They've been protesting for 5 months now. From the start, pretty much everyone has said the same thing... lost cause, won't work, going to end badly, I mean... CHINA! What are they thinking? They have to lose.
Yet, it's been 5 months. 5 months, and they're STILL in the news. Remember those Yellow vest protests? Me neither. 100 people get mowed down in Iraq... in the news for a day or 2. How many people have died in HK? A massacre of, officially, nobody. They're still in the news, near every day, 5 months!
At some point, you have to give up on saying it's luck. They are doing something right. They are, in fact, winning. Against the Chinese Communist Party. Really.
The writing is on the wall, the date set. HK is going back to being part of China. The protesters know this. They know the CCP is trying to replace HK as a financial center, to make HK irrelevant. What are they going to do? They're going to drive a wedge between China and the West, making no city useful for the CCP. Each day, they raise the cost in integration with Western economies. If that wedge can damage the Chinese economy enough, they might even break the social contract between the CCP and the Chinese people, even bring the CCP down.
3 months ago, I was saying they're a lost cause. But. they're still fighting, still making progress. They just might do it. I suggest putting aide that question of how they're going to die. Maybe you should ask what happens if they win.
6
Many continue to comment on China's heavy handedness with HK, on the fact that the HK people just want to rule themselves and exist separately from China. But, China will have rule over HK shortly whether readers agree or not. And those in HK that believe that day won't come are delusional. I have a good friend living there and he intends to leave in the next 5 years. Two others that I worked with left within a year after Tienanmen Square, before the Brits left. They did this because they became convinced that China would never let HK exist as it's own country. They were right.
1
A fitting analogy is that Trump and others view our democratic institutions as an infection and institutional corruption is the cure. Hong Kong is analogous to our Democratic party but has moved on to violence as their human rights head down a similar road to those oppressed in Xinjiang.
In an editorial of November 3, the state-backed China Daily criticised the “wanton” attacks by “naive” demonstrators, calling the attacks “nothing more than adolescent hormones pumped up and primed by those willing to exploit them.”
The newspaper accused the young protesters of venting anger in front of Western media outlets that make headlines for sensational purposes. It sees no “noble cause” to engage in violence and dismisses the “grievances,” be they real or imagined.
It remains to be seen whether the youth in Hong Kong be forced to undergo a hormone treatment for - perhaps - mental disorder. This seems to be the narrative Beijing wants to sell to the world about the young protesters.
2
Call is to mind a regime that in some ways is kindred, and that can look at an extensive report showing extensive collusion and extensive obstruction and declare that it shows no collusion and no obstruction.
1
Ms. Kim's article is a timely reminder that the very foundations of the notion of 'Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness', was grounded in protest. Prior to this, the average citizen or group residing under a repressive authority had a very narrow set of options; they could either accede to the authorities, mount a rebellion or leave the premises. When ,however, our FF established that the legitimacy of protest was an essential ingredient to Freedom, it opened up a whole range of choices for individuals or groups who disagreed with their rulers, but didn't want to risk the gibbet or exile.
And 200 years later, thanks to the FF, we understand here in America and all over the world -yes, even including China- that those in power who are overly sensitive to protest, or who try to repress individuals who simply question authority, are probably up to no good and deserve to be challenged.
1
"...anyone attempting to split China will face “crushed bodies and shattered bones.”
I imagine he'll roll out the tanks to flatten everyone, like they did back at Tiananmen Square. Xi desires obedient citizen-slaves. Once you no longer obey, you must (in his mind) be culled from the herd.
He may also consider it a convenient excuse to mobilize the PLO to retake Hong Kong, put his own people in charge of the government there, and bring it back into the fold as a full (rather than independent) member of China.
2
When Britain signed the agreement in 1997 to cede control of Hong Kong back to China, the fuse was lit for this. The agreement says that its capitalist system cannot be changed through 2047 and that China's socialist policies cannot be implemented before then.
While its hand can be seen in various ways (attempts at some censorship, for example), China has been pretty much patiently biding its time. The agreement and the laws of Hong Kong and China are silent on what happens after 2047.
President Xi is an autocrat who, due to changes in Communist Party rules he engineered, will possibly be in power for life. He is not going to tolerate another Tiananmen Square and is not going to risk looking weak to Taiwan and other restless regions under Chinese control. And if China breaches the 1997 agreement, what exactly is Britain, the UN or any other international body going to do about it?
The writer Han Suyin described Hong Kong as existing on “borrowed time in a borrowed place”. Sadly, this seems more true than ever today. It seems difficult to see the status quo holding much longer, let alone through 2047.
13
@V N Rajan
"... it should also be recognised that neither the U K nor the U N nor any third party has any say in this matter...."
The CCP entered into an international treaty arrangement with the U.K. in 1985 that commits that nation to respect the liberal democratic self-governance of Hong Kong. The U.S. and every other country has a stake in the honoring of such treaties.
Let’s look at the history of the Chinese Communist Party, which is only 70 years old since 1949. Over four millions killed in the Land Reform, 1950. Forty millions died in the Great Leap Forward, 1959. More than seven millions killed during the Cultural Revolution between 1967 and 1977. Right, do you deny the Tiananmen Massacre? How about Falun Gong? Beijing is harvesting organs from Falun Gong members...
Before the CCP, KMT was in charge of China. KMT still exists in Taiwan. A party is not the same as a country.
Hong Kong is 177 years old since 1842. In 1992, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore were called the Four Little Dragons—The Spread Of Industrialization In East Asia. These are good links to learn about the history, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fMriboCeUs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong
3
Bejing has tons of smart options and historical wisdom that will prevent them from a crushing response. Firstly, by ignoring the protesters the city is divided along (for and against) lines. China is protecting the banks and Hong Kong monetary systems are working just fine. If the economy crashes further the banks will still be open but family wealth will disappear from ordinary shop and business owners. The banks will foreclose on real property and Bejing will own everything outright instead of just political power. Sovereign possibilities do not exist for the protesters as China controls banks, social security, electricity, water, police, medicine, identity cards, passports and education. Time marches on and Hong Kong citizenry wealth is going down the drain into the equity pockets of Bejing. China can easily watch and wait.
7
@terry brady
The CCP's debt is going up to the roof. The housing bubble crisis in mainland China is coming soon.
HK is the paradise for mainland Chinese and the CCP to get their money out from mainland China to HK and then to America, Canada, Australia and Europe...etc. There are restrictions to exchange from Renminbi to USD. But we can exchange from HKD to USD without restrictions. Google about the history between HKD and USD.
HK is indispensable to the continuing economic growth of the Communist China, especially with the downturn of economy in mainland now. "Aug 8, 2019 - About 70% of the capital raised on it is for Chinese firms, but strikingly ... Most Chinese foreign direct investment flows through Hong Kong" from economist. Look at what Alibaba is doing in HK, $13 billion HK stock sale this week. Lastly, HK has $433 billion of foreign reserves. So if the CCP has complete control of HK, their money’s problem might not be solved, but that’ll buy them sometime to make more money, especially USD. Who want Renminbi?
2
What are the protesters hoping to achieve? We can approve of what they are asking for and still consider their actions pointless. Are they raising awareness? China has media tightly controlled. Are they sparking a revolution? Hardly. Will they get their demands met? Of course not. So all they are doing is creating an experience, a set of people who protested together, who know and trust each other. Perhaps that will form the basis of some future action? Really the most effective thing they and those like them throughout China could do would be to join the "Communist Party" and work their way up. Someday maybe they could make China a social democracy. If that is the plan, perhaps the protests serve as a diversion?
2
@Robert David South
There is no "future action" in HK, the clock is ticking towards 2047 and it's now or never. The protesters know this. They don't expect to win but they feel they've nothing to lose. The Chinese Communist Party is attempting, succeeding in changing HK into a Chinese city, pushing aside the original HK Cantonese culture. They are losing their city, they will lose their city, unless they do something now. So, they fight. Wouldn't you?
If you knew that you were going to end up a second-class citizen of a Communist dictatorship, having to move to mainland China because you can't afford to live where you were born because it's filling up with rich people, driving up property values to the highest in the world, wouldn't you do something? People complain that the protests are wrecking HK. Yes, they are. Wouldn't you do the same?
So, they fight. They're experienced fighters, having done this in 2014. They learned that leaders are vulnerable, so now they have none. But, in doing so, they created something new.
They've leveraged technology and an always-connected youth culture to build a leaderless protest movement. It actually is leaderless, there really is no one in charge, and it's running circles around all that oppose them. It's why they've managed to keep protesting for all this time.
What many fail to realise is what the protesters have already achieved: Direct Democracy. It's going to spread. It's going to change the world.
15
@David English Rioting is rioting, and if you think burning shops, subway stations, even bus shelters (!?) qualifies as "direct democracy" or will serve as the foundation for a new and better society, I suggest you visit my hometown of Detroit, which still hasn't recovered from the riots of half a century ago.
One of the bitter ironies of Hong Kong youth feeling aggrieved because they can't afford to buy or even rent a home in the city of their birth is that this is a capitalist, not a communist problem. Allowing private enterprise to dictate housing policy is what has made Hong Kong an enclave for the super-rich. Just up the road and across the border in Shenzhen, which 30 years ago was a fishing village but now dwarfs Hong Kong, the government has committed to building a million units of affordable housing by 2035. Many Hong Kongers have chosen to live there and commute to work in Hong Kong, or vice versa. Many more routinely cross the border for shopping, socializing,or visiting family. They know this constant portrayal of China as some grim gulag simply does not jibe with reality, and that one can enjoy a good, albeit somewhat different, quality of life under either system. The constant fearmongering, not to mention distortions and downright lies about China, benefits only those whose ultimate aim is to provoke war with China, and should they succeed in that aim, the price that will be paid by us all is almost too terrible to contemplate.
1
@Larry Livermore Direct Democracy is a good enough name for the system they have devised to manage a million or so protesters. It works exceedingly well.
As for the results, I say take a long, hard look at them and ask yourself one question: Would I be reading and commenting on this if there was no violence, no destruction of property? Been over 5 months.
The only way the protesters can win is by raising the CCP's cost of interfering in HK's affairs. There is nothing in HK that can do that. As you say, the CCP has orchestrated new and bigger cities than HK in record time. They have no shortage of people wanting to live there. They could literally level HK, wipe it off the map, and then build and populate a new city to replace it. I expect they would jump at the chance to do is, if it didn't cost them you.
You, and I, and the others reading this are the cost to the CCP. Changing our minds, showing China for what it is, a totalitarian dictatorship, is the protester's goal. They are driving a wedge between the capitalist west and China. They are succeeding.
You have very accurately described what is going on in HK. The CCP is moving people in, squeezing people out. They are doing the same in Tibet and Xinjiang, using money and politics in the same way. They are making HK a Chinese city, and the locals are fighting back.
What is going on in HK is theatre. It serves a purpose in attracting and keeping world attention. The real battleground is here.
2
Truth is.....if rampaging protestors were running through NY, they would be arrested very quickly. Peaceful demonstrations are one thing.....mobs of people creating civic destruction is a whole other thing.
As far as I can see.....China has been very patient and reasonable towards the protestors ....... no matter what you think of the CCP as a whole.
2
I find that what is happening in Hong Kong has been very badly misrepresented in the western media. This same media outlet labels democratically-elected (and re-elected) Narendra Modi in India as a demagogue of sorts. Basically, any independent-minded of a major emerging economy will be slandered. After all, which countries' GDP will exceed America's in 20 years' time?
HK's issues do not fall within the jurisdiction of the Central Government in Beijing but rather the Legislative Committee in Hong Kong itself. While the events in Hong Kong have been reduced to some simplistic "freedom vs. oppression" struggle, a lot of the causal factors are economic. One in 6 university graduates in HK works an unskilled job while incomes for graduates have actually fallen since the 1980s even as the cost of living has soared.
A segment of Hong Kongers are also highly xenophobic as evidenced by the targeting of mainland Chinese who are Mandarin-speaking rather than Cantonese-speaking. I would think looking down on mainlanders and labelling them as "uncultured" is a consequence of Hong Kongers' gaining prosperity earlier than the rest of China.
And how many Americans would tolerate flights at international airports being diverted, roads being blockaded, and ceaseless disruptions to normalcy for months on end?
There is little Trump can do. The economic balance has long tilted in favour of China, which replaced the US as the largest trading partner of so many countries in the Asia-Pacific
16
@Jack Your statement re Modi is simplistic. He is, indeed, a demagogue. That he was democratically elected does not mean he is not a demagogue, as, of course, many demagogues are democratically elected. And the results of their election are often catastrophic for minority groups. I would be interested in your background and either the cultural or historical affinity which you have with Beijing. Personally, I strongly support Taiwan and think it disgraceful that our government and businesses prefer profit over a moral stance against Chinese bullying. And while I also would prefer that the protesters in HK be nonviolent, always, their cause in protesting the oppression of Beijing is admirable.
9
Those people arguing for a democratic China obviously has no knowledge of Chinese history. The way China came to be a country, and how religion and philosophy shaped its development. It is a huge country and extremely diverse. Xinjiang is as different from Shenzhen, as Afghanistan is from London. Hong Kong has a totally distinct identity again. The average HK high school student knows less about Chinese history than a kindergartener on the Mainland, and most of that is from period dramas on TV. It was the colonial government who decided prior to the handover to scrap Chinese History as a subject in schools, so as to prepare the territory for the handover. Another typical time bomb that they deploy time after time in their ex-colonies.
As the article stated, any attempt to reinstate this was seen as a communist ploy to brainwash Hong Kong youths, as if knowing your own country's history is somehow an affront to personal freedom. If China has a Western style parliament, with each region's deputy fighting for the best deal for his/her constituency rather than for the good of the country as a whole, we will have true political paralysis. If you think the EU is a mess, you have seen nothing yet. So realistically, there will not be a democratic China. There might be many democratic states if China were to break up one day, but it would more likely be a repeat of the Warring States period, ending with the Qin dynasty, and the first Chinese dictator.
@Erica Chan
"...The average HK high school student knows less about Chinese history than a kindergartener on the Mainland, and most of that is from period dramas on TV..."
You.re wrong. Hong Kongers are educated with the real Chinese History: Over four millions killed in the Land Reform, 1950. Forty millions died in the Great Leap Forward, 1959. More than seven millions killed during the Cultural Revolution between 1967 and 1977. HKers watched the Tiananmen Massacre in 1989. How about Falun Gong? Beijing is harvesting organs from Falun Gong members...
Do you remember Tibet? Jangling Li wrote a good book; she has articles on NY Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/world/asia/china-tibet-lhasa-jianglin-li.html
As for camps/jails. I suggest you read the "‘Absolutely No Mercy." It will give you an idea of what Xi Jinping's China like. BTW, the article is really good.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html
BTW, the CCP is only 70 years old since 1949. Before the CCP, KMT was in charge of China. KMT still exists in Taiwan. A party is not the same as a country.
Hong Kong is 177 years old since 1842. These are good links to learn about the history, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fMriboCeUs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong
3
Ms. Lim, we all fear escalating violence, Tiananmen Square redux these days in China. "Turmoil", "riot", "external black hands", the Hong Kong protests "subverting China" are ballooning into a full scale revolution against the Communist government of today's China and leader-for-life, Xi-Jinping.
China has been trying to increase its hegemony over Taiwan and the new territories in the South China Sea's Straits for years. Will Kim's North Korea ally itself with China to create a new communist state in Asia? Yes, there's an infection, a disease in China (in Xinjiang and other areas of the PRC), but it's not Hong Kong. Yes democracy in Hong Kong is posing an existential danger to China, just as the American Revolution, democracy, posed a danger to England in the 1700s. We look to the results of the seminal watershed election today in Hong Kong as a guide to China's future.
1
Author has been reading the press; does she have a point to make? There is “enough” excitable journalism, time for some insights as what the outcomes might be.
Police have made massive arrest, is there any prospect that that can lead to prosecutions and how can that occur as a technique to reduce violence when protestors now calling for release of all under curtailment? That is interesting problem.
All articles go back to the handback agreement between the UK and China. And never bother to question: how did Hong Kong end up under British rule in the first place? If you study history a little bit and follow trouble spots around the world, you will see that the death throes of the British Empire is metaphorically still ongoing. The corpse is well into rotting but the body was rotten enough that the animals feeding on the corpse were sickened. When a 5-thousand year idiology combined with a rising power with nuclear weapons collides with a remnant of a declining empire long past it's decline, dithering about pulling out of the EU, the conclusion is foregone. The only mystery is how many dead bodies and how many sent to reeducaion schools. Since the extradition law was held back, I suspect a lot more Dead bodies.
We should arm the HK protestors in their fight with the CCP as we armed the mujahideen in their fight with the Soviets -- with large numbers of Stinger missiles. Then we won't have to worry about winning the trade war.
1
So to summarize, the characterization of the initially largely peaceful protests as rioting by the authorities so enraged the protesters that they started rioting for real. How very mature of them. I know that the protesters are mostly young, but what are they, two years old? What is next? The authorities are now describing them as terrorists, so they are going to start mounting actual terrorist attacks? Suicide bombers maybe?
These protesters do not have the sense to realize that by resorting to violence, they are falling into a trap which has been set for them. The more violent they get, the easier it becomes for the government to ignore the merits of their demands and treat this as a purely law and order problem. They are making it easier for the government to mount a violent crackdown.
The only way to win against an oppressive regime with a monopoly on armed force is to seize the moral high ground. Each time a Hong Kong policeman assaults a protester, he should feel ashamed of himself and believe himself to be in the wrong. This is not going to happen if that policeman is having molotov cocktails thrown at him on a regular basis. You do not win a fight like this by killing all your opponents, you win by shaming your opponents into doing the right thing. How many molotov cocktails did Martin Luther King throw? Does anyone doubt that the protests he led were more effective?
2
In the end? Beijing will paint the walls with blood if they believe they have to. I don't have access to intelligence obviously but I would look for hard troops from the borders used to doing the dirty, hard jobs. Troops who will follow orders without question or hesitation. If they aren't in position now? They will be soon enough. The PRC will not tolerate what's going in HK much longer, Xi cannot afford to be seen has weak. The penalty for that is likely to lethal (literally).
several notes for my fellow commentators:
1) For those talking about Gandhi, A simple question: How far would Gandhi have gotten if the Germans of the time had been running India? Pacifist resistance only works if the other side isn't willing to use violence against the resisters. Anyone who thinks the PRC will hesitate should think again.
2) There is nothing, zero, zilch, the Weest can do for the protesters in HK. The PRC would view this (Correctly) has interference in their internal affairs. It would precipitate a war. And the bluntly the US (And wouldn't matter who was in office) isn't going to fight what would be a major war for HK. And it would have to be the US (no one else has the ability) It just isn't worth the major war that would result from US interference in the PRC's internal affairs
Right now I am watching ‘Dr Zhivago’ a movie I watch once a year for 53 years. Russian revolution.
The whole world including China and USA is moving towards internal violent change.
History always repeats...
The young, the poor and the old die.
Peace on Earth
1
China, which has written records going back 4,000 years, is abandoning its Middle Kingdom understanding that has been the consensus for millennia. China is attempting to become imperial, with investments in Africa, Asia and Latin America. The United States and Europe learned the folly of this foreign policy. It also resulted in a lot of terrible domestic policy in the States, including the Alien and Seditions acts and a rise in majority ethnic identitarianism.
China's government has only to blame itself. And when I say the government, I mean every single member of the ruling body, excepting no one, are more like the dogs they'd throw the name of.
This report is useful, though like many seems aimless at the end. But it does point out well how incapable the Chinese government is at taking care of its own people, which is who the Hong Kong protesters are. This is strictly the failure of the Chinese government to operate in an understanding manner.
"The cheaper the crook, that gaudier the patter"- Sam Spade from "The Maltese Falcon"
There are many similarities between Xi and Trump. They share the same penchant for grandiose, apocalyptic rhetoric when referring to those who disagree with them because they're both terrified that others will learn how precarious their rule is. Both men are devoid of ideology; Xi is about as much a communist as Trump is a liberal democrat. Its just the pursuit of pure power and adulation that motivates them. They each have their own state propaganda apparatus churning out lies, and a party of venal flunkies to back them up.
Xi's horrific "social credit score" seems like a success so far, because he can still put food on people's table, and becoming a docile consumerist robot still appears to be a worthwhile tradeoff, but the minute the CCP begins to falter in its promises, all bets are off. Revolutions begin, not when things are at their worst but when things are getting better, and suddenly take a turn for the worse; now you've actually had something taken away from you. I fully expect Xi to overreact because appearing powerful is more important than any of the lives he now dehumanizes as cockroaches.
2
The self-proclaimed Chinese intelligence officer Wang Liqiang recently stated in Australia that Chinese espionage and electoral interference in foreign countries is more effective and insidious than people might expect. He cited his own personal involvement in the Hong Kong kidnapping of Causeway Bay Bookshop owner Lee Bo in October 2015. Lee Bo was then taken to mainland China to be tortured and imprisoned for his perceived disloyalty to the Chinese Communist Party.
If the Chinese Communist Party is determined to conquer and destroy other nations, can there be any doubt that their efforts to crack down on "disloyal" Hong Kongers will be particularly brutal? Certainly there must be HK protesters already being savagely tortured in mainland prisons. But just as China decimated protesters in Tiananmen Square in June 1989, they will wait patiently, analyze and then unleash their fury on protesters in Hong Kong.
It is shameful and incomprehensible to me that the President of the United States will undoubtedly condone all of this through his silence while golfing.
The cure for China's problems would be to get rid of the current totalitarian president for life, and resume their extremely successful formula of allowing the Chinese people to have some independence and to reap the rewards of their own initiative. And the cure for Hong Kong in particular, would be for Bejing to honor the promises they made when the British left.
1
Over 500.000 HK Chinese hold Canadian Australian British and US passports so maybe they knew what was coming.
HK has become the poor cousin of China in terms of wealth. Unfortunately China does not allow freedom of expression which to them undermines the sanctity of the State. Political debate opens up too many voices of dissent?
The 1966 experience of Chinese Cultural Revolution shows what happens when the Red Guard take control throwing people off buildings to sweep away the intellectuals. China with 1,44 billion people faces huge social problems relating to corruption: HK tax dodgers may fall into that category.
As for handling Muslim regions; how to address terrorism with kid-gloves not something China willing to accept. As we have seen in the West with similar terrorist acts by Muslim extremist atrocities in Paris London Manchester Madrid Berlin Strasbourg Brussels Beijing and India.
1
Protests are the CURE for the infection of authoritarianism and dictatorship. We need a lot more of it. Like these Hong Kong citizens, I would risk my life for democracy. Without representative democracy, though, I would not be willing to give my life for this country. tRump is being pressured to veto the congressional bill that supports the Hong Kong protesters. That is disgusting. I am ashamed of this country allowing its "leader" to do such things. I support everything the Hong Kongers are doing.
1
China's corrupt, totalitarian government should be resisted as forcefully as it represses those in Hong Kong who seek to maintain their freedom, self-determination, and democracy.
3
China has made it plain clear that the “cure” to opposition is “re-education camps,” forced repatriation, jail or death. Their choice.
Let’s focus on WHY the protests are happening instead of getting bogged down in the details of the protests, graffiti and name calling.
China is a totalitarian dystopia. One can hardly be surprised that the people of Hong Kong, accustomed to freedom and democratic self-determination, would be willing to risk life and limb resisting absorption into such a nightmare.
3
It may be 2047 now.
1
"This phrase, alien in Hong Kong, comes straight from the Communist Party lexicon. Chairman Mao once decreed that “enemies of the people” do not actually belong to the category of people. They are, effectively, nonpeople."
That sounds familiar. Trump: "Media (the free press) is the enemy of the American people." Now, which people are those? The 40% of sedated and hypnotized American people who elected Trump?
And, I guess it would follow that all those civil servants testifying against Trump in the impeachment hearings are "nonpeople."
While Trump goes through this dog-and-pony act with tariffs (taxes on the American people) and China, let's not forget that we used to call China: "Communist China."
Still is...
1
It’s time to read Hannah Arendt’s works once again. The Chinese Communist Party’s playbook of authoritarian control in HK is nothing new. This is stuff that Arendt had already explored in her exhaustive study of politics in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
In my understanding of Arendt, two things in Louisa Lim’s article stand out: the state media’s depiction of HK protesters as “cockroaches” and the function of propaganda.
Using “cockroaches” to characterize protesters is a form of dehumanization. Its aim is to strip human beings of their rights to any kind of legal protection. It forces them into a sub-human, stateless category that does not deserve sympathy and recognition as individuals. They become “superfluous” and “rightless,” as Arendt describes.
Propaganda, the best friend of censorship and alternative history, is a signature practice of authoritarian governments. It breeds confusion, compliant thinking, and apathy — conditions that authoritarian rulers exploit to their benefit.
While Arendt’s writings about authoritarianism belong to another time and place, we know through recorded history how that time ended and what became of those places. We know about the propaganda sold by authoritarian governments about the millions of “rightless” and “superfluous” who ultimately lost their lives.
3
No doubt about it - the Chinese Communist Party blaming the Hong Kong protests on the CIA, is as ridiculous as the American Democratic Party blaming the 2016 Trump victory on Putin's agents.
Instead of Hong Kong China imagine that these events were taking place in San Juan Puerto Rico.
Hong Kong's special status is a legacy of British Empire imperialism.
And that was made possible by ethnic minority Manchu Qing Dynasty rule over ethnic Han majority China that led to civil war at the dawn of the last century.
Then the Japanese Empire invaded and occupied China killing 30 million Chinese. By far the deadliest holocaust of World War II.
China's 'victory' in World War II led to the resumption of the civil war which Mao Zedong and his followers won with the nationalists fleeing to Taiwan and other places.
Mao Zedong's disastrous Great Leap Forward, Hundred Flowers and Cultural Revolution campaigns led to famine, imprisonment and a backwards police state until Richard Nixon began the thaw.
Deng Xiaoping was the coup de grace. Deng implemented socialism with Chinese characteristics aka capitalism. Along with democracy with Chinese characteristics aka a collective term limited leadership.
America has 25% of the world's prisoners with 5% of humans. And 40% of the prisoners are persecuted black Americans. Trump's America is openly hostile to Mexicans and Muslims.
What is happening in Hong Kong is not the Martin Luther King led civil rights movement. Nor is it anything like what Mahatma Gandhi accomplished in India nor Nelson Mandela in South Africa.
Beijing may have misjudged the extradition matter. But it's fears are reasonable.
2
@Blackmamba
Excellent comments but perhaps collectivism is the antithesis to true democracy, as opposed to a Leninist regime.
And yet, President Xi Jinping is a "Friend" of Trump, so what are we to make of both?
1
Americans should stand in support of the Hong Kong protestors and their fight for democracy and the rule of law. Why? Because China is nation that makes the Ted Bundy look like Mr. Rogers. An international tribunal comprised of doctors and medical statisticians determined this summer that China is selling the organs of executed political prisoners (Uighurs, House Christians, Falun Gong) and selling them to foreign buyers, and that there are sixty to a hundred thousand of these transplant murders a year. Buyers can 'order' these organs with just a few days notice, meaning the prisoners are killed specifically for their organs. They are also keeping a million Uighurs in concentration camps where they are subject to summary execution, rape, and medical experimentation. They are brutal and amoral totalitarians and aggressive and expansionist. They have and ruthlessly use the tools of mass surveillance and are far ahead of us in AI. They are incredibly dangerous. Just as Russia is now interfering in America, so too is China, as witness the recent NBA events. Painful though it will be, America needs to commence a total economic boycott of Chinese goods. It's not just moral outrage--if we don't take down China now, while we still can, America will soon be another Hong Kong.
2
Dehumanizing metaphors that evoke a sense of contamination and disgust have a terrible history. During the holocaust, Jews were referred to as “vermin,” and during the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were referred to as “cockroaches.” The organization Genocide Watch has even called dehumanizing language one of the precursors of genocide.
Voltaire said : Those who can make you believe in absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
1
If ideological infection poses an existential threat to your ideas... maybe your ideas are bad?
2
The comparisons to the language of the Nazis should be highlighted. The nazis also used the term "volkskörper" meaning the body of the people and then equated the "undesired" elements to disease. If history has taught us one thing, then if language like this is used, it most likely will end in catastrophe.
1
When consciencious protesters, anarchist rioters and opportunist thugs are thrown together in a confined place, all narratives of event are subject to manipulation, depends on the language used and the expounders' backgrounds and motives.
Also, unlike our presumtuous English speaking evangelists, who think they've figured out the answers for all mankind, China never assigned themselves the task of curing aspects of human nature. All they've been striving for is, to contain the harm that unbridled human nature could inflict on the broader society, of theirs.
The brave people of Hong Kong, I hope know better, to see the USA as a beacon that they can look to for support. We are burdened with a toddler king that proves daily that he is unfit to be where he is. Besides he can’t support any non white peoples!
1
Human survival on this planet has now become a battle between two systems of thought and governance; one the American now under President Trump and the Republican Party based on Western Neo-Liberalism and the other the Chinese under Premier Xi Jinping based on a restating of Marxist Socialism. The implications for the future of human civilization are profound. In competition with the American are 1.388 billion Chinese citizens as well as those in Asian nations outside of China. Additionally there are the so called “Belt and Road Initiative” nations. As this battle of ideas is unfolding, globally American power militarily and by extension its “Western” value system is diminishing. One reason is that the American Neo-Liberal system of belief gives full rein to the dark neurotic psychotic side of the human impulse.
We see this now on the streets of Hong Kong,
www.InquiryAbraham.com
@David Anderson
There's a new game in town... Direct Democracy.
The Anarchists tried it and failed. Too slow. It couldn't compete against societies with leaders. They are right though, leaders are fundamentally evil, a scourge on humanity. Written human history has been the competition between various leadership systems, mostly to the detriment of the people living under them. Unfortunately, leaders have been necessary, leaving us with a choice between evils, if we're lucky or willing to fight for that choice. That is, until now.
What most people don't seem to see is that the HK protesters are leaderless. They have NO LEADER. And, they've been protesting for 5 months. They have no leader. They are running circles around the police, Lam, and Xi. They have NO leader, no one is planning anything, deciding anything. No committee. They ALL decide together. All they have is a system. The system works. It works very, very well. It is spreading.
When they say "revolution in our times" it's going to be an all-cap REVOLUTION and "our" is all of us, every government. Direct Democracy is going to take over, everywhere.
This particular system will likely fail. It has many weaknesses. But, there will be stronger ones that follow. It is inevitable.
There's a new system now. Leaders are simply too corruptible, too slow, and too inefficient to compete. We don't need them anymore. The King is dead, long live the rest of us.
1
@David English
Right on !
Ask for my Blog 73 The American Problem at
[email protected]
Beijing's language reflects the precariousness of their position. The PRC conforms to no ideology or system that could legitimate their rule. By abandoning communism in all but name, they have dropped the pretense that the common person has any voice in government.
After Tiananmen, they dropped to their knees and begged the people to not take revenge in exchange for the promise of a Western-type consumer lifestyle. The CCP purchased the acquiescence of the population, and by doing so, they placed the existential bourgeois threat right in their midst, in the ranks of their own families and colleagues.
Of course Beijing must threaten, because they have left no other form of persuasion. With no identifiable contract between government and governed, they are essentially a criminal state. HK, Xinjiang, etc are not anomalies. The fabric is fraying, inevitably.
What does Beijing offer HK? What incentive, what face, have they presented? Hong Kong was already wealthy and highly developed. Beijing brings only a heavy yoke, a firewall and the guarantee of administrative corruption in daily affairs.
Isn't it ironic that China's words and language paint a more accurate picture of what's going on? What else do you call those who set civilians on fire? Ambush and stab off-duty police officers? Set off roadside bombs using chemicals stolen from university laboratories? It is the NYTimes that commits journalistic malpractice by whitewashing these rioters as "protesters and freedom-fighers."
2
Unfortunately, comparisons to Nazism are fairly apt. The language used comparing people to diseases, cockroaches, etc. is shockingly similar. Sending people to camps, that seem to create a great many corpses is another similarity. NAZI Germany and Modern China both seem to have a regressive use of violence while claiming to be making progress, or becoming more powerful. However, the course of history for the past several thousand years, is that progress coincides with reduced violence, and increased compassion.
The Violence Paradox means that these methods will decrease the likelihood of progress and dominance for China. China is tragically self destructive.
1
It makes much more sense to read twitters posted by people with different backgrounds who live in Hongkong than read all these one-sided NYTimes reports.
What a shame for a world famous newspaper.
What NYT recently cares about, is in fact only one thing:
Criticizing Trump all the time and pretending there’s no any other voice worth being heard. (I am sorry, you are a newspaper, not a propaganda agency.)
— so is with the protest in Hongkong.
I am sorry for the Hongkong Police. They suffer the most between the political pressure from mainland and the local crazy protesters.
But yes, NYT can not find the police good. That’s just the rule.
2
@X
Here is the twitter's post: Enzo Lenze said "I’m more afraid of the HK police, since they are unpredictable." He is a journalist from Germany who worked at the ISIS-Frontlines.
https://twitter.com/ennolenze/status/1193423375403601920
Let's look at what the PLA-style HK Police did to the pregnant woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goyl5AAeARU
2
Unrest in Hong Kong is about people wanting good government. The same is true concerning the corruption of the Los Angeles courts as the "LAPD Crime buster vigilante Facebook" scandal. Three members of the Los Angeles Police Department Command, (3 LAPD Brass) were members of a secret Vigilante Facebook Cime-buster group in West Hills area of Topanga, San Fernando Valley. And Yes, The deputy los Angeles City Attorney, or topanga Neighborhood Prosecutor was also a member of the crimebuster or Conoga park neighborhood watch vigilante anti-homeless group. Both Los angeles Mayor Garcettii and Los Angeles City Attorney Feuer and California Attorney General Becerra now stay completely silent on issue refusing to investigate formal complaint files 8/1/18. Why, to cover-up LAPD Brass Crime onto Los Angeles homeless.LAPD Chief Moore and LAPD Deputy Chief kris Pitcher now use LAPD Disinformation to deflect.
1
Regarding the linguistic gymnastics on both sides in this conflict, I would suggest that anyone throwing Molotov cocktails or shooting arrows are not "protesters," they're clearly rioters.
1
@joe Here's a short quote from a Winston Churchill speech regarding a British Massacre in India.
"Armed men are in a category absolutely different from unarmed men. An unarmed crowd stands in a totally different position from an armed crowd. At Amritsar the crowd was neither armed nor attacking. [Interruption.] I carefully said that when I used the word "armed" I meant armed with lethal weapons, or with firearms. There is no dispute between us on that point."
That was near 100 years ago, yet the entire speech is oddly appropriate for HK and China today.
Bottom line, we've come to accept a certain class of weapon allowed by protesters. Going beyond that, they are an army. Molotov cocktails are, in fact, protester weapons. Arrows are not, and we shall see if they view this as a mistake or they embrace being an army. There appears to be some debate on that happening now.
As to being a peaceful protest or a riot? Depends on how you define riot. Their destruction is purposeful, targeted. It is not random violence nor destruction.
In my opinion, they are using the HK police and property damage as fuel to keep the world's attention, and they are doing a very good job of it.
This "enemies of the people" things seems to be gaining traction. You can't put a good zombie down. And POTUS does not have it in him to complain about reclassifying people as "cockroaches". He can only dream of being the local Exterminator.
We are in a world of hurt and many martyrs as democracy dies. HongKong protestors will be murdered by China .
Trump and Putin caused this to occur.
Presaged by years of terrible politics and awful presidents in our country.
China’s emperors are ruthless. All those empty cities they built in China are there for prison colonies. So far Muslims have been rounded up. Dissenters are next.
I am so sad for our planet.
1
The story echos The Washington Post story of Zumrat Dawut, a Uighurs woman who survived internment and an unwanted sterilization, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/11/17/she-survived-chinese-internment-camp-made-it-virginia-will-us-let-her-stay/?arc404=true.
What Hong Kongers are fighting is just to prevent going through the same terrible experiences Uighurs have been suffering now in Xinjiang.
3
We won’t do anything but wag our fingers, not when they slaughter students nor when they invade Taiwan.
Anti China narratives are very convenient to make because of today’s geopolitical reality, but intellectually cheap and pathetic. China has a lot to change and learn but Hong Kong cannot be degenerated into a lawless place where rioters attack people who hold different views, vandalize public facilities, burn commercial establishments of China related businesses and beat people who speak Mandarin. More shamelessly, biased western media give those lawless rioters the glorious name of “protestors”. Shame on all of them and on the author who is anything but a liberal, democratic thinker.
1
The pirates at the top of the Chiinese Communist Party have been waiting for an excuse to take off the kid gloves and subjugate Hong Kong, harshly and permanently.
Smart Hong Kongers, are already gone.
Too bad the Brits lost their nerve and let it go back.
The Chinese communist party will crush all who challenge it and all who it through Emperor Xi fest with no pity and no heart.
Old news.
But most comments don’t grasp these are commies in charge.
America is like Canada..Dead to free speech and thought and can't be bothered being a champion to the oppressed ...COMMUNIST China owns Canada and the USA is next... Be warned if your not a fellow communist you in fact are an infection that will be removed and their pals in the USSR and IRAN will be more than happy to help eradicate the infected ones...YOU...
@Dave
A tad exaggerated. China has no future. It’s demographics are like Japan, Germany, and Italy. Not to mention authoritarianism always fails.
PRC trolls are in abundance on this board tonight.
3
I would like to see protests for Democracy start up now all around China. That would be poetic justice. Lock all the bully commies up. No one should be afraid for decades it is bad for mental health.
1
Maybe this is how it all should end. China imposing its red fascism on its subjects and neighbors cannot end well. I cannot believe the 1930s are coming back again. God help us all.
1
Blah blah blah China bad HK police bad blah.
...at least HK police doesn't burn people that disagree with them alive, and mock them on social media after. HK police also don't stab each other in the neck.
If you ask me, anyone who still supports the protests at this point deserve to be called shills, members of the penny posse, led by the nose by a perverse interpretation of "democracy".
2
@Jean-Marie
Anything that weakens China, the EU, or any other terrible anti democratic state is good.
HK is set to end up with freedom's handmade, "slavery".
The Chinese communist party very well knows that student activism can lead to much bigger protest movements that can topple governments. The party itself originated from student movements and, by historical chance and as a consequence of foreign interventions, rose to power after WW2. The Japanese invasion destroyed most of the nationalist Kuomintang forces. In turn, the Japanese were defeated due to US intervention. While the communists have been busy re-writing this history, and use the constant drone of media influence to feed their false patriotic narrative, the communists only played a minor role in the liberation of China. Communism, and the CCP's fascism that replaced it are both ideologies imported from the West. There is nothing original there. As always fascism is initially directed inward, towards ethnic and religious minorities and democratic sections of the society, and, as we see now, more and more outward and will inevitably result in war.
Looking at the words used by the Chinese officials to describe the protesters one could conclude that Trump, who throws pejorative adjectives around without caution, has an international following, not just the red states.
1
A little background on me so the reader understands the context of my comment. My dad's side was KMT soldiers the northeast and were fleeing invading Japanese, then the communists, ending in Taiwan. My mom's side was landowner from southwest China not invaded by Japan, but had to flee the communists, ending in Hong Kong, then Taiwan. I was born in Taiwan and raised in Los Angeles.
Hong Kong's LegCo needs to step up to resolve the protests. Trade economic concession for political submission. Frame it this way to the protesters. Let's all just focus on economic prosperity for the remaining 26 years of the 50 year autonomy. Then hopefully folks would have enough saved to emigrate.
A crucial step the LegCo must take now is bring down the cost of housing. Buying is 20x income and renting is 70% of income (according to SCMP). There's no way to save with that kind of crushing housing cost. Just build, build, build. So even ordinary people can save. Surely the mainland wouldn't object to housing development. And probably would say good riddance to dissenters leaving.
I doubt a democratic mainland will happen in my lifetime. Emigration is the best compromise for those yearning democracy. But let me close on a hopeful note. My family applied to enter the US in 1979, when the US ended recognition of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan). In the 40 years since, Taiwan has become a vibrant democracy. Maybe the mainland will change too.
15
@William Fang Building more and more housing in what is an already crowded area seems , to me at least, with limited knowledge of the geography, only a partial solution. What is needed, it seems to me, is great restriction on immigration from the mainland, which is, from what I have read, the source of the population growth and consequent pressure on housing and jobs. And my sympathies are totally with the protesters but they should stay with marches and refrain from disruption and destruction. This will turn opinion against them.
1
@William Fang -- Good to read your take on China. I fear for Taiwan. I think tRump will betray you.
1
I don't think mainland Chinese will transit to democracy. See what has happened in Xinjiang and the unrest in HKG the past months. It is the answer. Billion of mainland Chinese have been brainwashed for decades and now they hate Taiwanese and Hong Kongers.
2
This just has to play out. There are contradictions in Hong Kong society that is now resolving itself. It’s fascinating to watch:
“The power of the protests is that it promises to end at last all this tantalizing uncertainty by fusing these contradictory moods into a single emotion—the pleasurable self-pity in which one can feel at once horribly hard done by and exceptionally grand. Its promise is, at heart, a liberation, not from China, but from the torment of an eternally unresolved conflict between superiority and inferiority.”
6
The Hong Kong protests are fundamentally different from Tiananmen Square. The Tiananmen students were supported by a significant portion of the Chinese population. The Hong Kong protesters have virtually NO support in mainland China.
If Hong Kongers want a more democratic government, they will have to join forces with pro-democracy groups in other parts of China. There is simply no way that a movement of less than 8 million poorly armed people can take on a country of 1.4 billion people with a very strong military.
This strategy of joining forces among cities was successful in the 1911 revolution that overthrew the Qing Dynasty. One city cannot defeat all of China. A better plan is needed if the objective is democracy (vs. martyrdom).
10
@ShenBowen
Change will come when fission develop within the CCP; that was in process in 1989 but Deng won.
4
@wsmrer: Yes, I agree. Rather than 'joining forces with pro-democracy groups', I probably should have suggested 'working within the CCP as a liberalizing force'.
1
@ShenBowen
Ghandi proved that peaceful revolution was possible. The British had overstayed their welcome. China also removed the British after the opium war. HK is very different; HK is part of China. To some extent there is no possible compromise for China; with the Taiwan question also in conflict with China.
China can not grant HK full or half independence. As a comparison England strongly against Scottish independence. The Scottish referendum included some various contentious claims by London to get the right result. After BREXIT Scotland will demand independence; maybe Ireland united as a bonus.
HK if given self-rule would be an invitation for another US garrison like Taiwan and Japan. Taiwan would declare their independence. For Trump to claim he stopped the "obliteration" of HK raises questions of US links to the rebellion as if they know the motivation or controllers of this revolution?
Where does this conflict between Beijing and Hong Kong lead? Does Hong Kong think it will become an independent state? Does anyone think Beijing will not ultimately gain control? It's not even a question of negotiated compromise, Beijing must eventually win, so what would they negotiate, what compromises would they feel a need to make? I suppose the only question is one of 'style', will Beijing regain control by aggressive tactics, or exhibit patience and let things die out quietly--in the end the outcome must be the same.
6
@Ronald B. Duke
No compromise or negotiation is needed by Hong Kong until the end of the Basic Law (2047). The fact that Bejing wants to take over Hong Kong 23 years before that tells us of the greed and lack of integrity of the CCP.
15
@Ronald B. Duke ...the same might have been said of those american colonists against the British Empire...or numerous other protests down history...The CCP is not a monolith as it weighs its options. I'll agree right now it doesn't look good for HK, and we might question the their tactics, but you seem to suggest their protest is futile and I question that.
5
@Ronald B. Duke Where does it end?
It ends by demonstrating to the Capitalist world that business with China is a really bad idea, that the Chinese Communist Party will not play fair, that they've been dangling that billion-plus consumer carrot for too long and it's never going to really happen, not under the CCP.
It ends by isolating the Chinese economy, by damaging that economy, and by breaking the social contract between the CCP and the people of China.
It ends when the people of China cast off the CCP and gain their freedom.
It ends when the protesters, having been driven into exile by the CCP, return home to their city, a free city in a free China.
Can't happen? Could people in HK protest for 5 months straight and get away with it? That happened, and still is.
The CCP has been around for all of 70 years now. There are people in China that own cars that are older. They try to make it seem like they're inevitable, invincible, destined to rule China for eternity. They are none of these things.
The protests in HK will come to be know as the CCP's Battle of Midway. Not the end, but the beginning of it. The CCP will be shown to not be invincible, inevitable. They will not have the largest economy in the world. They will not dominate Asia. They will eventually disintegrate. Eventually, the people of China will be free of them.
Irrespective of what happens in HK, that is how this ends.
22
What is China's cure? The education of the young generation under correct agenda.
No country (or territory) in the world teaches their kids in school using foreign language except HK. No country (or territory) educates their kids without knowing the history of the motherland except HK. No country (or territory) allow new citizen pledge their allegiance using foreign languages except HK. These are just few of the examples.
It is a tragedy that HK youth rebel due to various reasons such as lack of opportunities, affordable housing, and future job prospect. However, HK is practicing capitalism in a democratic system. Don't blame mainland China for her own faults. The success as well as failure of HK can be attributed to the ten biggest families in HK using & exploiting capitalism to the extreme. They have to take greater social responsibility as well as loyalty to the people in general.
4
@Usok
"...No country (or territory) educates their kids without knowing the history of the motherland except HK."
Hong Kongers are educated with the real Chinese History: Over four millions killed in the Land Reform, 1950. Forty millions died in the Great Leap Forward, 1959. More than seven millions killed during the Cultural Revolution between 1967 and 1977. HKers watched the Tiananmen Massacre in 1989. How about Falun Gong? Beijing is harvesting organs from Falun Gong members...
Do you remember Tibet? Jangling Li wrote a good book; she has articles on NY Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/world/asia/china-tibet-lhasa-jianglin-li.html
As for camps/jails. I suggest you read the "‘Absolutely No Mercy." It will give you an idea of what Xi Jinping's China like. BTW, the article is really good.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html
2
China’s government is authoritarian. In the fullness of time, tanks or not, the Hong Kong protests will end, peacefully or not. In the end, the Chinese people will decide whether the economic advances made over the last generation are worth the cost in foregoing the marginal increases in freedom enjoyed by those outside of the Chinese government’s orbit an jurisdiction. I’m betting that current conditions will persist, protests aside, for the foreseeable future.
1
We in America always swoon at the prospect of "demcracy in China".
We interpret riots in Hong Kong as evidence that our dreams of "democracy in China" are not unfounded.
We Kid Ourselves.
.......
Chinese Society has 5000 years of indoctrination, training, application, and refinement. Its interlocking systems of philosophy, bureaucracy, finance, planning, etc...have crystalized into what Chinese people see as a "perfect" system.
.....
Plus.....China plans long term....with empty modern cities at the western periphery of the Middle Kingdom. My guess is that soon, masses of protestors will be transferred to some of these new cities to begin new productive lives contributing to the future of China.
6
@Wherever Hugo
You are aware that China’s demographics are as bad as Japan, Germany, Italy? China is doomed to old age.
1
What is happening in Hong Kong has little to do with what is happening in Xinjiang. Tianenmen is far more instructive. Xinjiang is an ethnic and religious dispute. Tianenmen and Hong Kong both involved anti-government protests. There isn't much concern that what is happening in Xinjiang could spread. Anti-government protests, by contrast, could happen anywhere. The harsh treatment of those in Hong Kong, like Tianenmen, is intended to send a message to anyone who is like-minded.
4
@michjas
Compare to how protesters would be treated in Arizona, NY or DC, HK protesters have been treated with kids gloves.
This opinion article has perspective and views that do not attempt to defend the views espoused by Xi and his supporters. It is biased, like most opinions on controversial subjects.
Looking at the comments here, most critics note this level of violence would not be accepted or tolerated in America, etc. It’s not. Protests in America and Hong Kong often lead to arrests.
The issue here is, what should happen in the chaotic scenario where the hostile government is taking over your state, removing your human rights, and that state is the national government, fully in control of the military?
America has seen chaos like that, but it was not in the papers much. Remember the chaos after Hurricane Sandy? There probably was looting, there were rescues, but there were also police killing black civilians and destroying journalists’ evidence.
When the state (HK) unwinds its democratic norms, and simply jails peaceful protest leaders for multi-year terms (as happened a few years ago), there’s a crisis in civil society. How should citizens protect their families from their government?
If they protest peacefully, and organize, and negotiate, negotiators go to jail. Without leaders, how can they negotiate? Without protesting, how can they defend their most basic rights? If they are peaceful, they are jailed, and if they are not, they sustain the movement, but at great risk.
What side would you want to be on? It’s a personal question. It’s fine to prefer security, but face the crisis.
5
I'm pretty sure we all know what the 'cure' is going to be - it will be an ancient one, long ago discredited; bloodletting.
15
There are parallels between what China aces with Hong Kong and what the Soviet Union faced in 1968 with Czechoslovakia. In both cases it was not so much the actual internal actions of the entities that concerned the imperial power but, rather, the example that was/is being set.
The liberalization effected in Czechoslovakia was not occurring in spite of but through the Communist Party. As well, Czechoslovakia was intending to essentially and voluntarily federate, recognizing the differences between the Czech and Slovak peoples. If they got away with that, it would clearly send a message to a number of subject peoples within the Soviet Union that they both had a right and could try to effect their own self-determined national aspirations. That was something that posed an existential threat to the rationale for the Soviet Union's existence.
If Hong Kong gets to chart its own future, it will set a "bad example" for Tibetans, Uighurs, and other subject peoples of the Han majority. This is something that Xi's government will not allow, as it would pose an existential threat to the Han Leninist control of the current imperial definition of China.
Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia (Czechoslovakia was an outgrowth of WW I) had no history of military aggression, serving as a doormat for other European powers on their way elsewhere. The Soviets after losing 17 million people in World War II, were still anxious about a weak link in the Warsaw Pact's barrier to aggression from the West.
9
@Steve Fankuchen: Your analogy is a stretch given the significant differences between Hong Kong and Czechoslovakia, which was not simply an outgrowth of WWI, but specifically of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, not of the Russian Empire nor of the Soviet Union. So Russia never had the same sense of national reckoning over Czechoslovakia that weighs heavily every day in Beijing's political reality with Hong Kong.
Also, during its incarnation between the Treaty of Versailles of 1919 and the Munich Agreement of 1938, Czechoslovakia was considered one of the world's model democracies through its own ingenuity. Hong Kong was ripped from China as part of the Treaty of Nanking in 1842 and for more than a century had the British Empire occupying its territory. It never shared Czechoslovakia's opportunity to establish its own national identity as an independent state even if that only lasted between the WW's.
The only thread one can commonly adduce between these two examples is that power never cedes willingly. What a revelation!
Now in post-communist Czechia and Slovakia, we see the legacy of pre-communist democracies. For Hong Kong, the very notion that they could be returned to China under a "one country; two systems" arrangement was a fantasy from the start. As Thomas Hobbes noted: "Hell is truth seen too late."
Sadly, this hell is being paid, yet again, by the people of Hong Kong, and there is worse to come. The West will be powerless to stop it.
3
Can't understand something. In 1997 didn't mainland agree to specific condition for HK governance? These extradition laws don't they violate the understanding o the agreement?
5
@David
The extradition laws do not violate any agreements or the 1C2S arrangement.
2
@Jason
Says who? Please provide proof and links.
Yes, they do violate that agreement, David.
But Xi doesn't care.
He wants to make Chinese dictatorship great again...and he is.
Xi expects Hong Kong to fall in line with his dictatorship.
2
It begins as a protest against a perceived injustice. It is quickly joined by persons having various delusions, prejudices, and perceptions. It becomes a mob. The mob discovers the power to disrupt and destroy. Day be day, the mob hacks away the social and economic foundations of the community.
Investors and tourists flee the tumult in the street and the daily disruption of surface and air transportation. The stock market tumbles. The economy wanes and collapses.
The Western media calls it pro-democracy though I can't recall any democracy that arose from disorder and rioting.
For certain, the rioting in Hong Kong is anti-China. Strange, since Hong Kong's prosperity over the last century was built on serving as the front door to mainland China.
For certain, a public protest in the streets is an infection that, if untreated, can become a mob that turns to senseless riots and self destruction. The "pro-democracy" mobs in Hong Kong teach us once again that rebellion and anarchy are not paths to stability and prosperity.
14
@AynRant if no investments from HKG and Taiwan since 1980S, mainland China will be the same as Russia which has been lack of capital from its expats. While Teng opened China market, the western countries were reluctant to explore the new market. Hong Kongers have contributed lot before Bill Clinton let China as member of WTO.
4
Lol the USA arose from disorder and rioting.
1
@AynRant Given your lack of familiarity with the facts of the Hong Kong struggle as well as history of civil disobedience in general I take it you are not from either Hong Kong, the USA, or any Western civilization.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but temper it with the recognition your perspective is simplistic and limited as a result.
3
Since Russia has so many hands in so many things, any chance they are meddling here. Not that the protestors are wrong or anything.
1
@Dundeemundee Nope.
@Dundeemundee
There is a man in Australia who claims the protests were infiltrated and meddled with by Chinese operatives.
The fact is that neither the US nor any other power will come to the aid of Hong Kong. Nobody has the will to challenge China. Its victory in the matter of Hong Kong and arenas of strife is but a matter of time.
What are we going to do, endanger our source of iPhones and cheap TVs? Heaven forfend!
6
@ridgeguy it’s not that countries don’t have the will. By using game theory and other experiments to try different paths of assisting Hong Kong and Taiwan, it’s real easy to determine that all paths ended in nuclear war.
4
@ridgeguy I think you exaggerate. It isn't will that is lacking, but importance. Unfortunately, many see the HK protests as an internal affair and underestimate how potently symbolic these protests are for democracy.
4
@James R Dupak A bit odd and scary as well because currently our recognized democratic institutions and current governments seem uninterested in democracy themselves. What hope does HK have in looking towards countries like the US or the UK for help? Various forms of protests are ongoing around the globe as we speak and comment trying to reestablish some semblance of democracy while populists seem intent of ripping it all apart.
1
In the past, Hong Kong and Singapore have been the major hubs in East Asia. All along, it has been the Chinese government's desire to make Shanghai one of these hubs - perhaps replacing Hong Kong. Consequently, in my view, they can wait it out - let Hong Kong "kill" itself, while preventing the unrest from spreading to the mainland. Time is clearly on their side and they will use it prudently. The protesters cannot win - I'm not sure that they have any idea what "winning' means at this point. The protests will die down and Hong Kong will be permanently damaged, never to be the same again.
3
@JWH Yes, the Chinese Communist Party wants to replace HK with Shanghai, or any other city they can manage. But, doing that depends on Western acceptance of a new place to do business.
The HK protesters know this. They know HK is going to be irrelevant. So, they protest. They're trying to drive a wedge between China and the West such that NO CITY is that hub.
They aren't shouting "If we burn, you burn with us" for nothing.
They know time is on the side of the CCP. That's why the protests are continually escalating, staying in the news. The goal is to not let the CCP grind them down slowly, to not give them that time.
You have to admit, they're doing a pretty good job of it.
6
@JWH Shanghai will replace Hong Kong while The CCP allow the people in mainland surf internet freely. Also, do you think the Beijing government with a good record of honoring the agreement they signed. What has happened in HKG recently is the CCP did not respect the international treaty.
2
@JWH
Oh well, like the CCP will allow that. HK is indispensable to the continuing economic growth of the Communist China, especially with the downturn of economy in mainland now. "Aug 8, 2019 - About 70% of the capital raised on it is for Chinese firms, but strikingly ... Most Chinese foreign direct investment flows through Hong Kong" from economist.https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/08/08/hong-kong-remains-crucially-important-to-mainland-china
Look at what Alibaba is doing in HK, $13 billion HK stock sale this week. If you want to know why Shenzhen and Shanghai can't replace HK, please read about the United States–Hong Kong Policy Act of1992, which gives Hong Kong a special status separate from the rest of mainland China with regard to tariffs and visa restrictions. https://www.businessinsider.com/mitch-mcconnell-china-review-1992-hong-kong-policy-act-2019-8
BTW, the CCP's debt is going up to the roof. The housing bubble crisis in mainland China is coming soon.
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The distorted coverage of HK protests by US media is fueled by its geopolitical interests. The underlying problems behind the HK protests - some of world's worst economic inequailty and dismal future opportunities for HK youth who graduate from mediocre or worse schools mostly unable to speak Mandarin or English facing vigorous competition from their often more highly qualified mainland counterparts are not the same as the events that triggered the protests - a misguided extradition treaty intro and growing angry Cantonese HK nativism.
However, the responsibility for this perfect storm for generating unrest can be squarely placed at the feet of the earlier British regime and the HK gov which has run HK's domestic affairs since 1997 - not Beijing.
So the HK protests which have met with remarkable restraint given their violence is of a piece with current unrest in places like Chile where gov responses to much less disruption over a far shorter time frame have been much harsher - at least 20 protesters are dead and over 250 people have been reported blinded by gov forces firing "pellets" eye level into the crowds. But in depth coverage of serves no geopolitical interest.
Nor is it geopolitically convenient to recognize the 1.4 billion people the Chinese government has governed over the last 40 years have experienced unrivaled improvements in quality of life and are therefore content while the long hoped for "unrest" in China emerged in capitalist HK.
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@Belasco
The comparison with Chile is apt. Where's all the handwringing about the harsh response there?
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the same can be said about the protest in Iraq against government installed after the illegal 2003 invasion.
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@Belasco
HK has mediocre schools?
In a past life, I was lucky to see most of the world on business trips; and Hong Kong holds a special place in my memory.
President Xi Jinping is arguably the second-worst dictator on earth; makes Putin look almost like a democrat; and even when he pastes a sick smile on his face, looks evil to me. He gets worse every year as he continues to tighten his grip. By now, much of the population--especially young people who remember no other leader--have been effectively brainwashed.
Which brings me back to Hong Kong. I see the riots ending badly, and sooner rather than later. But here's something I've heard NO ONE discuss in the scores of articles I've read and interviews I've heard.
Even if by some miracle, Hong Kong get some kind of face-saving agreement from China, what happens in 2047? That's when their "special status" negotiated in 1997 runs out--and we're almost half-way there already.
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@bnyc My best guess is that in 2047 "One Country-Two Systems" becomes "One Country-One System" with whatever system Beijing is using at the time being that "One System". The more divergent those two systems are at that point, the more painful the transition will be.
One concern that I have that nobody is talking about is 2049. This is the 100th anniversary of the PRC and I very much suspect that it is the target date for reunification with Taiwan. I think one of the unintended consequences of Hong Kong's protests is the widening of the divergence between China's reunification goals and Taiwan's willingness to accept those goals. I think that Taiwan's observations of the Hong Kong protests are likely to harden their resistance to eventual reunification and probably make that reunification a bloody and violent exercise with a lot of death and destruction on both sides.
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@bnyc
Don’t forget Kik Jong Il. I think he’s the worst dictator.
Xi Jinping knows that he will be 94 years old in 2047.
“Regarding terrorism, China has shown the world a more effective and humane approach than that pursued by other countries.”
Out of sight, out of mind. Once they’re all rounded up, it’s far easier to liquidate people en masse.
In United States and America, we keep our cruelty as visible as possible. What kind of man would be foolish enough to display basic human decency? That’s how people get taken advantage of.
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USA's methods of bombing from the sky is cleaner and less messy compared to re-education process. There were conscious down play of civilians death caused by bombing in area where USA's mercenaries/private contractors or military personnel assist it's allies (for example Egyptian military junta or USA installed government in Afghanistan) against their common enemies.
The classic film "Gandhi" dealt with peaceful versus violent protest. Violence does tend to beget violence. Maybe the protest movement needs to re-examine its strategies. There seems to be a violent minority will only encourage more reaction and fascism by authoritarian police. If the reformists want to hold the police to account and get them to change their rules of force (tear gas, hoses, etc.), shooting arrows, tossing bottles, and lighting fires to buildings is not a good way to go.
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@JUHallCLU
It was likely that there were members of the Triad (Mafia) who were hired by Beijing to raise the level of violence. Once the police started to shoot the protesters, it's natural enough for some of the protesters to fight back.
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There are distinct parallels between what China is facing with Hong Kong and what the Soviet Union faced in 1968 with Czechoslovakia. In both cases it was not so much the actual internal actions of the entities that concerned the imperial power but, rather, the example that was/is being set.
The liberalization effected in Czechoslovakia was not occurring in spite of but through the Communist Party. More in parallel to the current situation regarding China, Czechoslovakia was intending to essentially and voluntarily federate, recognizing the differences between the Czech and Slovak peoples. If they got away with that, it would clearly send a message to a number of subject peoples within the Soviet Union that they both had a right and could try to effect their own self-determined national aspirations. That was something that posed an existential threat to the rationale for the Soviet Union's existence.
If Hong Kong gets to chart its own future, it will set a "bad example" for Tibetans, Uighurs, and other subject peoples of the Han majority. This is something that Xi's government government will not allow, as it would pose an existential threat to the Han Leninist control of the current imperial definition of China.
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@Steve Fankuchen
In addition, there were other reasons involved in the Soviet decision to invade Czechoslovakia. Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia (the united country was an outgrowth of World War I) really had no history of military aggression, to an extent serving through the centuries as a doormat for other European powers to walk over on their way to somewhere else. The Soviet Union, only a quarter century after losing around seventeen million people in World War II, was still anxious about the possibility of a weak link in the Warsaw Pact's barrier to potential aggression from the West.
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@Steve Fankuchen
But the most important difference is that the Chinese people on the mainland, 1.3 billion of them, overwhelmingly support the government. The more vocal of them are asking for a crackdown. Czechoslovakia divided the Soviet Union, Hong Kong is unifying the Chinese people.
@Steve Fankuchen
Poor babies had to I tell you had to do what they did.
Propaganda forever.
Mr Trump just given the green light to the Chinese government that any remedy Mr Xi sees fit to administer is acceptable...
to Mr Trump any way.
Apart from Mr Trump, real Americans are with the protesters, and non-violence on their part.
Perhaps if Mr Xi would expel all western and democratic business from China, and cease doing business in the US, then he and the regime could make peace on the Hong Kong. front
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It’s difficult to feel fully informed. Not knowing the cultures of Hong Kong or China it’s hard to assess the situation. It’d be great if China demonstrates that it is capable of nuanced responses and holds back on going full Tian amin this time around.
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@RjW These Western media is, of course, going to get these protests wrong because they are being flattered. The West tends to get everything wrong (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria... )... but hey whatever.
The best guidebook to all of this is Steven Kinzer’s “A Thousand Hills”. We just have to figure out who are the Hutus, Tutsis and French/Belgians.
This is tribalism at its most glorious (I’m not being sarcastic) and will be resolved understand it as such. The Tutsi and the Hutus were always Rwandans and will always be.
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The Chinese feel free to do what they want, because Trump has sold out HK thinking it will help him get a "trade deal" with Chinese. But that bet has not paid off, now he just wants to sell out the people of HK for a little bit more of agricultural purchase from red states.
South Korea, confronted by extortionist demands for $5B from Trump, just signed a deal with the Chinese.
The reality is that Trump has lost Asia. Rather than keeping China in a rules based system, Trump has allowed them to toss around their weight, as US allies have lost trust in the US, and - see e.g. Korea - turned to China as a result.
Kinda makes wonder if Xi has something on Trump, it appears that Putin is not the only one who controls Trump.
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@spin "The reality is that Trump has lost Asia." I see your point, but kind of a poor choice of words. Asia was never, in the first place, a continent that Donald Trump or any U.S. president was in a position to lose.
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@Jack I agreed with the great majority of what you said and I selected the recommend tag because of that, but I do take exception to your last point. Democracy has its good and bad points. Its greatest challenge is its difficulty to focus national resources on priority projects like industrialization. Once democracies have matured though, their stability when transferring power from one regime to another is highly enviable.
The ongoing transformation of hegemony in Asia from the United States to China is perfectly natural and to be expected now that China has recovered from it's recent history and it should in no way be considered a reflection of the failure of democracy.
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@Jack
Never any shortage of supercilious armchair wannabe dictators. Not surprise to see someone of that ilk attributing problems with capitalism to democracy. Democracy is not the problem, rather the problem is the poor choices people make. Choices that are more often than not the result of runaway capitalism and the unbounded greed and inequality it produces. Almost always the result of poorly developed egos. Humanity can either evolve and mature or destroy itself. So far the jury is still out.
Obviously, this ain't gonna end well.
But the history of Tiananmen notwithstanding, the Chinese Communist Party may not exactly be playing as good a hand as it believes. It is being forced to repress on multiple fronts--Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, overseas students . . .and it has some Trumpian instability to also worry about (perhaps the one thing Orange 45 may currently be of use for).
It may be true that in the short run, as the Party obviously believes, that the world follows power. But that following is notoriously sullen and fickle, and, in a metaphor that China is certainly familiar with, the slow trickle of a drop by drop stream can, in time, wear down even the mightiest of rocks.
One wonders if there might be some internal difference of opinion in the Central Committee over how best to handle all this--and certainly the hierarchy knows that their people are pretty ingenious at working around any attempts to curtail their internet communications . . .
So the hierarchy may not have quite the control it thinks. And if hardliners overplay their hands, we may be looking at a genie no one can put back in the bottle.
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@Glenn Ribotsky Is it no longer possible for someone to write an opinion piece or response thereto without a gratuitous shot at Trump? I don’t like Trump but I grow weary of this incessant carping in everything I read.
@Glenn Ribotsky Perhaps it will end very well, with Hong Kong becoming as stable, prosperous, and vigorous as Shanghai and Shenzhen, just two of many mainland cities that boom under China's "repression"!
@AynRant
HK is the paradise for mainland Chinese and the CCP to get their money out from mainland China to HK and then to America, Canada, Australia and Europe...etc. There are restrictions to exchange from Renminbi to USD. But we can exchange from HKD to USD without restrictions. Google about the history between HKD and USD, long history since 80s, you'll understand.
If you want to know why Shenzhen and Shanghai can't replace HK, please read about the United States–Hong Kong Policy Act in 1992 and Mitch McConnell. https://www.businessinsider.com/mitch-mcconnell-china-review-1992-hong-kong-policy-act-2019-8
HK is indispensable to the continuing economic growth of the Communist China, especially with the downturn of economy in mainland now. "Aug 8, 2019 - About 70% of the capital raised on it is for Chinese firms, but strikingly ... Most Chinese foreign direct investment flows through Hong Kong" from economist. Look at what Alibaba is doing in HK, $13 billion HK stock sale this week. Who want Renminbi? Even the Chinese don't want that!
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Somehow I don't see any balanced reporting in western media. This article and the faces of the demonstrators/rioters already named them as the good guys. There were peaceful demonstrators but now its mainly rioters who destroy things, hurt people and intimidate others there. It is laughable how the quite restrained action of the HK police is treated as extreme violence against molotov cocktails, hammer and brick attacks etc. Any other country would have mobilized their military etc.
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@gavin
In Baltimore, there were protests turned into riots over two to three days. Fires were set and commercial properties were destroyed. Residents and visitors were too afraid to carry out our lives normally. The Governor called out the National Guard to restore order.
Indeed, no city in the world would allow the "unrest" that has destroyed Hong Kong to continue.
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@gavin It's a different situation when the population involved has no other outlet for grievances (via free democratic elections), and reasonable fear of reprisals/torture/etc. if captured or insufficiently armed.
I am glad there has not been more violence, but it is disingenuous to call any of this simple "rioting."
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@Shirley How are they not comparable to Tiananmen? Both are mass protests against the CCP for democracy. Both began as large peaceful protests and the jury is still out as to how much military force the CCP will use this time.
The protestors have 5 very clear demands. As you say, we can only get part of the truth, but I would be careful not to consume too much CCP propaganda.
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