There will always be next year.
Cheating is the American Way?
Pete Rose BET on BASEBALL.
Come on folks. He deserves nothing, but in Trump's America, I guess he could be the VP or something.
5
If Caminker and Chermerinsky want to advocate for fairness then let the members of the Astros be banned from the game, equalling the punishment given to Pete Rose.
And when they write, 'it’s why when kids protest “That’s not fair,” they typically mean, “That’s a bigger punishment than Jane got when she did something similar.”' it's an advocates view. What the kid is saying is "It's not fair to punish me because I'm special and didn't do anything anyway." Rose was not a kid when he cheated, neither are the Astros or their management. Out with the lot.
5
That’s the kind of baseless calumny that perpetuates injustice.
Unless you have actual evidence that Rose and his legal team caused or contributed to cause Giamatti’s death, don’t use conjecture to suppress the rights of others.
Pete Rose's record belongs in the Hall of Fame. Pete Rose does not.
I will never forget watching him beat up Woody Harrelson at Mets- Reds game. This showed rather blatant unsportsmanlike behavior, just like betting on games later. Tough luck, Pete, you made bad choices so live with the consequences.
2
No.
Rose is an unrepentant hustler.
He has shamelessly worked with gambling operations while he complains about his ban.
No one trusts him or wants anything to do with him.
4
To let Pete Rose off would be like the Senate "acquitting" Donald Trump: undermining the rule of law.
4
Pete Rose was punished for breaking the rule of betting on games. He broke a rule and deserved to be punished. But to hang him from the gallows for betting is overdoing it, since he did not bet in a dishonest way. Betting by insiders is frowned upon and prohibited because (1) insiders have access to inside information and (2) may be in a decision making position that allows them to bet against their own team and make decisions (e.g. not playing a certain player) which increase the probability of winning the bet. That is to say, 'fix games'. Pete Rose didn't do either. He ALWAYS bet in favour of his team. Inside information played no part in deciding what bet to place. He only won bets when the Reds won the game. In terms of violating the trust and integrity of a baseball manager, nothing he did betrayed that trust. He never 'fixed' a game.
Wow! Reading the comments, it’s funny that so many baseball fans seem to believe that MLB has any credibility or integrity for Pete Rose to ruin. It has always been a sport full of cheaters. It probably always will be, until people finally get so bored of it that it becomes economically untenable.
1
Sorry, don't even have to read this one.
.
No better poster boy for why gambling, or anything else that harms Baseball's integrity, don't mix.
.
Pete will never do enough "time" for mixing the two. He's still got all his records and fans. But, no, he'll never belong in the Hall.
.
Don't even get me started on steroids.
1
Are they Pete Rose's lawyers?
1
Pete keeps playing those tiny little violins, but they’re always out of tune.
1
Pete Rose has never shown an ounce of contrition. He is an addict who doesn't seek treatment. He demeans the game.
In short, you are wrong. Keep him out.
1
So let Roids Heroes in too then. The man bet against his own team and never apologized.
1
as if MLB has ever done the right thing - riding steroids in the 90's back to relevance says it all, but don't let those same players into the HOF and if anyone says writers put people in the hall - let me say first: HYPOCRITE
Agreed – let him in.
Nope. When you’re out, you’re out.
No. Pete Rose never fully admitted his guilt despite many opportunities. Plus he was a dirty, opportunistic, non team player and stats pursuer. He should stay in his own hall of infamy.
I have been that saying that Pete looks like a saint compared to these modern cheaters. However, I never really heared Pete apologize with humility. Let’s wrap this up.Send Pete on a talk show tour where he can show real contrition. Have him avoid criticism of others. There is no doubt that Pete is one of the greatest of all time that played for one of the greatest teams. It was my pleasure to beat them for the NL title in 1973 with the Mets. Still, it was a pleasure to watch the “big red machine” with captain Pete Rose.
Notwithstanding baseball, he should be banished from the human race considering his political affiliations. And all the Astros should be thrown out too. Enough, never going back to baseball.
Keep his ban, and re-ban sports bookies while at it. The stolen Court's 2018 malruling[1] was another black mark on its awful legacy, and like a potential Pete Rose unban only encourages the next Rose or A-Roid (dump him already, J-Lo!) by making sports games worth cheating and throwing.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/us/politics/supreme-court-sports-betting-new-jersey.html
Absolutely not. It’s the first rule on a clubhouse wall. Sorry, boys. Your guy deserves what he got.
1
No.
Not a good thing.
We have enough cheaters winning as it is.
MB
2
Sure, Pete gambled but his crime is swagger, having so much of it, flaunting it, in the best Zero Mostel, "Producers" sense. The man's a force of nature, and cardboard cutouts like Fay Vincent, Bud Selig and Manfred viscerally hate the guy. I only have one piece of memorabilia and it is a signed pic of record-breaking Petey standing at 1st base with an elevated #1 finger.
how about shoeless joe in first and them maybe we talk
1
Not to mention the man who investigated Rose, John Dowd, turned out to be a lowlife. No one with any integrity or honor would stoop to defend Trump, and when Dowd did so the credibility of the Dowd Report was shredded. Can a man with no integrity conduct an investigation that has any? I think not.
is it legal for a horse owner to be on his/her own horse? Yes. It's illegal to bet against one's own horse. There was no intimation i know of that rose ever bet against his own team and given he was all about winning no matter what it took, i doubt he ever did. He should get in.
Years ago, I spoke to Frank Robinson about Pete Rose
and Frank said Pete was the most competitive player
he ever met.
Pete was a compulsive gambler, he had to
have some sort of personal excitement via contests in
his life.
Ban Pete the Manager if you insist for eternity
but allow Pete the Player into the Hall of Fame.
Likewise, now that it has been a century since
Shoeless Joe Jackson was caught in a scandal not
of his own making,
please allow the 3rd greatest hitter of all time,
the man Babe Ruth patterned his swing after,
into the Hall of Fame.
We trade with Germany and Japan,
we visit Germany and Japan,
we allow them to visit us -
though 75 years ago they were our sworn enemies.
We allow convicted murderers to leave Prison.
In some States they can vote.
Surely we can allow Joe and Pete into the Hall of Fame.
23
Pete Rose never bet against himself. That would be totally unethical if not illegal and would justify a lifetime ban. But he bet on himself. He just wanted to make more money for being the greatest. Go Pete!
1
Perhaps a deal could be made: President Trump would agree to serve time for Pete Rose in exchange for Rose entering the Hall of Fame. Presidents can do anything now, so this would be a logical move and a sure bet with Trump's base, 3rd, 2nd or otherwise, who approve of everything he does. The selfless deed would also draw cheers from the diehard fans of Team Never—the few remaining—while in the bunkered underground locker rooms of Deep State, countless hard working, country-loving bureaucrats would emit audible sighs of relief, and then get on with their never-ending, anonymous work.
1
Nope.
Putting Rose in the HOF makes a statement, and the statement is that managers betting is O.K.
Which means another manager will try it. And then a player. And then more. And they won't be constrained by the nuance that Rose bet to win.
If you know the rule going in, you don't get let off the hook.
Three strikes and your at-bat is over.
If you gamble on baseball, your career is over.
And the Astros? They got off too easy.
The difference between Rose's actions and the others cited (steroid's, etc.) is that the latter are all intended to gain a competitive advantage, that is, to win.
Gambling on the other hand can,and often does, incentivize losing, or not playing your best . It strikes at the heart of the integrity of the game. That is why it is treated differently from the other transgressions. Otherwise, game over, literally.
1
There is no doubt that Pete Rose, with his 4,256 hit, is the greatest baseball hitter that played the game. It may never be equal.
Be he broke baseball rules as a manager. He suffered enough - 32 years. Where is the compromise?
I think Pete should be inducted with an asterisk - mentioning his accomplishments and offenses.
Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life. He hasn’t done his time yet.
I do believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame, but the price he must pay is that he himself does not get to see it.
And besides, Shoeless Joe, who has paid his lifetime ban, needs to go in the Hall first.
2
Pete Rose may have done his time which many regard as his pass to enter the Hall of Fame. He owes the world of baseball a sincere and authentic apology with an acknowledgement of all of his wrong doings with their implications and consequences. More specifically, he needs to apologize to the Giamatti family for the undue stress that he imposed on the former Commissioner.
1
"Charlie Hustle" left it all out on the field; every game, every time. Didn't abuse drugs (recreational or otherwise) or abuse women, DIDN'T CHEAT, and was a player's player. It's absurd the transgressions of others get glossed over, and a legend is ostracized for making what amounted to piddly side bets.
" presidents and governors often grant clemency to people serving harsh sentences imposed long ago, after seeing later wrongdoers receive relative slaps on the wrist."
I don't think so. The reason is that with each transgression, people become more tolerant of the error. Second, and it is a corollary to the former, the sense of propriety changes as time goes by. It is not that the punishment was not just, it is that we have changed.
No.
"Banned for life", means banned for life.
The Black Sox scandal in the early Twentieth Century was another example of cheating. The City College basket ball team in 1951 shaving points to win the NIT and NCAA title is another.
No one has a "right" to be in the Hall of Fame.
Now the Hall of Infamy: That's another story. He can apply for that. I have no objection.
3
Rose never cheated in a game he played in and has been banned for life. All of the Astros hitters cheated as players for several years, won one World Series and almost another. Yet, they have had no repercussions, none. Not even a private chat with their Union rep., much less the Commissioner. No fines, no suspensions, much less a lifetime ban. The $5M fine paid by the owner of the Astros was peanuts. The lack of intellectual and moral integrity from the Commissioner's office is both appalling and stunning in each measure. Bring back the spirit of Kenesaw Mountain Landis. He'd immediately bring back integrity to the game.
1
A compromise would be to treat a lifetime ban as a lifetime ban, not an eternal one. As Ted Williams suggested for Shoeless Joe Jackson, his lifetime ban shouldn't keep Jackson from posthumous induction in the Hall of Fame. Similarly, induct Pete Rose into the Hall after he dies.
1
Integrity happens to be one of the requirements for Hall of Fame inclusion. That should rule out Ty Cobb and Bob Feller among many others. These two were mistakes and went against an important requirement. Pete Rose also fails this part of the test to get into the Hall.
3
The excuse that Rose only bet on his own team to win doesn't wash. It would have been one thing if he bet on his team to win every game it played but he didn't. Do the professors not believe that gamblers took a message away from those games Rose didn't bet on?
But I'm for Rose getting into the HOF. Just after he finds a way to apologize in person to Bart Giamatti for attacking him and no doubt contributing to his premature death.
3
Trump gets a second term, he’ll give him the Medal of Freedom. It’s already been devalued.
My understanding of this is that Pete Rose walked into the commissioner's office, was presented with all the evidence that had been collected. This was a private meeting and that that evidence was never actually made public. There things that came out. Reporters and others have dug deep into this. But what was shown hasn't ever been released as far as I know. What I do know is that Pete rose walked out of that office and has NEVER said any word about what was discussed. That fact should tell you about how serious it was. I think if Rose started to complain about not being in the hall then the commissioner would release all that they have and it would not be good. As for the Astro cheaters, they also should be banned.
2
The Dowd report apparently had his fingerprints on the betting slips. Pete knew he was done.
1
There has been one off-field rule in baseball since the beginning. It's been posted in every clubhouse for over 100 years. Professional security people who work for MLB talk to the players each spring, and in each city tell the players which bars are off-limits, all to help with adherence to the rule. The rule is sacrosant.
That rule: no gambling.
For people who said he only bet on his team to win: What did the bookie do when Rose didn't bet? That's very valuable information. Also, it doesn't matter that he bet to win.
He broke the one rule. Banned forever.
5
Seems like what you are arguing for is that the Red Sox and Astros should face much stiffer penalties to which I agree. Their titles should be stripped. Those that were at the heart of the scandal should be banned from baseball. Those that participated should be suspended and fined significant times and amounts.
Rose had lots of choices to feed his gambling predilections. He could have bet on horse racing, the NFL, the NBA, college football or basketball, etc.
Instead he chose to bet on Major League Baseball. As Caminker and Chemerinsky surely know, and as Rose knew at the time, that has always been regarded as a red line that would result in a lifetime ban. Players are lectured on this every Spring Training and there's a big sign posted in every clubhouse. Betting on baseball is simply different than the other offenses mentioned.
There is no reason to weaken any of the above by lessening Rose's punishment. Everyone recognizes him as an all-time great ballplayer and the "Hit King," but he shouldn't be accorded the game's greatest honor.
1
100% agree and thank you for your advocacy. I am not a big baseball fan, but I have always been bothered by what seems like an injustice. It would be different if he had profited off manipulation. Cheating. But that isn't what he did.
He has been punished. I think he has suffered more than enough - even by the standards of people who could harbor such long-term animus.
Let's end this while he is still here to appreciate the forgiveness/redemption.
2
Fantasy leagues have already called the integrity of the game into question. Pete Rose bet on his team, and at the time this was what we thought was a great threat. Then PEDs came along and everything changed. We find ourselves rationalizing the Astros and Red Sox systematic cheating, and the use of PEDs continues. I'm in favor of the HOF describing this era as one of tech advance that out ran the ability of MLB to police. Let Rose, Bonds, Clemens into the Hall and face history.
1
Has enough time gone by for Shoeless Joe Jackson to get into the Hall of Fame?
No?
Talk to me about Rose when Shoeless Joe gets in.
2
Or as retired sidearm pitcher Kent Tekulve said a few years ago:
"The first thing any player thinks of is competition, and obviously, the man competed like crazy. As the saying goes -- and they say it way too many times about way too many guys -- Pete played the game the right way. He played it the way a professional is supposed to play it.
"But you go in from day one representing your team, yourself and your city. And because of the Black Sox scandal, baseball had clearer rules about what would happen to you if you gambled, as opposed to if you killed somebody. So every player had it beaten into them. As a fan, I'm disappointed in Pete. Here's this guy who played the game the right way, but he let me down, he let the Reds down and he let the city down. He let down everybody who was a fan of his. It was such a wasted opportunity for him to be the whole face of baseball."
Or as Rose's teammate catcher Johnny Bench said: "I've been on three committees that have drawn up ways for Pete to get on the non-restricted list, and Pete's failed to do it every time. The question always is: 'Do you believe Pete should be in the Hall of Fame?' And I ask, 'Do you have kids?' If Rose is in, you can tell them that there are no more rules.' We've all had to abide by rules."
Or as Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Feller said:
"I'm tired of hearing about Pete Rose. He's history. Has he ever read what's posted in the clubhouse? If he can't read, he better get glasses."
Sorry, Pete, you blew it.
8
Absolutely let Pete in. It was ridiculous enough to start with, but now real cheaters like Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are being promoted for membership. Which type had a bigger - by a long shot - effect on the game?
And the Astros should have to forfeit their World Series championship.
Getting so sick of the Great Pete Rose Debate (and sick of Pete rose, too). Love the headline that he's "done his time." As if he's been in San Quentin. He makes over a million a year signing autographs, for crying out loud. And is still a chronic gambler.
The rules are--and were--clear. If you're in baseball, you can't bet on baseball. Period.
The Astros comparison is just an irrelevant distraction.
5
"You will be banned for life", thats what it said when he gambled.
Pete Rose knew it, and did it anyway.
He wouldn't apologize, he wouldn't show any contrition, in fact he showed just the opposite.
Banned for life, no room for interpretation.
He can get into the Hall, as soon as he finishes his sentence.
1
Major League Baseball doesn’t control who’s eligible for the Hall of Fame.
It's the Hall of Fame, not the Criminal Hall of Fame.
You can argue whether or not Pete Rose got what he deserved. All the other cheaters that got wrist slaps are smirking at you and me on their way to the bank. Great role models all.
Letting the Astros cheat their way to the World Series, and letting them keep the fruits of their fraud makes a mockery of Pete Rose’s punishment.
38
@Bailey T. Dog Every team knew about the Astros, and nobody said anything. Why? Because they did it too, but perhaps not the extent of the Astros. Nobody called them on it, so it stands.
1
Baloney. He bet on games from the dugout. He was an adult when he did it. End of conversation. Too bad for Pete. I don't care if he's 178.
Any other infractions are just that--other infractions.
Rose should never, ever be allowed in the Hall. He should probably never be let into a major league stadium where he didn't buy a ticket.
44
@JayDubya
And yet we have a POTUS who attempts to rig an election, and gets away with it by obstructing an investigation. Then, he does it again, and gets away with it again. Acquitted by a bias jury without witnesses.
Baseball in just a game. Our elected leaders determine our future, and the fate of our democracy (or lack there of).
A little perspective on what Rose did may be appropriate, but I completely agree that cheaters should be punished appropriately and Rose is no exception.
5
@JayDubya Cardinals fan.
2
@JayDubya
Why do you so hate Pete Rose,
what did he ever do to you ?
One of the greatest players in the game
who had a gambling addiction.
Meanwhile teams conspire to win the World Series
and they get one year ban ?
Pete bets on his own team to win and you ban him
for a lifetime ?
By what moral calculus do you operate under ?
7
Yes, end his long exile from baseball! He has indeed done his time, and should regain his well deserved place in the hall of fame. To continue punishing one of the greatest players of all time seems cruel, vindictive and pointless. Surely that is not the image that MLB hopes to project.
20
@chintermeister and to honor a cheater tells all other players they should feel free to cheat. Surely that is not the message of good sportsmanship the MBL hopes to project.
Pete will land in the HOF.
It won't be any time soon; possibly as early as his passing, though more likely longer. I write this with a lot of, but not total regret, because character matters. What we do not know now and cannot know 20 or 60 years hence what components and perceptions will constitute a public understanding of character.
Consider the current presidential administration if you doubt that.
It will happen after those making the decisions and counting the ballots have no first-hand memory of the quality of Pete's play and what he accomplished at bat, on the bases, and and in the field.
There may too come a reckoning for those who used performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, perhaps Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, et al., though the best of that lot do not measure up to Rose.
I thought so, too, until one day I came into contact with him. As a contemporary of his, I thought that meaningful and I tried to express my sentiments to him. He cut me off, declining to talk to me unless I paid for an autograph. He doesn’t deserve clemency.
2
One difference between Pete Rose and the others- Pete Rose continues to deny many of the allegations against him. It has been the lowlifes crawling out from the woodwork saying that they took his bets, or ran his bets, or saw him betting that confirmed the case against him. Rose is still in denial.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the other set of cheaters, the steroid users, although not banned from the Hall of Fame, have not been elected to it. Based strictly upon their statistics, Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds would have been first round choices for admittance.
As others have said, the only argument in this piece that holds water is that the Astros received an insufficient penalty. The law professors should stay in their lane- this isn't a legal dispute.
The authors make excellent points for continuing the ban. The "only remotely comparable analogy," they acknowledge, was the 1919 World Series. What happened to those guys? Same thing as happened to Rose. We should celebrate, really, such consistency. As for steroid users, how many are in the hall of fame? As many as there are who were known to have bet on baseball. So, there's that.
Sign stealing? Absolutely--there were reportedly emails and a spreadsheet laying everything out, so you have to wonder, if there was documentary evidence, why'd all the players go unpunished? But one mistake shouldn't open the floodgates to others.
Pete Rose is a wealthy man who has led a comfortable life. He suffers only for want of his good name. He surrendered that, and it's time for him to just go away.
5
In this age of global legal injustices, I'm glad to see that the deans of two of the great American law schools have their priorities straight.
2
Let's see, the Houston Astros Players were all in on cheating to gain a competitive advantage and they were all given immunity
by Commissioner Manfred. While Pete Rose behaved badly and should be held to account but where is the fairness?
Mr. Manfred needs to explain his justification for giving players
"a free pass" for cheating while continuing to punish Mr. Rose.
1
I watched Pete Rose play. No one put more into playing the game of baseball than Pete Rose. For God's sake, put him back in.
1
"We look to sports not only for entertainment but also for how we talk to our children about fairness on and off the field."
The above statement is the ideal. However, the reality comes down to "do what I say, not as I do."
1
As I understand it, he never bet that he would lose. With his competitiveness I am sure that was the most important thing. I am doing research on golf in the 1920's and 30's---newspapers printed odds. My grandfather played at that time, and he would never play except to win and do his best. Indeed, keeping gambling away is the right thing to do, but let Pete Rose have the honor I believe he deserves.
Nice to know that these deans of law schools are really fighting societies tough injustices, and important battles - and pro bono too.
2
First of all, they’re right, Second, it’s not uncommon for lawyers to work on cases — big and small — on a pro bono basis. They also tend to work on more than one case at a time. So it’s quite likely that these two esteemed law professors are working on other cases you would deem more worthy.
With Rose, he is in a category unto himself. Others have broken the rules of baseball, but have done so in an effort to win. Rose’s betting on his own team to win and lose games (there’s plenty of evidence he bet against the Reds as well) means that he may have tried to throw games to win a bet, or exhaust all his players in order to win a game (to win a bet) at the expense of the next two or three games.
With his position and his control over his team combined with the fact that he wasn’t necessarily interested in only winning, his actions had much more impact on the integrity of baseball than round rage. He’s closer to Shoeless Joe Jackson than Barry Bonds.
1
Yes, he only bet on his team to win, but on days that he did not bet, that could be a signal to gamblers too
2
An apples/oranges distinction needs to be made between his career as a player and then as a manager.
Rose should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame to acknowledge his extraordinary performance as one of the top 1% of all players ever in the game.
His Hall of Shame plaque can include an explanation of his punishment and ban, which was based primarily on his capacity as a manager, where he could influence the outcome of games and his betting skewed his decision making.
2
Just curious as to why Trump hasn't threatened MLB's antitrust exemption over this. It would fit right in with his criminal justice reform push. Pete's well-known and I'm sure Kim Kardashian or someone like her--Pam Bondi, maybe--could lobby Trump on Pete's behalf. Is there no political gain in it?
It's incredible this column makes no mention whatever of the real reason Rose received (and in my opinion richly deserved) the harsh punishment of having Cooperstown's door slammed permanently in his face: The heart attack which killed Bart Giametti at the age of 51 only 8 days after Giametti, acting as Commissioner of Baseball, banned Rose from baseball for gambling.
Here's an excerpt from an article on the connection between Rose's ban and Giametti's death:
"The shadows of Bart Giamatti, the commissioner who banned Pete Rose in 1989 for betting on Reds games, and Fay Vincent, who succeeded Giamatti after he died of a heart attack eight days later ... .
[Before he died] Giamatti had said Rose and his attorneys put [him] through his own "private agony" that summer. Rose had refused to meet with Giamatti and went to court to challenge Giamatti's power to punish Rose ... .
Vincent, Giamatti's friend and deputy, blamed Rose for Giamatti's death. As commissioner, Vincent convinced the Hall of Fame board in 1991 to increase Rose's punishment by barring Rose and others on the permanently ineligible list from the Hall."
Bart Giametti was beloved -- and for good reason. A sweet, sensitive and erudite man, he was a professor of literature at Yale and later its president -- and also the father of actor Paul Giametti, another sweet and talented man.
Those of us who loved and admired Bart think Rose got exactly what he deserved.
4
Sorry, as a cardiologist, blaming Pete for Bart’s heart disease doesn’t add up.
1
If this is true--"We look to sports not only for entertainment but also for how we talk to our children about fairness on and off the field," then we ignore the ugly capitalism that sports demonstrate and there's no fairness there at all. Somehow children can become decent human beings and never play a sport or spend more than a few hours per week watching, if at all. Any work of fiction teaches fairness and ridicules the culture of false heroes, most of whom disappear in a very short time.
This Dodger fan proposes a prisoner swap. The entire Houston Astros organization for a single Pete Rose.
You are wrong on this. "No one has ever claimed that Rose’s misconduct was intended to gain a competitive advantage over other teams or had the slightest effect on the outcomes of any games." Pete Rose himself said "If I have enough money on the game, yeah, I'll throw it. " Rose was betting that he would get in the Hall of Fame, "Guaranteed"-- no matter what he did gambling on his own team- to keep the cost of his punishment down. He took advantage of his fan base and the general good nature of fans. No, he has not paid the price. If he gets into the Hall of Fame, that's called "Getting away with it." He has the record, that speaks for his good side. Buy just because enforcement has gone down, doesn't mean we let him off the hook. He will Never deserve it.
5
Sure, let him back in. After all, he gave me quite a few moments of pleasure by taunting him with shouts of "Rosie, Rosie" from the bleachers at Wrigley Field.
As for law perfessors Caminker and Chemerinsky, please note that I, too, am writing this "pro bono."
1
Inasmuch as Erwin Chemerinsky is a diehard Cubs fan (I am one of his many former students), I’m sure he’d approve.
1
Whether Pete Rose should or shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, I think Major League Baseball has a bigger priority to deal with today. I suspect baseball's most recent scandal is going to get even bigger. Check out an article published online this afternoon in The Washington Post: "The world just learned of the Astros' cheating. Inside baseball, it was an open secret."
2
having a couple of legal beagles push your case is not exactly redemption. Apart from the fact that he was not a "nice guy," his denial by the HOF is based on his addiction. He was a fine ballplayer, just let it go at that.
Oh puhleeze! Where does the guy live? Vegas. Why? He can’t stop gambling. He knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. How is his behavior indicative of the best of the best?
Pete Rose's name is in the record books. The Hall of Fame is an honor. Not the same thing. Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez and others are learning that lesson, too, that you are not honored for acting dishonorably.
4
He was a slime. He knew what he was doing. Cheating.
Now every man in America gets to cheat and we shrug our shoulders?
He was banned for life for good reason.
If only black people, illegally jailed, would receive such commendation.
What a terrible example to set for everyone, especially young people.
As if Trump if isn't devastating enough for the Country ...
6
"Done his time'....my immediate thought was that he had spent time in jail and was seeking redemption (YES of course). Reading further, I learn that he illegally bet on his own team and has been excluded from the hall of fame..,.,.SERIOUSLY? In a world with so may real problems and manifest injustices, why would this appeal be in the pages of an international newspaper???? Somebody's PR firm must have paid somebody a lot of money....
4
The authors twice invokes children as the litmus test for how to decide on a player who gambled on his own games. Just to get this straight, let me characterize your explaining this to children: “…get over the notion that your heroes should be people of good character; it’s all about winning and breaking records, and the Hall of Fame is imperfect already so we might as well debase it further.” My purpose here is not to be holier than thou [I've made my share of mistakes] and Pete Rose was a great baseball player. But the authors in my opinion do a disservice to young people, who deserve better, by trying to use them to bolster a questionable argument.
6
He’s a terrible example. I say no.
5
I’m not a big fan of baseball. I do not follow baseball players. I do think that Pete Rose has paid his debt. He should be reinstated and eligible for Hall if Fame.
1
The old SF Chron columnist Charles McCabe used to say baseball was honest, but football and basketball weren't.
Pretty much all sports with high $ stakes are now dirty.
The best move is to ignore them and also to let all the violators in all of them back in... the current ethical level in all professional sports and the Olympics is so low letting violators in couldn't lower things any more.
The best move is then to utterly ignore all those sports.
1
The passage of time does not erase guilt. What is so wrong with punishing people for their transgressions?
2
Baseball fans deserve to see Pete Rose in the HoF. But Pete Rose does not deserve to witness his own induction. The day after his death he should be voted in.
I’m confused. Two highly accomplished legal scholars are representing Pete Rose pro bono. But they offer no legal arguments? Precedent, failure to follow proper procedure, false testimony, etc? Nothing. Nada. Basically their argument is that Pete Rose was treated unfairly, which is clearly subjective. Mr. Rose, if you have some money you should hire some better lawyers.
4
Finally, a thoughtful piece on Pete Rose. Thank you.
He never bet against his own team and was known as "Charlie Hustle" for giving his all on the field. He never cheated.
Wait a second. Before anyone does anything for Pete Rose, we have to make things right for Hack Wilson and his 191 rbi in a season. That is the one record that will never be broken. And Hack's character is saintly compared to Pete Rose.
1
If this is the best argument for letting Pete Rose back into baseball, he’ll die still banned from baseball.
A sterner punishment for the Astros seems the better course.
5
Who cares about a museum whose membership is decided by a bunch of writers with axes to grind?
The only thing less relevant is that silly HOF in Cleveland.
Its Only Rock n' Roll but i like it. You don't like rock music and that's ok. Rose was banned from baseball by the Commissioner. The writers can decide on Rose's fate if and when Rose gets reinstated. I don't feel that Rose should be reinstated. Reinstatement says to me that Rose will have "gotten away with betting on baseball". To me, that is a bridge too far.
In a lot of ways, seriously, who’s Pete Rose? What’s Trump know about baseball or what is fair? Move on. Even publishing this is ridiculous.
4
Hmm...nope. I hear you, but no.
1
I cannot follow the logic here. Steroid use benefits the player's performance and also the team wins.
Gambling benefits solely the gambler.
I can't equate the two in this discussion.
2
Pete Rose in certain ways is very much Like Donald Trump but with extraordinary achievements that are real, not counterfeit.
In probably the two examples where is very much like Trump, other than his sexism and homophobia and generally obnoxiousness involve two plays. The first where in an all star game playing as if it was last inning of the World Series he barreled into catcher Ray Fosse and severely hurt him. The other play was when he was struck out by reliever Gene Garber on wicked pitch that ended his 44 game hitting streak. Rose complained bitterly, without one second of self-reflection, that Garber pitched to him like it was the last inning of the in the 7th game of the World Series.
But unlike Trump, I think he should be in the Hall. I think so should Shoeless Joe Jackson. And now with with the way things are going, why not the Medal of Freedom also.
3
Maguire, Canseco, Sosa are all eligible. Chances are they will never make the Hall. And that's the way it should be. But, let the voters decide. The Hall has an artificial "Rose Rule" that won't even allow him on the ballot.
1
I don’t see how the two are directly connected. It makes more sense to vacate the titles of the Astros and any other team that participated in the sign stealing affair. I haven’t given up on MLB exacting real penalties. Loss of title, lengthy individual suspensions and massive fines for the implicated teams all sound appropriate. Letting Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame because baseball has - 30 years later - completely debased its standards of just punishment simply makes no sense.
2
Leave it to lawyers to get it completely backwards. At a time when the integrity of the game is called into question due to the actions of recent World Series winners, they advocate for reinstatement of one of the clearest violators in the game’s history. And one who obviously remains unrepentant at that. “What about-isms” might work in politics or populist movements, but in this case, the facts are so obvious, it’s laughable.
6
Funny, I’m not laughing about recent, obvious, events.
Never!
Betting within the sport calls everything he did into question.
And he was a despicable human to boot.
Not a role model to be venerated.
3
I find it quite perplexing that as an attorney you would fail to mention the absolute rule. That being rule 21. Which is clearly posted in every clubhouse in Major League Baseball. These rules are posted meaning no less than any FLSA rule posted on the walls of any work establishment millions of people make a living from. And he continues to consort with gamblers.
3
I’m surprised Trump hasn’t awarded Pete Rose the presidential medal of freedom by now.
5
I met Pete Rose when my family frequented a restaurant he owned in Florida. It was long after he had retired. He is not a very nice man. I recall that he would not give my 7 year old nephew an autograph unless it was written on merch purchased from his gift shop. He parked his big, red ostentatious speedboat, named “Hit King”, on a trailer in the restaurant parking lot. I’m sure he parked it there so he could say he used it as advertising and get some tax benefits. I never saw him smile.
Just a mile or so from Rose’s restaurant was another one, owned by Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt wasn’t exactly a bunch of fun either. I suppose if I were gawked at constantly, with people always asking dumb questions and treating me like I was a freak, I wouldn’t be so amiable either.
But justice is blind for a reason. Pete and Wilt were two of the greatest athletes that ever suited up. I fully agree that Charlie Hustle has paid his dues, and that the lack of any penalties assessed against Astro players makes continued banishment of Rose simply unfair.
To keep Rose out of the HOF and let a despicable person like Ty Cobb in, at this point is hypocritical. Although it may be too early to vote him in- not when he could probably still help the Mets on the field.
So now as the entire country is embracing sports betting does it make any sense to continue Rose's ban? Methinks not!
Our nails are stocked with marijuana convicts that never made sense but now that it's a cash cow to greed laden politicians that stigma is being lifted.
Forget the steroids, hdh and opioids. MLB and all pro sports can't contain these synthetics from growing within their sport. MLB has actually supported slick solutions to keep fans in their seats.
At this rate, how long before we see robotics hitting that fastball? Sayonara to those overpaid jocks, AI will create the next generation of sports and fans.
Despite growing up in a staunchly Cubs household, my childhood baseball hero was Pete Rose. But when the revelations surfaced that Pete was an unrepentant cheat and liar, my heart was irreparably broken.
Pete Rose can rot in baseball purgatory for all eternity.
4
If this were a .225 lifetime hitter who played for a couple of seasons and somehow made it as a manager who never won any titles, would you be making the same argument? Doubtful.
But we're talking about the all-time leader in hits who also made it as a manager who never won any titles, so you're in his corner.
It was wrong then. It was wrong now.
Many other borderline sinners in baseball paid for their alleged mistakes forever. The first commissioner, Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis, had a long list of players beyond the Black Sox -- some for much less than Charlie the Hustler's transgressions .
He was caught red-handed and you want to make a hero out of him.
Please find another cause that would befit the knowledge and years of your collective experience. There are plenty of folks out there who can't afford decent representation. Use your knowledge and talent for the good, not for publicity.
3
If the Astros can keep their title, Trump can be aquitted, and Roger Stone's sentence can be reduced, Pete can be in the Hall.
1
@ATC
So, how many “wrongs” make “a right?”
Four.
I can’t agree, although I do respect Rose as a player and I believe that in part his sin was in getting caught.
1
If the Hall of Fame was just about statistics, we wouldn’t need people to vote for candidates - we’d just feed data into a computer and it would spit out the players for the Hall.
Rose violated the spirit of the game, used poor judgment, and does not possess the character required for enshrinement in the Hall.
The lifetime ban must stand, with no Hall of Fame for Mr.Rose.
4
Let's see...he cheated, he lied, he broke the league rules.
Yet, he apparently never got arrested, never had to serve any time.
Gee, I guess lying and cheating as a leader in a sport or industry is not a big deal anymore.
1
Did Pete ever admit that he gambled on a game , breaking baseball's cardinal rule that protected the integrity of the game? Anyway, Trump tweeted that Pete was OK, also that war criminals, corrupt politicians, carbon emission, polution, lying, and illiberal governments are also OK.
when did Rose show contrition?
show me!
1
The catcher should code the sign and puzzle the batter—best to assume people are watching. Encryption is a sweet thing.
Surely you could find better use for your pro bono efforts?
5
Compared to trump, he is a saint!
3
He was a childhood hero of mine. But he is also a cheat and a lair. As an adult I had the chance to meet him in Vegas, he was only interested in talking if I bought a signed ball. Which I refused.
He does not deserve to be reinstated or in the Hall. Perhaps after his death he can be admitted.
3
I thought lawyers were supposed to be smart....
2
What a fool's errand this is and has always been. Forgiven is not forgotten. Doesn't really matter how many times this nonsense is rehashed on behalf of this person or any other in any other sport or any other profession. The deed was done and the result is indelible. It's never really been a matter of winning or losing. It's always been about how you play the game.
I understand that you are Pete's lawyers, and are thus duty-bound to advance Pete's interests. I am a life-long baseball fan. You are completely, totally, and utterly wrong.
I love this game. And desperately want to still.
Pete in HOF. Nope.
5
Too many of our institutions have been sullied. Can’t we at least try to keep a semblance of integrity in baseball? Pete Rose: not now, not ever.
4
Comparing a cocaine user to a racist and a perpetrator of domestic violence: Isn’t that just another example of the sort of moral dissimilitude the authors are critiquing?
I am a lawyer and I love a good argument. But it is not the case that the purpose of clemency is simply to bring older sentences in line with lenient sentences imposed in the intervening years; rather, it is to correct a punishment that has been determined to be unjust given the nature of crime and/or the character of the convicted person based on the society’s current conceptions of fairness. This is an important distinction. The justice of a punishment does not require that all guilty parties are punished similarly (assuming, of course, that the system is not institutionally discriminatory, which no one is arguing in the case here); if this were a requirent, no criminal punishment would be “just” because, invariably, many perpetrators are never prosecuted for a host of reasons. (Because we value individual rights, the justice system is, by design, under-inclusive.) The critical question is whether the punishment is appropriate to the conduct and here the authors’ arguments fail to persuade. (Analogizing Pete Rose’s experience to incarceration would be offensive to people actually serving time if not so laughably over-the-top. Confederacy of Dunces, anyone?)
I respect the authors greatly and hope they will direct their formidable legal talents towards more deserving causes very soon.
3
Rose has been contrite and changed his ways?! Please. He vehemently denied betting on baseball for 15 years. His ' confession ' that he did bet came via an autobiography for which he was paid him handsomely. And even with this confession, which essentially confirmed all of Commissioner Giamatti's original findings against him, he still never apologized to the Giamatti family for his previously having called ( in his 1989 suit trying to block the Dowd report) Giamatti " biased and prejudiced" against him. Oh and he continues to gamble on sports.
7
So, now it's OK to break the rules as long as you wait for enough time to pass?
Pete Rose bet on games, and on games he was in. He lied about it then. That was against the rules.
I'm truly sorry Mr. Rose had a gambling sickness. But he knowingly, repeatedly broke the rules.
No Hall of Fame for Charlie Hustle, and that is truly sad.
10
He was a great baseball player. His records will stand the test of time. What difference does it make if he joins a bunch of players, most of whom were inferior to him, in a tourist attraction and advertising outfit called the Hall of Fame. Remember Groucho Marx, who said he'd refuse to join any club that would let him in?
3
Betting on your own sport, while you are active in it cuts right to the core of the sport. So is cheating like the Astros did. We shouldn’t condone either. Pete Rose did no time... He was simply banned... appropriately. Quit apologizing for him.
2
I have a copy of the report attorney John Dowd wrote for MLB on Rose’s activities.The lawyers should read it, then they might understand why Rose’s banishment will not be lifted.
8
Nothing John Dowd says or does is worth a fig.
Pete Rose deserves a place in the Hall of Fame. When the ban is lifted, he’ll be a first ballot inductee.
2
I think it has always been up to Pete Rose. All he had to do was 1.) admit he bet on baseball, and 2.) be sorry about it. Gamblers can't go that far.
5
Pete Rose agreed to the lifetime ban. He broke the most well known rule in the sport. Most of the rules of the game have changed over the decades, but the rule against gambling has remained the same (as it should).
Let's also remember that while Pete Rose doesn't have a plaque in Cooperstown he is well represented throughout the Hall. Pete Rose agreed to the lifetime ban. He broke the most well-known rule in the sport. Most of the rules of the game have changed over the decades, but the rule against gambling has remained the same (as it should).
Let's also remember that while Pete Rose doesn't have a plaque in Cooperstown, he is well represented throughout the Hall.
2
I am speaking as someone who grew up a fan of the Big Red Machine in the '70s who loved Pete Rose. With that said he saw the posting in every major and minor league clubhouse he walked into warning of the consequences of betting every day of his career yet he chose to ignore those warnings. He should stay banned from both baseball and the Hall of Fame
6
It just goes to show that nothing in America is beyond reproach. Contracts can be broken, churches can hide assets to protect them from lawsuits for systematic sexual abuse over generations, elected officials get “speaking fees” and under the table campaign donations and a serial liar is in the White House.
That this is even being raised is disgusting. Rose was caught, that’s it, end of story. Get off the field, live the rest of your life in the shadows, that’s where you belong. Pete Rose is a criminal, no Hall of Fame plaque.
1
Actually, Pete Rose is not a criminal. He didn’t break any laws. He didn’t go to jail.
1
Mark McGuire too! Rush Limbaugh too!
What a joke - they’ll need an asterisk for these degenerates.
1
There is no valid argument given here. We do not yet know how MLB will ultimately rule on the sign stealing scandal. Rose and his mouthpieces have jumped the gun. Had he waited until MLB completes the process, he may have had an argument, depending on the final decision. But opportunistically jumping in now shows just how self-absorbed Rose is.
The argument that MLB didn't do enough about steroid cheats does not hold water. I agree that MLB did not do enough. It has forced the HOF to deal with that scandal. But suggesting that because MLB failed in that case somehow exonerates Rose is false. Rose was guilty, McGwire and Bonds and others were guilty. Spinelessness on the part of MLB in the 90's and 00's does not support exoneration of Rose.
I will accept Rose's reinstatement after his full and unvarnished confession to his wrongdoing, and a sincere apology. And after Shoeless Joe Jackson is reinstated. Until now he has done everything except admit personal responsibility or show remorse. If MLB gives in to Rose now, they will lose yet more fans.
5
He signed a contract. He agreed, he promised, not to do x. He did x. This violated a rule of the game, and he didn't keep his word. He cheated. End of story. Whether other people broke their word and didn't get punished is irrelevant.
Stop the whining. You didn't like the rule? Don't promise to follow it. Other people got away with something? Hey, in sports, people get away with things. If you play sports, you know that. If you can't deal with that, don't play the game.
5
His lifetime banishment was fair and just so why should we now make it less so. You sleep with dogs you get fleas. He doesn't belong back in baseball, period.
5
I've felt Pete Rose's punishment was excessively harsh, from the moment it was imposed. Yet, over time it has become a distinctive mark of his career performance. To have accomplished so much - 22 records that may take decades more to surpass - yet ignored by MLB decree. Rose's accomplishments cannot be undone. They happened. Negating them would have to change the outcome of all the games he played in.
In this, Pete Rose will continue to be remembered as unique in Baseball - a superstar spurned by the sport. And that uniqueness means he will be remembered better than all the heroes in the Hall of Fame.
3
Rose’s accomplishments are not ignored. They are in all the record books, and posted on star boards in Cooperstown.
Nor does anyone imply or say they were ill-gotten, as with Bonds.
He is banned from MLB activities and from the Hall, however, because he violated a written rule — one that is posted in every clubhouse. Whether his punishment is fair is hard to judge as it is unique, but let’s be clear-eyed about the facts.
5
“Stat boards”
The last thing Baseball needs is a lawyers opinion.
8
Pete Rose did bad things, but nobody tried harder to win. It creates a lot of discomfort when major league baseball tries to erase from history someone of Rose' accomplishments and dogged competitiveness on the field. It seems inevitable that his existence will be acknowledged, so why not just do so now.
3
Perhaps Cooperstown needs to construct a separate sub-basement wing to honor those ball players of HOF caliber who have been banned for life or have been known for their cheating and gambling behaviors. Their HOF plaques could include their baseball numbers in addition to full explanations of their disapproved behaviors.
Among those in the so-called “Dark Hall” would be:
“Shoeless” Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds
Mark McGuire
Sammy Sosa
Manny Ramirez
Roger Clemens
Rafael Palmeiro
Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez
Jeff Bagwell
Alex Rodriguez
4
Great idea!
1
Oh man, you stole my idea for an alternative HOF. It would include all you mention, and highlight the many sordid affairs and dark periods of baseballs history, including the drugs and fights. It would be a bar, of course. I would put it close to Cooperstown, and it would feature cage matches between Red Sox and Yankee fans. Looking for investors.
1
great idea!
1
Horse racing was once the most attended sport in America. And today?
Major League Baseball does not want to go the way of horse racing, and this is why the one sin that is unforgivable in Major League Baseball is betting on baseball when you are involved in the outcome of the contest, period.
No one will go to games if they think the outcome could possibly be fixed, or a manager or player could put their thumb on the scale, and MLB attendance will die just it has in horse racing has in America, and for the same reason.
This, BTW, is also why steroid users and electronic sign stealers must also be banned. They are killing the game, and it will end up becoming horse racing.
1
Every MLB Clubhouse has a large sign “NO GAMBLING” Rose was unable to understand that sign. The Black Sox almost ended baseball, the games can’t be fixed there can’t be players and managers betting on the games they play. Rose lied about everything, he got what he deserved.
8
It's a Hall of Fame (and infamy), not a convent of righteous virgin nuns.
His on-field history and numbers leave no doubt.
The Hall of Fame itself has an asterisk next to its name until Rose is let in.
4
Compared to what Trump has done Pete Rose is a Saint!!
1
These two distinguished professors would apply Trumpian clemency standards to Pete Rose, a three-time loser:
repetitive gambling, falsely denying betting on Reds games, and felony convictions for income tax evasion.
Major League Baseball Rule 21(d) provides a lifetime ban for any player betting on his own team. Rose deserves that penalty, and, fortunately, Trump can't grant clemency to this miscreant.
8
What about all of those who DIDN'T cheat?
3
The problem is not that Pere Rose should be lightly punished because steroid cheaters like Mark McGuire were. Rather, it's that the steroid cheaters should be punished as hard as Pete Rose.
7
Trump in the White House and Rose not in the hall...
1
Admit Rose one year AFTER Joe Jackson!
2
Joe Jackson should be in.
1
Suddenly this appears right after it's reported in the news that Trump weighed in with the same opinion.
I'd say no just to not let him have the satisfaction.
Be that as it may, my bet is on a tacit agreement that he'll be honored posthumously.
No. No. No.
1
What’s a fair punishment? One that both fits the offense and matches the penalty others get for doing similar things.
********
Remind me again who else it was in Major League Baseball that bet on Major League Baseball games? They didn't get the same punishment? Wait, a minute.............. there hasn't been anyone else?
The MLB rule book quite clearly states what the punishment for betting is. What exactly isn't fair about enforcing the rules and the consequences of breaking them?
5
Pete back in baseball?...not at all. What's glassed-over is that Pete agreed to the lifetime ban. Now he thinks everyone should just forget his past and his lack of character. People mention Bonds, A-Rod and others but they never agreed to a ban in the first place. Our culture has sunk in the past years but let's hope it doesn't get so low that a person is not held accountable for the decisions they make. Pete was always about Pete...never about the team nor baseball. He got the hits to make him the all time leader by being a player-manager and constantly inserting himself into the line-up despite younger and more productive players being available, costing the team runs and wins. Anybody remember his tantrum after his hitting streak ended in Atlanta? He whined and belly-ached about the Atlanta pitchers not giving him belt high pitches instead of doing their job and getting him out. He played with intensity but he always thought he was above the rules, was selfish, and should always be given special privileges. Toward the end of his career, baseball would have been better off without him. Since he has been gone, no one has missed him.
5
I'm so tired of whataboutism being used to justify someone's conduct. Rose's punishment was absolute when it was doled out. You bet on baseball, you get banned for life. I don't care if the sign-giving crimes of the Astros or any other team are equal or even worse than Rose's. Relativism is irrelevant when it comes to Rose. Do the crime, do the time. And nobody is stripping Rose of his records. He will be the MLB hit leader, inducted or not. His absence from Cooperstown might be an injustice, but that injustice is all his, which is the point.
9
let him in. he deserves it. compared to the leaders of the nation, he is a saint, an angel. get real, baseball, america's game with guys like rose is far better than america with guys like drumpf, collins, paul, mcconnell, and the rest of the real destroyers of the nation.
rose was great. let him in. time served, and well served, too. not like this roger stone crook.
3
Open an annex. Call it “The Hall of Asterisks.” Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Pete Rose, Alex Rodriguez, heck, even Shoeless Joe Jackson undoubtedly belongs there. But don’t whitewash and look the other way at flagrant lying and misconduct. We’re already cheapening and undermining the legitimacy of our most valued institutions that way; see, e.g., the White House; Eddie Gallagher; Joe Arpaio; Rush Limbaugh.... perhaps soon Roger Stone.
1
Reinstate him. Murders are given shorter sentences. No question about that. People guilty of treason against the United States are given shorter sentences.
Reinstate him. It is time. And ya gotta ask yourself. Are we Christian, or just human? Do we forgive? Yes, we certainly should.
3
Actually, people found guilty of treason are executed.
@rlschles No. They are not always. I will be polite and not elaborate.
1
I agree. Let it go now...
1
Pete Rose not only cheated by betting on baseball. He also repeatedly lied about it. First he never bet on baseball. Then he never bet on the Reds. Then he never bet on the Reds to lose. There is however, an abundance of evidence to show all those statements to be false.
Besides that, Pete Rose thought he was bigger than baseball and that the rules didn’t apply to him (much like our current president). Also, do we really want a person that had sex with 15 year old girls (and then defended himself by saying they were of the legal age of consent) in the baseball Hall of Fame? Do you want your legacy to be putting an old, egotistical pervert in Cooperstown?
3
Has he ever said “Yes, I did everything that everyone knows I did and I apologize.” If he make that act of contrition, he would be in the Hall the following year. He is not an innocent man fighting an unjust sentence. For some reason, he cannot accept that fact of life. Until he does, he will not be in the Hall.
I agree. He has paid his dues. More than enough. Let him take his place in the hall of fame. A footnote included.
1
"No steroid user has been barred from the Hall of Fame...and
men who physically abused women have already been inducted
or remain eligible. "
You made a good case, but probably should have stopped before this. As recently as 2017, Pete was taken to court for several allegations of statutory rape, one of which he admitted to (though the woman now claims she was 16).
4
Pete who?
Seriously, baseball is mass entertainment, nothing more. If nobody watched, baseball and football and basketball would not even exist. Denying the MLB Hall of Fame to Pete Rose is no more world-shaking than denying an Oscar to a revered actor.
Who cares? I certainly don't. There are MANY more important issues in this world than Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame. Priorities, people.
5
Yet, here you are.
2
I can't predict today if there will be any Hall of Famers from the cheating Astros team. If I was a voter I'd probably vote against any of them. Pete Rose may inded belong in the Hall of Fame. He played great baseball. It should be done posthumously, however. He gave away his chance for the accolades in his lifetime.
2
So, at some fictional point, maybe Rose owes his bookie money and cannot quite come up with it. The bookie maybe lets it slide in return for some managerial moves that favor the bookie -- a baseball equivalent of point shaving. If ever there is a slippery slope, it is letting gambling slide for its corrupting influence on sports.
2
Level the penalties up for the other types of cheating, but leave Rose's ban in place. He bet on the team he was managing, lied about it to investigators, and then lied to the public about it for years after he was banned. When he finally admitted what he did in public, it was clear that he was only sorry he got caught. If anyone deserves the baseball death penalty, it's him.
Whether he only bet on his own team to win (as he claims) doesn't really matter. And I don't really him anyway. The point of betting is to beat the spread, and if someone is a gambling addict, winning the bet means more than winning the game.
6
We honor players for what they accomplished during their active athletic careers. Pete Rose was one of the greatest hitters of all time and a fierce competitor. He has more than paid the price for his failures as a manager and post-on-the-field career. It's time to recognize his incredible achievements as a player that were totally untainted by stealing signs, taking forbidden muscle enhancing drugs, or cheating.
6
Gerald Ford an appointed president granted a full and unconditioned pardon to Richard Nixon whose crimes should have brought great punishment. Instead Nixon was free to return to private life albeit in shame. Had he been perp walked, jailed and tried in court I don't think we would have a reckless, lawless President today.
Likewise ,if Pete Rose is pardoned it will set a precedent for more baseball misbehavior. Baseball can be better than politics and government.
1
Pandemic? No. World hunger? No. Illiteracy? No.
Pete Rose? Yes, he’s really advanced humanity.
1
There is no greater threat to baseball than players and managers betting on games. When I pay hundreds of dollars to go to a game, I want to know beyond any doubt that the game is not fixed. Turn a blind eye to one known gambler and you invite others to try their hand at breaking the most important rule baseball has. Pete Rose was banned for life and that should be the end of the story. He was a great player, but a horrible citizen of the game.
136
@Mark Cohn there is a greater threat to baseball - the president's example of cronyism, crookery, criminality, and the morality it manifests that is supported by evangelicals, and right wing white supremacists. wake up.
rose did bad. he paid his debt. (
have you been caught? did you pay yours if you were not? if you were caught? you know what you did, mark cohn, though maybe it's hidden from your wife, kids, family, friends. come on. you know.) and should be honored for his game now.
6
@Mark Cohn
Rose never bet against the team he dedicated his efforts to. Betting, for him, was simply a $$$ sign of confidence in his own abilities.
As one of the greatest who ever played the game, it's unlikely that Rose would have resorted to gambling had he been born thirty years later and enjoyed the multimillion-dollar contracts routinely awarded to journeyman players these days.
12
@Tim Clark
That's a new one. He's to be forgiven because he didn't make the big bucks players are making now? I don't think we have to have a tag day for Pete Rose. Even in his day, he made many times more than the average wage earner. More like most gamblers, he probably put himself in financial difficulty because he often lost more than he could afford to.
4
Nonsense. He knew the risk when he took it. He got caught and issued a typical politician apology, one that amounts to 'I'm sorry I got caught.'
A lifetime ban from the sport is appropriate. His stats can be cited at Cooperstown, but in no way does he deserve some mythical rehab of his crookedness.
7
Pete Rose should be in the Hall. He may not have been a nice guy, but that never stopped others from being in the hall. Ty Cobb assaulted a black grounds keeper for having the gall to try and shake his hand and then choked the man's wife when she tried to intervene.
Yet, the Georgia Peach is in the hall.
1
He should join Trump and Limbaugh in the Hall of Shame.
3
No he hasn't. After he passes. No speech on the lawn.
2
I am no sports fan but know that Rose has done his time. The sports world is full of cheaters; why didn't Lance Armstrong go to jail but Marion Jones did?
Why does ARod walk around like he is something to aspire to? And Tom Brady? Yea and he didn't know after catching what a million footballs ...I feel bad for the honest people who what? Came in 14th or 27th but did it honestly - we don't know who they are. That is very sad.
3
I'll wait for Trump to award Pete Rose the Medal of Honor, so until then it's FPR.
2
He also got physical with Bud Harrelson. He’s a bully. I remember the a cartoon: a rose dies but a Bud blooms.
Cheating and lying?
Maybe the next trump cabinet member?
2
If Pete Rose had ever demonstrated even a modicum of contrition, he'd have been inducted on the spot.
2
He's probably placed bets in Vegas on this thing. Both sides.
2
I agree, the Astros ned a harsher punishment.
It all comes down to if he likes trump, our new king will sign an executive order to reinstate him. Rose and trump are two peas in pod
1
The conversation with his bookie was perfect.
Seriously? This is what Caminker and Chemerinsky are doing with their time and their prominence?
1
Who cares about Pete Rose one way or the other?
If the Baseball Hall of Fame is indeed full of lowlifes, then I would agree. Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame.
1
I have no sympathy for him. He committed an infraction and then lied and lied and lied for years, denigrating everyone that held him to account.
3
LAWYERS! Their words sound like "just people talking" but then function more like cages around your brain the way they entrap your mind and divert you from reality and truth. As if they only last week saw the Astros scandal, organized themselves, and began writing briefs and petitions and whatnot, practically overnight because of the apparent injustice of it all. Their dishonesty for their own private agenda, done with a rational smile and pat on the back, is sickening. All through history, these types of guys have been pulling wool over people's eyes as they elbow out of the picture actual fair and righteous people. No, this argument is fake at its foundation and shouldn't be granted a second thought. Send them back to their dirty-minded hole in the ground and seal it up so they can't come out again. I mean, petition away, but what is the purpose of trying to marshal a public movement for your dishonerable cause? It's so morally despicable.
1
Rose was an amazing role model as a player. He seemed to have little natural talent; he was not fast, did not have a great arm. What he had was hustle and an a willingness to work hard; practicing the art of hitting until his hands bled. When I was growing up, it was believed that you could lack natural athletic talent but still succeed by hustle. Today's prima donna players, who barely even run out their outs, could learn something from him. And I thought that according to society gambling is simply another "addiction" that victimizes people? The Hall of Fame is not dedicated to the most morally deserving (many scoundrels and racists such as Ty Cobb are there), but to the best players, and Rose was one of the best.
1
Let's not forget that he AGREED to a lifetime ban in order to keep additional sensitive information under wraps. And, as others have pointed out, he continued to lie about it. Sorry, no backsies.
7
today Pete would be trump's secretary of sport.
1
Don't you two law professors have something serious to work on in these fraught times?
1
Pete should ask trump for reinstatement/pardon/favor. They are both criminals. trump likes criminals. Just ask him.
Did the Donald promise you a cut if you said so?
Is it the Baseball Hall of Fame or the Cheaters Hall of Fame?
If you're going to lionize the greats of the game, I fail to see why you would shove a cheat among the heroes.
I couldn't stand Pete Rose as a player, too much of a egotistic hot dog. And he's probably a real jerk too.
But he should be in the HoF.
1
what about him beating up Bud Harrelson?
1
No,no no and No!
1
No, just no.
1
Pete Rose hasn't done any time. So the headline is a lie. Being part of a private business or hall of fame isn't a "right". It's a privilege. Pete lied throughout and continued to lie, deny and evade.
Punishment is about deterrence. What good is it to have a lifetime ban if it gets lifted? Pete is a bum who got a lot of hits on carpet. And a lying gambler. Go away, and take the cheating Astro's and Red Sox with you.
4
No, no he shouldn't....and why do you care?
2
With all that’s going on, we should care about the fate of a baseball player who couldn’t play by the rules? This is nuts, and NYT devotes an opinion piece to it? Unbelievable.
High time.
I agree! Let Pete Rose back into baseball! Lifetime punishment is not the appropriate consequence for his infraction.
1
Now write a letter for Tonya Harding.
1
Pete Rose was a cheat and a liar. He is not worthy of ever being in any Hall of Fame.
1
So has Hack Wilson.
From college to pro sports---what a cesspool, with gambling being one of many ethical/moral lapses that floats around and around in that pool---And so, where do you set the behavioral standard...gambling, wife-beating, rape, illegal recruiting, drug abuse...
Pardoning him does not put him in the HOF. It puts him on the ballot. From there, it’s up to the voters.
1
First ballot lock.
I am so sorry that you are Pete Rose’s lawyers. He broke Rule Number One, which is posted in every clubhouse in the major leagues.
He is a compulsive gambler and still hasn’t gotten treatment for his illness. If he did that and showed honest remorse, I might feel an ounce of sympathy for him, but he hasn’t.
Plus, I’m a Mets fan.
Bud Harrelson.
‘Nuff said.
3
Cooperstown … go there and be amazed.
Pete Rose is everywhere in that sacred space,
(except the boring and so anticlimactic Hall of Fame).
How much did those other guys pay to get voted in?
How about a "Wing of Corruption" … not just individuals, but ENTIRE ORGANIZATIONS … ongoing now...
Seriously, Pete Rose records in baseball are all over that place. His career is simply stunning.
There is a reason his nickname is: "Charlie Hustle"
Pete broke the rules against betting on teams. He associated with gamblers. He also hastened the death of A. Bartlett Giamatti, a beloved teacher and baseball fan who honored the game. Shakespeare and other worthies advised us to temper justice with mercy. But baseball has already shown mercy to Pete. He was not fined or arrested.Finally, the idea of "halls of fame", "Oscars", or Nobel Prizes are ridiculous. Who cares what a bunch of sportswriters, Hollywood types, or Swedes think. Feelings of accomplishment should be internally generated not by what some external source thinks or says.
1
After reading the writer’s’ arguments I believe we need harsher penalties for the Astros, steroid users and others who have disgraced baseball. I don’t see any benefit to letting Pete Rose in the Hall or into Baseball again. That isn’t a message of fairness that that our country needs.
The ‘At Bats’ records are immaterial to the ethics breaches. Why were Pete’s accomplishments mentioned in a piece about his lying and gambling?
These are poor arguments put forward on behalf of Pete Rose.
3
I've been a Reds fan for almost 50 years. It's posted in all clubhouses that you can't bet on baseball and he did it anyway.
2
Amen. He’s nobody’s sweet heart, but enough is enough. Let him on the ballot.
It took 15 years for Rose to come clean. That was not contrition. He was selling a book and he had no choice in order to become eligible for the hall of fame. Rose's betting was not benign. His betting gave shady illegal gambling operators influence over the games Rose coached. For example, they could have pressured Rose to leave in or leave out certain players during an upcoming game in order to affect the outcome. The days he did not bet would have been a strong signal to his bookies that he was less confident in a win. Bookies, not known for being gentlemanly, may have expressed their displeasure to Rose if the Reds won games he did not bet on. Even if he were not pressured by his bookies, you cannot tell me he did not try harder to win games he bet on than those he did not, to the detriment of a strategy to win as many games as possible overall. And let's not forget what an act of betrayal to his players that would be. So it is completely implausible that Rose did not compromise the games he managed according to whether or how much he bet on a given game. Like the sign stealing scandal, compromising games is the ultimate offense within sports. And to top it off, Rose was a dirt bag. He was credibly accused of statutory rape, he was suspended for a month when managing for shoving an umpire, he was convicted of tax evasion, and it took him 18 years after a paternity suit to admit to fathering a child out of wedlock. He's one of those people you wish would just go away.
4
Who really cares about Pete Rose anyway? Baseball has bigger cheaters now and Rose's time in the baseball sun has passed. It's just a plaque in Cooperstown, said the protagonist of the Dreyfus Affair. Let it go already. Move on.
Are we actually sure that Rose didn't use steroids? His legal problems began when one of the low-lifes living in his house got busted for dealing steroids. This at a time when Sports Illustrated was running stories about his new workout routine- including weight training- that was supposed to help him break Ty Cobb's record. There are people who have been effectively blocked from the Hall of Fame on suspicion of using steroids with far less evidence.
1
I believe that Pete Rose should be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, like all great athletes, but they should just tell his whole story, even if it's on a small plaque at the end of the display.
He remains one of the greats of the game regardless of how he made his exit.
Amen. Given what people get away with today, and given that nobody denies that Rose achieved what he did on the field without performance enhancing drugs, it's crazy to keep him out of the hall of fame.
I would have reinstated him years ago. Gambling is the national pastime baseball used to be. He didn't bet against his club and tank games. Lifetime ban for being a degenerate gambler is wildly disproportionate.
Never point to any professional sport in this country as something that's supposed to teach children about fairness on and off the field. That a lawyer would suggest this is predictable, but it still activates the barf instinct.
It's pretty much understood that cheating is okay in professional sports as long you're not caught or nobody can prove it. In football, for instance, 'Deflategate' went on for a year and a half. National Labs and MIT scientists had to be called in to discuss universal gas laws.
Children would have been better served if Mr. Brady had just owned up to it and apologized instead of hiding his cell phone and standing there mum looking like a fool, not admitting to anything but not denying anything either. What kids learned is how vicious their parents could be as the whole thing devolved into a national slime fest. What a fantastic lesson for kids.
Professional sports is about money, period. Its values are 'pretend' values. Sure, maybe you can get Rose into the Hall of Fame by saying his rule breaking is less egregious than that of others who received little punishment, but he ought to have at least one asterisk next to his name explaining that he may have been a great ball player but he's certainly no hero.
Just leave kids out of your arguments. They deserve more honesty than that.
1
Just last year I would've disagreed with this column, but since not one Astros' player will face any punishment, I say let Rose in.
The Astros cost other teams from potentially winning The World Series, and players such as Clayton Kershaw of the Dodgers, were considered October chokers, when in reality the cheatin' Astros knew which pitches were coming.
All the steroid guys -- Bonds, McGuire, Conseco, A-Rod, may not get into the Hall of Fame, but McGuire has an MLB assistant coaching job and A-Rod is an announcer. They are welcomed by MLB.
Stop the hypocrisy, let Rose back and into the Hall of Fame.
59
@TRS What hypocrisy? In every major league clubhouse is the sign that if you bet on baseball, you're banned. No such sign/law exists for any other trespass. Nine players have been proven to have bet on baseball. All nine are banned. And there's a reason that in over 100 years of MLB only a handful of players have been caught cheating -- the punishment.
11
@Number23 You including Shoeless Joe Jackson in that nine? Because it's pretty clear that he did not in any way participate in throwing those games, and yet was still banned for life.
Let's not pretend that every decision by the MLB bigwigs has always been just or appropriate, and that a ban is deserved simply because it was imposed.
2
Actually the Dodgers lost Game 7 at home, where the Astros were unable to cheat. And they also won Game 4 in Houston, where the Astros were able to cheat. So Kershaw’s October legacy is likely not affected by Houston cheating.
2
I'm saddened by this article as I am by so much of what I see these days. In essence, it argues that since everything has become hopelessly corrupt, we need to accept corruption we would have never tolerated before. Not only that: we must celebrate it with our highest honor, in the name of fairness.
That claim libels honorable people and makes honor even more difficult to sustain than it already is. If it weren't terrible enough, the authors claim to be making this argument in the name of teaching moral lessons to our children. Please: spare them.
1
I think you misread the article. It does not make a virtue of cheating. It says after 30 years, perhaps we should consider mercy.
The great drama that "baseball" aspires to be necessitates both heroes and villans play their assigned rolls. The Black Sox assumed the role in 1919. 70 years later Pete Rose stole their spotlight and ascended to the role.
The steroid era villans were so personally flawed as to be pitiable and therefore not capable of pushing Rose off the stage.
Time will tell if the Astros will become the new villans and offer Rose the redemptive arc that he so craves.
Sadly, it appears "The fault, dear baseball fans, IS in our stars" after all.
4
@RDR Betting on games and stealing signs is not the same transgression. Stealing signs has been part of the game, probably from the beginning, albeit the Astros rose to a more technological and comprehensive level.
Betting on a game when you are the manager and can control more aspects of the outcome, for personal financial gain is, as someone earlier commented, heinous. Immoral. Selfish.
Unfortunately athletes always look for an edge because they are highly competitive individuals, some transgress, but many do not. Until Shoeless Joe Jackson gets in, anyone else who has tarnished the game for personal gain should not.
I've never followed the MLB but always felt this punishment was very excessive for the infraction, especially given the other examples the authors cite (which were clearly intended to cheat). I always suspected a ulterior, vindictive motive.
1
It seems we are living in the golden age of asterisks—from presidential elections to World Series winners to Supreme Court justices to colleges built by slaves. All those little superscript stars are actually a good thing. Whether they come belatedly or immediately they signal the complexity of history. They shine a light on the past and illuminate its always checkered truth. So let him in and tell it like it is. The good, the bad and the ugly. There are already racists and drug users in the Hall. So there must be room for the best hitter of all time, who had a gambling problem.
30
After MLB banned Pete, I vowed to never watch another ballgame. Pete was/is the best. He paid his dues. Let Pete back in.
1
In an era of vindictiveness and division, we should all remember forgiveness. Pete Rose has paid the price for his poor judgement- and that’s what it was. His actions never hurt any individual or impacted the integrity of the game. He has served his sentence. Let’s forgive before it’s too late.
2
He should have been impeached and promptly acquitted. Following that, he should have resumed managing the team. Isn't that they way things are done nowadays?
5
Pete Rose should remain banned permanently, period.
Evidence showed that Rose only bet on his teams on some nights, but not every night. Meaning, Rose was manipulating the roster over the course of several games, especially the pitching staff, in order to best increase his chances of winning games that he had money, and likewise manipulated the game roster nights that he did not have money bet on to set up for the games he was going to bet on. He saved his best pitchers and especially relief pitchers to use on nights where he had bet on his team.
Bottomline, Pete Rose's gambling most definitely altered the course of games when you look at how he managed his roster over the course of several games where he bet on some games, but not others.
In effect, Rose is like a corporate executive that got caught inside trading his own companies stock, and in baseball that means being banned forever.
11
@SparkyTheWonderPup
Did he really stiff his bookies too? That would be even worse.
I’ll say what I’ve always said...Pete can get in line behind Shoeless Joe. Joe didn’t bet on the game, and 100 years later, he’s still not in the HOF. So take a number, Pete.
9
As a former resident of Cincinnati, I think precisely because Pete Rose was one of the greatest players in the history of baseball and that so many people had looked up to him that he merited a lifetime ban for ruining the integrity of the game...
11
Pete Rose repeatedly lied about betting on baseball of any kind. When Rose realized that lie wasn't going to do get him reinstated, Rose confess, he did gamble as the Reds Manager but always to win.
If you think Rose gambling addiction would have stopped him from stooping as low to bet against the Reds or making lineup changes to either win or recover his loses, is naive.
As always, the rule of punishment always shifts depending on whose being punishment. In the US, the lying season is 24/7.
Maybe Rose will become a motivational speaker or politician.
4
He should be banned from baseball and the Hall of Fame for life as should any other player/manager that does the same.
2
Baseball has many bigger issues to deal with than forgiving Pete Rose. So forgive every other player who cheated in some form too.
Actions have consequences!
May as well reinstate him. His crime was during a time when that sort of thing was illegal and unethical, a time when we all believed that America was a good and lawful place, a time when we were proud of our country. But now, here in the Trump era, anything goes. We certainly don't want to set up a double standard here, do we.
11
Rose deserves to be reinstated. He has been banned for 31 years for infractions that are not half as serious as those committed by others that are in the Hall of Fame. People that used steroids cheated other players, the teams, the owners, and baseball itself but are allowed in baseball and the Hall of Fame.
What the Astros did changed baseball dramatically for the last number of years and even cost people their jobs. The Commissioner needs to reopen that investigation, fine those players and suspend them.
Rose should be in the Hall of Fame!!!
6
I think you two have it backwards. It's not that Rose should be reinstated; it's that the Astros should have their World Series championship voided.
64
@Incontinental Exactly. Rose got what he deserved. The Astros players have not.
3
It's acceptable to use performance enhancing drugs while playing baseball, but betting on one's own team to win resulted in being banned from baseball and the HOF for life.
So double-standard orientated.
2
Pete Rose is his own worst enemy. He had a shot at redemption a couple of years ago, but revelations about an admitted sexual relationship with an underage girl effectively put an abrupt end to his return to polite society. I suspect they'll let him in the Hall of Fame one day, but only after he is dead and buried. And that will be entirely as it should be. Rose has done nothing to justify bestowing such an honor upon him during his lifetime.
15
Not a chance. He bet on games that he was managing.
15
Gambling is forbidden for MLB players and subject to severe consequences. Rose knew this. He never really acknowledged what he did. He also is well-known to be a jerk. This is not a legal case: The professors should stick to their knitting.
19
NEVER!
13
Baseball has a history of being extremely sensitive to the issue of gambling since the Black Sox scandal (100 years ago). Pete Rose did something wrong and he know it when he did it. I don’t think that the fact that he was a gamboling addict is a good excuse. I originally agreed with Rose’s punishment, but IMHO 20 years was enough. At this point the commissioner is undermining the credibility of the Hall of Fame. If you exclude one of the top 10 players of all time then how can the Hall claim to be accurately reflecting the sport’s greats. He should be readmitted and simultaneously inducted. Let the bronze plaque read, “After a prolonged suspension from baseball, the greatest hitter of all time entered the Hall of Fame.” That would be both truthful and fair. It would paper over neither his wrong doing and punishment nor his greatness.
2
The argument of unequal punishment is very powerful.
Athletes in baseball and other sports have had smaller punishments for greater crimes.
And if we keep men out of the Hall of Fame for their off-field conduct, no one will be left.
Reinstate Pete with full acknowledgment that he broke the rules, was suspended, and his accomplishments are worthy of recognition.
1
You’re not serious about this, are you?
10
MLB needs reopen its investigation of Astros based on the newly disclosed evidence of management's further abuses of technology to cheat, including their practice of the "Dark Arts" to leverage their cheating, and impose the punishment deserved by the Astros -- including top management and the organization itself. top/down cleaning out of management -- a life-time bar, that includes the ops persons identified in the WSJ article, and a forced sale for the owner, is the remedy to clean the stables. anything less is hypocrisy. The Dodgers to their credit don't want the 2 WS titles they were, in reality, cheated out of; Darvish and Kershaw -- and others in Yankees, Dodgers, A's organizations, have the same causes of action for damages and unfair business practices against the Astros. the wrongdoers are all rich so hit the club(s) (Astros, BoSox) where it counts, in the pocketbook.
4
Agree with others here: There is a difference in kind between cheating for advantage and gambling on your own games. A fundamental premise of watching any contest, including sports, is that both sides are trying to win. If either side is breaking the rules for advantage, they are still trying to win.
If I know gambling is widespread in the sport, then I as a fan have no idea what my team is trying to do. Win? Lose? Win by 3 or fewer runs? Who placed the bet? The manager, the owner, the players? The whole thing is a farce. Steroids and sign stealing taint the game, gambling could destroy it. Hence gambling being the offense with a clear, bright line penalty: lifetime ban, no exception.
3
If Pete Rose does not deserve to be in baseball's Hall of Fame, then just rename it as the Hall of Statistical Denial.
4
Pete Rose bet on baseball games that he was involved in.
Anything you say after that is irrelevant.
152
@JW
"Pete Rose was banned from baseball in 1989 for betting on baseball games, including on his team, the Cincinnati Reds, to win. No one has ever claimed that Rose’s misconduct was intended to gain a competitive advantage over other teams or had the slightest effect on the outcomes of any games."
16
@JW
I can understand how, if you are a coach or player, betting that the opposing team will win could corrupt the game because you would have a perverse incentive to compete less earnestly. But if you are betting in favor of your own team, how does that corrupt the game? We want each side to be maximally motivated to win, and such a bet, it seems to me, would only reinforce that motivation. Am I missing something here?
9
@Mark
Yes. You are missing that Rose only bet on certain games, like a CEO of a company that has important insider information and decides to buy or sell his company's stock. That's a felony and we send those people to prison and we ban them for life from being employed in certain insider corporate positions for life.
18
No, he shouldn't be reinstated - why should he? He should remain as an example of the consequences of a serious violation of the rules. His reinstatement would signal to others that one can get away with a violation. Baseball should establish a Hall of Shame for Rose and the steroid cheaters like Clemens, Bonds, Mcgwire and A-roid.
3
Absolutely not.
Pete Rose killed Bart Giamatti; the stress of this abominable scandal killed him.
Not now.
Not ever.
Never.
It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Infamy
13
Pete Rose was a gambler.
Pete Rose liked to bet.
What did he ever cheat on or about, exactly?
His lifetime punishment sounds more and more like a personal grudge than anything else.
5
@Marge Keller You cant bet on your own team.
A convincing argument but one could also make an argument that the continued degradation of sports ethics have been in reaction to the light punishments that cheaters have been able to get away with in the past. Any kindergarten teacher will tell you that when you reward had behavior, had behavior will follow. You can increase the punishment for the sign stealers but using it as a reason to forgive Rose is using pretzel logic to set a poor precedence. Like letting Trump off the hook for bribery because Clinton wasn't impeached for lying about a consensual sex act.
5
Enough already. Let the man back into the game. Immediately.
4
I agree he should be made eligible for the HOF. No evidence has ever been produced that he bet AGAINST his team, an act that would suggest fixing and thus be deserving of a lifetime ban. He has done enough penance for his arrogance, has apologized and has been publicly shamed. Put him in the Hall and tell the whole story on his plaque.
4
If he bet on his team one day and didn’t the next, the implicit message is that he thought they would lose.
1
In every clubhouse in the minors and majors it states that anyone caught gambling on baseball will be banned from the sport!Mr Rose was given opportunities as is stated in a Great and glorious game.He was sent to a rehab in Pittsburgh(Rabbi Twerksky),that with the completion of his stay he would be brought back into the sport.To Mr.Giammati’s chagrin Pete Rose walked out.Mr.Rose bet on his team only to win,so we are to believe,Mr.Rose who has a gambling disease that the Reds were to go 162 and 0.Since then we have learned that he bet on his team as a player.Mr Rose was not a child nor is he now.Steroids and electronic stealing of signs are avenues of cheating to win,not to profit personally.Im no apologist for any of these serious indiscretions!When Penn State and the Sandusky affair broke the best that we could muster up was Penn State was not allowed to participate in a bowl game.Childrens lives were and still are ruined and the best arguments from the apologists were that we were hurting the players.Those players could have played football anywhere!That program should have been SHUT DOWN!Ohio State,Michigan State are examples of apologists and money that usurp ethics and morals.If Pete Rose is allowed back in Baseball we know where this story ends!
5
@Blue Collar 30 Plus - "Steroids and electronic stealing of signs are avenues of cheating to win,not to profit personally."
That sure looks like an oxymoron to me.
@Blue Collar 30 Plus All the cheaters in Houston did benefit personally with 400K bonus money. Claw it back and take away the titles from them and the Red Sox.
Absolutely not. For one, everyone in baseball knows that gambling on games is a huge no. He did it repeatedly, and he may have even bet against his team. Furthermore, rule 21(d) specifically states that anyone in baseball who gambles on the game is "permanently ineligible." So we have a clear. and specific punishment for a clear and specific transgression. While the Astros had a clear and specific transgresssion (don't get me wrong: I'm mad at the Astros for tainting the game), there is no rule that specifically states a punishment for electronic sign stealing.
Also, I disagree with the authors that Rose has learned his lesson. Rose only complains about his punishment because he wants to get into Cooperstown before he dies. If he were sincere, we'd have seen him get involved with a gambling addiction recovery group.
Anyways, this is a good article from a few years ago about Rose: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/378866/
8
Baseball sign stealing scandals threaten to disqualify several teams accolades from the last two years. I think Rose’ violations were of a lesser degree yet he is bent made some kind of example because of the gambling and betting involved. Meanwhile over in DC/VA/MD the Redskins NFL owner Dan Snyder is pursuing legal permission to open up sports betting operations.
Pete Rose has paid his penalty. Let professional sports focus on today’s violators of sports ethics.
3
Many feel Rose`s should be banished for betting on baseball to save the integrity of the game must not have been watching the game the last thirty years, from steroids to the latest scandal Rose time has come to be reinstated.
4
Rose's transgressions are minor compared to the current CHEATING scandal! How is what the Astros did not fixing games? We'll never know the real outcomes of all those games they cheated in.
But somehow today's massive scandal is somehow OK, but Rose should be banned for life? The Astros should receive the so-called "death penalty" that can be done in the NCAA: the team should be banned for at least of couple of years from playing. Anything less is a joke.
5
@MrDeepState - The logic of your argument here (and lots of other commenters who are largely arguing same) is a bit tortured and definitely dishonorable. We should un-punish or lessen a punishment because other/current punishments are not severe enough or even nonexistent? That feels like a lazy, sort of corrupt way to go about it. If there doesn't seem to be nearly enough importance placed on integrity (and morality and lawfulness for that matter) when imposing punishments on greater infractions - or neglecting to do so; then we should just re-do or undo punishments (that were, in fact, JUST) instead of being honorable, recognizing and speaking out against this lack of propriety (even if, sadly, it might not change anything)
2
Baseball’s Hall of Fame is made up of nothing but a double standard, subjective group of guys who either like you or they don’t. As a matter of fact, the “standards” for getting in are totally arbitrary, if not personal.
While “Pete Rose was banned from baseball in 1989 for betting on baseball games, including on his team, the Cincinnati Reds, to win. . . no one has ever claimed that Rose’s misconduct was intended to gain a competitive advantage over other teams or had the slightest effect on the outcomes of any games. . . no steroid user has been barred from the Hall of Fame . . . the Hall of Fame remains open to whomever the voters deem the greats of the game.”
Even death row inmates receive clemency from time to time, so why can’t some amount of humanity be extended to Pete Rose? He bet on baseball games, even his own team TO WIN for crying out loud. He did not bet AGAINST them. His actions are hardly an excuse to banish him from baseball for life.
I never liked nor appreciated Pete Rose in my youth. But the older I get, the more I feel he has been victimized by the members of the Hall of Fame. The punishment does NOT fit his actions. Enough with such vindictiveness and cruelty.
6
@Marge Keller Well, don't go to baseball games then. It's a private business. They can set whatever rules they want.
1
@Marge Keller, life's a bit unfair at times. Recall Mick Mulvaney's advice: "Get used to it."
The HoF can do quite well without Pete Rose in it, so the heck with his and his supporters wishes regarding this topic.
1
Pete Rose was, and is, a big time jerk who committed an egregious act and like many in all walks of life has never admitted his wrong doing. His punishment is debatable given the abuses of A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds, McGuire and Sousa. Should he be in the Hall? If character, integrity and morality are the criteria, probably not; for his baseball accomplishments, probably but only with a giant asterisk next to his name.
6
He should not be exonerated. What is going on? In the age of Trump does all misconduct by men go unpunished or be absolved? Absolutely unconscionable.
11
The authors make a stronger case for greater punishment for the Astros than leniency for Pete Rose.
173
@MGM From what I have read, the Astros' 2017 title should be revoked.
7
Pete Rose was born too soon -- these days, it's almost trivial to anonymously buy some cryptocurrency, and then anonymously place a bet at any of various betting sites.
In fact, I have no doubt that out of thousands of professional athletes, at least a few are doing just that as we speak.
2
Here’s a story worth an in-depth NYT investigation: the Wild Wild West of crypto, gambling and how they exist outside of any law, pretty much anywhere.
2
Yes, it is amazing seeing the record sheets and Pete Rose's name at the very top of the all time hits list. Players 2 through 54 on that list are either in the Hall of Fame or will undoubtedly be in the Hall of Fame when eligible. The number one player is not. It's just crazy at this point. I also think the careers of steroid users or PED users should be scrutinized more closely. MLB reaped huge financial rewards from the careers of people like Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, and many more. Even when these players didn't take those drugs, their careers were good enough to get them into the Hall of Fame (especially Bonds).
4
I think one thing is for certain: make him eligible and let the voters decide.
They have the final say, anyway.
2
even though I'll always detest the football-style slide in which he took-out Ray Fosse (and effectively ended his career) I concur with the authors that Rose's punishment no longer "fits the crime"
1
The closing paragraph equates baseball with an exalted role in teaching civics to young people. However, in preceding paragraphs the writers argue that anabolic steroid use not related to Rose’s actions should somehow reinstate Rose.
Pete, get some new ones and for yourself give it up, you had your day and then whacked yourself
3
The punishment has been served. Additionally, there should be no asterisk alongside his name in Cooperstown. His accomplishments speak for themselves and required true grit to achieve.
4
Sorry, guys. The disparity in punishment as between Mr. Rose for betting on the game and the Houston Astros for cheating points not to unfairness to Mr. Rose; instead, it reflects shame upon MLB for not stripping the Astros of the 2017 World Series championship. Shame, MLB. When granted the opportunity to do right and attract admiration for doing so, you dropped the ball. I can score that: EMLB.
12
The writers present no evidence that "Rose has expressed remorse for his actions." He denied all charges for decades, then only when he was writing a new book did he admit to gambling. Maybe the sentence was too harsh, but to claim that he's remorseful isn't an argument for letting him back in.
8
@David Agreed. And Rose accepted the lifetime ban, probably because the investigation into his gambling and betting unearthed more bad behavior, that he wanted to conceal further.
8
@Comet - Wow!, sure wouldn't want you on a jury trying me for one thing and you convicting me because you think i probably did something else.
A "fair" punishment is also one that is imposed after clear notice and adequate process. If a person knows the penalty for murder is life in prison and still commits murder, and that offense is proven in accordance with proper process, then the penalty is fair. The authors evade this understanding of "fairness" in favor of one that aids their case.
That said, I think Rose belongs in the Hall because he was a great player and the punishment he has endured has been sufficient. Nothing wrong with the exercise of grace. We all need it now and again.
2
First, let me say I am not a Pete Rose fan. Second, let me say: Amen! I was born and raised in Cooperstown and have had a front row seat to the HOF and its struggle with PEDs. If baseball is America’s truly pastime, it should aspire to our most basic principle of fairness: equal justice under the law. Pete Rose’s lifetime ban is not only incongruous with any other punishment, it’s orders of magnitude more severe. In retrospect, it’s clear that not only was it disproportionate, but it failed to accomplish its goal of making an example of Mr. Rose and deterring unethical behavior from players and potential inductees. In our era of polarization, purity tests, and unequivocating judgement, it would be a tremendous display of healing to right this wrong. Pardon Pete Rose and put that man in the Hall. More than perhaps any other player, he has earned it.
3
You can juice, you can steal signs...but you can't gamble on the game. Ever. All else can be forgiven as gamesmanship, as doing whatever you can to win and secure a big payday.
Saw Rose play countless times in Pittsburgh. Guy was--like Sidney Crosby has been desribed--a serial winner. But a manager who gambles on games can NEVER be let back into the game, nor can anyone IN the game who gambles ON the game.
If you let Rose back in, there is no use in watching MLB ever again.
5
His ‘time’ should never end. He violated one of the most sacred rules- players don’t bet on the outcome of their games. It’s simple.
25
He was a childhood idol, and his baseball stats can't be taken away from, but forgiveness without repentance is cheap grace.
He was a great ball-player, but not a good man.
10
Pete Rose gambling is akin to a judge who was found to accept a bribe in one case. Suddenly, all of his cases are suspect, and faith in every verdict he rendered undermined. How do we actually know Rose never bet on the Reds to lose??? We plainly do not. He lied about the events for 25 years and then changed his tune, but we obviously do not know that he is telling the whole truth now. Rose appears as a commentator at times on Fox Sports, goes to card shows, is free to profit on his name, and his career was not cut short in any way. No owner with a grip on his sanity would hire Rose to manage a team. The only way the "ban" really affects Rose is keeping him out of the Hall of Fame, which is something MLB created as a celebration of the game for the fans' enjoyment. It's a pretty minor thing, his whole life considered, to be kept out of it. Reversing his ban would be a mistake. (I think there are also questions about the message it would send in today's world, where anyone can place a bet at any time from one's pocket).
12
@Michael - "How do we actually know Rose never bet on the Reds to lose??? We plainly do not."
What happened to innocent before proven guilty?
If the authors contend that Pete Rose should be in the Hall after all of his transgressions, legal and otherwise, why are they not including Joe Jackson in their argument? Jackson was suspended from baseball for allegedly cheating in the 1919 World Series.
In that series, he had 12 hits - a record that stood until 1964, and hit .375, the highest average on both teams. He committed no errors. Even a casual baseball fan would understand that a performance like that couldn't be construed as an attempt to throw the series. Yet Jackson remains out of the Hall.
Perhaps the authors don't think Jackson's lifetime numbers warrant his induction in the Hall. From 1908 to 1920, his bating average was .356 and he averaged just under 100 RBI per season - with mostly bad teams. There are players in the Hall that don't come close to those numbers.
What makes Pete Rose, a man who repeatedly broke professional baseball rules and refuses to apologize, so special that he deserves to be inducted and Joe Jackson doesn't? It would seem the authors' argument about fair treatment for Rose isn't as strong as the case for Jackson.
19
@Barry Blackburn - Jackson threw the games, caused his team to lose. There's no evidence whatsoever rose ever bet against his own teams, and i for one disbelieve he would until someone shows me irrefutable proof he did. He was all about winning baseball, whatever it took, not losing.
This is simple: the issue is not that Pete Rose has been over-punished; it’s that others (including Astros players) have been under-punished.
105
I'm 71 years old. I still remember what Rose did to Harrelson. Unfortunately, that was part of the game back then. But Rose's gambling was not part of the game and was worse than those who use sterioids to improve performance and electronic devices to steal signs; i.e., cheating to gain an edge to WIN. Betting is not intended to gain an edge for a team. To the contrary, at its worst it casts doubt as to whether a manager or player is "throwing" a game. In betting on the Reds to win, who is to say that Rose made moves that were riskier or more conservative than those he would have taken had he not bet on those games. When added to this his blatant denials, his banishment is warranted.
40
@RMW - Sorry man (i presume), can't agree to it being any worse. and i was a queens resident and mets fan from their start, a broken hearted dodger fan before. Brooklyn doders, there's really no other true kind. Anyway, enhancing performance is why winning horses get disqualified from the winners' circle and maybe the same should be for any baseball team that's discovered to have players who enhance. Disqualification from postseason appearance. Then maybe you'll get a real crackdown on the practice.
But that's an aside. Point is cheating to win, cheating to lose, both can affect game outcomes but only cheating to win, enhancements that improve performance, are for sures. Gambling, that's a maybe. Maybe he bet against himself, maybe he didn't. Personally, i can't see rose betting against himself and having to dial it down. Not with that personality. Can you? There's no proof he ever did.
For me it's past time to give him the recognition his play deserves.
@RBud Harrelson had the best comment on the tussle with Rose: "I knew had him [Rose] when I stuck my ear between his teeth." Doubtless, Rose was too dull witted to understand Bud's comment.
2
The fact that this specious argument is the best argument that one of the greatest constitutional lawyers in the country could come up with to support reversing Rose's lifetime ban, kinda tells you all you need to know about the merits of reversing Rose's lifetime ban.
Come on, Mr. Chemerinsky, you're better than this.
22
Yeah let’s bring Pete and Barry and Alex and all the Astros back! And Rog Stone and Billy Barr and Donnie Trump too. They’ve all suffered enough. Good guys all!
2
"No one has ever claimed that Rose’s misconduct was intended to gain a competitive advantage over other teams or had the slightest effect on the outcomes of any games."
If that's something the writers really believe, then they're wholly unqualified to defend Rose or anyone else. Every time Rose bet on the Reds, he, in effect, bet against them in other games. Ask Mario Soto, whose arm Rose almost certainly ruined, if Rose's actions had any effect. Ask relievers who sat unused in games that Rose didn't bet on, so that they could be available for the ones he did.
Rose has no business in the Hall.
137
@Bob Smith
I agree. It's apparent from their argument that the law professors do not understand the game of baseball or the decisions that the manager must make. It's apparent that Rose made decisions that helped his chance of winning bets and which also hurt his team in the long run.
9
Aw heck, go ahead. After all our previous rock of fairness and justice, the DOJ, has been made a mockery by Barr and his lack of morals.
And the pro teams cheating with sign stealing and communicating them to the batters was a wink and smile and too bad you got caught.
If the punishment was to influence future players, then it seems that this one has been only partially beneficial to that end.
On the other hand, I would rather see the reverse be true: A specific set of punishments which, upon admission of guilt or proof, would be set out for anyone who damaged the reputation and spirit of the sport. Cheaters, be gone. And the punishment heavy enough that those knowingly thumbing their noses at the rules (having been given them at the outset) would never play again, no matter how 'great' they are.
6
I can understand keeping the lifetime ban from baseball. But not having him in the Hall of Fame just makes the Hall of Fame look asinine. It's the Baseball Hall of Fame, not Good Person Hall of Fame.
100
@Terremotito having visited the Hall of Fame, I can personally testify to the fact that Pete Rose has his name prominently displayed on plaques representing his record breaking achievements. He just doesn’t have a plaque with his likeness in “the” hall of Fame room.
9
It's a Hall of Fame, not Infamy.
10
If you go to the HOF, his name is everywhere. He is on the top of many lists. He should not be honored with the speech, though. After he's gone.
5
It’s a terrible shame that the absolutely greatest baseball player ever should be denied inclusion in the sport he brought so much glory.
He didn’t cheat, use drugs, he supported his team mates and he produced wicked numbers.
For god sake, if Ty Cobb and Joe Damagio are there, then personal qualities aren’t an issue.
Do the right thing damnit.
15
@Robert
Agreed... but... Rose and MANY other players from the 70's commonly used "greenies" or amphetamines to bounce back from long travel days to get up for games.
But that isn't something anyone has ever been punished for nor should it be part of this decision... it's just a point of fact... he did use speed.
@Robert The Braves' Hank Aaron is in the Hall (to me the "absolutely greatest baseball player ever" who "didn't cheat, use drugs...supported his team mates and...produced wicked numbers" evokes him, not Rose, and I would thing to any Atlantan).
2
Wait. What sort of personal issues did DiMaggio have that puts him in the same sentence as Ty Cobb? Really? Classiest act in baseball and after. Married to the most beautiful woman for a short time too. You should be so lucky.
1
He'll have to go back on the ball field and earn his way in. His previous performances came with an asterisk.
3
This argument makes a great case for throwing the book at the Astros and juiced athletes, as well as those who profited. A poor job on those two scandals doesn’t necessitate reinstating Rose.
I’d like to hear more about him and gambling, then and now, before revisiting his case. With legalized gambling, isn’t now the time to set a bright line for conduct?
3
If they were getting paid, it might be understandable that these two distinguished lawyers were advocating for a character like Pete Rose, who among his lesser transgressions is an unrepentant and aggressive liar. But to do this pro bono suggests that they actually believe the nonsense they are promoting. The failure of MLB to properly sanction other unsavory behavior should not result in clemency for one of the few miscreants who were appropriately punished.
17
MLB Rule 21 "Misconduct" Section (d) "Gambling" Paragraph (2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible.
He ignored the rule, bet on his own team and lied about it so he only has himself to blame. Can't feel sorry for him.
66
No. You are attempting to lower the bar for public figures. It's already too low already. Soon we will be nothing but a kleptocratic autocracy like the Russians and Chinese, if this keeps up.
3
“A 31-year ban for betting on his own team to win, for a 78-year-old man, is enough.”
4
“ No one has ever claimed that Rose’s misconduct was intended to gain a competitive advantage over other teams or had the slightest effect on the outcomes of any games.”
No one ever claimed this, because it was unnecessary to make that claim. Do we know whether he used relief pitchers or chose not to use them based on his gambling habits?
Played ballplayers who might have needed a day of rest, or sat down others?
I can’t help believe this article is no coincidence, That it is meant to appear alongside President Trump’s recent similar call. The president doesn’t think that rules should apply to his friends.
Admitting him would just be another sign, albeit a small one, of the moral decay rotting our country.
36
@Marc Kagan - "That it is meant to appear alongside President Trump’s recent similar call."
Oh, please. I'm as much anti-trump as anyone, and more than most. First when he and i were kids, me 12, him 11, and i fired him. In baseball by coincidence. But to equate rose and an all around candidate for hell vs heaven, not even close. Don't know your age but are you at all acquainted with rose's personality back then? I presume it hasn't changed much since so maybe today's is a good indication, maybe not.
In the case of trump, all the bragging about a good performance in the job is just that, bragging. The stats reflect that. Rose, real. His stats reflect that.
After serving so long a jail sentence the man deserves what he earned. And just look at what mcclain got for his gambling involvement. A 3 month suspension. Here. As mcclain got piqued by dreesen maybe you'll get piqued by me. From wiki "Sports Illustrated cited sources who alleged that the foot injury suffered by McLain late in 1967 was caused by an organized crime figure who stomped on McLain's foot as punishment for failing to pay off on a lost bet.[2] Early in his career, McLain's interest in betting on horses was piqued by Chuck Dressen, one of his first managers...McLain was suspended indefinitely by baseball commissioner Bowie Kuhn; the suspension was then set for the first three months of the 1970 season."
Ciao
Yes! Absolutely, Pete Rose should be reinstated. The ban on gambling was imposed in 1919 to prevent a certain outcome, namely cheating and fixing games, not the gambling per se. In the same way, a ban on drunk driving is there to prevent a certain outcome—negligent killing and property damage. The drunk driving itself is not the issue. If you drive drunk and kill someone, you should be punished accordingly, with the maximum penalty. But should all DUIs be punished with twenty years in prison? If you engage in the forbidden behavior, but it doesn't result in the forbidden outcome, you should receive some penalty, but not the maximum penalty.
That's essentially what Pete Rose received. If he had been caught cheating (like, say, the steroid users), then maybe a lifetime ban would be appropriate. But Rose was only caught gambling. He did not cheat, nor was he ever accused of it. His infraction should be punished, but not with the maximum penalty. He should have gotten the equivalent of a DUI ticket, maybe a suspended license. Banned for thirty years is punishment enough. He has more than atoned for his transgression.
42
@Marcus
Check out rule 21(d) from the MLB. Anyone betting on a game they had some involvement in is "permanently ineligible." In other words, there is no minimum or maximum punishment for gambling on baseball; there is one punishment, and Rose received it.
9
@Marcus Yes, all DUI's should receive the same sentence. If you DUI and kill someone you will be charged with both DUI and manslaughter.
DUI's is a crime specifically because it is recognized that drunk driving itself IS an issue. It is what creates the circumstances that cause far more severe harm.
Similarly betting on games is what creates the circumstances for players to throw games and behave badly.
3
@Steve The critical distinction here is between betting on one's own team to win versus betting on it to lose.
While the former technically violates the rule against betting, it is only the latter that involves the abuse that is the reason for the anti-betting rule. So while some punishment might be proper for Rose's technical (but not moral) violation, his punishment outrageously exceeds his crime.
2
Both Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose, were truly exceptional players and as such I believe they do belong somehow in the HOF. Perhaps their plaques should be displayed separately and their entire stories should be told so that all who visit the Hall can understand that baseball, like life, is imperfect. The problem right now is that the HOF is not a Museum of the History of Baseball, rather it is the enshrinement of Baseball Mythology. Perhaps it is time to reconsider this approach.
4
"We look to sports not only for entertainment but also for how we talk to our children about fairness on and off the field. This is the role and responsibility of baseball that matters most."
The authors' assertion about the most important "role and responsibility of [professional] baseball" missed the plate. What constitutes "fairness" in professional, especially highly compensated, sports should not be compared with fairness in truly non-compensated sports to which most of our children have access.
The "rules" in professional baseball, both written and unwritten (e.g. stealing signs is okay without using real time recordings and computers), have been tailored to support profit-making businesses.
Youth sports, at least those in which the kids are not engaged in realistic opportunities for subsidized college, operate by very, very different "rules."
I recommend not relying on professional baseball as the source, or even a great source about "about fairness on and off the field." At best, age-appropriate discussions about why grown-ups have imposed different "rules" for the pro's and the amateurs can be constructive.
In any event, Pete Rose's statistics speak for themselves. Until professional baseball lifts the ban on participant betting, Pete's records can be memorialized in the Hall, with a description that he is not a member because he bet.
1
“As the passage of time brings new examples of misconduct in baseball and new penalties, the comparative fairness of old penalties can change.”
Great argument— two wrongs make a right. This is silly, simplistic and illogical.
Rose has done nothing to help his cause. If he apologized and became a spokesman for GA or something like that he’d be in the Hall of Fame today.
A lifetime ban is extreme. He earned his lifetime ban.
Are the authors really saying that no matter what, someone should always be excused for their transgressions?
29
Sorry, he bet as a player and a Manager and lied about it for years. I saw him in Las Vegas, signing autographs at a sports memorabilia shop 3 years ago, and he was still denying to me that he did anything wrong.
Sorry Pete, I loved watching you play and you were one of my baseball heroes in my youth. But the truth is you tainted the game and your reputation permanently. And you did it to yourself. Your behavior stands alone.
65
@jbbennington
Gambling is an addiction. Addicts lie.
If Baseball treated gambling like an addiction and sought to reform players and suspend them to give them more chances... like say Darryl Strawberry got over and over for cocaine use... then we'd be talking about an equal playing field.
This argument is based on a false premise. The most similar point of comparison I can come up with is the college admissions scandal of last year - the false premise that is such a belabored point is that "fairness" was ever on the table.
Elite college admissions have never been fair, and no one who has anything to do with them can possibly claim they are based on the most cursory of glances at the qualifications of underachieving children of high value donors. The argument is about defrauding a system - irrespective of whether that system was ever fair to begin with. Professional baseball is as much a closed system as is the admissions game at elite schools - you may appeal all you like to vague concepts like sanctity of sport and the purity of the all-American pastime, but this is a private club with its own nonsensical rules and your need to impress virtue ethics on it when your piece repeatedly cites a bigoted and corrupt history at its heart is mostly commentary on your own need to preserve the myths of childhood.
Lord knows the man who wrote *the* book on Constitutional Law should have better things to do with his time than polish his rose-tinted lenses.
8
Rose crossed a line, and can't return.
He betrayed baseball in every possible way.
37
Pete Rose and Joe Jackson make up the exclusive club of players who had unquestionable qualifications for being elected to the Hall of Fame, yet remain excluded for having the misfortune of playing in an era when rules mattered. Let's call that era the 20th century.
9
Pete Rose not only bet on games he was in, he bet against his own team. No. He can never be eligible.
30
@SKJarvis
False! Pete never bet against the Reds. Dodd report makes this clear.
Stop repeating falsehoods.
1
@Citizen
Maybe claim can't be made as a certainty but cannot be certain it wasn't true either as Rose continually lied.
This is not a prison sentence; at the time the ban was put in place, those adjudicating his case were well aware of the fact that he would be banned still when he was 78 or 98 because that's what a lifetime ban means. It's not the same as a prison sentence where the physical infirmity of the prisoner needs to be taken into account. If the ban is lifted than what does a lifetime ban mean?
12
The question is not whether one likes or dislikes Rose or cares about baseball. The question is why do it? How would this removal of a lifetime ban encourage baseball players and their fans to be good sportsmen? Sure its good for Pete Rose but the lawyers involved have not discussed in any way how this is good for baseball. What actions has Pete Rose taken to improve baseball that would earn an overturn of the ruling?
11
Pete Rose received a lifetime ban from baseball, not only for betting on baseball, but consistently lying about his gambling and covering up his crimes. It took him years to admit that he bet on baseball, years longer to admit that his bets involved the Reds, and he has not been forthcoming regarding the information that he was providing to bookies or other gamblers that may have had a direct influence over the games that he managed. The ban on gambling and subsequent penalties was and is well known to everyone in baseball.
83
Like everyone else who grew up playing ball, my dad compared everything I did to Charlie hustle.
But this argument is specious. First of all, Rose has not ever really expressed the true contrition you claim he has. Second of all, saying Rose belongs in the hall because lot of other people did steroids is not a serious argument. A great many great players who were suspected of PEDs use are not in the hall, and likely won’t ever be. Second of all, what they did never called into question the integrity of actual competition. They were cheating to win (and achieve individual accolades). With rose, he was actively betting against himself and his teams.
And as for the sign stealers, Beltran has been fired for the Mets, and even with his contrition, I doubt he’ll be voted into the hall.
Pete rose doesn’t get into the hall of fame just because somebody he knows is friends with Trump.
32
Until just recently, I loved Jose Altuve (six-time MLB All-Star, AL MVP, four-time Silver Slugger award, etc.). But if Pete Rose remains banned from the Hall, Altuve must be banned too (obviously).
4
Betting on baseball is the original sin (at least since 1919). He did what he did with full knowledge of the risks. You can make your argument for Rose only after every last one the Black Sox players gets their due, and if that isn't forthcoming, then Rose stays where he is - on the Banned List.
39
Pete Rose should never be forgiven for running over Ray Fosse in all-star game, for heavens sake.
13
@Ryan Bingham
You're right,he shouldn't have run the guy over in the all-star game.He should and must be in the Hall of Fame if the Hall of Fame is to mean anything.
3
@jr thompson The Hall of Fame will mean nothing if Rose is allowed in.
10
@Ryan Bingham Along the same lines, I grew up a Mets fan and have never forgiven Rose for going after Bud Harrelson in the 1973 league championship series. From that perspective, Rose deserves all of the misery he gets. Irrational? Yes. Are other loathsome characters in the Hall? Yes. But I still don't want him to be given the satisfaction.
1
Rose is not sitting in prison. The punishment fits the crime, and "giving him a break" sends a message that no punishment
will last.
In light of the states now allowing sports betting, the message sent with Rose must remain.
58
@Jerseytime
Actually he did spend 5 months in prison for not reporting autograph sales. He may not be a good person but he's for sure a HOF.
3
If not, then take away the World Series trophies and give them to their opponents or to no one. But how dare they keep the trophy and rings. They admit they did not ‘earn’ them.
1
I think the argument should shift to why the people involved in the World Series scandal as well as the other examples are allowed to pay their way out of an outright expulsion.
1
Pete Rose is not a very nice guy if you remember the Buddy Harrelson and Ray Fosse incidents but he did not fix any games because of his bets and he should be in the HOF.
9
The title of this misinformed piece is a misnomer. Doing time implies, if not prison, metaphorically a restraint on one's freedom of action. Mr. Rose has suffered a consequence for committing a serious betting violation, irrespective of whether he bet on his own team or not. Significantly, no betting scandals have come to light since Mr. Rose was rightfully excluded from baseball, and, of course, admission to the Hall of Fame. He survived and made a nice living, to boot, on his continuing celebrity, Players should know that violating the proscription against betting will result in violators being cast out of the sport, for good, and for the good of baseball.
37
@heyomania Sports betting is now legal. Times change.
@Robert
No change in players and others connected to the game betting on their sport.
exactly what part of lifetime ban don't you understand.
lifetime or ban.
127
"The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes..."
1
@Newt Weaver Practically no punishment should be "for life."
Couldn't agree more. Charlie Hustle belongs in the Hall.
21
So true!
And with our 'president' pardoning War Criminals, perhaps even Pete Rose deserves a little Amnesty.
Hall of Famer* indeed.
*perhaps with one of these
1