My wife and I both work for large media organizations in New York City. We consider ourselves open minded and fairly liberal people. I read with interest ‘What Should I do About My Awful,Sexist Boss’ on Sunday evening and went to bed perplexed. While it sounds like the writer’s boss is a difficult person in need of attention, I was at a loss to understand where the outrage stemmed from. When I read it to my wife in the morning she accused me a skipping sections of the authors complaint. I can easily see myself watching a Miley Cyrus video and commenting to a friend that I’d prefer my daughter doesn’t use her as a life model. One will encounter people in life whose views don’t always agree with their own, and sometimes it will be a person of authority. Being able to navigate these situations is to swim in the currents of Democracy. Maybe my wife and I are not sufficiently “woke” or privy to the twists and turns of third wave feminism, but the writers complaints only serve to remind me of the growing ideological gulf in this nation of thought and tolerance in the workplace.
R.P.
20
The obnoxious boss unfortunately IS aware of 3rd wave feminism, me too etc. & needs everyone, especially everyone female to know that he is. (he thinks women should run the world). You can't make him unknow what he's reading/hearing about everyday, & although you can sometimes get people to stop a particular behaviour that you find upsetting (like please don't talk about my clothes), I've never known an obnoxious individual to stop being obnoxious. apparently some people's nature is to make cringe-worthy remarks.
4
38 years in the workplace for me, all of it in a male dominated profession. I, too, was confused by the first letter, and read it twice, perplexed and trying to find the real problem.
Then I figured it out and rejoiced! If this is what passes for workplace sexual harrassment today, we can put down our swords and go home - it's over and we've won.
21
dear kwame, i don't know how or where to contact you but perhaps you can help. i consider myself 'friends' with a woman in a very high-powered position, who has taken stance on a platform: against bullyijng. nevertheless, her husband continues to 'tweet' jeering, name calling/mocking remarks, giving all he refers to a snide, petty 'nickname' -- a 'bullying' nickname. what do you suggest i tell his wife? she appears to be oblivious to what he is doing.
7
@broccoli fractal Tell her to vote, and to vote him out of office.
14
Remember this date Kwame Anthony Appiah: November 14, 2019 -The date Governor Andrew M Cuomo signed Senate Bill S3419 into law giving most adults 18 years of age or older NYS ADOPTEES access to their unrestricted unredacted certified Original Birth Certificates after 84 years of being denied by people like YOU!
Andrew Cuomo is my hero for finally giving to adoptees in his state a right that was long over due and always theirs despite a man named Lehman who denied his own adopted 'daughter' her rights to know her own identity and not his.
You can make up all the lies you want to tell yourself about false constructs concerning adoptees, but the truth is that we are constructed naturally by the genome given us by our own parents, not by the court appointed ones.
And you dare to call yourself ethical, and worse, honorable!
#DNA_R_Us and the ONLY ties that bind.
2
@GazelleDZ OK, but is this the only place in the entire newspaper you could post this comment? What about a letter to the editor?
6
Five cats does not a hoarder make.
38
By all means, file a lawsuit.
1
Do what I did when I worked for one overbearing female boss after another at a Wall Street Brokerage House. I quit and got a better job paying more and haven't looked back since.
13
I may be a relic but have workplaces really changed this much? The writer of letter 1 talks about hanging out/socializing with a boss she doesn’t like. Why? Does the company own her so she is required to spend her off work time with her co-workers?
To me this sounds like a culture issue. If the writer could choose to not spend her down time with this boss, she would be able to regroup from her day. This intense overlap of work/social sounds like what is truly toxic here. Perhaps toxic boss also needs some time away from her to regroup outside the presence of his staff.
This is a problem at the top.
24
Maybe grandma PREFERS the cats over the grandson, hasn’t she ‘paid her dues’ to have who/what she prefers at her house?
52
Years ago, I worked in a government office, a niche service, where a top supervisor pressured his female subordinates for dates, even though he was married and had children. It was an open secret everyone knew, including his boss. Most female staff acquiesced and found themselves pressured into sexual relations with him. One woman was attractive, college educated, single, and in her 30s. She struck me as always bitter, until I learned that she had fallen in love with her boss, who had moved on to pursuing new hirees.
What I did, and what I would still do, is leave. Nowadays I would also request an exit interview and tell H.R. I still wouldn't want to stay, because even if the supervisor had gotten fired, there would have been some staffers who resented the firing. I would rather make a clean break and go.
6
There is a human being suffering that has been invited to live in the house. Financially difficulties doesn't mean the grandson is an unemployed loser. He could be a recent graduate, recovering from an illness or surgery, newly back from a deployment. He may need the support of family and all other family members are too remote! Five cats is excessive. And with all the cat lovers out there I'm sure someone would be willing to temporarily take them in during the grandson stay. If the situation were reversed, I'm not sure so many would be quick to tell grandma to hit the road.
4
1. Big different between harassment and inappropriate behavior. Sure, go to HR. But maybe also get a little perspective; not everything you have a right to complain about it worth complaining about.
2. If she’s really a hoarder, those cats will at least kill the rats.
11
Mr. Appiah
These two situations generated so much commentary, and some put you in the hot seat, with many readers thinking you missed a point or two, that maybe you could take on a Part II addressing common questions brought up by readers, and an analysis, perhaps, of how your personal background may have affected your own response. The legal and ethical do require different takes, and are quite different themselves from the "comfortable." I think that some issues - family ties and the obligations that arise from them ( as in the 2nd situation) -- may seem to be ethical in some cultures, and less so in others. One may be: do certain relatives have an obligation to put their own happiness aside to assist other members?
And ( in LW!'s situation), Did the "boss" engage in behavior that interfered the LW's ability to do her job; demanded inappropriate interaction with him as a condition of employment or advancement, or interfered with he personal life? [It seemed as a reader that the woman showing a music video she liked was a matter of her breaking a boundary, unless that video had something material to do with their work.
Resolution - or just a full explanation - of the issues begs for more analysis.
7
With what the kid spends on allergy medication and shots he could afford to live in a rental apartment away from the cats. Why should grandma give up her pets so that her freeloading grandson can hang out at her place....possibly for life?
23
A comment to add to one I made previously on cats vs. grandson. Appiah is supposedly a "philosopher, cultural theorist, and novelist." What qualifications does he have to suggest an action plan for a psychiatric condition that may or may not exist? May I speculate that the family is looking for approval for getting rid of grandma as well as her cats without feeling guilty about it. Appiah has without any justification given them the green light to do so.
36
Re: Grandmother & her cats. The letter is written by her daughter - is the grandson her own son? If so the bias is obvious. Why isn't she taking in the young man in question. Daughter may judge as she wishes but the home belongs to grandmother to live as she wishes. Calling her a "hoarder" as a way to justify a viewpoint is mean spirited. Grandmother is in no way obliged to get rid of her cats as she is to take in a relative. Daughter and grandson can look for other options.
42
I would never discuss something of this sort with HR. Whatever their stated purpose, their real job, what they actually do, is to protect the company, not the employee bringing the complaint.
20
@Bradley Bleck
What I would consider is how the acts that the worker is complaining about affect the work environment and the specifically the ability of that worker to do their job to their best of their ability. HR does of course protect the company, but ideally that is done in part via insuring that there are no illegal acts, and no unethical acts which would put the the company in a bad light. AND that people otherwise in good stead are provided with tools to remedy the unwanted behavior.
The first course of action if something questionable is identified would be in deciding where is fits - does it require immediate action to separate the boss from staff? Suspension? Or does it require a referral for some sort of training, or counseling? ( i once met someone who had been referred for specific counseling /coaching on people skills because while his job skills were fine, his interpersonal skills were poor to nonexistent. As in - just a guess - he annoyed people to distraction, without any intent to do so).
2
Tennessee Williams seems to offer example after example of inappropriate dominant behavior and individuals having to react to it in his plays, such as "The Glass Menagerie," "A Streetcar Named Desire," and "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." In her essay in the digital NY Times (04/16/2019) entitled: "Your Therapist's Prescription? The Right Book;" by Lori Gottlieb, she discusses how bibliotherapy, "a term for the psychological benefit patients get from discussing books during a session;" can sometimes enable patients to better understand their own environments; as Williams' works do. Much of the value of drama and life is being privileged to observe individuals take their gene pool's innate strengths and weaknesses and attempt to adapt to often harsh environments, as per the "behavior dialectical" model, from psychology.
[11/11/2019 Mon 3:48pm Greenville NC]
3
The advice given about grandson v. cats is among the stupidest things I've read in a long time. Where was the family when the grandmother was obviously lonesome for companionship? Even if grandmother is a hoarder (and I doubt she is), it's her home. Why should the grandmother be expected to suffer for the freeloading grandson? Send the grandson to a homeless shelter or put him up for adoption. Better yet, have him move back in with his heartless parents!
37
Morality and relations are now administered by HR for the benefit of employers. This now includes off-work association, Appiah is one with the surveliiance protocols of late fascism .
1
What qualifies this advice "columnist" to dispense replies of an "ethical" nature.
7
@glorybe He is a philosophy professor. Ethics is part of his field.
3
@PrairieFlax I think he should look for other work. NYC has many more qualified for the position.
5
When did philosopher Professor Appiah become an expert on mental illness?
14
To the 2nd letter-writer re the cats vs the grandson: I sincerely disagree that the grandmother should have to get rid of her companion animals in order to accommodate a grandchild (presumably an adult one). He is the one who has come essentially begging for an assist from her while he is (presumably) unemployed. She is under no obligation to assist him (where are his parents?). She is nevertheless doing so, however, and it feels as if it is unappreciated that she is trying to be helpful. It is grossly unfair on the part of anyone to want her to give up her pets just because he has allergies and it is not that simple to re-home cats, especially if they are older animals. Most shelters will just destroy them within a day or two of surrender. Surely she does not want that to happen to them, especially as she rescued them to begin with. And, if Grandma wasn't around at all to help, what would the grandson do then? I am also suspicious of the "hoarding" comment. Unless Grandma lives in a very small studio apartment, 5 cats is not a particularly large "hoard". I feel the letter writer used this term to sway the Ethicist's response in her/her favor. Hoarding usually involves many, many more animals and personal belongings than that. If she really were a hoarder, the grandson might not have been able to move in with her at all.
45
I had 5 cats at one time. No hoarder, I. The first was to replace one that died. The second was as a companion for the first. The third and fourth were because we realized that we had the room, the finances, and the ability to take in more. The fifth was a Maine Coon kitten that had been abandoned on the side of a road, and 5 wasn't really more trouble than 4. But that's where we drew the line.
Had someone who was allergic absolutely needed to live with me for financial reasons, I'd have worked with them to find a different place to live.
Cats aren't piles of newspaper and 5 aren't a lot. A case for hoarding hasn't been made -- although more may have been said than was printed.
But no one NEEDS to move in with one particular person for financial reasons. The truth is more likely that the grandson could no longer afford to live on his own. There ARE other options besides a grandmother with 5 cats. Living with her isn't needed -- it's expedient.
And when the grandson leaves, the grandmother is alone. Unless she can get those cats back.
Who is paying for the allergy meds? Why couldn't that be used for room and board?
43
I suggest that second letter writer take in the grandchild so that the grandchild doesn't have to worry about cat allergies
38
Kwame, why would you encourage self-serving comments from the 2nd letter writer instead of shedding light on them? Why would you “diagnose” Grandma with a psychiatric condition because she doesn't knuckle under to her grown child’s demands? You seem like an insightful person and obviously know you’re a philosopher, not a mental health professional. Grandma generously gave her grandson two years of rent-free housing to get on his feet. If you want to support this family, suggest they help grandson address the situation that put him in financial difficulty. Suggest they encourage him to move into a roommate situation to build an independent life. Also suggest the letter writer get support to understand why they’re portraying Grandma in such a manipulative way. The cats she rescued from her backyard are a family, probably siblings – and now part of her own family, like many of our pets. Very hard to find new homes for cats unless they’re adorable baby kittens, many shelters will euthanize within 3 days. Sadly, this letter shows how certain groups are vulnerable to the machinations of others … in this case, women and elders... and how animals pay the price when the people in their lives have problems.
48
I don't understand why or how this boss is so terrible. How does voicing an opinion constitute sexual harassment? Declaring that a pop singer's performance is anti-feminist is hardly sexist behavior. What if a woman said this? I have more than once similarly lamented the way many female performers present themselves. Professor Appiah's advice is off the mark. I think the writer may have been dismissive because of the person's age and gender.
45
Your boss is allowed to endorse the perspective of second-wave feminists. Also, you were playing music videos of a woman dancing because why?
The reason you can't think of specific gender-focused complaints to make to HR is that you don't have any. You just don't like him.
55
i am sorry, but 5 cats is n o t hoarding. If I am allowed to move in someone and be under t h e i r roof, it is none of my business how that person conducts their life. Cats or otherwise.
33
@bess
"The reason you can't think of specific gender-focused complaints to make to HR is that you don't have any. You just don't like him."
yes. I agree that is exactly the situation here. there seems no evidence of actual discrimination.
I am female and if someone put on a sexually suggestive video in the workplace I would shut it off immediately as unprofessional. Perhaps that letter writer has not considered the fact that someone could well go to HR with a complaint about her.
22
@Anon
I agree - playing that video could actually be construed as sexual harassment in itself - making others uncomfortable by playing something sexually suggestive that others are being required to watch as part of their job duties. This cuts both ways.
There seems to be a cohort of young people who believe that THEY should always be perfectly comfortable at work and if THEY have any discomfort someone should do something, quick. That's not quite how this works. It sounds very possible the boss was made to feel uncomfortable watching that video. Telling him he must read up on third-wave feminism is not the solution. Why should he? Why shouldn't he feel comfortable at work, too?
16
With regard to the first issue, it sounds reasonable that businesses would wish to eliminate such behavior, but the truth is that HR exists solely to indemnify the business against management bad acts. The cost of attempting to address such behavior by a wronged employee is exorbitant.
6
The Ethicist really dropped the ball on the issue of the cat-owning grandmother. The letter itself is not really appropriate for the column, because the LR is giving a little information- which might or might not be accurate- to get a verdit as to a third person's ethical obligations, rather than their own. The LR is also diagnosing the other person as a hoarder with no supporting evidence. If anything, it's the LR whose ethics are questionable. Grandparents are not responsible for housing their adult grandchildren and cats are not inanimate objects that should be discarded for the convenience of an adult who really has no right to live in the home. These cat's are living creatures and are important companions and family members of the woman who took them in and owns them. After two years her bond with them is probably very strong and important for her mental health. They were homeless when she took them in and it's unlikely they could be rehomed. The LR expresses no concern about his or her mother's own health or well-being, but only about their young adult nephew or son's convenience, which I find very odd as a family dynamic. Something is off here, and I don't think it's the LR's mother.
44
Regarding the first story-it seems to me, a 56 year old business owner with mostly female employees, that this generation of 20 year olds has coping issues. If you have a problem, deal with it directly. Just because you have an issue doesn't make it harassment
116
@Robert G - There is a power imbalance here. You are the business owner and have employees. Can't you imagine the fear and stress at the thought of standing up to a bully who controls your finances and career? The situation "Name Withheld" described is very common in the work world. If you have any doubt about who holds the power and distributes the wealth in our nation, look at the pictures of the Executives in the next issue of Forbes. BTW, you are an "OK Boomer" retort in the making when you categorize her generation as having "coping issues". What a dismissive thing to put in writing.
84
@Jenny It's really not dismissive. At no point, does she say in her complaint anything about the power differential, which says to me she isn't concerned about it, and shouldn't be. She just wants to continue to be a team player.
15
Does the Ethicist edit or condense the letters he receives? Often there are unclear situations or inconsistencies that make it difficult for commenters to zero in on the actual issue being discussed, e.g. the relationship of the writer to the allergic person living with his grandmother and 5 cats.
13
@Mary
I've asked that question repeatedly because none of the recent letters offer sufficient useful information on which to render any opinion much less ethical evaluation.
LW1 describes her boss as "significantly older" w/o saying more about herself than "in her 20s." So is she 22 & he's 32? 42? 52? Why is his age of an relevance?
7
Letter #2 only asked about ethical behavior of the grandmother, for the grandson, how about asking advice for her own efforts in helping both these close relatives
13
Why does Professor Appiah hate cats?
23
For the grandson, beggars can't be choosers as the saying goes.
Grandma should not have to release her companions, she is doing enough as it is. Maybe some re-ordering, have some no-cat zones etc.. and the grandson can take on an extra job just to stay out of the house and get himself on his feet.
27
Regarding the cats, it seems clear that the ethicist doesn’t “get it” about cats. Adopting five homeless cats is admirable, and assuming responsibility for their well-being is a demonstration of compassion. The definition of hoarding doesn’t fit the description at all and is derogatory and insulting. It isn’t easy to re-home cats, who are shy and creatures of habit. Kudos to the woman for standing her ground and not being bullied by her judgmental daughter. And the ethicist really dropped the ball on this one.
55
agreed...five cats is absolutely n o t hoarding. Kid doesnt like it....tough toenails, as we used to say in sixth grade.
23
You should have stopped at "people are not generally obliged to provide board for their straitened grandchildren, let alone relinquish their pets for the purpose. "
The older woman deserves to live as she wishes - the grandson should mooch off another relative or friend.
48
Keep the cats. That relationship likely to be more reliable.
46
LW1- Don't drink with your boss or any other fellow employees. While it is not exoneration for bad behavior, bad things happen when people drink too much. Report the guy's behavior to HR or move on to another job.
LW2- The cats are not the problem. The woman may or may not be a hoarder, she just has more stuff than the LW. If it disturbs the grandson so much, he should move out. The cats, if they are not breeding, are just part of her family. If the LW is so concerned, take in the grandchild or pay for other living quarters.
34
"loosey-goosey" as a corporate culture and/or leaders who exemplify a casual style but have real power may indicate a business environment with contradictory formal and informal rules. That's the boss apologizes at times, indicates there may be policies and procedures however, I'd be curious if they have ever been enacted. And, if so, how did the person complaining fare.
The employee's complaints muddle possible unprofessional management behavior and illegal office behavior. If the employee expects to be taken seriously, she needs to clearly define what behavioral of her boss is illegal. Without such clarity, her real complaints could be dismissed.
Even if a company is loosey-goosey, I doubt a legal complaint against another employee will be treated as such.
6
Grandma with 5 cats: This is surely further evidence that ' No good deed goes unpunished': Diagnosing the grandma with a psychiatric condition is a very serious matter which could lead to legal repercussions such as her ability to manage her own affairs. The ethicist as well as the grand daughter should be aware of this before 'diagnosing' Gma.
Gma generously allowed Gson to stay, she had the 5 cats for 2 years, so Gson and G daughter knew she had cats and they all knew Gson had allergies.This is a matter that should have been resolved prior to Gson moving in. If Gma was clear, and I think she probably was, that she would not give up her 5 cats, Gson should have been placed somewhere else. Finally, if Gma really were a 'hoarder', why would you place your Gson into an environment where he may not have room to thrive?
36
My mother took in five cats..
"her" grandson who moved in for financial reasons is allergic... Should this really read "my mother took in my son who is allergic to her cats?" Why didn't the financially strapped, cat allergic grandson move back in with the author of this query? Why should grandmom be expected to get rid of her cats to accommodate her cash strapped grandson? I mean the cats were there first! Seriously, there is nothing unethical about having five cats and refusing to put them out for her grandson. If the author of this query and the grandson are having cat issues, the author can take in the allergic grandson. By the way, I don't buy the hoarding statement, I believe that was inserted to devert attention from the financially strapped grandson, which sadly to much was focused on hoarding and not the grandson.
41
There's not enough information as to why the grandson has to live there and to assume the grandmother is a "hoarder" gives a negative bias to the conversation.
24
How old is the grandchild? Are we talking about a 6 year old or a 36 year old?
Is there really no other option for housing than for a person deathly allergic of cats to live with a person with a house full of cats?
Why does she expect her mother to give up her pets to house her child? Why doesn't she house him instead of burdening her mother?
I know so many people with multiple pets that I find it hard to believe it is a psychiatric disorder. I find that advice questionable and harmful.
It is the grandmother's house. If she wants 5 cats, it is her business.
Find other housing instead of feeling entitled that the grandmother should get rid of her pets because someone in the family is in a financial jam.
Whether she found the cats in her yard or bought them, they are still her pets.
28
It never ceases to amaze me how advice columnists tell the letter writer to "go to the Human Resources Department." Yeah, in the end, the complaint will have to be made there, but that's just channels. HR works for the company, period. It's first responsibility is to protect the company, at nearly all costs. HR does not "help people." It "deals with" people. If her HR department is any good, they already know about this guy. Yet, he's still there. Plus the self-inflicted liabilities of a beer tap? Sheesh.
17
If the grandmother’s cats well cared for, its difficult to make a case for hoarding. On all levels, it’s also not so simple to find new homes or the cats, nor should the Grandmother feel compelled to. If anything, the mother here seems something of a bully. Too bad for the kid, but the cats got there first.
31
In terms of the first letter, yes, this man is acting in a sexist manner. It is offensive for someone to distinguish the traits of women versus men in general. It immediately puts someone into a box with certain traits and expectations simply because they are a woman. His prefaces this comment by saying that women should run the world, and by doing so, one one hand, acts as if this idea is so absurd that it is amusing and on the other hand, tries to disguise his negative comment as a flattering one.
He also states that what the entertainer is doing is not acceptable for a woman, which is absolutely no business of his to decide, and then once again, tries to disguise a sexist remark as a compliment by saying to the women co-workers that he wants his daughter to be like them not the entertainer.
On top of this, he is in general shoving his authority around and making sure subordinates remember they are subordinate.
Comments here that he is just being a boss or it's no big thing are missing the point. There are 'microaggressions' that are meant to put and keep women in a particular place. I am a 64 year old woman and I would have been offended at any of this behavior. If you think it's okay, you are also okay with similar behavior towards other traditionally repressed groups. It's not okay.
4
@Ali Litts Grow thick skin -- "microaggressions" are and always have been nonsensical. The world is not meant to be served to you on a silver platter... and there are other people in the world who may have opinions different than yours. At 64 you have yet to grow up.
5
Hers is a small company and they probably don’t have an HR department. Each employee probably were required to watch an on-line video about sexual harassment when they were hired, which is about all the training they got. Everyone, especially the offender, will know who reported him to the higher ups. She should take contemporaneous notes of all incidents, dated and time-stamped, and keep a file. Include any sketchy written (or text) communications from him. She should shine up her resume and get out. Resist the urge to write an scorched earth memo upon leaving. Burning bridges will only leave her with no road to walk.
4
Having 5 cats is not hoarding. She is not "ill". The cats are not a symptom of a psychiatric disorder. I have 3 and will be fostering more. Am I crazy? Seriously, her grandchild can go elsewhere. Or get his shots.
30
@Deborah Professor Appiah hates cats. We have two. More my husband's than mine (I am a dog person), but I don't regard 5 as hoarding. I had to carry around an EpiPen a few years back for severe food allergies. It's doable I agree with you that one can cope with allergies with the medications out there.
9
Dear author of Sexist Aweful Boss. If you feel that his comments were offensive and inappropriate then chances are they were, in your eyes. However, the pendulum swings both ways. Putting on a video of the nature described in the article is also inappropriate and can be seen as reverse harassment. If you feel as if you are being disrespected you should file a complaint with human resources, but I caution you, do not put yourself in a situation where you are the provocateur (re the video). You should be prepared, keep a journal of the events as they happen. This will allow you to take a step back and determine if in fact the comments were inappropriate or if you are reading more into it than merited. Your contemporainus journal should include the date of the offence, time, witnesses and what was said. You want to write everything down the moment it happens. You should keep in mind that filing a complaint of this nature can be emotionally challenging and may have serious consequences that can possibly result in retaliation (which is illegal) and can create an even more hostile work environment. So you may want to consider speaking with him prior to filing a complaint. You may want to say "your statement makes me feel uncomfortable" and give him the opportunity to respond. Finally, to those who have commented by resorting to name calling "buttercup" or equally disrespectful statements should think twice, would you say that to your child? Probably not!
3
5 cats hardly constitute either “hoarding “ or a psychiatric condition. I wonder at the qualifications of the writer of the letter, and for that matter this column to casually slap this label on the grandmother..of course, there may be more to this, but that’s not reflected here. Not to mention making the sacrifice of giving up privacy &more to take in this presumably adult grandchild, but then being judged by her daughter for not throwing out her beloved pets. And why isn’t the daughter stepping up if it’s not a good environment for the grandchild? By all means criticize on....
26
NW1 - the bad boss’ remarks don’t appear to rise to the level of the traditional legal standard for sexual harassment, but most workplaces have rules that go beyond the law by articulating a lower threshold - subjective, with no objective or pervasiveness check - that enable HR to take action on the basis of allegations like this. And in fact it’s true that HR will want to take action to reduce the litigation risk, true, but also to retain HR’s credibility with the employees who rely on it. The larger problem with this fact pattern is that bad boss isn’t predatory and he doesn’t think he’s being sexist. In other words he’s clueless. There are lots of men in the workplace, usually an older generation, who simply can not adjust to the emerging new normal. HR tries to train them and if they’re not completely dimwitted it can help because they are not intending to cause harm or “keep women in their place.” But he will repeat his behavior, inevitably, because it’s who he is. As for the nonsexist jerk boss part of it, we’ll that’s just a result of employees being promoted for the wrong reasons. A superstar accountant may make a bad manager, but superstars get promoted and workplaces are full of bad managers who got there because they’re good at something else; the Peter principle. We need a revolution in workplace thinking and dynamics to fix that one.
1
The young woman should think about setting boundaries that make her feel comfortable and able to work. May be a white lie about night school to avoid drinks and silly videos. Real friendships outside of work. Keeping a log of any truly discriminatory behavior. And not engaging in silly conversations about the boss' kids. He sounds very socially inept, so it's best to avoid and limit non- working hours time with him.
She's going to run into lots of sticky situations in her professional life. Best to figure out how to manage this one.
And - beer at work? Why?
12
Re: 'Sexist Boss'. The line, '..our office has a Beer-Tap in the kitchen', is one of the most eye-opening revelations I think I've ever read. Wow! I have to wonder what kind of company it is, really, 'deep down'. The fact that The Ethicist didn't 'pick up' on this seems strange. First of all, the fact there's free beer in the kitchen, whether or not it's being used by this boss, may or may not have implications to this story. But the fact that the free beer is 'THERE', says something about the company your work for that I can't put my finger on, exactly. It's not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but I think it speaks an unspoken language here that's probably (partially) relevant.
7
Why does LW#2 take in the kid if she is so concerned? it’s her mother’s house. Stop treating it like it’s yours.
20
After reading the first letter from the 20-something woman about her boss, I am wondering if this is a real letter of concern.
8
Re: #1- this women needs to lighten up. Nothing her manager said about women is over the line in the environment she presents. In fact, he complimented her as a person when he said he wants his daughter to be more like her than the women entertainer who presumably used sexuality as part of her performance. Her boss seems to be a highly stressed out person when under pressure and no doubt hard to deal with, but he is not sexually harassing her, and the things that he said does not prove he is a misogynist. His statement that men are funnier than women is his opinion, not necessarily his view that women are less than men. When co-workers socialize together, especially when alcohol is involved, there's bound to be differences of opinion. If she doesn't like this guy, she should just stop socializing with him and keep it professional.
24
Send the grandson to a farm upstate. Keep the cats.
22
I’m a woman, an employer of dozens of people and in my 40’s I’m shocked - if the writer of letter 1, represents the result of what my generation and my mother/grandmother’s generation fought for.... we are doomed...
The young lady needs to get a grip. Nothing on the account rises up to “me too”.
What I see is an insecure woman without any leadership skills, upset and thinking she should be consulted in the decision making bc she is a woman. He is the boss. Earn it my friend, our mothers burning their bra has provided you with this opportunity to start on equal footing. No one is going to hand you things on a platter w/the crusts cut off, we all (including men who have to deal with the likes of the writer) have to deal with unpleasant stuff at times. How we navigate it is what makes us better creative leaders and better people. Running to HR for this tells me as an employer that the writer has no capacity to deal with issues on your own. This is the real world as an adult you are expected to solve your problems and in the very least mitigate.
Ethicist - are you possessed by a 20yo woke spirt? I adore your column but you missed the mark on this one.
38
Re cat granny:
If she was a hoarder, why oh why oh why would her grandson want or be allowed to live there. You don’t say the house is filthy, cat feces (which is dangerous - look up cat scratch fever) or that the house is a fire hazard as would be her collecting was sever.
Sounds like daughter is pushing her will on her mother.
19
@Thereaa Cat feces is really only dangerous to pregnant women, hence the warning to let someone else change the litter box during those months.
5
Hoarding is a specific psychiatric diagnosis, and my thought is that it has been thrown about here (regarding the grandmother's number of cats) in order to justify her removal of the cats for the sake of the grandson. Curiously, the Ethicist failed to note this assumption. As others have observed, the grandmother has provided a humane service by giving a home to cats that are likely the result of others' failure to spay and neuter. Discarded animals that are not so fortunate end up in shelters where they are euthanized after being kept for only a few days. All of my cats have come from "no kill" shelters, and I have had to qualify as a responsible owner in order to adopt each one of them. I have only had two (2) at most at any given time, and they are a source of great joy and companionship. Driving around my rural area, I often see stray cats and dogs-these poor creatures will likely be hit by cars, or, if lucky, they might end up in shelters that will not euthanize them within a short period of time. Commenters such as VPM in Texas, Esq. in NY and db cooper in pacific northwest have expressed with clarity the value of the grandmother's commitment to her pets as well as the difficulty of re-homing and the reality of the over population of small animals which so many people treat as fungible goods. The family should find another place for the grandson to live.
21
"Co-workers are friends, managers are mentors, our office has a beer tap in the kitchen"
Give me a break, better yet, give me a beer! So company employees are one big, happy ( inibriated) family? Obviously not. This company's culture is a perfect setup for creating fuzzy boundaries leading to boundary violations. Company expects employees to spend more time together than even most good marriages can endure. Where in her job description does it say she needs to socialize, be friends, watch videos etc., with her co workers? If she goes to HR, it should be to take a stand against an unhealthy company culture, not against an employee who is struggling to survive just as much as she is.
23
"Co-workers are friends, managers are mentors, our office has a beer tap in the kitchen"
Give me a break, better yet, give me a beer! So company employees are one big, happy ( inibriated) family? Obviously not. This company's culture is a perfect setup for creating fuzzy boundaries leading to boundary violations. Company expects employees to spend more time together than even most good marriages can endure. Where in her job description does it say she needs to socialize, be friends, watch videos etc., with her co workers? If she goes to HR, it should be to take a stand against an unhealthy company culture, not against an employee who is struggling to survive just as much as she is.
1
"Co-workers are friends, managers are mentors, our office has a beer tap in the kitchen"
Give me a break, better yet, give me a beer! So company employees are one big, happy ( inibriated) family? Obviously not. This company's culture is a perfect setup for creating fuzzy boundaries leading to boundary violations. Company expects employees to spend more time together than even most good marriages can endure. Where in her job description does it say she needs to socialize, be friends, watch videos etc., with her co workers? If she goes to HR, it should be to take a stand against an unhealthy company culture, not against an employee who is struggling to survive just as much as she is.
I disagree with Mr. Appiah.
It is incredibly rare to launch a lawsuit against an employer who expresses his opinions albeit "women" in the work place. I have worked for trial employment attorneys who represented plaintiffs in real cases of discrimination in the work place and REAL HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS. There is no equivalency here with the instant case.
First, the young woman writer doubtlessly is from a generation that never suffered criticism, yelled at, or had been bossed by teachers, parents, coaches, or anyone for that matter until being employed.
Bosses ARE UNREASONABLE and have the privilege to vent. There ARE NO LAWS THAT PROHIBIT an employer from acting the way he or she wants within the civil and penal codes.
If the writer cannot tolerate the boss's criticisms or outbursts or the unfair treatment (not sexist dear - it is not sexist), quit.
It takes volumes of real offenses committed by this one boss that are extreme and pervasive to assert discriminatory and hostile conduct in the work place. Being upset does not qualify as having experienced harassment. Having worked litigation cases that go to arbitration ( because the victim does not want the allegations attached to their identities ) this is NOT A CASE.
The writer can file a complaint with her State's Fair Employment division. Attorneys there will evaluate her claim and find whether or not there is a "right to sue." And that letter will be on her record, forever. Proceed with caution.
27
The answer for letter writer #1 is excellent because of its nuance and call for a new social covenant about workplace culture that goes beyond the limits of current law. The answer acknowledges that power inequities in the workplace and the creation of a hostile environment by bosses who demean or humiliate employees simply because they can is something far, far greater than the limited lens of #MeToo. For example, in the nonprofit sphere, the bosses creating this environment are just as likely to be heterosexual white females; or an LGBTQ person. And the hostile atmosphere and target of their hostile behavior is just as likely to be a POC or even a male heterosexual employee. Kudos to Mr. Appiah for acknowledging the reality of the need for greater context.
3
To me the issue here is a lack of boundaries around employment expectations and hours. It's an environment perhaps like many companies that may be more comfortable for male employees. I think the young woman should try to get a new job and leave for a place with clearer demarcation between life time and work time. After she gets a new job she could make it better for those who come after her by letting the male bosses know that their workplace is hostile to women. I honestly think many workplaces don't want women. People are comfortable with their own. Of course, those places don't stay in business long.
3
Re the woman with 5 cats and her grandson: The cats were there first and if the grandmother does not want to get rid of any of them, they should stay. If the grandson has an issue with the cats, he can find someplace else to live. The grandmother should not be guilted into doing what is best for her grandson.
21
Baffled why it's not pointed out that as an adult grandson is responsible for himself. He can just move on if the free-living-arrangement is not agreeable. It's not his house.
36
Wondering why the son didn’t move back in with his mother - who clearly has no tolerance for pets.
9
Re the allergic grandson - I assume that being at his grandmother's is temporary till he finds his financial footing again, right? And I assume he's an adult since he has financial reasons to move in with her?
Why get rid of permanent residents (the cats) for a temporary one? He knew she had cats when he moved in; so he accepted the tradeoff - allergies for free rent. If it bothers him so much, aren't there other options? for example, move in with a friend and have the grandmother send a stipend to cover his share of the rent (if she is willing). Move in with other relatives who don't have cats.
Saying that the grandmother should give up her cats when the situation was clear that they existed before the grandson moved in - no. Especially since I assume (big assumption) this is not a permanent move in for him. Perhaps the cats will motivate him to get a job to support himself sooner than without them....
21
I feel that the first letter, and Kwame's response, epitomizes what happens when you raise kids the way people do now, with an obsession over comfort and "safety" above all else, including personal growth. Everyone comes under suspicion. Every little offense is taken as a crime against you and it must be stopped! Someone must pay the price!
Kids used to work this stuff out when they were actually outside playing games and sports with each other without any adults around. Now everything is overseen by adults, who step in to solve every problem. Kids used to fight and argue among themselves, work things out, and move on with the playing. That's a very important socialization, and we're seeing the effects of not allowing that to happen.
Is it any wonder this woman behaves in such a passive-aggressive way and wants to go directly to an authority figure with a complaint and expects HR to penalize the boss in some way?
Where's the crime here? That she disagreed with a few of his opinions? That she was made to feel mild discomfort? I'm at a loss.
50
With regard to the grandmother and her cats, finding good homes for adult cats is not easy. You are also assuming that the daughter's diagnosis of her mother is correct. These cats may very well be providing her mother with emotional comfort, whereas the grandson may not. If she gets rid of the cats, and then the grandson leaves, she is alone. Options for providing the grandson with a space that is as free from the cats as possible should be investigated until he can find another place to live.
13
Appiah is completely off-base regarding his assessment of the grandmother with cats and a freeloading grandson.
He seems to accept her daughter's diagnosis of a "hoarding disorder" without any evidence and makes further reference to her "illness." (Five cats is hardly a hoarding situation, and the fact that their numbers haven't increased means that she has had them spayed and neutered, which is responsible pet-owning behavior.)
The grandmother's generosity in allowing her grandson to live with her should be commended. She is under no obligation to part with her beloved animals on his behalf.
38
By her own description, letter writer #1 doesn't seem to have a problem publically challenging her boss in personal or professional settings. I wonder what a letter to the ethisist about her from her boss or coworkers would read like.
24
To letter writer number 2. Sorry you are wrong. The cats have every right to stay in a caring home. They could agree that the cats are not allowed in his room, and then make arrangements for a hep air filter. If not he should move out to a cat free environment. Also, it seems that his stay should be temporary anyway so why disrupt the cats for a few months of free rent for him?
38
I have five cats -- and frankly I wish I had fewer. But taking them on when they were homeless was a commitment I made to them. You just give up anyone -- pets or people -- because someone who is temporarily out of a job is inconvenienced by it. He should be accommodating to those who are in the household (pets and people) and be grateful that they have made a place for him. There are allergy-eradicating machines, etc. that he can place in his space to reduce the discomfort. And why isn't the writer -- the kid's mother, I presume -- stepping up and caring for the grandson?
25
If the grandson has cat allergies HE needs to find a new place to live. Five cats do not a hoarder make, but one freeloading grandson can be more than an elderly lady is prepared to handle.
The 20-something woman with the supposedly sexist boss needs to outgrow her snowflake tendencies post haste. If she's too fragile to handle toned-down male rhetoric (try working in a motorcycle shop) perhaps she can make a career out of doing needlepoint at home.
Meanwhile, many other women will happily take over her job. Toughen up, buttercup!
33
In my long experience in the workplace, I've found that the best way to handle sexist and stupid behavior is to not give it the attention its owner is craving to receive. Smile and speak genuinely to those aspects of his behavior that you do like (if there are any)--he'll soon learn that he can't get a rouse out of you by negative behavior and comments.
If he pointedly baits you with a sexist question, again with a smile, tell him in a few unemotionally-framed words what you think and then ask him politely what his thoughts are on the subject--probably the whole reason he asked a question in the first place, just as an excuse to express his opinions.
Keep it short in responding to anything negative from him: that way you're freed-up to spend more of your time in creative and career-polishing work rather than fretting and being side-tracked by someone who sometimes doesn't deserve a response from you.
10
Cate, excellent comment. But . . . I can't resist putting my grammar/diction police hat on. "Rouse" is a verb. You don't "get a rouse" out of someone, you "get a rise" out of them. Intended to be constructive, not to take away from the thoughtfulness of your comment!
1
If the remarks this fellow made are sexist, then everyone is a sexist. It doesn't help to commingle seriously hostile atmospheres with innocent remarks like this. Time to grow up.
52
@ rob blake ny
Not being a beer drinker, all of the ordinary 5% alc by vol beer looks to me like urine of a pregnant cow. The only beer I can drink is a more alcoholic lager.
Do you really think that a company serving free =<5% beer is doing something wrong? Is not a dilute beer good thirst-quencher?
1
I think it's interesting that the writer of this column decries the behavior of the boss in the first part of the column because he makes negative comments about all the women in the office, etc. But in the second part of the column, he calls a woman "psychiatric" and "ill" because she likes to keep cats. (I mean really, look it up--gajillions of people keep cats in this country.) The article states that the grandson moved in with her for "financial reasons." What does that mean, he's broke? So she has to change the way she lives because he can't get a job? And be responsible for his own finances? How old is this grandson, anyway, I wonder. Is he a minor?
Who's demeaning women here?
56
@lucky13
Yes! Thanks for drawing the connection between the ethicist's two responses. A fragile 20-something young woman in the workplace mustn't be told someone thinks men are funnier than women. (An asinine opinion, but expressed offhand, not really damaging to her.) Any time she finds anyone disagreeable in the workplace, she must run to HR.
But an older, probably retired after a lifetime of working woman should not expect to have her own life, her own interests, choose who or what lives in her house, in short having any of her own agency - she must selflessly inconvenience herself for any family member who happens to need a free place to stay. I suppose she'll have to cook for him and do his laundry, too.
So young professional women must be coddled and protected and older women should just get on with things as they have always done, for them the ship has sailed, I guess.
21
I was disappointed in the response made to letter writer #1. A key issue was her boss not accepting her point of view over his. He must have more experience than her (likely a whole lot), its his responsibility to make the key decisions. Granted, he should hear the input from others, but there was no indication that he did not. Young subordinates can feel their ideas should be taken over their boss, and if not, feel disrespected - but the work place situation here is not like negotiating a night out with their friends.
While she provides no context, it is also possible that her take-down at a client meeting resulted from overtly disagreing with her bosses positions (stated or know ahead of time).
Were was the discussion the complexities of colleagues socializing vs. engaging in the work place. In context, I saw the bosses comments as being very tame. The fact that she does not get along with her boss might make her less tollerant. Regarding modern music videos, I am not personally bothered by their sexual tone, but I would never choose to show one at work, or company that I don't know well, without allowing for the fact that some might not embrace it. Yes, he was not happy with the video trend, and argued it too much, but I don't see how he was putting down woman in any way, and in any event, he apologized for overdoing it his argument.
I find it scary that the boss so negatively judged based on this narrative!
38
Why not move to another job in the company? Tell the boss and HR that you are eager to learn more about the company and to broaden your skills.
Why not have a quiet word with the boss after the next disturbing incident? (This should be about about his behavior and words, not your differing positions.) Tell him that his remarks bothered you and tell him why. Use an even tone, keep it brief, and consider saying "I like the work we do, but...."
Consider mentioning his daughters. They might be used to Dad, but I doubt that they would they want a supervisor with Dad's behavior.
5
It seems strange to me that Mr. Appiah would so readily accept writer no. 1's diagnosis of hoarding and then dedicate most of his reply to it, especially since the writer included no detailed information to demonstrate the grandmother is a hoarder.
26
Re the obnoxious boss/co-worker. Much has changed in the workplace during a rather short-time concerning what is acceptable between men and women who work together. Recognizing that this "gentleman" grew up in a different time and is not aware of today's behavior norms, may somewhat alleviate the lady's discomfort. I would not like to see this man fired, but if the personnel department had a program for older workers that pointed out their bad manners and unacceptable actions/comments in today's workplace, it would perhaps encourage them to keep their dated opinions to themselves.
2
The woman complaining about her supervisor seems to be going out of her way to find something to complain about. I suspect that few of us have had work places where supervisors never snapped at employees when they (the supervisors) were stressed. The employee thought the entertainer in the music video was admirable. The supervisor may have seen a barely clothed person who seemed untalented to him, therefore his remark that he'd prefer his daughters to be like his employees. Instead of overlooking the remark or taking it as a compliment, the letter writer took it as an insult to women in general, and even as harassment. She sounds extraordinarily thin-skinned. And why are these folks watching videos together? If the supervisor has made a mistake, it's being too buddy-buddy with the people under him. And I use "under him" deliberately and not in any sexual sense. The problem here may be that he isn't behaving in an authoritative manner, and the woman employee doesn't understand that he's supposed to. (And I mean authoritative, not authoritarian.)
43
Grandma gets to keep however many cats she wants ... and are legal in her state. Grandson knew about the cats before he moved in but he moved in anyway. If the family believed Grandma needed to change her lifestyle for him, well, take a breath and get a life. Why doesn’t he live with his parents?
I’ve never had 5 cats, but I’ve always had two. I never have broadloom for reasons of hair abatement and I dust and vacuum often. Five cats is not ‘hoarding’. 50 cats is.
I think it is outrageous that anyone would expect her to offload her cats so she can support her grandson.
42
This column needs to be renamed as "Dear Kwame." Judging by the tremendous response, it's very popular. But the content consists of the giving of situational advice and the comments tend towards sharing personal experiences. None of which have anything to do with ethics.
24
@JB
Agreed. Not only is the advice situational, the columnist overlooks contradictory and (deliberately) omitted information from the letter writers that negate his advice. The number of comments, however, can be attributed less to the popularity of the column than to the frustration w/the ill-conceived responses. Although I consider most comments to be insightful I skip anything that begins w/"my neighbor, boss, mother, brother-in-law, etc." because this isn't the place for additional & irrelevant personal stories. The subjects of the column are sufficient.
7
What on earth is the purpose of the job with respect to the complaint about the boss who doesn't understand the same definition of feminism as the complaining emloyee? She needs to get an education and a job which has a purpose. Nothing she says about her boss rises to the level of something which should generate a complaint to HR. She's the problem because her expectations of her job are entirely unrealistic and probably counterproductive (it's impossible to determine since both the boss and the employee seem to be under utilized. The woman who complains whould get therapy to help her understand why her realizations are so counter productive to personal, social, and professional success.
The cat lady should seek another famly member or a professional organization to take on the care and provide lodging for her allergic grandson. It sounds as though the poor young man is coming form an exceptionally incompetent and clueless family which hates cats.
30
Be prepared to lose your job if you go to HR. The ethicist may have ethics. But not all employers do. Employers may be aware of the perils of retaliation. But they may retaliate anyway. And get away with it. It happens all the time. HR doesn't work for employees, HR works for management. I think the ethicist's answer represents the ideal, and the right side of things. But still, be prepared to be pushed out if you go to HR.
And cut off that beer tap at work. Workplaces are getting way too casual.
13
It is very hard to find new homes for cats, and in shelters they might end up being culled.
16
I don't think a person should be expected to "give up" pets because an adult grandchild is having financial problems and moves in with her. I'm allergic to cats, so I don't have a bias in favor of them. However, I know people who aren't hoarders who have five cats. The woman's daughter considers the cats to be symptomatic of a hoarding disorder. That may or may not be true. But if the daughter is so concerned about her nephew (or is he her son?), why doesn't she disrupt her life and take him into her home? If I, with my cat allergy, had nowhere to go except to a relative's "home with cats," I certainly wouldn't expect him or her to part with their pets to accommodate me.
38
Cats and allergies can coexist; it helps to keep the cats totally out of the allergic person's bedroom and to vacuum/mop the rest of the house very frequently.
7
@mj Why should Granny have to do this?
17
@PrairieFlax She shouldn't. Complaining grandson should be dusting and vacuuming every day, but my bet is he's not lifting a finger to help with the housework. I know of a situation where a 60+ year old woman, living gratis with her 90-year-old mother, is complaining that her mother is a poor housekeeper, not vacuuming enough and not washing the fingerprints and smudges from the doors. So the sooner the cats help this grandson to move out and begin living independently, the better.
9
I have to say that I disagree with the ethicist on both of these. First, regardless of what laws are in place, going to HR is a last resort. As for her boss being a jerk - maybe, but his comments aren’t firing offenses and she is likely to get herself labeled as a trouble maker. Her boss may or may not be sexist- I can’t speak to that- but he’s at least open to apologizing. Perhaps some gentle comments to enlighten him as to her perspective would be a good start. But if you don’t like him don’t have drinks with him.
As for the cat lady, the grandson has a free place to live. Where is his mom by the way? Or dad? Grandma is doing him a favor and when he leaves she will be alone again. Why should she give up the animals she loves? And why not get a high performance hepa filter to help with the allergies? Perhaps they can negotiate a space for the cats that isn’t a common area temporarily. Bottom line is beggars can’t be choosers. He should be grateful to have a roof over his head, or get a job and his own place to live.
52
Maturity is when you can calmly communicate your concerns to another person who is annoying you. It is also possible to make a brief appointment to speak to your supervisor. However the idea of pursuing a legislative solution thwarting non-threatening boorish behavior is over-kill. In a democracy there should not be any laws against just being a jerk.
30
Leave Granny and her cats alone!
44
@PrairieFlax Right on!
5
I suggest that the grandson move in with the letter writer.
64
Letter writer #1 should realize her boss is her boss, not a drinking buddy. Quit socializing with the boss, it puts everyone in a difficult position. Smile and politely beg off. Hang out with your friends, not your boss. Be professional, do your job, and let the rest go. Company holiday party? Leave early before people get drunk and stupid. Nobody will remember you left early, but they will always remember who acted like a fool.
His at-work behavior may be awful at times, but in my experience going to HR is a mistake unless you are experiencing sexual or physical threats or abuse. HR works for management. Going to them for help is often less than helpful.
32
Re the boss, the woman is so crazy! The boss is saying he would like her daughters to be like her! That’s wrong? Women have become so uptight! Just reverse the whole story and pretend that he is a she and she is a he. What would anybody say then?
23
On the awful boss- I kept waiting for the lurid details, but, alas, there were none; only complaints that show a hyper- sensitive sense of being easily offended. Sorry, but most companies don’t have safe spaces or trigger warnings attached to potential bosses, and the rest of the claptrap that goes with protecting the hypersensitive from all forms of imagined injustice. The guy’s behavior is stupid and obnoxious, that is for certain. And as a dude, he is suspect by definition- privileged, unenlightened, the Oppressor. But, the complainer’s narrative is just as obnoxious- self righteousness mixed with victim-ology.
Get real and figure it out! Deliver results for your company. You are the one holding yourself back.
52
wow. I have two cats and am over 50. I guess I must be stubborn hoarder who hates my family.
I'm curious if the Ethicist would have been so insistent on getting rid of a beloved pets if they happened to be... dogs?
27
@mj I am wondering if the Ethicist has pets. When we take in dogs, cats or any other animals we make a commitment to them. Would the Ethicist re-home a child if he or she didn't get along with a new spouse or roommate?
24
If a woman employee shows a video of a sexy, scantily clothed, woman singing and dancing is that sexual harassment of the man by the woman?
37
Five cats is hardly ‘hoarding.’ What a ridiculous response. The grandkid’s been there for several years? Sounds like it’s time for him to move on. And for grandma to pet her purring cats and not have to deal with this kind of criticism.
31
Re: "Awful, Sexist Boss" Really? He said "Women are the future and should run the world....but men should still be in charge of entertainment". I don't understand why that statement is sexist. The reverse would be sexist with 'men running the world and women in charge of entertainment'. This 20 year old snowflake needs to prepare herself for the real world after she quits this 'awful, sexist' environment The company and the employee would be better off were she to depart this place of employment immediately.
Re the 'cat hoarder': her home is her castle, cats and all; the financially burdened grandson should move out an let his grandmother live in peace. Why isn't this man living with his mother rather than his grandmother?
31
@MA Harry
The statement is technically sexist, but it's really just too petty to bother much with. She should let it go. He isn't trying to impede her career advancement, he's just a bit silly.
7
Re Cats vs Grandson
Ridiculous. Why are women always expected to give up parts of their lives for family - especially when skipping generations? No mention of grandson’s parents or their responsibilities in this situation. If living with someone’s cats make you miserable, get your act together and move.
46
If I had a free loader move in with me, I'd get a dozen cats and maybe a goat or two in hopes it would get the leech to move out. I'm thinking the grandmom is more crafty than crazy.
34
@Jay "...get the leech to move out..." What makes you so sure he's a leech? There has been no indication that the grandson isn't working, isn't doing chores, isn't paying for food isn't contributing to utilities. Presumably, he had a financial problem and she made an offer of shelter and this may have been at a time when she had need of assistance. The only thing we know about him is that he's allergic, and he is getting medicine and shots to take care of the situation. That suggests that he has insurance or income to handle the situation.
The letter writer is the one who suggested getting rid of cats and lowering the number to one. It is possible that the letter writer has a one-bedroom apartment, so taking in the young man wouldn't work. Lot of possibilities.
1
What should letter writer no.1 do if it is actually the H.R. dept which is the problem? I've often wondered what should be done in such cases as the Ethicist's reply is so often to contact H.R.
3
No. 1 - get rid of the beer tap! No. 2 - there are NO BOUNDARIES for behavior. The blurred notion of "friends, bosses, socializing" during "work hours" is a recipe for DISASTER. Can't sympathize with either the woman or the guy. Someone needs to go in, clean house, separate work from fun, and Get rid of the ALCOHOL at work! Silicon Valley has created a playpen for stupid, unstructured behavior, and now everyone thinks it should be unstructured, forced playtime while working - it WON'T work - no "deliverables" there!
28
@BabsWC Great advice!
2
Perhaps LW2 should offer to take in the grandson (her nephew)
21
Re LW#1: The world is full of people who will say and do things that annoy us at some point or other. A work place has all the variety of a public bus. Human beings come from an almost infinite array of backgrounds and experiences. At some point we all say stupid things, we all make mistakes. Being hired to do a job does not guarantee that your work mates will all be people you like. They will not. As a woman myself who has worked all of my life I have made my share of mistakes, and endured others'. Yes, the world can be a disappointing place. No, you don't have to like everything. I am not in the least advocating that you ever suffer hateful remarks or sexual advances. I get it, you don't like him. He says clumsy things at times. And he has a temper when under pressure. Most people can point out such failings and worse in their own families. Dread of Thanksgiving family dinners is so common it's the stuff of jokes. We cannot report our family members to HR so we roll our eyes and move on. And do our best to keep ourselves cheerful by having a life outside of that that keeps us cheerful and feeling valuable. Practice forgiveness and keep good boundaries when socializing at work. Or find a desert island.
LW#2: Grandma doesn't owe you or her grandson a THING.
36
Letter writer #1 should hold onto her letter and reread it in a few years. She clearly doesn't understand her role in the workplace. I did not find any of the comments her boss made offensive or sexist. How is thinking men are funnier sexist? Just an opinion, kiddo. Also, many {most?} people who are stressed snap at people on occasion and - forgive me - perhaps this young woman is a key source of said stress when he must 'dig in' to defend his point of view. He IS the manager and while he should consider all points of view he should not have to endlessly defend a decision.
Like many other commenters, I cannot endorse a company who encourages the worker/friend environment between all levels of employees. It clearly has encouraged this young woman to think she is the equal of management. Additionally, the beer tap in the kitchen is trouble just waiting to happen, in my opinion.
Ethicist, this is one response I think you muffed. No worries, everybody gets one. lol
40
Let me get this straight....
You work for a company that has beer available to its employees during working hours?
That should be the very first sign that you're working for the wrong company.
35
Let's see. If daughter is unhappy because her mother won't get rid of her cats, why isn't daughter lunging forward to provide free room and board for grandson?
That's the moral, ethical thing to do.
33
This merging of travel/socialising/work and BEER echoes of Kavanaugh frat-life. Boss sounds like he drinks or drugs too much, apologising the following day for a rant is a classic sign of boozer regret. Its an unhealthy environment masked by phony fun-isms. You all need more separation between job and social life.
Ever think when we have universal health care in USA not tied to job how much easier things will be ...
14
About the awful boss.....does everyone need to be in total agreement on everything? Maybe no drinking at work (even open minded people come off bad). No joking - ever. It sounds like the employee is sensitive and cataloging every perceived slight. Learn to tactfully say something. Learn to use your voice. Everything is not worthy of HR complaint and workplace lawsuit.
I am surprised that The Ethicist didn’t take a step back when answering both questions today. 0/2
21
Is grandson an adult who asked to move in with grandmother for $ reasons? The way I read it, I believe he is, in which case there is no reason the grandmother should even have to consider getting rid of her beloved cats. She has already allowed him to move in, thereby sacrificing her personal her living space and privacy for two years, during which time he could save up funds and move to his own cat-free space. The daughter may be coming from a place of judgement re: the alleged “hoarding” that is causing her to over empathize with grandson. Maybe the daughter should ask the grandson to move in with her? 🙀
20
To the first LW: the ethicist went on a philosophical bender of the political and social changes in this country. But you sought and need concrete, pragmatic advice and didn't get it.
Your boss is a jerk and is not going to change. The company has a toxic dysfunctional culture. You need to get out before that damages you, psychologically and professionally.
Start very quietly searching for another job.
Find sympathetic coworkers or managers that will provide a good reference.
In interviews, do not trash the company, as tempting as it would be. State that the atmosphere was not conducive to advancing, at the most. Say that you are seeing better opportunities for learning in your field.
AND....immediately begin reading askamanager.com and search under "harassment", for starters.
8
Get another job or work for yourself.
10
LW1: Get real. If the jerk is your boss, you will not win this one. Keep your boundaries, get a life outside of work, make sure you have a chance to climb the ladder, or find a new job. Therapy may help you grow a thicker skin. We can expound all we want about good workplace environments, but there is still very little correction for "jerk" behavior, unless, of course, you are female.
15
As a health professional--and a cat lover--I've noticed that a lot of people who don't like cats use the excuse of being allergic to cats, to try to force others to give up their pets. You're allergic? Oh, really? Ever had a diagnosis for that from an Allergist, (not a GP trying not to lose his client by being agreeable)? The allergy diagnosis should involve pin pricks and documented skin reactions.
There's good evidence for the effectiveness of placebos, but the opposite is also well known: believe that a hated animal is causing your woes--and it will.
Also: even if you do happen to have a documented allergy, that doesn't give you the right to banish other peoples' pets from their own homes!
20
If I were in the shoes of letter writer #1, I would be looking for another job than put up with that putz of a boss. I agree with other commenters that expecting employees to socialize and drink with bosses is a recipe for trouble. This is all the more reason to look for a better position elsewhere. In letter#2, I do not think the grandmother with 5 cats is a hoarder. Many people I know have had up to 8 cats in their homes because they care about helping the feral cats around their neighborhood. As long as she is being a responsible pet owner, I see no valid reason for her to give up her cats even if the grandson living there is allergic. If the letter writer is so bothered by it, they need to be the one to help make other living arrangements for the allergic grandson.
14
While, generally, more than four cats, dogs, etc. is considered ready to cross the animal hoarding threshold, we and The Ethicist have no other real info regarding what the letter writer considers her mother’s hoarding behavior. I’m more interested to know why the financially strapped grandson has moved in with granny rather than his parents and just how long he plans to stay with her.
13
@Tiny Terror
"more than four cats, dogs, etc. is considered ready to cross the animal hoarding threshold"
What??? Where in the world did you get that idea? I know lots of people who have four or more animals. Loving animals is not a mental disorder.
11
@DW
Thank you. We live in an era in which those who make random, unsubstantiated statements expect to be believed as truth-tellers.
5
hmmm, is the allergic grandson the son of the writer? Seems like the author of the question might offer up her abode as residence if she feel she feels her mother isn't doing right by the grandson.
It's too easy for laymen to label people these days and, without more information. I don't think the writer's allegation that her mother is a "hoarder" should be taken at face value.
15
Call me hopelessly un-woke, but LW #1 objects to women entertainers doing what he believes set back feminism? So do I. He believes men are funnier than women?Well, he’s dead wrong but, seriously, this rises to the level of a complaint to HR ?? I find it grating when my right- leaning relatives claim that everyone is looking for a reason to be offended and going WAY overboard with “ Me Too”. Please don’t give them more ammunition just before The Holidays.
25
@Maggie Excuse me, that should read: “ the boss of LW#1”
1
No one would give up a pet, they are like children to the owners and maybe that's the real problem for the LW. I couldn't imagine even being asked to do so and would flatly refuse even for my grandchild. He chose to live with her, yet he is allergic to cats and probably has been his whole life. You are trying to force your mother to choose your son/you over her adopted pets. Why isn't your son living with you?
18
I usually agree with your ethics, but this time I completely disagree. In our extremely polarized society we never put ourselves in the other persons shoes anymore. The first case sounds like a disgruntled employee who simply doesn't like working for someone else. The point that the boss makes decisions based on his own opinion after listening to subordinates sounds like how business works. I don't think the writer would be any happier with a headstrong woman boss, but she wouldn't have the "me too" excuse for her attitude. I don't think I would like to work for, next to or under the writer. She wouldn't even listen to others opinions. She already knows it all. The rest just sounds like her personal dislike of her boss. He tried to give an off hand compliment about the women employees work ethic favorably compared to a celebrity performer & she took it as an insult to women. Who's over the top the boss or writer.
And part two. Poor old grandma must be nuts because she loves her pets??? Why doesn't the person writing in take the guy home & leave grandma alone. Judgement! Judgement! Judgement! You think Granny should give up her comfort cats, but perhaps the following month Junior may leave her in the lurch. What's the person who's writing in doing to help the poor old lady? Both these cases take the person writing in at their word without hearing the other side of the story & In my opinion the other side may have a lot to say before judgement should be passed.
31
Regarding letter writer #1:
She believes her boss is sexist, toxic? That she has legitimate grievances in the workplace?
I suggest she get a grip. From my perspective, as an *older woman* young women have a lot to celebrate -- the tremendous gains, the freedoms we've won, the sense of political and personal agency denied to previous generations. My generation did a lot of hard work, believing there was nothing we couldn't do, if we stuck together. Her complaints are counterproductive to forward movement...sure, there's still more to be done. But enough already with rhetoric and complaints like hers!
Hers is simply one more example in the growing collection of competing grievances, that do more to divide than to unite.
The Ethicist was off-base in his response this week.
23
Writer #1, up date your resume, look for another job, have that offer in hand, THEN report your boss. Your company is dangerously loose and it is almost a certainty that your complaint will get back to your boss with your name attached. Based on the company atmosphere you describe, even if you are not let go, you will be sidelined. I would suggest moving on.
6
@Anon Thank you for adding a much needed perspective. I regret the Ethicist did not. As much as I understand the issues surrounding the boss’ lack of emotional intelligence, I couldn’t help thinking that mutual responsibility is in play here. The young woman can praise a most likely attractive female singer but the boss can’t say that he admires young, intelligent women. Where is the world headed? We are teaching bots and robots emotions as we seem to be headed towards a sterile work environment. As for who is “funnier”, may I suggest you take your work seriously and not yourself. I coach global senior level executives and there is such fear when they are expatriated to America. Walking on eggshells for anyone is not how you create an engaged corporate culture. Clarity in communication and well-defined boundaries need to be expressed by all whatever your gender.
14
LW 1 would best use her energy and time looking for ways to use her professional talents to move up or latterly in her company while looking for a better position with another company. Be patient and don’t rock the boat. Your boss might be a jerk sometimes but complaining about him will not help you or him. Use this time as an opportunity to make yourself the most professional and competent person you can be and better jobs will become available to you.
9
Re #1 if this is an "awful" boss that HR should must do something about, then the future of work in America is on shaky ground.
Let's address serious problems of sexism (and other isms), before hollowing out our workforce by eliminating those who act as noted in the present complaint.
16
HR barely human, never resourceful.
8
Regarding the first situation that of a hostile work environment; yes the guy is a pig and needs to be reported. In addition the loose work environment of beer on tap is disconcerting. Alcohol and work just don't mix well, never have; it encourages an intimacy which does not need to exist and is probably fueling the hostility. Re: the second situation. I've had five cats myself one time; some were strays some were my daughters who moved into a place that would not accept pets so I took them as I had a large home and yard and money to support them and I happen to like cats. I tend to dispose of things easily so don't have multiples of much with the exception of bowls. (Make whatever you want of that). My point is that grandma has her own life and can have five cats if she wants as long as she takes care of them. Her grandchild is not her responsibility; her cats are. Perhaps her daughter should take the cats and care for them in order to repay her mother for her generosity toward her family?
7
Their personalities clash. She is ageist and sexist also. They simply spend too much time together and in situations that are not strictly professional. The boss is unlikable but believe me, not that bad. Not that bad at all. She needs time to grow up and experience many different types of people in the workplace and life. Grow thicker skin. A lot of us have experienced real sexual harassment and extreme discomfort at work -- severe bullying, fear and the like. From another feminist reader.
19
My wife and I have eight indoor cats, one of which came from a. woman with 200. That was a hoarder. What other symptoms of hoarding does this woman have?
Multiple animals do not a hoarder make. I won't ask about the ethics of dumping companion animals or failure to spay and neuter them....
As for LW#1, while I have been retired for some time, in the early 1990s, we were discussing what to do with gropers and there were all women law firms specializing in this area. Perhaps talking to one of them might open up a viable option.
Stay away from combined alcohol and work functions. It is healthier for you in many different ways.
5
To me the huge red flag is "work-life merge space". Good grief, a beer tap in the kitchen? All of this, "hanging out as a team" ? The water is so muddied how can you tell what is inappropriate work behavior and just party behavior?
No wonder you're confused about what to say. What a mess. Even if you can get rid of this person, you'll still be left with an invasive work environment. If that can't change, I'd find a better company.
18
My first job out of college was working for a woman (I am also a woman) who screamed at and berated her employees in front of clients. The first time it happened to me I was deeply shaken. After crying and pulling myself together in the restroom, I asked to speak with her privately. I explained that I felt demeaned and disrespected, and asked that she not do it again. I didn't 'call out' publicly or elevate the situation. I gave her the opportunity to self correct. She wasn't the 'perfect' boss afterward but she stopped the tantrums and vitriol.
My rule of thumb has always been 'does this rise to the level where I want to have a difficult conversation with that person about it?' If not, I let it go (which also means not gossiping about it). If so, I strategize about how best to handle it, which may include discussing the situation with trusted mentors.
Interacting with others is messy and none of us are perfect. If we are constantly on high alert worried about hurting others or being hurt, we are in a place without psychological safety.
I've been on both ends of this situation -- hurt by really biased comments and said really bone-headed ones that exposed my own bias. When at the receiving end, I try to focus on the intent and give the person the benefit of doubt. When I've said or done something stupid, I focus on the impact my words had, try to uncover and examine my underlying bias, and vow to do better. We are all doing the best we can, and sometimes we fall short.
16
For letter writer #1 -- This scenario tells me we have come a long way since I was in my 20s, when any drinking scenario came with unsavory propositions. And sexual favors were often requested for job promotions or even for budget approvals. It was a daily struggle. Here's my advice: don't drink and cavort with a man who has power over you. If you are truly uncomfortable, report him. Sometimes it only takes a sit-down. As for granny and her cats, I will have to say tough darts junior. Though there appears to be some missing context, she is under no obligation to get rid of her furry family for you. And the idea that she is sick or a hoarder for having 5 cats does not compute. It might be three too many for me. but I don't judge people and their animals.
9
The cat lady seems to be doing her grandson a favor. I’m assuming she choose to take him in to her home but not instead of her cats. Is he a minor? If so and he has no other family capable of filling in then maybe she could be persuaded to cut down on the cats. If he is an adult he is lucky to be allowed to stay there with the cats and when his financial situation changes he can find a room in an apt or house without cats
9
Kwame, I think you missed an important assessment for the young woman with the bad boss. Yes, there's a power imbalance. Yes, HR should know about the offensive behavior. AND, the situation is an important one for her learning to stand for herself, to respectfully decline to participate in demeaning conversations. Any competent HR manager should back her and protect against retribution.
1
The boss in question simply tries to exist and coexist in an environment in which the goalposts of behavior have been moved without him being informed and are being moved daily.
None of the remarks cited reveal or even hint at hostile or sexist INTENT.
Since intent does not seem to matter any longer, how can we coexist?
12
Sounds to me that the grandson should be rehomed. Cats are wonderful creatures, grandsons less so.
18
According to my ex who worked a large chunk of her career in HR, the number one reason people in the USA quit their jobs is because they can't stand their boss or supervisor. This piece amply demonstrates how that can be.
An aside. The number one reason people are fired from their jobs is attendance: showing up late, not showing up (no-call, no show), and general absenteeism (multiple questionable sick days on only Mondays and Fridays and before and after longer paid and unpaid vacations).
Many of us have had bosses like that. They don't change, period! Basically, she has a couple of choices, change her boss or leave the company. The HE department will probably talk to him but it won't matter, they don't change, so buckle up and move on.
3
Re LW #2: the grandmother did her grandson a favor. If it didn't work out for him, it's up to him to get his life together and find another place to live. Her initial kindness should not be punished by the demand that she give up her cats so he can live there indefinitely.
20
Ethicist, you have missed the mark with regards to the cats. Grandma is not obligated to take her grandson in, and more importantly, her grandson knew exactly what he was getting into when he asked to move in. Expecting Grandma to give up her cats is not acceptable OR compassionate, especially since, as other readers have pointed out, it is difficult to rehome cats and if they are taken to shelters there is a high probability that they will end up being euthanized.
16
I couldn’t even begin to comment on the workplace issue without meeting the complainant. There were far too many issues with her prose to address without more information.
As an animal rescuer I can certainly speak to the cats versus grandson issue. Those cats have very few options and 5 is definitely not a hoarding situation. Why doesn’t the financially strapped grandson move back in with mommy, since she’s concerned enough about his allergies to displace 5 innocent pets. Poor grandma. SHE needs to be rescued into a better family!
23
According to letter writer #1, her boss says that he wants his daughter to “be like” the two women who work for him. That means she must be doing something right, even if her boss is too much of a boor to express it appropriately. It also sounds like he’s someone HR could work with to improve, once he realizes that he is, in fact, creating a hostile work environment. HR can use his feelings for his daughter to tap into whatever empathy he can find. It’s amazing how many things can get better when the men who used to be obstacles watch their daughters struggle with the barriers they’ve erected.
Despite my screenname, I think it's fair to defend grandma. She had the cats before she had the grandson, after all. My husband and I only have two cats now, but we've had as many as four at one time. Yes, five is a lot of cats, but so what, she wasn't hurting anybody.
13
Maybe Grandma simply loves her cats and doesn't want to give them up. I seriously doubt the grandson moving in was exactly Plan A for her at this point in her life and expecting her to give up her pets in addition to the other sacrifices she has had to make to deal with having to board/raise her grandson takes a lot for granted. And it seems very presumptuous to assume a women taking in and caring for cats is a hoarder, five cats isn't twenty. I don't understand why the Ethicist seems willing to take that as a given.
31
Five cats does not a hoarder make. Are the cats neutered? Are they properly cared for? Has mom taken in more cats? I have cats and quite frankly we think of them as family. I would not be willing to re-home my feline kids to take in a grandchild who will be a temporary resident. The writer of this letter sounds like someone who does not have pets and does not understand the relationship between pet parents and their furry kids.
21
You work closely with a team headed by a man who sometimes speaks snd acts offensively but seemingly did nothing that would get him fired if it was brought to the attention of higher ups in the company. The atmosphere there which includes free beer on tap at work seems very loose which may foster behavior over the blurred line. If you could find another suitable job in a more traditional professional environment I’d say go for it. Until then try and limit conversation and contact to only work related matters as much as possible. If that doesn’t work going to HR might but as likely as not you’d be seen as the one causing problems unless others in the group had similar complaints and were willing to join you.
9
RE: the cat hoarder.. 5 cats does not make a hoarder. and since the writer isn't writing about the other hoarding habits, i can't judge her as a hoarder based on FIVE cats. 15 cats.. maybe .but not 5.
the grandmother is letting her grandchild move in with HER. if he doesn't like the cats and because he's allergic, perhaps he should move out with his Mother instead. or someone else. he knew grandma had 5 cats before he so willingly took her up on her generosity.
52
Re the cats and the allergic grandson, I question the "Two years later, her grandson needed to move in with her for financial reasons." I'd stop the conversation right there and ask how old is this grandson, why is he in financial straits, what is the prognosis for how and when he'll get out of them, and where are his parents, aunts and uncles? Why grandma?
63
@Pam
Yes, "needed to move in with her" conveys a certain sense of entitlement, as if obviously when he says he "needs" to do so, she would be automatically willing. Wait right there ...
10
There really isn't enough information in the letter about "granmma"s cats" to truly give a good answer. How old is the grandson? does he have a job or is he in between jobs? is this a permanent arrangement? Based on the information given, the cats were there before him and there is an emotional bond between gramma and cats. When it comes to animals there is a special bond and people are so quick to judge it as a hoarding situation when 5 cats are hardly that at all. Was this grandson always quick to help his grandmother out with chores and company? If he doesn't like having to take meds, he can leave. After his situation changes for the better, will he continue to be a companion for his grandmother? The grandson is short term, the cats are here for the long haul and will be long after the grandson has moved on. It would be horrible for her to have to find homes for the cats only to have the grandson move out sooner than expected and what will she have, no company whether feline or human. Perhaps the daughter and grandson need counseling to get out of their own "rut".
43
Re-cats: Obviously, other fam members could take in "kid", who I assume is really an adult with an issue, possibly severe, possibly not, who can't or won't take steps to take care of himself.
My beloved sister, who lived a days drive away, had a cat, to which my daughter and I were seriously allergic, including asthma attacks. Our nephew had similar problems. When visiting her we slept in her 1/2 finished basement and sat only on hard chairs. True, we could have stayed in a hotel, which would have limited the frequency of our visits. When she replaced carpets with wood floors, our symptoms substantially improved. When her cat died, she chose not to replace it, partially to accomodate her extended family. Prior to that, tho I'm sure we complained, we never demanded she get rid of her cat.
16
“Everyone knows the difference between bosses who are simply demanding — even abrasively so — and bosses who abase, demean and humiliate employees simply because they can.”
Defending behavior that falls into the first category is understandable, and calling someone who complains about being pushed by their boss a “snowflake” is harsh but not unfair. Defending behavior that clearly falls into the second category? Defending male behavior that clearly falls into the second category? It’s not #metoo status, but why not recognize this as an opportunity to shape a better status quo? Why are so many commenters (men and women) resistant to that idea out of hand?
1
Does the fact that you talked all around that employee indicate there is no answer?? Thanks
3
WIth regard to the "horrible boss", not trusting my own instincts I asked my wife what she thought and she immediately said the writer should "lighten up".
The Ethicist answered her plaint with a rambling discourse that ended up just preaching and answering nothing at all.
89
With regard to the second letter : "re-homing" cats, especially cats that are older than kittens, is in a huge percentage of cases nothing but a euphemism. Short of miraculously finding one or a few individuals who crave the company of cats but don't have any, there is no "re-homing"; there is euthanasia. Now for some strange reason people who love animals enough to take them in as strays and form bonds with them just find it difficult to murder them in order to accommodate a temporary boarder, even if that boarder is a family member.
74
Seems the main problem for letter writer #1 may be the loosey-goosey work environment where employees are expected to socialize -- and drink! -- with bosses. That's a recipe for disaster. The best bosses I've ever had all had policies of never socializing with staff except in rare circumstances (Christmas parties, the occasional wedding, etc.) and didn't drink in those rare circumstances. It's a good policy.
595
@Rupert
I agree. Office environments can become stifling when employees are expected or required to socialize in many ways that may define an office culture. Examples include signing cards for co-workers who are going on vacation, out sick, etc., doing Secret Santa or Ugly Christmas Sweater contests, going camping, pot lucks, all kinds of parties or outside events, being asked to pray as a group for someone out sick, having lists of everyone's birthday publicly displayed on the wall in the boss's office and the obligatory cake on that special day with singing, making the one break on deadline into an obligatory staff "meeting", and on and on.
Been there, done that. Once, whien I was asked to sign a card congratulating someone for getting married, I refused and said: "I didn't know that she wasn't married!" "I didn't know she was engaged." Sounds silly. Once I worked in an office where there were many part-timers. People told me at the Secret Santa gathering (which I didn't participate in) that they had bought presents for co-workers who they had never met and they didn't know who they were.
Team-building is a good thing. But it should be done with sensitivity to workers' privacy and their desire to remain business-like in a work environment.
37
@lucky13
I think your own response is over the top. Let's not go to the other extreme and decide to be offended if asked to sign a birthday card. Some recognition of each other as human beings in the workplace is normal and, you know, how we manage to have a civilization.
25
I'm a little suspicious of the "hoarding" comment. Could be true, but plenty of people have several cats. Depending on her living space, 5 doesn't seem like an outrageous number. You often hear of dozens and dozens of animals being rescued from a true hoarding situation.
I think grandma should be able to choose the company she keeps in her own home. She already raised her kids but now she's expected to banish her pets to provide free room and board to a grandchild? When has she done enough?
724
@Esq. At one point I had 7 cats and a dog. Okay five were kittens of the other two and homes were found for them. If the grandmother were a hoarder, she would have many more. One does have to ask where are the parents or siblings in all this. There seems to be too much jumping to conclusions by both the writer and KAA.
48
I am baffled by The Ethicist's comment: "In ordinary circumstances, your mother would find these cats new homes if her grandchild's heath required it."
This suggestion is naive and extraordinarily unsympathetic. It is not an easy task to find 5 cats new homes, it is very difficult to find 1 cat a new home. It is an easy task, however, to take multiple cats to a city or county animal shelter, where they would be euthanized in 1-3 days if not adopted. Grandma clearly is attached to her pets, and the lack of empathy for Grandma and her furry friends from her daughter and The Ethicist is extremely disheartening.
820
@db cooper You are absolutely right about rehoming 4-legged pets. Essentially impossible to find a home for one. Kwame - you need to understand this.
50
@db cooper Speaking as an elderly woman, I am appalled that Grandma is getting no sympathy. It isn’t easy to give up privacy and routines to accommodate a grandchild. And then to be expected to give up her pets, too! My inclination would be to let the kid find his own place, if hers doesn’t suit.
126
@db cooper , grandma may be a hoarder with a soft heart, but lets not forget she also took in the stray, adult grandkid - "her grandson needed to move in with her for financial reasons." Relatives need to step in a and kick out the freeloader, for his own good - his health might improve and he might get a girlfriend.
64
The first letter writer needs to get some perspective. She wants to report her boss to HR because he once said that men are funnier than woman? Because he said that he wants his daughters to emulate her, the career woman? My reaction to this letter was, my god, the world must be a better place if this is what 20-somethings find to be major trauma these days. I kept reading, waiting for the part where the boss hits on her, or gives promotions to employees who sleep with him, or denies women promotions in favor of unqualified men, or tells dirty jokes in the office, and there's ... nothing. No sexual comments, no workplace consequences, no unfairness. Just that she doesn't like it when her boss "snaps" at people.
Women of America no longer in our 20's should read that and weep with gratitude for how much life has improved since our day. I say this as a woman and a feminist and someone whose entire life has been spent opening metaphorical doors for the women who came after me. It seems the doors are now wide open if these are the biggest complaints anyone has. KAA was wrong on this one.
Yes, your boss has power, that's why he (or she) is called a boss. And you won't like everyone at your workplace. Learn to get friends outside your work and be happy that you're being treated fairly and as a professional.
1072
@Anon, I agree completely.
I could not help noticing that the writer, in beginning with the statement that her boss is “significantly older” than her twenty-something self, is ageist.
It would have been helpful for The Ethicist to acknowledge that the writer, too, must not indulge in generalizations based on immutable characteristics.
255
FANTASTIC COMMENT. Chapeau!
88
@Anon YES! YES! YES! And why the Ethicist didn't pick up on any of this is disturbing to me.
180
That first answer was so long-winded, boring and unhelpful, I could barely hang around til the end. You may be a professional ethicist, but as a newspaper columnist, you are also required to be entertaining. Please work harder on that part of your job.
35
LW2: If you have a problem with the grandson dealing with cats (his own choice), then offer up your own home. It's really none of your business otherwise.
99
@Caroline Best answer! It annoys me when adult children or their offspring move in and want to rule the nest.
4
Both letter writers need to get over themselves.
1- your boss doesn’t sound like a sexist awful person. The world is full of people who we wouldn’t choose to work with if we could handpick; learn to be a professional and see it as a learning opportunity, which it is. (Or get a new job, though I am sure similar complaints will come up, we take ourselves with us wherever we go). Oh, and I am a female professional in her 30s in a heavily male-dominated industry.
2- leave grandma alone. It’s her house and her cats. You want to do something? Take in the grandson yourself.
Usually I respect the Ethicist’s assessments and advice but I think he missed the boat this week.
155
There’s a reason this guy is the boss, perhaps he’s a friend of the owner or he brings in a lot of money. Complaining about him will likely make you seem like the problem. Either sue the company for enough money to retire on or quit and find another job where everybody shares your beliefs. Often people in their 20s have an outsized belief that the workplace is fair and loving and coworkers are like family. They are crushed when they realize how transactional work really is.
The second letter made me wonder if granny didn’t want the couch surfer to get too comfortable.
34
@Rick The merging of socialising with work encourages this belief. They are also led to think they are more valuable than they really are and so are surprised when their job category gets eliminated.
2
People don’t seem to realize that pet allergies, particularly those severe enough to warrant shots on top of medication, are a severe health issue that can lead to anaphylaxis and death. My older brother and I are both severely allergic to cats. My brother’s cat allergies developed when he was 8. At the time, my mom owned two cats. She sent them both to live with her parents in Florida, and didn’t think twice about it. Her choices were get rid of the cats, or subject her son to potentially lethal living conditions on a daily basis. Would you do that to your child? Would you knowingly subject them to a life-threatening allergen on a daily basis when you had the ability to remove that threat from their lives? Why should the happiness of one’s pet be more important than the health of a family member?
I agree that in the case addressed in this letter, there is lots of information missing and it sounds like there may be more going on here than the letter writer has chosen to share. However, as someone who suffers from a severe cat allergy, I find the number of dismissive comments regarding a real health condition with potentially fatal consequences infuriating.
3
@Carla
Which would all make perfect sense if we were talking about a child, but this is an adult. An adult doesn't have a right to move into someone else's home and demand that they get rid of their pets. It's her home, it's that simple. If he's allergic he needs to live somewhere else.
98
@Carla
It's the grandson's "choice" to live w/his grandmother & her 5 cats according to LW2. He sees a doctor & is compliant w/his medication. If he's concerned about fatal consequences, then he should move. He apparently has options given his living arrangements are "his choice."
48
@Carla This person is not a child and this woman is his grandmother, not his mother. Had I been faced with such a choice as your mother faced when my son was a child I too would have found another home for our cats. That is not the case here and demanding that the grandmother give up her pets for an adult grandchild is just wrong.
6
The chutzpah of LW1 is staggering. The company has implemented the "work-life merge space" throughout its offices. She finds it "frustrating" & wants her boss, the office, & the company to change. The advice to go to HR is absurd. HR IS the company; it's not going to overturn perfectly legal operational decisions. She needs to go. There are plenty of traditional employers w/o beer on tap.
59
Re LW1: abuse of authority? A lawsuit waiting to happen? Seriously? I read this letter three times and all I see is a boorish, somewhat clueless man in charge and a young woman who doesn’t seem to understand what it means to have a boss and be someone’s subordinate. Granted, the unfortunate workplace culture here promotes quasi-social encounters that may turn out to be unpleasant, but what is unpleasant is not necessarily actionable or even objectively inappropriate. Buck up.
89
I wonder why Grandchild chose his grandmother to live with rather than a parent or a friend. Does Grandchild have a job? Do they live in an area where housing costs are high and supply low? Is Grandchild involved in a divorce, maybe out on parole? Is Grandma really a hoarder or does she just have a lifetime's worth of possessions? There is simply not enough information in the letter to justify the conclusions of some of the commenters.
48
You don’t move in with someone, then demand they get rid of their pets. The pets were there first.
121
@Jennifer
Agreed, but it's not the grandson who's making a demand. He "chose" to live w/his grandmother & cats despite his allergies. It's LW2 who despite paying lip service that it's the grandson's "choice" & the grandmother's home, is labeling her mother a "hoarder, unethical, w/a lack of compassion."
30
Letter writer 1: I don’t think you are going to change your workplace culture. Look for another job that is a better fit. Until then, try to laugh at the quirkinesses and learn as many transferable skills as you can.
48
LW1 says she "I put on a video in which a female pop singer looks amazing and does a lot of dancing".
If you don't like your boss's attitudes and beliefs regarding women, then why in the world select a video likely to provoke such a reaction from your boss? You just undercut your arguments for a discussion with HR.
Age, BTW, has nothing to do with sexist attitudes. Some of the worst I have run into have been in their 20s and 30s. If this is the culture of the company, get out while the going is good. It does, however, have to do with a power structure of mostly men in management who have been with the company for years and represent significant investment.
HR will protect, not fairly investigate, a long-time employee in management. Their own careers are predicated on successfully serving management. If you think this doesn't include knowing what temperament and gender a manager is likely to hire you are very much mistaken.
HR's mission is to provide a commodity (people) at the best going rate, and to protect the company from lawsuits. They certainly do NOT care about the comfort and well-being of people not in the power structure.
Find a better company to work for. The perks are nice, but really aren't why you are working there.
31
@ms
Actually, in the large, global energy company from which I retired (and where I worked in HR), protecting the company from lawsuits WAS one of HR's most important functions. You are simply wrong in your statement about that aspect of HR when you apply it generally to all companies.
I do agree (and I think a lot of HR professionals would agree) with most commenters that the LW's complaints seem immature and vague and show an unrealistic expectation that her managers measure up exactly to her expectations of perfect human beings. The boss sounds like a bit of a jerk, but I'm sure a lot of us have had a LOT worse.
32
I question whether or not grandmother has a hoarding disorder. Feeding a small colony of stray cats is not uncommon among people who simply care of animals - half my neighborhood, including myself, do so and participate in catch and release. Five cats does not a hoarding disorder make. What else? And beyond grandson's needs how are GM's behaviors interfering with her functioning? If GM has a hoarding disorder it's difficult to believe there would be room for grandson to move in and issues beyond the cats that would have already driven him to find another location. If the strays are now living in her home, they are pets. Grandmother has already raised children and is entitled to prioritize their companionship, which is relatively uncomplicated and truly free of judgment. I noticed that LW didn't mention the option of her son living with her. Perhaps it's easier to focus on GM as the source of the problem and not the grandson's choices or his relationship with LW.
65
It sounds like the writer in the first letter works in a place where professional and personal lives are expected to overlap. This can blur the lines between illegal and merely poor taste: comments that we accept, and even laugh at, in our private lives can be quite unacceptable in the workplace.
I prefer to work in a place where socializing with one's colleagues is not mandatory, and I think a beer tap in the kitchen is one of the most unprofessional things I have ever heard of.
62
@Rural Farmer
I once worked in a good-sized PR agency owned by one hard-edged self-made alpha male, who kept booze in his office and invited employees to drink with him. Being invited was considered (by him) an honor --- and a command.
As a recovering alcoholic, I had to do some fancy dancing to get out of having a drink with him after hours.
Fridays were the worst; he would break out the bottle(s) and expect his staff, who all had families etc. waiting (and who needed to get in their cars and drive home!!!) to hang around and listen to him wax eloquent about his experience and wisdom.
This was an abusive boss to the max (I wondered how his boozing influenced his overbearing personality). I once heard him, in a meeting rake a young man over the coals for an inadvertent error in contacting a client. He was absolutely vicious and the error was minor and understandable.
What still bothers me is that we, the ten or so other employees in the bordroom, just sat there like a bunch of lily-livered "Good Germans," and nobody spoke up to defend this poor man or challenge the boss's utterly inappropriate ad hominem attack.
I vowed never to "collaborate" like that again in abuse, no matter what the consequences. I will rise up and take on the bully, I vowed. I have done it only once, but the results were gratitude and respect from my colleagues, and the bully backed down. (But Bully #2 was nowhere near as toxic and sociopathic as Bully #1).
5
Young lady in your twenties: your boss does not have a problem, YOU have a problem. The fact that you are worried about coming up with "precise accusations" against your boss means you have none.
145
Keep the cats. Get rid of the mooching grandson. Easy. And I bet she’s not a hoarder just being portrayed as one to keep the mooching grandkid in place
77
Yikes, all these "that boss sounds kind of annoying but basically normal" comments make me terrified to ever work at a business in the US!
18
Before you go trashing this man’s career, while not speak up? He sounds like he respects people enough to be direct and transparent and he’s obviously grappling with this issue. Illuminate him. You might just impress him with your maturity.
16
@Gwe Yes- won't somebody please, please think of the men for once!
It sounds like he does not want to be illuminated. She and a colleague tried to introduce him to third wave feminism and he got upset. Let's start to care as much about women's work environments as we do about men and their careers (which, by the way, have come out unscathed nearly all of the time, notwithstanding some high-profile Me Too cases).
11
"When he gets stressed, however, he has temper tantrums, snaps at people and digs in to defend his positions, rejecting all opposing points of view. This behavior is unpleasant, especially when it’s directed at me."
Oh dear...
Thank goodness you're not entrusted with any government secrets. Because, it seems clear to me that you'd give them up in less than a second if the coffee in the interrogation room was even slightly above optimal temperature. Or worse, was more than 20 minutes old.
Please, for the sake of humanity, get a grip.
82
"The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission states on its website that it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.” That is only true if your company has more than 15 employees. If your company has less than 15 employees, your boss can grope you, harass you, stalk you, and more without fear of legal ramifications.
6
@Catgirl : That's only the federal law - it limits the people who can file claims under it. But there are many other legal remedies, e.g., state laws, tort laws, small claims acts. Your boss cannot do any such things with impunity.
9
@JB Not all states have laws against sexual harassment. If you happen to live in a state that doesn't protect its workers, you can take your boss to court for sexual assault (not harassment) if you can prove it. Sadly, some bosses actually can behave in a way that the federal government considers illegal and get away with it.
Clearly the Company does not provide enough structure and nor does it carefully think about the ramifications that poses. It's management, in this case a Manager doesn't seem to abide by or have a corporate code of conduct in the work place. His subordinates are vulnerable in a team environment that they work, travel and socialize. Alcohol is splashed all over this story and that unto itself is troubling. Clearly this young woman should contact her own attorney as I don't believe her organization has an HR department in the traditional sense - perhaps it's the owner or outsourced to a Law firm if necessary. Clearly she is in a toxic environment and need to address her escalating abused heaped onto her, asap.
3
@Voter
On the contrary, the work-life merge/team structure, including beer on tap, is an accepted legal organizational practice in a variety of fields from tech to media to architecture. LW1 indicates it's not uncommon in her field. She has no valid complaint.
11
I am with the grandmother. The grandson is a temporary guest in her home. (Perhaps his parents could take on the cats while he lives with the grandmother, and return them when he gets back on his feet. They should probably get professional cleaners in after the cats leave.) I suspect isms are at play -- old people don't really have needs, and women are required to forgo anything at the drop of a hat when a "child" needs are involved. ON THE OTHER HAND, if the kid is really fragile, the grandmother might consider taking him on as something more than a boarder -- he could be a life project. If she succeeds he will be a greater comfort to her than the cats -- his life expectancy is likely longer -- and she will have done a major good deed. Either way, I am with the grandmother.
20
@MBS You can't speak on behalf of the grandmother "if she succeeds he will be a greater comfort to her than the cats". It seems to me is that the author expects the grandmother to "enable" a man who for some unknown reason ran into financial (and possibly other) trouble.
And... "a life project". The article does not state her exact age - but life project. Most people especially of the generation I grew up in, were expected to leave the house when they were of age. There are friends and others who can take up the slack when we fall through cracks. Why is the grandson not choosing other options such as living with his mother even if it is in another state? What caused him to be financially not able to provide for himself? Would he be expected to provide assistance in exchange for his room and board?
One solution if amenable to all and the property allows it is to build a small "grandmas" house in the back or convert the garage and he can live in that, with the contention that he work at what ever is needed, to either pay for the project or repay it (perhaps his parents can provide the money for that) and pay his own utilities, garbage and other needs.
1
To letter 1. If it's important to you then take it to HR. Get it said. But don't be surprised if there are two sides to every story. Just because you believe it to be true doesn't mean that it is, and you could find that when viewed through a different prism, that others see it differently.
To letter 2.
I have two cats, and find five to be a bit much. But they don't talk back and they keep me from being lonely. The ethical question would seem to hinge on the age of the grandson. By implication he is an adult, and barring some unmentioned complication, why would the grandmother need to upend her life to provide him living space? If it is a short term solution, then his accommodation to her furry companions would not seem to be uncalled for. And the fact of her refusal could be a marker for her desire to keep it short term.
27
If LW#2 took in five cats in need two years ago and that number hasn't gone up since then, then the grandmother isn't a hoarder.
The writer's judgment that the wellbeing of the grandson supercedes that of the cats is out of line and inhumane. The grandson has far more resources available to help him should he move out than the cats ever will.
It speaks to the writer's unspoken and unearned sense of entitlement in judging how a household they aren't a part of should be managed. If the writer were my child, they'd be booted out and told not to return until they get their head on straight.
70
I am highly allergic to cats and a cluttered home with 5 cats would be intolerable for 15 minutes. Even if grandma got rid of the cats, the clutter makes getting rid of the dander impossible. Grandson needs a new situation and grandma needs some help.
2
Um why does this matter?
6
@Deirdre Just because LW2 says her mother is a hoarder doesn't mean she is. Speculating about depression and dementia seems premature as well, given that no actual diagnostic indicators were identified. The cats may only be a problem for Brandon and LW2, who you may have noticed said nothing about her son moving back in with her. There is more to this story than we are being told. I got no sense of any concern for the grandmother emotional well-being or functioning; if she actually had a hoarding disorder, that would be the pressing issue.
28
@Deirdre So the writer and you and others with that view are suddenly professionals in the field? Even professionals can not diagnose without certain tests.
The writer seems slanted and biased in her reply - perhaps she should put up the child not the grandmother.
6
Before my retirement as a corporate exec, I hired all types of people: male, female, gay, straight, various ethnicities.
But I always felt I was walking on eggshells with a few of the female staff members.
And then I decided I wasn’t going to hire women anymore. I wanted to be able to blow off steam, curse, and say anything I wanted, without having to worry about hurt feelings and HR reports. I guess that makes me an old relic.
I remember one male employee, Asian background. He was excellent, helpful, smart as a whip. One morning, he probably hadn’t had his coffee yet, and he offered a really dumb suggestion about an accounting procedure. I said, “What, did you take stupid pills this morning?!” We both burst out laughing. No harm intended, no harm done. We still keep in touch years later on social media. If he’d been a woman, I would’ve been fired.
23
I’ll turn myself into the police at the first opportunity!
8
@David G
Very funny. You're unaware that sex discrimination is illegal? Gee, it's only been a few decades. We'll wake you when it's over.
17
@David G You decided that instead of not being an unpleasant person in the office, you'd just stop hiring women? Typical.
9
I have to agree with all the comments here where people are flummoxed as to what the big deal was for the woman who is troubled by what her boss has to say on occasion. Will the Ethicist issue a maya culpa? I think the #MeToo movement has gotten such a hold of him, that he went completely overboard with his opinions regarding the behavior of this woman’s boss. If you read the Ethicist’s reply to the letter-writer before you actually read her letter, one would think she was dealing with a Harvey Weinstein clone. By all means let’s tar and feather this boss because he had the audacity to say he thought men are better suited than women to be comedians!
61
@David T Yes, one could have replied, that's your opinion and leave it at that, or add to it. I find many female comedians especially funny. And who knows what he really meant. In is older (as I am) and perhaps he meant the life of an up and coming comedian which is much like a new band out on the road going from gig to git. NOT an easy life.
Wait, I’m confused... the boss is anti-woman because he awkwardly/weirdly insists on telling women he wants his daughter to be a smart professional instead of a sexy pop star? He doesn’t sound great, but he also doesn’t sound horrible (I’m a woman). The Ethicist sounds embarrassingly awkward here in response, kind of just nervous to be misread as sexist too, or something. The whole thing feels so painfully careful and superficial it’s hard to take it even a little bit seriously. Real advice isn’t so bland, cautious, and self-protective. Sigh.
127
@DB, Also a woman, and I caught that too. Boss may be some supervision at his level and perhaps a good EAP to help me manage work related stress but his failure to appreciate hyper-sexualized pop stars as torch-bearers of Third Wave Feminism is really reaching.
42
Grandma can take her unwanted live-in grandson and deposit him in a shelter for unwanted relatives, if he is not adopted within a few days, they can euthanize him. Sound dreadful? Well, that's what seems to be being proposed for Grandma's cherished pets.
105
@Rosemary maybe this was why God turned Isaac into a sheep at the last minute - freeing up space for a new resident. When it comes down to it, I highly doubt Grandma would choose to put her grandson to death for her cats. And if she did, I suspect it'd be on the cover of the Post.
@Rosemary
A shelter for unwanted relatives? Now that's an idea whose time has come.
9
In reference to both these stories - Doesn't anyone expect anyone to have any inner strength any more? In life, you need to make sacrifices for others and you need to be able to deal with jerks. You don't need others to do this for you, you need to do it for yourself. I don't understand how anyone could decide that cats could be so necessary as to trump a grandchild's health. As far as a weird boss goes, I hate to say this, but, "Get over it!" The cats need to go and so do the complaints to HR.
9
@Mike Allan Diagree on both points. How about thinking of inner strength for all of us? I get to voice concerns when I question my work environment and if someone wants to live with me, they deal with my house and my household. That’s inner strength!
15
@Mike Allan
Getting others to do what she wants is exactly LW2's point. The cats aren't hers; they belong to another woman who had them for 2 years before the allergic grandson showed up. So far, she hasn't got the guy's doctor to do anything more than opine that 1 cat might be better than 5. She doesn't seem to have found a mental health professional to officially diagnose Gran as a hoarder; she just tosses in that term. Now, she's asking a newspaper columnist to side w/her. Maybe she needs to change tact & get the grandson to solve his financial problems another way.
LW1 also wants to use others - enlisting HR to get her boss, her office, & the entire company to change its organizational structure to suit her sensibilities. She needs to use her inner strength to find a job in a more traditional structure.
28
In the first scenario, the boss seems to be a bit of a jerk but I don’t see what the harassment is. Seems to me the young employee is way too sensitive. Regarding the second scenario, I was surprised to see how many comments sided with the cats. I guess for cat lovers blood is not thicker than cat food.
15
@Queenie Have you asked yourself why the son isn't living with his mom? That might be the real story.
27
I thought the instances of "sexism" brought up by the female employee were fairly trivial. If these are the worst she's experienced, I wouldn't bother reporting them to HR.
50
Do NOT depend on HR or go to them for help.
HR departments only serve one real purpose in the corporate world, and that is management's bidding and protecting executive jobs (regardless of how these bad apples abuse workers, HR will be on THEIR side). They have no other discernible uses other than that. Sales bring in the revenue. Production manufactures good/services for sale. Every department creates value in some way. HR does not and thus even the highest ranking HR exec has zero power/pull in any organization. Thus, the dept survives and exists based solely on it's role to SERVE management, which holds the purse strings to its annual budget (i.e. continued existence).
NYT, please do a better job of not spreading misinformation to young and impressionable workers. Thank you.
16
@Bear
As someone who worked in HR for 15 years in a global energy company, I have to say that you know NOTHING about HR in general.
What you say may be true in your work experience, but it is way off base in the world in general. In the company where I worked, it was one of the top HR executives who became president of the US branch of one of the 5 largest companies in the world. Um... not exactly "zero power/pull."
Second one: her grandson appears to be an adult. If so, he goes not the cats.
42
I used to work under a manager who delighted in coming up silently behind us computer programmers when we were all deep in concentration, and suddenly slamming his arm down on a metal filing cabinet to make a loud bang - whereupon we would promptly jump about 6" above our seats - before coming down with concentration shattered, adrenaline pumping - and silently hating his guts.
No women would stay there - any that arrived would demand a transfer out before 3 months was up - until one day an older more experienced female spoke up at a meeting where the manager was present - she angrily called out his behaviour and basically said 'we're sick of it and we're not going to take it anymore!'
Well ! - he stood up and slunk out of that room - went to his office and closed his door - and we didn't see him for the rest of the day. The next day I heard murmurs from him of 'I thought I was being fun!'
Wow - a wide Mississippi between his imaginations and his subordinates' perceptions of his behaviour.
I believe he had a very narrow upbringing - so probably was copying what his father thought was fun in his family home, and presuming this would naturally be fun in the workplace.
Oh no Nelly - not on your bippy !
11
@Frank Perhaps someone could have taken him aside - after he slammed the cabinet and mentioned that the action really affected their work (something he would not I assume wish to happen). It is not always easy to speak up but waiting usually means a build up of anger. In this case the man was oblivious and perhaps would have appreciated it before it was brought up at the meeting which was a shameful experience for him.
I learned this at one of my jobs where a co-worker (who was super nice, shy and sharing of his knowledge) was informed by a new hire who was very outspoken, that he had body odor. He said it in what was meant to be "funny" but it was not really funny as it was said in front of a group of us including our boss as we were being introduced.
Later, almost in tears, he asked me why I never said anything. I was young then, but realize that what ever awkwardness it might have presented for me, I could have at least brought it to the attention to our boss ( a lovely woman who was kind and gentle) and she could have done so. My oops.
4
As far as the boss is concerned, nothing is forever and he may only be a boss for a short time. As long is he doesn't retaliate financially toward women. As far as snapping at people, it's been my experience that people that are in over their head or unsure of themselves or more likely to behave like this at work. As far as the stupid opinions just ignore them. Let his wife and daughters try to fix his behavior.
The cats are probably a comfort to her or maybe a crutch. I know of a woman whose cats increased from two when her husband was alive to seven after he died. The cats keep her from going on vacation, having company, prevents her from relocating, etc. I think the restrictions on her lifestyle make her even more depressed. People want to have to fix their "problem." Depending on the age of her grandson, the grandmother may view him as short-term company and her cats as long-term comfort.
7
@BLH You judge the grandmother with out ever having met her, or being a professional in the field who would NEVER go on the words of a relative in their diagnosis, but based on your experience of another person's situation. (called bias in the field and not acceptable when making a diagnosis).
Hoarding if she is one, can be done for many reasons but having five stray cats does not make one a hoarder, especially if she has a large house and can take care of them. The writer might ask if she and the grandson can help her out if need be - have they? Sometimes in our older age it is hard to get certain tasks done and it simple means "unfinished" piles of projects to be completed.
I took in stray cats (only two at time) but hundreds of fish from local pet stores when they were sick and about to be flushed. I improved their health when possible and re-homed them making it easy by obtaining free aquarium equipment and tanks on free-cycle and providing all else including plants from my own aquariums. My small bedroom was lined with very large and small aquariums for my own life long hobby and on another wall to wall desk I built one part was for the "fish hospital".
Does that make me a "hoarder".
6
Five cats is not hoarding. The house is the grandmother's. If the grandson does not have his life together, he should go live with his mommy and/or his daddy, instead of imposing on grandmother and trying to get her to give up her animals. The grandson is the one with the problem, he is the defective organism unsuited for living with mammals, he should be the one to go.
By the way, a Swiss firm, HypoPet AG, has developed a vaccine to combat the feline-produced protein Fel d 1, to which 10% of humans are allergic. The vaccine is administered to the cat. The allergic grandson could pay for the cat vaccine and have the cats vaccinated, if the grandmother agrees.
But the best solution is really for the entitled untogether grandson to move. His demands are outrageous and he has no right to impose on the grandmother. And he adds stress to the household and the cats by his demands and disdain for cats.
Cats generally are much better companions than grandchildren. They do not cry and whine and make selfish demands, they are housebroken and do not need diapers. They are quiet and allow one to go about her business. They are affectionate and uncomplaining. Rehome the grandson.
66
I'm honestly disappointed in Mr. Appiah this week.
The boss is not being nice, but LR1 seems to find sexism too easily. I discuss this in reply to Christine M.
I'm really annoyed by the response to LR2. Keeping cats is not hoarding. Cats are not toys to be discarded when inconvenient. LR2 has some issues, it seems, and I would like evidence hoarding is a problem. Mr. Appiah should have picked up on this.
82
@Thomas Zaslavsky
You're not alone in annoyance. This is the second consecutive week where Mr. Appiah hasn't picked up on contradictions or lack of evidence that undermine the letter writer's version of facts and thus, make his responses worthless.
16
The woman with the problem boss.
Just couldn’t get a picture of the set up.
A lot of what she said had me thinking you had to be there to get it. I couldn’t help feeling that if she liked him better everything he did would be alright. What I saw was her lack of control of her situation and her not establishing her own boundaries and standards. Overall, an undisciplined environment, which I feel if one finds oneself in, you either get out or find a way of dealing with it.
The cat lady. Not enough info. I didn’t like the judgment of her psychological health. It sounded self serving, serving the interests of caring for grandchild, who is what, 5 years old, 35 years old?
Whose got the financial problems, the mother or the “kid”?
When does the “kid” leave?
The day after she gets rid of the excess cats?
26
Wow. Generally speaking, I am locked and loaded to go after any man who harasses, degrades, diminishes or berates women, based solely on their gender. But for me nothing that “awful, sexist boss” is doing comes across as anything more than the annoying behavior of a man who is a bit of a jerk, and very much a social clod. So, welcome to life! People are difficult. If you can’t deal with a coworker like that — whether boss, peer or subordinate — without running to HR, then you might want to find a job that lets you work from home. I thought the letter sounded petty.
121
@Passion for Peaches the problem is, locked and loaded is now the default. we've gone from misogyny to misandry in a remarkably short time. I guess it's payback.
1
LW1's boss isn't going to change. The work environment she finds "frustrating" isn't going to change. The company isn't going to change. Admit the job isn't a good fit for her sensibilities/work ethic and move on.
18
It’s grandma’s house and she can do what she wants to. And I say this as one who is allergic to cats.
57
ever consider that grandma isn't happy about grandson having to live with her and will reluctantly help him out but is making sure there is a reason for him to move out asap.
27
I was struck by the author’s ready acceptance of the cat-lady grandmother’s problem as a possibly treatable mental condition, but his complete obliviousness to the possibility that the jerky man-boss’s problem might also be a treatable mental condition.
Excessive irritability may reflect an anxiety disorder - or, in an extreme case, post-traumatic stress disorder. Both are treatable. The boss should be sent to an employee assistance program, if the company has one, before his career advancement is “terminated,” as the letter-writer suggested.
7
What a lovely grandmother to take in stray cats and family members. Maybe she hoards beings in need of a home. She certainly sounds like a generous woman who isn’t leaving anyone out in the cold. Maybe the LW could celebrate mom and help nephew find a room to let somewhere else.
61
Perhaps the mother in letter 2 could give a couple of the cats to the boss in letter 1.
7
@Stu Pidasso Not a bad idea but it might be considered animal cruelty to inflict him on the poor cats.
1
Don't socialize with co-workers. No good can come of it. Keep work and personal lives separate.
18
Yeah, I agree with most of these comments. HR may give you a pep talk on "hostile work space", but not much will happen. And the complainer will be known as just that.
I think this is a also generational thing - women who are a few years older are used to dealing with SO much worse - these kind of comments are off-putting and obnoxious but nothing worth getting this upset over. You find a way to shut it down or work it out (people are more open to frank conversations, even bosses, than you might think - and he even apologized after one incident). Most of us have heard far worse, and sadly, she probably will too. If this is the worst boss she ever has, she's a lucky woman.
The other lady should keep her cats. It's her house, and they will still be there for her when he leaves. Seems unfair that she and her pets should have to give up so much - he doesn't have to make this a long-term situation...
30
Seriously? It took you *that* long to say "go to HR"? And nothing else?
And the fact that you'd even suggest HR as a practical alternative makes clear you haven't actually been at a company on *this* planet in the last 40 years.
21
A sense of humour always helps when you have a difficult boss.
14
Of course the writer of letter two thinks the mother is showing symptoms of hoarding--his or her son needs a rent-free place to live.
Without more about why the letter writer believes his/her mother is a hoarder, it seems very possible the description is a false justification for why the mother should part with her pets.
And five cats, properly cared for in the house, is not necessarily hoarding. I agree that for a person with a severe allergy, even one cat may be too much. But the person who needs to do something about his living situation is the grandson, not the grandmother.
55
Letter writer #1 - Your boss' temper is a problem. Tantrums by boss, were once considered acceptable in some work places, but thankfully that time is over. I'm an older person, raise in work places where yelling and berating was acceptable and I adopted those practices until... I was confronted about it professionally and directed to temper my temper. So I did. I learned to check my responses and resist the temptation to let my anger spill out.
You should talk to somebody in authority about this man's anger issues.
As for the rest of it.,,
If work forces you to socialize with people you don't like, that's bad. If work offers you the opportunity to socialize with others, you have the choice to accept and so does he. If you find it unpleasant, then don't, but understand in non-work settings people will express opinions with which you disagree. The ones you describe don't seem to rise to the level of actionable.
In describing the video, you say that he tried to "force you to agree," while you "defended yourself and asked him to read about 3rd wave feminism." If two people disagree and express their opinions and counter arguments, how is it that one person is "trying to force you to agree" which the other is merely "defending themselves?"
22
Re: The abusive boss: First and foremost, the employee should immediately start keeping a log of three things:
1. anti-woman or sexually inappropriate comments by the boss;
2. generally abusive behavior by the boss; and
3. occasions when the employee felt pressured to socialize after work, and when she actually socialized.
This log can include past events, if the employee can remember details of their occurrence.
All of those behaviors pose risks to the company. Even if the HR dept. is not worker-oriented, a smart HR person will recognize the risk to the company and take steps to curtail them (hopefully without identifying the complainant, but with the support of upper management). However, if there is retaliation, the employee will have evidence to counter that with.
By the way, this advice applies equally to any reader who is subject to any of the three problems listed above.
10
Many people who have more than one companion animal are not hoarders, and in the absence of any other evidence, I'm reluctant to apply that label here.
I'm also dismayed by The Ethicist's lack of ethical concern for the well-being of the cats and the well- being of the grandmother, all of whom have formed deep attachments to one another.
If this living arrangement is such a hardship for the grandson, then why doesn't the LW -- his aunt or uncle -- take him in? What about his parents, or a friend? Why is the elderly woman the one who has to accommodate others rather than enjoy the time she has left, living it as she sees fit? Are women just conveniences to be used by others for as long as they live?
Bad call, Ethicist.
77
The term "team" was used by the letter writer four times. That is three times too much. How about getting a life outside of the workplace - it could give some perspective? And just because the boss is male, "significantly older" (whatever that means - no numbers given) and makes remarks that the writer finds unpleasant does not qualify for creating yet another movement. A minute of fame indeed...
12
Some good comments here. But I want to point out that young MS Name Withheld says nothing, absolutely nothing, about how, if at all, her (fairly normal to my ears) boss' behavior affects her employer's bottom line. (BTW- she only changes her boss' mind rarely? That's pretty darn good.) This is not a social club, it is a business. A typical employee needs to generate at least 10x their gross salary in revenue simply to pay for themselves. I hear zero concern for the well being and profitability of her employer, just about her own feelings, and nothing at all about what her boss does for the shareholders. Call me Boomer if you want, but I don't want an employee that thinks the company is all about them. Just the other day, I went into an ATT store to pay my corporate bill, but the young folks there told me they shut down the payment kiosk on Sundays and two hours before closing so they can get out on time. If anyone who worked for me turned away a paying customer for their own convenience they would gone in a flash. Maybe it is generational, but I don't get this thinking.
25
I am not a cat person, but a dog person. However, letter writer 2 may or may not be a reliable historian when it comes to the assessment that her mother is an animal hoarder. Is the grandson a child or an adult? If a minor, he is his parents' financial responsibility and his grandmother seems to be picking up the slack for them. Maybe the mother would be best advised to support her own child in her own presumably petless home. If the grandson is a young adult (or older), let him support himself. The advice is predicated on the mother's allegations alone; there is not enough information to draw any advice-oriented conclusion, but considering that this column attracts a lot of people writing about personal problems, rather than true ethical dilemmas, my reaction would be to tell mom to be more financially responsible and not expect others to alter their lives for her son, who may be 30 years old. If he has been there for two years, that is 1 year 50 weeks too long.
36
5 cats is not hoarding. It doesn't sound like anyone is complaining that the cats are not using their litter boxes and are generally neglected and semi-social. The grandson can find other accommodations.
99
@A.Tankoos, I agree. it’s a ridiculous letter, and an even worse answer. I don’t have grandchildren, but if one of my nieces or nephews fell upon hard times and wanted to live in my house (for free), and was allergic to dogs, I know with whom my loyalty would lay. Who would give up their pets to please a mooching grandson,or the boy’s demanding, judgmental mother or aunt? Amazing.
39
@A.Tankoos
Exactly. Furthermore, why is it the grandmother's responsibility to provide the financially strapped grandson with free housing? What about other family members, like the mother who wrote this letter?
38
@A.Tankoos
I so agree with you. What the heck? The cats needed a home. It doesn't much matter whether they are "sources of comfort" or not! They are creatures, for which humans are responsible (produced because some human somewhere did not spay or neuter). They are domestic animals and therefore their care falls upon humans. Kudos to this woman for caring for them. Who among us wants to be homeless and hungry?
43
I have severe cat allergies and asthma, and simply put, I would not move in with someone who had cats. Even if the cats go, the house would need a serious, serious cleaning (like walls and everything) before it would be allergy-free after all those cats, especially if there's any carpet. If there's really no other option for the grandson, then hopefully this can be motivation to get out of there.
62
HR does not work for the employees... um, let's make that more explicit: HR does not work for the *resources*.
HR's nature is written right into its name. Going to them with actual issues never ends well for the issue-bearer. Let alone in cases like this, where there's much room for questioning the existence of an issue at all.
97
@Rob Exactly. This needs to be communicated more, but unfortunately it is in the HR profession's interests to keep things obfuscated. They want employees to trust them and see them as "good" and on the worker's side. That way, when a worker comes to them for aid, they can do management's job for them and shut it down. Very sneaky. Very evil.
9
Sadly, in corporate America, Human Resources departments do not exist for and have no interest in fairness to ordinary employees; they exist to protect the ones at the top. The behavior described is rampant and not likely to change any time soon.
As for the grandmother and her cats, her grandson needs to grow up and stand on his own two feet.
71
p.s. Five cats is a lot. But its not "hoarding".
103
That was my thought, too. If the cats are well cared for, five is not necessarily excessive. They were there first; if the grandson has a serious problem he should find another place to live.
91
@M.J. The writer said the cats were a symptom of her hoarding disorder, not that having five cats make her a hoarder.
1
@C.J.
But if the grandmother has a serious psychological disorder, why does the mother want her son to live there? If it's really the home of a hoarder it's a very unsafe and unhealthy place.
More likely, the letter writer dropped that tidbit to make the grandmother appear to be unreasonable regarding the cats.
25
1. That boss sounded relatively tame, really. I'm shocked, shocked, someone doesn't like her boss.
2. The cats aren't the problem. The grandson needs to find his own place.
413
@Max Brown
Thanks. I was wondering if I was the only one who had that reaction. Unpleasant behavior under stress? Dear me.
Is hanging around watching videos part of the job? Or was that after hours? Maybe you all need to learn a bit about setting boundaries.
37
@Max Brown
"Someone doesn't like her boss" is not the problem...the fact you can't see it IS what perpetuates problems like this.
4
That the worker is feeling discriminated against is not the end of the inquiry. The second question to ask is whether a reasonable person would feel discriminated against under these circumstances. The cited behavior may make her feel bad, but would it make a reasonable person feel that way? I doubt it.
209
Well cared for cats are not a symptom of hoarding. I grew up with 10+ indoor/outdoor cats and my parents are completely normal non-hoarders. They just like cats.
180
My husband and I once had nine cats. They came with the farmhouse, they were all loved and taken care of. The mom cat lived for 17 years! We also have a clutter free home, no weird hoarding behaviors.
103
@Brook hawk
I had seven cats before they grew old and started to leave me (age 17, 19, etc.)...now down to four. I had lots of litter boxes and cleaned well. No hoarder. The creatures come to my front door, hungry and cold, they are provided for. That is just how it is.
63
@E Or they have toxoplasmosis--a parasite that makes humans (and rodents) like cats. And explains the phenomenon of "cat people" quite well.
LW#1 Problem #1: A workplace environment that includes employees drinking alcohol is conducive to abusive behavior. The likelihood of abuse goes up a thousand fold.
LW#1 Problem #2: Socializing with your boss at work, it being a part of your job description is a recipe for disaster. First of all, it sounds more like work than whatever work you are doing. Part of being a good employee is following orders and acting friendly and compliant even if you don't want to. Being subjected to required additional hours socializing under that same framework is abusive to employees.
LW#1 Problem #3: Going to complain to HR is a pain, but it is part of your job too. Go to HR and report your manager's behavior.
21
This sounds like the work version of the Big Brother series. I couldn't do all that forced socializing with co-workers all the time, Is this the future of work? Scary.
54
@PrairieFlax I´d tend to analyse all the hours spent on the road and forced socialising and calculate what the pay actually is - its just absurd this lack of boundary between professional and personal time, being forced to socialise with bosses and employees, its so phony makes me gag and obviously a ploy to take advantage of workers, create some sort of "cool" atmosphere like SF´s airbnb while the owners rip everybody off as they have them on call 24/7/365.
1
TO "I’m a woman in my 20s, and [the manager] he’s significantly older". -- Try to get transferred into another team. If you do not care much about this job, start looking for a new one and make certain you neither in a figurative, nor real grasping range of cantankerous "dirty old men".
16
Horrible Boss
Please! HR? Way too much confidence in HR. Reporting to HR bureaucratizes the problem. It hardly solves it. Who does HR people report to? Is there confidentiality? Real? What next? Reporting is often a road that leads to to nowhere fast for the person who raised the issues in the first place. Whistleblower problem anyone? Not to mention the stigma of a problem being characterized as your problem, your personality.
This is work climate stuff and HR won't solve it. Here's what I recommend and I'm not kidding. Elan. Wryness, dryness, humor. The silent stare, especially if it's directly said to you. Needs practice. Set your boundaries. Calling someone on what they say when they say it, even if it's a dry monotone 'Really?'. Lots of opportunities in the events reported in that letter.
Don't react.
These are the skills you need to develop. Good skills. Own your space. Yep it makes people uncomfortable. Going to HR? Nope.
Know that you are not alone.
135
@Joyce
Above all, remember that HR is there to protect the company. Not the employee.
107
@Joyce Just want to say how right you are about dealing with this issue one on one. It is entirely in her hands to, with wisdom and high confidence, sideline his behavior the way you suggest.
To help her, I'd like to point out that men like this are deeply insecure; they are children, terrified of being found out. See him as 12 year old in shorts because that's exactly who he is and treat him that way too!
4
What an excruciatingly bland recitation of 2019's set-in-concrete rules on workplace behavior the Ethicist offers us this week.
No room for gray or even a consideration that the writer's statements might fail to add up to a problem. The improprieties are exceedingly minor. For instance, someone [jokingly!] stating that women out-do men in everything except humor is hardly an "anti-woman" statement. If a person said that men were better at everything then women except _____, would that be considered an anti-man statement? (Men should rule the world but let's admit it: women should control housecleaning. Discuss what a man-hating comment that is)
If someone uttered that they through all the men at the company were "weird" would a man run to HR? No. Is it a trait exclusive to this boss (or men) that one gets testy under pressure? Hardly.
This logic is utterly topsy-turvy, and speaks more to the condition of the writer than it does of her boss.
This company obviously encourages/requires socializing, and we all might be a little better off to realize we can't always be in uniform. Eventually some personality and opinion is going to slip out, and only the most dull as dishwater person has something to fear from that!
Some people are even such bores that they hope their daughter grows up to be a professional who does not live off her looks. Does he not understand the current iteration of feminist thinking that justifies all of that?!?! The Beast!!!!
170
@Clotario absolutely. I think LW should just get over herself already. This ‘ethical problem’. Seems more like an aggrieved sourpuss looking, looking, looking for someone to sue.
25
@Clotario get out of my mind! but yes, well said.
8
Good grief, go home and stop the boundary violations. Not blaming the LW but besides talking to HR, it is important to keep the work life out of the social life or she WILL be blamed for 'leading him on.' Please.
20
After re-reading Letter 1, I find that I just can’t get worked up into outrage about the described behavior. Maybe the boss is a bit of a boor at times, but he’s hardly exhibiting behavior that crosses a red line. Indeed, it seems that the writer exemplifies what has come to be disdainfully referred to as snowflake behavior, with more than a touch of ageism thrown in.
Further, I have zero sympathy for the “ modern condition” of working together and then socializing constantly as well. If that really is done to the extent the writer describes then are we to accept that work rules are 24/7 for everything? How is that time off or relaxation? And who in their right, adult mind, thinks having a beer tap in the office is a good idea? Spare me.
I think the ethicist missed the boat on this one, for nothing described really calls for a revision of any work paradigm.
482
Agreed. The man is clueless but hardly seems toxic.
102
@George S I don't like the term "snowflake" as it applies today. But this office culture is insane.
30
@George S
Maybe start watching TED talks or Coursera instead of music videos. Be more adult than the boss. If he criticizes "professional advancement" efforts then you have a different and more serious concern.
15
If there’s any ethics involved in Letter #2, it almost seems like possible elder abuse to me. LW says the grandson “has to live with her for financial reasons”. Though the age wasn’t given, it sounds like the grandson is probably an adult, and other family members pressured the grandmother to take him in, and are now pressuring her to give up her cats.
366
The grandmother doesn't want the child in her home. Who knows if she's being a kind, caring person towards him. You should think about a temporary foster home while you work on your finances.
28
@Julia : He isn't a minor -- he moved in "for financial reasons" (implies that he lost his job); he consults with his doctor, which children can't do; and he's in charge of taking his allergy medications, one of which is a weekly shot (also implies a young-adult level of responsibility).
So foster care isn't needed, nor is it an option for anyone who is a young adult.
7
Re. letter #1, I've read it, re-read it, and am left scratching my head. If third-wave feminism means taking comments such as 'men are funnier' as evidence of a hostile work environment (unless, say, you're working as a writer for comedies), I'm going to hope the tide receds.
308
About those cats...
The writer declares the mother is a hoarder. Is that a personal or professional assessment? How old is this grandson? Why is his grandmother’s house the only place he can go? Why doesn’t the writer or some other family member or friend take him?
There isn’t enough information given.
The Ethicist’s reply seems influenced by stereotypes of demented old ladies, living alone with a pride of cats.
It’s her house. The cats were already there when he moved in. The writer should assist the young man to find other accommodations rather than question the older woman’s ethics.
470
@Ikebana62 I agree with all of this. Kwame's response was surprisingly tone-deaf. The letter writer seems to be seeking permission from Kwame to have the grandmother "get rid of" (such an awful phrase) her cats. "See here? He agrees with me! Out with the cats!" It's so upsetting to me that people can be so cold-hearted and cruel to animals. They were there first and are clearly loved. They are Grandma's family. Why should she reduce their number to one? And where did this designation of "hoarder" come from? There doesn't seem to be any proof, only a specious opinion. The cats are "a symptom of a psychiatric condition"?? How do you know? Ironically, it's unethical to espouse that opinion with no proof.
It's her home. They're her cats. If Grandson doesn't like it, HE should be rehomed.
290
@Ikebana62
LW2 conveniently declares Gran to be a hoarder, but doesn't blame hoards of dusty, musty stuff for the allergies - probably because there isn't hoarding going on. She's selectively applying the label to the cats.
46
@Ikebana62 This is the main question I have about this letter, and I don't understand why the Ethicist and staff did not dig more into why the grandson can only live with the grandmother. However old he is or whatever his needs are, he obviously has other family members.
20
Last week’s and this week’s questions and discussion feel more like those of an advice column than an ethics column. I could read these questions so many other places... I miss the ethics column...
77
I agree. This column (and its writer) has a bad
case of mission drift. Further, both of this week's responses are substandard, to put it mildly.
130
@Susan Montgomery: I miss the ethics column too. I've complained about this frequently. This column's writer is a situational ethicist. He seems to interpret his role as focusing on the situation, not the ethical question.
57
@Susan Montgomery Agreed. I've been disappointed with Appiah's responses. They feel more like trendy opinions rather than a real analysis of ethical issues. I've mostly stopped reading this column--it used to be one of my favorites.
52
LW1 - While many companies seem to have made some progress against sexual harassment, they've made little or no progress against other forms of abuse. Bosses who abuse everyone equally are often tolerated, even enabled by HR. I have scars to prove it.
LW2 - You'll take my pets when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
72
The headline lead me to expect a report of “awful” behavior. What I saw was a report of routine, mildly annoying, nothing important behavior. The letter writer provides the very definition of “snowflake” type victimhood. Not every “less than perfect” behavior by a male qualifies as a “me too” career death penalty offense. Move along people. Nothing to see here.
371
Regarding the grandmother with the cats: You clearly missed the boat on this answer. Taking in five stray cats is not enough evidence to say that a person is a hoarder. There are many who prefer the company of animals to humans. Would you state that someone who adopts five children is a hoarder? It is the grandmother’s home and she has the right to live as she chooses. Where are the parents of the young man? It seems to me that his parents have relied upon the very nature of a woman who would take in stray cats to foist a stray grandson upon her. Let her live her life as she chooses.
253
Years ago I gave up a cat because my older son developed asthma and the doctor attributed the asthma to the cat. The doctor was insistent and although it hurt, I knew I had no choice. But my son was 7, not an adult as I suspect this allergic person is, and I was solely responsible for my son’s welfare. I didn’t share responsibility with other family members. She should keep the cats if she wants them.
154
I'm sorry, but if the presence of the cats are such a problem for writer number two, why doesn't SHE take in the grandson (who is either her own child or a nephew)? Why does she think that her mother is a hoarder? That's HER word for her mother, nothing that is documented. Lots of people have multiple cats. If they're well cared-for that's not hoarding. Number two's mother raised her and likely did what she could for her. At this point in her mother's life she should be able to keep the animals she loves. She isn't obligated to her grandson. She's doing him a favor. If he doesn't like it, he should leave. Animals are usually nicer than people, too.
233
@BA
5 cats is a lot. 20 cats is a hoard.
25
@SB and both are a clowder.
9
@BA : Don't assume that the LW is a woman. Men also write to columnists.
The fact that the LW isn't suggesting a compassionate alternative -- providing temporary shelter for the nephew -- suggests that the LW is a man, because woman are conditioned to put everyone else's needs ahead of their own.
16
The boss and the letter writer are both victims of a new kind of workplace environment that is completely at odds with our current hyper-PC culture - an environment where private and public life overlap, and can clash. The boss has tried to work with this problem using humor and apology, which is commendable. The letter writer has her own skills to utilize here, but without saying what she ought to do, I recommend she avoid blaming her boss directly.
I disagree with the Ethicist that we need a "new social covenant that affirms the value of decent treatment in the workplace". We all value decent treatment, but we often disagree about the nuts and bolts of what that means. As human beings, that will always be the case, as it surely is in this case.
76
It is assumed the mother has a hoarding disorder because the daughter said she does....not KAA. If the grandmother cannot see that the cats are the catalyst of her grandsons illness, she has a problem. Correct, where are the other members of the family, including the writer, that could take the child rather than sit back and "allow" the grandson to remain in an atmosphere that is detrimental to his health. Seems strange to me.
20
@Dinelj: And if the grandson is legally an adult, why isn't he living on his own?
Did grandma sign a contract agreeing to care for him in case of (unspecified!) "financial difficulties"? If not, she's being imposed upon! It's her house, her cats, her rules.
16
@Dinelj --And why would he even move in with a bona fide hoarder? If he is a child, who in their right mind would place him with someone who was a hoarder?
And five cats is not a hoarder. She's a cat lover.
15
@Dinelj
It sounds like the "child" is an adult.
9
With the first letter, I can't help but wonder if this could also be a generational thing as well as a sexist issue? The guy might have come of age in the business when his behavior was rewarded; men who admitted they were wrong or changed their minds were considered to be weak and suspect by other males. This could easily be the behavior that has made him a manager in the first place! While I cannot excuse his behavior, I think this can help explain it. He also seems to have a problem taking women seriously. This, too, is an attitude encouraged by an era that is not far in the past, and often rewarded with promotions (And, strangely enough, I know of a woman manager who has the same attitude about other women). I agree that she should approach HR, but do it cautiously. As someone who was an administrator in a college for 20 years, I can assert from experience that HR can make things worse. This, however, unaddressed could very easily end up in a lawsuit.
8
Having five cats isn't hoarding.
129
@DW maybe it is. if it's a studio apartment.
Maybe the grandmother just likes cats... and the grandson less. It happens.
141
But the company will act only if it wants to. Around the turn of the current century, I worked in a small company (just under 50 people). A new VP was hired to manage our largest client. This person was a cruel and demanding boss who used bullying to achieve goals. I remember the time a younger employee came to my office in tears over how she was treated. I got her transferred to my team but the damage was done -- she soon left and we had to search for and train a replacement.
This sort of thing happened repeatedly, but the CEO (at that time there was no HR) did nothing. The new VP was so well skilled at "managing up" that there was no need to manage well down or sideways -- more than once, I suppose because my competence or that of my team appeared threatening, I was the recipient of vituperation when no one else was around. And still the CEO did nothing, ever.
The VP finally left for greener pastures, after having damaged many lives with no repercussions.
26
Guy thinks a many of the women in a subset are 'weird.' That isn't anti-women. That is a personal opinion about a portion of individuals in a group.
Guy thinks men are funnier than women. That isn't anti-women. It is an opinion. What was that basis of it?
You want to get a person fired because you don't like their taste in comedy and their feelings about a handful of people?
You want an older person to lose his job (as people get older it becomes more difficult to get work) because he wants his daughters to be more like you?
Is that the #MeToo movement? Ruining people's lives because they offend you with impolite opinions?
An older woman hugged me at work. I didn't really like it. I avoid situations where I am alone with her now. But I wouldn't try to get her fired. What nonsense. Harming people because of hurt feelings.
336
@Willt26
I am a vehement supporter of Me too, and I completely agree with you. The boss's comments are at worst lacking in good judgment. The bit about wishing his wife and daughter were like her sounds embarrassing but probably well intentioned.
199
@Willt26 Calling a qualified and obviously intelligent woman "weird" was the reaction of my co-supervisor to a candidate he clearly didn't want to hire because she was female.
11
@Willt26
How strange. An older woman hugged you and now you avoid her? Did she grab your bottom or rub up against you?
I work in a field that is predominately male and my company is big on hugs. I'm not a hugger myself but I surely don't avoid anyone because they do it. It's just the company culture.
I find your comment very odd.
5
This older boss may be occasionally charming, but his rude treatment of employees when he is stressed is not okay. I'm surprised the writer feels he is demeaning to women. if my college aged son had been there, HE would have been offended at hearing someone say that women should rule the world! Women aren't funny? That's his opinion- big deal! That opinion affects nothing in the work place. And the writer should show better judgement than to show what an older man may consider risque. She may support 3rd wave feminism, but many older men still haven't caught up to first wave.
26
@middle-aged white woman Heck, I am a female boomer feminist and I have never heard of "3rd wave feminism" before this. I question why LW1 would have thought it appropriate to be "...hanging out as a team and watching music videos" unless it was work-related. I further question her maturity in playing "a video in which a female pop singer looks amazing and does a lot of dancing" in such a situation. Advice to LW1: grow up, get a social life, and understand work is just that - work.
13
So she's taking in her grandson temporarily and is expected to give up her pets? That the writer has decided is a hoarding problem. Her grandson sounds to be an adult, taking allergy meds and shots. If he can't stay with her, he can live on his own. It is not her responsibility to give up her pets while he lives with her instead of independently.
187
"There’s a good chance that the H.R. folks could persuade your boss to keep his ridiculous opinions about women to himself. "
HR exists solely to protect companies from legal retribution. There's also a good chance based on the poster's description that whoever runs HR is probably close friends with the jerk boss. This seems like very poor advice in this situation. She could be teeing up her own termination by doing this in the environment she describes.
38
LW#1 What is "fair" and what is doable are 2 different things. If horrible boss is making massive $$$$ for the company no one cares he is horrible. You need a new job. Blurring of work/home boundaries leads to unprofessional behavior by lots of people. Once you turn him in, you are likely to be blackballed in the industry via the grapevine so you better have a real good case or already have another job. Sounds like techbro culture.
LW#2 Cats were there first. Yes she sounds like an animal hoarder but grandson needs to make other arrangements.
28
@Marti Mart: Can you explain on what basis YOU get to decide that "she sounds like an animal hoarder"??
13
Disclaimer I have HR experience but while l letter writer number one’s boss does seem unpleasant, I hardly think any of this qualifies for the MeToo movement. He seems kind of like an equal opportunity jerk. He should keep his opinions to himself and he needs to be addressed by the company on that but this really doesn’t rise to the level of harassment or discrimination. 
126
@Christine M
First, let me say the boss was going over the line in personal discussion. Bosses have to have restraint. They owe it to employees not to make them uncomfortable for reasons not related to work performance.
Like Christine, I did not see sexism in the boss's comments. He seems to have some confused feelings about feminism, but he is not against it, he just doesn't understand it the way the letter-writer does. I wonder why the letter-writer says only "I put on a video in which a female pop singer looks amazing and does a lot of dancing" -- I have a suspicion that "looks amazing and does a lot of dancing" may mean the pop singer was half-dressed and projecting sex -- like Beyonce and Rihanna and many others. I find this kind of "liberation" masquerading as feminism somewhat troubling. Maybe the boss does, too, and can't understand why a woman would not agree. Let me be clear: I'm not prescribing feminist ideology; that's not my role. I'm saying the boss seems to have some difficulty with "what women want" (please pardon the expression!).
22
@Thomas Zaslavsky It's not third wave man!
1
LW #1 - I think the main problem this office has is a lack of boundaries. Maybe stop hanging out together all the time … it sounds awful. Don't watch dance videos together … you're bound to argue about it.
As to the boss himself, I am generally all in favor of calling out a sexist boss. But it sounds like this guy's main issue is he's sort of immature, argumentative, difficult - it doesn't sound like sexism is the heart of the problem. It sounds unpleasant … but in a long career, you'll work with a lot of people you don't particularly care for. I would just try to laugh this guy off, until you can get a better job.
98
Hmmm...if taking in five stray cats is a sign of mental illness, half my friends are ready for the looney bin. We all love cats and help strays at the drop of a hat...or grandchild.
122
I'll probably be pilloried for this but regarding LW1:
A manager who's considerably older than someone in her 20s might have good reasons for holding onto his opinions--despite the 20-something not liking it--that have nothing to do with his being a problem. Like experience, for example. More mature judgment. A deeper understanding of the industry/market/client/trends.
Also I don't think any of his remarks were that bad.
146
@Talbot
Bosses having tantrums at work is still too common, and should really not be tolerated. I have dealt with decades of this, and I hope it ends for future generations.
It sounds like the man has made inappropriate personal comments many times. Nobody is criticizing his business acumen. But clearly his social skills are not keeping up with the times.
It is possible you are younger than I am, but believe me, we never liked having to deal with such behavior. I do hope younger men and women are holding higher standards for the workplace: Keep your personal preferences to yourself, and treat everyone professionally. Tantrums are for toddlers, not professionals. Bullying is really rude, unnecessary in a workplace, and liable in litigation.
We can watch reruns of Mad Men and laugh now, but some workplace behaviors are still not funny.
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@KMF I agree. Sounds like too much socialising also. Healthy distance is well, healthy.
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If the grandmother had five "children" and not cats boarding and the grandson was not getting alone with them, would anyone expect the boarding children to be given away, relocated elsewhere? It is her house and she lives with whomever she wants. Get your own house.
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@Chatelet
Wish I could recommend this twice!
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Interesting letters this week. One thing stuck out to me about the obnoxious boss:
"Co-workers are friends, managers are mentors, our office has a beer tap in the kitchen and company leaders are casual (while also holding a lot of power)." It sounds to me like the boss may have a drinking problem. The current trend of some companies having beer on tap is going to make these behavioral issues worse.
I think the second letter contains two separate issues that happen to be intersecting. Regarding the grandson, it is hard to judge how much sympathy we should have. What does "financial issues" mean? Caused by what? Regarding the grandmother, it does sound like she may have a hoarding problem, so some sort of intervention might be a good idea. Not sure what that would be, it is a difficult problem.
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@Robert: Nobody indicated that the grandmother is a hoarder except LW#2. You and I have no idea how big her home is, how well cared-for the cats are, etc. She may be doing just fine with the cats - could be that the grandson is the fly in the ointment! Maybe HE needs an intervention!
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A good air filter in his bedroom might help alleviate symptoms while he sleeps, at least.
It's unclear the age of the grandson, and I might be more sympathetic to him if he is a child and thus not in control of his housing circumstances. If he is an adult, I certainly don't have much sympathy.
FWIW, I have only one dog, am not a hoarder, and would not give away my pet except under extreme circumstances. He's a member of my family too. Yes, if one of my kdis were horribly allergic, I'd have to give him up (my kids come first). But I wouldn't do so for a temporary resident, or for an adult.
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Another factor to consider re: the grandmother with cats. Cat dander, the allergen to which people are allergic, persists long after the cats are gone--sometimes for as long as a decade. Dander stays in carpets, upholstered furniture, etc. Getting the cats out of the house is hardly going to be an immediate solution to the problem.
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Regarding the grandmother with the cats:
1. Why doesn’t the writer take in the grandson? They are obviously related too.
2. What’s the full story on why the grandson needs housing? If no one but the grandmother is willing to help, it’s likely to be complex.
2. Why take at face value the assumptions that grandmother has a hoarding disorder and having 5 cats is symptomatic of this? These may be the writer’s opinions, but perhaps the writer is just opinionated. Yes, some people do have a hoarding disorder but there’s no evidence that one even exists here or is severe enough to need treatment. Without a clear disorder being present, it’s problematic to apply psychiatric labels and urge treatment just because we may not agree with someone’s decisions. Similarly, there are no other symptoms suggesting dementia. Was this raised only due to age?
4. Why do people act as if pets can just be traded in like you’d give away old clothes? I’ve had cats and dogs as pets and they clearly have feelings. Obviously the grandmother is very attached to the cats as well, yet empathy for her feelings and the cats seems limited. Yes, there may be times when rehoming is needed such as severe illness or death of the owner or when a pet legitimately endangers the health of another family member, but this scenario doesn’t seem to fall in this category. I’m horrified to see that others, including the columnist, think it would.
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@child I like your comment. I had five cats once -- custody of two because the apartment where my two grown-up sons lived would not allow them, and another one that was a retired show cat the breeder gave to us. And sometimes cats just come as "sets." My mom has three because they are siblings that she rescued. I have two now, and I suspect some of my allergy issues are because of them, but I will never part with them until either they or I go out the natural way.
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@NY MD Yes. I too wonder why the writer is not taking in
her son.
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@Miss Bleu We don't know that it's the writer's son. It could be a nephew. The writer might not live anywhere nearby, so taking in the grandson might not be an option. There's so much here that isn't being said, but it quite honestly sounds like the writer just doesn't like the cats and wants Grandma to get rid of them.
Grandma had had the cats for two years when the grandson moved in; he had to have known about them at the time.
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