Some peoples are on the make, others are on the decline. This will change over time, but for now, the Chinese are making hay while the sun shines.
2
The PRC system stifles creativity and independent/critical thinking. It is unable to innovate as quickly as a free society. Everything they have is copied from the USA. There is no reason for them to change when being copycats (by stealing) served them so well. We really need to ratchet up our security to prevent further IP theft.
4
Watching Trump get to this treaty was like watching a surgeon perform open heart surgery with an ax and chain saw.
One of the great global institutions established over the decades is the World Trade Organization, which has a trade dispute settling mechanism. The US has won more victories through the WTO than any other country.
Could some of the victories noted in this treaty have been won at the WTO without the disruptive tariffs, the consequent recession in manufacturing investments and thousands of bankrupt farmers? You bet.
The world watched a bungling administration tripping over itself, shove the WTO aside and weakening it, and then holding up a pile of soybeans and beaming like a five-year-old.
5
China has been playing the long game, the US ( and other western countries) have been playing a very short game. US corporations are run by executives who get large financial rewards for short term results. Thus, they really are not good caretakers of the intellectual property of their own companies. The only way to truly protect US intellectual property is to not open factories in China. One way or another the Chinese will steal or absorb the know how no matter what the trade deals stipulate. Good luck to US companies that try to enforce trade deal provisions via the Chinese legal system. Don't expect their legal system to evolve to western standards. Chinese leaders have no interest in moving in that direction. Everything China has agreed to purchase in this trade deal is stuff they would have bought anyway, e.g., food and petroleum. We should also rethink having so many Chinese national science and engineering students and researchers in our universities and research laboratories. All of our basic scientific research is going to flow back into China. Finally, we need to understand that China has a different culture and values than the West. What we consider unfair, cheating or stealing they many consider competitive business and fair game. They understand us much better than we understand them.
1
"Sometimes China requires foreign companies to form joint ventures with local firms in order to do business there, as in the case of the auto industry."
The article doesn't explain the terms of the legal agreements forming those joint ventures. In particular, trade secrets should be dealt with explicitly in the agreement.
"Foreign lawyers say the new rules have large loopholes."
The Times should quote an intellectual property lawyer BY NAME.
Here is a quote from the abstract of a paper on the subject:
"The IP issues involved in forming, operating, and (inevitably) terminating a joint venture or collaboration are much more numerous than would typically apply to a straightforward investment in an organic growth, or on a merger or acquisition. The pitfalls are also more insidious."
Intellectual property issues in joint ventures and collaborations
by Nigel Parker
Journal of Intellectual Property Law & Practice, November 2007.
So, the article basically states that Chinese government had a long-term strategy of building its economy for the benefit of Chinese, whereas the western countries/companies only pursued short-term gains. As a result, Chinese government was able to transform its country economy, whereas our governments blew it. And the conclusion is to blame Chinese government?!
Until we admit that the fault is not Chinese, but ours, and specifically, the fault of electing dumb, unqualified representatives who do not know how to govern and make long-term plans, nothing will change.
If Western governments had well-educated politicians, perhaps with some engineering background, who understood the trade-offs, they would have passed appropriate legislation to protect IP. Our governments (US, UK, etc.) did not (We do have a lot of lawyers though). So the next time you vote, make sure to check that the person is not just a smooth talker but in fact has brains.
Then again, take a look at our presidential race, the most accomplished guys on stage that are thinking long-term, Buttiegieg and Andrew Yang, are vilified. Good luck to us all -- with friends like us, we don't need enemies to be destroyed.
60
@Investor123 There are IP laws. China breaks them. It's called theft. And if you think that's ok because China does it to help Chinese, you cannot be reasoned with.
6
@Investor123
Exactly...
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
Congress and past presidents should have been pushing solutions for this over a decade ago at least and really we never should have let them into the WTO.
9
@Me There were IP laws. USA ignored them. It was called theft.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history
5
There are reasons why open society, transparent judiciary, and basic functional democracy are so essential for capitalism to succeed. We would get the worst of both the world if wealth generated by exploiting capitalism combines with autocracy of a director. That's why China is so very dangerous to the rest of the free world.
45
@Bonku
Excellent post!
2
The technology transfer to China from the West was already complete 10 years ago, starting in force in the early 1990s. These rules would have been effective if implemented in 1995, but not now. The US retains leadership in some areas of biotechnology, software development, weapons technology and management, however, China can easily obtain this information and will catch up within the next 10 years. The US is already turning into a commodities producer (pigs, chickens, soybeans, corn, wood) polluting our own environment to produce for China.
49
I don't believe anything coming out of Trump or his lackeys. With just one exception: Trump called out American media for spreading fake news. That's true. So I don't believe in anything reported by American media either.
What's the deal with China stole American Trade Secrets? American companies handed over trade IP in exchange for entry into China's lucrative market. They make a lot of profit for their shareholders.
Our country steals pitching signs and just about everything else we can get our hands on including emails from Hillary.
Why do we think China will stop?
1
If these Corporations don't want to do business in the manner the Chinese want no one is forcing them to play by the Chinese rules. They don't have to set up manufacturing operations there to ship back to the US, I'm sure there are still many people in the US who would take their manufacturing jobs back.
I have zero sympathy for these corporations having the intellectual property stolen to play in the Chinese system when many working people in the USA have had their lives stolen by these greedy businesses to find cheap labor.
You want to sell in the USA, You make it in the USA. You want to sell in China, You make it in China. End the endless pursuit of the cheapest labor.
4
The irony in this case is that China's strategy is a Trump business model at the level of international trade and further that Trump will "gas on" that he has addressed the problem.
The US experience, with both China and now Trump, is you can't force other players in the game to "play fair." You can try to provide incentives to the other player, like tariffs, but it may negatively affect your own economy, eg., farmers and steel fabricators.
Oh Mr. Trump, bless his very little heart ...
1
Why is there so much concern now when Trump is trying to do something about it? I would like to see an article detailing all of the past Democrat proposals and what Obama did about this issue. Or is Trump, once again, doing something that Democrats don’t want to do?
5
@Mark McKay - he is not doing anything. Nothing has changed to the previous way. China makes promises which they do not and will never live up to. Western civilization will be washed out according to the plan. Thanks to corporate management around the world who is more interested in their bonus than the survival of our way of life.
1
@Mark McKay
See the Trans Pacific Partnership. Something was done.
1
If we had stayed with the TPP, intellectual property rights would have been better guarded. Though not perfect, that was one of the stronger aspects of the pact.
4
The protection of intellectual ideas can only be protected in Court. The same international Courts Trump has weakened...it’s all show and mirrors
2
The theft of American technology and intellectual property isn't a new topic, and China certainly isn't the first or only country to do it. We have allies who have become tech leaders based on such thievery, but due to political pressure we no longer fuss over it.
1
It is simply rational for some secrets to be kept close to the vest. Though I value the free exchange of information because I see it as a practice that can bring the most good to the most people, some enlightening and groundbreaking ideas will be held back out of logical necessity. Even if 90 percent are shared, because of issues from danger to strategic advantage there will always be a slight tranche that make sense to keep private, and therefore protected. In our age, Prometheus' sentence has been commuted by good faith governments organized around ideas and some businesses that follow values like freedom, creative ideation and utilitarianism.
I agree with many of the other people posting here. China will still get with IP abuses because the US government and US companies will focus on the sales value and access to foreign markets, and willingly sell out.
If it can be established that China is actually stealing IP (as opposed to pressuring companies to give it out), then I suppose the same avenues exist as before.
So, what have we gained? Trump has gained a bragging right, and US business will ostensibly sell more soybeans and cars. But, given his track record as a terrible negotiator, there are probably enough holes in the phase one agreement to drive a Tesla Truck through. Sadly, we won't find that out until Trump has been re-elected.
One nugget - I wouldn't be surprised if the charges are soon dropped against Huawei's Ms. Meng.
2
@Tom Mergens Not more soy beans and cars. China simply agreed to resume purchases of those items. Not sure how that will repair two years of damage done to many in the farm belt.
There are two ways to think about intellectual property (IP), trade, China, and the U.S.
First, we could acknowledge that scientific knowledge was created by everyone and everyone should benefit. Even in the most competitive of fields, the Open Source Movement produced the Linux Operating System (the backbone of the Internet), Elon Musk famously published much of Tesla's IP on battery-powered cars, and international regulations prevent restrictive IP laws for life-saving drugs in developing countries. In those cases where specific IP is key to competitive advantage, then companies should be more responsible: don't off-shore the production if you have to off-shore your treasured IP, don't rely on H-1B visa workers, or send your source code to developers. Don't create situations where your lax security creates a crisis in international relations. As Tesla, Apple, and other companies have shown, being generous with your IP portfolio and making most of it freely available allows you to better safeguard the most important IP.
Second, I'm sick and tired of all this claim that China is stealing American intellectual property without an ounce of self-awareness. Since the normalization of relations between U.S. and China, Americans have "stolen" tens of thousands of the smartest Chinese graduate students who signed forms that they would return to China. We steal their talented brains, they steal a tiny sliver of American IP. The U.S. is coming out way ahead on this arrangement.
When the latest trade deal was announced Mr. Trump said forced transfers of technology would no longer be a problem as China said it would stop. What they actually said was "We don't do that".
Mr. Trump seems to think they will stop. China promised to stop doing something it says it is not doing.
It would seem Mr. Trump was outfoxed on this one.
1
The stealing of intellectual property is not something specific to China, here in the US the practice is well established. One way of gauging these claims of theft is to monitor the degree of patent infringement cases filed. In that regard, over the past five years there have been an average of 1400 infringement cases filed yearly, the most common defendants of which were Apple and Google.
As for the Trump administration "Leaving broad tariffs in place also gives Western companies a strong financial incentive to reconsider supply chains that are heavily reliant on China," that's a problem that particularly affects every single vehicle sold in the US.
Almost all vehicles sold in the US contain foreign content ranging from 15 to 100%. That means that the cost of it will likely be be felt by all consumers. Interestingly, the least affected vehicles would be ones made Honda whose Odyssey minivan and Ridgeline truck have 75% North American content.
When it comes to tariffs it is hard to do without shooting yourself in the foot.
Wouldn't it be easier to penalize American companies for transferring technology to foreigners?
2
@kj Yes it would. I would also recommend using our military cyber weapons to reek havoc on Chinese companies who perform industrial espionage.
1
It is unlikely to be solved at all, honestly. It's just too easy to commercially spy on other companies. In fact, most of the time you would not even have to 'spy' per-say, Chinese companies just buy a few of the product and reverse engineer them. American I.P. is extremely expansive and covers many things that other countries would not really consider to be protectable.
This will continue to happen until China cares enough about its own intellectual property that it is willing to pass and enforce laws that protect other country's intellectual property.
This will not happen until China is good and ready to do it. No amount of 'negotiation' or pressure from other countries will have any effect on this time-line. Its a political talking point that turns heads, but is basically worthless otherwise.
-Matt
2
Commercial spying, as in intellectual theft in the open market place is an oxymoron. It really doesn't exist. If a person, organization or other entity willingly sells, trades or publishes documents or builds, and sells a product, how can anyone say they stole what is willingly shared in the open?
Since the beginning of time, people have improved on various facets of life, whether it inventing the wheel, discovering a medical cure, or building a machine, we have all benefited form inventions that the originator could not control, or all least control for long. Steam engines, airplanes, computers, you name it, we all benefit from the open sourcing of these inventions.
In a free market, how do you protect a product from being copied? The only answer I can thing of is never share, show, sell, trade or publish.
China's biggest sin has been the governments protectionist policy in trade, something a tit for tat mandate from our leadership could have solved but has been lacking. Considering that our elected leadership has slavishly answered to private industry and the financial arms, we (corporate America, as apposed to the rank and file workers) have gotten just what we wanted out of China over the last 40 years.
China has been the low cost producer of manufactured goods, moving millions of American workers from the factory floor to the service economy. Conservatives have applauded as union jobs, their workers and union contracts have disappeared.
The reason so many of our companies moved a lot of their work to China was cheap labor, which greatly increased their profit and was a big part of our loss of manufacturing jobs that paid well. Who does the work that produces patents? Not the management. That's why when you're hired you sign an agreement that the company owns your patent and you get a small profit from it. Chinese workers are just as smart and hard working and just as productive. Did they even sign an agreement? They certainly learned and may have contributed. I remember when the company I worked for moved a subsidiary to China and I said it was stupid to create competition and my friends said, oh, Asians can only copy stuff, they aren't original. Tell it to Nikon, tell it to the Japanese car makers we imitate or go broke. Our companies gave away their technology (workers learn) for cheap labor. China took advantage of our greed and contempt and pushed for more collaboration to acquire technology. Now American Companies call themselves innocent victims, which is questionable. American workers lost jobs, companies profited.
4
American industry has been exporting our engineering know how for many decades along with our businesses. It's that simpler. Trump and the Republicans are seasoned liars who deceived you otherwise.
Trump's right on this single (Intellectual property) issue. China's going to be the tiger of the 21st century, militarily and otherwise. All we can do at this late date is work to retard its technological advancement as much as possible.
China's been aggressively stealing from the US since the 1980's with Wen Ho Lee and the copied W88 nuclear warhead designs. Take a moment to read about satellite photos of the large number of highly advanced destroyer class ships they have currently under construction. All of that is in preparation for a south China sea showdown in 5-10 years. The next presidential administration(s) need to be very aggressive on this issue.
3
It has become very popular lately in some circles to complain how President Trump's tariff policy is hurting workers, so I am enheartened that the Times highlights the important issues at play here, namely property rights, including those of some of our leading corporate persons. For decades the Chinese have been trampling on American property rights, rights that are paramount amongst the freedoms won for us by the Founding Fathers. So although jobs are important, without well secured property rights, our very freedom is at stake. Thus, I think some temporary sacrifices in employment and wage gains is a small price to pay. Freedom!!!
This agreement is a bunch of empty promises in order for China to allow US to stop shooting itself in the foot - and pretend that Trump "won". In other words Trump will trade anything (including our workers, farmers and companies) in return for his own re-election.
2
Why not theft of others property solved by a trade pact? China has been and continues to be WILDLY out of line stealing everything they can. It’s put 100’s of thousands of Americans out of work. We should have stopped them decades ago but we still encourage them. It’s crazy.
4
China is a totalitarian state that is a threat to American values. Stop supporting their economy. Stop buying Chinese made goods.
27
Trump justified his tariffs by claiming that any policy by a trading partner that harms the US economy is a threat to national security. Considering that, an exception for “national interest” is an open door for the Chinese to do the same.
I wonder how this compares to effects seen from the TPP?
When it comes to certain industries, China gets control of intellectual property the old-fashioned way: they steal it. I have personally seen in China stores selling nothing but bootlegged DVDs of Hollywood movies and a big department store dealing proudly
, openly, and exclusively in knockoff designer consumer merchandise, mostly things like leather goods and clothing, right down to forged branding like logos and badges.
1
@Pottree Not saying you're wrong, but how are you certain the logos were forged, and the products not actually from American companies? As I said, I'm not attacking, just seeking information for my own edification.
This store was proudly advertised as the “knockoff store” where tourists and Chinese alike went to get fake merchandise, knowing it was fake (supposedly part of the fun). This was stuff ranging from t-shirts with Nike swoops, sunglasses, cameras, Adidas logos on sportswear, etc. all the way up to fake versions of very expensive Italian and French designer handbags. I took the whole thing to be part of modern Chinese culture, a longing to grow up fast in the modern, first world. Similarly, main streets in big Chinese cities are chockablock with upscale European designer boutiques, and you do see people walking around with shopping bags (possibly the most important part) with fancy, famous European brand names.
Side note: during my visit there was a single block in Shanghai that had FIVE Kentucky Fried Chicken joints, all busy. Perhaps they were selling fake chicken, who knows?
Similarly, the article states China is the world’s largest car market (big and growing, anyway). There, a Buick sedan is a prestige marque. But the drivers are pretty much universally terrible. Talking about this with a Chinese acquaintance, she said, Look at all those cars on the road, all those drivers. None of their parents knew how to drive.
And a fake Rolex or Hermès bag is just as good as a real one when you’re excited about being on your way up.
China is an aggressive totalitarian state, not a friendly trade partner. It uses Communist state economic organization as a tool to exploit other economies. This international approach differentiates it from past Communist state economic organization. In understanding China, we also should remember modern-era Western relations with China and how the Chinese may feel about that today as they set policies. Trump recognized the China threat but gets no credit for it.
6
The politburo led by Xi would be considered lax if China did not bob/weave and drive its trucks through giant holes in the new deal, given the penny-stock reputation of Trump.
3
I started visiting China during Mao, out of historical curiosity and an abiding sense of change there. Over five successive visits I clearly noted “joint projects” In hotels, mineral extraction and eventually tech manufacturing. Foreign companies, in order to utilize cheap Chinese labor (they have 1.4 BILLION people now), FREELY agreed to Chinese demands for “sharing” tech knowledge. China concomitantly began to send their best students abroad to the high-tech centers of academia and development. It did not take long before they had huge sums of spendable currency and had hooked the world with that cheap labor force.
I emphasize that this was done voluntarily by companies from the U.S. and other countries to reduce their costs and increase their profits. I am not an Economist, but I am very well-educated, and I clearly saw the handwriting on the wall. Why has it taken us so long to complain about this, and to do anything. This is being driven by the same companies that started tech exodus - it’s their fault. No one made them do it.
Put responsibility where it is due. The Chinese were brilliant, and still are. We, on the other hand, not so much, especially this administration.
I DEMAND TO SEE WHAT, IF ANYTHING, LYING, FECKLESS, LOSER TRUMP HAS ACCOMPLISHED HERE. I seriously doubt much, if anything, of consequence. He has engineered a fake war for political stagecraft, caused worldwide turmoil and BILLIONS of American dollars already. What’s next on his toilet paper agenda?
7
Of course the fact that Americans are too lazy or incompetent, or too fascinated with following their passion into soft academic subjects, has nothing to do with the hiring of Chinese and other Asian personnel in scientific and technical positions where they have access to company intellectual property.
Basically, we did it to ourselves.
5
@Daedalus How do you plan to correct this? Obama tried funding white lists to public funding at a collegiate level to market relevant sectors.
I grew up to a traditional non communistic Chinese family, oddly enough it was those same values that got me on wall street.
I talk with a lot of parents today, if we're not careful, the USA becoming too democratic will end up with 2 problems: 1.) unlimited freedoms 2.) incompetent people.
China is behind us now because they lack the ability to innovate, they can do math, they can do science, they can manufacture, and make small derivations of things they see/copy. If they learn leadership, strategic vision and innovation, we will most definitely fall.
For some reason people believe that public policy/cash dollars are enough to sponsor creative/innovative GDP needle moving production.
Nope. You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make it walk on it.
The only companies that are United Statian-American are small companies and even they outsource (MAGA hats as an example). Most if not all large companies are world companies with offices where ever it pleases their stockholders.
In WWII Ford had plants in Germany and they received reparations for the US bombing the Ford plants there after the war. M&M Enterprises wins again.
The U.S. government should label China the enemy they are and require companies to divest their ties. It makes no sense to support such an inhumane and dishonest regime that, next to global warming, is the greatest existential threat to the United States and the rest of the world!
4
US companies worried about their Chinese "partners" stealing their IP have an alternative: manufacture their products in America.
5
They steal them by preying on the greed of foreign businesses who only want access to China's market. While I have no love for the Chinese, it's kind of poetic - greedy foreign businesses have only themselves to blame.
4
NO. It's a simple word.
That's what the boards of directors could have said at any time, but instead they said "Show me the money".
The CEO's and the remaining board members all knew what they were doing.
Many of these companies have been in China since Nixon's presidency, and doing the same thing over and over.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
If they want the US Government to bail them out, then raise their taxes and make them pay their fair share.
They certainly made trillions by literally giving away the store, and selling our workers down the road.
5
America is the land of money. All China has to do is show some low level guy with access a million in cash, get him to load up a thumb drive and it's done. Americans greed is well known and easily bought. It's not too hard for the Chinese.
3
This article is a good example of the bias this newspaper and most if not all the media in the US constantly displays toward China.
Is there not any other country in the world that steals our trade secrets? After, or actually before, reading this article, you would assume not. That is a ridiculous proposition.
Where does this bias originate. It seems like it is embedded in our DNA along with our other more recognized prejudices towards blacks and brown people.
Editors of this newspaper should ask themselves if they are being fair when they have not recently published any pieces that examine unfair trade practices from other countries. Does that not also occur? Of course it does. And it would be informative to know where and how this affects our trade.
3
I must confess to a certain degree of Schadenfreude in watching the US having finally to deal with a player of its own league. In a lot of issues, trade fairness included, I get a distinctive feeling of the declining pot calling the emerging kettle black.
2
This is corporate communism. looks like it works, at least for the top of the pack
1
Much of the "theft" by private companies is willing and contractually permitted.
4
Too bad the Dems running for President don’t have enough real world experience to screw in a light bulb, much less point out that it’s still made in China. Of course if someone did that, they’d probably be accused of some form of wrongful deviation from the new dogma, and be shunned on twitter, and lose 217 important primary voters in New Hampshire.
2
For sixteen years since 2000 China was allowed to do as it pleased. I don't like Trump, but at least he is trying to do something. I ask the liberals not to gnash their teeth when he has done something positive for the country. In the end, we should be all Americans, independent of political views.
5
@Valentin A
What has Trump done other than play the victim? His tariffs were paid by US citizens, not China. Our companies willingly went to China for cheap labor, and their big profit from cheap labor came at the expense of American workers. Trump did a lot to make the rich richer with his tax breaks and 30% increase in the National debt. This is a Republic and voters who are "independent of political views" are not good citizens.
Our "Tough on China" President has done exactly zero to effectively brush China back from illegal or underhanded business practices. In fact the only US businesses who have who have, in any way, benefited from Donald Trump's year long campaign of bluster and bluff against the mercenary Chinese have been the Ag Boys-And only because Trump provided them with an opened ended check for farm subsidies (courtesy of the American taxpayer).
3
"Companies rushed to produce in China and share technology."
Any company that willingly shares info with China to get access to China's market and then finds itself at a disadvantage because a Chinese competitor uses that information to build the same product has only itself to blame. That's what you get for being greedy and making a deal with the devil.
31
Don’t be naive. The original decision-maker got his bonus and left.
6
@Chuck Too many companies, especially US ones are only focused on short term, especially when it comes to bonuses.
3
Just today, I was caught in a forced money transfer. I wanted groceries from the store, but they wouldn’t let me walk out without paying.
Dear US govt, please intervene so that I can get stuff for free. These forced transfers are deeply unfair; everyone I know would rather not make them (but not badly enough to stop getting groceries).
1
@Jim Yes, but I'm sure the grocery store didn't demand access to your banking account information (supposedly to protect itself against fraud) as a condition of the transaction!
2
@Richard
Actually, your credit card transactions are logged and sold to third parties. So you are wrong.
1
@Jim Yes -- and that's not good or justified, either.
I hope that both consumer advocacy groups and U.S. companies doing business in China will have success reining in these ripoffs, no matter how quote-unquote legal such practices currently are.
1
Standard practice has been for Chinese negotiators to come to agreement on an issue, then afterwards acts in ways that do not violate that agreement, but negate it. In other words hollow victories for those negotiating against China, which adheres to the letter of its treaties but actively works to subvert the spirit of them.
China knows Trump needs a deal to divert attention to his domestic (an increasingly, international) woes, so they have made the described agreements, which take some pressure off Chinese industries. However, be certain that IP theft, one-sided import and joint manufacturing terms will continue under other forms of law or commercial justifications. By the time the US public has noticed, the damage on all fronts will have been done.
As long as China is an autocratic dictatorship with no rule of law, the state will continue its strategy to dominate economically through whatever means necessary, regardless of "agreements".
Were Trump to have formed a coalition of partners across the APAC and EMEA regions to confront China as a bloc of trading partners, there could have been real change enforced through coordinated action. That opportunity was lost when Trump adopted the "America First & Only" strategy.
7
This is totally normal. We did it. The Japanese did it. The Koreans did it. As a country moves upmarket in technology, the practices will naturally die out. Lack of intellectual protection suppresses innovation and at some point the cost outweighs the gains. China is about at the cusp of that change, which is why they readily signed up for this deal...it is to their benefit.
6
As an engineer, it offends me when companies take my hard work and give it to criminals in China. They do this so they can win a few years of profit for corporate leaders on the flimsy promise of business from China. Their goal is to take over manufacturing around the world: they will do that by whatever means are available.
10
@Rocketscientist
Since the USA sells secrets to get business in China there is nothing new about the exchange of money between hands. Yahoo, google, Facebook didn't mind selling technology that they knew was being used to track Chinese citizens who the government wanted to track, capture and reprogram because the Chinese felt that these people who wanted democracy were enemies of the Chinese state. How about the AI companies, trying to steal the faces of people who are protesting.
The tech companies , the science companies padded there bank accounts for selling information to the Chinese and then they covered there tracks. China didn't do anything on their own, they purchased the information because they know American corporations have no moral compass
.
Its a little late for Trump Ivanka his daughter has Chinese trademarks to act as if they care about human rights or fairness.
Lets read the small print in this Chinese trade agreement and do math how this actually helps Americans.
2
@Rocketscientist --- just like America would say and do anything to remain dominant Just imagine, Canadian and South Korean steel is "a National Security risk!"
1
That’s easy to see. It’s not brain surgery.
Let's see. American companies feared China stealing their technology. Sooooo, now, we'll give American companies more reasons to feel safe moving to China? I thought Trump said he wanted to help US companies continue making stuff here and not moving factories overseas? Hey, Ohio and Pennsylvania Trump voters... funny how that works, eh? I've said it before...if you're not in on the con, you're the mark.
2
The notion that China “steals” trade secrets is a corporate sponsored myth. When a company builds a multi-billion dollar plant in China and instructs Chinese engineers upon how to run it and fix problems with it, that installation is a grad course in corporate “secrets”. To then complain that the “secrets” underlying this implantation of tech have been “stolen” is nonsense.
13
@John♻️Brews
This article is making the assumption that it's bad to transfer technology to a foreign company. In point of fact, this is necessary before foreign trade can happen.
Many business models choose to inject their technology into the public domain. A good example was the Unix (and now GNU/Linux) computer operating system. It was originally developed by the Bell Telephone System, and when they were broken up the company chose to inject the technology into the public domain. This allowed everyone to gain unfettered access to the technology, and prevented Government interference.
SpaceX is a good current example, too. SpaceX does not patent their technology. Since every rocket they launch is, by definition, subject to Federal Export controls, the company chose not to patent their rockets. In exchange for injecting their technology into the public domain, they are granted immunity from Government interference. They may get restricted on a satellite they launch, but that is an issue between their launch customer and the Federal Government.
Many of the export restrictions come about when the Federal Government subsidizes research and development (R&D). When that happens, the technology comes under the the Export Administration Regulations (EAR). This is controlled by the Executive Branch, so it is politicized and controlled by idiots. But if you refuse the Government money, those regulations don't apply. You can tell them to go and pound sand.
1
@John♻️Brews Once the engineer takes his training and proprietary product knowledge to the competitor next door, that is known as IP theft. Perhaps we should be watching now for Chinese trolls?
1
Hey John, when a company buys a machine tool such as a HAAS (American) or Mori Seiki (Japanese), takes it to China, takes it apart and copies it exactly, but spells the company name wrong, and sells it worldwide, that's stealing trade secrets. When it spells the name correctly, and sells it as original that manufacturing counterfeit products and trademark infringement. You ought to know this.
2
The White House issued orders to blacklist telecoms giant and global 5G leader Huawei, and bar US companies from supplying or buying from such Chinese companies deemed a threat to American national security – part of a wider war to undermine China’s global telecoms ambitions.
Is this the new tactic of a bullying hegemon? Bullying, yes; new, hardly! Sabotaging another country’s hi-tech industries and their top companies has long been a clearly sanctioned American strategy.
8
@Wang An Shih --- that is exactly right. It is always others are "bad actors" , America is a new born babe in the woods surrounded by big bad wolves!
1
@jtai Another ABC showed his anger about Chinese government. Your negative attitude can't help improve your image. You are ABC, an identity connected to China forever. The worse China's image around the Western, the worse your image is. Even you work in Wall street, you still care about your identity so much. Just let it go.
1
@Wang An Shih, Communism in China was a mistake that came due to the desperation of those who weren't enough. In addition to the starvation of massive amounts of people, and the intentional discouragement of independent thought/leadership, China is breeding low level monkeys, not true Chinese people.
I'm an American born Chinese, kicked out and stolen from by the Chinese government. My family and I started from nothing. I now work on wall street in a great career.
If China is truly amazing, then none of the policies put forth here should be an issue.
China would only have stipulations on restrictions on communication/transparency on IP if they were a parasite that copies and manufactures hacks and B- products / services.
Also what is the biggest innovation outside manufacturing that China? That should be a very easy answer if China really has what it takes.
In large part and in reality, it doesn't, because when Communism took over, like in many civil conflicts, with a larger lower/middle class, the upper/educated class is penalized, or leave.
14
It's unclear to me why certain products cannot be requisitioned (starting with any state or federal-funded piece of infrastructure) in this country with similar specifications that a certain percentage of the parts must be manufactured here, coupled with a competitively low bid, apart from corporate greed.
I'm old enough to remember when U.S. corporations recognized that they were partners with their employees and the government in being stewards of the economy and striking a balance that preserved reasonable levels of profits and wages. As a result, there was reasonable economic stability. With modifications, this could still be a model in a global economy. But, I guess a sense of corporate responsibility is now an "OK boomer" notion.
8
Requiring joint ventures to force tranfer of technology under laws and contracts is.not outright theft, true, as some commentators point out, but it is second degree removed:) where is your sense of fair play when other countries do not do that to you? Where of rhe sense of pride in innovation and invention as the Chinese have a strong history of? Pride of innovation and fair play would gain much greater respect on the world stage.
2
The US government needs to find ways to be proactive in countering this sort of theft. If companies are not willing to take action fearing retaliation by China, the government either needs a mechanism for being able to file cases on its own, or needs to make it clear to the Chinese government that any retaliation against US companies for bringing complaints will bring a swift counteraction from the US. The US also needs to change its policy on China bullying companies to toe the line on its political agendas. If an airline has a map showing Taiwan as a separate country, they should not be subject to bullying from China to change it. If a business speaks out against China's human rights violations, repression of Uighurs, etc., it should not face commercial repercussions. And if it does, the US should take swift punitive action against Chinese commercial interests. Rules against this sort of behavior should be written into all international trade agreements.
1
@Mike --- How would you feel if China showed big parts of California, Arizona and Texas as part of Mexico and demanded their return to Mexico? How about China mounting a worldwide campaign to ban American tech companies involved in the surveillance of American citizens (PRISM) and the spying of foreign leaders as revealed by Edward Snowden? America wants to ban Huawei on unproved allegations of spying while America has been doing it and, perhaps continuing to do so! How about a campaign to protect the human and voting rights of blacks and other minorities?????
The article does not mention one of the most pernicious facets of Chinese IP theft: flattery and bribery of American (Australian, etc) CEOs, scientists and politicians. These folks have been wined, dined and chauffeured in every conceivable way building emotional ties and a sense of obligation to help their Chinese hosts. It was not just the money - what we have here is de facto emotional hijacking. You could see it in the US Chamber of Commerce which for a time has become a lobby for the Chinese state.
7
If what you suggest were true, whose fault would such hobnobbing be: China’s for trying the obvious, or these acclaimed scientists for relenting? Seriously.
This article suggests that China is not "stealing" our technology but coercing companies to share their know how in order to do business in China's lucrative markets. Requiring joint ventures and the like if done here would not be actionable under US law as theft of trade secrets. To characterize it as theft is a mischaracterization aided and abetted by the media, including the Times. While WTO regulations may speak to this, no one forced GM to sell its cars in China.
8
@Jsailor
It's true that requiring joint ventures isn't outright theft, but it is a very protectionist trade policy pushed by the government not companies. If we did that on common items there would be tons of push back. It is a mafia style tactic of saying basically "sure you can open up shop here but you have to give us half your profits even though we are only doing a small fraction of the work because you already developed the products".
5
@Keith Their country, their rules. I mean if we wanted to sell our products their without having to abide by them we could just send our navy to one of their Southern ports, take it over, and force them to lease it to us for 99 yea-....oh wait.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
1
@Keith --- American companies are free to pack up and leave. Don't do something and then blame others for the consequences! American laws are NOT international laws. America is free to do things its way, other countries are free to do things their way! It is as simple as that!
This article correctly points out that Government subsidized product development is a trade issue.
In every country, including the U.S. and China, government subsidized technology is always subject to export restrictions. That is to say, that an export license is required from the Government in order to resolve any potential trade issues, at the time a product is sold or shipped.
Unfortunately, these export restrictions are often mis-understood, and all-too-often become associated with 'buy American' policies. In actual practice, many companies choose to refuse Government R&D monies in order to preserve their right to export technology without Government interference. This is a perfectly legal and ethical practice.
According to the article: "Underpinning these concerns is that China has repeatedly shown that it can acquire technology and, through heavy government subsidies, build competitive rivals to American companies."
One of the best examples of this practice took place in the computer industry, in 1981. Two American semiconductor companies - MOSTEK and MOTOROLA - joined forces with two European companies - PHILIPS and Thomson CSF - to release a non-American computer standard called VMEbus. This allowed them to compete with subsidized U.S. mainframe computer makers.
VMEbus was free from export restrictions, and was eventually adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense. Why? Because they could share common computer technology with NATO partners.
2
It happens all the time in the biotech industry. Many Chinese born employees will send research documents from US companies back to their professors or colleagues in China. We had one research associate regularly faxing research plans late at night when no one was around. Companies visiting China often find malware on employee devices when they return to the US. It's a risky and very expensive cost of doing business.
9
@Winston --- is that a fact or just more fear mongering and echoing of American propaganda?
1
When Roche bought Genentech, they were buying Genentech's technology. What else did you think they were buying? That's the way technology business work.
Businesses were complaining that China was stealing our technology secrets.
In effect, the Chinese said, you're complaining that we're stealing secrets? OK, we'll pay for them. And they did. What's the problem? Now you don't like it when they strike a fair bargain?
3
@Norman
When the Spaniards were forced to build turbines in China they certainly did not foresee that the Chinese aim from the outset was to steal their IP and business. Was China did was theft, plain and simple.
A little murkier is what the Chinese are now doing in Germany - buying the Mitelstand factories and relocating them to China. In one fell swoop, work of entire generations is lost. Whoever is regulating industrial policy in Europe does not knwo what they are doing.
Is it really sane to export the newest factories (Tesla, GM, chip makers) to China in order to gain short-term profit?
6
@Kai --- all the companies you mentioned chose to do business in China and not"forced" as you claim. Chinese companies have joint ventures worldwide and they don't accuse foreign governments of "forcing" them to do so!
In his trade war with China, says the Economist, Trump likes to portray himself as a "the chosen one" who will bring Beijing to heel, but he's actually a chicken hawk. He doesn't blame China for stealing U.S. technology or cheating on trade, calling it smart. And Beijing came out ahead in what the Economist calls his "shabby trade deal in which China buys soybeans from Iowa but dodges economic reforms."
6
@Christy --- It makes no sense for China to do economic reforms to suit America's needs! China is doing reforms as required by its own needs.
China takes aka steals them via legal overt or illegal covert means. Using both private and public individuals and institutions to do so.
8
Greed. When was it originally acknowledged that these business relationships required the transfer of technology? Probably pretty early. It has probably been a known factor for decades.
So why did american corporations continue to work with the chinese? Cheap labor and a huge market. Great. As long as you are not an american worker.
Don't blame them.
17
Oh but I do, blame them.
And there are many like me.
So many underpaid and overworked overfined, underserved- humiliated and charged and fined at every opportunity without respite or even basic respect.
And we can all read now, us peasants.
And many of us bought the line about educating ourselves out of poverty.
Now we watch, educated, literate, our bodies over-burdened and our educations under-utilized, as those with evermore, they don’t even bother to hide what they have or how they live from the masses- they invite you into their instagrams, to marvel at the splendor of their bounty.
We see you.
All us poor folk.
We see.
Better hope we are too immiserated to vote. Better hope our votes count- pitchforks might not be too far behind.
1
"information wants to be free," especially when it's proprietary, secret, valuable, strategic.
meanwhile, of course, things will continue on as they have in the past.
it will take a while to judge the actual changes in things like patent theft, supply chain realignments, restrictive business laws, currency manipulation, state leverage in markets, red army spies in the research division, coercion of universities with lucre, and so forth.
but the ship of fools is still sailing straight toward its goal of citizen surveillance for due order, consumer manipulation for gross profit, with selfies and snacks and personal web pages for all and brand name lifestyle accoutrements to make each herd animal feel special and unique -- all fueled by carbon energy and massive resource extraction and depletion.
you're bought and sold, and your political system is corrupt. climate change marches on, the permits have been issued. nothing happens without a profit motive. what matters a measly trade deal?
10
I'm old enough to remember Japan stealing our trade and tech secrets. So did South Korea and Taiwan.
13
@Confucius
True and the U.S. did the same thing to British industry when the country was in its infancy the main difference is the scale and sustained Chinese government involvement in such practices.
In the past, it has been mostly individual companies organizing the thefts sometimes tacitly helped or ignored by the government but only Israel and the Soviet Union had such a large government involvement that still falls far short of what China is doing with the number of academics, senior managers, and project engineers that are actively recruited to steal proprietary information at the direction of Chinese state organizations.
It is industrial espionage on a massive scale before even getting to the hardball technology-sharing agreements that are standard practice for investing in China nor that Chinese courts always side with the Chinese half of such investments where in several publicized cases and countless lesser-known the factory which was a joint investment is simply re-named and a business dispute is put forward in China and the judgement awards the entire factory minus a small 'recoupment' fee to the Chinese investors leaving the foreign investors lost nearly the entire investment plus the technology transfer. China makes sure this does not occur with large companies but for small and mid-size companies it happens surprisingly often for it not to be a major theme of investment news because warnings of lost access to China if such stories are published.
How about Chinese citizens not being allowed to take their money outside China and invest in any way they like?
China wants to be part of the global economy but À la carte.
6
The only answer is to make more stuff at home, and pay the price. Develop industry in the Caribbean and in nations we can monitor and influence like El Salvador. China can fabricate goods for and steal tech from Tajikstan and send their students to Pakistan.
12
So, we want to be as greedy as we can; and we want to be respected and maybe even feared. Good luck.
7
'Twas ever thus. Samuel Slater was a British textile engineer who, despite bans on emigration for these valued artisans of the Industrial Revolution, managed to evade the authorities and decamped to the greener pastures of New England around 1790. He made bucketloads of $$$ for himself by essentially stealing the designs and selling them in the USA. Whether he was a hero or a traitor depends on from which side of the pond you are observing.
6
In rough numbers, China holds one-fifth of the world’s population…
As do each of Africa and India – and that part of the Pacific Rim that is not Indian or Chinese…
China’s consumer market – measured by headcount – is about 4X that of the US…
The upper quartile of that consumer market - measured per headcount – is more than twice as wealthy as the US consumer market…
China has jumped in with both feet, into Africa – and Africa has responded in kind…
Are the Chinese leveraging their wealth and civil engineering acumen to the hilt…
In a word, yes – but go read up what African leaders are saying about some of their countries, where most people have access to electricity for less than an hour each day…
India – as it always does – is going its own way…
This time, it might just get there…
What the countries of the Pacific Rim show – that a country doesn’t need to have a billion people, to compete or excel…
There are a dozen with a fraction of the US’s – let alone China’s – population….
Each with a culture that respects intelligence, determination, and teamwork…
It’s not a uniquely Asian thing – this just as well describes Israel…
And the US – well, we’re about a fifth of the fifth fifth…
We – like the UK – had quite a run…
But we’ve been liquidating our country like it was some out-of-date retail mall or furniture factory, for the past twenty years…
Been racing ourselves to the bottom – and now it’s coming into view…
Quick show of hands – who drives a Volvo…
15
I think it's hilarious - American companies wanting to enter the Chinese market for what else, to make money, and China negotiating their position.
9
@Jeremy Stealing is an odd way to negotiate.
1
If the DOJ really wanted to get into your phone they could ask China to open it.
1
To say that American companies gave away their trade secrets and technology isn’t quite right. Companies don’t give or take or do anything-people do. It was and is the executives of these companies who made the decisions. They all used a fear of missing out to justify getting into China at all costs. In the short term, that makes for a great story to investors which justifies a plump bonus. In the long term, the profit from doing business in China belongs to the Chinese communist party. Their laws and practices ensure that result. We need laws that put executives behind bars if they allow China to gain access to any technology developed in the US unless they have a specific waiver.
11
I’m sceptical that China will keep any promises
16
“The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them” - attributed to Lenin
11
If we don't want China to steal our trade secrets, we shouldn't ask them to build our toys for us. Apple can say iPhones are designed in the US, but they're manufactured in China. They know exactly what's involved. So Huawei can easily build a similar phone without the 50% markup. What do we expect them to do? Close their eyes and not look what's inside the iPhone on their assembly line?
26
Exactly, JB. Besides, do patents even pay inventors anymore? Corporations are too smart and powerful to let talented people be more than locked-in serfs.
Instead of bizarre "remedies" like the vile TPP that only serve to help turn our internet into xi China's and have NOTHING to do with trade, we can End The Patent, which would in turn end both the "China's stealing intellectual property!" charade AND computation-patent thuggery like software patents, the MPEG-LA cartel, and MIPS instruction patents.
To treat "trade secrets" like state secrets is to cheapen both—and if they really ARE state secrets, then WHY are our colleges allowed to teach them and thus make people worry that Chinese students will take the knowledge back home? They should be taught only in e.g. military schools then, where we have more of an excuse to ban specific nationalities (think the Saudi(s) involved in the recent shooting).
SO much about the "China is committing THEFT!" argument, and the people who make it, doesn't add up at ALL. I'd even say it's what the phrase "there's a lot to unpack here" was invented (if not patented) for.
5
@SR Violating patents is theft. Period. Of course patents and trade secrets are important. If you don't believe that, fine. But most everyone else has, for hundreds of years at least.
5
@JB
Its always about shareholders profits. The Wall Street CEO's sending firms overseas was all about not paying Americans and getting cheap labor.
It is astonishing that Trump thinks Americans who lost their jobs are going to support this theory that China is stealing our secrets. Corporate America will sell you if they think they can make a dollar off o you. America is all about the money.
Why can't US companies sue Chinese
companies for patent infringement.
They can stop them selling products
based on stolen technology. In 1960s
India pressured IBM and Coca Cola
to share technology and recipe with
Indian companies. They refused and
left the country. Now they are back
after the market reforms. American
companies knowing that Chinese
companies will be their competitors
if they get the technology and master it
should have refused. Incidentally,
USA also stole technology from
England when it started industrialization. It was common
for American businessmen to tour
mfg. plants in England, make notes
and drawings and reproduce at home.
China is determined to make strides
in new technology particularly in
semi conductors, software and
AI. Mr. Trump has shown that stopping
sales of chips to companies like Huawei
and Z Telecom could bankrupt them.
They are trying to become self sufficient
in semi conductors which is at the
heart of high tech products. Huawei
and Alibaba and probably others are
furiously developing home grown
chips. Both these companies are
cash rich and don't need subsidies.
There are many large companies in China with huge cash on hand, large research groups in China and overseas.
China will be innovating new technology. It can never be a leader
by stealing technology. There is a
learning process involved which will
put them behind. GM, FORD, Toyota, VW have been in China. But Chinese
companies still can't compete.
1
An excellent article.
Gov. Jerry Brown said, decades ago, that "you cannot have free trade between incompatible economic systems".
Was he smart, prescient or just sane? I think most of us would say the latter. Anyone who would say otherwise has something to gain and cares nothing for the well-being of our country.
The whole idea that we can be linked at the economic hip with communist countries is absurd and amounts to economic treason.
The fallout for this incompetence and greed, on the part of our government and business leaders, is accurately and tragically captured in Mr. Kristof's book, "Tightrope".
It's premise is that much of the lower socio-economic classes have been hollowed out over the decades by these polices and has created conditions every bit as severe as those in third world countries and "trade" is part of that.
...and, you know, that is no exaggeration as I see it all around me down here in the South.
31
@Blanche White, the thing is that it wasn't trade that hollowed out the lower socio-economic classes, it was their vote for politicians which happily sold the jobs of their constituents while foregoing the investment for the now jobless workers to be re-trained so they can do higher value, better paying jobs.
These are also the same politicians that enabled, and sometimes even encouraged, the sell-out of knowledge to countries like China.
International trade is a good thing, as long as it's regulated and controlled (and the U.S. often working on minimizing WTO influence didn't help here), and has been shown to be a pretty good tool to avoid wars.
5
American big business knew all along that US technology would be in the hands of the Chinese once business partnerships were formed. The monetary reward was much more than the risk, but trying to contain the intellectual seepage now is meaningless. The Chinese have what they need to further develop their technology, thanks to the US businesses who chose to partner with them for the profits to be made. The transfer of technical knowledge needs to be severely managed, but the horse has already bolted.
15
"Gamesa of Spain was the wind turbine market leader in China when Beijing mandated in 2005 ..."
That's misleading. The current name is "Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy", and Siemens has majority ownership.
"The company was created in 2017 by the merger of Siemens Wind Power and Gamesa." (Siemens Gamesa web site)
The article should explain how Siemens Gamesa is doing now.
1
US companies and the 1 percent (in China and the US) walked into these technology deals with their eyes wide open. Why would you care if China gets a piece of your new revenue? They give you access, you give them a piece of the action. The 1 percent made millions and loved it. The displaced American worker, not so much. Blaming China allows the US 1 percenters to take the money and run while shifting the blame solely to China for what THEY did too.
37
The reasoning here is a bit muddled. China dictates what happens in its marketplace, and can be explicit about requiring American firms to share technology in order to gain access. American firms have a choice. I see no cause for complaint here. Similarly, if a Chinese firm buys an American firm in a competitive marketplace, it is a cost of maintaining a capitalist, free market system (that I vigorously defend).
These are wholly separate issues from: (a) prodigious counterfeiting and flooding of market with cheap facsimiles (see our software and entertainment products), (b) hacking into America's grids and systems to disrupt and steal technology and (c) the government run operations related to connecting with America's underworld, gun and drug running in which the Chinese government is complicit (nothing happens there without the government fully knowing and colluding). Then there are the foreign policy issues of militarizing South China seas and territorial ambitions around the world (and base in Djibouti). In other words, there is plenty here that cannot be settled with negotiation, only by meting out tough consequences. Our willingness to conflate the two issues renders our trade war less effective.
5
From reading this article, which may not be completely accurate, it seems that the issues would properly have been pursued through a USG complaint in the WTO's dispute settlement system, based on China's commitments, as a WTO member, to TRIMs standards. The dispute settlement system has an excellent record of getting results, including cooperation from China's government.
Taxing U.S. importers hardly seems to have been necessary, especially as the taxes not only harmed the U.S. economy but also harmed the U.S. rule of law, in terms of being imposed illegally (but with cover from Senate Majority Leader McConnell).
Tearing down the dispute settlement system is surely not necessary, either.
And on the issues, first, the USG's statements on "currency manipulation" have just been political posturing. The USG has no better system to offer than what China's government has been implementing.
Second, the idea that firms in China are not going to develop technologically if firms in the U.S. just keep industrial secrets is the purest fantasy.
Yes, I get it that Han Chinese are ethnically different from white supremacists' vision of the U.S. "nation." But no, that doesn't make them inscrutable or devious or inferior. They're just people.
The important differences are governmental: relative to the USG, China's government is more centralized, more authoritarian, and has a more effective economic development policy.
9
It appears what we have is private, profitable corporations using the Federal government and legal apparatus as a way to protect them and their products with the American taxpayer footing the bill. Which raises the question of why would the Congress cut the corporate taxes rather than raise them to cover the costs of Federal legal enforcement and bailouts for farmers?
6
American companies are now reaping the dubious rewards of moving so very much of their manufacturing away from the U.S and to China.
Those companies and their predecessors who paved the way cared more about their own greed (cheap, sometimes inhuman labor; sourcing materials, like steel, outside of USA; sneaking out of paying taxes) than about being decent corporate citizens to their fellow Americans. Now, it seems, the proverbial pigeons are coming home to roost as Chinese entities make off with trade secrets that U.S. companies hand-delivered to them so their people could make the stuff on the cheap and those companies initially pocket the bounty off underpaid maltreated labor.
19
@observer
Communities and lives were destroyed. Corporate America didn't care, our politicians were ignorant to the long term effects on the American people they would be out of office so why would they care.,
Corporate America has sold democracy and the citizens of the country down the river . No one believes anything from Trump or china. Intellectual property why sell it just give it away, since the people pretending that they care or the ones selling it for a price to the dictatorships.
"General Motors [agreed] to build a state-of-the-art assembly plant in Shanghai with four dozen robots to make the latest Buicks. Executives at Volkswagen ... were furious, because competitive pressures forced them to upgrade their technology as well."
The article should explain how the GM plant was *financed* and whether GM got any accommodations, such as tax breaks, that VW did not get.
As it is, the article gives the misleading impression that GM got some advantage over VW in China.
This is a classic example of Western states that made the rules and rigged the system to favor them whining and complaining when other states find a way to make the system work for them. China's insistence that companies partner with local firms is only reasonable; if you're going to make a fortune off of China, you should be giving something back. And the insistence that certain percentages of a given product be made in China sounds familiar; isn't that exactly what the Trump admin was insisting be done with NAFTA? And isn't that how many major trade deals already work? In the end, the Chinese are balancing out decades, even centuries, of the West exploiting and stealing from the rest of the world by playing their own game against a rigged system.
9
@Shaun Narine
This isn't justice - it's bad following bad.
1
The only way to stop the CCP-led systematic theft of our technology is to stop trading with China until that regime goes the way of the USSR.
.
Yes, that's going to be painful, but not nearly as painful as allowing them to keep stealing from us. China's Communists are trying to bury us.
They have been fighting an economic war against us and all we did was complain. Over and over and over, for decades. Meanwhile, a small number of American business people and politicians got rich selling the rest of the country out.
.
Either we stop them now or they will make the world a much darker place. They will not honor any agreement they sign, period.
17
@West Coaster
Spying and the Chinese stealing secrets is one thing.
But outsourcing and making deals with other countries in order to profit from their low salaries is another;
If you give your kees to an unknown person who works cheap in order to save , you should not complain if he steals your silver...
4
The Chinese have it easy. Here in the US, people will sell their grandmother for the right price, so trade secrets are nothing and can be had for a very small price.
We vilify others but never the weakness of our own people and their basic greed and dishonesty. This country is Trump country and everything is for sale. Crime is okay if your wealthy or can get away with it. The laws were intended to keep the poor people down and protect the wealthy, not to ever really provide justice or fairness. So, you can disregard the propaganda about us being a country that believes in the rule of law. You can also disregard the propaganda which says Americans are hard working and deserve better. The people deserve what Trump is going to bring.
42
China agreed to this because they have taken enough from western to be able to make their own products. Go through all the latest technology innovations articles and magazines, a huge portion of them done by Chinese engineers and scientist nowadays.
By agreeing to this, expect them to buy more of their own homemade made product in the near future. America economy strength within the US has gone stale, which isn't good for rich people. Its only growth really is external markets, and China happens to be a huge part of this.
9
@Nyu
I read Science magazine and the Chinese names among the authors are striking.
A generation or two ago, a research team would have a Jewish principal investigator and a couple of Chinese graduate students. Now the principal investigators are Chinese. And their work is very good.
I saw a conference run by the journal Nature on Chinese science and technology. There was a morning panel on business and an afternoon panel on science.
The business panelists said that we are competing with the Chinese.
The science panelists said that we are competing, but also *cooperating,* with the Chinese.
I meet a lot of Chinese scientists and other professionals. If I had to choose between competing and cooperating, I would rather cooperate.
Chinese teachers and colleagues have given me some of the best lessons I learned in my professional career.
But the most important lesson was that science is a cooperative effort, and that we should judge people by the contribution they make to the scientific community -- regardless of "race," religion, political ideology, or anything else.
We've seen how easy it is to divide people by race, and where it leads.
2
Can’t help but notice that the local production requirements that are touted as an example of China stealing IP here are similar in form (if not in quantity) to the ones in the USMCA that Trump & Co. negotiated and are celebrating. That is both ironic and unsurprising given the way developed and developing economies have interacted over time.
Almost every country develops its local industries through protectionism and copying more developed economies only to turn around and demand complete free trade from other countries once their industries have developed. In the 19th century Britain tried to stop the US from stealing textile technology, complaining that US merchants were stealing patented equipment and poaching workers who could help develop American textiles. The US continued to do so until their industries were developed to the point of overtaking the UK. Now we are the biggest proponents of “free trade” (just don’t look at our agriculture or defense sectors).
18
@Patrick
"Biggest proponents of free trade?
No longer.
We are now behaving like a developping coutry trying to protect, throught tariffs and supposed "security national interests", our coutry against better and smarter people.
1
What a joke. The Chinese as usual, are telling us whatever we need to hear in order to get what they want. Trump rolled over to get his "Beautiful" trade deal. It certainly is beautiful for the Chinese. They get the tariffs lifted today, then they'll go home and continue to steal our technology exactly as they've been doing for decades.
And BTW - those US companies voluntarily giving up their technology? They shrug their shoulders and tell us they "have to follow China's rules." Make no mistake about it. They are choosing profits over country,
86
The tariffs which the Administration imposed upon Chinese products are ridiculous and are akin to theft.
In general, the idea behind tariffs is that by slapping a tariff upon an imported product you make it more expensive than the domestically produced version of that product thereby making the domestically produced product more competitive and attractive.
In regard to the current round of tariffs, there are, in most cases, no domestically produced alternatives to the products upon which the tariffs were imposed which means that the tariffs which are paid by us are pocketed by the government. Go buy an American-made cellphone.
5
Many Canadians are wondering when there will be movement on the Huawei debacle. Will this new trade deal include provisions for addressing this situation? Will these negotiations provide a mechanism for releasing two Canadians from prison who have been held without access to lawyers and support services since they were imprisoned by China in response to Canada issuing a house arrest on a Huawei senior executive at US request?
4
The article says China ‘sometimes requires a certain percentage of a product to be manufactured locally’, as if that is an ‘unfair’ way to extract knowledge transfer. Ironically today the US Senate may consider support for a renewed NAFTA, where a key negotiating point for the US has been to require minimum US content on auto manufacture. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander?
22
This has been known for years. Why do people in the west still defend and deal with this country?
Better to cut them off from the rest of the world.
50
@Randy L. Remember TPP. An attempt to organize trade relations throughout the Pacific region that specifically did not include the chinese.
Bernie and Donald were both opposed.
Greed and stupidity are the foundational elements of modern american politics.
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@Randy L, how has cutting off Iran or Russia from the world through economic sanctions worked so far?
The choice is simple: either we trade with China or we will very likely find ourselves at war with a huge country full of ingenious people.
I prefer the former.
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@HT TPP gave American workers a short end of the stick. I can live with abolishing it and seeking a better deal for the USA.
Offer and acceptance, these big American companies know what they are trading to do business in China. The American businesses are after one thing, money. These businesses could go anywhere and have their products produced, they chose China. Why, money. Yes, there are some legitimate problems created by working in China, but no one is requiring these companies from working there, or staying there. These corporations have taken American jobs overseas for money and then cry for help from the government. Give me a break.
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No piece of paper, much less a treaty, much less a treaty with China, can protect technology if you build the products in a country that will not actively enforce patent rights. Even in the best circumstances outsourcing to a company not controlled by the patent holder is dangerous.
This trade deal will not bring one good job back to America.
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We want it all. And China is not Japan, which is suffering in the last two decades after signing agreement with us.
To reach an understanding in real term between the two takes time. We cannot simply ask China to eat steak, potato, and bread, and then ask China to import beef from us. Just like China cannot ask us to eat rice and pork as ordinary meals. I am sure we can eat rice but not that much.
Our mentality still remains that we are superior than China, thus everything they create is stolen from us. This is inaccurate and requires negotiation and time to settle the issues.
We claim open minded on many things. We also say we are fair to other people. I am sure we can practice these two principles to reach compromise between us and China.
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It seems quite simple to me. If a product made in China contains stolen technology or stolen design ban it from this country
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Theft is an essential component of China's system. It is a dog-eat-dog world over there. Most in China do not share our values around intellectual property. If they are not stealing from us, they are stealing from everyone else, certainly including other Chinese. Why is this so? Well, if you have learned to devalue the individual and personal freedoms, in favor of the state, why would one person or company have exclusive right to anything?
Second, China has demonstrated time and again that their word means nothing. They told Obama they would stop hacking -- which most did not believe at the time -- and sure enough they kept up the hacking after a brief slowdown. Unless China changes their laws at a national level, there is zero hope of change.
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@Justin Yes, as any Kurd would readily attest, no one is as reliable and steadfast as the Americans. Our word is sacrosanct!
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China has carried out so many thefts of western technology it is count less.
In 1970 China placed an order for 100 fork lift trucks from a Poole Dorset UK company they requested one to be delivered in advance.
After which the order for the 99 fork lift trucks was cancelled and the chinese built their own fork lift trucks. Based on the truck they had delivered.
China along with Russia are countries I would not deal with.
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This trade war has very nasty consequences. US "allies" (what does that even mean) are forced not to freely trade with China. They need the US approval.
Insane.
Imagine Europe forcing the US not to sell weapons. Ridiculous, right? Unless you are a bully.
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Nothing left to "steal". The way I see it, China did not want to merely supply cheap slave labor so that we could afford the latest gizmos while she continued to languish in poverty. She wanted to be a player, to have a seat at the table. In order to do so, she had to learn. So, she offered low costs in exchange for know how. And corporate executives, only looking at profits a year a time, eagerly agreed. Now, there is not much left to steal/learn as she is pretty much up to speed. And we are faced with a competitor that may well surpass us in the near future.
"But the Chinese are not creative. They will be nowhere if they don't steal from Western thinkers and innovators". I suggest that you flip through a scientific journal, any discipline is fine, and look at the names of the authors. Yep, those are Chinese names.
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@The F.A.D.
"Chinese" is a vague term, since it can apply to a government, a culture, and an ethnicity.
"The Chinese are not creative" is obviously an indictment of a culture manipulated by unhealthy deference to authority. A skilled ethnic Chinese scientist or engineer is certainly possible ... and thrives under the Western model of R&D.
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@The F.A.D.
US position: How dare you invest in your society’s education, science, and technology! We will sanction you until your schools are bad as ours, and your infrastructure is as crumbling as ours!
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@Len Arends "thrives under the Western model of R&D"??? You obviously never heard of British Cambridge biochemist, historian and sinologist Joseph Needham, Ph.D (1900–1995). Look up his 7 volumes "Science and Civilisation in China".
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I do not support this administration but China does acquire technology from US firms....it is blatant. It’s even more egregious when management has origins in China.
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From today's article:
"China has long denied that it forces foreign companies to give up technology. They do it willingly, Beijing asserts, to get access to China’s vast and growing market. Still, Chinese officials say they are taking steps to address the concerns."
Besides the reason offered, Beijing also asserts US companies "do it willingly" because their technology must be given to China to carry out the project in question.
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In my opinion, despite these assurances which I believe has 0% credibility, US companies should continue to strategically minimize China's reliance and shift its supply chain to other countries like India, Vietnam, Mexico, Canada, etc.
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@RN Or bring it back to the USA.
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China will continue to do what it has been doing, which is first to agree, then renege. This is a continuous cycle that keeps going around and around in a circle that just keeps repeating itself again and again.
Didn’t China agree to this last time? Or was it the time before? No matter, it agreed this time, and they really meant it. I’m glad that’s settled. Whew.
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Stupid companies are bending over backwards giving China trade secrets so that they can do business there.
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@pat China also keep buying up businesses in the US as fast as they can. Workers will not have any freedom of speech and any rights. Why do we keep letting them buy up America and then complain when they steal our secrets?
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@pat Also Chinese actually stealing trade secrets. For example, in which T-Mobile successfully sued Huawei: "In one alleged instance, two Huawei employees slipped a third one into a testing lab to take unauthorized photos of the robot. One employee also tried to hide the fingerlike tip of “Tappy” behind a computer monitor so that it would be out of view of a security camera, and then tried to sneak the tip out of the lab in his laptop-computer bag, according to the lawsuit."
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Once upon a time, the British did not make anyhting the Chinese wanted to buy, so, they hooked them on opium. America does not invest in R&D or new products, so, does not even make anything their own people want to buy, so, we have hooked the world on our stock market, pumped up by corporate buy backs. This drives foreign money in, and, thereby increases the price of the dollar, further killing manufacturing. Since government pensions and university endowments are also major investors in stocks, you might say that tarrifs are need to protect moribund, largely state owned, Soviet style industries.
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Xi has absolutely no intent to enforce a ban on theft by Chinese companies of secrets held by competing foreign companies. The history of this activity dates from China's entry into the WTO. Over the past 6 years we have seen China punish foreign companies by loss of business for questioning China on any topic of the day.
China recognizes they are a large market and will always use financial bludgeons to coerce foreign companies.
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