In a more political rather than obscenely criminal manner, Boris Johnson is doing to the U.K.'s wellbeing what Trump is doing to the U.S. by playing on nationalistic fears. It is also similar to the Netanyahu debacle including pandering to religious extremism, just like Trump has done with evangelicals in this country.
Democracies around the world are under attack and a third of this country is clueless and its Republican Party contemptible for its lack of ethics, patriotism and spine.
64
This is getting old. The Brits can’t make up their minds. They want out, but not really. I wish the E.U. would reduce their choices to two options. Either accept the negotiated deal or hold another referendum. My preferred choice would be a simple in or out. Pick one and act accordingly. But I know that’s a pipe dream.
23
It is a pipe dream because of Northern Ireland. Ireland remains in the EU but Northern Ireland will leave with the UK. The Good Friday agreement included open border to Ireland and is vital for peace.
There you are: The problem is unsolvable given the constraints.
2
How many times must the British repeat that they no longer want to leave the European Union?
Mr Johnson, you have only one honourable exit from this situation: to call for another referendum and leave the last word to the people. That is what happens in democracies.
And please do not say that there has already been a referendum, because, as my grandmother always used to say, only idiots never change their minds.
54
The Conservatives will want an election and not another referendum. With Labour suffering under a very poor leader the Conservatives will win an election. Another referendum will likely result in a vote to stay.
If Labour members truly want to stay in the EU they'll need to get a new leader. There is no way Corbyn will ever be PM.
68
@Andrew Reid
I agree 1000%. Labor must get rid of Jeremy Corbyn NOW. Why on earth do they hold on to a man that unpopular and who does not represent any real alternative to Boris Johnson?
17
@Andrew Reid The only people bashing Corbyn or who are not willing to vote for Corbyn are voters who are willing to accept Boris Johnson as the PM for the next five years along with five more years of dismantling of the social safety net. If you don’t want Boris Johnson as your PM, Corbyn is your only legitimate choice, whether you like it or not.
5
@blondiegoodlooks
So Trump, Pence Corbyn Boris. What is the difference between these four? They lie, they are unpopular and the public countries are being destroyed by them. Three are in the back pocket of Russia, Trump,Pence, Boris not sure about Corbyn.
1
If only US lawmakers stood up to our bombastic, self-serving, dishonest leader the way members of Parliament have...
102
They need a second referendum, outlying the facts which were not known before, it’s not democracy if the people are lied to. There should be an overwhelming majority to leave,60-75% otherwise Brexit gets cancelled. If such a majority is reached, politicians must then get it done within a month, so this nightmare can be over with.
127
@Colin christian
After three years, by all means, have a referendum and what ever the results, live with it, and move on!
6
Both Labor and the Tories ran on a platform promising to implement the referendum.
@plages
Just like Health Care, want to move on? get rid of the GOP here and get rid of Boris.
5
The last poll referred to in the Wash. Post, if I remember correctly, said that 17% wanted a no-deal Brexit, 30% wanted a deal Brexit, and 38% wanted Remain, so Brexit still has a majority; and latest polls show a big Tory lead, again a product of pro-Brexit feeling in the UK. Let's also not forget the huge victory the Brexit party won in the recent European elections.
In 2016 the victory margin for Brexit was actually more impressive than the 52-48 popular vote. 406 UK Parliamentary constituencies voted Leave while only 242 voted Remain (which shows how weighty the London Remain vote was, while Leave triumphed outside of London.) 148 Labour seats voted Leave, while only 84 voted Remain! 247 Tory seats voted Leave, while only 80 voted Remain. 9 UK regions voted Leave while only 3 voted Remain.
As one can see, a very sizeable number of Remainers in Parliament are voting against the wishes of the constituents who sent them there, are still disregarding the polls which show a pro-Brexit majority, and ignoring the most recent UK-wide election (the European Parliament election) which was a Brexit party triumph.
Contrary to press reports, often by reporters who were not in the UK in 2016, the issues and arguments before the voters were very much the same as they are today. The government at the time ran a fear campaign listing everything that would go wrong if Leave won, but the people decided to restore the UK's full sovereignty by voting Leave.
Why are the headlines always phrased as “Boris loses vote etc...”?and not “parliament yet again undermines P.M.”?
A subtle difference, but it seems to me that it is the British Parliament that is determined to overturn the majority referendum result.
The only answer of course is that the media barons want to Remain themselves and are backing the City of London to the hilt. Whilst there are many arguments for both sides, I would have thought sovereignty and self-determination on migration critical and everything else can be sorted out, as detailed by the Swiss/British citizen below.
@Kay You could not be further from the truth regarding the 'media barons' - practically all UK media is pro Brexit.
The argument most thrown out there from Brexiteers is that Parliament is ignoring “the will of the people”. The obvious problem with that argument is that the people have long since realized the sham they were sold and many have demanded a second referendum. This is legal under UK law, but various leaders have refused to grant it because they know it’s likely to end with a Remain vote.
The “no do-overs” argument is particularly rich considering how many times Conservatives have suggested new Parliamentary elections to try and bolster their majority in hopes of finally passing their vision for leaving the EU.
It’s clear the facts were distorted prior to the original Brexit vote and that nobody had the foresight to think about the ramifications for Northern Ireland. Trying to force a Brexit deal without truly addressing the needs of the Irish on both sides of the border is arrogant and dangerous.
9
Where's Tony Hancock when we need him? He would really make this even funnier than it already is.
As a US/Swiss citizen, I voted with the majority to not join the EU back in the 1990s. We were told at the time that vote would be the end of the nation, the economy and we would lose our banking sectors and manufacturing. Worse, we would have no allies left.
The Norwegians have also survived outside of the political EU.
Of course, agreements, compromises and alignments were required because we have close ties with the rest of Europe (the same with other partners) but we maintain our sovereignty and are currently able to vote on any of those proposed agreements we are not the puppets technocrats in Bruxelles would prefer.
How many of the peoples of Europe had/have ANY democratic say today on issues that are important to them, that impact their lives? Not many.
Most EU countries did not allow their people to vote at all.
The UK voted democratically. How is it that Parliament is thwarting the democratic voice of their own people?
4
And so the farce continues ...these politicians are playing with fire,we know most of them are only stalling because they actually want to over turn the referendum result none of their play acting can hide that,i just don't think they realize that if they don't agree to get the legislation through now,if the withdrawal act isnt enact passed and the laws put in place for it now then the Oct 31st deadline we could likely leave with NO DEAL..
Their creating the nightmare they fear most because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation,they seem to believe the Benn withdrawal act will protect them from No Deal Brexit but if the EU doesn't grant an extension to the Oct 31st date then the "default" position is No Deal and there are strong indications that the EU will not extend the date...
2
Those Brits lawmakers are a crafty lot. By giving a "preliminary approval" but nothing to fast track it means amendments are almost inevitable. Ergo, they are having their high tea and drinking it too!
The most rational thing is to put the EU-BoJo agreement to a 2nd referendum vote so the voters, including the N Ireland and Scotland folks, know what they are getting. However, the BREXIT true believers and the UKIP reactionaries are not going to accept it because they know they will lose.
So, would the good folks in the UK starts the BoJo ditch watch :)!
6
The UK needs a second referendum. End of story.
7
@Sarah
How often do the Americans redo a close Presidential or Congressional election just because some have meltdowns when they lose?
2
@Marcia Berg
I'm no expert on US constitutional law, but I think it would have taken a little more legislation and scrutiny in Congress before a forty year plus alliance was dumped.
And Sarah’s comment on a second referendum makes a lot sense when you realise how much bad information was given to us by both sides during the previous referendum.
5
@Marcia Berg
every four years I believe...
So why not allow us to vote?
The referendum contained no specifics and it makes sense to now submit this specific plan to the people. Giving us the chance to vote is hardly undemocratic.
8
It is amazing on how selfish these politicians are. First of all, Russia has been interfering and influencing (along with Trump) the brain dead citizens of the UK. Europe needs the UK and the UK needs Europe. The Conservative Party hasn't been good for the average UK citizen. 50% of the country is owned by 1% of the people. The Conservative Party got the UK involved in our Afghanistan / Iraq mess.
The Labour Party has another lightning rod running it, Jeremy Corbyn. Why doesn't he step aside. He's like Bernie Sanders, too old and too grating. And Jeremy Corbyn comes across as anti-Semitic, too.
We're are in our "Darkest Hour" now. Pearl Harbor was nothing compared to the damage being done by Trump / Republicans. Why hurt yourself?
9
Who knew Brexit would be so hard?
2
@GryphonGal
The only reason it is so difficult is the squabbling over created problems, by those who want to thwart the will of the majority of people who voted for Brexit. It seems that these solo efforts to craft an exit deal might be more palatable if this was done by a committee -- this way more in Parliament would have something at stake to vote in favor of the deal and finally get out of the EU.
2
Boris Johnson’s latest Brexit deal increases the chances that United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would become instead United Kingdom of Great Britain only with Northern Ireland being unified with Ireland, which is part of EU. So United Kingdom of Great Britain would be comprised of only England, Wales and Scotland. Of course, Scotland is heavily anti-Brexit and pro-Remain. So chances of Scotland seceding to become an independent country that is part of EU increases. So United Kingdom will be only England and Wales - Boris Johnson will be PM of that little, rump country. The self-inflicted disaster and stupidity that is Brexit will dismember United Kingdom. The once mighty British Empire, where the sun never set, will be down to England and Wales only. Given Britain’s record of creating borders and disasters that we are still living with - in Ireland, Middle East, Indian subcontinent, other parts of Asia, Africa, Americas, Australasia, and the hundreds of millions killed by or as a result of British colonialism and imperialism, a U.K. destroyed by Brexit seems to be small bit of justice.
Rule, Britannia! The joke!
4
@MC Well first off polls in Scotland still show a majority for staying in the Union so a leave vote might be hard to get,secondly IF Scotland did manage succeed from the Union they would automatically lose their EU status as they would have no treaties with the EU so would have to apply to join,effectively putting them on a no deal status with the EU...
Northern Ireland`s case is different as if they were to join with Eire they would be in the EU as Eire already has treaties with the EU but though them leaving the Union is something that will probably happen eventually in recent polls 70% still wish to stay in the Union of unifying with Eire isnt going to happen soon...
4
@Malcolm You, as obviously a supporter of Brexit, are typically economic with statistics to validate this. Most recent polls put the Scottish Independence question at 'evens', some showing a slight advantage for independence. Recent polling in Ireland showed a 65% support for a unified country and in Northern Ireland there was a significant majority for it. With regard to Scotland's future status with the EU, I think that M.Juncker and M.Tusk, along with the 27 member states, would look favourably on any Scottish application. That will just leave Wales hanging on to England's coat tails.
3
But he WON a big vote!
And 19 Labor MPs joined him. 329 to 299.
First time Commons has approved a Withdrawal Bill.
Yes subject to finalising.
But ahead of anything T May achieved.
Credit where it's due.
2
We can well understand when Boris Johnson was branded arrogant and silly for telling the EU to 'go whistle' over 'extortionate' Brexit divorce bill
It is not as if Boris Johnson is a unique British leader. He is the in the series of UK leaders with a overblown sense of their place in the world and hence led to overplaying their hand with the EU
Boris Johnson is a typical leader in the mould of Thatcher. In his recent book Behind Diplomatic Lines, Patrick Wright, a former head of the UK diplomatic service, provides an illuminating account of Margaret Thatcher’s worldview. The former British premier wanted South Africa to be a “whites-only state”, and believed the Vietnamese boat people should be pushed into the sea before they reached Hong Kong.
The UK’s overblown sense of its place in the world has led to overplaying its hand with the EU
The past 18 months has illustrated the rapid journey from hubris to humiliation.
My country which had suffered humiliating sufferings at the hand of Colonial imperial British arrogance, cannot help viewing the present Brexit turmoil is but a Divine retribution.
7
I visit the U.K. every year. This is truly a fascinating time to be here. Apart from the wonder of listening to politicians using the English language in ways unknown in the States and the pleasure of hearing BBC commentators analyze debate and events in a manner light years from the laughable mutterings of a Hannity, the real pleasure is talking with everyday Brits, both for and against Brexit, whose insight is quite remarkable. Of course Brexit boils down to one reality- RACE. Many older pro Brexit types long for the Britain they once imagined existed, an accepted class riven society of whites unencumbered by the “others”. Those Americans who have ever tuned in to Fox or attended a Trump rally would feel right at home.
10
@Peter Turner I hear this often that Brexit comes down to RACE and for a small percentage of Brexiteers that's true,its a smear that the remainers use all the time,however nearly everyone i know who voted to leave mostly did it for a other reasons, ...really though most people were just tired of being governed by something they never voted to be part of in the first place,we never wanted or signed up for a federalist EU all we ever voted for was to be part of a common market not the United States of Europe...
1
Maybe, Britain should apply to the United States for statehood? Our Congress and their Parliament seem to share a lot in common and neither seems to be able to get much of anything done.
2
@jpduffy3 give DC statehood first. We already have 700 k disenfranchised people in our country.
5
How can this possibly be your headline? He won the critical vote, his deal passed parliament by a surprisingly large majority of 30, he only lost the timetable vote. This is a major win for Brexit and Boris.
@Nick S It is not a 'major win' for Johnson, nor Brexit. The large majority that you quote came courtesy of 19 Labour Party malcontents, hardly a ringing endorsement for his bill. Johnson has committed to 'deliver Brexit' by October 31st or 'die in a ditch'. His ego is his downfall - Brexit will not happen anytime soon, he is effectively powerless in Parliament with no majority for his party and it is not even in his gift to call a general election. The only way out of this morass for the UK is a second referendum.
2
It’s Boris’ only win, so yes, it’s major.
On the other hand, Boris did say he’d rather die in a ditch rather than ask for an extension of Brexit. And yet...
1
Two days before the Brexit referendum my husband and I finally woke up and decided we’d better find out what all the noise was about and which way we would vote.
We read and read and were astounded by the obvious lies the Leave Campaign were spinning, the underhanded tactics being used and the sheer arrogance of a small Island thinking they’d be better off economically alone. What madness!
Add to that that we live in Northern Ireland. We know all about the Good Friday Agreement, and simply could not understand how so many British politicians didn’t even think to consider it an obstacle.
What we have now will surely go down in history as one of the most expensive political miscalculations a country has ever inflicted upon itself. The only way to begin to repair the damage is a second referendum.
13
"delays to a process that the nation has long since wearied of and just wants to see end." What is this assertion based on? Millions of people would like to see this process reversed, however long and whatever that takes.
16
Because respecting the voice of the people is something Parliament cannot accept?
We live in strange times where the few want to decide for all. Can any of this end well for anyone?
@Marcia Berg
Have you ever changed your mind when conditions changed or more information is known?
6
@W. Fulp
Yes I have personally ...
The Swiss people voted to not join the EU in the 90s. Many said the vote would be the end of the nation and its future (proven to be completely untrue), but they did not get to force a second vote.
Should all decisions made through elections be revoted at all times? How often? Until which outcomes?
How often do we "redo" Presidential elections in the US simply because the losers have meltdowns?
The UK is not the US and this is a far bigger issue than a standard US election.
1
With Prime minister Boris Jojnson stubbornly pushing for the Brexit even by sabotaging Britain's parliamentary democracy and scuttlling the legislative process needed to resolve the Brexit dilemma, removal of the PM, either through parliamentary vote or the monarchical intervention, becomes the first priority for the UK to work out at ease the possible alternatives to a sudden and abrupt no deal Brexit.
4
The Leavers demand that they won a vote that mandated Parliament to leave the EU even though unlike some other referendum there was no legal basis to make it binding. It seems that the rascals behind the Brexit campaign, when called to account for the illegal activities claimed that they weren't liable under the law since the Brexit vote was only a "poll" and not an actual election so the statute under which they were charged would not applied- and it worked. Sort of like a patricide asking the judge to give him special consideration as an orphan.
11
Why is anyone surprised. Since the dawn of time politicians have made promised, out of their control, and therefore cannot keep.
1
Who in Parliament is representing the hundreds of thousands demonstrating for a new referendum now that the dire consequences of leaving the EU have become apparent?
22
"Some critics noted that the legislation — which runs to 435 pages, including annexes, and would have profound consequences for the future of the country — was going to have less time for scrutiny in the House of Commons than a recent bill prohibiting the use of wild animals in traveling circuses."
As reported by the Financial Times, the 'traveling circus' legislation addressed the condition of 19 animals. The Withdrawal Agreement will govern the condition of millions in the UK for decades--including the animals--but government seems to feel it deserves less consideration.
That says it all.
16
Sitting in London as I write this. This city is spinning in a world of high commerce. It’s packed, vibrant, expensive, thriving. Construction is going on everywhere. Tourists abound. The workers are Italian, Russian, Scottish, American, Indian — you name it. The restaurant scene is a far cry from old days. The sheer amount of money being spent at ny one time would make your eyes water. In short, this is a world class city that is functioning just fine. For the sake of London and the UK itself, I hope they do another referendum. Boris led the way with lies and I’m glad he’s tasting defeat now. I don’t get to vote but I think the UK would regret leaving, regardless of any agreement.
32
Scotland's and England's public spaces are full to bursting with memorials to war dead, as I discovered when I visited last summer. These wars have been going on for at least as long as the names of their heroes have been carved into the walls of ancient castles and churches. Hundreds of generations.
The point of the "union" part of the European Union and the "united" part of the United Kingdom is clear: stop -- or slow -- these wars. When people trade with one another we coexist and cooperate.
For the life of the world let's hope the EU grants a Brexit extension so the English government in Westminster can get their act together and work for unity.
Wouldn't a five-hundred-year extension be just about right?
22
@Oliver Jones There's no such thing as the English government.
2
The Tories as always are willing to sell out their allies in Northern Ireland. As a citizen of the Republic I should applaud this lying dirty dealing since it could not happen to a more obnoxious group of sectarian bigots. But any hope for real long term peace in NI requires all parties to feel a stake in the peace process. We cannot allow DUP to become cornered rats. This is the moment for real leadership in NI with the goal of protecting the well being of the community as a whole
9
I have been trying to follow this on The Guardian since the referendum vote.
I admit I am lost in the weeds now. I think a lot of voters in the UK are too. What a mess.
However, the Brits do come out and show their feelings.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/gallery/2019/oct/19/thousands-join-peoples-vote-march-london-brexit-second-referendum-in-pictures
Look at the pictures.
Why are Americans not doing the same with the mess you have now?
18
Boris Johnson is minor league compared to the current toxic occupant of the White House.
8
The UK and US political situations are completely locked and alienating by internal division and inability to resolve.
In Europe there is a big movement about the real problems of the world which are many related to the dangerous state of capitalism and its hegemony. For which both the USA who register all their biggest firms in the EU, in Ireland, to cheat and invade the markets without paying any taxes, and the UK who works actively at laundering the money of the USA in the EU and sending it to its half illegal offshore banks in the Caribbean.
Big article in Le Monde this evening about the real situation of the world with the major corporations : Apple, Amazon,Google and Facebook who represent for the first three about 1000 billion dollars each and 500 billions for the 4th one.
then their business volume and their number of workers respectively by the thousands.
Necessity to break that hegemony.
For those who can read french.
Of course such analysis does not exist in the US press.
https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2019/10/22/face-a-la-domination-des-gafa-les-defis-du-demantelement_6016402_3234.html
4
“We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.”
Nancy meet Boris.
6
What's the matter Boris, your lies don't work on parliament the way they did on the general public?
21
A second referendum is inevitable, notwithstanding Brexiteers’ claims and protestations. All recent Parliamentary defeats indicate that there’s no public appetite for Boris Johnson’s proposed radical exit.
12
@Ted
Just to say it again and again: This would be no "second referendum". This would be the first referendum on this issue.
1. The "first referendum" had been simply a non-binding poll on the simple question "Should we stay or should we go?"
The result was close but clear: "Go".
2. Then a properly working government would have had to say: "Alright folks. These are the conditions to leave - Art 50 up and down until everybody in the kingdom could know what this says - so we, politicians and Civil Service will start to negotiate the best deal for Britain with EU immediately. Because we are democrates we are going to hold a binding referendum on this issue when we have hammered out the best possible draft."
But there was no properly working government but a Mr. Cameron and a Ms. May. Both said: "Folks, your decision is mandatory for us. "Brexit means Brexit" so we will trigger Art 50 immediately just to get out as soon as possible. We will come back from Brussels with the best deal Britain has ever made in history, promised!"
3. Now UK came back with the best available deal from their actual bargaining position so this is the FIRST opportunity for a meaningful democratic legally binding referendum on a ready-to-decision topic by just asking "Remain - This deal (there is no other) - No deal".
But the situation has got so messy by a cascade of countless former delusions and mistakes that nobody seems to be able to implement this most simple consequential measure anymore.
2
Will someone just do another election as to whether to stay in the EU or not. By this point, people know what a pain it has been and could still be.
Just because several rich citizens and businesses don't want to come under new upcoming rules changes doesn't mean they'll carry the day with a nationalist tirade.
We Americans will eventually get our house in order then we can all deal with an out of control Turkey and Russia (not to mention Iran and North Korea).
But as to trade I'd like zero tariffs between the US, Australia, Japan, Canada and the EU (sans Turkey).
5
Gotta give the British credit. They have kept trying to put a square peg in round hole for three years now. Most people would have given up and found a more worthwhile task.
27
Wouldn't it be hilarious if after all this BREXIT is cancelled (well except for those who've had their lives upended). It would leave the U.K. with very little power in the EU as they couldn't threaten to walk away again.
And the EU is so annoyed at them that they may rescind some of the special exemptions that Britain has (it's own currency and driving on the left hand side). The average Brit doesn't realise how good they had it in the EU, but if no longer given special treatment they will discover it.
And if BREXIT does go ahead, well the UK will probably break up as Scotland and United Ireland try to rejoin the EU to avoid the economic collapse that will occur when the financial markets of the City move to more suitable pastures in EU member States.
IMHO there are many in the EU who would accept a moderate drop in economic performance just to slap the English. A variation of the "as long as the right people are being hurt worse" motivation of some Trump voters.
History will look back at us and shake it's head in bewilderment.
14
This has nothing to do with which Party holds Office. At the crux of the problem is Brexit. Fear mongering politicians, placing all blame on immigration, and to say, the country is better off, staying away from Associations like the EU. That it should be 'Britain First'.
If Mr. Johnson succeeds in his call for new elections, there should also be another Referendum, for people to vote on 'Stay or Leave ' the EU. To prove his real leadership, Mr. Johnson should arrange to provide education and familiarization on the pros and cons of the country's membership in the EU.
3
@citizen
It is somewhat to do with the party in power. The Conservatives (Tories) have always included a strongly anti-EU faction and the rise of a minor anti-EU party, UKIP, was beginning to pick off their support and MPs.
Cameron was flushed with the success of winning the Scottish referendum and against advice decided an EU referendum would be easy to win (i.e. remain) and kill off the anti-EU group within his own Tory party.
As you note, the leave campaign ran a nasty anti-immigration campaign that promised everything and has subsequently struggled to deliver anything culminating with the election of a PM who would sell his mother for muck.
5
Bannon, Trump, Rove, Cohn, Atwater, Putin, Duarte, Barr, Pence, Giuliani, Bolsonaro, Reagan, Cheney, Erdogan and now little Boris....the list of men who want power for powers sake and to use to inflict pain on those who they deem to be unworthy of the most basic survival needs goes on and on through history. The job of decent people who feel empathy and are concerned about whether or not kids are eating or have health care, etc....is to replace them with our better angels.
32
Cool. I’m planning on travelling into England from the Continent later this year.
I wonder how this Brexit folly will play out on Masterpiece Theater on PBS where the British Empire is still alive and well.
I am an Anglophile by nature and nurture.
My earliest known white European American ancestor was born in London in 1613. Married in Lancaster County the Virginia colony in 1640 where he died in 1670.
His descendants were black African free- persons of color and white European landowners who fought on the side of the rebels during the American Revolution.
7
I was living in London during the Brexit referendum, and BoJo ran away after the vote passed. In a Trumpian way, he didn’t think it would pass so had positioned himself the whole time in what he assumed was the right place to have a dissenting voice without the pressure of leadership.
For all of her faults, at least Theresa May had the chutzpah to step up and lead in a difficult moment. Boris has been calculating his way to PM ever since and now is stumped because he can’t bully his way through.
I feel for everyone in the UK. What a mess.
41
@Eric Please do not feel any sympathy for those whose ignorance, hatred and stubbornness got the UK into this mess.
6
I think staying in the EU is better for them. But... at this point... I will be happy to see them gone. The sooner, the better.
8
BRexit does n it benefit England, the UK, Europe and it's allies including the USA. Who would support it and WHY?
3
@M
At the moment the suggestion is that financial speculators are set to make a fortune from the ups and downs of sterling and the UK economy. People such as Crispin Odey are funding Johnson et al.
1
France has stated that they will not accept an extension. Hard brexit it is.
5
Everyone says another referendum would vote to Stay. This belief is based on the polls. The same polls that predicted Remain would win last time.
Even many Laborites want to Leave. Get on with it!!
1
@Connecticut Yankee
The poll techniques have improved as evidence by their accuracy in the general election we have held since the referendum.
The main issue was demographic representation. Turns out that if you ask on-line questions, you get a younger, more pro-EU pro-Labour set of responses. Once they adjust for that,the polling is accurate. Having said all of that, most polls consistently report a slight majority for remaining in the EU.
As to the idea of "getting on with it" or getting it done, we haven't even begun negotiating the trade deal which will take a decade or more.
You can't spend 40 years building an ever closer trade and societal relationship and then expect it to take no time to dissolve.
3
Hopefully, Boris Johnson has found his preferred ditch for the day after October 31.
28
Maybe U.S. Republicans and British Brexiteers will eventually come to their senses before the damage from the endless lies of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson becomes irreparable.
7
@The Real Mr. Magoo
Maybe they should start their own country somewhere where they can all be miserable together and run each other’s lives.
4
Oh for heaven's sake, it's time for another referendum. So obvious.
The voting public was ill informed and blatantly lied to.
Russia interfered with the first referendum.
28
@Ricardito Resisting
Russia will interfere in any second referendum, as well.
2
Boris Johnson's inept steer wrestling to get Brexit done is seriously dangerous to the economic well being of the UK. Just like Trumps tariff policies are dangerous to the well being of America. There must be a better way of getting rid of political leaders who are a clear and present danger to their citizenry! Johnson is not an elected PM, but a PM appointed by the Tories, and Trump didn't even win the popular vote. No wonder Churchill said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
14
The truth is most of the people that voted for brexit have already died off.
14
@Mons
Probably not most, but it wasn't a very large majority to start with...
I'm quite sure the authors made a mistake. I'm sure they really meant to say, "Vladimir Putin loses a Critical Brexit Vote..."
7
Boris Johnson’s Brexit strategy is to push through a Brexit deal as quickly as possible with the least amount of scrutiny by members of Parliament, fearful that an informed electorate and government would turn against the yet to be carefully read or debated Brexit agreement.
This is not democracy, rather a circumvention of democracy, which is the same strategy that was used to package the ill conceived Brexit pipe dream in the first place.
14
If *another* election is required to try to eke out a majority in Parliament, isn't it much simpler just to have Brexit Referendum 2.0 and see if the public's minds just might have changed over 3 years by 2.5% of votes cast? If they are sick of the idea, just dump Brexit. If they still insist, then everyone will know, and it can finally pass.
(Johnson would prefer the election to undercut the Conservative MP's he canned.)
10
@Speakin4Myself
The most likely outcome for a general election is another hung parliament i.e. one without a majority party. However, the leader of the opposition party is even less popular than Boris Johnson so BlowJo obviously feels it's worth the risk.
The obvious problem is that a general election doesn't actually answer the questions raised by brexit but rather conflates them with a whole set of issues around the type of government the UK might want (big vs small government etc).
& it already been tried once: the Tories called a general election after the referendum explicitly to provide a mandate for brexit and lost their majority as a result.
To answer the issues raised by brexit, it would be sensible and in the best interests of the country to ask the electorate a brexit specific question i.e. a referendum asking whether they approve of the deal suggested but BlowJo is not interested in the best interests of the country, just how own.
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Boris, Trump and Bibi sitting in a tree. I don't have a pithy rhyme... Can we just put the tree into a wood chipper?
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Can the rest of the EU just chuck Britain out into the English Channel rather than the Brits asking to be released from the Union? Just chuck 'em out. They will become begging next year for readmission once they realize that trade bargaining power diminishes exponentially when competing against larger entities.
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I want to understand where Nigel Farrage, member of the EU from the UK, buddy of Orban, of Trump, and others, all received their indoctrination, their belief that fascism is the way forward.
If you want to understand what is happening, "The Road to Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder is an excellent example of how to get there.
What is happening to our Western belief that we are the best system is being challenged on many fronts, and we need to be aware of how we being seduced into believing that fascism, authoritarianism would be better for us.
A major part of this push is the inequality in the countries that are most threatened. USA has now a larger gap between the 1% and the 90% than since the 1920s. However, the people who are most affected by this number, are Trump's most fervent supporters.
A cult is being created here, and I am not sure when, if ever, we will escape from it.
My hope is that we will overcome this era, as we have many others. We all look to the Constitution when we are floundering, and I appreciate that. However, that Constitution assumed that men (and I am not dealing with women here) were honorable. They would act honorably. They fought duels and died for that honor.
The GOP under McConnell has no such honor. They do not believe in the Constitution.
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The EU has bent over backwards, it's time to draw the line that Britian cannot cross. In or out with a drop dead date to make a decision. If can't say stay, then Britian's answer is leave. It's well beyond the time when everyone should already have moved on.
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Oh come on let’s get this over with! Enough with the extensions and fake deadlines. Just set a date and if the Brits haven’t agreed on a deal by then, hard exit. This is exhausting for everybody involved, but particularly for those who didn’t ask for it!
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Basically, Johnson has been trounced. First his clumsy attempt to ram through this terrible piece of legislation in only 2 days of parliamentary debate has failed. This is the most complex piece of law that any of the representatives will have ever seen - 154 pages of dense legalese with twice that number pages of explanatory notes. Despite the government having had it under wraps for a whole year, MPs are getting 72 hours to review it. Johnson hopes they'll miss the very obvious trap - that actually negotiating a trade deal with the EU in the timeframe is impossible - meaning that the Bill is just a licence for the hardliners to crash out of the EU.
Secondly, this is only the Bill's second reading. It's got much less chance of being approved on the third - or being amended to death as well.
Brexit is going to be delayed. Johnson's only chance is to somehow engineer an election - and that's up to Parliament, not him - win a big majority in the house and then dismantle all these pesky Remainer roadblocks. Whether his base can forgive him for breaking his absolute promise to be out on 31 October 'do or die' remains to be seen. Is Brexit' a cult? That too remains to be seen.
Nigel Farage has gone ominously quiet. It's unlikely he's thinking warm thoughts about Boris.
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@nolongeradoc Thanks for your post. But I don't understand: why is it impossible to negotiate a trade deal before the end of 2020? It will just require that Johnson swallow some more camels. I think Farage is quiet, because he just lost his biggest argument: that the EU was desperate to keep the UK in. It turns out that it was more important for them to get Britain out of Northern Ireland. The backstop was dropped, because the treaty already puts the border in the Irish Sea. Even if there is no final trade agreement, Northern Ireland will be subject to the ECJ and the money will have been paid. Those were the last two negotiating cards the UK had, and they have been played. "Crashing out" will be o.k. with Ireland and the EU. This is something the hardliners didn't see coming.
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@Roger Evans
It takes a long time to negotiate trade deals with the EU, probably a decade - just evidence by the history of previous deals. Any concession that the Tories make will be used to beat them up in domestic politics so will be dragged out endlessly.
The UK and EU economy will take a 5-7% hit which given how interconnected we all are these days will impact other countries such as the US.
Northern Ireland will be left subject to EU law without any political representation in the EU.
Paramilitary unionists in Northern Ireland will kick off and people will die both sides of the border - no one should be okay with that.
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I have no doubt that if there is another referendum, Brexit will fail this time. Boris Johnson’s and Nigel Farage’s lies about the supposedly positive effects of Brexit are well known. And the disaster that would occur if Brexit actually takes place is also coming into focus. For just one thing, Brits will lose access to many new drugs in the near future, as major drug makers will do the math and realize it’s not worth seeking approval in the UK. And there are 50 other industries that will have similar issues. So bring on a new referendum.
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We clearly have our hands full here with politicians running amok but I’m continually dismayed by this slow motion catastrophe that is Brexit. Huge mistakes have been made, coupled with false promises, by three conservative governments in a row.
Perhaps no concrete legislation can be agreed upon because following through with this plan is going to be extremely painful, alienate more than half of the population and probably cause a breakup of the U.K.
Turns out it is not good governance to make such momentous decisions on a slim majority of a minority fraction of eligible votes.
The “leavers” are upset their wishes aren’t being followed. But more people want to remain today in light of the new information about the actual costs to society and the false promises that have come to light regarding NHS funding, for instance.
The people should have a binary choice: is Brexit under the best plan ministers can agree upon (i.e. a specific written document) acceptable or not. If not, remain in the E.U. This is an instance where a referendum could be clarifying for everyone.
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On Saturday, more than one million people marched through central London, making enough noise to be heard in the House of Commons. This was only the latest in a long line of hundreds-of-thousands strong anti-Brexit protests in the capital over the past 18 months or so. Pro-Brexit manifestations have been ridiculously small, never more than a few thousand, and most often only a few hundred. You could be forgiven for thinking that the referendum back in June 2016 no longer is an accurate reflection of 'the will of the people' ...
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I disagree with the headline. The key decision today is that there is a majority for the Brexit deal, if the implementing legislation does it correctly. Assuming honesty in the voting--which I think is probable now--Brexit is going to happen. It may not happen on Oct 31, but it will happen then or soon thereafter.
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@Ken Gallant Or maybe not. The EU has made it clear that they are satisfied with the deal they have cut with Johnson. This galls the Brexiters, as one of their chief talking points and indeed, articles of faith, is that the EU would do anything to keep Britain in. The DUP has been sold out, and an Irish dream is about to be achieved: Brits out of Northern Ireland. When the details of the deal have been made clear, Remainers might pick up steam. All great fun, as long as you don't have skin in the game.
@Ken Gallant
No - that's not the way legislation works in UK parliament. The rejection of the initial timetable is more significant than the passing (just) of the deal, bearing in mind that this is not actually a trade deal, just a deal on the terms the UK would leave the EU (settling debts etc)
There is a slight political majority in parliament for a deal, mainly because MPs feel they have to demonstrate a willingness to move forwards to their constituencies.
But each piece of legislation has a number of "readings" and at each reading it can be amended by parliament, or rejected outright, until by the end of the process it looks nothing like the original. It seems likely that any deal will be amended to require the approval of the electorate in a second confirmatory referendum.
@CSadler Isn't the overloading of bills and amendments to legislation what the Americans describe as 'pork barrel'?
There are limits in the Universe. Something can move faster until it reaches the speed of light. Something can get colder until it reaches zero kelvin. Brexit cannot be thrown “further” into disarray.
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@Eric wonderful
He can ask the EU for an extension, or if he prefers he can be dead in a ditch.
Of course he could resign. I'm not holding my breath.
He can call an election which he should win in theory. But my guess is that the newly renamed Sanity Party (previously known as the Liberal Democrats) would take enough constituencies with ~30% of the vote to give the UK a government for the first time since the Brexit vote.
I still hope that if Johnson chickens out and ask for an extension, The EU comes back with at least a year, if not unlimited.
Dan Kravitz
9
@Dan Kravitz
Johnson has already been forced to beg an extension. He did that, with least possible grace, Sunday evening.
It's with the EU at the moment. They WILL agree - they're also likely to finesse the terms and the timing to cause Boris maximum damage.
6
UK needs to stay in the EU. Together they are all stronger.
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@Lupito Havong lived in the UK for 17 yearsd and in The Netherlands for 30 years, your comment mirrors my experiences and beliefs. I am also a US citizen.
I listened to a smug BBC reporter this morning as he proclaimed that Johnson would win in Parliament today. Perhaps he thinks that 50% is a win. I think the only solution is to let the people vote again on leaving the European Union. Why does everybody say that would be so difficult?
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@Charles Lane The reason that a new referendum is so problematic is, that there is no possible wording that Parliament could agree upon. Which questions do you ask? Remain vs. Boris' deal (remainers' choice)? Remain vs. leave (same disaster as last time)? Hard Brexit vs. Boris' deal (Brexiters' choice)? All three? You quickly run into EU law (Article 50 and the transition period) or the terms of the deal itself. Better (and quicker) to hold an election, even though that might also lead to another hung parliament. It would be held in a decisively different climate than the last one when everybody thought the EU was going to dissolve shortly.
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@Roger Evans
Though two stage referenda are hardly unknown or difficult to organise e.g.
If we leave, do you prefer to leave with the government deal or no deal?
Two day's later,
Now you know what leaving looks like, do you want to leave or remain.
And I thought our Congress was dysfunctional. If these people were running the UK in 1939, they would be squabbling over a defensive plan while the Wehrmacht raised the flag over London
26
Actually the UK Parliament was as dysfunctional in the years prior to the Second World War. Hitler not only reacted to what he perceived to be Prime Minister Chamberlain’s appeasement. He was also emboldened by mixed signals coming out of the Parliament. Parliamentarian democracy has been shown time and again to be woefully inadequate in confronting impending crises. There are simply too many cooks in the kitchen with varying recipes for how to get beyond the mess. I am inclined to think that emergency situations are best handled by a strong executive, or in the case of the UK a monarch with actual, short term, political power, who can make and then implement decisions needed to break the jam. The executive, or the monarch, then can go back to their purely ceremonial functions when the crisis has been abated. Our Constitution implicitly acknowledges this “crisis authority” in Presidents, as when, for example, President Lincoln assumed near dictatorial powers in the first months of the American Civil War.
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@RM Isn't that pretty much what happened? Apart from the flag, of course.
@RM
Ron, that's you? well said
1
Boris is like the New York Jets of politics. He must be seeing ghosts by now.
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Boris Johnson is just a literate version of Donald Trump and just as narcissistic, lying, and incompetent. If Johnson was a competent Prime Minister, he would know how to make Parliamentary procedures work for him instead of trying to violate them. Speaker Bercow properly stops attempts to circumvent Parliamentary procedures; it's Bercow's job as Speaker.
It was inevitable that Boris would make a mess of BREXIT. Boris's whole CV showed that he is a lying incompetent whose only goal is personal power.
Boris's followers are totally deluded about what a post BREXIT UK will be able to accomplish. The UK is nothing more than a couple of small islands desperately dependent on imports for necessities like food and medicine. The US imports nothing from the UK that we cannot produce locally. By the time that the vaunted US UK trade agreement is finalized, the UK will be the 51st state in all but name.
Boris is totally incompetent in everything except bamboozling the racist, bigoted, xenophobic Tory minority who voted for him as party leader. Boris happily lied about BREXIT and his supporters bought it just like Trump lied.
Cameron's BREXIT referendum was never intended to be binding. It's time for the MPs to admit that.
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Does anyone seriously doubt that voters would now vote to remain in the E.U.based on the inability of Parliament do the work themselves? If Parliament can't do the job in three years throw it back to the voters.
The only western democracy that looks more inept right now is ours.
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@Tom Q And Putin is toasting Johnson and Trump right now!
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UK Parliament is the "barrier" to Brexit and Boris Johnson is losing his battle like Theresa May.
2
Again, EU, why on earth are you putting up with any of this? Just make it easy for them: DUMP them.
19
As a French citizen living in the US, I often get this question from my American friends: why the European Union?
Well, exactly for this. Because we have no way to kick the Brit’s out. We are now stuck with a “partner” that goes on and off, again and again... When we wrote the texts that would rule our mutual existence, it was just not planned that someone would want out! The essence of the EU is this desire to go forward, to be together and the knowledge that we can’t exist individually. The EU is this wish to live in harmony and move freely, and get to know the neighbors, and study in their country, and work wherever you want within the union, and share some values and, and, and...
The U.K. is in a sad positon, but they made a choice and now we have to defend what’s ours. “Tirez les premiers messieurs les anglais”, you had your chance, i think it’s high time we take the matter in our own hands.
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@FrenchyNYC yep, sure with the brits gone and the French on a leadership position, one can be sure that he EU collapse is near. Just wait till the a Germans get tired of French ideology and stop paying the bills.
2
And thanks to the UK all the talk of other countries leaving has completely gone away.
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Debating 450 pages is an huge exaggeration !
As per UK newspaper Guardian,
"The new Brexit deal is essentially the old Brexit deal with a new chapter on the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland ..... runs to just 15 pages – 64 pages including the annexes "
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@Sam but of course that part is the hard part. It;s "the bridge too far" At the end of the day They won't vote for it as is
1
@Sam Don't know where you got that from. Johnson's 'deal' runs to 154 pages - not 15 - with about double that number pages of footnotes and explanations.
2
Couldn't happen to a nicer guy--Trump's brother-from-another-mother and fellow jonny mop collaborator in Putin's efforts to destroy the Western Alliance.
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The world has gone so insane, no one even comments on Johnson or Trump's hair anymore.
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"Not a good start, Boris."
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I am dazed and confused with our friends across the pond. BJ wins but wait! The Comedy of Errors is apropos . Does no mean no? Does she or doesn't she?
2
Boris Johnson is a clown. If he truly has the best interests of the UK at heart he is also an idiot because Brexit will be bad for the UK and a no-deal Brexit will be a catastrophe for the UK.
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@WZ
He has a lot of female friends, I guess they do not support the Me too movenment
So will he kill himself in a ditch as promised?
Oh wait, Boris is a proven liar.
15
Act like a clown, be treated as a clown, just like your American soul-buddy.
20
The solution is to have a 2nd Referendum, but only after Parliament has passed a Finalized version of Brexit. Let the Citizens of the UK read the 450 Pages of the agreement, which have be do painstakingly negotiated, and make an informed choice on whether or not they want to proceed with Brexit under those specific terms. The voters of the UK should also be aware, that notwithstanding the recent result of the Scottish plebescite, that areas of the UK such as Scotland, Wales, and Northern Island may become strongly inclined towards becoming independent countries, each applying for EU membership. Rump state, anyone?
17
The referendum advised the government (52-48%) that Britain should leave the EU. But Parliament is sovereign and while it may hear advice it does not take instruction from anyone...So far, both major political parties have been seriously damaged by the different views of MP's within them representing Remain and Leave constituencies, as well as ineffectual attempts by their leaders to deal with them. Only the Liberals and Nationalist (SNP and Plaid Cymru) parties have maintained their solidarity. It's not clear that another referendum would resolve much. If another slim majority in favor of Leave resulted why would MP's representing Remain constituencies change their position (because the devil would still remain in the details of any withdrawal agreement later negotiated)? If Remain won, Leavers would cry foul and demand two out of three. A general election focused on the issue of Brexit would require all parties to adopt a clear position and seems the only way to resolve the conflict.
2
At this stage, there should perhaps be a second referendum so that the people of the United Kingdom can select a clear option without political spin from politicians.
Vote to Remain in the EU, or Vote to Leave with Johnson's planned deal.
A No Deal Brexit is not worth considering in a future referendum because (ostensibly) it something that nobody in Parliament or Britain actually wants--because if they did, then what in God's name was all this foofaraw about? I think Britons are weary of the delay and negotiations, so if this deal is really the best that Britain has to offer and can hope fore--something that both the EU and the UK leadership appear to be in agreement on--the people should be allowed to review it and vote.
Of course, there's no guarantee that they'll actually understand the deal they're voting on--but when has that ever stopped Parliament?
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