Religion is an obvious issue. Some Hawaiians think their religion is more important than the religion of other Hawaiians, and their story is popular with the media.
100 years ago there were 9 known planets. Currently (as of March 2019) there are 3,925 planets known to us and we think there are at least 100 billion planets in the Milky Way, which is our galaxy. That piece of information changes everything. We also know now that Mars and likely Venus once had livable conditions for the things alive on earth. But today we have not found any life there. This suggests that we need to take care of the earth that we have because we have proof that is can become uninhabitable. Religion is a force, science is a force. Looking at the history of religion, I prefer Science.
27
Science vs superstition. Sorry, I'm with science.
48
Build the telescope! Sacred ground? The whole earth is "sacred". At 14,000 feet, and away from light pollution, this is just a uniquely great place to up the telescope. It is not an offense to anyone's culture. This is a made-up controversy by people looking for a made-up controversy.
52
With due respect to past achievements of all of our forebears, navigation by GPS accurate to within a meter is now the commoditised norm.
Multiple primitive societies developed heuristics for navigating by the stars.
Why so ?
Well, in general, human beings all have eyes and we can see the stars at night.
Simple observations reveal the patterns by which the stars appear to move in the night sky and how they might be used as a navigational aid.
It simply is not rocket science.
The first people argument is absurd because it is so arbitrary.
Should we hand the planet back to the closest surviving apes ?
Does the entire Earth still belong to the first people of Africa ?
Human beings have climbed mountains to admire the view for as long as history has been recorded.
It’s simply now we have very sophisticated technological eyes with which to look at the Universe.
Astrophysical data helps us test our fundamental physical theories, the very things that may one day have our exploring species travelling the great oceans of space between the stars.
Superstition won’t.
Fortunately, there’s room for science and tradition atop many mountains and cohabitation may well help keep traditions and history alive.
Unlike Uluru which has been crossed off the bucket list now that most human beings are not “allowed” to climb it anymore.
It’s now just a rock in the middle of a flat boring continent on the surface of a bigger rock, three out from the Sun.
12
Dr. Huth argues that the Thirty-Meter Telescope need not be built on Mauna Kea, claiming that the Canary Islands' La Palma alternate location "is more than sufficient to fulfill its scientific mission."
But examining his one-page curriculum vitae at the Harvard University website reveals that his expertise is in high-energy particle physics. Much of his scientific research has been conducted at Fermilab (Batavia, Illinois) and the Large Hadron Collider in Europe.
Cosmology, astronomy, astrophysics and high-energy particle physics have their intersections, such as "dark energy" and "dark matter." These are research interests of Dr. Huth's. But the professor apparently has no experience as an observational astronomer. This makes me question the soundness of his judgment on the suitability of the La Palma site.
40
@A. Reader He is just wrong, and it looks like he is knowingly making wrong claims. Could TMT be built on La Palma? Sure - but the viewing conditions are significantly worse compared to Mauna Kea. This has been studied by astronomers and it is uncontroversial among the experts. If La Palma would have equal viewing conditions then it would have been the primary choice because it would have avoided most of the protests.
(Another high energy particle physicist here)
8
I am sorry to see the author fall prey to the straw-man polemic originally circulated on Facebook. Between the amazing Polynesian-Hawaiian discoveries of yore and today's exploration of the deeper cosmos, there exists no conflict--indeed, only confirmation. Allegations of religious significance at the new telescope's site, which is not at the mountain summit, are an opportunistic recent invention. Hawaiians are right to see their history as one that includes injustice, but the new telescope is no injustice. Rather, the TMT was approved and reapproved at more than a dozen stages of permit hearings and court cases, each of which was participated in by the individuals who now propose to reject those processes' legitimacy. There are no people who admire and respect the Mauna Kea mountain more than the hundreds of workers at the Mauna Kea's existing telescopes, including myself.
65
@Bernie Walp
Plain truth spoken by a Big Island resident....
There are legitimate complaints with how the UH and others have managed the Mauna Kea site, but the TMT sponsors have pledged to greatly improve the stewardship of the summit and the protesters don't represent the majority of people in Hawaii - or even the majority of those of Hawaiian descent.
How can we work together to solve our many problems if process and the rule of law don't mean anything anymore?
I hope a compromise can be reached that will allow TMT to be built in Hawaii.
15
I’ve always had problem with arguments like this. Why should science and discovery take a backseat to ridiculous primitive religious beliefs? Enough already. Build the observatory.
42
Think about how many have suffered and died over religious squabbles and unpleasantness.
Think about how many lives have been saved and enriched with medicine and science.
Superstition, mysticism, and the beliefs in manufactured gods has been the worst thing for this planet.
O ye fools ... Tear down all these temples to false gods ...!
(Or at least make them pay their fair share in taxes.)
14
Religion, superstition should never trump science. Over 70% of native Hawaiians support construction of the TMT. Our economy is weak. The vocal minority tries to keep us in the stone ages growing papayas and pineapples. It's time to move on and build TMT.
239
@David Currier, highly credible polls show that roughly 44% of native Hawaiians support the 30-meter telescope.
As an engineer with a deep background in astrophysics, I'm all for the 30-meter scope being built. However, as a student of history, I am sensitive to the historical atrocities and genocide of indigenous peoples -- including the native Hawaiians -- by the US government and its big money backers.
The solution to this impasse is simple: Build the telescope elsewhere. The high plains in Peru are as good or better than the summit of Mauna Kea when it comes to stable dry air, but putting the scope in space would be far better. No place on earth would be nearly as good as orbit for the 30-meter scope.
6
@David Currier
I'd hope everyone would be able to work together for the betterment of humanity. Maybe give native Hawaiians naming rights to the telescope, or some similar concession?
1
@Thomas Hardy
You must also know that an orbiting telescope lacks many advantages of a surface telescope. Most obviously, it is vastly more expensive. It is also very difficult to repair, adjust, or upgrade. It cannot be retroactively fitted with special instruments for special observations. Weight is a major consideration in equipping it.
5
We are a nation founded on constitutional law.
Should a religious belief supercede our constitution?
4
My relevant rules are ‘don’t cause offense, if possible’ and ‘don’t put religion ahead of science’. So don’t climb Uluru, but no, the sun does not orbit the earth, and yes, TMT should be built.
2
Well, the choice seems to be to pray to the mountain and feel good while learning nothing, or climb it and use its heights to touch the stars with our minds.
Ignorance, whether it is Christianity claiming the historic existence of a Demi-god (who was white they say), or an incoherent, ancient animistic religion, has no lessons left to teach.
5
How sympathetic would the coverage be if it were fundamentalist Christians protesting construction of a scientific instrument?
3
Can we share it? Can we love each other, instead of shaming?
We, humans, are given this amazing gift of the rational mind. Its purpose is to seek the understsanding of the world around us -- by learning the mental models, emulating things in real life. In effect, a rational mind runs a computer simulation of the real world and uses it to predict real-world outcomes.
No other species can do that. This is what makes us human. Advancing our knowledge of the world around us, seeking that universal truth out there is as human as it gets! It gives us consciosness, it makes us self-aware bc one of the first models we learn is of ourselves. It lets us see ourselves from aside, a part of that bigger simulation of objective reality. It makes us do the right thing and make ethical choices because good and evil are objective and universal -- insofar as pleasure and pain are universal.*
These days, many people prefer not to think. Powerful and ancient forces are hard at work, encouraging us to rely on the irrational part of the human mind, the one we share with animals. It makes us 100% subjective, incapable of seeing something as objective, universally true. The only truth it knows is it's own. It never sees itself as wrong.
A rational person cannot be evil. But an irrational can, and that potential is by no means wasted.
https://tinyurl.com/y3a4do8n
* we know when we hurt others, and then it's the matter of why we do it? Doing it for our own benefit makes it objectively evil.
2
How are we to explore the universe if we have to stop every time someone's mythical demigods must be bowed to?
6
Religion has always tried to block advances in human knowledge and empowerment. This is no different. I guess we should be happy they aren't burning people at the stake this time.
3
What could be more respectful to the gods than building machines to gaze more closely at stars that guided the Hawaiian people across the oceans aeons ago?
4
"Something is rotten in the Kingdom of Denmark", when a Harvard professor of physics argues against the location of a telescope on a piece of land believed to be holy by the some of the indigenous population of the 50th State. Are his reservations based on some known incompatibility of star-gazing or astronomical observations with the holiness of the site, or are they mere expressions of touchy-feeliness and coochiemouchieness by a politically correct leftist radical Democrat?
1
Tyranny of the Minority. Science should March.
2
Professor Huth’s article is really a disservice to the New York Times readers because it distorts what these protest are really about and because of the relevant information it ignores. Jamaica Osorio, one of the “kia‘i” (protectors) who chained themselves to the cattle crossing on the Mauna Kea access road at the outset of the protests, says she is a “Hawaiian revolutionary” who wants to make her homeland an independent state. She explains quite clearly what is "sacred" and what the protest is all about. “Mauna Kea is sacred because we gather to protect her. Because we consecrate her in our resistance to American force, occupation and colonialism.” The protectors also claim that their protests have exposed “corruption” in the system which they define broadly as state government serving any private interests such as the TMT International Observatory.
In March 2018 the Honolulu Star-Advertiser commissioned a poll which showed that 72% of Native Hawaiian registered voters expressed support for the telescope, while only 23 percent were against it. Professor Huth is also wrong about a purported disconnect between Western science and the achievements of the Polynesian voyagers. The vast majority of Native Hawaiians and of the multi cultural residents of the Hawaiian Islands support and applaud both. Here are the facts about Mauna Kea and the TMT which Professor Huth ignores. http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org/facts-about-tmt/
4
The three years I lived on the Big Island of Hawaii revealed a community riddled with drug addiction and a misplaced sense of entitlement based on a supposed tradition of Polynesia.
Hating the haole community has become a way of establishing a false Hawaii identity. It’s an excuse for staying in the state to grovel in self pity instead of joining many other Hawaiians on the mainland to forge a productive life.
Las Vegas has so many Hawaiians that it is called the ninth island of Hawaii. Mainland Hawaiians work hard, many going to college to advance a career.
After we sold our house in Leilani Estates near Pahoa, over ten years passed before the volcano exploded twice destroying many homes and forever changing the livability of the community.
I wonder whether the native Hawaiians believe that the volcano was punishing the haoles for living where they didn’t belong?
3
What better use for a sacred mountain than searching the heavens?
4
Clips of these protesters are going to be playing on RT, I can assure you of that.
Don't we honor God by seeking to learn her mysteries?
2
I'm Kanaka Maoli and I support TMT on Maunakea. John Huth made the most unfortunate mistake of ignoring the voices of native Hawaiians who support this project, astronomy on Maunakea. We see modern astronomy, TMT as another path for us to follow in the path of our kupuna, the finest naked eye astronomers in the world. But our voices are ignored by all science writers because these folks are deaf, they don't want to see us or talk with us; more than likely because it we don't fit their story. We are not sad little brown people, we are modern and we do it all. We are great at astronomy, physics, robotics, coding & NASA engineers & more. We work at observatories, labs because we are scientists. If you want to help Hawaiians then support our astronomy & physics graduate students. Everyday we face a community that ostracizes us for wanting to study the universe. We're called "fake Hawaiians" and worse, we recieve threats of violence and death, racist vitriol is directed at us on social media. Our families and friends shun us for wanting to studying the earliest galaxies and stars in the universe. Why should we stop pursuing knowledge? Hawaii is not a theocracy, we are the 50th State and our parents voted for statehood to get out from the iron fisted grip of the Big 5. Support the Hawaiians who want freedom to learn, to pursue their goals as astronomers or physicists. Help us succeed and follow our dreams. ImuaTMT
5
Nothing more of confusing and mind degrading. Are we all become nuts and should swallow this points and reasoning?
Indigenous spirituality I get.
Indigenous science? What is that?
Science practiced by indigenous people?
Like Chinese science, Icelandic science, New England
science, ... ?
Possibly you want cosmology in place of science.
There is the cosmology of the bible, the cosmology of Stephen Hawking, Mayan cosmology, ... . Are the laser, semi-conductors,
plate tectonics the product of any of these cosmologies?
It seems like traditional Native Hawaiian knowledge and beliefs might be respectfully blended with modern astrophysical information to benefit current and future Hawai’i keiki.
Since Nainoa Thompson is mentioned in the article, this link from the Polynesian Voyaging Society’s website explaining how both types of celestial knowledge were vital to the origins of Hokulea and its voyages might be of interest. Hawaii’s Bishop Museum Planetarium lecturer Will Kyselka relates how he worked with Nainoa in these efforts. Mr. Kyselka and Planetarium manager, Dr. Walter Steiger, my step-father, were later honored by the Polynesian Voyaging Society as Wayfinders linking traditional and modern knowledge.
Both respected Native Hawaiian traditions and sought ways to link them with the future.
http://archive.hokulea.com/index/founder_and_teachers/will_kyselka.html
3
Some, a minority, of native Hawaiians, would do almost anything to spite the "white" occupiers. Racist? You bet. Happy to avail themselves of anything they like (e.g. flying on jets to the mainland and around the world) but adamantly opposed to anything they don't identify with. The vast majority of people on the Big Island and in Hawaii as a whole support the 30 meter telescope. That is not good enough for the vocal and racist minority.
Native American religions are no better than Eastern or Western religions. We should out grow them all. Build the telescope.
2
If these protesters were Evangelical Christians and this was a scared Christian mountain, would we care?
How do you know the aboriginal Guanches of the Canary islands might not be slighted by locating the telescope there?
1
Hawaiians navigated to tiny pacific islands before the advent of 'Western' navigation
But haoli's on the moon
wrt Gil Scott Heron
Delusion and ignorance are the universal eigenvalues shared by all religions--especially the cult of political correctness.
1
I'm honestly confused by this piece. This gentleman is a professor physics at Harvard, yet his objection to the placement of something that will advance his field and humankind's knowledge of the cosmos is based on spirituality and ancient religion. Is this for real? Please tell me this op-ed is a joke.
2
Enough commentators have picked apart the author's shoddy argument here. I'm really disappointed that the NYT felt that this was the best critical piece they could have published on this significant issue. For example a Native Hawaiian practitioner or an astronomer who uses the telescopes on the mountain, or even one who does both (they do exist). Or was it simply that the author is at Harvard and thus his sacred thoughts must be heard.
2
I think some wool has been pulled over Professor Huth's eyes.
1
Stupidity.
This article by John Edward Huth is exemplary.
It breaks my heart every time I hear a story about another young local family that has to leave Hawai'i and their family so that they can find a decent paying job on the Mainland. Yet the TMT protestors state that they do not want good paying construction and high tech jobs for them or their children. They consider the mountain to be sacred, but not the future of na keiki.
122
@John Patt
This Honolulu resident totally agrees...Mahalo John!
8
This article is a good illustration of why people from the mainland really need to just stay out of this very complicated and fraught discussion.
Among other things, Prof. Huth creates the perception that native Hawaiians are monolithic on this subject, when in fact they are far from being so. One reliable poll indicates that native Hawaiian support for TMT is 44%, and overall state-wide support is about 64%.
It's also important to remember than in a democracy, no single group of people gets a veto over legally permitted projects. Support for TMT is also about upholding liberal values and the rule of law.
But at the very least, haole professors who don't live in Hawaii should not presume to understand the complexities of the issues here, nor should they engage in patronizing attitudes towards native Hawaiians - which is precisely what Prof. Huth is doing.
180
@John Burnett Perfectly stated.
17
@John Burnett Hi John. I was reticent to wade into this except for the fact that I was on the UH Manoa staff and/or faculty (geosciences) from 1987-2001 and am just familiar enough with this issue to probably make a fool of myself. But that never stopped me before...
And you hit the nail on the head.
20
@John Burnett - I would welcome your opinion on any matter here on the mainland.
9
If, as the Hawaiian historian speculates, Mauna Kea was once a traditional astronomical observation platform, I can't think of a more appropriate place to put this telescope. And I can't think of a more "sacred" purpose than expanding our knowledge of the universe. There must be better ways to honor Hawaiian history and traditions than to prevent its construction.
53
I guess it’s a fair question to ask if we would want a cell phone tower on top of Mt Rushmore.
8
@Prudence Spencer Indeed. And it might have been a fair question to ask the Native Americans if they wanted the images of four dead white guys carved onto their sacred mountain.
5
@Prudence Spencer I live near Mt Rushmore and if I could get some reception I could go for that.
3
My nom-de-comments is a Hawaiian word meaning savvy.
Even If the mountain is sacred, its "desecration" is the least of the injustices heaped upon Native Hawaiians. Their kings and queens gave away most of the land; then the monarchy was overthrown by American businessmen, completely illegally.
Hawaiians were not allowed to speak Hawaiian in their own schools. Whatever land was left was sold for development. On Hawaii Island's Hamakua coast of 40 miles, there are four little parks. The rest of the oceanfront cliff is for fancy private houses. The Department of Hawaiian Homelands has a backlog of, I believe, 40 years to provide land for Hawaiians to live on. The State starves the schools of needed money.
And so on.
But "winning" on the mauna will get the Hawaiians nothing. They need to concentrate on battles that will gain them something worth gaining.
41
To me, astronomy is sacred.
5
Born in 1951, I've witnessed the rise and now fall of the modern era. After Greece, Rome, England, the U.S. and now Brazil used their science/technology to destroy indigenous cultures/environments, lost was the wisdom of how to live in the only home we have: earth. Instead, science feeds the illusion that the earth can be dominated and controlled to man/ego satisfaction. The peek fascination with space is particularly amusing since we are doing little to save the earth from becoming unlivable. When every billionaire has a rocket ship we have truly given up on our home.
I fervently hope a path forward can be found to construct the TMT while also addressing satisfactorily the cultural concerns of the Hawaiian people. It troubles me to read so many comments deriding the protestors' viewpoints as "superstitious." They deserve respect and inclusion.
I've visited the Mauna Kea summit twice and seen the interior of the Keck Telescopes there. It was an amazing experience. I hope the TMT will be providing breathtaking science during my lifetime.
And to put that timescale in perspective, in 1955 I was four years old when I had the opportunity to see the Mount Palomar telescope while traveling with my scientist parents during a road trip across Pre-Interstate America. It was the world's largest telescope then with a 200-inch mirror (that's a bit more than 5 meters) and our perception of the universe didn't reach much beyond our Milky Way Galaxy.
Those scientists were such a superstitious bunch back then and their tools were so primitive. ;-)
3
I find it a shame that native culture hasn't welcomed modern science and learning to their unique mountain top. Traditional rituals and celebrations aren't incompatible with the love of knowledge. It's not like an ICBM silo is proposed for the site.
14
@Revvv ANative culture that thrived. A native culture that had amonarchy A monarchy that was overthrown by the United States to protect and take land for in many cases the families of Christian missionaries who became some of the wealthiest Hawaiins. US overthrew a legitimate government . I think resentment is valid. I know it is proably outdated but you might want to read James Michner's Hawaii.
What a joy and blessing it was when the US illegally 'annexed' the islands in 1893. Grover Cleveland was so incensed about the action that he disavowed it and would have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
The native islanders continue to be insulted to this day. Nothing changes. Ever.
2
Oh, please. The same muddle-headed reasoning why Hawaii is not energy independent. 20% of Big Island's energy comes from a single geothermal plant. There's enough potential to not only supply 100% of current needs, but supply green industry and jobs now sorely lacking. More geothermal energy has been blocked by politicians not wanting to antagonize a small percent of the population (native and not) who don't want to offend Pele, goddess of volcanos.
23
This conflict is not about "culture"; it's about religion. And the underlying question here is does religion take precedence over science? Does one search for truth take precedence over another? For hundreds of years - over the protests and wails of many stripes and types of Luddites and ambitious political scoundrels - the West has chosen science. Why? Because science has significantly improved the quality of life in THIS world for most while, to the best of our knowledge, it has degraded the quality of life in the NEXT world not at all. So building the telescope where environmental conditions will most enhance its performance seems a natural continuation of previous practice and policy.
24
@Rick Johnson
Are you sure it isn't about culture too? Much in the same way that the Jewish religion is intertwined with its culture, maybe native Hawaiians have a similar duality? I don't know, I have only been to Hawaii once and know very little of the history or culture of the native Hawaiians before they were colonized by the U.S. Maybe another poster can enlighten more on the subject, but I know in my family we have these kinds of discussions about the duality of Judaism as a culture and a religion all the time. But regardless, I can think of no better way to honor the Polynesian ancestors, masters of the stars, than by studying them from this mountain. It's not like they are putting up a Hilton or something. I hope something can be worked out through mutual understanding.
4
So lets get this straight. We should not try to understand better the mysteries of the universe to preserve some ancient superstitions? What is the relevance of Polynesian ancient navigation methods to this whole discussion?
40
I commend Dr. Hurth for his previous Op-Ed, “The Lost Art of Finding Our Way”, which means so much to me that I keep a copy on my computer desktop. So I find it ironic that he now adopts a simplistic view of Polynesian navigation, and one so out of touch with what he has already written.
Polynesian navigators use stars to find directions, but they also use numerous other clues. My (incomplete) understanding is that Polynesian navigators actually use the sort of situational awareness Dr. Hurth described in “Finding Our Way” — based on every sensory modality available, but refined by a lifetime of practice, and expanded to provide a sense of place and orientation with respect to the curved surface of the rotating Earth.
Collapsing this vast framework of observation, lore, and intuition to a simple astronomical algorithm (“sail north until the Pleiades passes directly overhead ... — then turn west”) is a reductionist’s perspective. If nothing else, it’s not unusual for clouds to hide both sun and stars for days on end. The Polynesians were discerning visual astronomers, but astronomy was only part of a much larger body of knowledge they used to navigate the Pacific.
7
@joshbarnes: correction — Dr Huth’s previous NYT Op-Ed, published July 20, 2013, is titled “Losing Our Way in the World”. It outlines the rich, multifaceted modes of perception that Polynesians and other people used to travel open oceans a thousand years ago. Again, the contrast with the reductionist perspective of his present piece is unmistakable.
There are alternate sites on earth, outside the US. One is in Chile, so that would be a different part of teh sky, but there are excellent sites in Chile. So if the protests continue, why not Chile? The only problem is that the European Southern Observatory is building a 39 meter telescope in north Chile. The islands off the west coast of Spain would be another alternative. This is not as good as Mauna Kea, but it is an alternative.
4
Chile is in the southern hemisphere. Hawaii is in the northern hemisphere.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
The ceaseless search for knowledge is a fundamental characteristic of humanity. The triumphs of Native Hawaiian navigators and modern day astronomers are part of the same grand story. While every effort should be made to honor the accomplishments of the past, and the enduring cultural traditions of Hawaiians, to impede further scientific advancement would violate humanity's highest purpose: to learn more about this marvelous universe that we all inhabit together. I can think of no more sacred endeavor.
31
The issue is far more complicated than "our science vs. their science". It is partly rooted in lingering anger at the US sponsored coup and annexation of the sovereign Kingdom of Hawaii, an act which was injurious not only to native Hawaiians but also to many non-native citizens of the Kingdom. And the anger about Mauna Kea is not just limited to the native Hawaiian community; many citizens of Hawaii, of whatever origin, have strong feelings on the issue. But just to make things more complicated, there is a less vocal part of the native Hawaiian community who are in favor of the telescope because it offers high tech jobs in a state that is more oriented around the service industries than high tech, and the state itself is looking for ways to diversify away from the dependence on tourism.
In my view it should probably be voted on, after all, we do live in a democracy. However it is not clear at all who should do the voting - all citizens of the state, or only native Hawaiians. Polling seems to indicate most citizens of Hawaii are in favor of the telescope. It is unclear where it would end up if it were decided only within the native Hawaiian community.
15
I have no problem with this. Build it.
17
Had Polynesians ignored the stars they never would have migrated to Hawaii in the first place. The opponents are far more political than cultural and include any number of people, one of whom you name specifically, who seem more interested in building their own political power on the backs of this nonsense than in really dealing with injustice towards Hawaiians. Some who are closely aligned with this have themselves committed massive fraud against the Hawaiian people, "their" people, by playing on their willingness to buy into the sovereignty arguments.
No, this is not in any way simply a cultural protest, it is way more than that and far too many people, like you, are buying into their nonsense.
11
When its Christians opposing stem cell research we point at them as backwards savages and argue that their religious beliefs shouldn't preclude the advancement of scientific inquiry, but here we have people doing the exact same thing and being valorized as defenders of their culture, even though it comes at the cost of our understanding of the universe and our ability to compete as a scientific powerhouse.
People's religious beliefs shouldn't be the deciding factor on how we learn about the world and universe around us. It shouldn't matter where they're from or what they believe in. The argument that the previous installations have caused environmental damage is a fair one and worth consideration, but the idea that just because some people consider the mountain magic, we should hobble ourselves intellectually is just as ridiculous here as it is in keeping evolution out of classrooms for fear that it will anger god.
31
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was behind these protests somehow. They've been vying with us for scientific supremacy for nearly a century at this point.
4
"the disconnect between Western science and... " There is no 'Western science'. Science is a process increasingly being employed with great success in the East. And the protests on Mauna Kea are also a process, in which businesses and municipalities request to make a change, the change goes through the proper licensing channels and hearings are held. Sometimes lawsuits are filed, heard, and judged. And then, when every legal and monetary hurdle has been cleared and construction equipment is literally on the road to build the long-planned construction, protesters show up, shut down the road, and say, basically, that everything that went on before that moment was illegitimate, because the State itself is illegitimate, as are most of its residents, because they aren't Hawaiian. This has happened so often, and with so many improvements, that businesses are getting skittish about locating in Hawaii: there seem to be two parallel processes for achieving approval, the official one, and the unofficial one, and it's the second process that can shut you down after a decade of planning. It's a process that refuses even to announce itself until you are quite literally sending heavy equipment to build your item. If we let this second process control everything in Hawaii, then businesses will leave. They aren't designed to function with that level of uncertainty.
6
As John Burnett said, it's a pity that Professor Huth didn't take the time to check out his sources, and -- to those of us who were born and raised here and do understand the issues -- question what he was being told.
Here's an example: the sewage spills. Yes, a very small amount of sewage was once spilled. Now let's consider how that might have impacted the water supply -- something that's falsely alleged by the protestors, and has been shown to be false by, you know, hydrologists (those folks with expertise in the matter). And yet it keeps being repeated -- Huth is only the most recent.
"Native Hawaiian cultural Practitioners" have never, in any way, been prohibited from using the mountain -- another falsehood. In fact, those of us who have known the mountain for many years know that access to the summit area was extremely difficult before the road for the first observatory was put in (mid-sixties). Easy access to the summit is a gift from the observatories -- who even pay for the road maintenance. The protestors conveniently ignore this.
I could go on and on. I'll mention that the destruction of Pisciotta's lele is, let's say, not exactly as reported. And a great many people know this.
Finally, take note that Nainoa Thompson has not staked out a TMT position, but the equally-revered navigator Kalepa Babayan has -- and he supports it.
Honestly, I'd have expected better from a trained scientist, even one without social science training .
25
The trouble is, when I read this all I hear is a particle physicist, ie someone who depends on an expensive, environmentally disruptive, and religiously controversial instrument that’s already been built and operating, deciding that the astronomers can do without theirs. Well, “So what? I’ve got MINE.” is not a surprising trait to find in an academic, but for that very reason there’s no reason to give much weight to his opinion.
8
"... indigenous science and Western science ..."
Hawaii is West of North America and Europe, so Hawaiians are more "Western" than anyone supporting the telescope. Huth exposes his own cultural imperialism in that one phrase.
"To them [Native Hawaiians], the mountain is sacred."
Yet Huth insists on injecting "indigenous science" into the discussion. The objections to the telescope are religious, not scientific.
8
Speaking as a total non expert, but shouldn't all new telescopes be launched in space? Why deal with the earth's atmosphere at all? To answer my own question, I guess it comes down to money.
1
"Why deal with the earth's atmosphere at all?"
Modern research telescopes use adaptive optics to compensate for atmospheric turbulence, so a terrestrial telescope is much more cost-effective than a space telescope.
Further, a 30 meter telescope would probably have to be assembled in space.
Compare with the Hubble telescope's 2.4 meter mirror and the forthcoming James Webb Space Telescope, which will have a 6.5 meter mirror.
The real advantage of a space telescope is that there are no clouds in space, so it can be operated continuously. Further, radiation can be detected over a wider range of wavelengths, because there is atmospheric absorption.
See the Wikipedia articles, "Thirty Meter Telescope", "Hubble Space Telescope", "James Webb Space Telescope", and "Space telescope".
5
"... because there is NO atmospheric absorption."
Don't penalize science. Tax the extremely rich!
4
I find the majority of these comments to be condescending and dismissive of Hawaiians. Just as we have dismissed our genocide of native Americans and our continuing refusal to acknowledge and to correct the deep and persistent racism that poisons this country. We stole the Hawaiian Islands and it’s not ancient history. We suppressed the local culture and almost succeeded in destroying it. One more observatory is not going to save the planet from global warming. Science has more important things to do right now. And no, we are not going to escape to the stars from an uninhabitable earth. There isn’t time.
9
Too many people are willing to write off culture.
Native Hawiian culture must be respected. The US has always respected individual state's rights, and it won't stop because of this confrontation.
We didn't have much right to bring Hawaii into the US. We did it because we could, and because it provided a good Pacific base for US Naval forces. No other reason.
But we like each other! I love the Hawiians. In fact one of my best friends of all time was Japanese Hawaiian. I still consider him one of my best friends of all time.
I was welcomed by them into their homes. I was treated as well as anyone could be. So I won't let you tromple over their rights.
I think it is pretty clear the telescope will be built. How do we compensate the Hawiian culture?
It needs to be done. Payments, shrines, input, it has to be done. Give them input and output.
We're not going to stop building here. You're a US territory, and we can pretty much do as we want on this mountain.
I think we need to be respectful. Respect us back. If you don't, native Hawiians, you're already overruled.
The answer is to agree to build things the natives never would have had the resources to build. And to fullell inforation through them.
3
The author seems to be giving the same short shrift attitude to the indigenous of the Canary Islands he claims the scientific community is giving the Hawaiians.
Poor old Donald has worked to protect his culture and sacred golf course views in Scotland and Ireland from having to see wind turbines in the far distance off the coast. One man's sacred culture is another person's expense.
8
Well this is a sacred mission to peer deeper into the sacred universe so it should be built on a sacred mountain.
7
I hear a lot of people saying that TMT would benefit science, and that science is good for everybody -- so why are Hawaiians stubbornly resisting? Here's an attempt at a counter example, which I hope will make the Hawaiian position clearer -- it would benefit science for you to let me cut your head open and stick electrodes into your brain. Would you resist? Of course I wouldn't do that to you, out of respect, and because there are laws to protect you from that kind of assault. It seems that Hawaiians don't have the same kind of legal protections, to guard them from the US overthrowing their country, enforcing foreign rule on them and enjoying their resources -- Hawaiians clearly don't have laws to protect them from the development of some massive buildings in a place that they object to developing. Claiming that the Hawaiians don't know what is good for them is not respectful, and not very understanding of recent history or of the current social reality for Hawaiian people, as marginalised people in their own homeland. It might appear to be a little thing asking to develop the top of a mountain, but it would be a little thing on top of a generations-deep pile of material grievances. If people really want to build TMT, why don't they try to engage with the Hawaiian community and make material demonstrations that show respect. At least we can all try to understand the Hawaiian perspective. I don't think framing this as Western Science vs Polynesian Tradition really helps.
8
Science is the greatest achievement of humanity, and no price is too high to advance our knowledge and understanding of the Universe. This knowledge belongs to all of us. It is not “Western” or “colonialist”. To put superstition ahead of science is a crime against humanity. I don’t for a moment believe that native Hawaiians don’t understand this. A small group of agitators do not speak for all native peoples, let alone for all of human beings everywhere.
10
Bravo to physicist John Huth for writing a piece that combines keen respect for scientific reason with a deep sensory intelligence and earthly wisdom! Isn't this the very combination (joining head with heart, joining technology with a full-bodied and creaturely savvy) that we now most need if we're to have any chance of transforming this civilization rapidly wrecking the biosphere that sustains us, into a culture that enlivens the wild-flourishing diversity of the animate earth?
6
Let's not let a few hundred people hold back all of humanity. Think of how important Hubble telescope has been to us. The TMT can see ten times better.
If the protestors could see that well, they wouldn't stand in the way of something that benefits themselves, their fellow islanders and scientific progress.
6
Next to where I live there is a cemetery. I look at it sometimes and lament that it is there. If I were running the world, I would take out all the gravestones, and turn it into a nice park. It could enrich people’s lives in an urban area that needs more open space outdoors.
But obviously it is « sacred ».
3
Some years ago, a cable car for tourists was proposed for Mt. Sinai.
The Hawaiian people settled their islands and built a civilization to admire in a place with relatively few resources, but with abundant food.
Since 1778 they have been crowded out of their lands by adventurers, missionaries, entrepreneurs, and foreigners.
Two of their islands are owned by one billionaire (Lanai) and one enterprise (Niihau). They were sidelined by a global consortium in the ten year run up to the TMT. Thirteen telescopes were previously built on Mauna Kea as a result of the interest of astrophysicists in California and elsewhere
The Hawaiians must be included in any and all plans for the mountain. In turn, they should use their current leverage to
acquire more rights to their lands in the islands and more power over what happens to them.
Both sides need to give a lot to obtain a future for both parties and their worthy goals. However, the Hawaiians should decide among their population whether or not an astronomy center should be developed on the highest mountain in the world (from base to summit), which also
happens to be the center of their world.
Too much has been taken; much needs to be given back.
8
This editorial paints all Native Hawaiians with a broad brush. The impression readers may get is that the Native Hawaiians are all anti-science mountain worshippers, unanimous in their opposition to progress.
This is not true at all. Most native Hawaiians today are Christian. A substantial portion of native Hawaiians (30-70%, according to different polls in different years) support TMT. The author mentions the modern Hawaiian navigators, but neglects to mention Chad Baybayan, a prominent navigator and TMT advocate. The author also fails to mention that Imua TMT, the largest pro-TMT advocacy group in Hawaii, was founded by two native Hawaiians; or that the most successful pro-TMT petition was authored by a native Hawaiian high school student.
By giving such a nakedly one-sided view of the issue, the author does a disservice not only to astronomy, but to Hawaii and to native Hawaiians, whose views are oversimplified to the point of caricature.
25
And Christians aren’t anti-science? Ever?
Gimme a break.
1
They aren't proposing to build a Walmart. It's hard to imagine something with more universal spiritual significance than a great telescope, binding our tiny world to the heavens beyond. As an admitted outsider to Hawai'ian culture, I have to wonder, wouldn't this consecrate the sacred site far more than leaving it fallow?
10
The whole point of scientific inquiry is the search for truth and freeing us from the constraints of superstition. Let’s not go backwards or we may find ourselves closing down NIH and opening up a department of spiritual healing.
13
If the complaints are really about honoring Polynesian science, and not religious mumbo-jumbo (animism, for pete's sake!), couldn't the issue be settled by giving the natives some time on the instrument for observations? What better way to celebrate Polynesian science than giving them a way to participate, and access to a world-class instrument to boot?
11
@Huma Nboi , I think there are Hawaiian astronomers involved in the project.
4
@Huma Nboi There is already a program through which local Hawaiian students can use the world-class astronomy facilities on the mountain: http://cfht.hawaii.edu/en/news/MaunakeaScholars/
I just don't see the problem, the mountain isn't going anywhere. I'm all for recognizing and protecting sacred monuments, but the advantages of increasing mankind's vision of the universe should at least garner equal respect, especially when its inclusion amounts to a literal molehill on a mountain.
10
I was born and raised in Hawaii, and first climbed Mauna Kea in 1962 at the age of 8, and climbed it every year for many years. There was just a single observatory then, I believe, and no evidence of any opposition to all of the various activities that the mountain was subjected to, including its use by the military for training. It’s time for people to decide whether they are going to join the 21st century, or lose themselves in some mythical version of sovereignty. I’m fully aware of the history of what was done to indigenous people all over the US and the pacific islands (and everywhere else in the World), but how does adhering to some ancient and largely reconstructed religion do anything to help erase that history and bring about positive change?
19
@VKG
"largely reconstructed" . . . Thank you VKG. The silliness into which Prof Huth is buying is extremely tiresome.
"To them [Native Hawaiians], the mountain is sacred."
Yet Huth insists on injecting "indigenous science" into the discussion. The objections to the telescope are religious, not scientific.
And setting up two very different cultures in opposition is despicable, as Huth does when he makes this dubious comparison:
"Polynesian people had been navigating this way for centuries, well before Magellan circumnavigated the globe in the 1500s with the aid of a compass."
4
That mountain is owned by the state of Hawaii for the use and benefit of the people of Hawaii. It has normal political processes for building something or forbidding the building of something. There is no special secret native Hawaiian exception to the ordinary process of public hearings, legislating, and political horse trading. Rolling out some stuff about it being sacred doesn't change that fact.
25
Yep. When I see that two thousand people got arrested, I’ll take this seriously.
If, as the Hawaiian historian speculates, Mauna Kea was once a traditional astronomical observation platform, I can't think of a more appropriate place to put this telescope. And I can't think of a more "sacred" purpose than expanding our knowledge of the universe. There must be better ways to honor Hawaiian history and traditions than to prevent its construction.
31
I am always impressed with the knowledge, skill, and fortitude of our forbearers. They were so much in touch, hands on, with the natural world. They were not flat earthers, either. We have to respect the navigators, the explorers, the builders, the thinkers who lived long before us, and set the table.
I would guess that if those same individuals were around today, they would still be thinking and exploring, and they would be respectful of where they came from as well. Of course, due to all the work people have already done, the landscape has changed radically, and they would find their traditional methods perhaps dated.
As we proceed forward, which is the only direction available to us, we have to keep alive a rich memory of what came before - it is a treasure trove. But if the ancestral Hawaiians knew what we know about who and what we are, our actual kinship with the stars, they would be looking at them as hard as we are.
5
The new telescope honors the Polynesian astronomical achievements by continuing their work.
Using an alternate site with known serious problems is an absurd proposal.
16
This telescope is not for invading white men, it's for all humanity. Hawaiian, or not, it will likely bring wonderous knowledge to anyone interested enough to pay attention. This is something that all Hawaiians should be very proud of.
27
"...locate the Thirty Meter Telescope elsewhere."
How about Los Angeles? Nah, indigenous people lived there before the Spaniards moved in. Beijing? There ya go! Nothing to it.
3
Kick in and allow to happen!
Seems to me exploring the heavens with the best tools available is a sacred pursuit, shared in common with ancient peoples for the same purposes as now. Don't foul the land in the process with western garbage and share the pursuit with your neighbors as much as possible thus living in peace getting closer to the cosmos together.
16
Superstition vs. science - the age old battle.
3
This article implies that all Hawaiins oppose this telescope. That is not even close to being true.
25
The telescope, through many years, has been passed through every legal review and approval required. This has been inclusive of all sides and comprehensive all the way to the Supreme Court. The people protesting in Hawaii must not believe in the rule of law, and neither do those paid to enforce the laws. Groups with this and other concerns will take note that the law and legal process is not relevant in Hawaii and take action to react to other perceived injustice. Why would the native Hawaiian movement not continue to block roads, resorts, new construction, airports and other symbols of non native Hawaiians on island, as they already have begun doing? A solution to this particular situation could be crafted, but when the rule of law is being disregarded, legal solutions to the larger Hawaiian cultural issues would be only optional to those protesting. This lack of commitment to rule of law is core to why there are no negotiations. It appears that “your law does not apply to me.” Beautiful people, beautiful place in need of beautiful solution.
8
There are many forms of spirituality, and all should be respected. Mine says that as an intelligent species, it is our sacred responsibility to explore, and attempt to understand, the universe in which we live. I think I am far from alone in this belief. For the moment, the peak of Mauna Kea is the best place to do this. The other 99.9% of the mountain is available to meet the spiritual needs of the native Hawaiians. Perhaps someday there will be sufficient telescopes in space and on the Moon that earthbound astronomy will no longer be needed. For now, let's use that 0.1% in the way for which it is best suited.
18
This telescope will be dedicated to revealing in detail our place in the universe. In its own way this is a sacred quest. What is more sacred than the mystery that we are and that exploration both internal and external? Perhaps tradition and ancient beliefs justify these protests, but looking forward and outward to the universe itself has always been part of who we are. We can all sit and be silent in the presence of our vast universe.
17
A more immediate injustice is building another Safeway. And another Walmart. And another McDonalds. A more immediate injustice is leveling the land for more parking and subdivisions. A more immediate injustice is cutting off shore access for birds, animals, and locals. The telescope is worthwhile for all humankind -- the rest is worthwhile only to a few business interests convinced the Hawai'i should be remade in the image of everywhere and anywhere else..
17
I was on the faculty at the University of Hawaii in the latter part of the 1970s. Observing conditions on Mauna Kea permitted me to be the must productive researcher on the outer planets in the field of planetary science. I recall attending a ceremony in which a native Hawaiian kahuna, actually a Christian minister, blessed a new telescope. There is a tradition in American religious history of religious groups modifying beliefs and practices to accommodate advances in science. Hawaiians could make modifications in this case.
30
if Pele is so powerful, and the Hawaiian prayers to her real, she will take care of the telescopes. Let the show begin. We'll see it on CNN.
6
@blkbry In fact Pele has moved Her seat south, which is why Mauna Kea is no longer active. She is sad that Her followers have not, well, *followed* her. They should move on and let TMT proceed.
8
@Richard Schumacher Maunakea is dormant, not extinct.
2
The better option is to move forward with TMT on the big island and spend - a lot - money on Hawaii Cultural Education at all ages of academics and Adult Cultural experiences like article mentioned 'long canoe". Just include, don't exclude.
6
@ndv
The TMT could be dedicated to ancient Polynesians who navigated the Pacific largely by the stars.
A museum with an observatory could be built nearby to illustrate how Polynesians navigated by the reading the waves and the night skies, and to offer lessons to anyone who was interested in learning astronomy.
1
@ann In fact, this is precisely the plan put forth by the group PUEO (Perpetuating Unique Educational Opportunities).
PUEO would like it built at Hale Pohaku (about 9,300') near the road to the summit.
The protestors oppose PUEO because PUEO supports TMT.
" disconnect between Western science and the remarkable achievements of Polynesian astronomy"
"Western scientific supremacy"
There is no such thing as "Western science", there is only science. And I've never understood how having telescopes on Mauna Kea diminishes "Polynesian astronomy", as you put it. We're all on the same side! We all want to observe and understand nature.
How can the increase of our knowledge of nature and the universe be considered bad?
24
Why don't the TMT proponents propose to simply upgrade an existing telescope? Seems reasonable to allow provided the current footprint on Mauna Kea doesn't increase. Better yet agree to shrink the existing footprint by removing obsolete telescopes, restore their sites, haul off all of the sewage, and build a center for indigenous navigation.
1
@David Nix The TMT's footprint is much larger than that of the Kecks, which are the largest observatories on the summit right now. The Keck mirrors are 10 meters -- a 30 meter mirrow requires a larger housing.
There are agreements in place for removing obsolete telescopes; there have to be EISs for the removal. But in practice, it's a done deal.
And the sewage is always hauled off -- always has been. It's precisely the same as pumping any septic tank. Nothing unusual.
6
Ahh, no. Just no. You want astronomers to use the second best site? We all benefit from scientific advancement. All of us. What great discoveries will be missed at the second best site? Indigenous people's lives are saved by antibiotics and medical advances just like folks who are non indigenous. Many other telescopes are already built on that site in Hawaii. There is a whole community of astronomers and their infrastructure already there. We can no more give in to this than we can give into the insanity of Republican anti science views on global warming, women's health, and children's health. This Hawaiian site is the best in our world. It should be used.
40
So, if a Hawaiian invented a new improved "lele" 200 years ago, the original "lele" could not be replaced because of cultural reasons? Should sailors still navigate the oceans with a compass and sextant to preserve their culture?
I'd think in modern times progress would be allowed to coexist with cultural preservation without interfering with each other. Adding a telescope to a mountain sacred to astronomers and Hawaiians should not mean interfering with the "lele" that is there for historical-cultural reasons but serves the same purpose as a sextant in a museum. You can still use a sextant or Arcturus to sail back to the big island if you want to!
"neglect of Native Hawaiian culture in favor of Western scientific supremacy" Is Western scientific pursuit so horrible and in anyway harming the Hawaiian culture, anymore than the cellphone, TV, GPS and Facebook? Their mountain is still there, even with one more telescope. They can still admire it, pray to it, enjoy their cultural practices with it or whatever it is they do with the mountain. There's no reason why their "lele" can't coexist with a new telescope.
However, scientists should know better and do a better job at environmental preservation.
Why relocate the telescope? Perhaps the Polynesian descendants should use the stars to relocate themselves instead. Use a sextant or GPS with highly precise precession factored in, or will either diminish their culture?
Author seems to "neglect" indigenous claims to La Palma.
6
A couple thoughts - the Canary Islands are a significant step down in seeing quality for astronomy and should not be pursued. The compromise reached at Mauna Kea was to remove a telescope for every new one built on the mountain. I am in favor of this and also securing sacred areas on the mountain from any future building, and for exclusive access to Hawaiians as they see fit. And the misuse of the area and ignorance of Hawaiian culture in the past must be acknowledged. But we should not give up the important resource that the mountain and its telescopes provide. Those are sacred to all of humanity.
15
I would think it great to have a world class astronomical facility in my region. Its not like mining, or having a military training facility nearby. And if there was geothermal energy extraction going on, I could see that being objectionable. But in this case, it is a relatively clean form of activity being pursued in the name of science.
The Japanese have had a few sacred mountains but there was a manned weather station on Fuji for a good number of years.
Interesting to hear about Polynesian navigation, because travel, exploration and colonization at that time by the Polynesians was an incredible achievement.
10
@Michael Dunne Actually, there's a large Army training area (the Pohakuloa Training Area) only a few miles from the protest site.
The training area includes a great many archaeological sites.
Are any protestors protesting it?
No.
4
@DM Yes. Aware of that training area- and could see that being the target for protests. Interesting to hear that it has not been the case.
4
@Michael Dunne Pohakuloa is being protested
I usually come down on the side of scientific advancement in these kinds of arguments. In this case, the purpose and benefits of the TMT have been clear and have been discussed at great length. If the local community still can't accommodate it then the long term effectiveness of the facility is threatened. When you spend $1.4 billion you want to make sure it's good for the long term. There is real value in getting along with your neighbours.
If the Canary Islands work, perhaps it's better there. It will provide some stimulus for their economy, draw tourists, and give it some high-tech cred. Ad astra.
6
I am curious about the point of view as to why the search for new knowledge is sacrilegious to the site. Of course, the science is new to traditional Hawaiian culture, but does that mean it is demeaning to the culture? Or is it the buildings on the site? Of course, I have no idea, but total rejection of modern science seems short sighted. There seems to be no problem with studying the volcano system or aquaculture.
24
Dr. Huth: What would be your reaction if a contingent of Wampanoag showed up at your office or lab and declared that the building sits on sacred ground and must be turned over to their uses? The Wampanoag were surely as abused as the Native Hawaiians were. You're the descendant of the people who dispossessed them. Following the logic presented in your article, you should immediately comply with such a request!
The history of the human race is the history of tribes or nations or empires conquering, assimilating and exterminating other groups. Yes, we now see these actions as war crimes. That doesn't seem to have stopped them from happening. Hawaii was a victim of imperial expansion, but that was how things were done in those days.
The Hawaiians should be accommodated in some way on Mauna Kea, but not to the extent of monopolizing one of the best telescope locations on Earth. Science is sacred too.
If you want to see something to protest, you should check out the monstrous Disneyfied resorts that squat on the nearby South Kohala coast. Compared to those things, a telescope is a thing of beauty and grace.
49
@John Tully
You seem to have it backwards. He said he doesn't support the telescope being built there, that the damage to indigenous culture can't be justified.
"But Native Hawaiians have long voiced concerns over the construction of telescopes on Mauna Kea. To them, the mountain is sacred."...One would have thought that a very special telescope, whose purpose was to reach to the end of the universe, would have been viewed as a fitting monument to a sacred mountain. I think there must be something else going on here.
29
This is a cultural issue for Hawaii to decide - I do not think others should weigh in on the cultural issues. But I would take issue with many scientific points made in this article. There is no divide between ancient and modern astronomy - knowledge has been passed down over millenia from all ancient cultures and civilizations, including the Middle East, Greece, China, & Asia, indeed everywhere. Oral histories were lost at times causing some re-discoveries. Precession of the equinoxes discussed here was known to ancient civilizations at least 190 BC and likely centuries before in many cultures. This type of ancient knowledge was built upon by astronomers in all the intervening centuries. The author studies ancient navigation not observational astronomy. His pronouncement on the suitability of the Canary Islands site is not correct.
8
I've followed this issue and from my perspective the TMT has bent over backwards to take into account the environmental impact and the cultural concerns related to building the observatory. The problem seems to be this issue is wrapped up with the politics of the sovereignty movement that has no interest in a middle way to allow the telescope to be built. Furthermore, in 2033 the master lease for the land on which the observatories stand on is up and will likely be the next target. So Astronomy could very well be greatly diminished in Hawaii. The Hawaiian Supreme court ruling on the TMT is an informative read on the history of this issue.
Furthermore, when I hear people talk about indigenous science or knowledge it reminds me of the noble savage trope. Certainly indigenous people got some things right about nature--like many other ancient civilizations--but they also got things wrong too. There's a certain respect given to indigenous knowledge that would not be given to other beliefs that blend spiritualism with science and I find it strange when I see scientists speak about the importance of indigenous knowledge.
27
I am sorry and with all due respect, Prof. Huth, but science should never bow before superstition. Out of all injustices, which the Native Hawaiians suffered, with occupation of their lands and exploitation of their labor for profit, building another telescope should be the last of our worries. In terms of rectifying those injustices, the meaningless gestures around the telescope should also have the lowest priority for both the Hawaiians and their occupiers. These 'sacred' dances around the telescope only serve one purpose - to placate people and to distract them from demanding more meaningful steps towards justice and atonement. Scientists should be the last to get into that game. They should realise better than anyone that they are just being used. Build the telescope and respect the Hawaiians and their culture. There will be no contradiction here, if the native rights were properly restored and respected and the native population did not feel that the 'sacred mountain' is the only thing they have left.
29
I was really upset by this article, but I find that the majority of
comments give articulate and cogent thoughts on the merits
for the construction of this telescope. Improved understanding
of the cosmos will be both inspiring and will provide some guidance for our long-term survival as a species. This article
strikes me as part of the emerging anti-science and anti-intellectual movement within the world community which appears often based on religious themes from the past. It's striking in this discussion that a majority of native Hawaiians favor construction of this telescope. These sites in Hawaii are optimal for the proposed scientific mission for construction of this telescope. Failure to complete the construction of this telescope will be a step toward anti-science in our aspirations as a society.
36
la palma not anywhere near as good re turbulent air given its location. wouldn't the ancestral Hawaiian astronomers want astronomical progress that the TMT brings? [think so] or is it as the local Hawaiian historian acknowledges in the article, all speculation?
7
I am not Native Hawaiian but as a lifelong resident, I'd like to think my heart and soul is Hawaiian. In reading many of the comments here, there seems to be very little support for the native people.
The article is thorough in describing some of the history and conflict with the telescope, but it doesn't explain the long plight of the Native Hawaiian people as a whole. While this conflict is about a telescope, it is actually about so much more. Here are some facts:
1. After Captain Cook's arrival, it is estimated that hundreds of thousands of Native Hawaiians died from eventual exposure to diseases brought to the islands from the west
2. With the arrival of the missionaries, the Hawaiian religion and many things associated with Hawaiian culture was forbidden, removed, or destroyed
3. In 1893, the Hawaiian Kingdom was overthrown by a group of western foreigners, the queen imprisoned in her own palace. Imagine someone walking into your home, taking it from you, locking you up in your closet, and leaving you only a shirt and pants from your own dresser to make them and you feel better about it
4. The "Hawaiian Homelands" program, which was to help provide some land to compensate the Native Hawaiians has been corruptly run for decades, with most aging and dying in poverty or homeless, still waiting for a place to live
That's just the tip of the iceberg. It's about indigenous people uniting, saying "enough is enough" and standing up to fight continued injustices
11
@Aloha Kanaka
So then the issue really isnt about the telescope ..its about past historical injustices..?
5
There are 13 telescopes what is the difference about 1 more.
I feel that the term scared is just a ploy being used. It's not like its a burial ground up there. Just something for people to get worked up about.
8
@KR There are burials up there -- no doubt about that. However, there are none where any of the observatories were constructed, and there are none at the TMT site.
Professional archaeologists have verified this over and over.
2
Excellent article, although traditional astronomy and navigation did not "fade from memory' but was lost in the genocide of invasion. As a long-time resident of Maui, Hawai`i I have been learning, listening, and coming to understand a small bit of what is difficult, but not impossible, to understand or experience about really being a part of the natural world with a western mind-set. What "sacred" means in a western sense is not exactly what it means here. This is not "religion", this is a way of collaborating with nature. We desperately need this knowledge. Let's learn from these remarkable survivors.
8
I doubt TMT will be built on Mauna Kea. Half of my friends, including some of the 38 kupuna who were arrested initially, have been up there defending (they do not call themselves protestors) the mauna for extended periods since this summer. There is a sprawling tent city. They aren't going anywhere. They persist in rain and sub-freezing temperatures. The spokespersons for the defenders have indicated that they aren't interested in compromise, such as allowing TMT on condition of removal of other decommissioned facilities. The authorities appear to not have the stomach for what it would take to remove the defenders and reopen the road, and if they tried I can imagine there would be multiples of the number of people currently occupying the spot rushing to reinforce them. They may be a minority of residents and just a plurality of Hawaiians but they are sufficient in number to conduct a winning campaign of civil disobedience. All you have to do is drive the highway and see the camp to realize this.
The logic (I see much of it in these comments, reflecting assumed scientific, technology and economic benefits) advanced to justify the project is unavailing on the ground here, and in ways irrelevant. There is an aspect of this that transcends the sanctity of the mauna. Not a few people here are upset about the loss of sovereignty and having another telescope rammed down their throats doesn't assuage their feelings, that's for sure.
5
@Art So, I guess your comment makes it fairly obvious that the opposition to the TMT has very little to do with religion. If locals are upset about loss of sovereignty then they should start an independence movement and leave the TMT project alone.
18
@Steve I always got the impression that the opposition is just against /something/. Could have been a Walmart, but that can be used to go shopping. So let's oppose some random telescope where the use is not so immediately obvious. Everything else is made up as needed.
I’m sure that Mauna Kea was sacred to ancient Hawaiians. In fact, I’m sure that there are a lot of parking lots, apartment buildings, farms, factories, cemeteries, colleges, soccer fields, government buildings, etc., that are built on land that was sacred to someone at some point in time. Every time a sewer is repaired in Rome or Athens, they discover ruins that were significant. Almost all of Jerusalem is built on land that was sacred to someone. In medieval Europe, it was common to build churches on the ruins of pre- Christian places of worship. A great telescope on the mountain is not a desecration, it’s a celebration of a unique place in the world, just as it was for the Hawaiians.
86
@stevevelo Who decides to ignore the ruins when a sewer is repaired in Rome or Athens? Who decides if its ok to build churches on pre-Christian temples? These are serious questions. Native Hawaiians are sick and tired of having decisions about their life and culture made for them by others. As one sign at the protests said: "Its not about science - its about colonialism."
5
L@Incognito - Gee, colonialism. How horrible. I’m old enough to remember when Hawai’i became a state. There were wild celebrations all over the islands. No one mentioned colonialism. I guess they just weren’t woke. On a more serious note, people have been moving and (gasp) culturally appropriating things for hundreds of thousands of years: Homo sapiens moved out of Africa and culturally appropriated Neanderthals; steppe peoples invaded Western Europe and appropriated their cultures; Rome invaded Northern Europe and introduced their language; Ancient Polynesians occupied those islands in the Pacific and took them over; etc. etc. etc.
5
It is good to shed light on the mismanagement of Mauna Kea but we need to zoom out. When the singular issue of Mauna Kea is discussed it misses the entire movement that is happening with Native Hawaiians. The movement has been happening for a long time but Mauna Kea is a tipping point. Hawaii is a stolen land, colonized and exploited by Americans. Hawaiians have been trampled in this process and Mauna Kea, the TMT, has become the last straw. A tide of protests against development and mismanagement of land has sprung up since the unifying rallies protecting Mauna Kea have begun. That is the real story.
8
@SP
I can't disagree. But in new endeavors, doesn't that make compromise extremely important?
The US has trampled other cultures for its entire existence. We don't rule the world as our founders thought we would.
But money almost always wins. However in this case, shouldn't we team up and desire science to win? Science is usually the one thing that almost every nation, every culture, every religeion, every tribe agrees is helpful.
If the Hawiian's position is to ignore science, well, it's indefensible. But to pursue science and anthropology at the same time? That is a winning set of ideas!
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@SP If I understand you correctly, there is a lot of truth in your comment. The issue is not the TMT per se, but the cumulation of devaluation of the Hawaiian people. That being said, we all live in the 21st century, and I don't see a practical pathway to right the wrongs. We have to use the tools available to us to survive, to hope for a better life. Eliminating high paying jobs is not going to restore dignity to Na Kanaka.
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@John Patt Valuing money over all else is destroying Hawaii (and the world). We have a horrible homeless problem, our education system is struggling, many Native Hawaiians can't even afford to live here, pollution of our land, water and ocean is ignored. Its time we put values over profits. Isn't that what got us into the climate change problem we're currently in? On one hand scientists demand policy change from our nations all over the world but then turn around and say it's too hard to deliver responsible development and progress in Hawaii? There are many ways to restore the strength of Hawaiians. Just because it is a difficult and inconvenient task does not mean it should be left undone. Most of all, it is not something that should be decided by non-Hawaiians.
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"... Magellan circumnavigated the globe in the 1500s with the aid of a compass."
That's a crude oversimplification. In fact, 15th and 16th century European navigators used more tools and techniques than a compass. In particular, they also used the astrolabe and celestial navigation.
Further, Huth ignores the possibility that many Polynesians were lost at sea while their culture learned to navigate the open ocean.
Huth should have done some research on the history of navigation and on Columbus and Magellan.
See, for example:
"The Sea and Civilization: A Maritime History of the World" by Lincoln Paine.
"The Log of Christopher Columbus" by Christopher Columbus, trans. by Robert H. Fuson.
"Over the Edge of the World: Magellan's Terrifying Circumnavigation of the Globe" by Laurence Bergreen.
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@KPJ To your excellent book list I'd like to add "The Exploration of the Pacific," by J.P. Beaglehole. A classic!
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The native's objections were given due process. The state supreme court ruled against them. Democracy means your voice must be heard; it does not mean you will always get your way. Build the telescope.
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@FastEddie Native Hawaiians support this project but Huth does not cover this fact.
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If there are already 13 telescopes on Mauna Kea, it's not likely that the telescopes per se are the problem. Dr. Huth writes of careless discharge of sewage from the observatories. Other abuses probably also occurred.
Indeed, it's possible the problem goes back to the U.S. deposing Queen Lili'uokalani in 1893 -- an event that reminds many of the treatment of Native Americans. This may make it impossible to amicably resolve the dispute.
I'd like to see that thirty-meter telescope operating on Mauna Kea. But as Dr. Huth suggests, the non-monetary cost may be too high.
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@Chris Winter Many people are unaware that Hawaii voted for statehood to get out from the plantation owners, they owned us body and soul. We are the 50th State and everyone's rights, especially those of people like me, native Hawaiians are protected. I hope they clear the road so construction of TMT can begin.
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Honoring ancient traditions and customs does not require abjuration of modern science.
The article is not entirely clear on what the issue is with building an observatory to do today exactly what the article says was being done by the ancient polynesians in the same place--observing our universe and learning its secrets.
Why isn't that homage enough?
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@Lkf
I think the ancient polynesians are honoring a tradition -- perhaps one that seems irrational in modern times, but also one that is out of their control. The evidence will not flow through their culture, but rather a foreign set of scientists. They have no advance knowledge or filter upon it.
I would suggest giving them some credit in knowing this was an important mountain in some press releases. I would suggest giving them first knowledge of discoveries. Just make them feel important.
They knew first that this mountain provided an important knowledge of the stars.
Include them. Don't ignore them.
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@Lkf Sacred chants of the earliest Hawaiians did make references to the universe. It would be good to see back to the earliest stars and galaxies from Maunakea with TMT.
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@Dave Aloha e. Please don't presume to speak for us. We don't need any more of that.
Me ke aloha,
- a Native Hawaiian who wholeheartedly supports the project.
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I think people should consider that the Canary Islands are not US territory but Spanish territory. This can matter in times of tumult.
There must be a way to find a compromise that satisfies everyone. The budget seems large enough to provide money for those concerned about preserving sacred ideas.
Don't dump sewage, and share respectfully. Spend some of the money in ways the concerned population would like. Put whatever things they request on the site.
Spend some money on respecting native Hawiian culture.
What if I said I think the moon is sacred and you can't land anything upon it without my objection? Should it be honored? I think not.
This is a US territory. Be respectful, make compromises, and work it out.
It doesn't compute that a single new telescope is the problem. Perhaps there needs to be new regulations on the space allowed for telescopes, or something else.
This is certainly not a burial grounds, which I believe should be totally respected. It is a symbol. Provide those whom symbolize it importantly something new -- a new way to honor that symbolism.
I think it should be worked out.
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@Dave - no one has ever dumped sewage there; money is already being spent as you are suggesting. There are already plenty of regulations, all of which are now being complied with.
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Not sure why Mauna Kea is so essential to this telescope. There are other mountains in the world, ones that aren't even volcanoes! Also, besides being a sacred spot in Hawaiian culture, it really should be a World Heritage Site as well.
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@David I'm Kanaka Maoli, and I support TMT. We don't live in a theocracy, we make plans based on laws and science.
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@David I am also Kanaka 'Ōiwi, and I support the observatory. As Veronica said, we do not live in a theocracy. Mauna Kea is simply the best for ground based observatories.
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@David There are other mountains but they have much worse viewing conditions (or they are too remote to support a big telescope, or have other issues). Mauna Kea was not chosen based on a dice roll.
If you are unsure why it is so essential then you can read the publications explaining why it is.
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Aren't there ways that Polynesian astronomy can add to and be memorialized by the 30 Meter Telescope?
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I think that can be called an astronomical hybrid of the ancient and the modern. One idea came to me was an illustrative solution as an astronomical art form coordinated structurally with or into the telescope or its surface. But, that will not resolve the violation of the sacredness and honor which has to be given to Polynesian science (I call it their science). I had my own sentiment too. I should not be the only one who felt sorry for Canary Island.
@Steve Bolger Thank you, yes TMT can be part of our legacy. We can now use modern technology instead of just using our hand to measure the stars, Wayfinding. Our earliest chants spoke about the creation and the cosmos & with TMT we will be able to continue that tradition of exploration.
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"With the ability to image atmospheres on exoplanets, perhaps we’ll discover evidence of extraterrestrial life."
Such a discovery being possibly the most important one in the history of humankind, I do think it's worth the cost.
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@Alan Dean Foster: to discover life would be wonderful, but observing the atmosphere of any terrestrial exoplanet which orbits in the habitable zone of its star may be critically important.
Our solar system has THREE terrestrial planets in or near the habitable zone around the Sun. Only one is actually habitable — Earth. Venus is a fair approximation of hell, thanks to a runaway greenhouse effect. Mars is a frigid wasteland, but long ago water flowed on its surface, thanks to heat trapped by greenhouse gasses.
Our understanding of Earth’s climate is informed by direct comparison with our sibling planets, which have radically different atmospheres. Observing another Earth-like planet and characterizing it’s atmosphere and climate would add another data-point to a picture we desperately need to understand to insure our own survival.
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Unfortunately, "indigenous" science and "indigenous" culture are inferior to Western science and culture, that have brought us modern medicine and science, and limited and democratic government. Progress replaces what is inferior with what is better, and "indigenous" Hawaiians have the same opportunities to participate and benefit as anyone else.
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@Jonathan Katz Your faith in western science and culture, its progress and its superiority over all others is exactly that, a "faith." As I ponder the submersion of much of coastal cities within the next two decades, watch as California burns with ever greater intensity each year and brace myself for increasingly hot summers and ever stronger hurricanes, I am thinking those non-western cultures we've done a great job of obliterating knew a few things we did not.
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@Jonathan Katz Did you know that native Hawaiians, who consider themselves indigenous, support TMT on Maunakea?
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@Veronica Ohara not all indigenous Hawaiians do and latest surveys show declining support among them and the population in general.
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Any culture that requires physical landmarks to survive is doomed to extinction, as everything changes. The mountain was not sacred before the Polynesians landed and the telescopes there now will not be there hundreds of years from now. Do not bow to empty totems of any culture. Honestly honor the navigational and observational accomplishments of the ancients by building the telescope and extending this knowledge. That is what is worth calling “Sacred”.
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@C. Neville so the USA is doomed for having Mount Rushmore, Arlington National Cemetery, Statue of Liberty, etc.
Shouldn’t this thing be in a high dry climate like Colorado?
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@Fred Shapiro
Mauna Kea is as high as any mountain in Colorado, and more suited to large-scale construction. The location requirements of such a facility are very specialised and rare which is why they tend to concentrate in particular areas.
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@Fred Shapiro Mauna Kea is ecologically a "alpine stone desert." The total precipitation at the summit averages about 12" per year.
14,000' is high enough, but more to the point, the typical atmospheric conditions are unequalled anywhere.
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it's not clear why there is a 'conflict of cultures'? how do telescopes stop Hawaiians from following their traditions.
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I don't believe any deity finds one piece of Earth any more sacred than any other. That's just my "belief" though.
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Well said.
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@Jim It's not a matter of deities, but of people, and disrespecting their cultural treasures is disrespecting the people.
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@Jonathan
I think there should be some compromise that let's these valuable telescopes be built. My impression is that not much attention was given to local beliefs in the telescope planning. But I also think siting telescopes well outweighs most other considerations, unlike, say, petroleum drilling in national parks (or in Hawai'i).
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I'm not quite understanding how putting a 14th telescope among 13 others qualifies as a potential sacrilege that must be stopped.
The horse is out of the barn.
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Even if the telescope did harm the native environment or if a majority of Hawaiians were not in favor of it, I can think of no better way to honor the mountain than these telescopes. If ancient Hawaiians used it as an observatory, we will simply be carrying on that tradition, peering even farther out into the darkness. And what could be a more fitting honor to the ancient Polynesians, one of the proudest and most capable sea-faring cultures in history, than to add another instrument that will help us push the boundaries of human knowledge even further, and allow us to sail farther into the void that is outer space?
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@Samuel Many native Hawaiians support this project but Huth did not interview us.
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@Veronica Ohara Honestly, this Hilo boy thinks Huth didn't interview anybody, but instead picked up sound bites and quotes from here and there.
I could be wrong, of course. But the material he uses is the same old, same old that we here are used to hearing.
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"The continued neglect of Native Hawaiian culture in favor of Western scientific supremacy is simply not worth it."
There is a simple reason the West has scientific supremacy. It has transcended superstition in favor of the scientific method. Using the umbrage "native . . . culture" to impede science in favor of local customs is nonsensical.
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Thanks for this article
I am unsympathetic to this argument. We need these instruments to understand our place in the universe. How small and vulnerable we all are. This is a case of a group of people absolutely determined to win "respect" at the expense of good sense. Hawaii, the Hawaiian people, and everyone in the U.S. wins if this telescope gets built on Mauna Kea. If it gets built in the Canaries everyone, everyone, even the "winners" lose.
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@Richard H. Duggan Actually, many native Hawaiians support this project. I honestly don't understand why people don't know this.
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@Veronica Ohara you keep on repeating the same comment like a broken record. Many indigenous Hawaiians do not support it and those against it are increasing in numbers.
@Veronica Ohara Opponents of the telescope never mention this for ... reasons.
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One essential component of all religion (yes, even native american) is the need to gripe about their sacred temples being defiled. An instrument of near devine purpose is seen as desecration. Some of us hope to see the ends of our universe while others strain to see the end of their noses.
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"The dispute also underscores the disconnect between Western science and the remarkable achievements of Polynesian astronomy, which enabled navigation across the vast Pacific to connect with tiny islands — mere specks, really — thousands of miles away."
I don't follow Dr. Huth's logic here. Can we not acknowledge the historical achievements of the Polynesians in the field of navigation, while at the same time giving credit to the great achievements of modern astronomical science?
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Please do not treat this false dichotomy of o "indigenous science and Western science". First of all the science of the TMT is not western. China and Japan are part of the TMT collaboration. China and Japan are not western. Futhermore modern astronomy is built on the data from the traditional astromies from around the world including that from Hawaii. This is creationism VS actual science at worst and traditional practices VS modern practices at best.
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Hawaii was discovered by native explorers using the stars to navigate through an endless and unknown ocean. The TMT would usher in a new era in space exploration and discovery by giving us a much larger lens into the universe. How this is offensive to Hawaiians, I will never understand. Yet, the astronomy community has been totally respectful of their traditions and religious beliefs, which should certainly be taken seriously. I just want to say that any God that is against scientific exploration should not deserve worship, much less endless politicking and protesting over.
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@JG You phrase the core issue perfectly when you write: "How this is offensive to Hawaiians I will never understand." Indeed. Yet, with your acknowledged inability to understand what is deeply offensive spiritually to many, probably most, native Hawaiians, you blithely assert--all the way from San Jose--that Hawaiians are worshiping an undeserving god. With that attitude you easily would have passed muster in the 19th century as a Protestant missionary to the Sandwich Islands.
As a long-time resident of the state, I appreciate Hawaiian culture and try to be supportive. But I can't get behind this protest movement. If the site was bare and didn't already have 13 telescopes, I could see the point. I'm not sure how one more - albeit the largest- will suddenly make it not -sacred - especially when UH says they'll dismantle some old ones. Watching the protests here on Maui, I can't help wondering if the telescope protest is not symbolic of the mistreatment and disrespect that Native Hawaiians feel in general? I can understand that and would like to hear what they think needs to be done to make things right. But if that's the case, then holding up the telescope as a symbol seems a bit dishonest and unfair to the majority of us who what to see it built.
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@JL Pacifica : The Hawaiians got a rotten deal when Europeans arrived at their islands, and they have much to complain about up to the present day. The TMT protestors have discovered a pressure point to use in trying to redress these historical grievances, and in the abstract I support their objectives. But the protestors use the goals and aspirations of astronomers as a means to their end, and having devoted my life to the learning and teaching of astronomy I simply can’t support that — no sentient being should use another as the means to any end, no matter how lofty.
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There is nothing more spiritually uplifting than peering into the heavens and witnessing the vast mysteries of the universe. Native Hawaiians should encourage blessing this remarkable instrument and celebrate its discoveries.
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I'm a little concerned about where this would go if groups are able to claim a religious or cultural exemption on land based on ancient history, i.e. where do we draw lines? There were similar problems with geothermal drilling when I lived in Hawai'i: you drill into the volcano, which has cultural and religious significance. But if the HI Supreme Court ruled on this, it should be the last legal word unless there is a case to be taken to Federal Court.
That said, the political words remain. It doesn't help when a well known Professor of Physics at UH Manoa throws a culturally demeaning rhetorical bomb under the tent flap, further driving the sides apart (as reported in the Hawai'i media).
Given the history of the State of Hawaii, i.e., going back to the overthrow of the monarchy by Dole et al and continuing into the early 1990's when I sometimes heard UH faculty disparaging "local" students, and with the unresolved and longstanding issues related to colonization, the two sides must find a happy medium: build the telescope and find something to remove and clean up so the place doesn't get any more cluttered with Western artifacts. And, provide space for traditional Hawaiian practices.
This issue will not go away without bringing the interested parties together in compromise. After all, the state motto is "Ua Mau ke Ea o ka ʻĀina i ka Pono"
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It’s also worth pointing out that ancient Hawaiians used Mauna Kea for economic benefit as well. They did this by establishing the largest rock quarry in the world at the time at the 12,000 ft level on Mauna Kea and excavated tons of rock out of the Mauna to harvest adze. This directly contradicts the argument that Mauna Kea is too sacred for any type of economic activity. There are many Native Hawaiians for and against TMT/Astronomy on Mauna Kea. The article’s title makes it seems as if it’s all Native Hawaiians against scientists. This is just wrong, Hawaii residents of all backgrounds have a positron not this. The situation is far more nuanced that what this article portrays.
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@Champ Taylor Agreed, and the writer should have spoken with our students to learn that many native Hawaiians are working towards higher degrees in astronomy and physics.
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@Veronica Ohara only a few are
I am hesitant to wade into this debate, though I would like to think that an enormous telescope which will help open up more of the universe for human knowledge could be quite appropriate for a sacred site. Especially one whose sacredness had always been associated with astronomy and sky gazing.
It is hardly the equivalent of putting a resort, a military base, a casino, or worse, a Walmart there.
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Mauna Kea’s biggest advantage over La Palma is that Maunakea is a colder and far drier site, making it far more suitable at wavelengths much longer than what the human eye can see. These “thermal infrared” (thermal IR) wavelengths are critical for many TMT science cases. For example, light from Earth-like planets around Sun-like stars is directly detectable in the thermal IR. The report concludes that TMT on Mauna Kea would be 4 or 5 times more effective than La Palma in the thermal IR and also more effective than the E-ELT, which is sited at Cerro Armazones in Chile.
“La Palma is just too low, too warm, and too wet to be competitive with Mauna Kea in the thermal IR and isn’t good enough with AO to really make up the difference. Some science, including that in exoplanets, La Palma might not be able to do at all but would be feasible from Mauna Kea”, said Currie, who is familiar with the source data for the report.
Experts sharply disagree. “Sure, technology makes generally things better, but you can’t just magically remove all the moisture in the air above La Palma. We don’t have a giant dehumidifier stretching up into the stratosphere,” said Currie.
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@MauiPunter - Thanks for this explanation
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@MauiPunter To compare the sites, scientists and engineers should be able to say "La Palma's elevation will result in x% less sensitivity; Its temperature will mean y% less EM radiation from IR sources at these frequencies; and the additional humidity will obscure z% of the images, all compared with the Mauna Kea." If Professor Huth is correct that La Palma is 'good enough' then 'the numbers' will bear that out.
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@Mike
You might try looking up those numbers, which certainly exist. Serious astronomers don't deal in vagueness except when writing for popular culture, which does not handle measurements (other than in dollars) very well.
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Thank you Dr. Huth for making it clear that there is no law of physics that requires that it be built there.
For some reason,I can't help but think of the lyrics to Gil Scot-Heron's "Whitey on the Moon"... Look it up if you're unfamiliar, but it's essentially an argument about distributive justice.. and the perceived injustices of allocating resources to "progress" and "modernity" at the expense of the social good.
But I like to imagine what some of these commentators would say if the shoe was on the other foot. Imagine a more powerful group with different customs, let's call it the Indigenous Nation State, needing the ground zero site in Manhattan, or Mount Rushmore, or the the washington monument, etc. They wish to build a Tower to the Sky - that for them, is important to understanding their place in the universe and advancing questions that they view as scientific.
"But it will bring you good JOBS!" probably wouldn't satisfy some of the protestors.
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The fact that there are 13 telescopes on top of the mountain right now makes their argument mute. They didn't get up there in secret overnight. It's a sacred mountain to native Hawaiians, fine. Are they banned from the mountain or can they not see the sun because of the telescopes? Are they demanding the telescopes be removed because 13 telescopes are okay but 14 is too much? What's stopping them from their religious practices on the mountain or is the presence of the haole's the thing?
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@markd Their argument is hardly mute! I think you meant "moot." And most of us learned a good counter argument when we were very small: two wrongs [or 13 in this case] don't make a right.
I'm a scientist who is all too aware that a blind quest for knowledge often tramples on human rights. C.f. the Tuskegee experiements; pelvic exams performed on unconscious, unconsenting women; and here in my own state, the Amchitka nuclear tests. There are many more examples of the dominant culture (usually N. European males) deciding what's in the best interests of humanity without seeking or weighing others' points of view.
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@Humanist - These are very false equivalences. It's important not to think of the astronomy community as just a bunch of dominating haoles that want to trample on the rights and traditions of Native Hawaiians. It is the complete opposite. Also, how are the current telescopes "wrongs"? They are responsible for invaluable discoveries to science and astronomy. I think the protesters should open their minds and ears to the reasoning behind Mauana Kea being the perfect site for TMT. Their ancestors were astronomers. They should embrace astronomy rather than protest it.
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@Humanist There is NO equivalence between building a telescope on a mountain which hurts no one and things like the Tuskeegee experiement or the work of Dr Mengele. To assert such is offensive to all those who have suffered actual genocide and sustained dehumanization.
Kanaka Maoli were not treated as equals post overthrow but they were not exterminated or bought and sold as chattel, nor suffered anything akin to Indian removal.
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