Too many people in Britain, particularly old people, think that by leaving they can return to the glorious "rule Britannia" past they mostly know only from schoolbooks. The reality is that, if they do leave, they will learn to their sorrow that the past is gone and now they have to live in the real world, alone. So instead of sharing in the prosperity of greater Europe they will have to run in a race with them, a difficult prospect given that by leaving they cut off their own legs. But then it will be too late. Of course the older ones who wanted this will soon die off, leaving the young, who didn't, to suffer the consequences.
127
i wonder if they just wish to be younger. More and more, I translate „I want my country back“ to „I want everything to be the way when I was young - most importantly me.“
14
@John Binkley kinda like the US. Fox viewers/Trump supporters skew old.
15
@John Binkley, it's not old people in general, it's Baby Boomers. The older generation which, unlike the spoiled Boomers, actually lived through the war has been against Brexit from the beginning.
9
So now the Brits get to reap the fruits of the carnage they have visited upon other places in the world. Can you say India & Pakistan? Israel & Palestine? Bloody brilliant. When you are done colonizing the rest of the world, all that's left to do is colonize yourself.
2
The people voted to leave. They are a functioning democracy. To thwart the will of the people is an elitist desire, as was founding the E.U.
If they would let every country vote to leave or stay, almost all would leave. The elites just don’t want real democracy in Europe, look at what Spain is doing to Catalonia.
Why are there no leaders as cool as Vaclev Havel? Slovakia wanted to stop being part of Chechkoslovakia, and he peacefully let them go. Now we have the Chech Republic and Slovakia, no one died. All cool....and, now look at Spain, ready to have another civil war to keep Catalonia. Just darn anti-democratic and just obviously wrong.
16
You are wrong and I find it concerning that the NYT even recommends your comment considering statistics show that it is wrong:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html?amp
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/19/europeans-credit-eu-with-promoting-peace-and-prosperity-but-say-brussels-is-out-of-touch-with-its-citizens/pg_2019-03-19_views-of-the-eu_0-02/
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20190417IPR41755/support-for-eu-remains-at-historically-high-level-despite-sceptics
33
The people were sold a packs of lies, unfortunately, which has been well documented, not least by the £350 million a week emblazoned on the Brexiteers' red bus.
And it's debatable whether direct democracy has any valid place in a "functioning" parliamentary democracy.
A second referendum would be highly appropriate, with Brexit's details and facts as they have emerged over the past few years laid before the people.
But Johnson & Co. (and their Russian supporters) are terrified of a 2nd referendum, hence their unseemly haste. Keeping to the arbitrary 30 Oct. "deadline" is also a function of Johnson's personal political vanity.
34
Seems like their democracy is not functioning perfectly well:
- the people voted to leave,
- they also elected their MPs,
- when presented with 3 different exit deals, the parliament voted against it (supposedly in the interest of the people).
On the “opposite” side, the European Parliament as shown a lot of understanding of the British’s people vote.
A parliament which is criticized as elitist and antidemocratic.
20
One possible future for Britain will be as the world's number one arms trader. Apparently, ethics is not a factor in British government dealings, it is already all about getting money into Britain, if need be by suspension of the legal system. Britain will surely try to copy Switzerland's banking safe heaven. Really ugly, and very very unfriendly, a neighbor nobody wants. The tragedy is that all this was cooked up in the head of the oldest generations, who think Britain should be a world power again.
I can't wait to see the pound crash, when for the first time in my entire life the British pound will trade at its actual worth. Maybe then those Brexiters realize that the long 19th century is over for good. But all my younger British friends are crying tears over a life style that is already sinking rapidly since two years.
The only hope there is is a second referendum.
24
@Lala Still a stronger economy than France though, by a long stretch? So why is that if it's such a dumpster fire?
1
@Lala
A review of British history quickly tells us that ethics was never a factor in British government dealings. The Opium War in China. The Mau-Mau in Kenya. The Boer family concentration camps in South Africa. The folly of the Raj. The Sykes-Picot Agreement that still causes mayhem in the Middle East. The UK never had ethics. The slave trade. The list goes on and on. It was never about ethics. It was always about the guns.
14
Maybe it's time the EU kick the Brits out and get on with the post-brexit. At this point, 'limbo' is worse than whatever no deal brexit would deliver -- at least then, the EU could get on with it, and get settled, make new deals with those that want it, etc.
3
It looks to me like the new deal actually just kicks the can down the road. It would be surprising if Parliament supports it. The EU may get their chance to move on, but I think the UK have cooked their own goose. Except of course, for their oligarchs, who are going to make a killing and not pay taxes on it.
4
We voted to go. Glad to get rid of the bureaucratic our of touch EU. Sooner we are out the better.
There will be regulatory divergence with this Bloc sooner or later. Britain is still the most dynamic amongst these sclerotic economies. Low taxes higher growth - here we come.
Can you blame them?
Brexit, the worst decision for Britain since Neville chamberlain's appeasement of hitler. If only there can be another referendum vote... with sanity (remaining in the E U) prevailing.
Sadly and similarly to trump's and republicans false claims and lies, Britons were sold a phony bill of goods full of faked statistics and outright lies regarding the E U and Britain's cost of membership. Boris Johnson and Nigel farrage are two of the biggest perpetrators of those lies. Many millions of UK citizens will suffer for their hubris.
10
EU should just kick them to the curb. Why they are expending any time/effort/resources to in any way coddle this mess of a country is beyond me. Cut ‘em loose.
4
Unfortunately (as a Brit) I agree
1
In Europe, the attitude toward the UK is good riddance.
5
Time for Wales to become Wales!
3
I think the real hero in this mess is Jean-Claude Juncker. He persevered through all the British indecisiveness and delivered the coup de grace when Boris had his back to the wall.
3
Jean Claude here mood. Really?! One more out of touch Brussels bureaucrat. Good riddance
2
The sun finally sets on the British Empire. Once Scotland decamps for the EU, all that will remain is a rump state of folkloric illusions, perhaps with a mop-haired fop still at its helm.
8
R.I.P.:
The United Kingdom of Great Britain: 1707 - 2021
Five years from now there will no longer be a "Britain".
The Scots will likely leave the UK so they can join the EU. What happens then to Ulster is unknown but it wouldn't be a surprise if N. Ireland decided to unite with Scotland.
It would be nice if Scotland kept the Queen as its nominal head of state & thereby maintain ties with the Scot diaspora in Canada, Australia & New Zealand. Maybe that would smooth over some other hard feelings. Maybe not.
To think that Cameron ran on a platform that "a vote for Labor was an existential threat to the Country." God how politicians lie & fail. Cameron will go down in history as having destroyed one of the greatest nations in world history.
It was a nice 300+ year run.
They defeated France in the 2nd 100 years war that included a 25 year hot war against Napoleon.
They colonized a third of the world.
Created some great literature in the 19th century from Austin to Dickens to Shaw.
They stood up to a dangerous Germany twice.
While I know that Russia did most of the fighting & dying in WWII, that war was basically rogue ideologically ruled Civil Code Nations (minus Russia) versus rational Common Law Countries (plus Russia)
They created a remarkable cultural zenith in the last half of the 20th century.
The modern world is basically their invention.
Pity they couldn't organize themselves right for the next 300 years.
Pity they felt they had to self immolate.
Pity
14
Thanks for your confidence in us Tim. You will be proved wrong and soon.
The block that is going to immolate soon is the EU. First the Uk then Greece and on.
1
There is at least some poetic justice in British reactionaries bullying the nation to leave the E.U. for the illusion of "independence" only to find itself becoming little more than a colony of either the E.U. or the U.S. The U.K. economy is only slightly larger than California, but with twice its population. It's just not very productive or competitive. I guess the Tories think that leaving the E.U. will free them to adopt the economic policies of Kansas. Trouble is they'll look like Kansas. Worse because they won't have convenient access to a 300+ million market like Kansas does. Presumably Scotland will leave soon and England will be left to negotiate a take-it-or-leave-it "deal" with the U.S. just to keep the lights on.
10
@Gary FS By creating a hard land border with the Irish Republic the UK will be barred from any trade deal with the US while the Democrats are in control. Nancy Polosi has made this very clear.
2
This would be the first time since Elizabeth I. that Britain would not be in a tight union. Those who complained how uncomfortable it is to not be seated at the head of the table as it was in the EU vs the Empire, will soon enough find out how very uncomfortable it is to not have any table to sit at at all. I am sure it is out of the goodness of his heart and without any business intentions when Donald Trump offers "a deal" to the UK.
You can still read statements about replacing produce from Southern Europe or that needed to go through Europe by importing produce from the Commonwealth, which seems to be seen as the safe harbour.
Yeah, I am sure the crisp lettuce shipped from New Zealand will be a delight.
9
I read somewhere that the public school-educated British toffs have a sense of superiority and they can’t accept living in a community of nations. Cameron, Johnson makes the point.
8
As a strong EU supporter I have been hoping for a hard Brexit (a limited deal or no deal). UK is a liability for the EU, at best and a Trojan horse determined to destroy any semblance of European unity, at worst. The Leave side has succeeded in selling the narrative that the EU is an imperialist power keeping Britain occupied by force. This, obviously false, narrative has already metastasized across the continent and now the centrifugal forces are pulling the club of liberal democracies apart. The EU must demonstrate to the world that UK or any other member state is free to leave. That's why the EU must encourage Brexit and deny any further extensions, deal or no deal.
5
Britain should finally prosper outside the neo liberal restraints and the anti working class strictures of an insular, elitist Brussels - Great Britain will now go global and pursue a democratic and egalitarian path to modernization and economic expansion
3
@paul m Great Britain went on a "path to modernization" when it was a colonial power, plundering resources from its victim countries worldwide.
After Brexit is when the Brits will really feel the pain - having to negotiate for access to markets that it had once owned, without the ease of plundering.
13
Enough already indeed. Don’t we have anything better to worry about than a failed and evil empire fading away from the world stage for good.
Nobody cares if Britain (soon to be England) stays or leaves. They are irrelevant.
10
And if someday, Britain -- or, more likely, England after Scotland, Ireland, and Wales have left the UK and joined the EU-- wants back in, the EU would be within its right to say, "No. You wanted out? You stay out." Or, more likely, say, "Ok, fill out this form and get to the back of the line. Oh, and if we let you in this time, you're adopting the Euro--no more of that garbage about the Pound."
Not that it matters. The UK we know may be coming to an end, destroyed from within. There may be room for gallows humor, but there is nothing to celebrate.
7
Much ado about nothing. If the British were getting such a bad deal, they had since 1960 to renegotiate. What's all the balony about they're getting such a bad deal?
4
I appreciate the polite way the Brits leave the world stage - not like the Germans did.
1
In my conversations concerning Brexit I have had with Brits the glories of the past always comes up. When I bring up the fact that we live in a “What have you done for me lately?” world the conversation ends unpleasantly.
Another theme which comes up are veiled references to “the Germans”. I suppose they recovered from devastation much too successfully, and without knowing their place.
Finally, it would seem that the Etonians wish to reclaim their exalted status, away from the European rabble. And keep the E.U. financial authorities away from their shenanigans. The age old colonial strategy of divide and conquer seems to work on English plowmen as well as it does the wogs.
As Connie Sachs said, “Poor Loves. Trained to Empire, trained to rule the waves. All gone.”. So follows betrayal.
52
@C. Neville: The EU is little more than a retirement club for corrupt and venal (often failed e.g. Neil Kinnock) politicians to continue feathering their own very plush nests at public expense. Too many of the Etonians you speak of were trampling each other to get their snouts in the trough. And it's hard to mention the EU without the Germans - the loudest voice calling the shots there most of the time.
3
@C. Neville
Very impressed with the Connie Sachs quote.
John Le Carre is a genius.
4
Its pretty clear that Britain's time in the Sun is pretty much over. They have squandered a lot. Very much like a rich Great-Grandfather that left them a fortune which has been whittled down to nothing after the 3rd or 4th generation.
Things will be different now. Britain will be just a small to middling power, running cap in hand to the EU, China, the US looking for "a deal", ANY deal to make them relevant again.
History will look upon such hubris as a lesson of what NOT to do, when trying to maintain power, influence and relevance.
Soon they will be out in the cold, and will be looking in with pinched noses, like famished urchins at the window, looking in at how their prosperous neighbours are feasting and celebrating while they run around looking for deals.
In the future, Britain will have as much power and influence as Portugal or Greece.
50
@Richard Gordon
Interesting that you mention Greece and Portugal; both countries have had significant "time in the Sun".
Americans would do well to learn from the fates of Britain, Portugal, and Greece.
But we won't.
23
@Richard Gordon the UK will be begging for handouts.
1
Britain never really wanted to be part of the EU or why did they always kept their own currency? They just wanted to tap into all the amenities and subsidies. I'm glad they're finally gone by the end of the month, and in the end it'll be less bad than any so-called pros eher have predicted. And welcome Scotland in the EU ;)
10
Thanks for sharing your clairvoyant insights with us. Can you foresee the Powerball numbers too?
1
My hunch from the last few days is that now the EU has stated that it wants to see the back of the UK, the UK, like a jilted lover, seems to get second thoughts. After having been whining for a divorce for decades, it seems only presently start to realize that it indeed may happen and that a divorce cannot be used as a threat as anymore.
So I wonder about tomorrow. Has there indeed been a reversal, with the EU wanting desperately the UK to leave, but the UK suddenly desperately wanting to remain? In spite of the extensive Tory propaganda for leaving of the last few days, I get the feeling that fewer and fewer people are convinced that that is a wise thing to do.
Given the pattern of general indecision, my prediction is that tomorrow night also no decision shall have been made. The can shall simply be kicked further down the road.
8
Johnson meltdown, trump meltdown, maybe these two should form an act.
3
Boris, like his evil twin donald, will finally destroy the UK, the remnants of the Great British Empire. Yes, leave UK! The EU will be better and stronger w/o Britain.
4
After 3 years, I've come to this point too.
UK, I felt sad when you voted to leave but I'd seen how in the past decades you obstructed and opposed the evolution within the EU - with the exception of a fast expansion to the East, hoping that the new members would side with you.
You didn't chose to use the legal possibility offered to limit the Freedom of Movement from those new members as other countries did, yet screamed loudly when Polish, Romanian and Bulgarian workers came to your shores and complained the the EU didn't allow you to control your borders. You could have, you chose not to.
You lapped up all the headlines in the tabloids blaming 'Brussels' for just about everything under the sun, without ever looking beyond at what was really decided - always with the approval of your government. You cheered Farage and Boris Johnson when they lied about the EU and took pride in it when they hurled insults. Even when Farage laughed all the way to the bank because he gets payed for being an MEP who hardly ever shows up, a salary that's being payed by you, UK.
I'm sorry for those in the UK who believe in the EU, see its value and wanted to remain but in the end, please go.
I'm sorry....
22
I’m British and I Agree with every word you’ve written.
10
Now the die is cast. Brexit will happen Oct 31st as everybody is just so tired of this endless comedy of errors. The ringmaster and chief clown, Boris Johnson, will win the Parliament vote for sure and shortly thereafter there will be an election, which will probably see the Conservatives win outright, with a slim but workable majority. Labour cannot win. They are once again being seen as extremist and out of touch with the modern era. Corbyn just wants to fight the old fights all over again. He doesn't realize that the 20th century finished a while ago and the political battles he wants to fight were lost decades ago. Also, his fervid love of Palestinians and concomitant hatred of Israel and the Jews has allowed his judgment to be clouded. He sees anti-Semitism to be a noble cause, so he pretends to be dealing with its infection of the Labour party, all the while secretly enjoying the spectacle.
The UK is almost as messed up as the USA, but it doesn't have a presidency, which may save it from the excesses of Trump-type autocracy.
2
@Anthony Taylor
"....comedy of errors". You are being much too kind here, Anthony; I think the term "fustercluck" (dunno if it'll pass the censors) is rather more fitting!
Agree with you on the rest.
1
Don't blame the EU for wanting Britain 'gone already'. But hey, can't these people walk & chew gum at the same time?
1
Poor tired Old Britain lost its empire. Too bad! We in the United States better be taking lessons. Our forbearance of this fool of a president and decline of the Republican Party shows the weakness of our Republic. In one short presidential term the Republican Party has undermined the respect that we have paid so heavily in national treasure to acquire. Britain's loss was the result of world war 2. We on the contrary are a victim of our own selfishness and shortage of vision. The future of our country is in serious danger, not because of Trump, but because the Republican Party has failed so miserably at playing its loyal part in a two party system.
7
Please skip out of the EU and happily take the consequences of a faltering economy and pound as you're happily reduced to only WTO status in trade with the world. Let the brighter Scotland secede from Great Britain and Northern Ireland unite with Republic of Ireland, both wanting to remain in the EU. Let Britain be reduced to just Wales and England, becoming a weak nation undeserving to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council and is thus removed. After a while Wales may wake up and secede. No more United Kingdom, just England and the Brexiters won the just consequences. Good riddance!
8
When and if they want back in they will be viewed as stupid, petulant and untrustworthy.
Same for the US when we make future treaties, agreements or give our word to allies.
We are both suffering the foolishness of Breitbart, the Mercers, Murdoch et al, Steve Bannon and the ill informed low information voters and their state run TV/internet "news" sources.
17
Once again the ultra Tories of Northern Ireland will find out how little the English people care about them. The pro union people of NI are the most patriotic members of the UK. Union jacks, praise to queen, devotion to the Union is more evident in NI then any other portion of the UK. The ERG ultras and the DUP trashed Mays deal because of the backstop that left the possibility that NI might be stuck in the custom union and the threat of possible border checks on trade. Johnson's deal sets up a customs border in the Irish Sea, and leaves NI in the custom union for 4, possibly eight years.When push came to shove Johnson traded Northern Ireland for a political victory. A large portion of the population of Northern Ireland consider themselves more British then anyone living on the mainland but England will always consider them to be Irish.
7
The situation in Britain mirrors that in the USA, though their fool in charge was elected by the Parliament, same difference kind of. Insisting on positions so inimical to the country’s interests, the big blustering fair haired boys Trump and Johnson create lots of news and controversy for their selfish ends.
2
The European Union is based on the idea that having a supernational organization with bureaucrats not responsible to the people as voters is a good thing. To me someone like an Ursula von der Leyen or Jean Claude Juncker having power over me is anathema. Best wishes to a free and independent United Kingdom.
2
@John Smithson, I'm sorry that is ignorant nonsense.
For your education you might wanna read this:
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-eu-works-who-runs-eu/
In short, every member state is represented and has a voice, and every member state has a veto if it doesn't like a decision. That's democracy right there.
Junker and later Von der Leyen are head of the EU Commission, which like civil servants in the UK or government employees in the U.S. work on legislation which may or may not get approved by the Council and the EU Parliament. So no, Juncker or Von der Leyen have no power over EU citizens.
You would think that in this day and age this wouldn't need explaining, but there are always people who are too lazy to self educate.
10
The European Union is a democratic organisation whose citizens vote in free and fair elections for their choice of Members of European Parliament to represent them.
4
The British people have fallen for the Brexiteer's lies about the benefits of leaving the EU. All to Russia's benefit of course. The best course would be for Britain to hold another election now that the true situation is known.
5
I am an Anglophile. But they must get out of a marriage they had no further interest in.
Enough already. Get out. Leave EU to figure out their “Every closer union” future.
3
The NYT is on a UK bashing, EU propaganda mission, from your Op-Eds to articles like this which don't interview a single British leaver, but make snide, churlish, remarks.
The EU have bulled the UK as they bulled the Irish and Danes to cancel 4 referendum results. As they replaced a democratically elected government in Greece, after the EU's signature policy the EU collapsed the Greek economy, and now threatens the Mediterranean, as antidemocratic governments rise in the east, and populist parties make huge strides in the west.
The future of the UK is uncertain, but at least they have so far respected the outcome of their democracy despite the threats from the EU, that alone speaks volumes, and they are leaving because the EU rejected very sensible reforms that the UK proposed, reforms the EU will have to address before the far right marches further into the halls of their legislatures and Presidential palaces.
6
@James Walker, another one who spews ignorant nonsense.
The EU has beither "bullied" anyone. Both Danes and the Irish voted against the draft of their EU membership in the first round and voted for it after the EU changed the draft to accommodate people's concerns. That's democracy in action right there.
Also, the idea that the EU replace Greece's government is moronic at best. Greece obtained EU membership through falsificated accountings to hide the dire state of their economy. The EU offered them the choice to accept strict financial measures to recover or leave the EU and the Euro zone and get back to the Drachma. Greece decided to stay and now it's on a solid path to recovery, in fact it's growth has outperformed the UK's several time since the Brexit referendum.
As to Britain and democracy, that's illusory. Britain, with its unelected House of Lords or Winner-Takes-It-All FPTP voting system which disfranchises large parts of the voting population, and it's PM which was elected by 0.37% of UK voters it's hardly a bastion of democracy. In addition, by law Britain is a representative democracy where decisions are made from representatives, not "rule of mob" by referendum. The Brexit referendum was non-binding anyways.
Also, in the last 40 years Britain has been shown to be a backstabbing and selfish partner, only interested in furthering its own interest. It already got the largest number of opt-outs from EU initiatives and still wasn't satisfied.
3
"Just leave and suffer for the rest of your lives" is hardly friendly to the majority who wish to remain.
5
I like how Boris Johnson solved this, a true leader.
Dear Britain,
Brexit plays right into Putin’s hands. Our Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi has spoken truth to power and voiced the thoughts of most Americans when she told our fraudulent president, “With you, all roads lead to Putin”.
While we right our own ship of state, we need your help. Help us push back the Russian psycho-front. By canceling Brexit, you can protect England, preserve the United Kingdom and defend Western civilization. Britain can once again become an empire, an empire of the world’s hearts and minds.
I beseech Parliament to reject the latest Brexit deal and hold another referendum. British government leaders need to inform the citizens on the true sources and consequences of Brexit and lead them away from ruin.
3
The future of Britain genuinely worries me. It's so clear that we are shooting ourselves in the foot, the people in power keep telling us that everyone is fed up and wants to leave already but this simply is not the case. The issue with Brexit is obviously how polarizing it is - all the recent polls show that it is still roughly 50/50 on who wants to Remain and who wants to Leave. There is a march tomorrow in London for a second referendeum (called Final Say), let's hope by some miracle we actually get one. I don't even want to get into the fact that I'm from Scotland where 67% of us voted Remain but are being dragged out!
85
@Fraser Kelly
IndyRef 2, coming soon to a polling place near you. Vote YES! An independent Scotland in the EU that I can visit.
8
The strangest assumption by the Tories is the notion that some huge trade deal with the US will emerge and we miraculously replace Europe as Britain's primary market. Britain doesn't have much of anything we need except whisky and we just slapped tariffs on that. Good luck, Britain.
105
' Two people divided by a common language' Winston Churchill on the difference between his American mother and English father.
The sun set on the British Empire in the wake of victory in World War II. But the sun rose on the American and Soviet Empires. Keeping Germany divided and down was their mutual goal.
While keeping buffer states in Europe between them allowed them to fight proxy wars elsewhere. With MAD aka Mutually Assured Destruction deterring and preventing nuclear war.
German reunification has brought it's demographic diplomatic educational socioeconomic science and technology to the edge of natural hegemony. Except for military power including nukes.
The British Empire lives and thrives on Masterpiece Theater on PBS. Along with the majesty of ER II.
4
UK has always been a reluctant member of the European Union and before that the European Market. Of note, UK never changed its currency to the Euro. While living in France, I noticed that the British are not really considered Europeans. They are kind of far off relatives, they are not really cousins. I bet by this point, Europeans are tired of the British drama and of Trump's English twin and cannot wait until they are gone. Europe is not going to miss them much, but it appears that it t will the opposite for the British economy. The sun has set for the UK, thanks God!
7
A new referendum is verboten- not sure why. Three years since that very close vote: too soon.
After Brexit and the hard times it brings someone will propose that GB enter the EU. How many years before they can vote on that? No one knows.
5
@Idiolect
Sorry, but you can't vote until everyone is satisfied with the result. The people of Britain had their chance and they decided. Now they have to live with the consequences, that's just how democracy works!
I am not sure if the divorce terms 'decree nisi' and 'decree absolute' mean the same thing in USA as in UK. If Parliament agrees the Johnson plan we have a decree nisi.
That means a legal agreement in principle to get divorced. After that comes all the hard bargaining. A lot of naïve people will initially heave a sigh of relief only to discover to their horror that the process is just beginning.
It's worth noting that the DUP wanted nothing to do with the Good Friday agreement in Ireland and only accepted it as a fait accompli. Even if this agreement gets through Parliament, do not underestimate the amount of mischief DUP members may cause.
9
Michael Gover, you probably know better than me, but it would seem that the DUP have lost their clout and are unlikely to get it back. In any event, Northern Ireland seems a small part of the Brexit battle and the main part will be more about what affects the remaining 97% of the population.
Everyone quoted in this piece has a negative view of Britain and of of Britain's future outside the EU. Where are the balancing views of those who see Brexit as a positive? Or does Mr Erlanger's Rolodex not contain even one of the 17.4 million people in the UK who voted for it.
6
@Bluntnib I don't think many people on this side of the Atlantic view it as a positive for Britain. I've certainly never heard any convincing arguments from the Leave proponents that make me think it'll lead to anything but increased isolation and irrelevance and possibly the dissolution of the union. 17.4 million people can be (and probably were) wrong.
6
@Bluntnib I'll bite - what are the positives?
3
@Bluntnib
Having followed the whole Brexit mess closely from 'across the pond', I've yet to hear (or read about) from anyone who's actually put into words what the positive side of Brexit would be at the end of the day. Why don't you enlighten us, so that we can evaluate what actually the point of all of this is. Other than, we don't like anyone except the British and everyone just go away. You're about to have your wish it seems.
4
Britain doesn't have much to bring to the European table. The UK is 70% services & 30% manufacturing. All of the services - particularly the financial ones - can be done elsewhere in the EU. The UK's biggest exports are oil & gas, pharmaceutics, tobacco & alcoholic beverages. The EU and the rest of the world are competitively well stocked in all of these. So Britain can go back to being a little island off the coast of Europe. It will still be a nice place to visit, to see its old historical sites, visit museums, watch royalty whilst they parade around, and partake in fox hunts.
32
@Joe Miksis The fact is the expertise or indeed quality of life in London in unmatched anywhere else in Europe. Hence why there is no great bankers' exodus to the cultural wasteland of Frankfurt or the disorder and, frankly, stench of Paris. After the 2008 crash, there were reports of big hitters moving from London to Switzerland where they were all bored rigid and came back!
3
@Bluntnib, London is a great city for non-doms who buy into the housing bubble here to enrich themselves.
And it's true that London was (and still is) the largest banking capital in Europe. But since Brexit, over 400'000 banking jobs are already gone, and this when Brexit hasn't happened yet. The loss of the Banking Passport for the EU is a major hit for the sector, and every bank has plans to move or has already moved most of their EU banking abroad.
As to living standards, I guess you're joking because unless you're a rich oligarch then living standards are pretty poor, in London more so than in the rest of the UK. A lot of the housing stock is old, mostly a variant of the typical victorian terraced house, with very narrow rooms and horrible insulation qualities. There's a reason British buildings are renowned for being like "shoddy garden sheds", because the building standards in this country are absolutely horrible. London, or the UK as a whole, can't compete with the living standard of Germany or Switzerland, it's as simple as that.
1
What Boris and Co are gambling on is that Asia and Africa are where the growth and deals are going to happen. They do not want to be a bit player in the E.U. Call it hubris call it wishful thinking but they want to be a player holding their own cards.
2
@Joe D, actually what Boris and his chumps like Jcob Rees-Moog are counting is to avoid the EU's new rules on tax havens, and for that Britain must be out of the EU when the new regulations come in place. After all, Britain is the global money launderer for oligarchs and dictators around the globe.
5
Parliament will vote down this deal. Jeremy Corbyn and labour do not want to leave and will continue to vote against any deal. Additionally, corbyn aspires to be PM and he needs Brexit to fail to have any chance at it.
The EU needs to just pull the plug and say ok its October 31, you're out.
10
The UK is going to need all the friends it can get if the Gulf Stream shuts down, as predicted, sending it and Northern Europe back to a little ice age.
6
And Russia is doing everything it can to extort the Ukraine by any means necessary to be build gas pipelines that will give sole ownership of gas delivery to Europe.
Not to quibble, but despite what people in England and this article say, Britain is also in "Europe". Maybe not in the EU much longer, but they are certainly part of Europe, if they like it or not.
6
@yapete, maybe geographically Britain is in Europe but at least as England is concerned certainly not mentally.
2
DEAR EU Leaders: How about this for a strategy? When someone says I'm leaving, you graciously hold the door open and say, Thanks for your visit, and then wave goodbye as they step over the threshold into the street, where they walk home alone. No babying, no negotiating, no "oh, please, can't you stay just a wee bit longer."
No. You say you are leaving? Okay, then, no dilly dallying: GO!
It's what grownups do.
7
@mrpotatoheadnot
If only there wasn't some pesky little thing called the 'Good Friday Agreement'.
Without the complications of Northern Ireland and the way that the GFA involves both the Republic of Ireland and the EU to help end the Troubles, the UK would have gone already.
But the supporters of Brexit couldn't be bothered to think about that problem before calling the referendum and dismissed the possible problems that might come up - and did come up.
12
@mrpotatoheadnot When somebody says I'm leaving, and adds that they'd leave with conditions but cannot give you the conditions, and threatens you if you do not acknowledge them, you make sure that they give you back the key before leaving, and you make sure that you lock the door behind them.
11
I hope Boris wins the vote in Parliament tomorrow and we can finally exit with a deal.
6
Everybody is sick of "Great" Britains recalcitrance. Let them do it. Time to get on with more important issues.
8
When a nation with the word 'Great' dithers for over a thousand days on an issue that was based on a subterfuge mirage and a drip, drip-sort of economic suicide one can only contemplate the 'Uganda principles'. Pure madness. As an earlier commenter notes, outside of London, the UK is in a sorry state. The universal response is always... it's all these foreigners!!!
13
As Dr. Seuss might have put it, the EU is saying "United Kingdom will you please go now."
5
To quote Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks:
“How can I miss you when you won't go away?”
10
@Paul Pavlis
Or in the immortal words of Little Feat “If the phone don’t ring, you’ll know it’s me.”
What a hot mess.
The Bear and Panda have not even begun to seriously mess around with London. And Boris Johnson is leader.
Hmm, I wonder what could go wrong.
11
I find it difficult to understand that the majority in Britain want to leave. The populists are taking everyone done a dead end road. This is an example of how those who didn't vote in this ridiculous referendum are going to pay the price that we already see in the exodus of so many corporations. Good luck Britain with Boris' pipe dream. Putin although is pleased.
74
I just read on Bloomberg that the conservative DUP in Northern Ireland will reject the deal. The stated reason is the cash flow problems caused by having to pay tariffs on goods from the UK up front before those tariffs are refunded to businesses in Northern Ireland if the goods do not cross into independent Ireland. If I remember correctly, a similar financing change in how credit card companies treated airline tickets combined with a spike in fuel prices to bankrupt Columbus-based Skybus (the full airfare was delayed in that case, not just a portion to cover taxes).
It is very difficult to see this working well without the full UK in the customs union.
11
Alan, the objects of the DUP are more political than practical. Practical problems can be addressed and solved, and sweeteners were offered the DUP. But they insist on a veto right rather than a majority vote and other things that the EU was never going to give on.
Northern Ireland is about 3%of the UK's population, and a drain on the treasury. Realpolitik suggests that the political influence of the DUP would wane once the Theresa May coalition evaporated. That appears to have happened.
2
The forces behind Brexit simply want to get the EU out of decisions in the U.K. so the U.K. equivalent of the 1/4 percent can run the U.K. to suit themselves. Northern Ireland is of no consequence to them. Boris is their man.
10
I think Boris's version of the May Deal is an ideal way for the UK to leave the EU without disrupting all its existing European trade, and all the diplomatic relationships that those entail.
I applauded Parliament for defeating May's Deal, as the consent mechanism regarding the backstop was a precipitous sacrifice of national sovereignty.
The May Plan was somewhat correctly characterized as a No-Brexit Deal, but the Johnson correction gives them time and breathing space to continue to work out the details of all the trade-related compromises that that entails. It may take years, but it is far better than unilateral secession, which historically ends in chaos.
3
@Sequel
Unilateral secession would not end in chaos. As many people have already said (and ignored) a Brexit deal doesn't mean that they have to there is nothing in place, a limbo that just halts trade. It just reverts to the deals that were before 2007.
This hysteria is similar to the NAFTA re-negotiations. If the US backs out of NAFTA and walks away, WTO agreements become enforced. That's what existed before NAFTA was negotiated.
2
Britaindid not join the EU in 2007, and would this be the WTO that Trump’s always screaming at?
1
@Robert
The EU as it exists today legally was created in 2007, because that's when the first parliamentary elections were held. Prior to that there were different arrangements.
Bringing European countries economically closer together has brought incredible stability to the whole continent. In that regard the EEC, now EU, has been a resounding success.
Boris and his followers don't see that and in fact don't care. They're focused on the EU blemishes (of which there are of course many) and too often believe the utter lies Johnson tells, the £350m a week that the country's revered health service will get being a classic example.
There is no £350m a week for the NHS just like there's no trade deals "in the bag" and after this debacle is finalized (because there's no effective opposition to stop this either) there won't be a United Kingdom: Scotland will demand an independence vote (which they'll win) and you can bet that Wales will seek (and get) greater autonomy as well. A united Ireland will take longer but that's surely just a matter of time too. And all because of political infighting amongst the Tories. Utter madness.
40
@Brian
What is "mad" about ethnically, culturally, and historically independent states regaining their self-determination away from Westminster?
Where does it say that it is "best" for the Scots, Irish, Welsh and English to be governed by Westminster?
NHS quibbles aside, the Queen's estate gets €500K/year from Brussels for her "organic farming" racket. Pretty sure the Europeans can use their money more productively for their own citizens than to finance an already overpaid tourist attraction.
6
Always interesting to see the Brits in action. They always felt they were better than the rest of the EU stemming back to the glory days of Empire. They continue to quote that they are the 5th largest economy etc etc, but I venture to guess that much of that is tied to the financial world where London is the gateway to the EU. That has already begun to fade,
Yes, the EU will be glad in many ways to see the posh boy leave and just stop hearing why he never wanted to be there anyway,
Good luck to the UK, another step in the decline of your influence,
54
@Ira Cohen
California's GDP $2.95 trillion
Great Britian's GDP $2.6 trillion
10
Bottom line is to many Europeans go to UK to live.New member countries citizens move on mass to UK.Like we would be ok if all the citizens of Mexico and Canada could move through an open border.Easy to throw arrows at others.
1
@Ira Cohen
Go to Br Britain and ask a few people who was responsible for Hitler's demise. Despite Churchill's constant begging for the US entry into WW11, his constant lobbying for us to enter, all you will get from the British is that They are the European liberators, not the US GIs. In many ways, this is a foolish distinction, since the important thing is Hitler's removal, not who gets credit (we all do), but the British insistence on their primacy in his removal is telling when it comes to Brexit.
2
England's heart was never really in its EU membership. They spurned the Eurozone, probably to good advantage. So Brexit is really not momentous. But it will hurt English consumers with much higher prices for EU products, especially foods. And it will almost certainly bring down the Conservative government.
9
@JONWINDY
English consumers foolishly voted in the majority to leave the EU. They were victims of a disinformation campaign for sure.. but honestly.. I expect the English to be more savvy then to simply gobble down lies.
They deserve everything that happens to them economically. It is the only possible way for them to learn and avoid the next great anti-establishement propaganda driven referendum.
5
It sounds like Boris is OK with having Northern Ireland aligned with Europe economically so long as they are purportedly part of the United Kingdom politically. I wonder if the Scots will decide that this is the best status for themselves. And I wonder if Trump will decide to war on the EU economically and favor the U.K.
7
@Mike Iker
Just a matter of time now.. but it will no longer be a United Kingdom.. just England standing alone. Ireland and Scotland are at some point soon going to conclude they need to break with England completely.
7
I see positive outcomes in re-united Ireland, an independent Scotland, the real possibility of an independent Wales, and a much-diminished England with the chance to prove its doubters wrong. However slim that chance may be.
28
@JFB If there is an eventual "Little England", that some speak of with glee as "enjoying the show", they can look at the vast democratic Anglosphere the English made, and the unmatched constitutional liberalism, industrial and capital modernization, and democratic institutions they spread - not always nicely - throughout the globe.
By all means criticize them for their imperialism in Ireland (well deserved) and elsewhere, but use some intellect to see the many sides of that imperialism, not just your own select self-congratulatory viewpoint which is toned, so it seems with bigotry and hypocrisy. I'm sure the First Nations would agree!
The freedoms you hold so dear were evolved in England.
[As an aside, my ancestors (on both sides of the family) migrated from Ireland during the Famine, so I have no love of the English historically. Intellectually though I can appreciate what they have given the world. I'm not blind to it!]
8
Gore Vidal reminded us on this side of the pond as to the gift England gave to the world. The Magna Carta. The fundamental document of a democratic state.
7
@Adam, you're kidding, right? As far as democracy goes, Britain is a third world class country.
There's of course the unelected House of Lords and the winner-takes-it-all First Past The Post voting system which pretty much disfranchises large parts of the voting population. This is not democracy, this is rule by majority.
Then there is the complete lack of a solid constitutional basis. The Magna Carta isn't a Constitution, and many constitutional issues are dealt with based on precedent, the effects which also became visible during Brexit.
Or how about the fact that the current Premier Minister of Great Britain was voted for by 0.37% of the voting population? Yes, 0.37%.
And while Britain harps on about how great and democratic it is, just across the channel there is true democracy in action, not just within the EU but also in national governments of EU countries which, for most part, have proportional representation which means all but very fringe voters are represented in government.
6
Just amazing to watch both countries in the “special relationship”, Great Britain and the United States, melt down through the self-inflicted wounds of Brexit and Trump - with a little help from Putin, who has reaped tremendous chaos in the West on a very small investment.
Like the EU, which is smartly cutting its losses and moving forward, we need to dispatch Trump as quickly as possible so we can move forward.
Great Britain will be the biggest loser, as this foolish move that diminishes its economy and the lifetime prospects of its younger citizens is permanent.
95
Crucial negotiations with Macedonia and Albania regarding their joining the EU? Really? Nothing better illustrates the stagnation and decay of the EU than it's inability to retain Britain as a member, and it's elevation to the top of it's priority list the possible membership of Macedonia and Albania ( yes, we read that correctly ... Macedonia and Albania ). Britain will be fine. It's Europe I worry abput.
9
@BD
The EU does not have to beg the UK to stay......They will get on perfectly well without them. The UK has been acting like a cat howling at the door wanting out. Once the EU opens that door and they find themselves on the outside looking in the British will be howling to be let back in. The whole situation is an example of what happens when politicians, in cahoots with the media barons, create a fantasy that resonates with the people they are neglecting, by creating a faux enemy and persuading them via lies and false promises that they are in control of their destiny. Now the EU has called their bluff ....
10
@BD This reeks of Cold War-era prejudice against E. Europe. The EU was never meant to be an exclusive, rich-countries-only club. In fact, one of the Union's chief policies has always been European integration, and integrating Macedonia and Albania is just the next step in it. At the very least, EU accession talks pull these countries away from Russian influence.
9
@BD It's no different than civilized, money-making places like California and New York having to be concerned about the votes of backwater money-taking places like Mississippi and Kentucky.
4
The whole mess shows how lies can affect a referendum; spineless politicians are afraid to revisit the issue with truth and a re-vote, and lying leaders not selected by the people, but by the parties continue to dodge facts and serious progress in trade.
25
Tusk really messed up when he granted an extension last spring, when it was very clear that things would only get worse. Now we have the specter of a neoliberal populist government in the UK ahead of us!
What a colossal waste of time for the EU. The Brits take themselves way to seriously and had a lot of nerve to waste everybody’s time like this, when their economy mainly thrives on predatory financial practices fuel by fiat money and debt.
16
@heinrichz Democracy often is a "colossal waste of time"!
3
@heinrichz
Tusk, Barnier, and the EU have handled this very smartly and firmly.
1
@heinrichz If this deal gets passed tomorrow, then how was the extension a waste of time? Apparently, you're quite sure it won't.
1
One sentence: Boris Johnson is playing dirty (to both Britain and Europe) but EU is wary on him too.
7
Both the US and UK (Anglo American World Power) appear to be in meltdown but the power will not fail before the end of this system of things arrives as this world power is to be thrown into the "lake of fire" fully functional.
I was hoping for more specifics in this story rather than how it makes people feel.
11
"The Europeans got the better of the accord."
Surprise? When the EU negotiation approach is a "take no prisoners/scorched earth" and the British political establishment has tried to sabotage the peoples' will for years?
6
@JOHN the EU is merely reflecting the will of its members. There is no love lost for the Brits on the Continent these days. They’ve managed to alienate the Continent.
21
@Imperato The EU is trying to intimidate its members from doing what the British, proud they are a country, did.
27 countries organised in a properly formed and functional union are having no trouble at all making decisions and responding to demands from the brexiting UK.
Meanwhile, the UK 'union', with the interests of only four nations to consider, is flailing about all over the place - because the UK is a dysfunctional tudor-imperial mess and not a proper union.
So basically, after three years of disgrace, the UK is being forced into a deal nobody wants, which, despite concessions Johnson swore he would never make, will be dressed up as a "victory".
To be fair, it is a great deal for German car manufacturers.
This is a complete humiliation. The UK could have been a major player in European construction with France and Germany. Instead hanging to an Empire that has long-gone. Very sad indeed.
But serves them right.
Brexit, everyone gets what nobody wants.
74
@Chris / A great summary in your last sentence Chris!
4
Nathalie Tocci is unfortunately right: the British political system is in a process of meltdown, as shown by that charade of a Queen's speech last week, and by the upending of political fault lines the past three years have revealed.
If a country as apparently stable as the UK can come to this, we should all tread very carefully indeed. Nothing in politics is written in stone, nothing is forever.
20
Lowering taxes and regulations on corporations is not to the benefit of the people of the U.K. It has wreaked havoc here in America where we are fighting for clean energy, affordable healthcare and education, and an end to endless wars and Donald Trump.
It's the same on both sides of the pond--privatization vs the welfare of the people.
31
@betty durso The only difference is that the UK, with its Parliamentary system, has a strong loyal opposition. This opposition, which is currently too strong perhaps, will check any attempt to privatize social institutions - such as the NHS.
The US with its Presidential system has never had a loyal opposition in Congress in the same way. Its founding by an elite minority ('the People') could not afford a loyal opposition (even if they could find one) that may very well have taken them to task for what was in fact an unpopular war.
So despite the current fears of US-driven privatization in Britain post-Brexit, the chances are it would meet with fierce opposition in Parliament.
As an aside, on social service institutions, most right wing conservative politicians in the UK would be the equivalent to left to center democrats in the US.
6
Agree, like Social Security, and Medicare in this country, the NHS is the third rail in British politics, even with its flaws.
1
One of the main reasons why E.U. leadership has been firm and consistent is Britain not being in it.
When they entered, Britain was economically the sick man of Europe but has always lacked the humility to accept other countries as equals in a partnership, QED.
31
As a Briton I'm looking forward to Brexit. The main problem with Europe has been immigration. We are a small country with limited land. The homebuilding since the fall of the Iron Curtain has been relentless. We are now a seriously crowded and congested country. There are huge queues at Doctors Surgeries and hospitals with main people in front of you not speaking English. Much of our farmland and green spaces have been built upon. The air in our cities, and all European cities is heavy with diesel pollution. Brexit could have been avoided if our problems had been addressed when David Cameron asked before the referendum. As it is our labour force has been swamped with immigrants fleeing from poverty in former communist EU states. There is no need to train the British for anything whilst you can enjoy imported labour. We used to pay our University students but now they leave their studies with crippling debts. Europe has been very disappointing for us and I'm glad to leave. I'm quite happy to go there for my holidays though, Europeans themselves are great!
18
@AndyMctavish I hope you get what you want out of Brexit, but it won't be quick I'm sure. I hope the English people won't suffer too much in the meantime. I love England and its culture, and I agree that the big changes you describe are real. However, in my travels there, I've admired how gracefully people have adjusted to the changes. May that continue.
9
@AndyMctavish , if you believe this is to workers' advantage, I fear a bitter awakening awaits.
7
@AndyMctavish Having lived in Cornwall for over 12 years I assure you over crowding is not an issue down there unlike London. However the Cornish enjoyed huge payments from the EU since it qualified as being one of the poorest areas in Europe. Sadly that is now gone and like you, many of the Cornish voted for Brexit because of immigrants even though a dark skinned person is a rarity where I lived. Now the rural areas are faced with even more poverty and wealth disparity now that the UK is no longer on the receiving end of the huge grants from the EU not to mention the importation tariffs. Very sad times for the Cornish. They were duped into voting for a referendum that was enforced with lies. The future is very bleak for the British sadly.
18
3 years of this plus 3 years of Trump. How anyone has remained sane is a mystery.
One positive?
The Orangemen have finally awakened in the cold, clear light of dawn to realize that they are irrelevant and that England would just as soon be rid of them.
23
When you fly into Britain it is clear that it thinks and feels itself a place apart from Europe. And, recognizing the relative shoddiness of middle and lower class life, it is.
28
I think it's fair to say that the EU would have preferred the UK to stay but it is not to be.
I do believe that many in the EU are very happy to be done with Boris Johnson whose earlier career as a tabloid journalist was based on excoriating the EU with half-truths and downright lies.
Theresa May, whatever her faults, was admired and trusted by the EU, Boris Johnson is not. Who could possibly trust a man who announced 3 years ago "We can have our cake and eat it too"?
Those in the UK who just want Brexit "to be done" are in for a rude awakening. Trade negotiations between the UK and the EU will go on for years.
As Yogi Berra famously said, "It ain't over till it's over."
32
For over two centuries Britain has stood alone among current and candidate EU member states in having political stability -- no radical change in form of government, no foreign occupation, in being an independent nation at all, not experiencing either fascism or communism, not to mention the odd civil war. At the same time, Britain and the U.S. have kept the continent from sliding into tyranny.
If one looks at history, it is not surprising that the rest of the EU desperately clings to the stability it provides. The have known, and recently emerged from the abyss. The vast majority of the member states have forms of government younger than I am (born 1946).
Britain, right or wrong or in between, has the historical self confidence not to be terrified to go it alone, as it has done successfully so many times in the past.
As for the current shapeless, bureaucratized, German-dominated continental empire --only time will tell whether it will succeed where Charlemagne and every successor has ignobly failed.
12
@Frank D
At last, comments that reflect on substantial historical context. Good for you.
2
@Frank D
Britain has NOT "gone it alone" for many decades.
They only survived as a nation in the 20th century because the US continued to throw it a lifeline and fight beside it through two world wars. Alone.. Britain would have quickly failed and ceased to be entirely.
7
@Chuck
I see where you are coming from and you could be correct. However, please consider this from an 88yearold Korean War veteran who was 10 on the Day of Infamy.
Germany declared War on us almost right after that attack honoring their pact with Japan. If Churchill failed we would have been alone. We were not so ready for War. The outcome could have been much direr for us. There would have been no D-Day from the White Cliffs of Dover. North Africa would most likely have gone to Rommel. Turkey would have most likely dropped its neutrality and joined the Axis as in WWI and Russia would have been more vulnerable on their southern border from the Germans. Thankfully none of this happened.
7
One can well understand European frustration. I wonder if the last chapter has played out (sorry 'bout that). And at all events, there is a transition period after "leave"—quite a long one until December 2020, if a deal is agreed. At all events, if Johnson wins his first vote ever in parliament (odds on that?), an extension would probably still be needed to iron out details. Sorry 'bout that too, though the British are a very tiresome people. And then there's Scottish independence—chapters 2-15.
17
@Wiltontraveler
It seems that the December 2020 deadline is no longer in place. That’s what an article about what was new in the Johnson’s new deal indicates:
“The most significant changes were new sections on the customs territory of the UK and the movement of goods. A notable removal was a section committing the EU and UK to “endeavour” to conclude a new agreement by 31 December 2020.” ( The Guardian. 10/18/2019)
1
@MavilaO Well, a deal on terms negotiated still keeps Britain in the customs union until December 2020. If there's no agreement reached after that, so be it.
1
Historically the UK has served as a paragon of governance stability. In the span of three years, it’s devolved to the point where it rivals Italy for parliamentary chaos. All of this driven by Russian-sourced social media intervention, followed by a craven and ill-conceived Brexit referendum.
74
@Ed Martin The mess is a consequence of unfettered neoliberal capitalism and the inequality it created and has little to do do with the Russians. Same in the US btw!
5
@Ed Martin I think most blame could be placed at the feet of British right wing press, who have pettled an xenophobic anti EU narative for decades. The kindeling that is burnning now.
32
@Donald
The English tabloids are some of the most irresponsible, dishonest news media in the world, and they are slavish devotees of the billionaire class. It's amazing.
3
Brits are as full of themselves as Americans are. Didn't the antivax thing start there? Matched to our antiunionism it's a tribute to populist amnesia about days not so long past.
49
So, Belfast will boom and all British products will be exported from Northern Ireland??
12
@Greenfish nope...they’ll have to be assembled there after passing the customs border in the Irish Sea.
I would say that this was a pretty crafty move on the part of the Irish Republic's Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar. In order to maintain an Ireland without internal borders, the backstop formula promised only an unending limbo until the "Irish question" is resolved. But with this agreement, Great Britain will begin moving further and further apart from the north of Ireland, while the north strengthens its ties to the Republic. To me, that seems like a pretty obvious formula for the eventual full reunion of the Republic and the north.
77
@CFXK At the forefront of Varadkar's mind was probably how to avert the Troubles from coming back, not the reunification of the island of Ireland.
8
@CFXK
Sometimes something good can come out of absolute folly.
The history of Ireland and Scotland is littered with English induced tragedy.
Both would blossom if they can move completely away from England and more closely align with the EU.
5
@CFXK and breakup of the UK. Scotland voted to remain in the EU. How long will it hang around?
2
My sympathies go to the EU. Britain has way overplayed its hand. It must be quite the adjustment to become a small country after having been an empire 100 years ago. But it seems they tried to negotiate as an empire and got slapped on the wrist by the far more powerful EU. Everyone in the rest of Europe is tired of their nonsense.
464
@Alex Yeah It's pretty difficult for everyone who remembers the empire to adjust. Being over 100 years old it's probably pretty difficult remembering where the bathroom is too.
40
@Kilgallon Maybe the general public, but when Boris came to Australia as Foreign Secretary it felt like being treated as colonials.
His main request was for us to waste some of our (quite lethal) frigates escorting his empty-decked aircraft carrier on a Union Flag-waving exercise against the Chinese, presumably for consumption at home.
It was as if the Fall of Singapore (an event which caused huge resentment toward the UK here) had never happened. He was politely told the situation was difficult enough and we hadn't even done it for the Americans, whose carriers do have planes.
He was also told, but did not seem to want to hear, that we regarded the EU as a more important trading partner.
125
@Alex You should feel bad for Brexiters when they realize they have made the UK into Canada. The junior partner to their largest trading partner.
21
Once again, the Europeans show that they are the adults in the room. Their willingness to renegotiate with Johnson over something that had been settled months ago shows a remarkable flexibility. It reminds me, in many of ways, of their approach to Trump, another bull in a china shop who is happy to knock down the old norms and institutions. They'll flatter Trump (in the case of Macron) or simply stay out of his way (Merkel), knowing they must take the high road in order to preserve the global order. This weekend we should all raise a glass of fine French wine to the EU.
522
@Brian
A majority wish to remain, and will suffer under the new regime.
The REAL REASON for Brexit is so that the super-rich in the UK can escape the mandatory EU reporting of their overseas tax shelters starting in January 2020 (ref: the "Panama Papers").
Even "Captain Brexit", Rees-Mogg, has dodgy overseas tax shelters.
The Brexit conmen are willing to crash the UK economy just to evade taxes by the EU.
181
@Brian
But I am afraid that if this understandable sentiment in Europe continues - Britain, just leave already - the EU will hand Johnson just what we know he really wants, a rip away from Europe and a no deal Brexit. He knows trying to pass this latest deal in Parliament will be very difficult. He can claim that he tried, that an extension will only lead to the same result, and that if (probably when) he wins the next election the UK will leave Europe for good. The adults will have lost.
6
@William , the British rich also want to treat workers poorly, which the EU had put some limits to. Working people in the belligerent "leave" faction will find that the new British "greatness" will be arranged to leave them out.
34
The Old Boys Club gave Johnson the win they denied Prime Minister May. It’s unclear how the Irish Sea Border will be enforced - maybe the Navy on patrol? Seems like an agreement heading for disaster.
15
And now we will finally find out what is the true standing of post-imperial Britain in the world...
14
@rsf We already know based on Brexit itself.
@rsf , I think Boris plans to kneel to Trump (no photos, though) to get the US to pour money and trade their way. He knows--as do all--that flattery from the boys' club will bend him to all kinds of favors. At our expense.
1
I hope the Brits are counting on Donald Trump to get a good trade deal for them. Trade deals are easy. /s/ This is going to be a mess. And right now, the betting seems to be that the Brits are not going to take this deal either.
9
Any trade deal will have to be approved by both houses of Congress first.
2
The EU has tolerated an onslaught of bad-faith negotiating from the U.K. since the infamous referendum authorizing Brexit. It is understandable that they are ready to move on. They protected their nation-states, including Ireland and are not ready to move on. This rational, restrained and in the end; the best deal they could possibly hope to achieve.
For the U.K., their goal appears to have been achieved; a Brexit Deal, not a crash out. It appears to meet what the majority of the U.K. desired.
Or was it?
As the saying goes: Be careful what you wish for, it just might come true. For the Brexiters of the U.K., your wish is about to come true.
26
I’m surprised that the EU has put up with our nonsense for as long as they have. We certainly didn’t deserve such consideration. I’m also appreciative of the Europeans that we have met abroad, who have been sensitive enough not to broach the subject of Brexit, unless we raise it first. I return the favour with Americans re Trump (who never do).
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@Joanne Dean
We put up with it for so long, because we like you and are sad that you want to leave. That referendum in 2016 was like a slap in the face by a family member. It hurt, but it was not the physical, rather the emotional pain that really stung.
Should this new deal pass Parliament, this will mean goodbye for a long time. If you ever change your mind we will gladly welcome you back to our European family.
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@Joanne Dean and we appreciate you not mentioning the elephant in the White House.
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@Active Germ-line Replicator never let the Uk back in. Scotland and Wales are welcome.
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Tomorrow is the big day. As thousands gather in London in protest of Brexit (which has been opposed by a majority in the polls for some time now), Parliament must vote against this new deal.
Then, if anything, Labour must get behind Remain, dispensing with Corbyn if necessary, and align with the other Remain parties in order to achieve a majority.
Then pass legislation for another People’s Vote, have that vote, and with the current majority view hopefully prevailing, be done with this whole unnecessary mess.
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The people who will lose out the most from this deal are the very people who voted for Brexit! The Tories are determined to turn the UK into an economy that takes away workers' rights. As Merkel said, the UK will be turned into "Singapore-on-the-Thames". This is truly a race to the bottom! The people who will benefit from this are the CEOs of large corporations and the élite – the 1%. Heaven help the people who have to work for an hourly rate! Britain is set to become a low-wage economy, with few workers' protections. Many people didn't realise just how much the EU protected them. As the old saying goes: You never miss the water till the well runs dry. Workers are about to find out the verity of this old saying.
If this deal passes through Parliament, it will be a sad day for the United Kingdom.
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@Mark Alexander
Already the Conservatives showed their true colors by initiating, right after gaining power in 2010, the harsh austerity that pushed a large number of Britons into despair and led them to vote, ironically (but with plenty of propaganda help), for Brexit.
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@Thomas Zaslavsky
Yes indeed! Ironic, isn’t it? Cameron and Osborne’s austerity has done a whole lot of damage and very little good to Britain’s economy. The superrich have profited from it handsomely whilst the less well-off have been harmed. We can add to this Cameron’s unwise idea of offering a referendum on the EU to try and heal the rift in the Tory party over the EU question but which actually ended up being projected onto the country. We can see the mess that this done to the nation.
As you say, many of those who voted for Brexit were the very people who suffered from Cameron’s austerity, erroneously blaming the EU for their woes.
It is difficult to see how the divisions in the UK can be healed. Furthermore, it is even more difficult to see how we can thrive going forward.
The EU has done good things for the UK. Many complain that the EU has been telling us what to do. This is not true. What the EU has done is ensure that all EU countries adhere to high standards. If this is meddling, then I’m all for it.
But one of the greatest achievements of the EU to date has been the peace we have seen in Europe post World War II. As we all know, the history of Europe is littered with wars. The EU has ensured that wars are a thing of the past. By bringing our countries closer together, and working together in close co-operation, we have seen peace on our continent. The big question will be now: What will the future hold?
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@Mark Alexander There is no doubt that what is coming is a poorer England. The real question that needs answering is how long will Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland will tolerate English arrogant mismanagement before striking off on their own to join the EU.
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I feel it's time for an actual British voice amongst all of the comments that seem to think we are simply going to vanish if (and it's a big IF) we leave the EU. If Britain leaves the EU with a deal at the end of the month there will be about 10 years of follow up negotiations that shape Britain's future. If we leave without a deal at the end of the month there will be about 12 years of follow up negotiations that will shape Britain's future. If the DUP scupper us leaving at the end of the month (currently quite likely), there will be a general election, then a referendum and frankly who knows?
Is it ever likely that the EU want us to just get on with it? We’re like an errant child that says it wants to leave but doesn’t want it’s bedroom redecorated just in case. Believe me, I and most of fellow Britishers, want us to just get on with it (or just get on with something). Every day I watch more and more taxpayers money being wasted on lies, indecision and misdirection (sound familiar?).
If we leave, the UK will survive. If we don't leave the UK will survive. Despite what some people might think, there are some growing industries here, Britain is not solely reliant on traditional industries and education. In the short term there will (obviously) be an economic hit but in the long term Britain will still be here.
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@Russ my bet is U.K. leaves, and in twenty years time it petitions for re-entry, which will be granted.
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@Vin Ya in 20 years the old people who voted for Brexit will be dead and the saner young people will be in charge. (I'm an old person singing the praises of the young. They deserve better.)
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@Russ
"The UK will survive"? Not as a united kingdom, but as another historical term, like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia... or the USSR.
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Johnson has done an excellent job in neutralising the one-sided "deal" that May signed up to.
The NI "backstop" has been eliminated, so NI can get the best of both worlds in terms of trading agreements, plus the UK citizens in NI continue to benefit from the huge transfer of resources from the rest of the UK which permits them to spend more per capita on social welfare and the national health service than anywhere else in the UK.
Compare this with the poor health care system in the Republic where you have to pay to see your doctor unless you are the poorest of the poor.
In NI, as in the rest of the UK, healthcare is all free at the point of delivery.
I imagine even some US citizens would quite like that.
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@Soracte
Except the backstop hasn't really been eliminated has it? It's just replaced by a permanent hard border between N Ireland and the rest of the UK i.e. broken up the union in order to allow the rest of the UK to race to the bottom in trade deals around healthcare and agriculture.
Less than 5% of Theresa May's deal has been changed and your suggestion that the NHS be used as an example of an improvement just beggars belief.
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@Soracte , I don't think you understand who really wins in this, and who will lose. But it won't take long to find out.
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The departure of such a large member country as Great Britain without an agreement should be very well studied, because despite the political factors involved, we must mainly consider the consequences of endangering the lives of many citizens.
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if the May deal was sacrosanct, why are these changes mere ‘window-dressing’? How is NI having the right to choose to leave the customs union rather than the EU mere ‘window-dressing’? How is having the level the playing field rules no longer legally binding mere ‘window-dressing’?
How does the NYT conclude that only talking to Brussels and EU officials is a reasonable basis on which to write an article about Brexit?
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@Terrence In answer to your question: NI cannot choose to leave the regulatory union with the EU for four years and if they do choose to do it after four years, they need the consent of a majority in Stormont to opt out. In this case they have a two-year span in which to come up with a way to do so which doesn't violate the Good Friday accords.
This deal, which like May's leaved NI in the customs union while kicking the can down the road, was something BoJo called *impossible to accept* only weeks ago...It's still so odious to the DUP that they rejected it immediately.
Hence, window dressing.
That the level playing field rules are not binding is window dressing if you consider that written in at another point is a guarantee that Britain, in order to secure a trade deal with the EU bloc, which outranks it in leverage and is necessary to its survival being the destination for roughly half its exports, must maintain parity in health and safety and worker's rights, etc. etc. Level playing field. Due to proximity/wealth + size of the EU market there is no other trading partner who can replace the EU to the degree that it would be worthwhile to sacrifice those standards. So, it's de facto the result.
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@Terrence
As I understand it, the old backstop was, all of the UK is in the backstop. The new backstop is, only NI is in the backstop. In both cases, it's a temporary deal for the EU, and in both cases, for the EU, it's a fraction of their trade activity and a fraction of their border agreements. NI is tiny economically. Most of the UK will still trade at a disadvantage, so if they're downplaying that, it only plays to Boris Johnson's advantage.
What I don't understand is, if the NI border is going to be left open, what are Brexiteers getting out of this? Brexit refugees will go to NI and immigrants will have a huge loophole to work with, to say nothing of smuggling. It undermines the key things that the Brexit party cares about, doesn't it?
Any opening in a border makes an open border, like any hole in a boat makes a shipwreck. I still see a crash out, and this deal was made to save face basically.
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@Terrence
Less than 5% of May's deal has been rewritten by Johnson. It essentially reverts to the original EU suggested arrangement rejected by May and the DUP as unconstitutional and probably leading to the breakup of the Union itself.
It replaces a backstop (potential) border arrangement with a permanent hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
Northern Ireland has no rights in the new deal: it will be told by Westminster how long the arrangement will be in place. It will be told by the EU what legislation it will have to follow and by the UK how and when the rest of the UK will diverge introducing new rules and regulations for itself.
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I would just like to congratulate the outstanding work carried out by Michel Barnier and the rest of the EU's negotiation team. They delivered steadily over months of hard talks despite the utterly unprofessional and often insulting behaviour of the Brits. Superb.
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@David Couldn't have said it better.
Future historians will be baffled: a once-powerful island nation off the damp, north of Europe decides to make itself poorer by severing ties with its closest and most trusted neighbours.
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@John The UK isn't severing ties with it's neighbours. The UK plans to still talk to them and be friendly with them. It's even trying to strike a deal with them to show that very fact.
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@Russ Lol.
All the 'going to war' talk directed at a baffled Brussels has been decidedly unfriendly, not to mention bizarre.
Trying to strike a deal with the geographically-and-economically-inevitable destination for about half of its exports is not something England will do to be friendly...
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Once Brexit is achieved, Britain will do a Kansas, slashing taxes, wiping out the social safety net and gutting education. I see no scenario where Britain retains any form of auto manufacturing or any other manufacturing. The loss of jobs as the government is defunded combined with the collapse in all things blue collar will leave a seething mass of unemployed misery in its wake.
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@George Campbell
B. Johnson has committed over £2 billion of extra funding to the UK's National Health Service.
I imagine Americans would be delighted to have a leader who demonstrates such support for "socialised" medical care.
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@Soracte Boris has the same track record as Trump when it comes to pledges and commitments. He will say anything, but renege later.
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He can promise to give each UK citizen a unicorn, but that doesn’t mean he can or even wants to. He has said before that he wants the NHS privatized and pay for various services that are currently free.
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Deal or no deal, the train wreck is coming. Down the road, Great Britain will be no more. An independent Scotland is coming. Reunification of Ireland is coming. Little England with, perhaps, Wee Wales attached will be left. And the carnage to the Brit's economy will be epic. Tata!
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Britain has never considered itself part of the rest of Europe. It has always conspired to promote divisions in Europe, supporting one nation or another as opportunities arose. It never accepted Euro and kept the pound as its currency. Given all that history, Brexit is probably the best for all, with or without a deal. It remains to be seen if Britain, now stripped of all its golden geese (colonies around the world), will survive to be a great nation it once was. The expectation that USA will become its big brother and rescue it may or may not be realized.
That said,EU has made a big mistake in its immigration policies. It is extremely difficult to assimilate millions with a different religion, culture and attitudes toward women etc. into once homogeneous nations. The results are now seen in once tranquil countries such as Sweden and Denmark. Instead of allowing mass immigration, EU should try helping these unfortunate people live well in their own countries by helping resolve conflicts peacefully, investing and increasing the standards of living by foreign aid etc. so that they have no reason to migrate.
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@kant I can think of at least one other country out there in the world that successfully integrated "millions with a different religion, culture, and attitudes toward women."
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they are migrating because of climate change. they have no food or water.
this is happening all over the world.
you need to pay more attention.
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@kant The British were wise not to accept the Euro as their form of currency.
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Yet another anti-UK article with the usual follow up comments comparing Boris Johnson with Donald Trump.
As far as I know, Boris Johnson is not making any money for any private commercial interests out of being PM, unlike Trump.
What this piece also omits to point out is that the revised deal concerning Northern Ireland means not only free trade across the border with the Republic but ALSO the ability of the North to participate in free trade deals with the rest of the world along with the rest of the UK.
As for the UK meltdown theory-Germany is currently in technical recession, but the UK's growth rate continues to look pretty good compared to the eurozone, in spite of all the Brexit uncertainty.
Another canard thrown at Johnson is that he leads an anti-immigrant party.
I wonder if the people who state this know that annually there are 3-4 times the number of immigrants legally entering the UK from countries outside the EU compared to EU citizens.
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@Soracte
There are of course quite a few articles in the UK press pointing out how much money Conservative Party donors, in particular the billions brexit "campaigners" such as the financial speculator Odey etc are set to make out of brexit.
Plus you really need to read the deal you're trying to comment upon: Northern Ireland will be tied to the EU with no say in the rules and regulations it must follow. It can't leave this arrangement without permission from Westminster so will be totally disenfranchised. It will not be able to participate equally in any FTAs negotiated by Westminster (the whole point of the hard border between N Ireland and the rest of us).
Surely Germany has not had two quarters contraction so is not in a recession: its economy is outperforming that of the UK (which isn't saying much).
& the criticism of Johnson is not so much that he leads a racist party but that he's actually racist, as exemplified by describing black kids as "piccaninnies" with watermelon smiles and the various examples of anti-muslim tropes he's publicly used.
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@Soracte -- Sounds like everything is coming up roses in the UK.
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If I had to bet on any of the players in this drama coming out ahead in the years to come, I would bet on Ireland, even to the point of their de facto reclaiming the whole of the emerald island. Over the next couple years we can expect to see an EU-driven Renaissance as the Irish and not the English become the English-speaking gatekeepers between the EU and the rest of the English-speaking world. The Irish diaspora in the U.S., for example, remains influential and will continue to be that way for generations.
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@Larry Dickman You might want to revise your assessment when you look at Ireland's debt problem expressed as percentage of GNI, not GDP.
Ireland has the second biggest fiscal deficit of advanced economies.
And this is going to worsen when they cease to be an offshore tax haven for the likes of Google and Apple in 2020.
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@Larry Dickman - Ireland is definitely the winner here. As companies leave England, many are moving to Ireland going from one English speaking country to another, albeit with different accents.
US multinationals who want an English speaking workforce can pop over the Irish Sea and set up shop with little disruption. Bank of America has already left the City and are now in London.
Oh, and the flights between Ireland and the US are slightly shorter. Shannon already has permission as a passport pre-clearance airport so people departing from flights from there do not go through US passport control at JFK and elsewhere.
So, yeah, I agree completely. Ireland will win Brexit more than anyone else.
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So, most of the remaining EU nations, who must unanimously approve any extension, want the UK out now. The EU has urgent other matters to attend to. The UK delegation to the European Parliament has vowed to sabotage other EU business until they force the EU to expel them. EU business overall is suffering from the uncertainty surrounding Brexit.
Yesterday Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission, said in front of BBC cameras that the EU will definitely not grant another extension if the deal is approved by the EU and the UK government (it was a few hours later). He said that any problems that the UK government had with its Parliament was strictly an internal matter for the UK. The reporters, who were clearly surprised, asked for clarification. Juncker repeated what he had said, almost word for word. I believe Michel Barnier was standing in the background and offered no contradiction.
Yet the article then asserts that the EU will grant the UK an extension to have a general election, even though the article admits that such an election is unlikely to resolve the UK's internal stalemate.
Sorry, I know that diplomacy is complicated. Still, this is making my head spin.
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@Grindelwald - The EU wants to avoid a hard Brexit as that would be damaging to the EU, especially as that would require a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and all the problems that would bring.
I think Juncker was telling the UK Parliament to take this deal or else. Just because Parliament has voted against. a no deal Brexit doesn't mean that it won't happen. All the EU has to do is deny the UK another extension and they are gone per Article 50, which the UK triggered.
Parliament has three choices when they vote: Accept the new agreement. Refuse the new agreement and risk an EU triggered hard Brexit. Cancel Brexit entirely and move on.
There really are no other options.
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@Grindelwald Mr Juncker spoke out of turn. Not the Commission President but the ĺeaders of the remaining 27 EU countries decide on granting extension. So there is no contradiction in this reviewed NYT article
Sincerely
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@furnee , you are technically right. However, Juncker was very careful about his words. I have seldom seen diplomats at this level make “mistakes” in what they say. Generally it is hard to get unanimous approval for anything without pressure from the negotiating team.
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Boris Johnson will never get the better of anyone in negotiating for the same reason that Donald Trump won’t: they both believe that whatever they do is perfect. It follows from that that their deals are always the best and a product of forcing the other party to agree to what they want. They can’t lose!
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When the hammer finally goes down and the UK is on its own, the nationalists will soon see how isolationism ruins economies. The easier it is for goods and services and workers to freely move about, the stronger and more resilient economies are. People tend to work together because they literally are together.
Just as we have our isolationist, Donald Trump, who is doing a great job of ruining our nation, Britain has Boris Johnson. His followers love him too.
When the UK finally disconnects from the EU, its member nations will suffer the consequences. Ireland, Wales and Scotland may very well want back in. The UK may break apart and England will left on its own. Then Boris Johnson wil blame everyone else for the debacle. He has a good teacher in Trump.
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@Bruce Rozenblit Ireland is a separate country that will remain in the EU after the UK leaves. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
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@Bruce Rozenblit
I think Boris needed no teaching from Trump, and vice versa. Somehow the U.S. and U.K. have evolved in parallel, with plenty of help from their billionaire classes and their captive politicians and economists. (Never mind Putin; he is a not-insignificant bit player compared to them.)
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@J O'Kelly there's talk in the foreign press on the two Irelands uniting as one to remain in the EU. Maybe economic gain can overcome decades of sectarian violence.
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Boris Johnson is the Donald Trump of Britain and can't be trusted to do anything that does not advance his own self-interests. Hopefully, the leaders of the EU have developed a strategy to strengthen and grow their trading block without the help of Boris Johnson and his gang ne'er-do-wells.
A word of caution about trading blocks like the EU that are fighting to compete with large economies like China, and the US. The EU must work to ensure that unregulated capitalism does not continue its assault on the earth's commons — its atmosphere, oceans and climate system. Adding to the present threats to the earth's commons are two large "trade" agreements currently being negotiated, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (known as TAFTA). These agreements, if enacted, will bring about more deregulation of the commons and provide profit protection to corporations by establishing a corporate dominated trade tribunal.
Therefore, biggest problem facing the EU is the wealth and power of multinational corporations and the world's oligarchs. These powerful groups have shown little interest in the commons, beyond extracting more wealth and power from them. These forces have been very successful in capturing most governments to do their bidding around the world, including that once beacon of democracy the United States. Brexit is important but it's just one aspect of the long game of protecting life on earth.
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@old soldier
the TPP has been enacted without the US -- slightly modified, renamed the CPTPP, and with a few side letters covering environmental and labour topics that the US fought against during initial negotiations.
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@Ed Thanks for the clarification. I guess with all the Trump crimes keeping me distracted I missed that news.
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It's pretty hilarious for Tocci to talk about Britain's "meltdown" when it's the EU that is more at risk of collapsing from its own internal contradictions. All the UK wanted to do is make its own laws and step away from the superstate. How this plays out remains to be seen, but this Leaver is delighted with the deal. Let's put this behind us and get on with addressing the issues that matter.
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@Dan Aquino Right now, it appears that Great Britain isn't even capable of ruling itself. Three years after insisting on leaving they have yet to come up with a plan. Scotland should have split off when they had a chance.
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@Dan - If the UK really wanted to leave, they would have done it by now.
The EU is doing just fine, Poland and Hungary notwithstanding, and will continue to do just fine going forward without the UK.
While the UK is so desperate to leave, Albania, North Macedonia, Moldova, Ukraine and Georgia all want in.
The EU must be doing something right.
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@Dan , mirth at the idea of other people's losses seems common on the right here and in Britain. Perhaps belligerent posturing is attractive to some; that seems clear. The pain you court for yourselves will be nonetheless real, too, and neither hilarious nor easy to escape.
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I’ve watched in horror as the U.K. has gone through a self-destruct phase. Brexit does not just represent an economic “readjustment” but also the dissolution of one of the most important alliances of the past seventy years. It’s understandable that the EU has lost patience with this protracted divorce and, as often happens in a divorce, wants to simply move on. What is not quite understandable, and what points to the failure of the UK political system, is that after overwhelming evidence of hostile outside interference which brought about Brexit, the system is incapable of undoing the error. Of course, this critique applies to the United States as well, thereby making Brexit, from the American perspective, a preview of coming attractions. Eventually the world will say to the US, much like the EU is saying to the UK, leave already.
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Indeed, but at least no one will have to die over Brexit. On our account, the bodies are starting to pile up. UK is just annoying. We are armed and dangerous.
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On the future of the U.K., as the phrase goes, "There will always be an England," but I am not so sure about the "United Kingdom." As I recall, there was a time when the Scots kind of liked the French more than the English. Long live L'Écosse? And do I hear a more extended "A Nation Once Again" coming for Ireland?
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Most people want the UK to leave. . . the planet. At this point in time the US is terrifying, but the UK is just a bowl covered in fruit flies, annoying and not terribly important.
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@Jonny Walker
Bit of a weird description of the world's 6th largest economy.
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@Jonny Walker Many long for Scotland and Wales to gain freedom and allow little England to reclaim its 16 th century borders.
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I’ve always been a remainer. I want us to continue to be in the EU but it’s too late now. Over the past weeks I’ve seen that a reversal would cause utter carnage here and democracy would be dead. We need to leave as orderly as we can.
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