“Location, Location, Location”
That’s the golden rule, right? It’s nice to have a pizza around the corner at that snazzy restaurant, go to a black-tie show uptown, dance the night away at your exclusive influencer club and watch the sun come up in Central Park, etc...all a Yellow Cab away from your million-dollar minimalist living experience of an apartment (üb@r is for duschbags!). Of course, it is a grand lifestyle, but the working people making it happen for you can’t afford to live locally; they got to travel to you in order to maintain your nifty amenities. Does that sound really sustainable to you long term as the travel distance increases gor these people?
The flood that could come to New York City might not be water-based flooding, rather the loss of the local amenities which would then cause a flood of empty apartments! — Naw! Just kidding. NYC won’t go down, you got a window A/C unit!
12
The median income in Manhattan is just under $80,000? My husband and I made about $72,000 last year, living in very rural Minnesota. I cannot imagine the stress average New Yorkers must feel over their finances and future. What about retirement? Healthcare? Transportation? I live in another kind of culture it is true, and it can be isolating and infuriating at times, but probably not nearly as stressful as living beyond my income. I live my little farm on the Mississippi. I can travel and visit beautiful places all over the country. I have some extra cash.
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Why not The Bronx? Riverdale, to be specific is a wonderful place to live, bring up kids, become involved in the community which is very diverse, more so than when I was growing up here as did my parents. As a young adult I always thought it would be fun to live in Manhattan but I only worked in Manhattan, made life long friends there and played after work before returning home to Riverdale. In my early ‘40’s I moved to SF with knowing only my younger brother who had lived there for 10 years. I stayed for 21 years but it never really felt like “home.” Said goodbye to SF 7 years ago and returned to Riverdale. Have a beautiful 1 bedroom co op with a terrace, on top floor overlooking the Hudson, Palisades and NY skyline. I can be in mid town Manhattan by car in 20 minutes via the Westside HghWy or co op has a bus that drives you to the MetroNorth train arriving in Manhattan in 25 min. My co op also has an Olympic size outdoor pool, tennis courts, basketball courts, dog park, restaurant, concierge and doorman, gym, kiddie’s pool, year round classes, concerts, book club, laundry room on the premises, van that picks you up in front of the building and brings you down the hill for local shopping. Oh don’t let me forget the landscaping - wide open green spaces with beautiful trees and plantings. And I’m in walking distance to Wave Hill, my local church and the pantry I volunteer in. The staff are wonderful. So why not Riverdale? You won’t be disappointed! It’s Skyview!
4
Even if you exercise a strong position in the market you have to prepared to hold that commodity in a weak position until the market changes.
This is an excellent article. I am able to understand the housing market in NY. It brought to mind public housing in the USA. I lived in France for 10 years and became familiar with the public housing system. Your application is based on your current address. For Paris I met a lady who waited 7 years sleeping on her mothers couch for a one bedroom. In smaller cities its about a 2 year wait. 35% of people live in public housing in France. Rent is 30% of your income with a cap at market rates. So Paris is full of people of all incomes able to live in the city. The USA public housing is seen for the poor. The USA needs a public housing increase for all incomes. Especially in big cities. Remember that Romney recording when he said as president he would eliminate HUD our Dept of housing housing? Which was doubly evil because his father had been the director of HUD under Nixon. Reagan also closed all the long term mental hospitals which was in essence free housing for the extremely poor and disabled. The USA is about 100 years behind Europe when it comes to fair and equal housing.
13
Can a two family household making $57,000/year afford a mortgage of $325,000?
11
Those of you saying that you get more space for your money in St Louis and Vermont should hold your breath. To state the obvious, different places have different advantages and disadvantages which people weight when deciding where to live.
NY is about culture and high paying jobs. It’s a global capital. If skiing was the most important thing on my list it’s the last place I would live.
7
Has anyone thought about a boat dock for the future? It always astonishes me that properties on low lying islands or coasts are still being bought up. There is no tomorrow?
4
It's too bad the areas with a drop in prices have mediocre schools and paying for a private school is not an option for many families.
3
Manhattan is one of the few real estate markets that make me feel Los Angeles is actually affordable. My sympathies to all the good people in the Big Apple feeling the squeeze of high housing costs.
10
@William Fang
The politicians allow this here. They act like they care about the majority but hardly ever check who owns LLC from money launderers to dictators. Most of the apartments purchased are left empty. Simply money laundering.
15
No wonder that cardboard boxes and plastic tarps are preferred by those unable or unwilling to pay for a bargain in this buyer's market.
4
It seems like something is fundamentally wrong with 'the housing market' when the median price of the two-bedroom is five times as much as is considered 'comfortable' for the median income in the area to afford. Put differently, the median two-bedroom apartment costs 19 times the median annual household income. 19 times - 19 years of every penny earned, the whole year, to pay off the median house. Since most households have other expenses, it could take 30, 40, or forever to pay off that home. Something is fundamentally wrong when the 'median' income is so inadequate to the need for housing the family. And, of course, these are New York's numbers... it is even worse here in Silicon Valley. I submit that this is clear evidence of a failed 'market' - the economic system we have now is not functioning to produce enough housing to keep housing within the range of affordability of a large part of our society. Something needs to change.
26
@Jim Brokaw Salaries need to change. Stop paying CEO's Tens of Millions a year. That is insane. They aren't doing Tens of Millions of more work than everybody else.
15
@Jim Brokaw
Jim
Not one teacher, police officer, fire fighter, or the majority of government workers can afford to buy a new two bedroom unless a rich uncle helps them out. Homelessness is at an all time high. Amazon wanted a tax break to expand in Long island City even though Bezos is the wealthiest person in the USA.
Politicians in NYC allowed this nonsense to continue. It is past absurd.
20
It could be a supply problem. It could also be global capitalism.
No matter how much housing is produced, foreign investment will distort the market value of real estate bc the commodity value of real estate ebbs and flows differently than the use value of an apartment to a resident living on a New Yorker salary.
6
Those commenting on high maintenance fees should consider that there have been unconscionably high increases in real estate taxes since de Blasio assumed office. While at the same time granting one and two percent increases to stabilized tenants.
It’s called buying votes.
10
Looks like the logical thing to do is buy and combine 2 adjacent studios to create a 2 BR, or 2 adjacent 1 BRs to create a 3 BR. The savings would be substantial. For ex. 2 1 BRs = 2 x 815 k = 1,630,000 as opposed to 2,861,000 for a 3 BR. Therefore the price of the larger units is greatly inflated for each extra BR vs the increase in square footage.
4
@Nancy Rockford
The problem with combined apartments is that the price to purchase a studio and a one bedroom may be “reasonable” compared to similarly sized 2 bedroom units, but the fees and assessments and maintenance end up being more than they would be for the two bedroom unit.
The construction cost to combine two apartments, including the removal of one kitchen, may also raise the initial price to eliminate any savings.
10
@Nancy Rockford
It doesnt work that way. 3 and 4 BR apartment median prices are skewed because a high percentage of them are located in the fancier buildings or on the side of the building facing the river or park. Hence the higher price per square foot overall for the larger units. If comparing apples to apples, a 2-bedroom in an established coop generally has a lower monthly maintenance than the sum of 2 studios. People do sometimes combine apartments but because maintenance is also combined that makes it somewhat uncommon. If it happens it's usually when someone loves where they live and the next door neighbor is selling.
3
Just get out. So many great places to live throughout the country, safer, cleaner, more affordable, less stressful, better traffic, and still with access to just about everything.
11
like where? Minneapolis? no thanks.
6
I see you didn’t mention employment and job options. The cheap places are usually low in that regard
8
Sounds like auctions are coming . In a previous article in the NYTimes they said approximately 30% of new condos built. were empty since 2013 . Even if they end up being rented after paying the tax and cc charges an investor can earn 1% return . If so many luxury condos and coops become rentals since very few can afford these high prices the rental market will weaken and auctions will follow. In addition Cuomo wants to do know the identities of the LLC that bought these overpriced condos and in the future those washing money through luxury condo prices will have their true identities shown I see auctions unless the mortgage tax deduction is brought back in full. The majority of buyers even with a 50% discount in price will not be able to afford the common charges and taxes. Auctions are coming. Record stock prices , low interest rates try prices are down about 20% to 33%.
7
Including that Sutton place apartment in the article was wrong because it is not representative of the market. The building is on a land lease so the maintenance charges are so high that the apartment is basically unsellable at any price.
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@Mike s I was looking at the photos of that Sutton Place beauty and saying: what!? what!!
Now, thanks to you, I know what.
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@Mike s Good to know. I was drooling over that price!
5
Not true. The nearby Excelsior is subject to a very onerous land lease but not this one. And, for those carping about the assessment - added to the price of the apartment and you get a two bedroom for $617,000.
6
How many times have I heard the line that more units will bring prices down, supply-demand 101, yaddayaddayadda. And, wow, watch those prices tumble all the way down to $1.5 for a 2bdr. Duly noted.
63
And in case you haven't heard, tax cuts for the wealthy will lead to great job creation too !
21
@Deborah Giattina I mean, yes? Supply rose, so the price of two-bedroom units dropped by 8% YoY! Would you prefer to restrict the supply and see 2BR units selling for $2 MM or even more (like they do in San Francisco)?
5
@InMN
Tax cuts are to save taxes for those of us who pay the majority of taxes.
Unfortunately, it seems that the 'net' cost of ownership hasn't really changed at all. The drop in sale price is only offset by absurd maintenance and common charges. The sellers know this; thus, the inducement to lower their asking prices.
No, the market for 2-bedrooms hasn't improved. It just hasn't gone radically further up.
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@David Bartlett
To afford a $1.5 M, median, 2br Manhattan co-op, you would want to be making a bare minimum of around $275k annually, pre-tax. Bare minimum. That will put you in the top 2% of households for the greater NYC area, by income. And income won't do it alone. You will need wealth, too, to write that check for $300,000 for the down payment.
So yes - when the NYTimes talks about a buyer's market, they mean that people in the *gasp!* top 2% can afford an apartment now. It's like - does being in the 1% not even, you know, *matter* anymore?
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@Glen More realistic with a two income household.
5
It would be interesting for NYTimes to do a profile of HFDC coop buyers. The combination of income caps + no limits on prices + being hard to finance with a mortgage means that this is now a realm of trust fund babies and wealthy retirees, i.e. not the (lower) middle class buyers that these coops were intended for. The HFDC coops are also getting a break on taxes, so the tab is being picked up by families stretching to buy at market prices.
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@Jimmy I wholeheartedly agree. As a 60yr old self-employed attorney that nets within the HDFC guidelines, I was rejected from an HDFC rental on the UWS (perfectly located and near my client base) because my income fell slightly below the target number in one of the three reviewed years. The management company official I interviewed with commented that it would be great to have a non-trust funder in the building but...
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@Diana
There is no leeway, at all, in the HDFC income limits. The coop board should not be blamed for this. That said, I have owned an HDFC on the UWS and will say that, having watched it and neighboring ones develop over the years, there is some age discrimination. The coop boards want the trust-fund kids. They tend to regard middle-aged applicants with the same disdain that they often regard the rent-stabilized tenants who kept their apartments when the buildings went coop.
35
@Diana HDFCs have income caps/ceilings by law, and all co-ops have income minimums (a threshhold where the applicant is not at risk of default on mortgage and maintenance). If you were rejected because your income was too low, then you were too risky for a co-op in general. That has nothing to do with HDFCs.
2
As a potential buyer that has looked at over 40 NYC properties, I've walked away from all of them due to excessively high maintenance fees. Sometimes the fees are higher than the mortgage. Most of these buildings are mismanaged financially. Although the allure of NYC is nice, the city isnt what it used to be. There are now Duane Reades, banks, or insurance companies on every block. Many NYC areas just arent worth living in and have no character. I'd rather fund a 401k than throw my money away on maintenance fees. I'll take the train into NYC here and there for walks in central park. Other than that, theres just no need being there.
203
The city certainly isn't what it used to be. It's become reconstructed to cater to the domestic and international millionaire/billionaire set. Neighborhoods loosing their distinct colorful identity and characteristics with the imposition of national chain stores. Signifying all that people once left their home towns to come to New York to get away from.
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@Rose I totally agree. The chain stores have taken over. There's just no need to be in NYC anymore. I live on Long Island and I'm amazed that the same TD Banks, Walgreens, and Chipotles now just litter the city. The only difference is that on Long Island I can drive comfortably and find parking everywhere I go, yet in the city getting around is a complete mess. The transit system is beyond repair. It looks the exact same as when it was depicted in the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze. No updates or anything. I'd rather be on the beaches in Miami eating good food and drinking Margaritas.
38
@Independent As someone who lived in NYC in the 80's,and had always hoped to return, I could not agree more. NYC has lost much of it's edge. With the new high-rises littering Broadway, and relentless construction of even more, there is no longer a sunny side of the street, and finding unique shops is increasingly difficult. Central Park is better than ever, but it's one of the few things that is free in the city. The art is still great, but most artists can no longer afford to live there.
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The income-restricted apartment costs $325,000. The highest income allowed to buy there is a family of three making $67,000 or less.
A family living on that wage, in NYC, will somehow have to save a full year's salary while living in NYC just to make the down payment - not to mention the closing costs and co-op fees in escrow. If that family somehow *did* trip and fall into a pile of lottery money to get started, the mortgage and condo fees would still be 40% of their PRE TAX monthly income, before any assessments or any bills were paid.
This apartment will go to a kid with a rich mommy and daddy who can gift the down payment (or the whole cost) while they kick around for a few years in a low-paid culture job of some kind.
But it's great that we have stuff like this to help those trust fund babies get started out in life and build intragenerational wealth.
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@Glen that’s exactly true. I know only two people who got affordable condos in the SF Bay Area . One is the offspring of a former mayor . The other one qualified based on their contributions to the community but that was a Herculean effort not repeatable for the average mortal.
We need to return to the government building public housing for everyone
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@Dani Weber I don't think we ever had that scenario.
9
@Glen The Hunt column profiled exactly this scenario (a young girl with wealthy parents) a couple of years ago.
17
I wrote in an earlier post that the apartment in Sutton Place was on a land lease. I was mistaken , that was a similarly priced apartment in the area. I have seen the listing of the apartment in question and though there are unique circumstances it looks like it could be a good deal for the right person.
8
You people need to bring any job for which you can telecommute up here to Vermont. Just 3 years ago, my husband and I bought a 2800Sq Ft historic home on 3 acres for $175K. Then the owner sold us the 8 acres across the road, so we bought the view for another $25K. We also own a barn, a garage, and a woodshed, for a total of 4 buildings. And our place is not really unique - there are many properties for sale, as some retire to move to Florida, but if skiing is your thing, or you just want safe, clean living, where everyone watches out for everyone else, you need to come here. This past week, we had a very high windstorm, which tore down our flag which hung next to the front door. Someone driving by noticed this, stopped, retrieved the flag,and reinstalled it for us - all without our noticing. It just seemed the right thing for them to do. Such is life here in Vermont.
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Last week I was bowled over by The Inheritance on Broadway. Such is life in nyc.
4
@Mpp1
The top three things that determine the value of real estate are as follows; location, location, location. Besides Ben & Jerry's, what else does Vermont offer?
4
@Mpp1 -
How long does it take you to get to Lincoln Center?
6
I'm not too surprised that this article ignores how tax policy is finally strangling the golden goose of bigger earnings in woke places like New York City and New Jersey.
I lived in NJ for 11 years and bridled under increasing taxes that coincided with fatter pay and benefits packages for unionized government workers. The value of our homes plummeted and are still in decline after 14 years.
I left NJ before selling a business for millions, and avoided the 10.75% NJ state tax along the way. I lost hundreds of thousands on the sale of my home, but more than made it up in tax savings.
It's amazing that high tax Canada is a relative haven compared to NJ and NYC. As they say, go woke, go broke.
14
@Matt
Exactly . Those buying an apartment for 6 million pay about 12,000 a month in taxes and cc charges to stare at an old building across the street. Lol, anyone buying is living in a false reality they get a 3 foot deep pool and a yoga studio. Look for auctions..
Have you ever seen charts on how much states like NY and NJ contribute to the federal government vs what they get back? The opposite is true for low tax states like Florida.
5
You know what John D. Rockefeller said when they asked him how he got so rich? He said he bought his straw hats in the fall. The market is way overvalued (thanks Federal Reserve) and will come down. Remember that municipalities LOVE overpriced real estate - they tax you on assessment. It will come down. Do your best to be prepared.
7
Those are some great deals. I don’t know how people can complain, I mean I work for my fathers graphic design company two or three days a week and make $900,000 a year. You just need to work very hard, be frugal and don’t buy things like the newest version of cars. My weekend Lamborghini is a 2016 model, and my Tesla is one of those gross early models. Mostly I ride my bike from my brown stone to work, although everyone has flexibility now so I sometimes work from home.
Sure sometimes I slurp on the occasional private jet getaway with my girlfriend who is an Instagram influencer, who puts in a brutal 17 hour work week. I don’t know how she does it.
I have cut the hours of my in-house chef to only two nights a week. And I only get massages on the weekends. Just those two things alone probably save me $80,000 a year. So, the average worker just needs to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and stop buying all those fast-food meals which, probably costs like what, $50-75 dollar per meal? That’s why we need a clear thinker like me or a Mayor Pete or Amy Klobuchar to turn things around with common sense solutions and middle-of-the-road pragmatism.
69
You can buy an entire single or multi-family building in Hoboken, NJ for the cost of a two bedroom apartment in NYC. The view is also much better on the other side of the River!
12
@Lee Magadini not really true. You can buy a major fixer brownstone for 1.4 or 1.5 but if you need to renovate you’re looking at well over 2 mil. There are a range of 2 bedrooms in Hoboken, but I’ve found that the decent ones are about a million +. The prices are lower than Manhattan and most of Brownstones Brooklyn and common costs are A LOT lower and that makes a big difference. You also save on the NYC income tax.
3
Square footage of these apartments? Maintenance? Etc
3
Agreed ... and 1 bathroom or 2?
I'm curious. What will these prices get a person in other parts of the US?
3
@Jess Neill
Since you asked - 1.5 million list price gets you 5 bedrooms/4.5 baths , 4700 square feet on a 9100 sq foot lot - 2019 construction and a $550 ANNUAL maintenance fee ( HOA dues in reality). This is in an expensive area of one of Texas' major cities.
Nobody pays list price FYI. Edited Listing includes:
"Beautiful new build by xxxxxx Builders. Safe streets and plenty of kids in the neighborhood, make this an ideal home to raise your family. The over-sized Master Suite features vaulted ceilings, a gorgeous master bathroom, and a huge walk in closet. The kitchen is equipped with Subzero Refrigerator and Wolf Range. The back patio features a fireplace and built-in grill, perfect for entertaining guests."
A "ground lease co-op" is "in between owning your home and renting," wrote Jay Romano in the Times (22 Nov. 1998).
The entire exercise of using a Sutton Place two bed-one bath apartment with a whopping $2800 monthly maintenance and a huge assessment pending, facts widely known through online sales sites, is pointless!
A very small number of co-op buildings don't own their own land. If they do, it pumps up the maintenance, makes mortgages problematic, and get this, seriously depresses their sales prices! Case in point, the Sutton Place example in Mr. Chen's article.
Budget-wise buyers be aware!
If we believe the earlier Times article by Mr. Romano, this hybrid form of ownership-renting is a separate category that this not in the least market-comparable.
Let's stick to apple-to-apples comparisons if we want to provide valid perspectives of the market.
6
If you live in New York City, you are getting ripped off.
7
@M
That depends on what you want from where you live.
An extremely walkable city with mass transit, myriad cultural centers, progressive politics, low crime, and incredible food at your fingertips COULD be worthwhile to many folk.
5
Looks like a one-bedroom posing, with the help of some awkward sheetrock, as a two-bedroom.
14
I would like to invite anyone considering buying a 2 bedroom for over a million to consider moving here to the Midwest. St Louis is a great place for families with many great bedroom communities. Nashville, Madison, Milwaukee, and Kansas City are also nice places. For the same money you can but a five bedroom in one of the top areas
25
@walter Not everyone wants that.
9
How about the jobs in that area?
8
@walter Can't wait to drive my car inside that 5 bedroom :) More seriously there are many places in the world much cheaper than New York, but none are New York City.
19
Sutton place requires a 50% down payment and has maintenance of 2,800 per month.
52
Not sure why the Sutton Place co-op was worthy of such a spotlight, but you omitted a critical piece of information about it: monthly maintenance of nearly $3,000, plus the reader doesn’t know unless she reads the slideshow that there’s a nearly $20k assessment coming up. Without these two pieces of information, it’s a disservice to the reader to suggest that this price drop evidences a weaker market. Find a better example please.
104
The assessment is $17,000. Add that to the purchase price and you get a 2 bedroom for $616,000.
Re the maintenance. It’s $2,800 which is not unreasonable for a well serviced apartment in Manhattan. That means full doorman and porter coverage.
1
The apartment in East Harlem sold to Ms Weber for just about $1 Million (which you can see clearly faces the projects) is ridiculous. The people that live and have lived in that area for many years, if not life, could never afford that. Shameful.
33
@Curious One She'll be sorry once that train going by stops being charming and becomes the nightmare that any New Yorker would avoid.
5
Come on. Some real data please. Taxes, maintenance?
38
That Sutton Place apartment is very charming but for its size, has shockingly high maintenance charges!
19
As long as there is foreign cash available SF and NY will be for sale. Developers build for the international luxury market not for the locals. When I drive in the neighborhoods of these cities at night and see so many darkened windows I know that there is not full time residents living there. My question is where are the city officials protecting their residents? Why pimp your city out like this?
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@Intheknow
Alternatively, people who can afford multi-million-dollar apartments tend to work late hours and don't get to spend much time at home.
9
@Intheknow Most of those apartments are snapped up by American multimillionaires and billionaires, who like their foreign counterparts, are eager to invest their money into safe and profitable assets like NYC real estate. Do they live full-time there? Nah. They've either declared a low-tax state as their full-time residence or are constantly jetting from place to place. Just look at Hollywood A-listers who are always selling and buying apartments in the city. Very few of them actually live in New York.
28
@GL yup. You can add our president to that list. Not that New Yorkers are terribly sorry to see him go. But that gold encrusted penthouse is indeed empty most of the year.
5
When home prices rise 5 percent each year, you are living for free because you can recover your mortgage payments, fees, taxes and Realtor costs through capital gains. When prices drop 5 percent each year, housing is prohibitively expensive.
4
@Rick You're only rich on paper until you sell or pull out cash with a refi.
6
Let me know when the average drops to $1.4, then I'll stock up.
24
Median 2BR sale price is $1.5 million, yet there's one at just $600 thousand on Sutton Place? I guess it must be literally just two bedrooms. Bathrooms, kitchen and living room are extra.
8
@ejb the pictures very clearly show a charming living room, dining room and kitchen
1
@ejb Other commentators have said that including this listing is misleading, as it has other "issues" - such as monthly fees of nearly $3k.
12
@ejb Read the comments above. The monthly maintenance is close to $3000 per month. I was also temporarily gob-smacked.
7
Not doable for most Americans.
The more people that refuse to buy at these greedy, inflated prices, the lower the prices will fall.
28
As many have pointed out, this is nuts. 1.5 million for 2 bedrooms. So if you have a family with 2 kids, the kids can share a bedroom, and all you need to do is come up with $300000 down payments, and then what, $6000 a month before maintenance of taxes? So $9000 a month maybe? Or more. Which would require an income of upwards of 300K a year to possibly afford it. Really way more than that, if you want to have any money to do anything else besides sit in your empty apartment.
73
Sounds pretty tough. I guess the market in NYC would be enough to force just about anybody to move to Florida.
23
And guess what the average working man or family can never afford these prices. What a world we have created... a world for the few not the many. This is sickening.
63
Oh, you mean is down from three gazillion to maybe 2 1/2 gazillion; Wow that’s a deal I’ll buy it right now!
39
Wow! All I need now is a million five hundred...and 15 thousand.
15
Here is a small example of what is wrong with the NY Times, even when it tries to be, if not woke, at least conscious:
"Yes, prices are still out of reach for many New Yorkers . . ."
No, prices are still out of reach for MOST New Yorkers, in fact for the overwhelming majority. (Median household income in the city in 2017 was around $57,000.)
92
@George And yet, there are tons of sales in my neighborhood, Forest Hills, that are all cash. So, yes, many people are still doing well, but it is partially the Asian culture (which is quickly becoming the majority in the local demographics), with both sets of parents donating the full price or the entire down payment, for young marrieds. Tech and finance workers are not making 57k a year; they are making around 125k a year in mid-level positions. So for a couple, it is easily affordable to purchase a 500k apartment in my area.
1
What role do Chinese national buyers and STR VRBO investors have on this “downturn”?
20
New York City housing is the biggest rip off in the entire United States... wel,l maybe now San Francisco is also in the running.
20
@Sojourner Truth
San Francisco housing is more insane by far actually. I grew up in NY and now live here in the Bay Area, and the prices are shocking. When I think about my plan to move home to NY before settling down, one of the major factors is the significantly cheaper housing cost - which sounds ridiculous to say, but is true.
32
New York City, particularly Manhattan, has always been identified as an expensive place in which to live. San Francisco now owns that distinction. This article reports the median household income, 2017, in Manhattan was $79,781 versus San Francisco which in 2019 was $96,285. More significantly telling is what has come to define middle class income in San Francisco. Middle income range in that city is calculated at $64,177 to $192,530. Yes, an individual can earn almost $200,000 a year and be considered middle class in the city by The Bay.
The government itself, its department of Housing and Urban Development, HUD, defines an individual living in San Francisco earning $82,000 a year as "low income."
Starts people looking at a city that once seemed financially out of reach, thinking, "I'll take Manhattan."
25
@Rose Manhattan is much larger than SF proper and includes much less expensive areas such as Harlem, Washington Heights and Inwood. So in an apples-to-(big)-apples comparison, say, Pacific Heights vs. TriBeCa, NYC is far and away more expensive on a per square foot basis.
16
@Ed I live in Harlem. You should take a look at home prices there. Not much cheaper than the rest of Manhattan. That's such a myth that people keep promoting.
17
@Ed I live in Harlem. You should take a look at home prices there. Not much cheaper than the rest of Manhattan. That's such a myth that people keep promoting.
Zillow.com says "The median list price per square foot in Harlem is $987, which is higher than the New York average of $673."
8
Yes, Sutton Place apartment prices are unbelievably affordable and tempting now. Saw a few very nice and spacious one bedroom with doormen and friendly, professional staffs for $400K range. My dream of living in Manhattan could become true! Then learned about the common charges of $2000 or more and even with 70% financing that I can easily afford, I'd better stay renting or looking else where in Queens across the river....
75
@Shari Gresh You are exactly right. People tend to ignore the monthly common charges part of equation. It is not just the units themselves cost more, but also the taxes and other charges. Adding it all up, Manhattan is a very expensive place to live.
36
@Shari Gresh Check out Forest Hills. Maintenance is easily between $800 to $1200 on a two-bedroom.
2
if you don't have help from family members and you are mid-income you are still not able to afford to buy a home. Best example are HDFC buildings that sell a 3-bedroom apartment for $800,000 and a family of two cannot make more than $154,000 and often less than that. With such an income it is impossible to have $200,000 down payment AND the required reserve.
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@xyz HDFC's, for the most part, only make sense for individuals with low income and high assets, e.g. retirees, trust fund kids, those with inherited money, etc. who can afford to pay cash or with very little financing. It's not a very fair system.
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As the market continues to decline it will become harder for new developers to hide behind concessions and discounts to make sales. Most buyers start their search by filtering by prices and size, If something is too far outside their budget they won't even look at it. While concessions work in the short term to get buyers to look at something which is close to their budget, in the long term as concessions get larger developers will need to actually drop their prices or their sales traffic will drop even faster.
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So prices have gone from exceedingly unaffordable to slightly-less-exceedingly unaffordable for most people. "Flagging real estate market," indeed.
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So the median income buyer can comfortably afford a $360k apartment. And yet the median studio apartment is $483k, and the median 1br is $830k. How do any of these absurd prices, let alone prices for 2br apartments, indicate a buyers market?
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Another reason why some of these 2 bdrm apartments are "cheap" - the other carrying costs.
The Sutton Place 2 bdrm has a monthly maintenance charge of $2800. It also requires 50% financing.
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Plus 17,000 In assessment charges brings it to 4,200 a month
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@Hugo You need to look at the maintenance of other two bedroom apartments: $2800 is CHEAP.
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@Hugo Wouldn't it be nice if all papers, including our beloved NY Times included such relevant points, rather than the more attention-drawing *2 bedroom in Sutton Place $599k!* line.
On a side note, I'd like to see a piece on how many hours are wasted by NYers seeking apts in Craigslist, Streeteasy, and other sites looking at 2bd or 3bd apts that are actually 1 bedroom. I once went to see a 3 bedroom place that the CitiHabitats agent swore was "at least 2 bedrooms" - turned out to be a studio.
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It’s not even in the price of the apartment, it’s the taxes and all of the other monthly fees that make it unlivable for most.
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