There is an awful lot money in sports, the NFL owners get it tax free IDK about the rest of the sports, so seems like its a recipe for corruption to me.
It doesn't have to be and in the end in this case the pennants and the championships will have to be taken away. I'd also advocate for criminal prosecution since the fans were ripped off, advertisers and so on.
1
The easy solution to sign stealing would be to outlaw signaling between the pitcher and the catcher. Why should the batter be the only one who doesn't know what's coming across the plate?
Setting up a camera to relay signals for stealing bases takes cheating to a whole new level. The Astros are the “Trump team” of cheats. How such a franchise could even survive after such organized and systemic cheating is beyond me. Sportsmanship? Nothing could be farther from it. Just disgusting.
2
Whatever happened to just playing the game and having to figure everything out (which pitches are coming) as you go? Um, like maybe relying on your talent? Hello?
Sheesh, little kids do this for nothing. These guys are being paid ridiculous amounts of money. This is crazy.
Take the titles away.
Think about Wells Fargo, Boeing, Volkswagen.
For all of those fans who are advancing the "it really didn't effect the outcome of the 2017 series" argument watch the movie Bull Durham again. When the Kevin Costner character wants to teach his rookie pitcher a lesson what does he do? He tells the hitter
that the next pitch will be a fastball. And the hitter crushes a home run.
The Astros didn't go to all the trouble of setting up this scheme with cameras for the fun of it. They did it because it would help them win. To turn around and state that it didn't help them beat the Dodgers in 2017 defies logic.
2
University of Michigan's former President Sue Ann Colman did the right thing in the wake of the Fab Five scandal within their basketball program. In her speech she said a quarter-of-a-century dark cloud had lifted for intercollegiate basketball's worst pay-for-play scandal. They took down two Final Four banners and vacated four years of wins.
She did the right thing considering the cheating went all the way back to the Johnny Orr days!
What else could she have done? The irony is their current coach was at the center of that scandal; perhaps they still long for those days!?
Pretty simple. Money.
When money comes into something it has a huge tendency to corrupt. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Sports always has the promise of victory and that alone will tempt cheating. But add money and the risks multiply.
Then in professional sports add big money, big ego owners who are used to having their own way and it’s amazing we don’t see more. New England Patriots and Robert Kraft. The same Robert Kraft involved in a sex scandal in Florida where young girls were allegedly paid to pleasure him. But he’s not guilty. Enough said.
The ironic thing about the Astros is that all we heard was how they were way out front in analytics and that was why they were so successful. We just didn’t know which analytics, I guess.
1
F. Clark Power says:
“We need to understand, if we are going to endorse cheating as a means to an end, the children are watching.”
“So it becomes a question of how do you want to raise your kids? We can’t get much lower as a culture if cheating is no longer a moral issue but a form of coping. We need to change the conversation.”
Read Rick Reilly's "Commander in Cheat" to see a prime example where cheating is the norm.
Looks like all these baseball teams went to the Belichick & Brady school of sportsmanship. Maybe they could franchise it?
Today?!
Cheating has been in the game since the game existed. At every point in time players and managers have used the best technology available to get a leg up. Many of them are revered for it. If it was done 'back n the day' it is described and glorified as gritty, hard-nosed and win at all costs. Today those who lost cry and the holier than though media screams for attention. The fake outrage is driven by the hysterical attention hogs in the media and owners who are used to getting their way because they are white rich guys. They'd cheat, and do, in a heartbeat if they thought it would help them win. A year's suspension for stealing signs?!!!! About 3 games would be more appropriate. If you want it to stop, take measures to stop it, instead of installing a tv to review in slow motion, every pitch of the game. The strike, steroids, and money has not driven me away from the game. The ridiculous cry baby outrage this has garnered may.
2
Strip the teams of their championships and any other game(s) they won ugly. Ban players and managers involved for a minimum of three seasons. Just think of what would happen to a cheater if he/she missed three seasons. No more cheating. And if a team continues to cheat and it can be proven that the owner is involved force the sale of that team. Cheaters should never prosper. Tell it to your children.
It really is very simple. Follow the money. Remember, there are billions being waged internationally on sports and every significant sport is now big business. Cheating is fine as long as the money keeps flowing. And if you're caught, then we will minimize the punishment as much as we can to insure revenues are not affected. Compound this with our over the top attitude about sports in general and it is really not that hard to understand. The good news is we have exported our craziness and sports around the world are all pretty corrupt now.
Cheaters should have their title taken away if they are found cheating. The Astros were accused of cheating by reading the pitcher’s signs. If they did do this, their title should be stripped because they did not earn it fairly. Taking away the title would also deter future cheating in baseball. Cheating takes away the fun of sports. Winning should not be more important than honesty.
2
Quoting a friend who went on to become a MLB scout: "I'd rather cheat and lose then play fair and win". A glib comment that addresses the 'fun' of cheating. Magicians know this thrill better than any I suppose.
Though not worth investigative journalism I've often wondered about performance enhancing drugs in Joe Citizen on the local 10k, bike race, tri, ski race, etc... I remember one of the top local performers sneaking behind a car, crouching down and taking a vial of something before a race--must've had asthma.....eh.
Much, if not most, of this pre-dates Donald Trump's run for the White House. However, we now have a POTUS who believes that winning at any cost, apparently including cheating, dishonesty, lying with abandon, and stiffing those with whom he does business is the only goal in life. AND we have a fair number of parents (40% of Republicans) who think that such a craven man is a good role model for their children. Apparently, for a few million voters, honesty and integrity are irrelevant if one can "win" by any means.
1
At the very least Official Baseball Records must explain that the Astros World Championship of 2017 resulted from cheating. Illegally stealing signs.Tainted champions forever. The integrity of every member of that team suspect. The offensive production suspect. It is a shame for the reputation of Houston.An otherwise great City.
2
It’s the way we live now (or at least since January 2017). If you’re not cheating and lying, you’re doing it wrong.
Asterisk or take away the trophy? Sure, give the Astros an asterisk. Give an asterisk to Rosie Ruiz, too.
There is a fine line between cheating and trying to get advantage though careful observation. Picking off signs of opponents isn't going to stop,a pitcher will scuff the ball if he can get away with it, a fielder will try to make a trapped ball look like a catch.
Using technology does cross the line,nevertheless once a game is over that's it. If its later determined cheating happened a large fine or draft pick penalty is in order but the results of a tainted game should stand.
Gaylord Perry scuffed the ball for years as a pitcher, great batters caught red handed with corked bat when their bat shattered. Everybody learns to keep careful watch for someone trying to get away with something, it's part of the game.
2
@Lane Results of tainted games should NOT stand. MLB's investigation revealed that multiple members of the 2017 Astros team participated in a cheating scheme masterminded by the bench coach and a veteran player, and did it with the tacit approval of the manager. If their tainted World Series title isn't vacated, and they are allowed to keep the trophy, then they got away with it . . . and teams will just keep cheating. Without integrity in the sport, why even play the games.
2
@Alan Once you start voiding games after the fact its seems it would open a cottage industry of post game analysis getting into endless minutiae of potential violations.
1
This acceptance of rule braking in professional sports in not new. Recall when the New Orleans Saints got a wrist slap from the NFL for having an active program to award players who injured players from other teams? The Saints should have had their franchised removed and management sentenced on assault charges.
I’ve been a sports fan for over fifty years. This is just awful... there are no other words. Just awful.
18
This worst effect of this scandal is causing fans to be cynical. If fans become skeptical that the game is being played fairly, it will
cause everyday life to bleed into fan experience. Baseball is a portal into an alternative universe that is free of the news and events that deplete our spirits. It brings people together and brings out so many of our emotions in a way that is healthy and fun. The beautiful game must be saved. I hope MLB figures out how to restore fan confidence.
1
Stripping the title is the surest way to create true deterrence because it brings shame and a legacy that will set it back far enough that even veterans looking for one last chance at a title will steer clear of.
Wrong is wrong, and no matter how many other teams are doing it now... they will all consider the stiffest penalties (vacating titles and lifetime bans for repeat offenders) a cost higher than they are willing to risk.
End of story...
Use of PEDs is no longer a continual problem. 80-game bans for first timer offenders works. When the league got serious, the problem diminished
2
I bet would bet that most of the MLB teams do the exact same thing the Astros did. A runner on second seeing signals from the catcher can communicate them to his dugout......seems overblown to me.
1
Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing. Vince Lombardi's quote has real implications. Not sure if Sports imitates Trump, or Trump imitates sports. This is the moral challenge to the country way more than the culture war issues so important to some.
For decades the Yankees were called the "Evil Empire" mainly by Red Sox fans, but now the shoe is on the other foot.
Both in 2017 and 2018, the two teams found guilty of cheating on the field defeated 100-win Yankee teams to advance in the playoffs and win the World Series.
Maybe the Yankees were the Evil Empire, but at least they earned their victories the old-fashioned way, by buying them!
1
Taking away team titles clearly attained on the field and engraved in our collective memory is not a good answer. Are we going to go back and declare that Bobby Thomson's HR never happened b/c of sign-stealing and the Dodgers "really" won the 1951 pennant? Suppose then that the Giants had won the World Series? Would we go back and say oh no, the Yankees did? I'm all for severe sanctions on the individuals, especially management. The Astros got plenty but I'd have been OK with more.
The last time there was a big bump in home run records - lots and lots of home runs being hit - everyone tried to give justifications such as better hitters, worse pitchers, more attempts to hit home runs. And it proved to be because of steroids.
We're through another bump of home run records, and everyone again is saying, This time it's different. No, it's not. The Twins and Yankees are hitting all those home runs because they are doing something illegitimate - and this time, it's stealing signs.
Connect the dots.
BTW, do a NY Times search of the Astro's Altuve and every article going back over 3 years espousing his greatness is right after an Astro's home game. Coincidence?
The only way to stop cheating is to take away something valuable to the franchise owner, managers, and players. For the MLB Astros, vacate the 2017 championship. For the MLB Red Sox, vacate the 2018 championship. Guarantee they won't cheat again!
2
Anything less than removing the World Series titles from Houston and Boston is a desecration of the game’s integrity. Fines and suspensions aren’t enough to restore honesty to the fraud that’s been perpetrated on the game and the fans who love it. Please give us justice!
2
Is Cheating Just the Way Things Are in Sports Today?
NO. IT'S JUST THE WAY IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN !
1
I don't know where to draw the line on cheating. There's been cheating in sports since day one. It's kind of the nature of sports. The old adage "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" comes to mind. What is the definition of cheating? If you've deciphered calls fro the QB in football ( Manning's call of OMAHA!) would that be cheating?
Just because you know Kershaw is throwing a fastball, you still have to HIT it. Same with the curve. In basketball, many times the opposing team knows what play the other team is running, yet score they will. (or not)
The steroid era in baseball. If Barry Bonds is amped up on roids, and so is Clemens, is that cheating? If Bonds hits a homer in 1 at bat, and strikes out the next, (vs Clemens) who cheated? who won?
The fans. They got what they paid for.
IMHO
1
Why would anyone be surprised, outaged or shocked except the most naive when "cheating" in all segments of our culture - business, government and personal life are and have been widely practiced. Unfortunately specific acts of cheating can persist for very long periods before being exposed if ever.
1
I am happy to see the MLB and some team owners are actually taking a step toward addressing the issue by firing people associated with the scandal and punishing the teams. This is in sharp contrast to the NFL where the cheating teams (like the Patriots) are slapped on the wrist, hire known abusers of women and their owner hires prostitutes (aka-trafficked women). In my humble opinion all of these cheating teams, owners and players should be fired, fined and banned. At that point I might be able to enjoy professional sports again.
Asterisk?? If they had to use asterisks in sports to denote cheating, there wouldn't be any room on the line for the batting averages, touchdowns, free throws, slap shots, aces or left hooks.
1
the president cheats, why not sports.
Players used to 'take care' of these issues themselves. In other words, when opposing players 'violated' the rites and rituals of the game, the pitcher would throw at the batter (a bit of chin music), or a runner sliding into second base would send a bit of a message by taking out the second baseman or shortstop. When MLB (and the NFL for that matter) decided to 'make the sports safer' perhaps they inadvertently lead to these newer problems where players can no longer police their own game. And thus, players feel emboldened and the ones who want to cheat do so, generally with impunity. Makes ya' wish for the good ol' days whereby Don Drysdale or Bob Gibson would handle things just a little bit differently.
Since I was a kid a long time ago cheating and sports have been partners. Starting with kids lying about their age- this is in the 50's - to "arranging" appropriate addresses so someone could play on a certain team to AAU hijinks things in sports have always been tainted. "Looking for an edge" and "crossing the line" are sports cliches intended to diminish the seriousness of activities that are in fact cheating.
The continuing use of "banned substances" is the best illustration of sports cheating I can think of. Do you really think all those folks taking Adderall have ADD?
I'm a college professor. The amount of cheating that goes on in a classroom is huge, from the old fashioned looking over at someone else's paper, to clever use of cellphones. I've said it before: if you want to teach integrity, make every college student play an instrument and speak a foreign language. You're on the stage by yourself: you can either play that Bach fugue, or you can't. You can either carry on a conversation in Spanish, or you can't. No one can help you and there's no way to cram or to cheat. It's on you and your preparation.
6
Remove the Astro's trophy and, if found guilty, remove the Red Sox trophy. If both are guilty change the win-loss records to 0-162. Many cry "penalize the individuals, not the team" but taking away draft picks penalizes the entire team, the fans, and potentially the entire community. Removing proven managers also hurts the entire team and the fans. It's argued that the Black Sox scandal penalized the individuals not the team but look at the White Sox for years after Shoeless Joe and the others were banned. In short, it's impossible to penalize an individual and not have adverse repercussions on the entire team. Unless the ultimate penalty is issued, that is, the refusal to recognize the championship, then baseball is just slapping the wrist and encouraging other forms of cheating.
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@Chris -This type of cheating goes to the heart of the game. It shouldn't just be noted and allowed to stand without serious penalty by MLB. To do that would be a mockery of great players who do not cheat. Take away the titles and award them to the team that they cheated against.
1
I hate to go political here, but cheating is the MO of the President. Why would any institution in America be any different? You see it when players trap a pass in the NFL. They act like they caught it, knowing full well they didn't. Soccer players fake injuries to get a stoppage of play. Deflategate. The list goes on. Why would anyone think baseball would be more honorable?
American culture is now all about winning. The joy and spirit of competition is secondary. It's about party, not country, the person, not the community. It's a fast=spreading disease. Strip all cheaters of their ill-begotten awards in every arena.
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@David You are exactly correct. They whine of "Everybody does it" will only become more truthful unless there is a reason to not cheat.
3
@Chris
Using technology and electronics to steal signs, after repeated warnings from the Commissioner’s office not to use technology for this purpose should result in several lifetime vans.
5
@Paul Duesterdick
I agree! Vans for everyone!
Then take every banner from every team that has ever won a world series.
3
I am surprised that in all of the discussion about the Astros' cheating, no one has mentioned that, years earlier, this franchise made a science of the practice of tanking to improve draft position. Tanking, or fielding a team deliberately constructed to lose games, strikes at the very essence of the notion of a fair contest and being an ethical organization. Clearly, this sort of expediency runs the risk of creating an organizational culture of moral decay and corruption, which is what happened here. It's a short walk from tanking to outright cheating, and once the former is tolerated, so is the latter. Consider it the "broken window" theory of sports management.
4
In the NFL plays are called into the quarterback from the sidelines. It would be trivial to fit a catcher and pitcher with two way communications. Baseball should do this and eliminate signs entirely.
At the same time, the players knew what was going on. They should be banned from baseball because they cheated in a way to corrupted the outcome of two seasons. The Blacksox only threw one world series. Pete Rose just bet on games. This was deep institutional corruption. As far as ownership and management goes, they should be forced to sell the franchisee just a the Clippers had to be sold after Sterlings remarks about race became public. No other punishment fits the crime. Players should refuse to take the field against the Astros if the franchise is allowed to continue in this fashion.
1
Sports and competition mean nothing unless they are held on a level playing field. Nothing.
4
There was widespread pro-Trump cheating in the last election. Let's start by rescinding the results of that.
5
Sign stealing, or attempts at it, have been a part of baseball for a long time. It seems that there is now a hue and cry simply because new technology is being used, which is designed to make it better. I would not say this is a "cheating era" but a sanctimony era.
1
@Harvey Black you're entitled to your opinion (which I disagree with), but rules are rules...break the rules and cheat (thereby gaining an unfair advantage) then you pay the price...otherwise?...
1
It's generally been individuals that are (rightfully) punished for cheating - athletes, cyclists, skiers. The unwritten law and assumption being that in team sports, one or two bad apples shouldn't poison an achievement for the entire, mainly rule abiding team.
This is clearly inapplicable in this case. The entire team had to know the signals and systems used to systematically cheat, so let's be honest..there are no reasonable arguments that can be made against the result being overturned, and the World Series being awarded to the Dodgers. (To allay any partizan comments, I say this as someone without a dog in the fight...I'm a Brit, and the sport bores me to tears).
1
Which came first, cheating in sports or cheating in politics? Redistricting, voter suppression, disseminating false information, is that any different than sign stealing? Cheating is not the problem, it's the lack of respect for the rules that is destroying us. Knowing that one cheated, and unwilling to admit it's wrong, that's the problem. I earn for the day when an athlete refuses to take advantage on a known blown referee call, and the audience doesn't think the athlete was naive to do so. Alas, there is too much at stake for professional sports these days. Cheating=winning, winning=success, success=wealth, wealth=American dream.
3
I've suspected for for quite some time that there is a lot of cheating going on in professional sports. That's why I have zero interest in watching.
Since it all boils down to MONEY. Let's make getting caught very expensive if you're caught with your hands raiding the cookie jar.
Financial penalties far outweigh any others provided there are no clever solutions that isolate assets.
Cheating can be "the way things are" and still be punished.
We don't get rid of rules simply because not everyone follows them.
1
What are signs?
No, seriously, this whole matter is laughable to me.
How is it that giving signs, i.e. secret codes designed to fool the other team, is not itself also considered a form of cheating? -- Why not require the catcher and pitcher to pre-plan all their pitches, with a very limited number of (or better yet, zero) trips to the mound for consultations, and make all sign-giving illegal? -- Then there would be no sign-stealing.
Or how about requiring that the catcher and pitcher call out audible signals to each other? -- then the batter has a fair chance to try to hear and interpret them, in the same way that the defense has a fair chance to hear and interpret the audible signals of the quarterback in American football.
More to the point, how is it that the League is allowed to use instant replay and slow motion technology to review the decisions of umpires, or that Networks can use technology to broadcast the exact speed of pitches and extreme close-ups of the catchers' signs, but the teams can't use technology to view and interpret those secret codes?
If a team is so worried that it's signs will be stolen (i.e. interpreted), maybe they just need to learn how to make better (trickier) signs. -- And really, if it's such a big deal, why not just allow the catcher and pitcher, as well as the batter and base coaches, to wear earbud headsets and communicate electronically? -- that would end sign-giving and sign-stealing altogether.
Laughable. -- Gimme a break.
1
Many fans’ comments here highlight the central issue Manfred gets to.
Cheating (whatever we perceive it to be) causes fans to abandon the game. If fans abandon it, we won’t have a game. That’s what Mr. Manfred is trying to prevent, and good luck to him. I’m a Sox fan, and once a lover of Alex Cora, but I agree he must go. Sadly.
Sign stealing is OK.
Technology to steal and relay signs is not. There’s a rule. And he must enforce it.
Ditto with technology to manipulate voters and elections when perpetrated by foreign governments: there are rules, and we can enforce them.
Voters are abandoning the game as a result, and we are all losing confidence in the system. Worse, our commissioner is encouraging us to lose confidence in the system: he’s actively trying to destroy the system from the inside.
We need a new commissioner in our nation, pronto, one with a genuine respect for rules. Jeff Foxworthy will begin with the centrist basic “everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten, followed by seventh grade civics and “Constitution,” corporate HR’s “thou shalt not grab or insult thy cubicle mate’s religion” can be a little dull, but the graduation party’s trip to “Hamilton” on Broadway is AMAZING.
Cheating may be the new norm, but soon there will be no game, and no fans to pay those enormous salaries, as we’ll all have walked away in disgust. If that’s what you want: cheat away.
1
The main problem is that anyone thinks there is integrity in a multi-billion dollar multi-national entertainment industry. To those that are shocked, Shocked! that gambling is going on in here, I say 'wake up'.
Cheating to become the best has become the status quo Whether it's the Astros cheating their way to win the world series, actors buying their not so bright kids into the best colleges or the President of the United States breaking the law to win re-election.
If you haven't earned it, you don't deserve it.
Not just baseball. Consider the NFL owners. Kraft and his strip mall exploits with women who may not have been there of their own accord. So it starts and finishes at the top. Including support for Trump and the GOP. Is anyone surprised?
3
If winning by any means is so lucrative, make it not so. Individuals are pilloried but "businesses" are not. Astros--disbanded. VW, you cant sell cars here ever again. Wells Fargo--gone. Too strong, well, wont the honest brokers in sport, auto, or banking fill the void with a dose of (valuable) fear in their business model?
Seems to me the fear of actual repercussion are nonexistent. Currently, if you get caught, make an ad campaign ala Wells Fargo--we are SO sorry. Sorry, yes, sorry they were caught!
2
Sorry, but in the age of trump, where truth, decency and honesty no longer have a place, why would we be surprised
that our "heroes" exhibit the same behavior as our president?
Sad - very sad.
1
The whole thing is so sad from a fan perspective. Houston had only flirted with success throughout the team's history. 2017 was the year of a devastating flood and the Astros season raised the city up with pride in a way not seen since the Apollo moon shots.
The players were twinkling with youth and talent - having the time of their lives. A.J. Hinch appeared to be a calm, thinking-man's baseball guy - ever steady, ever the good guy. The city was intoxicated with the glow of the win - finally and brilliantly, we had a win! While I have a hard time believing all of their success was due to cheating, it has certainly tarnished all of it.
It's notable, not excusing any behavior, that the cheating stopped when they decided it wasn't an advantage. Sad to say, if it had been, they would have kept doing it.
I do not follow sports, but maybe cheating in sports takes its cue from cheating in other aspects of society: gerrymandering, election fraud, political corruption, cheating in college, cheating in business, etc. etc. Sorry if this seems curmudgeonly, but think about it. Why should athletes have a higher moral code than others?
It’s not just in sports! Sports reflects what is happening in society at large. For Pete’s sake, is anyone following what’s happening in the current White House? Anything goes these days! A lie is only a lie if you get caught and even then, just keep denying you lied....that seems to work for for a lot of our elected officials. Trump has lowered the bar so low, I wonder if we can ever bounce back from the moral depravity in which we find ourselves. It’s not such an easy world to live in for anyone who has a moral compass. Sports simply reflects what is happening in our society.
4
"The Houston Astros’ sign-stealing scheme could be the apex of the cheating era. Or maybe that’s just the way things are now in sports."
That's the way things are in business, now. In politics, now. And in sports. American culture has changed and it is apparent in nearly all aspects of life. Donald Trump, Fox News and the Republican party have turned American (and conservative) values on their head. We no longer value honesty, decency and civility as our culture descends into amoral depravity. Unfortunately, there's little that's unique about the Houston Astros lack of integrity. That same lack of integrity permeates American society.
Remember what they taught you is college - "Sports is a microcosm of society." Well, in society at large it appears that cheating and escalating rules violations are not only the norms, but requirements for success. Just look at the Presidency, the Senate and a large swath of the Fortune 500. If you're not an unindicted criminal, you're not taken seriously as a leader....
"if you cheat to win, you’re not really a winner,”
You'd have to be extremely naive to believe professional sports aren't driven by WINNING, at any cost (except getting caught!).
With the myriad electronic tools available (some caches and managers STILL don't cover their mouths when issuing calls/instructions during games, even though lip readers are doing a great business!), it's very easy to cheat, on a relatively newer level.
No one care$ about the second place team. There's no money in it. Look what's happened to our whole country.
EVERYTHING seems to be transactional, "principles" and "values" aren't worth anything, and those pesky "laws" are costing us big money!!
The Baseball Hall of Fame has a permanent exhibit celebrating the Shot Heard 'Round the World, Bobby Thomson's famous 1951 home run.
If using electronic means to steal signs is cheating, then Mr. Thomson is a cheater, and this exhibit needs to be dismantled.
Agreed?
Sports is just another place to learn about the real world and the rewards of cheating and getting away with it, and also how useful it is for the cheater that many people deny that it is happening even when they know it is. Honesty is the Emperor's new clothes, praised by all under penalty of ostracism or worse; some people actually see them.
Why should sports be more honest than politics or business? We root for our team to win, and so we ignore the possibility and the clear evidence of cheating.
Cheating has become a normal part of the culture in the USA. The president cheats, congressmen cheat, corporate CEO's cheat, celebrities cheat, and on and on. Why wouldn't professional sports athletes cheat, given it's the norm? I suspect, by the way, that we're about to hear about several other MLB teams that were doing the same thing the Astros did. The big question is: Now that cheating is so widespread that it's become a cultural norm, what can be done about it?
1
We are obsessed with winning. We try to teach children how to play fair and be good teammates and sportsman, but then justify cheating by saying others are doing it so we’re just leveling the playing field - how convenient. On an individual basis, winning is driven by insecure (men mostly) that had issues with their fathers. And on a professional scale it’s about money. Oh and the same kids with daddy issues are now adults playing for money. People who cheat are just weak and damaged human beings.
1
What does it say about a person’s character when he can celebrate a victory knowing he cheated? These people don’t realize that they didn’t win anything. They lost their souls and are living an immoral lie. Their only victory will be contrition i.e. forfeiture of the trophy, nothing less.
1
It’s not just sport. Cheating in business, cheating in politics, cheating on Instagram by buying followers, as long as there are dishonest people, cheating will happen.
You have to assume all sports are rigged. There is simply TOO MUCH MONEY being bet on them for the sports NOT to be rigged. These are incredible athletes with incredible skills. There's very little difference between a well thrown pass and one thrown just a little too far. Point shaving has to be going on in every sport. Many of these athletes are degenerate gamblers. How many owe money to the "wrong" people? Assume it's all rigged or fixed.
No one here is cheating for “glory” of winning, they’re cheating for the financial upside associated with winning. Stripping them of their titles is meaningless; stripping them of their winnings is everything.
I say if one person associated with the franchise is caught cheating, fine every teammate, coach, and any other high earning member of it as payback.
I stopped watching any sport in which the players get their hands slapped for cheating (i.e. are encouraged to cheat). I dropped baseball a long time ago, for obvious reasons. The football game that gave us deflategate (no asterisks on the Patriots' super bowl title, is there?) was the last football game I watched. I was not surprised to see Tom Brady support Trump, just another indication of how distant he was from the concept of honesty and fair play.
I am down to tennis and soccer, and both of those are just barely hanging on. Sharapova was allowed back after her suspension for doping, and if she had lifted a single trophy afterward I would have dropped tennis as well. Serena Williams concerns me; The skinny woman who took the courts by storm and the enormous, muscular figure she has become looks suspiciously close to the before/after photos of another of my former favorites, Barry Bonds the Doper. I'm just waiting for the bad news, hoping it doesn't come. The FIFA scandal gave me pause on soccer, but since it wasn't about player cheating I've given them a pass for now.
In sports, as with all competition, the public should play a large role, by turning our backs on cheaters and liars. That we continue to cheer and support cheaters says more about us than them.
Too much money being bet, too many drugs. Sports is a business like any other and the win at any cost is justification for everything in sports today.
The only action that will get MLB to strip the title from the cheaters is an organized boycott of their sponsors. Money talks.
Excessive amounts of money ruin everything.
1
MLB, NFL, and the NBA are no different than pro wrestling. It’s entertainment, not athletics.
1
I'm an observer of human nature. I grew up watching my mother, actually the mother of eleven of us, derive such joy out of watching baseball. Now, I'm an avid baseball fan, after becoming an NFL dropout. Simply could not stomach the swill of the swamp any longer. America appears to be in the slump of it's life. A cesspool in the oval, and a bunch of cheaters in MLB. Honestly, what's the next thing that's going to be taken away? NO, don't answer that.
1
In the 1904 Olympics held in St. Louis an American, Fred Lorz, won the Marathon by three-quarters of an hour over the next runner. He was about to be crowned Theodore Roosevelt’s daughter when it was learned that Lorz had ridden part of the marathon in the back of a truck.
The gold medal went to another American, Thomas Hicks, who was pale and vomiting at the moment he learned he’d won because his handlers had slipped him a mix of egg white, brandy, and strychnine, used at the time as a stimulant.
In the 1936 Olympics, the German women’s high-jumper, Dora Ratjen, lost her gold when officials discovered she was really Heinrich Ratjen.
And then we have doping saga of Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France.
Cheating in sports has always been there, stealing signs is the least of it.
Vacate the title and make the players return their bonuses. If the union or ownership want to to litigate, let em. We can bet on the outcome.
The Australian Baseball League, a MLB-affiliated winter league, rules contain the following"
"4.10. ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT.
4.10.1. The use of electronic equipment during a game is
restricted. No Team shall use electronic equipment, other than outlined in 4.7 (bullpen phone) to communicate to or with any on-field personnel,including those in the dugout, bullpen, field and, during the game, the clubhouse. All mobiles shall be handed in to security personnel a minimum of two (2) hours before game time and remain under lock until the completion of the game. Any player or personnel found otherwise will be subject to penalties as
defined by the ABL. "
"4.10.2. Laptop computers and handheld devices are restricted.
No functionality for transmitting or receiving is permitted.
Monitors for videotape of batters/pitchers should be in the
clubhouse or, if in the tunnel, well away from the dugout and
view of players/coaches on the bench. No television camera
replay should ever be turned toward the dugout, nor may a
television cameraman operator relay information to Team
personnel in regard to a pitch or play. In addition, no televisions are permitted in the home or visitor bullpens."
That's all you need.
The whole issue is impossible to resolve - the entire enterprise of sports is unfair and riddled with cheating doubtlessly. Consider the uneven sharing of resources. You can have an extremely gifted athlete but if she's growing up in a poor school district she quite possibly will never get the coaching or conditioning to develop that talent. Is that fair? Hardly. This is like an unlimited arms race where people will "innovate" to get by the rules in spirit, if not by letter. I suggest that we simply not glorify sports so much. Sadly, there's no way out of this - too many people are making too much money. On the other hand, I don't see anyone mentioning how stupid the Yankees and other teams were not to code their signs more effectively. Certainly they could have come up with effectively encrypted signals making it impossible to figure them out without having the key. Why are the signs so easy to steal to begin with? I'm sure a few people would blame the bank for being robbed if the vault had the equivalent of a $2.99 combination lock on it.
It's about money. Period. And the fines and firings are insignificant. The only thing that will clean up all sports---whether it be intl bike racing, the mlb, NCAA, whatever, is to ban cheaters from banning cheater from participating. Dont tell me that professional golf--where participants must self--report any illegal play--is the only true sportsmanship left.
Baseball and cheating is new? As old as the game is. Spitballs, sandpaper in the pitchers glove? Just a few examples.
MLB needs to take away the "championships" of the Astros and Red Sox and as for Carlos Beltran - no HOF consideration. He's an admitted cheater.
1
The incident reflects the wide lack of any sense of morals and ethics in America today.
Sports have always been about cheating:
Throwing games, using steroids or cocaine to enhance performance...it's been going on as long as there have been organized sports with money involved.
It isn’t just sports, it is everything, business, education and politics
When we crossed the line from Grantland Rice's dictum: "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game", to Vince Lombaridi's: "Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing", we paved the way for tacit acceptance that doing anything, including cheating, to win is acceptable.
If we're serious about stopping this, and reversing this insidious philosophy, those in charge of sports - professional and amateur - need to to have the courage to overturn results gained while cheating. As such, the Patriots ought to have their AFC Championship win against the Colts vacated, as well as their SB win. The Astros and Red Sox ought to have their WS wins vacated. Individual records gained while cheating need to be overturned and removed from the record books.
Drastic? Yes! But drastic measures are needed if we're ever to regain a belief that "cheaters never prosper", instead of the current dictum" "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".
"the children are watching" the children are learning from a young age to cheat and do anything to get a leg up from the rah rah parents that vicariously live through their kids. I feel we as a culture put too much on these athletes. They are human beings, and most were the jock in high school. It seems like all of the teams across all sports are doing their best to push the limit and check the rules as much as possible. Athletes put up with it because its a win at all cost mentality and morally it seems worth it to them. Maybe we need to look in the mirror and figure out how we helped this be the case and not blame the people we helped create into the persona's they are. Accountability need look no further than ourselves as to why this is the era we live in for sports.
Sports!? Cheating is how you do everything now. From getting into Harvard to elections. Sports cheating is a side show.
Cheating is in every aspect of our culture.
Crime pays.
1
Why do you limit this title question to sports? Politics, finance, etc....
Sports is cheating. I've never seen different.
It has always groomed our children into a culture of winner takes all, bullies rule, might makes right and nice guys finish last.
Imagining that it has ever been sportsmanlike to play sport is simply denial.
This is also the way that America behaves in the world and the way rich people get rich and stay rich.
USA wake up!!
What’s the big shock about all this “cheating!”
Barry Bonds is still the home run king even though he used performance enhancing steroids. They used to call that cheating until the money boys at the league office realized fans like plenty of home runs no matter how they come. So the “steroid induced” records have been accepted and recorded as legitimate! Golly gee!
Poor Hank Aaron! A class act who didn’t cheat! Alas, he’s not at the top in the record books!
So let’s stop all this “shock and outrage” because nobody in baseball really cares ( if there’s money to be made the “new fashioned” way!)
Money comes before ethics and self-esteem.
Ask White house, look no further.
The Astros and Red Sox are cheaters. The guilty players should be banned and the titles vacated.
Perhaps widespread cheating explains why the Cubs can only win every century.
1
Seems two of the great American pastimes are smelling rank from cheating. Presidential politicking and Baseball.
One is a bore, the other is just plain boring.
1
As it was in the beginning, now and forever, Amen
Based on firings etc., no.
Setting up a camera to relay signals for stealing bases takes cheating to a whole new level. The Astros are the “Trump team” of cheats. How such a franchise could even survive after such organized and systemic cheating is beyond me. Sportsmanship? Nothing could be farther from it. Just disgusting.
1
Big deal. The social purpose of big time sports is to give people something trivial on which to be experts. Like this nonsense.
It's all about $$$$$$$$. Do "whatever it takes" to get the edge. Certainly the reputations of the coaches/administrators and players have been trashed.
Not much happening in the Ol'USA surprises me these days.
I grew up watching, idolising Stan Musial.
There is golf: and then everything else,
Whaddaya mean 'now'? Remember the Black Sox scandal of 1919? You forget so easily in only a century?
Say it ain’t so, Joe. Just say it ain’t so!
Sports?
Try — business, politics, academics, science, medicine, aviation, law enforcement, big tech, entertainment, journalism,even religion.
Did I miss anything?
Our athletes have learned how to cheat from our president.
1
We elected a well known cheater and liar to our highest office. Corporations cheat all the time and when caught pay a fine as a cost of doing business. That cheating happens in sports is not surprising. Home of the brave and the cheaters.
The president cheats so everyone else should too! Let’s have fun.
Money talks.
We're becoming just as bad as the Russians……..
They dope their athletes and we steal signals…….
Cheating is still cheating - no matter if you're in sports or the President of the United States………...
1
Just sports?
I feel sorry for all of you who let the so-called Astros' sign-stealing "scandal", which is nothing but absolute, unmitigated, self-righteous, hypocritical, cartel-imaging bull, essentially like keeping Bonds and Clemens out of the Hall of Fame, keep you from enjoying the game itself.
Good morning, America, but there's no news here.
1
@Steve Fankuchen
Bobby Thompson vs. Ralph Branca, September 1951. The only difference is that -- THANKFULLY -- there was no internet around profitably fomenting self-righteousness into a mountain of indignation from a molehill of disappointment. And I say that as a guy who still has his stubs from Ebbets Field.
Maybe, you never enjoyed and appreciated the game, maybe just more interested in the politically-correct-of-the-moment soap opera crafted by the media.
It's all about the money. There's too much of it in sports. Just like in business where CEOs suck the life out of a business while reporting temporary profits (Boeing 737Max debacle for instance) to receive huge bonus payments sports team managers, coaches, trainers, and the athletes them selves are corrupted by the potential for outrageous payments.
This is a national problem that has spilled out overseas. When the US demanded that Olympians could no longer be true amateurs, as they thought Soviet competitors gained an advantage, they started a rot that has just gotten worse and worse. It's not about sports. It's about the money!
Next thing you know, QBs will be deflating balls.
Sure it shows that crimes does pay in sports that there is no penalty. The money is not even a concern, it's just an inning worth of beer sales. Every player that took part and use the signal should be fine and banned for 90 days, something. This is a shame that nothing was done to them, again award them for cheating, just let them take more steroids, juice the balls and bats again, never seem to end with MLB on cheating scandals.
In a couple years we will find on Boston won their title the same way and again nothing will be done.
That's not cheating, it's intel gathering. I have no problem with one team working to break the other teams codes.
How about adding this to the penalties for ANY team that MLB has determined participated in electronic sign-stealing:
With the new season, start that team 10 games out of 1st place.
My team, the Oakland A's, chased the Astros the entire season. Just like our entire division did.
Signed...a furious fan who doesn't feel that the players AND fans deserved the ripple effect of the Astros and Red Sox (we played them several times too) cheating.
2
Long past time for people to stop this senseless fixation on professional sports. These games are entertainment - that is all. Don't look for messages or meaning in any of it. There is no nobility in the competition or in any athlete's striving to perform. It is all just entertainment for money. The players are entertainers, not heroes or role-models. Our "home teams" just wear different clothes than the other teams. Why on earth should we "root" for the "home team" when the only distinguishing factor is the design of the uniform? Sports is meaningless entertainment - who care what the rules are or whether they are followed?
2
Unfortunately for all of the purist fans out there, the golden age of sports is near dead.
We've seen the chinks in the armor spreading for the last 20 years. That's when I stopped being a fan ( still love the NYY).
I'll say it again. With legalized sports betting becoming the latest and greatest revenue generator in the USA, any and all players, coaches and ancillary entities will become the greatest organized crime domain ever imagined.
2
Seems the question should: which teams are NOT cheating?
@EJ 'Nati Good idea -- but I can think of something even better.
1
Ummmmm, about 30 seconds after the invention of the first sport (whatever it was), someone cheated. Cheating has ALWAYS been part of sports, whether it’s corked baseball bats, low pressure footballs, doping in cycling, Rosie Ruiz course cutting in marathons, doctored engines in race cars, doping in the summer and Winter Olympics, doping in horse racing, etc., etc., etc. There are ancient records of cheating in the original Olympics. Boxers spend hours sweating off weight in steam baths so they can regain it after they’re weighed, and fight in lower weight classes. Soccer players fake injuries so often it’s regarded as a joke. Don’t want to be overly critical here, but declaring that this is the apex of cheating is simply naive.
1
There has always been cheating in sports, just like there has always been cheating in politics, business, relationships and all other aspects of human life. That doesn't make cheating okay, but it is hardly new or "at its apex."
2
As a worldly man once taught me, "wherever there is a lot of money. there is sure to be a lot of dishonesty."
It is a no small marvel that any professional sports are played honorably.
Albert Camus, reflecting on his college days playing goalie: "After many years in which the world has afforded me many experiences, what I know most surely in the long run about morality and obligations, I owe to football.”
Things are different now. Like so many of our institutions, sport is hopelessly corrupt, and we are collectively ok with that.
It's not just about a cynical view of the rules in professional sports. Consider the rampant, institutionalized cheating that occurs in college sports, most particularly but not exclusively in the use of "impermissible benefits" to induce high school athletes to commit to schools whose administrators, at best, look the other way. Of course, NCAA and the conferences are paper tigers and evince no interest in policing these issues. Unsurprisingly, the sports in which these issues arise most commonly are the so-called "revenue sports" -- e.g., Football, Basketball, and to a lesser extent Hockey.
Unsurprisingly, our friends in the south don't like to acknowledge this obvious fact, but institutions within the SEC and ACC seem to be particularly adept at skirting NCAA and conference recruiting regulations. Other institutions that seem to be consistently benefit from such practices have historically included Ohio State (remember "Tattoo Gate" and Jim Tressel? Chase Young's laughable "suspension" during the 2019 season), USC (remember Reggie Bush?).
If cheating at all levels of sport is the new normal, why don't we just do away with all of the rules and let each and everyone team cheat equally?
Just a thought . . . .
1
Why not permanently ban all team members from the cheating teams from the Hall of Fame? Surely they were aware of the cheating and they were certainly willing to benefit from the behavior.
Maybe, just maybe, if these "heroes" thought of consequences they might just grow a conscience. Maybe not.
4
I have only one problem here with stripping the Astros of their title and giving it to the opponents. Do we have any assurance that they were not cheating also? After reading this account, I will always have my doubts. Pretty sad.
2
@Chuck Burton
Say it ain't so Chuck.....
What I don't get is how anyone could have thought that the cheating would be kept secret. Players are constantly moving to different teams and are always asked about the team they came from by their new teammates. Did the managers trick themselves into thinking that they were doing nothing wrong? Am I missing something?
8
@Phil Rubin
Me too. I think this stuff is/was pretty well known throughout MLB. One conclusion I draw from that supposition is that a lot of players doubt its effectiveness. Same thing with doctoring the baseball by pitchers. There's some complaining but basically the players are saying 'if you can get away with it, it's ok". As another writer said it's not about stealing signs it's HOW they're stolen.
1
game could lead to an outcome that would be remarkabe. Monitizing the performance of any individual leads to the likely that there will be acts of dishonesty. Sports is different than other ocupations. Players are held up to be admired and become role models. It's a shame that the business of sports has not found a way to make players be more accountable. The errosion of values that make lying OK is a dangerous situation in general as it becomes acceptable for people in high political office to lie and cheat.
Pro football uses headsets and communicates between sideline play callers and the QB. Maybe massage tradition a little and allow the catcher to do something similar with the pitcher. It isn't like they don't spend hours prepping on how to pitch each batter before each game. This is 2020, not 1920. Eliminates the problem quickly. Plus they are 2nd guessing refs and umpires in all sports with tech already. Let's up the game a little and move on.
1
What is missing from your suggestion is the need for both the shortstop and second baseman to be aware of the upcoming pitch in order to align themselves respectively.
Sports does not build character. Sports reveals character.
The character revealed in these latest scandals is ugly. It calls for retribution by fans.
The moral corruption of the NFL drove me from football a few years ago. I abandoned all baseball during the juicing era, even my beloved Kansas City Royals and even though my late wife had worked for the Roayls during their first season, 1969.
The cheating by the Patriots and other football teams and of the Astros and Red Sox and perhaps of the Yankees, Dodgers and Mets in the sign-stealing scandal persuade me that I was right to walk.
At least I've still got women's basketball and the University of Maine Black Bears and Bowdoin Polar Bears to get through the long winter. But summer and fall have become off-season for me.
10
I think the Astros should have their title vacated. That would be a true deterrent. Why should they keep their title when many of the hits, runs, and games won on the way to that title can be attributed to cheating?
I love sports because it a refuge where people from different walks of life, cultures, and countries can come together and take joy in the heights of human ability, endurance, skill, and ideally character. Whether it is a football game or a golf tournament, sports often has great drama that you couldn't script and for the most part there is little violence, and human ugliness or negativity. It is generally apolitical. It is a refuge, and a unifier, and its integrity should be protected.
3
Vacating the title does little. The Astros fans and players still have the memory of winning, and it’s not as if the losing team or fans will have any joy of being awarded a title long after the fact. A better solution would be huge fines to the owner and those involved— hit them where it really hurts — in the pocketbook.
World Series titles should have an asterisk when there is known cheating to occur just as with home run titles and compilations. The Houston Astros and Boston Red Sox are tarnished teams with Boston asterisk titles including all recent titles due to steroids earlier and Cora inspired cheating in 2018. How else did Boston go from first to last on multiple occasions within the division in the past decade? There is only one reason and Cora was along for most of the ride. Let us hope this is just an aberration and with stiff penalties, like a ban for life and loss of draft choices, it will be.
4
So when does discovering a pitcher's 'tell' become strategy, and when does it become cheating? Is it cheating to watch hours of video before a game to learn signs? I think not. Then why is it cheating to watch video in real time learn signs? I can't 'see' the difference, but I can 'feel' the difference, if that makes any sense. The Astro Cheating Scandal is philosopher's dilemma, in my view, but a dilemma that must be adjudicated in the open. Good luck with that.
Hey Mr. (reminds me of a Donna Summer song):
Here’s the difference: if you discern signals with your eyes while a base runner on second, all is fair; if there is no one on second base then it is impossible for the team at bat to know the signals. Houston was able to decode the signals on every pitch using technology. This is cheating.
A good hitter that knows when a fastball is coming can hit like it’s batting practice. A massive advantage as evidenced by Houston winning it all in 2017 against tremendous Dodger pitching.
Take away the World Series titles & fine/suspend all involved players. Every single one.
Yes, many of them are on other teams now, and the suspensions will affect said teams. Maybe that will get the teams to play clean next time. It will certainly get their attention.
3
It is easy to stop sign stealing.
Vary signs for different batters.
I am much more concerned by football teams that DELIBERATELY try to injure other teams' players.
4
@david You mean the "bounty" The NO Saints put on injuring 49ers? Yes, and THEIR coach is still employed!
Personal honor and integrity are traits of the past it seems. The end really does justify the means, doesn't it, whether in sports, business or politics. Worse, in our dealings with one another. The next election isn't going to return our culture to "normal." Normal is now what we have. How's that workin' for you?
I understand the sentiment, but I think it’s misguided to consider some past as embedded with more integrity and all that.
Of which past do you speak?
As a passionate baseball fan and faithful Red Sox follower, I'm certainly disheartened at the thought of a tainted title as the result of the current illegal signs stealing scandal. However it really hurts when looking way back in time, one realizes that the tradition of going to the extremes in order to win is nothing new in baseball.
As a youngster while living in the old country, i was equally a passionate Brooklyn Dodgers fan and I relived so many times that fateful moment in 1951, when Bobby Thomson hit his famous home run in the bottom of the 9th and gives the New York Giants the National League pennant.
And then decades later it is revealed that the NY Giants had a very elaborate scheme in place at Polo Grounds, with a potent telescope situated in center field aimed at the catchers glove and relaying his signs by pushing a buzzer that conveyed to the batter the upcoming pitch.
Initially denied by Thomson and the Giants coaching staff, the sign stealing scheme was later admitted by all. When Thomson himself got it off his chest, he was said to have exclaimed: " I feel like if I just got out of prison".
1
Thanks Joe for bringing all of these separate incidents together. Hopefully people will read these words and bring to themselves and their families a more profound sense of fairness in sport and life.
1
Sign stealing of the old fashioned variety was always very upfront and teams made every effort to change signs to confuse the opposition. It was a cat and mouse game that probably did more to alleviate the boredom of a 162 game schedule than actually influence game results. The current variety is a totally different animal that deserves the tough punishment it’s receiving.
The beautiful simplicity of baseball drew me to the game in spite of growing up in a hockey mad city and country.
I applaud Rob Manfred’s defense of a wonderful game.
1
I worked in New Jersey State government for a number of years. Corruption was a constant and a given in the legislative, regulatory, and contracting activities of the State. Appointments to high salary positions were based on political favoritism, not qualification.
So to me, watching a TV monitor that allows an opposing team member to see the same thing as is shown to fans watching at home on TV may be cheating, but not outrageous. Perhaps, instead of communicating on the field with 19th century hand signals, they should use some form of encrypted digital signals.
2
@RM Yes, it's time for technology to assist he evolution of professional baseball. At least on paper. A hack-proof (if that's even possible) com method for pitcher/catcher
pitch calls would be, SHOULD BE, an obvious opportunity to both improve the process, and reduce the cheating potential. However, as another notorious cheater likes to say, "We'll see...".
I don't recall specifics, but in an anonymous survey, a fairly large percentage of olympic "amateur" athletes said that they would take a drug that increased their chances of winning even if they knew it had longer term side effects. These are people who are not paid. Now add millions of dollars to the mix...
1
@Perfect Commenter Successful Olympians do indeed "get paid" by the YUGE endorsement opportunities, etc., available to the "winners".
You put it all together, and you're right, this is a wider phenomenon than just baseball. Jeff Madrick has defined the era stemming from Reagan's California tax cut craze in the 60s to leveraged buyouts and to the derivative speculation on Wall Street as the Age of Greed. This, unlike supply side economics, does trickle down into the culture. Winning at all costs has become the maxim. The sports broadcasters and analysts are happy to supply the mythos and legends, overlooking the corruption right in front of them. This isn't even touching on how odds makers like Caesar's in Las Vegas have partnered with ESPN, or how the legalization of sports betting and fantasy games has corrupted sports.
1
I've been involved in coaching youth baseball for almost ten years - little league and other instructional work. I try to teach these kids to love the game, and to consider the opportunity to learn and play the game a privilege. I try to teach them honesty and accountability, sportsmanship, and how to handle failure. I have no sympathy for major leaguers, whom these kids look up to, when they cheat in the various ways that sadly have been part of the game. I appreciate Mr. Beltran's admission and statement, as it shows that he is owning up to what he did, and acknowledging that he is a good person who made a mistake. I also appreciate that he, Mr. Cora, Mr. Lunhow, and Mr. Hinch have had to forfeit, at least for now, the privilege of working in this game.
3
When I was a kid, a police officer gave me a hard time because my driver's license was altered to make me "old enough" to buy booze. I said, "I bet you did this when you were a kid too." He said "yeah well I didn't get caught."
The story is the same here. Cheating has always been a part of sports, but now it's easier to be caught and it receives a lot more press scrutiny. I'm not saying cheating is ok, but I am saying that this article is a bit short-sighted in they way it looks at cheating in the current era with righteous indignation as if it just started now. Like the police officer, the athletes of the past didn't get caught.
1
Bobby Thomson hit his home run to beat the Dodgers in a three-game playoff in 1951. But he would not have been at bat had the Giants not won 37 of their last 41 games that summer. Brooklyn fans long suspected that the Giants were stealing signs from a perch in their center field clubhouse in the Polo Grounds.
3
Too much money in sports now...
skirting the edge of the rules sometimes goes too far.
2
@steve boston area
Ah......BeanTown
Hub of cheating....two sports......big time......
Not only should World Series titles be voided, but coaches, managers, and owners who participated in the cheating or had knowledge of the scheme should be banned for life - just like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson. That’s the “tradition” MLB should be following.
Maximum penalties - no excuses - cheaters should face the prospect of losing their careers and being labelled as pariahs.
3
@Archibald McDougall It's the ONLY way, if pro "sports" think they value public support. Otherwise, it's just more corporate corruption "winning".
I don't see how Houston keeps their title. They had a live feed of the opposing catcher on a nonstop stream, and installed a huge TV in the dugout showing that feed, and were banging on a trash can to signal what pitch was coming to the batter. That is beyond dirty, clearly wrong, and unsportsmanlike, and given how long it went on, no one who was in that organization can say with a straight face that they didn't know it was going on. The organizational consent, and the role of an assistant manager in the cheating means you can't just single a handful of guys out and drop the hammer on them - the whole organization should receive a very harsh punishment, and that's voiding the championship they won in part by employing such methods.
1
Even golf, the ultimate self-policing sport, has had its share of cheating scandals through the years, most recently with Patrick Reed’s illegally improving his lie in the rough during the Hero World Challenge, in clear view of TV cameras. He was called out for it, suffered plenty of catcalls and media scrutiny for it, but there he is, still playing, unapologetic. The quest for winning is often held up as the ultimate American pursuit. Who doesn't love to win? But that old saw "fair and square," the foundation of true winning, seems downright quaint these days, from sports all the way to the highest office in the land.
@Vic Williams Tamping down your line with the putter is egregious and all too common, and it is CHEATING. The "officials" frequently "miss" the offenses, thus further eroding the game.
I haven't read every comment here, but I haven't seen anyone point out that every batter who knew the signaling scheme was also (duh) a cheater. It makes it look like the two people punished were sacrificed so that, hey, we can just move on... Any judgment which leaves the players' complicity unacknowledged is pointless.
1
Sloppy ethics may affect sports. They don't effect the office of the President of the United States. Everything is fine ethically.
How is it that we consider it fair and just to remove medals from the known cheaters from Russia, while at the same time allow that Patriots, etc., to keep their titles and Superbowl rings when they got them cheating through the season?
1
It's not like there is money riding on the games, right?
3
When winning is the only thing, anything goes.
2
It used to be it’s not cheating unless you get caught. Now, in everything, not just sports: “I got caught. So what?”
2
@pendragn52 Sounds all too familiar.
There are many kinds of cheating in sports, but sign-stealing in baseball goes way back. The fine line between what is currently legal or illegal seems arbitrary. I mean, all you have to do is turn on the TV and listen to the broadcasters! Can that really be policed?
I gave up on Professional Baseball when there was the strike
and there was no World Series.
It made me realize that the fans did not matter to most of the
players and owners, only our money did.
Perhaps that is who it has always been.
If the teams cheated by organizing a method to steal the signs
and then transmit them to the batter, then their World Series Titles
should be taken away.
In the meantime can Joe Jackson please be placed into the
Hall of Fame, for his offenses, if any, were far less planned,
and far less serious.
I would also like to see Pete Rose given a chance to be voted
on for the Hall of Fame.
3
What can sports fans do when certain teams are guilty of high-tech sign stealing, yet the entire league (including the commissioner's office and every team in MLB) is complicit? Perhaps an outside adjudication process similar to the Mitchell Report is necessary in order to get each of these teams in line.
Of course, the commissioner's office has to begin to take sign stealing seriously instead of taking its usual "boys will be boys" approach.
Professional baseball was my favorite sport to watch or listen to as a kid, and then the doping scandal led me to largely abandon watching it for years. I eventually got interested in it again, mostly influenced by the fact that my favorite team from childhood - the Houston Astros - had turned a corner and become a great team. Their World Series win, in the wake of the devastation from Hurricane Harvey - was thrilling and meaningful to so many Texans. Now we know the beloved players on that team were cheating all along. It's hard to maintain interest in any sports teams (or individuals in non-team sports) when there's no way of knowing if the victories are being earned through skill and hard work rather that some cheap shortcut.
3
Sports have always been a window to everyday life. We work hard we play hard we study the rules and play fair. But over the past 20 years sports has taken on the taint of politics where all is fair as long as I win. You can lie like this president, you can cheat like this president as long as I come out on top. It was never about playing the game or serving your constituency it was about winning and having power. Because when you win you have all the power. I still believe in showing our children that the rule isn't all's fair in love and war but its how you play the game and play it with pride and honor and fairness. Has that ever really been the credo of our country or was it just a myth?
7
In the 2017 World Series, the Astros hit Clayton Kershaw and the Dodgers for 10 runs when he pitched. He was the hottest pitcher in baseball. A couple games before they did the same to Yu Darvish. As the LA Times asked, how did they do this? They cheated. They stole signs. It's a lot easier to hit the game's best pitcher when you know in advance what he's going to throw. I'm not even a Dodgers fan, but why should their fans pay thousands of dollars for season tickets if their team will be eliminated by cheaters in the playoffs? You asked if this matters. Of course it matters--it's high stakes to the fans who invest their money and passion into their team. If Barry Bonds is kept out of the Hall of Fame for juicing, those players who sought an edge by stealing signs should as well.
9
Cheating isn't something new.
Whenever you have millions (or billions) of dollars on the line, people will cheat. Whether it's in business, sports or any other field. I'm sure there are plenty of skeletons hidden in many closets that we don't know about.
I think it should be applauded that we now have whistleblower protection laws that make it easier to detect cheating.
3
There's a false equivalency between this sort of strategizing and performance-enhancing drugs.
PEDs do ruin the integrity of the game, and there are two ways to even the odds: (1) either have no one use them or (2) have everyone use them. But of course, it's completely unfair to have everyone use them, because PEDs cause lasting harm to athletes. Athletes shouldn't have to destroy their bodies in order to win.
But unlike PEDs, outsmarting your opponents doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't cause lasting harm. And so I don't quite understand why it's cheating to figure out the other team's signals. Aren't sports supposed to be about playing your opponent too?
Whether it's good baseball or not doesn't matter now, though, because this method is now out there, and teams are going to use it if they can get away with it. Not everyone can get away with it, so this method is definitely going to give some teams an unfair advantage.
But again, it doesn't cause any harm to the players. So if MLB really wanted to make their games fair again, they'd allow teams to use this strategy openly. If everyone is allowed to use it, it's as if nobody uses it. The game remains fair.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
@Matthew It's a fair point, but I think the difference is the use of technology to steal signs rather than the naked eye. If a runner at second picks up a catcher's signal and relays it, that's fair game. But using technology is strictly prohibited, so it's not like they didn't know it was against the rules. Of course, the more technology you introduce, the more likely it is it can be abused. I'm all for a return to organic ball minus the high-technology and Kevlar body armor.
1
Vacating titles in a team sport doesn't just penalize individuals, as in the Olympics or Tour de France. It also penalizes the fans plus any members of an organization who were not party to the cheating. It's not in baseball's interests to alienate fans in any city and ruin a franchise's long-term health. If Houston is to remain a viable MLB city, you can't snub those paying customers for something a handful of individuals pulled off. The tainted nature of the title and other penalties are punishment enough.
1
@StuAtl
What harm is done to the fans?
What obligations are owed to the fans?
On what basis do you base the conclusions of alienation of fans and harming the viability of baseball in Houston.
Granted after the Black Sox scandal, fans abandoned the White Sox franchise, causing them to move to Toledo.
But other than that, is there any example you can cite?
1
I haven't watched, paid for a ticket or, even cared a whit what happens in all 4 major North American sports (baseball, football, basketball and hockey). The leagues leaders have failed their constituents and made a travesty of their games. Why support individuals who cheat, lie, steal, engage in fraud, domestic violence, physical assaults not to mention the near complete disregard for their players' health, the public's health (have you seen the food & beverage offerings at these stadiums)?
I grew up with these sports and like many others lionized the participants and hero worshiped along with everyone else. Then I moved out of my teenage years and saw professional sports for what they are: compromise everything in the pursuit of profit. It's been years since any of these leagues have gotten any of my money...and they never will. I'd rather watch paint dry.
4
How about they just give the pitcher and catcher headsets and they can just talk to each other.
2
@Gerry
because the infielders need to know as well.....have you ever played the game?
1
Well, MLB took away Houston's top two draft picks for the next two years. They fined them the most the MLB constitution allows. They suspended the manager and the general manager (Houston decided to fire them the same day).
MLB pushed Boston to dump their manager and the Mets did the same thing - two guys that were involved in the cheating.
It doesn't appear that MLB thinks it is the cheating era. Certainly no more than when ARod and other steroid users were leading the Yankees to titles.
Ban any person involved at any level with cheating, erase all accomplished with any level of cheating. Retroactively there are no champions and most accomplishments, records, pfft, never mind fun. No wonder Roger Maris' hair fell out.
Bobby Thimpson's home run was facilitated by a guy in the bleachers stealing signs with binoculars. The Dodgers win the pennant!
It's fair to say that all of us have at one time or another have had the opportunity to cheat.
There is no blurry line between cheating and not cheating, as the column asserts. You either play by the rules or you don't.
Cheaters at heart are losers even when they win.
If they successfully cheat, they delude all that they won. But in their heart of hearts they know they only won at fooling everyone. They did not win with pure talent and effort.
There is no substitute for winning cleanly and honorably.
1
From president Trump on down cheating has been accepted as not only normal, but required in order to "get ahead". They should change the national anthem to "Cheaters Always Prosper".
Some of these comments really do constitute a public service! Amazing how many individuals are unable to distinguish cynicism from sophistication, and willingly reveal their nihilism/the complete absence of any moral compass as though such expressions would enhance their stature in society. These people are latent criminals (at best) seemingly soliciting opportunities to actualize their sociopathic tendencies. I guess it is better to be open about one's sociopathic/psychopathic personality than to victimize others by pretending to be someone willing to exert honest effort and make a legitimate contribution to society. Thanks for being honest at least in that regard!
1
If the manager and general manager were fired, why won't the players also be penalized. In my opinion, any of the batters who benefited in this scheme should be suspended for 50 games.
In the meantime, I'm bringing a trash can and sitting as close as I can to the Astros dugout.
1
“It doesn’t take a philosopher to know that if you cheat to win, you’re not really a winner,” or a "tree full of owls" to figure that one out. If you CHEAT you don't win. We used to say as kids,"cheater, cheater, never beater".
The Astros and the Red Sox should be stripped of their titles and give them the Pete Rose* next to their names. Any rings or endorsements ought to be returned and stripped from the players. A game is a game, if you cheat to "win" you don't win, you lose. Plain and simple. But it seems the Baseball Commissioner wants the public, including millions of kids, to understand you can cheat and win. SAD.
As far as I am concerned, there was no World Series champion in 2017 and 2018. The Patriots got their comeuppance this year; eliminated in the first round by the #6 seed. Go Titans!
3
Houston Astro/New England Patriot ethos:
It's whether you win or lose
Not how you play the game.
1
That’s what it’s always been called the ‘show’ because there is no sport in it
Well in football you can put a bounty on the opposing QB. You can hit him late, low, and illegally. Afterwards your coaching staff may all be suspended but you do not lose your super bowl rings. In fact, years later they change the rules for you when you don't win.
Far too many people buy into the aphorism, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'" these days.
Most people who cheat do not perceive themselves as immoral. They proceed from the assumption that they are good people, but in a "dog eat dog" world where everyone ELSE is cheating, they don't want to be patsies.
1
Anyone who celebrates competition after cheating dosen't even know what victory is - to wit: Donald J. Trump.
1
Ugh. If I was interested in watching cheaters then I'd be spending more time watching Trump.
Sports, like the monster who holds the job of President, reflect who we are as a society.
Does anyone believe that a multi-time draft dodger, con man, and scoundrel like Trump would have come anywhere near the office of the Presidency in the 1950's? When our society demanded at least some level of ethical and moral behavior from its leaders, and its sports teams?
Now look at us.
We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing our society to devolve into the immoral mess that it is.
1
Only us too poor to protect ourselves are punished for breaking the law. Nothing the Astros have done have any meaning or weight. How many years have they been cheating? One thing for sure, they don’t deserve that last banner. Toilet paper is all it’s good for. And that should go for any team, or any players. The money thrown around in sports is disgusting.
3
“It doesn’t take a philosopher to know that if you cheat to win, you’re not really a winner,” or a "tree full of owls" to figure that one out. The Astros and the Red Sox should be stripped of their titles and give them the Pete Rose* next to their names. Any rings or endorsements ought to be returned and stripped from the players. A game is a game, if you cheat to "win" you don't win. Plain and simple.
As far as I am concerned, there was no World Series champion in 2017 and 2018. The Patriots got their comeuppance this year; eliminated in the first round by the #6 seed.
Just like Trump. His election is tarnished: we’ll never know who really won in 2016. Still, he sits in the White House and flies on Air Force One.
1
I hate the saying "If you're not cheating, you're not trying" one of the reasons I left the sportswriting business. How can you win anything without your true, honest best effort and go to bed at night thinking you're a worthy champion? You're not, you're a cheater.
A.J. Hinch and his cronies should be banned from baseball, and perhaps many of the players, too. If you have to cheat to win, you're not trying, you're cheating and this means at the end of the day you just weren't good enough. Your talent, your desire, your hard work, your integrity, and your effort, were all not good enough so you had to cheat. You aren't a champion, you're a cheater.
1
Sorry Mitch, and your shameless accomplices, to use your talking point; but there is no purity in human endeavors.
1
Say it ain't so, Joe.
As if no one ever cheated in the history of baseball before now.
https://books.google.com/books?id=pX-hDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA171&dq=grand%20larceny%20roger%20angell&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q&f=false
1
As a reminder, the Astros won games 2 and 7 of the 2017 WS at Dodger stadium. How could they have cheated using such a system in LA? Also, how would players be able to hear this “trash can” system at the plate from a tunnel near the dugout in a raucous stadium during the playoffs, especially in extra innings at game 5? Does the report even state who specifically used this system? Astros top players did not and do not need it. And Beltran wasn’t even a factor in the WS. The Astros were just the better team that year. But if we're going to talk of stripping titles or putting asterisks next to their record, then we need to do an all out investigation of every winner and check for all possibilities of cheating, including doping, use of illegal technology, doctoring balls, corked bats, illegally over-sized gloves, pretending to get hit by a pitch when you weren't, and any other way teams and players have sought an advantage that's against the rule book. I'm not condoning the Astros' actions. But if we're going to be fair about this, let's open it up to all teams before we start the witch hunt.
3
Houston should be stripped of its title.
1
I play (old man) competitive baseball at national tournaments around the country. Cheating happens in these events all the time. Not stealing signs (they're called signs for a reason and the pro signs must not be that good), but by bringing ineligible players (underage, recent-pro experience, etc). And there's not even any money on the line. It happens because these people are fallible humans ... now there's your sign!
Look at who our president is. He's cheated and conned his whole life to get where he is. It's always worked for him, so why not? Cheating at taxes "makes him smart." That's how these sports leagues feel too. There is no moral compass anymore, from the White House on down. Nice guys finish last.
1
Actually, cheating is American. Most people cheat and most will commit crimes. It sounds bad, but it depends on how you look at it. Our justice system is fake and not actually about justice, so cheating is actually a legitimate response to a corrupt system.
No one has any moral reason to follow the laws. Sure, you don't want to get caught and punished, but it's not like there are real laws that are applied fairly. It's all about money and power.
As for baseball, they all cheat. Again, it's the American way. We really think that those who can cheat and get away with it are smart and that if they get caught they are fools who deserve the punishment, not because they cheated, but because they were dumb enough to get caught.
1
At least put an asterisk next to the Astros championship, like the Roger Maris asterisk. Or the Barry Bonds asterisk. Oops, sorry he’s still listed as the “career home run leader”. No *.
1
Sadly we live in an asterisk world. Who's minding the asterisks? MLB is merely a small fry that has yet again popped its ugly little head out of the sludge waters. Pitiful yet understandable given all else that is happening (and not happening).
Say it ain't so Joe!
What I don't understand is whether each Boston Red Sox batter stepped up to the plate against a LA Dodger pitcher and could look past him to the center field bleachers to see what the next pitch will be. Knowing a fast ball or a curve is coming would be a huge advantage.
But this would mean every player was involved and complicit.
Is that what MLB says happened?
If this is true, then all the players involved would face lifetime banishment, no?
What is it that MLB found?
They cheated using technology. No other team did this. I don't understand why people are trying to brush it aside or rationalize it.
Unless MLB vacates the series, the message to kids (and everyone else out there) is it pays to cheat.
2
@Bill The investigation is ongoing and there is no certainty that other teams didn't do the same thing. Vacating the title sends a different message: That fans don't matter and we'll yank the rug out from under your joy because someone else did something wrong. That's no way to build a future fan base.
1
@StuAtl I don't see that message at all.
Yu Darvish, Clayton Kershaw, and the Dodger's fan base were robbed. Why don't they matter?
1
"Or maybe that’s just the way things are now in sports."
Well, that's the way things are, until the titles/wins so gained are removed, until the entire team is suspended for the following season, & until the management has to pay a very high fine. Perhaps MLB should then donate that fine to the cash-poorest teams.
1
"It becomes a question of how you want to raise your kids?"
Maybe we should tell our kids that professional sports are not real life. The sun comes up the next day even if your home team loses.
Maybe we should tell our kids that some rules are not enforced at all, because if we allow traveling in basketball the dunks are more spectacular.
Maybe we should tell our kids that we really can't say why it is ok to steal signs one way, but not another.
The only force that can apply some serious consequences to cheating is legalized, regulated sports gambling.
Now that has become a reality, this should get interesting.
Sadly, the exorbitant amounts of money flowing through the game provides too much incentive for bad behavior. Unfortunately, cheating works and the winners often seem to be those who are best at "getting away with it".
More sadly, this sounds an awful lot like our economy.
Signs go back 100 years! The need to use headsets in the batter helmets, just like the NFL!
1
You are obviously not an actual baseball fan. This kind of cheating is different, and it has potential to ruin the game.
When teams collude to steal signs they are violating fair play rules and deserve to be punished especially when they win the world series. It is cheating not based on skill and talent. Huge amounts of money are involved and it is misrepresents the honesty of the game. As fans we shouldn't accept this dishonesty. An asterisk is not enough.
1
Is there any evidence that any member of the Astro team objected to the practice that they all apparently were aware of?
2
Until we as a nation face up to the fact that our president has made a very successful career out of lying to and swindling myriad large and small investors, I don't think we'll see much in the way of moral outrage about the cheating scandals of professional sports teams. It just a sign of the times...anything is justified as long as you win.
1
So MLB wants to prevent cheating. What a joke. The league is structured to enable cheaters in it's lack of a salary cap and shared revenue. Do you think those of us in Milwaukee will ever win a World Series?! Sure, we were 1 game away from a World Series 2 years ago, but we knew we weren't getting there. And if we did, the Red Sox, at twice our salary, were going to cream us. Give me a break.
1
@Eric
Not to mention billionaire owners, coming hat in hand to taxpayers, asking for money to build stadiums.
Blame the stingy owners.
Steinbrenner wasn’t the richest owner by a long shot, yet he was always willing to spend and make his teams competitive.
1
MLB recent decision is a sham. Firing all of these managers is a sham. Stealing signs to obtain an edge has been going on since baseball started. This is just MLB turning their heads just like during the steroid period, we know it's going on but we will delay judgement until the fans return or until there is some outrage. Who cares, it is baseball not life or death.
A more fair approach would have been to fine the teams and players that were caught, like 10 million dollars an incident and then MLB should have used the funds to help children develop baseball or some other good deed instead (like childhood hunger and poverty), MLB will take the fines and fatten an already overstuffed account. Instead MLB removes players that do some good to communities outside of baseball (Cora and the Redsox in Puerto Rico) etc.
Pete Rose is stilled banned, shame on MLB. Rose admits to betting, but he bet on his team to win and had a career of playing winning baseball.
MLB loved the steroid period of McGuire and Sosa and others because it was good for the box office and television revenue.
3
trump has his whole family on the payroll, hollywood paying off colleges to get their children in, sports are just the same! welcome to america the more it changes the more it stays the same!
MLB missed their opportunity to make a firm statement on this issue. The 2017 Astros and 2018 Red Sox should have been stripped of their League pennants and World Series wins in the record books. That is the only way to discipline the all players who knew about and supported the scheme.
Poor Roger Maris is doomed to go thru eternity with an asterisk next to his outstanding achievement and MLB let's these clowns proudly wear World Series rings they stole! Outrageous!
@Joe There is no asterisk next to Maris' record except in people's minds. You want to punish the players and teams, fine. But what about the paying customers who did nothing wrong and may decide such a snub would keep them from going to the ballpark? Is ruining franchises the goal in pursuit of justice? Do you burn down the whole house to make a point?
@StuAtl
Franchises that tolerate this cheating deserve to be burnt down for the sake of the game and its integrity. That is the reason we have rules in sports and the reason those who break them must bear the consequences of their actions. This is on a par with the Black Sox scandal and should be dealt with accordingly for the good of the game.
If the Astros cheated, they didn't win. Period. Cheaters are not winners. And if MLB can't get it together to see this and act on it, then Major League Baseball doesn't need any more of my time or money.
1
And the lesson to the young...go ahead and cheat. There will be some complaining but you’ll get to keep your trophy and share of the winning purse...wow, politics and sport intersect!
2
Punish the Astros and the Red Sox - nullify championships and demand surrender of trophies and rings.
A friend of mine said one of the best moments of his life was watching Altuve hit the clinching home run against the Yankees with his son when the Astros were on their way to the title. Now that moment is tarnished forever.
This ruins sport and the extremely positive roll it can play across our lives. The world can be a nasty place, people often feel cheated in daily life so the hope is that sports are a place without cheating. Where hard work on a natural talent can turn into something great. Something pure in a world full of everyone trying to step on everyone else.
Shame on them, take away the title. The players should be punished too.
141
@Tom
"The world can be a nasty place, people often feel cheated in daily life so the hope is that sports are a place without cheating. Where hard work on a natural talent can turn into something great. Something pure in a world full of everyone trying to step on everyone else.”
This seems a idealized, quaint take considering what has always gone on to some extent in sports. But for sure in the 21century, all sports that have a professional level have become elements in the entertainment business empires whose agents spread corruption down the line through the college, high school, and elementary school levels.
1
@Tom
Altuve hit a slider that didn't break. How do you 'cheat' a slider into not breaking? I am not saying real-time video spying is not cheating. I am just saying Altuve got a pitch to hit, he hit it out the park, and that that is not cheating.
1
@Tom Do the players deserve to be punished? Absolutely. Here is the problem. The only way Manfred was going to get the truth out was to give the players immunity. Other then Fiers statement and the Chicago White Sox there was little hard evidence The only way to get the full story out in a timely fashion was to give the players and the low level employee's to talk. Otherwise this would have gone on through this season and possibly the next. And the players are facing a type of punishment. The court of public opinion. The players , at least for the next couple of years, will not be wearing their rings and bragging about the 2017 series "win". The entire 2020 season they will be hearing a trash can lid serenade and boos at every road game. Go to any of the players twitter sites and they are getting dragged on every one of their posts. Not the full justice they deserve but it is something
3
Maybe baseball should change the way the catcher signals the pitch. It has always been understood that signs could be stolen by the runner on second base. It isn't a surprise that someone figured out you can also see them on a TV monitor, as we all do at home. How many other teams did the same thing, but aren't in the spotlight because they never made the world series?
Why not a device worn by the catcher that sends an encrypted signal to an earpiece worn by the pitcher?
46
Now that makes sense. A good use of modern technology. Similar to the devices NFL quarterbacks have in their helmets. They’d need to rely on something other than audio since a batter could obviously hear the catcher speaking.
4
@Robert K There was an article in Washington Post after WS outlining how the Nationals were wary of Astros and devised a very elaborate sign system with different codes for each pitcher
9
@Robert K The Houston Astros would find a way to hack the signal system or develop software to overcome the encryption.
1
Sports and the presumption of fair play that is integral to their value for participants and spectators alike, occupy an essential role in our society and our economy. Sports are one of the major means by which we socialize our children to comply with standards of integrity and the rewards of hard work. Their value as recreation and physical exercise are irreplaceable, especially in the formative years, but for many of us, as a life-long focus. The need to maintain ethical standards at every level cannot be over-stated. The motivations of those eager to normalize cheating are hostile to the requirements of a just society and must be vigorously rejected at every level. Anything less than criminal prosecution for fraud and the eager imposition of life-time bans for professional cheaters amounts to criminal facilitation on the part of those responsible for maintaining fair play in the various professional sports. The financial stakes and the potential damage to society are too high to allow this conduct in our most visible institutions and enterprises.
50
@mike4vfr
I think you make too much of adults playing a child's game.
2
The baseball cheating scandal is a study in group psychology. Over 50 players across two teams across two years were either active participants or were complicit, in addition to two managers, coaches, and others. It is easy to imagine the calculus of an Olympic runner cheating. Win a medal, make lots of money, get endorsements, become famous, bask in the glory, everyone is doing it, and if I get caught, I still come out with money in the bank. But how do you account for so many people simultaneously cheating over a protracted period of time? Even the person who exposed the cheating only did so after he left the team. Was every person involved, without exception, thinking only about their bank accounts. Did any of them go home after the parades and say to himself or his wife, "This sucks, we won because we cheated."? It is just inexplicable that the cheating participants would not think to themselves that none of this is going to be worth it if our cheating is exposed. And how could they think it would not be eventually given that players switch teams all the time?
60
@MRod America's first axiom: Snitches get stitches. It goes well beyond sports.
2
@MRod Who says it wasn't worth it? The players got away scot-free, and get to keep their championship.
@MRod
People who break the law largely believe they are smarter than anyone else, have a sense of entitlement based on greed or grievance, and make a seat-of-the-pants risk/ reward/ present value calculation.
In sports, winning pays, as you point out. Fans like winning, hard hits, long home runs, fast fastballs, and records so there is a market for cheating. There is now so much money in sports that cheating is highly lucrative.
2
I keep reading people's opinions that MLB came down hard on the Astros, but I can't help but keep thinking that they barely got a slap on the wrist. Every time there's a major scandal in MLB, we compare it to Pete Rose. In this case, it's an apt comparison. Rose was expelled from baseball simply for the conflict of interest that his betting posed. There was never any evidence that he cheated on the field to alter the outcome of a game. All of those involved int he sign stealing scandal influenced the outcome on the field. They turned losses to wins, outs to hits, scoreless innings to rallies. As such, they deflated the hopes of competing fanbases, changed the fortunes of opposing players they victimized, and over-inflated their own value contract value.
For these reasons, not only should their championships be stripped, but every player, coach and staffer who was aware and didn't report it should be banned for life, and their wins and stats purged from the record books. It should be as though the careers of these people never existed. Additionally, the team should be put in the hands of an independent trust and sold, with the owner banned as well.
If Pete Rose is still out, then removing these individuals permanently should be a no-brainer.
1
A sports fanatic for most of my 50 years, I've slowly but surely lost much of my zeal for games, even those featuring my beloved Boston teams.
Maybe it's the price of raising children and working a busy job and not having much spare time. Maybe it's the crass commercialism of pro and even college sports. Maybe it's the performance-enhancing drugs. Maybe it's the cheating, big and small. I still root, root, root for my home teams, but I'm now resigned to looking at sports as nothing more than entertainment.
If these paid entertainers want to bend rules by playing with a baseball that is wound tighter to be hit farther or a football that has less air, well, it's the same as a singer using technology to enhance her tired voice on stage. Is it right? Not really, but I can't help but shrug my shoulders and hope that my kids will not cross more dubious lines when they play sports. Determining what those lines are might be harder as technology advances. Ultimately it might boil down to what is in an athlete's heart.
30
@Albert "...and hope that my kids will not cross more dubious lines when they play sports."
...or in their business practices, or in their social relations, or in their family affairs...
2
To me the binary choice of cheating versus fair play doesn't give an accurate picture of the way these games are played.
A more nuanced comparison might take into account that sports strategy basically consists of trying to figure out what the other team is up to. When a runner on first scrutinizes the pitcher for signs that will tip off what he plans to do, a slight nod towards the plate indicates that he intends to throw over to first, for instance, or, in football, a barely perceptible shift in a defensive linebackers feet signaling that a blitz is coming, are all honest attempts at figuring out the other teams plans. Scrutinizing a coachs hand signals with a video camera to steal signs or play calls is perhaps crossing over a line into the realm of cheating but doesn't seem like a cut and dry issue of right and wrong.
7
@16inchesOC Oh, it is cut-and-dry when you leave the arena and try to suss the structural elements. Let's keep trying to parse ourselves into a fog of moral relativism, a Heisenburg loss of material reality, where it and we all are just probabilities of conduct.
11
@16inchesOC
When the rule is designed to outlaw video or electronic forays into stealing the said signs or shifts, then it is pretty cut and dried. It's cheating.
14
@16inchesOC, As Dwight Shrute would say, Incorrect! I just don't know how you can compare reading the body language of your opponent play to play, to the illegal, long term systematic, team-wide, electronically-assisted sign stealing. What the Astros and Red Sox did was equivalent to placing a hidden microphone in the bench of your basketball opponent to listen in on their strategies.
2
If Ben Johnson can be stripped of his Olympic gold medal, then Barry Bonds can be stripped of his home run title and The Astros can be stripped of their pennant.
135
@Brad The World Series championship is not a penant.
2
@Brad Those cases involved individuals and punished only those involved (and Bonds wasn't officially stripped of anything, incidentally). When you're talking about a team title, it involves so many more people, including those who may not have been party to the "crime." Do you punish them as well as the paying customers for what a handful of individuals did? I think not.
2
@Brad And reimburse their financial winnings
3
If MLB does not remove the WS title from Houston then they will have negated all we thought we'd learned from the Black Sox scandal.
As kids we used to chant "Cheaters never win!" It was an ideal that quite likely arose from those dark days of 1919.
Now, in allowing the Astros to keep the Trophy and rings, MLB has chosen to negate that childhood belief and truly teach us that the our society has changed; and not for the better.
96
@George To cite your example, the results of the 1919 Series were not changed. The penalties were invoked on individuals only, not the entire franchise.
6
@George - Trump is President. Cheaters win.
8
@George The 1919 Reds didn't vacate their title which they, theoretically, only won because the Black Sox lost on purpose.
Cheating in anything is not a new concept. As long as there have been rules, there have always been those looking for an advantage or even a way to circumvent the rules. This is nothing "new". There is a saying amongst professional football veterans that no one is sure if there has ever been a play where a penalty has not occurred. All that is new about cheating is the way in which it takes place - like using new technologies or new drugs.
There will always be those that see the end result as a justification for the way in which it is achieved.
1) Sign stealing is a legal and accepted as part of the game except when using technology.
2) MLB places cameras everywhere and video playback machines just off the dugout.
3) Video playback machines are staffed by the teams themselves during the regular season but MLB personnel during playoffs.
It is clearly cheating. Punishments should go to coaches, GMs, players and organizations.
MLB, given the three elements described above, ought to be a little less sanctimonious and a bit more self-critical when issuing punishments. MLB's own decisions made this type of cheating easy and almost inevitable.
4
The ESPN morning radio crew as spent the last two days excusing the actions, acting as broad apologists, and avoiding any dialogue about how worrisome such actions are. The problem with sports is that so many who report on sports were athletes and are ready to excuse and apologize for others' actions. Journalists are an increasingly rare hire at ESPN and thus the discussion remains one of friendly, lightweight discussion with few harsh words. The "ESPN baseball expert" was busy expressing her hope that this event would not hurt baseball like the strike did in the early 1990s. Players were also involved and there is no indication any players will be held accountable.
2
@The Perspective What about the players who were "victims" of the cheaters? Dodger pitchers branded as "chokers" because they lost key games in the playoffs/World Series?
I'm still waiting for the Astros to do something about Guriel's racial mocking of Yu Darvish.
If the trophy and win are not removed from the cheating teams, MLB has lowered itself to the phony exhibition not unlike Old TV wrestling and the so-called reality shows that we know are scripted and edited.
Phony entertainment, not sports.
9
Please also carefully check to see if the Red Sox cheated in 2007, and if yes, rescind their World Series title of that year as well. Maybe my then runner-up Rockies are World Champions after all?
3
Why is it possible to steal signs with the methods Cora arranged? Why isn't there electronic communication between the catcher and pitcher? I'm thinking of something more sophisticated than having the catcher say, "Alexa, send me a curveball." Why can't the catcher have a wrist pad with buttons that sends a signal to an ear bud worn by the pitcher?
3
What is most sad to me is the very notion of what sports, baseball in particular, really are: Games that youths played on the vacant lot down the street for the singular reason that doing so was "fun."
3
Fairness in MLB is basically a facade in any event. The vast disparity in spending by the competing teams with only minor slaps on the wrist for the largest spenders, and tanking for years in order to keep team payroll down (and in hope of a higher draft pick) make a mockery of that concept. It is more a show sport than one with equality.
7
Why would I spend a $100 for a day at the park - if there is any doubt the game I am witnessing is scammed? What happened to Pete Rose (permanent ban), should apply to everyone involved, including the owners (they approve everything, how else did they get wealth).
After all, isn't it only fair to the fans and Pete Rose.
16
The Houston Astros’ sign-stealing scheme could be the apex of the cheating era. Or maybe that’s just the way things are now in sports. Or maybe, just maybe, it’s the way things always were and always will be.
5
@Jeff I would say that Spygate was the apex. A video department devoted to cross referencing video with clock and hand signals to make a template and know exactly what the other defense is up to while every other QB has to figure it out with his eyes, ears and brain on the fly. A Pats backup QB said the first time they used it (in a preseason game against Carolina 2001), it was 95% accurate, and they knew they had something. Anyone who really delved into this story knows the Pats first 3 titles are illegitimate. The team didn't even handover the tapes until a week after they were demanded. I also recall several articles on major sports websites had redacted damning sections of reporting with a small postscript acknowledging that the article had been modified (NFL directed??). They should have been barred from the league for a year. But the league buried the tapes and other evidence because the league can't have fans thinking the games are rigged - especially bettors. I doubt they ever stopped to be quite honest...
I'm far less interested in sports now then I ever have been. It's all just too cynical - it's supposed to be an escape from the real world and cheating liars (like Trump!), and it's just more of the same.
Thanks cheaters!
What about all of the players who participated in this conspiracy to cheat for the Astros and Red Sox? Why aren't they being punished? The World Series titles for 2017 and 2018 should be vacated and granted to the other teams.
16
@Doc Perez I think there should be a declaration that there were no winners for the World Series in 2017 and 2018. And that the ALCS championships for those years should be awarded to the teams that "lost."
5
@Doc Perez The players given immunity in exchange for their testimony. And whom would you award the vacated titles to? The Yankees or the Dodgers.
Professional sports does not exist without paying fans. It is far fetched to think that enough fans will stop buying tickets or watching the games to change things. The owners know this and have little interest in genuinely policing their sport. But the biggest revenue source for many teams is advertising, so fans can boycott products or companies if they want to bring about real change. Owners will listen to corporations.
2
Non-baseball fan here.
Commentators and reporters have yet to explain why sign-stealing is against the rules. It's like if in soccer they outlawed listening to the other team's coach. Teams should expect their signs to be stolen just like they expect the opponent to try to score points.
3
@Andrew Roberts A big part of the pitching game is keeping the hitter guessing about what pitch is coming. Without that, the batter has an unfair advantage. A big league hitter's batting average could easily jump by one hundred points if he knows consistently what pitch is coming.
3
@Andrew Roberts Sign stealing is an accepted and legal part of the game. The issue is that they were using technology to steal the signs rather than player/coach observation. Using technology is explicitly against MLB rules.
1
@Andrew Roberts
Uggghhh. That it has to be explained is depressing.
1
After all the cheating and scandals, it's become increasingly farcical that Barry Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame. He was juiced at the same time as everyone else, particularly guys who got into the HoF ahead of him.
4
@Roarke "same as everyone else"? I think not. Most did not juice. Bonds made a visible mockery of the sport. As a major force, he could have been a role model instead of a Pillsbury Dough Boy roll model. He has no place in the HOF and never will.
1
Getting Barry Bonds was a major priority for many members of the media... They absolutely hated him.
What they didn’t expect was that he was just one of hundreds of juicers, so many media darling got involuntary caught too (Clemens, Pettite, Big Pappy, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, Palmeiro, etc).
1
Sports are for children. When alleged adults get interested, especially to spice up their drab, meaningless lives because they're too lazy to do it themselves, it it any surprise things like this happen? It's been like this throughout history, or do people think all the gladiators were fighting fair?
The more misery and angst this creates, the better to chase people back to their real lives doing adult things, like how to vote like an adult.
5
@Baxter
What do you do for entertainment? Do you go to the movies, watch television, read crime novels, attend rock concerts or comedy shows? Maybe not. Maybe you just work, or at the end of a long day of serious adult activity you study property zoning policy and read the Economist. and the Financial Times. That would seem like a drab life in need of spicing up.
1
Considering how the rule of law has been dumbed down to my side is winning maybe this is teaching the correct lesson for today's America. Just cheat and steal your way to wealth and fame and nobody will really care or at least you still get to keep your wealth and the trophy.
3
If the Astros cheated to get where they got, their titles should be revoked, their place in the standings should be demoted to last place, and all who benefited from playoff and World Series money should have to return it.
Asterisk that!
12
This article combines many unrelated themes that make you confused about what he is trying to tell us.
But I will confine to baseball and Astros.
I am an Astros fan of many years - actually decades.
Have lived with them when hardly anyone went to their games even when Nolan Ryan pitched for them.
To the level were folks talked about Astros dynasty of repeat appearances in the World Series - something similar to Yankees.
Well, it's all out the window and into a trash can.
I will support the Commissioner if he voids Astros only World Series title.
I was also disappointed that knowing the names of Astros players - he did nothing except naming Beltran.
There is a video on the web where this fan has taken pains to put a video of Springer and Altuve at the plate.
While it is not conclusive because you don't see the trash can being banged - it is clear they were looking for a signal from the dugout everytime they stepped up to the plate.
If the Commissioner had some of these players fess up as he reports - he needs to out them and punish them.
This punishment meted out - is rather lame.
The players must also be punished - not about sending a message but to tell these perpetrators - this is NOT acceptable.
31
@Neil Good for you. Spoken like a true fan of the game.
3
@gene c
Agreed.
Thank you Neil for your honesty and ability to see the lack of sportsmanship that your team participated in.
As a longtime A's fan, it has been really tough the last few seasons chasing the Astros.
Going further back, I was ashamed to hear of the juicing/PED use of the A's during their McGwire/Canseco era and one of our starting pitchers Frankie Montas this past season. Suffice to say, I absolutely do not condone ANY of it!
1
Hmmm...where did they learn it from? The Belichick/Brady Patriots?
6
This isn't newsworthy, who cares.
Compared to the disgrace of teams hiring domestic abusers and justifying it in any way possible, this is a non issue.
The Astros hired a pitcher who is a domestic abuser, and no one there really cares as long as they are making money and they also are all men who probably don't actually care if a woman is beaten up.
2
We see cheating in every aspect of life now: politics, education, relationships. Why would sports be immune to it? The ends justifies the means, unfortunately, though it shouldn't.
2
@Bill Heghlee
I know it feels like there is more cheating now, but my guess is that the rate of cheating in every facet of life is the same as before and has been the same since humans began walking the earth. after all, we've had the same brain for millennia
1
Teams that are found guilty of cheating should have their titles stripped. The history books should say "No Champion - Cheating" so that it isn't forgotten. The Houston Asterisks (ack: Gregg Wiggins) don't even deserve being mentioned.
12
How about the 51 Giants? Bobby Thompson and the shot heard round the world. Thompson himself admitted they used a telescope in the clubhouse (which overlooked centerfield) to steal signs. Do they get an asterisk?
3
@Earl M Only if his claims are substantiated by an investigation.
1
I guess it's pretty obvious that Yankees fans, who have not seen their team win a World Series for a decade, like the idea of stripping teams of their championships, because they think it doesn't impact them. But it should. If we do go that route, then the Yankees teams should lose their championships from 1996-2000, because of steroids. Somehow I think if that's a possibility, Yankees fans will suddenly become less enthusiastic for the idea.
Also, I'm just amazed how many Yankees fans think their team hitting all those home runs, has nothing to do with sign stealing. My bet is the Yankees will hit far fewer next year...
2
@Fan This has nothing to do with the Yankees. And all teams used steroids, not just the Yankees. Why the hate? What team do you support?
1
Pete Rose was banned for life for betting on baseball games(including ones in which he played/managed). Essentially, he severely damaged the integrity of the game and was held accountable. I don't see how those players/managers/coaches/GMs who willingly knew about and participated in these sign-stealing schemes have done anything less damaging to the integrity of baseball than Pete Rose.
I rarely agree with the NCAA, but this is an area in which they get things right. Team-wide infractions frequently result in the entire season being vacated - like it never happened. I suspect World Series titles being vacated and witting participants facing serious suspensions or outright bans is the only way for MLB to send a clear signal to everyone - fans, players, coaches - that this behavior won't be tolerated.
5
In big time sports everyone is looking for an edge. In college football there was once Notre Dame faking injuries to stop the clock when they were behind near the end of a game. Even now fans sometimes wonder if injuries late in a game are real or not.
4
It's not just sports, it's human nature. Doing it the right way is just too hard. Over the years, one by one, my heroes have been shown not to be who I thought they were and I'm now left with only a few good ones. Perhaps that what makes them so special. They had the opportunity but chose to do it the right way. Awards are nice but its more important how you got there.
6
@John L It's not hard to do it the right way. Just no one will accomplish quite as much but doing it the right way. In theory the accomplishments relative to other competitors will still be impressive. But humans also have this other quality "greed" which means that sometimes it's just not good enough...
@Daniel Obviously, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it the right way, or do we ignore all of recorded human history on the subject of 'fairness' and 'religion'?
Theory dies at the hands of human emotions.
1
To me the biggest surprise is that this is even considered cheating. Every single baseball game I have watched on TV in the last 20 years has featured an extreme closeup of the catcher giving the signal before every pitch. Many broadcasts have a former pitcher or catcher as an analyst telling the viewer what is coming next. Every modern ballpark has televisions in the box seat section showing the local broadcast of the game. Any team could just have a "fan" sit on either side in plain sight of a left-handed or right-handed hitter and signal which pitch is coming next. How much of an advantage did this give the Astros anyway? Their road batting statistics were better than their home statistics. Also, baseball needs to do something for hitters. Every team now has four or five relief pitchers who throw 100 mph plus, and every team utilizes extreme fielding shifts to rob hitters of what would have been singles or doubles. Baseball is getting boring: strikeout, home run or sharply hit ball right at somebody's glove.
7
@Dave that it gave an advantage or not is besides the point. Morally deficient people will always make excuses for cheaters. Just because I cheat off of someone that gets me a C- in a test doesn't justify the cheating.
8
@Roy I disagree that stealing a catcher's signals makes you a "morally deficient" person. It's sort of like going 45 miles per hour when the speed limit is 25. Lots of people do it and if you get caught you get a fine and your insurance rates go up, but you don't lose your license or get thrown in jail.
Ray Lewis was a "morally deficient" person who paid NO penalty for much much worse than stealing a catcher's signs! I am not convinced that the Astros are the only team doing this. Do the people who get caught deserve to be penalized? Yes. Were these penalties way over-excessive? Definitely.
@Dave The television broadcasts of the game are generally on a slight delay, which renders sign stealing in real time moot.
2
The Astros world championship title should be taken away from them. Because 50-60 years from now, when people look at past World Series winners and they see nothing in 2017, they will ask "What happened in 2017?" And the question will be answered that they cheated. This should be a deterrent to any team that tries to gain an unfair advantage.
50
What about the Giants in 51, who used a telescope in centerfield?
2
@ Carl Asros shouldn't have cheated, disappointed they did. Carl you also willing to give back all the games and championships the Yankees won around the turn of the century when half their team was on steriods?
@mlwarren54
My teams don't win championships so I can't get caught up in this.
But I think you are proving the point of the article. Cheating is prevalent everywhere in all of these sports. The problem is that we as a society are embracing your "whataboutism" attitude instead of condemning the behavior and demanding a punishment that would discourage future behavior.
1
As a Met fan, I’m still smoldering about the improbable division titles won by the Phillies in 2007 and 2008, especially since the Phillies won the World Series in 2008. Not long after, the Phillies were caught stealing signs using binoculars from the bullpen (this article makes a passing reference to the scandal), and it then emerged that the Mets had accused them of this practice during those back-to back catastrophic Septembers in 2007 and 2008. I don’t recall Philadelphia paying much of a price.
But then again, how about those super-juiced 1986 Mets? And speaking of super-juiced teams, there were also the 1989 As and 2007 Red Sox. These are just the few I can think of - surely, there were at least a couple more.
Cheating is clearly ubiquitous in sports, whether via drugs, surveillance, equipment altering or match fixing. We probably only ever hear about a tiny fraction of what takes place.
However, cheating occurs across life: politics, business, education, marriage...it’s everywhere!
4
@NA Wilson Get tough! No cheating in baseball! And if found cheating, strip the titles and the individual records.
In the 2000's powerhouse Italian football team Juventus saw two championship titles revoked and were expelled from Italy's top league for their role in a cheating scandal.
5
I watch sports. I like baseball, basketball and football. In football the defense cheats all the time, the whole game.
They pull on the jerseys and face masks of the receivers. The offensive linemen hold. If the referee called it every time, the game wouldn’t have any flow.
So when the NE Patriots get caught cheating they get a slap on the wrist if anything at all. And then they win and no one puts the two things together.
So now we know that the Houston Astros cheat as well. If you cheat and win then you got away with it. That’s the ethos of professional sports.
4
I am unclear as to why doing research to “steal signs” (figuring out a game plan of your opponent) is illegal with technology but perfectly legal if a coach catches on. This is part of the reason that baseball is becoming obsolete yet the NFL, NBA and soccer continue to thrive. Add on top of it this anti-doping scheme which hasn’t done much and you see that baseball hasn’t evolved with the times or their demographic.
You’re a little confused about what stealing signs means.
1
Every team that ' lost' to these cheating MLB 'championships' schemes was robbed.
Every fan who ' wasted' their money watching these schemers ' beat' their home team were lied to and robbed.
12
Nothing new. Watch the 1932 Marx Bros. movie Horse Feathers.
There’s too much money bet on sports for it not to be suspect.
5
Probably not ethically responsible to taint all sports. Baseball, football and the olympics are the worst offenders. But, it is interesting to note that New England was implicated in two sports. This is bad for sports and the championships of these cheaters are all tainted and the players should be judged similarly to steroids era players as cheaters and not rewarded for the championships earned by these cheaters in regards to HOF.
And most of all, basketball and soccer should be praised for their lack of cheating scandals.
1
Vacate the titles. Ban Beltrán. But since the cheaters were given immunity for telling the truth, they cannot be punished. So. For the Houston Cheaters and Boston Blowhards a special hard team salary cap is created that is 15-20% below the soft baseball cap. It is in place for the 2021 and 2022 seasons. Baseball needs to wreck these teams into mediocrity at best.
1
@Eric Harold
Mr. Harold,
Is your "solution" justice or revenge? Just Sayin'!
Baseball has long had cheating at its core. Even the miraculous 1951 pennant run of the Giants and Thompson’s home run is tainted by a telescope that was brought over from Wrigley Field is a product of cheating with 1950’s technology.
https://sabr.org/research/durocher-spymaster-how-much-did-giants-prosper-cheating-1951-finalist
3
As a Universit yof Louisville fan, I have first hand experience with a title being taken away. Although that 2013 National Champion banner may not hang in the Yum! Center anymore, we still won that game and tournament fair and square.
2
The title is tainted and that's probably enough punishment. Each one of those players will have to spend the rest of their lives answering questions about it in every interview. Every time the 2017 World Series is mentioned this incident will come up. Who won the 1919 World Series? Most people can't recall. They sure know who lost.
6
I wish I could share your idea of players and teams being punished for past deeds; however, if you look at this year’s Hall of Fame ballot it is clear that MLB only has rewards for those that break the rules.
1
@Rick R
If it was up to me I would ban all involved players for life. I was simply accepting the fact that will not happen and trying to look for some justice. On the other hand, the HOF does not include Clemans, Bonds or McGwire. All three would have been first ballot inductees based on their stats only.
After these revelations I will always consider the 2017 World Series champions to be the Houston Asterisks. (Has a ring to it, doesn't it?)
13
I’m a Houstonian and that just made me laugh. And sadly, you’re not wrong.
2
How can players, coaches, fans & owners feel any pride or sense of accomplishment when their title is unearned? Stolen? It is fraud committed against sponsors, media, owners & ticket holders. They did not get what they paid for. They should be criminally prosecuted by the federal government. They must have broken 100 interstate commerce laws.
9
It is proper for MLB baseball to take action against those who break the rules like this issue. One can debate whether it it too or not severe enough.
Having said that, when major league baseball should have done something was with the PED scandal circa 1990-2010 they did nothing and still have not today.
IMO, with the exception of the corrupting power of money, the PED scandal was baseball's biggest black eye in history.
Anybody judged guilty by the federal commission should be stripped of any awards, records and HOF honors.
The only ones doing anything now are baseball writers denying the biggest cheaters like Clemens, Bonds etc entry in the hall.
7
The inaction in the steroid scandal was due to the incompetence of the former commissioner.
1
@Earl M thank you four your reply. There is plenty of blame to go around. In addition to him, the owners, the gms, the coaches, the players, the fans, the media including the ny times and big money corporations.
Everybody was making money off it. It is similar to Tiger Woods, tremendous circumstantial evidence he was on PEDS, but all the above kept quiet because everybody was enjoying his play and/or making money from it.
When he retires and nobody is making money off of him, look for somebody to rat him out.
1
The best way to deter cheating is to strip the Astros of their title. It is obviously an ill-gotten gain. If the Red Sox or any other team is found cheating, then their title should be stripped from them as well.
44
@Andrew P. Then the NY Giants (baseball) should be stripped of their NL title in 1951. Branca always said that Thompson knew the pitch for the "shot heard round the world" and recently Giants players confirmed it.
When Whitey Ford threw spitballs during the world series (as he was known to do) wasn't he cheating? Should the Yankee titles be rescinded? What if he threw 50 of them? When a linebacker intentionally makes an illegal hit isn't that cheating? Where do you draw the line?
4
@David
The Giants 1951 miraculous pennant run and Thomson’s home run are a product of sign stealing cheating with a telescope in the clubhouse. That telescope had been brought over to the Giants by Hank Schenz who owned it and brought it over from Wrigley Field where Chicago had been using it to chest. Don’t believe it? Google it.
1
@Bill I believe it. People have been trying to steal signs since they were first used in baseball.
1
At the very least, VACATE. Baseball dropped the ball and it fell through the floor. The fact Houston got away with banging a tin can---are you kidding me? Maybe if they used a xylophone it would have been more obvious. The point is the fans caught this ball in the stands, a savagely ripped foul that no one ever thought to corral with protective wire.
Baseball MUST restore its dignity. Baseball relies on the grandness we attach to it, the memories. If the Astros and Red Sox are allowed to hang onto sham titles, the game will lose its integrity. It isn't about an owner firing an executive and a manager; it's about the loss of character, a shattering of the dream that people are playing a sport with grace and dignity unscathed. That didn't happen. The bad guys won. . The game struck out. The only thing that will restore the fan's trust is to vacate the titles. Baseball wasn't good enough these two years to somehow award a title to cheaters. It failed. Allowing them to hold onto them even when they are caught red-handed would be the biggest cheat of all.
No one knows how much the cheating contributed to the outcome. But it did. And it must be put in its place so the fans see integrity on the scoreboard again. Don't insult us any more. Let us have our beautiful dream again, let us show our kids there is a price for desecrating the game and you will stand up for it. Clean the slate. VACATE.
10
Men's sports are too corrupt and brutal to be entertaining. A proxy for oppression.
1
Why restrict the question to sports? That’s the way it now is in most aspects of society...winning is all that matters.
11
@Patrick alexander
Yes, that YOUR team wins. It doesn't matter how. It doesn't matter what rules are violated. It can be the rules of a game, an election or the constitution. Rules are for suckers and losers evidently.
It breaks my heart and I do what I can to not be weighed down with despair.
5
Technology can easily solve this problem. In the NFL, plays are signaled to QB's via a dedicated electronic connection. I assume the messages are scrambled and unscrambled so play stealing is impossible.
This system could easily be incorporated into the pitcher/catcher communication system. No need to operate with a 19th century system.
6
@Richie except the catcher and batter are right there in the same space. So voice is out. Would the catcher have to fat finger codes into a device with his catchers mitt?
@Chris NFL play calls require voice because they are much more complicated than "fast ball", "slider" "curve". It would not be a voice thing, instead "1,2,3" and "yes, no" controlled with buttons on the glove of the pitcher and catcher or some such system.
Every other industry and business has some sort of quality control and supervision
How is it that MLB always waits until they are caught to look into anything?
The Astros so brazenly cheated for so long how could MLB have not been aware?
They chose to look the other way as they did with steroids. Then it comes out and it causes a crisis
How about creating an oversight area that actually looks into things earlier?
8
@steve h
Yes, oh so quaint. Look, this is just one more sign of the times. The pay for winning has gone up astronomically, so the payoff to cheating has gone up in tandem. Meanwhile, the regulators are somewhat asleep at the switch, and when this is noticed, only years laters, they somewhat reluctantly. decide to announce that it is a problem.
But by FAR the biggest problem, and this is also rampant in our system, is that the cost of getting caught never seems to go up. In finance, no one goes to jail. No one is responsible, or accountable. And IF there are fines, they are pathetically low, so its simply looked at as a cost of doing business.
You only need to fix one thing here. Start making the fines hurt, or heaven forfend, send some people to jail. That will change behaviors quickly. But we just can't seem to bring ourselves to this, and instead, have decided to let the almight $ rule, and we bring ourselves collectively lower as a society, that gradually steps further and further away from any concept of morality or ethical behavior.
That our leader champions this is merely a reflection of who we have become. Perhaps we deserve four more years of this, just so that one day we might have to reap what we have sown.
25
I'm a bit confused as to why this is considered cheating. The signalling as done in a public arena, where one doesn't expect the right of privacy. If the signals can be seen, is there an actual rule that they can't be transmitted to the batter? If no rule, then no foul.
2
@David
The issue isn’t stealing signs.
That’s allowed
The issue is using electronics.
Beltran was known to be able to steal signs. Where he crossed the line was working with Cora on using electronics.
30
@Blue But why is that such a big deal? People use hearing aids - is that cheating? I don't think the issue is using electronics - except to say that someone arbitrarily decided using electronics was somehow unfair. I mean, come on. Why isn't the pitcher and catcher being taken to task for using such easily decrypted signals? They ought to just come up with better signals. I bet an ASL signer could give them some ideas.
Not that there hasn't been cheating and lying before, but since 2016 it has intensified, trickling down from the top, the President of the U.S.
It must influence our children - they can't help being "taught" that cheating and lying are O.K. and nothing matters but winning, if our sports and political leaders are frequently doing it, and largely getting away with it.
48
@Roy G. Biv, love your username. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo & Violet. I remember that spectrum mnemonic from high school physics.
2
@Roy G. Biv , What? It's Trump's fault, too?
1
@Ryan Bingham
The President is traditionally expected to act as a role model in America. Wasn't Bill Clinton's Oval Office sexcapade disappointing? tRump acts like an advertisement for The Seven Deadly Sins. Birds of a feather...
3
The correct outcome is to vacate the title and leave it empty.
But as Jim Crane declares his title isn’t tainted, and the owners cower in response, that simply won’t happen.
They should all be banned for life.
19
Given the prevalence of these ethically challenged leaders in sports, imagine what it is like in medicine, industry, politics, military, churches, universities, and just about any other institution in modern America.
8
You see the same wrist slapping with corporations: Volkswagen and other car manufacturers used emissions cheating tech because the money was worth the risk of getting caught.
Governments should have taken away at least half the profits made by it to deter future cheating.
15
When a championship comes from cheating
Instead of from fairly competing
We become the losers
And teams our abusers
Whose grip on our faith will be fleeting
8
"Say it ain't so, Joe!" the little boy is said to have yelled at Shoeless Joe Jackson during the 1919 Black Sox cheating scandal that changed ML baseball. They 'shaved' runs as later BB players would shave points, losing to help gamblers.
"Just win, Baby!" Al Davis, Oakland Raiders owner.
How can you fix such cultures? Coaches are paid to win. Linemen are paid to crush QB's. If fined, they will make it in multiples up in their next contract. Playing dirty for fun and profit at all levels. The current preferred method is Don't Get Caught!
How can you fix such cultures? Not by blaming individual employees in team cultures. To change the culture start changing the billionaire owners. That will get the attention of organizations, top to bottom. Leagues: Police Thyselves!
16
Beltran must go, of course, and he can kiss HOF goodbye (and good riddance).
4
Only time will tell where this is heading. Nothing lasts forever, and professional sports in this country are going to look a lot different in 2120, no matter what. In what way? Who knows? Maybe it will all just be entertainment, like professional wrestling, with no pretense of fairness or actual competition.
For the present, what matters is the bottom line. If cheating scandals start to affect revenues, we'll see harsher and harsher punishments. Which, I think, is appropriate. If another MLB team is caught stealing signs, for example, I would expect MLB to turn the screws tighter, with lifetime bans and stripped-away titles.
And given the expansion of sports betting, lower revenues are a distinct possibility, if cheating continues. Not many bettors are going to risk money if they think the games might be rigged, unless they're in on the fix. Wouldn't it be ironic if gambling saves the integrity of professional sports?
6
@Dave
Indeed it would.
1
@Dave Excellent point, I never thought about the gambling expansion. MLB is already struggling with ratings, I wonder how both of these scandals will play out in regards to views. Most likely not good.
2
"Stealing signs in baseball is as old as the game..."
So is stealing bases, and absolutely has nothing to do with this issue as does stealing signs by players on base. Why journalists, especially sports writers, try to link these at all is crazy.
"Their fortunes are tied together.” This sentence is the root of all of this for all sports. The reason illicit drug use is still prevalent not just in professional sports, but also through college, high school, and other amateur sports. There is literally no real penalties, just future money or college scholarships at stake.
And by the way, as far as his ""..the children are watching,” he said. “So it becomes a question of how do you want to raise your kids?" : has anyone watched the parents of children athletes over the last 30 years? A "fair game" is so "OK Boomer".
7
The World Series titles should be withdrawn for both the Astros and Red Sox, and given to the Dodgers. (I’m a Giants fan ). They do this in the olympics when a medalist is stripped (next person in line moves up); why not for baseball? The Astros and ‘18 Red Sox titles now have zero value to any serious baseball fan. The $5 million fine is a joke. I won’t go to a game or watch one for at least a few seasons in protest to this disaster and mishandling by MLB. And Pete Rose remains banished from MLB and the Hall?! BTW, let Dave Parker in the Hall; his absence is an utter disgrace. Nuff said.
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@Frank
Can you show any effect the cheating had on either the BoSox or the Astros?
Have the Dodgers ever not choked in a big moment? Kershaw and Jensen blow it regularly with teams other than the Sox and Astros, etc.
Any Giants players use roids? Vacate those titles!
The evidence is overwhelming. Circumstantial but convincing. Can you directly prove that performance enhancing drugs directly led to Lance Armstrong’s Tour victories or Bonds’ herculean stats? No; but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and they acted illegally (as per their sport’s rules). Kershaw and Jensen are two of the best pitchers in baseball; when pitches are tipped the advantage goes to the batter. I’m not aware of any steroid allegations toward any member of the ‘10, ‘12, or ‘14 titles.
1
There is no question that “sign stealing “ has gone on during the entire history of baseball. But if we are proposing taking away a title from Houston , or Boston, and I have no dog in this fight, then what about the New York Yankees 2009 World Series victory which was one of the most juiced up steroid teams in history?
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@Mitchell myrin
Yes! And as a Phillies fan, I would really like that.
2
@Mitchell myrin
I'll grant you Alex Rodriguez, but what information on steroid use do you have on the rest of the players on that team? For that matter, what do you know about the steroid use of the Phillies team, which was the Yankees' opponent that year?
4
@Mitchell myrin
There has never been real time sign stealing with a camera system, with one exception, the shot heard round the world. Sign stealing by human observation from second base is hard and the pitchers know how to defend that. until some of the rumours started the pitchers against the Astros had no idea the signs were being stolen by camera.
Bringing up steroids is a lame excuse to defend the Astro's. Steroids, for the most part, were done in private by the players and there was no fool proof way for teamamtes to know for sure. The entire Astro team was aware of this fraud and they either participated or enabled it.
PASPA, (Professional And Amateur Sports Protection Act), went into effect on Jan 1, 1992.
The law was overturned by the US Supreme Court on May 14, 2018.
A recent tweet from the American Gaming Association noted that American bettors have legally wagered more than $10 billion on sports since the fall of PASPA in May 2018. And that's just the legal betting.
With that much money at stake, unethical, unsportsmanlike and criminal activity is to be expected.
This site has more details:
https://www.legalsportsreport.com/35373/winners-losers-10-billion-us-sports-betting/
Can we just call them the Houston Asterisks?
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@EJ 'Nati
A lot of comments here are from Yankee-centric fans, who would love to take any titles from their arch-enemies, Astros and Red Sox.
I have a hard time believing this was such a sacrosanct cheating episode.
An idiot banging tin cans, didn't get noticed? or was this just "acceptable, everyone steals" part of the baseball culture?
3
Both Houston and Boston cheated and won games and championships because of the cheating. This is not in question. What is in question is why those titles still remain with the teams that cheated to ‘win’ them.
Baseball is sending a message to children that cheating is not only ok but rewarded, the same way they sent a message to children that using PEDs is not only ok but rewarded.
13
Both the Astros' and the Red Sox should have their World Series titles taken away from them.
You may not be able to bestow those titles upon their opponents but they cheated during those games and should not be allowed to keep those titles.
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@BTO Astros players should also forfeit every penny from their World Series bonus—around $25 million.
27
@BTO
Ok,
But let's not be "selective" who we going to punish.
The Yankee-by your standards-should lose at least 2 titles. Two of their pitchers admitted to doping for years: Clemens and Pettitte. Lest we forget the notorious Chemical-aka-Alex Rodriguez and Jason Giambi.
17
@proffexpert
Now, that is a great idea! Hit them where it hurts! Everyone hates to give up money. "That's why they call it money."
2
It's time for MLB to take away the World Series trophies from cheaters as the Tour de France and others did with Lance Armstrong.
37
Lance Armstrong was rightly penalized for his doping but watching any NFL game can there be any doubt that these " athletes " are using performanceenhancing drugs. Everyone including the public pretends that it's not so but it so obviously is. Anyone that seriously trains knows that you don't get that way by ordinary means. You have to have a " little help from your friends "
5
I want to believe "joy and honor" still reside in most of the players; however, "it's the money stupid" for some, and they
give professional sports a black eye
9
There are so many examples of why the colloquialism "Cheaters never prosper" should have been eulogized long ago. I can't help it, in my mind all such moral tests today lead to Dirty DJ Trump. To keep track of his cheating to get to the top would keep a team of 20 busy for their lifetimes. All such cheaters, whether in sports uniforms, reading signs, or in suits exploiting loopholes for personal gain, are in the same sad, but lucrative pile, at the top of the heap. Cheaters never prosper? Really, really? "Just win, baby". "Get over it". Thanks, Al. Thanks Dirty D.J.
59
I will never understand the mindset of people that cheat. If people have to cheat to win, they aren't really winners. They are CHEATERS.
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@susan The mindset of cheaters is not difficult to understand. Like criminals, they don't believe they'll be caught.
5
@susan Amen to that.
1
@susan You've probably never signed a $100 million contract before.
4
It’s adorable to think that sports will never be tainted by some sort of cheating. There’s too much money involved to play by the rules. Whether it is advanced analytics, moving in the right field fence to benefit your roster of left handed power hitters, drugs, video cameras, spitballs, defensive shifts or grooming the infield to cut down on bunts, teams will look for an edge.
It’s also adorable that the owners never face an consequences. A $5M fine is pocket change to these guys. They’ll just raise beer prices from $12 to $14.
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@steve h
But that's not really the point. I don't think anyone is saying that we can cultivate a society in which there are no cheaters. Mr. Drape certainly isn't in this article. Of course there will always be cheaters. The point is rule enforcement: when that erodes, we are simply surrendering the moral standard that should be the backbone of any institution, even one as essentially frivolous as professional sports (although Mr. Drape's comment on kids taking their cues from adults makes it maybe not so frivolous...). It's the same as saying there will always be crime in our society. Of course there will be and of course the rich get special treatment. Does that mean we stop trying to have an effective criminal justice system?
5
@steve h ‘Looking for an edge’ is a different category from cheating, namely, only one is a breaking of the laws/rules. Least sensible of all is putting defensive shifts in this collection. There has never been a game played without one team placing fielders in places they think will result in outs. There is nothing like a rule saying what the limits are of this most ordinary and sensible tactic.
Hasn't baseball always been involved in sign stealing? As far as I can recall, an opposing team would look and catalog signs routinely, however not using video or electronic tools. Isn't it the equivalent of identifying a tell in poker, as opposed to card counting? If so, the question is - is using electronic and video to steal signs the issue or is it the sign stealing itself?
1
A runner on base can steal signs from the catcher and relay to the batter; however, the use of anyone or anything off the field of play is illegal.
8
The electronic and video is the issue. It’s much harder to spot a sign from the dugout or second base and communicate to the batter before the pitch while batting then to hear a few taps from the dugout. However, stealing signs in general is a controversial issue so this sort of brazen system just highlights how blurry the lines are.
5
I vaguely remember an incident,way back in the sixties, when the Pirates were accused of having someone up in the scoreboard, with binoculars, allegedly stealing signs. It was pretty big news in the world of sports in those days. In this new world of instant replay technology and challenges, this isn't really shocking. Major league sports are the ultimate manifestation of "winning is everything." (Politics are a whole other story). This seems like an evolution of the modern day version of getting any kind of edge on the competition using whatever tools are available. The leagues are going to have to control this, they created it. The leagues allowed this technology to be used during games . I don't blame the players or coaches. With legal gambling in the mix,there is a lot of money to be made. None of us should be so naive to be shocked. Winning is the only thing,right?
Ever since the juiced home runs of going on 20 years now, I have a hard time being interested in any professional, Olympic, or college sports. I just assumed everyone is jacked to some degree so there is no semblance of reality. Long gone are the days of natural super humans like Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Don Newcombe, Nolan Ryan, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Jesse Owens, Edwin Moses, et al. Sports now are just the entertainment theatre of the absurd and no more “real” than WWE.
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This is why I like Basketball and Soccer, cheating doesn’t help you much when it’s all about skill and quick decision making.
@Erik Olson
Does increased speed and strength not give an advantage in soccer and basketball?
@Erik Olson
Cheating in basketball and soccer mostly involves flopping. Which for the benefit of everyone else as I am sure you are aware, is defined as pretending you were fouled or the foul was more egregious than it really was in order to get the ref to punish your opponent.
1