The media would never allow it to happen.
6
If this stuff had Obama's name on it, the Republicans heads would be exploding.
36
Interesting and cogent - with one exception. Had Trump succeeded in winning re-election with help of Ukraine and they outed him, he would simply deny, deny, deny and accuse the Ukrainians of being ungrateful liars. Hardly a pothole in the road.
16
I wish it was, and we'd never ever had three years of tRump and MM. And the planet would still have protections.
12
Simple answer: the repubs would be apoplectic with rage and vote in lock step to impeach.
It's also likely a fair number of democrats would also vote for removal.
The hypocrisy, duplicity and immorality of the GOP is unlimited, that is self evident. For them, no rules apply.
It's becoming clear how tyrants take over a nation. Truly scary.
37
"Obama was meticulous in avoiding scandal and ethical conflicts." Really? Take off the rose-tinted glasses. In a way you're technically right, I suppose: Obama ostensibly kept his hands clean while his appointees at DOJ completely suppressed criminal prosecutions of those culpable in fraud causing the Big Meltdown in 2008. "Too big to jail," remember?
9
The article about the released tape of Trump at the dinner he ordered Yovanovich removed says the DEMs are trying to expand the inquiry to introduce new evidence. This is wrong.
The democrats are not trying to expand the inquiry by introducing new evidence. They are asking republicans to stand with them and allow the witnesses and documents they were illegally denied in the House inquiry by the Whitehouse. The SCOTUS already ruled on this matter in the Nixon Administration, the WH must obey Congressional Subpoena's.
16
When it was alleged that the Obama IRS had acted inappropriately by refusing to approve or deny the non-profit status of right leaning educational organizations, Obama claimed there was not a scintilla of corruption in the IRS and Lois was not compelled to testify. The Obama Justice Department had no interest in preventing the federal government from disadvantaging their political opponents.
When Hunter Biden took money from Burista, career State Department employees thought it inappropriate, by not one filed a whistleblower complaint to Paul Ryan or anyone else in the House or Senate.
When Obama sent two planeloads of cash to Iran that had never been appropriated by Congress, no member of his administration nor anyone in the media had anything negative to say about it.
The reason Obama claims to have had a no-drama administration is because his government was corrupt.
8
Obama was put on trial by the Republicans from the very first day of his administration. Midnight Mitch was determined to make Obama a one-term president. The Republicans intentionally scuttled Obama's fiscal recovery in 2009. Why? According to McConnell, so the Democrats wouldn't have a win. Every move made by Obama or his people were subject to Republican Congressional investigations, often made up of lies and more lies. And, as we've learned from Trump, Obama was also on trial all the time because he was black. Trump exposed that there were 8 years of racial hate by Republicans that was directed towards Obama.
29
If Obama had committed anything comparable to one of Trump's minor (relatively) offenses, say his declaring national security at risk in order to put tariff's on Canadian aluminum by executive fiat, or declaring a state of emergency in order to redirect funds allocated for the military to his border wall, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been impeached by a Republican congress. For Republicans, the double standard is the standard.
28
It's so nice just to see a photo of a decent and intelligent person next to the seal of the Presidency, who tried to make America a more decent and intelligent country. We've had few his match. I know so many young people through my work who can't wait to move this country into the 21st Century...but to get it done, thanks to extremist and treasonous right wing mercenaries like Trump and McConnell, they will have to contend with a Supreme Court poised to return it to the 19th.
22
Picking up on a side note from a comment: Mitch McConnell says, "Let the voters decide [in November]..."
He says that because he knows the elections are rigged in favor of Republicans and small conservative, rural states. We don't have free and fair elections that represents the majority of Americans.
We have Russian interference. We have corporate money poisoning the system. We have an election system controlled by conservative officials and judges (mostly white men). We have an electoral system that favors Republicans while targeting large urban populations with nefarious election practices:
- engaging in targeted gerrymandering
- allowing voter purges days before an election
- turning away voters, throwing out votes without allowing independent verification
- using electronic voting machines (with internet access) that are owned by conservative corporation, and limits the availability and location of voting polls to make voting more difficult for poor people.
All of this on ONE DAY, during working hours so that poor people are forced to stand in long lines early in the morning, at lunch or in the few hours left after work hours.
Mitch and Republicans have rigged the system. Mass protests and serious systemic changes are the only way out of this. We have to stop living in the twisted minutiae of McConnell's version of The Constitution. We need to get these sociopath men and their money and their corrupt schemes OUT of our government!
32
This is a better exercise if applied as a kind of regression analysis, to every rationale one might use to answer.
But this thought experiment assumes an honest self-examination of motive, and the ability to identify , and critically exam, the basis of the knowledge used to form opinion.
So fuggedaboudit.
2
I think if you investigated every president after Jimmy Carter, you'd find something impeachable. Obama has a clean reputation but there is a lot under the surface he did that would warrant removal from office. The question now isn't whether you like someone's policies or not. The question is whether the Senate will check the imperial presidency or not. If Trump gets off, the trend of executive overreach will continue and the other two branches of government will atrophy. We will essentially be an executive branch government, rule by one person. That's dictatorship.
16
Did Bill Clinton deserve to live in the White House again after being impeached but not removed from office? His perjury didn’t rise anywhere near the level of sinfulness that this administration’s treasonous acts do. But plenty of voters did not forget the bad taste he left in our mouths.
People in Washington may be locked into party loyalty. Plenty of independents are ready to judge on the merits. We also have a long memory for those who betray our trust.
4
This is typical commentary from a Slave State Conservative. Neo-Confederates conveniently forget that they used to be Democrats (Dixiecrats) until lynchings and segregation were finally outlawed over their violent protests.
Trump found his base with the Birther myth, and Slave State Conservatives found their Dear Leader.
2
If anyone is seeing ads for "Blue Gas" that purport to worry Elon Musk, this substance is just process gas, sometimes called town gas, which is a poisonous mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Elon is not losing sleep over it, so don't lose your money on it.
I am a liberal, and I detest Trump. I cannot imagine Obama acting in the same way. However, if the same charges were to have been made against Obama, with the same kind of substantiating evidence that exists against Trump, he should have been impeached by the House and, absent truly exculpatory evidence (which I find hard to imagine), convicted by the Senate. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Period. End of discussion.
18
“The foreign country could then blackmail our president by threatening to expose the corruption, gaining leverage over our foreign policy.” Which is what Russia is already doing and which is why Trump won’t release his taxes.
22
Laughable: It is not a guess to state that Republicans and Democrats would demand subpoena's. That is the basis of our democracy. Problem being Trump supporters know he is guilty; they don't believe in democracy since they would lose in a democracy. The problem is, Trump supporters are traitors to a constitution.
15
Good column. Interesting Comments, both sides.
My only thought for Dems...Let's give The Rules one more shot, this year. If we get him out at the ballot box, then let's see what happens.
But if not - it's time we also take the gloves off, bite, kick, groin-punch, lie, steal, cheat.
We haven't had a Republican President win the popular vote in this century while reaching office. And when in office, despite the lack of mandate, they wield the levers of power like despots. And GOP-ville is just fine with that.
Oh - don't like the dirty fighting idea??
How about we actually try to address the legitimate economic problems of those flyover states - for real, with private-sector job development? Win those voters back, by giving them what they really want, after all.
Conservatism and racism increase when the future looks gloomy. Make the future bright and good things are possible once again.
2
The word commenters are searching for is "reprehensible," both to describe the conduct of Republican senators, especially their leader, as well as that of the occupant of the Oval Office. It would have been unimaginable in early times. We are in unexplored territory of vile conduct by our Senate majority, with no idea of where it may take us as a nation. Frightening.
4
"What if" this happened is a worthless exercise in my opinion, when we cannot yet deal with what actually happened.
We know the answers to this McConnell SENATE vote regarding Trump, and we know precisely the approach midnight Mitch would take to Obama being similarly accused.
Lets not wast energy on such debates. Energy is bet spent to win in November - POTUS AND the Senate so the new Democratic POTUS can act.
PS: The media is really milking this-I actually turned off the Sunday morning shows given the schoolboy/girl quality of discussion. Or should i SAY GOSSIP SESSION.
1
I am a liberal, and I detest Donald Trump. I cannot imagine Obama doing what he did. However, if he had done so and the type of evidence that has been adduced against Trump was developed against Trump were to have been developed against Obama, he would deserve to be impeached by the House and absent compelling evidence convicted by the Senate. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
1
“What if it was Obama” would never occur because Barack Obama is now, and always has been a good and decent man. For that he would be given the benefit of the doubt by the electorate.
Donald Trump, on the other hand, has always been a swindler and a cheat. His whole life has been a rich playboy wreck, so he deserves no benefit of the doubt. Sorry Mr Kristof.
9
The more telling test for us Democrats is what did we think, what did we feel when we learned the truth about Clinton? A President I admired and a man whom I found disgusting.
2
Better than Nixon
Triple our pleasure, it’s all heaven sent
Pols venting daily, not making a dent,
He’s a crook, no he’s not, ad infinitum
Clever or brainless, Trump is an item
For media pleasure, comments so droll
We tune in to Rachel – this gal’s on a roil;
Final outcome – unknown: king of the hill –
Hope it’s the Trumpster, but some have their fill
Your “what if” would never be even if there were adequate evidence simply because the media had a love affair with Obama who could do no wrong. The media salivated over His every move. Whereas it is clear that Trump does not enjoy the same privilege. Since the days after the election, impeachment talk has been part of the liberal narrative pushed by the media. The economy is flourishing, workers are seeing their 401k investments spike and unemployment for minorities is at a record low. An enemy of the United States responsible for numerous deaths is killed. Sounds like positive accomplishments? No, not according to the media spin who wait for a disparaging photo of Trump and then pounces. Headlines will read “Trump hates successful women” or “Trump marriage on the rocks” . It has become comical and obvious that the media does not like this guy. Not to mention the disgraceful coverage of the first lady. We have an acconplished,educated woman in the White House and all the media chooses to report on is her poor choice in shoes.
But as long as you suggest it, let’s put Obama on trial and see what he knew about Biden and his son’s cushy job. What about all the money given to Iran for his “deal”. Did this money actually help our enemies? As long as we are at it, was Obama aware of the Clinton e-mails?
I Will happily vote for four more years of prosperity with Trump.
2
I’d point out to you that all Obama’s JCPOA did was give Iran back their own seized money plus interest, but I can’t imagine it’d help anybody who can’t orgnize a simple paragraph.
9
Another ridiculous attempt to make it seem as if Trump supporters are justified in their beliefs and actions. The Trump situation is a rare and extraordinary one and does not call for bothsiderism or what ifs.
It never fails to amaze me the cognitive dissonance of the left, all these pretend thought experiments.
Here’s one for you, what if Trumps son with no experience was taking 89k a month off a corrupt Ukrainian company whilst his dad was in charge of rooting out corruption?
Here’s one more. Imagine trying to impeach the president who is asking to find out if there was any wrong doing?
3
@Stephen Hill
LOL. You've missed the reality: the Rump's children are spending all their time doing exactly that: advancing Daddy's business interests and collecting bribes disguised as hotel rooms and resort memberships from the world's most corrupt oligarchs and autocrats.
9
What a ridiculous question.
Giving a misleading answer about something embarrassing that is IRRELEVANT to the matter at hand is not a crime, period. And since Clinton clearly wanted to preserve his "virginity" and refused to "go all the way" despite Monica Lewinsky's desire to do so, calling his answer about an irrelevant matter "perjury" is ridiculous.
The Democrats did NOT impeach Trump for the perjury Trump committed in many civil trials and his crimes involving his illegal efforts to cover up his sexual affairs and sexual harassment.
Trump is being impeached for illegally holding up foreign aide until a foreign leader gave a public press conference saying the words that Trump's men had written for him to smear Trump's political opponent.
Trump is being impeached for a crime against the Constitution. If Democrats wanted to impeach him for doing what Clinton did, they could have done so on day 1.
This isn’t a fair thought experiment. Some of the differences between (liberal, progressives, Dems) and (conservative, right, Reps) include how we value and understand the relationship between facts and beliefs, critical thought and hypocrisy.
Science teaches us that if new information becomes available, one should at least review their position, if not reconsider it. Many conservatives see this approach as not really being committed to one’s beliefs.
For example, one of the sayings the political right has is, “America, love it or leave it.” Now, the writings we have from American’s Founding Fathers, whom conservatives laud, exemplify that critical discourse is essential to democracy.
Conservatives tend to also dislike freedom of religion (unless its Christianity), free press, free speech. When taken with their dislike of critical discourse, it is them who should really “love it or leave it.”
When I have pointed out the above hypocrisy to conservatives, typically, they are nonplussed. This is because avoiding hypocrisy is really not high on conservative list of values.
Suggesting that they would act differently if the shoe was on the other foot presupposes that they wouldn’t want to be seen as hypocritical.
But if the Reps just want their side to win and don’t care how they do it, the current situation is just about the Reps continuing to win, and that is happening, so that is good. “Fairness” doesn’t factor into it.
.
2
Hey Nicholas,
Justice is Suppose to be BLIND !
Blind to Race !
Blind to Any Measure of Stature !
How We Feel about someone ISN'T a Fixture of Justice !
2
Let's keep going in this vein. What if Obama was on his third wife? What if he fathered children by 3 women? What if he had been on the bus with Billy Bush making those horrific comments about assaulting women? What if he paid off a porn star and other women for sex, and made a deal with the Enquirer to keep it under wraps? What if his past girlfriends and/or wives had abortions and then hypocritically joined the so-called "pro-life" protestors in their protest gathering? What if he owned hotels, and foreign government officials and others paid for lots of rooms to curry favor with him? What if he undid the moving of the FBI building so that a competing hotel could not be built? What if he called Second Corinthians "two Corinthians" while claiming to know the content of the Bible? Or claimed that he has never done anything requiring him to say "I'm sorry" for or repent to God for? The blatant hypocrisy has been going on since the run up to the election, not only from the 45th president but from his followers.
10
Bill,
Lies and deceit can be misconstrued as a "spine"
2
Reality Check every one loves good show isnt that what autually happening all big show an in end millions people loose jobs pay living wage with NAFTA 2. Alot of what american people dont see dosent hurt them been statis quo since NAFTA 1 destroyed millions jobs would been created in usa. Dont be fooled by curent events just smoke screen to real deals.
1
Among other reasons, Dershowitz supports & defends Trump because Trump supports--really supports--Bibi Netanyahu. [No, ladies & gentlemen, that's not an antisemitic observation.]
2
Check out this article (from the NY Times):
by Josh Blackman (Jan 23, 2020)
Trump Acts Like a Politician. That's Not an Impeachable Offense.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/opinion/trump-impeachment-defense.html
2
I don’t care who is on trial- the crimes and abuses speak for themselves. My decisions are not based upon cult following or party affiliation; they are based upon right and wrong and what is in the best interest of Americans as a nation.
A corrupt leader or a corrupt government is NEVER good for a country, it profits only the crooks at the top at the top at the expense of everyone else. THAT is exactly what is now happening in this country. Trump is certainly no leader - he is a Mafia Don bully who LOST our popular vote by over 2 MILLION to a flawed candidate in the dirtiest, most corrupt political race I have ever seen. All this with unquestionable Russian help!
If Obama had done even a tiny fraction of what Trump has done to corrupt us, I would be first in line to demand accountability, just as I do now. But it is NOT Obama, it is TRUMP, and he is lethal to this nation. His following of lying, sleazy Republican sycophants is a national disgrace and an existential threat to this Union. Without conscience or a spine they seek power for its own sake and the crooked money that follows. When we see this in other banana republics we scoff and say “shame”, but it is going on right here, under our noses, and Trump’s cult followers enthusiastically endorse it.
The solution is to win both Executive and Legislative branches overwhelmingly in November and set our country back on track, before it is too late and we have another Fascist State to rival Hitler’s.
4
"Obama was meticulous in avoiding scandal and ethical conflicts."
Indeed?
What about the debacle with the "Fast and Furious" gun smuggling scandal that occurred under his presidency?
“Operation Fast and Furious,” designed to help the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) dismantle drug cartels operating inside the United States and disrupt drug-trafficking routes. Instead, it put into the hands of criminals south of the border some 2,000 weapons, which have been used to kill hundreds of Mexicans and at least one American, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.
After a raid on the kingpin Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman's hideout, a .50-caliber rifle, was found. It had the capability of stopping a car or shooting down a helicopter - and, it originated with the ATF program. But not to worry: only 34 such rifles were sold through the program.
Then there was the news that a federal judge rejected President Obama’s assertion of executive privilege to deny Congress access to Fast and Furious–related records it requested back in 2012 as part of an investigation into the gun-walking operation. Deny. Deny. Deny.
So, despite the IRS scandal (ordering the IRS to target opponents), the Clinton/Benghazi debacle and a host of other accusations of malfeasance against this White House, everyone still lauds him and supports his claim to assert executive privilege.
Where it is politically expedient.
And Hillary keeps her nose clean…again…for her 2020 comeback.
I admire President Obama deeply. I think he is a good man and was a good president. I didn't agree with everything he did in office, and some things I thought were outright wrong.
During those years, I called my Congressional Representative to ask for investigation into various things. I wanted the truth about the drone program, about war crimes, about whistleblowers, about women reporting rapes in the military. Had President Obama tried to use a foreign power to smear Mitt Romney and subvert an US Election, I have no doubt that I would have been on the phone with my Rep demanding oversight, all the way to Impeachment.
When I called my Senator this week, I asked for witnesses and documents, and I didn't ask him to Impeach Trump. I said I thought he was guilty, I said I wanted a fair trial. I also said that I understood what was politically possible. That given the atmosphere in the Senate, it might not BE possible. That I understood if the Republicans were not upholding their Constitutional duty.
The Republic has fallen. Long Live the Empire.
4
As many have pointed out, this thought experiment presumes the parties are equally interested in their commitment to our country and its governance.
When Clinton was reelected, a memo from the RNC went out which a representative from upstate NY left on his desk and which an enterprising press photographer got a picture of.
Among the bullet points: continue to oppose every legislative initiative coming from the White House and continue to try and find something to impeach the president. Let's not forget that Clinton was caught in the very same type of "perjury trap" that they accused the current House of trying to set up. He was being deposed about the Whitewater (so-called) scandal when he was asked an entirely unrelated question.
When Obama was elected the Tea Party swept in 2 years later and the exact same actions were revived. Every time he asked Republicans to the table they rebuffed him and then whined to their base about how the mean man refused to work with them. We see this being put in practice now by the Senate and President; the House has passed tons of bills that Mitch refuses to forward so he and his buddies can whine about the "do nothing" House.
There's no need for a "thought experiment" when one knows and understands recent history. One party is interested solely in power, and they've done a very good job over the past 40 years consolidating it. At this point it really doesn't matter who's elected in November. Our democratic-republic is irrevocably broken.
5
In my LE career I've come to the conclusion it all depends on whose ox is being gored. If the person being charged with a crime is your child, or spouse, relative or friend you will find a hundred and one reasons to mitigate their behavior. If you, or a child, spouse, and so on, is the victim of a crime you'll have numerous reasons why the behavior of the defendant aggravates the offense. Objectivity is not a common trait in human nature and few of us approach politics with an open and unbiased mind.
2
I thought perjury rose to threshold needed to remove a president but it didn't. So when that didn't happen, all bets were off. Impeachment became a political sword rather than a check on presidential power. It is true that Democrats have been at it since the day Trump was elected. When the much hyped Mueller Report petered out, the Democrats just hitched their wagon to a new star, the Ukraine fiasco. Most people see the pattern and it may cost the Democrats. Trump is going to look like an underdog taking a relentless beating yet surviving. Rather makes him a sympathetic character. Improbable? So was 2016.
5
I think that this very helpful, but the thought exercise needs to be stronger— what if it were Obama, whose policies we normally liked, but also he had by some miracle edict provided for something like free health care for all, and then if getting rid of him through impeachment (because let’s say he abused his power in asking another government to help him deal with a pharmaceutical company that stood in in the way of his healthcare policy) and impeaching him would just about guarantee we’d lose the healthcare upon which our lives depended— how then would we feel about his hypothetical abuse of power and contempt of Congress? Would we defend him? He did what he thought was right for us! If he goes, our health care goes. Yes, this overblown. It’s a hypothetical, for purposes of imagining something very important being taken away if the president is removed.
Trump has unleashed a river of manna for American oligarchs and wanna-be oligarchs. Removing Trump from office would turn off the spigot. These guys (mostly guys) are fighting for their power and existence. Doesn’t excuse it, or make it right, but it explains it, and helps to know what we are up against.
2
Interesting thought experiment and one I've already wondered about for my own thinking. As much as I detest our president for his amorality, I wonder if I should give him the benefit of the doubt as that what any politician would do. I came to the realisation that no one previously had been accused of doing what he did. And in this climate wouldn't the opposing party have found something?
This column also made me wonder why didn't President Zelensky accede to our president's demand? Was it because he knew that re-electing Trump wouldn't be in Ukraine's best interests?
1
@D'accord
You have one thing right in your theory. Ukraine was a player in this drama, and they too were aware of the consequence of their actions. The presumption that Zelensky was not under pressure is very bizarre. When someone has his foot on your neck, there is pressure and you have to play it right so he won't step down harder so your country does not join the greater Russian empire again. China comes in to tariff tax;ks with an agenda. So does Mexico and other countries. They might not have leverage, but they t have leverage, but they have something that the US needs or wants from them, hence the negotiatipion. So yes, the Ulraome was a player at sp;me live. and the all knew that they were playing hardball. nomahave something to
The point of your op-ed is that we are all prejudiced by our political leanings. I get that.
However, this "Impeachment Trial" is flawed. The Jury is prejudiced by their political fear and/or dislike of Trump. In a civil or criminal trial, Judges are diligent in selecting impartial Jurors. When the verdict is announced, both sides respect the decision of the Jury. That will not happen in this Impeachment trial.
7
The playbook for dirtying the leading opponent to gain an easier opposing candidate in the general election is that of Putin. Russia has what is called "elections" and Putin has arranged to have no credible and pretty much just hand picked "opponents" in those farce elections. Trump was working with the same playbook, getting his instructions from obvious places. The future elections in the US would thereafter simply be rubber stamps of Trump, his kids and any other evangelical and GOP hand picked choices thereafter. Anything resembling opposition parties would be harassed and imprisoned - if not worse, thereafter. The apparent willingness of enough of the "base" public to go along with this charade during the past three years shows that the milita minded among them would be willing to do the bidding of this crowd as well, with no outcry from that base. Don't think this is the starting prologue to a near-future sci-fi novel; the writing is already on the wall.
2
"The Ukraine mess would have been out of character for Obama, while it is entirely in character for Trump."
This is really the point isn't it.? If Obama had removed an ambassador because he/she had become an irritant to the local government, most people would assume he was advancing a legitimate American interest, not a personal one. If he felt, that Trump should be investigated, as he could have (concerns about Trump laundering Russian money through real estate have been around for a while, and sorting out Russia's motivation for supporting Trump was also a legitimate question for the US government), he would have gone through law enforcement (FBI, the intelligence community) and not sent his private attorney to establish a shadow foreign policy that actually undermined American diplomats. And he would have answered Congressional inquiries about it.
Which is not to say that Obama never circumvented the law, e.g with the "Dreamers" (https://cis.org/Report/President-Obamas-Deferred-Action-Program-Illegal-Aliens-Plainly-Unconstitutional?), but he went to Congress first, acted transparently and acted out of conscience, with nothing personal to gain from this.
As far differing perspectives go, an interesting exercise is to see how things such as presidential golf, information security (emails vs insecure phones), embassy security and other comparable actions are seen during Trump's time in office by conservatives who criticized Obama/Clinton for them.
4
I am a left of center liberal who cares more about facts, policy and process than party. The POTUS acts in my name, and I expect him/her to meet a higher standard than the ordinary person on the street, not a lower one. I thought Clinton should be impeached--though perhaps not removed--for lying under oath about a perfectly personal matter that at most had only ancillary national security implications. I think Trump was rightly impeached--and probably should be removed, though I think hearing from Bolton (among others) would be helpful--for exerting pressure on a vulnerable country, for purely personal gain, in a manner directly antithetical to important national security interests and contrary to the law (see the recent GAO report).
3
Obama wouldn't be on trial. If he were anything like Trump, he would have been impeached and convicted for a much less serious offense (or offenses) by the astoundingly corrupt Republicans three months into his term. And that is not an exaggeration.
10
I voted for Obama twice, and if he was engaged in withholding military aid to get a foreign nation to interfere in our elections I'd want him gone. The difference is Obama didn't and wouldn't.
12
Reality Check: We of both parties hold our Educators (and students) to a much higher standard than we do our Politicians. Could you imagine if we didn't?
Nonetheless, the proposed thought exercises are a good litmus test for determining the clarity of our judgment. As many have noted here already, in this case, the first exercise is such a preposterous hypothetical that it is hard to take seriously. The second exercise is more challenging. What would I think if I believed that a president who was the only chance my party had to save the soul of America had abused the power of his office in order to bolster his chances for reelection? In this case -- where I felt that a liberal agenda was demonic -- I would probably hope that every possible defense was exhausted before he was deposed. If I saw abortion as murder, If I were a militant Zionist, a Rapture-minded anti-semite, or if I saw the Gilded Age as a social and economic ideal, I would believe that the greater good was being uniquely well-served by Trump. Irreplaceably well-served. I would be willing to compromise my standards to a great extent.
1
"So a last query: Shouldn’t we have as high a standard for the president of the United States as for a school vice principal?"
Classic. You just put the knife of truth between Trump's supporters second and third ribs.
1
@Silence Dogood
So your plan for those who disagree with you at the ballot box would be mass murder?
2
It's not even a question. It's public knowledge. This Republican Party President, Donald Trump, asked the head of another foreign nation to intervene, interfere in our election system by asking him and his country to investigate his foremost rival during the current election to benefit himself.
On what planet, in what universe is that defensible? In what world is that not impeachable?
No one who is truly innocent keeps people from testifying or keeps evidence from being brought to light.
It seems clear we are prostituting our nation, our people, Democracy, the rule of law and everything we supposedly hold dear about our Constitution, all for a "good economy."
A President, dirtier, by far, than "Tricky Dick" Nixon and his political party is going to support him regardless because power.
2
Same kind of trial, short, no witnesses,
only different verdicts. Obama would be guilty as soon as it was brought to the Senate.
Just like trump will be found innocent as soon it is brought to the Senate.
1
The wise do not create vacuums without preparing what will fill them.
Imagine if Russia invaded Ukraine, then Poland, then Eastern Germany? What would the U.S. response be?
1
@What is a “Liberal Hack”?
I suspect the US response would be to lead NATO into the quick response that would stop Russia- should Russia make such a stupid move.
The member states of NATO are:
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States.
2
Simple solution: Bring Bolton and Mulvaney forward as witnesses. Let them speak, and let the chips fall where they may.
To not do so is cowardice.
Looking at you, Senators Romney, Murkowski, Collins, Portman, and any other Republican with even a shred of moral courage.
8
The problem with comparing Obama to Trump is the problem of "false equivalence": Mr. Trump is undeniably amoral in all aspects of his existence. The same cannot be said of President Obama.
7
Sunstein's third thought experiment is by far the best. "Try to put yourself behind a veil of ignorance, in which you know nothing about the president and his policies," he wrote. "All you know about are the actions that are said to be a basis for impeachment. If that is all you know, would you think he should be impeached?" This is ultimately the meaning of blind justice.
Surely, hearing both arguments about the President's actions this past week under this veil of ignorance, the senators would want more witnesses and documents in order to get at the truth and make the best possible decision. After all, to err with the stakes so high would be potentially catastrophic - maybe even to their own party and their own fortunes, to say nothing of the country. And if further proof of these allegations were uncovered, President X would surely be removed for the high crimes and misdemeanors of attempting to fix an election in his favor, bribe a foreign government, and deceive the American people.
The question should be whether Obama would have tried to scheme his way to getting Ukrainian help in the election.
Obama would not have been so corrupt in the first place.
6
President Obama didn't have a lunatic fan following that put appearances over country or principles. He very nearly was impeached for wearing a tan-colored suit! So let's not kid ourselves, there are and always will be different standards.
4
Do not forget Trumps enabler‘s in Congress!
Vote and throw all the Republican congressmen out of office in November 2020.
6
A better question as it relates to former President Obama is as follows: What if President Trump were caught in the IRS scandal, the Fast and Furious scandal, the FBI surveillance scandal? Russia hot mic? Trading 4 hardened terrorists for a deserter? Methinks Democrats would be calling for Trump’s head.
You thinks wrong. The difference is Obama never personally benefited from your groundbreaking “scandals”. Trump doesn’t brush his teeth without wondering, what’s in it for me.
1
"What if it were President Barack Obama who was on trial?"
President Obama would never have been on trial in the first place so no need to answer that question.
3
My immediate first instinct after reading the question:
Preserve democratic policy and agenda -- quarantine/shield the threat to it by a corrupt actor if that becomes necessary and cut ties/batten down hatches sooner rather than later.
The GOP likely has not fully realized how thoroughly and long-lasting (if not terminally) its political identity and philosophy has be corroded and corrupted. Even disregarding the Ukraine affair does anyone really believe this is the only mafioso-like operation that Trump has been engaged in -- the guy has operated like this for decades. Does any GOP rep and senator really believe this will never come to the surface.
The deeper issue is that there is a fundamental problem with the presidency, if not with the institution itself then at least how it is viewed. Presidents main roles are less and less that of policy thinkers and leaders, but more and more personifications of cultural rifts to the extend of creating personality cults. The presidency has always had a strong monarchic streak already in its initial conception -- and that has come to untenable fruition in the age of reality-TV and social media.
IMO, America has to take a very hard look at the institution of the presidency and whether this is a survival concept going forward.
1
Obama was tried by the far right and found guilty of uppityness years ago; they'd sentence him to death if they could. I can't count the people who hated him from day one of the campaign because a black man in the White House is their worst nightmare.
12
Technically Trump is on trial on the basis of his actions on Ukraine, but we all know he did so much more. The fact that Republicans can, with a straight face, argue Trump did nothing wrong is a very poignant illustration of power. The Republicans are in control of the Senate, so it's a forgone conclusion they will acquit Trump regardless of reality and the whole trial is a farce, a mere performance to dress up their exercise of brute power.
The irony is, in a democracy, the people gave the politicians this power, to undermine their own interests. Please American voters, think, be informed, and vote wisely. We deserve the government we elect.
2
Shouldn't we have as high a standard? Well, we obviously don't. A logical point would be for our political parties to enforce these minimum standards.
The missing point here is that Ukraine is just a nice, clean, well-documented example of Trump's misconduct. It certainly represents much less than 1% of his bad behavior.
So no matter what happens, Donald Trump will have gotten away with at least 99% of his offenses. I'd like to be an optimist, and say that it won't be a precedent for future presidents. We'll recognize Trump as a uniquely bad and lawless president and make it clear that future presidents can't do what he did. How we do this, I don't know.
4
Great idea, Mr Kristof -- and a constructive one. Another thought experiment: what if Joe, James, Frank, and Hunter Biden had all been Republicans, and their family's substantial wealth could be 99% sourced to Joe's lifetime career in public service? Let's say we're talking a couple of hundred million dollars, more or less, and that that career included serious assigned responsibility for US relations with China. Would a Democratic Party president have an obligation to investigate how US - China relations were affected by the family's increased wealth due to Chinese influence? Would it matter whether Joe was or was not a candidate for the Republican Party's presidential nomination? Or would we be talking about a new version of the Manchurian Candidate?
4
Whether Trump or Obama, impeachment by the House is a purely political decision, as are the trial verdicts by the Senate. Therefore, without bipartisan support, impeachment should never be pursued. To do so weaponizes an already contentious process, that's designed to be emotionally wrenching. Moreover, lack of bipartisan support in Congress tracks closely with a dearth of popular will to remove the President. This is born out by the empty spectator gallery and poor ratings for the trial on TV. The bottom line is that the election is less than 10 months away. The articles were held back by the Speaker for a month. Waiting until the voters have their say would've made good political sense. Of course, that's predicated on the belief that the Dems have faith in their presidential candidates. Obviously, they do not.
3
This premise relies entirely on the notion that one party does not completely genuflect itself to the president.
6
@MJG Impeachment is a necessary action when a president oversteps his authority for personal gain and uses it to harm a political opponent--no matter the party.
4
I’m sorry you object to the primary process, as well as to democratic debate.
2
I’d consider myself politically neutral. I have voted for Republicans and Democrats. Even donated to both types of candidates. I’m one of those that voted for Obama and Trump. My belief being may the best candidate win and that we benefit from many perspectives. So, while there were aspects of Trump I agreed with, i.e. strong stance on immigration, and felt the initial disrespect by progressives was more like petulant children not getting their way, I cannot ignore our President’s disregard for the decorum of being a president and his abuse of power.
Through the Ukraine issue he’s shown he puts his interests above the American people and attempts to hoodwink the public while he acts corrupt. It’s a very sad day when our elected Republican representatives put party loyalty above doing what is right. When Trump started office I had hoped for his success, but it frightens me to see how he consistently acts more like a 3rd world leader. Republican senators are putting their head in the sand to the president’s bad acts and they will eventually pay the price by not being re-elected themselves. I for one will be very weary of any Republican running in the future. I think it’s time for independents to take a stronger lead in held offices, maybe then elected officials can remember what it means to do the right thing beyond party lines.
10
I read a story awhile back that if the Democrat's are successful in impeaching Trump, they would start the process over again with the vice President. Again if successful get a Democrat in as president.
Is this the way the system works in the States? Correct me if I'm wrong.
The whole situation down there to me sounds like a power struggle.
2
@Ed Moroz If your assumptions were correct, this would not be the first impeachment of a Republican president in the nation's history. Trump is a very, very special case, to say the least.
1
@Ed Moroz Democrats in the House were successful in their impeachment of Trump. The Senate has a trial which is the process for removal. Trump was impeached, however. When Clinton was impeached, no one thought differently. Impeachment is impeachment. Why is this any different or why would anyone want it to be different? The trial is the trial for removal of the impeached individual.
1
@Ed Moroz If the president is impeached and removed, the vice president takes over.
If the vice president is removed, the Speaker of the House takes over.
1
I think that this whole line of thinking is a bit preposterous. To use your own words Nick "truth does have a way of trickling out". That is all we need to stay focused on no matter what trump does or says or his enablers. The truth has a way of busting out, it can't be contained forever and it will liberate us.
2
After the 1972 election both the Democratic and Republican Parties adopted nominally more democratic primary election processes. Unlike general elections, only the most dedicated members of the parties come out for these elections. Perversely, this has given each party's Donor Class (which in many cases are the same people) even greater control over the primaries and therefore the menu of candidates in general elections. The abortion issue can give purpose and meaning to voters who believe that abortion is murder. No matter what one's station in life, saving millions of innocents can (and should be) incredibly motivating.
Although I personally don't share this belief, it's entirely understandable that believers come out for the primaries. The Republican establishment never delivered. But Trump appears to be delivering (while blowing off healthcare, among other promises). Thus, his ability to threaten the re-election of Senators who buck him.
So that's all understandable. But why would McConnell at this point in life care when he knows (he's very smart) that a) Trump is, as Doonesbury once said of Nixon, Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, b) acquitting Trump elevates the Presidency into a monarchy, and c) he's eventually going to lose or die.
Maybe he believes in an afterlife and believes that ending abortion gets him into The Good Place.
Or perhaps like Smeagol in the Lord of the Rings "the Precious" turned him into Gollum. Where's my Samwise Gamgee?
The counterfactual where it was Obama is nonsensical of course. You're asking us to consider how we would act if someone behaviour was consistently exemplary turned out to be misusing the power of his office behind the scenes.
Some have suggested "what if it was Hillary" but even then, as much as I now resent that woman, the smearing of her character for several decades has been outright slander. Lots of reasons not to like Hillary, but none of them fit the Republican Crooked Hillary narrative.
No, the best character for this counterfactual is John Edwards. When we found out about his misuse of campaign funds (I should say alleged misuse, as he was never convicted) to cover up an affair and love child while his wife was dying--well, there was some shock and even some denial. The truth was so at odds with the public persona we had already seen. We didn't want to believe it. But I don't think there's anyone out there who's still Team John Edwards.
But even then, this isn't a fair comparison. Trump's scheme with Ukraine is shocking mostly for how unshocking it is, coming from him. This is not a wild deviation from the Trump that has been on display. It is 100% consistent with that person. He's an objectively horrible person with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. (And man, that is an accomplishment!)
Pussygate, kids in cages, Stormy Daniels, etc. etc. etc. He deserves to be impeached. At this point it's not on us to particularly care for which of a zillion reasons.
4
Imagine if that meant the president faced a weaker candidate in November 2020 — and won re-election as a result.”
Bernie Sanders has NEVER faced the full onslought of a trump campaingn, the way Hilary did in 2016 and the way the trumpers were trying to fabricate a scam against Biden in 2020. Rather, Bernie benefited from Russian aid in 2016.
I hear Bernie bros' stating that he is the only one that can beat 45, but I have grave doubts. 45 will play the Socialist thing to the max, and instigate some sort of shenanigans against Bernie.
4
Republican here who voted for President Obama. He and Reagan were my favorites.
That said, if Pres. Obama were impeached, he'd be gone by now. Deported to Kenya, and forced to drive on the left side of the road.
1
I hate these "what if" questions. In this case there is no "what if". It wasn't Obama who appeared to be guilty of disregarding the United States Constitution and manipulating elections in his favor by blackmailing a foreign power to influence this elections. If you can't even rely on elections in a democracy, what's left of democracy?
3
"Yet I suspect that many Democrats would also switch sides, finding it easier to excuse misconduct by someone they admired"
Tell that to Al Franken. It amazes me that the left gets painted as reactionary for the oft-inflated impact of "cancel culture," while simultaneously accused of hypocrisy that's equivalent to that of the right when it comes to lying and corruption. In the current era, when Democrats find people engaged in sexual harassment and assault, we vote/push/cast them out. And yes, if Bill Clinton were still the president, he'd have to go too. Let's see Republicans do that.
4
Lev Parnas said the atmosphere around Trump was more like that of a CULT than a political one. I agree with him.
4
If nothing else we as a nation should come out of this mess with the knowledge certain that the republican party is a fifth column organization whose only purpose is to enrich themselves at our expense. They have no interest in doing anything for any of the people who are not the born wealthy.
1
Trump isn't fearful but incompetent.
He doesn't understand he can't execute freely the citizens of other countries because such policies could saddle us with another endless and futile wars.
That should be explained to the US citizens.
However Obama was guilty of the same sin.
Why didn't anobody try to impeach Obama for doing it?
Isn't it obvious that such policies have failed to pacify the world and make us more secure over the last few decades.
"An eye for an eye" policy leads to the endless cycle of violence and results in all of us being blind...
I have another thought experiment: imagine what would happen if Donald Trump were on trial.
3
This is the wrong comparison. Unlike Obama supporters trump voters have seen this corruption laden administration pretty clearly. And the verdict time and again is "So What!" These immortal words by deceased Supreme Court Associate Justice, Antonin Scalia are the 2020 platform mantra for trumpisms. Or should be if the republicans' were honest.
This happens to be the current republicans' dominated U.S. Senate defense of the 'donald's' behaviors, regardless of what topic, or what subject the spotlight shines upon. Kids in cages, so what! Undermine national security in trashing NATO, so what! 16,000 outright lies, so what! The Ukraine affair is not an impeachable offense: same thing. No matter what the response is, so what!
No president has ever been publicly "Caught" in both this blatantly corrupt set of "Words and Deeds." So What! it's an easy bumper sticker, small and concise. It does however cover the entire country in shame.
No, there isn't another president that can compete with trump as the very worst offender of any standard that American citizens have ever experienced in the public eyes and ears. So this thought experiment will fall flat.
Americans have certainly ignored the great faults of some president's past, but then they were shielded from all the unpleasantness of knowing the complete truth. Or not at least in the appearance of wanton corruption, never.
2
Normally I don't do hypotheticals, but the last question I'll answer: " Shouldn’t we have as high a standard for the president of the United States as for a school vice principal?"
Yes, of course, absolutely and more so. I imagine more than half of the American people are ashamed of Trump, his behavior and his despicable lack of character. That alone is not impeachable, of course, but no one like that should ever attain the presidency of the United States. That Trump has says something dreadful has happened to we the people.
1
I'm assuming that private U.S. citizens such as attorney Rudy Giuliani, and foreign freelancer Lev Parnas, etc., are not usually entitled to implement a President's personal agenda in foreign affairs, for example, getting rid of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. Lev is most likely using recordings to mitigate punishment. Has Rudy committed statutory crimes? Long list of pardoned and imprisoned Trump associates.
Kristof has provided us with an excellent thought experiment; but as much as we would love to forget or ignore it, Republicans would have waged a more virulent impeachment campaign against Obama for no other reason that he is so different in every way from what they are and for what they stand for. I would guess that they would have flayed him alive, figuratively speaking. The fact of the matter is that Republicans have given up any moral and legal consideration. It seems that they have embraced their reptilian brain: survival at any cost and by any means necessary.
2
Look at what the Senate did to Obama's choice for the Supreme Court. Do you think, if there were a credible suggestion of "presidential misconduct" by Obama that they would not have crucified him. Bengahzi on steroids.
We all also know, that if HRC had become president in the 2016 election the R's of the House would have been gunning for her from the moment THEY were sworn in and be issuing subpoena's for emails, the server etc before inauguration day. If Pres Clinton refused even one piece of paper, one witness, one slight suggestion of privilege they would not only have screamed bloody murder, there would have been obstruction of congress articles.
My money is in that alternate reality HRC would have been impeached by within the first two years.
I was an R for 37 years, but quit last year because of the R's total abandonment of reason, and reasonableness. The lock step endorsement and fealty to Trump is disgusting. They certainly do not seek to follow constitutional guidance. I do not know what they want anymore except unrestrained power and accumulation of wealth- to the further diminishment of this once great nation.
Let's hope the next president can undo the damage.
2
Fight to the Finish
Get a leg up, nose out his rival
Race to the wire, insure his arrival
First of just two with no scruples to win -
Get the advantage with the race to begin;
No fault and no foul, the Trump-meister claims
Contra the Dems, heaping scorn and disdain
(Second helpings, of course, on TV each night
Boring the country, the Dems are half-bright);
End game we know, Trump wins re-election -
Pelosi, et al, played to perfection.
Beyond noting that it remains a very, very bad idea to try and airily dismiss Nancy Pelosi like this, my suggestion’d be that you learn a little scansion and rhyme before next time.
Try Coleridge’s, “Metrical Feet,” maybe pick up a copy of the “Norton Intro to Lit,” find out how this stuff works. Certinly don’t try the tricky Auden or Yeats stuff till you figure out that “claims,” doesn’t rhyme with, “disdain,” and isn’t even a good choice for what’s called “slant rhyme.”
Another question: What if it had been Israel from whom Trump had withheld desperately needed military aid?
3
If Obama did what Trump did re Ukraine, I first would have been disappointed and disillusioned. With Trump and his GOP enablers my reaction is business as usual and fear for our republic.
So Trump CAN shoot, kill and get away with murder. Just didn't think it would be our democracy.
2
What a ridiculous question.
1
if the Senate Intelligence committee decided that there was no point in investigating the government of Ukraine for US election meddling, then how come the same senators allow Trump's lawyers to say exactly the opposite during their opening statements on Saturday? Isn't that lying, under oath? Don't the senators have a duty to require that their own work be accurately represented?
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/02/senate-panel-ukraine-election-interference-074796
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf. begin at page 14
3
It is so sad to see such hypocrisy from Republicans. Hypocrites have no shame - and we the public put our hopes in our elected officials to have the necessary ingredient of a sense of shame so they won't do things that harm the unsuspecting public.
Trump, McConnell, Graham, Fox News - none of them have a sense of shame.
3
Big difference between Obama and trump: whatever President Obama did was with thoughtful consideration and input from advisors and a basic love of this nation.
Trump does his nonsense without listening to those smarter than he. He makes his decisions on what his needs are..never mind this nation, its future or humanity in general. He is a weak and foolish, failed human being!
4
After listening to some but not most of the house managers, I have concluded that obstruction of congress is by far the most serious violation of public trust and the Constitution in our nation's history. The ability to impeach a president requires the president to obey the law, and this includes honoring subpoenas. Barr clearly sees the president as not being beholden to Congress in any way, shape or form. This is the real danger, and it is truly scary to think of what this president could do in a second term.
One other point. We should not forget that the Clinton impeachment came out of the Whitewater investigation, which of course turned up nothing that remotely approached an impeachable offense.
6
@Lee: The US is a fractal mosaic of corporations culminating in the public corporation where we each represent one share, the federal government.
1
The question that needs to be ask Mr. Kristof is if Trump were black male and Obama was a white male would any of this be going on? Are we watching the Republicans demonstrating their strong belief of white male privilege? Sure appears that the Republicans have based their defense on this belief.
3
Nixon was allowed to resign and negotiated a pardon to escape prosecution. So he did get preferential treatment, and justice was not really served, because for his crimes he should have landed in federal jail, without lifetime pension or secret service protection. So in a way justice was not fair equivalent to what an ordinary citizen would get without political influence, high priced lawyers, and friends in high office willing to offer him deals or Mulligans. The evidence is that in the USA the application of justice discriminates and does not dispense blind decisions to all citizens.
If one can afford the best lawyers with corresponding political influence, justice may be applied with a lot more leniency, than to the regular John Doe, so in a way our justice system is flawed.
2
I remember every second of Nixon's time in office. "The Establishment" was not served with "True Justice". Simply because Nixon was president and intelligent did not exclude him from "True Justice" although Gerald Ford (who was not so intelligent) pardoned him. Nixon deserved the ultimate justice: "Capital Punishment" (no pun intended).
1
Obama was too meticulous and cautious in avoiding conflict and controversy. There is no other explanation why he didn't sue McConnell for his blatant violation of Article II Section 2 regarding for McConnell's pocket veto of the Merrick Garland nomination to the Supreme Court. Sometimes raising conflict in a just cause is no vice and holding back in defending a presidential prerogative is no virtue.
2
Malcolm X surely didn't escape "True Justice". He (and the other Black Panthers) had their home "detonated" by the good old US of A.
Malcolm X was never a Panther, and you’re actually thinking of either the SLA or MOVE in Philly. Both appeared after the man was assassinated, if memory serves.
I watch the US politics and particularly this Impeachment process with interest. The US has three branches of Government, the third being the Supreme Court. To avoid all of the political postering and obvious imbalance of opinion, I would think that the Supreme Court Judge sitting in the Hearings, should be acting as a Judge running a Court Room i.e. calling of witnesses, presentation of evidence, cross examination etc. Otherwise this is just another case of “She Said” (Nancy) and “He Said” (Mitch) and nothing resembling true Justice will have been served.
3
It's all about:
where and when: in the WH, before an election,
the what: asking a "favor" as current president facing reelection to investigate a political rival to benefit himself,
and most importantly the who: A FOREIGN POWER! while withholding aid the Congress had already voted to award.
If I loved a president's policies, it wouldn't make this egregious action any more "right."
Right Matters.
What I love is my country and want to protect our freedom from foreign intervention in our elections.
What I hate is anyone who would try to subvert the election process, or meddle in our freedom to vote.
Allowing or inviting another nation to influence our election subverts one of our countries basic premises in the revolution our forebears fought: The basic right of a nation to govern itself without foreign intervention, the Self Determination of nations and governments.
Ironically, this is also what Ukraine is fighting for these days, to not be a puppet of Russia.
2
This is a rhetorical question that will haunt future presidents. Impeachment rather than an election will become the default option for unpopular presidents.
@W. Ogilvie
Agree in part with your statement: "Impeachment rather than an election will become the default option" for presidents.
Bananas, anyone?
1
Katyal's theory is happening in real life, before our eyes. Biden is going to be significantly damaged by this-- Bernie will likelier be the Democratic nominee-- and Trump will have gotten exactly what he wanted, with no consequences.
2
@Jonathan Except that Bernie is the stronger candidate anyway. To Trump applies the axiom "be careful what you wish for". Bernie is the only candidate with grass-roots excitement behind him and that's what it takes. Biden's struggles are not because of the Ukraine situation. Socialist Schmocialist. If Bernie becomes the nominee it will be more of a fight that people think.
1
This thought experiment only shows how party politics is destructive to America. If there was a loyalty to the branch of
government as strong or equal to party it would make no difference if Trump or Obama did it they would be gone because this was not only an attack on the other party it is an attack on Congress. Refusal to spend authorized money and blanket refusal to cooperate with witnesses and documents. Any Congress that allows this is no longer a separate branch of government. Unfortunately we lost a Congress for almost 50 years.
2
Excellent, excellent arguments. However, if Fox propaganda (not really news) went all-in defending said vice principal with lies and innuendo, and attacked the vice principal's wife, the vice principal probably would have gotten away with it, too. This is why Fox and the rest of the right wing misinformation/propaganda network (Breitbart, Limbaugh, Sinclair Broadcasting, etc) is the single biggest threat to democracy in the history of the U.S. They also are the biggest impediment to solving the many complex problems the US faces (climate change, international diplomacy, immigration issues, etc). This is because solving big, complex problems requires honest, critical thinking. Misinformation and propaganda impede such thinking. THIS is why we have the political stalemate we have today on so many, many issues.
5
No one should kid themselves. If the Republicans had had a chance to impeach Obama they would have done it. He would have been impeached, convicted, thrown out of office, and if they could have managed it he would have been criminally charged in the courts, convicted and jailed. Before the 2016 election Republicans said if Hillary Clinton were elected they would start impeachment proceedings on Day One of her presidency--talk about trying to overturn an election. We are living in a dishonest, corrupt, hypocritical time. A minority of this country is controlling the majority. There will be no clearer proof of this than the success of Trump's abuse of power and obstruction as the Senate acquits him and he wakes up the next morning running a government that he now owns. Trump will put on the mantle of dictator, unitary executive, monarch, or dictator. You choose your favorite term. It will mean the same thing. American Democracy has died. And perhaps Trump's revenge on his political enemies will begin. Who can stop him? We can't even count on free and fair elections in November as we all know what happened in 2016 with Russian interference. Good luck to us all. We will need it.
5
To this day, I do not understand why Clinton denied having sex with an intern, instead of simply replying: "None of your business."
Neither a gentleman, nor a lady should EVER answer such indiscreet questions--unless, of course, the person who asks has a right to know the answer. His wife did, not so the American public.
Perhaps I am being too European...
And yet, a few years ago I saw a nice American, mainstream film that addressed precisely this point.
4
Unfortunately, having such a relationship with someone whom you manage is not “nobody’s business”. Although Clinton’s behavior IMHO did not rise to an impeachable level, he did have to answer the question and he was out of bounds having the relationship.
Obama knew that his slightest misstep -- much less an abuse of power -- would be demonized. Trump, on the other hand, has spent a lifetime flouting social and legal norms; the presidency to him is nothing more than another scam to enrich himself and his family. There are too many entities -- the Fox enterprise, the GOP, and white people everywhere who realize their relevancy is declining -- who benefit from having this fundamentally dishonest man in office. It is a sad and even painful thing to see how he has tainted the reputation and integrity of his party.
3
The fact that Obama attempted to appease Iran and North Korea with billions upon billions of dollars in outright bribes and nuclear technology in an attempt to halt their development of nuclear weapons, and failed miserably, seems to make a very good case for impeachment. His actions endangered the safety of the American people and emboldened both Iran and North Korea to expand their provocative ballistic missile testing and nuclear weapons technology, while the U.S. received absolutely nothing in return.
4
@ Paul your comments may be your opinion, but they are not fact. In other words you didnt agree with his policies, but President Obama never violated the law or abused the power of his office. Obama had integrity, and served this nation in good faith. The same can not be said about our current President
6
The intent of the Iran agreement, backed by our EU allies, Russia, and China, was to gradually open the door of bringing Iran, a sophisticated, modern, and relatively secular culture, into the family of nations while preventing their development of a nuclear weapon. And it was working. Claims of bribery with millions of dollars or technology are fiction promoted without basis on Fox and sketchy web pages.
3
The sad truth here is the Republicans care more about power. They are use to telling people what to do not being told what to do having made laws to do as such. As for there followers they are lost in a sea of false information and beliefs.
2
"...the Republicans will see this differently." No, they don't. We know and you said that they know what kind of a person trump is. They don't see it differently. The fact is they don't care and that's worse. Because looking at it that way, it means any traitorous behavior will be overlooked by the republicans.
6
Others have paved the way.
The girls are grown now, they'll be fine.
Michelle Obama -- it's not too late!
Clinton deserved censure for behavior unbecoming to a President. Removal from office? Exactly what harm was done to the country or its national security? The only ones really harmed were himself and his willing partner and that only because the affair became public. Only because the Javert-like prosecutor investigating a non-existent financial scandal brought to light an unseemly act did Clinton opponents latch onto it to try to bring him down. Most voters rightly saw that as an abuse of power by hypocritical Republican Congressmen, many of whom had engaged in their own extra-marital affairs. The contrast with Trump's impeachment could not be starker. Suppose there had been no whistle blower. The implications are clearly outlined by Mr. Kristof, no need to repeat them.
3
As I listen to this, I cannot believe we let Reagan get away with the Iran Contra Finagle! Ukraine/Biden looks like peanuts compared to that.
3
Republicans would have impeached Obama in a heartbeat if they had ANYthing on him. If Obama, or Hillary Clinton, or any Democrat was in the White House acting like Trump, I would absolutely support their impeachment and removal. Presidents should be held to a very high standard of character and Donald gets an F.
Look on the bright side, there is one silver lining to Trump's inevitable acquittal in the Senate. Mike Pence will not become President.
3
Republicans view their party like most Americans view our favorite football team - devotedly (and uncritically) supporting them through thick and thin, through good seasons and terrible seasons, through obviously poor off-field behaviors and controversies, etc.
When we're talking sports, it's fun and generally harmless. Not so when we're talking about anything else.
6
I'm old enough to have voted for Nixon twice (Republican raised although somewhat Liberal). I had no trouble realizing that he had to go. It did not make me a Democrat right away but contributed heavily to my eventual conversion.
4
We can talk 'till we're blue in the face but the Republicans in the Senate still run the show. Somebody elected them. I guess it was us.
@Robert McKee: Your comment tips up a structural flaw in our system, as a matter of fact. The Republican majority in the Senate was not ‘elected by us’; it represents a minority of the American population. Wyoming, with a population of well under one million people, is represented by two Senators — both not surprisingly ‘conservative’ Republicans.
California, with a population of 40 million people, also has two Senators to represent those many millions of people and the vast tax base they comprise. Yet dozens of Republican Senators, from Wyoming and other sparsely populated states, can readily overwhelm California’s two Senators. They will decide not only public policy affecting those 40 million people - they will decide how an enormous amount of tax money paid by Californians will be spent. It should come as no surprise then that California receives less federal money back than it pays in; and most of the sparsely populated, economically challenged ‘red states’ receive far more money back than they pay in federal taxes.
Combined with concerted Republican efforts at voter suppression and gerrymandering, and the other major structural flaw - the Electoral College - a minority of America now has an iron grip on our federal government. And the ‘blue states,’ disenfranchised as they are, are subject to taxation without representation.
Sound like a viable system? Not for long, I’d guess. Think ‘Boston Tea Party.’
The country is in the control of the minority, the only way the minority maintains its power is to be totally committed to one another and their leader. We no longer live in a democracy and all of your what if’s are useless if we are becoming a fascist state where the Constitution is just a rag to clean up the mess.
7
In a true republic the people would have the final say, but the current senate is unfairly weighted in favor of the Republicans. The Democratic minority actually represents more voters than does the Republican majority. In this impeachment the Dems will be out-voted. Facts will be ignored or covered up and Trump will be acquitted. As Trump himself loves to say, "it's all a sham; the system is rigged."
5
How could this piece have been written without considering, minimally, Obama's indisputable action to ask for a concession from a foreign adversary for the benefit of his political gain? Using the Schiff standard, Obama would have been gone. And, yes, by today's standard, Clinton should have been impeached, but probably more so for what he did to Juanita Broadderick.
7
"What if it were Obama who had been caught in this Ukraine scandal?"
This is the point which we're missing. The impeachment of Trump isn't about the Republicans, it's about Trump.
The Republicans need to realize that Trump is not the Republican Party. He is merely a caricature of what is wrong with the Republican Party. Remove him, and not all would be fixed, but the groundwork toward healing would be established.
The Republicans should let Trump be convicted. Get rid of him, and let President Pence reset the tone of the Party toward something more palatable to the electorate. (A fantasy, perhaps.) But if the Republicans lose in the election this year (from my lips to God's ears) it will be because of Trump, not because of any regressive actions the Party itself has taken (even with such a wide array of them to choose from).
Speaking of fantasies, what I'd like to see is a deal made with Trump. If he agreed to not run for a second term, then Congress would let him finish out his first and only term with no further pressure to remove him. Let him go out quietly, and promise him that no further investigations into his private finances or relationship with Putin or duping the government into paying $150 million in his golf fees would be done. He would be scot free. If he doesn't agree to this, and announce it very publicly, then it would all continue, even after his second term if he wins, and would end up with him in jail.
It will never happen. But, just imagine...
3
Regarding the last: Virtually any CEO who had an affair with an intern would have been fired even in the 90's.
As to the second, Trump didn't ask Zel to find dirt on Biden, he asked him to look into a known situation that smacks of corruption. Whether Biden is running for office or not is irrelevant. That doesn't exempt him from investigation.
Further, remember the candidate and party that gathered info about wrongdoing on a presidential candidate from foreign sources in 2016? That was HRC. and the data was fake.
But your first point is correct but you need to phrase it better. This is nothing but a political exercise and all the dems screaming about the horror of Ukraine didn't scream at all about Obama interfering in Israel's election. They didn't scream when Obama said to tell Val he'd have more flex on missiles after the election. And they didn't scream when Obama and admin said Benghazi was a spontaneous reaction to a film.
3
Paradoxically, Donald Trump has expropriated Franklin Roosevelt's admonition that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." He has peddled and harnessed fear for his own political advantage, but it is a fear of those who are disadvantaged and different from us rather than the fear of doing the wrong thing.
That makes Trump amoral to a fault, or immoral to a fair thee well, but in either case, he's managed to convince roughly half of America that a rogue president who spits in the eye of decency and lawfulness is the victim rather than the perp that he is.
Yes, there are risks in overusing impeachment as a remedy for presidents we do not like. But the greater risk is the fear of using it when it stems from a fear of losing what we selfishly covet, regardless of the indecency of a willful and wrongful act by a president. In such cases, FDR was correct.
It is, indeed, fear that we have to fear, and it should scare any decent-minded and thoughtful American beyond words, particularly while half of us cynically strut and crow about how much we profess to love America and what it stands for.
4
Voted for Clinton twice. Thrice if you include Hillary. Thought at the time that he should have been removed for perjury and obstruction of justice. Considering that it was Republicans that made Nixon's removal possible I'm not sure there would have been enough Democrats to defend Obama had he committed Trump's crimes. You must remember that there is a new factor here - the Trump cult and Republican spinelessness and lack of integrity.
@Patrick Flynn
Good points. But you left out the new factor for Democrats - the Progressive wing. Many if not most of them are not good with math but do know that many people like 'free' stuff.
It would be naive to think that the GOP was not frantically turning over every rock they could in hopes of finding some reason to impeach Obama. For eight years. Of course they did.
They didn't find diddly-squat, so they went after a much easier target, Hillary Clinton. Benghazi Benghazi Bengazi, Emails Emails Emails.
The Republicans today say that the Democrats were out to get Trump from the start. Of course they were. He had a lifetime pattern of flaunting laws, no government experience, and questionable appointees, like Michael Flynn.
The difference is, the Democrats found reasons. Reasons that indicate a threat to national security and a disregard for the rule of law.
That's the difference.
5
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t have any problem with impeaching Donald Trump.
I have a problem with impeaching the incumbent president over a phone call to the Ukraine president demanding investigation whether the US Vice-president requested the sacking of the Ukraine state prosecutor investigating whether his son was illegally hired by a Ukraine company, especially if the foreign aid was conditioned by such an illegal sacking. Vice president Biden wasn’t paying it out of own pocket but blocked the congressionally allocated aid.
I would personally impeach Trump over assassination of Iranian general Suleimani. Nobody is above the law. The US president cannot personally determine whether to assassinate any US citizen because the criminal guilt of anybody is in the hands of the judicial branch.
Legally, the US president cannot determine whether to assassinate any citizen of any other country. Those citizens are subjects of the other countries and their judicial branches.
There is the tectonic legal separation of all aspects of government – the executive, the legislative and the judicial ones.
The only legal prerogative of the US President is to demand the Congress to declare the war on Iran.
There is, or should be, room for a question concerning morals, integrity, honesty.
If I were a congress woman voting for or against impeachment, I would have to ask myself if this sitting president was being honest, showing truthfulness, willing to let witnesses speak.
If I were, right now, a jury member for this impeachment, the answer is, with all the evidence shown and the refusal of the GOPers to allow witnesses, he deserves to be impeached.
These thought experiments are always hilarious. I am a life long Democrat and part of the 10% or so, who do not believe in removal, nor do I believe the President should have been impeached. His behavior was untoward , and I believe a censure vote would have been more appropriate. I also believe Biden's son gaming the family name was untoward. It turns out both things can be true. I have seen Adam Schiff lie repeatedly, and get caught in his lies. I have watched Trump lie repeatedly and get caught in those lies. It turns out both things can be true. People need to stop choosing sides, and learn to be objective. We have an election coming up, the voters, if they choose, can be informed of these facts and make their choices. I am sure I will be lambasted for this comment, proving people can't come out of their ideological foxholes. That is the real problem. One your little thought experiment will not resolve. Objective reporting and opinion pieces from both sides would do a great deal to help minimize that inadequacy.
1
Actually, this happened. The President's name was Clinton.
Human nature being what it is, it's not difficult to appreciate the Republican position on the president. As long as Republicans allow a minority of citizens to flaunt the most base racist instincts, practice religious oppression, allow unbridled corruption, the experiment in democracy will have come to an end. The complacency of the majority and general apathy invites more of the same.
I can assure you, nothing will change until Right thinking Americans force change. Either at the ballot box or thru removal from office via the constitutional remedy.
2
Why would either Trump or Obama be on trial?
The left and the right media outlets have existed at least over the last quarter of century, meaning our free press has been ridden with bias, lying and pick-and-choose reporting during the same period.
For God’s sake, we have been waging the longest war in our national history for longer than 18 years because we blamed the Afghan people for the terrorist ideology born in the Saudi Arabia and the terrorist organization created, led, manned, trained and financed by the Saudis.
We invaded Iraq to destroy the non-existent WMD.
We overthrew the semi-socialist government in Libya and Syria that were the best dam to the spread of the radical ideology, thus creating the perfectly fertile ground for the rise of the ISIS.
However, we have never impeached anybody for those catastrophically colossal mistakes but want to impeach Trump over a single phone call to Zelinsky to verify whether an elected official was corrupted or not?
It means we are more afraid of Trump because he wrongly thinks he is the greatest man of this planet than the endless wars that created the millions of veterans with the PTSD and cost us several trillion dollars that could have paid for the universal health care without any doubt.
We never found the culprits for those failures.
Even worse, we’ve never tried to find them. We just ran a cover-up operation.
Yes, Nick. Yes. But, as Bob Mueller pointed out—painfully—the charter insists that a "sitting President cannot be charged with a crime." Change that—and then put Trump and company in the frying pan they deserve for destroying our Constitution and democracy. Business leaders with NIKE, General Electric, and the Ratheon Corp --some wickedly conservative-- have all spoken out that this malfeasance shall strange the US for another 25 years.
1
The tone of Democrats seems to be that if Obama had done something like trump they would want him removed, that he had betrayed his trust. I believe that the Republicans and many independents have no such values or beliefs and that is why trumps behavior does not bother them. They do not expect and perhaps do not even want him to act above the level of thug. Look how they respond to his cruelty and degrading behavior at his rallies. As long as the stock market is up and he is attacking people they don’t like, they are happy. Why would they want him removed. Bread and circuses.
1
Worth noting: the GOP's contention that removing Trump is tantamount to nullifying the election 3+ years ago is utterly absurd, given that Pence would become Prez.
Related: Why don't the goopers in Congress see that getting rid of Trump in time for Pence (who's just as slithery and awful as DT, and therefore just as appealing to their base) to take the mantle of incumbent for the election would likely be a better strategy for remaining relevant than goose-stepping behind Deplorable Don?
1
Suppose he started an illegal war, condoned torture, and was responsible for the greatest foreign policy disaster in American history.
Suppose he secretly sold arms to Iran in order to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua.
1
President Obama did assert that he had the unilateral right to order the murder anyone he choose, including American citizens, through drone strikes. He then carried out many such extrajudicial killings. This is a blatant abuse of the power of the Presidency and for this he should have been impeached.
3
Democrats would be doing what they did during the Clinton show trials. They would be folllwing established norms in the pursuit of the truth. Republicans only understand "winning" at any cost.
2
There are different ways to look at corruption, depending on one's vantage point. One is as a business opportunity and another is as a cancer which will eventually destroy the society. It depends on whether your interest is in public service or private gain, and that difference between Obama and Trump makes comparison specious.
1
Perhaps another thought experiment would be to imagine that instead of committing an act that threatened the welfare of our country, trump had been involved in a sexual dalliance in the oval office and that lied about it under oath. (OK not that hard to imagine). Although I am second to none in my contempt for Mr. Trump, I would NOT regard those acts as 'high crimes and misdemeanors' and would NOT support impeachment no matter how I feel about trump as a president.
2
"Obama was meticulous in avoiding scandal and ethical conflicts."
Hmm. Then how did he and his wife suddenly end up with a fortune that can probably be reckoned in the tens of millions of dollars shortly after leaving office? I know this is pretty standard in Washington, and by the rules that the Washington elites themselves set up, it's all immaculately legal. Of course! Look at the Biden family and probably many Republicans as well. All pure as driven snow. And how dare we hoi polloi even hint at some impropriety!
Nonetheless, from a purely rational, down-to-earth standpoint, this stinks to high heaven. In Obama's case, bailing out the bankers with trillions of dollars while letting millions of homeowners be evicted may (or may not) have have been a factor clearing the runway for a takeoff to astronomical wealth today. We'll never know. But what we can say is that trading on one's public service like this is an abomination.
It almost makes me want to vote for another billionaire -- if only to avoid another spectacle of money grubbing on an extravagant scale.
3
In general, Democrats are more willing to penalize their own for misconduct (see Franken). If Obama (or, much more likely, Clinton) had withheld approved aid to Ukraine in exchange for an investigation into Mitt Romney, many liberals would have been outraged. They would have requested all the facts. And enough would have voted to impeach (and simply get Biden in the WH).
There will be ,because of this ,an Obama on trial. Washington is a two way street and because of this travesty of justice we witness today it is only a matter of time before a Democrat is drawn and quartered without substantiation.Years and tens of millions wasted in the political coup because of partisan machinations. Americans remember ,elections are where we choose ,not the courts.
2
Forget legal theory. Whatever impeachment was meant to be, I think it's primarily a political act. Trump's conduct in the Ukraine thing is nothing compared to the coup Eisenhower let the CIA sponsor in Iran to overthrow a democratically elected government and put the Shah in power, and his likely role in plotting the murder of Patrice Lumumba; Kennedy's Bay of Pigs invasion; Johnson's Vietnam War; and Bush's invasion of Iraq. If we support, or don't mind, what a president did, then what he did is okay, no matter how wrong it was.
I voted for Clinton and despise Trump, but the high dudgeon and Schiff's Cicero act (How long, O Trump, will you go on abusing our patience?) over Ukraine is laughable. I fear that we Dems are going to regret this impeachment in the future. Our presidents haven't exactly been choir boys, and they won't be in future, or choirgirls, either.
Inequality and forever wars are the biggest threat to our democracy. They are what is hurting us most, not Trump. The party should be spending its time and energy finding the best possible presidential candidate for nomination in 2020, to ensure a win, and prepping someone up for 2024, not wasting them on this pointless sideshow. But we're caught up now in our own whirlwind of rhetoric.
Look out for the "deplorables" in November. You think they care about Ukraine?
2
Some commenters note that they would have a hard time imagining Obama doing something like this.
But that's exactly what he did do.
The press has given him a hall pass on the the FBI's misdeeds related to the Trump campaign, exposed by Horowitz and others. Does anyone actually believe that he was unaware of this investigation ?
However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. John Durham's investigation will very likely provide the evidence chain necessary to make the connections between the lies underlying the predication of the FBI activity sourced from the Democratic Party apparatus, the Clinton campaign, and the Obama administration.
And with the failed impeachment in the rearview mirror, the media will be looking for the next lurid tale, and this should be it.
3
Yes, you touched on it in the article: Obama being impeached would be so out of character for the man, while many, many rational and thoughtful people were pondering how tRump's impeachment would go down...while he was still on the campaign trail. This isn't merely a case of those hostile to tRump, in principle, thinking the worst; this is because litigation against is so in keeping with what we know, presume and/or suspect about the man. The fact that academics, the man on the street and many, many other categories of folks were imagining the shameful crimes and misdemeanors of trump well before his election is, for me, proof that Americans in general are morally, ethically and rationally challenged. People no longer know what good is. Trump should be investigated for so many other "crimes": rabble-rousing hate-mongers, mocking the dis-advantaged or the handicapped, starting useless trade wars that cripple the American labor pool, then crowing glorious victory when he capitulates...so much more than Ukraine to gripe about. Obama never would have been here, and even those opposed to him know this. Remember McCain chastising the woman who said he was a Muslim? Trump should be impeached again and again and again. If he gets off this time, the House should send more articles to the Senate. There's so much to choose from. Obama? Well it would be unimaginable.
The whole purpose of religion is to make people gullible. That is why the Republicans are so determined to defy "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
2
Obama is an honest man to the core. What would they indict him for, early on grey hair?
1
intellectual honesty?!
thanks for the knee slapper.
1
Yes, imagine if Obama had refused to provide weapons to Ukraine (say, while we're playing make believe, because he was concerned about the significant number of neo-Nazi's in their midst), or say, he suffered (or even authorized) his Vice President to travel to Ukraine and threaten to their leadership with withholding previously committed loan guaranties unless they fired a disfavored official. Or say he intervened into the internal legal workings of the Spanish judicial system to assure impunity for Bush Administration war crimes.
Hard to fathom.
Your “what if” would never be even if there were adequate evidence simply because the media had a love affair with Obama who could do no wrong. The media salivated over His every move. Whereas it is clear that Trump does not enjoy the same privilege. Since the days after the election, impeachment talk has been part of the liberal narrative pushed by the media. The economy is flourishing, workers are seeing their 401k investments spike and unemployment for minorities is at a record low. An enemy of the United States responsible for numerous deaths is killed. Sounds like positive accomplishments? No, not according to the media spin who wait for a disparaging photo of Trump and then pounces. Headlines will read “Trump hates successful women” or “Trump marriage on the rocks” . It has become comical and obvious that the media does not like this guy. Not to mention the disgraceful coverage of the first lady. We have an acconplished,educated woman in the White House and all the media chooses to report on is her poor choice in shoes.
But as long as you suggest it, let’s put Obama on trial and see what he knew about Biden and his son’s cushy job. What about all the money given to Iran for his “deal”. Did this money actually help our enemies? As long as we are at it, was Obama aware of the Clinton e-mails?
2
Mr. Kristoff, you make the assumption that Republicans think fairly and care to discern right from wrong. The Senate has declared that it will not hold a fair trial and that it will move to acquit Trump without any witnesses and with the utmost speed. Trump is a useful idiot to McConnell. Trump’s antics serve to keep us sane, moral, and ethical people occupied while the wily Majority Leader does the real dirty work in the background. Destroying our environment, appointing activist judges, and on and on. This is not about fairness or seeing the other side. This is about power. Pure and simple power. And keeping it indefinitely.
2
The end of the republican party: they cannot recover. Bribery is good, and even should be part of American foreign policy? That's mafia, not good government!
All the excuses, all the justifications that 'the world just runs that way, we have to get in there with despots and opportunists, war profiteers and white nationalists, in order to be effective in an ugly world."
What a nasty place our 'shining city on a hill' has become.
2
I am a conservative, so let's get that straight. Now, I never held Obama to be dishonest or overtly conniving. However, no one gets elected president without both of the above; just some are better at it than others.
Obama was an empty suit. He talked a nice game and fit the prototype with which America seemed comfortable. He was the sort who would go along to get along.
This country needed an iconoclast; someone who would shake up the tried and supposedly true institutions. That person is Trump. His manner and presentation leave much to be desired, but there is far more to that office than good tailoring and a teleprompter.
In terms of international damage, Trump called out the NATO members to finally pony up their share to defend Europe. He put aside trade treaties that were not in the best interest of the US. So, the Europeans do not like him. Too bad. I don't live in Europe. In Iran he took out a warlord rather than doing what Obama did; give them money. Politics in the middle east make the mafia look like a local PTA.
In sum, maybe what is necessary to be a good president is a spine.
58
@Bill
Pigs have spines too.
145
@Bill Do I understand you to be saying that it does not matter what trump does as long as he gets some results of which you approve?
189
@Bill your empty suit saved the US economy and allowed me to buy healthcare for my wife who had a pre existing condition. A number of my friends know Trump. A spine is or a moral compass is something he definitely doesn’t have. I hope you aren’t teaching your grandchildren that the ends justify the means.
332
Richard Feynman, famous physicist and Nobel Laureate, declared that the first principle in science is not to fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. Kristof is laying out some good principles one can use to "not fool oneself"
But he, along with many other enlightenment protectors, are fighting another principle that drives human behavior enunciated by Feynman in his Cargo Cult Science graduation speech at Caltech. In this, he states "I have just one wish for you—the good luck to be somewhere where you are free to maintain the kind of integrity I have described, and where you do not feel forced by a need to maintain your position in the organization, or financial support, or so on, to lose your integrity."
1
Amen Mr. Kristof. Been suggesting the closing argument scene from "A Time to Kill" as the perfect closing argument for the House managers. To paraphrase "Close your eyes, and imagine if President Trump is a Democrat"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mHf7rA5cY
2
If it were Obama on trial, Republicans would have been greasing the skids before opening statements.
There's going to be a bloodbath at the voting booth in November.
1
Sorry, but this is a failed thought experiment which gives ephemeral short shrift to the scenario of Democrats' approach to an Obama impeachment. While we would not be nearly as willfully blind to Obama's high crime or misdemeanor as the Republicans are to Trump's, I am sure we would prosecute to the hilt our stubborn delusion of Obama's essential goodness in angry response to the Republicans' push to impeach. Our shame would be extreme, magnified by the shock of his possible defeat! It would almost be better to be shameless -- like the Republicans.
A last answer to a last query: of course we should, but you're asking the wrong people
It is often a useful philosophical exercise to look at something "from another angle."
But ethics are ethics. And the ethics of Donald Trump are criminal. From every angle. Our American President had his father's agents walk into his failing Trump casino and buy over $3 million in chips to help the balance sheet? That's all we need to know. If Trump's supporters think that's how America does business, if anyone thinks that's how America does business, then "looking from another angle" won't help. Because they're blind.
Let's cut to the chase - a person as clearly lacking in character as Trump should never have come close to the office of president in the most powerful and influential nation on the planet. That he has is an issue we must address if we are to survive as a democracy. We can thought-experiment all we want, and I have, but this situation is simply a national disgrace.
Governments lie right in our faces because they know how ignorant so many people are.
There is no way a radar operator can confuse an airliner climbing out on an established flight path, and identifying itself automatically by transponder, with a ground-hugging bobbing and weaving cruise missile. Iran's air defense system probably was hacked, but as the article points out, Iran can't confess that its own purchased air defense system can be turned against it.
Obama abuse of power not to propose Iran deal as a treaty, requiring Senate vote. That is plausible.
Here is a thought experiment. Donald Trump jr is paid millions for doing nothing by a foreign government receiving billions from US. How does that one play out?
And how is he a Putin puppet if he gives missiles to Poland and Ukraine. Here is another thought experiment. Russia sells missiles to Canada and mexico. Would that make Putin a Trump stooge? Is that how a foreign asset acts?
1
Obama could have been impeached for at least for reasons...1. Obstruction of Congress for not honoring subpoenas in the "Fast and Furious" investigation....2. His failure to execute the laws of the United States by not enforcing the "Defense of Marriage Act"...3. His withholding congressional approved money to Ukraine unless a particular prosecutor was fired (kind of shaky, but if the Biden connection came out, it could have been politically actionable)....4. The Obama administration's investigation into the Trump campaign, which included asking foreign governments for information on the Trump campaign during the election...On this one, Obama would claim the investigation was justified..Just as Trump claims....So it's not so far fetched to believe that future Presidents won't be threatened with impeachment for the actions taken by Obama listed above..It's a political question for the accusers...Can they gain political power and influence by the use of impeachment, particularly when they know they have no chance of removal? Or will they look like whiners just trying to stir up trouble?
1
@Lindsey E. Reese : And the majority GOP chose not to follow that because they are such good people that govern in the interest of our country.
Should President Obama have done these things that 45 has done, he should be immediately removed from office, and those who are complicit in his state crimes, should face trials!
This approach to consideration of impeachment has been suggested by others, both at the NYT and elsewhere. It’s good advice, of course, but it doesn’t mean squat to the GOP. I say that because it appears not a single Republican Senator has even hinted at voting to impeach, despite the fact that any semi-conscious human can find nothing but guilt in Trump’s Ukraine affair.
And what do Republican Senators want to talk about after the president’s so-called attorneys finished their first day arguments? They say those lawyers won the day with their arguments that Democrats want only to delete Trump from the ballot in November and are trying to overturn the results of the 2016. I can’t decide if these arguments are more absurd or pathetic. I probably have to go with pathetic because they are being made by lawyers and, being a lawyer, they have once again embarrassed my profession.
With the logic(?) they employed today, I guess they agree it’s just fine if Trump actually did shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue. Because, after all, he’s the president and, as he has told us several times, he can do whatever he wants under Article II of the Constitution. These Trump lawyers are just too brilliant for me.
Adam Schiff did a pretty good imitation of Joseph Welch earlier this week, but it appears the GOP doesn’t know who Mr. Welch is. Good night and good luck, America.
The case of Al Franken comes to mind. Democrats do demonstrably police their own, even with an overabundance of haste and force.
He should have been censured. He would have then issued an apology for behavior inappropriate even for a touring professional comedian. He would have dropped a few rungs on the ladder, and then resumed working his way back up that political ladder over time. Instead, Democrats threw him off completely.
GOP political roles are full of philandering scoundrels, pots who regularly call the kettle black. Hypocrisy is one of their defining characteristics. For them, holding power to enable self enrichment is the one and only goal. Gingrich, Hyde, Hastert, all holier than thou. Evangelicals and the rest of the rank and file could not possibly care less.
For GOP, truths are inconvenient, inconsequential details. Obama would have gotten a full trial, with witnesses and evidence. Democrats would have seen to it.
Of course, there was never any need. Unlike now.
2
Brilliant! Thank you. Taking it closer to home that we can all understand,
Doesn't anyone remember that when it looked like a sure thing that Hillary Clinton would win but not take back either the House or Senate, many prominent Republican representatives were PROMISING to begin Impeachment inquiries the very day she was inaugurated?
I remember. Sen. Ron Johnson was quoted in the WaPo 5 days before the election: "Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee, told a Wisconsin newspaper Monday that Clinton could be impeached, citing federal laws against 'willful concealment and destruction.'"
In that same article: "the chairman of a House Judiciary subcommittee, told The Washington Post he is personally convinced Clinton should be impeached for influence peddling involving her family foundation. He favors further congressional investigation into that matter." That was Trent Franks.
The next day, in Vanity Fair (4 Nov 2016): “Assuming she wins, and the investigation goes forward, and it looks like an indictment is pending, at that point in time, under the Constitution, the House of Representatives would engage in an impeachment trial," Texas Rep. Michael McCaul said on Fox News.
So when the Trump team says Dems are trying to overturn an election, let's remember Republicans were planning to do EXACTLY that even BEFORE the election!
4
Another exercise would be to forget how it is and ask, is this acceptable actions for future Presidents. By condoning this behavior do we set a precident for all future Presidents. Would you accept this behavior from President Sanders? President Biden? President Haley? President Ocasio-Cortez?
4
@J Stuart typo in comment. Should read: "...forget who it is and ask,..."
@J Stuart
typo in comment. Should read: "...forget who it is and ask,..."
Trump has lied to the American people more than 16,000 times according to a Washington Post count.
If Obama had done that, I would have supported his impeachment and removal for that alone.
2
When the Clinton affair blew up I was angry with him for sacrificing all the good he could have done as a Democrat for sex. I thought the Ken Starr investigation was over the top, but mostly felt betrayed by Clinton. It would not have mattered to me one way or the other whether he was impeached because the damage was already done. Likely, Clinton's affair and impeachment undermined Al Gore's chances in 2000, so Clinton's foolishness caused long-lasting damage.
What surprises me is that there doesn't appear to be any Republicans willing to say that Trump did anything wrong, or express anger that he did something wrong, against all his advisors' warnings, evidently, and is now putting the country through all this (not to mention trade wars, irresponsible military decisions, thug behavior, increasing the national debt, pumping up hate).
Unlike Republicans, and although I am a staunch life-long liberal, I am capable of telling right from wrong.
2
You're playing a very dangerous game of false equivalency. You keep trying to convince yourself (and us) that everything is situational because you're desperate to believe that everything is still normal, when it isn't.
I'd be very sad to learn that someone like Obama, who I believed upheld the rule of law, would do something so illegal and damaging to the Republic as bribing and extorting Ukraine with money he illegally hijacked after Congress gave it to Ukraine for its defense, all to announce a fake investigation based on a debunked conspiracy theory about a political opponent, all to rig an upcoming election in his favor. However, I'd also be livid and want him removed immediately as the whole point of choosing Obama was for him to protect our Constitutional Republic, not destroy it.
You think you can use this exercise to understand what drives Republicans instead of accepting that Republicans act as they do because the GOP is a true right-wing Authoritarian Party backing a true right-wing Authoritarian Despot.
If you still doubt how fundamentally different Democrats and Republicans are, consider how facts and truth mean nothing to Republicans. Like Trump, Republicans lie, ignore facts, and destroy truth, (and destroy the country), to win. Then look at the Democratic Primary. The problem with Democrats isn't that they require little or no morality from a Democrat, it's that they demand such absolute moral rectitude that no human being can possibly meet the criteria.
3
Ukraine is only one of what has already shown itself to be the character and morality of the individual that was elected to the presidency. The disgusting situation we find ourselves buried in is the result of people knowing what Trump was and then voting for him anyway. What does that say about our country?
1
Interesting exercise. On that basis, Bill Clinton should have been impeached and removed from office, just like any CEO who is now caught having an inappropriate affair with an employee. Trump really does behave more like a mobster boss. And they don't tend to get impeached.
It is hard to do the thought experiment about Obama not only because of who Obama was/is. It is hard because getting into a completely different scenario and knowing for sure how we would think/react is very difficult, if not impossible, for most of us.
That said, I do know though I was a Bill Clinton supporter who liked him and voted for him twice, I did during the impeachment time think that he should resign (and have a letter of mine published in the NYT in Dec 1998 to back that up).
Barack Obama and Donald Trump are two different presidents. So the comparison ends there. This editorial is pointless in that it changes nothing.
What if it were obama ? We already know the answer from their racist birther campaign and russia collusion by trump and the gop that completely subverted the last election, and their ukraine campaign that is subverting the next election. his lawyers, ken starr included are just twisting the constitution and law. trump will never be an obama.he has achieved nothing in 3 years, and made corporations and the ultrawealthy richer than ever while the middle class is doing worse than it was before trump.
This thought experiment is interesting, but.... It's like comparing apples and an orange.
Mr. Kristof, Barack Obama has been on “trial” by the Republicans since the day he became President. They were and are relentless. More than likely they will try to decimate Mr. Schiff too. They despised Mr. Obama....hence Trump! They are tremendously proud of what Trump has done to gut the CDC, the IRA, the Interior Dept., the FBI and I won’t even mention the State Dept. or the DOJ. Face it! The most anti Obama hater won the nomination. And all traces of Obama are just about gone. How many of Trump’s cabinet and campaign have been found to be corrupt? I’ve lost count. But that doesn’t bother them. Perfect president for the Obama haters.
Obama would not have broken the law. Obama would not withhold his tax returns, because he has nothing to hide. Obama would not violate the Emoluments Clause. Obama would not have lied over 15,000 times by this point in his presidency. Obama would not engage in nepotism. Obama would not call the free press the "enemy of the people." Obama would not have had undocumented one-on-one meetings with Putin. Obama would not have given the Middle East to Russia. Obama would not have abandoned the Kurds. Obama would not bring us to the brink of war with Iran through an extrajudicial assassination and by withdrawing from the Iran deal. Obama would have kept us in the Paris Accord, working with the rest of the world to combat climate change. Obama would not start a "trade war" with China that hurts American businesses. Obama would not convince our staunch allies that we are completely undependable. Obama would not have agreed to a $1.5 trillion tax cut for the wealthy knowing there was no way to pay for it. Obama would not be trying to repeal Obamacare and replace it with absolutely nothing. Obama would be working tirelessly to promote his country and all of its citizens. You know, come to think about it ... I really miss Obama. How about you?
1
If Obama were on trial these same Republicans who absolve trump of treasonously betraying our national interest would literally call for Obama’s head. The hypocrisy is shocking and they all need to go.
We need to show the door to Collins, Gardner, and many others.
1
The Fake President’s anti-democratic, authoritarian tendencies are amply revealed by the fact that he and his RNC henchmen, and women, squashed holding state primaries for the alternative candidates to Trump. No, these declared and qualified candidates who offered party voters a choice to the incumbent were systematically eliminated from electoral consideration. Putin’s practices in Russia, where opposition candidates are not tolerated, arise from the same mindset as that of #45. “All roads lead to Putin.”
Interesting question you have proposed: "What if it were Obama who had been caught in this Ukraine scandal?" But let's not forget that our current president was not caught in this scandal, he perpetrated this scandal.
If Obama would have done what Trump has done, I would have expected him to resign.
These false equivalencies are always ridiculous because Republicans tend to be lawless and believe in conspiracy theories. For example, Hillary and Benghazi. How many hearings did we have on that? To this day, I have no idea what Hillary did there. You would think from what Republicans said she was with the terrorists killing Americans.
OTOH, did Democrats go crazy on president Reagan or Sec of State Schultz of Def Sec Weinberger when 200 marines and Americans were killed in Beirut in 1983? Of course not. Because they did not cause those killings. Terrorists did. But in Benghazi, the Republicans went crazy on Hillary for no good reason other than pure political warfare.
So I can't accept any of these "what if" premises because Democrats generally don't behave as badly as Republicans and, most importantly, Democrats generally don't make up fake crimes to smear Republicans.
Trump got away with the 10 impeachable offenses found in Mueller's conclusion. He could have been impeached for what he did based on that investigation. Yet, instead of recognizing what a close call that situation was, Trump actually viewed it as vindication and felt he now had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. THAT is why he felt he could coerce Ukraine to interfere in our elections. Democrats would not do anything remotely close to this and, if they did, Republicans would've lost their minds. They already did over the benghazi nothing burger. McCain is sorely missed.
Everyone is accountable for their behavior and obviously with Republicans at the helm, this president is not. Maybe we would see the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot. But I have a hard time imagining that Democrats would not hold a Democratic president accountable. When you look at the misbehavior, corruption, stupidities that we observe every single day, it's not just this president, it's a whole array of Republicans without spine nor morals, sitting on the fence, saying one thing one day, something the next. If there is one qualifier for these Republicans and their shenanigans it's that they are mean spirited. Every week we read about squashing political opponents, voting rights, equal rights, voting rights, minority and immigration rights...across the spectrum. On the other hand they allow white nationalism and gun toting ignorant voters put their puppet president on a pedestal. I can't imagine President Obama doing a fraction of what his successor has been doing. He has too much empathy, heart and brains for that. The other one certainly does not.
Observing the comments of Mega supporters recently , and the hatred spewed by the birther storey support by the present potus, there would have been a cry to reinstate lynching as punishment for an act of bribery so blatant as this is.
Hypocrisy is refined to a fine art with citizens united dark money showing the weakness of moral aptitude in the present form of pirate capitalism.
No one would be made a high school vice pricipal if he had multiple allegations of sexual assault against him when he applied for the job. The only two jobs that someone in the situation can count on are Supreme Court Justice and President of the United States.
Here's another thought experiment, this time for the Republicans. Imagine that you were a part of the German government in 1935...
At least the good thing, in this case, is that there cannot be any blackmail on Trump since everyone knows that he committed a crime but no republican in the country cares, even with proofs. Of course, they wanted to impeach Obama just for breathing, and Clinton for sexual misconduct, so there you have the difference between impeachable offenses for Democrats and republicans. I fail to understand how it is that republicans can ever claim to be moral at all.
If Obama had been caught in a scandal like this, the Republican Party wouldn’t just be calling for him to be locked up, they’d be demanding his execution for high treason.
And given the whole Russian ‘containment’ aspect, the evidence would likely have put too much pressure on Democratic elected officials for them to ignore the gravity of the charges.
Obama, like all humans, was and is not perfect. But it speaks volumes that despite all the grandstanding by Pompeo and his ilk over Benghazi, that Obama never was impeached (even when the GOP was in charge of the legislative branch). They knew that it was a nothing burger the entire time. But they were already campaigning against Hillary.
At any rate, it is funny, but also curious and at times frightening, to watch the likes of McConnell and Graham contort themselves into justifying impeachment and removal of Clinton over perjury when lying about adultery, versus this dumpster fire of presidential misconduct.
Even in their best light, the actions of Trump cannot be justified as lawful and in the best interests of all Americans.
This kind of thought experiment comes perilously close to the "both-siderism" that is the bane of honest journalism. Trump's Ukraine scandal did not just emerge from his administration unconnected to the rest of his behavior and conduct in that post of high responsibility. An Obama who would be willing to cavort with lowlifes such as Rudy Giuliani and the criminals in the orbit of Ukraine's ousted prosecutor, who had demoralized the State Department and obstructed every effort to hold him to the Constitution he swore to uphold, who flat-out refused to cooperate or allow any of his subordinates to cooperate with the Congress investigating him, who in a thousand other ways had demonstrated contempt for the the office of the Presidency and for the American people it represents would not be Barack Obama at all; he would be Trump. And no, I wouldn't "switch sides" and support him. This isn't about policies; it's about the fundamental constitutional consensus that makes any policies possible. That should be clear by now!
1
Obama would be convicted for sure. He refused to provide lethal aid to Ukraine.
In contrast, Trump has delivered rockets, sniper rifles and hundreds of antitank Javelin missiles to Ukraine that they have been begging for.
What if? What if Nelson Mandela were on trial?
Character assassination...if not literal assassination.
This - Trump thing - is not Kafka...
If it were Obama on trial he'd have been convicted, imprisoned, and not given half the chances that Trump has been given and doesn't deserve.
1
A lot of this feels off the rails frankly, but the best analogy for this mess is to think of it as more of a Lifetime Achievement Award for Trump, as opposed to recognition for his work in "Tje Ukraine Phone Call' -- noteworthy, but not Oscar-caliber on its own.. ...
If anything, this article shows the devotion to fantasy of the Trump supporters that have commented.
I loved Obama and loathe Trump, but can confidently say that if it were Obama on trial, I’d definitely want to hear from witnesses and have all the facts.
1
All of this “blame” did work in 2016, but it didn’t work in 2018. There is a limit to how often you can run the same con.
Keep in mind it is highly likely that trump has and is running the same playbook in China and elsewhere as we speak.
How is it that as we fawn over all these courageous diplomats who came forward that we forget that they actually did nothing. They showed no real courage relative to the whistleblower. Now there is real courage, that’s a real hero. Thought experiment: The whistleblower didn’t whistleblow, what happened?
Why was Mueller such a horrid witness, reluctant to speak up? Why was his whole team, so pathetic in not demanding to testify? Why was Congress so weak in not picking up on all the threads the report left hanging out there?
Personally, I am disgusted by every one of them, including the whistleblower who at this point should come forward as he/Sho has been proven right.
In the land of the cowards, the bully runs the show.
If Obama were on trial, it would be the same circus just roles reversed. Neither party is for law or justice, just their own power.
This is a non-starter. Why would Obama be on trial? Trump is a criminal, and should be convicted of—at the very least but the list goes on—these simple impeachment articles. It's is not my opinion, it's an objective observation. I'm horrified that it doesn't matter.
Obama wasn't so clean. The true Benghazi scandal was that an American ambassador and the CIA were conspiring to ship weapons to Syrian "Freedom Fighters". That could be both American and international crimes. Also the assistance to topple the government of Libya. Also, his failure to enforce immigration laws against people within the country especially the "Dreamers," I could find lots of things to impeach Obama for. Anyone think Obama didn't believe his weak enforcement of immigration laws wouldn't help him with Hispanic voters?
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There were plenty of scandals to go around during Obama's tenure that liberal pundits at the New York Times chose to either ignore or downplay: His ramping up of an entirely unconstitutional drone program, his failure to punish any of the major banks involved in the financial meltdown, the Edward Snowden revelations regarding mass surveillance, his passionate pursuit of whistleblowers.
Were these impeachable offenses? Perhaps not, although the drone program almost certainly violates international law. His tan suit may be an amusing moment to reflect on but to suggest his Presidency was scandal-free is to whitewash the not-so-distant past.
1
The Republicans know they are hypocritical (verifiable from the historical record on impeachment) but don't care. It is really sad America spawned such unethical politicians.
One of the tragedies of life under our corrupt president has been the head-spinning transformation of conservatives from scolds who claimed character was destiny, to people that refuse to hold Mr. Trump accountable for anything...ANYTHING. This despicable person is allowed to commit all sorts of legal and moral transgressions with barely a word of criticism — in fact, their approach is to criticize the critics as being disloyal. They have truly formed a reprehensible cult.
I honestly don’t know how I will react the first time a conservative critic scolds our next Democratic president for...well, anything, really, but I know I won’t be pleasant in response.
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Anyone that has the slightest belief that Trump and the Republican Enablers have a shred of integrity is delusional.
There have been historically areas of legitimate disagreement between the political parties. But that does not make black white.
Asking “what if it were Obama” is like asking “what if the Pope committed a triple homicide?”
Sure, we can play the game. But in no reality is it possible to imagine he would have come close to committing such an egregious offense.
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Any president who breaks the law and endanger our national security has got to go. Period.
1
What if it was Don Jr who got appointed at Burishma board by a VP Trump to project his heft (VP in charge of Ukraine is my dad) for a hefty salary. The media would talk non stop about it and there would be investigations galore.
President Barack Hussein Obama, our 44th President, would not have been Impeached or on trial for his job as he was and is a man of consummate character, intelligence, kindness and humanity. The Republicans, whose 2008 and 2012 platforms were to make Obama a one-term president. The G.O.P. received their just desserts in 2016, a nefarious, unintelligent, unlettered and unfit president, Donald John Trump.
Mr. Trump, American's first Reality TV star/con man president is being defended during his Senate Impeachment Trial by the very GOP Senators and loyalists who would have removed Obama from our presidency for wearing a tan suit in the Oval Office. We fear Trump's acquittal by the G.O.P. Senators, and the possibility that he will run for President again this year, further smashing our democracy. May the Lord save us, because the Devil won't.
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“imagine if it had worked....”?
It DiD work! Trump won with the help of Russian intervention, through Facebook and their misinformation campaign on his behalf. And he’s not happy relying on just that next election( which Putin continues to provide), he’s actively seeking help from China and Ukraine.
1
cant say i admired obama. hes a centrist.
republican senators seem like rabid animals as they spew conspiracy theories and echo propaganda. i cannot comprehend how they can be so willing to blindly buy into this insanity. weirdly, I find myself wondering what john mccain would have thought of all this.
Trump came from the private sector. Business. Most, if not all of them failed. The casinos of Atlantic City. Trump Airways. The Football League. Etc... Etc... Etc...
He had the chutzpah to believe he could actually come from outside the political world and become President of The United States of America. He did it. But... He has no sense of history. No sense of curiosity. No class. No dignity. No integrity. He's a loud mouth. He's ignorant of political diplomacy. But... He makes for entertaining T.V. Les Moonves has said the greatest thing to happen to CBS was Donald Trump. That says it all. To compare him to any politician, let alone one with integrity is an effort in futility. He's not presidential. He has a republican party that enable him as long as they retain a base of support. He has the media, liberal and conservative, in the palm of his hand because he makes them a lot of money. The media created this Frankenstein monster, and now the world is stuck with him. There will fortunately be an end to this show. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but until then? Stay tuned. You never know what pearls of wisdom will come out of his mouth tomorrow.
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Dear Nicholas, your question about an hypothetic Obama trial is ludicrous, we know exactly what G.O.P. is able and ready to do. And this is the entire question observers from abroad put themselves about sanity in U.S.
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I remember my shock at what Nixon had done. I was 15 when he resigned rather face impeachment. It was a different time. But there was a Republican president in the White House. We were still involved in Vietnam. We'd had the gas shortage. People were reluctant to believe that a president would engage in criminal activity or countenance it if he knew about it. Nixon's resignation probably changed the history of America.
Never again would the generations who were old enough to be aware of what was happening trust the government to do the right thing. Many of us didn't want anything to do with politics. We were disgusted with all of them. I remember feeling betrayed. Now I'm older and watching the GOP defend Trump's actions horrifies me. It horrifies me to see and hear people marching and chanting "Jews will not replace us". What horrifies even more is that it's accepted by our president.
Obama's presidency was boring. He tried to his job. Trump's presidency has been one scandal after another. I worry that if he is not removed from office future presidents will take his acquittal as license to do whatever they please. The difference between Obama and Trump is immense. Obama was far from perfect but he had a conscience. Hilary Clinton, for all her self serving statements, had a conscience about Benghazi.
1/25/2020 10:48pm first submit
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Gaming the election process using foreign surrogates destroys the integrity of the election system. It's a brilliant hack, by the way, one reminiscent of Trump's so-called mentor Roy Cohn.
Trump understood that Biden had the best chance at beating him. a) pulling back some of Obama switchers
b) pulling in the black vote, as the recognized helpmate to Obama
A canny vp pick that would mollify the left (say, a woman who is black but not too radical, ie. Kamala Harris), and Biden would have had the complete package.
But with a single public announcement by the Ukraine (Trump couldn't care less about an actual investigation) he'd take out his most dangerous opponent, and let the Dems shred one another for months into defeat.
Without the whistle blower, he'd have completely gotten away with it (those meddling kids!).
But, as it seems the Republican Senators are wiling to say that 2+2=5, he can blow off his impeachment as nothing more than sour grapes AND still leaves Biden wounded.
Trump, it is obvious, cannot feel shame, but he does have a genius for seeing into motivators of many: proximity to power, greed and fear. Like the self-promoting genius he is, he found a way to fuse a well-groomed base of resentment to his own persona. His Impeachment is now no more than the Pharisees attempting to crucify their Savior.
But unlike that model of kindness, Trump hits back harder.
What a great, great piece of entertainment. I just wish that we weren't all cast members.
1
Sorry. I don't have nearly the imagination to construe Obama acting like Trump.
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Biden isn't really Trumps main opponent anyway. The DNC will make Warren the candidate no matter what. We desperately want to see a woman as president, even if it means a little bit of manipulation of the process. After all, the ends will justify the means. We got to have a woman President for us to fully achieve our moral goals. It worked for us with DNC and CNN coordinating debate questions with Clinton campaign. Now it is working with CNN and Warren campaign stating full fact (undisputed) that Bernie is a liar and sexist. I love being a liberal with the Press helping us out.
2
Nope! I wanted Clinton to resign. After the GOP hounded him and his wife constantly, I thought giving them something to impeach him for was hubris gone reckless and showed he needed to go. It would have let Gore run as an incumbent and Bush would have lost by 1 million votes not just by 1/2 million,
Sorry, Nicholas. The GOP just cares about power, nothing else. Democrats have more diversity of views and if winning and power are all that matters, the Dems fall short of mirroring the Repugnant Republicans.
Try again, sir.
2
Been there already, Nick, and purchased the Move-on bumper sticker. Where were you? We had a good president impeached for purely partisan reasons (“because we could”); and guess what? He had not abused his power to rig the next election; harm national and international security; or completely obstruct Congress. He dallied with an intern and told one lie— not thousands. So yes, Impeach this disgrace and remove him. Next question?
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An easier hypothetical would have been Joe Biden. While he didn’t do anything illegal, his son’s soft corruption on Ukraine gas company shows how the children of power figures are given advantages no one else has. The same could be said for Joe Biden helping to quash a Hunter’s drug charge in 1988 when he was in the Senate, arguing the problem with George H.W. Bush was he was too soft on crime. Or we could look at his relationship to credit card companies or the Biden families odd venture running Paradigm Global Advisors—as reported on by Politico.
I don’t have a hard time imagining Obama being impeached. I don’t have a hard time imagining Trump being impeached. Both engage in illegal war that kill hundreds of thousands and illegal domestic surveillance. If we upheld the law virtually all our recent presidents would be impeached because they all egregiously violate the law. But neither democrats nor republicans care about this illegality.
Which is why Pelosi only decided to impeach Trump because he went after her team, the democrats, a kind of turf warfare. Notice Pelosi didn’t care when Bush lied the US into war manipulated intelligence and tortured people around the world. In fact, Pelosi supports those things too—she would phrase it so it sounded better. The political class on both sides are criminals immune from the law. The only care about law and order if the other side attacks someone on their team. It’s laughable to think they care about the constitution.
1
This past weeks event have made me look back to quotes from The Kingdom of Heaven. The King Baldwin IV counsel Balian who has just arrived in Jerusalem from France.
"You see, none of us chose our end really. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice. Remember that."
2
There is no way extorting a foreign country to meddle in a domestic election is anything less than an impeachable offense. It is as morally and legally wrong as shooting someone on Fifth Avenue. It violates everything this country is supposed to stand for. It is an affront to the Constitution. Anyone who argues there is nothing wrong this behavior is morally bankrupt. Trump may well get acquitted in the Senate. He won’t be the first thug to escape justice. Forget the Senate. Decent people of all persuasions must make it known that this behavior will not be tolerated. Every Republican must be voted out of office. That is the only way we will be able to right this ship of state.
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Removal was never possible politically and was never the goal. Nancy Pelosi is still a mile ahead of the pack.
The facts that have emerged, Trumps clear commission of multiple felonies (bribery, conspiracy, obstruction), and the lengths the current gop have gone to cover it up — this is a shoutout to moderate republicans and moderate dems and swing voters. Yes, these groups all still exist and yes, they are key.
Trumpists and evangelicals are looney toons and dont dwell in the world facts or reality. But this was never about them. This was a get out the vote move by Pelosi.
Lest we forget that the gop suffered its worst congressional defeat in history in 2018 by riding trump as their champion. Hes unpopular. And becoming more so.
I like the look of 2020, as long and Sanders isnt the nominee (crazy, old, socialist, rich, white guy ... no thanks).
1
Speaking of Obama, where is his voice? Even when Trump is dismantling Obamacare, not a peep out of him.
Why?
The GOP has zero credibility and zero ethics. They are a lost cause. Vote blue across the board.
1
Maybe we should have impeached Obama. He failed to charge or prosecute one banker for decimating our, and the world's, economy. We found out later from leaked WikiLeak emails that all but one of his entire cabinet was picked by Citigroup. He ran as a peace candidate, was given the Nobel Peace Prize and then went on to turn Libya into a failed state that resulted in thousands of innocent civilians killed. He then went on and initiated a secret, covert CIA program, code-named Timber Sycamore , that funneled weapons and money to al Qaeda affiliates in Syria that caused unparalleled human suffering, with nearly a million dead and millions more displaced. He was then caught lying about violating the Fourth amendment and when it was exposed by a whistle blower that his NSA was spying on us, he tried to have him jailed. He failed to hold any CIA torturers accountable or when they destroyed evidence of torture. He buried the full Senate report on torture for ten years, hiding it from the public. He used the Espionage Act more than all other presidents combined to pursue and jail whistle blowers and those in the press. He ran on ending the wars but lied and actually expanded them. I think there is ample evidence that this guy should have been impeached. He lied to the American people and violated the constitution. He was no saint, just your typical sell-out and a huge disappointment.
1
Rather than imagine how I would have felt if Obama, who I supported, had done what Trump did, I prefer to ask myself how I would have felt about Trump if his policies were more aligned with my own. And I have to admit I would not be voting to impeach.
But that is only because such an unqualified, ignorant and reprehensible excuse for a human being would never have been elected in the first place, irrespective of how that person's policy positions aligned with my own.
1
"The foreign country could then blackmail our president by threatening to expose the corruption, gaining leverage over our foreign policy. "
For those of us who think illegal Russian money laundering through Trump properties seems likely, this appears to be exactly what has happened,
1
If Obama had done such an egregious thing, not only would I want him impeached, I’d hope he’d have the decency to resign.
1
Barack Obama would not have committed the violations that Trump has because he knew as a black man in the White House, he had to be clean as crystal. I believe Republicans knew that Obama wouldn’t do anything that would cause him to be impeached for that same reason. However, that still didn’t stop them from soiling Obama with Benghazi and Fast and Furious.
Trump has been impeached for all the right reasons, but he will survive the trial. Trump does anything he wants and gets away with it. Why has he gotten away with what he’s done and continues to do? I think everyone knows the answer to that question.
Everybody who still cares about our dying democracy and the health of the planet has been playing this thought game since Trump Day 1 when his first lies as president started rolling out, Mr. Kristof.
The Republicans don't care. They are like the sadistic bully in gym class who picks on a meek and weaker student who's not very good at sports until the noble bigger jock finally shows up and shoves the bully into the lockers. These Republicans and Trump's Base do not care about what is right. They only care about destroying the opposition and the progress the progressives have made.
They do not reason. They do not love our country. They only love their new tin god and themselves and they would rather see this country burn then remove the criminal in the White House. It's that simple.
2
Sadly, we are all focusing and debating mostly on the character of a fool. Let's wake up and take a closer look at this buffoon.
The more he reveals about himself, the more he lies, says idiotic things, the more vindictive he is, the more destruction he causes the more confident he gets and the more followers he has.
Could it be that his supporters in high places are grateful for this fool because they get to use him to achieve their agendas?
Who is really behind the scenes pulling Trumps, Mitch's lindsey's strings. I am afraid this movie they play for us has a deeper meaning and ending that the one on the screen. The biggest beneficiaries of Trumps policies are Israel, Russia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. His domestic policies are aimed at destroying America while his foreign policy is praised by dictators and facilitated by many in the administration who are more patriotic towards Israel than the US.
We all fell in the trap believing that the deplorables have the power to bring down our democracy. Money, bribes and many Adelsons are the ones.
1
Republicans, in addition to their many other offenses against democracy, are demonstrating that the concept of no person being above the law in America is a farce.
1
Maybe some else suggested this: If Obama and Trump were walking down the same street and an alleged crime happened up the block, who do you think the police would question first?
Trump appears to actually, truly (if that word can even be used in connection to anything Trump-related) believe that he's perfect and has done nothing wrong. Or if he doesn't believe it, he'll still go to his grave making that claim.
He does perfect dishonesty and gets away with it because he's been doing it all his life and getting away with it. And it's a foregone that he'll get away with it this time and next time too. It's what he does.
Given Trump's history of wrongdoing before he entered politics and his lies, stonewalling, denials, accusations, and claims of perfection since taking office, how likely is it that this recent can-of-worms is his first serious (even impeachable) offense as President? I'm thinking not very.
And oh yeah...also seems to me we should actually have an even higher standard for a President than for a Vice Principal. But oh well....
If Obama had engaged in a tiny fraction of Trump's everyday behavior, republicans would be screaming about the "thug" in the White House. Their unflappable support for Trump reveals how craven, feckless and hypocritical they are.
If Obama had done what Trump attempted with Ukraine, I, a democrat who voted for him, would want him impeached and removed from office, but that's because a patriot puts country before party.
To answer your questions last to first --
I wouldn't allow Donald Trump in my house. I would warn everyone I knew away from him as a dangerously unstable sociopath displaying the classic duo traits of extreme narcissism coupled with extremely low empathy that warn of a cruel, often criminal personality. Vice principal? Ha! I wouldn't trust him to bag groceries.
Neal Katyal's thought experiment is one that peoples my nightmares. Donald Trump is either unaware of or doesn't care about the complexities that governing presents. He has branded all Democrats and Democrat-leaning voters enemies, even though they account for half the people in the country. He seems unaware that Independents and Democrats are also part of his constituency. It's too complex for him to fathom, I think.
When it comes to international politics, Trump is even worse. Witness him fawning on Vladimir Putin, as if Putin was our most favored ally, and our NATO allies the real enemies. He's clueless.
Finally, if Barack Obama did ANY of the things that Trump has done (emoluments clause, unsecured phone, leaked Israeli secrets to the Russians, abandoned allies to death, abandoned Americans to death) I'd be the first to be calling for his removal from office. Because this is not about party at all. It's about competence, empathy, and ability to govern.
And Donald Trump has none of those traits.
If any Democratic President had Trump’s character, demagoguery and engaged in bribery and extortion for personal gain, I would support immediate impeachment and conviction. To suggest otherwise is unfair to Democrats who I believe have some principles and moral courage and think that the Constitution and rule of law are much more important than political power. It is a shame that the Republican Senators lack moral courage, true Patriotism, and are just political opportunists who have little if any regard for the effects of their actions on the independence and integrity of their institutions and the respect the American people have for our democracy. They are destroying our Constitution and have given Congress an abysmal approval rating. They are as shameless as their President who is a true reflection of their cynicism and low moral character. They have violated and abused their oaths to be impartial. It is nauseating! I pray they are all voted out of the offices they don’t deserve to hold.
Nick
I challenge your statement that Obama was meticulous. Susan Rice and Obama got away w lying about the origins of Benghazi and their likely stand down order because the media complex allowed them to and the Republican Party was out of power. He was also not meticulous about the dishonesty of the Iran Nuclear deal and the palettes of cash that were delivered. Ben Rhodes relied on a compliant media complex. Obama benefitted from a deep state that applauded his appeasement philosophy. Trump has no such luxury. Empowered by this newspaper and others to no longer call balls and strikes, nameless people in government leak constantly. Your well intended exercise will not provide an situation of equivalency.
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Wrong question. Why isn't it Obama on trial?
We'll have to wait until January to start. I can wait.
The latest video/audio recording from April 2018 (courtesy of Lev Parnas) captures Trump saying about US Ambassador to Ukraine Masha Yovanovitch: "Take her out...do it."
It's possible that Trump simply didn't know more than a year into his presidency that he had the right to fire any US ambassador. So the charitable interpretation of Trump's words is that he's stupid and ignorant.
But what if Trump was well aware of his power but thought it would not be politically advantageous for him to publicly fire Yovanovitch? Now Trump's words take on a sinister meaning: "Get rid of her in such a way that it won't get traced back to me."
This could mean employing psychological and emotional attacks to get here to resign "of her accord." Or it could mean foul play--which may be why Yovanovitch had to high tail it out of Ukraine in the middle of the night.
In any case, Trump must explain himself.
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Mr. Kristof, you refer to a hypothetical president being impeached as "the other guy."
I'm not sure if you are aware, but just this week, New York Times Gender Editor Jessica Bennet wrote a piece on how using the male pronoun to refer to presidents biases voters against electing a female president "She's the Next President. Wait, Did You Read That Right?" She specifically referred to the practice of using the word "guy."
Please alter your language in the future so as not to reflect a cultural male supremacist bias.
Asking the question "What if it were a woman on trial for impeachement" raises a whole other set of questions not explored here.
The question is moot.
No President before this has ever stooped as low as Trump. No President has ever done the things that Trump has done. He has dug a staggeringly deep well of corruption and wallows in it.
He's a one-off.
Here’s a better Question: When the shoe is finally back on the other foot, and President Chelsea Clinton or President Hunter Biden conducts themselves just as they like, rigging elections, ignoring appropriations, appointing relatives to White House positions and obstructing all Congressional attempts at oversight... do you suppose the Republicans will say, “Fair enough, it’s your turn at the trough. We did all that, so it’s only right that you should, too”?Don’t make me spit coffee out my nose.
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Nik is ignoring the fact that Obama actually 'did' solicit Russia's help with his reelection. He was caught on a hot mic telling Medveyev to pass to Putin that if they backed off of their missile defense objections and gave him some space, he could be more flexible after his election. Quid pro quo.
Joe Biden 'did' boast about withholding $1 billion in military aide to Ukraine unless it fired a prosecutor who was looking into corruption at a company his son was a no-show board member earning $50,000 per month. Quid pro quo.
And you neglect that Hillary Clinton 'did' fund a British spy to reach out to Russian intel to get dirt on Trump to drop in October of the election. And that, despite being discredited by the FBI as unsubstantiated, it was also used to open an investigation on a presidential rival. Inviting Russian interference in our election.
We heard breathless accounts about how the Mueller investigation would provide the smoking gun, only to find it was a bust. But the Horowitz investigation has shown that the FBI/DOJ acted improperly and lied to the FISA court. Oops.
So, the fact that the GOP --- which controlled both House and Senate during this period --- did would impeach Obama or Biden shows how off the rails Congressional Democrats are.
There are absolutely NO circumstances under which President Obama would commit Treason, and that’s exactly what Trump has done. His grotesque display of unquenchable thirst for absolute power is destroying our Country, in ways that the Founders never quite anticipated. Of course, they were, mostly, decent Men, especially for their Era. They rightly feared a Monarch, and envisioned a Country Free from Royal Titles and consequent unearned power and influence.
The GOP displayed their unreasonable and offensive distain for Obama even before his inauguration. An Election doesn’t really count, unless Republicans Win. And Obama committed the ultimate Crime : Presidenting While Black. Unfair ! Insulting! UnAmerican !
Trumps “ election “ is the direct result of Obama’s Two Terms in Office. It’s the very last gasp of the Confederacy, the revenge of the old Racists and Women Haters, a desperate attempt to keep White Men on the top of Society’s Heap. Like a Vampire needing and craving blood, the GOP needs their Votes and subsequent Power to survive.
November: Drive a stake thru their cold, shriveled Hearts.
It’s the only way to be sure.
Obama made mistakes as president as all president have done. His drone war policy, where innocents were killed and extra judicial killing ok'd, has been taken and escalated by Trump. Obama rightfully rejected the Ukraine aid based on the fact that this was a blatant attack on Russian national interest that could have dire consequences for world peace. Trump rushed in ham fisted trying to get Zelensky to help him get Biden. Nothing has been said of Zelensky's honorable efforts to end the ethnic conflict which has been temporally halted hopefully with a peaceful settlement. That would be Nobel Peace Prize material.
If the GOP had the same kind of shot on Obama that they had with Hillary and Benghazi, they would have taken it. Perhaps if they had found anything in their 7 investigations, they would have expanded the "scandal" to Obama. But not even GOP investigators could find nothing on Hillary, which is why the GOP wants to lock up Dems, they can find nothing wrong during investigations. Drives them nuts that Dems are not like the GOP.
If ifs and buts
were candy and nuts
then Merry Christmas.
This what-if should be posed with a Republican House and Democratic Senate. We'd have Nunes instead of Schiff monopolizing the airwaves.
As for Obama avoiding scandal, it was the MSM doing that after the 'Fast and Furious' story leaked out.
We didn't have Republicans and the MSM after Obama's hide for bringing us to the "brink of war" with Pakistan after he ordered the killing of Osama bin Laden on Pakistani territory.
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Standards? Really? The only standards that remain are what the people will believe presented on Television. Money buys freedom.......and minds.
Terrific name thou.
Let's be real here. If President Obama and his administration had done one tenth of what has transpired with the current administration (at least a tenth of what we know about) he would have been removed. And you know why.
This is Trump not Obama. What if, what if...well, what if Trump was an honest, respectable person?
It isn't so this is a waste of time and a distraction.
Hit the REFRESH key and start thinking of Donald John Trump as a mobster, a racketeer. We know Trump's crimes go far beyond abuse of power and obstruction of justice. Trump was impeached for ALL of his crimes, not just those two. His impeachment is in the books, a done deal, a victory for justice and truth. The Senate Republicans, Trump's henchmen, will vote to acquit or they will end up at the bottom of the Potomac wearing cement shoes. But rest assured, we got him, he knows it, and his posse knows it. The SS Trump is sinking.
So Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, Mitt, Senators Lee and Alexander- do you understand how important it is to stand up for democracy and the rule of law? Will you be able to “ move on” from illegality and obstruction of justice? Are you comfortable with the president being above the law?
Are we also assuming that the nation already ignored Obama's attempts to pay porn stars to stay quiet about their extramarital affair, his firing of an FBI director leading an investigation into alleged campaign violations, his attempts to get his staff to produce false documents. Are we assuming the nation wouldn't have cared if Obama trusted dictators over his own intelligence community? Would Obama have gotten away with lying thousands of times about anything and everything, not even halfway through his first term or his indulgence in nepotism? Would Obama have gotten away with spending weekend after weekend at his private golf resort and would anyone have defended him by saying "it's not costing taxpayers any money?" Would Obama have gotten away with getting most of his policy ideas from CNN?!
No, no and no.
Here's a thought experiment for you - what if Republicans recognized their own double standards, false equivalencies and hypocrisy?
Ha!
Your argument is thoughtful, logical and ethical. It wouldn't last a second with a Trump supporter.
Excellent points Nicholas. To bad Mitch's brain prohibits ethical inquiry.
I would have felt the same about any President. The fact that Trump is working hard to legalize dumping raw sewage in the drinking water doesn’t effect how corrupt I see this trial.
Let's face it. Ethics and Republicans do not coexist.
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Another more relevant thought experiment for you Nicholas. What if Trump is re-elected? Would he, Pompeo, Barr and Trump's cabal of grifters, liars and con men have any restraint whatsoever in lawlessness, attacks on the free press and investigations of political opponents? Where could it lead? Would the Democratic Party survive? Would our country become a one Party (minority as to the popular vote) state?
How are those abuses of power? I’d really like to know. I’d say those are only abuses of power if you disagree with those policies.
Using taxpayer funded security aid to get an foreign country to do investigations on a political opponent is above and beyond anything Obama did. Public funds for personal gain — that’s what Trump did.
And let’s say that the Biden’s really did do something illegal or otherwise (which credible sources say is not true) than there are official, legal, and legitimate ways to conduct such an investigation. Start with not sending Guliani and Parnas as your reps.
And let’s say the Biden/Burisma thong was illegal or otherwise? That stuff went on 4 or 5 years ago. Why is Trump suddenly an anti-corruption crusader extraordinaire? Haven’t seen it anywhere else, just Burisma.
Even if they are guilty, the Biden’s are irrelevant to Trump’s act of bribery and extortion.
The evidence is clear. And no, Obama didn’t do anything even close.
Unless your into conspiracy theories and disagree with, heaven forbid, a climate treaty!!! Heaven forbid we should do something about the humanity’s emisión if enormous amounts of carbon into the atmosphere.
Oh that’s right, that world wide scientific consensus is a hoax. Fake news. Isn’t real. Ice caps aren’t melting at prodigious rates. Has nothing whatsoever to do with fossil fuel consumption or the grey smoke coming out of our automobile exhaust pipes.
Obama's Whitehouse never answered inquiries into the targeted murder by drone of an innocent, sixteen year old, United States citizen. What about the war of aggression with Libya? Most, if not all, presidents have done something impeachable and illegal.
There is no doubt in my mind that if President Obama had been the subject of the same charges as Trump, the speed at which he would have been impeached and removed from office would have been absolutely blinding. And had Hillary Clinton been elected, the Republicans would have tried everything on earth to see her meet the same fate.
Republicans, thy name is Hypocrites.
It's beyond obvious that if it were a Democratic president, they would have already been impeached because of the Comey firing, the Russia-obstruction, for the lying, for the dictator-codlings and myriad other Trumpist offenses. And I have zero doubt that Democrats would have easily been on board to impeach. The Democrats do not have the corrosive propaganda machine that is Fox news. The most striking thing about the Trump era is stunning Republican hypocrisy. It's why I will never, ever consider voting Republican, no matter the position, the person or the policies. The "brand" is dirt.
I voted for Obama twice, but, like Clinton, he's much richer than he was before. They're both multi-millionaires. This is our real problem: inequality, meaning wealth and poverty.
Trump and the Republicans cut taxes for the rich and their corporations as the first act of business. The country conservatives can talk about guns or abortion or immigration all they want to, but the real 'issue' for Republican leaders is money. It's amazing that some of the poorest states that take the most in federal help vote Republican (the party that doesn't like helping the poor). Go figure.
Money is the key. Follow the money. Wealth, income, property and power has been concentrating since Reagan cut taxes on the rich (remember 'trickle down'). Republicans are both helping destroy community and equality, as well as denying the climatic catastrophe that attacks different parts of this world every day. it's all about money: stocks, dividends, hedge funds, private equity funds, high-speed trading, cutting capital gains and corporate taxes, etc. We're such stupid citizens, so bad at democracy.
Democrats are too soft about talking immigration, guns & abortion. These issues are complex and not easily answered. Deal with it. Talk about it. Then, the common folks struggling might listen to other issues like health care, housing, taxation, environmental laws, etc.
We've got to grow up, be adults, actualize, speak clearly. We can. Trump is the worst 'man' I've ever seen: immoral, selfish, fake.
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WHAT IF OBAMA WERE ON TRIAL? The GOP racists and criminals acted as if they were trying Obama for the crime of Being Black While President. And they did that for every day of the 8 years during which time Obama served with distinction. Yes, he made mistakes. But he also acted like a humble, rational, dignified, intelligent, committed professional who worked hard to uphold his oath of office. Trump, by contrast, is at the other end of the spectrum. Incapable of empathy or remorse, his statements are distortions intended to trivialize the accurate observations about his constant violating of any code of ethics and/or legal codes! DO NOT BELIEVE TRUMP'S LIES!
I voted for Bill Clinton and wish he had been removed for office. His case would have served as a good example of why one should not abuse the office.
This did not and would not have happened in the Obama years. And please, stop comparing one of the greatest presidents of the United States with a fake tan, liar, incompetent, and immoral human being.
The problem I see here is the congress, who is failing to protect the constitution of the country. One way or the other, this will end. History and next generations will judge them based on their actions.
These "thought experiments" may be interesting but at the end of the day are a waste of time.
Impeachment is basically a political act - in most cases. So it is difficult to gain anything out of these "experiments" since the political stand of people necessarily get involved. I don't believe for a second that the "base" of Putin's Donny think it is fine to solicit foreign countries to interfere in our election. But they have bought a bill of goods from this con man so they are opposed to the impeachment.
As far as I am concerned Putin's Donny is a traitor - from the moment he said "Russia, are you listening" on Hilary's email. The rest of his lies and behavior, to me, shows he is a Putin mole.
Moral equivalence and hypocrisy are writ large across the U.S. political spectrum, as reflected both in its foreign policy (blind support of Israel and Saudi Arabia, endless wars) and in the nation's tribal domestic politics, social divisions and gargantuan Wealth Gap.
The above psychological profile explains the mess the nation is in today, having elected as 'leader of the free world' the most arrogant, hypocritical and immoral person on the planet.
Obama would never have done what Trump did. End of column.
Democrats - warts and all - still have principles in the final analysis.
Republicans have greed and power and whatever hypocrisy is necessary to retain power, even it means flushing the Constitution and the Presidency down a sewer of greed and power.
Trump is the Republican Party personified.
The average American is simply not as deplorable as Trump and the Republican Party, who have both adopted oligarchy, authoritarianism and hypocrisy as their family values.
America needs to clean up this radical Republican mess on November 3 2020.
3
Obama is on Trial. Trumps's whole purpose in life is to Wrong the Right and Right the Wrong.
1
Seems most NYT’s people on this comment section can’t admit the improvements in the economy FOR ALL Americans.
What a miserable view y’all have of the PEOPLE of this country!
It isn’t politicians that make this country a success, it’s the people that have a positive outlook based on who is in charge of more/less barriers to the individual success.
Enough with the false equivalence! Obama wouldn't have done the things Trump has done, not the many thousands of lies, not the "fake news" and "enemy of the people" attacks, not the cozying up to autocrats. None of it. Heck, Obama didn't even brag about having the biggest inaugural crowd ever, even though that was true. Trump and Obama are at the opposite ends of the integrity spectrum.
Did Obama have a sleazy "fixer" like Michael Cohen? Did he have a self-described "dirty trickster" like Roger Stone? Of course not. Would Democrats have given someone who had been indicted on multiple federal counts a hero's welcome, as Republicans did for Roger Stone? Democratic voters don't tolerate the kind of dishonesty and corruption that Republican voters seem comfortable with. There is a world of difference. Obama would have gone nowhere in Democratic politics if he had said and done things even close to what Trump has said and done. If we're supposed to pretend Obama would do what Trump has done, you might as well imagine flying unicorns.
“Obama was meticulous in avoiding scandal and ethical conflicts.”
You’ve got to be kidding.
I think flooding the security agencies with Russian collusion disinformation against Trump in the last days of the Obama administration might count as scandal.
Perhaps allowing his SOS to set up the embassy in Benghazi as a front for funneling confiscated Libyan arms caches to “freedom fighters” (aka ISIS) in Syria, perhaps that would qualify as scandal. (giving credence to Trump’s dig of labeling him as the Founder of ISIS)
And there’s so much more.
Obama was only meticulous in hiding scandal.
But yes, good thought experiment. By your construct, Obama should’ve been impeached at least once.
Good luck getting your followers to learn anything from said experiment. They’re too busy producing firebombs and planning riots for Trump’s acquittal.
@James, I hope for your sake that the recipe for the kookaid you've swallowed didn't include arsenic.
1
Maybe the Republican attitudes towards Trump, and how they would differ if the impeachment targeted Obama, are in addition to partisanship a manifestation of white male privilege. Trump grew up as a privileged, wealthy caucasian who has never faced serious legal consequences for his wrongdoings. Obama on the other hand grew up as the child of a mixed-race marriage who identified as African American. Certainly he would have absorbed the lesson that in American society blacks often fall under harsher legal scrutiny than whites. Hence his checking with the Judicial Department before accepting his Nobel Prize.
Or maybe Obama's just a really nice guy?
If Obama had done the same, I’d like you to do me a favor, he would have instantly lost my support.
I’m not sure how the republicans are going to live with themselves.
They will forever be known as traitors to the constitution.
1
“Shouldn’t we have higher standards?” Yes. The President should be the most accountable person in a position of power, not the least. The corruption here is disgusting.
Would I be open minded if Barack Obama was accused of what Trump is? Well, look at how the Republicans piled on Hilary Clinton with regard to her supposed abuse of an email server. We were told she should be locked up and that it was a terrible scandal, etc. It was all an attempt to smear her, much as Trump has been attempting to smear Joe Biden. Sorry Nick, I wish I could be as intellectually honest as you, but I'm not inclined to give any Republican the benefit of any doubt at this point, given what I've seen. If Obama was accused of doing what Trump did, I would almost certainly assume it was an attempt at smearing and discrediting President Obama. But note, President Obama is a man of great character. And he proved that every single day while he was in office. The worst can be easily be believed about President Trump because he has shown himself to be an angry, vengeful, stupid, dishonest, fraudulent person. In this case, there is a lot of evidence also that demonstrates that Trump did what he is accused of doing.
The double standard conservative Americans hold Trump vs how they treated Obama is the new definition of hypocrisy.
Trump represents traditionalism and racial hierarchy. Everyone knows this.
Conservative Americans know well and good what Trump is selling, so they put up with his thuggish behavior.
The idea of a free, fair and just multi-cultural/ethnic/religious/orientation society is what is really on trial. A Trump re-election will destroy that ideal and America will descend back to a 1930s Mississippi hierarchy.
Democrats were disappointed, but removed Al Franken.
This comparison doesn’t work. Trump is white and has the full weight of white privilege on his side, not to mention millions of supporters who willingly excuse his worst transgressions. No black man or woman could ever be elected with Trump’s pedigree. Can we now stop sullying President Obama with Trump’s dirt?
Check out Saturday Night Live's series, "Them Trumps." That'll answer all your hypothetical questions comparing Trump to Obama.
Trump has done what he could to please his base, that includes plutocrats in and out of the country. Outside these, his insults fly in all directions.
Obama stayed in touch with all who would respond. Not a lot of insults.
Trump makes the wrong friends and studies the art of hurting others.
They will each be remembered for their character.
Had this been Obama? Silly question. He would not have created so many messes. Where he had trouble, he arrived with real friends.
No need for the thought experiment. Dems pushed John Conyers and Al Franken to resign. Trump and the rest of the GOP stood behind Roy Moore on the much more serious witness accounts of child molestation and stalking.
Obama is on trial. What competent POTUS would not be informed of infiltration of the opposing party's functionaries - a la Carter Page.
All roads lead to Obama.
Obama would never be on trial under the circumstances for which Trump happens to be. Obama has a brain that is healthy, in touch with reality, and conditioned by education and experience to reason soundly. Trump is a squirrelly individual who manipulates people to do for him what strains his mental resources too much for him to do for himself, and defies rules because he never learned about boundaries.
If Obama had done what Trump has done, I would first be astonished - second furious (how could he DO something like that and ruin everything?!) - and third heartbroken, knowing he had destroyed our faith in him and would have to resign.
Clinton's impeachment was different, in my opinion. His impeachable offense was lying under oath -- not to be taken lightly, and definitely worthy of censure. But he lied to save himself, and his family, embarrassment - not to cover up an action that endangered our democracy or our security. The sexual activity he lied about was consensual. As despicable as his actions were, it should have remained a private matter. That Ken Starr and the Republicans brought it to light is shoddy politics.
Good thoughts but impossible. Obama would never do any of these things.
As to the school principal example-for any doubter out there, that example works very well.
Imagine if doctors behaved like Trump. -Well, I know your child needs this asthma medicine to help him breathe. I could give it to you but you would have to do me a favor first.- absurd
You forgot the most obvious parallel between Pres. Obama’s dealing with a foreign leader and Trump’s conversation with the Ukrainian leader Zelensky. Trump’s Zelensky conversation was tapped by our CIA and intelligence agencies, as Trump well knew, unlike Obama’s pendant for private unrecorded exchanges with foreign leaders, including the Russians.
Your reporter J. David Goodman reported on March 26, 2012: “President Obama found his private moment of political candor caught by a live microphone on Monday as he told President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia that he would have ‘more flexibility’ to negotiate on the delicate issue of missile defense after the November election, which Mr. Obama apparently feels confident he will win.”
To how many other foreign leaders did Obama make such promises in private that we know nothing about, and will probably never know, unless it’s too late to do anything about them?
Sad to say it but yes the effigies and nooses would be seen and repeated. That can be said without too much reservation.
The rhetoric about him being loyal to foreign powers et all would be ad nausea.
The lather from the red states would be noticeable.
Nonetheless all that being said, in this case the red state people are showing their mettle for all to see, for thems who has the eyes for seeing them.
During, after, or before the civil war, which side were you on, if you had a chance to choose?
I imagine that if Obama were in the same situation, the sides would switch but the dynamic would be virtually identical, except that there would be a racial component at the core of the narrative. Republicans would be framed as trying to remove a black man from office for investigating corruption (it would probably be framed as “white corruption”) and the entire thing would turn into a big racial fiasco of good vs evil, black vs white; Obama a great crusader against centuries of oppression and corruption, the republicans trying to remove him from office for not acting like an Uncle Tom, etc. etc. You get the point. All in all, Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin. It’s a mere power struggle, and narratives are created, edited, and distributed at will based on self-interest.
I generally don't play 'what if' 'games'. However, the answers are obvious and that is most alarming. It shows the divided government, the divided, country, the influence of $$$s, the gains achieved by being a bully, the legal wisdom of appealing and delaying, the lack of adhering to the oath that members pf Congress take, the disgusting influence of a political party leader in our Congress, the lack of wisdom, integrity, and fortitude of many of our elected members of Congress...No longer will I say "God bless America", but each day i shall pray 'God forgive America'
President Obama would never have been on trial. He understood and respected the Constitution. During his 8 years he lead the country with grace and dignity. Of course he wasn't perfect, no one is. He never made fun of the handicapped, or disrespect Gold Star parents, or call people ridiculous names if they didn't agree with him. He never would call climate change a Chinese Hoax, or announce he was a stable genius and knew more than the generals, or claim windmills caused cancer.
I rest my case.
Sadly in America the only scandal re: President Obama was being born bi-racial which means Black and having the audaciousness to run and win the Presidency twice...and the more enlightened citizenry committed the sin of having the temerity to vote him based on intellect and character.
And Nicholas if Obama had committed the same wrongful act re: Ukraine, I and I assume many progressives would want him held accountable or impeached.
And that Sir, is the main difference between the parties: putting D's between the proverbial rock and hard place...try to hold onto morals, decency and decorum and keep losing or abandon all, throw the gloves off (bare fist to cuffs) and get down in the gutter or swamp wrestle on the mud and have more victories...
Sad indeed
1
The wrong articles were laid against Trump. No one cares much about what he said to a foreign leader, even if it was egregious. What people can readily relate to is cheating on your pregnant wife with porn stars, then lying about it and paying hush money so that the public don't find out. Of course, that impeachment should have taken place in 2017, so it's too late now. And in any case Trump will be exonerated by the Senate next week, so he'll feel emboldened. What's next?
Obama obstructed Congress by refusing to honor supoenas in the Fast and Furious scandal....Obama asked several nations including Australia and Italy for information on the
Trump campaign during the 2016 election..Obama held up congressionally approved aid to Ukraine until a prosecutor was removed....Obama refused to defend the "Defense of Marriage Act"... All of the above mentioned facts could have been grounds for impeachment. So it's not so far fetched.
Sorry, I just can't imagine Barack Obama being arrogant enough, small minded enough, and corrupt enough to do something like try to coerce a foreign government to announce they are opening up a criminal investigation against a political opponent by withholding military aid.
Yes, trite but at the same time what is that old trope again? "Are you gonna believe me or your own lying eyes" Also go have a new look at the wonderful Peter Sellers movie "Being There"
Obama impeached? Not possible. Saints can’t be impeached. It would be like saying he didn’t eliminated the deficit or get rid of all the co2 or establish world peace. Treating our “leaders” like demigods or demidevils is the problem. Elections are about a beauty/popularity/identity/PC politics contest now. As the social scientists have told us, we react and vote with our lizard brain stems not our higher functions. You either love or hate somebody and no amount of facts or evidence is going to change that.
If Obama had done 10% of what Trump's still up to, then I would have wanted him out as well.
Can you imagine if Obama had paid off a porn star to win the election, what a show the Republicans would have thrown... Nobody even remembers it with the continuous outrage that is Trump and his pathetic enablers (I'm no fan of the DNC either).
Come on, bring the level back up a few notches!
Word it this way - "What if Obama had lied about having an affair and paid hush money to cover it up?" "What if Obama told multiple lies daily, repeatedly called for locking up Republican congressmen and, after saying repeatedly he ddin't know Lev Parnas, a tape of a conversation with Parnas surfaced with him demanding the firing of Ukraine's ambassador? What would happen then?
1
"Imagine if the president’s rival lost the primary because news broke that he was under investigation."
Or, imagine if a president's rival lost the primary because Republicon dirty tricksters set him up and news broke that he was involved in an affair, with a photo of a woman on his lap near a boat named "Monkey Business".
Imagine where we might be if Gary Hart had become president in 1988?
Or, imagine where we might be if Nixon had not interfered in the North Vietnam peace talks before his first election, or if Reagan had not interfered in Iran over the hostages before his first election??
We can all do a lot of imagining since I've been voting, but can we DO anything about it?
Here’s one better:
Imagine if the Supreme Court had allowed Florida to finish counting the votes in the 2000 election.
2
You mean like, "What if Obama used the FBI & CIA, along with friendly media, to use false Russian progaganda contained in a phoney dossier to get illegal FISA warrants to spy on his heir apparent's political opponent in the 2016 election?"
Well, all that stuff already happened, but we can't impeach Obama because he's not the President.
Since I was in high school, 50 years ago, I believed in the Rule of Law. American Exceptionalism IS the Rule of Law. All people treated equally. So, apply the Law, no matter who.
Of course, that was when I was a kid. Today I know power has its advantages, but sometimes it does not. This time it does. Such is life. Evil wins sometimes.
1
At the close of this piece Mr. Kristof proposes an analogy that every American can understand. Dems would do well to repeat it every time they speak about the impeachment. We need one simple message that shows why the president's behavior was illegal. Repeated over and over again, it may persuade enough red-state voters to pressure their Senators into (at least) allowing witnesses and documents to be admitted.
1
I suspect the difference is whether you believe the perp is a moral person. Whether you could trust him and believe he is generally working for the public good.
Obama enjoys that trust. Trump does not, and he relishes it.
1
I strongly disagreed with Obama on most matters but if he had been impeached on shaky grounds (like Benghazi) with the type of partisan sideshow antics that have surrounded this one, I would wish for a speedy rejection in the Senate. I didn’t like Obama in office and I like Trump in office even less. In neither case would I (or do I) wish to see backed-into impeachment as a substitute for elections.
The column boils down to a lazy assumption that anyone who opposes Trump’s impeachment has illegitimate motives. It’s just as lazy as (and no more incisive than) saying all who favor his impeachment have shallow motives.
@RobtLaip No, because the evidence is overwhelming in favor of impeachment, if we use the standards we have used for 300 years.
Those who oppose trump's impeachment have only an emotional defense; they can't believe Dems are so mean. (Totally not the same as other impeachments, now the president cannot be checked.)
Those who favor his impeachment have facts, timelines, testimony and the law.
Other than that, yeah.
“Imagine if it had worked,” Katyal suggests. A foreign country could blackmail the president. The president might abuse presidential power in other ways in the belief that impunity was complete.
With this president, that's not hard to imagine, not far-fetched at all. It's entirely likely that he has gotten away with similar corruption elsewhere, and will be encouraged further in this by acquittal in the Senate - a Senate that refuses to hear witnesses or see evidence, to help a president who publicly brags about their success in keeping the evidence hidden.
And, of course, we still don't know that he isn't being blackmailed by Russia, but we do know that he acts very much as if he were.
I’ve had this discussion with a number of virulently anti-impeachment Republican colleagues, except that I’ve used Hillary Clinton so that the thought experiment involved someone they believe is at least as corrupt as Trump.
Specifically, I’ve posited “Tell me that if a President Hillary Clinton did exactly the same thing you wouldn’t be screaming for her impeachment. And while we’re at it her imprisonment. Tell me that Fox News wouldn’t change its name to the Impeachment Channel. And that you wouldn’t be out buying more assault weapons “just in case.” Oh and by the way, if you tell me that none of that would have happened, you’re lying to me, yourself or both.”
So far no one has disagreed. And it hasn’t changed their position in the slightest.
338
@Unbalanced... That's because presidential impeachment is a political act, not law enforcement. The Republicans impeached and tried Clinton because they wanted to undermine his reelection. The Democrats have impeached Trump in an attempt to prevent his reelection. Compared to what some previous presidents have done, Trump's Ukraine misstep is a very, very minor infraction.
The next president, whatever her party, is going to have to watch her back.
4
@2REP I respectfully disagree with you. Whether you think that the Impeachment is politically motivated or not, Trump's refusal to submit to Congressional oversight, dominated by the opposition or not, will kick out the foundation of the Republic. If (and I still hope against evidence that it will be otherwise) the Senate acquits Trump, the Presidency will assume the powers of a monarch and the America's long-lived experiment in representative democracy will truly be over.
And don't kid yourself, it will be irreversible.
Elections from hereon out will be suspect, with predictable social consequences that we'll all look back on thinking "They know not what they did."
34
@Unbalanced Where did you find virulently anti-impeachment Republicans in San francisco. I'm sure there must be a few but they're pretty scarce.
9
I did not love Bill Clinton because I was not in favor of some of his policies, yet I was critical of his impeachment which I saw as overkill due to political partisanship. I would have been okay with censure though because his conduct diminished the seriousness of his office.
I disagree with some commentators that Clinton abused his power of the presidency. His acts were very unlike what Trump has done. Clinton abused his power as an employer. His relationship with Lewinsky was workplace harassment. Big difference from using one's power as the POTUS against a weak international ally.
1
Your "what if" scenario about Obama makes about as much sense as a scenario when Lincoln, instead of the Emancipation Proclamation, instead decrees that slavery is the law of the land as a way to end the war.
2
Mr. Kristof. while I found your article insightful, and by the way entertaining, I can't help but wonder... you see I just read Mr Douthat's op ed and you don't include any sort of "six degrees of Kevin Bacon"... so... so... so what are we to do with your article? Do you mean for us to... to just.. read it? And... and appreciate the insight? I... well, well OK then. Well done!
Oh My.
If a few worm holes and alternate realities merged, you could definitely see the very same cast of republican characters holding simultaneous impeachment trials with exactly the same evidence and they would absolve "trump" and convict and remove President Barack H. Obama, with nary hair out of place.
1
Alas, we will never know, because the Democrats, and the media, gave Obama a pass on everything.
He claimed the right to kill American citizens without a trial.
He withheld documents related to Fast and Furious.
He unilaterally changed the legal status of 2 million illegal immigrants, shielding them from deportation despite the clear meaning of the law.
For any of those things he could have been impeached.
1
if Trump had succeeded in involving Ukraine in our elections....Ukraine would be in a position to control our politics....substitute the word Russia in that paragraph. it explains a lot
Even loving Obama policies, I would have been pro impeachment if he criminally abused his power as Trump did.
Plus, we had the backup of the amazing Joe Biden instead of a vapid toady.
He’s not so the hypothetical is meaningless..
1
Wait!! Obama's not on trial?! You would never know from just listening to Trump's henchmen referring to all they've done to stop what Obama's administration did for the past eight years.
2
Really? Never asked YOURSELF that question Mr. Kristof? What would the NyTimes be saying if it was Obama being Impeached 48 days start to finish in the House? Rush, Rush, Rush to get it done in time to impact the upcoming Election? Please do respond.
interesting thought experiment. if Obama had been impeached, Biden would have become President.
What would the Republicans do if Trump committed the ultimate sin--you know, wearing a tan suit to work.
Obama’s War of Choice: Supporting the Saudi-led Air War in Yemen
"WASHINGTON — Adel al-Jubeir, Saudi Arabia’s urbane, well-connected ambassador to Washington, arrived at the White House last March with the urgent hope of getting President Obama’s support for a new war in the Middle East"
"Mr. Obama soon gave his approval for the Pentagon to support the impending military campaign."
NY NYT 2016/03/14
1. President Obama involved in a War without Congressional Approval
"“As I read the conflict in Yemen, I have a hard time figuring out what the U.S. national security interests are,” Senator Christopher S. Murphy, Connecticut Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, said during a congressional hearing this year.
NYT 2016/03/14
President Obama did not act in the National Interest,
3. "That President Obama would so enthusiastically endorse arming such a brutal authoritarian government is unsurprising, since the United States is by far the leading arms dealer (with 47 percent of the world total) to what an annual State Department report classifies as the world’s “least democratically governed states”—
Obama’s War of Choice: Supporting the Saudi-led
Air War in Yemen
Council on Foreign Relation September 25, 2015
The motive was to placate the Arms Industry lobby
1
Indeed, the highest standard ought to be demanded from that individual with the most power, given that that person could inflict the most damage if allowed to roam free, especially if mentally deranged. What to say about a pathological liar, unhinged by the rule of law, that has never read the constitution, and could care less about his cruelty affecting millions of innocent people? Should he get away with 'murder', and allow him to roam free, impune, for more harm to come until the next election...already bought by his maneuvering the truth and assaulting the integrity of his opponents? And what about ther complicity of an entire political party, being taken to the slaughterhouse by their hypocritical noses? These pseudo-representatives would not be deserving of their citizen's trust, would they? At the end, what an awful precedent...if this democracy still deserves to be saved. Does it?!!
Every democrat now calling for witnesses in the Senate is on record having denounced this exact move in the past. And every NYT reader will be saying the exact opposite when the shoe is on the other foot.
2
There is a problem with over analyzing and trying to make sense of why Republicans are protecting Trump. Their motivation is driven by the reality that they can get away with it. Period. Trump is a charlatan. He has broken all the rules and doesn't care. Republicans know this but they are afraid of his wrath. Furthermore it is clear that our system is broken. Partisan politics has descended into tribalism. Shoot the other or be shot yourself. Primitive though it is, it works in today's culture.
1
If Obama had j-walked the GOP would have compared it Pearl Harbor. Sure, Bush and Cheney were directly responsible for the illegal massacre of ~200,000 innocent Iraqi's, but Bush never wore a tan suit. That's the level of modern Republican hypocrisy and self-serving duplicity these days.
2
Of course we would find it hard to conclude that a person we trusted betrayed that trust. But if the evidence was clear and overwhelming, as it is against Trump, I think most Democrats would come around. I know that there wouldn't be a wall of silence and complicity as the Republicans have built. Stop bending over backwards to understand and forgive. This is a time to righteously condemn both the criminal Trump and his cowardly enablers who make him possible.
2
Then how is it that the Senate did NOT remove Bill Clinton?
Your entire argument is based on the fallacious notion that those in power, particularly that dead stick of a former man McConnell, have any interest in truth or justice or anything American.
They do not.
The majority are attack dogs who have no idea what they're fighting for, they're just eager for a fight to the death.
Some few have massive financial interests at stake and, finding politics taxing, desire to create a system that will keep them in charge in perpetuity.
The very tippy top are criminals and traitors who will continue their course win or lose, loved or hated because its what they do.
Trump, anyone with a brain and an editor committed to accuracy (sorry NYTers) has known about for basically ever.
The big surprise, to some among the least observant, is our impotent Man in Black, Roberts.
Having claimed he is there only to enforce the Senate's rules, having issued the obligatory "Now kids, play nice" he snoozes on the bench as Senators send texts and search Google on their Dick Tracey Wrist Computers, wander aimlessly about the chamber, hold forth for whatever media escape their coral, and generally their ample noses at him. Coffee with a little sumpin' sumpin' is surely on the horizon.
Having spent all of what, half an hour formulating the most ridiculous impeachment rules imaginable I bet Mitch is beside himself with hysterical laughter to see his party continue to deny rules exist and act as if they own the place.
2
I sometimes wonder if we all have collective amnesia!
The Obama administrations DID put pressure on the Ukrainians to reopen an investigation in Paul Manafort and others who received fees from the Party of the Regions. They did release that he was under investigation just prior to the Republican convention. And after the election of Trump the Ukraine President Poroshenko and his administration sought to make amends after working to boost Clinton (https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446). From that article: "Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found."
Apparently a day can't pass with without Democrat self-flagellation. What would we do without Cass Sunstein to remind us of our shortcomings and sins? Shall we sing kumbaya with Mitch McConnell?
This [actual] liberal would have been happy to see Obama impeached over his refusal to subject Bush administration officials and America's investment and mortgage bankers to the criminal law, at the same time his administration was incarcerating thousands for marijuana possession.
The idea that one might love his other policies, thereby creating a real moral dilemma, is so far removed from the reality of America today that even as a thought experiment, it's without application. You need a level of satisfaction and contentment out of reach to most of us, such as employment by Harvard Law School. Or the NYT op-ed page.
1
This article is proof that Trump will be re-elected. Republicans are playing 3 dimensional propaganda chess. Democrats are playing tiddly winks.
1
That's a nearly impossible thought experiment for me to do. Trump's 16,000 plus documented lies, his history of financial fraud, his childish name calling, his racism, his undignified, unhinged twitter rants, his refusal to release his tax returns, his violations of the emoluments clause, his ignorance of history, international affairs or basically his ignorance of everything, his embrace of conspiracy theories, his incoherent babbling and his lack of character make him unfit to be President. He is being impeached over the Ukraine affair because it is cut and dried. He was caught red-handed. As stated in the article, I can't imagine Obama asking a foreign country to smear a political rival, if he had, his character might give him the benefit of the doubt with me. Trump's character is malignant and there is no doubt for me that he is corrupt.
1
We all know what would happen if it was Obama. Will we ever stop asking the same rhetorical question? Obama's actions if they were similar to Trumps would have warranted storming the castle. Racism runs deep in the DNA of country and the treatment of Obama is a prime example. From the Iran Deal,TPP and health reform if only Obama wasn't Obama.
It is highly improbable that Barack Obama would have engaged in conduct even remotely similar to Donald Trump’s behavior in courting Vladimir Putin’s help in the 2016 election or in conditioning military aid to Ukraine on President Zelensky’s collection of dirt on a likely political opponent in our 2020 election.
Barack Obama was a moral and careful president. His greatest weakness may have been being overly cautious.
Donald Trump is an ignorant and reckless president with no interest in playing by the rules. He is also a cruel and vindictive man who is totally different than Barack Obama.
Any comparison of Trump to Obama must acknowledge that Trump could get away with bad behavior which would never be tolerated in a man of color.
It is a mistake for the nation to dwell on personality, when the subject of impeachment is considered. To do so lends credence to the shaky Republican argument that Donald Trump was impeached only because Democrats do not like him.
There are objective standards of acceptable presidential behavior, and we should stick to those measuring sticks. Donald Trump's misconduct clearly broke important rules and hurt our country.
I voted for Obama twice, but if he had extorted foreign governments into interfering with our elections on his behalf, I would have said "Mr. Obama, you have to go." I would have felt very angry and betrayed by him. I would furthermore have said that he and anyone who facilitated him should go to jail. Then again, I'm an American first and whatever else second.
If Trump was a vice principal - I pity the poor kids!
As for Barack Obama, why try to compare him to Donald Trump? There is no comparison, none. Never was never is, never will be. They are in two different worlds - and Barack Obama is in the good world.
2
If Obama were on trial the episode would be judged on race. Here, the case is an hysterical episode of political witchhunting. The US House is an embarrassing disgrace.
1
It doesn't matter what a president's policies are if he/she is attempting to eliminate the constitution.
Obama, Washington you name it - impeach!
Solicit another country to interfere in our election - IMPEACH!
Nicholas Kristof...you keep me sane. Thank you.
Picture an bunch of little girl's screaming, wailing, crying and wringing their hair out and then notice, wait they are mostly old white men!, hiding behind the fine print in the sacred Constitution that makes us America and of course what is right in the eyes of God. Pounding their chest's and wringing their hands on Sunday tv shows, they would decry the loss of our values. That's what!
On a similar note, i really had good a laugh when Senator's bristled at the suggestion by Adam Schiff that they were afraid of Trump. That's what i call a direct hit. Little whiny girl's.
1
We are dealing with "blinkered America", Mr. Kristof.
Mr. Trump has got his tentacles around these guys. They are locked to him in an indissoluble embrace.
You have a bunch of Republican senators. For whom the President is--pardon my language--a meal ticket. His "base"--and characters from that "base" haunt my dreams at night--his "base likes him so much more than they like them.
Which leaves his "base." Did I mention they haunt my dreams at night? I did? Sorry.
Very many are fellow evangelicals. They look upon Mr. Trump--pardon my language again--as a "secular Messiah." The scowling magician, waving a wand and--presto chango!--abortion and gay marriage vanish from the land. The Ten Commandments are posted in every courthouse. America is restored to the pristine purity that. . .that--
--that it never had. We all know this. They don't.
Oh Mr. Kirstof, why go on? Logic--argument--reasoned debate--as with the gun lobby--
--is wasted. "What if Mr. Trump were Mr. Obama?"
"He's NOT," they'd bellow back. "He's TRUMP.
"Let Trump be Trump."
And he is.
Lord help us all--
--he is.
1
If Obama had done a grain of sand of what Trump has done he'd have been eaten alive. That's a where the thought experiment ends.
1
It takes a Harvard professor to figure out and Tutor us that you should consider the case at hand impartially?
Genius.
Sure the obvious point is better made in standardized jury Instructions in most every circuit in the country and there is even some frenchified thing called voir dire to deal with the matter that takes place every Court day somewhere in the country.
But heh. Columns don’t write themselves. And Cass is famous at volume publishing.
And dropping Obama into the mix makes a great troll. And a chance to recycle other famous trolls.
Long live the business model.
Even if it were Obama on trial, I'd want to hear witnesses and have all the evidence.
1
The Democrats say they have new witnesses who will show Trump really did commit crimes
If true, and if Republican Senators vote “no”, the Democrats MUST do another impeachment in the House.
BOTH Trump and McConnell will then be destroyed, and both the WH and Senate come back to the Democrats in November in a landslide.
Fool proof strategy. The Democrats must do this.
Of course this only works if the Democrats are telling the truth snout these new witnesses.
Otherwise.....
It may have gone unnoticed, but at today’s impeachment proceedings, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell wore tan pants! TAN PANTS! Imagine the snub to authority, the blatant disregard for Senate decorum. Yet there he was, waddling in, clad in blue blazer, tie, and TAN PANTS! It’s truly unconscionable. Forget treason, extortion, the fact that Trump is a Russian asset and has been since even before his inauguration. The fact that the Majority Leader deigned to arrive in TAN PANTS is so blatantly un-American as to render the entire impeachment process moot. Let Trump walk, and focus on the pants indiscretion. This is where we are in America. Trump can commit multiple crimes, McConnell can aid and abet these crimes, yet President Barack Obama, a legitimate president who loves this country and who worked tirelessly to make this the United States the envy of the world, was excoriated for wearing a tan suit to the Oval Office. And so America’s precipitous decline continues. Thank you, President Obama, for your courage, wisdom and patriotism, and may Trump and his felonious sycophants fry in Hades for ruining the greatest Democracy the world has ever know.
1
Undoubtedly, if the Senate of 2012 was half as easily triggered as the House of 2019, the Benghazi disaster would have seen Senators under a lot of pressure to get real about Obama vacating his/our leadership role in the world.
This was before all the cops started getting shot. Would that have been a factor?
By the time the plane carrying illegally converted $400 million in foreign currencies landed at midnight in Tehran, the house would have held a vote to impeach Obama. The law of the land SPECIFICALLY banned any transfer of cash to Iran no matter where Barack's true feelings lay.
Had the Obama had to vacate the WH early, would TheBindens Inc. have done a good job of getting set for 2016?
Would Donald Trump have still been sore enough at Obama's malfeasance to make his run? He was already under illegal investogation by Obama orders a FULL year before the election.
Would Hillary have done things differently and actually campaigned three whole times a week, unlike what she did in 2016?
No need to conjure up "what ifs" and "thought experiments" to see the partisan hypcrisy on both sides of this process. Just cast your mind back a little bit before Obama. Anyone remember Bill Clinton?
Sir - I believe you totally misread the dynamic of the Obama era. While I do believe that the Obama Admin was solid - the heavy filtering of the media obscures objectivity. Much like the Kennedy Admin.
At the first critique - NYT, WP, CNN,MSNBC, ABC,CBS, NBC, LAT, ChiTrib, HuffPost would call out racism, dog whistles and destroy the accuser.
Obama would not have lasted past the time if he had said McCain wasn't a war hero. Trump is evil. The devil never stops working.
Many Democrats have experienced this situation .... we had Bill Clinton’s impeachment. We do not have to “imagine if”. I remember the day I ran over to my car and, feeling betrayed, with anger and disgust, ripped off the Clinton/Gore sticker. I was mad! However, I thought Clinton should resign (oh, what a lovely daydream with Gore in the wings) as his offenses were not the high crimes and misdemeanors worthy of impeachment. It was also obvious that the Republicans, then as now, would do anything for power.
Democrats, for the most part, were outraged by Clinton’s behavior. Where is the outrage among Republicans today? Susan Collins, my Senator (for now) is pathetic. Mitt Romney, the moral Mormon, is silent. Lamar Alexander... huh? Lisa..yoohoo, where are you? As they say, the silence is deafening.
And BTW, imagining Barack Obama engaging in anything like this .... no, can’t do it. That stretches the mind beyond its capacity.
If I were you and you were me,
this a different thing would be.
Since I am I and you are you,
we'll both do what we have to do.
Republicans will support lies,
endorse abuse of power,
while Democrats have stronger ties
to truth. They will not cower.
Obama versus Donald Trump.
One has an orange tan.
Trump's Mitch McConnell’s chump.
Obama is his own man.
Trump is a self centered narcissist as has been opined an infinite number of times by others. And while it leads to foot-in-mouth disease, the evil lies in the breast of Mitch McConnell and his support for the unsupportable because it is supported by the GOP and its news outlet, Fox. Please write a bit more about how Mitch became so amoral and hypocritical. Remember 2009 c. "our goal is to make Obama a one term president". How is that truly patriotic?
1
This argument is one of the worst to still exist — “what if it was ____.” There is no logical means to translate the “what if” into anything believable except by deploying rationalizations of subjective interpretations based on prejudiced meanings and imperfect views, which are derived from biases in thinking. The goal is ultimately a cheap polemic or journalist trick, the mother-load, self-delusion. “As long as the majority will play, the prevailing view that comes of it must be true, right? C’mon.
Just oasis me a banana.
The self righteous repubs . Would have had a field day ... With the full cooperation of all media .
1
If this sham was occurring against Obama the Left would be in a tizzy here and tripping over themselves to paint the Republicans as evil monsters.
Kinda like what they are doing now.
1
Obama began the Brain study initiative. That should have raised alarms for the fact of civil and moral rights and his friendship with ABC. It was a cover up and it's partly why Trump was elected and now on trial in the Senate. I refer you to Sekulow's speech.
If Hillary had won, would she have been impeached for her inevitable cover-up of her campaign's hiring of Russian government intelligence agents (via cutouts) to gather dirt on her opponent, Trump, in order to manipulate the election?
And all this, the thought experiments, the “drug deal” in plain sight, emolument issues, the failure to appoint officials that need senate approval and the denial of congressional oversight: does not the average American have to live within the bounds of the law? Don’t they know that everyone needs constraint?
McConnell and the Republican robots known as senators are clearly uninterested in doing the job we taxpayer are paying them to do, That raises the question: Why are we taxpayers continuing to pay their salaries and fund their rich benefit and pension plans? During this readers many years of employment, employees refusing to do their job were fired. Hope all taxpayers keep that in mind come November, for we are certainly paying the salaries and funding benefits for a lot of deadbeats.
1
The "thought experiment" is deceptive, because the Democrat Party has not courted single-issue voters to the same degree as the Republicans have done since Clinton campaigned on the economy-- and he faced impeachment, which perhaps says something about single-issue politics. I doubt someone who showed his colors as early in the game as Trump did could win the nomination of today's Democratic party, much less the presidency.
Even if a bad apple did make it through, I as well as many other Democrats would not hesitate to call for impeachment of a Democratic president if he or she showed themselves to be even a fraction as corrupt, unfit, and morally bankrupt as Donald Trump. That's one purpose of having a vice president in the same party.
It is late 1940, FDR is running for an unprecedented third term. He is on the phone with Churchill discussing the pending Lend Lease Act (March 1941). He says, "Winston, I need you to do us a little favor about Wendell Wilkie," with the indication no favor-no Lend Lease. Oh how such little differences in a president's character change history!
The reality is, Obama never would have done it. He was the cleanest President since Eisenhower.
He is an expert on the Constitiution and respects the law. Trump has no respect for anything.
1
It is difficult to answer a hypothetical about what we would do, but the Democrats are concerned with law and order to show Trump cannot follow either and the Republicans are concerned with staying in power. The problem is the Conservative and Evangelical echo chamber that constantly proclaims the liberals are out to get Trump, to undo the 2016 election, to take away guns, to take away religious domination, etc. etc. Trump can do just about anything to cut taxes, push Evangelical rights, undo Obama, and claim to be infallible and his base will love him. Sadly too many Americans don't understand the Constitution and rely on Fox "loudmouths" and TV ministers to explain how the godless socialists want to destroy the America they and DJT are trying to make great again! God help us all!
1
I don't buy your premise that both sides would see it the same way if roles were reversed. Remember Al Franken ?
2
The republicans operate on a different standard of ethics. Do as we say, not as we do. President Clinton engaged in (very stupid) consensual and extramarital sex and the republicans said there was no need to break any laws, he had to be impeached and removed from office. It deeply offended their "family values." This president who has been accused of sexual misconduct by over twenty women, and who was caught red handed holding up military aid to Ukraine for his own personal gain, has not broken any laws, the republicans say. May each and every last one of these hypocrites be voted out of office.
How about this angle…
It clears the way for a VP named Klobuchar – and future SCOTUS appointments named (in alphabetical order):
> Garland
> Obama
> Srinivasan
I would thank Trump for his service and his trouble – maybe the other way around – and compliment him on doing in one term what took Giuliani two…
In fairness to Rudy, NYC’s a bigger city than DC…
Like Steve at Apple – the guy will be even bigger, second time around…
Trump is an anomaly, on purpose. He revels in upsetting norms, and accomplishes this primarily via his incessant lies. I look forward to the day when his lifetime of lies catches up with him...all the kings horses and all the kings men, won’t be able to save this sad old man.
Obama impeached? Given that he and his SOS Rice allowed the Russians to "attack" the US (Google " Rice knock it of") and there were no actions taken against him, the though tft experiment is ludicrous.
What about the Fast and the Furious where Obama cites executive privilege for everything?
Yes, I can see myself jumping to Obama's defense if the facts of this case were the same. Having said that, when I vote for a candidate, I do factor in ethical/moral variable--which in Trump's case was a no brainer--once a thug always a thug.
1
You start the conversation pretending that you are open minded as to whether impeachment is purely political ... & then switch gears.
The argument would have been more valid if the Obama situation presented was the “ Let Vlad know I’ll have more flexibility after the election...”. If Republicans had rushed to impeach Obama over that conversation there would be some similarity. Only a “hot mic” gave us access to that conversation.
I wish Democrats would stop using the rally comment that Trump made...(“Hey Russia, if you’re listening, could you find her emails...?”)
It’s so silly to use that as something serious & grounds for impeachment. It weakens the case against him.
Trump would have been fired from his job as an educator for multiple violations of professional codes of conduct and his overt lack of self control, viz: bullying, sexism, racial decisiveness...
1
President Obama a brilliant man and wonderful president during difficult times kept this country from falling into economic abyss. He always knew that the party of white people the GOP would be looking for anything to destroy his presidency. I remember a exchange between Erich Holder with Jeff Session, Mr. Holder was schooling Jeff Session politely on the Constitution. Jeff looked and sounded like a fool not a lawyer
These pathetic ignorant white senators have been shown that they are no match for brilliance and love for this country by the American people. The mafia lawyers were talking to there group not for anyone else because we are to smart for them
President Obama outsmarted the GOP by the Rule of Law because he was not going to be the black president impeached by these low life entitled white people. President Obama loves this country and that is why we all love Obamacare.
President Obama is everything that Trump and his minions wishes they could be.
Trump has already received the I and when he passes away the first line in the obituary will talk about the IMPEACHMENT and how he picked on a student who cared about climate change. Trump wrote a beautiful story of corruption for himself.
Movie stars indicted for bribing colleges to accept their children.
2
Where is Obama in this constitutional crisis?
It wouldn’t have been Obama. “The Ukraine mess would have been out of character for Obama, while it is entirely in character for Trump. “ Don’t soil his name in any way by connecting it to the treacherous man occupying the White House.
And now the Republicans are talking about investigating Joe Biden. Trump is a virus on our nation.
Look what the democrat party did to Al Franken. I rest my case. Biden would be President right now.
A crime is a crime.
Bribing a foreign country so you can cheat in an election is a crime.
Withholding Congressionally authorized funds is illegal.
Putting personal interests before our national security interest is an abuse of power.
Obstructing Congress and abusing power are wrong and impeachable.
The difference is Republicans think anything a Democrat does is criminal or evil (from Obama's tan suit, Hillary being SOS during Benghazi attack, Bill's consensual sex)...but they excuse even the most corrupt and criminal behavior by Republicans even when it threatens our national security (case in point is Trump - from bribery and obstruction, all the way to his use of unsecure phone lines and email).
Republicans are hypocrites. As proven time and time again.
They'll allow caging children at the US border; support the death penalty but outlaw a woman's choice on motherhood; scream when Hillary used personal email as SOS but ignore Trump's worse behavior as POTUS on unsecure phone/email; support McConnell's refusal to do his constitutional duty to hold hearings on Obama's Supreme Court nominee; holler "Lock her up" while still supporting all the convicted and jailed Trump campaign personnel, claim they are religious but support a criminal thug like Trump who treats people like dirt and is accused of sexual assault, defrauding people, and racism (among other things).
1
President Obama WAS on trial from BEFORE his first day in office!! ( I miss him daily )
1
If Obama had messed up like this I would have lost all respect for him. I lost respect for Bill Clinton; what a foolish man he was shown to be. I am, by the way, a lifelong Democrat who is to the left of moderate.
If it were Obama being impeached there would be character witnesses.
To imagine Obama doing this requires imagining a different Obama...an Obama who would refuse to honor subpoenas and block witnesses from testifying. That Obama would deserve impeachment.
Republicans would have had the decency to not impeach a duly elected Democrat President just for winning (unless he was abusing a child intern and lying about it in court proceedings - which of course President Obama would never do)
Face it, Republicans are evil.
This is not a matter of opinion or belief. Republicans are determined to hurt people to get their way. With Trump as their leader, they have stumbled into fascism. The shame is, 42% of Americans are with him and the Republican party has sold it's soul to the devil.
President Barack Obama always behaved and acted like a President should, I just couldn't even start writing his name and impeachment in the same sentence.
These three questions are interesting, but my concern is about a fourth question. Now that this Republican Senate will absolve Trump of obvious criminal wrongdoing, what will he do next?
Trump has ordered thousands of Hispanic children into internment camps, with no plans to ever reunite them with their families. And not a whisper of disapproval from his Republican toadies. Trump has publicly said that the KKK and neo-Nazis are some very fine people and his Republican toadies continue to kowtow to him, as hate crimes against ethnic minorities skyrocket.
We can now expect Trump to become even more extreme. There is literally nothing he would not do to ensure his position in the Oval Office. He certainly will not leave voluntarily, in 2020 or 2024.
Trump needs to continue to stoke the hatred of his base. So we should expect this "president" to continue to target minorities. There is no reason to think that he won't expand the internment camps to include U.S. citizens. This Supreme Court has undertaken the most ridiculous legal contortions to uphold his Muslim ban and Wall funding - acts entirely devoid of any supporting evidence. In short, Trump is now limited only by his imagination and the laws of physics.
And for those of us who aren't white, aren't straight, or aren't Christian, we must redouble our efforts to ensure our safety, and the safety of our families. Because Donald Trump is just warming up.
President Obama is on trial every day on FOX and the other hate media outlets. Of course there’s no evidence but they’re successful in hoodwinking millions of uneducated people into agreeing with their verdict. Same with Hillary. No evidence, lock her up.
"What if It Were Obama on Trial?"
No worries, he'd certainly be acquitted...in the media, that is.
False fantasy equivalence.
Let’s take Kristof’s last example: “What if he were a high school vice principal who ensured that a police detective’s son would be accepted in advanced placement classes — and then added, “I’d like you to do us a favor, though.” The favor would be an investigation of the vice principal’s ex-wife before their upcoming child custody hearing, in hopes of tilting the outcome in his favor.”
But then add to that: “Because the vice principal recently discovered that his ex-wife is doing illicit drugs and is somehow engaged in a criminal enterprise to fund her new habit.”
Would the vice principal be fired at this point? I sincerely doubt it. In fact the headline might read: “Jim Smith, PS 232 Vice Principal, Awarded Medal for Reporting Crime Ring Lead”
1
When the Tea Party started, we were all kind of quiet. No one would believe that stuff right? They gave us such exceptional candidates as Christine O'Donnell, the failed Delaware witch candidate, Sarah Palin (I can see Russia from my house) and Michele Bachman (vaccines cause mental retardation). After this stellar group of creationists (all women) paved the path, the biggest bozo of all, DJT, famous mostly for exploiting woman and his multiple marriages etc. came along. I think this is a star ge thought experiment. To compare Trump to Obama is like comparing Boris Yeltsin to Gorbachev. The ONLY thing they have in common is nationality...oh wait, Obama wasn't born here...so that's why Donald started that. But I think it is a good experiment, only many years late. 15 years ago, we would have said, "No one will believe this stuff, right?" and now we say, "People will believe anything, if you say it over and over."
At some point you'd think someone would say 'uncle'. Like maybe Mitch McConnell would grow a conscience. But it's not happening. I hope we'll all enjoy the disciplined rule of China. Oh wait, another epidemic, dying pigs, African locusts, Australia on fire, Indonesia under water...end times for Republicans base. They'll be happy!
1
How about this one: What if Trump ordered a drone strike knowing an American teenager would be killed like Obama did?
We can play this silly game all day.
What's the point?
You ask all the right questions. Questions Trump, Republicans , and the base are uninterested in. They do not care what Trump did. They do not care they are exposed as hypocrites. They do not care that Trump says he doesn't know Parnas and then a tape is released showing him dining and talking with...Parnas. But they would care. And they would care greatly if the name Trump was replaced by any Democrat. particularly a Black man or a woman. Because all they care about is making sure no black man or any woman becomes the President of the United States. It has nothing to do with right or wrong or fair play or level playing fields or whether they would look at this differently if it was anyone else in their lives like a school official. They want to be able to ACT deplorably, be given a pass on whatever they do, but not be called deplorables. The problem with what these folks do is they don't recognize that politics and it's historical spoils to the party in power has taken them to a new low. Eventually they will be replaced. And then they will really have something to complain about. It's not fun to be in the minority, Democrats can attest to that now. But Republicans and their base are in the minority demographically. You can only hold back the rising water at the dam for so long. Republicans should expect to be overwhelmed when the time comes. If they voted for Trump as forgotten people, they will have far more to complain about down the road.
The GOP majority in the House would never even consider articles v. Obama. They would’ve been charged as racists. So Obama was immune for 8 yrs. Trump gets no such immunity. And now they have set the new standard for impeachment: When our team holds the House, and there’s an opposing team President, we will impeach.
So if a Democrat is ever elected president (God forbid) and there’s a GOP House...that president must be impeached immediately.
BTW: Obama could’ve been impeached for Fast and Furious, weaponizing the federal law enforcement agencies v. conservative groups, pallets of cash to Iran, lying about Obamacare, the Benghazi scandal, etc.
1
Why do the editorial boar(d)s feel an urge to tell the rest of America how to vote and whom to elect?
Do they feel intellectually superior to us? Smarter than us? More experienced? Better trained? More in a touch with the real life? Better people than us?
My anacorym has always been WITWO.
What If This Was Obama.
Evangelicals don't care.
Mr. Obama would never have been impeached, regardless of his guilt. The Democrats and the echo chamber Main Street media never would have allowed it.
Kristof you should sue Devin Nunes for slander! What goes around ....
In all seriousness, I hope the NYT will stand up against these Republican nihilists. The Republican Party crossed the line 20 years ago and isn't it about time that they be exposed and eviscerated for the harm they have done to our country, the Constitution, and the rule of law?
I've read a tremendous number of comments from readers here and elsewhere - the worry, despair and desperation over a failed state is extraordinary. The voices of the majority are not being heard!!
Thank you! Nick for all you do - for who you are and what you stand for. It's a rare quality you possess.
Now sue Nunes for slander!!
1
The sainted Barack Obama famously offered Vlad Putin ‘post-election flexibility’ and gave away our missile defense in Europe for exactly nothing. You know, real Russian collusion.
Then there was using the IRS to go after his political opponents, running guns to Mexican cartels, spying on journalists, spying on Trump’s campaign, ad nauseam.
In retrospect, Republicans should’ve impeached him. Big difference, though. The Democrat Media Complex had exactly zer interest looking into his malfeasance.
No need to speculate. What did Dems do when Bill Clinton lied under oath and obstructed justice?
If there is a scandal, but no MSM outlet reports on it, does it really happen?
The Obama administration was full of scandals, but none of them were reported on by the NY Times or other Leftist rags.
Fast and Furious
Uranium One
Payments to the Biden Family, Kerry Family, Pelosi Family.
IRS targeting of Tea Party organizations.
Targeting of
True The Vote by IRS and multiple other federal agencies.
And those are just off the top of my head. Do some research and I'm sure I could come up with lots of others.
What a ridiculous op-ed.
We already know he answers to your what-if scenarios. I think they call it history.
What if Obama condoned torture by not prosecuting the perpetrators? Dems are fine with it.
What if Obama violated every American’s 4th amendment rights via mass surveillance? Dems are fine with it.
What if Obama suspended habeas corpus, a principle going back to the Magna Carta, and started assassinating American citizens without due process, including American teenagers? No problem, Dems said.
What if Obama expanded Bush the Second’s two wars into seven, bombing Libya, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, and starting the genocide in Yemen? What’s a few dead brown and black people, Dems said.
What if Obama instigated illegal regime change coups in Libya, Syria, Egypt, Honduras, and -guess what - Ukraine ? No problem, Dems said, because Obama’s star spangled democracy bombs are designed by Raytheon to spread peace and justice and universal happiness, in an ethical and politically correct way, with due regard for diversity issues.
It's amazing that self-obsessed liberals are wringing their hands over a Ukraine phone call, but didn't care that the Dems almost unanimously funded the buffoons $739 billion military budget (Warren voted for it) and the trillion dollar nuclear trainwreck started under Obama. No outrage is sputtered about the civilian deaths in Afghanistan or the US funding of ISIS.
Mr.Kristof seems to have a very low opinion on the intellectual capacity of NYT readers.
2
I’m not an American but I quite admired what President Obama achieved given the state of the world that helped produce his Presidency.
That said, I would also have supported his removal from office had he done what President Trump is accused of doing.
I still hope that witnesses and documents are called.
And in their absence I truly hope that all Americans who wanted a fair trial, irrespective of political affiliation, call for massive peaceful marches around the country, and certainly on the Capitol to show those who oversaw this process that they are officially on notice.
The phone calls to their offices are good but I think a visual narrative of a march would speak volumes.
Again, I’m not American but the sense I get is that your country is about to officially take a very dark turn and I hope the moment isn’t lost. Do not go out with a whimper...in fact do not go out at all.
Good luck friends.
I think the article only approaching one facet of what the Fox news crowd beliefs - that the offense is not impeachable. The Fox news crowd not only believes the actions are not impeachable but also believes there is no evidence Trump ordered or knew about what he is being accused of.
1
What if George Wallace had won the Democratic nomination and been elected? No. I could not overlook his behavior. Mistakes are mistakes. Corruption is corruption. But character is character.
Obama won the Nobel Peace prize from what I understand because he was black, half black if you want to get picky.
I thought that was wierd, but then race is everything in American politics.
Most Americans seem to be very tribal, the media included. So you have to be very careful to find out what's " truth" down there everything seemingly so biased, so tribal.
You almost want to stop reading the " news" and stick with reading technical journals.
2
Obama should have had the guts to go after or trash Mitch when he went against law and denied his SCOTUS pic. Instead, he believed in the better angels and dreamed of his house in Martha's Vineyard. Putin had won, but may I remind the Cracker Barrel nation of this: you so-called Republican Patriots will very soon turn on each other for the sake of a pathetic Russian oligarch who is as every bit as dumb and insecure as President Access Hollywood.
Let’s not.
Republicans were dying to impeach Obama, threatened to from almost the very beginning. Problem is, you need to do a crime to be impeached...
Fast and furious, Benghazi, DACA, Syria, Arab spring, Iran ‘s billions; yet republicans did not cry to impeach Obama. Democrats, and Harry Reid, lowered the bar for impeachment cries, for all future presidents.
1
If Obama were on trial the Republicans would want to bring back the Spanish Inquisition or crucifixion.
1
A better question to ask is "What if George W" was on trial? I think both Republicans and Democrats would not be so harsh to judge. W made some very stupid mistakes but his character was never questioned. He didn't lie an average of 11 times a day. He stayed sexually faithful and married to his wife of 30+ years and didn't sleep w prostitutes.
Americans can handle an innocent -- but stupid -- mistake a lot better than they can an evil narcissistic liar.
2
If it were Barack Obama on that phone call I would’ve said, that’s messed up, there are proper channels for that. The ensuing scandal would’ve caused white-americas’ heads to explode.
1
“Imagine if it was Obama” is always a fun game. Let’s play, shall we? And while doing this, imagine how everything would sound reported on Fox News.
Remember when Obama’s lawyer went to jail after paying off a porn star to stay silent about cheating on Michelle with her? Remember when Obama had to pay for duping people out of their money for his fake Obama University? Also, there was that time he claimed windmills cause cancer? And when he played weatherman and misreported facts about a hurricane. That certainly wasn’t dangerous. And there was that time when Obama refused to release his tax returns. Remember when Obama was elected with the help of the Russians and he blamed Ukraine for rigging elections instead? Remember when he explained how he felt McCain was not a war hero and he preferred a hero that wasn’t captured? And also when Obama decided to have his Press Secretary stop addressing the media because it is fake? Then there was that thing when Obama clandestinely held up aid approved by Congress to extort a foreign nation into manufacturing dirt on a Mitt Romney and then lied about it.
This could go on for days.
2
in trying to emphatise with the other side, u are assuming Obama would be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanour, it will never happen because in 8 years, none of the republican haters could find any dirt on Obama, but they could of course invent stuff like birthism
1
"In short, Trump’s plan almost succeeded — and in any case, he will get away with it in the sense that he is sure to be acquitted by the Senate."
This plan was discovered, stopped, and investigated and he has been impeached for it.
FULL STOP.
That the Senate will sully their hands by acquitting him is immaterial to these facts.
What is not immaterial is that damning facts will continue to emerge regarding Ukraine, Russia, SA, Turkey, UAE, and USA (etc). Each time these are revealed I hope our press ask R Senators whether their acquittal vote excuses this one too.
And you can be sure republicans will revert to knee-jerk constitutionalism the moment the D's win the white house.
1
If this was Obama, Republicans would have had him impeached, removed from office and then a Republican Attorney General would have indicted him for treason.
The fact that you Americans seem utterly unwilling to protest this sham trial in public is very depressing. You look so lazy and lethargic.
2
I can't wait till this impeachment thing is over. The NYT has so exhausted the possibilities for opinion coverage, saying now that they are considering it from "some other angle", that they're positing other defendants, including none other than that Democratic saint, Barak Obama. Get it over with!
Oh, yes white privilege Kristof, let's imagine if Obama was: 1. A virulent racist; 2. A corrupt cuss; 3. A sociopath; 4. A thief; and 5. a liar. Well, you have to dream or say "what if," because it never happened, never would happen, and even if you rewrite history, Obama will always be better than Plump Trump the people's chump. No wonder you are failing--between this and publishing pedophile opinion papers (Dershowitz) you are on a roll.
They were ready to impeach Obama for wearing a tan suit.
Pointless exercise as no one, and I mean NO ONE, but a slick, grifting, immoral, corrupt, shady and unscrupulous ignoramus with narcissistic tendencies would be ugly enough to do what he did as a US President other than Trump.
1
What if Obama were impeached for having used a drone to extrajudicially murder a US citizen and his 16 year old American son?
Of course, Obama would be guilty. He was guilty of the same offense for eight years: being a black man in the White House.
1
It is difficult for me to consider other comparable scenarios, with other situations and people, when I think about Donald Trump and his corrupt actions, that have brought him to the point of Impeachment. Donald J. Trump is a narcissistic king, not a patriot.
Is there another scenario where the constituents are extremely afraid of the person in power, and will do anything to please him, or at least stay out of his line of fire? Is there another scenario where the followers of the leader only receive their information from the leader's news feed? Is there another scenario where the senators at the Impeachment trial are so immature that they would bring twirly fidgets into the chamber, complain about the length of the sessions, and make fun of how the House Manager looks?
The only comparable scenario to the Impeachment Trial of Donald J. Trump would be one where: lies are truth and there is a lot of lying; and the people who speak truth to power are the enemy, liars, stupid, or "liddle".
My father served in the Navy in WWII for four years and was at Normandy beach. My mother made many sacrifices at home during the war. My parents did not live to see this time where we have a boisterous, deranged, childish king President, and his sycophant followers.
When I was young I would ask my parents how Adolf Hitler rose to power. Why did people stand by and allow the extermination of the Jews and other atrocities. My parents had no answer, but they said never again.
I note that Mr. Kristof is focused solely on the behaviors of the presidents and vice-principal. What we need to consider, and this, in my mind, is far more frightening, is the corruption of the Senate, the Justice Department, State Department, National Security, and the Judiciary. People in these organizations realize that because of Trump's vicious vindictiveness, they must remain loyal or they will lose their jobs, either by being fired or by being voted out of office.
But more damning is the interest convergence. Trump's interests align with his base's and the GOP Senators' interests and this convergence means that they will support him regardless.
Suppose that the legislative, judicial, Justice and State Departments, along with a rabidly supportive base had a similar interest convergence with Obama or Clinton (either Clinton - fill in the first name of your choice). In this case, would we have seen Benghazi? Would Bill Clinton have even been impeached?
I think not.
Same question could be asked about gun control. If Trump moved to seize all hand guns, would he become the doyenne of the left or would erstwhile gun control advocates start caching guns and ammo? I'm a fan of gun control measures - like mandatory registration, a thorough background check, and limiting weapon types, but I can honestly say that if Trump - whose dictatorial tendencies are well known - I'd consider burying an AK or AR in my backyard.
I am a very firm believer that Obama was the best president of the 11 during my lifetime, but I am sure, if the very same evidence which I have just seen from the house was brought against him, I would be very disappointed and would support his immediate removal. At the very least we should see a fair trial in the senate with documents and witnesses before summarily dismissing such serious and well supported charges. At the very least give the American people that much.
3
I've asked myself that question: What if it were "my" president who had done what Trump did? It's a hard scenario to get my head around, because I don't think Obama would ever have done such a thing. But I do remember some policy-related things Obama did and didn't do and how I went on White House dot gov to let him know that I wasn't happy about it. And I like to think that if his lapses had been ethical ones that flouted the Constitution and rule of law, I would have been intellectually honest enough, and patriotic enough, to call for his impeachment. I try to be loyal to principles, not people. Loyalty to people can take you down a bad road.
3
The question of what would we think about impeachment if it were Obama rather than Trump being impeached isn’t quite the right one to ask. The reasons Trump has been impeached matter. Obama the person could not have been impeached for the same reasons. Their personalities are radically different. Opposites in many ways. The point the question should be trying to get at is how would Democrats and Republicans feel about impeachment for the reasons Trump has been impeached if a Democrat were president rather than a Republican? So, ask this question: if Trump were a Democrat, how would Democrats and Republicans feel about impeaching him for the reasons he has been impeached? This possibility is conceivable because Trump once was a Democrat. As a Democrat, I would feel exactly the same—impeach him. And I am sure I would never have voted for him during the primary. I object to Trump as a person, not his party choice.
4
I suggest another thought experiment:
In every election in US, the person who ultimately gets the most votes wins---except in the election of our president and vice president. Five times in the history of US (two of these times in the twenty first century) the election was won by the candidate who got the minority of the votes, because of the absurdity of our electoral college systems.
If this were the case in any other country we certainly would not consider it a democracy.
Is it not possible that the Framers were brilliant, but still fallible?
3
Anne...Are you proposing that we amend the Constitution? As we all know, that is no easy task & in this case, I think impossible. Do you actually think state legislatures would agree to such an amendment?
@Gail
Of course. Members of state legislatures were elected by getting the most votes from the residents of their states (in most cases). Constitutional amendments are never an easy task.
If Trump is acquitted, he has won in the battle to be in the strongest branch of government. And that upends the whole way our nation was designed.
2
I don’t agree. Trump will be acquitted because the Senate is allowing it to happen. He could just as easily been tossed out of office, if the Democrats had controlled the Senate. Trump is weak. The problem is the Republican Party.
Does the Constitution work if the citizens of the United States and their elected officials no longer value honesty, truth, and country over party?
This may be the real thought experiment in which we should be engaged.
The Clinton impeachment and trial was troubling for many reasons.
For me, the most troubling was that he was exonerated after having committed perjury. Being honest and telling the truth while under oath is a foundation of the rule of law.
Unfortunately, the Clinton trial established that a President presiding over a good economy can be exonerated after having committed perjury.
Adam Schiff asked this question in Trump’s trial, If this is not impeachable, then was is?
Unfortunately, the question is understood by all to be rhetorical. The Senate is certain to vote not to convict.
The Clinton impeachment trial determined that perjury gets a bye.
The Trump impeachment trial seems destined to determine that strong arming another government to interfere in an upcoming election and obstructing any Congressional oversight will also get a bye.
Pundits are fond of saying that American is more than a country; its an idea. Perhaps. But, two impeachment trials have tarnished the idea that America is a unique, shining city on the hill.
2
While I agree this is a useful exercise, it aims at the current state of affairs. Until the voters as a collective group, regardless of party affiliation, demand a higher standard of conduct from our elected officials - 'We the People' will get more of what we have and the issues the country faces will go unattended. We need to vote into office people of character who have the spine to explain to their constituents in clear terms both sides of an issue and be willing to take a side even if not popular; BEING able to communicate why!
I believe there is more consensus among us as Americans than we realize. It is most unfortunate that there is an industry - at all levels - that makes their livelihood by penning us up like sheep into different herds and using sheep dogs to keep us there. I expect more of our political leaders. The rest of my countrymen should as well.
6
Adam Schiff has addressed this in interviews. He has said that he hopes he would do the same as he has been doing if the president were a member of his own party.
Like the Democrats(including myself) did when Clinton was impeached?
I'll add an additional thought experiment that to me cuts to the crux of the matter. I was raised with a simple ethical principle that has been a good guide for any difficult situation and I think the party of Trump needs to think deeply about: the ends never justify the means.
For those who think that their deeply held beliefs are getting support at the national level in the current administration, which justifies looking the other way on any number of other ethical fronts, I suggest that you look more carefully for that baby in that bathwater you are getting ready to throw out. Our country has a history of building bridges of opportunity, leading by example for the rest of the world, which often follows. Is the world that Trump seems intent on creating the kind of world you want your grandchildren to live in?
12
It's a nice exercise, if only to think how the Senate Republicans' perspective can be shifted. If the polls are correct, then the Republican citizens' perspective has already changed--most of them want witnesses and documents. Most of them understand fairness and seeking the truth.
And Obama, as pointed out, would never have been in this mess. Integrity was a hallmark of his Presidency.
9
"What if" questions always have an element of silliness. When I was raising my young children, I would sometimes have to call a time-out on "what ifs."
"What if" Obama were on trial? Would Republicans act the way Democrats are acting now? Probably. Both sides are human beings, both sides are pretty partisan. So what?
This doesn't change the fact that Democrats are calling for Trump's head on a stake with little proof of any wrong-doing on his part. Plenty on the Bidens' though!
@honeybee... so right... we don't need the silliness of facts, evidence, eyewitnesses, video tape, audio recordings and for haven's sake we dont need the silliness of our own eyes and ears regarding Don Il Duce Trump. But there's a lot out there about how they faked the moon landing if they would only listen.
The thought experiment with Obama is a tough one, and perhaps not entirely analogous. Democratic voters read or watch a variety of trusted media outlets (like The Times), which I would trust to accurately report his mis-deeds. The opinion sections would recognize the facts and would probably have fair and mixed opinions on how to proceed. My own opinion would be moved by facts (as it was during the Clinton trials). Since the Republicans are primarily trusting Fox News, which, I would argue, is presenting a whole different set of non-facts, there is nothing to temper or inform their opinions. I’m lost on how we go on as a nation since the whole notion of ‘reality’ feels like it’s on trial.
11
Did it ever dawn on you why Fox News is the ratings leader day in and day out? The American people have had enough of the slanted news echoed by the networks and the CNN’s of cable. Get ready for 4 more years of Trump and a return of the House to Republican control. The losers that the Democrats are presenting for the nomination have me readying my popcorn for November....it should be an early night!
Two observations. Yes the truth has a way of trickling out, but history has taught us repeatedly that when it does, often it’s much later, it’s materiality has diminished, and basically, the perpetrator ‘got away with it.’ In other words, Trump’s complete library of transgressions will not be known to the public for years, even in this age of smart phones, electronic surveillance and high suspicion. And second, we actually do hold a school vice principal to a higher standard than the president or almost any elected official. Once you meet the basic minimum (constitutional) requirements for president - natural-born citizen, 35 years or older and 14 years in the US - anything goes. Even a felon can qualify and run for federal office (Eugene Debs (president), James Trafficant (Congress)), but the likelihood of being seated is (for now) is effectively zero. Admittedly, if there is any candidate who can change that record, it’s Trump.
1
In card games, the players agree to the rules. Let's suppose, one of the rules of the game is that a hole card (a card that's left face down) is only turned face up at a stipulated time, perhaps at the end of the hand. Now, let's suppose that one of the players at the table chooses to look at his hole card sooner than is allowed by the agreed-to rules. What happens then?
Well, after reminding the player of the rules, should that player persist in looking at his hole card before it's allowed, the game is pretty much over until he either leaves the table or, we're told in the untamed West, someone at the table arranges for his departure at the point of a gun.
Trump's treatment of the rule of law is pretty much akin to the player who refuses to play by the rules.
The game can't continue because of his behavior.
How is this different? It really isn't. The game is over till the malefactor leaves the table. America's hopes for continued, orderly existence as a democratic Republic are shelved for as long as the GOP persists in enabling the president to make up his own rules.
Don't look to the next election for a solution to the conundrum either. By GOP logic, that election, should Trump lose, would just be a desperate attempt on the part of Democrats to reverse the will of the 2016 electorate.
3
I'm a lifelong democrat in heart and soul. When I found out about the Clinton affair with Lewinsky, he became persona non grata to me. I didn't even follow his impeachment. I wouldn't listen to his SOTU speeches or follow him in any way. I couldn't look at him. That was my president that betrayed me, it was personal. If it were Obama, a man that I cherish, I would have felt exactly the same way. The republicans care only about money and power and Trump has delivered it to them. Trump's supporters prove over and over that they have no moral fabric, combined with being lied to 24 hours a day by right wing media, they will never give up their approval of him. Most of them really believe that nothing happened.
9
A different question: Suppose we were watching a criminal jury trial and we see most of the jury members winking at the defendant and giving thumbs-ups. What would we think? Would we think that this is a fair trial and we are seeing an impartial jury at work?
The foreman of that jury is Mitch McConnell.
10
I too had been thinking about what if this had been Obama and I agree with Kristof. Republicans would have been howling for his head. It is the world we live in now - sadly. But the vice principal analogy doesn't work for me. While it can be argued the situation described is analogous, the firing of a high school vice principal is not nearly the same as removing a sitting President. So, I'll go back to the Obama as opposed to Trump comparison and where I land is here: We are one year (less) away from the next election. Let the voters decide.
1
Sadly in our elections the Electoral College decides and not voters. And Gerrymandering has cheated us out of fair elections - in third world countries it is open corruption, Americans would love to think they are different, sadly where the final outcome matters, they are not - as long as cooperations control the elections, American elections are rigged. Let us get our heads out of the sand.
Oh come on. Like they didn't do it. Continuous fallacious charges in many "investigations". There was a campaign for impeachment. We know that if they had gone that far there wouldn't have been illegal obstruction of Congress.
With all due respect and prejudice towards none, according to Hollywood icon, Clint Eastwood, President Obama was "an empty chair". I tend to agree. Although it can be credibly said President Obama "did nothing wrong", he did very little right.
2
Mr. Kristof, In regard to your statement "What if it had worked?" - I have to say it has worked. Trump's defense team and the minions of his in the Senate and House are constantly bringing up Barista and Hunter and Joe Biden still. We will hear this until the election and it will definitely influence some people, just as the FBI director coming out a few days before the 2016 election to say that the FBI is reopening it's case against Hilary Clinton had a definite effect on voter's decisions. This administration's constant lies have a direct effect on voters. These are dangerous times for America's democracy.
11
Serious Question:
Since many prominent Republican senators, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, the Chair of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, announced they would disregard all evidence presented by the House and vote for acquittal before these proceedings even started, can Chief Justice Roberts call a mistrial?
11
I would also add that even though the Ukrainians haven't opened investigations as Trump demanded (yet), the news has been damaging to Joe Biden and his family. The next two days of GOP impeachment presentations will likely be designed to damage Biden as much as possible. So Trump's corrupt intent and actions will continue with a camera running.
10
As I read the comments of Obama voters who maintain that if President Obama had been caught pressuring a foreign government for personal or political gain, they would easily support Obama's removal from office. Though I voted for Obama twice and will vote for any Democrat in November, even those I don't particularly like, I don't think it's quite that easy and clear-cut.
That Obama was the first African American president would have tainted the calls for impeachment with our nation's history of white supremacy and raised real questions among his supporters whether those making the charges were driven by racial bias. Furthermore, given that Republicans' stated intention to hamstring an Obama presidency and deny the president any political victory, I would wonder whether the charges of misconduct were motivated by the Republican's obstructionist agenda.
After a life time of watching the mendacity of Donald Trump, I can't fathom how anyone could admire him. However, millions do, and given the Democrats' hatred of him, I can understand how his fans would be suspicious.
Two details in the case against President Trump, though, would weigh on me if President Obama had done the same. Against the beliefs of US intelligence officers, Trump promoted Russian propaganda, and rather than use the institutions of American justice to pursue allegations against the Bidens, Trump secretly used private actors. These are the actions of a dictator, not the leader of a democracy.
8
The Obama comparison is unrealistic. However, the thought experiment fails for a different reason. The question is asked in hindsight rather than foresight. You're thinking about the Obama presidency that already happened. How would you feel if the next Democratic President were impeached for extorting foreign interference in a presidential election? What if we were talking about Biden or Sanders or Warren? What would you feel?
Once Trump is acquitted, the answer is not much. If a Supreme Court position was vacant today, a Democratic Senate wouldn't bat an eyelid over refusing a vote on any Trump nominee. So too with foreign election interference. Future presidents from both parties will be expected to solicit foreign help. Thanks to McConnell, this is the new normal.
NATO, if you're listening, Democrats could use some help. Maybe Angela Merkel could have some words with Deutsche Bank about Trump's tax returns. Germany can release them at a critical moment in the US election. Fair is fair. That's how we operate from here on out.
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Mr. Kristof there is a huge difference between the job of high school principal and President of the United States. The President is elected by the people and generally receives sixty million votes or more. Impeachment and removal is a drastic remedy that should not be used unless there is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that the President did some thing truly egregious. It is like the death penalty. It is an act of overturning an election. When the framers used the words "high crimes and misdemeanors, this is what they meant, something truly awful justifying the annulment of an election.
I would not have voted to remove Bill Clinton nor would I vote to remove President Trump.
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We have higher standards for a high school principal than the President? That shouldn’t make sense to anyone.
What if Trump knew the IRS was mistreating progressive applicants for 501(c)(3) status in the run up to midterm elections in order to limit the applicants' influence (and thereby benefit him and his party) in those elections?
What if Trump knew the ATF was running guns into Mexico in order to manufacture a narrative that would benefit him politically? And what if one of those guns were ultimately implicated in the killing of a US Border Agent?
What if Trump used a drone and hellfire missile to assassinate a US citizen overseas, without Congressional input or any semblance of due process?
What if the pro-Iranian embassy protesters in Baghdad were actually a well-coordinated militant faction, who managed to drag the US Ambassador out into the street and beat him to death? What if US citizens were told the whole thing was just a spontaneous protest, in order to play down the severity of the situation, because the next election is only a few weeks away?
Tan suit indeed.
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@Stephen Nice Fox taking points. The IRS investigations targeted “liberal” groups as well, it’s just the religious ones that got their knickers in a bunch over it. Fast and Furious was started by Bush, not Obama. He certainly botched it but he did not start it. Benghazi, again with Benghazi. Sainted Ronnie permitted 240 some odd Marines to be bombed to smithereens.
@North Dakota Nice to know that we can add constitutionally-protected religious groups to the list of those discriminated against by the IRS. Thanks for that.
Re F&F, “Bush started it” is hardly a defense for continuing, well, anything.
Re Beirut, I think we all know the worst thing Reagan ever did was to put on a tan suit and answer the call.
Interesting since I asked the same question of my Trump supporter friends their opinion if Obama had done exactly as Trump has done and they were ready to impeach Obama immediately even though they think the same actions of Trump are not impeachable. The cognitive dissonance was striking.
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So I assume you would then argue that Obama’s claim of executive privilege in fast and furious was obstruction of justice? That lying about the origins of Benghazi on the eve of an election was abuse of power.
Glad we cleaned that up.
For the Democrats to not impeach Trump for expedient purposes, i.e. so near to elections etc. and to risk losing the election, it was still imperative that the impeachment happen because these high crimes cannot be ignored. That would be more damaging to the country. Thus, as much as I think that Obama walks on water, I would feel the same way. That respect for the constitution - even though it was a bunch of white guys who wrote it-a concern for the integrity of the country, Obama would have, as Freud labeled, "lacunae in the superego"- holes in his conscience. Holes that were not evident until he committed the offending acts. Personally, I would have gone through a period of mourning and questioning of my own ability to assess people.
Trump does not require us to look so deeply because he is so overt. He has not conscience which is part of his danger to the country. The 25th amendment should have been used long ago to removed him from office because it was clear very early in his term that he was unfit for office. Waiting until he "got caught" committing high crimes only makes me think what didn't he get caught doing.
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Well, not if the vice principal is also the football coach who took the team to the state championship 10 years running, promises the school board and the teachers a pay raise, or can nearly guarantee them all a job for the next 6 years if they protect him by spewing propaganda that appeals to the half of town that was never smart enough to graduate from the school.
Trump is a sleaze ball. But he's the GOP's sleaze ball. They will keep him around until his usefulness expires. Once Trump and the GOP Senators win re-election in 2020 the fealty will end, McConnell and the rest of them will drop him faster than the vice principal/coach who didn't win in year 11. They will unplug their noses at last and Trump's foul stench will bring an end to their loyalty.
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The GOP managed to turn many Dems away from Clinton by maligning her for years in to preempt her bid for office.
Even Barr the bulldog couldn't tuen anything up. Republicans were able to sell it and Democrats will have to continue to push the real dangers of of Trump. Ultimately, the damage to our constitution is the real injury to this country. It is truly disheartening to see the legislative body, the once co-equal branch of the government relinquishing its powers. It astounds me to think any senator would allow this to happen.
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This is a difficult hypothetical to participate in.
So far, I can't remember a Democratic President and/or candidate as openly corrupt as Trump is and was during the election.
We would have never voted for them in the first place.
What does that say?
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And....in any other trial, if a "jury" member had stated that they had already committed to siding with the defendant before taking an oath purporting honesty, they would be released
Perjury comes to mind...."No, really, just disregard what I said in front of that microphone Mr. Roberts".....
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Rather than engage in the almost impossible task of imagining Obama being like Trump in any way, just ask what would happen to the CEO of a public company who, as two examples, admitted taking money from charity or ran a bogus “university”.
I think we have to conclude that Trump’s followers dig the way he breaks laws, rules and lies while getting away with it. They are thrilled. And they demand Republican lawmakers help him get away with it. But I’m not sure the elected Tepublicans aren’t just as thrilled as Cletus Redhat in watching Trump be the untouchable crime boss
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One relevant fact that should be noted is that during the impeachment trial of President Clinton, the make up of the Senate was essentially 45 Democrats and 55 Republican. Ten Republicans voted to acquit on the charge of perjury (45 for, 55 against). Five Republicans voted to acquit on the charge of obstruction of justice (50 for, 50 against). Senator Specter voted “not proved” on both articles, which was counted as a vote to acquit. 10 Republican Senators voted against removing the Democratic President on the first article! I sincerely doubt that even five of either party will vote opposite of the rest of their party today. That is the shameful place we are today.
My problem with a requirement of moral standards for eligibility to become president is summed up in two modified aphorisms:
“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those of us who did learn are doomed to cry out, ‘Oh no, not again!’”
“Think about how clueless the average American is, then realize that half of the country is more clueless than that.”
Setting standards for who can run for president will require an amendment to the Constitution. It will take a president much worse than Trump for that to come about due to the difficult path an amendment must take (a.k.a. never).
Yes, presidents should at least meet the required moral standards of a school vice principal, otherwise those of us with such moral standards are doomed to go along, shouting “Oh no, not again!”
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Everytime McConnell smirks he is lying. He is not interested in law and order when it comes to Trump and his problems. Mitch McConnell is interested in one thing: How much power can he get and keep for himself; not the Republican Party: himself!
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Here’s a thought experiment: what if the media didn’t play the role of the political opposition, distorting all sorts of small matters, eagerly repeating unproven reports, and egging on a two year investigation into the most serious but baseless charges? Maybe then the country would have been truly outraged by Trump’s behavior in Ukraine.
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We don't need hypotheticals to think about this. How do most Democrats feel about the Bidens? While I don't believe in the conspiracies about them, I do think that Hunter was morally wrong to take that position and that Joe should have insisted that he not take it. There may have not been anything illegal about it, but it was still sleazy and a clear abuse of the position of the Vice President of the United States.
Yet Joe is still a strong front runner in the primary. We are giving him a pass. Because of that scandal, Joe Biden is last on my picks of all of the Democratic contenders.
However, I would definitely vote for him in the general if he is running against Trump if only because I would choose a slightly unsavory liberal candidate over a total criminal that is destroying our country.
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To me this is not the right thought experiment. The one you are proposing makes the assumption that there is solid proof that wrong doing was committed. At this point there is a lot of hearsay from people that said in 2017 that they wanted Trump impeached.
So, maybe think about it as if the representative that yelled "you lie" went full steam after impeaching Obama for something without hard evidence. Would you accept what he says as fact or would you fight it?
If Obama refused to produce documents and witnesses and obstructed the process like this, I would be angry. Even if I thought the underlying allegations were complete hogwash. I thought the Bengazi hearings were a sham, but didn't think evidence should be withheld.
Well, Obama is an honorable man. As the first black man elected to the presidency he was always cautious. He was a wonderful president who took his oath seriously and worked hard to be a leader. He was an exemplary president. I would defend Obama, but I didn’t have to. He was what Trump can never be. He was a president.
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I have thought about this long and hard. This is an impeachable offense no matter the party. I am liberal and hate Trump , and loved Obama and Clinton presidencies .
During Clinton impeachment trials I was against his impeachment . With age and years , I have become for his impeachment . Not for perjury, since I think he didn’t commit perjury ( he choose his words carefully) but for sexual harassment . His relationship with Ms. Lewinski was sexual harassment and would get you fired. Though it is not criminal behavior.
1
I was a Clinton fan, yet I was pretty disgusted with his behavior. I didn't think it was fair to ask him about his sex life while under oath about a real estate deal, but I was angry that he put the country in that predicament.
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President Obama essentially was on trial from the first not because of anything he had done, but because of who he was.
There was Donald Trump himself, lyingly accusing President Obama of having forged not only his academic credentials but also of pulling off the greatest con in history with a fake birth certificate.
Or Newt Gingrich calling President Obama a Kenyan with outsider allegiances.
Or Boehner threatening to sue President Obama for taking action when members of Congress sat on their laurels.
And so on.
The real role reversal here is for Trump and the GOP. After years of launching real witch hunts, how do you like having no better defense than accusing others of launching a witch hunt?
2
Really? Obama isn't on trial. You and the Senate need to deal with what is actually happening, Trump's impeachment, not some fantasy.
1
The nice thing about 45,
is that every recent president looks remarkably good.
2
Rather a lame way to tell us what we expected you to say - that is POTUS deserves to be impeached.
I request readers to read the letter that 21 State AG's wrote to the Senate - telling them that this so called abuse of power for "corrupt purposes" will and can catch just about anybody.
If POTUS did something only for his reelection - no POTUS nor a member of Congress is free of this charge.
This got my attention:
"...Obama was meticulous in avoiding scandal and ethical conflicts. .."
If you only play to your base - it's easy to avoid a scandal. After all, Obama called Republicans his "enemies."
By the standards of "corrupt purpose" to influence elections - Obama should have been impeached. Just a couple of examples.
DACA is one.
Spending money not appropriated by Congress to support Obamacare is another one.
All done towards his reelection.
And the House may have even added his request to the Russian prime minister to "go easy until he is is reelected." to the charge.
All elected want to get reelected because the power that goes with it is, well - so intoxicational.
Indeed, it is a good exercise for folks to ask what would their opinion would be if Obama were on trial.
Or even ask themselves what they thought when Clinton was actually tried.
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I get what this is meant to reveal. There are flaws to the premise and they are as follows: You must also suppose in addition to thinking the president is doing a good job and you like his policies that both politicians are of the same moral character. I doubt we democrats would be so incensed if Trump wasn’t a serial liar who has said and done what even prior to being elected would have been unthinkable acts as a president. I am talking of course about his comments about gabbing a woman’s genitals, bragging about cheating on his taxes, and calling into a talk show to pretend he was his agent, to name only a few. These are moral flaws that should have signaled the man was unfit for office.
Also, our elections are no longer fair and our government no longer representative. The electoral college is broken and the senate gives too much weight to vacant states with people have little in common with the rest of us. Gerrymandering by the GOP has created two different kinds of politicians — safe and unsafe seats putting in place politicians who can cater to their extreme supporters and corporate donors. And let’s not forget that the GOP stole a Supreme Court justice using the argument that there is an election right around the corner.
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Oh, give me a break! Let’s get real. If a Democrat had been occupying the White House and had engaged in a tiny fraction of what trump has done, the republicans in Congress would have been screaming for impeachment.
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I feel it all comes down to 1 word. ‘Integrity’. President Obama oozed integrity and trump can’t even read the word, let alone understand what it means.
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Let me offer a different individual whom many of us revered: Lance Armstrong. I wore the Livestrong bracelet for 5 years. I assumed the French hated him and were out to get him because he won and wasn't French. One of my friends told me Armstrong was using stuff they couldn't test for. It wasn't until so much evidence came forward from so many people (and books like Wheelmen, where I read definitely about blood doping in the bus) that I realized that the guy I admired cheated his way through 7 winning TdFs. All the years and stages and wins I saw had the taint of drugs. But he did it to win, and reportedly has no regrets.
I needed convincing evidence, and my bar was higher than the French bar, because I didn't want to believe otherwise. That's sort of why evidence matters. Armstrong got away with this for years by force of personality. Keeping more evidence out of the trial allows Republican Senators to wear their red MAGA hats. With Armstrong, it was blood doping; with the Senate, it's just a lot of dopes.
Armstrong's avoiding Josef Beloki's crash in 2003, however, showed the quickest thinking and best riding I ever saw. Without drugs, he would have been middle of the pack, but what a pack to be part of.
3
I know this much about how Cass Sunstein's thought experiment would play out. If Barack Obama had perpetrated the same acts Donald Trump did, Bernie Sanders would be calling for his impeachment and removal from office, and probably in response the hatchet folks of the corporatist wing of the Democratic Party would mobilize into action to accuse Senator Sanders of being a traitor to progressive causes and imply that he's a racist. I say this not as a Bernie bro but just because I know that Sanders is a man of principle, even if I disagree with him on some issues.
Of course, if we did let this hypothetical situation play out and President Obama was convicted and removed from office, then we'd be left with President Joe Biden. I'll leave it to each Democrat to gauge how horrifying a scenario that would be.
Oh, and a note to Nick Kristof.
In trying to answer Sunstein's question yourself, you flirt with some cheap, lazy cynicism, some easy what-aboutism and both-side-ism.
Maybe that scores you some points for "fairness." But let's keep one thing in mind. A functioning representative democracy requires things like intellectual honesty, shame, a sense of fair play, and a willingness to lose fair and square rather than win at all costs. We already know that the Republicans, short of a willingness to resort to violence, have lost such qualities. The only hope for our nation is that Democrats, or enough of them, have not.
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Basically, what these thought experiments come down to is, when contemplating matters of proper governmental behavior partisanship makes hypocrites of many.
But some are more hypocritical than others. And most of those have an "R" attached to their affiliations.
1
So much about Trump and his being our President relates to Obama. Trump clearly cannot tolerate his inferiority to his predecessor. That motivates some of his many irrational policy decisions.
And Trump's support is rooted, among other things, in a sleazy backlash of racism against Obama having been (an excellent) President.
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I get the thought experiment, but it doesn't work. It's a false equivalency. Obama didn't get impeached because he didn't do anything like this. Had Trump run as a Democrat he wouldn't have made it past the bottom of that elevator.
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The better question is to consider ;;;;; impeacable offenses Obama actually committed:
1. The ACA was never designed to insure everyone because of the expense. So Obama chose not to cover 30 million working class Republicans.
2. To defray attention from those left uncovered, Obama attacked Republicans for not expanding Medicaid, glossing over the fact that the failure to expand affected 2 million, far shy of 30 million.
3. Obama punished working class Republicans by perpetuating the gap in Medicare drug coverage created by W.
4. Obama helped upscale Democrats at the expense of the poor by renewing the Bush tax cuts.
5. He also refrained from raising income tax rates on upscale Democrats, leaving rates at levels far lower than those in Europe.
6. He perpetuated tax breaks for upscale Democrats, especially the home mortgage deduction and favorable rates for 401(k)'s and 520 accounts.
7. He did not correct for state tax rates which are mostly flat and benefit upscale Democrats.
8. He did not challenge de facto housing segregation caused by upscale Democrats who buy expensive homes in white neighborhoods.
9. He did not challenge the practice of upscale Democrats using their illicit tax savings to pay for high-quality segregated schools for their kids.
In short, Obama subsidized upscale Democrats and penalized working class Republicans.
Possible impeachable offenses: fraud on the public and distorting law-making authority through partisanship.
1
One final thought experiment: play the Nixon tapes again. Would anything said there raise more than a condescending laugh from even the most “moderate” Republican Senator today?
Lincoln's most famous speech ended by saying that the Civil War, fought to crush treason, amounted to a sacrifice by citizens of the Union motivated by hope that "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
That hope is dying before our eyes.
1
The right way to think about this, definitely.
I’d add: If Trump had gotten away with it, Zelensky’s presidency would have been sabotaged from the beginning. It would have undermined him as a reformer, turned Ukrainian voters’ hopes for his battling corruption into dust, and emboldened Russia.
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Yes, Clinton should of resigned; he left a stain on everything he stood for. If evidence showed that Obama tried to cheat in an election (hard for me to conceive of, I admit) I would have supported his impeachment. Presidents are not the policy, and owe a debt to the trust their supporters place in them. The very notion that one might turn a blind eye to a leader's acts of bad faith is in itself authoritarian.
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'I'll have more flexibility after election"
... In other words, "keep things quiet so I can get little election help and I'll repay you in due course."
That sure looks like a quid pro quo to me.
2
Sorry, but your "thought experiments" don't require much thought.
First, on the basis of their historical (hysterical?) behavior, were this Obama and not Trump - or really any Democrat - the Republicans would be howling for blood, and given they controlled Congress for two years after the election, would have most certainly succeeded in impeaching and removing the Democrat.
Second, while you're probably right that a lot of Democrats now calling for impeachment would oppose it were it a Democrat, a great many Democrats would in fact support impeachment for similar criminal behavior as Trump has committed. This is one of the chief differences between Democrats and Republicans: Democrats are multi-factional; Republicans are monolithic.
Third, your hypothetical scenario where Trump is blackmailed for illegal personal favors performed on his behalf, is I believe already the case. Look at his actions regarding Russia, where he has gone against our longstanding, bi-partisan opposition to Russian actions, and done things that have helped the Russian cause. THIS is the "quid pro quo" that needs to be investigated fully, without stonewalling and obstruction permitted by Trump.
In short, anyone who pauses at all to give thought, understands that we have a corrupt, and perhaps, traitorous President.
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