So almost 1.5 billion humans on this planet live in an increasingly authoritarian government engaging in crimes against humanity in an Orwellian manner and trying to hide what they are doing to millions of their own citizens from the world.
And then there is the unrest in Hong Kong where the vice of the Xi regime keeps tightening to squeeze all semblance of individual rights from their system of government directly against the treaty that ended British rule.
What is our responsibility and how should we respond is the obvious question.
Boycott?
72
@alan haigh
Yes, boycott. And politically contain. And set a shining example of freedom and democracy to the rest of the world (Elections 2020!). And counteract China's Belt and Road initiative by offering a coherent trade policy and path to mutually beneficial economic growth to developing countries (ya know, instead of messing up their attempts of self-determination, authorizing hypocritical counterproductive sanctions, and generally ignoring suffering except when we can justify giving Halliburton billions).
16
@alan haigh
Yes, boycott. And politically contain. And set a shining example of freedom and democracy to the rest of the world (Elections 2020!). And counteract China's Belt and Road initiative by offering a coherent trade policy and path to mutually beneficial economic growth to developing countries (ya know, instead of messing up their attempts at self-determination, authorizing hypocritical counterproductive sanctions, and generally ignoring suffering except when we can justify giving Halliburton billions).
6
No boycott, it’s time to end all relations with China. Sorry, you’re going to have to pay more for you iPhone.
1
China's policy is wrong. Immoral. Cruel. A crime against humanity. I'm unot saying that we in the US are perfect--or even good--but just as we should be held accountable again and again by the rest of the world for our disastrous (cruel, immoral, stupid) president, we should confront China. Publicly. Constantly. The world should not be silent as this policy (like the myriad perpetuated by our own government under Trump and the Republicans) cripples and destroys human lives.
5
Quite apart from the very serious and disturbing treatment of the Uighurs, the fact of a leak out of China - at the very time a CCP attempt to place a spy in the Australian Parliament is exposed and another spy’s has defected to Australia - is extraordinary. China, it seems, is no longer an iron-clad vault.
7
The leaked files that document Beijing’s repression of the Uighurs in Xinjiang remind of Mao’s Great Leap Forward campaign between 1958 and early 1960.
The only difference is that Xi’s approach is less economical, but more political, targeting an ethnic minority, aiming to achieve a total integration and assimilation of the Uighurs.
Xi’s campaign against the Uighurs began after a series of attacks in early 2014. He was determined to “tame” this minority, forcing them to undergo ideological re-orientation so that they become more docile and patriotic.
Mao’s experiment led to three consecutive years of natural calamities which quickly turned into a national disaster. Around 20 million people were estimated to have died of starvation between 1959 and 1962.
Xi’s mass internment camps in Xinjiang will hardly raise eyebrows at home, as the Han Chinese aren’t targeted. Criticism from abroad hardly has an impact on them.
5
this type of control is nothing new where in the pre-independent Malaya, the British round up rural population and put them into New Villages with fence and military guards to reduce the support to communist insurgents. The British colonial will monitor the inhabitants of New Villages to flush out anyone sympathetic to communist ideology. The plan was a success where the communist terrorists was severely weaken after the New Villages strategy and ultimately defeated.
the same strategy is working in China in combating their terrorists. China cannot be adopting the USA's bombing from the sky method coz it will be bombing its own territory.
1
We've seen Muslims and their allied SJWs protesting in front of Israeli embassies in major cities across the world, accusing Israel of running Gaza like a concentration camp. Calls for boycotts and divestment.
Here we have actual internment camps impacting millions of individuals. Where are the protests? Where are the calls to boycott things "Made in China?"
Crickets. No Jews are involved, and the Muslims are deathly afraid of offending China and its 1 billion plus potential customers.
If the West stays silent, how long before this "re-education" effort is focused on Hong Kongers and HK turns nto a mass internment camp too?
Where are the red lines for the EU and the US, and all free thinking countries of the world?
1
Unfortunately China does not care what the world thinks. Revealing information on these documents will only result in the usual response (this is an internal Chinese affair and of no business of the West). Can we start to boycott Chinese products? That is difficult when everything is made there. Maybe its time to get some of the Muslim Middle Eastern Countries to start making some noise in the UN and other world forums.
4
I don't understand how you Americans dare to criticize any other country in the world about their incarceration practices. Including the 1 million Uighurs (whose incarceration is, of course, horrible and despicable) China has - relative to their and the US' population - just about a quarter of the incarceration rate of the United States. Just a quarter!
Arrogant as you are, you Americans - apparently including the makers and readers of the New York Times - still think that your rather rotten and hypocritical country is the greatest country and the greatest democracy on earth, has the right to criticize and bully every other country, and does not need to look at its own horrible and despicable behaviors first.
Well, pride comes before the fall, and that is also true for the USA.
4
If you lived in China the censorship would have spared you the displeasure of reading this piece, or just any anything else critical of the government there.
1
What’s reported here exposes the dark side of Chinese policies in Xinjiang, which must be condemned. However, one should keep in mind that what China is doing is similar to what American settlers did to the native Americans and aboriginals in trying to subjugate and assimilate them. America will not be what it is today without the butchering of the native Americans and the theft of their land. This is the original sin of America. Hence, judge China as how one would judge America’s past. If America can change its values, so can China and other countries.
@jim
Your issue is seemingly about dubious writing which is grade D minus but process instead of substance
is what I infer about the slam dunk correction of annoying brilliance, and so thanks for constructive criticism, but btw, go to Mickey Mouse, it is a smallish world after all
China has 55 minorities; I live in the Miao autonomous region of Chengbu, like others with self-governing features.
Any Chinese history will have section on Miao Rebellion (1796-1804) and similar sections describing like uprising in Muslim areas in northwestern and southwestern China and Tibet; the minorities lost and the long and short of it integrated into the collective but maintained ethic identities of a sort; the big exceptions Tibet and Xinjiang, although ethnics from both have spread out over other provinces extensively.
Xinjiang’s battles continued in to recent times and not heard from Tibet.
China has a plan to raise the living standards and integrate peasant population to industrial skills, and the national language as it has announced in both.
As America knows Islam has introduced a threat. Compared with our interventions in Iraq and elsewhere China has it easy; like it or not. And read your history of the ‘integration’ of the Native Americans.
5
@wsmrer ,
You are correct it is quite similar to the 'integration' of Native Americans.
1
@wsmrer
Anybody who knows Chinese history knows that Han Chinese today is not really Han Chinese from 2000 years ago. During the Northern and Southern dynasties, just after the Han dynasty, Northern China was invaded by the 5 Northern tribes. This ended with the short lived Sui Dynasty, then the glorious Tang dynasty. By the time of the Tang, China was a cosmopolitan country. The great Tang poet Li Bai was not Chinese at all.
Over two millennia, populations from the North, South and West of China moved in and out of the country, either due to foreign invaders, or the Chinese military invading foreign lands. These immigrants have been successfully integrated into the local population and became "Chinese". The surname Ma, made famous by the founders of Tencent and Alibaba, for instance, came from muslim immigrants.
Xi's policy is therefore just a continuation of official Chinese policy that has worked for millennia. Much like the US policy of integrating immigrants. Every school child in the US must learn English, for instance, even if their mother tongue is Spanish and they live in former Mexican territory such as California and Texas. The question of whether ethnic minorities in Xinjiang and Tibet should be exempted from learning Chinese and being integrated into Chinese culture is much like the argument whether Hispanics in Texas and California should have to learn English and adopt US culture.
3
@wsmrer China is theall times worst totalitarian regime , you should be concerned with it's will to spread all over Asia and more! Chinese communist party is as a foe as was USSR with our freedom and independence.
And the so-called guardians of the Muslim world continue to turn a blind eye towards these atrocities.
At the direction of President Xi ( Pres. Trumps friend) modern day
human rights abuses are in place, while his elite party enabler's
children are enjoying a privileged education and lifestyle here
in the United States. Could you say that America's higher
education system as well as it's corporations are also discreet
enablers to this horror?
So, the Chinese empire-of-the-future represses minorities just like our fading empire did/does? Quelle surprise!
What's next? Random invasions of smaller, weaker countries that have done them no harm? Oh wait, they're well on their way, see: Tibet!
1
China since has been an atheistic country for going on a century now. It is a type of oligarchy, were individuals can reach their intellectual capacity based only on their abilities.
Yes, they are erasing a religion. This is exactly what the U.S. did to Japan after the war, when the deity Emperor was demoted to a mere human
The article provides a link to the formal plan:
..... the party chief, laid the groundwork for the crackdown in a series of speeches delivered in private to officials during and after a visit to Xinjiang in April 2014, just weeks after Uighur militants stabbed more than 150 people at a train station, killing 31. Mr. Xi called for an all-out “struggle against terrorism, infiltration and separatism” using the “organs of dictatorship,” and showing “absolutely no mercy.”
He continued..... they’ll never thoroughly and fully understand the dangers of religious extremism,” .....“No matter what age, anyone who has been infected by religious extremism must undergo study.”
China is eliminating such mentality, in what is a stringent but relatively humane way.
Reading Zenz' column, and the Time's coverage makes me wonder how the Nazi concentration camps were reported upon before we knew the extent of them. And how frustrating it must be to those reporting that the world stands to the sideline while this goes on. A citizens' boycott, even if it means forgoing our beloved Apple products, seems like a reasonable first step.
1
You just need to read:
"Stealth War" by General Robert Spalding and/or
"The 100 year marathon" by Michael Pillsbury to learn about the war China has waged on the west for some 50 years.
Not a war with guns and tanks but economic warfare and cyber warfare. Creating economic dependency in poorer countries.
Apparently China can remotely turn off all the electricity in the Philippines as they build the power system.
I've been trying to avoid Chinese products for years, mostly because of currency manipulation and intellectual property theft. The situation is now much more dire. Boycotting China is like boycotting oxygen; not easy to do. But for every consumer choice I get, the purchase will go to the product NOT made in China.
At every purchase opportunity, I will inform stores "I am buying this item because it is not from China."
The practice of assigning profit a higher priority than human rights and of ignoring China's geopolitical advances to preserve a commercial relationship should not be viewed through the partisan political perspective evident in some of these comments. The pursuit of commerce at the expense of all else has been a policy of both Republican and Democratic administrations. Indeed, perhaps the greatest single change in the balance of military power took place when China successfully built on sand (both legally and physically), the South China Sea military islands now housing runways, fighter squadrons, and reinforced bunkers for planes and personnel. At that point, both President Barack Obama and the Republican Congress did nothing. So if we are going to make a response, perhaps we need to make a bipartisan one.
1
Trump has such perfect opportunities to do what his supporters want and get support from the left, as well as leave a long legacy in the history books.
--Oppose immigration for environmental reasons - to fight climate change, keeping the US population from growing is critical. He gets his base and a large number of liberals to back him.
--Work with congress to prohibit firms from importing goods from countries with spotty human rights records and non-democratic governments. Manufacturers might move back to the US because all other cost effective options disappear.
Left and right can agree on quite a bit but not with the current positions each side holds. But it's a leader's role to find a new compromise, and these two are an easy start.
1
Well done, New York TImes!
This is the kind of journalism that really saves lives and changes the world.
Even if at first China may refuse to do anything (that might seem weak), they will gradually be forced to change their ways because this is not how Chinese people (some of the friendliest people on the planet) want to be portrayed.
In reality, just the fact that China supports North Korea and Assad was kind of a giveaway. But that could always be justified in terms of "keeping things under control, preventing an even worse situation" - this one is different.
2
In the west because of our faith in the 'goodness' of the capitalist system, we assume that an autocratic dictatorship which has been intent on suppressing its people is improving because it grants a few free market reforms, This is the same assumption that many in the US and Europe made when Hitler began his reign of terror even while improving its capitalist system. To our peril we have forgotten the terror and suppression inflicted on the Tibetan culture and people.
Now it is happening again with the Chinese Muslim ethnic minority and Xi will depend upon his 'friend' Trump to say nothing despite blatant evidence. And with Trump we have sacrificed along with so many thing our honor as a champion of the downtrodden to stand against terror and injustice. Trump never cared about Ukraine and even less the fate of Uighers who after all con not vote in our elections.
And how many Muslims have the US killed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Perhaps history has taught the Chinese the pernicious effect of Muslim fanaticism on an otherwise secular population.
2
It took a trove of leaked documents to verify the repression of the Uighurs in China and that’s a good thing maybe we can now start acting to help them and the same goes for other countries whose policies repress others like Israel where we don’t need leaked documents but just to be conscious to verify the abuses Palestinians endure
2
So many folks here who seem to think the US (or the rest of the world) have any ability restrain or change China's policies. Simple answer for those fantasies. Nothing the US or the other Western powers could do will restrain China in the slightest. For China is all to aware the Western countries having shipped & given their manufacturing and a good deal of their intellectual property to China, Need china more then China needs them. It doesn't matter who's in office, It could be the Dems sainted Hillary Clinton, or the current occupant bozo the clown. Nothing either one could do would change a thing. All China will do is dig in their heels and state it is internal affair and no other nations business. For all the talk the US and the so called western powers have NO ability whatsoever to dictate much influence China's current actions, Not in Xinjiang not when they finally send the troops into HK. As they surely will!
As for those proclaiming morality? When has morality EVER had anything to do with government?
2
Hard to admit but nothing will happen because the vast majority of Americans or Europeans don’t care.
The world is full of horrible governments (Americans need to concern themselves first with our detention centers at the Mexican border or the large percent of African Americans in prison) not sure its realistic to expect a few socially conscious Americans to have any impact on this problem.
The Uighurs might need to help themselves out of this problem.
1
What do the Islamic countries like Pakistan, Malaysia and SA have to say about this? Are the Uighurs not their brethren? Or is their selective outrage limited only to the Indian government?
2
Jailing someone known to blow up buses is a good thing.
Re-educating someone who advocates blowing up buses is also a good thing.
2
This is a well founded indictment on the Chinese government based on facts.
I hesitate to nitpick but here it goes. It seems to me that the only unfounded accusation is the following:
“... the Chinese Communist Party is deliberately breaking up families and forcing them into poverty and a form of indentured labor.”
We need to import more products from China so these poor people can get jobs. Right?
2
Thank you very much for this reporting. I am so grateful for good journalism. What China has been doing to innocent people is absolutely disgusting. They must answer for their crimes against humanity and make reparations.
Those poor children, those poor families. It is all reprehensible. Religious freedom is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
An interesting story, why not do some such investigative stories about us here in the United States? For example- the gerrymandering of our elections, capitalism taking over our republic ie. “ corporations are people” mentality, government misinformation campaigns aimed and making the gullible amoung us that global warming is a hoax and that nuclear power is “ green energy”.
We the people of the United States are not immune from manipulation by big business and the politicians they control! We need you New York Times to cast light on the manipulation!
Horrible, but not surprising to hear given how the Chinese act. So what is the US doing to curb this? Cosying up to China for a trade deal.
alright ! THANK YOU for revealing the facts we already strongly suspected !
1
OK, but if so, why are Russia and Turkey—not China—our key foreign policy concerns?
1
I am surprised seeing that the comments are overwhelmingly critical of Chinese Han and government. It indicates how easily people can be brain washed by falsehood, disinformation and bias of media simply because they don't like the communist government. Uighurs' deadly attacks to Chinese Han on streets, buses and markets were characterized as ethnic clashes. Whereas government's education program to Uighurs are called prison-style camps. The Chinese government was very benign to Uighurs for decades. Uighur schools from elementary to college were funded by government. Uighur students were taught in Uighurs not Chinese until 2016. Do you see any public school in the US use Spanish as teaching language? It was Chinese government who cultivated Uighur artists, scholars and even businessmen. However, the Uighurs called Xinjiang Eastern Turkestan becaused their ancestors migrated to Xinjiang from Turkey. After collapse of the Soviet Union, Islam radicals found its place in Xinjiang. Women started to cover themselves from head to toes, Girls were forbidden to go to schools. Young men were sent to mosques to be brain washed by Muslim extremism. Terrorists attacks were launched. As a result, Han Chinese fled. Population of Urumqi, Xinjiang's capital, reduced to 2.3 million from over 3 million. The education camps are to enhance living skills of Uighurs and restore confidence of living in Xinjiang. A government is entitled to educate its citizens not to kill others.
5
China has to stopped. They are the West’s biggest enemy.
1
The internal workings of a vast chain of Chinese internment camps used to detain at least a million people from the nation’s Muslim minorities are laid out in leaked Communist Party documents published on Sunday. The China Cables, a cache of classified government papers, appear to provide the first official glimpse into the structure, daily life and ideological framework behind centres in north-western Xinjiang region that have provoked international condemnation. Obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) and shared with the Guardian, the BBC and 15 other media partners, the documents have been independently assessed by experts who have concluded they are authentic. China said they had been “fabricated”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp
Several thousands Uighurs are fighting with the insurgents in Syria. Some of the blame should go to the countries that encouraged them to do so (Turkey? The US?).
But that in no way excuses the behavior of the Chinese government.
3
This is an old conflict. I seem to remember that in recent years, both the Salafi and Wahabi sent men and money to the Uighurs. Or, am I dreaming this up? In such a case, what would the US have done. We do remember how Russia handled their 'Chechnya' Or, what he US started doing after 9/11.
There is an opportunity here for Trump to pivot and claim his tariffs against China are because of their human rights abuses. He could bolster US manufacturing and gain a little respect from the left.
He won’t, of course, because he actually really likes the way Xi handles things.
But this does make me wonder how to boycott China. I was thinking of getting a new computer in the next few months, but maybe I’ll wait. “Made in China” is so ubiquitous, how do we use the market to express anger at what Xi is doing?
31
@M. Nice idea in theory but trumps critics will never gain respect for him unless he resigns. Good luck on that boycott. Your best hope is to vote democratic in 2020 but even the democrats will have a hard time standing up to China.
5
@M Still using your iPhone?
7
@M
trump will not regain any respect, for any reason, not from me.his usual beliefs and actions are unchanged .His character is static and his morals non - existent.
2
In a world where China goes after the entire NBA over something as frivolous as a tweet, can the U.S. really not find a response to something as brutal and diabolical as this?
We are witnessing the revival of Stalinism in China and we close our eyes and remain silent. I mean at this point the U.S. even seems to have ceded the moral high ground to China, as they publicly rebuked Trump's own calls for them to investigate the Bidens in their "pursuit of the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries."
The WSJ found that among the leaked files, we even see a purge of administration and party officials in the Xinjiang region who not only speak against or hesitate to participate in the internment of Uighurs, but also those who they deem do not do carry out these acts forcefully enough. China is ultimately depriving itself of skilled workers, both within the ranks of their own officials and in the populations it sends off to prison camps and the devastated communities they leave behind.
Let's not forget their increasing militancy and buildup in the South China Sea. Any response with the gravitas that is necessary for addressing these modern day Chinese gulags is likely to draw a Chinese response in that region and even potentially threaten U.S. lives conducting Freedom of Navigation operations there started under Obama and continued under Trump.
I predict Trump sees the landmine issue this is, and is going to neatly sidestep it, as he always does.
56
@Richard
Trump is nowhere near the China-enabler that prior administrations were. How in the world did Bush and Clinton admit China into the WTO?
4
@Richard You do realize that the NBA has caught the fever brought on by STD----Socialist Transaction Disease. THe only cure for them is to go cold turkey and Lebron won't let them do that, right?
Nixon’s “opening” to China was a disaster for the world, especially for Tibetans and Uighurs who have lost their own countries and cultures and are being forced by the constant threat of violence to speak Chinese. China introduced slave labor back into the world “capitalist” economy and was significant in destroying all the labor gains in the US which saw ever avaricious elite flocking to China and abandoning Americans. The Europeans who actually seem to care about their fellow citizens, unlike their American counterparts, held on to their gains and quality of life while Americans saw their standard of living drop precipitously and we are still in free fall.
63
@DSD
In all honesty, the US has never cared for Tibetans and backed Tibetan insurrection only to further its geopolitical interests. There were four airdrops of US-trained Tibetan mercenaries on the Tibetan Plateau before Nixon's opening up to China led to a discontinuation of such operations. In all instances, they were hunted down by the PLA. The Dalai Lama himself has been quoted saying that the US was just furthering its own agenda, and that he had been naive to trust them at the time. The airdrops could also have increased suspicion against India, which had a huge Tibetan refugee community, and could have motivated China's 1962 declaration of war. As usual, it is always others who bear the fallout of US foreign policy, which is only oriented to furthering its narrow interests. If the US so cared about Tibetans, then why did it just discard them after Nixon's opening to China. Why, even the Kurds were just discarded...
42
@Jack When has the US NOT acted to further its own agenda? We're not the ideal-hewing good guys we constantly claim to be, not so "exceptional" after all.
19
@DSD Actually, Chinese production for the European consumer market is just as dominant as in the US and Canada, if not more so. The same multi-national corporations are involved as in North America.
8
What happens now? United Nations report? International condemnations? Boycotts? Or just life as usual, realizing we in the West are powerless to change China’s behavior and we better get used to it. Excellent reporting is a great first step but only one. We need to stop feeding the dragon so to speak.
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@Rob Merrill
I think the US should lead by example.
1) The first thing it can do is to vacate the airbase at Diego Garcia and return the Chagos Islands to its inhabitants, who were expelled to Mauritius (1300km away) and have lived in exile ever since.
2) A referendum can be held in Puerto Rico. This would fulfil a longstanding demand of the Non-Aligned Movement since 1961.
3) A commitment can be made to end the violation of sovereignty of nations (e.g. Libya, Iraq) and the preciptation of instability and refugee crises.
4) By setting an example through these steps, the US can gain status as a respected member among the community of nations. As Gandhi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." Change cannot be enforced through an imposition. Change must come from within, the way I see it.
21
@Jack Thank you for your insight. This is what I feel most people fail to see in the argument against human rights violations in China, or elsewhere.
5
@Jack , Sadly, none of your excellent proposals is even remotely possible in the US of 2019-2020. And by 2021, a lot of situations all around the world will have changed radically.
Right now (and maybe for the rest of this century), the US isn't a strong player on the world stage.
9
Why doesn't Trump do something about this? Should be replaced by: let's hope he doesn't get ideas from this story.
1
Companies like Amazon have empowered the Chinese economy and thus its repressive government. The Wall Street Journal recently wrote an enlightening article about Amazon and China ripoffs. Why aren’t they being called to account for economically enabling this treacherous regime?
2
We need to re-figure our Made in China policy.
1
I have just read the research article linked in the article (http://www.jpolrisk.com/wash-brains-cleanse-hearts) in full, and I highly recommend those who are interested in this topic to read it as well. I would like to provide some summaries.
First, there are several types of re-education facilities. They include vocational training centers (VTIC), detention centers, and prisons. Of these, detention centers and prisons operate under the judicial system, while vocational training centers do not.
The vocational training centers themselves can be divided into two phases. The first phase is an indoctrination, mandarin-learning, and legal knowledge training phase. Detainees are scored based on their behavior and knowledge and can graduate after at least one year of detention. Then, they move on to a vocational training phase where they learn specific skills.
Chinese propaganda tend to show only the vocational training phase and imply that this training forms the entirety of VTIC system. Meanwhile, US media, particularly photographs, equate VTIC with detention centers, without acknowledging the real vocational training component of the centers. Both are misleading as shown by the documents.
To be continued.
No surprises here. The Chinese regime remains and will always be a monster of authoritarianism and human rights abuses. Mass murder under Mao has become internment, repression, and "re-education" under the current leadership. This is the most racist regime now on the planet, targeting people on the basis of their ethnicity. And it continues to build its military strength and flex its imperial muscles. It's a pariah among nations and should be treated as such.
11
It seems to me that the author had a kind of confusion between ethnic issues and a single-party dictatorship. The former happens or happened even in so-called democratic countries, which should not be used to attack the latter.
Before we Americans start criticizing other countries for how they treat people of different backgrounds within their borders, we should set a better example in our behavior toward African-Americans, Hispanics, Muslims, American Indians, asylum seekers, children, and our poor.
We have had repeated race riots in many cities in our own country.
We should also recognize that the radical Wahhabi Islam taught in worldwide madrassas and funded by our good friends in Saudi Arabia teaches intolerance toward nonbelievers and non-Wahhabi Islamic beliefs.
The Uighurs, who live in China's Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, were involved in bloody riots against Han Chinese in 2010 in which 192 people were killed and thousands more were injured from bombs and knives.
Meanwhile, we read very little about the current conditions in our own interment camps, the separation of children from their families in the Southwest, and the cruel behavior of our Federal employees in ICE and the Border Patrol toward brown skinned peoples.
3
Just a thought here. What China is doing is horrible to be sure, but recall our own history with Native Americans. Do we get to preach here? Or should we guide China based on our own experience?
Tell me, which country has been involved in countless wars in the last decades? Which country's intelligence agency has seen to the installation of countless brutal dictatorships around the world?
My first thought after reading this was to ask “and Trump wants a new trade agreement with this Chinese Government?” And then I remembered who I was thinking about and answered of course he does because he admires the dictator and cares only for economic agreements nothing to do with rights and laws.
Someday, when China becomes a civilized nation,lawyers for the descendants of the wronged will make the descendants of the guilty pay, heavily.
It's terrible what they're doing. We have no power to stop it. I am sorry, is all we can say.
China is, without a doubt, the gravest threat to peace, democracy and stability in the world today. Communism, as the USSR proved, and as a political and social practice, is at odds with human nature and destined to fail because it strips its people of individual identity in favor of the group identity. So why is it working in China, at least for now? Two reasons:
1. China's ability to censor information and manipulate facts to support the party's world view exists at a level and with such sophistication that the Chinese people wouldn't know "truth" if it was staring them in the face with clear and indisputable empirical evidence supporting it. The clearest example of this today is how mainland Chinese citizens view and understand the Hong Kong protests.
2. The Chinese government has used this mass censorship program in conjunction with historical oppression of the Chinese people at the hands of regional powers and the West to assert an unwavering national "identity of victimization". Thus, any opposition, criticism or disagreement that is perceived to be "against China" is immediately viewed as illegitimate and ill intentioned. This is easily observed in global Universities where large Chinese student populations mobilize and protest (sometimes violently) against any published criticism of Chinese government practices.
The end result is an aggressive and manipulative regime that has the unwavering support of its people, often in spite of their own interests.
7
@John profound observations.
The only thing I find unnecessary is the “(sometime violent)” part. Because if you want to include that phrase in that context you should have included the same phrase, in capital letters, after “Hong Kong protests”.
@John I'm chuckling because if you substitute Trump for China in this comment, you get a very telling read.
1
@alex65
I do not condone violent protests, but the differences between those in Hong Kong and the student protests in support of China at Universities could not be any more stark. Hong Kong protesters are fighting for democracy and freedom of thought. Chinese student protesters are responding to written criticism of the Chinese regime, not policy. It's not the same.
I am confused by what becomes of amazing industrialized Taiwan and of amazing libertarian seeking Hong Kong especially
Chinese authoritarianism also known as the Chinese Communist Party aka the Han controlling the political economic dominance of the PRC
government SEEMS to be the established ruling party status quo that the USA et al seemingly now semi accept
Boycotting China feels/seems/amounts to sure foolishness/radicalism/instability/worse chaos, imho
In other words isn’t boycotting doomed to be lose-lose nuttiness?
Compromising is probably the best we/they can ever do in adapting/surviving/coping with enormous human contradictions that we have/they have too
That they fear our western freedom is unfortunate, but boycotting/ stirring them up is impractical if not crazy
We certainly have our complexity, let them have their ugly contradictions too, and please leave us out of it
@Robert Cohen, Georgia USA
Numerous/redundant "/". Use fewer/less next time/in the future.
@Robert Cohen, Georgia USA
To tolerate oppression is to support it.
China has a a social problem which will only get worse with time. As soon as their economy starts to slow down we will see a massive upheaval. And it can go either way. More repression and a clampdown leading to a militaristic and aggressive government both towards perceived internal and external threats or a slow easing up on controls and movement towards democracy. Which is more likely?My money is on the former. Any takers?
1
We always knew, but chose to ignore it for the sake of profit.
30
Too bad we're so economically intertwined with China. You can thank U.S. corporations who were more than happy to close factories here in the US and transfer jobs to countries (like China) where they could pay workers a fraction of American wages with little or no benefits.
18
@Gregg
And essentially no quality or safety standards.
10
It’s natural for us in the West to be outraged by such injustice, but it would be a mistake to interfere in China’s internal affairs. Their society will progress at its own pace and no faster. We have more than enough evils of our own to rectify.
4
And yet when it comes to trade, investments in and borrowing from China, we treat them like a benevolent counterparty, willing to play by the rules of free markets and free trade.
We are unable to bear the smallest amount of pain in order to ensure that their mercantilist policies are rectified.
When will we wake up?
17
Never will China be democratic or anything close to it. Read history.
The government tentacles extend into everyone born into the country, even if they leave, and these are life lasting as long as anyone or their family members remain in country.
Even if citizenships are obtained in another country the grip remains. If people don’t continue to be loyal, somebody gets hurt or suddenly disappears.
Maybe interned, maybe worse.
When people disappear not much comes out about what has become of them. It’s rare when it does.
Anyone that thinks that this will change is deluded. No matter what Trump or any other leader does, this will not change.
Trump, the big talker, is living in a fantasy world if he’s thinks he’s going to stiff arm change. He has zero clue about the enormity he faces. He’s too simpleminded to understand the multivariate complexities. But, we know that already.
Just keep in mind that if the Chinese leadership there is crossed, someone or someone’s someone(s) will suffer.
13
@WW West
Your description of China is mostly imaginary; the average citizen has little if any interaction with authority, the party unloaded that role long ago. There is a Public Security Bureau that within its files holds a card for on everyone, just as Soc. Sec. does and is for most about as interactive, unless you move and then must notify them, like SS,. States keep files for various reasons China’s theme is if you know they are watching (with camera or not) you will behave. The public has little if any reason to oppose the operational government they have, times are improving year after year; can we say the same?
@WW West You do remember that both parties have served up America to China?
And, an important point. the secrecy behind all this shows that the Communist Party of China and its members and leaders know this program is morally wrong and would not be tolerated in any decent community - and that the Chinese people would not tolerate this if they knew about it.
13
@Dave
Everything the CCP does is secret. Morality has nothing to do with it.
Culturally and language-wise, China should be about 7 different countries.
There is no shortage of hatred for minority groups that are perceived to be a threat to the unity of the Chinese state. This is not a morality issue.
The Han Muslims that have been in China for centuries, and integrated with the Chinese culture and state do not have these problems.
Uyghurs are a problem because they are a political force, and do not get along with the Han, Hui, and Salar Muslim groups in the country.
This is not to say that Uyghur persecution is justified in any way. It's more than the CCP who are against their beliefs and politics, hence why they're perceived as threats.
4
I was already avoiding buying things made in China because we already knew about its human rights abuses and now I am even more determined. Better yet would be action by the federal government.
15
I was in Xinjiang as a tourist a year ago. I visited Kashgar and Urumqi during a week. I saw that the old city in Kashgar is emptied out with shops closed except for a street for Chinese tourists. Shops are shuttered and checkpoints are everywhere. I was told that someone’s mother and brother had been moved to a camp. I was told that people remaining were harassed to attend propaganda classes for hours a day despite having jobs or else lose their apartment. The mosque was essentially converted to a site for tourists, with moslem men afraid to enter for fear of being tracked by Chinese guards. As someone who speaks Mandarin and loves China it was painful to see a city reduced to a joyless pacified zone with deputized civilian patrols with clubs. I doubt that many Chinese outside of the province know what’s going on. They do know, however, that Han Chinese were stabbed in great numbers in 2014. I suggest that the crux of the problem is the desire for freedom and the inhumanity of mankind. Foreign policy can’t express how evil the internment is in real terms. Based on what I saw and heard it’s worse than what we read, and unimaginably inhumane to families. Reminds me of a book I read about Russians treated Hungarians after their uprising in the 1950s.
51
China is a very large country with lots of people. With the current Trade restrictions on Chinese goods and the subsequent restrictions of goods shipped to China, they have to feed their population somehow.
It seems President Xi Jinping's Modest Proposal will alleviate much of discomfort of most of his subjects.
7
I hope the weather is fine in Beijing today.
@havnaer
What? Are they going to feed everyone Uighers??
the liberal democracies of the world have to realize that the effort to democratize china has failed. tiananmen square marked the turning point where it should have clear that the communist party was willing to massacre its citizens rather that give up power. the opening by nixon to china had a two fold purpose. first as a cold war strategy to isolate russia and move china away from its influence. as the first strategy seemed to be working the second, to move china away from its totalitarian communist political and economic system was implemented. by increasing the wealth of its citizens and creating a more capitalist oriented economy the theory was this would make china more democratic. this second strategy has completely failed. survailance is more intrusive than ever. while the political strategy failed the economic aspects did not. china is on a path to become the largest economy in the world. much of that new wealth is being used to increase the size and technological advantage of its military and to spread its influence world wide. the US economy can absorb and adapt to the cessation of trade with china. other democratic countries must follow suit. hopefully we can force the chinese economy to slow if not contract. we have until 2047 to tame the chinese beast. if we do not then once the chinese take over hong kong they will move on to taiwan, and their pernicious influence over asia, africa, new zealand and australia will be impossible to counter.
23
@allen
Relations with China only allowed a select few of its citizens to become wealthy and send their kids overseas.
That was by design, and Kissinger knew it. Opening up relations with China was not about "bringing democracy" but having access to a large labor pool of exploitable workers for the benefit of Western firms, and the CCP elite.
Anyone who truly knows anything about China's ethnic/religious groups and their regional tensions knows that they are more than happy to run roughshod through them to make a buck.
This mantra of "bringing democracy to the world" is a lovely marketing gimmick journalists love, but real people know its far less real than Santa Claus.
26
There is a place for ethical leadership on human rights, and though the U.S. is not a consistently good example, we should still be leading the effort to influence China. China represents the "other option" in managing disparate groups within a large country: it is the option of authoritarianism, the attempt at an "easy way." "Poof, we'll just get everyone to comply by making them an offer they can't refuse." Democracy/elected representative government is the "hard way," in which the commitment to "herd cats," if necessary is accepted as the only way to have a civil civilization. It means the practice of tolerance of differences, the building of consensus and the preserving of the rights of minorities. This means progress can be agonizingly slow at times. However, competent leadership can help--it's just that the U.S. is short of that at most levels. China is a reality we cannot wish away. We need to stay engaged so that China has a reason to hope things go well for the U.S. and vice versa. But we need to demonstrate that we are willing to continually improve our own human rights record and be transparent about our failures and plans for rectification. So China should see that it is profitable to trade with the U.S., even though we consistently push them to improve their human rights posture. This means continued effort and commitment, not throwing tantrums and abandoning the consensus of other developed countries who are our allies. Time for the Trump Incompetence to end!
13
@Gary Pippenger
It would be of interest to note that Hitler referenced the Jim Crow Laws of the American South as a model for the laws of the Third Reich. Xi now references American action after 911 as their model for their "war on terror". The internment camps are modeled after Guantanamo, perhaps ? But they probably would not use waterboarding. That would be going too far.
'nough said.
Government "deliberately breaking up families."
Sound familiar?
67
@Richard yes, but a distinction is in order here. However shameful the US policy was/is it applies only to people illegally crossing the border. The chinese one applies to people who are their own citizens. Often not even allowed to travel.
8
@LR That's a very fine distinction to draw, and I don't think there's a decent argument that it makes a difference to the moral aspect of breaking up families.
3
@Diane
So it is ok to break up families if they are forced to be somewhere? Did the Chinese Uighurs and Muslims choose to live in China?
Maybe "we" are not forcing anyone to come over here, but the drug gangs are. Do you think you could stand to live under those conditions?
Every nation has minorities that persist in frictional practices rooted in religion, the US included.
4
@Steve Bolger
But that doesn't mean a country should adopt the German model of dealing with such "frictional" practices.
4
@paul5795 Not German, but rather Fascists who are ascendant globally.
I wonder if it's a total coincidence that China thought they could get away with this in a period of an extraordinary international power vacuum brought about by the election of one Donald Trump in the USA.
34
@Nick Gold ... precisely! Solid, longterm leadership is needed from the United States now more than ever *before* the People's Republic of China and its Communist Party leadership get much stronger. They are on an extremely dangerous path not too dissimilar to that of a newly minted Empire of Germany in the 1880s.
Work with the G7 nations, other English speaking democracies such as Australia and New Zealand, and foster agreement on a much more concise & effective strategy vis à vis the PRC.
8
@Nick Gold No. China has been working on this for 40 years
1
Of course, this would never happen in America.
Such an idea would be intoduced as an environmental protection, and only a gov't big enough to carry out the Green New Deal could even try it.
So, it'll never happen, right?
The most likely first or later step to what China is doing is restrictions on your being able to, say, drive out of town without the gov't knowing.
Bernie doesn't even like tea, does he?
2
@L osservatore If it happens in the USA, it will be due to people like Trump, fascist authoritarians rather than people like Obama who was a meek compromising kind of guy. Trump is incompetent but his lackeys aren't always and one day a rightist person is more likely to become dictator of this country. Remember, anything Sanders wants will be done DEMOCRATICALLY - it will represent the will of people.
1
Someone in the press please ask Trump what he proposes to do about this ( if anyone can hear him over the noise of the helicopter).
3
In a one-child nation, those who have more will be resented.
2
Many thanks for this brutally clear piece of Journalism. No one would wish to be trapped in a prison, in very harsh conditions, to be "re-educated" - and all because of their Faith.
The Chinese Communist Party has a long and lurid reputation for theft. What Xi Jinping is doing in Xinjiang is in the same model of Mao's Invasion of the neighboring Nation of Tibet. Mao stole Tibet at gunpoint in 1959, murdering thousands of non-aggressive, peaceful citizens, and jailing thousands more for their Faith. To this day, Tibet is sealed off to foreigners, yet Chinese can travel anywhere in America without restriction.
No Nation came to Tibet's aid - just as no Nation is coming to help these imprisoned minorities - and just as no Nation is coming forward to help the People of Hong Kong.
And, for all of the blood, butchery and lies from the Chinese Communist Party, Trump says that Xi Jinping is; "my good friend" and "an incredible guy".
I wouldn't buy a used car from Xi Jinping, let alone trust any form of Trade or Diplomatic Treaty with him, or the CCP.
The lies are clear as day. The theft and butchery as well. I always believed that Democracy and Human Rights were FAR more important than buckets of money, but "our" Administration in Washington sees it differently. That is truly sick.
America has no business doing business with the Chinese Communist Party.
Boycott China.
40
@W.Wolfe You're largely right but I've travelled extensively in Tibet. It's possible but in general China is a much more restrictive country than the US. You can do a few things now but as you know the Internet experience itself is different. People accept it just like they accept it here. Western government is done with a soft touch.
In all cases, it's about people wanting power and money.
7
@DipThoughts In the US systems, there is hope for change. You are able to freely comment on it and work towards improving things if you so dire. In China, not so much. At some point you'll hit a brick wall there whereas here the sky's the limit.
There are better and worse evils.
11
@W.Wolfe
The imprisonment of minorities is not much different in this country. It is likely that a larger percentage of the black population is incarcerated in the US compared to what happens in China. We can only imagine how the US would treat a religious minority with a radical idea of changing the laws to go back to middle-ages.
5
What is our fearless leader going to do about this? Even if he didn't think Xi Jinping was his buddy, Trump would regard these victims as Islamics, hardly worth the effort, let alone the cost. To be fair, if fairness exists in such a situation, even if Obama or George W were president: nothing doing.
Someone is leaking and whistleblowing. At the same time the citizens of Hong Kong are putting their lives on the line so "re-education" doesn't happen to them. Surely the people of China, who have been under the thumb of the Party, are as fed up as were the Russian people who overthrew the Soviet Union. Xi Jinping is like the plate-spinner in the Chinese circus that visits Portland every year. He can't keep it up when the plates represent more than a billion people.
4
You can bet trump is taking notes: as in "why can't I do that here?".
6
Although the world has been witnessing China’s human rights violations of its citizens for quite some time and the persecution of ethnic minorities, from Tibet to Xinjiang, it has managed somehow to acquiesce to China’s leadership.
The release of the treasure trove of documents outlining its nefarious scheme of persecutions and prosecutions provide the world with tangible proof , and is a game changer where silence is not an option. The West has to lead a pressure campaign to force the reversal of ethnic persecution and prosecution with the weapon China fears most: trade.
7
This is another example of nationalism getting out of hand. Apparently in China any group of people who are not Han Chinese are regarded as a threat to China. In normal times the US would have a president who would speak out on such human rights abuses going on in China but all the US now has is a president who praises Xi. This appears to be the worst program carried out by the Communist Party in China since the cultural revolution. Now that these documents have been leaked world condemnation should follow and human rights advocates should carry out a major campaign to bring an end to this horrific program being carried out in China. Some people have seen China as a successful alternative to capitalist democracy but the leaked documents reveal a much darker picture of a country that is trying to control its population by using means that should be considered by all other counties as unacceptable. China is becoming more of nightmare than a model.
36
As happened in the 1930s, a brutal dictatorship with genocidal tendencies proceeds to crush its neighbors and dissidents. We saw it in Germany, it is happening again now with China.
Resist the genocidal murderers of Beijing.
48
@BP
The leaked documents explicitly show that there are no genocides/murders going on.
1
Run by the fascistic "Communist" dictator, Trump's friend.
18
@free range Do you think this just happened since Trump has been president? Please elaborate on what Obama did regarding China. We know he gave the Crimea to the Russians, so how did Barack stand up to dictators?
8
@Jackson He placed strong sanctions on Russia and would've done more had Congress cooperated.
What has Trump done except bow down and lick boots?
1
A clear cut policy of colonialism and ethnic cleansing enforced by illegal arrests, illegal detention, barbaric torture and mass murder. China's government is revealed as an enemy state, a malevolent fascist dictatorship bent on world domination by force.
20
@Federalist: Nothing in this article or any other article published by NYT justifies your statement. The article clearly states that about 16% of Uighurs have been detained. The article also clearly states that after a time in the camps, people are being released. That is not ethnic cleansing. All the evidence in this article points to the Chinese government doing what they said they were trying to do, which is root out extremism from the Uighur population.
1
@David Bosak : Yeah, and Modi's imposition of brutal martial law in Kashmir is only out of concern for the Kashmiri economy.
I'm astonished that so many commenters are willing to shrug off China's high-tech police state in Xinjiang by glibly stating that the US isn't perfect.
@David Bosak
Actually, the article supports everything that @Federalist said except for the mass murder part. And let's hope the internment camps don't lead there. Too earl to tell.
"Beijing’s occasional tours of its so-called model camps often feature attractive young women. In reality, people between 30 and 59 were especially likely to be interned, according to the spreadsheets."
Uh oh. Those two sentences might get the reporter into a bit of trouble.
5
This is where Trump is taking us. This is what he wants this country to be.
7
@Citizen of the Earth What are you talking about?
3
It i s perfectly clear now that the CCP is committing a slow boil genocide against the Uighur people. This is just one more reason to work intensively to untangle Western economic ties with China and powerfully counter the CCPs attempts to quietly undermine free speech, expression and trade globally.
24
History will judge us all if we do not speak out and stand up for these oppressed people. Let us have the courage to act.
12
"authorities so deliberately sought to shield from external scrutiny information about operations"
This really sounds like the White House in the lead-up to the Iraq War. At the time, those who questioned the pretext of going to war (and the very existence of WMDs) were labelled un-patriotic.
After trillions squandered over 18 years and at least 300,000 Iraqis killed in post-invasion instability, I can say that external scrutiny is needed here too...
8
@Jack Thank you for that comment, Miss Direction.
And?
The general public is already convinced that China is behaving in an irredeemable fashion. In this day and age, evidence means nothing because it changes no minds. Everyone's pre-sorted into their own mental boxes and nobody is open to reorganization. China included.
Xi isn't going to flip the script and change policy just because some papers were leaked.
Trump isn't going to flip the script just because one of his guys decides to spill the whole story.
People don't change. The only remaining mental adjuster is that which is hard-coded into our DNA: the change brought by severe trauma or life-threatening situations.
5
@RS5: I'm starting to think you are right. So sad that we can't debate constructively.
1
@RS5
Precisely. You can't force people to do the right thing. They will only do it when the cost of not doing so outweighs the benefit.
1
In the TV NZ prime time news at 6pm last evening I saw a new batch of Chinese police dogs who have been gene edited so they are better at their jobs. China is into gene editing big time and seems to be leading the way with this research; though it does have ethical issues involved, like how it could be used to control humans and how they think. China is a communist nation so there's nothing anyone can do about it. (Makes you wonder why they want to send Hong Kong criminals to China to serve their sentences.)
6
Xi has to go down the hard way. Short of a revolt, worldwide economic boycotts could take him out.
16
China needs to learn from the US.
According to the NAACP, "In 2014, African Americans (about 12% of the US population) constituted 2.3 million, or 34%, of the total 6.8 million correctional population." and "African Americans are incarcerated at more than 5 times the rate of whites."
You don't want to look all 1984, Big Brother. The optics can be much better when you selectively enforce laws.
4
I may disagree with the methods the Chinese are using but people need to be taught that religion is just manipulative mythology if we are to have any chance at surviving the next hundred years. We must take responsibility for ourselves and our planet before it is to late.
12
@Ted Wright Finally a comment that reflects the disruptive nature of the ideas that the Chinese government is trying to repress. Religious extremism is difficult for any sort of modern government to cope with, whether the government is a democracy or an autocracy.
6
@Ted Wright Reminds me of when I was in Paris and saw Chinese tourists taking picture of Voltaire's statue in the Pantheon. You know...the Voltaire who said "I may disagree with what my opponent says but I will fight to the death for his right to say it." Freedom does not discriminate on the basis of religion; for those tourists it was probably just another photograph.
@Garlic Toast wrote: "Religious extremism is difficult for any sort of modern government to cope with, whether the government is a democracy or an autocracy."
You seem to want it both ways. You can slaughter all of the rhinos, pangolins, sea horses, and sharks in the world for some body part to be ground up into powder for "traditional Chinese medicine". Hmm. When the reason you ingest a substance cannot even survive the simplest test from the Age of Enlightenment (measurable, observable, repeatable) what do we call that reason, that belief? Ah, yes! Religious extremism. Time to round 'em up and head 'em out to be re-educated!
Remember Tibet. Our trade status changed but human rights?
6
Perhaps governing is nigh-impossible.
You want your fellow citizens to be free, happy, and productive, yet also law-abiding, peaceful, and willing to adapt to the culture to some extent anyway. It's much like having children. You wish them the best, but when they get out of line, well, you discipline them for society's sake.
Granted, adults aren't children and shouldn't be treated as such, but adults can also cause real trouble, for example, when they form gangs, which can and does include religious gangs, in effect.
What to do about troublemakers, those who won't paddle the boat in the same direction, who refuse to fit in, who actively disrupt?
History is full of final solutions being used; let us, please god, not again employ, or allow, those tragic tactics. China, however, seems to be pushed and pulled in that direction. In fact, its policies and actions sound beyond the pale already.
So now what, China? You're between a rock and a hard place, a lose-lose situation.
"There is no such thing as governing people. There is, however, such a thing as leaving people alone."
-- ancient Chinese proverb
3
Thank you NYTimes for this remarkable , detailed journalism!
It's one thing to see this in China. but in America, NDAA 2012 is already law. When activated, article 1021 allows for no-warrant arrest of any American, anywhere; and article 1022 provides for no right to trial...ever. President Obama signed the bill to fund the Pentagon for 2012.
Imagine tent camps along the Union Pacific, northwest of Yuma AZ...and then use Google maps to examine the existing ground along the west side of the railroad, a few miles out from Yuma. The ground is excavated, with what appear to be plumbing and electrification.
3
Western nations have completely abdicated their moral and intellectual authority, while China has all but eliminated extreme poverty in their country and will eliminate all poverty by 2030. Thus the need for an increasingly histrionic propaganda campaign, to distract the American people from their own nation’s authoritarianism and ethnic cleansing.
1
It's how Wall St wants things done. China is the sweatshop for predatory cancer capitalism without which the American economic system cannot be sustained!
3
The information disclosed is of incomparable value. It will be referred to by historians for many years. But I digress to make a point I have made before.
The Pentagon Papers came to the Times and there is a fine movie about how the underdog Post scrambled to catch up. And the same thing happens and over because the Times is the place sourced come to for blockbuster disclosures.
This is not in the public interest. It would be much better if such information was handled by many different sources so that what is highlighted would be decided by many, giving us a more comprehensive understanding of the historic material. Instead, the Times always gets the first word, which is the most important. And if the source is willing to talk off the record he or she talks to the Times.
This is monopoly power, pure and simple. It should be stopped. For all I know, it could violate antirust laws. It is unacceptable. And the Times should be forced to share.
1
We have no leverage over China because going all the way back to Reagan, the oligarchs and plutocrats have sold our productivity, our manufacturing, and our dominance, in order to destroy, nearly completely, the labor unions, and pocket short-term profits.
Our vulture capitalism that we worship has replaced REAL capitalism that emphasizes actually making stuff. When my parents returned from visiting China, weeks before the Tienanmen Square, presents they brought had the very, VERY rare "Made in China" label. Now, everything has it!
How? We LET them and now it's too late to get it back without DREADFUL effects on ourselves.
So all these great ways to try to stop these atrocities have been given away, starting in 1981. China has ALWAYS taken the long vision for the future. When you're a giant 5,000 year old nation, 100 years is BARELY the "long view". Whereas our leaders, especially the Republicans, and most seriously THIS leader, our "vision" doesn't reach to the next hour, much less the next 10 years.
19
So, why are American companies still doing business in China? As they used to say back in the 1960's, you're either part of the problem or part of the solution.
77
Very sad piece yet important addition to what we already know. What’s just as depressing is the utter lack of moral courage and leadership on the part of the US yet another example of our geopolitical decline.
55
This should be deemed as a disappointment and indicative of improper governance, which it is, but in light of what's going on in the United States we certainly can't feign outrage. While the Republican Party has made it part of their platform to actively pursue means to erode voting access and rights for multitudes they feel are not reliable Republican voters while at the same time enabling a president who is, not only a vocal advocate against punishing a American war criminal, but is using his powers to interrupt and derail the punishments proceedings, the United States credibility is at least on par with China. If a debate is to occur over China's tactics, the chair reserved for the United States needs to remain vacant.
7
@David
Not quite equal. There is plenty of ugly going on here to point at but we are not systematically incarcerating an entire ethnic group and brainwashing them to be passive and compliant just because we fear their difference from "us".
6
@magicisnotreal
False equivalence. The US is not rounding up and detaining hundreds of thousands of its citizens without trial.
6
We have the "Hammer". The U.S. has what China needs and wants: Eager customers for their products. We have the stable economy that every international business wants to compete in. We just need a POTUS to wield that Hammer on behalf of the United States and it's citizens.
53
@Michael W. Espy No, we dont have the Hammer. It is too late. China is too strong now. China's GDP is 70% of US GDP, and its domestic consumption market is even bigger than USA.
Between a rock and a hard place.
US Economy needs China. Any type of trade sanctions would be as disruptive to US as to China, perhaps not in the short term but definitely long term.
We can't go to war with China.
So - the solution is....what?
@Brett Lane: Gripe about them endlessly. It's the American way!
1
Oligarchy struggling to retain totalitarian control and economic prosperity.
Marx presumed that human life is as deterministic as the phenomena described by physics, and that historical determinism meant that in the end humanity would exist without the need of states nor institutions to maintain civil order. The role of the dictatorship of the proletariat was to transform human social behaviors and institutions to produce that result. Respecting diversity and dissimilar interests through liberal institutions is distraction under this viewpoint. The simple fact has been that the communist dream of perfect brotherhood of all always leads to viciously intolerant ruling elites that indifferently destroy millions of lives to achieve conformity and obedience.
Prosperity in our time is based upon mass production and marketing which must expand to generate the wealth needed to keep it going. The momentum is produced by people wanting more than they have, and seeking to gain the means to have it. This tends to encourage self centeredness and an anti-soviet kind of attitude.
China is going to have to change it’s form of government or return to the rigidly controlled system that produced the economic malaise under Mao.
4
@Casual Observer You really need to go back to school. China is not an oligarchy. It is a totalitarian state. And it is neither Marxist nor Communist. It is a dictatorship with a planned economy where there is a degree of individual freedom that is revocable. Know your enemy.
6
@michjas
Don't forget the dozens of multi-billionaires seated in their congress. Seems oligarchic to me.
In normal times, an American president would be seeking consensus in Congress and advice from his cabinet on how best to send a message to China that this is unacceptable behavior, or set up some kind of punitive actions. In these times, the American president is giving lip service to the human rights debacle ("we stand with Hong Kong," etc.) while really just looking for a trade deal for his personal puffery and grand guignol image. "I don't know the Uighurs. Everyone tells me they're nothing special. I think I took a picture with one a number of years ago."
81
If only America had groups of something like friends, a coalition of like minded nations that could work together by combining their wealth, knowledge and power to encourage China to behave in a manner more becoming of a 21st century economic partner. A coalition of democratic allies? Perhaps a multi-lateral trade agreement that “encourages” a respect for workers rights too? If only a leader of a group of allies could encourage the direction they lead in, for the benefit of all, since a nation of law cannot compete economically with slaves, perhaps that leader would understand it benefitted them too?
Nah, America Exceptional. America Alone. America First. Wouldn’t want to appear weak huh?
14
Trump has no intellectual skills and no respect for reason.
6
@gcinnamon You do forget that Obama (and Hillary leading from the rear) decided to teach Libya how to be a peaceful and beautiful nation by invading it in 2011. How is that going?
1
"No more denying, no more dodging". Obviously the author is not familiar with recent polling on impeachment in this country. The Republican Party has proven, once again, that there is always room for denial, even when faced with incontrovertible facts, disclosures and documentation. The Communist Party should take notes from Republicans on how it's done. Keep lying, keep dodging, keep deflecting, it never grows old or effective when the populace is willing to suspend belief for no other reason than the loss of reason is preferable to the loss of Party.
19
If we fail to take a stand on this human rights issue, purely for the sake of a trade deal, it will be more evidence that the inexpensive products we get from China in fact have a very steep and tragic cost.
50
You seem to be under the delusion you, a nation with laws, rights and wages can compete economically with slaves who labour. TTPI was the agreement for future success regarding matters such as this. That type of agreement was how past US leaders had realised they could leash the most rabid, to gain a modicum of control of the worst human rights violations in countries, to the benefit of US and her allies. Being the leader of those allies meant you could tilt those agreements more substantially in your favour.
Now, with the sophistication of a mob boss, you fight allies and are left with the ineffective cudgel of trade tariffs. Alone. Much as we shall be after Brexit actually. Only we won’t even have a cudgel, tugging our furlocks, holding our bowls out for chlorinated chicken and GM foods.
My god, you realise we will both sink even before the environmental catastrophe - the one your country is racing the planet to the precipice of - really gets going?
7
China's dystopia;
1) Ethnic cleansing.
2) Progress through intellectual thievery.
3) Expansion of border with phony islands for military expansion in South China Sea.
4) Spying on citizens with internet, cameras everywhere and artificial intelligence.
5) Infiltration of all corporations by Chinese Communist Party.
6) Currency manipulation by a central bank beholden to CCP.
7) Corruption enhanced by poor courts and secret government processes.
8) Media tightly controlled.
9) Police with no over sight.
10) Stifling social & intellectual conformity from Orwellian state.
These are not conditions for a sustainable state in a
modern era. But a lot of chaos is likely. We need a modern George Keenan and Western coalition to ride this out. Trump, the GOP and Populism are asleep at the switch.
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@GTR said "Trump, the GOP and Populism are asleep at the switch."
I think it's worse. They're enviously watching Xi build the country of their dreams.
Marx thought the Dialectic would end. It won't, of course. We are all riding the whirlwind. Hang on tight.
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@GTR
I do not dispute your laundry list. Unfortunately for China's worst-off inhabitants, authoritarianism can indeed hold back chaos, at least if the majority of the populace believes the alternative (e.g. HK) is worse.
The West needs a coherent policy for contradicting and containing China's authoritarianism. I fear for Africa, South America, and much of SE Asia. Maybe we should stick to a polite detente in political posturing, but on the economic and cultural front, the U.S. should have a counteroffer to China's Belt and Road initiative.
Per other comments, U.S. consumers should take a moral stance to boycott Chinese products. I doubt that will happen, though -- even people who can very definitely afford it are generally too cheap and selfish to buy responsibly.
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@GTR I disagree that "these are not conditions for a sustainable state in a modern era". The Soviet Union fell apart just before the Internet became ubiquitous, and before its economy transformed to what one could call capitalism. Nevertheless, it survived for some seventy years despite its inefficiency. The Communist regimes of North Korea, Vietnam and Cuba show no signs of being overthrown any time soon. China, on the other hand, is different, and given that its productivity and its means of social control are much more potent than what the Soviet Union had, political change is not likely in the foreseeable future. I hope I am completely wrong in drawing this conclusion.
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This is all very interesting. The timing of the release of these docs is coincident as we approach the endgame of how Mr. Xi will deal with Hong Kong. Coincidence, unlikely but, in the end, will any of this make a difference? Mr. Xi will have no compunction handling H.K. in the way that he wants when it suits him.
Will the Chinese internment camps and the future purification of H.K. really matter to a fragmented Europe or stressed U.S. foreign policy? For the foreseeable future, me thinks not. I hope that I am wrong but, I do not think so.
Belt and road percolates smoothly along. Should it?
Turn the page.
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@Spacetime , The "belt and road" doesn't, in fact, seem to be percolating as planned. And, fortunately, "a fragmented Europe [and] stressed U.S." aren't the only players at the worldwide table.
I think your hope that you are wrong is reasonable.
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@Harold (Mexico)
Yes of course, I mistakenly did not mention the current ungluing of Latin America and Asian friends and allies of the US who are questioning US security commitments. The next 15 months will be crucial in terms of how the planet will continue to rotate on it's axis future tense.
Belt and road may not have an immediate silky future but the allure of Chinese cash is still compelling to those who are looking for unconditional infusions.
Thanks for your comment.
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@Spacetime , Thanks for remembering the Americas south of the Río Bravo and Asia :-)