“Guilty Men” -- published in 1940 -- was a widely read book during and after World War II written by three English journalists under the pseudonym of “Cato.”
A cry of outrage and anguish, it laid direct blame on Neville Chamberlain and 14 other English politicians for the disastrous appeasement policies that left England at the mercy of Hitler at the start of the war.
It is a short book that came in at just 144 pages
because the authors had only 15 villains to account for; unlike the
Trump Presidency where there will be hundreds -- if not thousands -- of villains for future historians to account for.
When these historians finally sit down to parcel out the blame for the Trump catastrophe that is currently afflicting this nation, their history of the Trump years -- I hope they call it Guilty Men & Women, Part II -- will likely appear as a set of three or four volumes, each of which will consist of well over a 1000 pages.
There will also be a need for separate volumes to account for the treachery and betrayal of America’s ideals by Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham and Jim Jordan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilty_Men
"Guilty Men" is a bit hard to come by at libraries, but here it is on PDF:
https://ia601606.us.archive.org/24/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.5205/2015.5205.Guilty-Men.pdf
5
What is it with you political pundits?
Everything's about "pizazz" and "packing a punch" ...like impeachment is some mixed martial arts smack-down.
Gee, Michael, so sorry "you were not amused."
President Trump is the most corrupt President in modern American history. His flagrant violations of the Constitution are NOT a "reality show." His actions are destroying "real lives." My God, stop it already...
6
This column made me so mad! Voters care. Don't speak for me! I'm so mad and want that corrupt President of ours impeached so fast. Him and all his criminal cronies. You don't speak for me!
5
Everybody knows Trump did it. What makes me sick to the stomach is the Republicans babbling this and that silly story about how he is really innocent. I would far rather they would stand up and say, I know he did it, but I am not going vote to impeach because he is one of us. But no. They think we are all so stupid that if they tell their lies over and over we will somehow believe them. Is there not a single, honest decent Republican left? Stop lying.
6
Many care. The do not want the US to pander to
Russia. They know Trump is a liar and scoundrel.
that is beyond dispute
2
The Democrats and their constitutional experts beat the dead horse pretty good today. But they - and many - feel like nobody is getting it: Trump's a felon, a conspirator, he obstructed justice, and confessed to the crimes he is being accused of - himself! - on live TV.
Who doesn't get it? The hypnotized, the sedated, the brainwashed? The 40% that support Trump (do-or-die) don't want to get it because it upsets their cult of personality apple cart.
And, you can never win an argument with a true-believer or with a blithering idiot,,,
Forget politics...let's dance!
1
Not sure who is right here.
Do we impeach, quickly and narrowly, but impeach all the same as Mr. Tomasky said yesterday?
Or do we impeach, bigly and to inform history, as Ms. Eisenberg says on Dec. 5?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/trump-impeachment-articles.html
1
Of course I care. wow, you are really cynical. Not enough "pizzazz" for you?? I was riveted for all ~8 hours and was willing to hear more. (note to NYT: I missed the NYT sidebar so switched to WAPO for a good video)
I learned a lot about our Framers and I watched as Turley (R guy) began to droop in the final hours, casting eyes to heaven in obvious disgust at the Rs pathetic "defense"; he didn't even LOOK at the MOCs or his fellow testifiers, I guess ashamed. I watched as various RMOCs did their standard deflect, deny, delay (and yell). I heard DMOCs raise points of testimony, tie it to impeachment standards, and give a damn. I loved the way our newly elected GA congresswoman (Lucy McBath) felt and showed outrage about the treatment of Maria Yovanovitch.
Given that NPR reports something like 40% of our electorate can't name the three branches of govt. you need to sit up and pay attention to the erosion of democracy and do something! via our Republican House members. Stop being cynical. CARE.
1
Much ado about nothing.
Anyone has glanced at the Posts Page 6 for the last 30+ years knows full well you get what you pay for. Anyone who ever watched that cheesy tv show The Apprentice knows full well he’s guilty as sin. When Deustche Bank releases trump.inc financial docs the proof will be in the pudding. A multiple bankrupt tax evader who couldn't rub two wooden nickels to make a copper penny.
Its in his bones, spurs and all to evade, prevaricate, grift, chisel, fleece and obstruct. Yet the spectacle of a national embarrassment appeals to many. He’s our loser after all many say. NATO leaders snicker, he’s their loser or pompous windbag.
So?
1
Do voters even care that their representatives are ranting fools like Collins, who mist the lenses of cameras from a distance with their bile?
1
I am a liberal and no, I don't care. It is clear that liberals live in their own bubble just like the Fox News watchers.
Just step back a bit and think about it.
People who voted for Trump are okay with Trump going around grabbing women's privates, kissing them without consent, saying Obama is not a citizen, hiding his tax returns and so on.
Do you really think that people like this will be concerned about Trump using his power to investigate a political opponent? In fact, they expect that from him.
So, this whole impeachment will not switch one vote in 2020 election.
This is a useless unless there are enough votes to get him out of the office, which they don't.
What exactly is the point of this?
Trump in a landslide in 2020.
That Trump encouraged Zelensky to bring to the attention of law enforcement the quid pro quo which resulted in Hunter Biden getting a job for which his qualifications are questionable with Ukraine's Burisma ostensibly because his daddy was Obama's vice president is not wrong. And when you consider that Ukraine got every dollar that it was in line to get from the Trump Administration, investigation or not, I'm not seeing very much wrongdoing here by Trump.
You know what I see? A bunch of sore loser Democrats who cannot accept that their darling Hillary lost fair and square to Trump and that they have no viable candidate to defeat Trump in 2020.
1
This is all partisan political nonsense. Hate the Democrats. Hate the Republicans. Pox on both houses. Please stop wasting time and money on this phony show trial.
How did so much of our country become so corrupt, and so mind-blowingly stupid? All the last three years tell us is that hate radio and state run propaganda work. It forms the protective cult that could somehow keep this criminal in the presidency. I weep daily for what we've become, and where we find ourselves.
This one does.
The plain truth is that Mr. Biden's son was hired by a corrupt government official of a corrupt country for mucho dolares to influence his dad.
This should have been looked into long ago by the Obama administration - not be Trump
And I have yet to read in the NYT that his son has a record of cocaine use. How can a drug addicted son of the VP be allowed to work in the Ukraine?
Beats me.
Focus on the cover up. No Republicans believe the facts. Cover up, cover up, cover up. If you hide the facts and don't allow people to testify, you are showing guilt !
Many say “everyone knows what trump did” ... so glib ... we need to “meddle” now to try to slow HIM down ... one doesn’t fake 300 pages of non-disputed corruption ...
Well, Mr. Turley doesn't agree with you. Then again, Mr. Turley believes the world is shaped like a burrito.
This is a political issue that many Americans could care less about. Joe Biden is not, or ever has been, a threat to the political ambitions of Donald Trump. I believe that Trump did talk to the Ukrainian president about investigating Biden, not as a political threat but because of the shady deals his son had with the Ukraine and China. Anyone with a conscious can see the conflict in interest in Hunter Bidens actions, but fellow Dems and the media refuse to question fellow Democrats. I understand wrong is wrong and Trump was wrong in asking but it's not to the degree of a high crime or misdemeanor; it's more along the line of a Congressional censure of the President. If you strip away all the political hubris and take a critical look at what Trump did, the penalty of impeachment is way over the top. But instead we'll continue to make it more political and send it to trial in the Senate where it will die. Trump's going to come out even more powerful and the Democrats will be sucking on sour grapes for the next four or more years.
Never mind the fact that Trump is a vulgar bigoted narcissist and an absolutely terrible role model. Never mind that he has done some really stupid things - with drawing from the Paris Accord, putting tariffs on China with no realistic end in sight, trashing the Iran nuclear agreement. Never mind that he has sided with Russia and trashed all of our National Security agencies. Never mind that he has pardoned convicted war criminals without consulting the military. Never mind that he has made enemies of are allies and made us the laughing in eyes of the world. And now we are supposed to forget that the facts prove he extorted Ukraine for his own political ends. Seriously, if Trump supporters think that he represents the best the GOP has to offer in 2020, as a country we might as well close the door and turn off the lights, because we are finished. There is no cure for stupid.
2
Professor Karlan was a complete train wreck. I have Christmas shopping to do and have absolutely no more time for Pelosi’s impeachment.
Yes, I do!
Mr. Tomasky,
YES!
New York Times readers? Of course. Voters in general? Probably not.
Answer: NO. In the middle of Ohio nobody cares.
2
The American people are tuned out because they’ve seen this political sham before. It’s a hoax, like the 2 yr Mueller hoax.
The Dems have a crop of anti-Trump loony leftists or old brain-addled coots running for president. And none of them will come close to beating Trump next year. So the Democrat state-controlled Party media is cheerleading this scam.
This crazy soviet-styled “thing” the Dems are count will only make Trump stronger. He will crush any Dem head to head.
1
No. I don’t believe false claims or made up claims are impeachable. If it is every president of both parties can be impeached just because we don’t like them. I hear wild claims about high crimes & misdemeanors, but every witness after their sob story claims they know of no law he broke. Yet I can see quid pro quo’s from Democrats, sexual misconduct, campaign violations, Logan act violations, pedophilia, etc and the press isn’t interested. This is all political hype just because you don’t like Trump.
Yes, I care about the impeachment & so do most of my friends. Call your congress members & tell them that you care & what you expect from them in dealing with this.
I already have done this. Just have one more Senator to call.
Believe me, they respond when enough people make their positions known!
The Left is doing the Right Thing but is it the best thing? Trump is totally wrong in what he did and should be held accountable but most people really don't care. Three years of Mueller has made us numb. A way out of the this would be to wait for the courts to rule on John Bolton's and others failure to answer subpoena's. My party the Dem's are acting like they have a blood lust to get Trump. I think once the Senate gives Trump a pass Trump will you this to win another term.Sometimes when your in a hole you have to stop digging. Everyone knows Trump is not going to thrown out of office by a Republican Senate so folks thinks it is much to do about nothing. Doing the Righteous thing might not be doing the wisest thing.
1
The truth is voters don’t care much about this, because many of us believe what Trump did wasn’t wrong. We all know that the Ukraine is corrupt. Many of us believe that foreign aid should be withheld for that reason alone. Joe Biden’s son was sitting on the board of a company that no doubt is part of the corruption problem. The fact that Joe Biden is a political rival of Trump doesn’t give him or his family immunity from investigation. Trump never asked Ukraine to fabricate any evidence against the Bidens. He was seeking the truth, which is what we all want. The fact that the media has virtually ignored this only helps bolster Trump’s position.
125
He was not seeking the truth. The truth was already out there, the issue having been investigated to a fare-thee-well and Joe Biden cleared of any wrongdoing. He was seeking an announcement of an investigation in order to stir up suspicions about Biden; he did not care if any further investigation took place or not. We have this on the record.
275
@Mark I agree with you completely. When 2020 comes all the Democrats will hear from the silent majority & President Trump will be wholeheartedly re-elected.
33
@Mark
Our duly elected government decided it was in the interests of the United States to help Ukraine defend itself from Russia and specifically allotted money for that: when that money was withheld on the condition that they do Trump a personal favor (the idea that he cares about corruption is laughable) it was clear that he wasn't interested in truth but in the results he wanted. He spoke the way mobsters speak when they want something done. Our president shouldn't be using our tax dollars to pursue or punish his political rivals, whether they're guilty or not. He's supposed to serve the interests of the United States.
295
“Do Voters Care?” Hell, yes. More than Republicans think.
Only the smart voters.
2
trump supporters care for nothing except their white victim hood - not the weak 1.9% economy - the exploding debt -the country which is now nothing more than a vast criminal enterprise.
3
Thanks for pointing out what a clear and present danger to our democracy William Barr is. Let's impeach him too for his lies to Congress and the American people.
4
Yes, this voter does care. How cynical to think that the people of this country who care about our democracy (not the sick reality show of a corrupt Republican occupying the Oval Office) do not care. There is a lawless president who has taken Congress approved funds for a country that was invaded and at war with Russia in an attempt to pervert our election and system of government. Sorry to hear that some comments suggest its too boring or we know how the movie ends. Take a civics class, please!
2
True. These proceedings are largely irrelevant, or perhaps slightly relevant to the extent that they will solidify, once and for all, every millimeter of support that Trump ever had. Any Trumpers who might have been on the fence, are now squarely behind this madman. The useless Democrats brought this catastrophe down upon us, starting initially in 2016 with a terrible candidate, and now again, by underestimating the ignorance and stupidity of a huge swath of the electorate. If another 4 years were still up for grabs, these clumsy hearings have handed then once and for all to this vicious lunatic.
We are truly, truly ruined. I feel sorry for our children.
An apathetic and ignorant polity is hardly a strong defense, but when you are an obvious criminal it is probably your best option.
We are watching democracy in the US die as Trump tramples the Constitution on a daily basis and millions of Americans cheer him on. As a student of history I often wondered exactly how things went so horribly wrong in Germany after WWI, but now I finally understand.
1
More important, Trump seems to be increasingly agitated, mentally unstable and demented. There is something visibly wrong with his disturbing behavior and language, namely loss of cognitive ability. We need to invoke the 25th. What was that emergency hospital visit? Anyone who has dealt with a disordered, sociopathic, demented, addicted and mentally unstable person recognizes these signs in Trump.
1
I am relieved and supporting of this impeachment. He is a stain on our country, and an embarrassment to the world.
Libs now only want to speed things up because they know the longer their nonsense and totally biased witnesses lecture Americans on TV - the more they know American voters are fed up with Democrats- not President Trump.
The House must hold The Criminal Con Man in Chief accountable for all high crimes and misdemeanors .
Senate Republicans must have all the evidence in front of them so their constituents can hold the Senators accountable.
1
Deep deep down, no one actually cares about this investigation. For those who do not pretend to care, it is quite natural to look at those who pretend to care as posers or at the very least selfishly disingenuous. It is quite obvious that those who pretend to care see it as an opportunity to pretend to care, bc they think it is in their self-interest. However, all of our weak democrats who were in the field prior to impeachment miscalculated, overlooking the fact that it was not going to be obvious that they were being disingenuous. Warren lost her campaign the day impeachment started. Bernie would rather seem righteous than do what it takes to win. He shouldn’t run for president, he should start a church. Buttigieg is a follower, all he is is an empty resume. Congress and the democratic presidential candidates have let out party down. None have a chance to win. Bloomberg is our only option. He won’t cower at Trump, he won’t be intimidated, he won’t say something stupid. All he has done is create 100k+ jobs for 100ks out of nothing. He’s a true entrepreneur. He’s not running a hot dog stand. He solves problems, offers solutions and gives real people opportunities. Not the theoretical we that Bernie sites- and has never actually done anything for- but real good opportunities for real people. He has created families, industries, entrepreneurs of the future. He is everything Trump is not, and the only one who will not cower in the face of a bully. The only man who can win
There is clearly a right and a wrong involved here. The Republican president has obstructed justice, has committed high crimes and misdemeanors, and yes...extorted Ukraine to get help in digging up dirt on Biden.
The Republicans IF they get their way, will destroy our Nation. Period. You okay with this?!
1
No most people do not care.
Re: Wm. Barr: just what would you have Congressional Democrats do about him? Have a small impeachment now, a bigger one later?
Today I became more convinced that:
* Trump is in total control of the Republicans (nation wide) through fear, money and racism.
* The impeachment process will energize both Republicans and Democrats- for a few a months-
* The Senate will acquit Trump of any wrongdoings.
* Democrats should keep with legal/court venue about the subpoenas - all the way
* A few cases will land on SCOTUS - that will prove if Justice Roberts was sincere and serious about his “there are no Obama judges....”
* There is a very good chance that Trump will lose the elections if there is a great Democratic turnout- no matter who their candidate is.
* Putin will do whatever it takes to disrupt the elections.
* Be prepared for a “nasty” turmoil if Trump looses
* I don’t know if I will ever see the recovery of your country
Trump voters, as you point our, do not care about articles of impeachment.
No.
2
It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter.
Trump crossed the line.
True, he doesn't know what he's doing, but ignorance is not defense. When he accepted the nomination and the presidency he accepted the consequences of getting caught at doing something that was impeachable. His supporters should blame him for having wasted their best intentions. The blame is with him, not them, and this gets them off the hook without having to admit they had voted for a bozo.
1
Good advice: cut your loses, Dems. This is not your winning hand.
No.
The voters need to see the Democrats trying to do something. And they need to see the Republicans blocking that something.
in 2018 the Democrats were given a pretty clear job by their overwhelming victory in the House. They need to be seen doing this for 2020. The exact same thing goes for the Republicans obstructing those actions.
There is no way President Trump will be impeached by the Senate. But it doesn't matter. By blocking the impeachment the Republicans will cement their loss of the suburbs.
Then the only people the Trump base will consist of will be his coalition of the religious right, the aryan nation, and 4chan
To be honest I think they should impeach them all, starting with Barr. They're all in on it up to their eyebrows. Pence and all the rest of them And when is Giuliani going to be indicted?
Americans have to get rid of Trump. After all he's borderline insane, with his finger on the nuclear trigger. Republicans might just consider that when they vote to acquit him.
Ridding the nation of Trump is one thing. But more importantly, ridding ourselves of the completely corrupt, morally bankrupt Republican Party is the only way to begin some kind of restoration of democracy to America.
1
Nihilism alert!
I can’t remember exactly how many times I’ve firmly resolved to quit reading articles with titles like:
Nothing Matters
There is No Such Thing as Truth
Trump Has Verbal Skills of 5th Grader. No One Cares.
President’s Idiocy is Unavoidable
Republicans Come Out in Favor Fascism
Ethical Behavior is Both Imaginary and Silly
Being reminded that pessimists are more often pleasantly surprised by events than are optimists, doesn’t really help people who’ve just spent their day listening to nitwits try to defend an indefensible would-be dictator.
1
Mr. Tomasky asks what percentage of Americans know how many impeachment charges were brought against Nixon, Clinton?
Along same theme, what percentage of Americans have passports, what smaller fraction use them, what still smaller fraction ever think about Ukraine, what remaining infinitesimal number of Americans care in the least what US is doing there, or what Russia is doing in US?
Fish rots from head down, AmeriCarp well-advanced toward fertilizer oblivion…
Better yet, do the voters who care about the articles of impeachment care about the voters who don't?
The impeachment is a ho-hum. Dems need to focus on the election, especially now when the candidacy roster is in a state of disarray.
Another defeatist.
Funny - isn't it? How you see these articles placed periodically?
Don't impeach Individual One; is impeaching Individual One going to backfire against the Dems? Etc.
Kind of really stands out doesn't it. Tells you where the media's collective head is at, doesn't it.
Anyone who believes the subheadline's assertion--"Everyone knows what Trump did"--should spend some time reading the Wall Street Journal's online forum. Disinformation has grotesquely corrupted understanding in the Trump cult.
1
Everyone knows that Biden and his son did it!! The rest is commentary.
NYT Please Advise: Given...
...the perilous trajectories of our country and planet,
...the powerful evidence presented during the House impeachment hearings,
...and the anticipated sham trial of Trump in the U.S. Senate,
...at what point does the NYT take the lead, as one of the nation’s most respected news organizations, and call for Trump’s resignation (without the benefit of a Pence pardon – for Trump or himself)?
Thank you.
+++++++++++++++
FYI: A bit of history from Wikipedia:
Impeachment Process Against Richard Nixon
On November 4, 1973, Senator Edward Brooke became the first congressional Republican to publicly urge President Nixon to resign. That same week, several newspapers, including The Atlanta Journal, The Denver Post, The Detroit News and The New York Times, published editorials also urging him to resign. Time magazine, in the first editorial in 50 years of publication, did so as well, declaring that the president "has irredeemably lost his moral authority" to govern effectively, and that Nixon "and the nation have passed a tragic point of no return."
1
Barr, Pompeo, and Pence should all be impeached for aiding and abetting Trump’s misdeeds.
1
Truth is truth; and telling that takes a certain amount of time. The 'truth' of the corruptions perpetrated by this President and his enablers will take time to discuss. That's the right path, whether 'voters' care or not has nothing to do with it.
I am glad many Americans are good and decent and honorable. I am glad that we are facing the braggart, bully, lying shyster that now sits in the White House. I am glad that sometimes, to some people, standing up is still the right thing to do.
The earth's climate is destroying earth because of our habits. The criminal inequality and concentrations of wealth and poverty is destroying our communities. These must be dealt with.
Trump's the worst of all our human emotions and weaknesses. But even after this cancer on America is gone, we have so much to face.
Grow up, America. Face these monumental and fundamental challenges we have. Create the more perfect Union. Work for the greater good. Be good citizens.
“A republic if you can keep it”
That so many don’t care make Ben’s quote more relevant than ever.
If Trump gets away with this, your republic is lost.
I wonder.
Do voters even care about Tomasky’s opinion?
If not why do he and the Times offer it?
I mean If the standard is what the voters pay attention to. Which Tomasky says it is.
When the history of these times is written 50 and 100 years from now, President Trump, impeached and (perhaps) driven from office or (probably) defeated for re-election will be partially exonerated. He will be seen as a man completely unprepared for the presidency who managed to identify some serious problems in America but found himself lost in trying to carry out his duties. He will be portrayed as an idiot who tried to do his best but never settled into the job because he didn't understand it, government, the Constitution or the respective powers of the three branches of government. He will be used as an objection lesson: experience counts.
A lot of presidents have failed to grasp the best path to understanding the office and their given situations. Jimmy Carter, military trained engineer, thought it was a management job. Lyndon Johnson failed to see he could end the Vietnam war by his own decision. Bill Clinton, inexperienced in Washington politics, fearfully let himself be drawn further and further toward impeachment when he had sufficient power and opportunities to end it. Obama wanted to be a legislative president but the vote of 2010 left him without a central purpose.
Tragic figures? Perhaps. Trump could one day be seen as one and thus due some sympathy.
3
It is pretty clear to me and many others that the Trump administration is the most corrupt in our history. A complete investigation of all of the issues should take whatever time is necessary, and report clearly understandable findings. No finding of facts will change the minds on many die-hard Trump supporters - voters and the Congress - who, for whatever reason, are willing to put up with Trump's destructive policies. It is a mystery to me that the Republicans can't seem to find anyone who is aligned with their policy goals and is not such a disgusting person.
I care, very much. Initially, I did not want impeachment because I knew we would not win in the Senate because the GOP have sold their souls. However, when Trump's corruption and violation of the Constitution became so obvious to me, I changed my mind. Politically, the Democrats will lose, morally, it is the right thing to do. Americans must stand up to corrupt individuals if we want to keep our democracy which is now in danger of being lost. The President of the U.S., must be held up to a higher standard than the rest of us. This man's corruption is so obvious, he tells us he does it. Somewhere in his brain he thinks he can do no wrong. This is his dysfunctional thinking, it is always all about him. As far as Ukraine being corrupt, what does that have to do with Trump's behavior, his violation of the Constitution? His offer of a bribe for dirt on the Biden. Joe Biden's son was stupid, and he hurt his father, but it has not been proven that he did anything illegal. As far as Senator Biden, he was doing the bidding of the President and a number of Nato nations.
The entire impeachment circus is a transparent attempt by Democrats to end run the 2020 election who outcome is otherwise very clear. Trump, with all his personal faults, has done a creditable job and has been keeping his campaign promises even as the economy is firing on all pistons. The Democrats have nothing to show, and the Democrat candidate lineup is overwhelmingly underwhelming, indeed pathetic.
I care--deeply.
Sorry, I'm not getting it. What is Barr's expected action that will eclipse impeachment? Overruling the IG? Huh?
Do voters care? Well, I would care if the Democrats had proof that Trump entered into a conspiracy with Russia to engage in cybercrimes in the US. Oh, wait - Mueller said that didn't happen. So what are we talking about here? About the fact that Trump wanted the Bidens soft corruption investigated? And that Trump refused to waive claims of executive privilege and instead insisted on a court determining their validity? Really, get a life.
This voter considers the Trump Impeachment the singularly most significant political action in this nation's history - as ALL voters should. It makes Nixon's look like a tea party.
We have a rogue president supported by a blind and deaf cult of partisan liars and obstructionists who care nothing about this country, only about their power and jobs. There exists more than adequate evidence of Trump's Impeachable offenses at many levels, even without all the witnesses that he has refused to permit to testify via illegal powers. Were they to so do, Trump would be perp-walked out of the White House the following day, and he knows this as do his sycophants.
What is most appalling are the lies, hatred and manipulations of Republicans like Gaetz, Gohmert and Jordan. Their "Constitutional expert" looks horrifyingly like Barr and even has the same warped legal outlook - a Republican gun-for-hire and NOT a legitimate law professor. Why is it that they care so little about this nation that they cannot accept facts or tell the truth? Are they so glued to the narcissistic sociopath-in-chief that they have no minds of their own or any concept of morals or ethics - or are they too cowardly to take a stance for the survival of this country?
1
(Many) Americans have such limited attention span, and need "entertainment" to feel satisfied. Trump's base, fed a steady stream of misinformation and FOX conspiracy garbage, will enjoy being distracted from healthcare and real issues plaguing the country. My hope is that the enabling Republicans who have hitched their wagons to this lunatic have to look their grandchildren in the eyes and explain why they supported corruption.
The US Constitution prevails. Impeachment by the House checks Donald. Alleluia to the Founding Fathers.
But the Dems are leaving a great deal on the table, and leaving some critical legal issues unresolved.
The Divine Rights of Presidential Immunity remains intact.
Bolton, Pompeo, Mulvaney, Perry etc. remain in unrepentant defiance of Congressional subpoenas.
Herr Trump remains unpunished for the hush money for Daniels and McDonald.
Dear Leader obstructed the Mueller Theater Production.
Contempt of many House committees......
Why not drag this out through the spring?
JulieAnnie. An agreement with Lev.
Bolton might shift from Greed Over Patriotism.
The latest CNN poll is interesting.
"But there's another element at play here: Voters feel impeachment is not all that important in the grand scheme of things.
Our poll released last week asked voters to tell us how important eight different issues would be in determining their 2020 vote. Only 46% said the impeachment inquiry into Trump was extremely or very important to their vote. That was good enough for dead last. To put it in further perspective, the top two issues for voters were economy at 83% and health care at 80%."
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/03/politics/impeachment-polling-analysis/index.html
Everyone knows trump is a crook and uses the office of the presidency like a Don (hmmm...)
Now let's force the GOP sheep to recall their oaths of office - whether they promised to defend and protect the simpleton in the White House or the Constitution. This should be fun.
Bribery!
Ukraine!
Harvard law professors!
Christmas cards to write.
Gifts to buy.
Parties to attend.
Impeachment!
Holiday television specials.
Eggnog.
Christmas trees.
Is there still a Democratic primary?
Football bowl games.
Happy New Year!
Resolutions to shed those holiday pounds.
Snowstorms.
Senate trial.
Quid Pro Joe and Ukrainian corruption.
Snowstorms.
Quid Pro Joe and Ukrainian corruption.
Acquittal!
“Total exoneration.”
“Complete innocence.”
Football playoffs.
Is Joe Biden still running for president? Are any Democrats?
It all sort of runs together, especially this time of year.
The primary impacts of the impeachment will be:
1. Rehashing the current Democratic front runner’s influence peddling scheme in the Ukraine.
2. Strengthening Trump with his base.
3. Completing diverting limited attention spans from the Democrats’ 2020 message.
In the end, Trump will come out stronger than ever.
My goodness. Mr. Tomasky believes 5% of Americans know how many article of impeachment the House passed against Nixon and Clinton. Try .0005 percent, Mike.
Do "voters" even care....
Which voters?
The smart ones do indeed care!
TYpical NYT op-ed. "everybody knows. (Check out the Leonard Cohen song.) What do we know: he gave the quid. he didn't get the quo.
There are lots of good reasons to impeach Trump. To impeach him on the basis of CIA "whistleblowing" when Trump seems to threaten to expose--God forbid--Biden corruption looks like a partisan power-play (read: coup).
Beat him at the ballot box.
If Jonathan Turley is a serious Constitutional Scholar, then I must be Baby Yoda. Where is my crib?
Maybe the Republicans think that he is, or maybe they brought him in to lighten up the mood with his expected, and perfectly delivered 180 turnaround of what he has argued before, particularly during the Clinton impeachment, or perhaps they thought that his outrageous interpretations of the Constitution would confuse, if not the other scholars testifying nor Chairman Nadler, at least the audience at Fox. (In which they probably succeeded).
Looking sardonic Professor Turley stated that bribery, if committed by the President was not a crime defined by Law when the Constitution was written, so the President could not be charged under the Constitution. Wow. That from a Law Professor.
And later on he continued: Chairman Schiff should have taken his time and issued subpoenas for those who were ordered by the President not to testify, that is Rudi, Pence, Pompeo, Bolton, Mulvaney et al and when they refused fight them in court, level by level all the way up to the Supreme Court and Kavanaugh. It would have taken years, but then he said, why the rush?
More coal mines closed in 3 years of Trump than eight years of Obama, and more coal power plants went bankrupt in the same period.
This proves that at least in this one area Trump made America better, as the red hats imported from abroad promised. So contrary to what liberals say, Trump is not lying 100% of the time. In fact Trump outperformed Obama in this one area eliminating coal that emits toxic pollution. Of course Trump had an unfair advantage over Obama with six bankruptcies under his belt to Obama's zero.
However this does not justify his servility to Putin. Trump is a traitor for having asked Putin for help and he should be thrown out of office as soon as possible.
1
History demands a broad accounting, and history doesn't give damn how many GOP collaborators deflect away from the hideous truths.
Why should we care about what the voters think? The law is the law. If we depended on voters to determine who should be ticketed for running a red light, the answers would be variable. But running a red light is, in fact, a crime. Variability in sentences according to popular esteem undermines the very concept of law. We are all supposed to be subject to the same principles of law even as we know that power, money, and influence, can alter the results. But to reduce the idea to a popularity contest is equal to throwing in the towel. No!
30
Definitely I care, everybody I know cares.
However I'm not a voter, I'm not even an American citizen (I am a Canadian).
But I am deeply troubled by people like Donald Trump committing crimes and getting away with it and attempting to use public office to shield themselves and their cronies from legal responsibility. I'm very worried by the precedent he is trying to set which promises to affect and to define democracies around the world.
America is the global seat of democracy, Americans have a duty to uphold democracy. If Republicans won't do it in 2019 then American voters will have to do it in 2020.
39
I'm a voter. I care and deeply about Articles of Impeachment. It is the constitutional duty of congress to address the actions of any president, and this one is no exception. I care not a bit about winning or losing elections when the very essence of our constitutional system is at stake.
38
A Senate trial will just be a circus. I despise what Trump has done, but other than going on record, impeachment by the House accomplishes nothing, and Trump will later claim he was exonerated which is maddening.
If House impeaches, they should add a dollop of Censure at the same time for the multitude of other Trumpian misdeeds, so that he can be remembered in history as the worst President of all time. The Senate cannot overturn a House censure.
And please leave at least one investigation open so that appeals can be reviewed by the Supremes on the false issue of absolute Presidential immunity. We need to set that record straight for posterity and not let Trump run out the clock.
39
Sorry, I disagree. “Everyone (?) does” NOT “know what Trump did.” And the frightening point of that is: those who don’t know also don’t care. They are not listening to testimony. They are being spoon fed pablum from Fox, if they even get that. And worse, they don’t even care about the truth. For example, just look at Rep. Jordan who can’t contain himself he’s so wound up in right wing nonsense theories. Trump will be impeached by this House and this package will go to the Senate where more Republicans will be as ignorant and insulting as Rep. Gary Collins and then Trump won’t be packing his bags at the White House. Then those Americans who don’t care and don’t accept reality will be the loudest to shout: see we told you so ‘cause he’s still there! But the rest of us have our eye is on the prize: he shall be voted o-u-t.
49
"Do Voters Even Care About the Articles of Impeachment?"
Care as in it dominates discussion around the bar, the health club, in the grocery aisles? Not that I have heard.
But I suspect that voters are paying attention enough so that this will influence the outcome of next year's election. The returns from the 2018 congressional midterms and the subsequent elections since (ALA., KY., VA), suggest that there are a number of voters who are getting weary of trump. His behavior in Europe at the NATO summit in London, is just adding another straw to the camel's back.
66
Trump and his actions need to be documented. Yes I care about this Impeachment process.
15
@Phil Hurwitz
I hear people all over Indianapolis talking about it a lot.
And every single person thinks Trump is the very definition of corruption.
6
The moment Democrats shut down this process any later evidence resulting from court decisions against Trump, from further whistleblower or witness revelations, or from Trump himself will be out of bounds.
The Democrats' rush to conclude this process may prove their catastrophic mistake as more evidence manna falls upon them, just as the Ukraine scandal did right after the Mueller Report. 'Slow down, you're movin' too fast'.
1
Every Democrat behind the weakest. We can discuss policy after we have power.
1
Americans have become ultra cynical, with lots of help from Trump and his conspiracy theories. In Turmp's world, everything is rotten, you get what you can get, you take what you can take and most importantly, nothing is worng unless you get caught.
But even on this last point, Trump is hardly the first corrupt or amoral businessman. People who voted for him knew what they were getting. They may have hoped for better but they got and see no reason to punish him for being who he is. If someday, his taxes are relased, they will applaud him for beating the system.
1
I'm a voter and I care.
1
I am a voter, all my friends are voters and we care! We want the criminal Trump impeached and then prosecuted!
2
This voter cares. I remember watching Nixon's impeachment, and Trump is far worse. That Trump refuses to turn over documents that belong to the office, not to him personally and forbids his collaborators to speak before the House proves that he is obstructing justice.
1
President withholds Congressionally authorized military aid until country in question publicly smears President's 2020 opponent. Obvious extortion and abuse of power. Impeach immediately.
When I heard that Trump had won. I thought, well, the power has shifted to the right again. No problem. The republicans will rein him in and everything will be ok. Never did I think or believe that we would devolve into an idiocracy. It happened. The Democrats are trying desperately to save us from a party so desperate to rule that they allow a man so unfit that they trash the very country that we call home.
I’m a voter. I care very much.
1
Everyone knows what Trump did.
No , they don't.
The President of the Ukraine has stated repeatedly that there was no quid pro quo. Last time to four (4!) European newspapers .
Mr. Shiff is holding up signs "Was there a quid pro quo ? Yes"
Who knows better ? The President of the Ukraine, or a Congressman from NYC ?
"Everyone knows what Trump did. The Democrats shouldn’t draw out the process any longer than necessary."
Except for the other headline in today's Times. I guess that not all of the scholars got the memo.
"In New Phase of Impeachment, Legal Scholars Clash over Case"
In short, you're saying we don't need any proof. Hearsay evidence from a biased selection of witnesses and and the star witness (Sondland) accused of sexual impropriety - that's no problem. You "know" so much that you are willing to overturn an rightfully elected President.
All of America elected a Democratic Congress two years into the Trump Presidency as a direct counterbalance to the horrific behavior they were directly observing. Stamping the word “impeached” across his forehead will ensure history remembers that critical fact with total clarity.
True outline a tight case, vote and let Americans watch the GOP surrender their morals to defend the Trump Let American see how low the GOP has sunk. This is what happens when you let the dregs once known as Dixiecrat control the Party of Lincoln, They happily ditch it to be the party of the Trump.
don’t pack quite the punch that Fiona Hill did.
-------
She confirmed that the political plant of "Ukraine server" was a plant by Russia, and this was established in Muller report, and Russian agents convicted. Yet disregarding all these President Trump, as evident in the transcript, soaked up the Russian disinformation to accuse Ukraine. This audacity is despairing to all discerning.
Wait for the compelled testimony of Pompeo, Bolton, et al. There’s more to learn, and another few weeks won’t bother anyone except some Republicans.
Sure would shake things up if Rudy Giuliani got indicted and cashed in his ‘insurance policy’.
The stew is not yet cooked. Needs a few more ingredients and a little seasoning, then a little time to marry. Always better the second day anyhow.
The real question is: do voters -- the deplorables in rural swing districts -- even care when Ivy league legal scholars preach their partisan Trump-hating philosophy?
My bet is, they do.
Add that to 30% blacks who already do.
Add hispanics to the mix.
We don't need pollsters to predict the 2020 results with 95% certainty.
What thepublic thinks is based on how they understand. The media,liberal and conservative,have confused the whole process with its dramatics and misleading headlines.
As for those who claim that they,or all trump supporters are knowledgeable of corruption levels in Ukraine,please save yourself the immense embarrassment.
The answer to the question framed by the title of this article is NO.
The arrival of the trump administration brought the END of true journalism. There are no “Bernsteins and Woodwards,” no “Huntleys and Brinkleys,” and absolutely no “Walter Cronkites” in existence anymore. Reporters today do not investigate anything unless some sort of sexual scandal is involved, because the sordid details of sexual abuse are entertaining and garner the ad dollars. The corporate interests that control the media are more concerned about being out-scooped by their competitors and will not devote much time and money to the type of deep research and sleuthing that goes with muckraking reporting. And so, the entire MSM seems to have devolved into a “Hunger Games” type of system that fails to report on anything that really matters. Witness their obsequious attention to spreading conspiracy theories and propaganda and their simultanious refusal to even name the laws that have been broken by the Trump Administration. It's quick work, based on shallow soundbites and it gets the ad dollars.
Reporting on Trump's breaking of the law as stated at 52 USC Section 30121(a) is boring; the “dry and dusty” legal issues surrounding the threat to our liberties have nothing to offer to the rabble who have a morbid, degrading and unhealthy interest in sex, violence and drama that is the Trump Administration. Is it any wonder that people actually think that Trump did nothing wrong?
This seems to be exactly what the Dems on the Judiciary Committee are trying to do. Hurry it along. Yesterday's
"sum it all up" witnesses were painful and boring to watch. Oddly it's the Repubs who are now crowing for more facts. Their guy was ludicrous in arguing that "we just don't have enough information..." Let's get this over with and go back to trying to save the country--impeachment ain't going to do it.
Many of us do care a whole lot! A number of people care because we recognize the path of facism that Trump would gladly take. People who aren't concerned about Trump and his behavior perhaps think they would not personally be touched by his corruption. History shows they would be mistaken.
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As many comments here show, the public has become so ignorant as to the Constitutional basis for impeachment that it will accept not only impeachable conduct but criminal conduct as well from the president. The Republicans are moving from support of a democracy to that of a dictatorship in which the president is supported for any conduct and any efforts he makes to cover up that conduct.
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Yes, I care deeply about the Constitution, about Democracy, and about the Impeachment too. To many of us, it has been obvious for a long time, that Trump is a traitor and a very dark soul. We are a part of "the American People" too.
Of course the Articles matter. What Democrats need to do, though, is explain why Trump's actions are wrong and put lie to Mulvaney's statement that such quid peo quo happens all the time. It doesn't. Yes, the U.S. withholds aid unless, for example, a country doesn't clean up its human rights record. That's not really quid pro quo. It's not the same at all as Trump withholding mikitary aid that Congress had already approved and which our Pentagon said Ukraine desperately needed in it's fight with Russia. All for the political purpose of getting Trump re-elected. Wholly inappropriate and an abuse of his power and office. Attempted extortion is a crime just like attempted murder is. Trump doesn't get a pass because he got caught before he completed the deed.
P S. Why are we not following up on all those Republicans meeting with Vladimir Putin on July 4, 2019? Why aren't reporters pursuing this?
When your defense has been reduced to "The Democrats are doing it too fast," you might ask youself if you're on the right side in the first place. It appears that most Republicans are too cowardly to ask themselves this question.
President Trump's crimes against the Constitution are out in the open for anyone who is not one of his lemmings to see. There is the abuse of office in pressuring Ukraine to assist him in political skulduggery, using American tax dollars to that end. There is also the blatant defiance of House subpoenas and directives that his underlings not comply with any attempt by a coequal branch of government to make him answer for his actions.
Let's be clear about this: These offenses do not even begin to address his declaration of the "phony emoluments clause" or his refusal to turn over financial information, including tax returns and other records which would undoubtedly connect him to corrupt Russian oligarch money.
President Trump is a tsunami of a criminal enterprise occupying the office of the president of the United States in plain sight. His supporters seem to be fine with that.
The bottom line? That voters don't care? Maybe ignorant and dimwitted voters do not care, and we cannot expect anything more from such people.
Dimwits did not write the Constitution. Nor did the ignorant.
This idea of the various "counts" of impeachment not being a big deal is, ultimately, complete nonsense: It matters a lot, and it is the duty, the Constitutional duty, of Congress to remove, as quickly as possible, a President who violates the Constitution.
And getting the rationale right, in terms of such a removal, matters a lot too. Trump is entitled to know the rationale for this action by Congress, and what charges he has to defend. That is a matter of process.
The moment Trump stated that he would not cooperate with the process, and the moment he forbade his toadies from testifying, that was in effect a public announcement that he was unfit for office.
Any voter who cannot see that Trump is violating the law and Constitution is brainwashed and ignorant. Maybe it is not entirely the fault of such voters, considering the resources invested in moulding public opinion, but it is still shameful. As is the argument against impeachment that the economy is doing great.
The House needs to do its duty and act.
Dear Nancy... After the judiciary completes its inquiry, schedule the House impeachment vote for the final day of the lame duck session in 2021.
That Trump is guilty as charged, one must be living in Mars to deny his criminality. And not impeaching this mafia-like behavior must be considered political malpractice. If the people don't show such a vulgar bully their teeth, this shameless 'rabid dog' (by lying and insulting with glee) will go on, with Putin's assistance, in re-assaulting the presidency next year. Phe public may not care about the number of articles for impeachment but they surely shall appreciate the effort in a clean and straight try to re-establish justice in this country, and restore a modicum of trust in it's democratic institutions. Among Trump's accomplices, William Barr advertised his obvious intent in defending him against all evidence, disgracing himself for ever; in all fairness, Barr ought to be processed for obstructing justice as well. Otherwise, we might as well change the name of his 'charge', to Department of Injustice.
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All I care about is being faithful to the Oath of Office all elected officials take.
Enough said.
But to those who are a bit denser - do your job, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.
You shall not engage in treason, bribery, or any other high crime or misdemeanor.
How hard is it to understand what your Oath requires? Representative? Senator? President?
Voters care that Democrats are abusing impeachment powers as a means of exacting revenge. They have succeeded in make bad government even worse and have literally accomplished nothing since they took control of the House. They’re beginning to resemble tin-pot South American politicians. Voters will remember in eleven months.
American democracy is extinct. A vote in the spirit of democracy is as common as the right whale. With campaign donations overwhelmed by superpacs and billionaires, the social media sending specific campaign lies to target audiences, foreign agencies bending the electoral process and a domestic despot putting nose rings in his political herd and excreting lies like a cnidarian, with absolutely no consequences, why vote?
I’m tired of the media and pundits who claim Americans aren’t paying attention to the impeachment hearings and Trump’s transgressions. That we are disinterested or somehow incapable of understanding what is going on, that we are all so dumb that we can only process one or two facts/articles of impeachment because more than that will confuse our poor, weak little brains. This is, quite frankly, an insult. Most of us are very capable of absorbing the facts and processing them - as long as we receive them in the first place. If we don’t “get it” it’s most likely because the media we expose ourselves to isn’t doing what it’s supposed to do. When the media does their job and presents the facts accurately and without partisan spin (I’m remembering you, Walter Chronkite), the voters are more than capable of doing theirs.
I agree with this article's primary assertions. There is no reasonable question about Trump's malfeasance, and everyone on this planet knows his total sum of malfeasances and ugly turns are 100x more than is needed for a strong rebuke through impeachment. Can you imagine what the dozens upon dozens of former and current 'associates' of Trump could tell you?
Personally, I would impeach this person due to his focus on people he does not like due to the petty wasted time our president should apply on presidential concerns. I would impeach him due to his total disregard of emoluments, where he is enriching himself via the office he holds. I would impeach him due to his incredible, pathological lying, in recalling why Republicans impeached WJC.
1
Yes. Voters care about the articles of impeachment.
Voters are acutely concerned about the fact that a man who lacks the experience, intelligence, knowledge, demeanor and character to be the POTUS, is.
Voters hope that the articles of impeachment will lead to the president’s senatorial trial conviction. If corrupt lock-step partisan politics prevent conviction, voters hope that the revelations of the impeachment process will contribute to Trump’s defeat in the 2020 general election.
Our unbalanced, deceitful, fraud of a president coupled with the propaganda broadcast by a TV network that excuses his actions and supports the continuation of his misguided administration constitute a dire threat to American democracy.
The presidency of Donald Trump is a joke. Unfortunately, it is thr least funny joke in our nation’s history.
No one’s laughing. And voters do care about the articles of impeachment.
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The way I read this, Mr. Tomasky seems to think that the Democrats are putting themselves at a disadvantage because people will get bored with the whole impeachment business and vote for whoever they vote for in 2020. Well, they didn’t get bored with Nixon and Watergate, and when the “smoking gun” tape finally came out on August 5, 1974 — two years after the break-in — Nixon lost his Republican supporters and resigned four days later. Searching for the truth isn’t dragging things out — although that’s what the Republicans want people like Mr. Tomasky to think. Nixon wanted people to think it, too. Remember when he said, “One year of Watergate is enough.” It wasn’t.
Yes. We do care. We also care about the arrogance of the Republicans that they are dealing out, the rude and crude way they are speaking to those testifying, today, who actually are probably more educated and experienced in their realm of expertise than any of the Republican questioners.
It is embarrassing to see the people who have come forth to see the maltreatment by elected legislators. We taxpayers are footing the salaries of these snarky, pompous disrespectful lot.
We need to apologize for those who shame us and our government. This is what the Trump regime lays on us. Shameful.
Come forth, Donald Trump, take the stand. We want to see you and hear you. Get some courage if that is possible.
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Every House Democrat should read this column. There are two competing stories now. Trump did it and he should be ousted. Trump did nothing remotely worthy of ousting. There is no neutral referee. Get impeachment done. Hope the Senate trial doesn’t take too long before he’s “acquitted.” I ask myself, if at this stage this saga were a Netflix series would I watch it? Ugh. I would watch a series showing smart Democrats eviscerating Trump on health care, climate change, white nationalism, disastrous tariffs, taxes, self-dealing, sexism and a whole table full of missteps and lies. Bring it on!
There is an answer. It i s, yes, we care. Stop saying otherwise.
The House didn’t pass any articles of impeachment against Nixon; that was the House Judiciary Committee that approved the two.
This article's hypothesis is correct in my opinion. The voters don't care. To the GOP Trump is a god, a leader of their cult. They will argue in the face of reality that Trump never does anything wrong and that the media are biased and all they print is fake news. As for the Democrats, the articles of impeachment don't matter because we know a false prophet and a cult leader when we see one. He will be impeached it and Trump will tweet after he's not convicted by the Senate with the word, Exonerated! And then follow up with, See I told you so! So, no the impeachment won't make a difference. I am voting ABT in the next election.
The more the merrier. How to choose?
Every American should care and want to see this President shown to the door, the back door.
Many Americans do not understand why they should care about what the President did to Ukraine. The Demos have done a poor job of relating the presidential errata to our everyday lives.
Yes, I do care as an overseas voter.
The problems of US politics nowadays are (1) Rationalization has taken a back seat, while emotions are rampant; (2) Logical thinking is replaced with emotional pleas; (3) Partisanship dominates the societies over patriotism.
A divided society without a reasonable foundation of trust has poisoned US politics. We need to understand the root causes and fix it before the next election.
Trump becoming an laughing stock at the NATO gathering does not help anyone. The news is a real embarrassment, https://www.vox.com/2019/12/4/20995038/trump-trudeau-video-nato-summit.
Agree about the duplicitous Attorney General. Shocking how unprincipled this man is.
Democrats should do this, Democrats should do that. Excuse me but where is your advice for Republicans?!
Oh , many of us do care. Like so many other people we are sick and tired of the news media, looking at you NYT , only ever talking to undecideds or trump supporters.. Heck, how many can there be? There is truth, and then there is opinion. We want more truth and less opinion. Of course, feelings are important. Are we basing our democracy on what we feel, or what is correct? " Whaaaaah, you hurt my feelings , therefore I will kick you." Is this what we have become? Maybe we do not deserve this Country, or this Constitution.
Watched it for some time yesterday... "Some" because it's really time consuming...
Here's what I got:
GOP do not deny it anymore: "Ok, granted, he did it, but after all it's not that big, not that bad, and not worth all this, and you, the Dems, are dividing this nation.
Well... sorry folks but first of all, your nation is already deeply divided, thanks to Trump himself, consorts, and Fox News among others...
And second, sorry again but this Ukraine stuff is much more serious than the sexual adventure of Clinton and you know who, because in many countries his sexual affairs would have simply gone totally unnoticed as in.. who cares who the guy sleeps with.
The problem is that Trump's offense = dead bodies in Ukraine and very serious damage to 1) US's image in the Free World, 2) to national security, and 3) an immensely bad message sent to Russia. (As well as to Iran, Turkey, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, among others.)
So, dear GOP, if this is NOT impeachable, well… the way we see it from outside the USA, then nothing will ever be and you should immediately remove even the mention of it (Impeachment) in your Constitution.
Good luck folks - I’m afraid that you'll need lots of it!
Tomasky well off the mark here. I didn't vote for the grifter, but the obstruction case is solidified with the American public if Trump were to defy the Supreme Court. Yes there is a risk they rule in his favor, but if they don't and he doesn't comply with SCOTUS order that would be a bridge too far for even several GOP senators,
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It matters that all of this is on record no matter which way it goes, how sexy it is, or whether it makes the Top 10. History will judge who erred and what their error was. I suspect the republicans will not look so good from a historical perspective no matter what happens; if the country survives and remains Constitutional, then the republicans' very anti Constitutional ideology will taint their legacy. And if the country abandons the Constitution, then historians studying the carcass of the USA will probably see this impeachment and the republican party's actions as the turning point of its demise.
1
I certainly care, but of course I'm from the People's Republic of Massachusetts, so I must be some kind of nut with a rule-of-law fetish. My 79-year-old uncle in Maryland does not care. He voted for Trump and despite being dismayed by much of his behavior, will probably vote for him again if anyone other than Biden gets the Democratic nomination. My uncle's attitude is: we should have assumed Trump would conduct foreign policy like a bully so what's the big deal? [Sigh.]
Recent elections prove voters are listening with even deep red state wins for the democrats. Trump will lose next November and he may be tossed out even sooner.
2
I think the Dems should keep the discussion of Trumpian corruption in front of the public until election day in 2020. There is certainly enough material to fill up a full year...
Trump beat Democrat darling Hillary in 2016. If an election is held now and Trump's opponent is any one of the Democrats currently running for the nomination, Trump wipes the floor with the opponent. So instead of just running against him fair and square in under a year, it looks like the Dems prefer to knock him out of the running now.
1
Trump's Ukraine dealings don't matter to me at all. If you didn't like him at first, they're just more reasons to dislike him. I didn't mind him and still don't, the predictions about his presidency causing the doom of the US were overblown and in fact I've seen evidence of a strong economy.
The worst I can say about him is that he's rude and crude like so many other people we encounter.
His Ukraine baggage doesn't affect me or those I care about and I have a feeling similar things happen all the time (except more traditional presidencies would have more leeway before a whistleblower would leak something to the press. I have a feeling the whistleblower here was just waiting for an impeachable opportunity.)
To me and those I know, this is truly an "inside the beltway" matter between The Establishment and Trump and a lot of people I know would like to see Trump thumb his nose at it.
What's becoming the most disturbing aspect of these proceedings is the republican's utter lack of vision. It's almost impossible to believe that there isn't one republican who is willing to speak up about what is so patently obvious. The character of the president is bad. His many actions speak for themselves. There must be a lot of powerless republicans who are squirming in their seats knowing that, yes, he is a bad man but I can't say anything or I'll lose my job. So much for country above party. Let's all keep our memories strong to be able to recall the names of the enablers.
1
The Hunter Biden thing sounds a bit dubious but Trump hasn’t shown much interest in investigating corruption otherwise; quite the opposite.
Voters? All 165 million of them who are eligible?
Well, no. Only a fraction care about impeachment.
Let's say no one cared (tree fell and no one heard), are you suggesting it produced no noise? If you are a relativist, then: "no noise, what do we know anyway?" If you are an absolutist, then: 'yes noise, yes sine wave, we know for sure."
Yes Trump's was a crime, an act of commission, and it is wrong, illegal, immoral, unworthy, punishable.
Seems to me like you would be in favor of having cops taking a survey of public opinion before arresting someone. Or in favor of judges holding focus groups of cell-phone absorbed voters to see how they feel about all this, before handing out sentences.
What on earth is the matter with you, and what explains this explosively dangerous premise of your article.
“There must never be a narrowly voted impeachment or an impeachment substantially supported by one of our major political parties and largely opposed by the other. Such an impeachment would lack legitimacy, would produce divisiveness and bitterness in our politics for years to come and will call into question the very legitimacy of our political institutions.”
—Rep. Jerry Nadler at the 1998 Clinton Judicial Committee impeachment hearing.
1
Funny how it’s always about the Democrats have to watch out what they’re doing but I never read pieces about the price Republican senators might pay if they don’t take seriously the Impeachment charges and reflexively acquit Trump. They have to face the voters in 2020. Their base is forty percent. The rest of us who have not been brainwashed by Fox News will judge them harshly.
Maybe it is the technician in me, but I'd prefer if the formal process plays out in its entirety, regardless of how boring it is for some (it's a formal proceeding, not a lynch mob, thankfully). Regardless of the election outcome, I'd like on historical record, as comprehensive an account of his wrongdoings as possible. History will iron out the rest.
The problem is that they are trying to impeach him for the same reason everyone voted for him. We are far enough into the process for Schiff know that without Republican help this is not going to happen. It's boring to the American public. Dems have been gunning for him since 2016. I guess if this helps them get it out of their system it's a good thing. Just hurry up so that things get back to normal.
The Republicans have a decision to make: do they want to live in a democracy? If so, they need to hold the president accountable for inviting foreign interference into the electoral process. Right now it appears that, at least to the Republicans in power, the answer is no. They care about "conservative" policies more than democracy itself. (I'm not sure what's particularly conservative about taking health insurance and food from the poor, but these seem to be their strongly held beliefs). The bad faith arguments and truly epic levels of hypocrisy are simply a testament to the fact that they know the president is wrong but somehow feel a need to defend him anyway.
Yes, it is agreed that the onslaught of impeachment hearings can be draining to the average American. However, in electing Trump, a businessman without ethical compass and more accurately a brazen liar, this is what you get. This "someone outside Washington," as the eager populace wanted, knows nothing of rules, laws, ethics, and honor. But that's what they wanted, so that is what they will get.
If the country re-elects him, with his approval rating in the low 40s, then we know what our average American is made of: simpletons who don't value our institutions and laws.
I'm proud of the Democrats for saying "Enough." Whether the Republicans will look beyond their tribal allegiances is highly doubtful at this point, but I'm very glad the Democrats are standing up for our Constitution and for the honor of our country. Mr. Tomasky, I'm sorry for your cynicism. I will continue to hope that most Americans do care about calling out cheaters and grifters in our government, particularly a cheater and grifter who is also our president.
This whole exercise has only one purpose: to expose what Trump was up to and to try to reduce the chances that he will do it again. We have a year left to suffer his mendacity. Having the electorate warned that he will engage in any corrupt actions he can imagine to get re-elected may be enough for voters to send him away. I’m not holding my breath that Republicans will actually remove him.
The serial murderer who killed 100 people over a couple decades but is charged and convicted of only two because of evidentiary issues in the other cases is still a convicted murderer. The prosecution can still make its case about the other 98 in the court of public opinion. Donald Trump is a equally odious individual, and we can impeach him on two or three counts and still enumerate his many misdeeds that escaped counts of impeachment.
Mr. Tomasky is spot on with his final thought. William Barr’s comments about religion and Democrats, his partisan support for the president rather than his being the attorney general for all Americans, and now today his comments about genuflecting before the police signal that we have an authoritarian in the office, not an American who values the rights of all Americans under the law.
I don't care about the Trump impeachment thing at all. Honestly, I just want to know how high Democrats will raise taxes on the 1% and what they will finally do to help the young generations have a good life. Assuming they will do anything along those lines; I doubt it, Democrats are wimps. I honestly have no clue what is going on with the impeachment. 2-3 articles of impeachment sound like plenty, the sooner Democrats can get back to real issues that impact the American people.
"Mr. Trump’s malefactions have been so numerous and obvious that in a just world with a rational Republican Party, he would have been removed from office within about six months of occupying it. "
Absurd, like everything the Democrts do. As far as I can see he's done nothing wrong an very very much right.
This whole affair is pure hate politics on the part of the Democrats.
Remember the Kavanaugh affair, not to mention its predecessors the Thomas and Bork affairs. They were pure partisan hate, especially Kavanaugh, for which the Democrats were unable to find any actual evidence whatsoever, just lots of outright statements that the accusation never happened.
If the Democrats want to defeat Trump again, they need to change their policies towards his, way towards his. Especially they need to get rid of their outright enthusastic endorsement of crime and criminals, and their hate of ordinary white Americans whose ancestors came here, as mine did, over 400 years ago.
("Crime" refers to illegal immigration.)
The man is so obviously dangerous. I’d take Pence, George W, Bush senior, Regan, and even Nixon. Well maybe not Nixon.
Mr. Tomasky,
I always read your articles and find them informative, prescient and helpful.
I do, however, today, hope that you do not have a crystal ball and I just want to say that everyone I know very much cares about Articles of Impeachment.
We are so exhausted and appalled by the "dereliction" and "corruption" of "duty" by this rogue President that, regardless of the outcome, it has to be done. We think every article available should be listed as a mirror for any future thug who thinks the highway to skullduggery in the Whitehouse is wide open.
The majority are in this fight. Others who may be holding out on the sidelines do so, I believe, because they fear unintended consequences. ....but that fear is far outweighed by the "consequences" that we see every day that are not to be tolerated. Human beings have died from this man's actions or inactions. ...and he needs to go - well before the ballot box to prevent even more debacles.
...and we will never forget his republican enablers.
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Republicans, especially those running for office in 2020, are desperate to attack every argument, every fact, every witness in the most brutal way because they realize that Trump's crimes will be repeated over and over again on the campaign trail tainting those running with the claim that they defended a criminal.
I am not bored with the impeachment process, inquiry, or hearings. I am discouraged. Senator John Kennedy, one of my senators, gives me reason to believe that old canard, “when you cannot argue with the truth, flood everything with lies!” The unflinching willingness of the Republican Party to resort to bald-faced lies at every point in this, to stage outrage events at the SCIF, and to unabashedly repeat documented Russian intelligence disinformation must be giving Benjamin Franklin severe indigestion. I originally though we could survive anything DJT did short of nuclear war. Unfortunately, it doesn’t even require one kiloton to destroy the republic; you just need willing accomplices.
"Everyone knows what Trump did." No. We simply know what the Democrats and the press want the public to believe what Trump did.
Since moral values are too blurry and are pushed aside by self interest, it is important to expose as many of trump wrong doing as possible in order to appeal to more people. Larger exposure of that immoral behavior may help people identify at least some of the misbehavior and thereby call their representative to vote for removal from office of this corrupt president.
if Bloomberg is the Democrat candidate, Trump should immediately ask for an exception, and run for a third term.
I'll tell you what this American citizen finds less than "riveting." Pundits and headlines that couch reporting on this crucial, make or break time in our history in terms of entertainment. As for the framers, our lives and our sacred honor should be bound up in these proceedings. Is that really a snoozefest? should we truly consider it in terms of "clashes" and "viral moments"? I'm busy, I'm tired, I've got a life. But what I have seen of today's testimony was an eloquent, passionate discussion about how we can keep the republic. I was riveted.
No, the process should end as quickly as possible without leaving pertinent information on the table. Why?
djt is unraveling at an exponential pace. His mental health has been on the edge for quite a while. Now his ego is facing the humiliation of the possibility of impeachment in real time. Adding to the mountain of stress he is living with, take a look at the greetings he has recived at the NATO summit he is leaving early.
As days pass his rage will grow and will remain uncensored. It is all to clear that he is mentally unfit for office. The man is a 'clear and present danger' to our republic. These words he once spoke frighten me then and now; "I am president and you are not."
I am not bored with the impeachment process, inquiry, or hearings. I am discouraged. Senator John Kennedy, one of my senators, gives me reason to believe that old canard, “when you cannot argue with the truth, flood everything with lies!” The unflinching willingness of the Republican Party to resort to bald-faced lies at every point in this, to stage outrage events at the SCIF, and to unabashedly repeat documented Russian intelligence disinformation must be giving Benjamin Franklin severe indigestion. I originally though we could survive anything DJT did short of nuclear war. Unfortunately, it doesn’t even require one kiloton to destroy the republic; you just need willing accomplices.
"Everyone knows what he did." I don't. Please, tell me. I care. I like facts, data, evidence standards, and rule of law.
Yes, we care. The Democrats MUST do their Constitutional duty, regardless of what the Senate does and regardless of what the public thinks.
Mueller & Congress have investigated thoroughly. Trump directed obstruction would likely keep the enforcement of subpoenas tied up in courts until long after the 2020 election. Congressional recourse is impeachment for serial criminality, abuse of power & obstruction.
Time for Republicans to stand up to the corruption or be called out for Trumpublican complicity.
“By turning into apologists and advocates for a Russian dictator” Max Boot wrote “the Republican Party has become all that it once despised.”
Does anyone care about honesty? I do!
I'm so tired of Trump's lying and the convoluted waffling, spinning, and time- and tax$-wasting in the Senate. I'm sick of the rampant corruption happening right in front of us, and of those who think it's no big deal. It's the gas-lighting of a nation!
This is our country, our democracy! Don't trifle with my freedom.
We know what trump did was wrong and should never have been done by any president. Impeachment is the answer. He will not be able to pardon any of his cronies or even be pardoned himself by the next president. Complicit Republican senators know this and that’s why they are so resistant to his impeachment. They face prison for their complicity and part in the schemes.
Seems to be the nature of everyday punditry to develop tunnel vision in a vain attempt to come up with pertinent analysis regarding how we the citizens feels about impeachment. Overlooked in this daily urgency of view is the plausible reality that as a nation we have never been so bombarded with an unconscionable president that we have all to do just to keep going with our daily lives let alone become activists within the seeming futility. Perhaps you pundits have overlooked the very possible reality that we are not giving widespread feedback about the impeachment because we are completely worn out with worry and sick of DJT's daily visage on tv and in the media. Could be a total wipeout of all things trump in 20', or not. Everyday he seems to alienate another huge block of voters against him with his enraged, unthought out, orders and illegal actions. He's not smart or politic enough to consider who he's alienating as long as he has his weekly fits of MAGAt adoration which could very well be leading him down a primrose path of self deception about how much the country and the world grows each day in their hatred of him.
In the days before the 2016 election, Donald Trump asserted, it appears with knowledge, that election was rigged; one of his few truthful statements. We know from his history in business and his thousands of law suits that his vision of winning typically includes cheating for advantage.
His efforts in the Ukraine affair show he is intent on continuing to cheat and win in 2020 which is essentially what Michael Tomasky said.
So why do voters not care?
It has not been explained properly.
He complains that the CIA whistle blower is a traitor and spy and suggests that this person should be hung from nearest old oak tree like we used to do.
In my view, we're in the midst of a high-stakes poker game and Trump has been caught cheating.
Speaking of historic American reactions to such acts, I'd recommend folks revisit the fate of those caught cheating in poker games by persons like Doc Holiday.
But Republicans, who have been cheating on elections through paring of voter rolls, closing of precincts, grotesque gerrymandering and, as in that contested NC congressional election, criminal violations that forced a 'do-over', seem to think cheating is their birth right.
I think they are really doing their best to kill free and fair elections by eroding trust in those elections.
Impeachment is nothing but a public firing of an incompetent. It is not like Trump himself has an aversion to the phrase: You're fired!
Seems a lot less problematic than the Doc Holiday's solution.
The only thing that matters is the 2020 election. It's the only way to get rid of Trump and, sadly, the Republican party. It is absolutely sickening to see how badly they have treated the witnesses of the process just because they have no defense. We need a new party called Constitutionalists. A party that truly supports and ubderstands the constitution.
Yes. I am a voter. And I care about the articles of impeachment.
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It’s not that voters don’t care, it’s that many of them see this impeachment effort for exactly what it is: a last ditch, desperate attempt to destroy the Trump presidency, all previous efforts having failed miserably. This effort will fail too and then where will we be? This will not go away even if and when Trump does.
Yeah, throw the hot potato--the whole poisoned mess-- to McConnell--shame him and Senate GOP for "abasing themselves with a blanket exoneration of Mr. Trump."
Well put.
That will be a GOP decision to live in infamy. The younger generations of voters will pay heed and learn from it. Even if many of the older GOP voters just rationalize anything the GOP may do.
Trump said he would use foreign help in the election.
Here's my question.
It's 1 thing if a foreign country, say Russia, hacks computers, and uses social media fraud to undermine our elections and influence voters with falsity.
But suppose we get a future Trump type swamp creature swimming up from the depths, to take power. And the Democrats find out from another country, something bad about him that was not already known, that would likely influence US voters to vote against him?
Shouldn't they use it? To save America?
Reading back through the Mueller report and between that and the report of the Intelligence committee I counted 17 potential articles. They should all be filed. Then, congress should review Trump's actions in view of the emoluments clause and file separate articles on those. Then, in addition, articles should be filed relating to the administration's blatant attempts to subvert Congress's attempts to carry out their Constitutional responsibilities and to the intimidation of witnesses and the subornation of perjury.
This man and his administration are rotten to their very core. The American people need to see these people for everything they are.
Trump's corruption is a feature, not a bug to his voters. After the Senate acquits him, his base, favored by the Electoral College, will turn out in droves to vote for his reelection and show the deep state that their coup has failed. As long as the economy remains strong, Trump will be reelected in an Electoral College landslide, and the Dems may even lose the House.
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This about the Constitution, the presidency and the rule of law. It's not about entertaining the masses or humoring partisans on any side. It's a legal process in defense of the core of American democracy: the separation of power among the 3 co-equal branches of government and accountability of public trust.
The one thing it isn't is a popularity contest, which Trump and his enablers think they can win if they make it a circus replete with scary clowns and prancing pachyderms.
No, most Americans -- definitely those in red states -- won't comprehend what impeachment is about beyond what Trump's Ministry of Disinformation and Alternative Facts wants them to believe: an all-out attack by radical secularists (per AG Barr's burning bush moment) against the white god's own chosen one.
In this instance it's not enough for Trump's acolytes to condemn the sin and embrace the sinner: Trump demands they exult the sin and hail the sinner. Forever Trumpers have nothing, so they have nothing to lose.
If the judicial process of impeachment cites one or 100 high crimes and misdemeanors in the Constitutional indictment of Trump based on credible evidence, reducing it to compelling soundbites to enthrall or exasperate either side is folly.
Dumbing down the Constitution and the democracy it enshrines is how we got Trump in the first place.
The dumbing of America has gone far enough.
The man, Trump, tried to sell us out to the Russians, he lied, he is corrupt. And he needs to be impeached, no matter what.
And remember every Republican legislator thinks this is perfectly fine. Put that in the back of every mind walking into a voting booth in November, 2020.
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"I will bet you dollars to doughnuts..." doughnuts are now worth more than dollars.
Everyone has made up their mind. Pass as many articles as possible and as quickly as possible then dump it on the Senate. The more obstacles the Senate must confront and argue the better. Let the Senate Republicans get their hands bloody for once. The dems will have accomplished their constitutional duty and may quickly unify to focus on 2020.
Bill Barr just publicly threatened “communities” and “protestors” to start “respecting” law enforcement more or there might be repercussions. Like, using law enforcement to suppress the right to assembly or retaliate against those who complain about police brutality.
Nunes has been back-channeling Intelligence Committee stuff to trump, via Rudi Giuliani and for Giuliani.
Pompeo is traveling, speaking at meetings and quoting scripture; like all good politicians do.
Giuliani is currently soliciting assistance from foreign nationals to aid mr. trump’s 2020 election. Giuliani can’t be impeached! And trump doesn’t know why or what Giuliani is doing, globetrotting.
And the House Republicans are warming up to Russia and Putin.
Without impeachment, your gutted federal government will be used against you and Marshall authority will be exacted if you protest.
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I am alive to the arguments that the impeachment process should be quick and simple, with a limited number of Articles--but I suspect that the argument is based on the idea that the American people are stupid and have the attention spans of gnats.
If that is entirely true, then we're all up the creek anyway.
I still think there is no need to rush this process--especially with the holiday season coming, during which people are certainly going to be distracted by other events and even more prone than usual to grandstanding propaganda tactics that will surely be in the forefront of Republican gameplay.
There is no reason not to slow walk this, proceeding slowly and deliberately, making sure every 'i' is dotted and 't' is crossed, and let this play out for some time after the holidays, both for the reason that there may well be further revelations coming--none of which will make Trump look any better--and for the reason that the longer this remains in the public consciousness, the more the accumulation will weigh on Trump, which not only also continues to erode how at least more moderate non-cultists perceive his administration but might also drive him into "unforced errors", by Twitter, TV, or behavior.
And, since we know Senate Republicans would sooner have their toenails yanked out than vote to remove from office, it's useful if they have to twist slowly in the wind and later justify their votes. That can't possibly be good for THEIR re-election chances.
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I care. if he does not get impeached and removed from office, we have no democracy.
What saddens me about your column and some of the reaction to it is that it presents us as a frighteningly ignorant and poorly educated public. It seems to suggest that we approach education differently if we are to save the republic from the ignorance of the tens of millions of citizens you consider unprepared or unwilling to reason from the evidence that the president is a criminal. Sadly, I fear too many of them think politicians are criminals by nature — and that reflects bad judgment and poor perceptual skills. Both of these serious problems are addressed by education when it is undertaken from childhood as a life long discovery adventure rather than suffering through school. What I would like to focus on are the circumstances under which the Republicans become frightened of being remembered as criminally negligent because of their support for a criminal president?
As a conservative went so bold to put on his T-shirt... "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat". In saying that, they are doing exactly that... they are selling our nation down the river to the Russians and the super wealthy...
What ever happened to those Tea Partiers with their torch and pitch forks all up in arms about the constitution...
Russian Operative Said ‘We Made America Great’ After Trump’s Win [Bloomberg]
Kremlin-directed operatives opened champagne when Donald Trump won the presidency in 2016, according to a communication disclosed in a new Senate Intelligence Committee report outlining Russia’s sweeping social media efforts to help him win. “We uncorked a tiny bottle of champagne ... took one gulp each and looked into each other’s eyes .... We uttered almost in unison: ‘We made America great,’” one operative at the St. Petersburg-based Internet Research Agency said in the message obtained by the Republican-led committee.
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Yes! Yes! Yes! We care about impeachment and thank you for asking. Out here in Colorado we are anxious to dump trump and our disappearing senator Cory Gardner who lacks the courage to face his constituents when he returns to Colorado.
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The big takeaway from this whole business to date is who cares about the Constitution? Who cares about what's right and what's wrong? Who cares about facts? All that matters is what the base thinks. Right or wrong.
Republicans and right wing citizens don’t care. They are for a full throated dictatorship as long as the regime supports their ethnicity and religious values.
The rest of the country has to vote. Otherwise they will lose their democracy just like the Russians, Turks and Hungarians.
This is about the Constitution, the presidency and the rule of law. It's not about entertaining the masses or humoring partisans on any side. It's a legal process in defense of the core of American democracy: the separation of power among the 3 co-equal branches of government and accountability of public trust.
The one thing it isn't is a popularity contest, which Trump and his enablers think they can win if they make it a circus replete with scary clowns and prancing pachyderms.
No, most Americans -- definitely those in red states -- won't comprehend what impeachment is about beyond what Trump's Ministry of Disinformation and Alternative Facts wants them to believe: an all-out attack by radical secularists (per AG Barr's burning bush moment) against god's own chosen one.
In this instance it's not enough for Trump's acolytes to condemn the sin and embrace the sinner: Trump demands they exult the sin and hail the sinner. Forever Trumpers have nothing, so they have nothing to lose.
If the judicial process of impeachment cites one or 100 high crimes and misdemeanors in the Constitutional indictment of Trump based on credible evidence, reducing it to compelling soundbites to enthrall or exasperate either side is folly.
Dumbing down the Constitution and the democracy it enshrines is how we got Trump in the first place.
The dumbing of America has gone far enough.
Re additional violations. An on-line CNBC article today discusses the Trump family's filing for over 1000 trademarks since the 1980s. 200 have been filed since Trump announced his candidacy in 2015. Many were filed by Ivanka in China including trademark protections for "toys, alcoholic beverages, and foods," and -- voting machines. Don't the Trumps' applications raise ethical concerns? Indeed, the CNBC article notes that the federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. will "hear oral arguments" on Monday in relation to one of two lawsuits that argues that Trump "has violated the Constitution's [Foreign] emoluments clause" in that an application for a trademark constitutes a conflict of interest between Trump's role as president and his role as a business man.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/04/trump-accelerated-trademark-requests-while-running-for-president.html?&qsearchterm=trademarks
Democrats' cowardice blocks the only exact, comprehensive, and meaningful article of impeachment that would grab public attention and establish a clear case against Donald John Trump. That article is treason: Treason against the Constitution of The United States of America. The list of acts demonstrating treason include sedition--incitement of resistance and insurrection against lawful authority--and attempts by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance.
Unless there can be a substantially solid case for bringing articles of impeachment against Trump, all these proceedings seem most politically motivated. Certainly there is the perception of some kind of wrongdoing. There is more than a perception of obstruction of justice when the President orders some members of his administration not to cooperate with the investigation. But the "smoking gun" in Trump's hand (in his discussions with the Ukrainians) just isn't there. I certainly wish it was but it's not. I think Trump is a disgrace, but the anger and vitriol from both sides of the aisle is only serving to waste the people's time and money. By the way, we should be asking who is paying for all this. Answer: the taxpayers who else ?
I definitively care about the articles of impeachment, and why they are a vital part of our constitution:
to be able to remove a president from office who is doing harm to the people; to democracy; to government institutions; to the free press; to our Earth environment; is a demoralizing and terrible example; or is guilty of crimes most people go to jail for. All of these are reasons to impeach.
Our experience of a couple of weeks ago, is an example of the strain many of us feel. While driving off Interstate, across the country, we broke down in Kansas farm country. A farmer, the actual owner of the lands surrounding us pulled up behind us , and quickly set off to get steel brackets to fix a split air hose. Together he and my husband had our vehicle all set to go in about half an hour. This man was helpful, sincere, and humorous. He turned to us and said "I sure hope you folks are Trumpers". We said no we weren't, and a pall enveloped us.
I struggled to find common cause with our good samaritan. Decency was a common cause. The global billionaire abduction of the economy (etc) and democracy was a common cause. Having to work so hard at age 67 was a common cause.
We parted with a group hug. i have to say I had tears in my eyes.
The general public cares little about this - what was the top, screaming, all day story on CNN & MSNBC rated a 25 second mention 14 minutes into my local news. Hate Trump all you want but this is a tempest in a teapot, a mountain out of a molehill, whatever phrase you prefer. Of course get it over quickly - it is a failure that has distracted from the democratic candidates and their various messages. And you've enabled the Senate GOP to have a reason to bring Hunter Biden and perhaps other uncomfortable witnesses in front of the American people.
You should have listened to Nancy.
"The Democrats shouldn’t draw out the process any longer than necessary."
Unless, that is, they actually want to actually remove Trump from office for the benefit of America, its national security and its future as a democratic republic.
As long as the objective is to go through the motions and postures of impeachment, in order to use it as a campaign issue (we "tried"), then it does not matter what facts are uncovered and firmly established, it does not matter whether any Republican senators (or any Republican voters in states represented by Republican senators) are persuaded by such facts, and it does not matter whether the final articles of impeachment are solid and comprehensive instead of rushed, sloppy and incomplete. It doesn’t even matter whether the manifold hypocrisy and lies of Congressional Republicans about this impeachment are ever systematically rebutted.
If the main goal is to protect the jobs of existing Democratic incumbents in Congress, then the best outcome is insuring that Trump remains in office wrecking America, so that Democrats in Washington don't have to seriously consider how they might even begin to clean up the horrific mess left by Trump-Republicans' grotesque misrule and by the Democrats' own endless tokenism, symbolism and cowardice in response.
Due to his ignorance and lack of self control, he'll probably commit another three impeachable offenses by Christmas. Democrats should move ahead right now with the two most blatant offenses: bribery and obstruction of justice. If the senate acquits, then bring him up again for the new offenses he's sure to commit. Maybe by then the self-centered public will turn on him once the economy heads downward and the Republican Party will have no choice but to abandon him (and of course pretend like they never supported him in the first place).
"The Democrats shouldn’t draw out the process any longer than necessary."
I believe even if Democrats go to the court and get testimonies of Mr. Trump's inner-circle - including Mr. Bolton and Pompeo - and they admit everything, the Republicans will still stick to the same arguments we heard today. They are shameless and have no notion of what is meant to be upright.
Do voters even care? The answer is "yes". Absolutely. We are fighting for the soul of our country and the house-cleaning needs to start in the WH. Democrats, keep it coming!
I wholeheartedly disagree. The process needs to be "drawn out" so it can't be easily dismissed as a cheap political witch hunt, the favored term Republicans like to use to characterize it. This is about getting it right for posterity so it is known far beyond a shadow of a doubt that impeachable offenses occurred which compelled congress to act responsibly as stewards of our democracy. Even though Republicans, to their collective peril, will stand united with Trump and at the expense of their oaths and our constitution, the Democratic leadership needs to get this right or they'll look every bit as disingenuous as their counterparts.
It's obvious that if the tables were turned and the same political extortion of a foreign government had been committer by a Democratic president, Republicans if they controlled the House would have already impeached, and would never let this go. Never.
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The absolute truth! A great perspective
I think more is better, because one of them will ring clear with each person:
1) Election campaign law violations including paying off Stormy Daniels.
2) Mueller inquiry into Russian fraud and Trump obstruction, including Comey firing
3) Ukraine bribery, holding back military aid for Biden/Burisma investigation, and Trump obstruction
4) Fraud with using veterans fundraising for campaign use.
And maybe a couple more. Ukraine is the worst but they are all proven and clear. The totality of all the events brings the situation into clearer focus.
I have a certain amount (very little actually) of sympathy for Republicans with teenagers...."Son, the neighbor told me they saw you sneak out your window last night. What do you have to say for yourself?"....."First, I don't recall what I did last night. Second, if I did it's one less than what you did when you were a teenager per mom. Third, there was no full moon last night or tonight. Go stand at the neighbor's window and I'll climb out while you watch. No way you can tell who it is...just sayin."
How can anyone supporting Trump have a comeback for the above? It's not mentioned often but our youth are picking up some of the modeling done by our president and his entranced followers. Do Trump supporters want their children to repeat the stance of supporting lies and looking the other way when Trump strays from his oath of office?
So yes, the impeachment process is very important to me. The president needs to be held accountable. Not all transgressions warrant impeachment. Withholding military aid from an ally to get them to knuckle under and investigate a political rival surely meets the impeachment standard. "Son. Tell me it's not true. The money I gave you to give to the Red Cross. I hear you demanded a picture of you giving the money be submitted to the local paper or you would keep the money?"
As for the length of the trial. Throw out the calendar. It should take as long as it takes. And if Trump has a tape of him saying "no quid pro quo"- I'm all ears.
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Plenty of Americans care about and think that Trump should be held accountable for his inappropriate and irresponsible behavior. The Republican Senators and Congressional Representatives better WAKE UP and emerge from the Bubble you have been living in. It is important that all political leaders take the current impeachment proceedings seriously. If they don't people will be in the streets.
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Recent elections prove voters are listening with even deep restate wins for the democrats. Trump will lose next November and he may be tossed out even sooner.
To say that the Voters don't care about the Impeachment Inquiry could not possibly be close to the truth. The Majority of Voting Americans did not Vote for Trump and would like to see him removed from office. Many eligible Voters did not Vote for Clinton yet would still want to see Trump removed. There are many more Americans who never Vote...both young and old...who would like to see Trump removed from office. I would argue there are far far more Americans who are very interested in the Hearings and the testimonies of so many true American Patriots.....and understand that Trump is the worst President in American History . The fact that Democrats have won back the House and most of the recent elections proves my point. We need to take a cue from the recent elections in Hong Kong where there was a 70% Voter turnout ...Vote Blue No Matter Who...get out and Vote !!!
One “quick” article of impeachment versus a “slow” process for a more comprehensive set of indictments?
Isn’t that a false dilemma?
It shouldn’t take more than a day or two of hearings to present the public with the significance of the Emoluments Clause and the many ways this president* has flouted it. The Emoluments Clause requires no proof of “quid pro quo”: only that the president accepted payments from foreigners and foreign governments through his international real estate holdings.
Another day (or two) of testimony could be devoted to outlining the evidence we have for various other forms of corruption (including money laundering) and the obstructions erected by trimp against obtaining specific records and witnesses that could clarify the president’s* guilt or *innocence*.
And... speaking of “obstruction”.
Finally two days of testimony by legal and constitutional scholars regarding the 1) the obstruction of justice evidence, and 2) the collusion with Russia as laid out in the Mueller Report.
That wouldn’t take very long. There would still be time enough for the GOP Senate to shamefully refuse to convict before the primary season.
Failure to deliver a full set of indictments against this president* would be an abject abdication of duty by the House of Representatives which would be another barrage of nails in the coffin of the idea of the rule of law and, therefore, the legitimacy of our US government and institutions
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At one time I thought Democrats should “wait until all the evidence was in” before impeaching. But that was before I realized Trump would continue to commit crimes while in office-a horror I frankly never imagined. So he does have to be held to account, sooner rather than later. It will be many many years before all the evidence is in. We need to protect our country, our Constitution, and the legitimacy of the 2020 election NOW.
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Don't mix an Impeachment Vote with Christmas! Just as waiting until Summer is too long, rushing to get 2 or 3 articles wrapped up for Christmas is also bad timing. Pursuing 6 or 7 articles representing an array of the attacks by Trump on the Constitution and clearly revealing how completely unprepared and unfit for office is this POTUS is critical now and for posterity. Impeaching and an attempt at conviction in the Senate is best done AFTER the upcoming holidays as it may capture more of the publics attention and presents an Impeachment timetable showing more deliberation and contemplation. This is of course planning, timing, and messaging which is a weakness for Liberals. The DNC and Democratic Leaders STILL are not telling the public often and repeatedly enough that Trump refused to cooperate with the process by keeping facts and information hidden AND the many bills passed by the House that wait in the Senate. Yesterday's appearance by the four Professors is an example of weak DNC messaging. The fourth Professor is only known today as being against Impeachment. That for those who watched Jonathan Turley's presentation, his message simply begs the question, "Why don't we know enough?". The answer of course, is that the lack of participation and clear obstruction by Trump in denying the House his and others testimony.
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As with most hysterics suffering from TDS, the author is horrified that Trump is so straightforward in doing what he was elected to do, which includes spurring investigations of the Bidens’ obvious pay to play schemes.
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Mr. Tomasky:
Impeachment might be a distant memory in the minds of most Americans by November 2020. But as today’s testimony by legal scholars shows, these proceedings will be remembered for generations.
Doing what is right is never wrong. As your essay points out, Donald Trump’s presidency began with emoluments clause violations as its infant formula. The abuses of presidential power have escalated from there. Americans of the future should know how uniquely loathsome and lawless this president truly is.
An electoral college fluke, his inheritance of a growing economy, a vast propaganda machine, a Republican party cowed by the fervent support of a base Trump has worked into a demagogic frenzy, and Trump’s ceaseless barrage of improprieties have become mind-numbing for the majority of Americans. This resignation by a public in shock is not an excuse for congress to shirk their duty as witnesses to Trump’s unprecedented malfeasance.
To put the deeds of this would-be tyrant in the historical record is a duty. Otherwise, we will let the United States slide into the grip of strongmen who impose their will on the majority through power and wile. We cannot let the nation repeat this horrible mistake.
The full extent of Donald Trump’s violations of our constitution must be enumerated, regardless of the political costs today. That will take courage. I hope our elected officials find it.
6
The answer is NO! The voters view it as a partisan action because the Democrats cannot get over losing the election-nothing more. If it comes to a vote in the house 35 Democratic representatives are going to be put in the position of voting no or losing their seats. No Republican representative will vote for it for the same reason. Trump will be found not guilty in a 14 day trial in the Senate with Democratic senators concerned about their vote!
1
One of the criticisms the GOP raises to this process is that it already "has been rushed." But they want it both ways: if drawn out, they'd claim it was all theatrics. As for the "rushed" charge: if I were caught red-handed in a crime a 6-month long investigation should not be considered "rushed."
2
I'm Canadian and have no dog in this fight, but am nevertheless appalled and riveted by this unfolding tragedy in the U.S. The long overdue impeachment of Donald Trump is not akin to binge watching Game of Thrones, where some viewers might get bored by the drama of it all. It is about upholding your Constitution and ensuring that no one is above the law. Yes, health care and prescription drug prices are top of mind for most Americans; but the very survival of your democracy is at stake. Pay attention.
7
In this impeachment process who cares what the voters care about?
What the Senate, Electoral College, Cabinet and Supreme Court of the United States don't you accept nor understand that America is not and never was meant to be 'our democracy'?
Voters have no vote in any impeachment in the House of Representatives nor any trial on impeachment in the Senate..
America is and always been a very peculiar kind of republic. A divided limited different power constitutional republic of united states.
In our republic the people wield the nominal ultimate sovereign power over their elected and selected hired help whom they have given representative defined duties and powers.
2
Thank you for this article.
We need to defeat Trump and Republican senators and members of congress at the BALLOT BOX.
The Democrats should be talking about :
-lowering drug prices
-protecting those with pre-existing conditions
-raising the minimum wage .......
while they register voters
DON'T WHINE - ORGANIZE !
2
I would never dispute the will of the voters, even if Trump was not my vote in 2016. But, he does and has operated as if he is above the law. Trump's supporters admire this, as many question why they should pay taxes since Trump evades? Laws, rules, and regulations seem to be like rubberbands that Trump, Giuliani, et al., flick away. I am not an elite because I believe in and follow the rule of law. I am an American who cares about your rights and mine. Trump's obituary will read that he was the third impeached president in US history. This, I dare say, is his only earned accomplishment.
7
Regardless of political consequences,we must protect and defend our constitution against this President. It is clear that Trump believes he is above the supreme law of our land.
We must impeach him to send a message to him and all future presidents that we the people may disagree on issues but we do not disagree about our constitution being more important than any issue,any party, and any president
3
Democrats can imagine controlling next government by not doing anything positive for general public but dominating major media and generating lots of negative campaigns against the head of the executive branch. Isn’t that corruption? We have to ask legal scholars about it more than anything.
3
Before the democrats vote to impeach they better have direct evidence that Trump actually committed a crime - So far, there is absolutely no direct evidence, just second hand presumptions - If they vote to impeach without hard evidence the republicans have a good chance of winning the house
4
For a period in 2009, Obama was able to unite the country and drive the political agenda. He had a massive mandate to clean up Wall St and end the Wars. The Democrats have the same opportunity in 2020.
Impeachment does not move towards a mandate, but will do the opposite. With the next step bieng the Senate - the Republican Majority can start calling witnesses and driving the narrative. A 50-50 split means Trump won.
In 2008, the Democrats owned Washington by promising ending Wall St shenanigans and ending the Wars. In 2020, Goldman Sachs is still Goldman Sachs, and you have 2 billionaire Wall St guys running. The Middle Eastern wars keep coming, so maybe impeachment is the way to go.
"By next November, so much will have happened that impeachment will be a distant memory, as difficult to retrieve from the memory well for most people as what movie won the last Best Picture Oscar."
Same way nobody remembers what happened to Nixon? Mr. Tomasky is even more deluded than Trump supporters if he thinks the impeachment - and what Trump did to deserve it - won't be very much on people's minds.
5
I care. Hold Trump accountable, to the fullest extent possible, or you lose my vote. It's that simple. Pelosi already lost my vote (forever) for failing to bring articles of impeachment following the Mueller report.
4
The views of each camp are solidified and will not change. The independents however, are being swayed. But not in the direction the Democrats had intended. "Let the voter decide" is their mantra. The hearings have become boorish political theatre with the Dems holding the short end of the stick. So be it.
6
I read a lot of the comments before I read the article. It's clear that many people read the title but not the actual text before writing their comments.
The article is actually quite thought-provoking and doesn't argue that Trump should be given a pass. I also agree with the closing sentence that AG Barr is a frightening prospect during the next eleven months.
6
If the senate won't impeach, that's on them for all of history. The GOP is defining itself. No voter is ever going to switch to supporting Trump because he's acquitted.
But if the house dosn't impeach then a harmful pattern is set for the future. Cynicism and hostility will increase among Americans.
12
Countries like the United States where the citizens are divided and not like minded never truly settle their differences and cooperate for the greater good.
The impeachment hearings are a case in point. The two parties can barely speak to each other.
There are countries that are homogenous in their values and generally move in the same direction.
I’m afraid America was cursed from its inception to have major disagreements, starting with slavery.
8
Sure, and nothing more divisive than allowing France to retake its colonies in SE Asia after WWII. We now call it the Vietnam War.
Not all Americans understand how the law was broken. This is not about Hillary losing. This is not because of a dislike of Trump. This is because the president tried to used money designated by Congress for the Ukraine for his own political purposes. It was a moment of using the governments money to say to the Ukraine investigate my opponent and I’ll let you have the money Congress said you should have. He was asking a foreign power to insert themselves into our political system for his political gain. No -all presidents and politicians do this. His sense that he is able to call all the shots within the government erodes the constitutional separations of power.
He released the money only when the whistleblower came forward. He has allowed none of his staff to testify.
The lack of understanding of this issue is because of inaccurate “cult like “ information sources, poor civics and American history education, and lack of understanding how to identify sketchy internet news sources .
11
Without some recent footage showing the intense fighting going on in Ukraine holding back Russian forces, and its proximity to other countries that used to be part of the Soviet Block, people may not grasp what this is all about. Europe is of great importance to us, after having sent thousands of men to join in their battles. But due to the relatively small size of most of their countries, they don't have the military capacity or the economic wealth that we have. If we value this particularly important geopolitical alliance, then we need to unwaveringly show it. Of course a similar tragedy is happening in the Americas,
but border patrol agents with little understanding of the laws regarding people seeking asylum are just told to round them up and confine them. OTOH, It's not that difficult to feed these people and give them a decent place to clean up, and provide clean clothes. Some will eventually have to return, but others have already been threatened at gunpoint, and I'm sure there are plenty of young lawyers that be assigned to review their claims.
They're our neighbors, and frankly the more we abuse them, the memories of excessive cruelty will haunt our relations with them and others. The U.S. government "with all their money" sticks a gun in your face instead of giving you some food and a warm blanket. In the end, I would say that We need the World more than the World needs Us, and we'd better hold on to our friends and make new ones as well.
2
Why should they care? The Democrats have made this a mockery of our politics all because they don't like Trump.
They still feel Mrs. Clinton should have won and are doing everything they can to inhibit this administration.
Impeachment has become a political tool for elections now.
10
'Mrs' Clinton did win the popular vote for President by 3 mln votes. Unfortunately America continues to decide its leaders using the absurd electoral college system. Democracy might emerge one day if Americans consign that manifestly antidemocratic mechanism to the dustbin of history. But you dont appear to have the nous to do that.
5
@Mike
If you really believe the nation as a whole would be better if the citizens of 4 or 5 urban areas decided elections for the huge diversity of people across 50 States from here on out, that is your right.
My thinking is that our Founders knew human nature ... and that is why they set up the system we have. Of course, if everyone agrees, the Constitution can always be changed.
4
If the electoral college benefited Democrats, I doubt you'd be singing the same tune.
I personally don't care who it benefits, everyone's vote should count equally, it shouldn't matter where you live.
Everybody knows what Trump did. He upset the libs, and now they are out to get him with this phony impeachment thing. What he did was like what Joe Biden did, leaning on a foreign government.
Neither a short nor a long process is going to make a difference. People can buy the Trump case or the antitrump case or ignore the issue and want both sides to stop and instead govern.
The impeachment is a waste of time because the Senate will not convict. Our thinking classes do not want to admit this, because they want to believe that the Constitution means something. But to most people it doesnt.
Everybody does not know that Trump did what Mr. Tomasky thinks he did, or see it the way Mr. Tomasky sees it. And Mr. Tomasky knows this; some of his discussion is the standard objective discussion of probable and possible results and the chances of success of various strategies, similar to what sports buffs get.
The problem is that the country has developed a threefold personality, split between Trumpsters, antitrumpsters, and those who want the fighting to slow down and refuse to blame one side more than the other. This third group does not want unpleasant truths discovered or anyone punished for things that went wrong (Vietnam, Iraq, the mortgage meltdown, growing income inequality) because that would prevent people from working together. This avoidance of reality and responsibility explains how our current situation developed.
2
Fiona Hill testified last week that she did not agree with Trump policy with respect to Ukraine. Schiff takes her evidence as proof of an impeachable offense by Trump, since, obviously, an expert should be calling the shots on foreign policy rather than the president.
6
How is she calling the shots?
About 40% of eligible voters vote in presidential elections and 20% in local elections. I say this just to give perspective to the idea that the entire country is glued to their televisions. I’m sorry to say, and this may be for some difficult to believe, they are not.
5
The question is how did Trump not only get the nomination but also was elected. The answer is that the Democrats did not face reality and face the fact that Hillary could not win. She was qualified but not electable. They are faced with the same predicament now - too many candidates, progressives that haven't got a chance. To defeat Trump they have to unite and nominate a charismatic realist.
3
You seem to have forgotten that Hillary did win the popular vote by over 3 million. Even so, this is not about the election. This is about a president abusing power for personal gain, not for the interests of our country.
Clinton lied about an affair and was impeached. He was not convicted, but not everyone who was indicted is convicted. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been indicted. Oversight is the constitutional responsibility of the House of Representatives. Like it or not, they are following a constitutional process.
3
Everyone knows what he did. But the process should also make it very clear to those same voters and citizens why it is so bad - that the integrity of the system and the office are at stake if it goes unpunished by the removal of the offender from the presidency.
5
There is not one uniform group of "the voters". For the purpose of the question in your title, there are those who care about the rule of law as it applies here, and those who have other priorities. The polls are pretty steady about Trump (more think he's in the wrong, than don't) from which it's easy to guess that yes, many voters do care. My only certain fact is I do, and I vote.
6
Patterns of behavior are important.
The public knows that. Juries know that.
6
The fact is, that most Americans don't expect our politicians to operate in a totally straightforward manner. That's not surprising, because they never have - even back in the era when the "Founding Fathers" were still alive.
You can't endlessly carry on about Trump, and then, in the same breath, claim that Hunter Biden's $50,000 a month board job was an isolated event, that had nothing to do with Joe Biden's position of influence.
Adam Schiff and his pals. aren't helping the Democratic Party.
9
I agree with the author: there's something to say about keeping the narrative clean and not letting it drag on thru the courts too long. The Ukraine story is a pretty clearcut case of bribery, extortion, and Trump using the power of the Presidency to benefit himself. People will understand that intuitively. I worry about diminishing marginal returns from waiting to add on every article of impeachment, especially if the charges are only something a constitutional law professor could understand.
4
There is this - the longer this goes on, the more that gets dragged into the light. The rot is deep, not only within Trump, but the entire GOP. The cure is sunlight. Keep shining on.
6
Yes, but. They can't convict. They don't even imagine this working to remove Trump.
It is a campaign event. It is done to keep it in the news, to make Trump's wrongdoing the only subject anyone thinks about for as long as possible, all the way to next November if possible.
They don't want it short. They want it forever, or at least until the next election.
3
Translation - the primaries are coming up, and the last thing the Democrats want is their candidates who are senators stuck in Washington where they can't campaign.
2
Knowing what someone "did" and understanding the meaning and significance of it are two very different things.
"See spot run" doesn't tell us why Spot ran, where he ran from, to where he ran, anything about the context, and why him running matters; why it is something that needs to be understood.
Yes, some actions of Trump are known, but what not enough of the public understands, yet, is the meaning and significance of what he did. Not enough of them understand why they should care about what he did. Communicating that to the public is the main task that people who do understand why what Trump did is so wrong and inappropriate need to accomplish.
Saying, "get on with it already," doesn't help the public--both present and future citizens who will contend with the implications of what happens in this situation.
8
The impact of allowing trump to trample our Constitution and get away with it goes far beyond left, right or center.His sleazy mob like tactics in attempting to bribe a vulnerable ally struggling in a war with Russia is beyond intolerable.Left unpunished, it opens the door for future presidents to do likewise -and worse. It’s a slippery slope from there- just what Putin is hoping for. We are in a terrible situation because political ambition and tribalism are enabling some elected officials to turn a blind eye, not only to trump’s Ukraine travesty, but also to the awful way trump has diminished and divided our country, from the cruel treatment of human beings seeking asylum,to his disastrous tariffs, refusal to understand or address climate change, his constant violations of the emoluments clause, not to mention his right hand man and in-house White nationalist, Stephen Miller and Trump’s “good people on both sides” comments after Charlottesville. And then there is the shameful perp walk parade of Trump associates, indicted,serving time or headed that way,all as Trump continues to alienate our staunchest allies and embarrass us on the world stage. With every day that he is in office, his horrifying ignorance,lack of honesty and outsize ego are a danger to our country-and our future.There are many reasons he deserves impeachment,but most importantly not holding him accountable leaves open the door for other even worse behaviors by those elected to lead our Nation.
A focused narrow approach is best. Virtually all can agree that Attempted Abuse of Office and Contempt of Congress are provable. Congress should stick with the low hanging fruit and either censure or impeach.
I continue to wonder why there is such a rush to send the
Impeachment to the Senate by Christmas ?
Just as in Wars when soldiers believe the War will be over by Christmas - see the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 and Korea in 1950 - the Democrats seem to think that if we just get the Impeachment articles to the Senate before the Christmas break - everything will work out fine.
If Impeachment is one of the most serious duties of the House then let them do a thorough and convincing presentation. Let them continue to hold hearings through the Christmas break.
Let the Federal Judges rule on their "ignored" subpoenas.
Let them make an airtight case that might convince enough Americans to convince the Senate that is in in their political interest to convict the apparently guilty Trump.
As of now, I would vote to censure, but I would not vote to
convict Trump, after all, he may not have even known what he said to the Ukrainian President evidently violated Federal Law.
What I really would like to know is why the 25th Amendment has not been invoked.
1
25th Amendment is invoked by the President’s Cabinet members.
1
Eh, who knows? On Dec 13 the Supreme Court is going to rule on Trump's appeal for the McGahn stay. Thus Justice Roberts will be making the next decision on how this plays out. If he turns down the appeal, in theory all of the stonewalled subpoenas can be enforced and the political calculus changes dramatically. If he doesn't, it's a clear signal that he's ok with a sham Senate exoneration. If the Democrats can haul in McGahn, Pompeo, Barr, Mulvaney, etc. the pressure to do so will be enormous and that will inevitably extend the final House vote into the new year. Would anyone want to bet against Justice Roberts sending a strong signal that he'd rather not have his name associated with a sham Senate exoneration?
3
Friday the 13th of December could be a very unlucky day for Mr. Trump. Either that or for our Constitution and the republic. A lot rides on the Supremes. Will Republican justices place party above country as their counterparts in the Congress do?
We are having impeachment hearings and a vote. This is not infotainment. I really don’t care if some are bored. I want the rule of law in this country.
18
We , the people have no choice in the matter. The democratic leaders in Congress are overly cautious and in my opinion extremely lazy. They should have made a clear and succinct case for impeachment after the Mueller report. Instead they wrung their hands because Mueller was not a telegenic witness with a "J'accuse moment."
Now they have another case and I am not confident Nadler will run his committee as efficiently as Schiff. Then we have the outlaw GOP Senate.
If there is a way for the House to impeach Trump and not send the articles to the Senate for false deliberation, I am all for it. Let Trump twist in the wind for a year.
3
The purpose of impeachment isn't to just show people what some did. It is meant to hold them accountable for their abuse of power. We can't always assume we know how things will end and give up even trying to effect change because we're scared of obstacles. If we demote impeachment to the role of pure spectacle and strip it of its authority, seriousness, and substance, then we are providing a free pass for anyone to dismantle our democratic institutions and writing our own death sentences.
4
I hope the Americans who believe that Trump shouldn't be impeached realise he has made the USA the laughing stock of the world and that was before what happened at NATO. Our pollies are not much better but we don't pretend to be the world super power. It cannot resume that role while Trump is in charge.
5
Given that Republican lawmakers are solidly behind trump, rather than behind the constitution, it's more or less a given that he will be acquitted by the Senate. However, I can't see trump's behavior (to do with both impeachment and his demeanor on the world stage), or that of his petulant apologists in Congress doing anything other than alienate truly independent voters. This should be enough to reverse trump's 2016 wins in states that trump took in 2016 by wafer thin margins and swing enough states for the Demns
00:05 EST, 12/05
2
The main problem with Trump is that he basically does not know the different between right and wrong, and I doubt if he ever did.
6
If the author is correct in that "everyone knows what Trump did" and that is okay, then what is the point in being American when it stands for nothing?
Judging by this sort of standard, Americans should abandon their country and alleged principles and seek citizenship in China, seeing how China has more manufacturing jobs, money and greater patience and vision than either political party in America.
Yes we care Michael. Trump is not going to become less dangerous as time goes on. America is in a crisis and it's getting worse.
20
I agree with Speaker Pelosi. The issue isn’t whether Trump’s conduct rises to the level of impeachment in the House and/or conviction in the Senate. It’s about survival — the survival of Franklin’s Republic in an increasingly corrupt and, therefore, authoritarian world; corruption and authoritarianism always going hand-in-hand.
”Our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self-correcting document. It requires the constant attention and devotion of all citizens. There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: ‘A republic, if you can keep it.’"
As Pelosi herself remarked, we are now in grave danger of losing it to a hostile foreign power. Not to mention that Trump, its willing if oblivious assassin, is assisted by 35% of the population; millions of Americans who are misled; uneducated; lost. Which is why it’s important to keep the process going for as long as it can be kept going, in hopes of re-connecting and re-educating them; Trump himself being nothing, merely an aid of passing value to Vladimir Putin, his master.
7
I definitely see both sides of it, however its standing on the principle of the rule of law and ethics. We are so far gone in our new digital paradigm shift from other times, that we have become desensitized to our former norms and decorum. I realize that there have been moments in our history that we wish we did not have to endure, but that were in the end, just and verdent. If we had not struggled to overcome Civil Rights, we wouldn't be a multi-cultural society in 2019. If we hadn't fought against oppression, we wouldn't have had a revolution. We need a 21st Century Constitution, if for anything else, to spread the human race to progress, not regress. We have, by this flawed man, a grifter and huckster of fear, a more divided nation through his ideological quest to foment a radical base that fawns over his cult of personality. This long drawn out process, is a cleansing of the swamp that he tried to create, yet, by his actioms so far to undermine our democratic ideals, this 'manchurian candidate' ascended the role with slavic intentions of weakening us and distract us from Russian incursion in the Balkins and Syria, with a new federation uniting former eastern bloc countries, as well as China's incursion into Africa as well as South Asian countries. Its all a setup, and he played the role as a walking-talking Constitutional Crisis waiting to happen even as a candidate. In this crisis, if we don't stand on morality or ethics, the principle of law, then why even have them.
4
It goes without saying that most Americans are lousy citizens who could care less about supporting our Constitution. Their Boomer-made mantras are "Don't worry, be happy" and "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, and It's All Small Stuff." Not exactly the approach to life and the republican they loved of Washington, Hamilton, and Madison, right? As we see over and over, a huge percentage of our fellow citizens are too irresponsible to defend our republic from tyranny anymore. Just as Franklin feared would one day be the case, given the flaws of humanity in general.
6
@Fred White
A brilliant beam of light blazes through the darkness! Lifting spirits. Inspiring the downtrodden.
Thanks, Fred.
Sometimes current events get me down, but then I read a comment like yours and seriously consider suicide.
1
The great and eloquent escaped slave and abolitionist Frederick Douglass once said, "I will unite with anybody to do right and with no one to do wrong."
Impeaching Trump is the right thing to do. Will it make a difference politically? Probably not. Will the average citizen care? If, by average, you mean someone whose idea of cultural enlightenment is watching Love After Lockup or Marriage Boot Camp, and who has sworn off newspapers or anything remotely filtered by professional fact collectors, definitely not. But the people who record and write history are watching and there will be a reckoning. Trump may be re-elected and may well declare himself president for life, to be followed by his children. Or he may choke on a Big Mac. Either way, people will ask some day of his blatant destruction of all ethical norms, why did this happen? What did the people with the power to stop it do? Who knows, by then, it may be a Nuremburg-type trial following a white nationalist war of conquest (presuming they lose). GOP Senators should start now practicing their "I was just following orders" defense.
So, I agree that this process does not need to be dragged out.
6
I'm a voter, I care, but nearly four years of this is getting exhausting. I can't stand to look at Trump, I already know how I will vote and want the people we already voted for to do their jobs and make sure our country is secure from this nightmare. If I have to look at Nunes and his cohorts one more time I may be ill...
10
@Missy,
Pray tell, what does one do when one's upper gastrointestinal tract fluctuates with eminent emesis when either Nunes or Shift comes to the screen?
Right now the only thing people care about is that there are 21 shopping days left till Christmas. After January 1, people will start to pay attention since January is a dull month.
2
If McGahn testifies, he will just repeat the testimony he gave under oath to the Muller investigators. The Justice Department reviewed McGahn’s testimony and determined it did not support prosecution.
4
I think Andrew Yang is correct on this issue. The impeachment proceedings should continue, as we need to uphold the law, but we shouldn't pretend that this will be a slam dunk for Democrats. More important is giving our presidential candidates the airtime to actually articulate their plans and vision for America.
3
No they don't - they see it politically partisan pre determined and a last gasp to prevent Trump running in 2020. The only chance to beat him and long running sour grapes from the disbelief of what happened in 2016.
8
THE POINT AT ISSUE Is whether the US voters are politically literate. The purpose of universal public education was to assure that voters in the US were educated so they could make informed decisions about the vote. In the 18th century, the closest anyone got to the computer age was, perhaps, Jonathan Swift in his fantasies in Gulliver's Travels about, for example, a university that floated in the air. Even the most politically literate among us are buffeted by the unrelenting tsunamis and vortexes of electronic media swirling around, sending propaganda whirling around the globe over fiberoptic networks, rendering everything invisible in plain sight. I think that it is remote to suppose that anytime soon people will demand that information be maintained at a maximum speed that can be processed by the human brain. The quick answer to the question, however, is NO!
1
You are absolutely right Mr. Tomasky. And if the Senate won't convict and remove him on the basis of the facts that have already come out, there's nothing that they'll convict and remove him for. It is beyond time to do the right thing. Even if he is removed from office on Jan. 15, 2020, it may be too late.
5
Two things strike me as relevant or perhaps just curious.
First, there is a middle path regarding the velocity of these proceedings. Given recent court rulings regarding the legitimacy of congressional subpoenas and the sharp if not barbed judicial comments condemning an unrestrained executive, it would likely be worthwhile to extend the fact-finding phase to hear from McGahn, Bolton, Pompeo, et.al. Schiff has stated that his committee is open to further fact-finding. This effort may extend the schedule beyond December 31st. So what?
Second, the GOP would very likely improve their chances in the 2020 general election were Trump removed and Pence became their standard-bearer. I find him objectionable on policy grounds but unless he's also an impeachment target he'd be a considerably safer bet for the GOP than Trump. Sticking with Trump energizes Democrats, a great many independents, and a likely healthy number of disenchanted Republicans. That Republicans self-destructively, steadfastly and without question continue to support Trump prompts many questions.
1
To be clear, the people who cast their ballots for Donald J Trump are, to a large extent, the people we’ve let down with our educational system. Sadly they’re not going to have a better grasp on the laws regarding impeachment.
7
@J Barrymore . Insulting folks who voted for Trump just encourages them and many other to do so again. Empathy and kindness to others is a far more positive way forward, and will help elect a new President in 2020.
7
"Do Voters Even Care About the Articles of Impeachment?"
No.
"I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that when we pore over the exit polls next Nov. 4, impeachment itself will have been a minor factor in people’s voting, let alone the question of how many articles the House passed."
Very much correct.
"The two Americas are dug in. Minds are made up. By next November, so much will have happened that impeachment will be a distant memory, as difficult to retrieve from the memory well for most people as what movie won the last Best Picture Oscar."
True.
6
Dems should keep investigating, and if new material evidence shows up, they can amend their articles of impeachment. Who knows, perhaps we'll get a January surprise. Everything in Trump's world changes hour by hour - new court decisions, new indictments, etc.
2
Sometimes, you have to do the right thing for its own sake. Govern as if the children are paying attention.
30
The best way to gauge the impact of the entire impeachment process would be to interview men and women on the street; and do it everywhere. Big cities; small towns; red states; blue states. My hunch is that most people could not provide reasonable answers to simple questions about the impeachment inquiry. The Democrats may be cooking their own goose. If Trump is re-elected in 2020, there will be a lot of regrets on the left for entering into this foray.
8
@Jones for Humanity: Most would not recognize their own congresscritter on the impeachment panel. I reside in Jerrold Nadler's district.
Mr. Tomasky and the others who plead to do this fast seem to me very apprehensive about the blow back from Trump's troops, in the media, in the Congress and at the polls. It's as if getting it over quickly will make the blow back less intense, maybe less dangerous to Democrats. I don't advocate for something drawn out unnecessarily. Americans will cease to pay attention, some already have, when the limits of their attention span, famously short, are approached. Democrats having starting this inquiry must do it properly and convincingly for those who are willing to listen and think about what's revealed. For the others, barely listening or minds already made up, an earnest and important duty of the House to do what's right shouldn't be diluted for them.
5
Mr. Tomasky, like Mr. Trump, views this business as a clone of The Apprentice or Dancing with the Stars.
"Everyone knows what Trump did." Nonsense, not even Trump knows what Trump did. Mr. Tomasky suggests that the Congress abdicate the oversight role presecribed by the Constitution.
8
Yes, we Democrats care! How the GOP is turning a blind eye to what is staring them right in the face to save their own careers or because they are spellbound by Trump is pretty unbelievable. When their plans eventually collapse, and they eventually will because there are too many young people in the US who will refuse to see their futures demolished by Trump who will want to stay in office until his death were he to survive impeachment and become re-elected. Why would he leave office? He's making too much money, playing too much golf, having the time of his life being angry and blaming everyone else for everything, spending more time with Melania than he ever has (for show) and he is monopolizing TV and the news daily. All of the attention an Emperor with no clothes desires.
The GOP will be historically responsible for destroying democracy and altering America irreparably. They will not be forgotten as each one eventually leaves office with a tragic legacy of their contributions to the downfall of America. They will not be able to blame Trump. They will only need to look in the mirror.
10
Practice makes perfect. 2020 will be the second time Russia will interfere with our elections. They will move the goal posts again to insure Trump wins. Then what?
3
I care and I hope most of the country cares that the president tried to muddy up his political opponent by withholding approved congressional aide to Ukraine If we don’t this republic is over I don’t know what the senate will do but I do know Trump will keep inviting and using foreign interference in our next election (he said he didn’t see anything wrong with it) There has to be oversight or the next election results will be in doubt
11
American voters have been both lulled by political privilege and burned by political results.
Perhaps they are a bit like locals who don't really see much detail until they begin interacting with visitors from outside.
At least, that is how I felt reading Charles Mudede's (Seattle-via-Zimbabwe perspective) article in "The Stranger" November 26, entitled "The US Military Is Under Attack by Russian Forces and Can't Do Anything About It." He presents a forceful argument that Trump's fanning of racism is auxiliary to his role as a Russian asset.
3
No more important than what won last year's Oscar? What does that say about what we've been living through for three years? And all those who are bored with the impeachment hearings are content to have a criminal in office for four more years? Maybe longer? And if less, then perhaps a Civil War?
3
The whole point of this impeachment inquiry is the importance of adherence to the Constitution.
Trump is not a king, and the rule of law must apply to him as well as everyone else.
Trump and his enablers want him to be above the law.
If that happens, America will be a monarchy or a dictatorship.
Recent polls have shown that 43% of Republicans would be fine with a dictatorship.
It’s time to make a stand for America and the rule of law.
15
A lot has already been achieved. Without the whistle blowing Zelensky would likely have been leveraged into bearing false witness. Trump will now have to be more cautious about cheating.
There is no other choice than to follow through with impeachment. Nevertheless the reality of dimishing returns , and it is necessary to ask how best to apply intellectual resources for the best of the country.
IMHO these is an even bigger and more dangerous crime going on, which is that hundreds of billions are being pumped into the economy in the final year or so before the election, despite the economy being already in good condition. (C.f., hundred of billion in repo loans being made available to desperate financial entities).
To be clear, I am not promoting deficit hawkism. The government should be able to use funds to promote new technologies and industries, to direct strategic investment so that the US is not dangerously dependent upon undependable trade partners, to finance practical education for a skilled workforce, etc.
But that is not what is happening. Those hundreds of billions are going simply to extend the current investment bubble past the 2020 election, and none if it is being invested in the US long term future welfare and security.
There is only so much headlines space and political capital - focusing only on the impeachment starves other vital issues of their fair share of attention. And voters want politicians that have that wide perspective.
1
Green Book won Best Picture last year (not that it should have, and not that that fact matters..but...). Facts do matter. What Trump did, and does, matter, and while the number of articles of impeachment may not matter, the official way in which they represent accountability matters, and suggests to me that Democrats should go through with as many articles as there are offenses, and should add more to McConnell's plate of shame.
It is difficult to care about building up charges when one knows that the Republican Senate will acquit no matter what. But sorry - facts are facts, no matter how boring the movie is, and the law matters.
6
As a voter, I want an accountable democracy back, not Trump and buddies. If impeachment works fine, he has to go.
5
President Donald Trump has said he was thinking of "this Russia thing" when he decided to fire FBI Director James Comey, He was upset because Comey would said publicly what he was telling Trump in private, which was that Trump wasn’t under investigation in connection with Russian interference in the 2016b election. Under oath, testified he refuse to say publicly Trump wasn’t under investigation because he would have to make another public announcement correct the first of Trump ever became a suspect, just as he did in the Hillary Clinton email case. Not many presidents would be appeased.
Everyone does NOT know what Trump did because many aren’t following the impeachment process and many others believe the Democrats are out to sabotage a Republican president. I am pro-impeachment, but I believe there are well-intentioned people who genuinely believe the accusations against Trump are inflated, if not made up. Trump is not a smart man and therte is no doubt that he is corrupt. The nature of corruption is that other people are involved. This is obvious to people who follow the impeachment, but not to those who don’t. If the Democrats take their time and get all the witnesses they can in front of the American public, they will find the “smoking gun.”
But, Democrats have to believe and trust tha underneath the cynicism about politics which is the real source of our polarization, there is a yearning for truth and justice. They have to believe that many people who are currently skeptical can be persuaded if the simple facts are presented to them. The problem right now is that the facts are really not as clear and undeniable as the Democrats want them to be.
There is a saying that “haste is the enemy to wisdom.” Democrats should forget the election and keep peeling back the layers of Trump’s corruption. The American people will recognize it when it is clear and undeniable, which is to say un-spinable.
Tacitus, perhaps, put it best: "Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty."
4
"Still, I’m not convinced that the American public will find seven articles of impeachment more persuasive than two."
There are two competing goals at play for Congressional Democrats: one, a matter of principle, is doing their constitutional duty to perform oversight of a renegade president through the impeachment process; the second, a matter of political strategy, is to avoid indulging in behavior that will make the reelection of Donald Trump more likely. The secondary strategic goal has become elevated because all assume that performing the constitutional duty in good faith will not actually result in Trump's removal.
But the two concerns are improperly conflated when the public duty becomes hostage to political strategy. That duty must be performed in a full and credible way, including impeachment articles that target the worst abuses disclosed by the Mueller report.
The facts that Mueller failed to understand the political context surrounding his work, produced a document that defied public comprehension, and was embarrassingly outmaneuvered by Bill Barr do not warrant ignoring the clear instances of serious misbehavior recited in his report. But for strategic reasons inclusion of these grounds for impeachment can be supported by reference to the report itself without calling a long string of witnesses. If McGahn becomes available, call him but no one else.
History requires that he bill of impeachment fully reflect the cumulative weight of Trump's transgressions.
7
What I've learned after almost three years now of the Trump administration is that no one can predict, assume or pretend to know how anything is going to turn out in regards to Trump.
The sky is now where the sea is, black is white, day is night, upside down is right-side up.
If there's anything I'm most concerned about is that the general public will slowly start to turn to violence to let the steam out of the kettle and no one will be able to be in a position of believable authority to stop it.
Meanwhile, politicians will use it for fundraising emails, you watch.
Irritating that these hearings preempt The Price Is Right...no justice in the world.
4
Impeachment isn't a popularity contest or an election. It's a political process to reign in overweening power by the executive in a democracy. I don't care whether the majority of voters care or not. For Congress to give Trump a pass on the activities now under examination would be to accord him monarchical prerogatives. The Senate might give him a pass, but the House can't just let it slide. As Edmund Burke put it, a representative owes his constituent "his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. ... Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion." In short, opinion polls shouldn't guide either the Democrats or the Republicans in this matter.
5
With some exceptions it almost seems that college educated Americans support impeachment and those who only went as far as high school vehemently oppose it. That speaks volumes.
We’re not merely "voters," and yes, we care. Because we care about restoring order to democracy, we care that Congress follow a legitimate process.
8
@Alix Hoquet: Nominally, all individual voters in USA, Inc. should represent equal weight proxies in federal elections. How is anything else "legitimate"?
@Alix Hoquet
And what has not been "legitimate" about this process?
According to Mitch McConnell, whoever's in charge of the Senate gets to break with existing legitimate processes, and refuse to even meet with a nominee for the Supreme Court (just because he was nominated by a Black Democrat). If you didn't complain about that illegitimate process then, then you have no right t complain whether this one is legitimate or not.
Furthermore, the Constitution clearly spells out that the House gets to decide the rules of how it wants to conduct its own business. The the rules of the House state that proceedings are run by whichever party is in the majority. To quote a famous Republican: "You folks lost; get over it."
Sorry, but you hypocrites can't have it both ways.
Given that the republican controlled senate will never "remove" Trump, the House should continue this process until each and every crime Trump committed is exposed and fully investigated.
By expanding the impeachment inquiry to include all of the incidents of obstruction clearly identified in the Mueller report, to include all of the Emolument Clause violations Trump committed, and innumerable more crimes, the hope remains that one or more will finally resonate with Trump supporters who will refuse to vote for him in 2020.
Simultaneously, the tariff wars are taking their toll and the healthy economy Obama left Trump will inexorably collapse. Perhaps when enough Trump supporters realize that their manufacturing jobs are not returning, they will open their eyes and recognize the horror in the WH.
9
It seems clear to me that our elected representatives in the House and the Senate do not really care what the public thinks about almost anything until they are near to an election. So, it matters not a whit what the public thinks about impeaching and convicting President Trump because the public does not get a vote on the matter. It is unlikely that any member of the House will lose in the next election over voting to impeach or not, and only 1/3 of the Senate even has to answer to constituents a year from now. So, let us get off this line about the public's opinion and focus on those who actually have a say.
2
@Eric Key: And let those with no say drop dead? This system is broken.
Whether the average person follows or cares about impeachment should have no bearing on following through with the process.
Look at how many people don't even bother to vote in any election.
If we want to try and have some semblance of keeping a democracy intact we need to go through the process.
Even though Republicans don't seem to care about following the constitution and rules of impeachment we need to follow through with the proceedings.
All of this makes me wonder if there are any Republicans left in office or the electorate who believe in the constitution and following the foundations set forward by the founders.
6
@Magan: It is surreal to keep reading about people not voting under a system that arguably nullifies a majority of the votes cast in presidential elections. Why bother?
There is a heckuva lot of jumping to conclusions in this one. Building invisible bridges won't get the hangman over the chasm. Nor does it seem sensible to continue in a process that will be ultimately pointless when the Senate doesn't vote to remove him from office. They might vote to impeach him, but he'll just take the document that says he's been officially impeached and hang it like a trophy on the Oval Office wall. He'll get visitors to pose with him in front of it, big smiles.
Then he'll keep a bowl of fresh peaches on coffee table.
This whole impeachment thing seems more like getting demerits at a military academy. You've been impeached... yeah, so what? Eisenhower got a lot of demerits at West Point, but he turned out okay with everything he did. Robert E Lee didn't get a single one, and look what happened to him.
Never trust the goody-two-shoes types.
Civics is no longer taught in many public schools. For many of us, this unfortunately has led to a poor understanding about our U. S. Constitution and our three co-equal branches of government.
The Impeachment Hearings are presenting a series of powerfully important public Civics lessons for our country.
5
The dwindling number of Trump supporters have decided to go down with the ship, not caring about what the Constitution says or anyone's oath of office.
They just don't want to lose to a Democrat. They prefer the socialist Trump putting our farmers on the welfare rolls. They even excuse Putin's attacks on our sovereignty.
3
The problem is not ultimately about Trump, but about democracy.
I hope Michael Tomasky considers the "Democracy" song.
"Democracy is coming to the USA" (Leonard Cohen, 1992)
If we keep Trump from being reelected, a new democracy wave
may come, with new safe guards to protect our democracy.
I hope the Times writes about the Democracy song, soon.
"Democracy is coming to the USA"
3
@H Pearle - L. Cohen - God Rest His Enlightened Soul - also wrote "Everybody Knows" to consider the contrary.
The one thing anyone who has been paying any attention to the Trump presidency can count on is that Trump will constantly make mistakes, say outrageous things and demand illegal acts be committed to his personal advantage.
Also, there is a lot we don't know yet about the Ukraine deal, Trump's taxes, McGahn's testimony to Mueller, Giuliani's activities, how Pence, Pompeo and Mulvaney enabled Trump's impeachable acts and so on and so on.
Additionally, drawing out the Impeachment Inquiry and the Senate Trial also keeps the narrative focused on Trump's unfitness for the presidency and makes it harder for him to dominate the airways.
With 22 Republican Senators up for reelection in 2020 to 12 Democrats, keeping those senators in Senate chambers listening to testimony and unavailable to campaign greatly favors Democrats and works toward flipping the Senate in 2020.
Today Republicans said the evidence for impeachment is not weighty enough. Great! Democrats should keep it rolling. More evidence will inevitably emerge that totally sinks Trump and leads to a big win in 2020 that makes Trumpism a toxic term and a cautionary tale for the ages.
5
The GOP will accede to Trump’s impeachment in the Senate. The facts are there, incontrovertible in nature, by sworn testimony for all to see. More items for impeachment than Nixon and Clinton combined. The GOP will be shamed if they swallow this trial whole and exonerate Trump. The Senators know this. Their legacy will be their impugning into history a record for the ages. They will vote for themselves against Trump to clear their names.
7
No, they won't. But, yes, history will certainly judge them harshly. But they don't care -- at least not enough. These are not honorable people. They are base liars, all. They are Republicans.
1
@NOTATE REDMOND one can only hope!
Whether or not the impeachment process runs on or not I’m far more interested in what the release of trump’s tax returns might show us. And is the recent suicide of a senior Deutsche Bank executive related some way; are they connected? After all the only bank that would loan money to trump was that bank. Something to ponder.
5
Nope. Draw it out while continuing to do congressional work. Trump is going to lose every court case in his attempts to obstruct justice. There will be much more evidence of his guilt emerging, probably including an un Barr washed version of his involvement with the Russians in 2016. The right wing is not persuadable, but the middle is.
4
And middle will have to come out to vote in huge numbers. Too many get views from the likes of Hannity and Tucker. And too few are Not watching the proceedings. I’m afraid , very afraid for our democracy.
1
No. They don't.
The vast majority of people have more immediate and relevant concerns. Work, school, daycare, health care, transportation, food, housing et al.
You know, the concerns of the people who live outside the reality distortion field of the Very Serious People who don't have such mundane concerns.
9
@Raven: Giving people no time to think blocks their mental development.
No matter the evidence the senate would never convict trump for the crimes he committed. We the voters need to remove this non-person come November 2020. While were at it let remove russian mitch and gain control of the senate while keeping the house. This is necessitated to keep our democracy in place.
6
The ongoing impeachment discussions have brought back up an issue that disturbs and disappoints me greatly. It is the lack of leadership by members of Congress. This is currently being exhibited by Republicans however I have in the past seen it equally displayed by Democrats. Reporters, past administration officials, retired congressional members and party operatives all routinely excuse a congressional member for not making a tough decision because it is too risky to their reelection. Making a decision because it is good for your political career vs what is morally and ethically right is definitely not leadership. Leadership includes making courageous decisions. As my mother said when I was growing up “ if doing the right thing was always easy we wouldn’t have so much wrong in the world”. Republicans be the leaders that would make our founders proud and that shows you have integrity and are willingly to risk personal goals for the good of our democracy.
2
The column says:
"It’s a deeply emotional question. To many, it’s a clear matter of right and wrong."
I don't believe this for one moment. The Republicans have invented a whole new strata of disingenuousness. They know Trump's actions have been wrong all along. They are just acting outraged.
Were a Democrat being impeached their sentiments would be exactly reversed....And here's the thing; were a Democrat responsible for these very impeachable transgressions, at least SOME Democrats would accept the wrongness of these.
Not this gathering of Republican dissemblers. The Republicans know it is wrong and they don't care.
15
“It’s easy to see why this has become such a pitched battle. It’s a deeply emotional question.”
I find such an assertion a profound underestimation of the intellect of the American citizen. As if we are all sitting around “emoting” over Trump rather than using our God given powers of intelligence and reasoning to ascertain whether Trump’s crimes reach the threshold of impeachment as defined by the Constitution.
I wish commentators would quit politicizing a Constitutionally mandated process. If Trump committed acts that deserve impeachment, then he should be impeached. If he did not, then he should not.
Save the emotion for the childish outbursts of Representative Jordan, and let the American citizen watch, listen, learn, and decide for themselves.
How on earth can this not be a moment of supreme decision for our country?
5
@Paul C. McGlasson: No God cares about humans any more than paramecia. The belief that the US Constitution is a divine creation has frozen in its origin as a compact of liberty to enslave.
Trump will be lambasted by historians with or without impeachment. The whole tedious process keeps the national spotlight on the president and invigorates the right. The Dems need to recall Joshua’s insight in Wargames — “The only winning move is not to play.” Focus on the issues and win the next election.
10
Impeaching Trump only increases his chances of being reelected. He will be acquited by the Senate. This is all Kabuki theater to distract and misdirect voters from the chaotic Democratic primary, chock full of candidates who most deem way too left to vote for, and the Democrats lack of a strategy to win the swing states. Voters in the swing state have felt devalued by Dems for so long that impeachment is just another insult to them.
1
While the impeachment process in the House has been imperfect (helped along greatly by the total obstruction from the administration), it is necessary and needed. If this President's behavior goes totally unchecked he will certainly accelerate his transgressions between now and the 2020 election. At a minimum he needs a signal that Democrats do not accept his behavior as the new norm for all Presidents. Finish the process and send it to the Senate so that McConnell and his colleagues can make a mockery of their Constitutional duties. Then run on that bankrupt Republican example in November and take back the Senate and send the President back to Mar Lago permanently.
5
Yes, proceed. We must keep in mind that the majority never wanted Trump in the first place--but the trend in lack of exercising the right to vote among the majority has been at the heart of this Trump Twilight Zone episode in our history. It's become an almost invisible factor among political pundits' proclamations. And the Republican Party has been diligent in exploiting this non-voting pattern, encouraging just enough pockets of non-majority voters through lying propaganda. And then there's the Republican voter suppression efforts, too--further evidence not only of their fears of a never-Trump majority but also the non-white demographic trends. My hope is in the evidence that a majority voter turnout can make a very important difference--like the party majority turnaround in the House that resulted from that record turnout for midterm elections last year. We wouldn't even be seeing a glimmer of action like the current impeachment process without that record turnout. I say to our majority: VOTE!
5
@Richard Hahn: This whole fraught system plays to a limited number of narcissists in a few swing states.
Morality aside, Pelosi was vocally reluctant to embark on impeachment because her political instincts told her it was a risky bet with big potential downsides, as was illustrated by the Republican Impeachment of Clinton in the 90’s. Then the whistle-blower happened and the odds seemed to shift in the Democrat’s favor and she signed on. Now, after a month of investigating, it has been reasonably shown that Trump did in fact do what the whistle-blower claimed, and yet the issue remains entirely partisan. The GOP voters & politicians have decided to continue to support him. So the political odds have shifted back against the Democrats and yet that risky bet remains on the table and those potential downsides loom large. Wrapping it up now with a vote of censure looks to me like the politically savvy move - it gets much of the benefit and cuts off the risk. But that doesn’t appear to be where things are headed. My political instincts, which I don’t claim are on par with a pro like Pelosi’s, tell me the Democrats are likely to rue their choice next fall.
9
"Do Voters Even Care About the Articles of Impeachment?". Well, it really doesn't matter for most of us. The swing states, those that actually determine who the next President will be, overwhelmingly are opposed to impeachment. And the more the Democrats drag the proceeding on, the more the swing state voters are opposed to it. Somehow, the House leaders are plodding along seemingly oblivious to this fact. And, the Republicans are urging them on. They would like nothing more than a protracted Senate trial which ultimately would end in acquittal and make voters wonder why so much time and effort was wasted. The only hope the Democrats have is to put an end to the process. Otherwise, it will be four more years of Trump.
6
The truth is that the majority of Trump voters don't know what the truth is. They get their news from Fox, or Breitbart and these "news" organizations engage in conspiracy theories to excuse Trumps behavior or simply fail to report his corrupt acts at all. The fact is that Trump military funding for personal political gain, covered it up after the fact, and prevented those involved from testifying or providing evidence. The evidence is clear but only one side will pay an attention.
6
There's been plenty of exposition given today, by experts in constitutional law, why we can't rely on elections alone to settle matters of a President's abuse of power.
The framers of our constitution understood this, which is why they laid out the impeachment process. The entire crux of this article misses the point, in my opinion.
5
GREEN BOOK won the last Best Picture Oscar. And I recalled that from memory immediately without looking it up. But I realize I'm not like most people: I focus on politics and popular entertainment most of the time.
2
We know what the outcome will be: the Senate acquits. So let's get it over. Then the Democrats can focus on the 2020 election. Activate the 60% of the voters who want to remove Trump by ending the internicine battles within the party. Try to win the Senate and hold on to the House. I have already donated $1000 to Democratic candidates and will probably be bankrupt by election time at the current rate. Let's get together and support Democratic candidates that can win office regardless of where they are on the ideological spectrum.
7
No, they surely don't all know, but no one knows for sure whether to go forward or stop soon.
So don't pretend you do.
2
This article misses the point....winning back the Senate. All senators, especially those up for re-election this cycle, need to go on the record and say whether or not they think it is ok for a president to rig an election. Let the voters do the rest.
22
I suspect they would care if the case was clear and obvious. Given that the D party relies on a focus group to position the infraction is all you need to know
7
Do Voters Even Care About the Articles of Impeachment?
This voter does. I care about the rule of law. I care about the constitution.
Republican friends and neighbors also care and also have a much different view of the evidence than GOP office holders are making public.
31
@gc
I care about the rule of law too and I think, regardless of what the Senate does, at least information and sound history lessons are getting out there.
I would bet more American voters are listening than we think.
5
To answer the question posed in your headline:
It doesn't matter!
While it would ideal if all citizens paid attention to this process as it unfolds, the most important thing here is that House Democrats are endeavoring to preserve the U.S. Constitution.
5
Impeachment is not about removing Trump from office. Republicans will never vote for removal.
if a video emerged of Trump throwing a stapler at Bolton for calling the extortion of Ukraine a "drug deal" or threatening Mulvaney with a Barr led fraudulent investigation into him if he didn't get Ukraine to announce a fraudulent investigation into Biden. MAYBE Sen. Romney votes to remove. MAYBE Sen. Collins plays hard to get for a couple of days before falling in line. That leaves 19 more to go.
The vote in Senate is about recording for history the utter perfidy of the Republican Party. Perhaps that will mater in future Congressional elections as evidence of Trump's corruption and anti-democracy actions will be surfacing for years after his administration is over.
Democrats need to do this right. As quickly as possible, but no quicker. This is about doing the right thing the right way. This is for the future. The "now" is beyond remedy as long Republicans are in power.
16
Collins isn't called the Caribou Folder for nothing.
@LT: We may see the self-discreditation of the US Senate and possibly the Supreme Court.
Some voters may not care, tens of millions clearly do. Today, the GOP behaved like a bunch of boors engaged in pointless procedural votes, one after another, just to run out the clock and stop us from hearing testimony from distinguished constitutional scholars who argue that Trump's behavior went far beyond the pale. If they thought voters didn't care one way or there other, why try so hard to silence experts?
24
I consult polls frequently even though their grip on the pulse of the American public is as enigmatic as the oracle of Delphi. I’m hoping to catch the turn of tide when Trump’s behavior penetrates the shell of tribalism and apathy that continues to protect from consequences. Many polls ask what issues are important and give examples such as health care, border security, and the economy. Not one includes government corruption as a choice.That is what matters most to me because all the other issues are tainted by it. The closest polls get to it are the approval of the president and the democratic and republican chambers.In spite of tribalism, most (~55%) disapprove Trump and even more disapprove of his republican enablers. I believe that corruption is a big concern to many people, especially young people, women and people of color. It is very important that we give people assurance of a fair system of election and governance. I have watched all of the house hearings. It’s a comfort to hear testimony from the federal staffers and constitutional scholars who speak clearly and with integrity. Their testimony helps counter the fear I feel when every elected republican responds with silence, dishonesty or disdain for democratic principles.
6
@Em: The US does not have a fair system of federal representation. Trump revealed what a pathetic pinhead he really is when he passed up the historic opportunity to make the presidential election a direct popular vote by calling for a run-off popular election when the Electoral College named him the winner by discarding 3 million votes.
No one who had a seriously open mind about the facts before the recently concluded hearings is now waiting for McGann or Bolton or Mulvaney to admit to what they knew, said, or did when what they knew, said, or did has been so clearly represented by very credible witnesses. Nor do we need to wait to hear them take the Fifth Amendment or otherwise obfuscate in service to Trump. So, on with it. As the writer said, minds are, indeed, made up, and more delays will not help the process.
3
Dear Mr. Tomsky,
I see no reason to rush these hearings or any reason to waive subpoena's for the likes of John Bolton to testify. A battle in the courts to obtain all the records from the WH and witness testimony from the recalcitrant will take time, but this can be done quietly until all the evidence is in.
At that point, it may be surprising how many people will awake from their partisan slumber and support removal as happened with Nixon.
Nixon knew his goose was cooked when they came for the tapes after the court ruled against him. Let Trump try the courts, in my opinion, he will lose just as Nixon did, maybe more so.
Also in my opinion, the more charges that pile up on him that can be proved, the better to remove him.
Sometimes I fear that removal is not really the goal and that once he is impeached Democrats will be satisfied. I will not be satisfied unless he is also removed.
7
Politicians usually reflect their voters.
Trump rode in on a message "what's in it for me". Similarly, and unfortunately, many voters don't see anything in Trump's extortion as affecting themselves so they don't care.
5
I believe the Supreme Court needs to rule once and for all on the limits of Executive Privilege BEFORE the House votes on impeachment. Surely the founding fathers never intended the Executive Branch to be able to shield itself from all Congressional oversight!
7
Hats off to Mr. Turley: his performance of incredulity and pretzel bending was the best I've ever seen. Talk about a pig's ear...
Apparently if you have trouble pinning down the definition of what is in fact a common sense term like "bribery" you can bribe all you want and no one can complain.
Not only is democracy dead, our language is dying as well.
6
"Everyone knows"
That's a general assertion that, when made, I've learned to tune-out, regardless of who is making the claim.
6
I agree it is the underlying acts not the articles themselves that voters will remember, and that's good enough. Most people know wrong from right, even if they make excuses for the wrongdoer. I can't wait to see what Mitch McConnell and Republican Senators do with the evidence. Will Trump testify? Will he suddenly decide that this is a legitimate and serious investigation and send his administration out to defend him with truthful testimony and documents? Will Rudy, Mulvaney, Pompeo, Bolton, Perry and Sondland take the oath and actually answer questions, or hide behind executive privilege and plead the fifth? How long will the Republicans be able to blame Democrats and peddle Putin disinformation and Biden smears instead of providing facts that absolve their president of wrongdoing?
2
To me it’s a discouraging sign of how far we’ve sunken as a nation that so many Americans are willing to turn a blind eye to the reprehensible behavior of this President because they find it politically expedient to do so. Given this disconnect, it isn’t inconceivable that Nixon could have survived Watergate if he were in office today. We deserve better.
30
The punishment must fit the crime or come close. Trump did bad things but nation is split because the punishment, conviction and removal, does not fit the crime. Nixon set the standard for impeachment even though he was not tried in the Senate. He knew he was going to be convicted in the Senate and could have gone to jail if he was not pardoned. Clinton committed perjury and obstruction. He was disbarred, but in hindsight, Clinton's impeachment was a partisan mistake. Why? The punishment, removal from office, did not fit Clinton's crime. Trump morals are terrible, perhaps worse than Clinton's moral lapses, but it just does not warrant removal from office. People get uneasy when you try to undo an election.The House would have been wise to censure Trump like Congress did to his idol, Jackson.
8
You say that people get uneasy when you try to undo an election, and that may well be. But I would argue that people get even more uneasy when someone in a position of extreme power reverts to corruption and blackmail to illegally sway an upcoming election. He is in no way worthy of the office he occupies.
@dudley thompson
People are not trying to undo an election. This is about removing someone from office who has shown themselves to be unfit after the election has taken place.
If there was a desire to undo the election surely that would have been started 3 years ago.
And this 'undoing an election' bit is very tired. I believe everyone has moved on to new talking points.
2
@dudley thompson
I wish everyone would stop with this "undo an election." Republicans should be delighted to have Pence as President if Trump is removed!
1
The impeachment process only confirmed what most Americans already knew. Trump is all about winning. Ethics cheating and lying do not matter. All that counts is the end result. That is how Trump conducted his business affairs. And that is how he presented himself as a candidate. And that is how he has conducted his presidency. Trump being Trump. Does a great economy trump scandalous behaviour? In November 2020 voters will decide.
4
Maybe I should tell this to the cops if I get in trouble?
"Everyone knows what I did. No one cares. Charge me quick and let's get this over with. The jury will acquit me!"
This column is disgraceful and makes a mockery of both the US Justice System and the US Constitution. Both are already severely flawed but come on! We're talking about the President of the United States committing a series of severe crimes relating to tilting the election that he will be a candidate in!!!
I don't care how many columns the NYT will publish saying how the Democrats aren't looking at the broader politics of impeachment, or that Republicans won't convict so whats the point, or that moderates aren't interested in long hearings. This isn't being done for anyone's entertainment but for the health of this country's democracy! If this or any POTUS can get away with clear election fraud they should fear nothing.
How about we please change the subject to WHY Republicans won't convict or participate in good faith instead of just accepting this reality? Or we can talk about conservative media's (lack of honest) coverage of the hearings?
583
Perhaps democrats need to write two bills legalizing the actions for which the president is being impeached. Namely, legalizing a president's ability to suspend aid to a country until its leaders agree to help the president in an upcoming election. And another bill that gives the president the power to decline any subpoenas when being investigated. If representatives and senators see no problem with this, why not make it fair game for all future presidents. My hope is that legislators would find these bills preposterous, which of course is the point.
69
@Thomas Cannon Don't forget to legalize making profits at the president's businesses from special interests, our government, and foreign governments. Also nepotism (Ivanka and Jared not paid by the taxpayers, but they have profited from their positions - i.e., trademarks from China). As for things that are not illegal - the thousands of lies and disinterest in the important facts the briefers try to give him every day, those are OK too.
This is a reality show presidency - Trump was elected because he was fun to watch. I know people who won't or can't go deeper than that and continue to support him. The Republicans in Congress are not good role models and I do not sympathize with their need to get re-elected.
But there are a lot of us who are paying close attention to the impeachment hearings, just as we have followed the news since the 2016 primaries. I think they are fascinating, as were the Nixon hearings we sometimes got to watch in middle school. Citizens who just find them too dull are not doing their jobs as citizens. And commentators who say this is all a waste of time because the people find it boring should be encouraging them to give it some serious thought.
57
@Susana Thank you,@Susana. My thoughts, too. This is really, really important. I can't believe that more US citizens aren't taking election 'tampering' more seriously.
12
Speaking for myself an independent voter. I not only do not care about this partisan power struggle, I am really very annoyed that congress is wasting their time by not doing people's work. Every time think of the problems Americans are facing, people that are getting killed due to gun violence or the homeless that are on street corners or student with a college degree with no job or lots of student loan to repay, I get appalled. I did not find any of the intelligence committee witnesses aside from ambassador Volker that were credible. Today's so called arm chair partisan scholars were pathetic and we in this country have too many lawyers anyway. They did not seem to have done their homework but repeated what they read from the Democratic report.
I agree with Michael Tomasky. The democrats need to empty their bowel contents or quit the pot quickly and get down to doing the people's work which they promised to do if they are elected in the 2018 mid term elections. To use Trump's phrase, what do they have to lose by bringing their articles of impeachment to the floor. I guess they are afraid their power will be diminished when the senate takes up and does not convict the president.
10
@Girish Kotwal
What makes you think that Congress would be doing the people's work if there were not impeachment hearing?
We have a divided Congress. The Democrats in the House pass legislation and it goes to the Republicans in the Senate to die. Occasionally, we get some horse trading and pork barrel expenditures so to avoid government shutdowns. But big picture legislation on things like education, or infrastructure? Nada, zilch, zip, nothing.
12
@Girish Kotwal
Mitch will not allow the Senate to do any of "the people's work" so they may as well have a nice, long trial.
@Girish Kotwal this is a talking point designed by the Trump spin machine. (“Do-nothing Democrats”). Meanwhile Pelosi and Co. have passed more than *five hundred* pieces of legislation in the year since the Dems took control of the House. It is McConnell who dubbed himself the “Grim Reaper” in the Senate, vowing to kill anything passed on to him by the House. And specifically to one of your points, common-sense, bipartisan gun legislation was PASSED in the house this year and guess who refused to take it up way back in August? Mr. Grim Reaper McConnell. The Dems are perfectly capable of running the actual government (and fighting for student loan forgiveness and better healthcare) AND prosecuting their other duty to keep tabs on a lawless executive branch gone amok. What makes me angry is that anyone buys into the Republican rhetoric that the Democrats are “doing nothing but impeachment” when they’re passing LITERALLY hundreds of pieces of legislation while being stonewalled and shot down at every turn. Do some research before spouting the spin.
Propaganda works.
It worked in 1930's Germany and 1960's Russia.
It's working today on Fox "news".
Viewers who receive the majority of their information from Fox will never see Trump for what he is. A dictator in the classic sense of the word. They confuse commentary and reportage.
The unbiased media needs to do a better job in calling Trump out for his actions. There is much to overcome - Sinclair and Fox are formidable propaganda machines.
7
The house passed zero articles of impeachment against Nixon, not three. Nixon resigned before the house could vote. That is made clear in the top of the article that the author links to. Did the author even read the linked article?
2
@David
That’s correct, but the author does qualify that later in the article by saying “(or would have been, in Nixon’s case).”
The House was ready to vote on three articles against Nixon. Once The Smoking Gun was aired, Nixon lost support and was told by his own Party that the party was over and he would be impeached. So he quit before the vote was taken and the whole process was wound down days later.
Regardless of public opinion, now or nearer to the election, assuming Trump survives this process, impeachment was necessary.
Trump is the worst president to ever serve in the office, and nothing will change that. He was terrible when he won the election and he is far worse now, simply because he believes he can get away with anything.
Maybe he can, and perhaps he will be reelected. Many people would lose faith in our system of government if that should happen.
1
Barr is wading into fascism and is certainly running against the will of the founders with his comments on "radical secularists" and that police critics should not receive the services of the police. He is speaking like an authoritarian and one wonders, because so much of the Trump corruption has foreign ties, with whom he's collaborating to advance his scary agenda.
5
@David
I saw that too about the police. I couldn't believe it. Barr is even more unhinged than Trump.
Sorry,I ended my previous comment early. Continuing ....
Fortunately, it is unnecessary to impeach the Chosen One only once. Given what we fully expect will happen, the see-no-evil GOP Senators will obediently acquit and the Imposter will go on committing additional offenses so long as he is allowed to remain in office. The urgent immediate need to impeach can be satisfied by a narrow set of Articles of Impeachment, while the longer-term need to establish constraints on presidential conduct can be addressed at length in one or more separate sets of Articles.
1
Yes, I care. So much more to say, but busy listening to the hearings today...
3
I'm responding to the headline, specifically to the mythical "voters" (as if the term citizens was too inclusive, and might imply an obligation that the term voters doesn't carry.)
Impeachment is an indictment that claims that crimes have been committed. This should not have anything to do with how much personal investment or opinion any abstract person may claim or deny, but it should be a question of facts.
While It is true that one can agree on the facts and still disagree with the law, the current very disingenuous responses by Trumps defenders that have both facts and law against them [after all, at the time when it was thought that Clinton was going to win, there were Repub;ican voices vowing to impeach her as soon as she took office because of ?? emails? Behghazi?? (she was a Democrat? woman?).
Without facts and without reason (which hopefully the law represents) Trump defenders are claiming that the tribalism of their Fox News-deceived partisans' antagonism against any restraints on Trump negates any attempt to hold him accountable.
It is as if when there is burglary on your block, the neighbors are polled to see if the captured thief should be charged and if 40% say no, then he is let go.
What Trump is being charged with is a crime. Voters' opinions, especially prior to a full trial, should play no part in its outcome.
3
Absolutely correct. 70% think he did it. 51% thinks he should be impeached.
1
Democrats can’t rely on “your guess”, learned as it may be, anymore than they should rely on Jonathan Turley’s argument that “Congress is abusing its power by impeaching the president.” Congress can’t wait for AG Barr, though he’ll meet his due in due time. As expected, Nadler’s Committee hearings, along with his chosen counsel and “legal Constitutional experts” have been a big yawn and not quite effective in educating the public. While Republican Committee members acted and reacted predictably, they didn’t make any persuasive arguments. The badly constructed hearing speaks for itself. Nadler should be removed from the Chairmanship.
I'm a voter and yes I care!
I'm also a millennial, and I care.
So . . . yup.
7
Who is everyone? We know who's in denial. Those who live in fear they'll lose their seats--they don't care about this country and want to stay in Congress forever. Trump voters don't care; they still believe his promises (lies, of course). Independents have to be convinced to vote Democratic; they're the key for Democrats to win in 2020.
3
"Everyone knows what Trump did" Well, sort of. How much of what he did remains shrouded in a cover up, yet to see the light of day? Since you're a betting man, I'll wager that the worst of Trump's crimes are still hidden, and if they come to light would get even many of his supporters to finally agree that he has to go. No, let the process continue, and if they find the evidence, let it speak.
As bad as Trump's actions have been as laid out so far in the hearings, they fall short of the level to impeach for many people, even many Democrats. To rush the process, and close off inquiry, would leave many with those same reservations, and weaken the case for conviction in the Senate.
Of course, it might well be that no amount of evidence will suffice to convince his supporters, or be enough to turn any Republicans in Congress to the side of justice, but to simply assume that minds won't be swayed before every attempt to uncover his crimes completely doesn't serve the Constitution or justice.
Trump has committed an assault against our democracy, and worse, sought help from our enemies in so doing. It's not about a "quid pro quo", or his attempts to cover that up, it's a long pattern of anti-American and anti-democratic actions on his part. In the end, every American has to be asked to make a choice: will they stand for a traitor, or will they stand for America? Give them the evidence to make that choice unambiguous.
2
Quite frankly bring up the interest or smarts of the American "people" is a lame excuse for not doing anything. The so called "people" are more interested in the latest sales on Cyber Monday and what not. Half of them don't even vote for crying out aloud. I am willing to bet a whole paycheck that greater than 70% would be hard pressed to name the previously impeached Presidents correctly by name. And we are waiting for their OK? Give me a break!
1
I have heard intelligent people state the exact rhetoric that Trump and his purchased newscasters and congresspersons have been stating-that Trump has not done anything wrong and this is fake news and the democrats wanted to impeach him since election. IT WORKS! Advertising these things to the public on Fox News as unbiased news has had its effect! People believe it is fact. The congress should know better. They have the facts and hopefully the tools to sort fact from fiction. What I am left to wonder is how much Trump has paid the Republicans each personally so that they would side with him through 3 years of abominable behavior.
1
History will remember this as a attempted Coup by the Democrat Party ...and over half of Trump's Voters see him as a Greater President than Lincoln ...which considering the Amazing Job with the record low unemployment and booming economy and the long list of other accomplishments like building the Wall with the Democrats doing everything they can to sabotage him...I as a Independent Voter would concur he is the Greatest leader in the Free World by Far!
7
@There for the grace of A.I. goes
I agree completely!! President Trump has done an amazing job!! And he’ll be RE-elected in 2020!!
I have always followed a variety of news sources like a hawk.
And yes, I care about these impeachment inquiries.
The first duty of a citizen is to be informed.
6
The issue is not really what Democrats do, I suggest with much diffidence. It's what Republicans do during these hearings. And they are blowing it. Jim Jordan in particular is killing the Republicans with Independents I know. Republicans should be very concerned about this. Every Republican who follows suit - who yells and shouts and gets all nutty and sounds like a true extremist - is just killing their cause. Unfortunately, they are being urged to act this way by the president himself, who really knows no other way of behaving. As I listen to this, I ask myself: Who do I want in charge of this country? Extremists? No. I don't care what stripe they are. If someone is acting nutty and all righteous and certain - never in a million years do I want that person in public office. I don't care how much I agree with him or her. Everyone I've talked to has expressed similar reservations. We need sane, thoughtful people discussing these issues in calm, collected way. Those who talk like that will carry the day.
6
Should decent, conscientious Americans care if 1/3 of the country doesn't care about the Constitution, democracy, or political honor and ethics? NO.
7
It is time to neither let up nor give up. Keep hearings going until the courts have ruled on the enforceability of every subpoena, and expand the scope of crimes being investigated to obstruction, perjury, campaign finance offences, tax violations, the emoluments clause, the kitchen sink.
There seems little chance that the Senate GOP will find their scruples and admit Trump has committed offenses for which he should be removed from office. If they do, and they indicate the votes are there to remove Trump, then move ahead with impeachment.
If the Republican intransigence continues, then do not allow an impeachment vote on this side of election day. Trump must not be allowed to claim that not being removed from office constitutes exoneration and confirms that the impeachment inquiry was a hoax.
2
Those of us who support our President wholeheartedly like I do will never change our minds when it comes to this farce. The Democrats have been trying to overturn the election and it only makes me more determined to support him
10
@Iconoclast Texan
So you will uncritically follow this President despite any evidence that is provided? That is indeed what you just said. "... never change our minds..." That is disappointing and speaks volumes about the challenges our Republic faces.
8
@Iconoclast Texan
How is this an attempt to overturn an election? If Trump is removed from office, you get President Pence. He was on the ticket too, you know. "Overturning" the election is just a talking point; impeachment is discussed in the Constitution just like elections.
8
@Iconoclast Texan
I doubt this is going to get through to you, given that you've said that no amount of evidence can change your mind, but:
This is about Trump's thorough corruption, not an "attempt to overturn the election." Democrats thought Bush II was a thoroughly awful President, but they didn't attempt impeachment. There weren't any grounds.
Trump on the other hand has repeatedly indulged in behavior that would put him in jail if he weren't President. The only reason he isn't in prison now is he has so much political cover from the Senate, and they only do that because he's popular with his base.
As for why you're supporting him... well, that's not clear. He's not doing anything for you, or the country. Everything Trump does is for Trump.
This isn't a conservative / liberal issue, or a Republican / Democratic issue. It's a petty dictator vs. the Constitution issue.
What to do with William Barr? Tar and feather of course.
Best Picture last year? "Moonlight." Who could forget the mishap with "La La Land."
I happen to agree with Tomasky though. There's no reason to drag this thing out. What we need is a Republican vote on record long before election day. History can sort out the details. I trust the future will prove a very cruel mistress to the Senate. The GOP should consider their legacies carefully in this moment. I don't think acquitting Trump will win them McCain-style respect. Just throwing it out there.
As I've mentioned previously, Trump also has the opportunity to make history twice. There's nothing in the Constitution that prevents Congress from impeaching a President more than once. Stick to facts you have at hand. If more evidence becomes available, we can always return to it later. Hopefully Trump won't last long enough for there to be a later. Instead, we can spend years throwing mud at the current Republican House and Senate.
Is "keelhaul" too strong a word?
1
@Andy: They're really in a box. There is no objective credibility to the way the Senate is apportioned with respect to the critical functions of vetting appointees and treaties, and conducting impeachment trials.
It would be useful to force the Supreme Court into ruling on whether congressional subpoenas are enforceable against the various Trump actors who have refused to testify. Trump could be re-elected, and even if he is not, another president may pull the same kind or power play to avoid oversight. If the court deems that a president may do as he pleases and prevent congressional investigation, we the people need to know that so that we can begin changing the Constitution to include specific language that would prevent such abuse and salvage the republic. But if the court rules that these players must testify, even if it does so in August, the country will be prepared to continue with a proper balance of powers in the future. If a few articles of impeachment are delivered to the Senate before this matter is adjudicated, then it's likely the court would find it moot and the next time such subpoenas are authorized, as early as next year, we'll have to go through the whole ridiculously elongated legal process all over again.
Bush VS Gore showed that the normally slow Supreme Court can move quickly. We should seriously consider whether the court ought to act more quickly in these matters of impeachment. Impeachment is arguably just as import to the republic as elections.
4
Do voters care? In sum, no. That's not the literal point: the decision to undertake impeachment should be solely to protect the Constitution.
Must elected officials wait for all the impeachable offenses to be accounted for? Normally, I'd say yes; let's go through this one time and resolve it finally. But this president seems willing to undertake high crimes and misdemeanors on a regular basis. And since there is more than a passing possibility that the president and the Republican party have been compromised by enemies of the United States, we can't wait.
Prosecute what you've got. If/when more happens, prosecute again.
3
Impeachment strategy should be based on whatever will do the most political damage to Trump. This isn't about removing him from office (not possible), it's about setting him up for a beating at the polls next November.
5
I agree with this article completely. I’m a political junky, and even I find myself bored with this impeachment, mostly because I know exactly how the movie ends: with acquittal in the senate and a maddening chorus of “total exoneration!” from Trump and his supporters. Righteous or not, the whole thing feels a bit pointless, and I fear it will only strengthen Trump’s shot in 2020. He’ll be able to claim it was a witch hunt, and the left won’t have much of a rebuttal because it’s hard to call an acquitted man guilty.
94
@Y.N.
I strongly disagree. It is not pointless. The point is preserving the U.S. Constitition and the integrity of our laws. Without those, it doesn't matter who wins in 2020.
106
@Know/Comment I get your point. And to an extent, I agree. But the best way to preserve our constitution is to get Trump out of office. I'm concerned that this impeachment might run counter to that goal.
9
@Y.N. Given that no one can accurately predict the future and how the hearings will affect the electorate, principled people have to do simply do what's right. Trump, and apparently too many republican senators, have no conscience. By exposing this grim reality thru these hearings, the electorate may correct the blasphemous actions of Trump and his cohorts.
42
There is an urgent need to eject the reprehensible incumbent who now holds the world hostage. There is a need to establish that he has committed numerous impeachable offenses lest some future despot argue that this man's crimes went unremarked and thus must be accepted as permissible precedent.
5
I know of nothing done by Trump that isn't vulnerable to impeachment on some level.
3
Nothing is final until the tax returns are released and thoroughly scrutinized. And yes, voters care...
12
Trump will hold out, to his last dying breath, that the public will ever see his tax returns. We already know that he is hiding them because they reveal his criminal behavior. We need to work with what we have, already: a treasure trove of evidence that warrants impeachment and removal from office.
Sure, keep the door open for more witnesses to testify under oath. Take it to the Intelligence Committee. Frankly, those Democrats seem to be able to ask smarter questions. Chairman Schiff can always file additional reports. But I don’t see any need to delay until we get every last piece of information.
Judiciary has enough evidence to draft Articles of Impeachment now. Clearly the Republicans are going to defend Trump at all costs, even if it means trashing the witnesses. The House needs to do their constitutional duty and vote to impeach this President.
Should we wait for more information or further proof, or wait for a Court ruling to decide if key players have to testify? The Republicans really don’t want to hear from fact witnesses like Bolton or Pompeo anyway, and Mulvaney has shown himself to be a loose cannon.
Of course the House could vote and then wait on sending it over to the Senate.
5
Continue or table the hearings until the courts enforce the Congressional subpoenas. On this point, I agree with Prof. Jonathan Turley, one of the ivory-tower witnesses today. So what if the matter may not be resolved until past November? (The Senate won’t convict anyhow.) Better to nail down all the facts -- and, more importantly, let it fester. Let Trump's shameful obstruction be an continuing issue. The scarlet letter of impeachment? It's not necessary. Of more value is the humiliation Trump is sure to suffer from being a one-term president. And one term is best ensured with letting the hearings drag on as long as needed, and getting all the facts.
1
@Thrifty Drifty
I agree. As it stands now, the Senate will cut Trump loose so what's the point? If we wait for the courts to let us get our hands on a tone more docs and testimony, it's entirely possible that something will pop up that even the Republicans won't be able to defend. Some, as yet to be uncovered docs, could show actual criminality that might even turn enough of Trump's base against him which would allow the Senators to impeach without blow back on their own races.
2
We need to hold this president accountable before the election . His henchmen , led by Giuliani, continue to play their dirty tricks with our upcoming election as we speak. The world laughed him out of Europe today. Haven’t we all suffered enough?
@Thrifty Drifty
You either didn't listen to Turley at all, or simply have no idea how digest rational critiques of this disaster that is the Democrats' path to losing another election.
Scholars can be cherry-picked as well as relevant facts, and no voter - left or right - believes that this process has been anything more than a political game.
13
@Objectivist
Quote: "no voter - left or right - believes that this process has been anything more than a political game."
Really? Perhaps it's best if you speak for yourself alone. I take these proceedings very seriously. This isn't a game.
22
@Objectivist
I don't see this as a political game!
7
@Objectivist , Scholars can be cherry picked, but the facts are the facts. 48.5% now support impeachment.
3
Amongst eight topics of interest for voters in a survey, impeachment was the lowest at 40%. Economy and Healthcare are at the top and far ahead. No one is really bothered much what Trump or Biden did (didn't) as it does not affect their lives directly. Dems and their friendly media should focus on that.
6
I must disagree about the legal scholars not being riveting. Perhaps not in today's turbocharged pob culture world, but I found these intelligent, focused men and women a welcome change from the Congressional verbal chaos and cacophony.
22
Since these hearings are focused on Trump's use of foreign powers to get himself elected, it makes sense to try to get this crook out of office sooner rather than later.
However, we also know that, spurred on by powerful forces, Mitch McConnell and his GOP henchmen are busy enforcing unity among Congressional Republicans. They will protect Trump at any cost. So, there is, of course, no chance that Trump will be forced out of office.
The House Democrats therefore, should do all they can to keep Trump's behavior, which is a Clear and Present Danger to our country, in the limelight for as long as possible.
"We The People" should not become
"We The People and Ukraine/Russia/China".
Thoughts, prayers and Vote, America.
5
I care. I want it on the record that he has been impeached, but not convicted by the Senate. It will be an important line in the history of the era, a moment when the coming authoritarianism could have been stopped.
If I were a Democrat in the House or Senate, I sure would want my name down on record as having tried to impeach Trump.
75
@Chris
And I want it on the record as to who wouldn't vote to convict this bully, con man, dictator-wanna be, etc.
This President has proven what I long suspected.
That is, that our politics needs to change.
4
We need to move forward with the process, but be aware that those of us who follow it intently are living in a bubble. Outside the bubble, vast swaths of the ill-educated and disinterested American electorate can’t even name the three branches of government or find Washington on a map, much less follow the impeachment proceedings.
I believe the founding fathers expected that Americans would possess at least a rudimentary knowledge of their own government and participate to a degree that would preserve our democracy. Instead, we are allowing ignorance, anti-intellectualism, racism and greed to drag us down. They must be turning in their graves.
39
@LIChef
Yes, because the erudite and sophisticated readership of the New York Times are the only people who should be allowed to vote. Maybe we should re-institute property ownership requirements for suffrage too.
Government doesn't work for the unwashed masses you so clearly despise, so why should they waste time and energy following this political theater that's only going to end in the Senate acquitting the president and Trump claiming victory? Of course Trump broke the law and deserves to be impeached, but there's zero chance he will be removed from office, so why bother caring about this dog-and-pony show that only distracts from the Democratic primary and has zero effect on the bread and butter issues facing the American people.
Bread and circuses for people who read the New York Times.
I agree that a fairly quick process is necessary given the short attention spans and collapsed IQs of the American public.
However, these televised witness proceedings are invaluable to the American public because it gives Americans refresher courses in civics, facts and reality in a noncommercial venue.
These refresher courses remind decent Americans with a moral compass that Donald Trump and the GOP swamp is simply off the charts with their relation to facts, civics, human decency and Constitutional respect.
Come November 3 2020, enough swing voters will remember that when it came to judge Presidential crimes and misdemeanors, Devin Nunes and the GOP Sunshine Band had zero interest in discovering the truth or punishing corruption, preferring instead to peddle propaganda for a living.
Impeach Trump.
Register.
Vote.
And impeach the entire GOP on November 3 2020.
255
@Socrates Come November 2020, Nunes may have been removed from office for his own Ukraine shenanigans.
1
Proceed with impeachment, three counts. No further evidence will change any Senate votes. Bolton? I doubt it, but if he knows something truly awful, he should come forward on his own and soon. Pompeo or Mulvaney, forget it. Wrap it up and submit the formal articles of impeachment for a full vote in the House by Christmas. No more games.
145
@C.L.S. I don’t understand why Mulvaney’s public admission that this went down isn’t used more as direct proof. I’d throw that in the face of anyone who said all the testimony is secondhand. Best of all it was unsolicited, the best kind of testimony.
12
@C.L.S. Wait for Parnas to cut his deal with Justice. Then he'll turn over lots more incriminating evidence against the whole kit and caboodle known as Trump Inc.
Do Voters Even Care About the Articles of Impeachment?
No.
The only ones clamoring for this are the 'Never Trump, not my president, she was robbed' crowd who wish to see the 2016 election results overturned via impeachment.
No one else cared.
Did he do this right? nope, he fumbled whatever he was trying to do.
Is this as bad as Fast and Furious, bombing mosques, hospitals, weddings, selling the Saudis the weapons for genocide in Darfur, deporting millions, the housing crisis and the rest of the stuff Obama and Biden did?
Not even close.
This was plain clear to all who have any sense of analysis.
The Democrats should have seen this too. But instead they pandered to the 'not my president' crowd. now the 2020 hopefuls are being drowned out by this impeachment circus, and people are getting more and more disillusioned with the Democratic party.
Wait for 2020, the silent majority will loudly tell you what their real opinion was of this mess the Democrats made.
17
@AutumnLeaf
I am not wanting to overturn the 2016 elections. I want this crook and his cronies to be held accountable.
Talk about pandering. POTUS is pandering to his base—since before the election—and his base only, not to the majority of Americans.
9
@AutumnLeaf , When Trump was "elected" I was not optimistic, but hoped that the office would shape him into at least an adequate president. Clearly that is not possible for him as he has pandered to Putin, and conducted himself like a wise guy, 2 bit hood in the most important position on the world stage.( FYI trump has sold arms to the Saudis, the housing crisis preceded Obama.)
3
@AutumnLeaf:
It's rather stunning to see how often comments like "No one cares" appear in these NYT comment sections.
Suggestion: why don't those of you who don't care speak for yourselves? And leave the rest of us out of it.
Because some of us do care. Some of us recognize these proceedings for the important historical events that they are. Some of us recognize that there's a criminal sitting in the White House and care about it. Some of us, in fact, care about this country.
Maybe take your assumptions elsewhere.
1
This editorial is as time-wasting as the impeachment process it criticizes. It takes far too many words to say: "Keep your on the prize. Don't sweat the details."
A thousand words or more to express a sentiment that would have been better expressed with nine.
Yes. This voter cares. Intensely. The rule of law in our country, and protection from tyrants depends upon our response.
37
Fine. 3 or 4 articles are fine with me. However, I hope someone compiles and publishes the list of the hundreds - literally hundreds - of offenses that Trump has committed for which he could, and should, be removed from office.
The treasonous Republican party won't convict him, anyway. They would condone any crime, any evil, for the benefit of clasping a hold on power. Not only do they empower Trump's reign of deceit, but they almost all lie shamelessly and profusely themselves, in his defense.
62
@AM Seriously. I'd buy the book that details and exhaustively cross-references all of the scandals. I fear we're never going to get a comprehensive graft assessment.
1
Half the Americans surveyed favor Trump's impeachment and removal from office, BUT the other half is either vehemently opposed to the whole concept, uncommitted, or uncaring. Trump's supporters have repeatedly demonstrated they will forgive any sin, including collusion, as long as the economy goes their way. Financial malfeasance is not enough, leaning on a foreign ally is not enough, filing a hundred well-reasoned articles of impeachment is not enough. The impeachment inquiry must produce hard evidence of treason to change any minds. Anything less will result in the Congressional equivalent of a mistrial and even more separation between the tribes.
5
I was not entirely surprised to observe that the house does not have the power to conduct an impeachment investigation.
That power (to investigate) apparently rests with the judiciary, and with the justice department, which falls under the white house.
The only power the founders gave to congress seems to be the holding of hearings and voluntary depositions.
It makes for interesting theater, but does not rise to any level of effective oversight of any president who decides to behave like an absolute ruler.
Maybe voters will elect another president, but whoe er succeeds this one needs to worry little aboit accountability or oversight other than voluntary protests from people in the government sphere who disagree with presidential actions, whether national security or self-dealing are involved.
Still waiting on the release of tax returns... Meanwhile, I see no serious process for accountability here.
Looking forward to the inevitable pardons for Manafort, Stone and the rest of the bunch.
Neal Katyal, who authored the toothless special counsel statute recently expressed surprise about the investigation stonewalling.
Did the founding fathers convert a british style monarchy into a Banana Republic?
4
Impeachment is a Constitutional remedy, not a partisan exercise.
If Republicans - and their enablers in the media - weren't so myopically hyper-partisan, they'd see that, in the face of Mr Trump's continued, egregious, unapologetic abuse of power, impeachment was the only option left to those who still cherish our Constitution, our democracy, and the importance of having free, fair and safe elections.
Thankfully, most of America agrees.
51
In a December 2013 congressional hearing, responding to a question from Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) about the danger posed by President Barack Obama's apparent unilateral modification of laws passed by Congress, Turley said:
The danger is quite severe. The problem with what the president is doing is that he's not simply posing a danger to the constitutional system. He's becoming the very danger the Constitution was designed to avoid. That is the concentration of power in every single branch. This Newtonian orbit that the three branches exist in is a delicate one but it is designed to prevent this type of concentration. There is [sic] two trends going on which should be of equal concern to all members of Congress. One is that we have had the radical expansion of presidential powers under both President Bush and President Obama. We have what many once called an imperial presidency model of largely unchecked authority.
and Turley also thinks executive privilege is a constitutional danger w/o basis.....
so cross him on that!
2
Well, what CAN we do about William Barr? It seems that Trump has had time to load the whole administration with liars and crooks, and has what’s left of the GOP by the . . .
7
Yes, we do. Some of us even vote.
24
I get tired of the press asking us, the American Voters, "How much is too much?"
We are not stupid. We are abhorred by the evidence that has been collected on him since we first heard of the pre-election investigations. The fact that Trump implicates himself every time he opens his mouth just adds insult to your assumption that we don't care.
Let's be clear: only Trump's base can stomach his treason.
The pertinent questions EVERY reporter should be asking of the GOP senators and congresspeople who pretend to be blind to the obvious is, "What does Russia have on you? PAC payments? Kompromat?"
Don't just turn on your cameras and then wait for the brave voters who have the guts to ask this during the few town halls the GOP may hold. We need these revelations NOW.
6
I doubt that nearly 35% of the electorate has a life size, accurate picture of the facts in the Ukraine case, leaving aside the daily torrent of distraction pouring out of the White House.
There are two (2) parallel universes extant in our great Nation, that somehow contain all of our diversity, with some, but very little overlap between the two.
What a strange place we have evolved to know. -C
2
Americans do not care about ANYTHING enough to act. They do not even care enough to act when their own kids are getting shot going to school. The most Americans are willing to do is post memes on Instagram, beyond that NOTHING.
20
Whatever wrong, if any, Mr. Trump has done, few Americans are interested because it involves what to most people is an insignificant, corrupt east European country and has nothing whatever to do with U.S. domestic politics. It is also transparently clear to everyone that the Democrats are making a big brouhaha out of this for, as they hope, domestic political advantage. Why are they doing this? Because they know their socialistic domestic political agenda is unattractive to most Americans and isn't gaining traction, so they probably can't get into the White House on the strength of their proposed leftist policies. As an alternative strategy they hope to turn the voters against Mr. Trump as some sort of 'constitutional criminal', which, despite all his rough edges, most voters do not think he is. It's a hard sell for the Dems and there's little evidence that they're having any luck making the sale; polls show they're not moving the needle, but they are boring people to death and making themselves look like obsessive, one-track, self-interested political cranks (which they are)--and that's the whole thing in a nutshell.
8
@Ronald B. Duke it is also very possible that “all his rough edges” are illegal or at least immoral self-dealing and that his actions are egregious enough to strip him of his office. And “boring people to death” can’t be one of the criteria for choosing whether to hold hearings. Just because a Kardashian isn’t the hearing room doesn’t mean this process isn’t vitally important to our democracy.
And you’ll notice that there was not a single argument from the Republicans at the hearings to dispute the facts at hand. The President cannot hold up money that’s been disbursed by Congress without discussing it with them. Period, full stop.
All else that has been endlessly beaten (Ukraine being a minor country, Trump’s treason being only minor treason, “everyone knowing” Ukraine was already corrupt, and how boring these ‘minor players’ are to listen to) has no bearing on this fact. Oh, and that by refusing to turn over documents and provide duly subpoenaed witnesses he is obstructing Congress. Whatever it might make Democrats “look like” there are still facts left in the world, and still a rule of law that must be upheld, regardless of how glossy the TV production of it might be. I’d think the same thing if it were a Democrat in the White House. Laws still matter here. I really do believe that.
@Ronald B. Duke
"Rough edges," indeed! And Republicans are scared to allow a truly fair election, because they know they will lose.
We need to have on record that this president was impeached. It will be a stain on his legacy forever. This voter cares very much.
697
@Lee
It's not ultimately about Trump, but about democracy.
I hope Michael Tomasky considers the "Democracy" song.
"Democracy is coming to the USA" (Leonard Cohen, 1992)
If we keep Trump from being reelected, a new democracy wave may come, with safe guards to protect democracy.
I hope the Times writes about the Democracy song, soon.
"Democracy is coming to the USA"
13
@Lee Trump thinks the economy will save him, It hasn't yet. In fact it seem to play no role in peoples politics. People know Trump economy is not that different from Obamas's. These terrific numbers are just a continuation of the Obama economy. We never saw the 3,4 even 6% growth Trump promised, instead we are getting record deficits in a strong economy. Trumpenomics is weakening or ability to response to the next downturn. When it comes the ride will be bumpy.
31
@Lee I certainly agree with you. I only hope we can make some progress in the near future. Four more years of this circus and his policies will not be kind to us common folk.
22
I live in a djt state and feel it best to have many articles of impeachment, especially regarding the Mueller report. The effect of a successful impeachment will be to remove djt and put in an even worse theocrat, pence. I would not be in favor of this.
The value of impeachment is to show the overall criminality of the republican cult. In order to do this effectively, many more offenses have to be high lighted. This sunlight will shine on the darkness of the pro-russian republican cult so that the voters will have a clear choice in 2020.
6
I care.
21
He's a crook, a thief, a liar, a fraud. I just want this done and him thrown out.
14
What everyone thinks who knows the Democrat Follies stink and are baseless, is that Democrats can't put any more lipstick on this pig.
2
At the end of the day it is not about what voters want or what kind of electoral effects it can have. It is about the US Constitution and what it demands of Congress when the president commits an impeachable offense. This just muddies the water further by suggesting that it should be taken into account.
"I'll let you write the substance... and you let me write the procedure, and I'll screw you every time"
- Rep. John Dingell, 1983
2
I agree that the impeachment process will probably not move the needle too much next November. However, I think it is very important to spell out the case in as much detail as possible - with as many impeachable articles that can be substantiated.
We owe it to our future to show how we have let our government slip so easily into chaos and fascism. The fine principles of the constitution are being trampled. This is a turning point in American democracy. The future will judge what went wrong and if we ever chose to let it happen again. I want my young son to grow up with honor and even at 11 he sees the lack of honor displayed by this president and his supporters.
10
It has been said repeatedly that voters are sick and tired of all the investigations. They want to get back to the economy, jobs, health care and infrastructure. So there is fear that the hearings should be dropped and just let Trump do whatever he pleases, and he will.
Voters are not paying attention to the hearings. So? There are vast amounts of information that is superficially contradictory. Folks who work for a living, some with 2 jobs, just don't have time to study the detains of testimony.
BUT, that doesn't mean that people who are tired of hearings will vote for Donald Trump. Voter fatigue is a plague that struck as a direct result of Donald Trump, who was going to "shake things up". He did, with some of us realizing the implications ahead of time and others recognizing the horrible mess now. (Like Never Hillary voters, who may now realize that they got something far, far worse by not voting.)
10
Democrats should discuss with experts the most expedient way to move this to the Senate. Even though it's a foregone conclusion Trump will be acquitted by the Republican controlled Senate, those senators voting to acquit will have to answer to their constituents and Trump will go down in history as only the 3rd president to be impeached, which will haunt him the rest of his life.
3
The problem Democrats have with their impeachment effort is marketing it to the American people. You know they felt they’ve got a problem when they found it necessary to focus-group test how to word it. The focus groups led them to dump the phrase “quid pro quo” and substitute “bribery and extortion.”
There’s just no unambiguous “smoking gun” that anyone can easily grasp.
Also, there’s no attention-grabbing drama. People yammer on and on at the hearings while the outcome is certain: The house will impeach and the Senate will acquit.
It’s boring.
5
Knowing that the cowardly Republican Senate will quickly dismiss any charges and Trump and his base will take that as exoneration and a win, this impeachment is all we have to write history's record on Trump and the dangers he poses to the county and its people.
For the sake of Americans today and the possibility of a 2020 election that throws Trump out, the House's impeachment process should last until as close to the election as possible, covering as much of the president's wrongdoing as possible.
For the sake of posterity and to post a clear warning to future wannabe tyrant presidents, an article of impeachment should be drawn up for every single one of Trump's impeachable offenses, with no free passes for him on any of them.
I see no reason to rush.
6
Trump and his Republican defenders whine incessantly about how the Democrats are just trying to reverse the 2016 election results via impeachment. What rot.
We are on the verge of impeachment only because of Trump's actions since becoming president.
Democrats don't want to be running this inquiry. Nancy Pelosi resisted the calls for impeachment for so long because she understood the political costs.
Democrats would be farther ahead right now if they could be focusing their efforts on healthcare, infrastructure, and jobs instead of this.
As unpleasant as it may be, impeachment seems to be Congress' last resort as Trump keeps pushing the boundaries of presidential conduct beyond what is proper into illegal territory.
7
Tomasky writes that Democrats from swing districts would "just as soon get it over with and get back to talking about prescription drugs." I'm not aware that anyone in Congress has been talking much prescription drugs. This kind of "sarcasm light" is unimpressive.
I agree with the writer. This spectacle is getting old. The overwhelming beligerence of the assault on Trump is beginning to smell as bad as the offenses he is accused of.
4
The impeachment proceedings are an exercise in discovering and stating the facts in relation to the President's alleged criminal behavior.
They are, perhaps more importantly, an exercise in civic responsibility. And civic responsibility entails, among many characteristics, an openness to evidence. We Americans are debating whether we are a nation of knowers or a nation of gullible suckers. That is perhaps the larger context to Trump's July 25th phone call.
That we are upholding the rule of law, in addition to adducing all the relevant facts, that is the lesson for our children. And every syllable of every piece of testimony is worth it.
4
No , they don't.
The know that impeachment is a political process , not a judicial one.
If it comes to impeachable actions, read Meecham "Presidents at War" . Several Presidents, starting with Polks started Wars. in violation of the Constitution.
None was indicted. When you win, you win
P
1
The American people do care. We have already established that a slim majority favor not only impeachment but removal from office.
Obviously, it’s not just Democrats who believe that President Trump should be impeached and removed from office.
Today was a great civics lesson in the House Judiciary Committee.
2
totally. no one cares except those of us that know. please, please, finish this up and find a great candidate to govern this country in 2020
1
Actually, when it comes to those who scorn the laws to further their personal and political interest, the Trump administration is a target rich environment. So while the author may be right about AG Barr, and he may be right about the feckless cult of the GOP, he may not be right in his opinion about getting the hearings over ... too soon.
The necessary next step in this necessary impeachment process is to enforce subpoenas on Mr Mulvaney, Mr Bolton, Mr Giuliani, and Mr Trump for that matter to testify under oath about what Mr Sondland claimed was a group grope directed by the stable genius himself.
Force the Supreme Court to decide whether the law is a higher priority than political cult fealty. Americans have a vested interest in understanding just how foundational the rule of law is in this country.
Mr Trump and his apologists are extortionists. Trump merely has taken GOP art to a different level. Before Trump, republicans cut their teeth by holding the country's credit at risk in an Obama-era government funding dance. With Trump, they endorse foreign meddling in our electoral process. With Trump, they endorse abandoning allies. With Trump, even republicans who have had their families insulted by Trump, squander their dignity to escape his scorn and his base.
So have the SCOTUS weigh in. File the subpoenas and fast track them to SCOTUS. It's time we knew just how close republicans have taken us to Mr Putin's model of oligarchy.
4
Half of the county cares, the other half doesn’t. Trump will be impeached by the house and exonerated by the senate. When all is said and done, Trump will still be president and on his way to reelection.
P.s. What ever happened to Russian collusion?
4
This voter cares because it matters that Congress exercise its oversight power as set forth in the Constitution. The argument that we're close to an election essentially asks Congress to punt its duty to the voters. If that's the case, then essentially Congress has no more oversight power, because you can always make the case that voters can decide at the next election. That's a dangerous precedent on its own. But it's especially troubling in the face of enormous evidence that the President is trying to improperly influence the next election. You can't rely on a process that is being meddled with to determine whether the meddling is okay.
3
It’s not a lynching it’s an impeachment. This takes the development of a a fact based story line of the impeachable offense and the observation of Congressional rules and protocol. This takes time and perseverance. Do it right or don’t bother.
3
Yes, I care about the articles of impeachment. I wish politicians and media would quit speaking for "the American people". We aren't all the same, and no one can speak for me, thanks.
547
@SGB
The “people” spoke when this miscreant was elected. It’s not the House’s job to farm it’s Constitutional responsibility out to the masses.
@SGB Thank you. My feelings exactly.The media's emphasis on "who cares?" Makes me heartsick for America.
@SGB I agree with you. The media is doing what they did during 2016. Making up the news, instead of reporting it. Channel surfing through all the network and cable news broadcasts at the same time will illustrate this point. Except for Faux news, they will always have the same spin on any particular political story. In fact, they will quite often use the same words. It's almost like the news editors get on a conference call at 5:55 p.m. each weekday and agree, yes, today we'll lead with "coveffe."
There's a gigantic unmentioned reason the House Hearings need to go on, indefinitely: members of the Trump cabinet have participated directly in impeachable offenses, and most certainly in their deliberate and pervasive coverup, from the AG to Perry and Pence and Pompeo, not to mention a host of staff in the White House and elsewhere, including Nunes and other Congressmen.
Let's be clear: the Senate won't remove Trump, and the public doesn't care about impeachment. But the public DOES care about corruption, and that should the laser focus of future investigations. Follow the evidence wherever it lays. It is the duty of the Congress to expose the rot in this Administration to the light of day.
Failure to hold government officials accountable now will both permanently reward Trump's cynical abuse of government, destroy our credibility forever around the globe, and encourage every successive generation to exploit power for personal gain, and get away with it.
We need leadership now to stop corruption in American government. Trump has opened the cesspool for business, and populated it with his thugish cronies, with Russia's willing help.
Even if it were possible, simply removing Trump from office will not root out the incredibly wide-spread corruption, or prevent it in future. It must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of Congressional authority.
4
The American Public is morally and ethically bound, to at least take interest in the Impeachment proceedings. Since the outcome of this is likely to end without a real solution, the American Electorate will have to become the last line of defense.
1
I wish more people cared about this as passionately as I do, No one is above the rule of law, and no one should put their personal agenda over the people, and no one should obstruct justice as trump has.
6
This is about far far more than the political implications of 2020.
Trump's impeachment will determine the course of American Democracy indefinitely.
Will we be ruled by a president or a tyrant?
Unfortunately, our deeply flawed Republican Senate will be tasked with the answer to that question...
21
I firmly believe that the actions of this president has been in direct contradiction to his oath. This is beyond partisan fighting or an attempt to undo an election. If we continue to look the other way, we're inviting even worse behavior in the future.
26
If there was a one in a million chance the Senate would approve it, perhaps yes, but as of right now, the answer is an emphatic NO. Time to move on!
3
Swift yes, but if you listened to the questioning by the Democratic counsel it was clear he was seeking justification for three articles of impeachment, Abuse of Power (bribery), Obstruction of Congress (self evident), and Obstruction of Justice (based upon the evidence in the Mueller Report. There would be no delay in proposing these three articles.
24
@Stephen Lightner
Yes. Put the rule of law itself as the question before the senate, and as the question before the voters in November.
Public policy and taxpayer dollars must be directed towards public purposes, not private purposes. The president may not stonewall Congress’ power to investigate.
Sometimes facts are debatable and questions are complex. Government contractors privately benefit from government policy and taxpayer dollars. So do people who receive government benefits. But we trust the purpose of a government contract is to achieve a public purpose and that taxpayers receive fair value for their money. We trust that social security, Medicaid, Medicare, and food stamps help anyone who is similarly situated, and most of us agree those programs achieve public purposes.
Normally the people we elect to public office make the first call as to what’s a public purpose.
But when the president clearly used foreign policy and taxpayer money to pursue a private interest, and clearly stonewalled a house of Congress exercising its powers, then the house, the senate, and the voters must act.
2
Though it is clearly too late, I wish the Democrats had taken the time to let the various court cases run their course. Then if the Supreme Court ordered the administration officials to testify and released records, the American people and Congress would know and act upon the unassailable truth. And the question of executive privilege and immunity would be addressed for future generations. Of course, if the Supreme Court were to uphold the theory of the unitary executive, then are doomed beyond the tenure of Trump.
I care. I think now is the time with the evidence already in plain sight, which Trump provided himself. He directly used his power to ask a foreign government for personal gain. He also has obstructed justice by ignoring Congressional subpoenas. Congress can drag this out forever with more articles of impeachment, but to what gain? Impeach him now. Enough is enough.
18
@TL Time we all reinforced our dedication to cast our ballots in 2020. Vote!
It is mind boggling to me how much press and news analysis exists regarding the political implications of impeachment for the Democrats.
This is absolutely inconsequential. There exists a clearly defined violation of the American Constitution that MUST be prosecuted.
If the hometown favorite athlete is embezzling from his neighbors we don't not prosecute him/her because it would be unpopular to the fans.
Trump said there would be a civil war if he was impeached. There already is one; an attack on the Constitution! This is what should be written about.
202
Nicely said.
Polling continues to show that half of the American electorate wants to see Trump impeached AND removed. Somebody's paying attention. I think that all of us are learning that democracy ain't a spectator sport, and I found today's testimony gripping and enlightening.
145
@teach
The problem is, that is the same half of the electorate that didn't vote for him in the first place. The other half doesn't care which leaves us back at where we started.
3
I'm really getting tired of having to battle over the word "partisan". People who think this is a Republican/Democrat argument are missing the point entirely. In order for this to be a 'partisan" issue we would have to be comparing Republican ideas, ideals or approaches against Democratic ones. That couldn't be further from the case. Republicans, after having abandoned their core principles and beliefs in order to nominate Trump, are now in the process of abandoning our Democracy, our Constitution and our country in order to argue for.....what? Unless blackmailing a foreign power to interfere with our elections has become a core Republican value, then these people are not fighting for a Republican side, they are arguing for an unlimited, all- powerful Executive branch, something they would never argue for if that branch were headed by a Democrat. No this issue isn't R vs D, this is good versus evil. Shouting "partisanship" will not change the facts presented or history's verdict of those who seek to break our laws in order to remain in power.
176
Rick Gage... you're dead point on. I voted libertarian in 2016. this is not partisan. this is about the people who believe in the rule of law and ethical leadership versus those who don't. it's as simple as that. and if all the people who voted democratic line up in the first camp so be it. that's the Republicans problem. I'd note that Katie hall over just an allegation if an affair with a staffer got run out of office yet two Republican congressmen were reelected despite the fact they were accused of serious crime to which they have pled guilty.
55
@Rick Gage The Republicans have been engaged in a slow-moving coup for years. Gerrymandering, voter suppression id laws, Faux New propaganda machine, stealing a Supreme Court seat, stacking the rest of courts, all of these things are aimed at keeping the minority in power. They are not interested in democracy, or law or fairness. They are interested in power and will do and say anything to keep it. Trump with his base and it blind worship are the perfect tool, but not the source of the rot.
51
@WhichyOne You are correct. And, I fear that the Republicans are stalling in order bring the Supreme Court into the fray. They are content that RBG may not have health before, or after, the 2020 election.
The Republicans, headed by the Judiciary and Bill Barr, want to bring the executive branch to a culmination of monarchy. How they will then hold the power should be the nightmare of everyone in this great country.
6
Yes, conspiring to force a foreign government to interfere in our 2020 election is one and obstruction of justice,is another. No need to go beyond that for the impeachment. The House should establish some sort of special committee, however, to investigate and document the list of Trump's crimes against our democratic order. This does not have to preclude carrying on regular business and should not be aimed at an impeachment. It is important to put before the American people and history as complete an account as possible of what this man has done to shred our constitutional order. The documentation (including his income tax returns) could then form the basis for prosecution following his (hopefully soon) departure from the presidential office.
30
Everyone of us will be called upon to decide -- do we stand with Russia or do we stand with America. It cannot be both.
108
@Gone Coastal it would be better to say: do we stand with Putin or do we stand with America? The problem is not Russians generally; they are just as much victims of their authoritarian leader as we are.
1
The Republicans believe this all started in the Obama administration. They seem truly to believe that there were deals upon deals with Russia and Ukraine during the final days of the Obama administration and believe they have enough evidence to show that Trump was trying to find that connection since Biden was Obama's point man in Ukraine matters....and there is the Hunter Biden issue as well. They think that what Trump did was a part of getting to the truth. At least that's what they say they believe.
2
There comes a time when preservation of the rule of law takes precedence over politics. This impeachment is more than just Trump. It is about preserving our republic. Trump has done some terrible things and the case must be made against him. If a large section of the public finds that boring, that is not a reason to not uphold the law.
These proceedings must fully expose all of the serious wrongdoings that have occured. That does not mean we drag this thing out forever. Since overwhelming evidence has been accumulated, three articles should be drawn up, abuse of power, bribery and obstruction. But keep investigating, even if millions would rather watch reality TV.
There are other actors here, some of whom may very well be criminally prosecuted. Those proceedings will have to wait until Trump is gone because William Barr will stop them. But until we get a Attorney General and not a Trump lacky, the Congress can continue to investigate and hand evidence over to the criminal courts.
As far as getting anything else done, forget about it. Mitch McConnell has long since closed the door on that.
291
@Bruce Rozenblit There is another playing field, the so-called court of public opinion. On that field albeit bi-furcated into an us and a them, right and wrong and lies and truth are inputs of potentially equal import. It's theater and theatrics. What's going on that the Dems, as individuals or in toto, don't play that game as well as the Repubs and their leading virile and virulent protagonist?
@Bruce Rozenblit - Agreed; this prez left the House no choice when he picked up the phone the day after Mueller testified, asking Ukraine's prez for 'a favor.'
The current POTUS is like the chronically ill-behaved kid in class who keeps acting up in order to get thrown out; he wears his ejection as a badge of honor.
The House was flipped to Dems in 2018 to rein in this prez, and his misconduct - pretending the House doesn't exist, instead of abiding by its coequal status - left the Dems no choice at all but to defend the Constitution, as they had sworn in their Oaths.
And a Dem prez should never act this way, either.
2
Get it over with! Everyone knows the Senate will not vote to remove from office. Election is eleven months away. By that time this will all be a (hopefully) distant memory in the voters minds.
4
@DonS
Nixon and Clinton are still not distant memories in my mind.
2
I disagree with Tomasky. While it may be true that "everyone knows what Trump did", what remains to be demonstrated is that by doing it, Trump was in effect acting as an agent of a hostile foreign power. If the Democrats do their job correctly, even some Republicans will have trouble swallowing the extent to which Trump is working for Putin.
I say let the hearings take as long as is necessary to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
187
@Vesuviano you're forgetting that the republicans are also working for that same hostile power i.e. Russia.
13
@mzzmo
I actually think the Democrats should start making that point publicly, loudly, and repeatedly. I'd like to see the House Democrats propose a bill that all Congressional Republicans wear Russian flag lapel pins.
3
You need to pay more attention. The articles of impeachment will be drawn up around bribery and obstruction of justice. No one is saying - for the moment - that “trump” is acting as a foreign agent on behalf of a hostile
4
"Everyone knows what Trump did."
In fact, given the coverage on Fox News and conservative radio, I'm guessing that roughly 35% of the country does not know what Trump did (and probably never will).
The case for a swift process remains nonetheless.
378
Yes, but I believe they do know, meaning those Fox watchers. They refuse to see the criminal in front of them. A psychiatrist recently said that his supporters see Trump equal to America.
12
@JDH I watch Bret Baier's news hour pretty regularly and they talk about impeachment and its implications on a daily basis. Granted, you might be talking about the three hour primetime "opinionists" that are Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham. Anyone only getting their news from them are definitely not getting the whole picture, but I could also say that about those who only watch MSNBC, so I guess it's a wash.
1
Fox may be biased, but CNN stands for Clearly Not News. CNN is just Democrats commenting on how bad Trump is, even if what he did was completely insignificant. More people watch NBC and CNN than Fox.
4
Voters, especially those of us who voted for Trump, do not care about the impeachment hearings. And, before you start thinking I am “one of those republicans,” I offer this: I was raised as a Carter Democrat only to fall head first into the country’s love of Bill Clinton. It was an utter disappointment in Obama, fueled by my immigrant father’s decision to not vote on his deathbed for Obama, which turned me away from politics in general. Fast forward a few years and time spent observing what Californication can do to a good state (Oregon), and I switched to voting first for Romney and now, Trump. Throw Nikki Haley in the mix and I would choose her over Hilary any day.
8
Literally every single time someone says, "I'm disillusioned with those presidents I used to love, but ai really love Trump." What I hear is, "Democracy is messy and didn't do exactly what I thought it should, so I'd rather just name someone King.".
Seriously, it has to be the height of intellectual laziness to jump from Clinton to a strongman, especially when the best reasoning you can give is, "I don't like Obama".
36
@Tiffany Not sure why Obama turned you off but one thing that’s true about Obama he was honest and transparent. Trump has abused his power as president and if we don’t hold our leaders to a high moral standard then we open our government up to corruption. People/Trump supporters may not care now but you can be sure they will when our Republic becomes a dictatorship and does things they don’t like.
21
Tiffany--Like so many others in this country, you seem to make critical voting decisions based on your feelings rather than your intellect. Spend time studying the facts rather than relying on your emotions.
16