The ghostwriter might want to think about how any revelations might be viewed by other past, present, or future clients.
18
Nooo to LW 1: what’s important is the health and happiness of your children, not exonerating your actions or giving your ex-wife her comeuppance. If she is “still single” or less financially stable than you, that’s irrelevant. You don’t say that her “lies” are hurting your relationship with your sons, but you seem to have an overweening need to be right. I have no doubt that your marriage was hurtful. But you have moved on. Meanwhile, you have a son who has had substance abuse issues and is now in prison. He has enough to deal with - he doesn’t need you to tell him what a terrible mother he has.
I went through a painful divorce, and my ex disparaged me to my children. I wouldn’t do that because they were experiencing enough pain themselves. Guess what - they ultimately figured it out for themselves. They no longer talk with him - surprise, surprise, he wound up hurting them too - but we have a wonderful, enduring relationship.
The truth will out. Your job is to be their father - no matter their age - not their imperfect mother’s eternally wounded ex-husband.
33
@Dee I agree - my parents divorced and my mom blamed it all on my dad and was badmouthing him at every opportunity, whereas he was extremely careful not to do the same. If her words are as overt as they sound, the kids most likely already know. Personally, the fact that my dad was respectful to his former partner was a huge point in his favor, and my relationship with him is much better than that with my mom.
10
I'm a bit surprised at the advice to the divorced father of the grown children. Whatever happened to not betraying a confidence. His ex-wife did not call a family meeting to share her transgressions. She called a personal meeting. Her behavior sounds quite damaging, but the father should focus on his relationship with his children and be thankful that he gout out when he did and has moved to what is a good life by his own account. I don't see what good can come from the father using inside information to essentially retaliate against his ex-wife.
21
Regarding LW1, the situation is not only abnormal, it is damaging the children (now adults). The mother is damaging her sons, and does not care about doing so. Psychologically, the cornerstone is that the mother feels it is appropriate to hurt her own children to benefit herself.
It is likely that she has been doing damage to their children prior to the divorce. This is not new. She may even have culpability in causing psychological damage to her older son, and causing his troubles with jail. This is the most troubling part. There are parents who harm their children, as we see with trump.
The answer by The Ethicist, Ms. Appiah, is entirely appropriate and recommended by experts who understand this issue, called Parental Alienation. This is not brainwashing, which commonly occurs in family separations. This is more severe.
Thus, the father has limited ways to correct the harms already done by the mother. The father does need to carefully inform the children, to build their defenses to stem further harm. No one else can or will. The mother will continue destroying their relationships, unless the father intervenes carefully, by keeping his sons' emotional safety primary. Unless the father intervenes, she will sabotage their relationships. In such cases, the children do not act as adults. Their emotional brain was hijacked.
If allowed to continue, she can eventually make them hate or fear their father. The psychology is akin to the dynamics in a cult.
15
At 16 years old, one of my children told me he had believed the terrible things his father had told him about me when we were going through our divorce and my son was just 9 or 10 years old. It broke my heart to know my little hoy thought those things. I didn't know this back then. but I knew he was smearing me and it was the most difficult thing I have ever done to keep quiet. Not only to not disparage him but to nor defend myself (against what? I had an idea but I knew that sooner or later my children would learn for themselves). These were CHILDREN and now that they are young adults they have seen their father for the truth. They have also seen me as an example of how they should behave.Your children are adults. You are divorced. Why are you still incontact with your ex wife? Your realtionship with your adult children us a driect one. ot involving her. They will know you, the truth, and what your relationship is about. That is all they need to know from you. The rest they surely suspect. The truth always comes out oj its own.
9
@Bonnie How does the truth come out if, of the 2 people who know it, one is lying and the other is silent? But onto ethics: Is the LW asking if it ethical to tell them his side of the story, or is he asking if it is unethical to not tell them?
6
Concerning LW1, to me there are two camps of respondents, those that theorize being in the situation, and those that have been in the situation. The theorists seem to recommend the high road. For me, being in a similar situation, there are four reasons to respond:
1. Giving adults facts is a crucial part of decision making. Providing facts alone, without opinion, creates a basis for discussion, inquiry, and reflection.
2. Although not explicit, since the ex-wife is having financial difficulty, it will most likely fall on the children to support her future. It's important that they understand why the father is not willing to support the ex-wife.
3. Again not explicit, but if her behavior is common knowledge among the community, friends and/or family, it behooves the father to educate his sons, so that they hear it from a direct source, and are prepared when they eventually hear it from someone else.
4. It is natural for those close to the issue to take sides. Nobody wants to, but it happens. Allowing only one side of the story, especially when fictitious, to be heard, distorts the relationships even further. Get the facts out front, then worry about damage control.
I recommend writing a letter and reading it aloud to the kids. Avoid opinion. Be prepared for blow back but know in your heart and mind that you educated your kids in a methodical and compassionate way, so that they have the tools to deal with similar issues in the future.
13
@FrequentFlyer , you assume wrongly that anyone disagreeing with you is disqualified as inexperienced. “Theorists?” You do your case no good that way, starting with an unjust effort to mischaracterize opponents. Many of us have in fact been embroiled in cases where accusations from parents, each convinced they “had to set the record straight” dumped their spouse’s ugliness, and their own, on their children. Even in this case, the LW is not answering the accusations against himself—apparently the sons will be left with those and also a fresh helping of dirt from dad against mom. She’ll learn this, and then “have to” answer in kind. Again. And yes, we have experienced enough to know. The “children” aren’t living just to learn whether mom or dad is “the bad one.” That’s the parents’ obsession. Adult kids have problems of their own. Let them go and dispense with your “case against mom.” Nobody wins.
9
There is a time and place for revealing the truth after divorce, and it may not have the effect you hope it has. Considering the age of your children is paramount and understanding your own motivation for revealing what truth you know is essential. As to the first condition, keep in mind that even young adult children may not be ready to hear the granular truth about their parents’ relationship. My own child had to get through her twenties before she was ready and, even then, I offered to tell her, but let her make the decision. (Her curiosity won out, and she said she wanted to know.) But the second condition, motivation, is also key. Why do you want to reveal what may trigger pain for your child and you all over again, when you are revealing truth, that at its best, is your own version of it as you can best understand it and, at its worst, is your own defensive construct built to appease your own guilt? It is difficult to fully answer this question, but still important to consider it. As much as I disliked the criticisms my ex-husband was leveling against me with our daughter, I also knew there was no winning a war of words and insults. After all, we had already done that in 25 years of marriage. But when she entered into her own serious relationship with someone, I thought the time was right since she might be able to benefit from a deeper and wider look at how our lives might affect hers.
5
To the Dad wondering what to say to his sons: Maybe try an Al-Anon meeting, esp since one son has addiction issues. Al-Anon offers helpful guidelines re family issues, like honestly asking oneself, "Does this need to be said? Does this need to be said by me? Does this need to be said by me right now?"
They believe we can't really change another person, that most people will figure out what's true on their own, in their own time. If your sons ask you, be honest, but neutral. Try to look deeply at your own motivations, then be compassionate to everyone concerned, including yourself.
10
@M.E. There is little research to verify if the 12-step Al-Anon programs are actually significantly beneficial. "They help who they help" is about the best one can say.
7
Kwame parses his response to LW#1 in two important ways: The personal (children) and the legal (non-disparagement clause). I agree with both assessments regarding these specific parameters. There is, as others note, an important third path at play: The high road. As framed, the "moral" question is A) when to take it (the high road) and B) who does this path serve? It might be argued that, in many cases, the chooser of the "high road" bears no obvious victory from such a choice. The "truth" is not outed in plain sight for the children--in fact, it is purposely sublimated. Nor is the chooser victorious in a contract dispute by arguing a clause has been broken. It's arguably a Pyrrhic victory that, in the end, appears more petty than air-clearing. How to live one's life as a moral and loving person, without the insecure need to prove or perform that morality? That's the abiding question: Will those around us eventually see (without our prompting) the "truth" of our higher moral choice? Take that nagging doubt out of the equation and one is closer to the top of the mountain.
3
In addition to my own contribution, I had to solicit donations to the United Way from subordinates at my place of business as part of my job. Everyone who did this at other companies in our city was invited to a champagne brunch as a "thank you" at a high end restaurant. To pay for this the United Way was using contributions we had collected. I refused to go, saying that money would be so much better spent on people who really needed it. I almost lost my job over this comment!
17
@BP
Although it's way off the topic of this article, my experience with the United Way is that it is a racket designed to guilt-trip working people (employees) to cough up what is disingenuously called "my fair share," in order to make the higher ups in the company look good. I always make personal, voluntary donations to charities of my choice, but this didn't matter. I'm not saying the United Way has never done anything worthwhile, but I was required to give a so-called donation in order to keep my job...and that's not a donation, it is extortion. Lucky for you, you didn't lose your job.
30
@BP
Similar situations transpired many years ago when I solicited (separately) donations for CARE and the American Heart Association. As a result, I am wary of contributing.
1
LW1: I can't tell if the LW is worried that the sons are actually *believing* the ex's lies or if he's just annoyed that she's telling them?
I'd be livid about the lying. But, that's not a reason to trouble your sons, I'd say. And honestly, she probably WANTS the father talking about her. She sounds....... unbalanced.
If the father is worried that the sons are buying all the lies, I feel more torn. You want to say something to defend yourself, but it doesn't necessarily look good to say, "Well, your mother's a liar and a cheat." You could maybe say, "What your mother has told you about the reason she left is very different from what she told me. But I can't tell you what she told me. You're going to have to reach your own determination about what you think happened and how to apportion blame, based on what you know of our characters and behavior."
The way she talks to her own children about you, the way she lies about them--she can't be a great mother, and they have to have noticed this.
4
@bess
No, do not suggest that your children determine how to apportion blame!
9
“I’m not sure that they will eventually see the truth for themselves, in light of the constant disparagement of me by their mother. I am now happily married to a wonderful woman and have become financially secure. My ex-wife is still single and claims to be financially struggling.”
1. Your sons and daughters are able (I assume) to look upon things objectively. They recognize both their Mom and Dad for who each truly is.
2. When you disparage someone, it’s generally you who looks worse.
3. You, (the Dad) have moved on, remarried, and are happy in a relationship that works. Be grateful. The wife, (who apparently caused most of this mess), is still struggling. Things could have turned out much worse.
4. Talk kindly about your wife. She is still struggling. The ‘high-road’ always has the better vantage point.
5. Extend mercy. It’s a small gesture but it’s oh so powerful.
278
@PC. Almost totally agree and would add that LW1 is allowed in his defense to state to his children, without elaboration, that his ex-wife greatly exaggerates her grievances.
39
@PC
While I don't think the dad should be going out of his ways to disparage the mom, the turn the other cheek/be merciful/you are doing better than she is has one big problem, she is actively trying to drive a wedge between the father and the kids. My guess would be the wife is bitter that her plan for happiness failed with the other guy (not a big surprise, a woman who leaves her marriage for another guy who is married and expects him to get divorced as well, well, is pretty naive, it fails 99% of the time; the guy basically wants sex) and so is lashing out against the father, not to mention in her own head she probably blames the father for what happened to the marriage, to make her feel better for ruining it.
Telling the truth is not disparaging, doesn't have to be. He simply can tell the sons something like "boys, your mom and I got divorced because your mom wasn't happy and was seeing other men, she left the marriage when she felt she had found someone else to marry.". To make it non corrosive, you can say something like "Obviously, your mom wasn't happy with our marriage, there probably were things I could have done better, and in the end she left it because she felt like it would make her happier and I felt it would be better, too". It doesn't paint her as something dirty, it acknowledges that the dad wasn't perfect, and the kids get perspective on what happened.
64
@PC
I agree. The ex wife clearly has serious behavioral issues and undiagnosed conditions that are keeping her down and bound to scuttle ant real relationships now and in the future.
She sounds worse off than you. Offer compassion. Despite the impulse for revenge. Your kids are watching. Set a good example. They already have a bad example in her.
20
re: disaparagement - all I can say is, get in line behind the rest of us who have the same problem.
May I suggest that there is a larger issue - that of ALIENATION, not of the spouse, but of the CHILDREN.
This goes on all the time and causes a lot of problems.
ALIENATION OF AFFECTIONS, which is typically considered an action against a person who alienates the affections of another person who is married to the person, has fallen into disuse and disfavor in some jurisdictions (witness the enactment, some time ago too, of the so called "anti-heart balm" statutes in CA) altho it still exists in some states (Utah is an example, but I don't think its the only one).
Its usually a common law tort remedy (again, other jurisdictions may be different), whereas the "anti-heart balm" statutes are obviously not.
Interested persons might want to look into this to see what can be done in their situation, because this IS a problem in divorces, and I would argue that this is a WIDESPREAD problem.
N.B.: the foregoing is informational ONLY, and should not be considered by anyone to be legal advice.
11
@jake - no, “alienation of affection” is legal grounds for divorce, where one spouse alleges that a third party caused the divorce, i.e., an adulterous situation. The “wronged” spouse can actually sue the person who “broke up” a so-called happy marriage. Amazingly, this law is still on the books in several states. What you are describing is “parental alienation syndrome,” which has been dismissed by both the scientific and legal communities as junk science. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/judicial/publications/judges_journal/2015/summer/parental_alienation_syndrome_30_years_on_and_still_junk_science/
2
The best advice I ever got in life was from a counselor when I was in the divorce process and was being slimed by you-know-who. He said "Bite your tongue. You will alienate your kids wo, after all, are one half her. Instead, say "My counselor advises me not t say anything bad about anybody." He told me to have faith that the truth will win out, and that the kids will respect me more when the truth finally does come out.
He was 100% right and I'm so thankful for the advice.
It was also one of the hardest tasks I ever undertook. Boy, was my tongue bloody from time to time, and tears were shed by me and the kids. But in the long run, they saw whatis real and whatisn't, and our relationships are loving beyond my wildest dreams.
16
@Steve Traina : So true. The advice I've shared with many individuals is simply "Don't lower yourself to their level". You don't have to explain yourself to kids (even adult children). They will grow up to see each parents true colors. They're smarter than you think.
9
On the subject of charities...what we have to understand is that regardless of how sincere the people are about the stated purpose of the charity, if they are taking a salary from that organization then they are just doing a JOB...so why would you go out to lunch with them as tho they were friends ? They are obviously trying to get more money out of you, which is the purpose of their job, and schmoozing you to that end.....you are the patsy !!! You do not have to go to lunch with everybody that asks you, and if you then find they refrain from contributing to the check, you are falling into their little game. Stand up & be 'men' everybody....I used to be a 'softie' years ago - nowadays I will ask you what your actual purpose is while you are smiling sweetly at me - you cannot fool me these days !
4
Let me understand this, your x-wife did horrible things when the two of you were married and you want to bring her down to your children? She trashed you in front of your children, for a while and you want to do the same? WOW!! How does this help you to move from this situation? In my opinion it doesn't. The only thing you can do is go to a therapist (I say this because, they really do help), and when the time comes invite your son to the therapy with you. See if your son, would also go to therapy. Your x-wife is toxic and all she wants to do is bring you and our children down. Don't allow her to do this!!! Don't be like her, you can't understand a person like this. I'm pretty sure your children have lots of problems because of Mom's behavior and how the lifestyle was when they grew up. You want to understand your x-wife, watch "Deadly women" on Investigation discovery channel. You'll see many women, just like your x-wife. The only difference is you're alive.
1
It is quite likely that she was just messing with your head. Yah, she cheated, but probably less than she claimed. It is a not uncommon tactic to drive a stake in your heart. I would seek to enforce the no-disparagement clause. If you want to have some fun, you can say in your motion that you have been soooo very restrained regarding all the stuff she confessed to you that you have not told your children. Don't go into details, just note she bragged about the multiple affairs and multiple one night stands she said she had. Keep it neutral, though it would not hurt to note that such activity puts you at risk for some serious STD's [I would suggest you get tested anyway]. This is not a time for seeking to get back (the judge has heard it all before), it is a time for restraint, unless of course she passed on an STD. A sentence or two will do the trick. Never put up with this sort of garbage from your ex. Your kids deserve better. Again. Get tested bro. The one-night stands especially are a serious STD risk. Protect yourself and any future loves in your life. And don't forget to practice safe sex.
3
@LawyerTom
"just note she bragged about the multiple affairs and multiple one night stands she said she had. Keep it neutral"
Um, that is not neutral.
Look, it's really simple: "disparaging" someone means saying bad things about them. It's not about whether the bad things are true or not. Telling your kids their mother had multiple one night stands is disparaging her. Your children will not benefit from this.
If they ask you, don't lie to them. Otherwise, the advice not to disparage your ex in front of your kids is really, really simple. It may not be easy, but it is definitely very simple. Just don't do it.
3
Father seems he wants to let his sons know about their mother for primarily vindictive reasons. She told him what the problems was with her and their marriage and maybe expected or him to keep it between the both of them. I suspect he is not Mr Perfect either. Just makes the situation worst. He could have another conversation with her expressing her bad mouthing him and I really don't believe he hasn't said anything bad about her. One side of the story.
4
LW1, your sons are young men, not little children. They can assess their mother for who she is, and understand her inappropriate behavior. Defend yourself without defaming her. It is a sad situation, but they are not oblivious. Half of her genetically is in your sons. One son has likely mental health issues and is incarcerated.
You can be honest, but try to be compassionate and don't vilify her. Your ex sounds mentally unstable. This must be quite painful for your sons.
4
LW2: Charity or no charity: to invite someone out to lunch and expect them to pick-up the tab is poor form.
It's especially misleading in this circumstance because one would think it's a thank you to a donor. If the charity can't afford the lunch then they should not invite their donors out.
That was extremely tacky and I could imagine it left a bad taste in the donor's mouth.
20
Good God! You are way off in #1, IMHO, for advising this Father to divulge negative info about these men's Mother. He would only be modeling pettiness and bitterness and giving them permission to do the same to others. The more compassionate way would be to stay out of her business, both past and present, and to stay in integrity.
5
Dad, worst thing parent can do. Destroys the child. Former clinician working w tortured, abused & traumatized children.
Suspect child may benefit from this approach, my clients did. 1st recommendation; see a competent, trusted therapist who specializes in divorce and children. You may want to tell her/him you suspect parental alienation.
My resource; “A Safe Place to Grow” by Vivienne Roseby, PhD. Highly utilized, clear and informative. She & Janet Johnston, PhD, created largest, oldest, ongoing research study of effects of parental alienation. Seminal work, in active use.
My model: Depends on age of child, talk about what’s going on btw the parents. How child feels about it. Discuss effects, physical, emotional and mental. Afterward, child almost immed. feels relief. Function of hope, getting help from trusted, understanding adult.
Critical question I asked, "Who are you? Are you mostly. like your mom? Or your dad? Usually, answer is both! If not, look bit deeper. See what similarities are there. Gently ask about those. Not an issue, most kids get they are like both.
I saw each parent individually w/o child. On Saturday for a reluctant one. Explained impact on child. Father did not believe me. No problem. Suggest we ask your son. Ok.
Son comes in, 8 yrs. old. I ask “Who are you Chris?” I am my mom and my dad. Works well. Dad got it, issues still arise, dealt w on case by case basis. Alienation stopped. Best part, child asks when he needs to go see the counselor.
2
Regarding Letter #1, the ex-wife is a classic NARCISSIST. Divide-and-conquer is their game, and they will lie and then deny having lied, etc. The whole point (to the narcissist) is to protect their own fragile ego, even when that is done at the expense of truth, reality, and destroying relationships. This woman sounds like a textbook example.
The ex-wife, in blaming her ex-husband for EVERYTHING that went wrong, including the son's addiction, is doing everything an always-manipulative narcissist will do to deflect any blame from HER (despite her admissions of wrong-doing), and load it ALL onto her ex-husband.
I think Kwame needs to SERIOUSLY inform himself about narcissists and their ways.
And the ex-husband who wrote Letter #1 should consider going 'no contact' with his ex-wife, b/c she will NEVER change.
3
The tale about the Ghostwriting has perhaps the single most profoundly amusing and, indirectly, 'spot-on', pronouncement I've read in ages. I offer kudos to you, Kwame for your usage of '(ahem)' in parenthesis. Only a single-celled organism would not know of whom you speak!
4
What a spooky illustration for the first letter. It sure lines up with the idea that the mother is the evil Medusa and the father and sons are total victims--but, as is par for the course for breakup narratives, we can only hear one side of the story and it's usually spin.
I used to have terribly toxic stepfather who tightly controlled all the finances and treated my under-educated mother like his indentured servant, brood mare, and concubine. He didn't cheat but he would verbally abuse her constantly and make it so it was impossible for her to work and save money to get out of the situation. He kept her isolated from her friends and family.
Women who are financially abused often try to escape their situation by finding another man.
I find it interesting that the author of this letter uses his wife's financial difficulties as evidence against her. Perhaps he has something to do with it.
It is strange that the he so concerned about the mother's spin that he thinks he should counteract by revealing what a "loose woman" she is to her sons.
4
I am confused that LW2 views his donation as so significant that he deserves to be invited to lunch presumably so the charity can show its appreciation. What arrogance.
1
@Skippy THEY invited HIM. Why?
3
Since Trump's first book, The Art of the Deal, was a best-seller and has undergone several printings, the truth behind the writer the has emerged in his presidency shows an inveterate liar and his biographers and ghost-writers are almost eager to point out the truth and expose the lies. And their doing so is truly no surprise as the "malignant narcissist" knows no truth.
2
Re: the ghostwriter. Yes, please expose the man before he becomes president.
16
How about a general principle of this column, so that it doesn't have to be repeated again and again? A parent's responsibility is to love his or her children and to do what is best for them. For them. Disparaging the other parent is bad for everyone but most of all the children, including adults.
So many other letter writers seem to want to make the writer feel better by doing something harmful to someone else, in the name of what is right. Sometimes it is, but so much meanness. Cruelty is contagious.
7
@Stephen Could be that the best, for the adult children, is to know the character of the mother and father.
@Roger , the character of neither is likely angelic, and a bitter divorce opens the door to the intimate and horrid nastiness that a married couple knew and now sort through for weapons. If this man were an angel, or blameless as he seems by his own account, he would be concerned with answering the “disparagement” against him—not with regaling the kids with sexual disparagement of their mother. There is almost certainly blame on both sides—but that is not the children’s responsibility, nor burden, nor even business. Grown children are not driving these “cases” of parental accusations or revelations. They have their own lives. The parents need to solve their own problems. Talk to your kids about their lives, your current life—and leave “your mom/dad is a monster” out. Absolutely out.
4
Worst thing parent can do is tell a child those things! Harms the child. I am a former clinician who worked w tortured, abused & traumatized children.
1st, may want to see a competent, trusted therapist specialing in divorce/children. Ask if this is parental alienation.
In my experience,“A Safe Place to Grow” by Vivienne Roseby, PhD, clear and informative. She & Janet Johnston, PhD, did the largest, oldest, ongoing research on the effects of parental alienation. Seminal work, in active use.
The therapist will explore what’s going on between the parents and how a child feels about it. Afterward, child typically feels some relief. Function of being able to get help from a trusted adult who understands.
A critical question I always asked the child alone was "Who are you? Mostly like mom? Or dad? Usually, their answer is both! If not, you may want to look a bit deeper. See what similarities you find, and gently ask about those.
It's not an issue, most kids know they are like both.
Most parents, seen individually, will come to appreciate the impact on the child. Some parents don't believe it. No problem. When asked, in the presence of that parent, the child will usually say both.” I am my mom and dad."
Works quite well. Issues may still arise and can be dealt w on a case by case basis. Best part? The child asks to see the therapist whenever she/he needs to.
2
I don't know the jurisdiction of the divorce but any provisions relating to minor children have no legal effect once the minor children become emancipated adults.
The father should let his adult children know what happened.
5
On Disparagement. The writer asserts he wants to "tell the truth" because of exe's alleged disparagement will damage his relations with adult sons. However, he seems to have working relations with both, and doesn't allege estrangement. He provides not even a vague idea of the alleged 'false' claims against him. The sons will always be the children of both parents, regardless of age, and infidelity by one's mother can be very upsetting with a profound psychological impact. The truth would hurt them, not her. Certainly, all adults should have some sophistication regarding the complexity and contradictions of monogamy, but usually one's parents are not the best example to use. Unfortunately, the oppressed condition of women, still with a weaker financial and social position relative to ex-husbands feeds the dynamic of the bitter vengeful sniping at the ex-husband, as was the case in my family. There is almost no rage like that arising from divorces, with children mean one cannot just forget the ex, and parental duties feed competition over children. Engaging in a spiteful clash of dueling divorce narratives will do no good, and will certainly inflict more wounds with untold consequences for all, children and parents. The most that should be said is, "Sons, not everything your mother says in anger about us, or me, is always true. I'm sure you understand that. Never forget we both love you." Period.
23
As a retired fundraising professional, I’d like to offer a comment about the donor and the luncheon. The development office of a non-profit generally has money in its budget for what’s known as donor cultivation, i.e. the process of bringing a donor closer to the organization and encouraging their support. This money does not come from contributions, as they are restricted to the mission of the organization. I always found this process very helpful, as it provides the opportunity to update the donor, learn more about their philanthropic goals and get feedback from them. By the way, I would never have let the donor pick up the check!
22
@Christine Barabasz So where do these mysterious funds for "donor cultivation" come from? Does the non-profit organization keep two set of books: One for funds that are from contributions to be used only furthering the mission of the organization and one set for all other organizational purposes? I doubt it? All spending should be to further the purpose of the organization and I think that includes "donor cultivation" and, if not, it shouldn't be spent. Sounds like rationalization.
And I agree with another one on the comments made in this column: Why are you having the lunch and, if you are a major supporter, why don't you buy the lunch? If the organization pays for the lunch and you made tax deductible donations to it, you should reduce your taxable donation by the cost of the lunch.
2
@Tom Wilson I'm guessing that the donor cultivation budget is funded by maybe a "friends of" group or a deep pocketed individual rather than the people being solicited for funds to help with this or that cause. But I think its tacky for the charity to expect a donor to pick up the check. If finances are tight better to meet for coffee or at an office where a meal wont be part of the equation.
4
I believe your answer is wrong. You forget that the children are 1/2 their mother. To run her down is telling them they are 1/2 bad too. My two sons figured it out when they were in college. And even then, I would tell them that their father's parents got married very young and weren't terrific parents. Kids can see the difference between a warm, loving household and an angry one. Love your kids and let them love their mother, flaws and all.
10
LW1: when your younger son is 18, give him, and the older son, facts, the most important facts concerning the divorce. Don't ever disparage your ex; it won't help them understand her, and it won't make you feel good, and it's likely to bite you hard.
If you have any documents, keep them for your sons. They will see her character for themselves.
3
And then there is the dilemma for the paternal grandmother: her own son being defamed to his sons. I am by nature someone who insists upon doing the right thing for the right reason. The expression is "between the horns of a dilemma" and both can/may do great harm.
My granddaughter, my daughter's daughter has said of this, "Grandma, if you don't tell them when they're older, I will!" There is that.
No, no, a thousands times no! The only thing that children need to know about a divorce is that it had nothing to do with them. As far a what the wife has to say, blaming the victim (the husband for the divorce) is how one relieves themselves of guilt. Take the high road. Children will know all they need to know in time.
13
LW1 could probably ascertain if his kids believe his ex. If it seems they do, they he should lay out the facts without qualifying them. If they don’t, let it go. They could be told about the non-disparagement clause in any case.
2
I disagree with the Ethicist's reply. He should take the high road, or at least have a frank but vague discussion with each son about their mother and how she has severe mental problems. That kind of behavior she's displayed is not normal. The sons can probably already tell that there's something wrong with her. It's best if the father just has a good relationship with the sons and not worry about what his ex says. Otherwise he's just playing down at her level if he bad-mouths her.
3
Regarding letter 1 -Your sons are grown and have their own lives now and the time has past. Why should the sons be burdened any further with even more unpleasant details of the causes of your separation and the divorce between you both, when no doubt they saw and experienced trauma & unhappiness during the actual process ? I disagree entirely with the Ethicist in this regard ,that knowing more about the "truth" will be helpful to your sons ,particularly as so much time has past and both you & your ex- wife's experience of what constitutes the truth will almost certainly be at variance with each other !. It is possible that providing further horrible information about their mother could seriously impact on your children's well-being (especially the son in jail) and negatively alter their opinion of you & I don't think taking the risk is worth it.If you are happily married to a "wonderful woman" and are financially secure and your ex wife is single & struggling I suggest you let your sons draw their own conclusions and just get on with enjoying your life without further negative disruption to your sons lives or your own .There is a time to let go ! You can't control what your wife says and does ,but you can choose how you behave. This should not be about proving who was more to blame (and it is clear you both blame each other); this needs to be about the best way forward. Your wife is still mired in the past ,but you don't have to be !
13
Re: LW2
I'm not a tax lawyer, but believe if you don't pay that you must decrease the amount of your charitable deduction by the $ amount of the lunch for you and your spouse, as it is a material personal benefit you received in return for your donation.
Why is a meal with charity people necessary? Ask them to send you a letter if they have special plans afoot.
7
Sad to see this level of dysfunction on all generational levels. Perhaps (and maybe even a bit smugly), the drug addiction, the overt infidelity, the negated levels of both individual and parental responsibility displayed here essentially doomed this marriage from day one. The sum of all this is that telling or not telling the sons isn’t really going to make any practical difference in any way although one may feel better inflicting some vengeance even if that’s the low road. Better to move on and salvage one’s life if possible.
8
Full disclosure: Family lawyer here. With regard to the parties' divorce judgment's non-disparagement agreement, here in Oregon, such clauses have nothing to do with either party's "reputation." Such clauses are there solely to protect minor children. The public policy position behind this clause is that every child has a right to form their own opinion and their own relationship with each of their parents. Once a child reaches their legal majority however, any provisions in the divorce judgment referencing "minor" children are no longer legally relevant. So Mom and Dad can say whatever they want about each other. But at this juncture, I would strongly urge Dad not to disparage Mom, or even try to correct the historical marital record for his sons. (See comment No. 2).
24
Are we sure that LW1's first wife was telling the truth about her multiple affairs during their marriage? According to the letter writer, she has lied, knowing that the lie could easily be detected, concerning her older son. Is there the chance of some kind of mental imbalance here, not to mention a possible desire to hurt her former husband? (Of course, we are only seeing one side of this unhappy situation.) It would make me chary of retailing this story to my sons--and as others have mentioned, children often figure out how the land lies on their own, through their own experiences with their parents.
7
Notably, the divorced dad aired his grievances while stating the minimum about his misdeeds. He had plenty to say about his ex-wife, including his opinion that she wanted a trial separation in order to test the viability of the other relationship. (Highly unlikely that she told him that.) We don't find out until the end that we he has remarried - albeit lacking the circumstances under which they got together. Divorces are messy and it appears both are to blame. Unfortunately the wonderful advice to focus on what's best for the children will not be heeded by either party.
6
@Trisha I. This is so true, we tend to ignore our defects when we're talking badly about others. We even minimize our actions while highliting the things we find wrong with others. A one side story doesn't give a complete picture of what really happened. Regardless I think saying nothing will always be the best outcome out of this situation.
3
@Trisha I.: You might want to inform yourself about narcissism as a mental pathology, b/c to me that is what the ex-wife in letter #1 is. How do I know? Because I grew up in a household like that - and whoever gets painted as the "villain" is usually NOT the actual guilty party. Narcissists are the ultimate con artists, and this woman fits the mold to a "t".
And, BTW, it is perfectly reasonable (to a narcissist) to tell a husband that you wanted to trial separation to check out the other relationship, so you could go back to the marriage if necessary - this is just the kind of undercutting, demeaning & vicious thing narcissists do! The ex-wife is a 'user' of people, and she will be that way for the rest of her life.
5
My three sons were pre- and early teens when their dad and I divorced. Over the last 17 years, especially the last five or so, they so clearly see for themselves why we're no longer married. I've shared info with them from time to time, filled in gaps in their understanding and clarified things, but their greatest understanding has been with their own eyes. For the first decade or so, their dad complained about me to them, which always got back to me, so I tried not to do that about him. I'm sure I wasn't perfect, but overall think I did a good job.
27
LW#1.
Years ago a woman our family knew left her husband for another man. This was before divorce was commonplace like it is now and the family involved was prominent in our community.
They had one child, a son, who was a teenager when this happened.
The husband never criticized his ex-wife and, in fact, told his son to always treat her with respect and to forgive her.
The husband died fairly young but his son did what his father instructed. It was very inspiring.
22
Re question No. 1: My ex of more than two decades made to our children and continues to make to others disparaging remarks about me. I have remained silent. My children figured out on their own what the truths were and for those who still believed my ex, well, why would I want these people in my life? I don't believe in playing he said/she said. I believe in letting one's behavior speak; it's louder than any words.
40
@Deborah Schmidt
You are entirely correct. If either parent is acting outrageously the children will notice. If you try to destroy a child's relationship with their mother OR father they usually dislike that as what can they do with the information? It is their mother or father. They will just have to do the same interactions with their parents, only now with these terrible thoughts in their heads, like poison. The high road is the ONLY road in a divorce and you should ask your children to respect both parents, irrespective of their behavior. That is for the children. They would rather NOT know but probably already do.
2
This can be a problem at any level of donation. I held a garage sale to raise money for an organization, only to find that they spent just about the amount I had given them in sending out postcards announcing another garage sale they were having. Last time I'll do that.
10
@Sue Parry
You did a good thing. Maybe cut them some slack....there's a steep learning curve for nonprofits.
5
To letter writer 1 about the wife and whether to tell his children about her: I know exactly the type of person your ex-wife is; my mother was one of them. I find the best way to deal with the issues that they barrage you with is to deal with them one at a time. For example, when you find out that she said you didn't want to see your son, you need to say to your son in a loving way, "That's not true. Why do you think she would say this? I want to see you and help you I'm any way I can." In this way, you are setting an example of the person you are. Your ex-wife is out of your life now, where she should remain.
28
As someone who runs a small nonprofit—a 501 (c) 3—I find it irresponsible to use our donations for over-the-top fundraising purposes, but it is done all the time—legally. Assuming the letter writer would still contribute to that charity at the same level without a $100 lunch (no matter who pays for it), he might suggest that they skip the lunch. And, even if the organization’s staff member is sufficiently astute to read in between the lines, the letter writer should know that his annual large donations are probably being used to cover meal expenses for several other donors as opposed to the purposes he intended. I suggest that every donor know more about the charities they support (www.Guidestar.org is an excellent resource); a lot of people would be shocked to know how their money is wasted.
41
@Karen Thank you. I find a nice letter thanking me works well for me and the IRS. One ED calls me, every year, and we have a short conversation. He is busy, but I really appreciate hearing from him. If there is a sit down with food, coffee is a lot cheaper. I don't need trinkets, bags, and a host of other things, especially wining and dining. In these times, we need every cent to go to the mission.
The past recession really hurt a lot of charities who had grown fat and complacent. The next one will hurt even more, and mark my words, it is coming.
Non-profits have to stand on a fine line between paying their staff enough to get good ones and at the same time not turn off donors. I have found a few small ones who do fabulous work and I support them well.
36
Hear, hear! No more cheap, plastic swag branded with logos. I no longer accept branded insulated thermoses, drink cookies, etc. The totes? I put those to use as reusable shopping bags. But enough plastic swag!!
4
@Karen
Excellent advice.
In my view, the children of letter writer 1 should know the ex-wife's reason for the trial separation (pursue another relationship, but if that fails come back) and how that led to divorce, but not about any of the other confessions. This way they can judge the judgement of their mother without getting into intimate details about affairs that are really nobody's business. With this one piece of information they will not take the disparaging comments of the mother serious, but see the for what they are: the sad expressions of a struggling human being, whose choices have continuously backfired.
7
@CitizenTM
You, like many other commenters, are basing your response on your personal assessment of what is "fair" to the adult parties here - as if their children's affection or good esteem is something one or the other of them is entitled to, as if it were one more bit of marital property to divide up between them.
Ugh. The children are people in their own right, and when you become a parent you commit to taking THEIR needs into account above your own. With every move you make, it's what's best for them. It's that simple.
All of the wheeling and dealing and calculating what the kids will believe if this or that person says this or that to them is disgusting.
Divorced parents need to START from what is in the kids' best interests at the moment and in the future. Not start from "What will they think of me if I tell them this or that" or figure out how to one-up the former spouse or parry her maneuvers. The parents' dispute is ALREADY not in the kids' best interests (whether they're grown now or not).
Realizing the pain their kids have endured because of their foolishness should be the focus of both parents - not how to carve up the booty of the children's affection between them.
7
@DW If your reputation has been harmed, would it be unethical to repair it by explaining your version to people whose opinions matter to you?
2
@Roger , this man shows zero interest in explaining how his wife’s disparagement was false, if it was. He says nothing about that. No word about his reputation. No, he wants encouragement to tell the children her sexual sins instead, to wreck her reputation. That will do nothing except to show he’s willing to do that to the sons’ mother and to them. Not pretty at all. Not likely to be rewarded with their high regard.
1
I have been divorced since 1982 from my boys father, his choice. He bad mouthed me when they were 3 and 5. He bad mouths me now when they are in their 40's. I say nothing. Lord knows I could respond in kind but to what purpose? To make their lives more miserable? They see clearly what is going on and by silently taking the high road, I have their admiration.
83
Almost all the comments about LW1 seem to imply the "children" are children, as opposed to young adults, as LW1 says they are. VERY different answers when you consider that.
14
@RLiss
It's a bit different, but I don't think it's VERY different. Adult children will draw their own conclusions, yes, but it seems pretty clear to me that many divorced parents - and commenters here - take a stance of "Well NOW I can finally have my say" and feel permission to let it all hang out once the kids are grown.
That's still a horrible and painful imposition on your children, adult or otherwise.
Many parents who are estranged from their adult children fail to catch on that often the estrangement isn't just from bad stuff they did when the kids were little - it's also from bad stuff they're STILL doing.
My parents did a lot of bad things to me. Still, I could, and did, forgive most of it - it was the way they STILL acted even when I was an adult that made it hard to maintain a relationship with them.
Divorced parents should keep that in mind. You're not somehow entitled to your adult children's friendship and companionship. They don't become your best buddies who you can complain and gossip to about your terrible ex. You STILL need to not behave like a jerk around them.
7
@RLiss , telling them their mother was a harlot is not the way to make himself look better. Not as a husband then or a father now. When it gets back to her, and it will, just as her disparagement was reported to him, the children will get to hear of his coldness, silent treatments, lack of sexual interest in her, etc. That’s just how the “gloves come off.” I’ve seen it before. The upshot? Kids who dread talking with either party, who have their own problems. Including parents roping them in to their ugly accusations. Think about them for a change, and not about “winning” against the woman who was your wife and will always be their mother.
4
re: letter writer !
Having been a child of 12 when the same thing happened in my parents' marriage, I offer the following advice:
Report, as flatly as you can, what your now ex-wife told you about her affairs etc. to both your children. If they have questions that you cannot answer refer them to their mother. Be honest, fair, and as unemotional as you can. You may even find that your older son has knowledge of her affairs. Do not be disparaging and let each child react. It's a process; time and understanding are vital.
31
Letter writer 1 had a marriage bad enough to decide to divorce even without knowledge of his wife's affairs. The children were witness to the unhappy marriage. Why, now, would he want to share his post-marriage knowledge of her infidelity with their children?
Letter writer said his ex revealed her affairs to "be a better person." It sounds like she wanted to hurt him as much as possible, and has succeeded. No need for him to now hurt their children.
36
The children need to be and deserve to be told. Once they are provided with the information, it is their choice what they chose to do with it.
How does it that reflect badly on the parent who honestly supplies the family information ? How much worse will it be later when the son or daughter loses the trust in that same parent, stating " You knew this all along and you chose not to tell me ? How could you ? "
17
@JaneK How will the knowledge of their mother's infidelity benefit those children? And how is it really their business?
4
correction: When one or both parents has some left over animosity towards the other party, the children can become defensive and even secretive about their relationship with them. Maybe the children see one parent without letting the other know.
In my own case, it was common sense to avoid any discussion on my father when in the presence of my mother and just let her draw her own conclusions because of her "with me or against me" attitude.
The ex-wife may not have actually been lying about the sons' interest in seeing his father, the son may have simply been trying to avoid getting his mother's anger that he would even want a relationship with his father.
The ex-husband needs to maintain his own relationship with his children without any interference from the ex-wife.
14
@Margo Very astute points.
After I was divorced, my cardinal rule was to never say anything bad about my ex-husband, my son's father, to my son. It was for his sake and, happily, this was the best choice. While my son may not fully have understood all details about his parents as a child, at adulthood, it really became clear who we are, our strengths and weaknesses.
34
@Julie N.
I agree with this. Noah Baumbach's movie "The Squid and the Whale" does a great job of showing a young man's eventual realization that his divorced father, whom he idolized at the expense of his mother, had feet of clay.
10
There seem to be a lot of comments here about 'taking the high road' with regards to the first situation. As far as I am concerned taking the high road basically means telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If the truth makes the ex-wife look bad, that's because the truth is she was bad. She was a bad wife, and evidently a bad mother. She failed to be honest with herself, her husband and her children, out of selfishness.
Now some are suggesting that the writer should fail to be honest with his kids out of some nobler motive. It's still a failure to be honest, and the now-grown children NEED to know the truth about their family. And that's obviously going to come from only one source. And it's not fair to face them to play detective about it by sorting through hints and clues, such that the truth will only really dawn on them when one or both parents are dead.
The sons need to know the truth now, before their dishonest mother manipulates them (or at least the one who's not in jail) into helping with her financial situation, and so that maybe she can be forgiven while she's still alive. Trust me, having to work through issues with a dead parent is rather difficult.
28
@SB
I disagree. What goes on in a marriage is really not anyone else’s business. What good will it do to disclose everything in this situation? I can tell you that my kids would have stopped me short if I had tried to unload dirt about their father on them. Work on being the best parent you can be and gain the trust and loyalty of your children in a positive way. And in this case, model a good marital relationship with the new spouse.
17
@SB You seem to be assuming that she is telling the truth. If she has been doing everything she can to hurt her ex, this is a very naive assumption. She could very well just be trying to bait him into another confrontation.
1
@SB
But you're re only hearing, in this column, from "one source" --- that being the husband. We have only his words and we have no insight into why his wife might have sought intimacy from others in what seems to be a desperate way.
For all we know, he could have been monstrous to her --- and sexually too. We are only hearing his own assessment of the marriage itself, and of his behavior during the divorce.
It seems the wife, as harshly as he portrays her here, might have had reasons for her aversion to this man besides what he implies is a reckless promisciuty and disrespect. People don't generally act that way from sheer joy in depravity,
Doubtless the children have seen both parents more clearly than he thinks. Children, in adulthood, often come to amazingly accurate conclusios about their parents from long observation and experience. The LW mentions that he is now in good shape financially and "happily married" while the supposedly terrible person who is the wife is being suitably punished. This made me say "hmmmmm."
I would like to know the wife's real reasons for wanting to be away from him so badly that she broke her marriage vows and denied him any physical intimacy. Not just filtered through the husband's experience of her.
3
LW1:
It is very difficult divorcing a narcissist, especially one who plays the victim. The ethicist cannot call a spade a spade, but having had this exact same experience, I CAN.
Sadly, the bad news is that telling your children the truth, may backfire--your ex-wife is Alienating your children. The good news is your children have probably been lied to and let down by her on multiple, if not myriad occasions, themselves. They know EXACTLY WHO SHE IS.
Telling your children "the truth" will be twisted back on you. Narcs are excellent at doing this. You've heard variants of this a million times, instead of your wife taking responsibility for her actions:
The Narcissist's Prayer
That didn't happen,
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, it's not a big deal.
And if it is, it's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did,
YOU DESERVED IT!
Your BEST bet to tell your sons... who are 25+ and have brains with mature executive function:
"You know my behavior. You know I can be trusted. I say what I mean and do what I say. I'm not going to say anything about your mother. You already have a lifetime of experience with your mother. You know who and what she is."
The BIBLE of Parental Alienation is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak.
You might also want to check out Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger
52
@Dejah The prayer certainly sums up what is going on with our current president. Thank you for it.
I once had to deal with discussions about disciplining physicians. The defense was usually along the lines of "I didn't do it, but I will never do it again."
17
@Dejah This is the one good reason I have read in the comments for LW1 to not tell his sons (in a calm, thoughtful way) about his ex-wife's behavior during the marriage. Your script is excellent if LW1 thinks he's dealing with a narcissist.
@Dejah
Re the Narcissist's Prayer...
Reminds me of the Red Hat in the White House.
1
LW 1 seems to think that punishing his wife is justified, Well, punishing the sons is not, and burdening them with both their mothers’ sexual sins (what does he expect them to do with that?) and his own malicious intent is guaranteed pain for them. He should them go on with their lives, and handle his problems with his ex himself.
38
@jb I disagree that he is trying to punish his wife. It sounds more like LW1 is defending himself against his wife’s bad-mouthing him.
I do agree, however, that there is no point in telling the sons. They will see from his behavior what kind of person he is (sounds like they already know anyway)
1
@Dj , if he were defending himself from her charges against him, he would address those. But he doesn’t even mention just what the “disparagement” was. Instead, he has means to make her look bad, and wants to use it to cast her down in her sons’ eyes. That does nothing to make himself look better, either, if that were his goal.
1
For the donor in #2, first thank you for sharing your wealth with others. Second, it is clear that the new development staff was untrained and inexperienced. No competent development officers would do what they did - which is leaving you, the donor, uncomfortable. I would suggest that the biggest contribution to that nonprofit is for you to contact the staff that visited and his/her manager and explained how the visit made you feel. That development staff needs more training or needs to be replaced by more experienced hands. Otherwise, he/she will continue to step on many donor's feelings to the detriment of the nonprofit.
79
@t bo I couldn't agree more with your assessment and suggestion for redress. As a now retired fundraising executive I felt my heart skip a beat when I read about the lunch and the unfortunate behavior of the gift officer. In all charitable enterprises a certain amount of the funds collected are necessarily used for administration, which includes cultivation of future donors and future gifts from current donors. It's important to demonstrate that you embrace the principle of thrift in these engagements, since you are using other people's money. But you always must at least offer to pay, even if you know you will be rebuffed. To expect otherwise is a serious breach of etiquette.
11
@SwissBob I am a longterm supporter of several non-profits. For the first time in my life, I was invited to meet with a senior rep. The clearly worded invitation was as follows:
I will be in xxxx in two weeks and would like to invite you to be my guest for breakfast or lunch on February 18 or 19, or evening dinner on February 18, 19, or 20, as your schedule permits. This is not for a gift solicitation, but simply the opportunity for xxx to say thank you in person for your annual support ..., and to tell you about some of our big conservation “wins” in Florida this year.
I have no intention of offering to pick up the check. But, I expect my already positive view of this organization will grow and eventually "pay off" for them in the long run because of this meeting to hear from them directly.
5
I'm very unhappy with any suggestion that it is inappropriate to tell the truth to children when one parent has told lies, or behaved badly, and is corrupting the minds of the children in question. My husband put up with 40 years of dishonesty on the part of his former wife, and she continues her lies to this day -- to those of their five children who will listen. She has repeatedly accused him -- and me also -- of having engaged in adultery and in financial machinations at her expense. Three of the children are smart enough to have figured out that their mother's narrative is wholly or partially inaccurate. Two of them seem lost to their father forever because of their mother's dishonesty - his generosity and kindness to them have been exemplary but they've been trained up to treat him like dirt. I wish he had spoken up early and often to contradict what his two estranged children apparently believe to be gospel truth. This has not only hurt him deeply, but warped their understanding of their own family circumstances.
43
You shouldn't have to tell your children too much in order to convey an honest sense of your relationship with your now ex wife. My father's approach was essentially, "I want you to respect your mother but don't believe everything you hear." That was the gist of his knowledge drop concerning divorce.
The children would compare notes on these infrequent offhand remarks against the observation of our mother's actual behavior. By the time we were all adults, we had pieced together a pretty accurate picture of what had really happened.
You don't necessarily need to have "the talk" unless you believe your children are truly in the dark. Chances are they are not. Kids are observant. They pickup on these things.
If you're really concerned, you might approach divorce by broaching the subject as a question rather than a statement. Instead of "Your mother did this..." You might ask, "Why do you think your mother and I got divorced?"
The answer to that question and others might give you a better sense of where information gaps actually exist. How much do you actually need to tell your children? Sometimes good enough is good enough. You don't need to correct a record that is generally accurate.
42
@Andy, your father's approach seems very sensible. In this case, the LW's sons are adults - and probably have figured out what their mother is all about, even without knowing about her adulteries.
But asking the question "Why do you think your mother and I got divorced?" and then correcting any misinformation the ex-wife has been feeding them, seems appropriate - if done with minimal detail and in a calm, non-rancorous manner.
23
@Andy Maybe something more non-directive - We've never really talked about the divorce, and I'm glad to answer any questions you might have, now or later. Since the sons are adults, why not leave control over what they want to learn up to them?
15
lw#2 I reside in a different donation stratum than you do, but I never accept anything that detracts from my mission which is to see that as much money as possible goes to the actual cause. While not a question of ethics, you might consider telling your worthy cause to convey information to you in a cheaper manner.
Answer#3 "(Ahem) major celebrities." Well played, but there is no way that the celebrity in chief reads an ethics column, nor would he understand the reference.
25
I am at my wit's end. I had a decades long marriage to an angry, isolated man. He was withdrawn when we were young, but i though we would grow together. He was never interested in my day or thoughts, never asked, and never discussed with me his day. I received one word responses to everything. He treated me with neglect, indifference, and eventually contempt. My sole purpose was to run the house and raise our sons without his input. I was an employee, not a wife. Our sex life was focused only on him and his needs, and became intolerable for me. I admit I responded disgracefully. We divorced, and I hoped I could finally open his eyes when I confessed. I was wrong. My son's therapist recommended that I explain my unhappiness to my son. My ex then threatened to tell them I was unfaithful. Frankly, I am tired of this. My question is whether I can tell my sons what their father is really like and what he did.
8
@vandalfan
Your therapist is incorrect.
When a wife is emotionally, mentally, and psychologically abused and treated with disrespect and contempt by the husband in the home, the children learn to treat her with distain and contempt. The chances that your sons will have compassion for you is unlikely. Children raised this way see their mother as "weak," she cannot protect herself and she cannot protect THEM and therefore, they cleave to the distant father figure, wanting his impossible to obtain approval and love. They will take crumbs from him and treasure them like diamonds. Meanwhile, you can offer them the moon on a pearl rope and they will toss it aside like nothing.
This is the nature of emotional abuse. It's a whole lot worse than being hit.
45
It’s not her therapist making the recommendation. It’s her SON’s therapist. Big difference.
1
@Dejah I disagree. I was mistreated by my ex, possibly not to the degree the commentor was, but the essence was the same (he was emotionally abusive, although I did not understand that at the time). My children are grown and married now and they treat me with great respect, and my grandchildren do also.
1
My brother and his ex-wife had an ugly divorce, that started when he learned that their house was scheduled for tax sale because she hadn't paid the mortgage and had been showing up at foreclosure hearings for a over a year lying about why he wasn't there. In a nutshell, she stole all of the family money and left him, in addition to the house scheduled for tax sale, with cars uninsured and about to be repossessed and utility bills unpaid.
Their kids were 12, 9 and 7 and didn't really understand what was happening. Over the 10+ years since, their mother remarried and, as we learned late last year, did exactly the same thing to the new husband (expect that they didn't have any kids). But she left him penniless, with ruined credit.
My brother never told the kids what had happened, until (as young adults) they saw what she did to their stepfather. In a family counseling session, with the kids' therapist there, he told them what happened when she left him in the same situation.
The kids were horrified -- in part, because they always bought their mother's bad-mouthing and blamed their father for their parents' divorce. Seeing her do it to someone else made what happened clear. And it gave them knowledge they need to protect themselves from her.
The children of LW #1 are adults. They deserve the truth, told as calmly as possible. They need to know that their mother cannot be trusted. And they need to know it before she hurts them even more.
34
#1 - I would give the "boys" some credit for seeing how their mother really is. If they complain to you, hear them out. If they ask questions about her past, tell the truth. Take the high road. And why are you asking her about visiting your own son. Contact him first and ask him yourself.
#2 - You're confusing "ethics" with "etiquette." Maybe the staffer bungled it, but the next time they invite you to lunch, suggest the local diner or just drinks. Let them know you're trying to spend less on eating out. Put the ball back in their court.
18
@Jeanne "And why are you asking her about visiting your own son. Contact him first and ask him yourself." That jumped out at me too. There is a model wherein the mother is both the gatekeeper and the communicator between father and children. It's a bad model and we need to squash it when we find it.
18
Tell your kids that marriages are private, between two adults and that it is neither fair nor reasonable to drag children into their parents' personal problems or personal relationship.
The marriage is neither their business NOR their problem and that is how it should be kept. They should be told there are two sides to every story and that you are not providing yours for the reasons stated above.
If you feel the need to say something "negative" about your wife, which you are indicating you do recounting the whole opera in your letter, you might say to your children that you do not consider it morally or ethically appropriate as a parent to drag them into your private life. Further, and to the point, you hope when they are parents, or uncles or in other ways involved with young people they will remember what you are saying and act accordingly.
Be the adult in the room. So many parents forget to be the adult in the room and have no idea what their duties to their children are; sacred duties imposed on them by the universe the day they are born.
Or help your wife sow distrust and prejudice into your children so they feel they have no solid ground with their own parents who are both using them as pawns.
18
@ck I wonder if there isn't a healthier third path. Family secrets are toxic. So is TMI. The adult children have already been pulled into this by the ex-wife, so the husband has a right to restore some balance to her stories. I agree with other readers that having a conversation about their thoughts on what she has said is a non confrontational, kind way to open the discussion. (Her outrageous claims remind me of a family member of my own who is having tremendous mental health challenges.) Sharing one's sadness for this woman's emotional issues, without accusing or going into detail, seems like a reasonable high ground to me.
11
Marriages are between two adults, but it's naive to say that relationship is private only between the two adults in it. Actions taken within a marriage have profound impacts on others, especially the children of that marriage. Children are part of the story- it's called a family. And, family secrets are destructive.
10
@former therapist
"The adult children have already been pulled into this by the ex-wife, so the husband has a right to restore some balance to her stories."
I am saddened to hear a therapist take as a starting point what the husband has a "right" to do in a conflict with his ex-wife, vis-a-vis the children.
Please consider taking a stance of considering the children's interests as the starting point, not the supposed "rights" of their parents to be seen in a certain light by their children, or have their version of the truth believed by their children.
1
The same happened to me after a short 6 year marriage. Then the constant disparagement occurred over the next 30 years until her death; of course, my boys hate me. I tried to rebuild or start relationships with the boys but although on the surface it seemed they were willing to forgive and forget, they still harbor all the feelings resulting from years of constant brainwashing.
It never seems to work.
8
@tom but in this case, one son was already out of the house, and the other, one might assume was in his teens. And it sounds like they have a reasonable relationship with their father, and can see what kind of person he is.
Your sons are old enough to understand subtlety. They can understand that you two were not a good marital match, that she was very unhappy, and everyone sees things through their own viewpoint. The intimate details of the marriage (your sex lives) are irrelevant for their purposes. Ask yourself why you think you should tell them those things about their mother, which continues the unhealthy vindictiveness. Say those things to your therapist instead.
12
I recall the painful period when my mother contemplated divorcing my dad because of his infidelity. At the time, the only reason she did not go through with divorce proceedings was because of financial concerns - she did the math and realized that could not have afforded to live on her own. They remained married and some how worked out their differences.
Never once did my mother speak ill or badly about my dad. I could see in her eyes and hear in her voice the deep hurt and betrayal she felt when all she said was that he had cheated on her. And she stated that just one time.
She always felt that what occurred between her and her husband was between them rather than a discussion or debate to share with their kids, albeit the youngest was already in college.
I always respected and admired my mother for not verbally bashing my dad publicly to anyone. I respected that privacy and reasoning that their marriage was a private affair (no pun intended).
I think it's one thing to share information with a child without having to lace the words with arsenic. There are no winners in those situations, only losers, and it's often times the child rather than the parent that looses the most.
23
If the kids report another disparagement, I would take the high road and simply say: "Thank you for telling me."
If it's true... "Yes that happened, and I was wrong, but there are also circumstances that I feel justified my actions at the time. Sometimes I did not act as I now wish I had."
If it's untrue... "No that did not happen. I will spare you the details of what actually took place."
And in either case, then follow up with this:
"Thank you from telling me, and don't let anything I say inhibit you from doing so, or us continuing to have meaningful conversations. If I fail to comment sometimes, do not interpret that as effort to close off dialogue. I do it for two reasons: 1- I think it's nicer for you if we don't use you a sounding board for complaints about our relationship, and 2- our divorce agreement specifically discouraged / prohibited (check your legal text) making disparaging remarks about each other, and as I said, that's a good thing."
At some point, one or both of your kids may learn the truth, either through friends, relatives, or deduction. Hopefully, you have a few more decades of relationship with them. So imagine the nice dividend when they realize the gift you gave them employing some parental discretion.
12
The reason your son is an addict is your wife. Studies show that poor attachment and loose parenting is a a major push to the lack of executive function that creates an addict.
I wouldn't tell them the details. I would show in actions your love for them, provide a stable base with guidance and LIMITS, and simply say you are sorry Mom says those awful things, but they are not true, and someday you will explain.
19
@Mary Rivkatot addiction is a medical problem. It can be exacerbated by stress and all kinds of other things, but people are not addicts BECAUSE of what is done to them or in their presence. Addiction can certainly be related to the behavior of another person, but one remains responsible for one's own responses. One exception could be when someone is given an excess of addicting medication and is not properly instructed in its use. Otherwise, addiction is the result of a complex interaction between personal and interpersonal relationships.
39
@Mary Rivkatot
The wife might have an undiagnosed mental illness. It could be that this son has inherited this illness, and has been self-medicating. We are not his doctors, so this is only guessing. It is definitely sad.
Big difference between disparaging the mother and telling the facts of what transpired and let adult children decide for themselves.
19
No, No, No, No, No! My divorced parents told my brother and me all the dirt on each other. It didn't make us understand or sympathise with either one of them. It made us angry and bitter. I still get furious all these decades later thinking about the hurtful things they said in the name of "truth." They didn't care about our feelings, only about making themselves look good. Now we are managing their old age and decline, and sometimes we look at each other and wonder why we are doing this for people who treated us so badly? Don't say a word!
91
@Liz
Exactly.
8
@Liz , YES! I knew a case like this, and the kids were battered and even traumatized by the dueling mud-flinging, including lurid sexual accusations and claims of drug use. About each of two people they loved, authored and laid upon them by each of two people they loved. It certainly did NOT help them to be appointed the jury in their parents’ charges against each other. Who should they believe? Then what? Ugly scenes? Loss of a parent? Or both? Why? No, they didn’t “want to know.” The parental angers, reasons, sins were not their faults or their responsibilities to fix. They came to dread even thinking about either of them. The kids have their own lives. Let them be.
16
@Liz
Sorry you were caught in the middle of all that -- sounds awful. Also sounds like this was happening to you mid-divorce, i.e. with all the other upheaval, and that you were younger than LW1's sons.
LW1 is writing from a different place: divorce is done, sons are adults, and al least from the tone of the letter seems like he's coming from emotionally maturity and consideration. As other commenters have mentioned, if LW1 can remain factual, gentle, and share just once (not rehashing blame), it could be meaningful information for his sons to understand their childhood.
6
Consider coffee instead of lunch, so neither party bears the cost of an expensive lunch.
46
Why can't everyone at the charity lunch pay their own way? It makes no sense that the charity or a single donor needs to pick up the tab.
21
@Pat The donor was invited by staff members of the charity organization. Therefore he and his wife are guests, unless the invitation indicated the guests pay for their own meals. Apparently this was not done, and there was already precedent established where the charity staff member picked up the tab.
11
@Freedom Exactly. When I am invited to by a charity to events where I am expected to pay my own way, this is made very clear in the invitation, as it should be.
1
No, do not disparage your children’s mother, even if she disparages you. Embroiling them in your disputes is always a bad idea. And, more importantly, you want them to have a good relationship with their mom. It’s in their best interest. Try to take the high road. Your sons will figure out you care about them, and that’s all that matters.
35
@Andy Dwyer I 've seen cases where totally unfit parents poison their kids against the other fit parent. Usually $$ is involved. When the children have grown and been presented with proof of the lies, they never again bond with the parent that is wronged. They either disengage with both parents, or make excuses for the unfit parent, and fail again to reach out to the wronged parent.
8
The first time I had to pay for luncheon with the charity guy is the last time I would have lunch with him!
23
The LW should just say, "I am not permitted to disparage your mother."
If the kids don't understand that what LW is really saying is "I have a lot to say that is negative about your mother but I can't say it," then they are too young and immature to be told anything anyway.
16
IMO, even if you could ethically broach the reasons your marriage ended, you should not do so unless directly asked about events, and even then you don't have to be brutally open about it. Your sons will have formed their own opinions about things. At most, I would tell them what they heard from their mother is not true, that there were other issues involved, and say you prefer not to speak of it. I would be ready to bet that your sons already know which of you is the more trustworthy. Frankly, I do not see any upside to airing out old laundry.
28
I’m surprised to learn there exists a “non disparagement” clause in any divorce or custody agreement. In my experience, every divorced couple with kids engages in this ugly game, at least to some degree. Just the other day I spoke with an emotionally healthy, highly educated professional, who is a recently divorced mom. I thought she of all people would be above using her child to get back at her ex husband. But no. The kid is in the middle of a nasty fight. Pickle in the middle. And miserable.
I disagree with The Ethicist on whether the father should “out” his (apparently deeply troubled) ex wife to their children. Absolutely not! What would he gain by doing so? The pleasure of revenge. What would they gain from knowing? Nothing. What would they lose? Any respect they ever held for their mother.
All the kids need to know is that their parents’ marriage ended by mutual consent. If the ex wife has painted the husband as something he was not, it is the father’s place to tell his children that this characterization is not true. But if he trashes his ex wife he will look like the bad guy. Because he will be the bad guy.
36
@Passion for Peaches It is a standard, boilerplate attachment to all Idaho custody decrees, along with standards like "the receiving parent provides transportation" and "all clothing will be returned clean".
5
In Atlanta there is a court-ordered class required for any parents being divorced. Attendance is taken. Not everyone retains or uses the lesson material.
3
I think the Rodney King plea of "Can we all get along?" should be axiom when it comes to one's relationship with an ex-spouse. I suspect that in the ex-wife case that she is lashing out, always has and unfortunately always will, despite any type of anti-disparagement clause. Initially she may have lashed out because her paramour did not leave his wife and perhaps she felt miserable, guilty, and worthless. Now you've successfully remarried and financially you are well, all the more reasons for her to attack you and find fault with you. All of your ex-wife's behavior perhaps can best be described as that of a sociopath. Protecting your adult children is paramount. I had my adult child tell me how his mother (my ex-wife) had mocked his mental health treatment in a way that was simply cruel and alarming. I quickly told my son that I believed him and that she had treated me the same in moments that called for tenderness and empathy. Ultimately while it is best to not disparage your ex-spouse, at times you may have to simply illuminate to your children the things they need to know to protect themselves from that spouse's poor qualities. As for your son's drug addiction I wish you much success in his recovery but know that there are many drug addicts who come from homes where the parents are still happily married.
15
More and more I think the ethical thing is to just let it go. I would apply that philosophy to all three scenarios. Focus on your relationships, enjoy and cherish what you have. To get bent out of shape over the cost of a lunch, that is more of an etiquette question. Telling tales or not about an ex, talk to a trusted counselor or therapist, Outing an almost former client, unless they're a predator, make sure your facts are suit-proof. Writing to the Ethicist and being published, I don't think so.
15
I recommend that all divorcing parents tell their children this: "I will always love and be grateful to your mother/father for giving me you; we will always love you and have agreed to respect each other, not speak badly of each other, and continue to support each other in our love of you. If we ever fail to do so, call us out on it. Divorced or not, we are forever linked together as your parents. " And, then repeat it whenever the badmouthing begins - including emailing it to the ex (even attorneys). Hurt people hurt - and they will continue to do so unless/until a boundary based on values is enforced calmly. I endured my parents trash talking and in the end, I came to the conclusion that they were getting something out of it that had nothing to do with me. They created a lot of chaos I didn't need in my life and it cost them time with me and my respect.
63
@Patricia
There's a big difference between repeated trash-talking and blame-cycling, vs. calmly setting the record straight, once. LW1 sounds like he's in the second camp.
2
Factually stating someone's actions is not disparagement.
20
LW1
Disparagement. I’d liked to know what his ex said, although the LW doesn’t state it. Are the disparaging remarks true? False? Exaggerated?
So, it’s difficult to address, difficult to advise.
But.
Be yourself, be authentic. Deny what’s false, clarify if necessary.
Avoid using the ex’s history.
If necessary express that his ex has issues that lead her to say hurtful things.
Then change the subject.
8
Charity lunch is simple. Any time an organization, business or other institution, which is the receiver of money invites the client - be it a donor or a customer - the deep pocketed revenue taker invites to pay. Uncouth otherwise.
9
@Suburban Cowboy The operative word is 'invite'. The invitor pays not the invitee.
12
I believe the father should be honest with his adult children but just state the facts of the situation. They're not children anymore and can come to their own conclusions about their mother's behavior, good or bad.
I find it odd that commenters think the ADULT kids need to be 'protected' from the truth as though they would suffer if their perception of their mother changed. If she did something morally wrong -- cheating on the dad, disparaging him wrongly -- their perceptions should change. I don't think most adults are so fragile they can't see their parents as people with good and bad parts and must preserve the image that they are all good or perfect. It makes me wonder if some commenters have achieved full independence from their parents and are able to see them beyond just being their parents.
19
the reason is that he can't prove it. how will he prove her affairs? it is just contributing more acrimony. if it is true that she is such a terrible manipulator then you can bet she has covered herself. telling on her will have the opposite effect.
4
@ms , no. The kids have their own lives. They aren’t and shouldn’t be required to hear their parents’ sins or be forced into being judged between them. The unhealthy thing here is the parents who are willing to pull them into the parents’ mess and useless malice. It’s not the kids’ responsibility to punish parents’ behaviors or to ferret out the “truths” each swears to. Not at all about any wrong attitudes of the children—it’s absurd when we know nothing of them. That fact alone is a sign of the self-centered, self-seeking maneuvers of the parents. Both of them, apparently. Let your children alone, they have their own problems. (Btw, personal comments about commenters who disagree with you aren’t really helpful to your case.)
3
@jb Well stated.
1
The lunch problem is interesting. I donate happily to an organization. In fact I am on the board. But I happily host and pay for lunch with others from the organization, both board members and employees.
I suppose I should write that off as well as my annual donation ?
Seems like a no-brainer -- time to talk to my accountant about that.
5
As a practical matter, the ghostwriter may enjoy outing the dishonest behavior of his former client - but he may also scare off future potential clients who will not want to confide in someone who will subsequently betray their confidences, even if those confidences demonstrate bad behavior. Something to think about.
25
The ghostwriter will do it anonymously like the unethical ghost he already is. To participate in the ghostwriting of an autobiography is flat out fraud.
5
@Suburban Cowboy I would take issue that ghostwriting an autobiography is fraud. Writing is an art form. Writing well enough to justify selling a book about someone's life elevates that art to a whole new level that the vast majority of us aren't capable of. Saying that someone that participates in ghostwriting is unethical is like saying the caterer, not the hostess, threw the dinner party.
20
@Suburban Cowboy
Ghostwriting is most certainly NOT "fraud."
US copyright law provides the selling of "Works Made for Hire." There's no such thing as Moral Rights in the US. That's the EU.
Most public relations and advertising copy as well as technical documentation is work made for hire. Very few CEOs who "write" book actually write the books themselves, although a few credit their ghosts. Heck, there are a NUMBER of famous authors who no longer write their own books. William Shatner freely admits to be "a team." James Patterson finally started crediting his ghost after about a decade where it was a well known "secret" in the industry that he hadn't written a word in years. No one noticed. Nor did they stop buying the tripe he called fiction. His ghost has gone on to a good career as well under his own name.
It is absolute nonsense to paste a word like "fraud" on something @Suburban Cowboy knows absolutely nothing about: publishing.
11
I'm sorry but I have to go back to the lunch problem. Is there any way you could just grab a sandwich at the bodega and sit outside and talk about charitable things? Why not Macdonalds for a change? Sometimes I get the $1 coffee and the very cheap breakfast burrito which is basically a tortilla with some sausage meat and cheese melted but is quite tasty.
26
@GB Try the vegan option, Beyond Meat. Very good!
6
When a development professional invites someone to a meal, it would be complete insult to be such a cheapskate. You are often talking about a substantial gift, and this cannot be done in a noisy cafe or McDonald’s. I once interviewed for our magazine an elderly Italian gentleman. A board member accompanied me on this visit. Even though the board member thought I didn’t need to bring a gift, I showed up with a big box of beautiful Italian pastries. The donor was thrilled, did a great interview and eventually made a five million dollar gift through his will. When you show some generosity to an individual who is already supporting your organization, it can have beautiful results.
1
@GB I selected a very modest local cafe for such a lunch meeting. Barely more expensive than two Big Mac meals.
1
My wife and I separated after 20 years and finalized our divorce 3 years later. At the time of separation one child was in college, two in high-school and one just starting grade school.
Though we did not have a non-disparaging agreement, I made a very conscious (and often difficult to stick with) decision to never say anything negative to our children about their mother, nor to ever reveal any of the gritty details of what happened.
Sadly, my former spouse did the opposite.
"Kids" are smart, they figure things out and it didn't take them too long to realize what their mother was telling them wasn't true.
Now, almost 20 years after the initial separation I have great relationships with all four and, amazingly, they want to spend time with me. And, again sadly, their relationships with their mother range from fractured but trying to non-existent.
For the good of the children, divorced couples should keep their dirty laundry to themselves ... even if it is only a onesided affair.
108
@Prodigal Son , yes!
1
Children are excellent perceivers, not interpreters. As a child of divorce, and now a co-parent of adult children of divorce, I strongly disagree with those assuming the children know facts. Propaganda is propaganda. The high road = telling the truth. Knowing one or both of your parents are deeply flawed and accepting this is the far greater gift. Been there. Adults can handle the truth.
39
@Anon Awesome comment.
1
I can find only one rational explanation for what happened in letter No. 2: that the fund raiser is dishonest.
He extended an invitation, obviously implying that the organization he represented would pay for the lunch. Why would he then all but force the donor to pay the bill?
I think he did that so that he could turn in an expense report as though he had paid for the lunch, and collect the money from the organization he represents.
Letter writer No. 2 should take this up with the organization's higher-ups so that, if my guess is correct, it doesn't happen to other donors.
24
@Eleanor I don't know any major organization that doesn't require a receipt for reimbursement. Perhaps an etiquette misstep but to accuse of dishonesty is a bit over the top.
17
@WF, I agree - this was an etiquette misstep - or it could be that the development staff person was told to expect the donor to pay. I don't see any dishonesty here.
I certainly would NOT rush to accuse anyone - and likely cause them to lose their job - and put a black mark on their career and reputation - with no evidence whatsoever.
Plus as you point out, the development person would need to submit a receipt - after most likely, paying by credit card.
In fact, some nonprofits issue organization credit cards to development staff specifically for the expenses of cultivating high-level donors - and these expenses are part of the development budget.
12
@Eleanor, as someone who has worked in development, I can tell you that that's no "rational explanation" at all. The staff person would need to submit a receipt for reimbursement - and most likely would pay by credit card.
Also, in my experience, although it's usually the development person or head of the organization who extends the invitation, often donors will insist on picking up the check.
Huge rush to accuse someone, get them fired, and maybe even ruin their career - without even a shred of evidence.
9
After years of dehabilitating passive aggression and the divorce that I finally initiated, I decided not to discuss our failed marriage with our teenage kids. They lived it with me, after all, saw much in situ, suffered as I did, and likely more. But I never criticized their father. I felt they had enough to deal with without my vitriol As they matured, as they married, as they became parents, they began complaining about him to me. Sweet.
67
@MA No offense, but sounds like you're not quite done with that passive-aggressive stance...
2
I'm guessing that the commenters saying "they probably already know the situation" or "there is no need to tell them" are not adults with divorced parents. When a marriage fails, so much goes unsaid, and children (as children, adolescents, or adults) are so often left guessing. The guessing game gets tiring and is deeply confusing - not just about what happened, but about your role in the family, what to think about your parents, whose side to take, how to navigate emotional minefields, how to see your own self after the dissolution of that first reflection of the self, the family. As we age, we may understand better what happened, without being told, but of course there is no way to actually know. We neither need nor want to know everything - but the truth helps to understand and make a context for the deep hurt feelings and sometimes guilt that children can feel in a divorce. When you have children, you are taking some responsibility for their psychological well being. Calm, respectful, adult discussions of the truth, to the extent that it is appropriate for the age level and without the explicit details, are essential.
58
@reader I don't know about that. I'm an adult with parents who divorced 43 years ago. If I could, I would love to know much, much less about the things that drove them apart. I don't care who did what to whom. Their eagerness to disparage each other was the thing that damaged me most.
The LW is essentially saying "my ex-wife did bad things, and now she's doing another bad thing. Can I do a bad thing as well, to sort of even the field?" And the answer is no. His ex is wrong to ask the kids to play referee. A second request, this one from the LW, will not make their lives better.
The best thing the LW can do, for himself and his children, is to get less enmeshed with his ex -- not more. Move on. Answer their questions honestly, if they have questions, but for the love of all that is good, spare them the gory details. Live so that they will doubt bad things said about you. And stop letting your ex talk to you about why your marriage ended! It seems to me that you would also have been happier living in ignorance. Don't give her any further chances to "enlighten" you. It's over. Ever forward.
24
@reader I suppose that can work if the child trusts the parent but parents who divorce are sometimes more concerned with themselves than their children. I speak from my own experience .
4
@reader
I'm sorry but in the picture you paint children are pawns/players, choosing sides, judging each parent's merit, reasons for marriage breakdown, guessing it when not stated, etc. Sometimes they are treated as such, but its not right.
Why should a child feel guilty because two adults couldn't stay together, why should a child judge whose fault it is the marriage didn't work? It doesn't change the fact that they are still family, mother and father of the child, even if they decided not to be together.
We are all flawed humans, we all make mistakes but making more doesn't correct the situation. Lets try to forgive another's mistake and move past, be a better role model as a parent. Taking the high road is a lot harder, or else more would be doing it.
4
I believe the first advice-seeker should tell his grown children that not everything their mother is telling them about him is true, and he wishes she didn't feel the need to disparage him. But he should leave it at that. Stooping to her level will only make him feel worse in the long run, because he will have burdened their children with information he would be better off working through with a counselor.
He should also establish some firmer boundaries with his ex. Letting her unburden herself to him was a mistake, and she is not a reliable source, so putting some emotional distance between them would be prudent.
He's in a tough situation, and I hope he and his kids will get through this as unscathed as possible.
61
Without overthinking it, I have evolved in my view of sharing info with my adolescent children after a divorce. For years, I never said a bad word about their dad, who I divorced after 20 years of marriage. He disparaged me relentlessly but I never knew the details until my son, now a twenty something year old, finally started to vent. I was horrified at what he was being fed and started sharing. The ethics of it all are beside the point when the goal is to poison the children against an ex spouse.
51
As a child of bitterly divorced father, be careful.
My father made a "point" of not criticizing my mother yet he very effectively communicated hatred anger conspiracy theory disgust among many other feelings he had toward my mother mostly by blaming her parents. Now they did have an outsize role in our family but that was his fault caused by his own proclivities which he refused to ever tamp down on. he regarded his children as slaves or enemies often both.
Be honest with him but don't be carelessly explicit. In the long run you will come out ahead.
8
There are multiple problems with the advice given to letter writer one. While it can be true that knowing the truth can reduce confusion perhaps right now (when the advice seeker is hot with anger) is the wrong time to drop the bomb. Maybe the right time is when the boys actually ask their father what happened. This goes double for the son who is in jail and battling addiction. Both the advice seeker and the ethicist also seem strangely removed from the most immediate question: "what is it best for the boys to know about their mother's infidelities?"--of course, this assumes that they actually want to know such things in the first place. As a previous commentator noted perhaps the Dad should just focus on rebutting his ex-wife's claims. Problem number two is that the no disparagement clause should not be treated as strictly a legal agreement between an ex-husband and an ex-wife. In these cases the actual legal principle is "acting in the best interest of the child."Just becasue one person ignores this principle does not automatically grant the other the ethical right to respond in kind. Maybe the clause was included in the first place to protect the children from being dragged into their parent's past toxic conflict. Finally, we have no idea what kind of husband and father this man was. Perhaps he did have a terrible relationship with the son that developed a addiction. Perhaps he had a great relationship. I would assume nothing and refer this man to a therapist.
29
@Kurt "we have no idea what kind of husband and father this man was" No, we don't, but the letter as written is the only information on which the ethical advice can be given.
Children get shattered by divorce. What possible help is it to them to further rip down the other parent -- no matter their faults. Turn the other cheek is the best advice here - not ethics.
28
@Julie C. Not all children get shattered by divorce, some children flourish when they are removed from a household full of chaos and anger. My children thank me for leaving their father and providing them refuge from his rages.
Interestingly their relationship with him improved when they did not have to live with him.
6
LW1: A simple rule I was taught is NEVER criticize the other parent in front of the kids. This can be very hard to do and it sounds like your situation is particularly difficult. But I would be very cautious about criticizing your ex-wife in front of your kids. She is one of the two people the boys love most in the world, regardless of her faults. They also share her DNA. Your criticisms may be taken very personally even if that is not what you mean to do.
Now that your kids are adults, you can answer their questions honestly, but no need to add a bunch of criticism too. Your ex sounds like an unhappy, dishonest person and I am sure the kids are aware of this on some level. They may be concerned that they will be unhappy and dishonest adults too. You can model a different way of being--one that doesn't spend a lot of time tearing down others.
I disagree with the advice to give "a more accurate account" of anything that has happened. If the kids have something they want to ask you, let them, and answer honestly. You don't need to cover up for her misdeeds. But don't start giving your side of the story unasked, or start piling on about unpleasant details they don't need to know. Reassure them that you will always be there for them, and back it up. Her negative words about you won't mean much if your actions consistently contradict them.
69
I’ve been through that myself. At first I said very little and that was a huge mistake. The best thing you can do is to enlist the help of other adults the kids respect as well as the middle health professional who can testify in court if it’s necessary.
7
PS, what my ex did seriously damaged my relationship with my children.. However now they are grown and have children of their own, they have realized what they probably did, and I’m very grateful to see that we have a wonderful relationship.
5
The article talks about tax deductibility. This either needs to be fully explained or omitted. Recent changes in the tax deductibility regulations create issues that may be unforseen
4
Very interesting to read a philosopher's perspective on a family and individual psychological conundrum. The concern from the psychological side of the gurney, is that human psychological development does not read legal contracts. What we do know, is that the development of our self and esteem is scaffolded on representations of both our parents. As we always say, the toughest task about separation is to love your children more than you hate your ex. This means there is nothing to be gained by depicting mother in all her foibles unless it is to protect them. In cases of a schizophrenic parent, for example, it is important to explain the behaviour so the child understand it is not about them. But in cases of alienation or other sorts of separations gone bad, best to inquire about how it feels to hear such toxicity, empathize with such an experience and explain that the details of the parents marital life are just what it sounds like, marital. Disclosing will likely affect their internal representation as a parent, as a mother, of as a spouse of such a person, exposing them to countless ways of reproducing history.
14
Kids (even grown ones) don't need to know what their parents are doing in the bedroom with each other or other people. It sounds unlikely that cheating was the only problem in the marriage.
You should encourage your sons to tell their mother to stop if they don't want hear the disparaging conversation. Otherwise, concentrate on your current marriage and keeping yourself and your sons as well as possible. No need to have any contact with the ex-wife unless there's an event you both need to attend.
32
Regarding the first letter, this does not have to be a binary decision (i.e., telling your children all or nothing). You can subtly imply that your ex-wife had her own not-so-upstanding reasons for separating, and that her behavior has been disappointing. Unless your sons are completely hoodwinked (and it doesn't sound like they are), they can read between the lines or ask for more details.
6
I was in a similar situation many years ago. When kids are young, just smother them with love, be attentive and just be there for them on their terms. Try to forget what your ex says about you no matter how infuriating. Over time, they’ll see that your actions speak louder than her words. If you start defending yourself, they won’t know who’s telling the truth and won’t appreciate being put being put in the middle because they love you both. Find and a friend and vent. You’ll gain a better perspective that way. Kids are smarter than you think. They’ll come to their own conclusions at a time appropriate for them.
21
First letter: I would say a father needs no permission to see an adult son, especially from his former wife. The fact that this kid is in prison only makes the case more pressing. In prison you would be happy to see anyone from 'the outside' a family member even more so, this woman seems a bit toxic to the betterment of all involved.
20
@Jt My thinking was along theses lines. Why do the two parents of adult children have any contact with each other, given the acrimony? The father should have completely separate relationships with them. However, that made me wonder if the father relies on the mother for information about their son, and hence, learned from the mother he was in jail? Confusing.
Letter Writer 1 - No you don't get to tell the children about your wife, their mother. When they tell you what she says, you simply say it's not accurate but these are matters between her and you, and that you both love the children very much.
I lived this. Children are a lot smarter than you think. They eventually figure it out. Trust that your children will. And give them the gift of loving their mother as a child and not ask them to enter your marriage.
30
Re LW#2: Of course you should not expect to pay for the lunch, including for the organization's staff member, when the organization has issued the invitation. And I'll bet the higher-ups at the organization would be very annoyed if they were aware of their staff member's boorish behavior. However, in a semi-social situation like this, it is awkward to come out and say directly that you don't expect to pay. Instead, smile cordially and say "Thank you so much for having me as your guest today and keeping me up-to-date on your organization. I will keep all we discussed in mind when I make my next donation." Then keep your hands in your lap and your wallet closed.
Re LW#3: Unless the minor celeb's false claims involve you in some way, keep your mouth shut. Otherwise you are just being petty. What's it to you if he or she is embellishing their accomplishments? Sorry, Ethicist, but there is no duty "to try to correct some part of the record" simply because you happen to know that someone with some name recognition, however minor, is engaging in unwarranted self-aggrandizing.
27
That is the worst advice I’ve ever heard. Telling your children—and I’m sorry, it doesn’t matter if they’re grown, they will always be your children in an emotional sense — accomplishes nothing, absolutely nothing, other than to wound your children. The circumstances of your divorce, complete with whatever sordid details there were, have never been, nor will ever be, any of their business. Telling them what your wife told you about herself will at best be deeply upsetting to them, and at worst permanently destroy their relationship to their mother. They need to love their mother, and always will. Just as they need to continue to love you. Don’t steal that from them. Adulthood means coming to accept the imperfections of one’s parents, and to love them nevertheless. But this is a bridge too far. By passing on to them the information she gave you in good faith will rob them—ROB them—of the most precious and essential possession in any of our lives, which is to love and be loved by our parents.
Jessica Bram, author of Happily Ever After Divorce: Notes of a Joyful Journey.
37
My ex-wife severely alienated my two pre-teen children to the point of filing court papers falsely accusing me of sexual abuse towards them, and then leaving those papers open on the kitchen table for them to see. Even in the early stages of our separation, she would berate THEM for following my parental decisions. My daughter once opened the door of a moving car, rather than stop at her cousin's for 5 minutes, because "Mommy said we can only go to YOUR house".
I could have fought this. Yet I knew that even with all the court orders in the world, if I was to see my children I would have to bring the police with me. Years and years of putting them through a custody battle, during their teens years when they would be beginning to find THEIR lives?
I knew that my ex's anger was at me, and that functionally she was a very mentoring, involved mother. The greatest act of love I have ever done was to NOT fight for my kids, and I have not seen either of them for almost 20 years.
I may have made the right choice, I may have made the wrong choice. But I chose consciously, out of love, and in the interest of their well being.
Over the years, I tried to phone them, but they wouldn't take my calls, and yes, I eventually gave up. But each of them has grown into self sufficient, independent adults.. high achievers, actually.
I speak with my daughter now. I don't bad mouth her mother, but I have explained that I acted out of love for her.
I think she believes me.
17
@ImagineMoments
I wept reading your comment.
My abusive ex-husband Alienated my two younger daughters from me. Yesterday was Middlest's 20th birthday. I sent her a gift, but there was no response. I, too, chose not to fight in court, because I felt it would tear them apart. I didn't have the $$,$$$, and I didn't think it would produce any positive results. I have not seen or spoken to them, but a few times, for almost 3 years.
Facing DECADES without them... I can't face this. I didn't do anything wrong, to have my children stolen from me.
Knowing what I do about Parental Alienation, I am absolutely sure they have been told that I abandoned them. That they "chose" the "forever family" they have now. Yet they know nothing about what happened behind their backs. The court battles. The financial, verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse. How their father (and custodian) interfered with court ordered visitation--completely, so that I was never permitted to see them, *not once.* That I was threatened again and again: with the police when I tried to see them in public. With severing of my rights. With trespassing. With arrest.
It drives me mad that to NOT "badmouth" her father, I have to cover for a rapist, abuser, liar and deadbeat. I don't cover for him ANYWHERE.
He's a rapist.
He's an abuser.
He's a liar.
He's a deadbeat.
This protects abusers. Not children.
3
@ImagineMoments That is one of the saddest stories I have read. That you withdrew yourself from your children's lives for 20 years, and you consider this an act of love? Perhaps their mother told them you abandoned them, and your actions supported this story. This raw wound has yet to heal for them and for you.
1
@ImagineMoments
A "a very mentoring, involved mother" doesn't accuse her ex of sexual abuse. I don't doubt that you went through an extremely trying time. There's far more to this than anyone here can know, you but you let your ex get away with the worst kind of behavior, leaving your with only their mother to rely on. I don't call this an act of love. It's giving up.
Do not involve your children in the problems of your marriage. That's an awful thing to do to them. They'll eventually find everything out by themselves, especially since their now grown. Don't bad mouth their mother; it'll make you look bad. Take the high road on this one.
22
Re disparagement: Not an attorney, but seems to me that simply telling the sons about the ex-wife’s affairs that she has admitted to is in no way disparagement, it is simply relating the facts if the urge to offer a value judgment can be resisted. I.e., “Here’s what your mom told me. You decide what you think of it.” But since she has clearly violated the non-disparagement agreement, I’d like to think it could go both ways.
Re lunch with the fundraiser: “What happened, then, was surely a result of a pardonable misunderstanding.”
Disagree: lack of training or simply inappropriate behavior seems more likely. As another commenter pointed out, the fundraiser(s) did the inviting.
5
Ethicist clearly explained that “disparagement” can include a simple retelling of facts.
Is this the status of ethics the post-truth society? Immanuel Kant would be ashamed of us all.
3
@Brian McNally , when you say us, do you mean yourself? You don’t know”us,” actually. And various views are offered here.
1
It has taken me many years to realize that when an ex-spouse disparages the other parent to the children, it’s only because of their own insecurities.
My ex never overtly bad-mouthed me, but if any issue came up (money, visitation, extended family, health), she used the opportunity to try to prove that she was the better parent — and friend — to the children.
Luckily, over the years the children — who are now adults — recognized what her agenda was. She ultimately moved to Texas, and the adult children decided to live with me, or in one case near me.
I don’t disparage my ex; she dug her own hole. But those years of alienation can never be done over. There is nothing to be gained by bad-mouthing an upstanding ex-spouse.
11
LW1: If you reply in kind, you'll more likely confirm at least some of what she has said and therefore lend credibility to anything else she has said. The children already know things weren't good; you did get divorced after all. Perhaps some things remain unclear for them. If that's the case, offer to respond to any questions, but stick to the facts and only speak about your own feelings/emotions/thoughts.
If they're talking to you about her, they're probably taking to her about you, and my guess is she doesn't think she's disparaging you but will go for the jugular if she thinks you're disparaging her.
If you feel the need to vent, talk to a counselor, therapist, or someone similar. Your children do not need to hear your angered response.
15
@Lady Ja It does not sound like LW1 wants to "reply in kind" -- the ex is apparently dishing out lies and drama.
I agree LW1 should stick to facts as he knows them (i.e. honesty) and his own feelings (vulnerable, not victimhood).
@Lady Ja Except it does not sound like LW1 wants to "reply in kind" -- the ex is apparently dishing out lies and drama.
LW1 should stick to facts as he knows them (i.e. honesty) and his own feelings (vulnerable, not victimhood).
Bad advice on the non-disparagement clause. Self help is not treated warmly by courts. The remedy in this case is to file a motion seeking an injunction. Violation would be contempt of court. Alternatively the H can ask the court for leave to straighten out the record with his adult children, either immediately, or in the event the W violates the new order.
3
No. I cannot agree about telling the “boys” about their mother’s infidelity. What positive purpose would it serve. How is that helpful?
“I’m sorry, Son, that you are feeling in the middle where your mother and I are concerned. I’m sure that our acrimonious marriage and divorce was wounding to you. I don’t want to add fuel to the fire. I don’t need to know what your mother says about me. I think she’s an unhappy person and might be resentful that I have moved on and found happiness. Therefore, consider the source. I want to focus on my relationship with you, going forward. I’d prefer that we not speak about your mother. It’s negative and painful. Does that seem like something you could agree to do?”
30
@Kathryn "Therefore, consider the source," is a bit snarky. I could see the wife blowing her top over that, if she were to hear...
Regarding #1: I wonder if the minimum is the best... tell the sons that there is a clause in the divorce that says neither will disparage the other. Then let them square that with what she has told them. If it is not a secret document, give them each a copy.
9
My personal advice to ALL the Letter Writers : “ Let It Go “.
Seriously.
16
LW 3: Contact the ghostwriter chronicling the celebrity’s life and congratulate the author on the assignment. Mention that you previously worked in that role and left after a few months. Offer to be of assistance. The clever ghostwriter will get in touch, undoubtedly salivating. Don’t put anything in writing that could be forwarded to the celebrity’s grasp.
3
I can see not volunteering negative information or attitude, but would nondisparagement preclude any brief, honest, factual answer to a direct question? Or would you just have to announce that if you don't have anything nice to say you are forbidden to say anything at all?
Was Mom ever unfaithful?
Sorry, court order doesn't let me tell you! (Nudge nudge wink wink)
2
LW2: How about selecting a less expensive restaurant or suggesting one to the organization's visiting representative?
6
The boys know their mother left. They know she lied about the son in jail not wanting to see you. They trust you enough to tell you when she says terrible things about you.
I would use every opportunity to set the record straight with them. Tell them what's true and what isn't when they tell you something she's said about you.
And tell them the truth when they ask about something specific, like why you split.
But I would hesitate to volunteer information beyond what they ask about or correcting something she has said to them that's untrue.
What good would it do to say, "Your mother was unfaithful throughout our marriage, including long-term affairs and one-night stands"?
I can see where it could be very tempting to do just that--but revenge might be lurking just behind "wanting to be honest." And frankly, your wife was "honest" with you, and what did it serve?
Their mother is a mess, with a significant honesty problem. And it sounds like both she and they know this already.
10
@Talbot She sounds like someone with a personality disorder; the dad should get some professional advice on how to deal with someone like her. Why was their oldest son driven to deal with his pain through substance use? And she lies to him while he is in jail?
This isn't strictly an ethical issue - this is a psychological issue and the dad and his sons need some help to deal with this and heal together.
1
@Jane Norton: I agree with you & IMO the ex-wife in letter #1 likely a narcissist who is (and as been) gas-lighting her children AND her ex-husband.
It has been noted, by those who study narcissistic personality disorder, that "when a narcissist can no longer control you, they will instead try to control how others see you" - which is what the ex-wife has been doing and is continuing to do.
The ex-husband and the adult sons would all benefit from talking to a counselor who is QUALIFIED in dealing with narcissistic personality disorder.
Narcissists are incredibly toxic, and they really do NOT care how much damage they do to others - even those who are *supposedly* their "nearest and dearest" - b/c their primary interest is only in propping up their own frail egos. Narcissists are very damaged people; they leave a lot of wreckage in their wake - and they will NEVER take responsibility for any of the damage they do.
2
Oh for God's sake, print some letters with genuine ethical dilemmas - think Sophies' Choice.
Letter writer 1 - your sons are grown men and have known both you and your ex their entire lives. Let them draw their own conclusions.
Letter writer 2 - the next time, decline the invitation.
18
LW1: I'm not a therapist, but you say your elder son has had on-going issues with drugs and repeated incarceration. Would he not feel more hopeless about himself were he to learn what a piece of work his own mother is?
19
@Niobe Probably not - if the information comes in the right way, at the right time. She's probably a source of the trauma that drove him to using in the first place.
4
The first one? Why does the man count on his ex to tell him what his adult son wants. He’s in jail. If he doesn’t want to see his dad, he can just say no. Keeping in that kind of contact once the kids are grown is suspicious. Just stop and worry about yourself.
12
The journalist should have known to have a an agreement about such things when he/she started the project.
My ex-wife also was in affair and wanted a "trial separation". If she doesn't succeed she'll come back and try, try again. She had a nice bipolar man down the street, just out of jail for CDS theft by deception (pedaling drugs from a pharmacy) and four years with the "office of the incarcerator", i.e jail. She ditched him and clung to the kids, unlike her mom that similarly flipped out, left the kids and lived in squalor. She needed to milk me for all I'm worth. 22 years of child support and her constantly undermining me. Her second marrage also failed. You have to try to counter the lies, but she has them most of the time. Oh, she is not paying the electricity bills so the power is cut. Its your father's fault. They graduate college the child support ends. Oh, she assumed I would always pay and had the 25/27 year old kids call me a deadbeat dad for a marrage that ended in 93! I spent a lot of time with the kids, when not with them I was working paid overtime. It's really stacked up against the non custodial parent - which sometimes is a female. Trying to counter poision will most likely boomerang.
6
It sounds like LW1's sons are all grown up and (probably) mentally and emotionally ready to have better insight into the implosion of their parents' marriage. We are talking about adults here, not children; they can likely handle hard truths about their family. Find a way to have this discussion as neutrally as possible - keep the disparaging language to yourself, and just be honest and vulnerable to them about your feelings of pain and deceit. Let them sort out their own opinions on this complicated and painful chapter in all your lives without the critical emotions that can color your opinions of your ex-wife.
4
@sca Agree. LW1 modeling honesty and vulnerability (without getting into blame and victimhood) could be useful and healing for his sons.
It is really simple if she is breaking the agreement and lying tell the children the truth, and then shut up. Don't leave them with only lies. IF your description of her is accurate and truthful she is harming them in a truly despicable way and letting her false story stand would be what harms them.
5
People can behave ways in marriage that they don’t in other ways. Someone can be a terrible wife (or husband), cheat and all that, but be a good mother/ friend/ neighbor.
Her cheating isn’t really need to know information for the kids, it’s not like she’s going to cheat on them. But kids don’t want to referee between parents and resent the parent(s) who make them choose.
Tell your kids the gracious version of divorce. The tactful tap dance about growing apart, wanting different things, both making mistakes. Focus on the good things about your ex and the divorce.
Your children will see the most important truth, that you love them. That you refuse to put them in the middle. That you just want to move on amicably. That you are stable and successful.
My FIL puts his ex down. My MIL is gracious about my FIL. Guess which one the kids believe? Guess which one they resent?
16
@Jane Doe
LW1 can be both gracious and honest.
How can one react to a one-sided story of a broken mariage and the sons' problems? Oh, just try to shut the harridan up.
3
Tit for tat is a puerile response to an ex-spouse bad mouthing you. If you do the same, you cease being a point of stability and reason to your children. They want the security of one parent being above the fray.
18
LW3: If you client was the current POTUS, PLEASE, for the love of God, reveal what you know to the general public.
21
If you lie to your children, you will regret it
A lie by omission is still a lie
Why don't you make a copy of this article and give it to her?
2
LW1, sounds like your ex has some mental issues. I'd give your boys the straight facts, b/c they have a right to know, but don't add any drama. She's got enough.
I expect she'll make trouble with the boys, and they need to know the whole story before they decide to cancel her, which they'll probably have to do, for their own sanity.
Watch your back, and your wife's too.
6
I have a soon to be ex-wife who tries to tell lies and exaggerations to my two grown up children. What she fails to realize is that they see right through her.
Your kids will figure it out. They always no more than we think.
7
Who would be helped by disparaging the ex-wife? You will not help your relationship with your sons by telling them "what she is really like." You will not improve your sons' view of you if you sit them down and go through the nitty-gritty blow-by-blow recount of who did what to whom when your marriage broke up.
When your sons complain about what your ex says and does, focus on helping them cope with her. This is not a time to settle old, tired scores. It is a time to make sure your sons have all the tools they need navigate their relationship with their mother.
17
I learned from my extremely awful divorce that the spouse that cheated, lied and stole money throughout and during will still play dirty.
I had to accept the loss of one child. The evil ex still pays for, (purchased) her support, still at age 25. She hated her narcissistic alcoholic abusive dad through high school but got sucked in with bribes of summers in Europe and many exotic vacations. He pays for her phone and much else. I worry about her future.
I was swayed by his early manipulate charms too, once upon a time, I understand why. The hardest part was the psychopathic psychological manipulation. He didn't just disparage me untruthfully, he did his best to humiliate me.
He is also an expert in cybercrime and money laundering. Knew all the tricks. I don't take it personally.
It's all complicated. No one else wants to get sucked into the drama. Except for lawyers who are happy to charge you.
My son sees and remembers everything and rejects his dad's bribes. It means a lot to me. Once they are adults you have to let them choose who they choose to be. My one great joy is knowing my son will be an amazing great husband. He is 21 and has had a girlfriend for a year now. I think will last and always be filled with joy and trust while they both live.
I think that the 1944 movie 'Gaslight' (Ingrid Bergman) should be required watching/discussing in high school.
My experience and that movie helped 4 years ago when Donald descended his escalator. I am immune now.
6
The first letter writer is certainly making himself out to be the victim.
7
My older half siblings (same dad) were never told that my dad up and left them one day when they were about a year old. He never paid child suport and made almost no effort to see them except a few early childhood visits out of the blue. Their mom never said a bad word about him. My mother never told us what my father did. Years later, it would have been better for all of us if we had known. They thought their mom was in love with an emotionally abusive man and were angry at her for it and I was emotionally abandoned by my father after my mother died and spent years thinking it was my fault. Truth may be uncomfortable but we can make a more educated assessment when we have a fuller picture. The mom in the first article has deep issues accepting responsibility and having remorse for her actions. This is not limited to her marriage and she in all likelihood expressing behaviors that are emotionally damaging to the sons due to those characteristics. Letting them know may free them from her abuse.
57
Vignette 1:
I was married a very short time at a young age to a woman who exhibited similar behaviour right down to a trial separation where we agreed not to date other people.
We had an infant while she was carrying on her affairs unbeknownst to me. When I finally discovered what she was doing I divorced her immediately and agreed I pay child support for our then 2 yr old, as well as having visitation rights and yes agreeing to non disparagement clause.
I was remarried a few years later and celebrated a 40th anniversary in December.
I supported my child through college and had regular visitation over the years.
All the while my ex wife disparaged me and my wife to him while engaging in the same behaviour with other husbands and partners over the years.
When my child turned 18 I told him the truth and he thanked me.
My story rang true with him because he had witnessed his mother’s behaviour with many other men she had brought into his life over the years.
115
My parents were a lot like the couple in L1 except that they never divorced, they stayed together until they died. Since they were both alcoholics it's hard to sort out, nor am I interested in doing that (I'm now74 and they are long gone).
But I would like very much (now that it's impossible) to know the whole story. Of course I actually know a lot of it, not because they told me, but because kids are pretty smart. I know that my mother had at least one affair, and probably more. I know that my father accused my mother of allowing another man to father his second child, my brother, and I know there are some good reasons to believe him. (My brother and I have discussed this and agreed to ignore it.) What other skeletons are buried? No way to know. (DNA tests would answer the question about my brother, but neither of us is anxious to stir that pot now about things that happened so long ago.) My brother and I are each successfully long-married with happy kids and grandkids, so we have little to complain about.
But I would like to know more, if only to sympathize with them. They were both desperately unhappy in the marriage, and I can't help feeling that they both deserved a lot better.
27
The father in example one must be feeling duped by his ex, scared to lose his sons, and sad that he has not so far been able to help his son overcome addiction. Trying to share his version of the failed marital relationship with his kids, as long as he does so in a considerate way that is fact focused, is okay.
I agree with the idea of showing them his letter to the Times. It conveys a genuine concern that the sons should be able to see.
My parents were and are horrible to one another, and as an only child they never stopped disparaging one another, fighting and yelling openly, or asking me to choose and putting me in the middle. They are still married after almost fifty years, and are more like dysfunctional siblings than anything.
To the father: communicate with the sons. All three of you must try to be loving, to look for healing, and to stay open while acknowledging each of you are adults that must own their own actions. That’s what I’ve always wanted, but sadly, never gotten.
29
@ASnell Yours is such a kind and thoughtful post. Whatever difficulties you endured as a result of your parents' bad behavior, it's clear that you grew into a mature and empathetic adult.
9
My parents disparaged each other a lot. But none of that led to any truth about their relationship, which I still do not understand.
Explain the truth as you see it, without disparaging her. A lawyer might be able to help you find the right language for that without breaking your agreement.
But you should play fair, and show compassion, for the sake of your children. Do not ever make them choose a side.
37
If the adult boys are not asking, no need to say anything. They probably know more than you give them credit for knowing, particularly since one’s character is very difficult to conceal long term.
I think it’s harmful to disclose disparaging information as though your sons are to be the judges of fault in your divorce.
How much better it would be to emphasize the decent qualities of your ex, and to acknowledge that you were both once very much in love, and regret that the relationship changed and failed over time. That’s life, and a healthier lesson for the boys would be your acceptance, forgiveness, and gratitude.
37
It would be nice if “taking the high road” and saying nothing actually did anything other than fulfil some weird pride in yourself. People often think they’re too good to be human and show their faults to their kids.
I’ve seen three families torn apart with one spouse in each of those families winding up permanently alienated because the other spouses decided anger and retribution is more important than their children. The kids in all three cases are grown, none of them rekindling relationships or realizing hidden virtues or faults. Some of them have died, never knowing the love they were missing.
If your ex is trashing you to your kids, and you let it go, you may as well give up - you’re just as bad as they are. I’m not saying trash the other person, but defend yourself and be clear about what happened. Allowing your children to be in an abusive situation is wrong, and parental alienation is abuse. If you truly love your kids, honesty is the best policy.
9
Regarding LW3, it certainly seems that making an embarrassing disclosure, however minor, about a potential client would bring a very swift end to a ghostwriting career.
If the disclosure is made in a sense of journalistic truth-telling, then what is the expectation? If it's disclosed to a fellow journalist do they not have the same obligation of disclosing its source? And if it is disclosed into the four winds how is it different from the howling rumor and innuendo with which we're already surrounded.
If someone is harmed by these false claims let them step forward. Your discretion may not serve the purpose of right and truth, but it's hard to see how likely self harm helps.
10
In example #1
Maybe I am unique but as a kid I KNEW when one of my friends parents was lying to their kid(s) when they separated/divorced. The parents who agreed to NOT bad mouth each other ALL have the best relationships with their kids.
When one parent blames the other parent and never takes ANY responsibility for whatever role they had that led to the separation/divorce that the parent may feel fear of being honest with their child(ren) because they think they will be viewed as bad or not worthy of the kids love.
Yes, the ex-wives actions were bad, but they also show choices, that she may be afraid to own up to. Like looking for love in all the wrong place, thinking the grass is greener elsewhere. Immature thinking.
But being honest with one child(ren) can also help them learn from ones mistakes. But the honesty MUST come from the mother NOT the father in this situation. Would be nice if both parents and the sons could sit down for a calm, honest discussion.
3
@Beth Grant-DeRoos
Info must come from the mother? She doesn't tell the truth.
My now EX-husband disparaged and disparages me. The divorce finally came after he hadn't filed or paid any taxes for about 3 years. I had filed my own so I wouldn't be liable. I also had told him I couldn't continue this and left. Our kids. were both married adults. My daughter got shingles. I let them know I regretted having to do this and why I did it. But I haven't disparaged him. I'm their parent and honor their position as our children. He was really nasty during the divorce, but what did he expect.
3
LW1: Be loving to your sons. Have no contact with your ex-wife. I'd just tell your sons that they should make their own decisions. Any information about their parents, whether about you from your ex or about your ex from you, is bound to be colored by that person's point of view. Let them know you were troubled that the marriage didn't work but that you are delighted they are your children. They are adults and will figure out that relationships are messy and people don't always have pure motives.
LW2: Perhaps the the ethicist should brush up on the latest in tax law. Very little charitable contribution tax relief any more. The letter writer doesn't state who extended the lunch invitation. Generally, the person who invites is expected to pay. An offer by the other to pay can be a kind gesture but should not be expected. (I am aware that in business there are some customers who have different expectations.)
16
LW1 could just show this letter to his children. The letter doesn't doesn't disparage the wife...it only states what she told the writer. Whether any of it is true or not, he doesn't know, and he should make that clear to the children.
Then he can tell his children that based on what the ex told him, he really doesn't want to hear anything about her ever again, regardless of the children's feelings or opinion of her.
9
The letter may not literally disparage the mother, but it is not exactly a neutral statement of what happened either. Considering we don't know if the mother told the truth about her affairs, if the father fully revealed the nature of his behavior during the marriage and after the divorce, or if, most importantly, the sons have an interest in hearing this information or have asked questions about the divorce, I think showing them the letter may be unnecessary and probably harmful.
1
@Paul Brown
That's very nice, if your main concern is your own feelings. It's like for you the kids' feelings don't even register.
1
Terrible advice to the father of sons whose ex-wife disparages him. The best advice I was given under similar circumstances was to ignore it because my sons would figure it out on their own.
There is no need whatsoever for children of any age to be given the details behind their parents' divorce. That is not "protecting your relationship" with adult children. That's tit-for-tat.
58
Why is it that the common "wisdom" is that the children will figure out the truth by themselves? I know from the experience of to friends that such is not the case. These individuals (not related) for decades remained ignorant of one parent's infidelity.
16
LW1, take the high road. Actions speak louder than words, and your sons have a realtionship with you. They see who you are on their own, with or without their mother's comments. Your grievance is with their mom, not them. Tell them you love them and want to spend time with them without hearing what their mother has to say about you. If they question your integrity or motives based on something she says, tell them, "We are right here, together. You see who I am and you were there growing up. We have a relationship independent of your mom. Make your own judgment based on what you know and your experience." Leave it at that. You never look better by disparaging others. Even if it is the truth.
34
I love your work Dr. Appiah and I'm so glad you gave the advice you did in the first letter!
The crucial statement you make at the end says it all: "the object here is not to punish your ex-wife but to safeguard your children’s relationship with you and allow them a better understanding of a troubled family history."
As I've spent many decades excavating the truth about my family's troubled past in order to heal myself I am relieved for these young men to have at least a broader perspective from which to base their own conclusions.
Peace to you all.
14
Sigh, I love this column :-)). And all the answers resonate with me completely. Cannot find better words to express them. Just great advice.
5
Two of these letters, the first and the last, are about reprisals
It's possible to put another face on it, but in the first instance, I think that it's best for the adult children of the couple to come to their own conclusions. And they don't need to know everything about their parents: no one does. And, guess what, they probably know anyway. It's amazing what children know; remember your Henry James, and "What Maisie Knew." It is unseemly to tear down a former spouse, especially to your children. Don't. It will only make the parent who does so look bad, and, if you want to preserve a relationship with your children, model--if you can--good behavior.
In the second instance, who cares? It's also a sad sight to watch other people turning into tattle-tales and policeman.
I'm a little disappointed this week in Mr. Appiah, who seems to have developed a taste for revenge.
18
LW #2 - Skip the expensive lunch. Have a chat over a cup of java at one of coffee shops that line the streets of expensive cities. Pick up the tab for the staffer’s mug. And next time you write them a check, ask that it be entirely spent on the charity’s services.
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@Tone Please, PLEASE do not restrict your charitable donations. Staff deserve to be paid - not to mention office space, supplies, etc.
2
Reading the analysis, I was amazed that the Ethicist did not consider the damage and unfairness that could be done by attributing all blame for the divorce to the wife's affairs. Everything has a context and it is unlikely that the wife would have had multiple affairs if she had a happy marriage. So was not the cause of the marriage breakdown, at its core, unhappiness? And who is to say that it was the wife who was more at fault for that unhappiness than the husband? I was in a similar spot to the husband and it is not difficult for me to appreciate the part I played in the demise of the marriage and how my wife's affairs were not necessarily the root cause. I have never told my children of her promiscuity and do not intend to. It would be simplistic, unfair and frankly a little sexist given society's tendency to paint women having affairs with scarlet letters in a more demeaning way than men engaging in similar behavior.
49
Wow. Thank you for sharing this and giving a different perspective to this conversation.
10
@David B "Everything has a context and it is unlikely that the wife would have had multiple affairs if she had a happy marriage."
Right. And the usual expectations and marriage vows say "I won't sleep around if I feel happy."
Marriage is a contract to work out the issues that arise in a relationship with one another. It is not for everyone, because not everyone has the psychological or moral maturity to participate in such a relationship - or even understand it.
A person who no longer wishes to participate in a marriage has the opportunity to move out seek divorce, not a permission slip to sleep around. The party who decides instead to stain her or his vows with promiscuous sexual behavior may have certain legal rights, but retains no moral rights stemming from marriage.
From a moral point of view her best bet is to consider her behavior and take full responsibility. That includes the responsibility for her children' censure, if they know about her behavior and judge her.
14
It is never a good idea to share the circumstances of a divorce even with adult children, unless perhaps if a crime has been committed.. One can simply say that one disagrees with the other parents’ interpretation of events. Children are always put in the middle of trying to decide which parent to believe. Nothing is ever simple, and kids know that. Defaming ( even if true) the other parent for bad acts during a marriage is damaging to the kids - who often continue to love even misbehaving parents. Take the high road and say you and your ex wife have very different views about what transpired, and you love your kids whatever their age.
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@Anne Bergman
You might be overlooking the ways in which as children we pick up on undercurrents of lies and deception, confuse it's real origins and meanings, and make distorted interpretations - which often mean over estimating our own role/non-role in it and self-worth.
Providing more information about facts and perspective from each person's authentic experience - not claiming to have The Truth -can only help older children and adults understand their own experience to their own benefit.
15
I don't agree with the advice given to LW1.
There is no dispassionate way to disparage your ex to your kids, even if they're adults. Kids often see parents as an extension of themselves, so any disparagement can be upsetting to the child's own ego/emotions.
LW1 is worried his ex wife's gossip to the kids might damage his relationship with them but the good thing is the they are telling him what the wife says which (a) suggests they probably don't believe her and (b) gives the dad a nice opening to take the high road. He could say "a lot of what your mum is saying isn't true and it's quite upsetting that she keeps saying these things to you. We might not be married anymore, but we are both your parents and love you very much. Let's just focus on that".
Then, the husband should stop engaging with the wife (why did he need to tell her he was visiting the gaol?) as it clearly just gives her the opportunity to interfere.
The kids are adults. They will work out the Mum is bitter and twisted in their own time, without the Dad having to stoop to her level.
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@LC
Modeling boundaries (i.e. to how much one tolerates lies) and generally comfort with truth is just as important as modeling compassion. LW1 can do both.
1
Speaking the truth isn't disparagement if done with a total absence of judgment, adjectives and adverbs. IF he had known that she cheated and divorced her because he could not stay married to her with that knowledge, that would be a fact a grown child could hear. Facts are facts -- if the hearer then makes judgments accordingly, that doesn't mean the speaker did anything but recite facts.
However, the father's truth is that he divorced his wife based on the facts as he knew them then, and so when he tells his sons why the divorce happened, none of her later admissions should be part of the story. Why she behaved as she did was a mystery to him then and didn't play into why he chose to divorce her. Any description of her character is going to be laden with his opinions and judgments: those are not facts and he should not tell them to his sons. Simply telling them he will always tell them his truth about his time with their mother and that he doesn't want to talk further about her because she will always be their mother will make him look far better than any reciprocal ex-spouse bashing could ever achieve.
4
Regarding LW1, the issue is that his ex is disparaging him to their sons, not that she lied to him about her infidelity during the marriage. Having been the adult child in an ugly divorce, I recommend LW1 defend himself but take the high road. Something like, "Boys, when your mother and I divorced we signed a non-disparagement agreement, and I'm not going to violate that, so all I can tell you is that are not getting the full truth about why our marriage ended from your mother. I will only talk about my own behavior, and I will always tell you the truth about that. Whatever you want to know about what I did or didn't do, I promise to tell you the truth. That's all I can do in this situation, and I hope you understand." That will make LW1 the adult in the situation and help his sons see him as the stable, reliable, honorable parent. If she continues to disparage LW1, it will work against her. The more honest, unflappable and reasonable LW1 seems, the less weight his ex's words will have with their sons and her behavior will ultimately work against her. (Sidenote: taking her to court for bad-mouthing him will make her seem like the victim. Bad idea, even if it's justified. The goal is justice in the eyes of his sons, not the court.)
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@Sean
Best advice here. The high road is the only road for someone who is honorable, and his sons can see who he is. he can speak for himself.
If they ever ask for more information, that might be a time to add a little more.
When parents get into battles accusing one another of terrible behavior, the children usually just try to avoid them. Even the better parent can come out looking dirty if they allow themselves to be manipulated into reacting.
10
@Sean
This comes across to me as worse than the truth. Essentially, it's saying: Your mom did lots of bad stuff that I promised not to tell you about, but believe me, it's bad.
This does not respect the children's right to know or understand what happened to their family. It also makes the father seem vaguely mean: a slur on someone with no facts behind it is still a slur.
2
My parents had a nasty divorce when I was a teenager and they still don't talk to each other (in their late 70s). They like to disparage each other to me every chance they get. And it was, is and will always be painful for me. So from my experience, I would recommend to lead with compassion. It will mean the world to your children (and perhaps at some point your ex will be inspired by your good example).
19
Instead of laying everything on the table, LW1 could offer to answer any questions his sons have. They may have a much clearer picture of the situation than he expects. Rewgardless, this approach lets the sons take the lead in seeking information that is meaningful or important to them.
32
The advice to LW2 is completely questionable. This could not have been a "pardonable misunderstanding" on the fundraiser's part.
The organization is asking for the donor's time and attention for the purpose of getting the donor to "continue or increase" their financial donations, and should pay for the meal. Hard Stop.
The onus is not on the donor to explain their expectations, as the expectations are part of routine common courtesy. If the fundraiser had other ideas the onus is on them to discuss it, as their behavior is defying social convention (and good sense).
Imagine for a moment a salesperson for a for-profit asked a client out and neglected to reach for the check. At the very least, horrible manners and bad business sense. At worst --and it would not take much to get there-- an unpardonable business crime.
14
As the child of divorced parents, I will never forget the trauma of my mother telling me that my dad cheated on her. I was angry at him for years for cheating and then at her for years after that for telling me. In the end, it serves no one or either parent to try to get the children on either side by telling these personal stories. The children deserve to grow up feeling loved by both parents and to develop the best relationship they can with both
49
@Joyce Kinnear I couldn't agree more. Although my parents stayed together, they told me (many years later) that my father had had an affair. I so, so wish I didn't know. It has forever changed how I see him.
4
Dear Donors and Prof Appiah:
While I generally agree with your take on the ethics of saying something to make your expectations clear and raise the prospect that the lunch was a misunderstanding, I think its important to also consider the position of the staff member in question and ask some questions about their position within the organization and the practices of the organization. In my experience, charitable organizations do try to raise money by asking staff to meet with donors. But the staff don't always have the means to pay for lunch. They don't have corporate credit cards, their salaries are far more limited (by virtue of the fact that they work for a charitable organization) and, in my institution, any reimbursement from the organization for over $100 can take well over a month once it is submitted. Given that this is a departure from previous experience, my guess is that the staff member is new and perhaps had different expectations of what the organizational practices are. But it is worthwhile to keep in mind that this organization may be expecting staff members--even new ones [who have just moved, have young families, etc]--to regularly pay for meals with donors that the staff member does not have the ready cash or cash flow to absorb. It is important to keep in mind that 501(c)(3) organizations have expectations about what their staff should do without providing them with the resources or remunerating them in the same way a company would.
8
@ALA
I've worked with larger and smaller non-profits for years in a financial capacity. Any staff member travelling on a regular basis is going to have a credit card and the ability to pay for a meal for a donor.
If staffs member don't have a corporate card, then they are usually asked if they will use their own card to cover expenses. The person who did not pay for the meal with the letter writer was not doing their job.
8
@ALA Dear Charity That Does This. Don't.
3
@ALA. If everything you say about a non-profit exploiting its employees is true, then that is a non-profit that should be exposed for its unethical practices and employee abuse.
However, slow reimbursement for an expense is in a different category. That one you just have to roll with.
2
LW1: I was a step parent for a while and from my experience, the children already know what both parents are really like. Especially when the children are generally past 12. I think disparaging the 'other' parent just makes the parent doing it look bad. We also told the children that we didn't need to know what the other parent was doing. Tell your therapist, tell your friends, why vent all that at the children?
77
@AK What they're like is different from what they have done.
5
I offered to open my home for a fundraiser for a small, excellent non-profit.
I was stunned at the amount of $$$ they wasted on the event: they bought cases of wine, excessive prepared food, and other items most of which were left over. I can't imagine that they raised more money than they spent on the event.
Another time a non-profit I have been supporting for years flew a fundraiser over a thousand miles to visit me and others in NYC. She dropped by to show me videos about the organization's programs, all of which I have known about,
I donate a small amount following a phonecall from my graduate school and received a large metal button in the mail noting my participation in this fundraising drive. The cost of buying and mailing these silly buttons to all donors surely used up my donation and more
All of these events made me far LESS likely to contribute to these organizations.
240
This is why I make once-a-year donations. I can give once at the largest amount I can manage; I can plan the amount based on my year's finances; I can get on all the charities' do-not-call lists; I can research the organizations in advance (I recommend the web site Charity Navigator).
It also gives me an absolute policy to never make small donations -- at cash registers, after getting a mailing, etc. I just say no and waste no time debating with myself.
Plus, if everyone followed this policy then fundraising costs would drop for all charities!
24
@Lynn Are you sure the wine and food wasn't donated?
11
@Lynn : Far too many "non-profits" in the USA bring to mind Mark Twain's observation -"When someone says it's not about the money, it's really about the money."
12
LW1 should focus on ensuring that his sons seem him for what he is: a father who cares for his children.
That probably mean disputing specific things the ex says.
It may also mean framing the situation for the sons at a broader level: Your mother is saying a lot of negative things about me. I'm not sure why that's happening. But I want you to know that what passed on to me me so far isn't true. And if you have any concerns about me, you can always ask me directly. I promise to be honest with you.
At this point, the LW will gain nothing by disparaging his ex or stooping to her level. I agree with the comment about taking the high road -- with a caveat: the LW must set the record straight about the ex's disparagement of him.
This keeps the focus and effort where it should be: on the LW's relationship with his sons, not his ex.
197
@MDF
"LW1 should focus on ensuring that his sons seem him for what he is:"
This is backwards. He should focus on his sons' best interests, not on their opinion of him.
1
In several states, non-disparagement clauses have been overturned on appeal. These are considered to violate 1st Amendment rights and to enforce prior restraint. Besides a court can't order someone to be a mensch.
20
Re LW 1: Sometimes it’s not what you say but how you say it. I encourage the letter writer, who is dealing with some fresh feelings of betrayal, to take time to work through them before involving his kids. It could be useful to visit his attorney to get advice about his rights and legal exposure before beginning any conversations. Therapy is also better than using ones children to work through divorce pain. Alanon is good too since addiction is in the mix.
Adult children are rarely oblivious and they probably already grasp—especially given how well the letter writer’s life has gone—what’s going on without needing all the deets. I doubt they want to get wrapped up in any current drama or would appreciate pressure to take sides. And they probably love both their parents and get their mom’s flaws and don’t want any pressure to convict her for them. They may even feel more protective and defensive of her because her life is a mess. So I think when the letter writer is ready to speak of the situation with some objectivity rather than provide a full rebuttal on every point, it might go better. In the meantime, if specific instances come up he may want to be succinct in saying he disagrees with her viewpoint and leave it if they don’t press. He doesn’t have to play her games and his sons probably know the truth and will appreciate a calmer approach.
32
If invited to lunch by a professional fundraiser, it is absolutely on them to pay for the lunch. Large fundraising nonprofits have major gift officers whose job is to cultivate donors. It's not cynical, just a way of showing the good work and keeping up a relationship. In any case, the invitee/donor should never be expected to pay. Major gift officers have a budget to deal with these lunches. It is considered part of the cost of raising money.
166
RE: LW1, I was in this same position, although the details were different. I, and my 'new' husband/her step-father, said only good things about my daughter's father, no matter how bad his behavior. As noted, my daughter really had no way of learning the facts (not our interpretation of them, but the actual facts) and ended up feeling deceived when she did learn about them. Granted, my daughter was a young child when this was going on, but it's been extremely difficult for her, and I think she now doubts my honesty which put a damper on our relationship for a couple years. She understands that I was trying to protect her, and not disparage her father, but I still was not forthcoming when I feel, in hindsight, I should have been, while also accounting for her age. She and I have come to a place where we can discuss some things that happened, but it's been a hard road back to having an open, honest, trusting relationship where she believes that I am telling her the truth.
128
My parents divorced when I was a child. My mother never spoke ill of my father and I had only a murky understanding of why he was absent. When I was a young teenager, my older sister told me he had cheated on my mother and I later found out he never paid child support. This information made so many things that had before seemed confusing make sense. Your children deserve to know the whole story that only you can provide. You are not protecting them; you are withholding information.
341
@Anon True. It's so important, however, to discern the wisdom of what knowing the truth is, will do, ultimately. I hope the father can talk to the sons in a non-biased kind of manner about the facts of what happened... and also himself take any responsibility which need to be taken. There's something to be said for maturity and grace... and how and when to apply it. Anger and bitterness never have amounted to any lasting peace.
10
@Anon I agree. Some of those commenting say "well, the children already know anyway." This can hardly be assumed. More likely, they are confused and caught by both the mother's past behavior and current disparagement of their father in a psychological Catch 22.
When the children, now adults, come to their father with tales about their mother's disparagement, I think he should sit them down for a frank but not drama-laden talk.
"Your mother was not happy during our marriage, and I do not think she is too happy now. We signed a n on-disparagement clause but she continues to disparage me. I have no desire to disparage her, but I think it will add context to your understanding to know that she engaged in promiscuous sexual behavior throughout our marriage and consistently lied about it to me. I know this because she herself told me, after the fact. I know that this cleared up a lot of painful confusion I felt throughout that marriage. It put many other things into context.
"You are adults and I am only telling you this because your mother's continuing disparagement adds to the confusion. I would be a liar if I told you that I do not disapprove of your mother's behavior. but it is entirely up to you to make what you will of this situation in light of this unpleasant truth."
Others may be for a nice relativistic post truth world. I think there is still something in the idea that 'the truth makes you free.'
31
@Anon I had a similar experience except my mom told me sometime in my late teens about my dad cheating. I don't think it affected my relationship with him, but I had this aha moment about the women I saw around him when I was younger. Personally I prefer to know the truth even if it's painful, so I guess I'm glad she told me. Well, I've never cheated on a partner myself, so maybe it had some effect on me.
25
LW1 doesn't want to tell his sons what they're mother "is really like." He wants to tell them she was unfaithful throughout the marriage & ultimately left him for another man that didn't work out. That's not something they're going to "see" unless someone tells them or they already know.
The ex-wife has breached the non-disparagement clause. LW1 can sue her for contempt of court (assuming the clause was also in the divorce & custody orders) if he seriously wants to end the charade that his adult sons are bouncing back & forth between what each parent says.
In the meantime, there's no reason for LW1 to have contact w/the ex-wife at all. He managed to see the son in jail; why ask the ex first? He should tell the sons not to convey remarks from his ex; it's irrelevant to their life as adults & his remarriage.
124
@knitfrenzy There is no need to tell the grown children other than to try and seek validation for himself. Why does he need the validation? He would be better served to dig deep and ask himself that question. Children are not stupid. Don't think they don't know. There really are no secrets. Be a strong man that knows your own self worth and realize that validation can only come from yourself.
3
@Ann Marie I disagree. It has helped me immensely as an adult to have honest conversations with my parents about the failure of their marriage. It is actually imperative for adult children to be able to make sense of these things in an accurate context.
23