Not much different than is going on here, with our Putin-backed government.
Trump hasn't ordered the death of anyone yet, but he's done everything else a fascist dictator does: committing crime after crime, using the White House to enrich himself, intimidating and threatening real Americans who dare tell the truth, trying to make-up crimes against Americans to silence them (Bolton), using hostile foreign governments to interfere in our elections, attacking our law enforcement and intelligence communities, and using the AG to subvert the law go after, again, real Americans who dare tell the truth.
Yet, 43% of Americans not only support him, but worship him like a god. Truly sad what is happening to our country and our democracy.
6
Only response to this heinous act of killing of a hero is to boycott China, boycott made-in-China until it becomes a democracy.
4
Would love for the Chinese people to lead us all out of this authoritarian nightmare we seem to be entering!
5
The best and most ridiculous part of the news is- China really has a law, guaranteed by its constitution, for freedom of speech! ha ha ha....
May Mao bless them.
6
I wouldn't be surprised if they let him die so that they didn't have to acknowledge what they did.
5
Oops. Typo. I meant Xi Jinping, not Li.
There comes a time when you start to see things reaching a breaking point...this is one of them.
And after a few more, the Pots stop calling the Kettle black and instead boil over and start to catch fire, burning down the kitchen...
... or the country.
...
1
That poor young man, trying to do the honest and responsible thing. What a nasty piece of work the CCP is. You have to wonder what it will take for the Chinese to revolt. And revolt they will. No government or army is big enough to hold back 1.4 billion people.
9
I wouldn't be surprised if the coronavirus epidemic does to China what Chernobyl did to the USSR.
3
So sad. There have been posts online that his pregnant wife is in the icu also.
2
We need to do everything possible Not to a have pandemic.
Trump, Bolten & Mulvany got rid the people needed to stop this.
Trump's goal is to slow it down.
Not eradicate it.
I was a Republican, now I honestly hate most of them.
8
So glad people are protesting Dr. Li's treatment.
2
We have no moral authority to judge any other country given what is happening here. If Trump and his enablers have their way, the Ukraine whistle blower would have a similar fate as this brave doctor.
8
It's sad to see the comments about this serious health issue bring used as a vehicle to criticize the US.
1
Dr. Li warned (via private group on social media) on 12/30 about the virus, and was warned by the local authority to shut up on 1/3.
At the same time (according to CNN's 'Wuhan Coronavirus Timeline Fast Facts).
WHO was notified by China on 12/31 about an unknown virus.
China shut down the Wuhan wet market on 1/1.
China announced to the public on 1/5 about the unknown virus
China named the virus on 1/7
I don't see the case where Beijing dropped the ball on the account of NOT listening to Dr. Li. Both raised the alarm about the same time.
5
Everyone is critiquing the Chinese response, calling the quarantines cruel. Yet nobody is out here proposing any alternative. How would you deal with a stealthy and highly contagious virus, in a country if 1.4 billion, during peak Chinese New Year trave season? Come up with a workable and superior alternative, and then we can talk about how the Chinese is doing a poor job.
6
The Chinese populace obviously have no idea how bad it really is, and I mean the overall health of their civilization, not the coronavirus. Their huge problems are all glossed over and deleted, but never really fixed. It will be an awakening beyond comprehension when the truth comes out and people realize they have a choice and power in numbers. It can't go on forever the way it is right now. They are all voiceless slaves in their own society. Hong Kong was just a polite preview.
1
Cult of secrecy and worshipping of the Communist party and its Godly leaders would eventually become the root cause of Chinese downfall, as it's always the case for each and every autocratic regimes in the history.
Collapse of once mighty USSR, Roman empire, Ottoman empire and so many more such kingdoms are few glaring proofs.
Unfortunately a many functional democracies around the world and a large section of our own country, USA, are more than determined to follow that route of self-defeat. Blind allegiance for a specific political party and/or political "Prophets", who are believed to be infallible, is showing all the same indications.
Truth (as verified by science/logic) and Justice (not mere law or constitution) are the worst victims and would eventually take its toll in form of making America just like China or any other typical 3rd world country if this situation continues.
4
Probably the worst thing a totalitarian government can encounter, is when the people are no longer afraid to die for their convictions. That doesn’t mean they take up arms; it just means they no longer care about the “pain of death” their government holds over them. The police with their batons, the orchestrated news in favor of “the party.” It all reaches a boiling-over point when the constant fake show becomes too much to bear.
3
It is so sad a young ophthalmologist died in the front line. Countless of the brightest and bravest have been killed throughout Chinese modern history as the regime tries to maintain its power. Few by diseases and more by bullets, imprisonment, hard labor and starvation. Locked behind the iron curtain of the internet is an unrestful pool of conscience, enlightenment, and aspiration incubated and to be released. A nation this beautiful and rich in history and intellect must wake up one day, break away the chain, and gain freedom.
Dear Americans, do not fell to the dictatorship of D.J Trump and let him ruin the best democracy in human history that Chinese people want to have one day!
7
I think that in the past, Chinese citizens were willing to put up with a certain degree of authoritarianism because there was the assumption that their government would take care of them. However, government response to crises shows a belated, reactive lack of a learning curve. Especially among the younger, more tech-savvy generations, people are starting to see that their government is not what it's supposed to be, and that it's not even a communist economic model, but a fascist one,benefitting a privileged few. As a theory, that's not of much consequence, but when party officials are hoarding protective gear from hospitals, and hospitals are relying on public donations, things get real fast. This time, people are genuinely angry, and in large enough numbers that the censors can't keep up. The people of China deserve better than the CCP government. They need the information that will help them to survive, not some fiction made up to glorify an oppressive, obsolete political system.
13
China didn't do anything for 40 days except hide the problem and punish doctors and others for warning others. Let's hope this finally convinces the Chinese and the rest of the world that authoritarian governments are outdated and unable to do anything right, even unable to prevent an epidemic though they could theoretically do it more aggressively than democracies.
As explained in https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html :
"The government’s initial handling of the epidemic allowed the virus to gain a tenacious hold. To avoid public alarm and political embarrassment, officials chose at critical moments to put secrecy and order ahead of openly confronting the growing crisis.
"In those weeks, the authorities silenced doctors and others for raising red flags. They played down the dangers to the public, leaving the city’s 11 million residents unaware they should protect themselves. They closed a food market where the virus was believed to have started, but didn’t broadly curb the wildlife trade."
3
“We should be more tolerant of people who post ‘untruthful information’ that aren’t malicious,” Wang Gaofei, the chief executive of Weibo, said in a post. “If we’re only allowed to speak what we can guarantee is fact, we’re going to pay prices.”
I rightly criticize American social media for spreading false statements, yet this nuanced statement from an unlikely source makes an interesting point.
1
Reminds me of the words from a Pink Floyd song:
"The wire that holds the cork
That keeps the anger in
Gives way
And suddenly it's day again.
The sun is in the east..."
-Two Suns in the Sunset
Album:The Final Cut
Pink Floyd 1983
3
The Chinese government is being criticized because the epidemic’s origin seems to be a wild game market, which was the source of the SARS epidemic. Moreover, officials reprimanded Dr. Li Wenling rather than helped him sound the alarm. Dr. Li is a martyr. The normal status in China is that the welfare of the people is a below the party and the economy. The Chinese rights lawyers have tried to make the legal system reflect the larger body of human rights law. They were jailed. This epidemic and Dr. Li’s death are piercing the nationalistic emotion of the people that the Communist Party of China relies on. China needs elected leaders that carry mandates from the people. The irony is that the command and control that the security apparatus can institute is saving more Chinese lives, world-wide lives, and the global economy.
1
Why haven't the Chinese people been successful in rising up against oppression as happened in Eastern Europe?
I think because the Chinese government has not lost all genuine support as happened with the communist regimes of Europe.
2
Isn’t this the greatest warning to American voters? This is what we’ll become if we don’t pay attention.
5
An uprising in Wuhan on October 10, 1911 sparked the revolution that moverthrew four thousand years of dynastic rule in China.
Fast forward to today. The authoritarian government that took over the country in 1949 is firmly in control of its people as never before, with the capacity to surpass all previous rulers. Meanwhile, a beacon of hope for democracy and civil society that is the island of Taiwan has been stripped of recognition on the international stage, the U.S. and the WHO included, all the while under constant threat from China. Trump and the WHO complimenting Xi, natural disasters sparked by climate change, do they portend a return to the Dark Ages?
6
Many comments draw parallels to America's present state. The one that grabs me is the primacy of image over reality. Wuhan officials were concerned about their image (being in control), not the reality of the viral threat. If they had cared about the reality facing public health, they would have asked for Dr. Li's help back in December instead of repudiating him.
Interesting this article appears next to the one about Lt. Col. Vindman, another public servant repudiated for telling the truth.
Lessons abound but is anyone learning from them?
13
Trump and Li can’t agree on trade, but at least they believe in censorship together. Don’t say climate change and Coronavirus and maybe they’ll go away.
8
I believe you meant Xi, not Dr. Li.
3
I do think we could easily become like China, and it seems we are moving in that direction, in terms of censorship or
curtailment of freedom of the press but for now, these are among many of why I am glad I do not live in China.
2
We mourn the unnecessary death of young Dr. Li. Let this be a lesson to us what it means to live under dictatorial regimes, let us all work so it doesn't happen here.
Moments like this make clear to me what the Hong Kong protesters stood up against, and rightly so.
15
The more I read these comments, the more I am convinced that we are in a time similar to before the First World War, when propaganda in the U.K. whipped up public opinion against the Germans, pushing the continent towards war. I doubt any of you has actually visited China, nor really knows anything about the Chinese system of government, any more than most of you knew about the flimsy basis of government you yourselves have.
Dr Li Wenliang was not a “martyr”, he was a good man serving his community as an ophthalmologist. The local government mistakenly reprimanded him for spreading rumours and later apologised to him. The government was not to blame for him contracting the virus - he got it from an outpatient seeking treatment for her eye who had no symptoms.
He later expressed that he would like to return to serving as a doctor as soon as he recovered, which he sadly did not.
He would be shocked to hear of the propaganda that his story is being used to support.
Likewise, you know nothing about Hong Kong, which has a political system closer to that of the U.K. and US - independent judiciary, free press, freedom of speech etc. No-one here is being oppressed in any way. The violent radicals are destroying the territory as part of a scorched earth policy. They despise the rule of law that is an essential part of any democracy and are this anti-democrats. Please do not support their violence and vandalism.
In many of the reader-recommended posts, there is a lot of whataboutism. It goes "well, it's bad in China but we are not that better either in the US or that the Republican Party is not that different." That's a very flawed thinking. These are two very different systems. The brutality of the Chinese regime is unlike anything here. Yes, our system is not perfect, but you cannot compare this country to the viciousness of the Chinese communists and their repression. The very fact that you can make that kind of statements shows what is so unique and precious about the US and Western liberal democracies in general. Have some perspective!
13
There is certainly more to the story than this brave doctor’s passing. The communist government could have spun this as a positive piece. His death may not be related to the virus and more sinister that we know. I wonder how many laboratories in wuhan are conducting microbiological experiments?
1
This is ridiculous. FLU Is way more deadly.
Fear of losing face is a biggy in Asia.
Most Westerners can't really conceive of its importance to daily harmony in China, Indochina and SE Asia.
Traditionally it went both ways: If I made you lose face, I lost face, too, and everyone watching would want to flee the scene, due to its unbearability.
But China's gov't doesn't play by those rules. And the Chinese people are left to make sense of it. As are the rest of us.
3
Secrecy and forced worshipping of the Communist party and its Godly leaders would eventually become the root cause of Chinese downfall, as it's always the case for each and every autocratic regimes in the history. Collapse of once mighty USSR, Roman empire, Ottoman empire and so many more such once mighty kingdoms are glaring proofs.
Unfortunately a large section of our own country, USA, is more than determined to follow that route to self-defeat. Blind allegiance for the party and/or political "Prophets", who are believed to be infallible, is showing all the same indications.
Truth (as verified by science/logic) and Justice (not mee law or constitution) are the worst victims and would eventually take its toll in form of making America just like China or other 3rd world country.
5
RE: "cracked down repeatedly on lawyers, journalists and businesspeople..."
Like calling journalists as the enemy of the people? Or no longer holding press conferences? Or the changing the libel laws to make it easier to sue media organizations for unfavorable coverage?
There are a lot of comments comparing what has happened in China to what is happening in the US with the immediate backlash that we are *nothing* like China.
I am reminded of a famous Chinese proverb: "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
We are well beyond the first step. We have a President who chastises the press for not printing good news about him like FOX News does. We have a president who threatens the press and the reporters. We have a party that insists that its members literally toe the line. The Senate leader even brags of that the members are in line and loyal to the party and won't defect. With FOX News they have any entire population toeing the line. Look at the backlash when one of their members doesn't. RINO does not mean - "good on you independent thinker."
We have an administration that silences science. That writes it out of regulation. It's here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/climate/epa-science-trump.html
And Trump fired scientists: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fired-epa-scientists-release-air-pollution-report-they-say-agency-n1064456
We don't want to be the frog whose tepid water was slowly raised enough to kill us without our noticing.
6
Dr. Li is the true definition of a hero, a word used waaaay too often and inappropriately these days. His tragic story and his death, of which his vicious, authoritarian government is 100% responsible, made my thoughts bounce right over to the increasingly dictatorial "leader" of our own government, who is now openly threatening anyone who speaks against him over the horrendous things he has said and done - AFTER having been acquitted by the gutless, power-abusing cowards of his party.
The seeds of American fascism have sprouted, and apparently millions of my fellow Americans could care less as long as their stock portfolios are fattening and the unraveling of our environmental laws doesn't seem to be affecting them. Yet. There is nothing admirable about any of this, and I wish the media, in all its forms, would stop its admiration for the way in which our despicable commander in thief manipulates and bullies everyone and everything.
3
Albert Camus (in speaking of the Spanish Civil war, as quoted in the preface to "To Be, and Not To Be") said it well: "... [my generation] learned that one can be right and yet be beaten, that force can vanquish spirit, that there are times when courage is not its own recompense."
Sadly, but realistically, to win one must be willing to lose. Comfortable people, with much leisure and unpressured by adversity, such as the majority of those in the US, will always find this hard to grasp. Yet, it is they who must make themselves heard before such pressures overwhelm. #NovemberIsOurTime. Pass it on.
4
Many of the posts and threads about Dr. Li have already been deleted at this time.
Widespread outrage doesn't mean much when literally anything critical of the government gets wiped out like it never existed.
Dr. Li Wenliag is a great Chinese hero who did all what he could in a system that restricts freedom of expression and inconvenient truth. RIP Dr. Li Wenliang.
6
China is slow to awaken, but when it does . . .
1
the corona virus is causing great pain to
an already weak Chinese economy.
the trade war, African swine fever and
corona virus might put china into recession.
100 million peoples movement restricted
for over 2 weeks would kick the Chinese
economy while it is down.
2
I wonder how many people in China know of dr Li's fate? will his memory be like Tank Man, unkown?
1
Down with Xi Jinping! Down with Chinese Communist Party! It is about time for the end of Chinese Communist dictatorship in China. Seventy years of communism is too long. Dr. Li Wenliang's tragic death should wake up the innocent Chinese people. Russia's Putin is much better than Xi Jinping. No more death without a cause.
Despite these updates, they do not tell the whole story of how Dr. Li's death was handled. See the BBC here: https://youtu.be/y6iikPfpXl0?t=25 They did Dr. Li wrong. Basically, they desecrated his *dead* body by dressing him up with a life support machine as if it were a costume. They wanted people to think that he was STILL ALIVE! I watched all three broadcast networks in the US and none of them told the story this way. Now CNN, DW, and NYT have been shown to report the sanitized version as well.
2
in China they hide the truth...in America they fake it...
3
China does secrecy better than any except maybe North Korea! That is not the right thing when it comes communicable diseases!!
To remark “The doctor, Li Wenliang, had been silenced by the police after warning about the new coronavirus…”(@nytimes)
Who, What, Where and Why?
They never seem to mention what he died from.
2
Touting only what the Dear Leader wants to hear. This is where we are heading! We have Freedom of Speech now. This is what it looks like when you don't.
1
Nothing is reported about the police officer(s) who damned Dr. Li and facilitated the serious illness and death of millions. Or, about the national policy he thought he was adhering to. Public embarrassment of this backward soul is more than appropriate.
It is ingrained in their barbaric culture to suppress real freedoms. People all over the world should beware of what a monstrosity it would be to allow communist china to rise above all nations of the world and impose their tyranny. They should be masters of chinatown but nothing else.
Dr. Li was young! What caused him to die? Was his immune system run down from fatigue, overwork? Did he have a pre-existing condition which made him more susceptible? Many questions but no answers.
The Chinese have many brilliant doctors and scientists and I believe they know more than they have said.
Dr. Li's death is indicative of many unknown factors. Have they done an autopsy? Will they release the results? The world needs to know what the Chinese government knows.
3
Dr Li Wenliang is a hero. Yet his country tried to suppress his alerts about this terrible contagion. He treated patients and has paid the highest price, he became infected and has died. His country also tried to suppress news of his death. After SARS and MERS China did nothing to stop the processing of wild animals in public markets. Now we have another instance of an animal virus transferring to humans. We are not even sure of the exact way it is transmitted (breath or contact). China engages in massive social control programs. American corporate giants have their products made there. They all comply with Chinese dictates to manufacture and sell their products. The movie industry, the sports industry all play along with Chinese policy demands (no emails supporting Hong Kong) or we won't let you play or show your movie. Now the quandary has arisen again. What is to be done? Will China respond to its citizens over this outrage by really listening and making changes? For humanity, let us hope so.
4
In our democracy, there are federal agency procedures and protocol for silencing plaintiffs and critics. It is widespread and the methods have been adopted by state agencies, as well. For instance, the Medical Board of California, a state agency, "protects" the very worst doctors.
3
This is what happens in an authoritarian society where people rightly fear retribution for speaking truth to power. People suffer and die because others are complicit and the courageous are silenced.
Considering Trump’s vicious, vindictive obsession with punishing perceived “enemies” (anyone who puts country before party or speaks a truth he doesn’t like), and the complicity of those who empower and cover for him, how far is our federal government from China’s authoritarian model? I fear not far.
Once those in power stifle open discussion and inculcate fear of reprisals, the chances of bad outcomes multiply. What will our botched government response to a disaster be because Trumpists have punished honorable public servants who put the public interest above their own?
7
Perhaps we all need to re-watch (or watch for the first time?) the movie Contagion, a 2011 medical thriller by director Steven Soderbergh.
I remember going to see it because the CDC doctors were depicted as heroes.
As was Dr.Li, a dedicated public servant and whistle-blower.
If we deride our whistle-blowers, who do we expect to come
forward and save us?
8
Why on earth would we trust Huawei? No matter what you think of Trump, this is just another reminder that you can't trust the Chinese communist party and their contempt for the rights and dignity of a single individual. Trump will be gone one day. Huawei will do whatever xi and the party demand.
4
These kinds of events from a preoccupation upon control of a population erodes the credibility of rulers and compromises the trust that enables them to rule effectively. They end up relying upon fear rather than consent which is corrosive and ultimately becomes very costly because nobody trusts anyone.
2
The death of Dr. Li will be remember for a long time. His sacrifice will improve people's common sense and awareness of eating wild animals. His story will also improve the government efficiency and responsiveness.
Yahoo Finance just has an interview with Dr. Collins, director of NIH. He basically said that we shouldn't worry about Coronavirus in the US. We should be more concerned about flu, where we had over 10,000 deaths this season. We should take flu shots while it is still available.
2
@ Usok Thanks for your comments. Yes, the flu is dangerous but from qualified medical sources, I am concerned that the flu vaccine "didn't hit the target" this year. Will it truly do any good to get it? Anyone have info on this? Thanks.
Dr. Li may be a hero, but he will be crushed and forgotten by the Chinese authorities who will not allow their people to think ANY free thoughts of their own. Don't fall for the gambit that the "Widespead Outcry" will amount to anything substantive. Xi and his henchmen have their boots on the throat of their people and won't be letting up anytime soon. Yes, I have been there and have seen it for myself. Free thought and liberty are concepts the average Chinese national has been convinced is not for them.
4
As a fellow healthcare professional, I feel terrible that this courageous man has died. I also have a nagging thought in my mind: China has been saying the dead had some underlying disease and that older people are the most vulnerable. Dr. Li appeared to be a young, healthy man in the prime of his life. If he did not have an underlying disease, this changes the picture of the virus's lethality.
I hope Dr. Li's children grow up and learn what a courageous man he was. And I hope his unborn child is going to be healthy.
43
Remember tank man, that man who stood up to the tanks in Tiananmen square. That man’s identity was never known. I think, perhaps, in many way, Dr. Li Wenliang is related to him.
21
FIGHT THE POWER
12
Will Li Wenliang become China’s Mohamed Bouazizi?
5
I wove the articles
To the stupid Trumpers who think that science can be ignored, you would love to live in China.
17
@rocky vermont. Stupid trumpists ? Never Trumpers and their fellow speech police shouting down free speech they don't like on college campus should take note.
What's the difference to what was done by CCP to dr Li?..doesn't it derive from the same mentality?
1
This reminds me of that time a doctor sounded the alarm about lead levels in the drinking water and was hushed up by the state health officials....in Flint, MI
39
@Jane Grey Exactly. To Flint, MI add Newark, NJ. If you throw in the oil refineries in the South with their benzene and other distillates, we start stacking up to the Chinese real fast. Who needs the EPA? Three-eyed toads are perfectly normal.
2
When I was a kid in China, I learned the myth of the Great Wall - the Emperor buried 10,000 of his subjects alive, serving as the foundation. Perhaps the mentality is so embedded in the subconscious of the Mainland Chinese that they have Stockholm Syndrome. The CPC, lead my Emperor Xi, only sees the population as a large cog in the machinery. The citizenry complies because it has been doing it for 4000+ years. This might wake them up.....
14
@WX The Emperor also burned thousands of books which meant centuries of knowledge were lost within a few minutes. Have you ever studied the history of China? There have been rebels and rebellions - most recently, the Tai Pings, the 1911 Revolution, even Mao's Long March. Often they are crushed by the people in power. So for practical reasons, people do not rebel. Another reason is culture: especially Confucianism teaches people to respect their elders and/or their superiors. Children area not raised to question authority: I certainly wasn't.
2
My UBER driver emigrated from China 15 years, ago. We chatted about his family, about life in China.
He said, “Life in China is good. We can eat, we can make money. Only one thing we cannot do.
We cannot speak. Here in US you can say anything you want. Not in China.”
The people are trying to speak.
23
The biggest issue for the Chinese is Free Speech... Only with the freedom to speak can corrupt authoritarian governments be exposed for the evils they do.
11
Dr. Li actions are about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness being an inalienable right -
Governments and presidents can chose to ignore it at their own peril
9
The 1911 revolution inspired by Sun Yat Sen that succeeded in overthrowing the last emperor of China and brought an end to 4000 years of dynastic rule began as an uprising in Wuhan. Something to remember.
As history would have it, a period of national disunity followed, but so did the flowering of fresh ideas and thoughts, Communism among them. Then the nationalist government became preoccupied with the Japanese invasion, resulting in the subsequent takeover of China in 1949 by the CCP, and
migration of the government to Taiwan. The ‘white terror’ presided by the KMT in those early years has now evolved into a flowering of democracy and the thriving of civil society. Meanwhile, under constant threat from China, Taiwan exists in the twilight zone, stripped of recognition by most countries of the world on the international stage including the U.S, deprived of membership in the WHO, which has become a mouthpiece for China.
13
Sounds more and more like the USA.
4
Prosperity without humanity.
8
My deepest sympathies to Dr. Li`s family! China needs more people like Dr.Li.
But let`s not forget this, the outbreak was and still is an on going event. As readers do, we tend to take the current information to judge the case of Dr. Li. Even the authority took Dr. Li`s `rumor` seriously, I don`t think they would have immediately quarantined more than 30 million people at that time because the number of cases was still small.
Just for the record, it took months for swine flu H1N1 to be recognized as an outbreak in 2009 and killed more than 100000 people. I still think the China government is doing a good job to contain the viruses.
After all, the virus is our enemy not the China`s government. We should fight together.
1
@ThoghtExperiment OK. Someone trained in medicine and proper observation of symptoms and patterns warned *other doctors* in a *discussion* to be careful and to be on the lookout for a viral pneumonia similar to SARS. Even people who are not trained in a field can make an accurate observation based on logic, deduction, or knowledge. You could be driving down the highway and notice a truck with an unbalanced load. Do you need to be a CDL rated truck driver to flash your hazards and point at the truck bed? No.
We live in an age of efficient communication. Even if the Mayor or Wuhan or his deputies don't know medicine, can't they phone the directors of local hospitals together on a video conference call? I live in New York City, if Mayor De Blasio is too incompetent to call Mt. Sinai Hospital about a cluster of patients with breathing problems, then he's more useless than amoeba.
Stop making excuses for the CCP's and the local government's incompetence. It's 2020, not the age of the telegraph.
Hmmm! for those who know, one sees Zhou Enlai memorial 1976. Hu Yaobang 1989, Li Wenliang 2020. A wave is rising and has yet to crest.
2
This is why politics and religion should never interfere with scientific facts. Wish the doctor had an autopsy to prove the cause of his death.
9
It’s repugnant and sad but not surprising that the corrupt and criminal regime in China first persecuted this doctor in contradiction of their own constitution and then allowed him to work to the point where he was himself too weak to fight the illness that took his young life.
I’m just surprised that they’re not rounding up the sick and euthanising them before dumping them in unmarked graves.
5
Communist China is a strange place whose leaders have a strange way of thinking.
The civilization is thousands of years old and their leaders still try to govern with the methods that were in vogue thousands of years ago: Keep the masses under foot & under control. These leaders fear the "people" having independent thought & expression. How they think they can still govern in that manner in this day & age is absolutely astounding. But yet they still try.
For a culture who is constantly worried about "saving face" and how they look to the outside world & their own people, they must surely be aware that they now look as pathetic as the boy who is trying to keep the dike from bursting by putting his fingers in the holes.
It's too bad that it took something like disease & death to rip the cover off the way the Chinese do things, but perhaps it was always inevitable that this would happen.
5
China tried to shoot down the messenger and it backfired ,truth an openness is always better.
Under Trump as head of our country we have to learn this once again as well.
4
Maybe the Chinese gov't's Chernobyl has come at last.
4
Li had already become a national hero for alerting fellow doctors Dec. 30 in an online post about the emergence of a SARS-like illness, warning them to wear protective clothing to avoid infection.
Li, along with seven others in Wuhan, were later arrested by local security police on charges of spreading rumors and forced to sign a document disavowing his statements and agreeing to quit speaking out.
Wake up America, this is Bernie's goal to turn the USA into a socialist/communist dream land. He is just continuing what Obama started and has been gong on for the last 40-60yrs in our colleges. Read Saul Olinsky's book which preaches exactly how to transform people to socialism.
1
@ron
Please stop!
This forum is about someone who tried to do the right thing under diificult circumstances and eventually died on the front lines. Enough with your attempts at fearmongering!
1
@ron My family survived 2 Communist governments yet we support Bernie. Why? Because what he is proposing is nothing like what Communist governments are like. I find that most people who advance such claims have little understanding of what Communism is much less what those governments are actually like.
1
Dr. Li Wenliang should get Nobel prize for
medicine posthumously.
6
He looks like he was a healthy guy, It so obvious that the Chinese Government had him killed.
3
The continuity of mass societies is irrational.
This kind of Totalitarian State is exactly what Republicans and the American Oligarchy wish for the US.
3
The virus killed him. Uh huh. Right.
2
Thankfully, President Bone Spurs acknowledges what a fine job Xi really did. The whistleblowing doctor was just not a true patriot.
/sarc/
4
but fake bone spurs says china is doing an excellent job at controlling it.....
Another lie
5
China is our enemy. We should have nothing to do with this evil slave dictatorship. Buy nothing from them. Why fund you own country's destruction so a few traitors Businessmen) can make money off the misery.
2
Americans had it bad with George W Bush during any crisis now with Trump, an unhinged full blown criminal at the helm we can expect a worse nightmare.
6
This constant China-bashing is tiresome and must end.
No responsible government would want to declare a nationwide and possibly global medical emergency before all the facts are in.
The last thing you want is a panic.
That doctor's death is regrettable, but he is only one of the victims. What about the other 599 (more by now I'm sure).
China did everything that should be done, once the severity of the situation was recognised and documented.
We should commend their efforts and offer our help, not using this situation to score ugly, cheap political points.
4
Would-be autocrats envy the freedom of the Chinese government to “silence” all inconvenient truth. So do all plutocrats, looking to protect their income. Let Americans learn, and value their rule of law.
1
So Chinese citizens are clamoring for freedom while under duress, authoritarianism and censorship.
Meanwhile, we Americans are driving towards authoritarianism while under relative comfort, a bill of rights and freedom of speech.
As things are going, I wouldn’t be surprised that in 30 years time China is the free, global oriented society and America is the inward looking theocratic society under the weight of a tyrannical Republican super Party.
Americans don’t seem to care anymore.
13
Dr. Lin Wenliang is a hero not just to China but to the world. Like the people who testified during the hearings, he cared so much for the people and the medical community. He risked everything to make a difference.
I will honor him all the days of my life for having the courage to speak out. I honor the people in America who spoke out and in my own way I continue to speak out.
We have one life and we need to never be ashamed of it. My brothers and sisters fight on and stay healthy.
Trump insulted Jesus yesterday at the Prayer Meeting we should never forget that
5
The highest-rated comment states, "This [the loss of free speech] is exactly what is starting to happen here." Really? The ideological purity tests being performed on the left have far more in common with China than Trump does. I could say the worst possible thing about Trump and it wouldn't affect my life or livelihood (in fact, I may get canonized), but if I say anything the left doesn't like, I get canceled. It's terrifying, and I never thought I'd live to see the day when I would be terrified to speak in this country. I wish people would consider what a factor this is for educated professionals like me who are afraid to speak, but not vote.
4
@Anonymous
What about Trump and the Republican Senate's attack on the whistle blower?
1
The party wins again.
In China, there is never a fair contest between the party and the people.
No surprise.
2
I've read some of Chinese people's voice,stored before deleted,(Thanks online translation)
Filled with anger and sadness for silenced him.
Also,snapshot of Dr.Li as a person-Sounded pretty ordinary man at his age.
Those snapshot made me more sad and angry.
He and other 7 doctors found themselves amongst unknown illness,Exchanged information.It would protect Chinese people.It would protect himself.
It's easy to say China is one pre-human right country.We (for example me Japanese,and you American too)should again realize our voice too are in danger,and I'm not sure we can stand up like Chinese people.
1
I will stand up and vote my voice and urge others to do so while we can still keep our democracy.
2
Li was a whistle blower. We should also be concerned with the way whistle blowers are treated here in the United States by our President and Republican Senate. Alexander Vindman is about to be fired. The Republicans refused to respect whistle blower protections. The US is no better than China.
9
Trump is the man that Americans elected to draw their weather maps and negotiate with Iran. Now he will be directing our efforts
against the coronavirus.
Presumably while wearing a hazmat suit.
The only thing we are missing now is his updated Montreal Cognitive Assessment.
5
So now we learn that not only the sick, elderly or those with weakened immune systems are also dying from this virus. In addition, while initially I thought China had reacted proactively to fight the spread of this disease, I now learn that at first they engaged in trying to cover it up. Is there any place on earth that doesn’t use subterfuge to control it’s citizens?
4
There seem to be quite a few alleged recoveries, it would be helpful to hear from them and to hear their stories.
4
Like others here, I am saddened by Dr. Li Wenliang's death. It was completely avoidable and I've read various suggestions for honoring the deceased doctor. Nothing can bring him back, but the Chinese government should step forward and support his now widowed (pregnant) wife and child. It's bad enough the family has lost a husband and father, but must they also worry for their livelihood?
3
We should look into the mirror and see the reflection of Dr. Li in our own country, in the faces of people and of institutions and organizations belittled, demeaned, intimidated and silenced by our own POTUS. These include but not limited to the press, journalists, parents of dead American soldier, disable people, people of colors, immigrants, Democrat elected officials and, unfortunately, Republican elected officials as well.
18
And this is the problem with Western Democratic countries heavily investing in autocratic countries with human rights issues. We have to constantly walk on eggshells just to get them to cooperate, even on very serious situations like health issues. But, when you put profits before everything, this is what happens. No one should be remotely surprised by the Chinese government’s heavy-handed reaction to a doctor who goes against the government. Just as long as US corporations get cheap slave labor.
8
@Karen McHale or you can stop buying Chinese made merchandise.
We in the U.S. are headed down the same road. Trump and his supporters are doing everything they can to limit free speech and freedom of the press. They're not just willing to give up two of our most basic rights, they're lining up to do so.
11
The ability to tell the ordinary, every day truth without fear is essential to leading a quality life in a free society. That’s why we protect the identity of whistleblowers. That’s why we support Sanders, who tells the truth, that we need real healthcare for all, a livable wage and true action on climate change. Nothing radical, just every day truth. Sanders2020
8
@Lilly a man died from Coronavirus. Have some dignity. This is not the place to promote your presidential preference.
I am crying with tears of grief for Dr. Li Wenliang for this senseless tragedy. I hope Americans too, learn the price we pay when leaders such as Xi and Trump jail dissidents and suppress individual liberty and freedom. My prayers are sent to China as our brothers and sisters suffer.
13
People in China grieve for him not because he is a hero, but because he is a completely pedestrian human being. He did not try to sound alarm to the public at first, but alerted family and friends he was close to. He loved good food. He was a tech geek. He posted pictures of his son all the time. He was like you, and he was like me. He did what everyone would have done under given circumstances, to a minimal degree. Yet he was silenced and punished for merely telling the truth.
We live in a society where fear of punishment for telling the truth is the NORM. The reason there is a strong consensus against government conduct this time, is because literally ANYONE in Li Wenliang's situation would have done what he had done. And that, according to government protocol, is not allowed.
55
@Zhou China is scum.All my Chinese friends have left, have given up.Welcome to Berkeley!
@Zhou He loved Fried Chicken,Egg Pancake while he's doing night shift,Hot pot,Japanese food,"poor family's"iPhone 11 Pro Max,Ran 1000 meters to get some Orange..
So sad.so sad.
Exactly! He only mentioned it to his family and to his friends on a weibo page for doctors! Apparently even caring about one's friends and family is a CCP mandate. Just as a reminder, this was in early DECEMBER. Any other country would have taken precautions to prevent further spread of the disease. The CCP feared losing face? What does causing yet ANOTHER worldwide epidemic with your own irresponsibility do, exactly? There have been the swine flu, SARS, and countless others. I'm glad the Chinese people are finally saying, "Enough!"
The despotic government silenced the truth? Sadly, it's not shocking and this is happening in the United States as well folks.
13
Perhaps Dr. Li, and the coronavirus itself, is the unfortunate, tragic tipping point China needs in order to overthrow its oppressive government. If there's power in numbers, as the adage goes, then they are well on their way.
7
China is like the Catholic Church...it thinks in aeons, not years. Change in China comes slowly and in blocks.
@Allison While that we would be what we all hope for, it's really just a wishful thought. Oppressive governments are like a cancer, once it's there, no amount of treatment can get rid of it.
For democracy's sake, take heed.
3
May the people of China gain the strength and wisdom to force change in their government, allowing more basic human rights. How ironic it would be if China seeks to improve their human rights while America struggles to preserve what we have.
16
Citing the constitution is useless on mainland China. The expertise of the CCP is better than Putin's Hump in terms of generating fake news and badmouthing real ones.
Their highest priority is "to maintain stability" and that means suppressing all thoughts that are against the party line. I sort of can see their reason. Freedom of speech means one is free to repeat the official speech of the party line. Rule of law means I will make the laws to rule you by. Pushing to the "logical extreme" it means saying anything that is negative will be banned. In this case lies are truths and truths are lies. The Chinese should read 1984 if it is not banned there.
Will this protest amount to much of anything this time? My bet is no. Even here in America we find people persuaded by fake news when truths are available everywhere. Just ask the "base" of Putin's Hump.
My empathy to the Chinese who posted their thoughts and grief online. I wish them well and they will not be detained.
7
The censorship complained of in China is happening already in the US too. It's just a little more subtle: "Fake news;" Sharpies wielded in the middle of the night; agencies repressing and repudiating their own staff's reports; government officials quoting conspiracy theories, and quasi state TV. OK, maybe this is not so subtle, but don't think for a single moment that censorship only occurs under communist regimes.
15
@Art
Right on!
Add to your list the bosses in critical sectors ignoring their employees' safety concerns or worse imply dire consequences for speaking up. Boeing ignored safety concerns. Healthcare is gradually being taken over by business types to consolidate and thereby weild more power to monopolize and control.
As we get inculcated into a culture of worshipping power and money without any ethics we will set ourselves up for more oligarchs and authoriatarians.
Politicians of all colors here have forgotten who they are beholden to. They lacked the vision to see that the technological revolution will create a large number of losers.
Trump and Bernie are the natural byproducts of this self-destructive capitalism.
At the end of the second paragraph: "forced the government to corral many of the country’s 1.4 billion people". The word "corral" is normally used for livestock, NOT people. The author shows great empathy in other places, so I don't think this is their intention at all. So please redact and replace.
6
@Max Maybe to the Chinese officials, the Chinese people ARE like animals.I will never go there EVER.
oh no. The word corral is intentional and in fact describes author Chris Buckley's general attitude toward the Chinese people. whether or not he wrote this section, this is his viewpoint. Chris is the son of William f Buckley, and carries on that great tradition of anti-communism - anti china. both Buckley's have much to celebrate this season: President Trump's great victory and vindication, plus his enthusiasm for representing China's struggle to combat the coronavirus in a demeaning and negative way. compare the death toll of the virus in China to the death toll of influenza virus in the USA, and you will see what a huge propaganda piece this article is. the virus spreading from the White House in the USA concerns me more than any virus anywhere.
1
@Max I do think the author used "corral" purposely to imply the lack of human rights in China. It is the life of Communist party, sadly not the people, the Chinese government cares about.
Carl Heinz Bickerle
Frankfurt, Germany
For all those, who think they can neglect the truth: Be assured, reality and truth will one day catch up with you.
9
China's repressive policy against free speech has killed the messenger, but Chinese Communist party's repressive policies can not stop the killer virus. Dictatorship and suppressing truth has its limits and consequences. Let that be a lesson for the current US government in power.
6
U.S. Deploys a New Nuclear Weapon for the First Time Since the Cold War.
1
Ah, a solution that could only come out of America. Let’s kill about a billion people. God help us.
Maybe with the flat earth model, turning China into a nuclear wasteland will have no negative impact on the world. Well anyhow, those animal eating savages deserve it, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese Government withheld medical care from Dr. Li Wenliang. That's how they treat those who speak out in China.
13
While millions around the world pay attribute Dr. Li, one thing most the them did not know who had supported the brutal HKSAR police to suppress the Hong Kong people before the Coronavirus outbreak. His support to a totalitarian regime also made him loss of his life and the suffered of his whole family. What I am going to say that billions of mainland Chine have been brainwashed for long. They won't wake up until it is too late.
3
I implore all Americans to vote in 2020 to remove trump and any Senator who acquitted him of impeachment charges. The US is already seeing altered hurricane maps courtesy of our lying President. If he wins in 2020 we become China and will have our freedoms of speech denied just as in China. May Dr. Li RIP and his family feel some comfort from his heroic efforts. May the Chinese people gain their voice against a regime bent on taking it away. May Americans learn that facts, science, and freedom of speech are critical to our lives and act according the next election. I will keep the Chinese people and all those fighting this virus in my heart. Looking forward to hearing there is a vaccine to fight the corona virus.
11
The article starts with ... The doctor, Li Wenliang, had been silenced by the police ..
That's not correct. Police in this case are at end of a chain of command that goes all the way to the top. While the top did not give an explicit command to deal with this "rumor", a system exists where delivering bad news can lead to trouble. And that system can now be very dangerous if new medicines don't work and quarantines don't help and the actual intensity of the virus is softened to keep the country's (read CCC's) image in tact.
6
Dr. Li is a hero in at least three different ways. First, by sounding the alarm about the cornonavirus, serving his country even as the authorities sought to suppress the news. Second, by treating those stricken by it, even at the cost of risking and then catching the illness himself. Finally, as evinced by so many comments here, by providing a stark example for Americans about the danger of surrendering to the authoritarianism threatening our own nation. It will be small solace to his family, but I hope the international public health community establishes some kind of memorial in this great man's name.
454
@Thunder Road
You need some additional context regarding governance in China.
From all evidence to date.. local government in Wuhan are the ones that pressured Dr Li.. NOT the central government.
This is often the case in China... corruption at local level city and provincial government, and the central government is continuously investigating such corruption and convicting, and sometimes sentencing the offenders to death.
This appears to be the case here with Dr Li's treatment as well, the central government investigating abuse at the local level. Evidence:
BEIJING (AP) — China’s top Communist Party investigators are looking into “relevant issues raised by the public” about a whistleblower doctor who was threatened by police after publicizing his concerns about the new virus and has now died from it. The party’s announcement Friday came as the death toll in mainland China rose to at least 636. The outbreak has now infected more than 31,200 people worldwide.
3
@Thunder Road
Good observation.
1
@Chuck China's policies are top down. If the Central Government investigates someone it is because they are friends with someone who has too much power or wealth - Bo Xilai, Zhou Yongkang. etc. The "Don't Spread Rumors Policy" came from the central government. It is about controlling social outrage over protests and mas tragedies like 2019nCov, SARS, and the poorly constructed schools that killed kids and teachers by the hundreds during the earthquake etc.
8
"“Heroes don’t fall from the sky. They’re just ordinary people who stepped forward.”"
We could heed those lessons here. The president is praising what amounts to an antihumarian sacrificial lamb of an entire city, quarantined beyond belief, and left to die with few resources.
That isn't "appropriate governmental response." It's locking the barn door after the horse has escaped and letting the people trapped inside pay the price for the lockers.
My analogy may be twisted, but to see a US president praise a totalitarian society's response which has been late in coming and cruel to the nth degree is something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
The Chinese people are trying to speak up, for how long we don't know. But the cited lines above about heroes being ordinary folk that refuse to accept an alternate reality seem prophetic inthese scary times.
After all, when you're facing death, what would keep you from truth?
239
@ChristineMcM
"... and left to die with few resources."
I have read many of your comments and they are invariably interesting and apposite but I must question this statement. I am not sure to which city you refer but as far as I know no city in China is on complete lock down - nothing in, nothing out including food. If this were the case it would indeed be inhuman. But where is this happening?
5
@RHR Wuhan is locked down and there is concern there about sufficient food. I think you need to lighten up on the defense of the Chinese government, some of the things they are doing are working and others are counterproductive. The latter do indeed deserve criticism.
26
@RHR: If you have been reading all the articles on the approach of the Chinese government, they have essentially rounded up every person (checking temperatures daily of every resident) and those with symptoms are herded into vast dormitories of endless beds. The problem is, there is not enough food or medications to treat them. They are being sequestered in the interests of the 'nation', but it appears they have been left to die. This is inhumane and I wonder if this virus hadn't been publicized the way it had, and the US government wasn't able to extricate its US citizen-residents or vistors in time, if they would have been part of this citywide quarantine. Go back and refer to the NYT articles of a few days ago. Quarantine has trumped the delivery of resources. I don't pull facts out of the air.
37
While there is a general distrust between China and US (wars in Korea and Vietnam) were fought with each on opposing sides, there is mutual admiration between the Chinese people and Americans. I love and admire deeply the Chinese people and culture. What these people could accomplish without the “leadership” of a dictator would be amazing. I weep for the doctor and his family. He is a real hero along with the other healthcare workers that are on the frontlines with little support from the CCP. Chinese people, our prayers are with you.
7
It’s not only totalitarian regimes who sensor medical professionals. Wake up and look at our our own county! Tobacco, opioids and vaccine injuries are real.
6
@LP
Not to mention guns. Gun violence is a public health issue.
3
China's repugnant reprimand of the doctor and nurses who attempted to alert the public and the world about an epidemic about to unfold should not be forgotten. Just as elements of our own government sought to hide illegal activity, limit access to evidence and them reveal the identity of a key whistleblower, China sought to hide details of a viral epidemic at a point when it could have been isolated and contained. They then punished and ostrasized those seeking to alert the public. The resultant damage will be unfathomable, both in loss of human life and in economic decline. It is hoped future generations will learn from these disastrous mistakes.
315
@Ben Morris Remember the hurricane "report" with the sharpie pen? Just one example of how our dictator tried to alter the report of scientists. Our scientists are also suppressed when their results don't follow the republican line. Disaster will follow.
609
@Ben Morris
"at a point when it could have been isolated and contained"
You don't know that!
Just stop it.
@Ben Morris Trump pressuring the Ukrainians and the Chinese trying to hide an epidemic are not that comparable. The Chinese have no real legal system to protect them from the profits of wild game markets. If the CCP is not retried, this pandemic cycle will go on.
Sad. A young doctor gone, forced to silence by China, his country, when he knew he was right. Now dead. Condolences to Dr. Wenliang’s loved ones.
But the United States also has history of sorts. Ronald Reagan hid the AIDS epidemic, and his undercover cost lives of thousands - no treatment and death resulted. (Again, Bellevue, we honor you for your beloved honor through our country’s crisis back then)
Trump has cut back on the CDC staffing. What do you think that means?
Leave it to the US Republicans. We can’t help but compare to China’s huge mistake.
356
@MIMA Exactly.
When the coronavirus or some other epidemic affects the US, will all those who diss science and starve the CDC be comforted when all the CDC can offer is "thoughts and prayers". I suspect they will raise the loudest howl about how incompetent and uncaring the official response is.
42
@MIMA
China is a fascist state. It is about ten times worse than the US, if not a hundred. We delude ourselves to think that our agonies match those of the Chinese in any fashion.
18
@alyosha Currently the number of coronavirus cases in China is >100x more than the number in the US. No, the agony does not match. What should you do then?
3
This is what happens when a totalitarian regime cares more about its image and it’s own greed than the public welfare. This is what we are facing in this country, a president and a minority party that place their own survival above the welfare and the will of the people. We have a president and a Republican Party who are willing to destroy the environment and ignore science thereby placing the public health at great risk in order to pander to the fossil fuel and chemical industries.
574
and let US not forget, dismiss, or overlook,
that these personally unaccountable policymakers,
elected by neighbors, friends, family,
as well as strangers, are flawed human beings, as
each of US is, and were ENABLED to do what
THEY did, and not to do what they should be doing,
because of the complacency and the complicity of all too many!
All around US.
24
@Avatar this is a communist nation with zero free speech protections. I’m just a centrist democrat but you have dived into the deep end.
I’m pretty sure Trump isn’t the one yelling about how free speech needs to be reigned in on social media. He also isn’t calling for communism.
5
@Avatar "regime cares more about its image and it’s own greed than the public welfare"
That sounds a lot like the US and not just the current administration. Healthcare (or lack thereof), sacrificing young lives for for profit wars, environmental destruction (definitely worse under Trump), students being milked for money instead of worrying about getting a properly educated population, fossil fuel industry subsidies, etc.
36
In recent days we have the example of two men that have stood up to be counted for doing and saying the right thing.
Thank you Dr. Li and Mitt Romney.
21
Why do some news like to write like this: “The doctor, Li Wenliang, had been silenced by the police after warning about the new coronavirus that has killed hundreds in China and sickened thousands.”
This gives the impression the police silenced a whistleblower who talked about a disease that had killed hundreds when in fact no one died nor was the disease known when he started talking about it.
He was suspected of just spreading rumors which is a very common thing in and outside China. The proper way is of course to contact China’s CDC and not an online forum
3
The words are “has since killed “. He shared his concerns about a new disease with his medical school classmates. And you have a problem with this?
14
@AmateurHistorian You generally cannot trust an opaque system's reports as they are not accountable to international or even local scrutiny. This is the central problem with authoritarianism and why so many in the West fear the slow creep of authoritarianism here. You can trust the snake oil salesman of the world all you want - I will maintain a healthy skepticism of those who do not garner trust.
6
@Zejee
Yes, there is proper channel to report possible infectious disease and Internet forums isn’t one. If he reported through the proper channel, it would have been picked up sooner, the outbreak wouldn’t have been seen at a rumor/conspiracy at first.
3
Just as Jamal Kashoggi went missing, Jeffery Epstein committed suicide, Kim Jong-Un's brother was killed by reality show contestants, so to did Dr. Li Wenliang succumb to 2019-nCoV. I think the message was sent to future whistle blowers and holders of information that would compromise the State - and there is implicit support from the Trump administration for taking these types of barely covert actions.
9
The tragedy of Dr. Li Wenliang is a poignant but merely the latest example of the suppression of truth in China. Frank DiKotter's brilliant books on the Chinese Revolution, The Great Leap Forward, and the Cultural Revolution document the horrors of the Chinese Government as they implemented their ideological programs that led to the death and misery of hundreds of millions.
But China is just one example of the general principle: that totalitarian governments create reward systems that are driven by power and loyalty, with inconvenient facts being pushed aside and those that voice those facts being punished.
And it's not just "totalitarian" governments. Any government whose governance and policies are based on power and loyalty rather than facts is vulnerable; and its people will end up suffering. Current examples abound...
9
Trump and real scientists don't get along. Does anyone think Trump's partially staffed government of lackeys are prepared for a potential national disaster like this?
13
Haven’t read yet what happened to the local officials who forced him to sign a confession after he posted an alarm.
Meanwhile, if you ever think you’ve got it bad, think about the people on the cruise ship in Yokohama, stuck in their cabins with a deadly virus circulating fast through the ship’s ventilation system. If the Japanese weren’t so xenophobic they’d take them off that ship and put them in individual quarantine so at least they don’t infect each other. The Japanese response is actually worse than the Chinese because it goes to the highest levels of their government.
8
I saw an initial Chinese propaganda "fact sheet" show up on a FB page dedicated to Ex Pats in Portugal (a country where China is trying to make inroads). It was unattributed of course, but it compared the Corona virus favorably (if you can believe that) to the flu virus and to SARS. Most importantly it said that the US was spreading disinformation about the disease. A couple of days later it was replaced by a poster that looked identical, but had removed the SARS comparison. Still it stated a favorable comparison to the total deaths of the Corona virus and the flu without saying that Corona had a much higher (around 14 times) fatality rate. Early days.
Now our own President has stuck his big foot into the debate and pulled the spotlight over to himself. Like a true despot in the making, he validated Xi's excellent work and his ability to deal with this crisis. Right.
My earliest comment here when the Corona virus broke out was that Westerners have no idea how totalitarian states move in the background to control information and to save face. The fearful fog of false narratives. Whatever it takes. Save face, lose lives.
Great reporting in the Western news despite many attempts to suppress by Xi and associates.
8
Let the horrible way this "Whistle-Blower" was treated by the local government be a warning for all governments around the world, including (and especially) the current Trump administration and the Congressional Republicans. We all mourn the death of this true patriot who tried to do what was best for his countrymen only to be trashed by the ignorant bureaucrats who cared more about appearances than about the welfare of the people for whom they were supposed to be responsible. Their heads should roll in exchange for all the deaths that may have been prevented if the government acted faster to control this epidemic.
7
Look what happened and is happening to the whistleblower re Ukraine.
4
@ES
And to Col. Vindman, an American war hero.
2
the most brutal dictatorship of this time. world wake up!
1
All these people rallying for the "Cassandra" who warned about the Wuhan virus almost amounts to a Tiannemann Square moment, but it happened within the Chinese internet and without the bloodshed. For those mourning the good doctor's death, communicating sorrow and upset with the authorities reads like a cat and mouse game of who can be heard before being silenced.
What a strange quarrel the Chinese Communist Party would have with a citizen. The good Doctor Li alerts colleagues about a weird and mysterious virus, as anyone would be naturally inclined to do...it would have been irrational and illogical to keep silent. Yet, just two days after posting his alert, the state forced him, under threat of dissapearing into one of the "black" jail sites set up around the country, to recant his warning and declare himself a law breaker for issuing a warning. Almost too weird to be true.
And as if to model the Orwellian double-speak made famous in 1984, China actually has a "free speech" provision in its constitution but anyone with the audacity to think it a serious offer to the people is summarily censored.
7
More tragic proof that science denial results in death — which will mean nothing to republicans and anti-vaxxers, who share a love of ignorance and a hostility toward education.
9
@DH
not true...references please!
Let’s think back to Joseph McCarthy… This may very well turn out to be the “sir, have you no shame” moment for the Chinese government.
2
Long life and health: Mitt Romney, thank you for your courage
8
The Chinese Communist Party did cover up the virus until they signed the trade agreement with trump.
“A Chinese doctor who had reportedly tried to issue early warning about the coronavirus outbreak has died after contracting the virus while working at a hospital in Wuhan.”
Just as the question of a coverup is asked!
Too convenient to have this Doctor die. He honestly was trying to save lives and follow his Hippocratic oath.
We know trump knew about the outbreak before it was news. He is briefed about everything the American intelligence community is investigating, every day.
3
@DTMak Maybe so and the faithful farmers will just have to wait.
Get ready for this kind of silencing here in America, every time trump and his criminal cohorts don't like the message.
7
Dr. Li has become what all governments fear, a martyr. His death will transform China in the long run.
6
I was heart broken and deeply saddened to learn of Dr. Li's death. He was a hero. I have only contempt for the Chinese government, they are a disgrace.
5
the anti-vaxers/antiscience crowd and their enablers, will bring this mayhem to the world. pathogens don't wait for governments/rules/ beliefs/ cable news commentators!
9
Why does virtually each and every news story these days have to be followed, or accompanied, by another (several) about a "widespread outcry," people "speaking out against" something, or "reaction to [fill in the blank]"?
This line of reporting is justified in this case, it seems, but my concern is with the broader trend, where the main news story, and often the details about it, get submerged by reactions to the story or subsequent "outcries".
In most news today, demonstrations or protests are featured daily, but the underlying causes for the demonstrations --and the context for them -- often get under-reported, so news readers don't really have enough context or hard, factual reporting to understand how the protests relates to the actual news events that are the cause.
1
(Not necessarily for publication, just a 'journalism heads-up' request) - A fine article, except I think the main article should state within first few graphs that Dr. Li died 'from the virus' & readers should not have to click on "death" tab to find out How he actually died. I thought at first, the police killed him. Thanks, Terry (Texas)
3
What makes this even sadder, is that doctors in Washington State were able to save the first case in the Unites States with Remdesivir, and anti-viral drug that had been developed to treat Ebola, and though ineffective against Ebola is showing great promise against Corona. China is at this moment running tests with willing volunteers to see how Remdesivir does against Corona. How we wish they had started these trials a couple of days ago with Dr. Li the first one to get it.
7
Well, they can't punish him now. RIP, Dr.Li Wenliang, you did your duty to your patients and paid a terrible price for it.
At least people in China could ask for freedom of speech for five whole hours before the censor took them down.
I hope the people of Wuhan can honour Dr. Li by getting their government to acknowledge his heroism and apologise for treating him like a criminal, for the sake of his wife and children and his memory.
6
They can punish his family and cause dishonor to follow the next generations and ruin his reputation in history books and find something unsavory about him. Unfortunately. So We Need to Pressure the World! Give him A Special Award!
6
This is what happens when you have a totalitarian regime such as the PLA and a self-declared president for life. Move along. Nothing happening here.
2
It’s a good thing our leaders here in the west don’t continually lie every day about everything from climate change to international corruption and attack whistle blowers... oh wait. 
30
Stunning to see the comments dismissing the warnings and defending the US as "not as bad" as China. WHAT?
Why aren't Americans rising up to say, and THIS is why freedom of speech and rule of law are important! We will heed the warnings, courageously look for every weakness and repair the fabric of our free and fair society?
What happened to land of the free and home of the brave?
23
@Lotus:
What happened? It died under Trump.
11
A takeaway from this discussion is that we need to stop the gagging of scientific information on many topics.
We need to watch especially for climate change deniers in the US and state governments. For a number of years Rick Scott banned topic of climate change by those working in the Florida government and banned using the words “climate change.” It was painful to watch these poor state employees try to use other words in a speech. Worse though was the lack of attention to climate change in a state where we are on the frontline.
Fortunately that ban was overturned by the current governor.
Let’s continue to apply pressure to governments to stop gagging scientists and scientific information since it only makes the situation more dangerous and even deadly as in this example from China.
22
Petition to the White House to nominees Dr. Li WenLiang for the 2020 Peace Prize:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/nominate-chinese-coronavirus-whistle-blower-dr-li-wenliang-nobel-peace-prize
9
When the U.S. issues an official congratulation to the Chinese leader for the way this crisis is being handled - as happened the other day - it demonstrates our attitude toward China's twisted repressiveness as either obtuse or approving. It's important to recognize that (if one is interested in considering our actions multidimensionally). The metaphor that comes to my mind is two clammy fingers again pinching out a flame that the rest of the world used to take for granted. It used to be that the United States would be the automatic, unspoken counterpoint to a story like this one about what happened to Dr. Li. Today, in contrast, people around the world have learned that our Executive Branch plans to respond to those in the House who challenged the leader in much the same way as the Chinese authorities would be expected to do. Doublespeak sloganeering aside, do we wish to relinquish our claim to greatness, through our government's words and deeds?
13
Total respect for the late Dr. Li, and nothing but scorn for the heavy handed dopes who wished to censor him.
12
In a shrinking swamp where large animals crowd out smaller ones as water dries up, the rationalizers see only one alternative: get behind the biggest, baddest hippo or croc. And humans are no different in an arena of shrinking resources and limited maneuverability.
Here's the question, however. Are our elected representatives, many from gerrymandered districts and red states, only beholden to the far right or far left voters? It seems so. Politicians, unlike mathematicians and scientists, often rely too much on intuition, sacrificing principles and personal values to stay in the game. Mid-term to long-range, this kind of equivocation and cowardice will eventually be defeated. We see, as an example, how millions of Chinese have blasted their government on-line upon learning of the death of Dr. Li Wenliang who first identified the Corona Virus in a patient and was jailed for announcing his finding. The Communist Party only knows how to use a hammer on the population. No subtlety there. But people aren’t stupid, especially in an oppressive, authoritarian society. The truth will out. And it will out in our own society despite all of the GOP congressional representatives and senators up for reelection. People are fed up but often in different ways. Most people are fed up with cons and bullying and cowardice.
12
@bkbyers Very well written. Thank you !
1
Regardless of politics, we are all humans. I wish China quick success in combating this disease.
10
Expressing their grief at the doctor’s death is one thing, but openly criticizing the Chinese government for their colossal mistake at trying to sweep this under the covers is another matter all together.
What will Beijing's response be? Will the "highly censored" Wall the Chinese government erected to keep freedom of speech in check finally begin to show its cracks?
This Coronavirus Outbreak could very well lead to a mass revolt in the streets?
6
Of all the wonders that I have yet heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come. - Shakespeare.
3
How do we know, absolutely know, that the virus cannot be transmitted in a container coming across the ocean? 2, maybe 2 1/2 weeks ago, 60 people infected (according to China). Yesterday, 27,000 (?), 600 dead. That's a pretty exponential number. I wonder what the real story and numbers are? And within 1 or 2 days of the first reports, they announced it was traced to an open air exotic animals-for-food market. Riiiiggghht. You just never know, this could be the end of put way of life as we know it. I have no faith at all in China's government, and have heard nothing about the Biological Warfare Tech center in Wuhan wither.
2
@BorisRoberts
Quote: "and have heard nothing about the Biological Warfare Tech center in Wuhan either."
You clearly have heard, or you wouldn't be writing about it here. There are conspiracy theories about the Wuhan lab flying fast and furious all over the internet, and like other conspiracy theories about other subjects, there's no evidence for them.
3
Unfortunately, America is more and more looking like China, instead of the other way around.
15
If the Chinese government declares that there are 600 dead you can rest assure that there are many more that are not being reported.
7
@Dan I heard on the news from a scientist who has worked in China that statistics like that can be assumed to be at least 1 week old at the time the govt announces them.
3
curious photo published with story in LA Times this morning about the latest "chartered" flights out of Wuhan...the photo of a 747 on the ground at USMC Air Station Mirimar is a plane with no Registration Number affixed on the tail or fuselage that is clearly visible as required.
2
Recall that a few months ago our president reprimanded NOAA for their temerity in correcting his hurricane forecast. I refer to his sharpie addition to the NOAA official forecast track. it is no surprise that the president has great respect for Xi, Putin etc. He envies their power and seeks to emulate it here in the US.
18
When Trum vows that people will pay for speaking truth to power, all Americans should be aghast. Read the news from China and shudder.
14
Safeguards against a deadly virus run the gamut. If the virus has a very low death rate, like the common cold, minimal precautions are necessary. If it has an extremely high death rate, like Eboloa, drastic precautions are called for.
At first, the authorities had no idea of the coronavirus's death rate. And even now, it remains a question mark. Before the doctor disclosed the virus, routine precautions were in effect, though the appropriate precautons were unknown. After the doctor's disclosure, precautions approached the opposite extreme, causing widespread panic among the public based on the unfounded fear that the death rate was extremely high.
From a public health standpoint, the doctor shifted the paradigm from one extreme to the other-- existing negligence gave way to panic.
It is unknown whether the doctor improved the health situation or made it worse because the severity of the virus remains unknown. But the notion that disclosure was surely in the interest of the public is speculative at best.
1
Our purchase of Chinese goods supports this government's misbehaviors, just as the purchase of Japanise products supports illegal whaling. We have the power of the American dollar to effect tremendous change worldwide but instead, we simply ignore and condone. Unfortunately, some American leaders admire the power authoritarian governments hold over their people.
9
It is horribly sad to hear that this brave young doctor died trying to save lives but even more horrifying that he was silenced in his efforts to warn the public. Had people listened and the government acted, hundreds more lives would have been saved and tens of thousands could have avoided this illness.
Those who are saying, watch out these affects of authoritarian rule could come to the US are overlooking the fact that corporations are getting away with silencing the results of research that threatens their business profits.
That is why scientists trying to warn people about the effects of pollution, global warming and other kinds of environmental and health disasters are being ignored and the research, legislation and public action that would address the problems they point out, are being underfunded, rolled back or cancelled altogether.
21
China is truly a government of the people, for the people and by the people.
@S. C. The Chinese Government did NOTHING WRONG>
It was a PERFECT CALL.
1
Silencing Dr Li was a mistake of monumental proportions. That the truth is more important than propaganda is a lesson that President XI Jinping and President Trump would do well to learn.
23
Imagine if Dr. Li Wenliang remained silent. Where would we be with the spread of Coronavirus at this point. The magnitude, the multiples infected may have been a thousand times worse. The spread of the virus would be far more reaching. This single person's bravery to date may have easily saved thousands. Most certainly set a course for awareness, prevention and the medical research clock has begun far sooner.
10
This may well be the straw that breaks the back of the CPC camel's back. If Tencent actually posted the real death toll a couple of days ago, Mr Xi is going to have his hands full and I doubt that the entire Red Army and police force will be able to control the backlash. At the very least this may end his leader for life position.
6
It's chilling to hear what the people of China are going through with no free speech. I feel for them. Their WeChat posts have a poetic quality. I hope they get their whistleblower protections, nobody should have to live as they do, censored to the point of self-harm.
16
@Nicole
How is it possible that people in our world don't know what happens in communist Countries ?
Are they really "blinded" by their own freedom ?
And they call Trump a "dictator".....
1
@Nicole Smeeding Donald Trump wants you to live under the same conditions and Mark Zuckerberg seems to have no problem abetting him
3
Best be careful in China. Make remarks to your children and they'll be made to rat you out to your school teachers. Or vice versa: tell your pupils anything the reflects badly on the regime, they'll tell their parents. The spies (which are everywhere, along with the facial recognition cameras) are everywhere. You'll be socially rated.
Everything is controlled. It seems perhaps people can still possibly outsmart the government.
3
@Syed - I feel sad that this is happening to you. I have traveled alone in North Africa and had many wonderful experiences with Muslim women and families.
But what is happening to you in the US can also happen to average Americans due to facial recognition software and mass surveillance. The hatred and vitriol you speak of is very real, fanned by the flames coming from the top. There seems to be a perverse excitement in the politics of division and exclusion which is not what our country is supposed to stand for.
Who’s next to be put in one of those cages?
The next person who speaks out?
With any previously unknown virus, the potential risks associated with inaction are enormous. Even a few weeks can make a huge difference. I compliment the NYT for carefully covering this outbreak.
Too bad we live in the age of Trump, the wannabe dictator who overshadows too much of our lives. This is the top news story.
27
Dear Lu Yuan,
You are so brave to go into the city and report their lives. Thank you so much for your report!
22
The Chinese government requiring "apologies" for bogus things, has been a way to keep their citizens in line with a rule of terror.
Not speaking about things that could reflect badly on China, is a way the regime keeps their self esteem. It is like an advertising company that praises their product, when that product harms people. I feel for the Chinese people themselves, who have lost a courageous leader and doctor; by attempting to covering up the epidemic, the government is responsible for this awful outbreak. It could have been confined to a smaller number of people, once the hero doctor discovered how the virus was infecting others. Truth is the ally of a good working government.
20
@K.M Truth is also the first enemy of an autocrat. As we see in the U.S. and China.
4
He was silenced.
3
@Patron Anejo While many of us do not support Trump, he is not suppressing signs of illness and has acted appropriately. Yep, our country needs to get a back bone, particularly the Republicans, but we are no where near what China is doing.
1
It's sad that this doctor had to die in order for his fellow people. I understand that china has it's own ruling and way of doing things but when it comes to a epidemic of people around the world losing their live when they could have stopped this before it got this bad. It's not fair to people that we have to hear about it when the virus ends up in their own backyard's. It's also not right that you only are checking the chinese people for the virus and not everybody that is coming from the infected areas. I pray that use as people not of colors or ethnicities but as human beings do better in communication to avoid further disasters such as this one.
6
This may be the way of the world in countries governed by tyrants. So sad for this hero and his family. And so fearful for what is happening in our country, low led by a tyrant as well.
37
I personally would be very skeptical about deaths reported especially if they come out of Red China. Many of the Chine-American citizens who have relatives in the mainland are informed these deaths and infected should be multiplied by a factor or 5 (at minimum) or more in order to get a better idea how the Red Chinese leadership are quelling or distorting these deaths and infected. There is currently lots and lots of infected who are visiting their herbalists just to try anything until validated cures come to market. Red China could be hundred more portable hospitals and it wouldn't be enough for the infected. Sad! ... maybe now, their leadership will permanently ban and sale & consumption of bats, rats, and cats!
8
"the government mishandled the situation by not sharing information earlier and by silencing whistle-blowers."
This is China's modus operandi and has been for years, nothing has changed. There are reports that they knew about the virus sometime late Fall and ignored it.
13
@Jacquie
Quote: "There are reports that they knew about the virus sometime late Fall and ignored it."
Where is the evidence for this? Can you provide a source? A link?
There were reports that some physicians in China suspected this virus in mid-December. I've heard nothing about "sometime late Fall" and would like to see evidence.
6
@Lisa Simeone
Mid-December is late Fall.
2
@Jacquie I doubt the government will give up power without bloodshed.
1
It’s very possible that Dr. Li Wenliang’s own immune response to the coronavirus was suppressed by stress and humiliation in the middle of the night at the hands of police and, unbelievably, medical officials.
He was only 34, younger than most victims, and he may have recovered and still been with us had he been treated properly and with a modicum of respect at that crucial time at the end of December.
A physician MD
75
@srwdm First off, thanks for clarifying you're a "physician" MD, because MD by itself can mean a lot of things. We don't know the actual cause of death, and for all we know, he could have also had an immune overreaction from a cytokine storm.
2
@srwdm
Your insight is even more tragic and disturbing.
3
Who asked the police to silence the doctor？Then who asked the person to ask the police to do so？When we follow up the chain of command, it's easy to see why China should be very nervous now. The regime is at a crossroads. It needs to change. The outcome is going to have a huge impact on the future of China and the world as well. While we condemn the police and those higher up who should be held accountable, we need to ask ourselves, how can we have a positive influence on China on its way to a more open and transparent society？
13
This actually gives me great hope for this country. I am sure many people have been frightened over the acquiescence to President Trump’s threats around impeachment, especially to Senator Romney. It’s so hard not to be scared when a person with the power of the military and covert actions calls people speaking out against him a “traitor” and a “Democrat secret asset.” Alongside the President’s lawyers going right up to the edge of arguing “What is good for the President is good for the country” we see movement to where our government may soon no longer demand loyalty to the country but loyalty to the leaders themselves.
But those who stand against the government leaders in China remind us all that we are neither powerless nor excused from stopping tyranny. The real power still lies with ordinary people, even in places like China. And here.
29
Taiwan's electoral model will eventually become China's.
Phase One will be the Chinese People's demand for Freedom of Speech.
Which only works when you can vote for the candidate you want, not the candidate the Party wants you to want.
2047. That's when China will be a liberal democracy. Just in time for Hong Kong to be the Asian Capital. Fully Democratic.
9
I think that Dr. Li is indeed a true hero. We must always be truthful-the consequences of any interference in reporting about medical illness is pure evil. I am very concerned that Dr. Li did not die of coronavirus. This picture itself looks very odd. He does not look to be struggling to breathe-his mouth is closed-despite having an oxygen mask on. He looks distinctly afraid in my mind. His course of illness is not typical for C-virus as we know it nor is he 60 years and above as most patients have been that died. Healthcare is a human right and honesty and freedom of speech are imperative. Dr. Li died trying to save people-there is no greater hero.
14
@Maria Saavedra Now you posing doubt about the good doctor's death; did he know more than was let on, and did he die of a cause other than the actual virus? Sinister.
2
Dr. Li who gave his life for others, deserves to be honored by the people.
Maybe, if the leaders had acted appropriately with open mindedness, he could have lived and helped to care for others.
It would do them well, to consider a change of philosophy for the future.
9
I suppose it might be true that in an open society, with a free press and open expression, resiliency is high, in the sense that problems can be identified and addressed rapidly.
In an authoritarian society, resiliency is at a minimum, and problems are not addressed until they are large problems, and then only by whistleblowers and the sheer scope of disaster.
8
Something is fishy here with the way he died. He looked way too young and healthy to have died from the Coronavirus. So many reports of the virus affecting those with weak immune system tends to be elder or terminally ill. Also there have been over 8 people in Thailand and 1 in US that were cured from the Coronavirus using modified AIDS and Cancer treatment medications.
Why wasn't Dr. Li one of the ones they tried this on? China government already knew about these antibiotics as they filed patients declaring the application of those medication to safeguard the use of the medication in China.
9
'Collective conscience'--what a nice thought. Could it find expression here in the US, in the midst of the creeping authoritarianism of the Trump-branded Republican party?
20
@rulonb Yes. The collective conscience here is that leadership is above the law, destroying our constitution and institutions is great, that climate change need not be admitted or addressed, that people of color belong in prison or out of the country, that facism is the preferred form of government, that you can do anything and if you make money in the process and hurt someone else all the better.
Tragedy of an entire nation. I sincerely hope something good comes out of this. RIP Dr. Li and thank you for your courage to speak out.
16
So, if Dr. Li Wenliang had not leaked information about the coronavirus, the world would have not known about it until people became sick and died. He was probably killed by the Chinese government. Thank you.
18
Rest in peace, Dr. Li!
15
Under Trump and his minions (and there seem to be quite a few) we are quickly moving away from democracy toward the exact totalitarianism we see in China. Are we really a nation of racists and xenophobes and homophobes ? It sure looks that way.
16
Put this together with Hong Kong protest and is it a recipe for freedom, liberty, the Magna Carta, to inevitably break through?
6
This unprecedented outpouring of grief is undermining a very repressive regime. My heart goes out to the people of China, and elsewhere who are facing this virus.
From the article: “I love my country deeply,” read one post under that topic. “But I don’t like the current system and the ruling style of my country. It covered my eyes, my ears and my mouth.”
There is a well known line from a Leonard Cohen song: "There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in."
27
What worries me is hearing that "Chinese nationals" are being checked for the virus. Why are we acting as if no one else could have symptoms? Many folks go to China these days - our economy is based on items made in China, so white, black, brown or blue - check the person out. Look at the passport - have you been to China lately? You need to be checked out. This is when racism can kill. That cruise ship coming in to Bayonne should have all the folks checked. Just sayin'.
13
A True Hero wo tried to save the world from this epidemic but was silenced by the State. That's a man worth our respect; not a dmillionaine who tossed a ball into a basket.
15
Let this serve as a warning for any future totalitarian regimes in the United States. Censorship always fails eventually — usually after national tragedies. Loose lips do not sink ships.
11
And Xi wonders why nobody believes the numbers and the narrative coming out of China? You can't blame the West for this one...
10
@Dolphin -replacement by automation you mean!
Most of the companies are simply automating their factories- however it behooves the current administration to point the finger at the “other” and say they stole your job! Now the jobless have somebody to blame and the 1% can happily collect their dividends and get even richer. And btw, the jobless folk will vote for the 1% and perpetuate the cycle of reducing Medicare, Social Security, etc.
Who would have thought, a respected professional, currently chairman-dictator of the Communist Party, Xi Jinping, could be such an obtuse tyrant, silencing a physician that tried to alert us to the crisis brought up by the Coronavirus. Shame on him. How Trumpian could he be, by trying to hide the truth, and causing so much suffering and premature deaths?
14
China needs more heroes like Dr. Li and we need more heroes like Mitt Romney.
37
If it wasn't for that cult he belongs to, I might be able to vote for him. As it currently sits, I've studied what the Mormon beliefs are, and to truly believe their vision of heaven and earth, you have to suspend your common sense. For that reason alone, I cannot vote for the man.
3
I understand your sentiment but LtVindman is a true hero who put himself at risk. Romney just did his job. These days I guess that stands out as being above the crowd; But he didn’t put himself on the line as did the NSC Lieutenant.
1
To Dr. Li’s family: I am sorry for your loss. Dr. Li is a global hero, he was a very brave man.
16
will his wife and children suffer the consequences of his disobediance?
7
How many people died today from influenza and sepsis, or raged online about Trump’s acquittal, but coronavirus is still headline news?
1
Trump's hero, a master of fake news, willing the stop truth from getting to the people.Is there any real difference between these two pathological liers? Trump driven by his malignant narcissism, Xi JinPing driven by his demonic ideology...
7
The extremely cowardly Reps, not THE Senate, may have absolved the Russian Puppet but We The People will not forget. Paraphrasing the old English rhyme, ♪♫ remember, remember to vote in November ♪♫
4
Thank you, Dr. Li, for trying against the odds to heal and save lives. "Heroes don’t fall from the sky. They’re just ordinary people who stepped forward.” In remembrance of those who are silenced and where wild swans fear to soar, this fitting tribute is food for the soul.
18
And how about the Men fighting for our country sustaining head injury and our leader declaring their injury as a headache.
there are numerous incident where the narrative has been changed to cover the real problem .
Slippery slope , where will it take us ?
17
@t You are correct, there's always a slippery slope. The injured US service personnel are no doubt receiving medical care. It's a shame that you cannot understand that if Trump blows this up into a major incident due to these injuries he will have no choice but a massive retaliation against Iran of the shock and awe variety. If this is what you'd like to see you might be better off reading Fox News than the NYT.
1
And you are correct ,but
was it really necessary to say anything about our military men ?
They would have suffered this in silence with dignity as they do.
Wonder how many men have suffered quietly for our country not wanting to receive praise but not disregard.
3
@Mike F.
Maybe. A plausible argument or another Trumpian coverup? Do remember that Trump is a malignant liar? Like the little boy who cried wolf, he will not be believed if ever he does tell the truth.
2
I just finished the article by Matt Richtel about WHO working with the social media giants to combat misinformation about this health crisis. While I liked the article, and am encouraged by social media doing a once in a lifetime right thing, I do think it lacked introspection.
There are comments on this very column alluding to conspiracy theories, notably that the virus was created in a secret lab. The USAToday headlined an article saying it was much less fatal or contagious than the flu. You yourselves virtually began your coverage with a social justice laced diatribe against quarantine.
It's wonderful that WHO is working with the companies from whom half of the world gets their information to make sure the information is correct. It would be nice if the other companies that sit in judgment of those companies, like the NYTimes, would do their part. You are quite ruthless to police opinions and comments when your values are being criticized or when you perceive them as impolitic. But you pass right through a comment that spreads conspiracy theories as long as it doesn't contain social justice red flags or get rude.
You can do better. So can USAToday.
6
@ondelette
It's wonderful that WHO is working with the companies from whom half of the world gets their information to make sure the information is correct.
LOL!
Facebook has a gigantic anti-vaxxer group that pumps out misinformation daily. They vet NOTHING for truth. Recently resulted in a small child's death because Mom wouldn't give her tamiflu. And your point is?
1
In this article below, it is mentioned that he was not given the best care he should have been given. Many vital equipment he needed were transferred from his hospital where he was being treated to other hospitals. It's in Chinese. https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/I1J3wCbfbMP7AecP1_Ie2A
6
why is this article not translated so that chinese people understand that we stand with them? even though their leaders are oppressive the chinese are individuals and need the support of the nytimes.
12
Quarantining thousands on cruise ships seems like a perfect place to incubate disease. Does anyone with medical/health knowledge have something to do with this, what seems like a no brain, or at least hare brained ,idea?
7
@kirk
Would you rather have the people who have come from the center of the epidemic be allowed to leave and mix with the general population? How many thousands of people are on the ship, and how many thousands more would they have contact with while potentially infectious?
Infectious disease is complicated here by the long prodromal period in which people who have been exposed to the new Coronavirus do not show any symptoms of being infected. Think about how many people that you come into contact with in 2 weeks time.
6
@Diane Short of taking the boat out to deep water and sinking it with all on board which is what this is tantamount to, there is a more effective and humane way of dealing with contagious disease...albeit more expensive. Think ebola.
1
@kirk
Absolutely right. It seems like a thoughtlessly created test tube. Quite similar to Wuhan. Then best would be to dock at a sparsely populated place and separate the already sick from those who are not. The ship can be disinfected and cleaned. Make shift accommodation can be erected for the healthy to be quarantined with a bit more open space. Food is separate, no one is breathing into a common vent system. There is an entire world of possibilities. All it takes is people who can plan alongside epidemiologists......and money. I am guessing the underlying profit margin is the only decision for the shoddy treatment of passengers.
For those of you who are praising how effective the Chinese government is and who are saying that the US institutions (historically or currently) are no better than Chinese's, here is some relevant information.
1. Before Jan 1st, eight people including Doctor Li warned about an outbreak of SARS. They were all arrested, and the major media outlets, including the national media, labeled them "instigators" and "rumor mongers."
2. As more cases were discovered, the Chinese people were told by several high-ranked "medical experts" on major media outlets, that the virus is not contagious.
3. When asked why Wuhan government was not responsive in time, the Wuhan mayor said that he cannot do much because the Central govenment agency (think of it as CDC) did not confirm the case yet. Earlier and meanwhile, the governments were busy with doing cover-ups.
14
The question card proffered by the police, the requirement to answer affirmatively with a red thumbprint, and the groundless detention if a citizen does not do what the state demands are all desired and will be topics at an upcoming Trump cabinet meeting. That is, after they are each done fawning over the great leader.
10
And then there's this, near the very bottom of the article:
"It’s too early to tell whether the online anger and frustration will amount to much."
Revolt, my foot. But congratulations, NYT, for garnering a few more clicks with your sensational headline.
4
The information so far has been that only the old and weak are in danger of dying from the virus. Dr. Wenliang appeared to be neither. So who is not telling the truth?
6
@MF_O:
No one has claimed that "only the old and weak are in danger of dying from the virus." It's been claimed that the old and weak are more vulnerable; that's all.
The man who died in the Philippines was 44. The man who died in Hong Kong was 39. They might have had underlying medical conditions; we don't know.
Dr. Li was perhaps more exposed than others since he was a physician on the front lines. He also might have been exhausted.
Bottom line is we still don't know enough about this virus yet.
I had pneumonia once and was so sick I could barely move. I can see how people can easily die of it. And with the Wuhan coronavirus, pneumonia is one of the dangers.
10
@Lisa Simeone Fair enough. I don't mean to scaremonger.
2
The world is actually lucky that the corona virus is not more deadly. It's a warning of what's to come, and a much deadlier virus is out there that will eventually spread.
I have zero confidence that our criminal, corrupt, and crony-filled Cabinet is capable of dealing with any real emergency. We are in a dangerous period for the US and the world.
Does it make you feel good, Senate Republicans?
23
Going after a whistleblower? Republicans are you taking note?
9
This can happen here, in the United States.
12
Dr. Wenliang was a hero. His country is surely very proud of him, even if his country's government is not.
10
I have never seen my Wechat Moments, populated by well-educated professionals and businessmen in Shanghai, so united behind mourning one person and the loss of freedom of speech before, in the history of Wechat. The number of posts decrying censorship and the government's response is unprecedented too.
The government here does not fear when it is the poor, the religious or ethnic minority, the migrant workers who are silenced. But when it is the elites who run the commercial and industrial powerhouses of Shanghai who dare to protest? Because this epidemic can strike at all of us, regardless of wealth or connections or Party membership? The party will fear and listen.
As for songs, for Li Wenliang, I am reminded of the Civil War song John Brown's Body. To the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic:
"He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
His soul is marching on
Glory, glory hallelujah
His soul is marching on"
10
I wonder if they same could happen in the US?
US leadership's main care is the price of assets and the stock market. That is from the White House to Wall Street.
If they can cover up and hide what is going on as much and as long as possible, that helps hold up all the spinning plates as long as possible.
Another issue is that the US has no national health care system, which moreover is made more disorganised across the country given states, cities, and private hospitals and doctors all do their own uncoordinated thing.
Although many have health cover and access to hospitals among the best in the world, many others have no, little or restricted access to healthcare. Large sections of the population probably have access to healthcare as low as one might find in Africa or India, if poor, their medical plans have limits, if co-pay too high, or if just try put a sniffle off so as not to invite insurance companies to increase future costs of cover.
American are also less likely to acquiesce to officialdom that may try restrict their movements and actions - imagine if the government tried to quarantine NYC? One thing China, Japan, etc have going for them is that the population is likely to co-operate with officialdom.
Ironically, the US might be one of the least prepared and most vulnerable societies to a real serious virus breakout, if not this one.
But stock prices will rise on Fed and White House intervention as long as possible, so don't worry about that.
7
@BritAbroad
One things for sure: it would never happen in the UK.
The virus would die waiting on a gurney in the hallway at a NHS hospital.
1
My dear friend who is sick in London now thanks the NHS for the care she is receiving. And if she dies (stage 4 cancer) she won’t leave behind a mountain of medical bills, like my cousin did when she died of cancer.
4
@Zejee I'm not sure the UK's NHS could cope with a catastrophe either. Brilliant people work there who do their best. But a typical British bureaucratic mess (being polite). Though at the end of the day would rather be in the UK that the US in the event of a catastrophe - unless I was part of the 1% in the US, that is.
3
Unilateral decision making governments seem to be more efficient in today's day and age. But when things like this happen it is evident they are flawed. They might be able to control the economy, the information ecosphere and the people. But one of those can't be controlled for ever and thats the people... if you look at China's future there will 100% be a civilian uprising its just a matter of when. By then it will be clearly obvious why this method of governance will never work.
2
here's hoping that some good will come from this tragedy. maybe the people of mainland china will follow hong kong's example. the ccp's grip seems to be slipping.
1
I don't understand the back and forth in this article between 'Mr. Li' and Doctor Li. Li was a doctor and should be referred to as Doctor Li.
By the way, I heard of this virus in my news feed just after Christmas and before New Years have watched this illness snowball into an international crisis while the Chinese government did little to stop this highly contagious disease until a couple of weeks.
Under our current administration, I don't see us doing much better.
24
@Sasha Love Referring to a person by their title of Doctor is a cultural thing. My husband is a Dr. but not of Medicine. In Germany and other places in the world people use that title. What my husband knows and understands about the health, infection, disease, he knows most from me, other than the basic niceties of covering your mouth when you sneeze/cough, and wash your hands before you eat. Still, he has earned that title and it took him just as long as someone in medicine who also wants a doctorate. It is not a sign of disrespect to call my husband Mr. in the USA, because that is USA Culture. I would assume the same is true in China regarding the seemingly interchangeable titles commonly used.
2
@Sasha Love the Times has a policy of not using titles after first mention. People the Times quotes use whatever they use. And then some people are considered special and get titled even where others don't. It's like the Times' policy on not using Germanic past participles even though they might be standard English. Suffice it to say, no matter what the Times banishes, nothing is ever truly forbidded.
1
This is where the country is headed under the Trump administration’s policy of covering up and minimizing problems and then punishing anyone who defies it. We cannot trust what our government tells us about real threats.
36
Remember Hurricane Katrina. The U.S is not immune to turning a deaf ear to warnings about an impending crisis.
37
@T. Varadaraj Also under a Republican POTUS
5
Words are mightier in uniting a people, social media is a better paper. This is the face of a people who are woken up. Aware of what extents an authoritarian government will go to maintain their supremacy. It is also a clear lesson for us here. We are a divided country where half the people want an authoritarian regime. Come November, we must thwart their efforts and stay free.
Fight for your freedom, China, the world is watching, waiting to hear your voices.
11
@Meena: why do you feel the need to encourage social unrest in other countries? Most people in Mainland China feel perfectly free and are happy to be lifted out of poverty by a semi-capitalist government.
The more the world sees about the US under Trump the more the world sees the hypocrisy.
4
Just received a picture from a Wuhan friend of Li Wenliang, of him, son, and beautiful wife smiling brightly in their living room – a young loving family destroyed now by the affliction Dr. Li hoped to overcome and conquer for others. How powerful the impact of that image words cannot capture.
Let this trauma and others pass quickly the only hope.
4
Dr. Li more than merits an entry in Eduardo Galeano's book Mirrors.
2
Interestingly, the doctor himself did not complain, but was even planning to return to serve in the hospital as soon as he recovered. The BBC reports that the local authorities apologised to him once they realised that he had been right.
I don’t understand why these reports all focus on the negative. Of course there is some, but there is a lot of community spirit in mainland China and many medical staff are self-sacrificially volunteering to help.
11
@Andrew As someone from mainland China, I hope that you could figure out the situation more before you judge others. The doctor is a hero, and we cannot praise him enough.
But this is not the time to praise the Chinese community spirit. CCTV and other major national outlets labeled him a "rumor monger" and never apologized. The irony in this---truth is being treated as rumor---angers the Chinese people.
5
Last night's US news:
"Attorney General William Barr has issued new restrictions on opening investigations into politically sensitive individuals or entities, including a requirement that he approve any inquiry into a presidential candidate or campaign."
That HE approve. One politically-driven, government official making a decision that affects and (mis)-informs the whole nation. And by extension, the whole world. Tick-tock.
87
@Tanner This is alarming.
10
The photo of Dr. Li , his eyes sending a message to us , brought me to tears . Good men that speak out for the good of the country and its people are needed everywhere .
His face will be forever in my memory.
20
Writing angry comments online is what now passes for a revolt? Our masters couldn't be any more pleased!
A revolt would be overthrowing the CCP and Xi-- THAT'S a revolt.
8
@Sixofone on the other hand, angry comments and loss of confidence in the regime are exactly the first stage of Crane Brinton's anatomy of a revolution.
6
What we are seeing in the procedures of the Chinese state to stop the coronaviruss is a totalitarian state in action. First the communist government of China silences the canary in the coal mine, a doctor who first warned of the virus then mass, followed by incarceration of anyone with a fever and finally the lock down of whole communities. Shades of 1984.
7
@paulpotts
Li is a hero to me for being a doctor in trying times, but curtailing rumors is becoming an issue in the world of social media. Dr. Li was sharing with friends it’s just in the PRC nothing online goes unobserved and at that point no one had labeled the virus for action although it was soon passed on as ‘of concern.’
The media will run with this one and perhaps they should but it is not a uniquely Chinese issue. Li did not make it an issue worth pursuing.
1
It's so sad - a courageous doctor who gave his life by following his oath to treat the ill to the best of one's ability.
I don't believe Americans realize the oppression the Chinese people endure with such a menacing, threatening government.
It's Communist China - remember that. The government is insidious and has no regard for humanity. It's an autocratic, murderous regime that will tolerate no opposition.
The spread of the virus is directly related to the Chinese government's suppression of data. The censorship is shameful and disgraceful, and was most likely a catalyst resulting in the doctor's and other deaths.
A very sad day for the world to see such ignominy.
17
I mentioned to a coworker how sad I felt about reading about the doctors death. My coworker in a fairly condescending tone asked me, “do you even know his name?” I replied that I did not, but that it doesn’t stop me from being sad that someone who tried to do the right thing became a victim of tyranny’s ignorance. I see a glimpse of our American future in what China is currently experiencing and it frightens me. I’m hearing it more and more from people. Tow the line! Don’t disagree with the president! As we continue to bend to the will of corporations, I hope that we always remember that the people ARE the government.
32
I am Chinese born outside of China, my parents escaped poverty in China. In the 60s and early 70s my parents were not allowed to visit their families in China. It was only after Nixon’s visit they finally obtained their visas.
When they were there, they found a better living condition for their families, everyone had food and nobody starving. Yes, China after being invaded and occupied by foreigners for decades, was in OK shape. Many felt good about the Communist regime.
For us foreigners it is difficult to grasp that the Chinese people don’t fight for their freedom, but they don’t know that Chinese people never had freedom. From white people to Japanese control time, people were drugged and starved, but since the communist party people lived.
10
The GOP and all conservatives who support Trump's push for authoritarianism should heed the warning of the Chinese people. The equality of a virus strips the pretenses of superiority.
Trump and much of our Country's family wealth envy China's control; they don't appreciate China's civilization has evolved both structurally and genetically under a centralized agrarian culture for millenniums. America is a vastly different story, and while a substantial minority of America is experiencing a period akin to domestication under Trump, even these poor souls will eventually rebel against the misguided leadership of a clenched fist.
11
The Communist Party of China is the largest and most oppressive terrorist organization in world history. By censoring information of vital public information, jailing critical journalists, and executing thought criminals, they are keeping hundreds of millions of people in ignorance and allowing dangerous catastrophes like this to happen. Let this be a wake-up call to what is happening in our own country under a dictatorial “president.”
8
Trump praised Xi Jinping’s handling of this epidemic. No doubt, he’s envious of Xi’s censorship and propaganda powers. Stretching the boundaries of a NOAA hurricane map with a sharpie is so minor league.
12
Corruption flourishes in the darkness, which is why autocrats from Beijing to Washington, DC, muzzle and denigrate the free press and flood the public zone with lies, half-truths and propaganda, the real fake news. But as the coronavirus epidemic in China makes clear, darkness and corruption have a high price.
10
Possibly mainland Chinese will understand what HK has been telling them for months. Suppressing truth and freedom of speech is a wakeup call to save your life.
13
How poetic that the universe has provided the Chinese people with only three syllables, “Dr. Li”, with which to batter a toxic regime that has taken away countless (upon countless) volumes of free speech. I hope Dr. Li does continue to burn brightly in people’s minds, and that he becomes a change agent in ways he never could have imagined. For everyone’s sake.
3
Note to the Chinese People: The CCP is responsible for Dr Li’s treatment, and their regard for him reflects their regard for you, as confirmed by the “quarantine” being imposed in Wuhan (and likely elsewhere).
There are 1.32 billion of you, and only 80 million of them. You are in control, not them. If morning else, I hope this ongoing tragedy awakens you to that reality.
My heart goes out to the Chinese people suffering from this illness, and the losses it has brought.
3
In the world of communist,dictatorial,military & Islamic totalitarian regimes,such things happens. Punish the people who raises voices against their wrongs,simply alarm the people against any type of dangers ya the victims of crimes instead the criminals who committed heinous crimes/acts against girls/women. When people succumbs to such rogues/powers,they pay the price. Divided they fall is the truth & people need to remember it well simply with unity to throw the crooks out of power.
2
It's always been hard to be an antelope or a frog or a rabbit. But the reason it's so hard to be a human is because of what we do to one another, not to mention the creatures.
2
DJT spoke to Pres Xi and congratulated him on handling of this virus. DJT would also like "whistleblowers" to be silenced. DJT would like to be Pres of a country that suppressed free speech and freedom of the press. China will pay for this now and many more times in the future.
8
So much for the apologists for the authoritarian regime in China who have claimed for years that idea of the primacy of “individual human rights” is culturally specific to the West and has little cultural resonance in Asian societies. Turns out they really are universal. But I think most of us knew that.
8
My condolences to Dr. Li's family on his untimely and tragic death. Truly a hero! RIP
7
Trump likes authoritarians, hates the free press and deals constantly in misinformation. And his approval rating has increased during the impeachment hearing and trial.
So tell me again how much Americans value freedom of speech?
14
Many of the themes mentioned in this story remind me of the USA. Trumps shameless and endless pursuit of our hero whistle blower. And the official dogma let’s just say more positive things and not harp on the negative. Sounds like so many southerners who claim the civil war wasn’t really about slavery but states rights. So sad.
13
And trump praises China’s response. Just the way the police came after this doctor they’ll be coming for you here if you speak out against guns, warn about climate change or demand health care.
10
This is exactly why Trump's anti-science agenda is so dangerous to our well-being. Leaders with pathological narcissism and a grandiose over-estimation of their own competence don't realize how much they don't know.
Americans who still support our autocratic leader are endangering the lives of all of us!
39
@Richard Waugaman, M.D. you can bet your degree on the fact that President No-Nothing is now very much a true believer in the CDC, WHO, and anyone else that can save the admitted germophobe from this disease. He's a full-blooded coward that will do anything to save himself, even sacrifice millions of others to do it. So suddenly he's now a believer in the organizations he was previously defunding.
I would like to see an amendment to the ACA that makes anti-science, including anti-vaccine, the one pre-existing condition insurance companies may raise rates on.
5
@Richard Waugaman, M.D.
Anti-science agenda or just non-subscription to leftist dogma on so-called ‘climate change?’
1
@EGD I spent years doing a dissertation on much of the mathematics and some of the science that goes into the theory of climate change. As is quite usual in such environments, I don't even know what the politics of my colleagues and coworkers was on most subjects. The "leftist dogma" you are claiming exists is a collection of very well grounded physics, fluid dynamics, dynamical systems, and complex systems, including a ton of theoretical and applied work on systems of differential equations, approximation methods, modeling, chemistry, physics, environmental studies, glacier studies, atmospheric studies, mathematics and computer science.
None of which is known for being a "leftist dogma".
12
This news release appears not to be translated into Chinese as many NYTimes reports are.That is unfortunate because the Chinese need to know that we join them in their grief at the death of a bright, young and courageous physician.Great medical judgment transcends national boundaries and in the case of Dr. Li his words of warning were helpful around the world even though the Chinese government tried to silence him.A fitting tribute to Dr. Li would be to have an endowed professorship established in his name.There are many wealthy Chinese who could do this either in their country or in ours.The highest honor for important teaching and research physicians is to have a professorship in their name.Their excellent medical legacy lives on as generations of young doctors are taught the best in medicine all because of their important legacy.
10
This is an example of one of the most powerful arguments against Authoritarianism: When people are afraid to tell the truth, and leaders hear only what they want to hear, then both make bad decisions that cause disasters or make them worse.
12
To add some positivity to the usual negative comments about China, I paraphrase a couple of captions from The New York Times companion piece by the intrepid Chris Buckley who was/is in Wuhan (a city of 11 million people) which exemplify the Chinese Confucian ideals.
1. Wuhan is staying orderly thanks to its working class, garbage collection is taking place, its streets are clean, supermarkets are open...etc".
2. Mr Buckley met a construction worker who was surviving on instant noodles and tinned porridge. After the conversation, the worker ran after Mr Buckley to offer him one of his tins of porridge.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/07/world/asia/wuhan-china-life.html
10
Very tragic, and hopefully this might spur the powers to change certain aspects of the social dynamic in China.
5
It’s inconceivable to me as a Puerto Rican and an American citizen that authorities could silence, arrest and imprison someone for non-violent opinions and information they share online that may be critical of government. I truly hope that I can still feel the same at the end of President Trump’s time in office.
21
In Latin America the thing that finally toppled long dictatorships, Somosa in Nicaragua for example, were natural disasters and callous responses by authorities. This pandemic in China is more disastrous than any earthquake and has exposed what it means to entrust the nation to authoritarians.
22
@Jim Shultz Pandemic? The PRC has assured the outside world all is under control, to include a new hospital in two weeks!
We may never know what the ground truth is inside China and their leadership will do everything they can to keep it so.
When will the empowered, unaccountable THEY,
known, as well as hidden, protected as well as vulnerable,
different from the disempowered of the toxic,
WE-THEY-violated, learn that REALITIES are free of
THEIR embrace. REALITIES, which sooner or later express
THEIR ever-present, powerful, unstoppable uncertainties.
Unpredictabilities. Randomness. Almost hidden outliers.
Unexpected outcomes. In a world in which there is NO
TOTAL CONTROL, notwithstanding one’s efforts; timely or NOT.
How long before the haughty are humbled?
How long before THE HARMERS are harnessed?
How long before silenced HEROES become an irreversible tipping point?
4
I hope others in China take a page from brave Dr. Li's book and share with the world crucial information about the scope of this coronavirus outbreak, which clearly the authorities are trying to cover up.
15
Dr. Li is a hero who took tremendous risk and sacrificed his life to save others.
A large muzzled humanity is suffocating under an authoritarian and surveillance society. Freedom of speech does not mean anything in China, no matter what is written in their constitution.
We might have engaged them on trade, but have we raised the question of freedom and human rights with them lately? Not that I can recall.
17
@The Observer
What would happen to a Doctor who tried to warn the American people against the wishes of our authoritarian government?
10
The initial silencing of Dr. Wenliang puts me in mind, not only of Chernobyl, where there was a similar silencing and coverup, but also of the Titan missile crisis of 1980, and the non-response of NORAD on 911.
Those in any brand of power will want to hide problems. Bring in the anthropologists to search for the path of genuine action and avoidance of damaging false alarms.
9
First, Dr. Wenliang is a real hero who bravely tried to save the lives of his fellow citizens.
So sorry to see so many people making bad parallels to the US political situation. The US is one of the most open societies in the world. Even compared to the UK, the US goes further in protecting the freedom of the press. The fact that Trump and other groups are able to use this freedom to spread disinformation is the downside of freedom of the press because we leave the responsibility for truth with the reader. There are numerous groups online that provide "fact checking" if people want to check almost any news report. Moreover, citizens are able to search on news from all over the world. So no we are not on the path to being China unless we decide to support government control of thought and its expression. This means tolerating opinions and statements that in our personal opinion are wrong or even immoral is part of what makes our system open.
10
@Kevin Tell this to the scientists at NASA and EPA and listen to what this administration has made them suppress and not report to the public. How they lose their jobs if they speak out. Exact same thing.
I suggest the book “CHOKED. Life and breath in the age of air pollution” by Beth Gardiner.
13
@Kevin Very well worded & thoughtful comment. I miss the days of cordial discussions about various topics of day where people could share opinions and learn to respect the others opinions. America is no where close to China and I pray that it stays that way. Again, thanks Kevin for your comment.
1
In China they entrust power to the seven authoritarians at the top of the Poliburo, while in the States we entrust power to Ohioans and Floridans. Certainly a big difference, but...
2
The people's voice will be heard, but not necessarily in the way the article suggests. The Times needs to do a piece on the modern history of internet movements in China which prompt official response and action. 'Raw emotion' against societal injustice is actually not so uncommon and, if large enough in number, will result in investigations and policy shifts. There is censorship, but also agency, and I expect the death of Dr. Li to result in real change, especially in the means of communication between medical professionals and public media outlets.
The Wuhan government is getting blasted, rightfully, but their hands were perhaps also tied from above. Nevertheless, I do not believe it to be desireable for news of an impending national epidemic or potential global pandemic to be made by individual experts, no matter how earnest and well-meaning, on platforms like Wechat or Weibo (Chinese Twitter) where the grievances are also being aired now. Announcements of this gravity need to be verified by the medical community beyond all doubt and come with a plan for ordinary people to best protect themselves and loved ones.
Lastly, it is ultimately saddening to see the double standard of 'universal human emotion' in this instance, but when Chinese 'netizens' have anything positive to say about their country, they are 'wumaos' or 'brainwashed.' Though not always the case, these are often the very same people, whose humanity is split into two halves to satisfy an ideology.
7
@Eleanor
China doesn't need a responsible incremental cosmetic change.
China needs a revolution against its fascist regime.
2
@alyosha
I too sometimes indulge in dreams of regime change in far away places, for the betterment of its people, and ours. Then I remember every instance of actual regime change in the modern history of the world, and pray for incremental change instead.
2
@Eleanor
Certainly the tragic outcomes in Iran, Venezuela, Congo in the time of Lumumba, and many others speak to your concern.
However, I think Portugal (1974), South Africa, and Eastern Europe are all revolutionary experiences that ended more or less happily.
I'm inclined to add our Russia as a success in the making.
We've done the hardest part of the revolution against Stalinism, the conversion to a decentralized (market) economy. It was very difficult and the people need a rest.
Thus, Putin, the petty tyrant of the doldrums. In spite of the American (near) war propaganda, he's not Stalin. He's not even Pinochet. He's more Al Capone and Russia is Chicago of the 1920s.
Meet you on the barricade. We'll be on the same side, but you'll be down right with the reformists, while I'll be up left with the crazies.
The sad thing is he was forced to give in to something he knew was wrong. Just like our Senate this week. This man will be remembered for his courage in warning others. The U.S. Senate will be remembered otherwise.
Travel well, Doctor.
88
Excuse me? The Senate was not forced to give in. They chose to. No one put a gun to their head. Unlike in China.
1
Why criticise the Chinese government when no one has any idea how effectively western countries would be able to contain such an outbreak.
If the response in California to the 2018 H3N2 influenza outbreak is anything to go by, then I would not expect a Coronavirus outbreak in the US, if it came without warning, to be contained anywhere near as efficiently as it has been in Hubei.
4
Because it’s clear that the missteps made were due to a system of secrecy that has been implemented from the top down?
17
@RHR because they knew about the virus for a month before acting to protect the citizens? Instead, they only acted to silence people and protect the government.
3
@RHR
Changing the subject on an issue of this magnitude bespeaks a fool or scoundrel.
The CCP as ever is willing to trade lives for power. Forty million under Mao. Ten thousand this time? Or more? How many more? Chilling.
The time will come when this regime is overthrown. May it be sooner rather than later.
2
More or less exactly the aftermath of the Chernobyl disaster. And since the cause of the Chernobyl disaster was more or less the same authoritarian mindset, one wonders what else is waiting to erupt in China.
27
"The Chernobyl disaster, more than anything else, opened the possibility of much greater freedom of expression, to the point that the system as we knew it could no longer continue. It made absolutely clear how important it was to continue the policy of glasnost, and I must say that I started to think about time in terms of pre-Chernobyl and post-Chernobyl."
-Gorbachev
10
@solon, except that Chernobyl only killed 54 people.
1
@ondelette
Well, counting just the first responders, except that they came within 48 hours of rendering most of Europe uninhabitable for 100 years. Pripiyat is still evacuated. The UCS estimates more like 4,000.
1
“I love my country deeply. But I don’t like the current system and the ruling style of my country. I(t) cover(ed) my eyes, my ears and my mouth.”
Bad news? Just deny it exists. Climate change, the fake news statements, the whole shebang.
We are a lot closer to China than we think. At least there, they don't have to deal with Trump/Pence signs that have been out since the midterms. And in China one has the sense that the general public doesn't buy it, unlike here.
72
@Mike S. Ridiculous. It's the opposite way around. Informed citizens are the best way to "censor" news. People should be able to make up their own mind on any topic by researching the facts themselves.
@Mike S. China is a bloody dictatorship. If you think the US is anywhere near such a nightmare, your sense of proportionality is off by ten or a hundred to one.
1
@Kevin You put your finger on it:
"People should be able to make up their own mind on any topic by researching the facts themselves." But they don't. Case in point, your President doesn't read which kind of limits his research, and I would guess most of his supporters aren't doing any search to learn the facts.
The parallel disaster is how carrying out a vital public health service announcement becomes “whistle blowing”. Antidote: allow more institutions a genuine free voice and reduce concentrated political power for a healthier society.
20
Dr Li is a hero for speaking out to warn fellow doctors and the public of a new and highly contagious disease and to do this under the oppressive Chinese regime. Whistleblowers deserve legal protection under every regime and political system when they are acting in the public interest.
If Dr Li had been listened to by the Chinese state, instead of being forced to retract his truthful account of this terrible virus, then steps could have been taken to limit the spread of the novel coronavirus in December.
Whilst the Chinese government is taking steps to build facilities for infected people, it is extremely unclear what sort of medical treatment is being afforded to the many thousands of people infected particularly in Wuhan, where forced quarantine in basic holding facilities with beds has now been instituted.
18
A lesson for trumpies, if they'll listen. Commanding citizens NOT to speak about concerns, , trying to out whistleblowers, and using a sycophantic state news outlet to mislead the public. It's China, it's Russia, it's other nations, but it wasn't America until recently.
I hope some of trump's faithful will realize that things like truth and influenza and shared suffering are universal.
121
@deb
On the other hand, how about one political party attacking another on baseless phony charges, that are nevertheless re-enforced over and over by fake news media pundits? How did that Mueller Report work?
Another super hero who sacrificed his life to save the lives of others. Just a doctor’s or nurse’s daily job. Doctor Li, thank you for your service. My condolences to your loved ones. You are a hero.
55
@hey nineteen
Great comment.
I wish we revered these heroes instead of sports figures...
6
Freedom of speech is an essential when we say all men are equal. Hypocrites and cheaters do not practice such values. When a society has its politics above everything else, there looms disaster.
The House hearing on Feb 5 did not tell or reflect utmost measures or info from our government to fight this dangerous strange virus. An eyewitness at the hearing stressed several times that there was not enough data to assess the situation. If so, should n’t we pay even more alert and caution when we don’t know enough? Why is that I hear many voices making me feel that the danger of this virus is being played down?
16
@ Alexandra Hamilton
According to the article dr. Li corresponded in a private message with fellow medical professionals. Somehow this message ended up in the hands of social police and he was made to recount it after he received threatening messages from this authority. Democracy, freedom and freedom of speech may sometimes look messy, but that is the price we pay for
freedom of speech. That very freedom puts the onus on you to sort out truth from fiction, and it can be hard work. The idea that you would have social media policed by a government entity of some sort is abhorrent to everything America stands for. Trump would love it for sure. People fought and died so you could spout your nonsence! Don't stand so ready to hand it back in.
75
Whereas in the United States, concerned professionals (including climate scientists) are silenced by federal agencies.
Interesting!
476
@S
While the Trump administration’s command that verbiage it finds inconvenient (e.g. “climate change”) be omitted from EPA documents is a little Orwellian, there is an enormous difference between China’s authoritarian control of media and even personal communications, and the relative freedom of press and speech we have here.
Not trying to get on the American high horse; our First Amendment rights are not absolute, and in some cases troublesome, with bad actors spreading disinformation that can lead to our own health crises (looking at you, anti-vaxxers).
But can we please stop making false equivalencies here? We couldn’t even be having this type of discussion without a VPN and fear of repercussions if we were in Mainland China right now.
13
@Fed Up
I, for one, do not view the comparison as a false equivalence. We are not equivalent at this moment, but we are not far off.
I have already been considering the need for VPN usage, and reguarly have to conceal my beliefs from my employer and neighbors for fear of retribution.
23
It starts somewhere. If I told you in 2014 that we would have a vulgar president who does what he does, you would probably dismiss me out of hand.
24
This is what can happen under an authoritarian government. This is what is happening here in the United States. It must be stopped - before it is too late.
164
@Lois Lettini
China's problem is real fascism. Ours is called that in a ten-fold exaggeration.
We don't have their nightmare. It's unseemly to claim we do.
@Lois Lettini Our problem is perhaps worse than the Corona virus epidemic. Tolerance and Ignorance of an authoritarian government is the name of this political virus.
5
@Lois Lettini No it’s not. I am beginning to believe the readers of the NYT are lacking in objectivity. We do not have an authoritarian government.
1
These criticisms of the effectiveness of the Chinese Governments efforts to stem the epidemic are rooted in ignorance about epidemiology and infectious disease and viruses. Instead, the critics are making judgements apparently based on their political preferences. I am no fan of communism but there is zero evidence that any other densely populated country would do any better than the government of China has done or is doing.
10
@Fcterr
Nothing is perfect and speaking out about the imperfections is commendable.
There is evidence that the authoritarian government of China punishes those who criticise the authorities.
It's the Trump / Fox News dream on steroids.
1
But that is not the point that people are making. What is being said is that if the Chinese Government had been less secretive and more proactive, not reactive, they might have succeeded in limiting the disease without the need for the draconian policies now being implemented. Their secrecy has always been their downfall. A very “top down” culture and civilisation. Brilliant at reacting and poor at being pro-active or trusting anyone other than the Party. An extraordinarily defensive mindset entirely alien to democratic societies. That’s the weakness.
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@Fcterr Let's worry about other governments when they face such a problem.
Epidemiology etc. be damned. Whatever the status of this disease the self-protection of the regime has suppressed information about it, worsening the situation. Possibly worsening it disastrously.
I’m sorry for their loss. And I understand why they’d be upset. But having read past articles about Chinese internet censoring, won’t all these comments just end up getting deleted by government authorities? I doubt the ability of Chinese citizens to connect their momentary grief to a lasting change, at least within their current system’s structure.
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In the meantime, President Trump is praising the Chinese government for its handling of the epidemic.
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@kr You clearly do not understand the way his mind works. If he does not believe he has you where he wants you (mind you, not saying that reality matches his belief) then he works both sides to keep you off balance. Once he believes he has the upper hand or he does not think he needs you he comes after you with both barrels if you are against him or gives you occasional praise when you are not against him (think of how he treated Nikki Haley even though she resigned or Boris Johnson). If he does not think he has you (think Putin) then he normally does not risk alienating you if you have a position of strength. Even with world powers he is always working the angle to try and have the upper hand.
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The universal outpouring of human emotion, mourning the death of Dr. Li, is deeply moving. Amazing is that the Chinese people choose to openly criticize authoritarianism of their government. In America, a more polarized response would be likely with percentages broken down in all too familiar ways.
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China will continue to gag it's people and downplay the seriousness of the new virus/ China needs help, not congratulations. According to the John Hopkins Coronavirus CSSE page the number of deaths has not increased and has been stuck at 638 for almost a day now, The number of recovered people has increased by 200+ over the same period of time, which is a very good thing, I just find it hard to believe that suddenly no further deaths are being reported, when prior to today, deaths were reported every single day.
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This virus is killing the very old or people that already have weakened immune systems. How did a healthy young man die from it? Too suspicious.
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@David
Hardly suspicious. Influenza death rates are higher for the elderly, people with certain chronic diseases and children under 2, but it kills plenty of younger adults.
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Unfortunately this is a case where the conspiracy theory — foul play — is *less* scary than the likely truth: this virus is really dangerous (15 percent of people are in critical condition, case fatality rate aside).
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@David As is the case with other viruses including the Spanish flu, swine flu, and it seems this coronavirus, sometimes young and healthy people will have a profound immune response to the virus and that otherwise healthy immune response becomes overwhelming to the body.
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I do not approve of the extreme control the Chinese state exorcises over it people and this was a tragedy not only for the doctor but for all those who have died and will die from this epidemic. That said, I can also understand governments cracking down on social media. Look at the amount of dangerous misinformation online in the “free world” as well as all the coordinated and dangerous hate groups. Rumors of a pandemic circulating without check could cause panic and real problems. China did not apparently have a legitimate way for this doctor to sound his warning in a way that would have alerted the medical community to swing into coordinated action to investigate his report. And I suspect a history of shooting the messengers made everyone from doctors to the government health officials scared to say the fears were real. China should celebrate this young man and also anyone in officialdom who finally sounded the alarm and acted on it. They have to encourage people to report (maybe privately but quickly) and act on bad news.
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@Alexandra Hamilton
How some books called religious books have become threat to human race and world need to be doing discussion on
Today all world problems due religious books and party command rules .
China is not going to relax its control of public speech but they can still do far better than they did and hopefully they will now set up some sort of secure hotline for doctors and medical workers to report worrisome findings. And encourage people to report even if unsure. That a doctor had to resort to contacting peers by twitter in order to be heard is the real failure here. His warnings should have been taken seriously and properly investigated. It is worrisome that he appears to have been young and was presumably healthy yet still died. I hope he got the care he needed despite the government’s censure.
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I guess I don't understand why a doctor trying to warn a country of a potentially deadly virus is a threat to the Communist Party. He's trying to save lives and indirectly help the party. SMH.
Some of these doctors are truly brave. Many of them charged into Wuhan during the initial days without knowing at all how deadly the virus was.
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@Not 99pct Because to them it would appear that they are not able to control the problem which is an embarrassment for them on the world stage. Losing face can be a death sentence for someone high up in the Chinese government or at a minimum total loss of position.
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@Not 99pct It’s a bureaucratic reflex to suppress bad news.
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Really gross. Stories like this make me hate the Chinese government even more and appreciate what little left of our own formerly democratic government gets right. Talk about a lack of self awareness - what are they so scared of?
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In this terrible situation, Eric, you asked the one easy, $64k question: what is the Chinese government so scared of?
The Chinese government brands their system as Communism, but it is not. China today has many of the drawbacks of a true Communist economic system but few of the social advantages. What they do have is a rigid and authoritarian government, a kind of Chinese dictatorship of the proletariat, heavy government involvement in the key levers of the economy such as banking and heavy industry, and a ruthless state managed money obsessed economy that has generally lifted the country from devastated third world status after the War to the first rank economically by taking advantage of their own population. It’s a tea kettle on a hot fire and the government is constantly trying to make sure the whistle does not sound nor the kettle explode despite the water boiling furiously inside.
The Chinese government is deadly afraid the Chinese people will become wise to what’s going on, fed up and angry at being taken advantage of, and will rise up in a giant revolt for social freedom... like the stirrings in Hong Kong that have the politburo terrified. Their control solutions of bread and circuses and heavy handed authoritarianism show signs of outliving their usefulness as the bulk of the population has risen from rural poverty.
The Chinese are afraid of the Chinese and they are right.
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@Eric J more than half of the landmass that China includes in its borders is not really Chinese. In a very real way, this is an Imperial China. So they fear any group or region that feels less than blindly patriotic to the empire.
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so sad, on so many levels. Personally his story is tragic; for the city of Wuhan, for China and for the world, his story is disturbing and tragic.
Beware big government. History shows government with ever increasing power, seizes all power and it ends badly for humans.
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This is what you should expect when dealing with a country with a communist government. Americans have had it so good for so long they may not realize that they know little about other lifestyles and situations, thinking of China only as this great manufacturing behemoth with a booming economy. The attempts to contain this virus could have started a month earlier, but old habits die hard and 'four legs good, two legs bad" was ingrained in their system with the result that there will probably be thousands more deaths before this disease is contained. The US should reduce its dependence on this country, and like advice for investing, diversify it's manufacturing base.
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@Vivian
We've also been so comfortable that many of us are oblivious to signs of repression in our own country, and almost all of us are reluctant to make any changes in lifestyle that would decrease our comfort . .
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Censorship and propaganda can be wonderfully effective tools in solidifying autocratic rule. Then the censors become complacent in their power and face a situation like they do now in China. This doctor is the personification of all those martyrs to free speech, from every age, who, usually through no ambition of their own, while pursing the obvious common good, are misjudged by the censors and oppressed. It is just such a hero/martyr like Dr. Lee that topples seemingly all-powerful autocrats, and their illusions of total control, with such acts of selfless courage. With their determination speak up and help their fellows in crisis no matter what comes. Even death. Suppression of such legends only seem to make the power of their examples grow. Free speech is an idea that refuses to go away because of people like Dr. Lee.
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Odds are the virus escaped from gene-splicing lab. The story about the market is a convenient cover.
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@Ryan Bingham just stop. We don't need the conspiracy theories.
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Strangely, this made me think of Mitt Romney. A man made a heroic effort to help his people avoid impending disaster, but was shot down by his own government.
Fear is contagious. So how can it be controlled in the people who are entrusted with our safety? And if they fail us, how can we guide ourselves?
I mourn Dr. Li, a good and honest servant who died much too young.
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That would be an apt analogy if Senator Romney had been arrested and forced to write a statement admitting to criminal behavior.
What do you think would happen to a Chinese govt official if he made a public speech saying Xi is a fake, a con man, and “very, very, not smart,” as Romney did? China can only dream of our freedoms, even at our worst.
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@KJ, Mitt Romney, is that the same man who had the tax laws changed to he could give $100 million to each of his sons?
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I thought of Senator Romney, too; and Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch.
The collective impulse to knuckle under to corrupt, vengeful, narcissistic leaders like Xi, Putin and Trump is strong indeed. Fortunately a hero arises from time to time to remind the herd that we don’t have to be sheep.
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I’m deeply moved by these sincere and brave calls for freedom and transparency. It’s time for Xi to accommodate the wishes of the Chinese people.
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This is exactly what is starting to happen here. The Chinese people aren't just mourning his death, they are mourning their own free speech. We refuse to understand what we are losing in this country.
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I don’t disagree with your assessment of the trend but we’re a million miles from China on this topic. More than just a difference of degree
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@Catherine Freimiller, They don't know what "free speech" was. Are you serious?
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@Catherine Freimiller: That's quite an exaggeration if you're comparing America's policies to China. Maybe your comment is influenced by the outcome of the impeachment hearing.
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He gave his life for others. How many in a million would do the same?
Speaking truth to power takes immense courage. The Chinese are gathering force as they realise only the truth will set you free.
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@Shakesfire77
The hundred of thousands of medical professionals, volunteers, PLA medic corp, and families that’s currently in Hubei are all risking their lives to care for others.
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Many visit and even live in China, and see only the good. China is a great place, filled with amazing people, but there is a dark side. The PSB can come and lock you up and do anything they want to you at any time. Usually this means nothing other than some million people way off in the far reaches of the empire being shuttled into concentration camps. At other times it can become a pandemic.
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Several facts:
1. People want to be free. They want to self-determine. They want to choose their leaders.
2. Chinese are no different. I know this from decades living and working in Asia and having a family that is half Chinese and many many Chinese friends from all walks of life.
3. Our democracy, with all its current flaws, stresses, and strains, will survive. I know this because Americans will never give it back.
4. Nor will the free people living elsewhere in the world ever give theirs back. They will fight to the death to keep their freedom.
5. So all this talk about Chinese people caring only about prosperity or whatever and how their system of government is superior to ours, hence where humanity is headed is total you-know-what.
6. The people of China will eventually be free and have a representative government.
Two wishes: That #6 happens in my lifetime; and that it happens peacefully.
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@West Coaster
Excellent post
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@West Coaster
Chinese also like to be free from violent crimes, apathetic government, bad schools, high taxes, loud minorities, and foreign occupation.
If the choices is between the Chinese government or the US government, most would choose the Chinese government.
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And the leading paragraph from another NYT article: "President Trump praised China’s response to the virus outbreak on Friday after speaking by telephone with its leader, Xi Jinping, who he said was leading “what will be a very successful operation.”"
I guess Trump doesn't care/doesn't see how Xi dealt with a courageous doctor who could have stopped/slowed this epidemic. Why? Cause Li Wenliang was branded a "whistleblower" and we know what Trump thinks of a whistleblowers.
And don't think that this wouldn't happen in the US! By example, see what has happened to anyone in Trump's administration who disagrees with him, whether it be about how to humanely deal with refugees to whether a hurricane will avoid Alabama. And look how he's now punishing NY State Residents who want to use Global Entry because he disagrees with a State law? (As an aside, what every happened to the GOP mantra of state's rights?).
Does the US have anyone left who would dare contradict Trump in the name of science and ethics?
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@HN Astounding that Trump would praise China on its response. But we all know he loves the dictators and wishes he would have the same powers. Problem is that in this country, there is a House of Representatives to put at least some restraint on his self assumed dictatorial powers.
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@Tom Rose:
Not astounding to me that POTUS would praise China on its response. He's totally unaware and uncaring.
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@HN
There is a greasy deal to praise about China’s response, both in research on the virus and in drastic costly measures to at least slow the spread which will undoubtedly save lives both in China and elsewhere.
I post a lot that is critical of the Chinese government but it seems that that a touch of TDS is infecting these comments. If Trump says “good” then let’s say “bad.”
Rest In Peace, Dr Li. Your courage and compassion has doubtless saved thousands of lives throughout the planet, and may be the start of a free speech revolution in China.
How completely depressing and dispiriting to read that Trump and his flunkies are stepping up their retaliation against our own whistleblower and those who also courageously testified honestly. If this were happening any where else in the world, we’d condemn the dictator. The GOP moral rottenness has resulted in stains on our nation’s reputation and integrity that will take generations to erase.
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Shooting dead the messenger, doctor, will only add to the gravity of the coronavirus induced panic and anxieties that might expose the soft underbelly of secrecy and deceit associated with the authoritarian regime in China. .
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@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma
He died from sickness, not government hit teams which I heard is how the Indian government handles whistleblower in Assam and Kashmir.
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@AmateurHistorian so the Chinese response is to hit up a conspiracy theory with a conspiracy theory?
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@ondelette
Modi’s troubleshooting teams aren’t conspiracy. You really need to read up on what’s happening in Assam and Kashmir.
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Perhaps we don’t know much about China.
Judy on tv asked the Chinese Prime Minister about the virus. At first he stated they did not know. Then a doctor wrote about it. He was criticized. The Prime Minister stated that the doctor did well. But he did not know the information. When the information was revealed about the deaths The Prime Minister stated they build hospitals. Judy claimed they are investigating every family to see that they are sick. It sounded harsh to believe. Even for me. But he stated we have to determine what the virus is. He stated the Chinese people need to be inspected to see if they are sick! And then I clearly understood what he meant. I would find it hard to believe that people here in the United States would have doctors or nurses visit them to see if they are sick! I wonder what our TV and newspapers would say? But I believe what
the Chinese are doing is absolutely effective!
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Ignore science at your peril.
You think coronavirus is bad, just wait until every ecosystem on the planet transitions into a freefall collapse.
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"the planet will just shake us off, like a bad case of the fleas" George Carlin
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@oldBassGuy New diseases, and stronger versions of existing ones, will thrive in a warmer climate.
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@oldBassGuy You are 110% correct. I keep hearing of the potential mass melt of the Siberian permafrost, as ONE example, which will set loose microbes that human DNA has never been exposed to. Go figure...
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i seem to recall that our own government and business leaders urged us to continue to "engage" with China's government even after the violent Tienanmen Square crackdown in '89.
Three decades of engagement, particularly sending hundreds billions of our dollars, have really paved the way for democracy, hasn't it?
If and when the Chinese people gain human rights, history will show no help at all from the American people.
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@Kevin O'Reilly let’s also note what has happened to American “democracy” in that period.
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I disagree. I believe it is our engagement that is moving the Chinese public. For instance, it is our whistle blower law they are now seeking to emulate - and how many times have we seen Chinese protesters waving American flags? Our engagement does matter.
We need to double down on engagement. We need a president that understands the world, defends freedom, and speaks eloquently about human rights. We need to be supporting the Chinese public; not feeding Xi Jinping chocolate cake at Mar-a-lago.
As long as we remain uninterested in morality and a higher purpose in our relationships around the world - and see diplomacy as simple transactions on an accounting ledger - we undermine the outcomes in China and the rest of the world that would be in our best interests.
America first really puts everyone last... and in harms way.
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@Kevin O'Reilly Most recently, Trump has praised Xi’s handling of the crisis.
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One can hope that a consequence of this tragedy will be the weakening of Xi, arguably the world's worst dictator outside of North Korea.
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@bnyc My nominee for that honor would be Putin, whose ambitions have most recently spread to Iowa.
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@MikeG
Wow! I'm originally from Iowa, and that never even occurred to me. I did read that domestic Trump supporters were suspected.
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@bnyc App failure followed by the deliberate chaos of jammed telephone lines incited by posts on social media. The hallmarks of a KGB operation. Any questions?
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Why China will never be a world power.
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@Gabel For most of the world, they are already the dominant superpower. Only Americans have failed to notice.
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Meaning that the Soviet Union never was one of the two superpowers?
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China has become everyone’s source of cheap consumer items. Cheap products except for Apple, of course.
And I’m a fan.
2
Doctor Li was young 34 and by all accounts healthy, how is it
possible he died? Till now we have been told the very young and the very old and those with other serious medical conditions are a the most at risk, did Doctor Li really die from Corona virus?
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Well apparently a different article yesterday was taking about how most young people seem to not be showing much by way of symptoms. Unfortunately too official statistics from the state are highly suspect. For the national government to have taken such extreme measures send to imply it knows more than what it wishes to let on.
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@Gianni this is a good question but I think it’s plausible because he was “on the front lines”— probably infected early and didn’t get effective treatment because the government was in denial.
Also, by the way,I have read that children are at less risk from this virus.
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@Gianni The death rate in Wuhan is higher (at 4%) than in Hubei province (2.8%), which is much higher than the rest of China (0.17%). I would guess that doctors and people in general who are exposed to many infected people at the same time/place, multiple times, might develop more severe symptoms, even if they were healthy and younger? Compared to people in the rest of China who are exposed to just one or a few infected ones.
Based on the fact that in the epicenter it seems to be much more lethal.
But I'm just guessing.
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A true hero . A doctor who spoke out . And was punished . For trying to warn China and the world that a new pandemic that would kill thousands was emerging .
RIP
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For whom the bell tolls is not a poem. It's from a sermon by John Donne.
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“Do not ask for whom the bell tolls.
It tolls for thee.”
The full piece is great.
4
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main…. Any man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. Any therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
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This is what happens when a government is autocratic. Anything they don’t want made public gets suppressed, scientists, like here in the U.S. that had their results of research on climate change on government websites are now being silenced.
Disasters can and will happen because once truth is suppressed, actions that could have been taken, such as in China, aren’t. Now look. That doesn’t mean that an epidemic would not have broken out, but the officials in China would at least would have known what they were dealing with, and the rest of the word would have had a heads-up.
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In China, where I guess people have strong immune systems, you see things that are rare or unheard of here. The water, even in Beijing, is undrinkable. The air is unbelievably filthy and opaque, even far from big cities. Expectorating on the street, in the subways, etc. is disgustingly common (somehow, not in airports). Then, people sit on the same curbs and sidewalks to play games. Sanitation (toilets) are mostly primitive and government graded with a system of stars like hotels, but decent facilities are rare. When I visited in 2008,smoking was everywhere. And in cities and bigger towns, food is prepared and sold in the streets and filthy markets jam caged live animals in close proximity to each other and to people... including wild animals the Chinese savor, such as scorpions and bats, know to be incubators of viruses which jump from wild animals, to domestic animals, to humans. Keeping wild animals used as food, domestic animals, and humans separated seems to us like basic hygiene but in China it’s a different story. Previous disease outbreaks like SARS didn’t seem change these medieval habits. Maybe this coronavirus coupled with more widespread communications will improve things. But the Chinese government will fight it tooth and nail. Everything there is the People’s this and the People’s that, but when you come down to it, the government doesn’t seem to really care much about the People. Just like most places, the people take a distant back seat to money and power.
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@Pottree
12 years is 2 generations in China. It is also pre-Obama and pre-Trump in the US so your view is quite out of date
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@Pottree Our son and daughter-in-law were there in 2018, she is of Chinese descent and wanted to visit. Neither one said anything about this. Both are incredibly clean people and ate at the outdoor vendors. That doesn’t mean this is not true, just saying that they didn’t mention filthy conditions. Maybe, I did say maybe, conditions are better because of the influx of tourists.
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Authoritarian cultures whose first response shoot the messenger who brings bad news of a potential pandemic rather than confirming what's happening and taking immediate action can be detrimental to your health. In this case, the Chinese government didn't shoot the messenger. But they might as well have.
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Are we certain his passing was due to Coronavirus?
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@Agentmike
There is speculation in national security circles here in Washington DC that there were human rights abuses involved.
4
Do we have a shred of evidence to the contrary? Shouldn’t there be some evidence before we spread nonsense conspiracy theories across the internet?
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The last thing the Chinese Government wanted was for him to die.
15
I have long believed that the Chinese people -- no different from you and I -- have yearned for their freedom, even as they have tolerated the excesses of successive totalitarian regimes in Beijing in the spirit of equal parts conformity and reluctant passivity.
My sincere hope is that this national Chinese health tragedy, which we all know is far, far more severe than the Xi regime is letting, tips the scales of the popular conscience and leads to the onset of permanent public protest that ultimately drives the communists out of power.
China is a great nation, its people confined in the world's largest open air prison. It is time that it has the leadership that it deserves.
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@David H Will Americans be any different in their reluctant passivity in the face of Trump’s ever-increasing oppression of resistance?
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China is the most populous country on Earth. If the majority could agree on what constitutes a good government they certainly have the power to change. Unfortunately they can't seem to create a democratic system because of ignorance, procrastination and internal division.
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@David H: I believe that you are wrong about the Chinese people (in the PRC). First, people in different cultures are very much different from each other. Second, what sounds "totalitarian" to us might be completely different in the PRC. Third, of course, American born Chinese are quite similar to us other Americans and are very much unlike the people in the PRC.
5