one’s shoes before entering the home, and everyone knew about this ahead of time. The oafish husband of one of the hostess’s colleagues staged a tantrum at the door, and refused to remove his shoes. Then he paraded all around the house with his shoes on, making a big point of it. What did he he accomplish with this behavior? He made himself look like a vulgar and self centered person, and he embarrassed the heck out of his wife. He must have gotten an earful when they got home.
23
@Ravenna My husband is my first aid person. He did his whole first aid routine for about 2 hours. Nothing worked. I had really jammed it in there. The biggest surprise to me is that I have a ton of medical facilities surrounding me. I had not had an emergency in years. I did not realize that all of these facilities, including the emergency room, surrounding me would refuse to remove the needle because it required surgery. I had no idea that they expected me to drive about 45 minutes downtown to the Metro Hospital Trauma One Center to get a needle removed from my foot. There I would get thrown to the back of the line with triage because my needle trauma would look like nothing compared to every other trauma, like gunshot wounds. I imagine I would wait for many hours. I can remember the days when I could walk into ANY emergency room to get a needle pulled out of my foot. Those days are gone.
6
And yet ...... in *this example, "not bringing up race" is putting one's head in the sand for fear of failing to appear to be "politically correct".
IF the host family is Japanese, and attempting to cultivate Japanese custom and tradition in the U.S., the "crux" of the problem is now accurately assessed.
I lived in Japan for under a year. You could leave your shoes/boots in open wooden compartments physically built *outside the public building (bar, restaurant, etc.) and due to the social agreements in Japan, NO ONE local would *ever touch your shoes. Guaranteed.
This however, is predicated upon *having an *entire culture raised upon principles of honesty and personal responsibility *surrounding the public buildings under discussion.
In *this case, the parents hold some liability due to the fact that traditions that *work in Japan, due *to the way the Society raises their children, clearly do NOT work in the United States. People here WILL steal your personal items if they are *not nailed to the foundation, and often even when they *are.
The U.S. is a place where adolescents will *shoot one another over a pair of sneakers. Japan is definitely *not such a place. However tempting it may be for Japanese homeowners to *wish to reproduce the culture of Japan inside the comfort of their homes in the U.S., they cannot expect U.S. society to mirror that of Japan when it comes to their children interacting with adolescents raised in the U.S. .... Culture Clash.
19
@Nominae, that’s all a bit much, in my opinion. I disagree with just about everything you posted.
However, this hyperbolic statement — People here WILL steal your personal items if they are *not nailed to the foundation, and often even when they *are — reminded me of something funny that happened years ago.
Some Japanese friends were newly posted to the US for the husband’s corporate job. They said they were shocked and concerned when their shoes (which they stowed outside on the covered porch of their suburban home) kept disappearing. They did not know what to do about it, as the dog not want to create a fuss or offend anyone. Eventually, they discovered who the thief was. A neighborhood dog, who wandered in the night.
Yep, American canines are all thieves at heart. Can’t trust them.
8
Your piece on the Confederate flag really got me to thinking particularly the part on the short story titled "Appropriation of Culture". I began to wonder what would have happened had the hip-hop community adopted the Confederate flag as a statement of black power instead of constantly saying the N-word in an attempt to weaken that word's power. It's a twisted approach, but I supposed black people can use that flag as a way of showing how strong they are and how they have survived in this country by overcoming (still to this day) the very meaning of the Confederate flag. I'm sure fliers of the Confederate flag would not like that at all (although, come to think of it, Kanye did put it on an article of clothing). I am definitely going to read that short story. Very interesting.
And, IMO, the homeowner should pay for the boots. If you ask someone to take their shoes off upon entering your home, it serves to reason that they should be able to walk out of your house with those same boots when they leave.
16
Racism is such a word play that it can be attached to almost any kind of human interaction today. Perhaps instead of being the racist white policewomen it would be wise to really come to terms with why you think you can spot it in any interaction. You definitely contribute to the false belief that America is focused on racial boundaries. What's true, is it is your personality types that distort human interactions no matter where they live and inflate violent interactions and then have the audacity to write an article like this. Get some professional therapy before you cause a serious altercation of your making.
8
"I won't hire or have on my property anyone displaying symbols of bigotry or hatred including the Confederate flag or Nazi symbols."
If you say that and are threatened or attacked, defend yourself. If you can't or won't then recognize you are being cowed by a racist bully.
22
i think the ethicist is very insightful and correct in his answers to both questions.
gilbert
7
There was a song a while back. "Save your Confederate money boys, the South shall rise again." It's just a fun song, in fact a parody. I can just see some Name Withheld who heard me sing it asking the Ethicist or SocialQ about confronting me and asking for ways to make me stop.
3
No, we understand the difference between parody, irreverent humor, and hate speech/trolling. Do you?
31
Would your response be the same if the worker displayed the Nazi flag? Personally, I would have just asked him to leave and explained my feelings to the person I hired. If he won’t send a different crew then I’d get any deposit back and hire another roofer. That would send a stronger message. Talking to the roofer won’t do any good and could result in negative consequences.
20
Re:- Confederate flag.
What is the big deal ?
If you want your roof fixed, keep quiet, smile and say nothing.
He is there to fix your roof, nothing more.
12
@Jericho IF he's there to 'fix my roof" he should bring his tools, not his politics.
48
The big deal is slavery, bigotry, ongoing racism. Bigger deal than any one roof.
60
@Doc Re :- Confederate flag.
OK. I get that people get wound up about all sorts of issues.
But, he is there to fix the roof.
Full stop.
Nothing more.
Racism, bigotry, slavery are all evils in our society. They very well be bigger issues than one roof.
Depends, though, on whose roof it is.
5
I love the idea of defusing a weapon (Confederate flag) by using it to convey the opposite of its harmful meaning (black power). Feminists did something like that in the 197Os, toward men and those things they are most proud of. Many years ago a woman here — an aging feminist hippie chick — trimmed an enormous hedge in the front of her home into the topiary shape of an erect John Thomas. It was hilarious. Derision disempowers. Take that, Weinsteins of the world.
People have the right to hold whatever views they wish, and to let their freak flags fly. This roofer was not doing anything to harm the couple he was working for. It was none of their business what stickers or flags he placed on his truck. If they were truly offended, they should have send him packing and hired another company to do the work. Anything else is just lip service, and the motivation behind giving Mr. Redneck a good talking to is making yourself feel better about yourself. It’s not to educate. He is not going to change.
If I spent all my time trying to correct the views of workmen in my home, I would never get any repairs done.
The thing about the boots floored me. Insurance for a pair of shoes? Really? If you go to a party where people are milling in and out of the house, you do not leave something of value by the front door. When I go to a home where I know I have to remove my shoes, I wear something I don’t mind kicking off into a pile of other people’s shoes. Let it go.
9
@Passion for Peaches Who's John Thomas?
1
@kenneth -- a neighbour to C.O.Jones
1
@kenneth, an (often) upright young man, who is very sensitive to cold. He is often said to have a mind of his own, and sometimes even does all of the thinking for his boss — especially the boss is driving in traffic. ;-)
6
In regards to the flag, I personally would have fired the company. The owner clearly knew about the flag and is in tacit support by allowing such an obvious affront to a client, and to decency. You just should not treat clients that way! I have no time for people baiting me and there is no good excuse for such ignorant racism. Dukes of Hazzard? I think not. No one living in today's society is ignorant of the implications of this flag, and the current administration has supported and flamed such ignorance. As a society though we do not have to give approval of racism. I think you strengthen the wolf you feed, let's not feed this damaging and inhumane ignorance with any level of approval. Fire the contractor for being so rude to his client, if not so insensitive to humanity. My 2 cents.
35
@Camille The only error in your reply is that people are not ignorant of the implications of the flag. The are LOTS of people ignorant about US history. (Many naturalized citizens know more.) I worked with a high school graduate who did not know what The Boston Tea Party was. Nor did she know the meaning behind it (if she couldn’t recall the name). The worker IS ignorant if he displays that flag everywhere he goes. One day, he will park that truck in the wrong neighborhood.
2
Maybe he just liked being a rebel.
4
@Blackbeard great. I'm sure there are clients that appreciate that. Not all do. I don't want his truck in front of my house.
13
@Blackbeard
A Rebel Without a Cause....or a job.
16
@Blackbeard
Huge difference between being a "rebel" and celebrating a "heritage" made up of four hundred years worth of slavery, mass murder, lynching, beating and bigotry.
Southerners whining about the Confederate Loser flag as being "only" a symbol of their "heritage" seem to be too under-educated to KNOW what their "heritage" meant !
That's like Commandants from Nazi Death Camps celebrating *their "heritage".
Only people with zero understanding of reason and logic would dare to dive behind *that weak soup ! They insult the intelligence of *rest of grown adults in their delusion that *anyone is buying *that line !
Really ..... who *are they trying hardest to convince ?
Me ? Or themselves ?
19
Just this morning I stopped for coffee at a roadside market on Long Island. A 40-ish man there with his preteen daughter was wearing a sweatshirt that said Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. I don't think anyone would disagree with my decision not to confront a man purposely wearing a deliberately offensive message, but the incident supports the opinions of those who advise against speaking directly to the truck owner about his Confederate flag. We live in angry times.
12
@Nancy Lederman
You weren't hiring the sweatshirt-wearing pre-teen, and she was not on your property. Apples and oranges.
19
We have a family in our neighborhood whose son had a Confederate flag prominently displayed on his huge monster truck, along with a big one on the wall of his bedroom which you could observe from the street when the lights were on his bedroom. I was appalled. This is an upper-middle-class neighborhood, primarily white, but with a handful of families of color, including at least two black ones. And this family is not Southern. So what exactly was the point of this flag, that he likes country music? Whatever his reason, it seemed to me to be a breach of the expected civility of a planned community, so I brought it up with the board and was told there was nothing to be done, he wasn't breaking any laws, and he had a right to "free speech." Seriously, you can't have your Xmas lights up past the middle of January or put the plumber's sign on your lawn while he's doing work on your house, but a Confederate flag - 150 miles from Gettysburg - is sacrosanct? What next, a swastika?
35
Your attitude explains why you choose to live in a little community.
7
@Doc
Yeah. The author is from Philly. Not Georgia.
Boorish Public behavior is not protected by the First Amendment. Only Government action.
"The Government shall make no law ....abridging the freedom of speech ... freedom of the press ...
It does not protect "boneheaded" public behavior.
That is the problem with the author's housing council .... misunderstanding the Constitution.
Not public riot law.
11
@Doc Seriously? I live in suburban Philadelphia. AND I'm Jewish. I am no more concerned about being attacked and beaten to a pulp than I would be in any other neighborhood in the region. That's not the point. And I'm not sure what @Skippy's is. A "little community"? Where exactly should I be living? I bought a home 20+ years ago I could afford with a decent school district. Am I supposed to be ashamed about that?
6
I was born and raised in the South. No way would I let the Stars and Bars be on display in front of my house. I'd talk to the boss and ask him to have the worker cover that up while he was on the job. Not get rid of it, cover it up. If he refused, I'd ask him to leave. I'd do the same if it was a swastika.
33
@RL Joy On second thought I'd tell the swastika to get the heck off my property.
9
@RL Joy
Agree, except I'd just tell them both to get off my property at once. No discussions. I just don't hire people with your beliefs. Go away. I hire people who don't broadcast racist messages to the world every time they drive down the street.
6
A shift of scene: Imagine 30 years from now and a German Lost Cause has festered in Europe. A young restless roofer with German roots shows up to your house displaying a rebellious Nazi flag sticker on his car....
What’s so hard? Tell your husband to man up and fire the roofer. You have a choice. Others didn’t.
22
@John E Please, please don't assume that people flying the battle flag are southern or that someone wearing Nazi paraphernalia is German.
8
@John E
Unfortunately, we don’t have to imagine 30 years from now. It’s right now. Just read the two articles on what’s going on in Germany in today’s New York Times.
11
As far as the flag and the roofing co., just call the boss and say we aren't comfortable with your employees flag and do not want him working on our house. Do not approach a person that lives through hate!
22
most immigrants, not as incorrectly stated only those from Asia, take off their shoes when entering a/their home.
3
@xyz "Most immigrants" -- quite a statement. Not required among any of the Italians I know.
4
The girls can post on social media about the missing boots. Putting the word out around school might at least give the thief a reason to feel nervous or motivate someone who knows who stole the boots to reveal the thief. Likely won’t get the boots back but might at least out the thief to her close friends and ruin her enjoyment of your boots.
As disappointing as it is to have one’s possessions stolen, it’s not clear the parents are responsible. If they had required everyone leave cellphones in a communal bin, it might have been prudent to anticipate the risk of theft and monitored those. But, come on, who steals footwear? (And, was there a random pair of shoes left behind or did the thief walk out carrying her shoes or the purloined boots? If there is an extra pair of shoes then put the pic of those on social media. High school girls always know what their friends own.)
36
The husband is right. Assuming the Confederate flag is proof that the person displaying it is racist is making a big and likely unwarranted leap. Consider how many people are politically ignorant. (Hint: a lot.) Many of them don't know the deeper history of the Confederate flag. People display all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, and often it has nothing to do with their deep seated beliefs about anything. It could be a gift from his deceased releative, he could be displaying generic Southern pride (happens all the time here in Texas,) it could be there because it matches his truck color, etc. . . It's patronizing for this woman to think she should lecture someone else on what they should believe or display on their vehicle.
13
@Kristin Bull. None of this matters anyway. He may not know what stupidity his racist symbol expressed (,fat chance) but everyone else does.
He has freedom of speech but there is no freedom to work at my house.
I would tell the roofer to remove the truck from the front, and urge him to bring in a different worker.
I
17
@Kristin
from your comment above: "he could be displaying generic Southern pride (happens all the time here in Texas,)"
When apparently under-educated Texans mistake the Flag of those who *lost the Civil War, the Battle Flag of The CSA representing four hundred years of slavery, mass murder, lynching, Jim Crow, robbery, theft and bigotry, for something to take "generic" PRIDE IN, then they cannot be *surprised that their very ignorance will prevent them from many avenues of gainful employment, certainly *outside of Texas.
If they choose to fly the flag it is *their responsibility to *KNOW as an adult what it means. Willful ignorance *past that point gives a prospective employer even *more reason to "pass them over" as a person who will bring much "to the table" in a hiring venue. For adults, those who *don't know ..... *should know. The rest is just hiding behind adolescent denial.
18
@Kristin I live in upstate NY and shortly after Obama was elected I noticed quite a few Confederate flags being displayed in the countryside. This seems to refute your point. Also, to have a such a flag prominently displayed in front of one's house on a vehicle may imply approval by the resident. The logical solution I think would be to ask the boss to have the flag covered up or have the truck moved to a public parking lot, if available.
9
Mentioning that the family was Asian, that the daughters were close friends, is evidence that the complaining parents knew beforehand that shoes worn during travel to/from the party would not be worn at the party. Why let their daughter go off wearing new expensive boots? Why expect someone else to be responsible for a cost that could/should/would have been avoidable with forethought?
8
@Janet
Why expect that the boots would be stolen? Another commenter had a great suggestion that the theft be put on Facebook so that the thief would be outed.
10
Re: The confederate flag issue. I like how the ethicist turns this matter over, thinking it through. But. I live in North Carolina. Last summer we faced off with the KKK in robes on our Main Street (their KKK banner included MAGA, btw). Last week in Chatham County, there were Confederate flags flying — outside the county Board of Elections during the early voting season. I tell you all this to note that this flag is not just an ethicist's dilemma, it is a racist symbol that means business here in the south and is raised where our democracy is being stolen from us and people of color and their allies are being menaced. While the reference to the short story is charming, this is not fiction: it is deadly serious and getting more so every second. This writer has the right to put up her own sign, saying "Pardon Our Appearance: This House is Not Racist." Or, in a harder punch to the gut, call the company and tell them that unless the truck is removed from your property, your contract with them is void. The writer has the right to not participate in racist displays by permitting them in front of her house.
40
Regarding LW 1 -
Whenever these types of issues arise - I'm always reminded of Nat Hentoff - the great liberal thinker who would often remind the readers of his column in the Village Voice - (often, much to their displeasure) - that the whole point of the First Amendment is to specifically protect the speech of others whom you find to be insulting, disgusting, abhorrent and reprehensible --
What happens if - instead of displaying a confederate flag - the contractor is wearing a "MAGA" hat -- ?
Do you confront him then --??
As others have pointed out - people who engage in that type of passive-aggressive "in-your-face" behavior are just looking for a reaction - in most cases because they're very frustrated and unhappy - and the best thing one can do is follow that wise old adage --
"Kill them with kindness" ...
5
@Howard G
Sorry....if someone wearing a MAGA hat walked in I would find his presence intolerable and would cancel the job. If enough people stand up to Fascism it will be weakened.
12
@Howard G
Actually, the *only point of the First Amendment is to protect citizens from having the *Government make laws "abridging the right of free speech ..... free press ....." etc.
The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and all of the attending amendments are online where *anyone who is literate can *read them in the original.
The First Amendment has *nothing to do with protecting citizens from other citizens, and even *less to do with controlling public behavior.
There are right now, *far too many people making up their own illusory Second Amendments. Let's protect the *real language in the First Amendment while we are at it.
6
I think that a more general objection is a better approach. Many people are now pasting causes to their vehicles. We have a right to not have people think that we support various causes. Thus, as long as the truck could reasonably be perceived as being attached to the activity at your home, you have the right to complain to your contractor for the cause to be removed. After all, someone could come to your lot later and damage your property because of that message. By general objection, I mean that I don't want to see any political messages being displayed as an adjunct to working on my property. No pro life or pro choice, no Trump vs. X, no Democrat or Republican, no liberal or conservative, no swastika, no "Vote for "X". To make this ironclad, include it as a term within your contract from the very start, making it the contractor's legal obligation. Obviously a PTA bumper sticker or the like is not political nor is My kid is on the honor roll sticker, and the like. So those are ok. I think objecting to all political messages being displayed in proximity to accomplishing this task is the way to go.
Having said all of the above, that flag certainly seems to have a lot of different meanings. To some people it seems to be a yearning for themselves to become Southern Belles and Beaus of old. That cannot be accomplished without slavery but I am not sure such a person puts the two together. They dream of mint juleps on the verandah and perhaps not much else.
4
@CK Irvin
That war was fought by mostly poor white guys protecting their rich overlord's ability to deny them jobs by having free slave labor instead. They lost the war and have now lost all respect from those who see Confederate flag-wavers as traitors and losers.
14
Asking the contractor why he was displaying the confederate flag might have produced an unexpected response: you'll never know unless you ask. Could it be that he really was a racist or could it be that he wanted to initiate a discussion on racism? Perhaps he was doing it for a 'dare' or to raise money for some cause or perhaps it was for some other reason altogether. It's important not to condemn outright without knowing the reason.
4
Let’s imagine a different situation. It’s winter in the northern state. The same party happens. Someone steals another person’s $200 winter coat. Should the hosts pay for that? I think it makes no sense to tell the host that they are responsible in the situation unless you take the same position with respect to the winter coat. Worse yet; it seems bigoted.
7
You blew this one. The flag owner knows exactly what it represents, even if he was a Lynyrd Skynyrd fan.
I'd tell the business owner that flag in my drive (or in front of my house) reflects poorly on me, and request it be removed from the car. If they didn't comply with my request, I'd never use them again nor recommend them to others.
19
@nom de guerre
I'd go further and fire them if they didn't remove the flag.
6
Although the response about the flag provided a through and reasonable explanation on the cognitive level, it leaves out the deep psychological harm this flag causes to black Americans. Regardless of intention, please do not dismiss that impact. These symbols are dog whistles in this current climate. Our black family grew up with white neighbors who flew a confederate flag daily on their home, along with the American flag. It was a ugly reminder to us that we were not welcomed in that neighborhood and still haunts me to this day. That experience (and others of growing up in a all-whits neighborhood and attending all-white schools) is a catalyst for the anti-racism work I do to support whites to move beyond passive intolerance. I agree with Ibram X. Kendi in that you are either racist or anti-racist. These issues are not simple, but let’s not forget the psychological harm that these symbols cause and the importance of psychological safety for everyone in a democratic society.
20
“But what would you want the employer to do — fire him? Tell him he couldn’t bring a car with a flag on it to work?”
Firing is too far but telling an employee he can’t bring racist symbols to a work site is absolutely appropriate. Very different context but my husband, a journalist, can’t drive my car with its political bumper stickers while on a work assignment. When your car is on display as you arrive at a work site, it is part of your professional identity. The confederate flag-displaying worker is costing his employer good Will snd, perhaps, money.
27
Before he retired, my husband also was a journalist. Out of respect for his profession there were no political stickers on any of the family cars or signs on the lawn. Nor did we donate to political campaigns. Now that he’s retired it is our great pleasure to do all of the above. I wonder how many people who are eager to dump on “the media” are aware that many are scrupulous to maintain neutrality. Some even refrain from vot, although this seemed a bit too much for my husband.
9
On the flag: If you're the kind that could pull it off, maybe a non-confrontational conversation about how you feel uncomfortable about it and exploration about whether or not the worker would be OK with taking it down while he's at you house. Not telling him that he has to but just asking...Could be an opportunity for consciousness raising on both sides.
8
Brilliant piece about the Confederate flag. As with anything when we're faced with actions by someone else that make us uncomfortable -- offend our social or religious beliefs, for example -- we need to check our heart before doing anything. What's our motivation? When Jesus Christ cautions us not to draw attention to ourselves when we pray, He's not just talking about the Pharisees and hypocrites who put on a big show of praying: He's talking about any kind of display that makes one look (or even feel) superior to someone else. "Righteousness-signalling", as it were.
2
Would the homeowner who is distressed by the displaying of the Confederate flag think that it is also acceptable for another person to ask, for example, that a worker remove a LGBT or rainbow flag before coming on their property?
Why can't people just look the other way ...unless, OF COURSE, (we have to spell everything out these days).....it is blatant racial harassment going on and mind their own business?
10
@S : I'm sorry, the LGBT/rainbow flag has never been a symbol for hate. Why wouldn't a person share that they are uncomfortable with a symbol of hate on their own property? I'm not comfortable being uncomfortable in my own home. To see a workers truck with a confederate flag on his truck would definitely bring me to have a conversation with the boss. Would not ask him to remove it, but would request that he not park the vehicle on my property.
16
If a worker arrived with trump stickers all over his car or truck, and was wearing a MAGA hat, I would not let him work in - or on - my home. Same with a Confederate flag. Sometimes you have to vote with your wallet.
18
In the first case regarding the confederate flag the woman notes she is white and lives in a white state Maine. So it kinda surprises me since Maine is Yankee country
So I talked to an uncle in Maine (we are in California) and asked his opinion and he said if one is curious why someone in Yankee territory has a confederate flag, one can inquire in a nice manner. Personally the only flag we fly daily is the red white and blue USA flag.
Have to admit I am curious what the neighbors must think when they see a vehicle in the neighborhood with the confederate flag.
Am also curious if the boss of the business they had hired before which they hired again for the new job, had any idea the head of the crew was bringing someone who had the flag on their vehicle. Fact is the boss of the company may be unaware of this issue which could affect negatively on his business.
8
Re stolen boots. Yes, it can be argued that the host family should have taken steps to prevent theft, but it's a toss up because they may not have had shoes stolen before and had no reason to expect thefts. Further, it can be argued that any guest who had especially valuable boots should have asked that they be put away in a closet or other safe place. So, who should bear the risk in this situation? I would say the child whose boots were stolen and I would not ask the host family to pay. If there is fault here, besides the obvious fault of the thief, it falls equally on the host and the guest, and I think it would be bad manners for the guest to ask her host to pay. Let this be an object lesson for the daughter-guest.
Re Confederate battle flag. The roofing worker's truck with the flag is parked on the street. Though the letter writer doesn't like it, the worker has every right to fly that flag, just as the letter writer, for instance, could fly a Black Lives Matter flag at her house. Not every display of these flags is racist and meant to offend. Like the letter write, I'm a Mainer, too, but I believe in free expression and minding my own business unless there's a clear wrong that must be righted. The Confederate Battle Flag on a pickup truck doesn't rise to that level. Probably because of my old age and having been around a lot, I don't let other's symbols bother me.
As to the letter writers mentioning their race, what's the point? I wouldn't have.
6
@John
By your response my guess is that you're not Black.
12
@Ravenna What is it about my response that prompts you to write that?
3
I had a very similar situation here (in the South.) I took it upon myself to speak to neighbors who were displaying the Confederate flag in their yard. I like this family as a whole, and I’m sure they simply meant it as Southern pride. I went the very gentle route suggested here but received only anger back. Now the family doesn’t speak to me, even though they did remove the flag. I regret hurting their feelings and losing their friendship. But I still feel strongly that there is no place for such a racist symbol.
14
@Dudley Gilmer
You regret losing the friendship of racists who react with anger when you gently ask them to take down their racist flag?
11
LW2 - House parties, especially for young people often have uninvited guests. It’s part of the fun! When I was younger, I had amazing vintage shoes stolen during the winter at a party in NYC - walked partially home barefoot. It would never have occurred to me to hold the host responsible. I’ve had cashmere scarves stolen, a favorite jean jacket....not nice to think of, but people steal; even invited guests. The fact that the family is Asian is irrelevant, and the writer mentioning it leaves a bad taste. Expecting hosts to safeguard shoes, or coats thrown on a bed is ridiculous. So is an insurance claim. Mom needs to let it go.
11
I have a hard time relating to the Ethicist's answer for two reasons:
1. Why ask the worker what his reasons are for bringing the flag to a worksite? Just to annoy him? Are you prepared to accept and validate his answer? No. The point is that you don't want it there, regardless of any justification by the worker.
2. Why does the Ethicist discourage talking to the roofer's boss? Whether the boss would fire him or not is nothing you could know or be responsible for. And you need not feel obliged to contribute to "civic discourse" since the flag-flying roofer clearly feels no such obligation; he intends either to provoke or at least proclaim. Neither action starts a conversation.
13
Re: boot theft. Sadly, there are people who will steal from friends and strangers. The daughter learned a hard lesson when she lost her boots. It's now up to her to decide whether she'll keep her possessions in view or trust. We live in a society where morals are deteriorating. Shoplifting is prevalent in retail, even with cameras. Hotel workers steal from guests. Skimmers at restaurants take your credit cards info. It's a hard world we're living in, and anonymity makes it harder.
6
to LW1 - I feel similarly that as a white person, it is my civic and ethical responsibility to respond to racism, rather than letting it go. I understand why simply firing them isn't satisfying, and may also be risky, especially if the job is half done. Its also problematic to make decisions based on fear, though of course at times its necessary, and no shame if that's the case. There is a lot of discussion in the comments about whether or not or how to confront the worker or company with the offensiveness or unacceptability of their action. One possibility I haven't seen yet - besides being offended, you are also scared. How about expressing that the flag evokes fear when you see it, and see how they respond to you showing vulnerability and humanity to them? Have a little personal story ready about how it got to mean something scary for you. At best, it could disarm them, giving them a face saving way to take down the flag as a consideration for you and possibly reflect on the impact the flag had on you in their own time. At worst, you'll have indesputably unprovoked threatening or disrespectful behavior to report if needed. You've given no offense, and taken none for them to react to. You might check out David Campt and whiteallytoolkit.com
1
I appreciated that you brought up the additional issue at the end of your response to LW2, regarding mentioning that the family was Asian. This made me wonder how I could respond to friends who unnecessarily mention a person's race when recounting a story. And there we are back in the LW1's issue. I don't think it would go over well, though, to say "What's up with mentioning the guy's race?" Wonder how to handle the situation. Does anyone reading this comment have a suggestion?
1
@Diane Koosed
Being from an Asian country they probably never even considered that their guests' shoes might be stolen. But this is the USA where petty theft of peoples' belongings seems to be OK....
4
Shoe's First. Just guessing but my hunch is that in the host's family's culture shoe's were simply not taken. We, collectively, should be apologizing to them for the societal culture we've created. How could this incident be used to build cultural/relationship bridges. My guess is that the learning from an open discussion about the cultural norms in a genuine spirit of inquiry could produce values far beyond the price of the shoes. What does it say about us that we value ownership of stuff greater than the chance of human to human understanding.
As for the flag. The whole issue of symbols is well, fascinating. For example... what is the range of thinking/emotions that we as citizens attached to the American Flag. It means different things to different people including those who some might described at opposite or extreme ends of the political spectrum. The thought or question occurred would I be triggered to ask "what does that USA Flag you're displaying mean to you and why do you display it for others to see?"
Is the symbol displayed for the purpose of inclusion or exclusion?
1
Re: Flags. Imo, the boss should explain to his/her workers that decals, bumber stickers, etal, are their right. However, when their vehicle is driven to a work site, those displays may anger the customer and cause loss of the job not to mention physical confrontation. Also, word can get around that 'so and so' hires people who are (fill in the blank) and this may cause loss of business. The onus is on the employer to protect his business and his worker.
13
I find the idea that the homeowners should replace the shoes to be absurd. Yes, there were uninvited guests, which happens at just about every party teenager's party. We don't even know that it was an uninvited guest who took the shoes. What reasonable measures should the parents have taken to prevent theft? Issue claim checks? Provide individual lockers?
16
@Jeff Lichtman provide a closet and check on it occasionally. That's what. I'm
3
The response on the confederate flag was an attempt to be nuanced about something that is not. The confederate flag is hate speech. Discerning the users intention is irrelevant. Simply because someone may not know the facts behind the flags origins & the impact of its usage doesn’t mean it’s something the questioner needs to equivocate about. Would you have given the same advice if the person was using racial slurs? Also, a white person’s confrontation of things like this is important to our society’s progression. The offended group can’t be the only ones to say something. The waffling nature of this response seems to equate the offensiveness of the flag with the misguided or at worse racist position of the flag flyer. Lastly, as the customer she has the clear right to request that symbols she finds offensive not be displayed while doing work for her. While it would be nice to have intellectual conversations regarding such behavior, it relies on the other party’s introspectiveness. Her goal does not have to be to change the mind of the flag flyer simply to not have offensive symbols displayed while work on her property is being done. This response is more bothersome when the Ethicist said it was unnecessary to say the parents in the next question were Asian (which was at least factual). Using someone’s race as a descriptor is something that writer should stop but asking an offensive symbol be removed requires an overwrought evaluation and no clear path forward.
10
Thanks for referencing Percival Everett's wickedly funny short story The Appropriation of Cultures. I would be doing that here if you hadn't. I think the Selected Shorts reading is the best way to experience it. Google and ye shall find. (Hint: it's on Youtube)
So the letter writer could go up to the worker and remark how progressive he was to be flying the Black Power flag in a nearly all-white state. Would be fun to watch the discussion.
3
I would've felt offended and embarrassed to have a truck with a Confederate flag on it near my house even if it wasn't in the driveway. Luckily my husband would've too. I'm sure we would've talked to the foreman or business owner to ask that the person leave or simply cancel the job. I wouldn't want a person like that working on my house anyway. It's also possible the foreman didn't like the flag either but felt he couldn't say anything unless a customer objected so maybe it would've given wanted leverage. You're paying for a job to be done. It doesn't include having to feel offended for however long it took to complete that job. Businesses should not have employees that display offensive flags, signs, bumper stickers, or clothing nor employees who swear excessively, make rude comments, smoke, etc. It's not professional and to me would be a clear sign that we need to find another roofer or whatever the case may be.
9
@Renée
I mostly agree. I believe the customer should have respectfully spoken to the worker and cancelled the job. There's no need to have an intellectual discussion. If the worker asks why, say that the flag makes you uncomfortable and you would prefer it not be associated with work being done on or near your home. Because that's the truth. The presence of the flag reflects on the person's home.
However, I wouldn't say "I wouldn't want a person like that working on my house." The quality of the person is not the issue. Only the flag.
In that way the worker understands that the flag causes repercussions that affect him. If he offers to remove the flag in order to retain the job, accept the offer, and let him work. But do not ask him to remove the flag for you. That's controlling.
If he leaves, let the business owner know why the job was cancelled. Again, just say the flag displayed near your home made you uncomfortable. It's up to the owner to figure out what to do on his end.
In this way, it's a clear line of choice and consequence. Nothing about the worker or business personally, just the flag.
8
@bookworm
Flying a flag, of any persuasion, says a lot about the person flying it.
5
Regarding the flag. I can’t see any good outcome from talking to the worker or contractor about the Confederate flag. They have their opinion and beliefs and will not likely be swayed by anything you say, and it will just turn into anger. It’s like telling someone with a Trump bumper sticker on their car how opposed you are to Trump and why they are wrong. That would likely be an unpleasant outcome too. Just pay the contractor when the job is finished and be done with it. It’s not as if the worker is having a white power rally in the yard.
7
I'm almost always enlightened by Prof. Appiah's thinking, but here I was also enormously impressed by the simple beauty of his final sentence, "In a multiethnic society like ours, not bringing up race and ethnicity when it isn’t relevant can be a salutary practice."
7
I didn't realize that it's become common practice in many homes today to ask guests to remove their shoes, so I don't think there was anything wrong with the letter writer mentioning that the hosts were Asian. Is identifying a person by ethnicity, race, gender, or religion now considered a sign of prejudice on the part of the person doing the identifying? I do think it would have been appropriate for the mother to mention to the hosts that they could file a claim with their insurance company and reimburse the $200. The Ethicist may not realize that $200 is a lot of money for some people, and the girl's birthday gift isn't going to be replaced. I would love to know if the hosts took responsibility for getting the barefoot girl home. And I wouldn't let my daughter attend another teenage party at the house where the hosts aren't monitoring the guests.
7
@Linda 1950s. Virginia. Common practice, not "become." Nobody wanted dirt and mud tracked into the living room.
Place settings and cloth napkins at dinner, too.
6
@kenneth
Many people wear sandals in good weather, and don't wear stockings or socks in colder weather. So they're walking around houses in bare feet? Athletes' foot still exists. I don't view barefoot people at the dinner table as particularly sanitary, or attractive, cloth napkins or not.
7
I couldn’t believe the person asking about the Confederate flag. She should stay away from the South, where it is ubiquitous, and probably needs to make sure that she is so perfect that she can judge others, even if their transgression is something considered culturally offensive. We once found a crucifix museum in Portugal with a Rebel flag on top. It is ingrained in cultures and in this case was associated with music.
6
@SchnauzerMom Sorry! The male ancestors on both sides of my family fought and died in the Civil War. I am virtually the only one in my family who lives outside the South.
Nobody in my family flies that flag
I've never seen any of my relatives with one of those flags. I wouldn't have complained to his boss, but I certainly have asked a man in Maine why he had the flag on his truck!
That flag is not ingrained in anybody's culture. My family doesn't use it and I am not a fan of Yankees flying it for who knows what reason.
9
@SchnauzerMom I must congratulate you for never having "judged others." You're literally one in a million.
9
I sing with a group of amateurs whose focus is folk music accompanied by enthusiastic musicians. At a recent meeting I noticed that some of our folk songs are in fact Southern sympathizer songs with refrains that are pro rebel and sad about the losses. I spoke up and was told to chill about the sentiment. It’s just a song. It has a time and place. I am not happy with this but will not give up the group, just avoid singing those songs.
2
@Johanna The Civil War was a devastating tragedy for many white people who were left widowed, or orphaned or who lost their sons in a brutal war.
The war would have been an even worse tragedy, if the South had won and slavery had been preserved.
I hope you can sing the songs of mourning for all the dead and praise for the Union soldiers of all races who fought for victory.
6
@Johanna
I belonged to a music group too....and we decided that along with "Dixie" and other songs of that ilk, "I Don't Want Her You Can Have Her She's Too Fat For Me" wasn't appropriate to sing either....why hurt the feelings of those in your audience?
5
There are many Southerners who are proud of their region and are not racists, so LW1's assumptions about the contractor's motives may be completely wrong. Nevertheless, she is entitled to decide not to use this contractor in the future and to explain to the boss why she has done so (I agree that it would be prudent to wait until the job was done). But my view is content neutral; I would take the same position if the offending symbol were a Black Lives Matter poster that the customer viewed as impugning the local police.
Professor Appiah, would you take the same position about reimbursement if the missing item were a coat or an umbrella instead of shoes? As a guest in someone's home I don't hold them responsible for the safety of my property; if I don't like the way in which they treat guests I don't return.
5
@Joel you are ignoring that they insisted that shoes be removed. This is a good practice. No issue. But if you oblige people to shed their shoes you acquire responsibility for their safety.
2
I live in NorCal, where taking off shoes is common. In some places taking off shoes is less common and even considered rude. Qualifying it as an Asian home may make a difference to a person unfamiliar with the custom. Many people provide socks — clean or disposable — next to the shoe area.
If I were a parent, I would be more concerned that there was no monitoring of the people coming and going. It takes a minute for things to get out of hand — I know from experience.
23
@Nanette I agree that the fact that the party was unmonitored was the big concern here. The parent whose daughter lost her $200 boots is lucky that wasn't the only negative consequence. (By the way, if you can't afford to lose $200 boots, you probably shouldn't be buying them.) I think you all just have to chalk this loss up to experience.
7
@FromTheWest If you can't afford to lose them, you shouldn't afford to buy them. That's ridiculous. People often save up to buy something special that they can't afford on the spot, whether it's a house or a trip or a pair of boots or anything else.
13
@FromTheWest What loss? I seem to have missed that part of the story.
Mr. Appiah is correct about qualifying the hosts as Asian. More and more, shoeless homes are becoming commonplace. The reasons range from avoiding damage to expensive flooring or carpeting, to preventing allergens from being tracked inside. Sometimes, the reason goes beyond taste and into necessity - someone undergoing chemo must avoid exposure to any possible toxins. Or a family has a baby who is crawling all over whatever your shoes brought in. On the other hand, people may have valid reasons to keep their shoes on, from disability to disease. There needs to be some compromise and oversight. But this is not limited to any ethnic group.
14
@Diane Taking one's shoes off before entering a home is a norm in many European countries. It's also a norm in my home. My kids and grandkids automatically remove their shoes without being reminded. I wouldn't necessarily require it at a large gathering of friends.
5
@Marilyn I grew up in the Appalachian region of VA/WV. We always took our shoes off before entering. It hasn't ruined my adult life...at least not in these first 60 years.
5
Regarding the Case of the Missing Shoes, as someone who has a Thai family and a house in Thailand, I do think the ethnicity of the home owners is relevant- but would help to know which country in Asia we are talking about. Asia is a huge continent, and contrary to popular American myth, not all Asians are the same ( Mr. Appiah, please take note!). While removing outdoor shoes is common courtesy in most Asian countries, some take the courtesy more seriously than others. In Japan, for example, courtesy and consideration for others are a way of life - and the difference with the United States is striking. As an aikido yudansha who practised in dojos around the world for almost 2 decades, I can say without hesitation that removal of shoes is
non-negotiable in dojos and other Japanese environments. Refusing to remove shoes indicates a gross lack of respect on many levels, and in Japan, that is a serious problem. Indeed, I cannot think of a single dojo that would let you through the door without taking off your shoes. The same is true of private Japanese residences, many of which will prove slippers for indoor use.
Indeed, I can think of oniy one exception - and the non-Japanese perpetrator was summarily castigated by other non-Japanese guests. The bottom line is that culture and good manners are important, and you should respect the culture and manners of the people you are visiting -.anywhere in the world. Otherwise, stay at home, please!:)
6
If that were my contractor and his worker were displaying such a flag, I would honor my contract with the company. Pay him if the work had been done properly.
Then I would explain to the company owner that you will not be calling them again. I would tell him that the flag is no different than burning a cross on a front lawn.
It is a simple solution and you have voted with your wallet. You are not going to convince the truck owner of anything. But you can influence the owner. He in turn, can say to his employee, if he wishes to, that such flag waving is unacceptable on the job. Or not. You have done what you can.
35
As a professor teaching Strategies for Business Communication at SUNY/FIT, I agree with the suggestion that the poster should wait until the job is completed before raising the issue,
The idea of a possible conflict with people working on your house is not appealing, and I think Mr. Appiah’s suggestion of a philosophical discussion with the workers to be asking for trouble. Far better to wait until the work is completed and to then have a talk with the boss - once the payment is made. This is a problem for the boss to resolve, not you. That much said, you have every right to take your business elsewhere if the matter is not resolved to your satisfaction. In general, if anyone working for a contractor does anything you find inappropriate, you should talk with the person you are paying to do the job. This is a professional issue, not a philosophical one.
Peace,’
12
@Bob Bruce Anderson
Absolutely. This is what I would do. But -you have to be sure you tell the owner why you will not be rehiring him again. Otherwise you haven't done anything at all.
7
@tedfolke "...you have every right to take your business elsewhere if the matter is not resolved to your satisfaction. "
Oh. Thanks.
Taking one’s shoes off when entering a home is the norm in Canada. I think it’s extremely odd to wear something that treks through dust, dirt, mud etc into a clean house. That said, I think the parents of the girl who lost her shoes could say something in general to the parents in an offhand way down the road and see what happens.
This happened to us on a smaller scale when my daughter was a Spark (in Girl Guides). All the girls were at a function in a church and told to take off their winter boots. As one of the Leaders, I had to clean up and my daughter and I were the last ones to leave. My daughters boots were gone and an identical set two sizes smaller were in their place. I had to carry her through the snow to the car - and find boots in her size mid-winter. I did contact the other Leaders to see if the boots could be found...no such luck.
7
@Shelley Kowalchuk "Taking one’s shoes off when entering a home is the norm in Canada. I think it’s extremely odd to wear something that treks through dust, dirt, mud etc into a clean house." I QUITE AGREE. I GREW UP IN THE MOUNTAINS OF APPALACHIA, AND WE KIDS ALWAYS TOOK OFF OUR SHOES UPON ENTERING. THEN WE TOOK OUR PLACES ON THE SOFAS AND CHAIRS STILL WEARING EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAD BEEN ROLLING IN THE MUD DURING RECESS.
5
If I am paying the workers, I have every right to ask that
the flag not be displayed in front of my home ...and parking it further down the street is not acceptable.
21
@Bello Giorno I agree wholeheartedy with the first part. Your home is your property, and you are rightly concerned with how it looks (roof included). But "down the street" is not for you to decide. It's either public property or someone else's private property.
I've been to Charlottesville-- there's more than one roofer.
4
@kenneth the worker has every right to park his car in front of the house. He has no right to work in or on your house.
1
@kenneth Of course he has a 'right' to park anywhere on the street. However, I'd make it clear if he wants the job ( his reason for being parked on my block) he can't display the flag. His decision. Yup, plenty of roofers in Cville!
About the shoes: if this was my daughter, I would think she was responsible for leaving her shoes in an unsupervised area at a party that had uninvited guests. And did the parents check out the party situation ahead of time (who would be there, was there adequate adult supervision?) Yes it would be nice if the host parents offered to pay for the shoes, but I would not convey to my daughter that they "should."
14
How about diabetics? We diabetics should not walk indoors or outdoors without wearing shoes due to our diminished ability to feel sensations in the soles of our feet. That could lead to cuts, abrasions, bruises, and infections. Several times, I have been invited to homes where the hosts had the guests take their shoes off. I always explained my situation and asked if they had slippers I could wear (unlikely, since I am a size 14). They all said no, and two said that they don't even wear slippers at home. I thanked them all for inviting me and left. Of course, I was never invited to their homes again
9
@D How onerous is it to carry a pair of size 4 slippers with you? Many are advertised as foldable with containers. Shouldn't we all be aware of our personally specific limitations and prepare to manage is such situations?
47
@D This isn't just a situation for diabetics. There are several reasons why someone shouldn't (or can't) remove their shoes. Just one example: a person wearing a walking boot for an injured foot. I am unable to put my shoes on without an appliance, which is too large to carry with me. If I can't keep my shoes on, I can't go inside.
4
@D
I too don't want shoes worn in my house
After contemplating the inconvenience and issues associated with a variety of people in attempting to comply with my wants this is what I have come up with.
I have prepared the following things to make it easier for guests and repair people who were, after all, Invited to my house by me:
#a bench and pouf outside the front door entry, with an indoor outdoor carpet underneath them
#also outside, a basket full of cloth/heavy gripper bottom surfaced elasticized shoe covers also in a variety of sizes and top surface patterns (they are sure footed, washable, and re-useable)
#then inside, a calvary various types and sizes of house slippers
ordinarily a few people can leave their shoes outside
when I have a party I unfold two\
" very tall light weight shoe racks and line my small entry hall with them
Over time many of my neighbors have asked about the shoe covers because while they do wear shoes in their own homes they have now come to see they prefer repairman to get their work boots contained!
3
"we should make sure that our victories are, in the end, more than symbolic" I agree with this statement wholeheartedly but disagree with the apparent dismissal of the woman's struggle to respond to something that was an affront to her seemingly core values. Since she and her husband are paying this worker's wages through his employer, and said worker's truck was parked in front of their house, I believe she could have respectfully told the individual that the presence of the Confederate flag in front of her house was offensive to her personally and not representative of her values and she would appreciate him removing it while it was parked in front of her house. Why should she have to give up self in order to placate a worker at her home? The answer seems to miss some important variables involving power dynamics as well. What is the ethical reason she should subsume her value system? Sounds like placating to me.
49
@Jean Well said
3
Yes. And husband is afraid, possibly justified. It's how racist thugs claim power. Subtext of threat and fear.
8
I want to highlight the ethicist's superb response about the
Confederate flag issue. The all important point the ethicist is making is "what do you want to happen here?" When I was young (now 65), it seemed as if our schools taught ethics, the US constitution, and basic questions about what it means to live in and nurture a democratic society far more than they are called upon to do today. Today we are under attack from Trump and his enablers inside of the country. Education and defense of the norms of democracy are essential to defend our country. Thinking through the implications of actions takes more than an (unpresidential) demagogic tweet. Democracy is messy and requires commitment, mutual respect, recognition that our neighbors are not our enemies, and the conviction that truth, facts and science in all domains matter (including the domain of social science.) Through columns like The Ethicist, the Washington Post is doing a superb job. Thank you!
28
@Markus F. Robinson Ummmm...isn't The Ethicist published in the New York Times, not the Washington Post? Otherwise, I concur - and think BOTH papers are doing superb jobs.
3
Oops, I read both the Washington Post and the New York Times. Both excellent papers. Of course the Ethicist is printed by the New York Times...
1
Actually, if you are Black Muslim Jewish Gay Hispanic, then many of your neighbors ARE your enemies in their own clearly stated words. They want you gone. Placate them at your peril.
4
Re: Boots. I am Asian and I wonder if the parents were newcomers to North America and uncertain about the customs here. Perhaps they thought that everyone who comes to the door to join the party who seem to know others who are already there, is welcome. (This is a Filipino custom of hospitality.). Friendly advice as to how to manage uninvited guests and how to mitigate the risk of uninvited guests might be useful. Another point to discuss is that an assumption is being made that the thief is necessarily someone who was uninvited. What if a CCTV camera showed it was a friend who was the culprit? Would the host family still be held liable for keeping all the footwear safe?
15
@Evelyn Tan if this happened in my house, I would have paid for the boots. period end of story
6
My neighbor (in an upscale, mostly liberal Mass. community) displayed a confederate flag for years. It always gave me the creeps when I walked by, but I never said anything. One day, the minister of our church arranged to meet him to have a conversation about what that flag meant to him, and what it meant to people walking by. Although they disagreed on a number of issues, they parted amicably, although he said he had no intentions of taking it down. Until two days later, when an American flag appeared in its place, and the confederate flag was never to be seen again. This showed me that a civilized discourse, where people are authentically curious about and open to others' viewpoints, can change minds.
122
@Nancy SM : I'm from CT. now living in Alabama. The confederate flag is a regular site in the south. Its displayed on license plates, poles, stickers, etc... I was shocked when I first moved here (Atlanta area) to see this. There are shops devoted to selling that propaganda, Kennesaw, GA and off Hwy 20 in Alabama, and probably more. Visit Stone Mountain in Atlanta and listen to the tale they designed in a film about the Civil War. They have memorials/shrines for the Civil War in places you'd never expect (Corporate office bldgs). While waiting to board a plane (ATL aiport) for a visit to CT. I met a man who was here on business for the first time. During our conversation he said to me "I've never seen so many trophy's for a war they lost. The only trophy I'd want for losing anything is losing weight". I laughed, its so true. But its another world here. Indeed, we all must offer/invite civilized conversations, they can change an individuals viewpoint. Maybe not right away, but like the minister who planted a seed. I've planted several seeds and shared facts with born and bred southerners, who never heard of them, its "how we were raised" they've told me. It takes only one conversation at a time.
9
This is one of the best explanations for handling a difficult "political" and ethical situation I've encountered. Takes me back to my ethics and logic classes when studying philosophy as an undergrad decades ago, yet with a very practical twist.
Inviting dialogue instead of forcing controversy is incredibly difficult these days -- and the approach here is civil, though outcomes are never predictable. Thank you for an excellent analysis!
28
As another writer indicated, power dynamic and fear is the Elephant in the Room. Strap up, and THEN have your nice civil discourse.
4
Taking shoes off when entering someone's home is also a custom in Canada.
19
@Don Stoneman
And Wisconsin, and probably most cold places where shoes and boots walk on salt and sand several months every year.
3
@Don Stoneman Also in Alaska
1
Regarding LW1 about the Confederate Flag:
Regardless of how I feel about displaying the flag, what I found so satisfying in Mr. Appiah's response was his attention to the question of the ethics in the situation rather than, as he so often does (see LW2), give advice as if this were some kind of social column (the Times already has one of those). This was a well thought-out consideration of the rights and wrongs of the situation, with a carefully calibrated and deliberated assessment with no specific recommendation for its remedy. Thus, rather than Appiah providing an answer, the reader is left to ponder the various positions and consider the underlying issues rather than their resolutions.
19
If I am running a construction site, I can make the rules for health, safety, quality and racial tolerance. I would simply say that we do not allow symbols that could interpreted as hate speech to displayed on site. What you do in the at home, or in your own time is your business, but if you are on-site, these symbols need to be covered up.
Your roofing repair is a worksite. You and your husband are the customers. You have control of the subcontractors and the workers via the primary contract.
To sum up my thoughts, a request to cover up the stars and bars while working on your project is reasonable and ethical.
76
Thankyou for defining the difference between personal and professional space and conduct. In the early 90's our family built a house in the country. A laborer brought his boom box and blasted Rush Limbaugh.
It was our first exposure to that rant and we spoke to the contractor, explaining that we didn't feel the language appropriate for our young kids. The laborer refused to turn it off. The contractor removed him from the crew. It was the right thing to do. It also improved the moods of other crew members!
59
The vehicle was parked off site on a public street. Sanctimonious scolding stops at the property line.
7
@Zamboanga remove the recommend itwas an accident.
The guy can park where he wishes. But he has no God given right to work on my roof
8
salutary
I learned a new word. Thanks.
7
Under no uncertain circumstances should the confederate flag be displayed.
If a person rolls up to your yard with a truck or car that displays the confederate flag, you need to order them off.
And you need to tell them to never come back.
23
Perhaps I'm just exhausted but I don't feel I will change a stranger's or relative stranger's mind about certain beliefs. I have stopped supporting people financially i.e.tradespeople, doctors, who have made me uncomfortable by expressing their beliefs. It's as simple as that for me.
69
@WF Normally I handle such situations exactly the same way, but I wouldn't have wanted that flag in front of my house for even one minute. I would have told the worker to remove it or I would speak to his boss. The choice would be his
9
@WF FoxNews on the TV in offices, restaurants, etc. I walked out of a dentist waiting room (my husband was the patient) and emailed the office that I was in my car if they needed me. The opinion show, not news, was attacking my beliefs and I refused to listen any longer.
22
@Joyce Owsley I'm with you.
3
The stars and stripes was once the flag of a country that condone and promoted slavery. It no longer does, nor do any of the southern states. People hang on to symbols for reasons they might not fully understand; "the wall" comes to mind. But you have an ethical right to approach the worker with the flag, and he has the ethical right to enter into your discussion or not; and he has the right to disagree with your interpretation; you have the ethical right and to not hire companies whose employees display the flag.
21
@Roger
The American flag is also the flag of a country that condoned and supported slavery...
Just saying.
4
@Roger actually the star and bars was never the official flag of the confederacy (it was one of the many battle flags of the confederacy) and was adopted as a racist symbol of the struggle for white supremacy long after the civil war when the South was establishing Jim Crow and reacting to the freedom of black Americans. As reconstruction fell apart and Jim Crow became entrenched, the stars and bars gained in popularity. At this time, it was added to many flags in the south for example as a way to intimidate Blacks from voting and solidifying the “Lost Cause” mythology. That is the fallacy of the Southern Heritage argument. It is lost on many who want to say that it’s not a symbol of hate and racism. It springs from hate and racism. The failure of many people to truly understand how the flag came into usage allows for these conversations that attempt to normalize its usage and act like the issue of the flag is a simple disagreement over symbology. It’s not a simple disagreement - the confederate flag (stars and bars) has always been a symbol of hate whether those that use it today fully understand it or not. With that said, I understand and agree with your point that is a symbol of slavery, racism and oppression.
5
@S
It's also the flag of a country that fought and died to eliminate slavery.
2
LW1: It is hard to imagine the worker did not know he was being provocative, at best, and outright racist at worst. He surely did not give a hoot about how a black person might feel seeing the flag displayed. Southern pride in Maine? Unlikely. Even if the person really did have ancestors who fought for the confederate army, that does not justify displaying the flag. The south tried to secede because of slavery and fought to preserve it. Don't believe me, look at the Declaration of Causes of the various seceding states. You can google it. Lynyrd Skynyrd fan? Arguably justifiable in the 1970's or the early 1980's. But we are long past that being a valid excuse to display the flag. I don't know what LW1 should have done about it. I'll leave that discussion to others.
LW2: If I didn't know better, I might suspect this letter was a joke. Sex and the City anyone? The episode where she loses her shoes, called a Woman's Right to Shoes, was an iconic episode of an iconic show. Ethicist is right, plenty of people ask guests to remove their shoes, it is not specific to Asians.
24
Offer booties for those who prefer not to remove their shoes. Ours is a shoe - free house for a number of reasons. I advise visitors before-hand but I always have booties available
29
@WF Thank you. I’ve had friends indicate they prefer I go shoeless in their home, but they have pets — so I know all sorts of unseen stuff I prefer not to walk in is on their floors. Booties/slippers are a perfect solution.
Also, re: the above LW2, I wish a seemingly shaming tone had not been used to tell her there was no need to mention the family was Asian. I took it that the writer was trying to make clear this was a family’s custom, not a preference. Let us also give the writer the benefit of the doubt.
6
There was a whole episode of Sex and the City about expensive ($400?) shoes stolen from a baby shower after the hostess insisted that Carrie take her shoes off.
Spoiler alert: The hostess said she wasn’t responsible, and who pays that kind of money for shoes anyway?
Let’s just say that Carrie figured out how to get the hostess to reimburse her.
The polite thing to do is to ask guests to either take their shoes off, or, if they don’t want to, then wear these lovely provided shoe covers. People have all sorts of reasons for not wanting to take their shoes off; it’s rude not to give them an alternative.
35
The mom writing about the shoes is crazy— and so is the author for agreeing that the family should pay.
35
I'd be very leery of associating with the family of the party host or having your daughter around their daughter much more since they neglected to offer compensation for your daughter's shoes ( I iwas picturing Ugg boots actually ) that were taken from the house.
You can place a safe bet that if they found property- of their own missing after the party, the police would have been summoned PDQ. So how is this any different- except in starkly demonstrating their lack of concern for their guest's plight ? At the very least , they should have made an offer or restoration. But now at least you know what they are.
6
@JaneK Calling the police would have been a way over reaction. I doubt the people throwing the party would have called the police over a missing pair of shoes. How absurd.
37
@Robert And, how about the insurance company claim for $200?
4
@JaneK I think the larger issue is that the hosting parents weren't monitoring who was entering their home uninvited.
3
The father assumes it was an uninvited guest who took his daughter's boots. Why?
The father notes the hosts were Asian because he finds the concept of shoe removal odd. My childhood friend's mom was an Irish immigrant who scrubbed the kitchen floor on her knees every night. All shoes stayed on the back porch. Presumably the father has his guests remove their coats and place them in the hall closet. What precautions does he take to make sure the coats are monitored?
22
Funny you should mention coats. Several years ago I attended an invitation-only event at an exclusive country club. (I was not a member of the club but that is not relevant.) All the guests were "comfortable" financially, and most were over 60. There were two places to leave one's coat: an attended coat room and the sitting area of the ladies' room. I used the latter because the former had a line.
I left near the end of the event. I discovered that my winter coat was missing. It was relatively new and had cost about $800. There was, however, a similar coat a size or 2 larger than mine. I assumed that the owner of that coat had taken mine by mistake, except that mine would have been too small for her. (BTW, I wonder if the missing shoes fit their new owner.) Surely she would have realized her mistake, or would soon enough, and would return the coat. I informed the club and left the larger coat.
My coat never turned up, not even after the hosts kindly emailed the guest list. I dropped the subject after that. Hard as it was to accept, it was clear to me that no-one was at fault except the person who took the coat. I had assumed the risk by leaving my coat in the unattended room.
37
@Rosie Red
Years ago at a NY club, might have been Studio 54, I has handed a beautiful fox fur coat by the coat check girl instead of my cheap cloth coat. I deliberated for a minute before returning the fur and telling them it was the wrong coat. My soul rests easy.
4
@Ravenna Alas, the foxes' souls do not.
3
The dude displaying the confederate flag was trying to provoke.
The boots. It's just like in that Sex & the City where Carrie's Manolos were taken… .
7
The confederate flag isn’t racists nothing needs to be done
11
If a person has certain orthopedic characteristics such as different leg lengths or foot/ankle abnormality or injury, then removal of shoes upon entering a friend's house would not be in anybody's interest. So keep the shoes on and offer a simple explanation if needed. Similarly, if shoes are expensive, as here, why not just keep them on and be ready with a simple "excuse" for not removing them?
3
@Helen Hunt If you have reason to believe that your going to be asked to remove your shoes before entering someone's home (Asian or not), why not wear a cheap pair of shoes? I noticed when I was in India, where you unually had to remove your footwear to enter a shop or restaurant (or a home) even people who wore expensive clothing & jewelry tended to wear flip-flops on their feet - they're unlikely to be stolen.
12
@Jenifer Wolf Helen Hunt is talking about orthopedic problems that would make it painful for the guest to walk around without shoes. That was the issue, not fear of having shoes stolen.
2
@Helen Hunt In the case of orthopedic issues, it would be good if the guest, knowing that shoe removal may be the norm, could carry a packet of anti-bacterial wipes to clean the guest's shoe soles, or some shoe covers.
2
Construction workers arent always pc and if this woman ever heard a bunch of us in private she'd be in therapy. But we do our jobs and are happy about what we do. If this woman is so smart she should fix her own roof.
34
Or she could find another contractor who might be concerned with not offending people.
60
@Donnie The character of Nicki did just that on the TV series Six Feet Under.
2
@Donnie The flag was not private.
29
Your reasoning implies that someone who displays the Nazi flag because they love Wagner should not have to live with the consequences of his choice. No one is required to pay someone whose public opinions they abhor to work on their private residence. Regardless of the reason the man displays the Confederate flag, it represents an aristocracy built on the backs of slave labor camps, where anyone who did not ‘know their place’ was violently punished, sold or lynched.
It is unfair to put the burden on the homeowner to discover the reason her worker displays the Confederate flag. If he is too ill informed or too much in denial to understand what it represents, or if he agrees with all it represents, that is his problem, not hers. If she is not concerned for her personal safety, she should inform the contractor that she does not want a displayer of the Confederate flag working at her HOME. If the man who displays representation of slave labor and subsequent apartheid wishes to civilly defend his choice, she can choose to hear him out or not.
63
My liberal contractor uses as a subcontractor a man whose bumper stickers proclaim politics I find disagreeable. Over the years I've come to know this man, have employed him repeatedly, and have had many pleasant interactions on topics of mutual interest. I could say the same about friends and relatives - we stay away from areas where we know there is no chance of consensus, and focus on common ground. The notion that one is obliged to school someone with whom he or she has no personal relationship on a subject which does not affect him or her personally seems to me to be precisely the sort of attitude which contributes to the image of liberals as arrogant elites obsessed with political correctness. The chances of changing a relative stranger's views in this way are virtually nil; indeed I would expect it to have the opposite effect. Instead, I try to embody liberal values in hopes of combating the image of my tribe that's promulgated on right-wing sites. It is troubling to see how quickly liberal paranoia comes to the fore in fantasies about sabotage of the job, getting shot, etc. People are complex and their stories are usually surprising. Why do my contractor, and I, continue to employ that particular subcontractor? Because he is the best in his trade, has an extraordinary work ethic, and is a thoroughly pleasant person to have on a job.
60
A bumper sticker might be less obvious than a flag. I do not want the confederate flag in my driveway.
4
@Margaret - you first state the sub displays "bumper stickers [which] proclaim politics I find disagreeable", and then contradict yourself with "he ... is a thoroughly pleasant person to have on a job". Which is it, disagreeable (do you really think you can separate the person from the beliefs he is so willing so share with/force upon people) or thoroughly pleasant? He can't be both, and while I agree with your contention that it isn't your responsibility to attempt to school him in his beliefs, I think you're well within your rights to ask him to get to work in his other vehicle, the one he uses when he doesn't want to harass/irritate/offend/threaten other people. And really, calling the views of persons who don't want symbols of hatred and fear and death displayed "liberal paranoia" just constitutes "fighting words" - not helpful to a civilized discourse. The symbols (bumper stickers) are displayed expressly to engender fear, anger, repulsion, among people who do not think that way, and to call out to those who DO think that way, "hey, I'm one of you", in an attempt to make them more mainstream, more acceptable. That's not liberal paranoia, that's how we got the horrible Trump and cronies infesting our government openly.
Perhaps punishing him, and your contractor, and yourself, by refusing to employ him, is going too far. But maybe not, if he and your contractor are told the reason why he is not welcome on your jobsite.
2
@Margaret
Your argument doesn't apply as the confederate flag doesn't represent politics, it represents racism.
7
I say leave this one alone. Construction workers often have all sorts of things on their vehicles that possibly offend someone across the politically spectrum. I don’t see the point of starting an argument with a construction worker. I think the husband is right on this one. Nothing positive is going to come from making an issue of this.
43
@James - And her roof will continue to leak.
@James I agree, but maybe tell the owner of the construction company you will not be hiring him again, and the reason why.
3
@James
No argument needed. Just cancel the job and find another roofer if your polite request to remove the flag while working on your property is met with defiance.
2
So was it a small sticker of the flag on his window or a full 4'x6' rebel flag blowing in the breeze? I imagine it was the former but of course the NYT illustration portrays the latter.
9
@DesertCard What difference does that make? None to me.
15
@DesertCard
The writer says "drove a truck with a Confederate battle flag prominently displayed". I wouldn't consider a 3" by 5"window sticker to be much of a "prominent display".
4
@DesertCard I doubt it was a small sticker.
4
These stories sound like they’re written by white people ‘humbly’ self congratulating themselves on their wokeness and disguising it as a problem that needs solving. Bless. The shoes one in particular is placing their privilege of owning $200 shoes (kids shoes?!) on a family who wasn’t even really around at the party. If you want your kid to keep their property, keep it on them or don’t send it with them.
Also, fwiw, I’m not Asian and require kids to take their shoes off in my home, too. This attempt cultural sensitivity is just a show-off.
43
@IDontKnowAboutYou I am European-American of Scandinavian descent. I grew up on a farm. That meant mud. Lots of it. No shoes in the main house! I agree with you, it has nothing to do with being Asian.
52
@IDontKnowAboutYou What a bitter ungracious way of judging a complete stranger (just by the color of her skin?) trying to figure out how to walk her talk in the world. As Barack Obama has said numerous times “woke/call-out” culture is not activism. Purity tests are counter-productive.
8
@IDontKnowAboutYou
The girl wasn't "a kid," she was an adolescent. The boots were probably Ugg boots that teenagers love, and they were a birthday gift. It's possible the parent scrimped and saved for months to buy them. Haven't you ever bought yourself or your child something a little expensive as a special treat? You don't have to be a wealthy white person to have done that.
9
Does anybody else remember when the ACLU defended the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie, IL?
Today, 41% of college students--including 60% of women and 28% of men--believe Free Speech should take a back seat to promoting inclusion.
41% of Americans think "hate speech" shouldn't be protected.
Part of this trend is seeing people losing their jobs over something others are offended by--even if they only overheard it.
It seems to me that those of us who still believe in free speech need to speak up more, and louder, lest we lose that right.
33
@Talbot no one is saying the man doesn't have the legal right to have a flag that represents a country that led a racist war on America. But that doesn't mean that others can't judge him for it, or use their own free speech to criticize him.
If the confederate-loving snowflake can't handle being criticized for using a flag that represents the enslavement and torture of millions of people and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers, that's his problem.
44
@Talbot
This has nothing to do with free speech. The guy has every right to fly whatever flag he wants. And the homeowner has every right not to employ him if she finds his flag offensive. No one's right to free speech is threatened.
42
@Talbot Talbot, I remember when the ACLU defended the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie IL. Does anyone appreciate the knowledge that Skokie residents et al. marched to prevent UofChicago undergrads from attending a talk on campus by members of the Nazi party? In response, the administration moved the meeting to a small venue and restricted attendance for only enrolled members of the sponsoring club. What were the marchers protesting, away from their own streets? The right to bear witness? The right of young people (of a certain ilk, as we were in those days) to see and hear for themselves what exists in a larger world than their upbringing? I like going to a zoo's herpetarium to see venomous creatures behind glass; I wanted to see Nazis from similar impetus.
1
That flag is NOT a sign of racism, its a sign of Southern pride. Johnny Cash sang on the Muppets with the Battle flag in the background. I have read over 50 books on the WBTS. The war was not to free the slaves.
1st inaugural address on March 4, 1861, Lincoln stated, ““… I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. (in other words, it’s NOT about slavery) Then he makes this threat …, “The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties (tariffs) and imposts but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no use of force against or among the people anywhere..." (in other words it’s about collecting his revenue).
In the EP Lincoln stated that it was a "war measure" and a "military necessity". Lincoln favored colonization of the slaves and wanted the West for "free (white) labor".
BTW, only 4% of the Atlantic slaves landed in North America/US. Only 400k out of 10.5m. By the time of the war there were 4m slaves, not exactly indicative of bad treatment.
Many blacks fought under that Confederate flag. Yes, some people have used that flag for hate but the KKK, in its heyday, marched under the US flag. Are you offended by that flag too!
End the Hate, Support Our Confederate Veterans!
11
@Tom Long
The Confederate flag is the standard of treason and of an army that fought against the United States of America. It's nothing to be proud of.
152
When the good old boys of Marietta Georgia Lynched a Jewish man named Leo Frank, you can be sure that Confederate KKK Battle Flag was there.
It is a symbol of hate, Sir.
56
@Tom Long As an apparent scholar on the subject I'm sure you're familiar with the Cornerstone speech given by Alexander Hamilton Stephens, VP of the Confederacy where he states
"Its' foundations are laid, it's cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery- subordination to the superior race- is his natural and normal condition. Thus, our new government is the first in history of the world based upon this great physical, philosophical and moral truth."
Stephens is honored by the state of Georgia to this day by having his bust on display in Statuary Hall in Washington. Hank Aaron or Ray Charles may have been my choices.
63
My grandmother, who as a girl saw first-hand the aftermath of lynchings and escaped the South when she married my Northern grandfather, had nothing but contempt for people who displayed the Confederate flag. She referred to them as "ignorant fools who are still fighting the Civil War" and held people who defended it as a symbol of "cultural pride" in even greater contempt. I asked her once if any of her family had fought for the Confederacy, and she said, "Yes - and I'm ashamed of it." I didn't ask any further questions about it; her response was sufficient.
My grandmother was a very wise woman.
89
I live in upstate New York (that’s north of the Catskills for my NYC friends) and we have rebel flags up here. I assume they are espousing a particular contrarian political viewpoint since this part of NY sent many, many of its young men to war with the Union army between 1861 and 1865. There are two or three Underground Railroad houses within a 15 mile radius of my house. As a student of American history I find the flag offensive (no different than a Nazi battle flag or the Rising Sun battle flag from WW2). If you feel you need to proclaim something, tell us straight out. No need to appropriate discredited symbols from the past.
38
I disagree; in my view, the only person responsible for the stolen shows is the one who stole them.
Gatherings like those described are more akin to a gym locker than anything else; items are left unattended are at the owner’s risk, and not the gym (or house) owner.
The kid was asked to nor walk around the house with her outdoor shoes on. If she was so worried about her expensive shoes, which she knew beforehand she could not wear insifmde, she could have put them in a bag and taken them with her.
17
In truth your only ethical responsibility is to ask the man about the meaning of his Confederate flag, and then listen and hopefully learn.
Do not presume that the person with the flag is either racist or inherently violent as some who have posted on here suggest.
16
@Carl Roden What else could the flag possibly symbolize, if not support for the Confederacy-- a country that warred against America, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of loyal Americans, in support of the enslavement of millions? If I see someone with a Nazi flag, I don't engage with them to "listen and hopefully learn"-- I avoid them.
40
@Carl Roden
I have no "ethical responsibility" to a worker who comes to my house and no interest in his notions about American history.
27
@Pecan the eithical responsibility may be to the community in general. I have spoken with more than one person of color who finds the display of the confederate flag threatening. Do I want people of color to feel under threat in my community? Is there any way I can let those displaying that flag know that they are no just displaying their 'rebel' attitude toward the structures that they feel are alienating them from full involvement and success in society, but they are actively harming people who have reason to feel threatened by that flag. [I do think that most people around me who display that flag are expressing their alienation and anger, rather than their support for slavery.]
5
How come this ethicist never references the ethics of the Confederates? Their leaders like Robert E. Lee were deserters, mutineers and traitors. These are the highest crimes that a sworn military officer can commit. He treats this like some difference of opinion. This is not a difference of opinion. Flying the Confederate flag glorifies criminals who by current and contemporary law should have all gotten the death penalty.
54
My wife said she would never eat at Chick Fil A because of the founders pro life stance. When we had a contractor over to update our kitchen my wife asked if I had any questions. I asked the contractor if he supported a women’s right to chose. Wife was not amused.
12
@Mickey Nowak Maybe your wife doesn't think that going back to the days women dying of back street abortions is as funny as you do.
12
As a college freshman I knew a classmate in the dorm who hung the confederate flag over her bed. I asked her what it meant.
It means I’m a rebel, she said.
I said, that’s not what it means to everyone.
The sooner this is a collective understanding, the better. It is an outdated symbol much like the monuments to Southern civil war “leaders.”
30
The Confederate flag means treason. Always has, always will.
7
@Sara The sooner you may impose your own self righteous dictation of what another might think, and make divergence from group think a "thought crime", the happier you will be in your safe little place where you need not be confronted by anything that is not precisely what you approve. How nice for you.
14
I applaud the woman who feels it is her duty as a white person to call out other white people on their displays of bigotry.
The family should at least offer to replace the stolen boots. That is the right thing to do if you are the host. And if it bothers you, find a tactful and empathetic way to bring up your concerns. Also, maybe host the next party at your house, since the friend’s parents seem to have crowd control challenges.
9
@Lillie Yes, I agree! Jackson Katz has an excellent TED talk about how men should use their privilege to call-out sexism against women. Indeed, they are uniquely positioned to make an impact.
I appreciate this woman grappling with how to use her white privilege to call out racism AND yet, ultimately agree that the best way to do so can be with the suggested subtle finesse of “so what’s up with the flag?”
2
When I consider contractors for work at my house, I make a point of checking their trucks for offensive stickers. If one of their workers showed up with one I'd probably let it slide and not use them again. It's unwise to create conflict with someone who's working on your home. And it isn't as though any minds are going to be changed.
As for the boots, it's not worth humiliating the child and making themselves look petty. If someone can't afford to lose a $200 pair of boots, they were foolish to have bought them.
22
@Randy And when you hire a doctor or lawyer or accountant, do you check the campaign finance databases to see if you approve of where your money goes?
9
Nobody should have to put up with a Confederate flag in his driveway
7
@M.R. Sullivan They can spend their money on whatever they like. But if they display what I consider a hate symbol in their office, I'm out of there.
4
This is getting dangerously close to Godwin's law, but would your answer be the same if it was a German battle flag from wwII? I mean he could just be a third generation American of German extraction who is honoring his grandfather for bravely defending the fatherland. As for Leonard Skynard, listen carefully to the lyrics to "Sweet Home Alabama." Give the worker three steps towards the door and, if you're lucky, you'll never see him no more.
8
Mistake #1: Buying your daughter a pair of $200 shoes. I suppose in some instances--special foot problems or special kinds of sports shoes or boots--$200 is not unreasonable. But in our status-seeking, signaling-with-what-designer-label-your-clothes-have-on-them consumer society, one of the best lessons we can teach our children is that "clothes don't make the man" or woman, and that people who think so are basically shallow, and hanging out with people who think they need a certain level of expensive-looking clothes to be okay, is a formula for life as a rat on an endless treadmill.
18
Another approach: tell the worker or boss that the flag is offensive to your Maine heritage. Maine is a state that fought for the Union, and lost many sons battling that flag.
If it's liberal vs conservative, or Trump vs non, or anti-racist vs racist, the battle lines are already drawn. But if it's an insult to local heritage, the flag waver is at an automatic disadvantage, whatever his views.
19
Regarding the missing shoes, what about emailing the known guests and asking if they accidentally took home the wrong shoes? This has accidentally happened at parties I've been at a number times! I would not assume that only uninvited guests are capable of taking shoes...
17
In our area we sometimes see those stickers, and I'm afraid I delight in saying, "Oh, the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Are you a Civil War buff?" They never know what I am talking about. I can natter on about the difference between that flag and the Stars and Bars, etc., for quite a long time. I don't know that it does any good for race relations, but it is very satisfying and potentially educational.
21
@Prodesse
Aha! The bore them to death strategy. It might backfire though if it is a Civil War reeanactor you are engaging with. They can engage for hours on things like that.
16
@Prodesse
While you're at it you can let them know that it wasn't the Civil War, it was the War of Northern Aggression, as taught in VA schools back in the 1950's.
1
I think you should find an excuse to fire the entire roof repairing crew. His boss definitely knows. Even if it's not about racism, generally it's a good idea to avoid the crazy. Doing business with these kind is asking for more trouble down the road. You are in Maine, surely you can find some other company with rational and stable folks.
29
This agressive, self righteous attitude has a lot to do with why Trump is president. We need to work things out sensibly without producing moral backlash.
35
@James Bracken I agree that R's reaction is agressive and self-righteous, but it's not an excuse for electing Trump.
3
There is nothing sensible about flying the Confederate flag. It is meant to be antagonistic and aggressive
7
Shoes are always taken off before entering the main part of Japanese homes. There is always a shoebox inside the front door to store them, but most people guests don't bother with the show box and just leave them inside the entry. In Japan, there is no worry about shoes being stolen, because they are honest people. Even schools require students to take off their shoes because who knows what they may have stepped in outside and will bring into a house? It's only in dishonest societies that one must worry about their shoes being stolen. Honesty is one of the top reasons I choose to live in Japan and not the US.
22
Although the daughter's boots are the biggest concern to her parents right now, I doubt they rank very high on the list of priorities for the hosting parents. Based on what the writer said, the daughter's friend hosted an unsupervised party that got out of hand. "Blown up" is the technical term. Your spot is blown.
I suspect the friend's parents have other things on their mind than the author's lost boots. Criminal negligence and personal liability come to mind. Were any of the kids drinking or using drugs? Patching things up with the neighbors is bad enough. I doubt anyone wants to call the police over a pair of boots.
I've seen these things play out in real life. I spent two winters in upstate New York without a jacket because someone stole my warm coat from a crowded party. Coldest winters of my life. Lesson: Don't loose track of your nice coat at a crowded party. That or wear something different.
The other observation I'll offer is things are probably much worse for the hosting parents. An overrun party is a messy thing. The plumbing and carpet bills probably cost more than the boots. That's before we start assessing broken or stolen items. One poor woman I know had her grandmother's diamond necklace stolen when her kids accidentally threw a raging party.
In context, a nice pair of boots aren't such a big deal.
12
@Andy Good point, actually: this is a lesson kids learn growing up. At 42 I know that when I go to a metal show the designer purse stays home in lieu of the pleather back pack, no real gold jewelry, just bamboo gold colored hoops. The nice stuff isn't for sleepovers at friends' vacation homes, it's for Broadway and hotels.
5
I think that the most important observation regarding openly objecting to the display of a battle flag is that you should be prepared for retaliation. Quite possibly violent.
In the current political climate, it is clear that racism can be openly embraced by racists. It is also clear that racists are violent. By definition.
39
@HT
I've seen some pretty threatening and agitated folks on the left, looking at you, Bernie Bros. And I'm a left/center Democrat. It just a window sticker, let it go.
12
@HT
I think she knows about the possibility of violence and is deliberately trying to provoke to see if her husband will defend her.
5
@HT That was my first thought too - it's possible the husband didn't want a confrontation because he knew it could possibly get violent. And let's face it, America is gun-happy.
11
I am astonished over the pearl clutching brought on by a window sticker. Perhaps because I live in a more diverse part of the country, I’m used to seeing a little bit of everything, and have learned not to assume the worst in everyone.
Take a minute to meet your neighbors; you might be pleasantly surprised.
28
@KLM
I am astonished, and saddened, that so many cannot bring themselves to simply and clearly say that racism is not okay.
It's very simple, fire the contractor and tell them why. Don't hire people who deliberately display racist and hateful symbols.
27
@DW the flag doesn't mean racism to everyone. If I have the Knights of St Johns emblem tattooed on my shoulder like I wanted would you call me out? Hint the Nazi's stole that and called it the Iron Cross. Just because hate groups may take a symbol as theirs doesn't mean every southern who is proud of their heritage is racist. But then again it was the US of A who slaughtered practically the entire native american population. Should I as part native american tell you to put your racist stars and stripes where the sun don't shine?
9
It means racism to most Americans
3
"I was deeply offended"...says the woman from Maine.
Therein lies the problem in today's America.
Grown adults are now "deeply offended" at literally everything.
Flags, words, statues, monuments, mascots, murals, paintings, sculptures, symbols, TV shows, movies, objects, all caps, exclamation points, pronouns, and the list goes on and on.
Next week, someone will be "deeply offended" by a "Feel The Bern" bumper sticker....as this message must be "deeply offensive" to any capitalism-loving American.
53
@John If they're not deeply offended, they are heartbroken or mortified.
16
@John If I were Jewish, I would be deeply offended by a Swastika on my plumber's truck. If I were African-American, I would be deeply offended by a Confederate battle flag on my plumber's truck. I think those categories of "deeply offended" are not unreasonable.
66
I’m neither Jewish nor African American and I find both those things deeply offensive. If a worker showed up at my house with a swastika on his car, I’d ask him to leave and call the boss. Confederal flag really isn’t much different. At the very least, I’d be embarrassed to have that on a car in front of my house.
41
There are a lot of angry and ugly comments here regarding the Confederate flag. When I was raised in the South, the people we associated with did not see it as a flag symbolizing white supremacy. They would have been appalled at the very thought. I am totally and completely against the thinking of superiority be it race, gender, sexual orientation, class level,or whatever. People are people. I cannot agree with some of the commenters though on their hatred of anyone who sees things differently. I am appalled and disgusted by Trump and the GOP for the way they treat people. I have a number of acquaintances who are 100% behind Trump and all the offensiveness he stands for. They think he is great because of what he is doing for them. I even, unfortunately, have relatives who voted for him (but I hope they will reconsider this year.) I don't hate or denigrate these people because they believe differently from me. I can't change their minds so I avoid the subject and ask that it not be discussed with me. They aren't bad people, just wrong headed. Maybe that is avoidance but it is the most civil way I can think of to deal with the issue.
27
I spent many formative years among those same "non racist" flag and heritage types in the South. With a few notable exceptions, most of them used the N word or other casual acceptances of white superiority as a given.
Doesn't fly. Many whites in the Trump era are indeed arming for another push at a dominating white Christian society. Trump is helping them. Be offended. Fight back.
6
@ExPatMX
What exactly is Trump doing for your friends? Oh right....he's building a wall and firing all the competent people in government so he can replace them with his toadies.
3
Speaking to the employer is the correct way to proceed. If employees are using their own vehicles at the job site it is reasonable for the employer to require those vehicles do not present hate speech or symbols to customers. There’s no such thing as freedom of speech while at work. Confrontation is exactly what the jerk with the flag is looking for - leave that experience to the person who cuts his pay check.
29
The issue with the Confederate flag that puzzles me is the people who it represents were traitors. They were treated kindly in defeat, too kindly, maybe, since very soon after southern traitors were walking the halls of Congress again. And they have been jamming their racist views down our throats ever since.
Don’t know a solution but that is the problem as I see it.
141
@JKile
Worse than that they were traitors is that they fought to preserve slavery. If they'd seceded for some other reason, I would have favored letting them do so. Lincoln believed that keeping the Union together was necessary to demonstrate to the world that democracy could work, and, in the 1860s, that was a reasonable position. But it wasn't worth 750,000 deaths. Ending slavery was.
20
@JKile they are the same kind of traitors who fought against the British from 1775 - 1783.
At the time it was not against the law to succeed.
5
@JKile
The "founders," whom we revere, were traitors. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Adams, Hamilton, Hancock, etc. And many of them were
slaveholders. They knew they were traitors but thought their cause justified the risks. Just like the Southerners.
3
I’d have had a sudden change of need for a roofer and let him go merrily on his way. No need to bring up the flag or anything else...just say you decided you didn’t need the help.
19
My first experience with you MUST take your shoes off, at the door, was off-putting to me. It was at a boyfriends parents home. Not sure how I feel about that today. I'd of course comply. But I wouldn't like it.
As for the confederate flag, I would be contacting the business owner and advising you do not want that flag flying infront of you home, & if that person was expected to return to your home tomorrow the flag must be gone. IF the owner pushed back, ask would he want his business name on the side of that truck? In anyevent, might be the last time I used that company for any work at my home. We are judged by the company we keep.
20
Suppose the workman had a bumper sticker supporting Trump or the NRA?
Suppose your neighbors put up a "Vote for Trump" sign on their front lawn?
Suppose you put up a "Vote for Sanders" sign on your front lawn and your neighbors claimed you were responsible for Clinton's 2016 loss?
The Confederate flag is universally offensive--to many, not all. It is a sign of racism--until it's a sign of something else, like "heritage."
There is something to be said for live and let live. The guy will offend many.
20
"You might come prepared to explain to your roofer the true nature of Southern secession, only to discover that to him it speaks to a love of Lynyrd Skynyrd or “The Dukes of Hazzard.""
1. The Dukes drive a hot rod named General Lee. The Southern secession is practically a character on that show.
2. Lynyrd Skynrd used to wave the Confederate flag, but the original members stopped doing so in 2012, because of what it meant.
23
You might be surprised at what people know - or rather, don't know - about some of these symbols that represent racism. I've been a bit surprised myself lately.
6
@Patricia Actually many of the original LS band members had no opinion about the flag: They died in 1977.
2
@Michael Thought you might be interested the following--the crash apparently set up a complicated situation: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-country/lynyrd-skynyrd-inside-the-bands-complicated-history-with-the-south-629080/
I would feel wary of directly confronting a Confederate flag bearer. First, it's what they want. Second, it makes your home a potential target for their craziness --- and they are absolutely crazy.
I would, however, pull the head contractor aside. He's not going to want to lose future business because of a co-worker's embracing a particular symbol.
33
What if he just really liked the dukes of hazard?
7
Once upon a time some young black men in South Carolina tried to start a business selling flags, decals, etc. using the CSA battle flag design but re-done using the Pan-African colors of black, green and red. The business, NuSouth, did not take off, but they may have simply been ahead of their time.
https://qz.com/446005/these-guys-protested-the-confederate-flag-20-years-ago-and-all-they-got-was-this-defunct-t-shirt-company/
10
I recently bought a bright red trucker hat that carried the slogan, “Make racism wrong again.”
It turns out that the act of wearing a bright red hat, with whatever slogan, is more than enough provocation for me.
I wore it once and never again. Some people may only think they want the attention until they get it.
5
The confederate flag is a symbol of threat, hate and division. It also speaks to the threat of domestic terrorism. To speak directly to the thug displaying it can and does put one's life in danger.
I'd tell the contractor that and ask him/her to take action. If he refuses or fails, I'd stop the agreed upon work.
No one has the right to threaten Americans.
18
@aek "Domestic terrorism"... a most excellent example:
"On November 15, 1864, Union forces led by Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman burned nearly all of the captured city of Atlanta, Georgia. More than 3,000 buildings (including businesses, hospitals, homes, and schools) were destroyed."
General Sherman was a "domestic terrorist" flying the Confederate battle flag, yes? Or was he flying a different flag during his campaign of terror and wanton destruction?
5
Displaying the confederate flag in 2020 tells me tacitly tells a lot of things I need to know as a minority.
No need to even have a discussion; you’ve exercised your 1st Amendment right, fine.
I heard you loud and clear and will choose to protect myself and sever ties with you.
56
This is not hard. You don't hire that contractor again, you don't recommend them, & if people inquire you tell them why.
35
On a job up in Chicago I gave a guy from Georgia who wore a Confederate flag T shirt what we in the trades call a "one man lay-off". To the Devil with him.
As for the boots: I wouldn't be shy about demanding the people pay up.
11
Sensitive people that want to be offended will always find a way. Get rid of the flag and they’ll simply complain about something else.
18
Calling people "sensitive" as though that were a negative quality is a great way to defend yourself against the discomfort of knowing actions can have unintended hurtful consequences. I for one appreciate sensitivity. It's human to feel what we feel, and sensitive to respond with care and consideration, rather than disparagement.
2
It’s not “sensitive” to be offended by a flag that represents treason and racism.
5
Few points regarding the flag...
1) The homeowners' relationship is with the roofer, not the worker, and if there's going to be a discussion, it makes sense for it to happen with him.
2) No one necessarily knows the roofer's relationship with the contractor. Maybe he gave the worker that flag, or maybe he hired a friend of a friend as a favor, and immediately decided "never again" as soon he saw the flag.
To me, that amounts to having a conversation with the roofer, calmly explaining that you personally don't agree with the flag, and that you'd really rather not be confronted with it when you're the one paying for the work. At that point, the roofer can either tell you it's been nice knowing you, or promise to make sure it won't happen again if you hire them back. Leave it to him and his conscience whether he does that grudgingly.
15
In Hawaii, everyone removes shoes before entering someone’s home. And there often is a sign at the door, in pidgin, that says, “no leave with bettah ones”.
Why the comment about the Asian ancestry? Why not the same comment about the “white” skin description in the first question. That skin color was mention several times. Seems to be a double standard. It is wrong to comment on Asian but okay to comment on white skin color. Please explain.
24
I am with the white lady, sharing her indignation at a confederate flag. If someone chooses to display it in full view, you know they are proud to express their xenophobic views....really music groups and naughty short stories, such positivity from you :-)). They also probably carry guns and believe in expressing overt racism. To try and engage such a person in meaningful conversation hoping to reach into their heart and soul is akin to believing in unicorns, leprechauns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. A complete waste of effort which will end in one losing control over their emotions. I suggest never using this business again. Privately express your views to friends. Cowardly? Yes, but safe.
As for the Asian family, really such pretense, no shoes but strangers with unknown habits welcome. If your daughter chooses to continue this relationship, kindly buy Payless. Oh yes they know the value of expensive shoes, but choose to pretend it matters little. But mostly ask yourself, if it had happened at your place what would you have done? Empty apologies or coughing up a check for new shoes? More than that ask yourself what is it that is really bothering you? The expensive shoes or that they are more upscale than you. Sometimes such moments are there for us to introspect and soul search. It’s ok to feel resentment or feel that their values are different from yours. But mulling on it will give way to a better understanding of your heart and mind.
9
I don't know where the author lives but asking guests to remove their shoes is decidedly uncommon where I live. Providing the context for the request is perfectly reasonable and I know of no reason to not note that the hosts past cultural traditions played a role in the request. Not mentioning a relevant factor simply because it involves ethnicity seems just as inappropriate. The family was Asian, so is mine, it is not a big deal to point it out when it adds context.
32
I grew up in those New England environs, and I don't recall seeing the Confederate flag, ever. Maybe some people loved the Duke boys, but didn't fly the flag.
Thus I suspect that the flag is an artifact of modern Trumpist culture.
I don't know what this means for confronting this particular fellow, but I don't think that the flag's meaning, in New England, is benign.
26
@Milo
Yes, me too, grew up in New England and one did not see confederate flag. As we learned in school, they lost that war.
13
I find the Confederate flag unacceptable; however, I have a cousin who has one tattooed on his upper arm. He owns a business installing replacement windows. His prices are very reasonable, and he is scrupulously honest. Several (liberal) friends have hired him. Yes, he’s a hunter, too. Our great-great grandfather fought for the CSA. Of course, my cousin does not realize that a different great-great grandfather fought for the Union.
By all means, do business with those you choose. But I won’t reject my cousin... or my Trump-loving neighbor. If we enforce a purity test on everyone, how will we ever respect our neighbors—-or unify as a country in times of need??
96
@Babs Respect? You may love your cousin, or like your neighbor, but they have openly, overtly demonstrated, as clearly as they can, that neither is worthy of respect.
13
@Babs
Or, for that matter, change the perspective of racists if they have no interaction with those unlike them?
That's why I would have told the crew boss to have the flag removed while working at my house.
11
I have read through quite a few of the comments. There is an angle that seems important, but missing, either from the comments or in the article which otherwise is excellent.
In the case of the roofer what comes to mind are the kinds of policies in many employment situations that discourage or prohibit displaying symbols, clothing or other indications of a political nature. It's not a matter of whether the particular symbol represents something as hateful as the Battle Flag or swastika, but simply avoiding unneeded provocation and confrontation on the job, whether between the outfit doing the work and the client, or between employees on the crew.
The don't-rock-the-boat policy helps calm things and given that any average workday brings up enough points of aggravation and interpersonal conflict anyway, it makes sense to just not know or not be reminded of the other folks' prejudices.
The key should be can and will they do a good job at a fair price, and do so with professional consideration for the client, the client's neighbors, and for their own workers.
We don't need to know the other stuff and, so long as it doesn't affect the quality of the work, doesn't matter. That there may be time and place for discussion and even confrontation is found on another page.
I would also say that the outfit that asks a potential client about his political orientation is way off-base too, but the solution in that case is pretty obvious.
Sometimes inaction is the best kind of action.
18
RE: Roofer's Confederate battle flag
There is no generally recognized symbol used to declare to the world: I'M A REDNECK
If a lifetime of working in commercial construction in northern New England has taught me anything its (1) those ornery looking guys on any job site are almost invariably big Teddy-Bears once you get to know them (2) roofers are one of the toughest, hardest drinking group of guys there are and (3) trying to talk what you believe to be 'sense' to that guy will do zero good because he just doesn't see that symbol the same way as you do.
For 99% of the northern New England good-ol-boys who are up before dawn day-in and-day-out to do the physically demanding work of building our houses, schools, hospitals, churches and commercial buildings, the Confederate battle flag is synonymous with drinking beer, driving trucks, shootin' guns, listening to country music, and yelping around bonfires on Friday and Saturday nights to blow off a little steam with their buddies. That's it. That's all it is.
81
Nope, that’s not all it is. I’m a white woman from the Deep South (Georgia) and have had a closer look at this culture than someone in New Hampshire. I’m not sure I’d say anything about the sticker and I wouldn’t want them working on my house.
35
@Aaron I think you left out a few of their activities: homophobia, wife-beating, and voting against their own best interests.
46
@Laurie Hi Laurie. I realize the CBF has a MUCH different meaning in your 'Deep South', which is why I qualified my statement by indicating that I was referring to its regional symbolism in northern New England. Like many symbols, the CBF has been co-opted by a popular culture far removed from its origin. It is common for a symbol to mean something different than its original meaning, ESPECIALLY to those with no connection to its origin. As an alternate example of how symbols can be co-opted by groups unconnected to their origin, think about how the likeness of Che Guevara has been co-opted in American popular culture in the last 20 years. Today many people see his likeness primarily as a symbol of rebellion against those in power. It doesn't mean that people who wear a t-shirt with his face on it advocate for a violent overthrow of our Democratic state to establish an American Communist dictatorship with the intent of whole-sale privatization of American industry. I suspect if a woke 20-something hipster from NYC walked through Little Havana wearing a Che shirt, they would be greeted by a slightly different response than they might get in their Cultural Studies class at NYU.
26
I ran into the exact same situation with the confederate flag but it was on a teachers car at my sons daycare. The daycare is at a church and serves families of color. I'm sorry to say that I took the cowards approach. I walked up to the daycare director and said it was inappropriate for a teacher at this school to have a confederate flag on school property. I said that if I were black and my son was in her class, I would be very worried that he might be treated differently and might also feel intimidated to speak out. The teacher quit a few days later. I honestly feel no regret over speaking out. People need to understand that you can have freedom of speech in your own home, but there are codes of conduct in any work environment, especially when children are involved.
174
@Kate I agree with everything you said except one thing. You said you "took the coward's approach." I think you took the correct approach.
16
@Kate I don't think your approach was cowardly. A coward would not have said anything to the director. You had no obligation to confront the teacher directly.
12
I have read many of the comments so far. None of them have pointed out how dangerous it was for the parents (hosts) of the party to let teens they did not know come and go in their house during a party situation. It is also a bad lesson to teach their children about how to entertain. In the teen years, parents should have more control over who is in their homes and how well they know their children.
At the very least, ask the names of those attendees you do not know and how they heard about the party. Too many teens can make bad decisions about other people's property or pass that information on to people who do steal from homes. Parents and children are putting themselves at risk for when they are alone in the home.
29
As to the Confederate Flag issue, when Hobby Lobby refused to cover birth-control I stopped shopping there. It has been at least six or eight years since I darkened their door. I also told all my friends who believe in women's right to reproductive freedom. They also stopped shopping there too. I didn't have to mention it to the the store manager or have any confrontations. I just don't care to shop there anymore. I would simply not hire the construction firm again.
86
@SKwriter One difference. Hobby Lobby is a retail business dependent upon return business. A roof last 25 years and the roofer is not dependent upon return business. I would politely ask them to leave because they have disrespected my countrymen who died to preserve our nation.
4
@SKwriter
I avoid Hobby lobby, Chick-Fil-A and Papa John's for all the right reasons. Starve them out.
8
Here's how I would handle a workman I've hired who displayed a Confederate flag. I would ask him to remove it because I find it offensive and if he didn't, then I would ask him to leave.
I would then hire another roofer, preferably one that is more professional and does not stick their politics in their clients' faces.
As the person paying for a service, you should not have to be offended by the workers you hire. Any professional tradesman would know it is not advisable to alienate half of your potential customers.
51
Re: the flag situation.....What would be the point of mentioning it to the man's boss? Obviously, if the homeowner can see the flag on the man's truck, so can his boss, and he doesn't appear to have an issue with it. But I wouldn't hire that particular company again, and I certainly would tell anyone who asked why.
He has a right to wave that flag, the homeowner has the right to hire anyone they want.
23
Re the issue of taking off shoes on entering someone’s home: what if one has a medical condition and is unable to go shoeless? I have atypical peripheral neuropathy (non-diabetic but caused be medication I once had to take) and simply cannot go barefoot unless I am bathing, swimming or sleeping? Is it then okay to wear shoes?
11
@Patricia Cross: Yes, it is okay to wear shoes.
I have a problem with my foot, and must wear footwear that is supportive in a specific way or risk further damage to my foot. The only times I am without appropriate footwear are when I'm in the shower, or in bed. Anyone who has an issue with that can count on my not ever going to their home!
9
@Patricia Cross Maybe bring slippers or „indoor shoes“ with you to change into?
8
@Patricia Cross, under those circumstances, bring a pair of clean slippers/house shoes and change into them when you arrive. I cannot imagine that any good host would object. In Alaska, where taking off shoes upon entering others' homes is a pretty common custom, many homes often have a basket of slippers to offer people after they take off their shoes.
14
You know, I REALLY don’t like Amazon’s business practices and refrain from shopping there. They take advantage of their workers —and every tax payer—because they use our roads, fire stations, ambulances, etc. and pay no corporate taxes. But, somehow, I don’t see a boycott Amazon fury sweeping the nation. It’s just so much easier to be against (admittedly offensive) flag stickers.
21
It's refreshing to find a NYT opinion article so well-thought from all angles, and so well-written. Given my deep southern ancestry, I especially appreciated the Percival Everett story, and hope that many other analogous stories are real events. The core rationale of the Lost Cause was detestable, but a large number of those fighting for it were guilty by geolocation. Those living there had little choice but to fight with their neighbors, or else give up everything they own and move who-knows-where, who-knows-how. Most of my ancestors fought for the south, but otherwise were subsistence farmers, barely able to provide for their families. While they were better off than many slaves in principle, they were not much better off in lifestyle: they were slaves to the land itself, and even more so after the economic devastation that followed the civil war. It's no wonder that most of my ancestors didn't stay long after it was over. Given foresight, they would probably have abandoned their land early and forced themselves to move in advance, hoping they didn't starve to death along the way. Nevertheless, the land of cotton is a part of my family's history, their blood was split there, and it will not be forgotten. That doesn't mean racism is ok in any shape or form.
18
@Mark they weren’t better off than slaves in principle; they were better off in reality. Because they were considered human not property. They chose their own names, their own language, they could learn to read if they wanted to. So while they may have been very poor, their situations were very different in reality.
21
@Lillie Yes, freedom makes a difference - principles are important. As for principle vs reality: sure, my ancestors "could learn to read if they wanted to", just like the homeless could have homes if they wanted to. See? It's not quite that simple.
2
@Mark
Homeless? I see what you tried to do there. Sorry, but in this instance, you’re talking apples and oranges. What response do you have to @Lillie’s deeper, more provocative points, “Because they were considered human, not property. They chose their own names, their own language...”?
1
Thank you for raising this question! In my small town one family raised the confederate flag. I approached them and asked why. I said, “It’s a strong statement.” The father of the household explained why and my summary of understanding was that it was to “stick it in the eye of the man” (my words). He said he wasn’t racist and noted many African American friends in his construction work. It was an amicable exchange and we shook hands at the end. A few days later the flag was gone.
I feel gratified that I spoke up but uncertain about the significance of my communication across our divide!
John
36
He has the right to display that flag. However, no one that supports the flag of a country that took up arms against my country and was soundly defeated will be allowed to work on my house. I will protest with my wallet, fire them, and get new contractors.
60
@Scott S.
Theres no greater flag that says "genocide of the Native Americans" and "internment of the Japanese" and "Jim Crow" than the American flag. Maybe some self reflection is in order.
26
@Joe. Thank you for that. Purity tests are not activism.
3
@Scott S.
Would that include the German, Japanese, Italian, British, Spanish, Mexican, etc. flags? Because we've been in conflict with all of them at some time during our history.
You may want to narrow your definition.
3
I had a similar encounter in Portland, Maine. If it's the same guy (this is a very small population state) it's worth noting that the flag was huge - larger than most flagpole flags. Maine lost many during the Civil War and to fly this flag in the Northern-most state is simply an insult. That worker is free to insult people, but I am free not to hire his services.
172
@Steve Agree with the valor of Maine volunteers for the Union during the Civil War. Col. Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine held Little Round Top at Gettysburg, and attacked the rebels with bayonets drawn to save the high ground for the Union. It was a key effort that helped to turn the tide against the Confederacy. Use the freedom these Union heroes won for us not to hire anyone who uses the flag of slavery to insult us today.
30
@Steve The Battle of Gettysburg might have been a confederate victory if not for a Colonel from Maine and the brave men from Maine who seved under him.
23
@Steve Flying this flag ANYWHERE is an insult to peace and freedom-loving people in this very current day and age.
5
I'm Canadian. Most Canadians take their shoes off, or at least ask the host if they should. I think it comes from taking off winter boots for much of the year.
38
Re:the roofer
I would certainly consider any potential shoddy workmanship, or worse, that MIGHT ensue from a conversation about a Confederate Flag. With work done on a roof, it will be hard to physically inspect and hard to spot defects until later.
If you are to have a conversation, make sure the work is done and the bill is paid.
22
As a member of the real minority (Asian, in case you were wondering), I would approach the matter differently. As long as the work is done properly, the contractor shows up on time, and the cost doesn't exceed the quote, I don't care about their personal beliefs. What if he didn't drive around with the flag? Would you have any other way of knowing about their supposed racist tendencies? Would you interviews future contractors and ask about their racial views? You will never know how people view each other. I need them to be good at their chosen profession and do the best work that they can. As long as they don't violate any laws and the work is done in a professional manner, their beliefs are moot.
34
@Just Sayin’
So I get from what you wrote that even if a symbol of hatred and bigotry–one that triggers pain and incites violence, by the way, is prominently displayed for all to see–as long as YOU get what YOU need, forget about everyone else.
One word: Disgusting. Oh, and another: Disappointing.
19
I would never tolerate a confederate flag on my property.
4
Re LW1: I’d wait until the job was completed, bill paid and all, and talk to the company’s owner about the flag. Since, as a consumer, I have the power to refer business to him/her (or not). A lot of businesses depend on word-of-mouth recommendations, maybe this roofer has a Confederate flag on his website! Maybe he seeks out this niche customer... who knows?
8
I hired a contractor to do some work on my house. His crew did a great job -- they were meticulous, quiet and cleaned up beautifully. One of them had a big old American sedan with a Trump sticker on it. I said nothing but I was careful about my conversation in front of him after that. I am sure he was equally offended by my "Impeach Trump" sign in the window.
46
I usually find myself largely in agreement with Appiah, but come on, man! A contractor in Maine sporting a large Confederate flag on a vehicle used for work is being willfully provocative. He is free to do so, of course, as I am free to say I will never be his customer. He can decide whether displaying the flag is worth the lost business. And if (as in Appiah's most generous proposition), he is so ignorant of American history as to only associate the Confederate flag with Leonard Skynyrd, I will happily lend him a few history books -- but he still ain't touching my roof or my benjamins.
99
@Jason Oh yeah I hadn't seen the Maine. I assumed it was in the south. Way more provocative if it's Maine.
8
Willfully provocative and, let’s face it, almost certainly armed and spoiling for a fight. The idea that the female homeowner, possibly home alone, should approach this person for a ‘conversation’ is also ludicrous. Pay for the work that’s already done, inform the contractor that no more work and no more money changes hands unless he addresses the situation.
9
The person should talk about the Confederate flag with the boss. The worker represents the boss and his actions reflect on the boss’s business. If he wore a shirt with profanities then the boss should be notified. This is not much different. The boss is responsible for the worker’s actions while he is at work, and the boss should know about the flag on the worker’s car sitting in front of the client’s house. If the boss is ok with the flag then find a different business to hire.
50
@Sam Agree, but since the worker does have the right to express his view, I would request, thru the supervisor, that the truck be parked well away from my property. You have no obligation to be even marginally associated with a repugnant symbol. When the work was complete I would have a talk w the owner of the company to express yourself...
3
LW1 was not able to convince her husband to take action on the flag. How likely is it that she would have a constructive conversation with the worker or his boss?
Powerful people are taking advantage of people like this construction worker for their own ends. These are frustrating times, and I think it's better to use our time and energy to support candidates and organizations we believe in rather than into taking out our frustrations on people less fortunate than we are.
17
Bad idea to complain about flags. Just don't hire them again. The Johnny Reb guy knows where you live and could come back and burn your house down. Just don't hire the company again.
(I went to an optical shop where the owner was playing his radio, forcing me to listen to Rush Limbaugh. I got up and left without saying anything and didn't go back.)
272
@Pecan
I'd also tell the contractor exactly why I wouldn't be hiring them again.
19
@Pecan I would have said something to the optical shop owner. The way you left it, he has no idea you found it offensive to be forced to listen to Limbaugh. He'll just be puzzled why you left but continue to keep his radio tuned to the bloviations of the newest Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and other customers will have to suffer.
31
@Pecan
I too have left small businesses where the TV or radio was tuned to Fox or to a right wing talk station. I wondered how much attention the person in the storefront had left over to pay to customers' needs or questions if their personal choices in TV and radio were loud in their stores.
21
When I was in my 20s and lived in Richmond I had a pro-choice sticker on my car. One afternoon I pulled out of a parking lot and a truck started following me. At a stop light the driver of the truck started yelling at me, calling me “baby killer” and some non-publishable epithets.
A couple years later a friend of mine was caught in traffic on I-95. She had some gay rights stickers on her car. A man got out of his car and started yelling at her, and ended up bashing in her front lights after failing to open her car door. There was no place for her to go in the gridlocked traffic, and this was the early 90s before everyone on the road had a cell phone to call the police. She was traumatized by the incident.
You may not like his sticker (I wouldn’t) but he has a right to have it on his truck, just like I had a right to a pro-choice sticker without being harassed, and my friend had a right to display gay rights stickers without being assaulted.
I grew up in the south so I know two things: a. You aren’t going to change this guy’s mind, and b. The same people who display confederate flags also practice their 2nd amendment rights. Let it be. Don’t hire that contractor again.
269
Or just fire them immediately. No reason other than “I’ve changed my mind.” They know the provocation the flag represents. They shouldn’t profit from it.
43
@Colleen in DC
There is a difference between speaking your opinion about a displayed flag and assault.
Or, there should be.
25
@Colleen in DC
Nope. Silence brought us the Holocaust.
I'd tell the contractor to either remove the flag from the employee's truck or lose my business. A racist symbol parked in front of my home gives people the impression I approve of the sentiment.
17
Re: Shoes. I once went skiing (first and last time!) and all of our boots/shoes were left in the building while everyone skied. By the time I got back, my favorite boots had been stolen.
I learned from that lesson, and hope the daughter and parents learn from theirs. Protect your expensive shoes. When asked to remove shoes at someone's house, bring or ask for a plastic bag in which you can place your expensive shoes. Ask the hosts to store them in a more private place (like a bedroom, garage) where other folks will not have easy access to take them. Then just go get them (or have the hosts get them) when you are ready to leave.
I also do this for yoga classes -- I bring a large bag, and bring my shoes into the studio with the rest of my stuff. Temptation can be hard to resist, even for enlightened yoginis. Namaste!
69
@Diva
This is a very good suggestion Diva. We also customarily leave shoes by the door and if the shoes are expensive, putting them in a plastic bag and placing them in a different room makes good sense.
We do something similar with winter coats (sans the plastic bag).
11
Agree with the columnist’s calling out that taking shoes off in the house is not just an Asian thing. I come from a white European-American mutt of a background, and wearing shoes in the house was a cardinal sin when I was growing up. I’m now married to a German, and not only does one not wear shoes in the house, one does not dare even place a shoe, with or without a foot in it, on any surface intended for placing one’s behind.
But, yeah, I also think the parents should have offered to pay for the boots.
44
@J.P. Johnson
I am a native Floridian as is my husband. Shoes were worn for school and for church. The minute you got home, off they came. I am now 73 years old and you will find my shoes parked in a corner by the front door. The years I lived in the North or in the winter, I put slippers on in the house. People laughed at me when I had infants because they never wore shoes until they began to walk. I didn't figure they had any use for them as infants. Different strokes for different folks. (You can wear your shoes when you visit though).
7
Whenever someone insists that the confederate battle flag represents "state's rights", simply ask "a state's right to do what?"
164
That’s easy; it’s called the Bill of Rights, 10th amendment and it states that anything that is not specifically called out as being a role of the Federal Government (ie... defense, immigration, etc) is solely reserved as a right of the State and it’s people.
So, your juvenile attempt to suggest that slavery was the only State’s right is bogus. The Federalists put a lot more thought to it then that.
4
@William what were the Union states not allowed that the confederate states wanted to do? Hint, it is only one thing.
31
@William
A puerile response. We understand that the right in question was the right to own slaves. No one believes it was about "state's rights" in the abstract.
23
To LW2: your daughter was surely aware of the lack of “security” at the door. If she had asked if she could have stashed her expensive boots in a bedroom, I’m sure the answer would have been yes. A hard learning experience, to be sure, but I’m not sure it’s the homeowners’ “fault.”
33
Really? She does what the hosts demand - a demand that leads to the natural assumption, as part of that bargain, that they will fulfill their basic responsibilities as hosts - and it’s HER fault that they turned out to be negligent? Ok.
30
I believe in civil discourse, not jumping to conclusions. And everyone should be treated with respect. But the worker with the Confederate flag on his truck may find any comment slightly amusing coming from a white woman in basically a white state. Why? The blue collar worker may have served along side black and brown compatriots in Iraq and Afghanistan, eating and sleeping together, while she and her husband were safe at home, hiring contractors. Everyone has a complicated background.
31
That isn’t “amusing.” It’s tragic that if he served, his compatriots had to serve alongside a likely racist (or at least, a racially insensitive human.) Hopefully he didn’t do too much damage.
20
I wonder how The Ethicist would respond if the flag on the truck had been a Nazi swastika, a symbol of another “Lost Cause”?
Debating viewpoints with friends holding different political positions is very stimulating and edifying. I don’t, however, feel the need to finance ‘speech’ that’s obviously an angry bellow and with which I vehemently disagree.
37
Any workers show up at my house with a Confederate flag on their vehicle - they are fired. They are free to do what they like and I am free to disagree. BTW, I grew up in the South. Definitely not okay, and no reasonable conversation could be had around this subject.
122
@Ceeje We live in North Carolina. On Interstate 40, between Asheville and Winston Salem, 3 different private properties have very large Confederate flags on very tall poles . They are obviously displayed prominently near the highway so that every traveler will see them. I find this provocative. I don’t think there is anything I can do other than feel sad. And vote. And be anti racist.
35
I generally make a point of establishing congenial relationships with contractors. If you're on friendly terms with the crew, or at least the boss, you don't need to make things confrontational.
You could simply say, "Some people might take your flag the wrong way. Don't you think it's more professional to leave that at home while you're working on a job?"
I would offer the advice in the same way I would tell a young person not to apply for a job using a sexually explicit email address. I'm not joking. That really happened. Just some friendly advice if you value your employment.
Of course, I did have one contractor make explicitly racist remarks to me once. I told him his comments were inappropriate. I politely asked him to finish the day's work, clean up his mess, I paid him off and we never spoke again.
28
@Andy I agree with your approach, being friendly can take out the heat of a confrontation. There was a time, however, with the meter man came while we were working outside. The man actually said, "oh, it's so good to come to a house where people speak English." To which I replied, "well, I could give you French, German, and some Greek and my partner can pepper you with a ton of Latin..." He went about swapping out the meter in silence. And the local teenaged boy helping us got a lesson. And yeah, it was classist, in terms of having a privileged education, but he was a big guy and I'm a small gal, so I used what was available.
I'm highly skeptical of "call out" and "cancel" culture. But I am interested in living in a culture that respects everyone's humanity. I'm a decidedly part-time social justice warrior, but I've come to learn that somehow we all have to own the pluralistic and just society that most of us want, or it's not going to happen. Peer pressure fueled Jim Crow and fuels white supremacy, so engaging in reverse peer pressure, or push back, seems important.
20
@Andy Starting a question with "Don't you think" is condescending and confrontational.
5
What kind of teenager (or adult) wears $200 shoes?
With that kind of money, I’d think you’d be happy for another opportunity to go shoe shopping.
12
I’m currently wearing $45 sneakers but I also own plenty of shoes that cost more than $200.
Why do you care how a teenager spends her money?
21
@Steve
They were "boots". Plenty of boots retail for that amount to last out a tough winter season. If you are not a "snowbird" you should know that!
7
@Steve Maybe the teen has a PT job and worked hard for the shoes.
7
As far as the flag goes, when seeking outside help, if their ad has the “christian” fish displayed in it, I will not even consider that company.
119
Why? I don’t have that symbol, but I support the right of people to exercise free speech and religion.
2
What if it had been a swastika, not a confederate flag? Free speech? I wouldn’t care. That guy could not work for me.
58
As a person of "color", I appreciate knowing who the racists are it makes it easier to stay away from such people. There is no need to confront or even try to enlighten them, a crooked sapling will grow into a crooked tree.
125
Amen!!!
It makes our lives easy. It’s like you see a red light that tells you stop and you stop!
I don’t discourage folks from displaying anything at all.
Please let’s know who you really are for our safety.
9
Our entire neighborhood is shoes-off-indoors. We are overwhelmingly white. If we have Asian cultures to thank for this custom, then thank you, Asian persons.
33
I live in Florida and rarely need a workman as I am capable of doing most of my own work but I did have a plumber show up with a confederate flag on his truck. I threw him off my property. I’m a 64 year old white guy.
90
I believe there was a Sex and the City episode that covered the stolen shoe issue. If you allow a bunch of unknown people into your house and require that everyone leave their shoes by the door, you have a responsibility to ensure that people leave only with the shoes they arrived with. It is difficult to get others to take moral responsibility.
And for PM from NYC, just because a parent splurged and bought one expensive pair of boots for a child, does not mean they have the ability to just go out and buy another. Perhaps this was a special present that they scrimped and saved for. Not everyone is rich.
53
@Katy And on that episode of the show, Carrie (who had her expensive shoes stolen) did ask to have the shoes replaced by her host. She told her where they could be purchased and what brand and size.
7
Great episode!
And the shoes were Manolos and a whole lot more than $200 and Tatum O’Neal “shoe shamed” Carrie and only offered her $200. 😂
We had someone do work in our home and he listened loudly to Rush Limbaugh and similar talk shows. We hated it but felt uncomfortable asking him to stop. That was 3 years ago and I still recoil at what we had to hear. I suspect we had the right to ask him to change the station.
15
@TS This reminds me of the darkroom in college where students would bring in a radio (this is LONG ago) and start to play it. It was also early in the age of the Walkman and ubiquitous earbuds; but even then the wise Professor would tap radio-ists on the shoulder and make the earplugs-in-ear gesture. Made for peaceful work in the dark. Might work in the daylight too.
2
@TS Yeah, and Mr. Limbaugh was just awarded the Medal of Freedom. Years and years of saying the most terrible things in public, of victimizing people and denying history and generally making himself a world class viper, ol' Rush just burst into tears at being so honored.
7
@TS
You could have asked him to put on some Mexican music and see what he had to say.
One huge problem with the confederate flag that should be pointed out to people who insist on displaying it in northern states, along with the racism it represents, is the fact that thousands and thousands of Union soldiers from northern states died during the Civil War and it is the height of disrespect to them to display that flag in the north.
84
@Maureen in the North? Really? That flag represents hatred and should not be displayed anywhere. And, regardless of how wrong headed they were, a lot of Southerners died in that war as well. Not all of them supported slavery - they were forced to enlist or have their families be punished.
19
@Ceeje And I am pointing out that it is particularly egregious to display that flag in the North. It was an enemy flag. Lots of southerners seem to still love it.
28
Thank you for the "one very small thing." It makes a big difference.
13
You should hire a different contractor. The folks who fly confederate flags are not bright and are often poor workers who make poor choices and they are bitter and vindictive. They will do a poor job and will likely do so in a way that cost you in the future. They do this intentionally.
46
@Chris I see that offensive statements and stereotypes can come from all quarters.
38
@Chris Chris I don't think that there is a clear line between even something as offensive as a confederate flag and all the negative attributes about which you complain. As a homeowner in a situation where a worker - otherwise competent and pleasant, parked their truck with an offensively anti-woman slogan outside my house, I told the worker that I found the sticker really upsetting and distasteful and did not want it parked by my house because (1) it was genuinely upsetting for me to see it and (2) I didn't want anyone to think that I approved on the sentiment expressed.
He apologized then and moved his truck. When he came back we talked a bit more about the sticker and he told me that he hadn't thought of all the things that I had - he thought it was just funny - but he would actually remove it now that he understood how offensive it might be. I didn't make him feel like a jerk and he seemed to appreciate my concerns.
114
People who buy $200 boots for their daughters can probably afford to buy another pair of $200 boots.
15
Or not. The writer clearly stated the shoes were a birthday present. Perhaps she saved up for months to gift her daughter and cannot, in fact, afford another pair. You don't know, and you should not make assumptions so easily and with so little information.
28
@PM You have never saved to buy your child a gift? I have saved for a year for a special birthday or Christmas gift for my loved ones.
18
I am not a fan of the Confederate flag, or those who wave it. But, isn't the waver protected by the First Amendment? Put another way, not everything is offensive to the same people. If you can insist the contractor not hire people who have the rebel flag on their car, can you also insist they do not hire people who have a NRA decal, or a Jewish Star, or a PETA decal, or a Black Lives Matter, etc, etc. The answer is No, you can't.
23
Yes. Displaying the Confederate Flag protected by the first amendment. So is the right to tell someone you don’t like their display of the Confederate Flag.
67
@chrisinroch The First Amendment prevents the government from regulating speech, but ordinary citizens have the right to say what they want including saying what they want about other citizen's free speech. We can say what we want, but there is nothing illegal about taking non-violent actions because you disapprove of what someone else says. I don't have to let the guy with the Trump sticker or the rainbow flag or whatever work on my lawn if I don't want to.
26
Sure they are protected. You can’t beat them up. But you don’t have to hire them and you can certainly fire them. I would.
26
Once the homeowner asked the girl to remove her boots they de facto took responsibility for them. They should either track down the offender or offer compensation.
18
@theresa
If one pair of "desirable" boots was stolen, the likelihood that other items belonging to the guests or the hosts having disappeared is higher. The hosts were presumably apprised of the incident in that they assisted in searching for the footwear. The question "well, was anything else missing?" should be part of asking for recompense.
7
@theresa
I think the only legal question is whether the hosts exercised reasonable care. Does this mean policing the area, or the other guests, even if they had no reason to believe a thief was among them? Social hosts are not guarantors. Think off all those signs above the coat rack in restaurants - the ones stating they have no responsibility for stolen items - and these are for profit businesses.
Ethically, the standard could be higher than the law requires- and perhaps the hosts should pay. But legally, there is no case absent proof of negligence.
1
@DWS
I'm not a lawyer so I'm not making a legal case, although I would argue that the fact that they were stolen is proof of negligence. Yes, restaurants warn that they are not responsible for coats left on public racks but I would say that the situation is more like a coat check where the restaurant does bear responsibility for the items.
When is Kwame Anthony Appiah going to publish a book of his "Ethicist" columns? His advice is so wise and learned-- even when one disagrees with it-- that such a volume would quickly become a well-thumbed companion in the quest for a well-lived life.
I'll continue to hope for it.
10
If workmen showed up at my house sporting a confederate flag, I would tell them in no uncertain terms to leave immediately. Period.
51
How badly do you want your roof repaired? Get out your ladder, shingles and nails out and get to work cause finding a work crew of sufficient purity might be a challenge but you can still feel good about yourself. We all deal with racists and other appalling people everyday but we just may not know it....
The boots....too bad. If your daughter values this friendship I would not wrangle with the other parents over this.
13
No need to confront the worker when you can warn your neighbors about him on Yelp, Angie's List and Google Reviews.
19
Traitors (those who fly the Confederate battle flag) shouldn't be hired any more than "illegal" immigrants. Those who fly that abomination deserve deportation. They warrant neither admiration nor respect. What citizenship do they declare? Fire them!!!!
25
There is so much misunderstanding surrounding the Confederate battle flag. When I was young it was a sign of rebellion not racism. But since Dylan Roof used it in his videos before shooting the black folks in the Charleston church - it became a hate symbol all of a sudden. To say nothing of the fact that the average Confederate soldier had no slaves or that Lincoln did not want to make the Civil War about slavery but felt he needed to politically. I am a Civil War historian and look at the Confederate battle flag as a piece of history. We should not rewrite history or hide the things we don’t like. Otherwise what’s the point of learning from history?
34
@Mike L
No one is seeking to delete, rewrite history nor is the facts that most whites never owned slaves the issue here nor and insert to excuse Slavery and the Confederacy
The CF has a ugly history much of it is wrapped in hate and contempt for the humanity of Slaves.
History has many lessons to learn including not intentionally offending others
BLM
52
@Mike L
Read the Confederate Constitution, then try to convince us that the Confederacy was not about slavery.
93
@Mike L I remember in the 80's Tom Petty's "Rebel" song, and his "Rebel" tour. On tour they had a huge flag. It was to celebrate his southern roots.
Years later he said he regretted using the flag, because of what it had come to represent. Not at all what was in his mind at the time.
31
As a lifelong resident of southern states, you are asking for trouble if you confront someone who displays the confederate flag on a vehicle, at least not until he is finished with the job. Don’t hire him again and don’t recommend him to anyone else; if asked, say why. People who go around with a confederate flag on display live to “own the libs.” These are not nice people, and they do not give a single damn what you think.
430
@Luann Nelson : This lifelong resident of southern states agrees. Anyone prominently flying the confederate flag intends to provoke. While he may spout off a bunch of nonsense about his "heritage" first (in the South, "heritage" is a euphemism often used by white supremacists), he's aching for a fight. Unless you're willing to engage in one, confronting him is not the way to go. Better practice is to talk to his employer. I think it's reasonable to request that the worker not display the flag on his vehicle while working on your job. If you don't get an appropriate response from his employer, never hire the employer again and make sure everyone you know is aware of why you will never hire him again.
122
@Luann Nelson yep. Unfortunately, the only thing that would change with a confrontation is the number of teeth the critic has in his or her mouth. As for trying to cost the person his job, that would take things to a whole new, dangerous level. You're not going to cure the world of racism that way. Work for change politically, speak out wisely, and don't assume you get to be in charge of other people's thoughts and actions.
30
@Luann Nelson
I agree a discussion with the worker would not be useful. But, if telling the boss you don't want anyone with a confederate flag on their truck working on your house has a shot at getting that worker moved to another job, or even giving someone second thoughts about how that symbol is going to get them in trouble, I'd say go for it. Anything that reduces the display of racist symbols is a good thing, and the column's author makes a unethical do-nothing argument.
28
Racism and prejudice take many forms.
I lived in Florida several decades ago and needed some minor repairs to my home.
One company's estimator asked me directly "Are you a Christian gentleman?" I told him that wasn't any of his business.
After receiving his (higher than others) estimate, I called his company and talked to the general manager. I stated that asking if I was Christian was not appropriate for the work to be done and that I was rejecting his company's estimate because of the estimator's seeming prejudicial behavior and the impression that the high work estimate was due to my answer to the "Are you a Christian gentleman?" question.
I would have suggested that LW1 call the company that was hired to do the work and cancel the project and state why she was doing so. Economic boycotts have been successful in changing prejudicial attitudes and LW1 should try it for her situation.
50
Re the flag conundrum. It could be both a learning and bonding opportunity. Ask the roofer why he wants to display the flag and what it means to him, but make sure it is not done in an accusatory way; otherwise you most certainly might get an angry and not meaningful response, It may lead to a conversation about why it bothers you and perhaps gets him to think outside his own views.
My analogy is having a Trump or Bernie sticker on a car either of which might offend a voter who passionately cared about one over the other. If you had any thoughts about changing the car owner's vote, would you attack or seek vengeance or engage them thoughtfully?
Flags and bumper stickers and voter buttons and NEGA hats in and of themselves are just symbols. They don't have power unless them inflame or inspire observers. Those who display them are not automatically ill cast; only their actions do that.
Don't make assumptions about others you would not like to be made about you, but social scientists have long known this is not an innate human trait or talent.
11
On LW#1....I have had some success in adopting a collegial, conversational tone with a person or two who displayed a confederate battle flag (I know, I know...what am I doing that I run into these folks?). I start by asking them if they think of themselves a a patriotic American. Of course they say they are a very patriotic American. I then ask if they realize that the confederate battle flag was carried into battle against "Old Glory" in an effort to kill US Army soldiers, and break-up the USA, all to preserve the practice of holding other human beings as slaves. If one avoids calling names or trying to humiliate the person you may have some success in giving them second thoughts about displaying that racist symbol. Good luck.
28
I would not have said anything, but I wouldn't use them again. You don't know this man and he could retaliate or even do something to the roof that looks OK but could result in damage in the future (not securing properly, etc.). These days, I assume someone who is so out of it they display a Confederate flag probably also has a gun in his car.
99
@M.K. Ward I agree - I'd let it go, but next time tell them to not send the guy with the flag.
It was a "small roof repair". It was probably a quick job and the guy was gone in a day.
9
@chrisinroch The company owner knows about the flag. Why keep using that company?
4
Under the heading of: "The customer is always right" I would insist that the roofer get rid of the flag from the employee's truck, finish the job, and look for other roofing companies in the future. I'd also let the roofer know about my decision.
As for fearing retribution, living one's life in fear of actions by potentially violent racists is no way to live. This gains nothing but allowing the racist to win via the threat of implied violence.
16
Confederate flag? "I am embarrassed that people I know and consider friends might believe that the flag is being displayed by me or my family; please either remove it or park somewhere else. Thank you."
38
Would you feel comfortable allowing a man you were paying to repair your house to do something that could injure or deeply frighten your friends and neighbors?
If not, you've got to ask the man to remove the Confederate flag. In today's climate, it isn't a Dukes throwback-- it represents racism, and, frankly, domestic terrorism. This flag doesn't invite civil discourse, it shuts it down.
I would ask him, civilly, to remove his flag when he is at my house, as it can be interpreted as a direct threat to loved ones who call my house home. If I were too intimidated by him to ask him this, I would certainly fire the contractor and I would work with someone who was not (at least overtly) racist.
33
Re: shoes- This sounds like the kind of party you probably shouldn't have let your kid go to. If the friend's parents don't know who is coming and going at their home during a party, that's a red flag, no? I read the first parent and immediately read "several dozen teenagers" as "there is probably booze involved". Seems like shoes getting stolen is a pretty petty problem compared to not knowing what your kid is being exposed to when you take them to a friend's house.
21
Re: shoes. I completely disagree with the advice given. If the daughter attended a big winter party and someone stole her coat, would the mother expect the hosts to pay or file an insurance claim? I suspect not. There shouldn't be a different standard for shoes.
32
@LCNYC
I don't get it. For a $200 coat, why not?
12
Personally I wouldn’t want the confederate flag flier on my property but in this climate I also wouldn’t feel safe once I fired him. It is a conundrum for sure- who knew I would ever feel unsafe in the US from racists and yes that flag is racist - it is meant to intimidate and it does.
It seems I must now ask every contractor to only send workers without MAGA hats and confederate flags. Is this what we have become?
118
@Deirdre bahaha so, you dont care about their political opinions as long as you dont have to deal with them. Meanwhile I'm sure you proudly display your own and expect all to respect them.
9
@JM Did you miss the part that, in general, people who display the confederate flag can and probably should be viewed as violent. And considering the behaviour of our current president, the MAGA hat should be viewed as indicative of violent tendencies.
37
@Deirdre
If not how, when will it be safe enough for you to take a stand? What if it gets much worse, and you still don't take a stand? What if the rest of us do take a stand? We'll take you along with us, but we have to know who you are so - Take a Stand. Now.
8
"We’re entitled to tell one another what we think. The worker has the right of free expression: He gets to exhibit the flag. But you have that right, too: You get to object to someone’s seeming advocacy of the Lost Cause."
with all due respect, that sentiment may work in an ideal world but the reality is if I see someone adopt a confederate flag, I will also assume they are armed. and thanks to the current administration, a confrontation is more likely to turn violent with me being unilaterally disarmed. basically, at least one side's first amendment rights have been curtailed by the nuts with all the guns.
Heck, I don't even drive in the same way anymore.
236
@JA
Not to mention that most states where you would see the flag on a truck are also 'Stand Your Ground' states as well.
24
Right. Which proves we are cowed by fear of violence from an armed Right. Welcome to the Reichstag.
10
LW2 describes a scenario that played out in an episode of Sex and the City. Carrie (Sara Jessica Parker) is obligated to remove her designer shoes to attend the birthday party of a friend's child. Or was it a baby shower? By the end of the party her shoes are missing. She confronts the party hose and they argue about who should pay to replace them. In the show, the party host ultimately paid, but I'd be surprised if the friendship survived the squabble.
59
I would not have an employee or a client with those values. It is a blatant sign of racism and backwards thinking. It does not represent my liberal values.
12
@margaux I prefer to call them human values, but the guy knows where they live and it would be dumb to confront him over this.
7
Regarding letter #1...I see confederate flags very often here in Charlotte and I just ignore them. Not my flag, not my issue (I am African American.)
Regarding letter#2. I love your last PS. It infuriates me when I am in conversations with White people and they just HAVE to make a point of telling me that the person they are talking about are Black. Like, what do I care what they are?? NEWS FLASH...I DON'T. It is my firm belief that it means more to YOU than it does to me.....so STOP IT. I think the owners of the home should have offered to pay and the mother should not have waited so long to approach them about it.
62
@Dineli, thank you for your last point. I’m white, would be deemed conservative by most people and have tried to remind myself to stick to necessary facts. A person’s race is almost always unnecessary to an anecdote and should be omitted, especially when coming from someone who is white. The only time race is really necessary is if you’re giving a description to a police officer and then it’s a fair question. Yes, I had to do it once, the question was asked and I answered it (and the answer was “white”).
14
@Dinelj I'm Asian and it also irks me when people bring up someone or something's Asian-ness in conversation for no reason. But somehow I feel like the mention in letter #2 added context, although I'm not sure why...
4
@Semper Liberi Montani
Then why did you find including the last sentence necessary?
1
I like the “what’s up with that flag?” approach. Then you can go from there. I am willing to give the initial benefit of the doubt that it’s ignorance and not racism, as yes some people really are that ignorant that they wouldn’t know this would be interpreted as racist by the average person.
I live in Germany and it’s customary here (and in a lot of Western European households) to take your shoes off at the door. You literally have to insist as a host that people don’t. Many even have “guest slippers” so people’s feet won’t get cold in the winter.
34
@An American In Germany Are the slippers laundered between uses, or are guests sticking their feet (socks or not) into "dirty" slippers? I'm really curious as I do not insist that people take their shoes off (excepting if it's someone in dirty work boots). I simply keep my floors and carpets very clean and have a very good floor mat at each entrance - also kept clean.
2
@Beth When I have encountered this, they are using communal slippers (which I suppose you would consider to be dirty.. people leave their socks on, they are wool slip-ons). It’s kind of like providing wellies for your guests to venture outside to the mucky parts of the yard. I have also seen people use a basket of big wool rag socks. Both wool slippers and socks can be (and probably are) washed, by the way.
Flag: it’s your Money, Right ? You choose to hire an entire Crew. You are absolutely free to also Fire them. I would.
Shoes: Next Party, wear cheap flip-flops. As the Mother Of someone that STILL loses possessions regularly, cut your losses.
Buy cheap stuff, or make your Child pay for luxury items. If the Party Hosts offers to Pay, fine. If not, lesson learned. Hopefully.
32
@Phyliss Dalmatian I don't understand what lesson could be learned by complying with the hosts' request and then having someone steal her birthday gift.
8
@M.K. Ward
This lesson is to protect your property, OR to wear stuff you wouldn’t mind losing.
Sure, I have shoes/boots that cost $200.00. But, I bought them on Clearance, years ago. I would have left the Party, or asked that my expensive items be stored elsewhere. Common Sense, it’s never too early to learn. Or too late, in some cases. I refuse to buy my own Daughter expensive items any longer. She regularly “misplaces” or “forgets “ something, and it’s Gone. Forever. Cause and Effect, in real Life. She’s almost 40. Seriously.
7
The neighbors will assume that these people hired a racist company to fix their roof or at the least that they condone it now that they see the flag. The owner of the company is absolutely in agreement with this flag on the truck.
I ask the writers do you really want to give your money to people who are white supremacist? I'm live in the south and when early voting opened last week a yelling group of confederate flag wavers showed up very close to the parking lot for voters. Pretty scary. I wouldn't go vote and I'm white, can you imagine having to walk by those yelling men if you're Black. Yes the cops were there but so what.
The husband is an avoider, the type that waits "till they come for you".
They will come for you and this year, when the clown wins.
121
I don’t understand the ethicists responses. For the first letter, he goes out of his way to not really present a clear answer to a racist situation, yet in the second he calls out the letter writer for bringing up that the host family was Asian?!
Here’s what I would have done about that pickup truck with the confederate flag: I’d have told the person I hired that I would not hire him again if he continued to employ someone who displayed that flag. Period.
175
@Kita -- because in the first situation, the racism is blatant and calling it out could be dangerous. And not at all helpful. I thought the part about WHY you are doing it is important -- is it really about the flag, the worker, or you showing what a "good white lady" you are?
In the second, it's the sort of unintentional racism (and other -isms) that's the issue. I remember reading about a middle-aged man who was arrested after sending his underwear to a 13 year old girl he met on line. Every.single.story mentioned that they were size 48 pants. Um, because it would have been OK for a middle-aged man who wore size 34 shorts to send them to an 13 year old girl?
People do this stuff and don't realize that it's racist or sizeist. It's insidious and needs to be called out.
14
@Kita I read the first letter twice, and still don't know what answer is. The addition at the end of a fictional situation doesn't help at all.
13
@Kita, I believe the advice was to have a civil discussion regarding the flag, not a direct confrontation, ie: ask the truck owner what the flag meant to him and then maybe explain why the homeowner felt offended by it. Keep it constructive or avoid the conflict.
8
It is standard practice in Sweden to remove your shoes when entering anyone's home including your own (sometimes known as the "rule of shoes"). People will even bring another pair of shoes to wear inside. That way you don't track in dirt or grime or anything you might have stepped on. Much more sanitary.
63
A marvellous habit shared with the Japanese and the Indians (of India).
5
Most Americans don’t remove their shoes when coming inside. We do it here because of all the sand and dirt around and it is indeed more sanitary. When friends come over many of them think it’s weird, at first, but several of them have adopted our practice in their own homes. I did it when I lived in Italy and in NYC.
6
To each his own, I say.
6
@CGR
And I bet you would have said that in 1930s Germany. Your suggested passivity in the face of racism is pathetic.
18
@CGR : To each his own at home, yes. To each his own at work, absolutely not. At least not when I'm paying your wages.
19
My granddad, a grandson of 2 Confederate soldiers, and many others of his generation, always insisted that the "Cause" was dead and the Confederate flag should be buried not displayed.
Grandad was, I'm sorry to say, a racist but he regarded the displaying of the flag as an affront to those who fought for it.
I tend to think of it as a sort of middle finger salute to modernity and a society and an economy that has left many behind and I have never owned one.
106
@Lynn : The only Confederate flag I'll support is their white flag of surrender! They were traitors to our nation and they lost. Get over it!
46
@Upstater
You must have read something into my comment that I didn't intend.
I'm not a racist and I don't support displaying the flag.
My last sentence was my interpretation of why people are displaying it and, as I said then, I have never owned a Confederate flag.
19
FYI, removing the street shoes or boots is a common practice in many cultures, including the U.S. (do any of your readers have "mud rooms"?), and not just for germaphobes and farmers. Despite the fact the horses no longer are our primary source of transportation, there are some pretty nasty things to step in and on, outside of one's home. It's a sign of respect to not track those things into another person's home.
That said, I do not agree that the home owners are financially responsible for the theft of the boots during a social gathering. Anyone who has children and especially teenagers, passing through their homes will encounter irresponsible or destructive behavior and should take reasonable steps to avoid or remove perpetrators from their home. I think that it is unreasonable to expect excessive monitoring. Rather if one has something very valuable that they want protected, ask their host for some extra protection by placing it in a separate place. Or only go to homes fitted out with security cameras.
49
@TravelingTrina: No, most NYC apartments do NOT have "mud rooms"!
And tracking stuff into the home is good for people's immune systems (unless the person in question has a compromised immune system).
You know what's really nasty? Bare feet!
I have lived my entire life without having to take off my shoes when going into someone's home. I don't take off my shoes when I enter my own home, unless the shoes are dripping wet or very muddy. And I'm still alive & healthy.
As far as I'm concerned, the only place where your level of concern about footwear is appropriate would be if you're discussing the a very specific location, such as the operating room at a hospital, or a "clean room" at a medical or manufacturing facility.
6
I'm not convinced that the parents should pay for the stolen boots. Increasingly, when bad things happen to people they expect someone -- anyone -- to pay. Did you slip on the ice and get bruised? Sorry, it's February: there's ice. Yes, I realize that the Yellow Pages are full of personal-injury lawyers who say otherwise.
Be angry with the thief. Resolve not to wear expensive boots where you'll have to leave them unattended. Don't blame the parents who were, in a sense, co-victims of this crime.
204
@K D P I'd be inclined to agree with you if the party were at a bowling alley or a Chuck E. Cheese. But the party was in a private home. I doubt most people have an image of themselves as a host who needs to send a party invite with a "don't leave your personal belongings unattended and leave your valuables at home, we will not be responsible" disclaimer. Reimbursing your guest, even if you are the co-victim of the theft, is the gracious thing to do.
25
@K D P As the homeowners it is a matter of settled law that they are responsible for the safety and well being of those they allow in the home. Ethically this extends to the property they bring with them as well.
The homeowners allowed the thief into the house and their other guests suffered as a result of their action. They are clearly responsible.
Your hypothetical ice scenario is completely irrelevant since this is not anything like that scenario.
22
@K D P , did the guest who lost her boots go home barefoot? did the hosts provide some kind of footwear?
8
The ethnic comment was mostly likely due to the probability that the LW does not associate with many "multiethnics," guests are not commonly asked to remove their shoes, and therefore thought it necessary to explain the "unusual practice" ... at least to them.
21
The husband in Maine is absolutely correct. The wife is morally correct but the husband is a wise old owl. He knows it would be very easy for the roofer(s) to forget a few nails here and there as they are installing the roof. Best to leave well enough alone.
134
Guess we should never take a stand on anything then. You never know when/how someone might retaliate. . .
28
@cadv lib
True. If a worker came to your house with a Nazi flag, or a flag of any other defeated enemy, you should beware.
20
@cadv lib , no one has said that whatsoever. I spoke for Occupy down here and risked my job. I've been in protests with indelible ink lawyer number on my arm. But I don't go around telling people on the street that they are offending me with their self-expression. There are safer ways to take a stand, ways that might actually do more than prove you're right, to yourself. While merely increasing the hatred around you.
10
In place of the (admittedly erudite) nine-paragraph answer invoking Immanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill, Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Dukes of Hazzard and Percival Everett, I would offer this: The Confederate battle flag is offensive to every right-thinking person. My advice to the letter writer would be equally succinct. Take the boss of the roofing crew aside, tell him that I will permit no one displaying that flag to work on my property, and politely ask him and his crew to leave. Then hire someone else.
213
Even though I am offended by the Confederate flag, in this case I would say nothing to anybody as long as it is parked on a public street. In my experience, people who exhibit these kind of symbols do it to get a rise out of those of us who are uncomfortable with them. You can pretty much guarantee the owner of this truck with the flag would not take your offense seriously. Sadly, in this time in our country, he may point a gun at your in the worse case scenario or intentionally sabotage something on the roof he is fixing for you. Better to be safe than sorry.
54
The writer of the first question should be prepared for questions in turn if she's going to ask them. They might not be questions that would involve answers that would flatter her self-regard.
Solidarity begins by seeing we where we are inclined to see us and they.
The place to start her is for the writer to consider how much she might have in common with whoever put that decal on the truck. And think hard and self-critically about that.
You can't change other people. You can change yourself.
8
@Karl
You can't change other people. You can change yourself.
Phewy. Silly. FIRE THEM.
14
@Karl: But you CAN put an anti-Trump bumper sticker on their truck when they're not looking!
12
@W
She doesn't even have to fire them. She can tell the foreman, or the owner of the company that next time she doesn't want a truck with a stars n bars associated with work done on her property, and she'll cancel a job if she sees it again.
9
To be fair, the Confederate battle flag is not necessarily a racist symbol. The Confederate battle is displayed by a swathe of southern households as a memorial and cultural symbol. Keep in mind the civil war cost the country around 700,000 men and the South didn't have very many to go around.
However, while the flag can be offensive to some, it appears overall petty to want to address a worker about a Confederate flag, as long as he's not actively harassing anyone. If we're going to get offended over flags that have had past racist connotations, we're probably gonna have to scrap every flag on the planet as well.
37
@Ryan It is very disrespectful to display that flag in the northern US.
31
@Ryan There was a time--maybe ten years ago--when I think the Confederate flag was displayed as a simple display of Southern pride or as a sign of rebelliousness. But just as society has learned the "N" word is racist, so have we learned what displaying the Confederate flag means today: at the very least, ignorance of the pain many of us (predominantly black and increasingly white) feel on seeing it. Even Dolly Parton has removed it from her "Dixie Stampede" advertisements in Missouri, as clear a sign as any that pride in southern heritage doesn't need to embrace a symbol associated directly with the horrors of slavery.
42
@Ryan
as a memorial and cultural symbol
A symbol of traitors to this country. A symbol of a system that allowed for the ownership of other human beings. A symbol of death and menace.
Your equivocation is foul. You are just another Southern racist.
45
Of course, it is well known that nothing can anger humans more than symbolism. Way down in the lizard brain, I suppose.
So, here is a white supremacy symbol meant to get a reaction.
The time for this battle rag to be forgotten is long in coming.
There is no reason to be proud of this unless you are harboring racist sentiments. I see them nearly every day here, but they are becoming more and more obsolete.
Even as the city barbershop sells them.
"What's up with the flag"? That is a good start.
"What are you trying to say"? That is a better question.
Nostalgic for the old days? Why in Maine?
I believe that stressing the overt implications of the display and also that this type of attitude towards race and white-is-right is getting rather tiresome and counter productive.
I would talk to the owner of the flag directly, and if there is unpleasantness on his part, well then take it from there as a business issue.
34
In Canada you always take your shoes off in someone's home, unless specifically invited to keep your shoes on. Even then, most people will still remove them.
I think the wearer has a responsibility to keep an eye on their belongings. If you left your purse by the door, would the home-owner be responsible as well?
Presumable the girl knew that was the custom at her friend's home.
35
@Jane If the girl had left her purse by the door, that would have been her decision. It was not her decision to take off her boots.
41
I disagree. You always have a choice. She could have asked for her shoes to be kept in a more secure area, or ran home to change, or just decided the party wasn't for her. When you go into another person's home, you accept the circumstances of that occasion voluntarily. She was not kept there against her will, but merely asked to follow a simple, fairly widespread rule. The fact is that someone took advantage of the situation, and it is that person's transgression that resulted in the theft, not any transgression of the household owners (who were also taken advantage of). There is no vetting requirement for who we allow into our home, and we are not secondarily responsible for their unpredictable actions.
21
@Jane, What she did NOT know was that the party would grow so large due to the lack of supervision of the parents. The original invitees were probably trustworthy. The parents are the real problem here for not keeping control of their own house.
24
LW 1: Arguably one could become offended by your neighbor displaying the Stars and Stripes, especially if you are Native American and see the flag representing the dispossession of your native lands and heritage.
Most would agree that that would be taking offense to a unrealistic extreme.
The question when does realistic offense become unrealistic?
23
@Bernie One is a flag of the country in which one lives. The other is a flag of secession. While it is possible for people to be offended by either, the presence of the first is a normal occurrence and not necessarily a political or cultural preference (although some people use it as such, Americans of many different backgrounds can claim the flag as their own). However, the presence of the second is both a violation of the norm and a clear signal of a political or cultural presence. It is an unequivocal provocation against the norm. There is a very clear difference between the two.
94
@not nearsighted
"violation of the norm and a clear signal of a political or cultural presence. It is an unequivocal provocation against the norm."
Are you willing to live with that statement as a hard-and-fast rule?
You shouldn't, as the rule you propose would be utterly stifling.
6
@Bernie Under the current political circumstances, I do, indeed, frequently consider the display of the Stars and Stripes to be offensive.
But to protest would eliminate most if not all hiring of contract work.
3
The roofer hired the worker and must see him drive that truck at every job. He must have calculated that the flag may be costing him business but apparently doesn't mind.
What makes you think that he doesn't have the same ideas and values as the worker?
223
@Peter Jenkins I guess the customer's only response should be to note the Roofing company's values on on all public forums and rating agencies.
If it is a genuine belief, the flag will remain, if not, the matter will be resolved.
21
@SK
The willingness of the right-thinking to engage in subtle censorship is disgusting.
5
@Clotario , the bravery of people who don't know what they are talking about is impressive, though.
17