Why are people hopeful of a 'dawn of democracy' in China? In its long history China has never been democratic, why would people expect it to become so now? When the hierarchs in Beijing talk privately amongst themselves about goings-on in HK they probably say things like, 'This is all an inheritance, a kind of hangover from the unfortunate colonial British period, we'll just have to work our way through it, the residents of HK will have to get over these fantasies; it'll take time and a firm hand'. And, from their point of view, can you imagine trying to govern a nation of 1.5 billion by means of a wholly unfamiliar system? The result would have to be Chaos. When critics complain that Mr. Trump hasn't been pro-active in supporting HK one could reasonably respond that he's just being commonsensical--why stir the pot when the only thing you can achieve is trouble and disorder?
Probably not - as they blamed the USA yet the horse had bolted long before USA passed any legislation to uphold human rights. The Chinese government isn't listening to what the citizens of Hong Kong want; nothing new in nations that end up having civil wars and revolutions - here we go again - just like the French Revolution and other Revolutions where governments haven't listened to what the hoi polloi want.
1
Ok, ok....
like Trump, somehow the pan democrats won, with strong social media skills. But was there a free and fair election, when violence , petro bombs and tear gas were all over the city, and any anti protesters individuals face intimidation and occasionally physical attavks? Free campaigning was virtually impossible.
Nevertheless, still the pro establishment camp secured around 40% of the votes.
Did Trump get help from Russia in the last election? Was there a fair election ?
I find it a bit hypocritical when reading all the wailing and nashing of the teeth about the lack of respect for desires of the people of Hong Kong to acquire a democracy. As someone how has been to Hong Kong over 20 times in the last 30 years it seems to me that desire for a democratic government by the people of Hong Kong is no greater now than it was when they were under British rule, yet there was no outcry for democracy in Hong Kong under British rule.
Most of the oppression the government is using comes under British imposed laws.
The Communist Party of China does not listen, because they have already made up their minds.
1
Beijing doesn't care about Hong Kong. Why should it listen? Hong Kong has it own financial system and most of its assets belong to foreign countries not mainland China. If the rioters burn Hong Kong to the ground it's not Beijing's problem. It's those foreign investors' problem. Why do you think China didn't send in the army to suppress the protests? Its rulers think long term. They're waiting for 2047 so they can pull the plug on all this democracy experiment. That's when the one country two systems principle will expire and that's when the real crackdown will begin. It's up to the pan-democrats to work with Beijing to buy time and not the other way around. If not, they should start looking for passports or apply for assylum. The only signal Beijing is getting from the Hong Kong election is a smoke signal.
Of course Beijing is "listening". That's not the question; the question is: "What will they do about it?".
And, what will we and all so-called democratic nations do about it.
China's influence and power slowly and insidiously spreads, and we seem to shrug.
Wake up World!
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After teaching in China for several years at different universities there and listening to one of my students, a Chinese nationalist, who has lived in Hong Kong the past two years, I am happy HK people stood up for democracy, if that is what they wanted.
Most mainland people I know do not want or need democracy. They are happiest when the government stays out of their lives and provides a stable environment for them to live life they ways they have been doing for thousands of years. Family, food and money mean most to Chinese, and if they can enjoy these, they are happy with the government.
It would be interesting to have a readout on the number of Hong Kong people who oppose the destructive rioting they have had nearly every night the past two months.
In fact, I wonder if the rioting and the vote on democracy are two different things. I suspect many of the young people dressing up for battle every night are bored and disenchanted youths who live in cramped apartments with their extended family and are having the adventure of their lives these days. I was there too in the 60's.
I believe that for a good reason, China has shown its patience toward Hong Kong and the prinicpal onlooker, about which China cares much, much more, Taiwan.
That country reunified with the mainland is by far China's number one diplomatic priority. It seems now, China is resigned to a peaceful, and perhaps a lengthy, reunification.
Hong Kong Voted. Is Beijing Listening?
Why should it ??
Did the US listen when the South voted to leave ?
On January 10, 1862, the Senate voted unanimously to expel Missouri’s two senators, Waldo Johnson and Trusten Polk, for “sympathy with and participation in the rebellion against the Government of the United States."
All out war followed
Why should China act any different? The US is on no position to lecture the PRC
1
Separate but equal doesn't work. Doesn't matter where or under what conditions the concept is applied. I live in hope that other democratic nations will support full independence for HK. Otherwise, I can see the entire island ending up in mainland Chinese "re-education" concentration camps - as is happening right now to tens of thousands of Uighurs.
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The estimate of the experts given here as gospel "the prevailing view among experts is that Beijing is not prepared to risk the international censure it would draw if it attempted a Tiananmen-style crackdown." seems at odds with the documents revealing Chinese policy published by the Times. Xi is quoted as telling his governor to "show no mercy" to the Uighurs and that worthy then followed a policy of "rounding up everyone who should be rounded up" filling prison camps where millions have been "re-educated" under threat of torture and following a policy of taking family hostages to compel cooperation by Chinese expats and exiles. Hong Kong is now surrounded by armed camps with the PLA and the paramilitary Peoples Armed Police units prepared to occupy the City after several months of mobilization and exercises to get ready. It seems more likely that Xi cannot afford any successful challenge to his power. The release of top secret documents by what must be internal opposition indicates there is currently a power struggle under the surface and historically that means a crackdown by Xi is coming.
2
What a moment in history we are witnessing as Hong Kong revives the sentiment, and citizen power, of those brave Chinese who occupied Tienamen Square a generation ago. "Red" China is communist in name only, having plunged headlong into free market capitalism. The CCP retains, however, complete control of the reins of power, which makes China an oligarchy at best, and with Xi's consolidation of control in his hands, a near dictatorship. Democracy has never been tried in this ancient, proud, and resilient country, but all indications are that it is a sentiment that refuses to die.
I would like to say that the US stands ready to aid the emerging ambitions of the Chinese people, and bemoan the fact that we have an incompetent fool currently in the White House, but I can't. The incompetent fool part is correct, but there is actually very little that we can do to aid the democratization efforts now underway in China. In fact, what aid we can give has already been given. I'm referring to American leadership at its best, when we lead by example. Perhaps our last, best example would be to turn out our aforementioned village idiot at the ballot box next year. It is how, in theory, democracies deal with bad government. They get replaced.
China's problems with democracy will not be resolved anytime soon, so there is probably still time for one more sterling example of how a democracy deals with its problems. It even has a date- November 3, 2020.
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The message is clear: Hong Kong is ready for direct elections of Legco members and its CEO.
Hong Kong is part of China and there is no way that Hong Kong can be independent. They never have democracy under the British and kept their mouths shut. Is just part of America’s plan to cause trouble against the countries or governments it perceives as enemies.
No one will listen and why should Chinese authorities ? What is the population going to do shoot arrows at tanks ? This is the reason our founding fathers gave us the 2nd amendment to protect us from our own government, unfortunately for Hong Kong they have no such freedom look no further than Chinas reaction in 1989.
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A few hundred years ago, tea was thrown overboard. During the construction of the Berlin Wall, there was an airlift. Followed by Korea, Vietnam. Now what, surrender all of our values, and forget all those who sacrificed. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Freedom is an inalienable right!!!
1
Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our time!
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@NorthernVirginia
Liberate Puerto Rico and Guam, long live the democratic will of the people!
2
While the Communist Party in China has become a total sham - a shallow justification for just another autocratic dictatorship - it is still based upon, and indeed depends upon the fundamental denial of personal rights and freedoms.
If Beijing allows the demonstrators and voters of Hong Kong to shape its policy, including the removal of Lam, then it will open the door to other groups desiring changes in policy and Party control.
So, it will be very unlikely that Beijing will capitulate in any way. Trump only cares about re-election, and he needs some kind of deal - any deal with China for "Phase one", so he can declare victory, get sanctions against his supporters in farmland removed, and show he can get a deal done. Xi knows this well and will not be concerned about pressure from the US about Hong Kong. Trump will spike the legislation from Congress and move on to his second term.
The people of Hong Kong - they better wise up to the reality of living in a dictatorship.
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Are young Americans listening? Hong Kong is a perfect example of the difference they could make come next November.
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I support and admire the freedom-loving people of Hong Kong, and I wish them well. At the same time, if I were living there, I might think about emigrating to a safer place.
Sooner or later, non-Chinese financial institutions will be moving their Asian operations to safer places to protect their investments and their employees.
China has an imprimatur to take over HK in 2047, but, if events proceed as they are, this will be brought forward. Do not fool yourselves into believing that all the 'pro democracy' rebels are innocents fighting for a nobel cause. You don't set fire to someone because they are trying to stop your destruction of your shop; you don't post pictures on social media of some traffic cop who tried to stop 4 'activists' from stealing his gun; nor do you identify who his daughter are and where they go to school; nor do you make Molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices. OK , protect democracy; but there is a lot more going on than that. Where is the investigative journalism discovering who is behind these atrocities/
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I hope the pro-democracy movement will seep into the mainland and the Chinese people begin to realize the power they have, based on sheer numbers, but have never employed.
We should be inspired by the HK vote. They have carried out a model power movement. They are young and determined. We Americans, grandchildren of 1776, should learn from them.
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The camps in Xinjiang are full of non-Han people who crossed the government. Tibet is colonized and controlled by Han.
Get real! In 2020 China will totally control Hong Kong. There is a history of destruction for non-compliance in China.
1
Stop right there. "But independence has not been among the protesters’ demands, ..." It is all but declared when rioters wave USA and UK flags on the streets of Hong Kong.
It's ludicrous to assert that Beijing is not listening. Beijing resisted the lure of the violent thugs to send troops into Hong Kong so that they can claim a repeat of Tienanmen. Beijing listens.
The Brits have demonstrated how adroit they are, always lay some minefields before they give up colonies. The One Country Two System is a mine field, with the Judicial system at odds with Law Enforcement, and the Education system served as a brainwashing machine to turn Hong Kong people into a bunch of cult followers. Christian churches which dominate the schools systems from K-12 to colleges in Hong Kong were part of the colonization force and continue to exert influence in Hong Kong today. It was a mistake on Beijing's part not to deal with these issues sooner.
The real problem is Hong Kong people's identity crises that evolved since 1997, driven by ideology and beliefs. Former refugees from in Chinese & Vietnamese "Communism" propagate hatred. Old hatred was passed from one generation to the next. Undoing the brainwashing will take a long time.
There is no trace of communism in China today but in the name of the party only. Hong Kong people just could not see pass the democracy slogan. Look at US democracy that elected Trump. Look at Brexit. That's democracy.
Beijing knows more about what's going on in Hong Kong than people who live there. This movement is powerful and determined and riddled with spies. The movement has many good things but lacks any counterintelligence. Beijing's spies are running rampant in Hong Kong. Half a dozen other countries have spies embedded in the movement as well. There will be no secrets about what happens in Hong Kong. Everyone will know what and why and how it happened. Buckle-up.
It is very ironic to see that it takes a long process for the Congress to pass bills regarding domestic issues. Yet so effectively when it is related to foreign issues - this should really give you a sense of what with is the underlying motives of Washington.
So let us make this clear: the congressmen/women in Washington does not care about the ‘democratic aspirations” in Hong Kong. What they REALLY care is the self-interest of the U.S. In other words, what the country can benefit from the protest and the “chaotic” happing in Hong Kong. Because Washington now can use the current protests in Hong Kong to leverage themself on the trade negotiations, and they see it as an opportunity that they should, as its all cost, prevent China from becoming a superpower like the U.S. 
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Should China be commenting on 112,000 children in NYC public schools being homeless, or the fact children are not guaranteed medical or dental care, or our President parsons convicted military personal. Seems like the US has a full slate of problems on its own.
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@Gary Cohen Sure. There are Americans already doing so, although not enough. I highly doubt any US official would deny the problem exists, or that it needs to be addressed. Having said that you certainly won't hear the blame for the problem put on mysterious, unproven 'foreign forces', although some would shamefully blame new immigrants. That's one of the main political (existential, really) differences between our countries - we don't as a general rule deny regular citizens, or other governments, their right and freedom to criticize us. They'll never match our own endless self-analysis and criticism, so you and your fellow CCP admirers can have at it yourself regarding homelessness. guns, no problem! On some, or even many of our issues, you probably wouldn't get much disagreement.
@Gary Cohen Sure. There are Americans already doing so, although not enough. I highly doubt any US official would deny the problems exists, or that they needs to be addressed. One of the main political (existential, really) differences between our countries is that we don't as a general rule deny regular citizens, or other governments, their right and freedom to criticize us (Russia sure does. They'll never match our own endless self-analysis and criticism, so you and your fellow CCP admirers can have at it yourself regarding homelessness. guns, impeachment, whatever! On some, or even many of our issues, you probably wouldn't get much disagreement.
I wonder how many mainland Chinese know how successful citizens of Hong Kong were in their fight for what freedom they still had??
Ideas spread, and Xi knows it. What's next, if it spreads to the mainland?
From the editorial: "but the main significance was that China’s Communist leaders could no longer believe, or claim, that the demonstrations were the work of hooligans directed from abroad."
Is this what Beijing believes? I doubt it. Beijing sees the Hong Kong protests as a move towards separatism (independence) from a province whose people do not consider themselves to be part of China, and who refuse to speak the national language. The vote says nothing to Beijing that they don't already know.
The election result also does not disprove that "the demonstrations were the work of hooligans directed from abroad". By what logic does the voting result support this. There probably IS some influence from abroad. It's hard to imagine the CIA not seeing this as their job. Beijing knows that there is some foreign influence, but they also know that the discontent comes mainly from the people, people who want a Hong Kong that is independent of the CCP.
The election results told Beijing nothing that they don't already know, and I don't understand why the editorial board thinks otherwise.
2
Can someone, anyone, show a country where 'spontaneous' public outcry for democracy has actually resulted in a peaceful, prosperous and stable government?
I myself considered America and Australia and these seem to be identifiable only due to colonies distance from the establishing authority. AND low population. Otherwise it appears to be a red herring. Europe as a whole dressed itself in democracy while rebuilding the infrastructure and population. Romania appears to be saying No, Thank You, to the current media over wash.
It doesn’t matter. Xi Jinping’s regime will still sing that merry tune. It will claim that it’s a foreign counterrevolutionary plot that must be defeated to preserve the fruits of the 1949 Revolution (the enormous wealth that it enjoys especially).
And then it will crush all resistance in Hong Kong.
1
This election shows that democracy in HK is robust and that SAR governance is stable--despite 24 weeks of some of the worst rioting that the city has seen in half a century. That is deeply at odds with the characterization and denunciations of "police state" and "fascist dictatorship" of the protestors.
Because of the "first past the vote" system here, the outcomes of this election are less impressive than claimed. It essentially shows that as an electorate, 42% are still solid, immovable supporters of the establishment--despite threats, intimidation, demonization, beatings, attempted assassination of candidates, and obstructions to campaigning and voting.
Note also, only 13% of the 1090 candidates actually listed the anti-establishment protestor's "five demands" as part of their official platform--despite the protestors' claims that this was a universal demand. That fact signals that many candidates did not think that they could be elected on a pro-protest platform. That challenges the received story that this was some sort of definitive referendum on the protests.
Lastly, the irony is that the elected anti-establishment candidates, as district councilors, will now be tasked with the arduous, messy task of cleaning up the arson, sabotage, destruction, and chaos on the streets and businesses that some of them were so happy to celebrate and support.
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@ACH: Love your last paragraph. Maybe now they will understand what they have done.
4
@ACH A Chinese communist at Berkeley? Say it isn’t so!
4
@ACH
A lot of people I know voted for pan-Dems because they blame pro-Beijing for starting it in the first place, not because they support the tactics. If anything it shows that the protests does not have as much popular support as claimed because the pro-Beijing voters are undoubtedly against it while only some of the pan-Dem voters may support it.
The bigger worry for Beijing is not necessarily the results itself, but that the demographics of its supporters skew towards the older generation who have actually experienced British colonialism (which in itself is ironic, given all the flag waving).
8
What gets lost in all this is the tremendous opportunity the one country two systems concept still holds for China and HK.
China remains open to evolution of their governance system. Experimenting with direct representation in HK is of a piece with satellite projects like Deng's 1978 opening Shenzhen up to capitalism. Under HK's basic law back in 2007 there was an opportunity for universal suffrage for the HK Chief Executive/legislature but disputes over demands by Beijing to be able to vet the candidates to ensure their were no separatists derailed the process. A clear example of perfection being the enemy of the good. That deal looks pretty good now and should still be sought. In this HK is not just serving its own interests it is also serving as an important example of how mainland China's governance can evolve and acting as a signal to Taiwan that it can rejoin the mainland retaining its system. This is all as was intended by the architects of the "two systems" approach. As such this evolution in governance is not something Beijing "fears" it's part of the envisaged process. Like Shenzhen and capitalism if HK and democracy work the engineers that run China's political system will try it elsewhere. For success on this front what has to be ensured is the perception that the HK's push for greater democracy is driven by a desire for better governance not separatism or atavistic Cantonese nativism. Calm Beijing on these fronts and the 2007 deal and more are attainable.
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@Belasco I hope that such a scenario is possible. I wonder, though, whether China is stuck with a president-for-life and the usual rotting governance that goes with such a regime.
7
Lol, Taiwan is never going to be ruled by the CCP short of violent lose-lose war.
Lol, I can't say I agree with your Taiwan geopolitical analysis Hunter. Check what the Taiwanese people themselves say. Polling data from 2019 shows "A solid majority (57 percent) continues to support conducting cross-strait relations under the “one China, different interpretations” formula" And as regards a "war" or even "cross straits conflict" both a 2017 and 2019 poll "found that a plurality (almost 45 percent) plan to “leave the country,” “unhappily accept the situation,” “hide” or “choose to surrender” if there is war. Furthermore, each poll shows that 23 percent “don’t know” how they might respond." China is patient and playing the long game with Taiwan. There will be no war.
See 2019 Taiwan National Security Survey (TNSS) summary at the National Interest website.https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-latest-opinion-polls-say-about-taiwan-46187
2
First the HKSAR Government did not listen to the private concerns as to how detrimental pushing the extradition bill would be. Then they ignored the public concerns. When folks took to the streets, their answer was to send in the police with tear gas and pepper spray. As time went on, the police kept escalating when some protestors, in a very asymmetric engagement, tried to push back.
Even recently, Mathew Cheung, the Chief Secretary (i.e. number two in the hierarchy) said that the reason for the anger of Hong Kong was not known. The PRC Government claimed that there was a silent majority waiting to be heard above the din.
Now the District Council elections in Hong Kong have been held. This is the most open democratic official poll organized and run by the government in all of China. There is no silent majority, only a very big and loud one!
And as to quieting the chaos initiated and maintained by the HKSAR Government, all one has to do is look to the intersections with damaged traffic lights along Nathan Road in Hong Kong. Do you see any policemen or trained volunteers such as the Boy Scouts directing traffic? No.
The police are instead still engaged in surrounding the Hong Kong Polytechnic University (PolyU), where I taught for many years, hoping to grab holdout students a whole week since the "Battle of PolyU" has ended. This is so sad.
Will power ever get around to listening to the truth?
27
"It was a clear signal to Beijing that the protests are not a foreign plot."
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That doesn't matter much when we come right down to it. China's 1.5 billion people, who have been subject to the massive state propaganda machine their whole lives, are the only ones Beijing needs to believe free countries are the bad guys. And, as we all know, legitimate news sources, like the Times, are banned there.
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China's mouthpieces say the most fantastical things, horrible things about free countries and the US in particular. They pretty much lie continually, which is a necessity because their basis for governing was never honest. Unfortunately, the US now has a president who does close to the same. He's nowhere near the CCP in true evil, but his looseness with the truth has diminished the moral high ground we have held against totalitarian governments since 1917. It's a bad bad thing and our next president will have to do a lot to recover our leadership around the world.
56
China has many flaws, but is the US really in a position to preach to Beijing?
In all honesty, would "six months of increasingly disruptive and violent demonstrations" be entertained in any major metropolis in the US? What happened to students at Kent State protesting the Vietnam War draft? They were shot by the National Guard despite peaceful protest. When rioting occurred in Ferguson, the National Guard was called in too.
In contrast, despite six months of often violent protests (riots by definition), China never called in its military against the civilian protesters the way the US did at Kent State. There is debate about whether the police response has been excessive, but please understand that mainland Chinese were targeted for a fact by a section of the Hong Kong protesters since early on in the protest movement. While I do not agree with Beijing on many issues, I do believe that when a protest ceases to be peaceful, it is no longer a protest by definition. It becomes a riot effectively from that point for violence has been used. 3 people (last I checked) were killed over six months. More are killed each week in police violence in the US. This is just food for thought...
Also, "One Country, Two Systems" has been upheld since1997. Local elections weren't held just to give in to Hong Kongers. They've always been guaranteed under the framework agreed to in 1997. The right to local elections in HK has been upheld by Jiang Zhemin, Hu Jintao and now Xi Jinping.
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@Jack
You don't need to go back to Kent State and Vietnam. Most Americans never heard about it but what happened to native protesters at Standing Rock just a few years ago when the National Guard was called out to squelch environmental protests was pretty abhorrent. Another comparable is what is happeningin Chile right now. So far over 20 dead and 250 blinded by security forces firing "pellets" eye level into the crowds. But minute to minute coverage of what is happening in Chile does not serve US geopolitical interests so like Standing Rock its not covered much at all.
15
Oh for Pete's sake. If you are going to mention Kent State, you should also mention Tiananmen, which was much much worse.
18
@Jack: Amazed that none of the protesters seem to realize this. They are very lucky to have the Hong Kong police. In any other country, they would all be dead.
6
Of course they're listening, and the outcome is predictable.
Remember, these were just elections for district councils. It is an excellent tactic by the Chinese to appease the protesters and take some steam out of their protests, which are really hard to maintain.
Only half of Hong Kong's 70 person legislative council are elected by the people. The other half are chosen by "functional constituencies".
According to Article 45 of the Hong Kong Basic Law:
"The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election OR through consultations held locally and be APPOINTED BY THE CENTRAL PEOPLE'S GOVERNMENT.
"The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress."
At this point, it seems unlikely that the next Chief Executive will be chosen by a general election.
Hong Kong is part of China. Should we force our form of government on a sovereign nation (by passing HR 3289), we would be guilty of something worse than what people think Russia did in our last Presidential election.
4
@Raz
"Forcing our form of government" on Hong Kong is not what the issue is about. It's about Beijing not keeping its commitments made in the Sino-British Joint Declaration and Basic Law, which they have already said they won't keep.
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You've left out reference to universal suffrage in your excerpt, which is in the Basic Law and which Beijing declared dead in 2014 by saying only CE candidates whom they approve can contest for that office. There's no way that's real universal suffrage.
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And the entire separate legal system of One Country, Two Systems would have been demolished by this year's extradition bill.
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We're not the bad guys here. The bad guys are very clearly the subject of this editorial.
26
@Raz Should the U.S.A. stand with a Communist country that takes advantage of a capitalist system? I think their system would fall if the rest of the world was not financing it. The rest of the world has increased the standard of living for most of the people in China. Hong Kong knows democracy and the dictator in China does not like it. China needs our food, they can not produce enough to feed its own people.
The myth that is being propagated here is that Beijing really cares what Hong Kongers think about their future... They don't!
China is not all Chinese as viewed in the west. It contains many minorities that would clamor for autonomy ala 1991 soviet style if Hong Kong was allowed to go it own way. Also China’s incessant bullying of Taiwan would lose its impact when the giant red dragon is falling apart. The quandaries of a dictatorship, tsk tsk. One day this entire planets people will
Know true freedom and democracy, just not yet
How many HK adults voted for 'democracy candidates' in the hope that their election would pacify the violent youth, returning to peaceful citizens Hong Kong's mass transit, streets and shopping malls?
1
What Beijing needs to "listen" to is how the US does things. China is hopelessly behind. The brilliance of Democracy is that it can be wielded to legitimize what the ruling elite want. The key is to carefully sow fear and to represent your policies as the route to safety. This includes things like locking up undesirable minority groups. Build internment camps and you look fascist. People call you evil, etc. But, build prisons, get those very minority groups to vote for more law and order, and a little selective enforcement and voila, by 2014, 2.3 million blacks in prison( blacks comprise about 12% of the US population, but 34% of its' prison population). Yes, it takes a little more work, but make people afraid, then offer them a way out and you can have Democracy working for you as well.
1
My question: is the rest of Hong Kong listening? Those who voted pro-China (i.e. anti-democracy) must surely appreciate the irony that they will have no chance to vote for or against anything in a communist régime.
1
Oh, but they already knew that the protests are not a foreign plot.
It’s just that China is THE Orwellian State come true.
They lie to everyone. Because lying has been fruitful to advance their agenda. They lie to their citizens and to the world every day. And naive or follow-the-money nations either believe the lies or just look somewhere else
Three hundred millions out of poverty in twenty years.
Please give credit where credit is due. During the six months of protest in Hong Kong only two deaths were reported, despite the protestors' daily violence and vandalism unleashed at everything and anything, including public and private property and innocent people. This is unprecedented and perhaps even too lenient, as maintaning law and order should be the riding concern for security forces. During those six months, protesters in Chile, Bolivia, Gaza, Iraq, Egypt and many other countries were killed by the dozens or hundreds, mostly in the course of one or few demonstrations, and sometimes without engaging in the kind of mindless violent destruction we saw in Hong Kong. It is mind boggling that the NYT editorial completely ignores this facts and seems to give credence to the the protesters' demand that the HK police should be investigated for brutality!
Being "pro-democracy" doesn't give license to block roads, hurl bricks and fire-bombs at police, smash businesses, torch metro stations, prevent people from flying, runover police with vehicles, vandalize shopping malls, and intimidate and terrorize other HK citizens who happen to think differently or speak a different Chinese dialect. This is not democracy or freedom. And it is a crule mockery of democracy if these are the same people who ran and voted in the elections as pro-democracy forces.
3
Just as a side note—why do we continue to refer to China and its leaders as communists, when it’s governance and organization are decidedly top down and pro-capitalist?
1
It is not so much about foreign plot that is the issue, but rather biased and selective coverage by mainstream western media, including NYT and Guardian, that is feeding the conflict. By underplaying the widespread vandalism, the targeting of dissenters that resulted in some of the most violent acts such as setting an anti-protestor on fire, and by ignoring the fact that the majority of the peaceful protestors interviewed refuse to condemn the violence of the radical protestors, NYT is feeding the conflict rather than helping to resolve it. In the broader context of increasing US-China tensions, such biased coverage serves as propaganda on its own, just more subtle than the crude propaganda of the communist party.
Chinese Govt needs to become more flexible and address HK public’s demands. On the flip side, which NYT Journalists have chosen to ignore, is that HK protestors need to be able to compromise as well. Insisting on investigations of police violence only without investigating protester conduct is never going to fly. Amnesty for all protestors are also unacceptable, because some committed violent acts that cannot be excused, such as slashing the neck of a police officer. There is no chance that China will grant HK universal suffrage as long as HK does not implement national security laws to protect China’s security and sovereignty. All these require deliberations and compromises. Unfortunately, NYT has only been building a black vs white narrative in its coverage.
3
"Hong Kong Voted. Is Beijing Listening?" Are you kidding, Editorial Board? Of course they're listening. The only question is how and when Xi will crush all dissent in Hong Kong?
2
Hong Kong Voted.
I am sure that Beijing listened, and heard. The rulers in Beijing are now surely convinced that the protests are not a foreign plot. The protests obviously have the overwhelming support of the people of Hong Kong.
If the protests had been largely a foreign plot, Beijing could patiently expose and defeat the plot. I think that the Chinese Communist Party now realizes that their only option to preserve their power is to impose terror, massacring tens of thousands of Hong Kong residents. Beijing will wait for an opportune moment, then the mass killings will begin.
You didn't expect China to let the people of Hong Kong go on to greater victories and infect the rest of the country with freedom and democracy, did you? And nobody's dumb enough to believe that it's because of Trump that China will stay its hand.
1
Local government in Hong Kong can't pass laws like our local governments do in Democracies, but it is a step forward. The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
If China is blaming the USA then they're worried and starting to sound like all those Muslim nations like Iraq etc that blames USA for all their problems of their own making.
You can't have two systems; you're either a Democracy or a Communist nation.
If communism is such a strong system then the Chinese government has nothing to worry about by letting the Hong Kong citizens vote on changing into a Democratic Republic of Hong Kong. Throughout history all communist nations have become Democracies; you never read about Democracies becoming Communist nations. One day China will become a Democracy because they are a capitalist society and they educate their citizens and send them aboard to get a democratic education so they have already started the process.
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On the positive side; because the Chinese communist government sent all those communist China troops into Hong Kong to quell the protests, riots or sit ins, or whatever they're called, these military /police from China, will get to see how life is better in democracies and the imported cops and militia from China will be able to get better access to freedom of speech on Hong Kong computers and will take all their new information and knowledge back to China and spread the word.
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In a democratic society, one cannot justify using violence or any unlawful means to win an election or get desired result. Otherwise, Richard Nixon would still be the president and Watergate was just a case of using illegal means to reach the goal.
Beijing government will listen and watch carefully. They are watching who has provided the financial and logistic support to HK mobsters & rioters. They are listening to foreign voices commenting on the violence of HK. They are learning who are real friends and who are foe.
As long as HK's Basic Law remains intact and not broken, Beijing will let HK government to decide what to do. After all, HK so far serves as a failed experiment of democracy. Over one billion of mainland Chinese with the help of local and national news medium are learning democracy and capitalism using HK's disaster. How to keep HK democracy alive will be a tall order with or without Beijing's help.
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@Usok
You start you comment with: "In a democratic society, one cannot justify..."
The whole point is China is NOT a democratic society and the people of HK are fighting FOR democracy.
Throughout history, democracies arose when the people overthrew the non-democratic government. And because non-democracies hold onto their power with violence and unlawful means, it often requires a violent uprising for the success of the democratic revolution.
Therefore, one can certainly justify violence in the present situation.
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I am sure Beijing is hearing and following what is happening in Hong Kong but is it listening? It has no choice especially if it means there will be law and order and a peaceful transition to autonomy and democracy for Hong Kong. The protests were never about breaking up from China or overturning China's claim over Hong Kong. The protests were never a foreign plot. Trump played his cards very well by showing restrain and not exploiting the 2019 summer of discontent in Hong Kong to encourage the protesters to break away from China.
Behind the scenes, Trump without interfering in Chinese affairs told China to not use its 2 million man army to crush the protesters in Hong Kong to a pulp. The dividends of the diplomacy and good current working relations between China and the USA has borne fruit.
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China has too many fingers in too may pies and will end up like the Roman Empire and that will be its downfall. The peasants will revolt and there are lots of them to do so when they hear back from travellers, tourists, and word of mouth, what democratic rule is like. The Chinese government actually is progressing towards democratic rule by educating the public and letting them travel abroad. Knowledge is power and all the Chinese citizens that travel overseas will report back to citizens about what they've read about their country and government on computers in foreign nations. The Chinese government can only control their citizens minds when their citizens are inside their communist nation; not so when they travel abroad.
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They already know that China will be the first country in the world. Chinese are going everywhere and showing the rest of the world their new affluence.
Trump is going to lose his trade war. China is more capable than the Trump administration. But if Trump rejects the Senate resolution, then we not only lose the trade war, we lose what we -- America -- stands for.
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Is Beijing listening? Is Trump listening? Are the Russians listening? 70% of the population voting and pro-democracy landslides as a result. Americans should sit up and recognize that voting does mean something. But you have to be in it to win it. So take the time America. Register if you aren't already. And go out and vote in the primaries and the general election. Imagine what things would look like if 70% of Americans voted. If Republicans were running the show in Hong Kong, many of those who just voted would have not been allowed to. Or they would be accused of fraud. I'm surprised the Republicans haven't been hired by the Chinese as consultants to help suppress the vote. And you think Hong Kong has a problem with democracy? Try Georgia or Alabama.
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For readers who are less familiar with the Sino-British joint declarations and the Basic Law of Hong Kong, the issue at hand is that the Chinese Communist government had promised full universal suffrage (or full democracy) for Hong Kong by 2007. The Beijing government has been moving the goal posts every time the demand for democratic reform was tabled. They finally put in some draconian measures in 2014 to essentially stifle any chance of Hong Kong people to pick their own chief executive. Normal Hong Kong people do not want independence. We simply ask Beijing to keep her promises.
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@Chan could not agree with you more. HK is extraordinarily important to the free world. Despite Xi’s apparent fear of everything outside his “great fire wall”, it’s the path in the Chinese citizen’s best interest.
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@Chan The problem in HK's system comes from British design. Contrary to the mythologizing of the HK as a democratic paradise under British rule, it was brutal colonial apartheid state. At one point, the city agency tasked with cleaning municipal toilets was permitted to hold elections. Highly restricted--eligibility to vote required salaried professional status or higher educational credentials--only 2 % bothered to vote.
Later, Tory factotum Chris Patten, incapable of winning an election in a tiny British district (40,000 voters), was awarded Governorship of Hong Kong, wielding control over the lives of 6 Million non-voting "asiatics": white colonial privilege writ large.
Towards the end, as the handover approached, the British discovered religion and started "democratic reforms". A faux-democratic system was designed to preserve the power of British multinationals past the handover date. Thus the bizarre system of "functional constituencies": commercial, trade, and industry groups--including British multinationals--directly represented in the electoral system. The enduring power of this system is clear: the most unequal city in the OECD, 20% poverty.
When the NPSC proposed universal suffrage, the corporate class represented by the PanDems rejected it, making it default back to the legacy system.
The rot at the heart of the system is the enduring privilege and entitlements of Capital and Empire--and its compradors--not the "encroachments" or blunders of the PRC.
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It's utterly discouraging that hours after this editorial came online, there are fewer than two dozen comments, which one could guess means few Times readers are that interested in events in Hong Kong.
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What's happening in Hong Kong is arguably the most important geopolitical event of the post-Soviet era, and Americans are wrapped up demolishing ourselves in a partisan hatefest like we've not seen since the Civil War. Instead of organizing concerted global pressure on Beijing, a massive totalitarian government, we're ripping ourselves to smithereens.
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God help us all.
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@West Coaster -
Basically, because it’s hopeless. China could swallow Hong Kong in one bite. Their problem then becomes digesting it.
Sorry to say, well-placed fears of indigestion might be HK’s trump card, the only power staying Xi’s hand.
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Before reading the piece, let me just answer that the answer to the question is an unqualified "YES!". And they're also using facial recognition and working on lip reading technology. The better question is: When aren't they listening?
Now I will read the editorial.
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I support HK independence 100%, but taking a step back, it seems that after all these months of chaos, only two people have died and China seems to have allowed elections to happen without any tampering.
I know we are supposed to hate on China for geopolitical reasons (and in many cases, especially the situation in Xinjiang, they absolutely deserve criticism), but honestly Beijing seems to have handled this whole situation pretty well. More people have died in a day in various other protests going on right now (Chile, Bolivia, etc.) than have died in Hong Kong in many months, but the NYT seems disinterested in reporting those stories.
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@Cal The District Council elections are heavily tampered in Hong Kong and is a well known facts. They use various means, such as "vote planting", intimidations, and outright wheeling semi-comatosed elderlies in nursing homes to cast votes. It is a well-oiled machine and pro-Beijing parties usually got >80% of the seats. In this round, they have calculated the number of "iron votes" to be around 1.2 millions. They thought they would win. However, the huge turnout of over 70% of the registered voters essentially turned the table against them. The other major reason why Beijing did not interfere is the impending signing of the "Hong Kong human rights and democracy Act" by the US. This really stops HK and the Chinese governments from acting badly. Even the police are nicer these days! HKers are really thankful for what the American house and senate have done.
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@Chan
Add oil, Chan. I first saw posters asking Congress to pass the HK bill in Tamar Park during the Sep 2 strike. I was surprised at the wide support it had among Hongkongers.
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Keep the faith, free people everywhere are walking beside you.
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@Cal Thank you for pointing out the elephant in the room. The demand by the protesters (repeated here by the NYT as a credible one) to investigate "police brutality" and the editorial claim that "police measures against demonstrators have become increasingly severe" are quite puzzling and sound like cheap propaganda. Those who watched the protests in HK for months know that unlike many other protests in the world, the police were extremely restrained while the protestors were getting increasingly violent, including several attacks to kill anti-riot police officers. It is disgraceful that this simple and compelling fact doesn't get mentioned in this editorial at all.
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Why does no one talk or write about this?
I think the Hong Kong protests will end badly--and sooner rather than later. But even if those who risk everything for democracy get a face-saving compromise from a dictator who becomes more anti-democratic every year, Hong Kong's "special status" runs out in 2047, and we're almost half-way there.
What then?
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@bnyc
You're right. There is the concern about what the movement will do when we get to 2047.
But, the biggest question is whether the regime will last until 2047.
Keep in mind that both White South Africa and the USSR seemed set to last forever, just as the PRC seems today.
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It is naive to think that elections matter to China. They will be tightening the leash on Hong Kong. China cannot afford not to do so.
China is an autocracy. It has the means and will to crush ANY dissent if it so desires. China cares little about what the rest of the world thinks. Maintaining control of its population is all that counts. They are will on their way towards Huxley's 'Scientific Dictatorship' where the people embrace their servitude. Orwell's 1984 waits for those that do not.
The truth is that the surveillance state and controls over a antion's citizens are advancing far faster than democracy and individual rights. If anything the latter two are losing ground they once occupied.
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@cynicalskeptic
Your conception of China is akin to that of someone who has only ever ventured to Chinatown... Try reading a non-Western perspective at least once while on this earth
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The vote in HK undoubtedly set off alarm bells in Beijing. But, that's only because the CCP is so brittle that it can't tolerate any dissent and it is afraid that other parts of China will get ideas about dissent.
The likely reaction of the Carrie Lam is likely to be to cancel the LegCo elections next year and then send in more thugs from the Triad.
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The agreement between Britan and China last 50 years and it is about halfway through. What will happen when the agreement ends are anybody guesses and it is largely at the discretion of China. The Hong Kong Human Rights acts stipulate the return of the current trade war which the US is trying to resolve. The legislation is cheap at the stroke of a pen. The US needs to back up her promise with their military might not just words In addition, the US can grant 3 million immigration exit visas, should the mainland invade. The agreement between Britan and China last 50 years and there are about halfway through. What will happen when the agreement ends are anybody guesses and it is largely at the discretion of China. The Hong Kong Human Rights acts are toothless; it stipulates the return of the current trade war which the US is trying to resolve now The legislation is cheap at the stroke of a pen. The US needs to back up her promise with its military might not just words. Also, the US can grant 3 million immigration exit visas, should the mainland invade.
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"Hong Kong Voted. Is Beijing Listening?"
Beijing is always listening.
Signals are also interpreted differently.
The Editorial Board of the NYT has one interpretation (perhaps the correct one). Rest assured though that Beijing will interpret the signals differently.
I doubt that their interpretation is influenced much by the NYT.
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I don't believe they're required to listen. Or has Hong Kong somehow voted in any way that requires the government of China to listen?
The answer to that question is no.
Hong Kong is a province of China. China is not a province of Hong Kong.
The sooner Hong Kong is brought to heel and the miscreants death with the better.
And make no mistake about it, Taiwan is next to have its leash significantly shortened.
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@Raven
Taiwan is not on a leash. Despite your Beijing master’s bullying of most of the world into pretending otherwise, it is a sovereign independent nation, not a province of China. The Beijing government enforces no laws, holds no courts, controls no borders, and selects no officials in Taiwan.
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@Raven Except the "miscreants" you describe are most of the population of Hong Kong, so how would you propose to deal with all of them?
Given the tone of your message, perhaps you would support establishing some re-education camps - the plans are readily available from Beijing.
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The District Councils must now immediately schedule, and follow through with, a referendum on the future course of Hong Kong. Let the people decide!
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@Celeste
Hold on. Why not hold a referendum for Puerto Rico then, and let Puerto Ricans decide? Do you know how many uprisings Puerto Rico has had historically?
It's funny how an extradition treaty between the Mainland and HK has been subject to so much scrutiny. Puerto Rican independence figures like Blanca Canales were sent to federal prison camps on the US mainland without any extradition treaty in place.
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@Jack
Your entire premise is mistaken.
There have been five referendums held in Puerto Rico:
Puerto Rican status referendum, 1967
Puerto Rican status referendum, 1993
Puerto Rican status referendum, 1998
Puerto Rican status referendum, 2012
Puerto Rican status referendum, 2017
The highest percentage vote for independence was in the 2012 referendum, with a whopping 5.5%.
@Jack You are aware that there have been multiple referenda on Puerto Rico's status, right? (1967, 1993, 1998, 2012, 2017) And that Canales later returned to Puerto Rico and was given a full pardon. When was the last status referendum in Tibet or Xinjiang? When was the last Party Secretary (the actual person in charge) of these so-called "autonomous regions" actually a local, in the way that people like Han Zheng have served as Party Secretary of their home cities/provinces in Han-majority areas? (Hint: there was only one, in Xinjiang, in the 1970s.)
You're right, though, who needs extradition treaties when you can just kidnap the people you find threatening without any legal niceties (like Wang Bingzhang was from Vietnam or Swedish citizen Gui Minhai was from Hong Kong)?
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