In Huawei Battle, China Threatens Germany ‘Where It Hurts’: Automakers

VW, Daimler and BMW sell more cars in China than anywhere else and many already cooperate with Huawei — a dependency Beijing is not shy to exploit.

Comments: 219

  1. Have to agree with the United States ambassador, Richard Grenell, who said: “There is no moral equivalency between China and the United States and anyone suggesting it ignores history — and is bound to repeat it.” China never invade another country since the founding of the People's Republic in 1949. It never assassinate officials of another nation. It never conducted regime change. The list is long. Edward Snowden's disclosure revealed how USA spied around the globe. The main point Germany's Peter Altmaier did not explicitly mention is that American spies do not want to give up their current commanding access to spy on other nations through the 3G/4G structure. The accuser of Huawei is actually the party with dubious track record.

  2. @Observer No, China invaded Tibet in 1950, increasing their territory by 25%, and currently threatens to conquer Taiwan. Additionally, China also commits genocide against the Uighur people and has been using debt trap diplomacy to spread its influence across the planet.

  3. @Observer There are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of China based on its track record. It launched a surveillance state targeting its own people and placed one million Muslims in internment camps. And it used technological advantages to steal intellectual property from foreign companies.

  4. @Observer Tibetans would disagree with your comment. The Vietnamese would also disagree. The Indians would disagree. The Taiwanese, menaced by The People's Republic for decades would disagree. Uighurs currently facing cultural genocide at the hands of the Chinese would disagree.

  5. The problem here is that once the US completely weaponized its economy under Trump, there is absolutely no argument for China not doing the same. The US reneged on the Iran nuclear deal and then used its dominance in international finance to blackmail and threaten its allies into upholding its ruinous policies. It has used its economic clout to blackmail and brutalize Canada and Mexico, all the while tearing up trade treaties, norms and international law. And, of course, it has tried to blackmail its allies into supporting its war against Huawei and China. After the US opened the door on this kind of exaggerated economic coercion, there is no longer any argument for China not doing the same and using all the tools the US has made available to it to fight back. Ultimately, the US attempt to tank Huawei has to do with the US trying to hold onto its dominant role in the world system - a role it has proven, time and again, it is too irresponsible and untrustworthy to have.

  6. @Shaun Narine : The writer ,Shaun , is worried about America being "irresponsible and untrustworthy " . You would want to see the havoc the Dragon can play on world economies . Americans are egoistic and haughty but not merciless .

  7. @arun kothari Like when they drone strike people and conducting extraterritorial killings? Nah...they are not merciless.

  8. only problem with this premise though is that China has been using extortion long before Trump went on stage. We Taiwanese were classic victims of barred from internatinal stages or joining organization such as WHO. China merely export that means further around the world when Xi Jingping became the ruler

  9. Since the sticking point seemingly is Chinese law requiring Chinese companies to cooperate with the Chinese government on demand, I wonder why leaders like Ms. Merkel and Mr. Trump haven't made a request to Xi Jinping to change that particular law. I don't suppose it would make much difference in any case, the Chinese government has made it clear that it intends to operate on a medieval level.

  10. @R Leighton : The Chinese can never be trusted to honor their own laws when it comes to their self interest . They can easily squeeze Huawei's arm to toe its political mandate . The Chinese have cheated and stolen from Western companies of technology that these companies were forced to share . This writing is on the wall , if any Western/European government can bother to ponder .

  11. Huawei has been watched and studied by the media and government agencies in this country for more than a decade. What evidence of wrongdoing has been turned up? The only evidence is that it is POSSIBLY pressured and influenced by the Chinese government in the future. How can that be a piece of evidence in the country of the rule of law? Why won't the US government just let the best technology win? I thought market competition is what we taught the Chinese and still want the Chinese to learn from us (see the new trade agreement) .

  12. Because the Chinese communists and authoritarians could be building back doors and kill switches into the electronics that are now forming the backbone of national economies. Some things, like national security and freedom, are more important than money. Would we trust the Chinese or Russians to build weapons for the US military? No, we would not. Economic power can be wielded in a way that is just as devastating as military might.

  13. Germany is the strongest country in Europe, which perfectly illustrates exactly how weak Europe is in the present day. Either the EU figures out how to compete with both China and the US on the world stage, or they will just be relegated to proxy players in the economic battle between the two, buffeted by the whims of Chinese and American leaders alike with no agency of their own.

  14. @Andy EU can not figure out a solution to an impossible problem. Remember that it is not only China and Trump that is attacking Europe (yes, he openly supports the Brexit and other movements that aim to disband EU), it is also Putin and Erdogan. Slightly in the background, Bolsonero pounds his chest and ignore the EU, again supported by Trump. When the EU falls, Democracy will fall. When Democracy falls, all hope of finding unity to solve the climate crisis and prevent the general destruction of the Earth. This should be the time when Humanity stands up and say "let's fix this". Instead, it is Greed that rises and says "how can I benefit from the crisis". It is becoming increasingly difficult to be an optimist.

  15. @Andy Article mentions Nokia and Ericsson, so technology wise Europe is not weak. What they don't have is burgeoning market for their goods. They depend on USA/China for their exports & these countries have started blackmailing them for the access to those markets. Europe is in difficult position because they don't have a USP which they can leverage and it is union of various countries with different priorities.

  16. @Saket most of the industrial technology which will drive industry 4.0 is European...Airbus is about to overtake Boeing on a more permanent basis thanks to low US standards, has 5G champions, luxury consumer goods, a larger auto industry and more integrated manufacturing chains. Where Europe falls behind is in military exports (a key US one), online consumer (Google, FB, Amazon, etc), medical devices (though many are made in europe by US firms), pharma/biotech (see previous comment) and Shale oils and gases. See the complimentarity on both? Neither though has commanding positions on wind, pv, battery, cheap consumer electronics that China has. But China doesn't have much of what the US and Europe have...and food or energy to support its growing needs. Either can threaten the other but in the end they now all need each other to grow so threats are fine. But as both the US and China have now found out, global trade and financial reality hurts aggressive actors equally...oh and and bureaucrats and politicians get canned when they mess up these things.

  17. If I feared being targeted for theft I would not go out of business. I would take necessary precautions.

  18. It's not surprising that Europeans would have difficulty taking a strong stand against working with Huawei. The US is several years ahead on this issue. And it has more to lose. I am grateful this president is shining a spotlight on China's trade and intellectual theft practices. Long overdue.

  19. You've excluded from this article some hard truths: that Huawei 5g technology actually does contain backdoors that can be exploited, and that we now know that Chinese companies must cooperate with the state. Instead, you've framed the article as "the U.S. government believes.." This is not the full factual story needed for this piece.

  20. Seems like every technology has 'backdoor' and many states force the companies to cooperate. As Snowden showed the US is not an exception.

  21. @Omar Ghaffar can you substantiate the claim that Huawei 5G network has backdoor? Where is your source?

  22. @Omar Ghaffar I've found that most reporting is simply a summary of press releases or just he-said-she-said. "So-and-so says x while such-and-such says y," isn't reporting, it's just repeating.

  23. The Chinese Ambassador says that if Germany were to exclude Chinese companies from the German market, there will be consequences. No mention of either Huawei or the German car industry. Have the Chinese actually explicitly stated there will be consequences for the German car industry? Given the importance of the German car industry in China as both an economic (manufacturing) and technological player, it‘s hard to imagine that the Chinese will punish it because it would likely impact negatively in China.

  24. After they force the Germans to accept Huawei, the Chinese will then force them out of the local auto market by building and selling more, better-quality domestic vehicles, using stolen Western auto making technology. At that point, the Germans will be left with the worst of both worlds. This is how the Chinese work.

  25. That is how market works. Germany excludes Chinese products from its market, China does the same with German products. How unfair is it?

  26. @LIChef Also since Huawei will own the 5G infra it will difficult for Germany to retaliate since changing infrastructure vendor is not easy (financially it would be an extremely difficult decision).

  27. We hear many, many stories about how the Trump administration is out to have Huawei excluded western 5G cell networks. Firstly, this anti-Huawei stance far preceded Trump. What would be instructive would be some investigative coverage of how Huawei operates and has operated to make technological advances and break into carriers in Europe and the U.K., all throughout Africa and beyond. There has been intellectual property "appropriation" on an industrial scale. There have been deals made that are what one Huawei official once described to me in a meeting in Germany as a "three way relationship." In many cases, my research has seen several deals where the installation of Huawei kit in an African country has been paid for with agreements that have allowed China into the country to receive access to natural resources or other commodities produced by the country - like food ingredients not found in China. These deals are notable for one thing - Huawei isn't banking copper or other minerals. The exchanges are directly benefitting China. What this demonstrates is that Huawei is a direct extension of the Chinese government. Thus, the question of the use of Huawei in any communications network must be asked with vigor. China has tried to silence critics beyond its borders, taking on citizens of the USA and the EU for speaking out. The NYT itself has recently reported on Chinese mass surveillance .Without Huawei networking equipment that spying. would be impossible.

  28. Cave to Beijing or they freeze out your auto manufacturers? Can just say it plainly: do what China wants or suffer the consequences. Not hard to see where this ends with Merkel in charge.

  29. @GregP Ho Ho Ho. And cave in to Trump or face the consequences? What is the difference? Trump has had it in for Germany all along - his inferiority complex and all being the driver.

  30. @Don F I would not recommend dancing to President Trump's tune. It's ugly and truly unfortunate. Having said that, he is an aberration and not reflective of America as a whole. America remains a partner of Germany and is committed to freedom.

  31. @Don F Trump’s had it in for Germany? Please. German anti-Americanism among the public, in the media, and the political class is never far below the surface. Anything Trump does is a reaction to decades of German contempt.

  32. Each country pursues its own interests independently. There are no permanent friends among nations and there is only common interest while it lasts. The US exploits her mighty military through their gunboat diplomacy by invading other countries(Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Nicaragua and etc) or clandestine CIA operation for regimen changes(Iran, Argentina, Chile and etc.); whereas China is exploiting her huge market access and superior technology in Haiwei. The winner between gun and butter will determine the hegemon of this century.

  33. If Europe doesn't stand up to trump now, they will find it impossible later. trump just gets more and more brazen and each time he gets his way, he pushes the envelope a little further. Europe is helping against Iran when the US is the real culprit but they are terrified of tariffs.

  34. @Bill --- North Korea is a great example. Trump's bravado, bluster and threats turned to "we fell in love" when North Korea stood up to him and called his bluff!

  35. What a joke. The USA is using every possible lever there is to force Europe into dependency on the USA. Intelligence, Gas, Tarrifs etc. This is all about business and not about security. The biggest threat to USA security sits in the White House - not in Peking or Moscow. The biggest threat to Gernan technology is spying by our wonderful allies in the USA, who have zero respect for Patents not Copyrights that are not their own. The Chinese have good teachers. The USA has moved itself into the situation it is in, and in the Trump-temper-tantrum mode of the US politics, trying to undo decades of allowing cheaper Chinese exports and production to overtake your manufacturing, you now want to reverse this on the backs of your so-called Allies. We know we need to be careful all the time with the Chinese. Just as much of a problem are our so-called Allies in London and Washington.

  36. @Don F I think it’s critically important that Europe, especially Germany, go its own way in defense and economics. It’s dying demographically and is in the process of importing a vast number of people from an alien culture. The US should basically leave Europe to itself and, considering the damage Europe has done to the world through its wars and political ideologies over the past two centuries, it would be in the world’s best interest if Europe sat out the next two hundred years.

  37. The Chinese have been watching and learning the decadent ways of the West since Nixon opened the flood gates to the world of commerce to them. They have no scruples and are slowly turning Western businesses into their unwilling vassals thru blackmail and one sided trade practices. 5k will be be the last nail in the coffin that was Free Trade for all... in the West that is.

  38. '“There is no moral equivalency between China and the United States and anyone suggesting it ignores history — and is bound to repeat it,” Mr. Grenell said.' The US moral superiority complex is simply a selfserving narrative for local consumption. No one outside the US believes this, and is clearly an infantile argument to define foreign policy.

  39. @Alex RE I don't remember China lying it's way into an invasion and occupation of a ME nation recently.

  40. @Alex RE --- Absolutely right!

  41. @Alex RE The sad part is, that Grenell believes what he says - as do so many other USAmericans.

  42. The article says that using Nokia or Ericcson may set the project back a few years. What are the consequences of that? Is 5G really so transformative that countries need to compromise their security to finish it quickly? Also Germany's certification process is just a pledge not to spy??? That seems crazy...

  43. China's threat is another clear indication of the great potential Chinese 5G networks to be spy tools for China. Dishonest business continues to be Chinese SOEs model. Germany and the world would do best to shun China entirely and let the Chinese government realize the effects of their own saying "pain is a great motivator". Without a world to sell to, Chinese government will change for the better or be overthrown.

  44. @Jim --- more of the usual American propaganda and manufactured lies! "Without a world to sell to", what a quaint idea as if America is the world. For your sorely lack of real facts, China is a bigger trading partner than America in Asia, Africa, Central Europe, Middle East and, perhaps even Latin America. America's pain in the trade war is withheld from its citizens.

  45. This sounds as though the security standards need to be revised so that they're based on useful and verifiable technical metrics. Only a fool would trust Huawei without being able to verify what they were doing, but it would also be daft to exclude them based on nothing more than country of origin. Set a robust standard then choose from the firms willing and able to meet that standard. Ensure that a stringent verification process is built in and then follow it rigorously. Once all that's done, if Huawei ends up being the best provider then fair enough let them carry out the work under the appropriate security regime.

  46. @AngloAmericanCynic --- British Intelligence has concluded that the security risk Huawei's technology presents is manageable just like any other. America just cannot give up the fear mongering and lies to stop Huawei's growth in its track to buy time for America's tech companies to catch up.

  47. It's not an intelligence concern at all. NSA tapped Merkel for decades. I guess Huawei will make it difficult for NSA to do so again.

  48. China and its companies need to be treated in the fashion they treat foreign companies in their country. Huawei should turn over its intellectual property to German companies in return for access to the country; otherwise, the Germans should use European suppliers and pay the consequent price.

  49. @BayArea101 tRump was opposed to ZTE spying on American troops until China financed a tRump resort. Huaweii simply needs to finance a tRump resort in Germany and they'll both be golden.

  50. @BayArea101 There is no German company in that business. this is the reason Mercedes, VW team up with Huawei.

  51. @BayArea101 The Germans would be wise to use European partners as they share a similar value system and operate under the same legal standards. While the European suppliers may come with a higher price, what price does one place on freedom and integrity?

  52. This was the inevitable result of Trump abandoning the EU. It was also inevitable that Trump could win his trade war without the EU. He might have won a small battle, but while the USA is reducing its influence, China is expanding theirs. Europe is an easy target without the US and can be attacked swiftly. The war against the USA... they can bide their time. America First is basically the same as America Alone.

  53. The US has been spreading a bunch of outright lies about Huawei. The completely false allegations are manufactured and designed to hurt the business of Huawei, a legitimate Chinese telecom giant. There is no truth whatsoever that Huawei represents any security risk. It's completely made up from the start. Germany is asking the right questions: actually what is the problem with Huawei? There is none. Just a bunch of vile lies spread by China-haters in Washington trying to prevent a legitimate company to operate freely.

  54. @Blue Zone Huawei's existence is inextricably entwined with the Chinese government. As such, it presents a substantial security risk. All Chinese companies, are obligated by Chinese law, to provide material support and allegiance, as required, to the Chinese Communist Government.

  55. @Blue Zone wrote "...The completely false allegations are manufactured and designed to hurt the business of Huawei, a legitimate Chinese telecom giant. There is no truth whatsoever that Huawei represents any security risk..." Not ture. You're repeating the propaganda of the Chinese Communist Regime. Here are couple links to tell you what Huawei is : Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise

  56. @Blue Zone Oh I hate to burst your bubble about poor little innocent Huawei. They got their start after ripping off the product blueprints initially from Cisco. And let's not forget that this is a company whose rot starts at the very top. How about the CFO Meng Wanzhou who is presently under house arrest in Vancouver, BC, where she is charged with bank fraud and accused of misleading the bank HSBC about Huawei Technologies’ business in Iran.

  57. "A driverless Volkswagen van" sounds like the title of a doomsday documentary about the state of world leadership.

  58. @Emory --- want to go back to living in caves and hunting for food?

  59. Germany has put itself in a very weak position with both China and Russia. This is Merkle's legacy and why Germany is an unreliable ally who will compromise the security of the USA for German auto worker's jobs. Germany refuses to meet their NATO obligations and snubbed the USA's natural gas for Putin's gas. One seriously has to wonder what is going on behind the German voter's backs.

  60. @Tammy Does it really need explaining why Germany has not built a powerful army? And why there’s historically been significant American troop presence? Without energy export to the EU, the Russian economy would collapse. The EU needs that leverage for its own safety.

  61. @Tammy --- Germany need to be independent from American interference! Quit following American dictate. Buy America's more expensive oil, don't buy Russian oil, don't buy Iranian oil, don't buy Huawei products, spend more on your military, don't subsidize Airbus (it is okay subsidizing Boeing), don't subsidize your farmers ( America just gave U.S. $28 billion to its farmers). Does America look at Germany as a sovereign country or a satellite state??????

  62. @Tammy Why is this comment full of factual inaccuracies a Times Pick? First off, Germany is not the 51st state. It may indeed want to look after auto workers' jobs and the workers in many, many satellite industries. So what? Second, Germany is not an unreliable ally, the bullying US, with Trump changing tactics on a whim, is the unreliable partner here. As the article does a good job explaining, this has much to do with why Germany is in the position they are in. The US can't be trusted and China is, well, China. Third, it is not possible to "snub" natural gas — per the vagaries of capitalist market systems (typically Americans are big fans of those!), gas will be bought where it is convenient and decently priced. Fourth, Germany is working on getting its NATO contributions up, but that's not the salient point. The point is that all these American bases are in Germany in the first place because the US wanted them there for its own strategic interests. These are now being held against Germany and the rest of the EU like its their fault, which is a real laugh.

  63. If the US had actually invested in research and development, and had competitive 5G products for the global market, is there really ANY doubt that the NSA and CIA would NOT be able to snoop on them, and that we would NOT see political pressure from the likes of Trump or Barr for a Cisco or a Juniper to “cooperate” with their administration on investigations? Such hypocrisy.

  64. @David It's doubtful the NSA and CIA would be knocking on citizen's doors to help them correct improper speech, or helping running internment camps.

  65. @David what are you implying? Since now the US doesn’t have the technology to compete with the Chinese, let them spy on us? This suggestion is as ridiculous as it gets.

  66. @David -- Huawei buys all of its chips and modems from Qualcomm, who is creating most of the 5G tech for mobile and IOT. Huawei would have to imbed spying tech on top of what's already made, which they may be doing. But the tech comes from the US.

  67. There is a simple solution for the Germans. Go with Huawei with the understanding that Huawei will share any intelligence gathered by its systems. Most likely the Chinese, or anyone else with the resources, will be able to hack the 5G network no matter who builds it. If we are talking only about punishing a Chinese business to gain favor with the US govt, well that is absurd. The Berlin airlift happened a long time ago. And you have to wonder if the US would even do it again today. As for security guarantees, perhaps the Chinese would take over Germany’s security guarantees if it came to it.

  68. @Ed --- Huawei has opened its source code to all to check its network for spyware. NOT ONE SINGLE American company has offered to do the same. Draw your own conclusion, what that means.

  69. @Ed That seems like a fairly typical German attitude. It's been only 3 years since the Merkel-Obama "love fest" yet you can't manage to see beyond Trump. Germany is arguably more mercenary than any other world country. Its sole interest is business. It has no interest in doing anything that isn't going to sell more cars or machine tools. Trump is a moron, but he isn't necessarily wrong that Germany wants to cozy up to Russia and China while not doing anything to support NATO and its traditional alliances.

  70. @kay hong What a lie. The Brit GCHQ can't even tell if the versions of source they can get are what's being used by Huawei in the field. Thus their final report and conclusion of no guarantee that Huawei's gear can be securely managed.

  71. I wish for a credible news organization to evaluate the US Govt claims that Huawei may embed spying software into their telephone network equipment. Is this a credible threat or an over-reaction, readers really have no idea. Also would be interesting to know the history and context - have other governments (including ours) embedded spy software in equipment sold to other countries?

  72. @Scott Newton --- looks to me like you have not heard of Edward Snowden. America used American tech companies to spy on its citizens and foreign leaders, this is a proven fact! On the other hand, Huawei has been in business for 30 years worldwide and NOT a single reported case of spying!

  73. @Scott Newton , Britain has done thorough study and found no backdoor for espionage. What USA is doing amount to propaganda and putting pressure, rather than evidence, to shun Huawei. Simply, USA doesn't want Chinese tech companies to dominate. Huawei is the first with 5G gear and European companies still don't offer. It is another evidence that Chinese companies can innovate. Stealing technology doesn't make you first in the market.

  74. @Scott Newton There is no credible evidence that Huawei has ever spied on anyone. If there was, the NYT loves anti-China pieces and would broadcast it. Search the NYT archives and see if you can find anything. The NSA did hack Huawei though.

  75. Yes, but, Climate Change! That’s the elephant in the room. All car manufacturers whether German, American, Japanese, French, need to put their brains to work to eliminate cars altogether. We are all in an existential crisis here on planet Earth. If you need a reminder, look at Australia’s dying oceans and catastrophic fires. Trusting China is never a good idea, but..... Selling more cars in China is simply suicidal.

  76. It is as simple as who do I want spying on me - china or usa. But since trump has declared economic war on the rest of the world, I would pick the less menacing, aggressive country....

  77. Cutting emissions is just an illusion. German car makers eg VW know exactly about that. Chinese pretend not knowing and manufacture even worst cars. Less cars and enco-friendly transport. That is indeed another illusion.

  78. So the EU should start banning Chinese goods and see how well the communists do when the Chinese economy tanks. Once growth stalls and they can’t deliver they’re all going to end up swinging at the end of a rope

  79. @Doug K --- China has a market of 1.5 billion plus the Asian, African, Middle East and Latin American markets. Somehow, you see no adverse consequences to the EU, very American like! Besides, Italy, Spain, Greece and many others in Central Europe are definitely not ready to participate in your futile game of benefiting America ONLY!

  80. @kay hong wrote "...China has a market of 1.5 billion plus the Asian, African, Middle East and Latin American markets." You need to make a distinction between China and the Chinese Communist Regime. If you asked mainland Chinese if they would have a magical free pass live in the US or Canada, you would have a real immigration problem for Trump--it would be hundreds of millions, once the experience sunk in of uncensored internet and relative freedom from being spied on 24/7... Well, you're living in Canada. I get it: supporting the Communist China is your job. What a good example of voting with your feet!

  81. This is reason to not buy a German car. I wouldn't buy an American car if it used Huawei technology either. It supports a vision for the future (nationalism, prohibition of free speech and press) that I disagree with.

  82. "One key requirement would be to rule out state interference." Non-state spies, such as Google and Facebook, worry me as much as state-based ones. Only in the US are huge corporations given a pass.

  83. I would suspect in a year or two, Tesla, which is heavily supported by the Chinese government will dominate the Chinese EV market with its Chinese built model 3s and Ys. This in itself will probably be a huge challenge for the German automakers without getting on the wrong side of the Chinese over Huawei.

  84. When Nixon went to China, the theory was that opening Chinese markets would gradually cause China to become more like western democracies. Instead, it's caused western democracies to become more like China.

  85. @Andrew Roberts When Communist China became "The China", the US government dropped Taiwan, the only "China" worldwide since 1945; never asked the Taiwanese what they wanted: independence, back to Japan, etc. Nixon had the power to negotiate with the communists and allow Taiwanese to choose their future. He didn't. This is how the US government acts. Drops allies if no longer useful, rewards and supports anyone else if advantageous to US interests. Meanwhile trust in US ethical values, friendship and more decreases everyday everywhere. Western democracies can't follow US policies as it was before.Sad and true.

  86. 5G, itself, is not something that should be looked at as inevitable. The extra speed will only benefit the largest internet providers, monopolistic companies that will try to push more content at us. For downloading just about anything, 4G is adequate. So why rush into this if there is a controversy about backdoor surveillance. The agreement that needs to be forged is how to fight global warming. Since the U.S. has abrogated its responsibility for the time being, and China is also a major holdout, Germany should be using its influence with China to reach an international agreement with China to begin serious action on climate change that other countries will sign on to. As a model, Germany and the EU are already leading on internet privacy in the GDPR, which California has adopted.

  87. The current Chinese government sees its relations with everyone else in zero sum terms. Its intent is that the rest of the world should have access to trade with China only on terms that leave China in a dominant position. While avoiding another period of foreign domination of China is an element in this strategy, it's also true that the current Chinese government wishes for the purposes of its own leadership, to engage with others, including its own citizens, only on authoritarian terms.

  88. German innovation has been non existent (only exception being SAP), a large share of their economy is dependent on the health of the auto industry, and even there they are falling behind Tesla. Europe is on its way to a stark future as China replaces its automotive workforce and other industrial production. The very global economy which made them rich is going to make them poor now. The US has laws friendly to a capitalist economy allowing for tech innovation, keeping its technology relevant as newer companies replace existing ones, this is what is keeping other countries at bay.

  89. @John — The automotive industry indeed is large in Germany and perhaps too large, however your assessment falls a bit short regarding lacking German ingenuity. Regardless of the industry Germany, like many top tier countries, manufacturers key components the world needs. And sometimes Germany works together with foreign nations, like China or Sweden in win/win situations. Regarding China, we in the west are more than aware that China has not become more humanistic in its actions over the years as we had hoped. Countries like Germany and the USA are knee deep business development with China, do its hard to just throw in the towel and retract all cooperation. This is why President Trump’s little squabble with China has been bad short term nut may be good long term. Regarding Sweden, Yesterday I put together a piece of furniture (closet) from that Swedish company that only uses pictures in its assembly descriptions. I don’t need to mention the name of the company, right? I was surprised that the furniture was “Made in Germany.” Since I live in Germany, I was happy about that because it meant more local jobs. A win/win situation. I believe any future with China will only continue to be win/win if China can find a way to be more humanistic and less paranoid and that will be a difficult task.

  90. This story is an excellent example of how life imitates art. Given the continued repression of religious groups, such as the Ughers, by the Chinese government and China’s territorial ambitions in Pacific seas, Europe should be questioning the long-term consequences of increased reliance on Chinese technology. “War with the Newts” by Karel Capek should be required reading by industrial and political leaders. The dire consequences of chasing Chinese market share by German automakers and allowing a single Chinese state-controlled company to dominate telecommunications systems throughout the West would then be obvious. It is unfortunate that the current US administration has alienated our allies and is using the threat of tariffs to influence their decisions. But this too will (hopefully) pass, while the ambitions of China to use technology to achieve world dominance will continue.

  91. @David G Ostrow, MD PhD Life imitating art, or the overlords controlling our simulation thinking "great idea!" (joke)? Trump is pushing the EU towards China but before him Obama did not really reach out either. The change is happening e.g. port of Piraeus, Volvo-Geely, the New Silk Road, etc. The EU has no choice at this point but to hedge their bets.

  92. Ask Hong Kong if China can be trusted.

  93. @M Davis Let's ask ME if the US can be trusted.

  94. Funny how this article fails to mention that there has never been any piece of evidence that Huawei spies on anyone. Ever. The ONLY spying ever found in connection with Huawei was done by the NSA, which hacked Huawei. See the NYT article. So the reason Europe deals with Huawei is, simply, because Huawei is more reliable and trustworthy than the United States. Ouch. The truth hurts, doesn’t it?

  95. How ironic that "communist" China is the largest player in worldwide capitalism-- showing both the best and worst of its attributes. What would Mao do?

  96. Are the cars going to be manufactured by Uighur laborers? Germany has recent experience in forced labor camps. Are they going to share this trade secret with the Fascist Party of China? We were told that trade with China would make them appreciate freedoms more. All it did was create a huge fiercely nationalistic upper class, with China biding its time and stealing all it can while it develops its military capability to match or exceed that of the US. And then it’s freedom over for Taiwan, Hong Kong and much of the Western world as China already exports its censorship via millions of students and workers in the West. Although Germany never had much freedom, so it’s understandable why they want to jump into bed with a fascist nation.

  97. @True Norwegian Well said

  98. We thought opening trade with China would make them more like us in the best ways. Instead, it has made us more like them, in all the worst ways.

  99. @True Norwegian — I guess “recent” for you is 75 years ago. Of course back then California (where you’re writing from) rounded up Japanese Americans and put them into camps, but didn’t kill them. And Norwegians had to apologize “recently” for what they did to their women who were just trying to survive by dating/marrying German soldiers during WW2. Back then Norway did not produce 2% of the world’s oil, so life there was way harder than today. Germany took on “recently” one million Syrians fleeing from war and anyone denying the Holocaust in Germany is sent to jail by law, so I am finding it quite hard to see your point as valid in any way. You appear to be upset because Germany is successful and that really is not a good reason at all; in fact it’s even two-faced because you’re writing from California, the state that sends China billions of dollars in business to make items like smart phones. Head shake, eye roll.

  100. America is telling Germany REAL American spying and espionage is somehow better than potential and unproved allegations of Chinese ones. Makes a lot of sense to advance "America First at untold costs to all others." Germany choose wisely.

  101. Big surprise! President Trump reportedly used a similar threat to get the UK, France, and Germany to fall in line behind his Iran policy. Now that the US has weaponized trade, we can expect to see more of this.

  102. Triple the tariffs if you must. The uber rich in China will buy the cars regardless. They can't help themselves. Audi, BMW and Porsche know this. Call their bluff.

  103. Germany depends on auto exports. It's largest export markets, roughly equal-sized, are China, the US and the UK. Struggling with changing consumer preferences and emissions scandals, German automakers are confronted by Brexit, the mad Trump and his tariff threats, and China's strong-arming on behalf of Huawei. All else being equal, Germans need to shore up at least one of those three markets. Brexit looks bound to happen in the messiest way possible; Trump is incorrigible and unpredictable. Strategically, that leaves China as the only realistic option. Germany is between a rock and a hard place.

  104. Maybe Huawei could supply technology so German auto companies could quit lying about emissions? And North American companies, too?

  105. “That, he said, was also an argument for giving the 5G contract to European companies like Nokia or Ericsson.” Why is this even a conversation? Who cares if it costs more and takes longer? Of course a European firm should build the network. What would China do, or for that matter, Trump?

  106. Of course there is no moral equivalence between China and the US. In the last 50 years or so, China has not bombed or invaded one single country. It also has not plotted coups or conducted assassinations of foreign leaders. You will currently not find Chinese soldiers in any foreign nation.

  107. @A Cynic That’s what you think.

  108. @A Cynic Convenient selection of a time frame but your attempt at moral equivalency is pathetically wrong. If we go back to the founding of the so-called ‘People’s Republic,’ their own government murdered north of 50 million of its own citizens under Mao, and their one child policy has resulted in millions of forced abortions over decades (mostly female fetuses). Chinese forces are currently stationed in Djibouti near the Horn of Africa, China invaded and bombed Vietnam in 1979, and China regularly threatens the freedom of Taiwan. Did we forget the Tiananmen Square slaughter of thousands in 1989, or what they’d like to do to Hong Kong today?

  109. @A Cynic you know knothing of Sun Tzu

  110. The Guardian is reporting today that the US threatened Europe with car tariffs in order to get the Europeans to accuse Iran of reneging on the nuclear deal. Presumably the US has already threatened Europe with car tariffs as well to block Huawei, but didn't get anywhere, because China is a more important market. Hence this article, complaining about the Chinese...

  111. For anyone who thinks that Huawei is politically and militarily neutral, I’d like to tell a story. When my friend’s dad was interviewing to be a professor in Beijing University, he met not with the University’s president but with the University’s “Party Leader”. The government is completely enmeshed in every aspect of China. The worry isn’t on whether China will spy on communications through Huawei. Our lines are thoroughly encrypted. The concern is that they can shut down channels across the continent simultaneously.

  112. "China... has become the biggest source of growth for Germany’s main carmakers..." Sure. What the article does not say is that Chinese law dictates that all components put in cars sold in China must be made in China. It is a not-so-subtle trick to hijack (steal) the supply chains and their know how. This is why the factories built by Tesla, Mercedes, GM, VW swan songs for technology about to switch sides. If Trump was serious about trade, he'd insist on total reciprocity. If China insists on moving the supply chains to China, the the US should insist on moving them to the US for high-tech products manufactured in China.

  113. '“Our only hope is to stick together as Europeans,” Mr. Röttgen said. That, he said, was also an argument for giving the 5G contract to European companies like Nokia or Ericsson. ' I like this. Just like Trump says and does, as it is US-first, so it should be EU-first, no brainer. Do not forget that China always thinks China-first. But then, I also respect the Chinese threat to hit where it hurts, they would be completely just to do that and kiss goodbye to BMW and Daimler etc. You can't have it both ways - to sell them something but not to buy from them. What you should not have done is to groom or help China into such a powerful economy but that water passed under the bridge long ago.

  114. Like many of the other commenters, I dislike President Trump and think his erratic behavior on trade has been harmful. However, he’s basically right on Huawei. The distinction between Chinese companies, like Huawei, and the Chinese government is very hazy. China does not recognize personal liberty whatsoever, so Huawei could easily be used to spy on users in Western countries. Yes, the current American surveillance state is too big. However, we have laws governing what information the government can request. Generally, a court or FISA court must approve a warrant to access information. Additionally, the American people can at any time elect people to change these laws to their liking. America is not perfect, but we are a representative democracy where lawmakers are accountable to the public. China is among the most repressive countries on earth.

  115. Unfortunately the American lawmakers are only accountable to the American public and not the German one. Many Americans cant imagine how much trust was lost when the german public found out that they had been constantly under surveillance by the NSA - which no American court had to approve as the constitutional rights dont apply to foreigners. Mr Grenell who behaves like some colonial governors is constantly interfering into interior politics and many germans wish he would be finally expelled. Unfortunately Merkel is indecisive and weak in a moment were Europe would need a more unified strong response towards the US and China and their nationalistic policies. The EU has still as much economical power as China and the US but no concept for the future.

  116. @Jacob I wonder how you can call the US a "representative democracy" when the same number of senators represent Wyoming (population about 570,000) as represent California (population about 4,800,000). One Wyoming resident is worth about 80 California residents. One California resident is worth the toe of a Wyoming resident. And then there is the absolutely ridiculous Electoral College . . . .

  117. The EU is struggling with the disadvantages of being the last good faith world player: - Its diplomacy and free trade approach (openings and sanctions) to world policy seems like a 20th century anachronism now. It's still somewhat successful with Russia, whose economy depends heavily on energy export to the EU, but mostly everyone trades now without questions asked (e.g. Saudi Arabia). - Additionally and consequently, its underdeveloped military industry forces its countries to buy American (e.g. F35) to keep NATO together. - Its European Green Deal will hurt own factories as American and Asian countries will still expect their products, produced with dirty energy and emissions, to be sold on world markets including the EU's, without additional penalty. - Its somewhat successful global trade strategy, making products of very high quality that low wage countries' can't achieve yet, is reaching its limits. - Its public services and healthcare are unaffordable in many of its countries, who can't seem to balance the books anymore with an aging population. And yet, we need the EU more than ever to keep showing us that an alternative to American vulture capitalism is possible. Countries like Germany, the Netherlands and the Nordics show that even in a global trade world it is still possible to reach full employment and have a great society with excellent infrastructure and public services. Without it, Americans would believe their lives are great and Republicans know it.

  118. @Liz, And I am personally deeply grateful to the nations of the EU for their eternal dedication to so lovingly caring for the graves of the 130,000 service members buried in their soil.

  119. China knows full well, that it can NEVER win a military war with the West. But China is waging Economic Warfare against the West. In the name of Capitalism, the West is conceding one battle after another.

  120. @Steve According to RAND Corp's simulations, China routinely defeats US in WESTPAC, specifically around Taiwan.

  121. @Steve: Our most sophisticated adversaries, like China and Russia, know full well that dominance over the United States will not come from spending trillions of dollars on military hardware and personnel — as the United States has done over the past few decades. For very little money, and without firing a shot, Putin and his minions already have sent this country and the Western alliance into a tailspin of self-defeating, self-destructive dissension and public policy. China has quickly learned to leverage Western capitalism’s single-minded focus on profit to weaken our resistance to its growing political and economic power. While we squander $730 billion a year on a bloated, wasteful, erratically utilized military, China devotes similar resources to subsidizing the development and growth of next-gen technology and infrastructure. While the United States experiences growing anarchy and irrational government policy as a result of its prevailing Wild West, gun-toting, bible-thumping, South shall rise again mythos, China is building a conformist surveillance state. Those tinker toy soldiers in Charlottesville and the bellowing rally goers in their red MAGA hats are the best thing that ever happened to our adversaries in the competition for global dominance. Those chumps had better start learning to speak a bit of Chinese. We’re all gonna need to learn the language soon enough.

  122. Why aren’t the Europeans applying their own privacy standards to auto electronics? Have they trusted Facebook privacy promises? If any system is capable of collecting and transmitting personal data, the driver should be protected. Since Huawei is in bed with the Chinese Communist Party, they need particularly close scrutiny, but the fundamental question remains the same, “Who should be allowed access to our driving data?” By making the issue about government AND corporate access to the data, the Germans can allow the Chinese to save face. Following our bellicose approach to trade, the US can phase in import restrictions against autos with Chinese electronics that can track & transmit driver data. The Germans won’t like it, but they also understand all their assets and business in China can disappear at the whim of the Party. They may sell more cars in China, the business has much more risk.

  123. "Chinese consumer preferences, and Chinese government policies, increasingly determine what models the carmakers build and what kind of technology they develop." I guess mega corporations with no loyalty to their nation of origin know better what is good for people. After all, we entrusted US industry to global corporations and they did a wonderful job in abandoning the US. I suspect our leaders envy and fear China because they are doing a much better job of governing that the "best democracy money can buy."

  124. Huawei's senior management is made up of former Chinese military officers. It should be clear what the role of that company is in the eyes of the government, which as a long history of industrial and political espionage. Much of China's competitiveness is built on theft of IP from the West. If anyone thinks Huawei is a harmless service and product provider like any of its competition, good luck to you. The Germans, who arguable live from exports more than any other country, should be more concerned than anyone about the risks to their future.

  125. As cars become rolling connected heaps of sensors and computers, the last thing we should open the floodgates to is stuffing them full of Chinese electronics than they already are. We have no reasonably assumed right to privacy on a bus or subway, so those concerns are misplaced. We do, however, have such concerns about our private cars, even if some questionable people want to make them in China and treat them like they are cell phones at the mercy of a "software update" as the age from, pardon the pun, on high.

  126. Is this technology even safe? I have concerns about dosing myself with even more radiation, harmful waves, and toxins.

  127. The important thing to keep in mind is that any economic gain with China is likely to be in the short term. They are totally committed to having their domestic industries become paramount and expand into global dominance. It's a state sponsored endeavor and state control of all aspects of life is considered necessary to achieve it. Is it coming down to 'them or us'? I wouldn't cooperate in any way whatsoever.

  128. @John Brady No more than any American company, or the US government, or Boeing which planted dozens of bugs in a 767 they sold to China for a presidential aircraft. If American companies want to freeze out Hawei its because they can't compete.

  129. Speaking of Huawei, does any body remember the two Canadians, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor who have been rotting away in a Chinese prison in retaliation for the arrest of Huawei executive on behalf of the United States?

  130. Germany should tell Communist China and its errand boy, Huawei, to pound sand. The day after China stops imports of German cars, there will be a remarkable increase of German cars being imported to Vietnam and Malaysia, and the Chinese will desperately import the German cars from there.

  131. Luxury autos have self driving and internet connectivity these days. Millions of German autos on the roads of China that may have potential backdoors in their self driving capabilities. What’s there to say that the Germans don’t turn them into potential weapons? Sounds stupid? Sure. But when you get into a mud slinging contest with no evidence to backup the claims, then you only have yourself to blame if key industries are harmed. Finally, let’s not forget which country tapped Merkel’s phone...

  132. @Sean --- Germans are not Americans. Even a simple Chinese app like Tik Tok is considered a national security threat. America is becoming a Banana Republic.

  133. china with a pop of 1 billion plus should be building their own EVs for transportation purposes. The Germans have the EU as purchasers of their EVs (no more ICE please). Germany can export bratwurst made with imported pork from China. Its silly to transport cars from Europe to China: waist of energy, too bulky, too heavy, lousy gas mileage, fake engineering.

  134. Germany is unable to build 5G networks...time to pay up for monthlong vacations, retirement at 62, 18month baby leave etc - quasi socialism supported by low Euro exchange rates.

  135. Also, there's the fact that China is a fascist dictatorship (by "fascist" I mean the national combination of socialism, capitalism, and militarism).

  136. The 5G infrastructure our carriers are – only now, and only begrudgingly – building out is utter toy, compared to what folks have in mind to integrate ground-based transportation and communication… Further, long before there is fully-autonomous driving anywhere, there’re going to be leaders in more fully assisted driving, in region-scale or nation-scale pockets of tech leadership… Back when we actually had factories that actually made things, German industry produced a disproportionate share of the hard-tech tooling needed to make those factories operate… They still do… Well – guess who’s buying many more of these sorts of tools today, than are we… As well as – this article mentions – lots of German cars… Back to 5G – wouldn’t surprise to see Germany and China bilaterally develop some IT standards, toward the ends mentioned above… Forgive the bluntness – but network security should not be the most important objective for a network… It should be part of its essence… The most important objective for a network is to transform the industrial or societal domain into which it will be introduced… Sound abstract??? “…vice president of Nokia’s multimedia group in North America, disagreed with the assertion that the iPhone would bring fundamental change to the market. He said Nokia already sold high-end phones with a wide range of functions… “…The iPhone, he argued “is an evolution of the status quo.”…

  137. China commits atrocities using technology. Many companies are implicated in their concentration camp scheme against the Uigars. China has a law that all tech companies have to aid its intelligence services. Therefore, it doesn't matter what huawei says, if they are operating under China's system they are a de facto arm of their spy agencies, just like any company. We should just pass a law that says companies are not allowed to do business in the west if they are subservient to foreign spy operations. Full stop. It's one thing to cooperate when facing a subpoena for evidence of a crime etc, another thing all together to be perpetually required to work with spy agencies. They deserve no pity.

  138. @Rob --- any thing new in the propaganda department? Same old, same old ----

  139. Why would trust the Russians or the Chinese? I would not in any situation.

  140. Good for China. Germany has been of no help to America.

  141. This will be a close call. Trump's ham-fisted EU policy - tariffs, threats, gratuitous insults, etc. -- may tip the decision in China's favor.

  142. Western Europe, have always been cowards. The UK is pushed around by Russia (agter how many were assassinated on UK soil) The large Islamic populations are more aggressive. THe US pushes them around. China will get the contract. Western Europe always love pointing the finger at the US that they have better human rights yet they will allow spyware onto these vehicles. They pointed their fingers at the USA in the past for not adopting diesel cars....I've been to Europe many times, did they not notice the diesel soot that caked their landmarks, and then low and behold, the diesel scandal. Western Europe will always be pushed around anyone and everyone.

  143. @Art Singh Didn't get your Schengen visa renewed? Not to fret the Modimobile will soon be introduced into the European market.

  144. @Art Singh --- the EU is doing what others do --- looking after its own self interests! What's wrong with that?

  145. That's the different between US and China. US informs other countries to watch out the danger ahead but do not retaliate if they don't. China won't inform anything but just retaliate if other countries don't cooperate with Beijing. Have you seen China retaliate Australia, Sweden, Norway, Philippine, Taiwan, Japan, etc. do your research and then make your own judgement from there.

  146. “We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, determined by the immutable bylaws of business... One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit.” Paddy Chayefsky, ‘Network’ (1976).

  147. Well. US authorities actually did tap Merkel's phone. The US embassy in Berlin has some illegal construction on its roof to spy on German communication. And Trump just threatened Germany with 25% tariffs on cars if Germany doesn't abandon the Iran nuclear deal. China is a communist dictatorship and behaves accordingly. The USA are supposed to be a friend and a democracy but they are actually worse than China.

  148. @Ronald Grünebaum France once allied with America to spite England. Now Europe cautiously allies with China to spite America. Make whatever moral justifications you find Necessary, China’s rise in Europe occurred before trump. It’s a different day but the same geo politics I predict Europe will walk a fine line between USA and China but will choose neither Because of your commercial interest in both.

  149. Mr. Grenell is so far off in all of his quoted comments. Just the first as example: "The West should have a joint solution to 5G because we view the world the same way." This from the spokesman of a country that rejected European concerns over the Iraq war, chose to exit in the anti-nuke agreement with Iran despite Europeans' desire to adhere to it, and threatened a 25% tariff on cars from Germany, France and Britain if these countries didn't condemn Iran. Excuse me, Mr. Grenell, but we do not view the world the same way. Please do us a favor and go home. Signed, ex-US citizen

  150. in general terms, western countries view the world in similar ways. Democracy, free speech, freedom of movement, capitalism, etc. China has a very different world view. Different mentalities completely.

  151. There’s an guidance as to what Germany should do from their greatest writer, Goethe. Don’t make a Faust bargain.

  152. Chris Balding has another post with details on Huawei as a responsible private business. Chris taught in China for many years until it became clear that he could no longer stay. My own time teaching in China ended about the same time. He authored a detailed piece on Huawei with Don Clarke back in May It is a shame that politicians apparently don't read detailed work.

  153. Well before 5G became politicized, Huawei was a significant supplier of 4G technology to the world. Never heard a thing about Huawei. In fact, I never even knew such a company called "Huawei" existed. The US government never said a word about Huawei providing 3G or 4G technology. Now all of a sudden Huawei has excelled in the 5G race amongst its peers, and now the US has so aggressively attacked Huawei to go as far as lobbying other countries not to even use their 5G tech. Still the US has provided no smoking gun or evidence to show that Huawei is hacking or spying on behalf of the Chinese government. At the end of the day, the US has used nothing but conjecture and assumptions to block Huawei from free market competition. So I guess if you can't beat them, just ban them.

  154. you realize that legally the Chinese govt can compel any Chinese company to follow their orders, and that China is methodically taking over the world economically? literally. They're in every country. next comes political domination - loss of democracy, free speech, etc.

  155. @Melanie Wow Chinese companies "must follow the orders of the Chinese govt?" That has got to be the lamest excuse and miss characterization of Chinese law. So a Chinese company can't cooperate with the Chinese govt on matters of criminal activity or national security like every other company operating in every other country? If the Chinese govt is trying to "methodically take over the world," why stop with Huawei? Why not just ban every Chinese company? You wanna know the real difference between the US and China? The difference is the US already dominates the world, but Americans still think they are trying to liberate it.

  156. The US economic war on China will fail. China is already too big and will only get bigger.

  157. @Loup --- America banned China from the International Space Station, China will have its own soon. Banning the sale of high tech equipment and semiconductors to China is accelerating its efforts to become self reliant and then watch it take over the world's market from the U.S.

  158. Re: VW, Daimler and BMW sell more cars in China than anywhere else So does GM. And it cooperates with China on 5G , required to handle the car to car data flow required for self driving cars From China Daily, quote "Pushing pedal to the metal for more self-driving cars on roads" The 5G-V2X, built on the 5th-generation cellular network, allows high-bandwidth, low-latency, high-reliability communications of vehicles to other vehicles, infrastructure and pedestrians. General Motors is one of the first carmakers to develop the V2X technology in China. Together with Tsinghua University and China's Changan Automobile, it helped compile the country's first standard designed for the application layer, which was released in 2017. In the same year, the US carmaker demonstrated its vehicle-to-infrastructure capabilities on public roads in Shanghai, showing the vehicle was able to receive real-time data from traffic lights and thus help drivers control their speed while cutting congestion." China Daily 2019-01-07 That brings up two questions 1. Why is a US company, bailed out be the US taxpayer (never fully repaid) assisting China to beat the US in self driving cars ? 2. And second, why is the Trump administration not noticing it?

  159. @Woof Let's face it, the PRC is more technology and business savy. China’s schoolkids are now officially the smartest in the world. Chinese students far out-stripped peers in every other country in a survey of reading, math and science ability, underscoring a reserve of future economic strength and the struggle of advanced economies to keep up. What's Trump or Betsy DeVos done for education lately - zip!

  160. because there's fewer regulations, prohibitions. Bill Gates has sponsored research into nuclear energy that has resulted in a safer and cheaper form of energy than the old. They were about to start negotiations, production, in China, until trump was elected. Now on hold. see Inside Bill Gates Brain on Netflix, episode 4, i think.

  161. Singapore education results are number 1 in world

  162. Before June 2019, most of the people around the world have thought Hong Kong people only eye on money. The fact is they gave up so called great China market of billions consumers for freedom. Millions of the former colony have realized that the CPP governing China has never honored the treaties they had signed. If people in the free world put the profit and money beyond their value, the 1984 will come true soon once the CPP control the economic in Europe. Take a look what had happened to Lotte, NBA , etc; so much which must followthe mainland Chinese nationalism

  163. As long as China is encroaching upon its neighbors territory the West should stand united. Is Germany ready to accept the 9 dash line and throw Taiwan,Philippines Vietnam Hong Kongers under the bus too, to sell more cars? Trumps tariffs on China exposed fundamental weakness in Chinas economic model. Trade with China was originally thought to eventually reduce the grip of the communist party, that failed. China needs trade with the West more than the West needs them. So much for Merkels vaunted liberal values.

  164. @Lane --- should the world support an America in perpetual war? It was Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 50s and 60s, now in the Middle East and instigating chaos and instability in Xinjiang, Tibet and Hong Kong. Why can't America leave the rest of the world in peace? Defending democracy, human rights and freedom is a fake American narrative exposed by its dealings with Saudi Arabia and other dictatorships in the area!

  165. So German automakers have themselves tied up with China, which true to form will steal all their tech to use in China's state subsidized auto industry that is just getting on a roll towards wiping out global competitors as has happened already with alternative energy industries, and German auto sales to China fall off a cliff in due course anyway. Good plan.

  166. @Phil G --- contrary to your wild claims, China wants other countries to prosper so that it has trading partners. Think about that, seriously. Destroying all others will NOT benefit China!

  167. “The West should have a joint solution to 5G because we view the world the same way,” Richard Grenell, the United States ambassador to Germany, said on Thursday in an email. But Trump has steadily undermined such Western cooperation. Think of his attacks on NATO, the Paris Accords and the Iran nuclear deal, his trade war against the EU, his unilateral moves in Iraq, all done without even consulting our traditional allies, etc.

  168. Not a single backdoor has been discovered in Huawei's gears so far, yet 20+ in Cisco’s gears. The issue with Huawei is not about having backdoor, instead, having no backdoor to NSA. Once any system equipped just one Huawei gear down the food chain, the entire route to NSA is interrupted.

  169. @S. C. Why bother finding the exploits in tech no one uses? The difference is Cisco is an independent publicly traded company with officers that are legally accountable. This company had the CEOs daughter arrested in Canada for bypassing Iranian sanctions. China then sentenced Canadians to death in retaliation. If Cisco has that kind of power then no one would be allowed to use Juniper.

  170. The growth of AI and the Chinese consumer market are completely intertwined with the world economy and politics. That’s why having consistent, reliable trade deals are absolutely bedrock to the survival of any nation’s economic interests and national security. The damage Trump has done to our reputation may be irreparable. Even if we vote in someone as consistent as Bernie Sanders, other nations can shrug and say “You’ll just vote in another Trump.”

  171. Excluding Huawei is a political decision, which should be met with political decision.

  172. From a security standpoint, the safest systems are those with well-defined architectures, clear technical standards, and a mix of suppliers whose equipment is specified and verified to meet the standards. These matters are well understood by competent engineers. However, the U.S. voice on network security has passed into the hands of political appointees, who simply repeat what their masters have told them to say. Germany, France, the U.K. and Canada have plenty of technical experts who are not beholden to the U.S. Republican Party and its donors. The technical risks of using Huawei equipment are readily assessed. Indeed, this has already been done in the U.K. and the risks judged to be real, but small and therefore manageable. The political risks can also be assessed. In due course, the U.S. system of government will remove Mr. Trump from office. Appeasing him and his flunkies is very much a short term gain, possibly only months in length. Best to wait until the U.S. is back on its feet again.

  173. @Global Charm -- China embraced America's 3G and 4G despite the security risks to get ahead --- that is pragmatism. America lacks pragmatism and will fall behind taking along those who follow it blindly!

  174. @kay hong The United States has come a long way from the nation that put men on the moon in 1969. It was a nation in turmoil, but no one doubted its capabilities. The election of Ronald Reagan began a kind of flight from reality. As it stands now, the creators of the majestic Bell System have been reduced to impotent whining about a successful Chinese device manufacturer. It’s painful to watch.

  175. ‘‘Just because we have an American president who doesn’t like alliances, we give all that up?’’ he said. ‘‘Why would we? Especially since he does exactly what the Chinese do and threatens the German car industry.’’ Because you say we are allies and friends.... why does America have to threaten you to support an important democratic ally on this issue against a very dangerous totalitarian dictatorship? Europe exports mostly to China. That is the deciding factor. What blows my mind is they believe that China is not a threat to them

  176. The current administration has done one thing after another, consistently, for 3 years now to make the word “ally” near meaningless. This is like being incredulous and being surprised that another country has feigned to look at alternatives after being repeatedly punched in the face. How dare they? Seriously - the arrogance of it is stupefying and the self defeating stupidity of the policies makes you want to cry as an American. We as a country spent decades investing and building these alliances and that nest-egg has been spent in a mere 3 years by a reckless, uncurious dullard aided and abetted by a spineless apparatchiks.

  177. @Beagle The word “ally” has long been made meaningless by Germany refusing to make even a minimal responsible contribution to an equitable share of the common defense. They have preferred parasitism over alliance.

  178. KBronson, take Germany and its unquestioned support for the entire US military footprint in the world out of the picture and then tell us again how Germany is not up to being the best friend the US has had since WWII. Maybe also factor in the billions spent on housing American-made refugees while the US leans back and recaps the tale of no defense payment. Germany is not a US colony. Yet for some reason, the US seems to think its OK to treat it like one. Nordstrom is just another such example.

  179. This is another example of how Trump's self-defeating policies will lead to yet another American defeat and another Chinese victory. Under Trump, the U.S.A. is losing superpower. Putin placed Trump in the Whited House to precisely for the purposes of inflicting all this damage on America and the world.

  180. "Car companies gather loads of personal data from the drivers of their cars, and they face an enormous risk of an angry public outraged to find their data used by the Chinese Communist Party" People don't seem particularly concerned that their data is being used by unelected American tech companies, so why would an unelected Chinese Communist Party be any different?

  181. @Melbourne Town Maybe because nobody knows what happened to Tank Man? Or because the world knows what happened to Ai Wei Wei in Chengdu? Or what is happening in Western China now?

  182. @Melbourne Town Because they have jail and concentration camps and no due process of law. Because they threaten to punish the Chinese relatives of Americans who do not submit to their control. Apple doesn’t have a jail. Apple doesn’t have interrogation experts who do unimaginable things to your person.

  183. If American companies want to exclude Huawei from the US market, it's because they cannot compete except by setting up political barriers. Look what happened to Boeing. They sold a 767 to China as a presidential aircraft and then planted dozens of bugs, even in the president's bed. The Chinese found the bugs, but they kept buying Boeing aircraft and Boeing never tried it again. Why? Because Boeing knew that the market was more important to them than the presidential pillow talk, and the Chinese knew they knew. The same is true of Huawei. The American companies know Huawei would not risk a huge maket by planting spyware. But the American companies also know they cannot beat Huawei on technology and have fallen back on politics.

  184. @Dan Woodard MD Sure then can ... and yes they will

  185. Sorry but that argument doesn't hold water. One major reason that we entered the trade war in the first place is the blatent theft of intellectual property that China has placed on companies who wish to trade in their markets. If their technology is so far ahead in the game, why must they steal it? And please cite where China is winning the technological race with us. I'd take Silicone Valley over them any day of the week.

  186. @TM The Chinese students and scientists have come to US by the tens of thousands every year and continue to come. The Chinese government even pays them scholarships to come study here. No talented American has concluded that the education in China is better than here. Why would anyone in sound mind assume that China has the academic and research potential to make Huawei stronger than any US company?

  187. VW, Audi and Porsche have proven they are untrustworthy. They seem to make ideal partners for China.

  188. Well, seems like economic blackmail is a common practice. After all, the U.S. threatened Germany, France and the U.K. with a 25% tariff on automobiles unless they fell into line and initiated action against Iran for "violating the nuclear deal" (that the U.S. abrogated).

  189. What if they use software to know when it is being tested and alters its behavior to pass their certification tests? What is China’s alternative for car imports? The US is in a trade dispute, China hates Japan, and no one wants a French car. I thought Germany was obsessed with privacy after dealing with the Cold War stasi. A privacy focused country like Germany should be making their own EU networking technology.

  190. What the Chinese are doing with Germany is classic extortion. They are trying to pick us off one by one.

  191. Really? I thought it was just doing business in American style

  192. Perhaps the Germans could offer to lock out Huawei IF Trump eliminates all tariffs on German goods, including cars, and personally committed his entire "empire", such as it is, to purchasing BMW/Mercedes/VW/.. dealerships. Think of the business synergies: BMW/Mercedes/VW golf carts at all Trump courses. Mar-A-Lago would look much better as a car dealership.

  193. Let’s get real. Does anybody really think that the USA does not pressure our tech companies to secretly share data with with our own government? Haven’t we all read the articles about the administration’s pressure put on Apple and Google to create back-doors to allow data to be Hoovered out of encrypted systems? No wonder our government is so sensitive to this issue - they know the possibilities from direct experience.

  194. I hope for Germany's sake that they choose to use European 5G-- even if it will be a more expensive, longer, and painful rollout. All of the below are incredibly shortsighted and stupid reasons to choose Huawei: 1) You are angry with the US. 2) You capitulate to the Chinese in the hope they will continue to allow you to be a player in their auto market, rather than slowly stealing your expertise and supply chains in preparation for casting you aside eventually. 3) You trust the Chinese to honor a piece of paper they sign that says they won't spy on your government, your industry, or your citizens. 4) You believe it is even possible to audit devices and software as complicated as networking infrastructure and have complete confidence that you are not being spied upon. 5) You have no idea what firmware updates are, and that a device that might be completely well-behaved one day may update itself to be an intelligence-gathering device for the PRC the next. 6) You think it is no problem that Europe loses the expertise to build its own telecommunications equipment. Do the right thing Germany; buy European.

  195. The irony in all of this is that America does not itself have a single 5G vendor. It is reliant on European or Chinese companies to build its network.

  196. China every day outlaw routine majority owned foreign investment by Western or Japanese companies - as well especially all the strong tech and financial and manufacturers be it Visa Facebook Amazon etc. are locked out and yet they get upset on one justified example. How week is the west in allowing Chinese double standards.

  197. NYT is now criticizing China for the goal of criticizing China, as if there is such a thing called data privacy and equal access to market in US, and also, remember what happened to Alstom and Japanese companies when they threatened US companies' status? Didn't US use its mighty economy to compel other nations to achieve its goals? Boom, "privacy, corruption, malware, and government subsidies", funny how things turn around for Huawei when it is threatening US allegedly dominance in 5G as if there are no "corruption(because they are legalized)" and government subsidies for tech companies in US, DARPA was set up exactly for this goal. Severe double standards and this weird prejudice and arrogance held by many Western news outlets will only limit the scope of Western society which is supposed to be the civilization that explores boundaries and treat other society as equals rather than dumb White pejorative. US government never found solid proof of Huawai's alleged malware or there would be no current heated contest in European countries between Huawai and US' ban, ironically at home NSA made several headlines about its eavesdropping operations on US citizens, PRISM project and Snowden, for examples.

  198. These multinational companies, whether European or American, know no loyalty to their own country, or to the institutions of Western democracy. That is the real danger. They are the Trojan horses.

  199. I run a 120 year old family manufacturing business -- commenters just don't get the problem. The China Problem. NO -- we can't trust them. No one trusts them ... they put up with them. We can't anymore. NO country has free trade with the USA ... We have free trade with the rest of the world ... I wish people understood this.

  200. The real question is why is the USA so paranoid about Heiwai when the rest of the world is not. Apple is the richest company in the world, are phones the new oil?

  201. Richard Grenell's "no moral equivalency" between China and the US is akin self-righteousness, exceptionalism, arrogance and ignorance. Why ignorance? The US didn't learn its lessons and lies in Vietnam and repeated them in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Gulf of Tonkin incident was used to start the war with North Vietnam. Iraq's non-existence WMDs were used as a pretext to invade Iraq. The Washington Post recently published interviews with government officials lying about progress made in Afghanistan. Yes, China is an authoritarian regime but calling itself a democracy does not mean that the US is free to commit acts that are contrary to international norms and laws.

  202. USA has injected politics into the business decisions. Huawei has been around doing business in many countries. Yet USA hasn't pointed out any specific cases of espionage by Huawei. Britain did thorough study of Huawei system and found few software errors but no backdoors for espionage. It is a common sense if Chinese companies are not allowed to do business in the west China will do the same to western companies. Mr. Trump has embarked on a mission to potentially deprive western companies access to huge market of China. Remember Chinese GDP in PPP(purchasing power parity) is equal to that of USA. Also keep in mind USA always uses access to its huge market as a tool of foreign policy. It is better to keep politics out of business. Western companies have done well in China.Wth prospect of low growth in Europe the companies will suffer if China retaliates.

  203. @s.kahn, Whatever gave you the idea business decisions are devoid of politics?

  204. @s.khan The US doesn't have to point out any specific cases of espionage by Huawei. The company is required, by Chinese law, to provide access and support to the Chinese Communist Government. Huawei is, effectively, an outsourced arm of the CCP. China's attempts to bludgeon the Germans into line should be an indicator of the future. For the Germans to even think there will be no spying, because the Chinese government says so, is remarkably flawed thinking. Look at are seeing, in real time, their vision of the future. This situation should send chills down your spine.

  205. Why are we only talking about China "weaponizing" the German dependence of the Chinese market? Yes, let us completely ignore how America is essentially doing the same thing when it demands European allies to boycott companies it doesn't like, lest they face sanctions. And yes, the NSA was completely justified in spying on its allies because America is a self-proclaimed moral good guy.

  206. While I prefer to criticize Trump rather than praise him, I am glad he ended the appeasement policy of Bush and Obama towards China. The continental West Europe has always been ready to prostitute themselves with totalitarian governments, first with the Soviet Union, and now with China, not to mention the atrocious riff ruff of dictators from their ex colonies. Their only guiding principle is 'go lower'. If they want Huawei, then they should pay for their defense.

  207. I think everyone should realize that our nice cushy lives and all our innovative might rests on the fact that the United States is a superpower. Liberals may not like it, but the world isnt some woke cosmopolitan place where everyone gets along. The world is a violent scary place and power is the only important thing. The United States isnt perfect, but it's where I live and I want to continue living a good life and have freedom of choice and the ability to live as a queer transgender woman who runs a multi-million dollar company. To do that, the United States needs to maintain its power and its place as the world. We can promote democracy and over the next several hundred years we can mold the world into a place of freedom and make it into a woke cosmopolitan place. If we let ourselves fail then China WILL take over. They have a billion people, 1/7 of the world population, and their form of society and government is antithetical to freedom and choice. If they are allowed they will rule the world and mold it to their liking, and in the future thr United States will be a client state of the Chinese Communist Party. We need to fight for what we believe in, not give up because of the mistakes we made in the past. We are not defined by the past, we are defined by what we do now to usher in the future.

  208. @Jacqueline Beautifully put. "The world is a violent scary place and power is the only important thing." I think most people forget this. It wasn't that long ago that we had developed, rich countries fight in world wars. There are countries at war right now, and their citizens are at risk, and forced to flee. Many people look at the world in rose-tinted glasses, thinking everything will remain the same. They watch these fights with China and the Middle East and they think it's far away, it has no effect. They see the Chinese growing, with TikTok and Huawei and Xiaomi, and acquiring companies in the USA and Europe, and promising big infrastructure construction in Africa, and they ignore it. Well, it's all good until it's not. Of course the USA also extends its tentacles of influence in the world, but it does that to promote a liberal world, where generally anyone can flourish. I would greatly prefer to live under American influence than under Chinese influence.

  209. Two things (1) Like most companies these days who find themselves embroiled in difficult situations, they should have hired a few unemployed history majors and other liberal arts students to help them make better company policy decisions long before they ever got here. If it would have lost a few bucks (or Euros) in the short term, look what it is costing now. That said, which needs to be said, ... (2) 5G is a technology standard. It would be possible for Germany to build 5G capable cars (that has Huawei technology) but is connected to networks developed by other 5G providers. Malware can pass through any network, but at least this means that the technology itself will not be under any one company's sole control. This way, if the consumer wants to buy VW, BMW, etc., they can choose for themselves and their products will be supported by 5G technology. This would allow competition and allows the market to be judge, where we are not left with one option or nothing.

  210. Come what may, this will give China the impetus to develop their own system and technology. When over billion people use it, it cannot be ignored. It will be shameful and at great loss if the chinese system or technology had to be embraced later.

  211. Germany and the EU should demand from Beijing to level their playing field with Europe on doing business for Huawei to be included in any tender. And Huawei should be subjected to strict monitoring of how they process data in line with GDPR. And if they cannot or do not want this, be excluded on those grounds. Europe should play the same economic warefare game China is playing. Yes, China is an important market for German cars. But not nearly as important as the EU is for total Chinese trade. And with the amount of corporate debts in China, they cannot afford a big slump in their export driven economy. Let’s see who has the upper hand here.

  212. Threats, lack of an an actionable legal system in China to enforce liabilities for a nascent technology from a totalitarian China is a formula for financial and political disaster. Why on earth would a democracy put their future transportation systems into the control of a totalitarian regime? Sell out your country for a speculative business opportunity? Talk about dancing with a red devil!!! Chinese future technologies to maintain and develop a system is highly speculative as they Stole America technology to get to their current level of competency. What is the future of the car industry when electric cars have a much longer life cycle? Batteries will need to be replaced, but because of their weight must be manufactured locally, not in Germany, for cars tooling around in China. A Unified European system with friendly allies is a better choice. The Israelis have an open system that Americans are buying - Mobileye is the name.

  213. When US under Obama and Germany under Merkel were partners the US secret service tapped and listened to Merkel's phone calls as was reported and verified by Snowden - what more today when Merkel and Trump are at odds - I have not heard or witnessed China tapping or hacking Germany . Also, just because Trump wants to sell expensive LNG to Germany he now moves to have companies doing the Nordstorm pipeline sanctioned to stop Russian inexpensive gas that would help Germany secure cheaper energy for its people and industry. Think Germans and other Europeans should rethink of who are their friends and who just want them to fail by being bullied .

  214. The US has no right to accuse some countries of spying without proofs, when it has been revealed that nobody spy as much as the US. Germany better rethink its alliance with the US. The current US regime want EU to dissolve so the US can have stronger position in trade negotiation. The US has also wreaked havoc in middle east and Africa with its war on terror for the past decade, causing refugees and terrorists flooding to EU. The US destroyed EU countries finance in 2008 financial meltdown caused by fat cats in the US. Like a wise woman once said, with friend like the US, who need enemy?

  215. Germany has a deep bench in technology but its emphasis in auto has sidetracked its other enterprises

  216. Europe has always had a policy where it both allowed foreign companies on its markets and had its own companies. And it has mostly pursued policies that guaranteed that European companies kept a part fo the market (with computers it missed the ball). This balance allows the EU to have an industry that is up-to-date yet not too dependent on other powers. With 5G it should pursue a similar policy. Huawei should be welcome. Having 5G now will enable companies to build software for it sooner and not to lack behind on the world market. But Huawei should be forced to adhere to open standards and to build systems in such a way that later on systems from other suppliers can easily be added.

  217. Then change manufacturing to train cars and easy-to-install track systems. All sizes and speeds, including elevated. “Where it hurts” is really at Hasselhoff concerts. If they try to cut those off, then they really mean business.

  218. Cars may seem 20th century for most people soon. Help enable real communities and more businesses with trains and trams.