Bravo Mr. O’Reilly. Once again an Irish observer captures the fate of man and woman by focusing in on the green sod. Indeed, look at America as well for sad divination. What does it tell us about how political life is evolving for all of us when dutifully protecting the “last, best hope on Earth” is apparently less important to millions than ones party keeping the dog-catcher’s seat in City Hall?
1
Bravo Mr. McCarthy! Once again a pithy Irish observer captures the regrettable “likely fate” of all life-loving women and men by focusing in on events as they whirl over and around the green sod. Indeed, what does it tell us about how political life for all of us is headed when here in the United States, our ancient duty to protect the wisdom of “the last, best hope on Earth” is apparently less important than shilling for ones political party and doing anything it takes to see that it retains even the dog-catcher’s seat in City Hall?
The sad decline of Empires is often best observed by sagacious “hinterland pundits” like Mr. O’Reilly, whose neighbors in the Republic can be expected to thrive themselves in equal measure to the once-mighty Titan’s sickening, slow-motion fall. It doesn’t matter what I think ... but I agree that the Union baby will indeed eventually go out with the populist and cravenly-partisan bath water. Good thing too. Ireland will resist unification and will struggle to swallow the North but will eventually digest and incorporate the Counties as the recalcitrant generations therein ebb away. Scotland will “Iceland-around” for a while before settling in eventually as Norway-junior in the North Sea. Wales I fear will continue to fade as the red (and green) headed stepchild to Blighty. England’s fate can perhaps best be viewed through the prism of Prince Andrew’s recent shabby and self-deluded skein. Here, it promises to be a different genre altogether that will be sung by the poets in the years to come. If only the sad decline and fall of the once-triumphant American construct (that is being presaged in these pages in daily testaments to the end of honor and rationality) could be as “easy” to live through as it seems to be right now for the blissfully ignorant, turtleneck-clad English who watch blithely as it is all brought tumbling down.
1
This is hardly surprising when more and more Brexiters, especially since the 2008 financial crash, have self-identified as Englanders rather than British.
2
Unite Ireland. Unite Ireland, you'll get you precious exit from the European Union, Great Britain (or more specifically, England). Honestly Britain, what use is Northern Ireland to you? Politically and socially, it seems like it's always been a bleeding ulcer.
...And there will come a day where American conservatives will look you earnestly in the eye and insist (INSIST!) that Donald Trump was never a Republican. They will inform you he was a Democrat. They will mean this not in the sense that the Republican party made a wrong turn toward populism, fiscal irresponsibility and statist authoritarianism - sins that are often laid at the feet of the left. They will truly remember that he won the Democratic nomination and was spent into power by the left.
7
The EU was created for only one reason, the free movement of cheap labor, nothing more.
1
Anglo-Saxon people believe that you can decide matters of fact by having a debate. If you win, then two and two make five. And you can win a debate by talking louder than the other party, and insulting them.
Other folks seem to have more of a realization, that if you ignore actual reality, it has this tendency to come around and bite you in your posterior.
I guess recent history spoiled the Anglo-Saxons. They have been so powerful, economically, politically and militarily - the British Empire before WWI and the United States since - that they were actually able to get away with believing in their own propaganda.
What they don't understand is that other people don't share their beliefs.
2
I could heartily enjoy the Brexit mess, but for the realization that Trump likewise is our own bad medicine that somehow we must swallow to get better.
I fear no return to normal for either Britain or the USA.
6
It is perplexing what 'conservatives' here in the American Colonies or in Great Britain are actually conserving. My uneducated rough guess is power, influence, and reelection. :(
12
Brexit, for all its horrific impact on 92% of the British population, may well have unthought-of positive consequences: the reunification of Ireland and the independence of Scotland, maybe even Wales? And the reinvention of England as a normal country in a community of nations.
But for people who look like me, the best Brexit took place 70 years ago, when Britain started leaving the countries of our forefathers!
2
Very short on Historical facts Northern Ireland was part of Ulster at one time. Ulster was part of the fiefdom of Scotland.
There was a referendum and the people of Northern Ireland voted to remain part of the UK.
Ulster was never part of Ireland until the referendum then part of Ulster joined Southern Ireland and the other part joined the UK.
All carried out with a referendum and political correctness. Something left wing luvvies fail to appreciate.
3
@Eric
I hate to be the one to break this to you but these are not the facts on how Northern Ireland was created.
There was no referendum when Northern Ireland was established. There was a referendum in 1973 long after Northern Ireland was established. This referendum had no part in establishing the boarder between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
I have no idea what you mean by the "fiefdom of Scotland" but Ulster was never part of Scotland politically.
Stop making up stuff.
19
@Eric Wrong.The Dal Riata Irish of Ulster, who ackowledged the High King of Ireand in Tara, went to what is now western Scotland and extended their kingship there. That is, they established a Celtic irish Gaelic kingdom next to the Celtic kingdoms of the Picts. So, if you follow your underlying argument, both all of Ulster and western Scotland should be part of Ireland, loyal to the government of Ireland in Dublin. But these events are so far in the past that they are irrelevant to any discussion of Ireland and the United Kingdom.
8
Very Irish; but should the population of what is now Northern Ireland, and a part of the United Kingdom, decide by referendum to leave the UK and become part of the RoI, that would solve the 'problem'. But would the RoI want to take them?
Of course the RoI would probably not want to take on these 'northern' Irish people so maybe it's a non-starter. But from an English perspective it's probably an attractive proposition.
Then lose Scotland; also for maybe a majority of English an attractive concept.
2
Just as old-school GOP'ers in this country are "shocked, shocked" to find out that their constituents don't give a toss about supposed Conservative Principles, Conservative leaders in the UK are finding that no one really cares that much about the Union among their Brexit-obsessed supporters.
All along it seems that party supporters on the right are more about the attitude and style of the leadership, and will go along with demolishing the UK economy (and Union) because Brexit is the feel-good rebel movement of this moment in time.
In our country the supporters of Trump will go along with whatever he declares to be his views of the day, regardless of traditional conservative talking points.
The rise of the strong (and somewhat unserious) leader is upon us as a form of post-modern populism. A billionaire (?) on the one hand and an Eton-educated child of EU diplomat on the other - unlikley populists who nonetheless know how to pander to their base.
15
Since the late 18th century, when regarding territory, The British seem to have adopted that philosophy of "less is more". Good luck with that.
Mr. O'Reilly does a good job of explaining HOW English and American conservative abandoned their respective principles, but gives no hint as to WHY. Why is being in the EU so egregious that some would happily see the UK broken up until England is alone in the world, as long as it is not in the EU? What is so appealing about Trump that American GOP voters will toss aside everything they used to vote for because those are things Trump does not support? I don't understand it. Hopefully, while enough of the Western world hasn't self-destructed, someone can figure out what is going on and how to counter it.
30
Xenophobia and racism. Explained.
18
@Michael Gallagher , the abdication of adulthood and responsibility in the pursuit of emotional gratification, the turn from seeking truth to cheering on one's "team"--a feeling of belonging and superiority through the daddy figure... so much easier not to think, just to follow. The loss of reading, the ascendency of entertainment, the success of propaganda... . It's happened before. Didn't end well.
16
@Michael Gallagher There have been problems since the 1990’s when E.U. countries were basically forced to take in Eastern European workers, who were only supposed to stay a few years until conditions improved in their home countries. Of course, that did not happen. This happened several times, and the Murdoch newspapers have kept reminding British readers of this...
2
Brexit demonstrates how delusional the British electorate is about their place in the world. If Brexit happens,
the average citizen will suffer a major reduction in their standard of living. Britain will become irrelevant on the world stage
especially if Scotland leaves the Kingdom. This is called shooting your self in the foot. If Johnson is counting on a trade deal Trump, Trump will take advantage of the UK in any potential trade deal. The winner of Brexit is Putin who wants to breakup the Western alliance.
42
@deminsun "The winner of Brexit is Putin"
Duh! Why do you suppose Mr. Trump supports Brexit so fervently?
11
@deminsun The entire British Empire gained its independence and self Governing then the UK was signed up by John Major to be Governed from Brussels.
Can anyone else see the ilogic in that.
@deminsun After the dust settles The EU will negotiate a trade deal with a Brexited Britain. The EU will act rationally and Brexiter Little Englanders won't object to a trade treaty as long as England is Little England and not part of the EU. Ireland will quickly negotiate a trade deal with a Brexited Little England because both countries have a huge mutual cross border commerce. So will Scotland, the Nordic countries, and the Netherlands. The EU will follow.
1
Irish ignorance of the rest of the UK is far more profound than our ignorance of Ireland. For a start for more people of Irish decent live in England than in Ireland. Our history is littered with famines, plagues, civil wars and family feuds. Why should Ireland be a special case? So much of Irish history and the so called Irish diaspora is a myth. Most of the immigrants to Appalachia were north Britons not Scots. They came from the likes of Lancashire, Northumberland and Cumbria, some via Ulster, the so called debatable lands. You only have to check the place names in present day Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee to bear this out. These simpering professional Irishmen are so boring. Tell us something we don't already know. We want to move on, its the professional Celts who keep raising old enmities. I'm a pro Brxiteer. The EU doesn't share any of our democratic traditions. The EU is characterized by consensus driven, we know best political elites and according to the NYT totally corrupt. Brits much prefer confrontational winner takes all (for 5 years anyway) politics.
11
@AngloSaxon
This is the sort of obsrevation one wouls expect from a man who calls himself 'AngloSaxon'.
‘Irish ignorance of the rest of the UK is far more profound than our ignorance of Ireland. For a start for more people of Irish decent live in England than in Ireland. Our history is littered with famines, plagues, civil wars and family feuds’ – what is the relevance of the fact that ‘more people of Irish decent (sic) live in England than in Ireland’ and can you give us some references for the rest of that quote?
7
@AngloSaxon
"Brits much prefer confrontational winner takes all (for 5 years anyway) politics."
I've seen your confrontational parliament, but as far as "winner takes all" or "5 years," I would point out that your government is forced to piece together coalitions and you've had three prime ministers in the last four years and are heading for another election albeit one I read here Boris Johnson is likely to win.
Now, tell me we'll have had three American presidents between 2016 and 2020, I'd be overjoyed, as that'd be Trump, Pence, Pelosi.
But considering you're staring down the prospect of becoming part of a new Soviet Union like the rest of us, is now the time to throw three-years'-worth-and-counting of your national attention and civic unity toward weakening the EU?
10
@Lawrence Linehan The people in Northern Ireland are predominantly from Scottish decent.
Turtleneck man is truly emblematic of how most English people view Ireland. Churchill would remark more than once on that "Irish problem" of course, never realizing it was a problem of Britain's own making. Unity in Ireland is possible given resources by the UK and EU to help bring the 6 counties into the republic. What's funny is that it took Brexit for the Brits to start paying attention. Funnier still is that over 60% of Tories would like to see the back of Scotland too. Wow.
9
@Sarah McAuliffe
Probably 60% (at least) of English would like to see the back of Scotland; 300 years is more than enough.
@Krd , cite your source.
1
The correlation between "Turtleneck Man" and alt-right Trump supporters in the U.S.—not unlike more direct comparisons between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump—are indeed apt but, as often with news developments, are to history like reading a novel through a microscope.
Or perhaps connect-the-dots abandoned after the first pair.
We're slow to reckon with the fact that when we step back from the pointillism of individual twerps, the pig picture is a global pandemic, an outbreak of white nationalism spread via social media, a virtual warfare waged by Russia, a psychological operations campaign to turn conservatives of most stripes into their (mostly unwitting, though clearly several paid and quite willing) abettors.
This is divide and conquer on a worldwide scale, a sort of reverse Arab Spring whereby bad actors use social media to leverage our respective cultural original sins and peculiar ethnic and economic hangups to get free democrats to vote our constitutional republics into authoritarian dictatorships.
Satayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Of this dangerous myopia—and resistance to its diagnosis—I would add: Those who fail to apprehend the present cede to enemies the very things they purport to conserve.
28
@J T Excellent explanation. Thank you.
3
Seamus O'Reilly -- Separate and apart from the actual existence of Turtleneck Man -- the emblematic bro here in the States -- this is the single most insightful and hysterically funny pieces of writing I have read in months. I can only imagine that TM here is to be found in droves among Trump voters who have no real clue what they are supporting.
15
"It is not reasonable, or even desirable, to demand that every person becomes a diligent historian."
become
A culture that has lost the subjunctive has hit its drooling dementia.
10
@David Lloyd-Jones: Thanks for saying this. How right you are! The subjunctive, since ancient Greek if not before, has expressed the difference (as perceived by the speaker) between reality and imagination, between observed fact and hypothesis, between reality and wish or desire.
Those are distinctions we ignore at our peril. As has become only too evident in recent years, in both the UK and the US.
Boris Johnson has an elite education behind him, but I doubt that he paid much attention to the subjunctive. Donald Trump never studied at all, so we mustn't expect the impossible from him. (Or even, apparently, the possible.) Neither of them seems to recognize the distinction between reality and their own desire.
10
This may be the single best explanation of Brexit I have seen anywhere:
"The British government prefers to insist that there would be nothing complex about Brexit if only the E.U. and Ireland would get out of the way. Like a toddler struggling with object permanence, the U.K. acts as if other countries exist only when it chooses to look at them. "
Does that also work for the U.S. and Trump?
"Like a toddler struggling with object permanence, Trump acts as if other people exist only when he chooses to look at them. "
38
Thank you for brilliantly combining random thoughts that have been running around in my head for a while. I am a Trump exile living in Paris, one of the last relatively sane places in the world.
18
Necessary reading: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/08/general-election-poll-polls-boris-johnson-course-96-seat-majority/
"General election poll of polls: Boris Johnson on course for 96-seat majority"
Boris Johnson is on course to win an overall majority of 96, polling suggests, as Labour has fallen behind the Tories in all but two English regions.
Analysis of opinion polls over the past fortnight by Electoral Calculus shows the Conservatives on course to win 373 seats, with Labour on 182, the Liberal Democrats on 25 and SNP on 48.
It shows the Conservatives up three per cent on last week to 38.2 per cent with Nigel Farage’s Brexit party falling to 10.2 per cent with no seats. It suggests the Prime Minister is so far holding Mr Farage at bay and maintaining a unified Brexit vote.
Trumpmen and trumpwomen are so fixated on the abyss that is the trump - but they haven't forgotten their morality or their values - trump represents exactly what they have always believed and think. It was mostly undercover before trump. Now that trump has blown morality, civility, decency, humanity all out of the water without consequence, his followers feel free to be themselves - just like him.
Even like trump, they get offended when they are called deplorable by the person they're chanting for to be locked up out of spite.
"jettisoning ... every moral precept held within their movement." I beg to differ. They jettisoned the PRETENSE of moral values within their movement now that they can emulate the trump and be just like him, bringing their "values" out into the open.
Just as trump would not lose support if he shot someone on 5th Ave, he has not lost any support for kidnapping and caging children, betraying the Kurds, doing everything Putin wants, corrupts the 2016 AND now the 2020 elections, extorts an ally using our money, supports the world's greatest tyrants, cheats students and charities and has never told the truth (that I know of) - all without losing ANY support.
Trump has proved conservatism and evangelicals to be frauds and no trumpsplaining, Jordansplaining, Nunes-splaining, Mitchsplaining, Falwellsplaining, Rudysplaining, etc. will change my mind! Unfortunately all that right-wing-splaining the trumpmen and trumpwomen hear they consider the Gospel truth.
43
It is still the colonial stance. And deep down, 'the arrogance' that gave birth to Brexit (we can and should go at 'it' alone) comes from the same source.
9
The only way to explain such a level of cognitive dissonance that people will readily ignore reality and facts, is to look emotionally into the human psyche.
The deep emotion that drives both Brits and Americans to deny they have made incredible blunders in their political choices and been taken for fools lies in their hatred of the “other” - black and browned skinned people, whether citizens or immigrants, who are falsely to blame for all grievances from Caucasians, whether American or British.
11
Conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic are basically very young children mentally. Shiny objects distract them. They burst into tears when reality comes between said objects and their grasp. Violent flailing follows, or in the case of the resident White House child, raging tweets.
17
A short memory? Or just plain ignorance of history, or disinterest in knowing what came before us? When anomie is the problem, Brexit and Trump are the result, a most deplorable situation. And longlasting.
6
This editorial is so good it hurts.
10
I have read and reread this acerbic, abstract and wonderfully ironic op-ed. Then I read several of the comments from the readers, who seem to have responded to the echoes ringing in their heads, but not to the op-ed. In my mind, this piece is a dire warning against our current selfie-twitter-facebook culture that vacuums forethought and reflection from our battered brains. Madness is spreading around the world distracted with the non-issues, such as the catastrophic Brexit in the soon to be small and ravaged Britain, or the cosmic disaster of trumpism in America. How can we then deal with the real problems, such as planetary heating and ecosystem collapse that are threatening to annihilate our civilization?
28
"As much as we Irish recreationally hate on Britain.." The writer thinks that he speaks for all the Irish (including Northerners?) just like the Tories, in his opinion, speak for the UK. In making these kind of confusions this piece says as much - or possibly more- about him as it does the underlying situation. And by the way around 30 percent of British people (the term Brits, by the way, from some people comes with it the mouth-curling undertone of the vile tendency of bigots to refer to Irish people as Mick) are of Irish ancestry.
I know the author likes Joyce, as do I, but Shakespeare seems more appropriate on this occasion:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
4
What Trump and Brexit defenders show, in fact, is that the hinterland's conservatism always superficial and hypocritical. In the US, Trump supporters are furious that their ethnic group is losing its privileges, and nothing makes them angrier than being told they're racist. In this caterwaul they jettison all their concerns about budget deficits, which was supposedly the defining feature of the Tea Party. This proves the Tea Party was a reaction to the election of non-white President.
Conservatives in the US are deeply antagonized by the state, claiming it suppresses their liberty. The US federal gov't is plainly overstretched and under-resourced. What conservatives hate is the gov't integrating schools, or making them pay taxes for them.
Conservatives have learned the best defense is angry offense. So any charge of racism is treated like a disgusting insult. But they've really corned themselves, as have Brexiters. By ignoring the giant deficits, by pretending immoral behavior doesn't matter, their real motives are too plain to ignore.
23
Yes, just as we saw members of the Democratic Party act like everything they ever believed was to stop Bush-Cheney style intervention-first, regime change and "Forever" Wars, and then, upon being elected, abandon everything they supposedly ever believed. Abandon everything they believed for not Brexit or Trump but the abuses and excesses of the military-industrial complex and national security state.
Here's looking at you President Obama, who stole so many of our votes with your rhetoric about being different from Bush-Cheney. Here's looking at you Joe Biden. They gladly accepted the endorsement of Ted Kennedy in 2008. And I dare say, had Ted Kennedy lived, he would have regretted it.
In spite of everything they supposedly believed and told the country about in 2008, they continued the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan their entire 8 years, ending their presidency with the shameful distinction of longest wartime president & VP in US history. Expanded the intervention-first regime change nonsense versus countries that never attacked US soil to Libya, Syria, Yemen and Ukraine. Brought zero accountability when CIA Director John Brennan lied about breaking into Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee computers to undermine torture investigation. Brought zero accountability when NSA Director James Clapper perjured himself on topic of mass warrantless surveillance vs US citizens on US soil.
Hope & change? Apparently "Turtleneck Man" was alive long before Brexit and Trump.
6
I have visited NI and have friends there. (Due to my name, not the IRA.)
Back to the US. Trump is bad man. I talk in plain English.
Sorry, not making fun of our good allies.
This is the type of a brilliant read that I need to start my day. Bravo, Mr. O’Reilly—I can't wait to read your book and I hope the Times turns to you again, soon.
1
In this country I find a remarkable ability of Trump supporters to support Trump in the absence of logic, reasoning, and morality. Trump supporters are willing, indeed eager, to excuse every action of Trump, every moral depravity, every dishonest discovery, every selfish, self-centered ego-filled reference, every execrable incompetence -- and to do so with joy.
What I cannot understand is this: Why for Trump? What is it about Trump, and about his self-serving ideology of Trumpism (the core tenet seems to be 'anything President Obama was for, we are against') that makes abandoning logic, morals, and emotional stability worthwhile? What is it about Trump (a miserable excuse for an idol or messiah, if there ever was one) that makes this something that millions of people are eager to do? It seems to be some form of a mass delusion, spread by AM talk radio and Fox "News" shows.
12
@Jim Brokaw Two things - loss of the privileges of being the "superiors" guaranteed work and respect and at its core, racism.
3
@Jim Brokaw
Mass delusion? Please lead your list of media with Trump's 66,612,964 Twitter followers.
His frequently spewed random lying soundbites -- in violation of Twitter's own rules -- are permitted by Twitter.
Why, exactly?
3
Many Americans have awakened to the 'dream' of authoritarianism. Authoritarianism demands blind obedience and that's what the Americans in thrall to Trump are offering.
"I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any supporters."
Trump says that as though its a good thing - loyalty to him being paramount - and not a bludgeoning or thrashing of American democracy.
Apparently once people succumb to this ideology, they'll go along with anything and defend the authoritarian ideology - or candidate - to the bitter end.
We may have many years of worry that our American democracy has died.
Apparently the Republicans have thrown in with authoritarianism. Hopefully the Republicans are crushed in 2020, never to rise again.
Else, we are doomed.
7
It's called a cult.
4
There is so much nonsense here, I don't know where to start. So I will here, for starters: Brexit is not a "nebulous thing". It is a very concrete thing. The word denotes a process by which UK exits (or rather secedes from) the European Union. Like the majority of its citizens voted for in a referendum. There is nothing nebulous about it at all. Most British people do not want their country to remain a member of EU. That is an established fact. Established by a referendum no less. And soon to be established again for good measure - by Boris Johnson's win in the upcoming elections. It really boggles the mind that a so clearly expressed will of the people continues to be ignored so stubbornly by the establishment. Democracy it ain't.
3
@David
there you go again, using British when you mean English.
Scotland and NI did not vote for Brexit and apparently neither did the majority of Welsh speakers.
Nebulous thing here refers to the fact that all Leavers did not vote for the same thing. Certainly the propaganda for the leave campaign told many of the ease of leaving with favourable conditions which, of course, were and are lies.
This petty outpouring of right wing English nationalism may lead to England by itself. By yourselves you can only hurt yourselves.
8
@David Except "the people" were lied to during the referendum campaign as to what they would gain from Brexit, it was a vote manipulated by Russian trolls, there will never again be a "Great" British empire as they were led to believe and their economy will not receive some fantasy huge and continuous refund from the EU but a continuous shrinking and increasing cost of living from import tariffs on European goods. Not to mention the loss of talented and hardworking European health workers. You think the wait at National Health clinics is long now, just wait. It was all a grift and a raft for which the small minded Little Englanders will suffer and the younger generations will forever be deprived of the benefits of the EU their parents enjoyed. Stupid crass political manipulation by the truly evil.
7
This piece drips with condescension and elitism. According to the author, the poor dumb rubes who voted for Brexit couldn't have known what they were doing, and apparently we must undo this result (with more referendums, until we win!), no matter what it takes. The rubes were lied to about Brexit! Or it's not possible in practice to implement Brexit, or something (but then why was the choice of Brexit put to the people to begin with?) And they're just like those dumb evangelicals in the U.S. who don't like Trump's womanizing or immoral behavior, but prefer it to having a Warren or Sanders presidency with a soviet-type 'plan for everything', an antagonism toward religion, and no restriction on abortion. The author might have more credibility if he at least also called out the accommodations made by progressives to achieve their goals; how for example they sacrifice their supposed intellectualism to cheer on the vacuous AOC, or how they give a nod to blatant anti-Semities (like Ilhan Omar) in their ranks, if it means beating Trump. James Joyce undoubtedly would have more sympathy for the poor Brexit voters and Trump "deplorables" who have to put up with this elitism.
10
The EU referendum was an attempt by David Cameron to shut up the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party for good, and Boris Johnson only supported Leave as a way of campaigning well enough to unseat Cameron. Johnson know's leaving the EU is a disastrous idea.
60
@R.P. And yet, it's still true. In the same way Trump supporters seem to have shut down their critical faculties, excusing him daily of behaviours they would previously have rejected as unpatriotically undemocratic or simply morally reprehensible in anyone else, cheering and applauding him as he wrecks moral and democratic norms and undermines the very values on which the USA was founded, so Brexit supporters do the same to the UK.
And this despite both having a clear and demonstrable history of being pathological liars, you still believe him, even when easily available facts show he's lying.. how to explain that?
All your Ad homs, false equivalences, attempts to change the subject completely and hyperbole... don't change that truth.
126
@R.P. Let’s see if I’m tracking - Brexit and Trumpers good, progressives and Remainders bad. Offered without evidence, washed down with the usual chaser of calling out the “elites.” I think I got it, thanks!
59
One of the best explanations to derive meaning from the unexplainable. The blind leading the blind and loving it.
Quoting Frank Wilhoit:
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time.”
True for Brexit, true for Trump. It's about elevating tribe above all else - including morality and intelligence.
11
@Brad Price
Your comment reminds me of Sir Herbert Read who mentions the resumption of class politics after 1918 in the UK in the phrase:
'we returned To the dreary field and workshop, and the immemorial feud Of rich and poor'
(https://soundcloud.com/poetsreadingpoetry/herbert-read-reads-to-a-conscript-of-1940 )
I always think this is a fairly complete and accurate description of politics by a non-politician. It is one of my two favourite reductionist definitions of historical processes by non-historians - the other one is from Orwell’s 1942 essay on Kipling or Eliot - where he says Kipling missed the point about empires:
'Kipling does not seem to realize, any more than the average soldier or colonial administrator, that an empire is primarily a money-making concern. Imperialism as he sees it is a sort of forcible evangelizing. … His outlook, allowing for the fact that after all he was an artist, was that of the salaried bureaucrat who despises the 'box-wallah' and often lives a lifetime without realizing that the 'box-wallah' calls the tune.’
2
As a young soldier in the 1980’s, I served in Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles. I saw death and life defining moments that helped me understand humanity in my own way, honing my liberalism and forging my pacificism. Now, in my mid fifties, I realise that my recent history is ancient to some and forgotten by others, especially Turtleneck Man who probably thinks the IRA is a hedge fund of some description.
He typifies what we, as an electorate, have become: superficial, unsophisticated, and fashionably ignorant to everyone and everything outside our own orbits. If a statesman or woman were to appear now, speaking the right terms, believing what he or she said, and acting upon them dutifully, western democracy might still be saved from the ignoramuses, Trump and Johnson, who believe passionately and grotesquely in their inviolability and intellectual superiority to the rest of us.
I wonder who it is to whom they speak. Don’t they know that I exist and that I am legion? I’m liberal, educated, blessed with life experience, and I know a liar and demagogue when I see one. It seems that these men appeal to people who are not me. Apparently, I don’t figure into their formulas for power. They certainly don’t figure into mine.
So, who will govern me? Can I be governed if I don’t believe that blackmailing foreign leaders is unimpeachable or that leaving the EU based on a tissue of lies is a good thing?
16
This man is an extraordinary writer.
4
I always loved the notion that I could travel West and wind up in the Far East. Monty Python had a sketch about a Robin Hood type character who was so expert at robbing from the rich and giving to the poor that the poor became rich and the rich became poor.
I see these as examples of doctrine taken too far, which often seems to deliver the zealots to the very location they were fighting to avoid. I think of this whenever I see anarchists organizing.
How strange it is for the country of Drake, Nelson, Cook, Kitchner, and Lawrence, to complain about foreign influence.
3
I have a British colleage who lives in London and once told me, with famous Brit charming sarcasm, that Brexit is something that English politicians somehow know is bad for the country but is “good” politics. Consequently that they will argue it to death but they will never sign onto any plan to leave by rejecting plans and postponing Brexit forever.
I am not sure if that is true but it seems accurate right now. So, I would argue that, what Britain, the US and seemingly many other places around the world are suffering from, is the successful Demagoguery of Political Opportunist.
3
I do not see the contradiction. Brexit was a bad idea because it restricts free movement of good, people and services between UK and the rest of the EU. A soft Brexit that preserves the maximum amount of free movement of goods, people and services is better than a hard Brexit. A hard Brexit that preserves some freedom of movement is better than a no-deal Brexit.
@Thaomas Oh, I see he was only pointing out contradictions on the Leave position.
A mile wide and an inch deep.
In the "information age" the process of forming a coherent view world resembles more than anything else proceeding down an infinitely long aisle of a Shopping Mall.
On we wander, trusting that someone will offer us something amusing enough to purchase with our attention. "Oh I like that, and that too. Someone told me that was nice." Whatever does not amuse us or soothe us we simply pass by with hardly a flicker of the eye - As is our right. The buyer is always right. Of course.
Authorities have withered and shrunk, until we perceive ourselves as standing nervously on a vast, flat plain where everyone is 3 feet tall, and Consumerism has become the primary mode of existence.
The net effect of all this is that many people inhabit a jumbled, narcissistic world that is incoherent but is at least simple and corresponds to their basic ideas and satisfies their emotional needs. Truth is a choice, and I am free.
H-m-m-m. Wherever the strength, solidarity, and cleverness of mind came from in the past to construct all the working pieces of our current reality, all of that will be needed to maintain it. The present and future will demand at least as much of us as the past ever did.
What was it Neil Postman wrote about in the 1980s - "Amusing Ourselves to Death"? Let's hope he was not a prophet.
All human constructions are artificial, contingent, and therefore inherently fragile.
18
There at least two issues - and likely many more. First up, the English have a habit of referring to other countries as a “problem”. This happened during the long conflicts for independence by countries who no longer wished to be part of the British Empire. There is an “Irish problem” and a “Scottish problem” and the Tories (and many others in England) see everything through their lens of pure self interest. They cannot understand why the EU might want to protect their customs union from some of the goods that will come into the UK hence the need to have a border of some sort. In addition, other countries have a much better understanding of the Good Friday Agreement. The majority of the English are wilfully ignorant of what could happen if there is a hard border in the island of Ireland. That is all part of the “Irish problem” and therefore trivial compared to the illusion of Brexit.
The second point is that the UK is a Parliamentary democracy - not a country run by plebiscite. The Brexit supporters keep talking about how Parliament is thwarting ‘the will of the people’. This is constitutional nonsense. In addition the Brexit campaign lied in very direct ways during the campaign and continue to do so. How many trade deals have been set up and are good to go the moment we leave the EU? The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget but how much do we benefit from economic ties to the EU?
11
"First up, the English have a habit of referring to other countries as a “problem”. What, all the English? Like all Americans support Trump?
1
There is so much nonsense here, I don't know where to start. So I will here, for starters: Brexit is not a "nebulous thing". It is a very concrete thing. The word denotes a process by which UK exits (or rather secedes from) the European Union. Like the majority of its citizens voted for in a referendum. There is nothing nebulous about it at all. Most British people do not want their country to remain a member of EU. That is an established fact. Established by a referendum no less. And soon to be established again for good measure - by Boris Johnson's win in the upcoming elections. It really boggles the mind that a so clearly expressed will of the people continues to be ignored so stubbornly by the establishment. Democracy it ain't.
4
@David David, the reason the UK is still a member of the EU is that hard-line Brexiteers in Parliament have always opposed any concrete proposal for separation as not radical enough. Boris Johnson himself voted against Theresa May's agreement with the EU. Last month though, Johnson got a majority of 30 for his own version of the separation agreement, and guess what? He subsequently withdrew it himself.
Also: while many working-class people voted for Brexit because they feel threatened by the influx of labor from Eastern Europe (think of the proverbial Polish plumber), the actual "Leave" establishment consists of neo-Thatcherites who want to leave the EU in order to become a low-wage, low-regulation economy that could undercut its European competitors in the European and other markets. Your average "non-establishment" Leave voter didn't exactly vote for more austerity, less social security, and the destruction of what is left of Britain's industry.
The UK is still a member of the EU because there is no agreement within the Conservative party or within Parliament about the kind of separation from Europe that would be acceptable. "Brexit" is, thus far, and empty shell without much concrete content.
Meanwhile, all the opinion polls suggest that public opinion has shifted from that small majority for Leave in 2016 to a small majority for Remain...
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@David
It is not an “established fact” that most British people do not want their country to remain a member of the EU. In reality, approximately 27% of the population of the U.K. voted to leave the EU during the referendum in 2016, albeit “leave” was unfortunately left undefined (or nebulous).
It is an established fact that a fair amount of illegal interference in the referendum took place, as well as a great deal of false information being provided by politicians and others. It is possible that this affected the close result (52% in favour of leaving, 48% against).
The lack of clarity of what “leave” meant is a source of continuing difficulty as the nature of the future relationship with the EU has yet to be determined. Different groups assert different definitions for leave, when in reality none was clear at the time of the referendum.
Since the referendum, many politicians have significantly revised their definition of what Brexit means. In many cases they now assert that a position that completely contradicts what they had previously stated was "Brexit" was really what they meant and represents the "will of the people". How they would know this remains unclear.
In other words, your assertions that Brexit is not a nebulous thing and that the majority of the British people supported it are both incorrect. For information, current polls suggest that a majority (53-56% depending on the poll) now support remaining in the EU.
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@Andrew
'The lack of clarity of what “leave” meant is a source of continuing difficulty as the nature of the future relationship with the EU has yet to be determined. Different groups assert different definitions for leave, when in reality none was clear at the time of the referendum.'
All this post is perceptive and informative the bit I have quoted underlines a basic fault.
2
The funny thing is many of these same Tories have openly asked, with the same egocentric innocence, why Ireland didn’t just follow the UK out of the EU, since that would solve the Brexit problem (from the British perspective). It never seemed to occur to them that the Irish might like being in the EU, or that wouldn’t just do whatever was most convenient for their British cousins.
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@Andy
And now Johnson is describing his renegotiated deal as a "great deal" for NI because it "maintains access to the single market"!!!
If Northern Ireland stayed in the EU and merged with the Republic of Ireland many people would see that as progress. If Scotland also stayed in the EU and left the UK and was either independant or joined another nation (perhaps Canada) that would be interesting too. England and Wales would be left for the experiment of Brexit. Would it significantly change the commonwealth? It does seem that Brexit is planning on the commonwealth as their new trading partners. Clearly many people are willing to give up a century of struggle for a new goal. I just hope the goal lives up to the promises. I also hope that that the goal is not to create a race pure homeland. Clearly that is the goal for some.
12
@Sutter Yes, that goal is always there, simmering under the surface, being expressed quite blatantly when the Brexiteers are amongst themselves at Wetherspoon's --- and repudiated with great, great indignation if it be alluded too anywhere else.
1
Here we go again. Mention Trump and Brexit together. They are unrelated and should never confuse people. Brexit good, trump bad.
5
In fact Brexit and Trump have much in common. For example, both won an election/referendum due to foreign interference and a misinformation campaign. And both appear intent on reducing the living standards of the majority in order to enrich the wealthy few.
They also share many traits, berating experts and ignoring facts whilst undermining state institutions, the media and anyone that might hold them to account. And of course both show a breathtaking disregard for economics.
The reality is that they have much in common and will not be judged well by history.
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@Bill Trump & Johnson and Brexit share cynical opportunistic ineffectively shallow views of reality as does this Turtleneck Man. They are disasters that seem to occur in our world at 50 yr intervals, or less but shifting countries and continents.
2
@Bill wow, you're brilliant! Thanks, mansplainer.
People now feel they know everything about a person, their character, their personality, their level of selfishness, and so forth based on two words: "liberal" and "conservative." That is the US. I assume the same is true in the UK but I am unsure what the two words would be. At one time I would have described myself as a liberal. I never fit as a conservative. However, I now feel like neither one. They are both so extreme and can't come up with one decent candidate for President no matter how hard they try. There seems to be no room in America for a middle of the roader and that is what I really would like to be. I don't think this ping ponging from one extreme position to another depending on who is (temporarily) in power is doing us a bit of good. As for Brexit, the EU has some very serious flaws and dissatisfaction with it was bound to boil over eventually in one of its member countries. As long as the EU ignores potentially lethal problems, there will be more of Brexit, not less of it. Brexit did not arise out of thin air.
8
@CK Irvin
Did Brexit not arise from :"We don't want these bloody foreigners in our country !" ?
@CK Irvin Brexit arrived out of racism, plain and simple, blame bad decisions on immigrants as opposed to flawed income distribution, same as the US. Middle of the road is a cop-out, pretending there is a compromise when in reality you like what you have and don't care too much about the rest.
3
For years, the Protestants of Northern Ireland rejected the Republic of Ireland on the grounds that the Catholic Church unduly influenced the political and social life of the country. Now that the Republic of Ireland is more secular than Northern Ireland, that objection falls by the wayside. Nor does the old economic disparity still obtain -- if anything, it has reversed itself. So what is so wrong about raising the question of whether the partition of Ireland still makes sense?
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@retired guy ... because the point was that it's a question that has been raised, and that continues to be raised, over and over again, sometimes in quite violent ways, and to which there have been no easy answers. To suddenly ask the question as if it never occurred to anyone is what the problem is - it's a problem of ignorance. It's like saying "haven't we ever thought of just, you know, manufacturing more things in the USA?"
30
@retired guy ... because the point was that it's a question that has been raised, and that continues to be raised, over and over again, sometimes in quite violent ways, and to which there have been no easy answers. And it's a problem that Britain itself has massively perpetuated. To suddenly ask the question as if it never occurred to anyone is what the problem is - it's a problem of ignorance. It's like saying "haven't we ever thought of just, you know, ending racial disparity?"
@retired guy ... because the point was that it's a question that has been raised, and that continues to be raised, over and over again, sometimes in quite violent ways, and to which there have been no easy answers. And it's a problem that Britain itself has massively perpetuated. AND, the very people who now support Brexit, belong to a political party that not so long ago had as one of its main tenets the continued unification of Britain & Northern Ireland - ie the disunification of Ireland. This guy belongs to a politics that actually tried to work against what he is now just suggesting everyone do, as if there's no contradiction there. To suddenly ask the question as if it never occurred to anyone is what the problem is - it's a problem of ignorance. It's like someone who supported the politics of Jim Crow suddenly saying "haven't we ever thought of just, you know, ending racial disparity?"
3
Excellent piece. Some of the letters give me hope. There are many people out there who not only have a "sense" of history, but actually know and understand history and they are not afraid to write meaningful letters. Not all, of course, sadly. Thank you for being engaged and enraged. Please stay the course. We need you.
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Conservatism really is afflicted, in both the U.S. and Great Britain, with classic nostalgia: the dream of a return to a time and way of living that never really existed, with no practical path to achieving that impossible dream.
Some of the politicians leading the way towards this fantasy are afflicted themselves, but many are just leaning into the idiocy as a means to power.
Haven't we been in this awful place before? And how did things turn out?
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Bravo. Brilliantly stated. What is wrong with these good people? Sophist? Willfully Ignorant? Just plain stupid? Please return to your senses. Humanity needs you and there is no time to waste.
24
These folks (trump, bojo, farage et al) have successfully invoked deep tribal feelings in the hearts of their supporters. There is no rational or policy-based way to justify the level of support for these guys - just as there was no way to justify the level of support that Hitler or other genocidal dictators had. It’s a combination of fear which keeps people in line - fear of being ridiculed for taking a position different from your peers or fear of being jailed or killed. And the pleasure of denigrating and fighting and vanquishing others that don’t belong to your tribe.
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Agree with your sentiment, and I’ll wager the path out of this condition involves making the non-conformist once again the hero. We’re all far too attached to our personal status quo. The act of life changing sacrifice, like risking your comfort, your safety and even your life for the greater good, must return to “fashion”. Embrace the challenges that face all of humanity. Don’t look backward anymore-there is nothing there for anyone.
19
@Brian Cornelius pretty funny. Gave me a great laugh
1
If one of the consequences of Brexit is a speeding up of the reunification of the Irish nation, and a correcting of one of the starkest geopolitical wrongs of the last century, that is fine by me. The young man who appeared on the BBC programme clearly knows which way the wind is blowing.
The bottom line is, the unnatural, undemocratic partition of Ireland has served not only the Irish terribly, it has also given the British huge, huge headaches over the years. As with the turtle necked young man, Brexit has made the British at large realise that they can't get the kind of independence they crave without ridding themselves of an ill-gotten colonial millstone. The irony runs deep.
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@Macca Yes, but who will pay the price when, once more, it comes down to bullets and explosives?
@Hugo van den Berg The Irish, as before. Both of them.
1
I wish I could be equally bemused about our American conservatives.
People who spent their entire public lives accusing others of being insufficiently praiseworthy of America (remember Obama's alleged apology tour)... and now adore a President that defends Vladimir Putin's murders by saying "You think our country's so innocent?"
People who spent their entire public lives glorifying U.S. military, national security, and law enforcement organizations... and then instantly spun on their heels to announce they're all part of a deep state conspiracy.
We won't even get into "character," or "limited government," or "crony capitalism" or concerns about the "imperial presidency"...
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@Bill Camarda That is a very good point and we must wonder how the top brass in the US military really feels about all of this. Protection of the fatherland and adherence to GOP values (at least as expressed on the surface) are so deeply intwined in their psyche, what are they to do now that the two have gone off in diametrically opposed directions?
2
@Bill Camarda
Explanations for these "transformations" among leadership:
a) follow the money
b) check out Russian kompromat
c) US as a budding kleptocracy
d) testosterone, or conversely, fear of loss of testosterone and fear of impotence
1
I tried to see Turtleneck Man on YOu Tube but they only have a 'humorous' satirised version with loud music interspersed with Alan Partridge.
1
@Lawrence Linehan It's here: the longer clip. Don't miss the comments. :)
https://www.irishpost.com/news/question-time-audience-member-sparks-fury-idea-united-ireland-172721
2
@Bill Camarda
The man's a genius as they say in Ireland.
All true, and even worse, if you extend the logic of Brexit that we must 'protect our sovereignty' from unelected officials, from unwanted immigrants, from 'them' etc etc, you end up with an argument for breaking up the UK, after all, the Scottish have the same reasons for wanting to leave our union that we're using to justify leaving the EU...
And why stop there? Let's break up England itself, after all, it was also the product of unity forced on the independent English kingdoms, to produce the 'United' Kingdom. The inhabitnats of those other kingdoms felt the same way Brexit supporters feel about the EU.
Even the premise if Brexit is foolish, short sighted, and completely lacks a historical perspective on how we arrived at this country that they so want to protect.
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@Rich
Yes. But they don't really want to protect our sovereignty, just theirs, and that of people just like them (hence the classic Brexiteer response telling people to leave if they don't like it). They really do not care about anyone else, much less our society as a whole. For all the talk of national sovereignty, British exceptionalism, etc., they have no real sense of nationhood, no national solidarity. So now, after years of scoffing and belittling those they perceive as lower down the economic scale than themselves, anyone who needs a helping hand from society, many now feel emboldened to insult and reject anyone not from their own bailiwick. Not just people from other EU countries, but even their fellow citizens.
Or maybe they always did and I never realised. During the summer in my local John Lewis I was told by a Scottish girl working there that she had been living just outside the city for a couple of years (with her local boyfriend), and was regularly asked, fairly aggressively, why she was here, taking a job a local could have been doing. Told that she wasn't welcome. Asked why she didn't just go home, etc etc. To Scotland, for God's sake. And this in - or close to - a very diverse and outward-lookjing city that voted Remain, where half the population have Irish roots. I can't imagine what it is like in the many small towns that voted Leave.
27
What a mess. Even Boris Johnson doesn’t quite seem to understand what Brexit means, as per his many negotiation failures in Brussels and Parliament. Indeed, like Trump, Johnson relied on Putin’s intervention to win the first referendum and premiership and now maybe the upcoming December elections. The Guardian just reported that “No 10 refuses to clear release of report into Russian political interference before election.” Why the hesitancy and mystery? This can’t end up well.
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@Ted Boris Johnson probably understands very well that Brexit is a vacuous non-concept, and what he even understands better is how to manipulate the sort of folk who voted to Leave.
With jingoism as a safe fall-back position (from the point of view of domestic politics), his antics in his dealings with the EU are just a matter of seeing what he might get away with. His apparent failures in this regard are part of this strategy.
4
Excellent.
I have been baffled by this the Brits capacity to appreciate the existence of other countries, but the toddler analogy is “spot on”. Like a toddlers failure to understand the separate existence of others, I believe the islanders mentality is based in the idea that the island is separate (and, probably, the whole).
21
@Hcase Erving
Do you not find it interesting that a huge nation like the USA has an insular mentality ,not understanding the separate existence and value of other countries ?
9
I’m reminded of the, probably apocryphal, British newspaper headline:
“Fog in the channel. Continent cut off”
2
Seamus, your article was a good read. QT is off my viewing list; a weekly acquaintance with Turtleneck Man is too disruptive to one's equilibrium, plus exposure to opinionated panel show guests has outlived all entertainment. An echo chamber extolling the absurdity of Brexit.
The architects of the Black and Tans have risen from the ashes in the Tory party we see. Glib, superficial with no acceptance of consequences, Ireland is a distant place, bigger than Jersey but remote enough to dismiss from English concerns. A misconception which has exposed the major Brexit flaw; upholding the GFA in its entirety, which Europe has done well defending from rampaging brexiters.
Whilst it is no longer 1922, colonial attitudes have persisted. What England has failed to comprehend is that they are no longer dealing with a recalcitrant country seeking independence. Its dealing with an advanced nation with clout, backed by 27 nations and an international treaty. There are limits to their superiority. Poetic justice for centuries of hubris!
The English narrative of "we voted out" doesn't hold much water in the great scheme of things. The travesty and Tory crime of applying simpleton logic to the complexity of trading, constitutional, and international relations will live with us long after this scandalous regime is removed from power. So, we'd better be on the look out for a proper statesman because remedying the mayhem caused will challenge even the most gifted among us!
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@Third Day Absolutely!
5
Clear & insightful commentary, but how do we (Americans) & they (Great Britain, Ireland & the EU.) get out of the messes we're mired in. Only time will tell, because no one seems to have a clear & workable way forward.
18
@Doug Sure there is a way forward. The British governed Ireland as a whole for centuries until 1921. Northern Ireland is the fruit of English conservatism's effort to retain a piece of the Empire a hundred years ago. All they need to do is undo that mistake.
12
@Jim Linnane But how far are the Unionists prepared to go to prevent this?
Answer: to the very last drop of blood, their own and anyone else who stands in their way.
@Jim Linnane I have been reading novels by Derek Fee set in Belfast and NI and referencing 20th C history and its fascinating fare - amazing how little we can know about the world even presumptively "internationalists". https://www.derekfee.com/
What an excellent piece of writing. And it feels good to see the vexing problem of Turtleneck Man, so common now on both sides of the pond, articulated. I've given up trying to make clear in any casual conversation about America's current political dystopia how frustrating it is to be faced with tens of millions of people who seem to have just lost their minds, who seem incapable of seeing a tin-pot wannabe like Trump in any sort of historical context, who are apparently so bereft of reasoned thought that they can't see what's wrong with evangelicals blindly supporting this charlatan and why it's a bad idea to use taxpayer money for oppo research on political rivals. The sheer number of these people beggars belief. What are we to do? Who will lead us out of this wilderness? I'm just not optimistic. Sometimes, the bad guys win.
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@Sarah / Well, ignorance and tribalism are incubated and enabled by help of IT-devices like Twitter and FB. I believe a female engaged in the 2020 election drama want to solve that problem. What's her name now again? Anyway, she has a plan for that. It gives me hope.
19
wonderful writing....
24
I can’t disagree with most of the premise of this article. But please remember not to conflate the stupid actions of our governing class with 100% of our citizens. Over 48% of us voted to have nothing to do with this mental endeavour from the very beginning and many others voted out solely to stick one up to the overlords knowing full well that the thing they voted for wasn’t the answer. They didn’t expect to win. But now we’re stuck and deservedly a laughing stock. Sadly many of my fellow citizens still don’t get it and think we just “have to get it done”. I’d like to take the opportunity to apologise to the other nations of the U.K., especially Scotland which has been sorely tested by central government since Thatcher.
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@Michael For the benefit of US readers: "mental" means crazy.
3
@Hugo van den Berg We know that. We watched the Pythons.
2
Well, it's time to use the NYT search box for "Seamas O'Reilly" in hopes that you've written other essays. I'll read every one of them. This is pellucid writing! Thank you!!
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@Leslie It's his first time here, but he regularly writes for the Guardian UK
19
@Leslie I've already started following The Irish Post in the hopes of seeing more of Seamus O'Reilly's writing.
1
So interesting, and wonderful turns of phrase. Three cheers for this one in particular: "Here is the platonic ideal of cheerful entitlement, the holotype of every guy who has ever raised a hand in class to proffer “more of a comment than a question.”"
The speed with which ideologues in both countries have abandoned their prior non-negotiables in favor of a total trashing or sense, ethics, and brains in service to their own rapaciousness is stunning. Can we--will we--ever recover?
46
"... we Irish recreationally hate on Britain..." - really? This once was true, but in recent years less & less so. In any case, speaking as a Dubliner I can assure the writer that no actual Irish person would ever "hate on Britain" ... clearly a recent Americanism.
7
@Colm During two recent visits to Ireland, I heard from several taxi drivers and hotel workers and high tech colleagues who demonstrated to me, anyways, "hate on Britain." So much so, that I have remarked about it to family and friends back home. Perhaps you were on sounder footing to say "once true but in recent years less and less" that in saying "no actual Irish person."
7
Everyone should know history thoroughly. It's not hard, and not knowing history in detail leaves the average person incapable of making well-informed decisions based on a wide-ranging perspective on human experience. We should probably not even allow people who don't have a decent command of the facts of the past a right to vote.
15
@Jay Knowing history thoroughly and in detail would be exceptionally difficult (I'd say impossible) for even the most dedicated historian. There is simply far too much of it for any one person to know.
That said, most people could do a much better job of mastering the basics.
22
@Jay
Well informed intelligent people can't agree on the nature of current events -
never mind history.
As for your proposed voting restrictions, germs of that sort of elitist and profoundly anti-democratic thinking infect so many of those who claim to defend democracy against Trump/Brexit/populism.
Why not simply restrict the right to vote to those with an IQ of 150 or greater?
That would not only exclude most of the deplorables but would also rid us of the vast majority of those tiresome self-proclaimed liberals.
A win-win!
5
@Jay
Well informed intelligent people can't agree on the nature of current events -
never mind history.
As for your proposed voting restrictions, germs of that sort of elitist and profoundly anti-democratic thinking infect so many of those who claim to defend democracy against Trump/Brexit/populism.
Why not simply restrict the right to vote to those with an IQ of 150 or greater?
That would not only exclude most of the deplorables but would also rid us of the vast majority of those tiresome self-proclaimed liberals.
A win-win!
Brilliant piece. Loved every word. Turtleneck Man continues to abide on both sides of the Atlantic. They always want the rest of us to just 'get over it' and let go of history.
We're more than happy to do so, to wake from the nightmares of the past as the Ulysses quote at the end of this piece puts it. We want to put history's nightmares to rest but we're not willing to do that until those who are oblivious to those nightmares at least acknowledge them. It's not about apportioning blame either: it's about understanding and acknowledging the past so we can move on. Denying the past just keeps us stuck in a nightmare.
42
@MB Right. The case of slavery in the U.S. comes to mind.
10
Where to start? Failing to learn - doomed to repeat. Every generation that has been taught to ignore the legacies will seek to dismiss them. How wonderful it would be if we could start over without the burdens and the constraints of what has come before us. The impetus and fantasy of every "revolution" and Utopia dream. One must continually remember Hanlon's razor and seeks to attribute the resulting mess to neglect, ignorance and incompetence rather than malice, even when the results are violence and destruction. Then there are the shills and grifters who seek to ride the wave of ignorance; the Bexiteers, the Trumpists and the alt right riding the current wave. Extremists and psychopaths of all stripes of politics and religion in other venues and times. Not creating anything better, just adding their noxious discharge into a pool of human misery, thinking they are geniuses and God's gift to humanity. Why does anyone listen to them?
40
That is a question I have been puzzling over for some considerable time. Why do they listen to baseless lies and deception? It's just weird.
15
@Third Day Because they want to, it's that simple, although psychologists would describe it as 'confirmation bias', or Delusion' or whichever of the psychological machanisms describe the phenomena for each individual.
You do it too.... we all do it to some extent or other.
That being said then, a better question is 'How do we persuade them to change their views given the reasons they believe things that are demonstrably not true?'
16
"Like a toddler struggling with object permanence, the U.K. acts as if other countries exist only when it chooses to look at them. " Priceless.
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@Ernie Cohen
& with obvious echoes of the US and its attitude to other countries
33
That's got to be a classic. Heavens above, this is what we are like, well some of us that is. Notions of grandeur and some silly idea that our past genocides are something of acclaim because we won. In the present, Ireland have the statesmen; firm and consistent whilst brexiters scramble about for solutions to their impossible dream.
Turtleneck man has become because politicians have chosen conduct and attitudes which belong in another age; Cromwell's. Serious responsibilities of Office go unheeded in this government but the disease of nationalism rarely has a happy ending. The tragedy for the UK is that it has gained traction with a segment who are Ill equipped to process its ramifications.
23
@Ernie Cohen Probably the best sentence I've read this year.
18
At last, a well-considered summary of the current overcooked state of the (dis)United Kingdom's political stew. I can only hope that this current turmoil is the history of our isles discarding its scabrous serpentine skin in order to reveal a renewed cleaner version. Correcting itself. Dissolving unions that were only workable while the masses were maintained in a state of distracted ignorance. Pandora's Box is open. The genie has vacated the lamp. Brexit shone a torch on the border that the Irish had always seen for what it was. A colonial anachronism. The 2014 referendum in Scotland, the broken promises that followed and Brexit fuelled a new enlightenment in Scotland. Now being dragged out of the European Union against their stated will, Scots are now more politically aware than they ever were. The "too wee, too poor, too dumb" gambit is now a busted flush. The only obvious answer to any of this is Independence for England. Dissolve the Unions. It is only England who want out of Europe. The new pattern on the new skin is emerging before our eyes at a rate faster than anyone could have imagined and lo and behold that skin is has no Union Jack pattern on it!
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@Mike McMonagle What a poignantly crafted comment, Mike. Thank you.
8
@Mike McMonagle
Wales voted Leave as well.
In the immediate aftermath of the Brexit referendum, the SNP pushed for a second referendum on Scottish independence immediately. They drew back when it became apparent that a significant proportion of the Scottish supporters of leaving the UK were also supporters of leaving the EU - being at least consistent in their attitudes to political unions.
In other words, supporting Scottish separation and supporting remaining in the EU did not coincide in terms of voter intentions quite as much as the Snippies might have wished.
4
@Mike McMonagle "only England"...and Wales, apparently, bafflingly, although I am told this was carried by the English who live and vote in the area.
2
I wonder if the root of the problem is that conservatism on part of the public relies more on conformance to their leader(s) than independent thought? "Turtleneckman" is not a leader of the "conservative" movement, rather a follower.
Brixit is not an independent grassroots movement- rather, mischief created by Farage, Boris (which is well documented doesn't care about it one way or the other- it's just means to power) and other grifter's who are making personal hay at the expense of the future of the country.
Similarly, Trump is a monster that is a natural progression of the type of non-thinking, xenophobic and class-warfare politics created and championed by the extreme right from the 90's- a-la right wing talk radio and Fox news. It's well documented that the "Teaparty" was actually quite actively seeded and propagated by the Koch brothers and of course again by the right wing talk radio and FOX news.
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As Shakespeare famously called Great Britain - "perfidious Albion."
But internationally, a bigger problem is we seem to be electing entertainers as leaders of our countries. In the Ukraine a television comedian heads the government. In the UK, a clown is in charge first establishing his bone fides as a guest on a panel show. And of course in the US, the reality show personality was elected who, if not for the show, would have been a marginal real estate crook from New York more or less unknown to the rest of the country.
I now have a new found respect for professional politicians.
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@Tom: Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. But it wasn't Shakespeare; it was originally an 18th century French phrase, "la perfide Albion". For Shakespeare, England was "this sceptred isle ... this other Eden, demi-paradise / This fortress built by Nature for her self / Against infection and the hand of war, / This happy breed of men, this little world, / This precious stone set in a silver sea / Which serves it in the office of a wall / Or as a moat defensive to a house, / Against the envy of less happier lands, / This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."
It's beautiful poetry, but very dangerous. In fact, I'd venture to claim that it's this kind of thinking, going back centuries, that lies at the root of Britain's current insanity.
Walls and moats to protect us against those who envy us. Any of that sound familiar?
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@Tom You've hit on one of the serious problems of democracy. Voters voting for a familiar face without knowing what their policy impacts may be.
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@Tom Thank you, have citizens lost their minds? Silly question, of course they have.
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It started as feud within the Conservative party, it continued with the foolish decision to leave to the people (lead by rigged social media) the understanding of a very complex matter, it evolved into a referendum with a thin majority (60% should have been more appropriate for such a matter), it ended up with an administrative and geopolitical disaster that will transform for ever the UK as we know it, reducing England and Wales (the "Irish Island" and Scotland have no intention to stay) in to a minuscule, autonomous, if not ridiculous, province-state of Europe. The Russian and Trump America soon will fight for a new colony.
If you still think that Italian politics (predictable, in a way, for its stable mess) wins the gold medal for being impossible to understand, think twice.
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Nice to have more Irish contributors...but, and forgive the small town grievances being carried to the wider stage, please can we not have James Joyce every time - see also Flann O'Brien Heaney, and Kavanagh.....
Lets not export the peculiarities of the opinion page of the Irish Times, where the topic of the Irishmans Diary column cycles through the aforementioned pausing only to tell "untold" stories of Irish soldiers at Paschendaele and Plassey, to more eclectic establishments.
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@Robert I think this was an example of Joyce "one time", rather than "every time". This is O'Reilly's first article for NYT... However your comment made me smile as I know Seamas is a huge Flann O'Brien fan and he frequently drops him into his articles in Ireland and the UK.
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Thank you for this.
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