If the earlier tanker attacks were a false flag effort, that failed.
This could make sense as trying the same thing from the other end. Someone who wants to stir conflict with Iran might hit their tanker, expecting Iran to hit back, and so provide what the false flag sought.
Of course, we don't know the first attack was a false flag, any more than we know it wasn't. Nor do we have any information yet on this one.
However, we ought to keep in mind that the world has been manipulated into war by such things before. It has happened in this region too, as for example the lies that preceded the Iraq war.
Until we know better, this possibility must be guarded against.
4
Our interference in Iran when overthrowing their government played a major role in what Iran is today. And now this president for his personal political and economic gain wants to start a war with them? When will this administration start placing America first since this was his campaign slogan; another lie and another war in the Middle East? When will we learn?
7
@Shimar
PNAC - Project for a New American Century - a neocon think tank outlined their vision for an American dominated Middle East decades ago. The US has been going down their list of 'regime changes' - irrespective of which party (Republican or Democratic) was running things.
Sadly PNAC's vision for the region has come to naught. Afghanistan is a lawless source of opium. Iraq is a disaster despite the trillions spent by the US. Syria has been pounded to rubble without changing regimes. Libya - once a stable regime is now a disaster. And despite numerous tries we have yet to get a hot war going with Iran.
The US has spent TRILLIONS, made enemies of millions and left the region a mess. For what?
4
Israel is one. It has been hitting
Iranian targets in Syria. Saudis are
incompetent to make an accurate hit
by tracking Iranian tanker. Their
air force seem to hit wrong targets
in Yemen. It is highly doubtful they
could be so precise in this case
not with one missile but two.
4
There is no evidence that Iran attacked Saudi oil infrastructure. None. It is speculation. I expect the US to condemn this attack against trade and freedom of navigation.
The NYTs us just making stuff up at this point- making statements, without evidence, and portraying those statements as the unimpeachable truth.
The Saudis are brutal terrorists. They support ISIS and Al Queda. Their government attacked the US on 911. But the Saudis bribe our government officials, of both parties, while Iran does not.
5
“The ultimate beneficiary of the attack on the Iranian tanker is the United States. It wants to scuttle the recent tentative steps Saudi Arabia appears to be taking to disengage from the war in Yemen and the US-Israeli axis against Iran and to build bridges of trust with Iran. Another motive is to scuttle any leaning by Saudi Arabia towards more intimate strategic relations with Russia on the eve of President Putin’s visit to Saudi Arabia.” Dr Mamdouh G Salameh, International Oil Economist
6
Trump's failure as an international leader is all over this incident and others before it.
1
No one should be buying Iranian oil. The USA is the world's largest oil producer. We need to advise Iranian oil customers that we will supply their oil need. Give them a rebate as incentive.
Starve Iran until its own people rise up to overthrow their illegitimate, unelected, religious-fanatic dictators.
2
"No one should be buying American oil. Iran produces oil at lower cost without the endless arm twisting sanctions of the global empire. We need to advise American oil customers that we will supply their oil need more cheaply with no need for rebates. Make the US understand no-one wants their empire until its own people rise up to overthrow their illegitimate, unelected, religious-fanatic dictators."
Fixed it for you. Feel better?
2
@MIKEinNYC There is a floor to U.S. oil from shale. Iran can produce oil at far below that floor.
All countries in the region face threats to their security including Iran. In fact Iran at present appears to face greater threats to security than any other country in the region. In the 1980s Iraq invaded Iran. In that war over one million Iranians were killed. The U.S. supported Iraq's invasion of Iran. You can find the pictures of smiling Rumsfeld with his friend Saddam Hussein together in Baghdad.
Rather than doing more stupid stuff like exiting the JCPOA which is working to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons, the U.S. could exercise leadership by calling on the Security Council to help the countries in the region, including Iran, develop a security framework that serves all countries in the region. The result could be saving trillions in taxpayer dollars and no longer having to put young American lives at risk for dumb ideas that do not serve the interests of the American people.
2
Reading this article about who sent 2 missiles into the Iranian oil tanker: Saudi has the capability and weapons to strike back. Reading about experts saying that Saudi Arabia has no strategic value for this attack. They didn't need one, their oil distribution center was attacked. Same when the reporter that was killed in Saudi embassy in Turkey.
1
I know that Trump can get the Iranians and the Saudis to come to a peaceful deal. After all, he wrote "The Art of the Deal" and he has "great and unmatched wisdom". That's how he got the Kurdish people in Syria and the Turks to settle things amicably. The man has vision!
8
Trump’s looking for a distraction from his impeachment.
5
Question: Why was tracking on the tanker Sabiti turned off between mid August until 2 hours after the purported missile strikes?
Usually tracking is turned off if there is some activity that needs to be secretive. The tanker has been tracked moving between Iran and Turkey in the past according to the article. Isn't Turkey bound by NATO rules? Why would an Iranian oil tanker need to go to Turkey?
Why are there so many conflicting accounts from Iran's news sources? At one point even the National Iranian Oil Company dismissed the possibility that the ship was hit by missiles.
Did a missile strike even happen? If so was there any damage? Which tanker was hit and what business was it doing?
Lots are questions here... so lets read between the lines. My take on this.
Asymmetric warfare is in progress. Both sides appear to be working under the same rules of engagement. Pardon me if I'm using "rules of engagement" incorrectly.
8
@Lavanya Reddy -- Sanctions busting by the tanker would be reason enough to turn off tracking.
Sanctions "enforcement" using violence by aggression that is criminal under the Nuremberg principles would then be one alternative explanation of the attack.
I'd hope the US military would refuse to have anything to do with that, but proxies or covert operations certainly would, in fact they exist to do such things. So would some of our "allies" who very openly seek war against Iran.
7
@Mark Thomason So lots of different interests are using proxies for their own ends. It will remain speculation as its unlikely we will find out what did or did not happen. It would be fairly easy for current satellite imaging to pick up an oil spill from a tanker. Whoever aimed at this tanker would know the potential issues. Thank you for replying.
3
@Lavanya Reddy -- I agree that whoever is doing it meant not to get caught. However, over the longer term, even measured in months, they do tend to get caught.
I predict this will be interesting before it is over, and may justify complete outrage before we are done.
I do not predict just exactly what we will find. I wish I knew, but that of course is the point. Knowing what you don't know is of course some measure of wisdom. I await finding out.
4
How about a map? "Just off the west coast of Saudi Arabia" spans 1100 miles.
Why don't we have an aerial view?
9
@Uno Mas -- Within 30 miles of Jeddah port is a lot more exact, and in the article. Google Map will give you as much detail as you could possibly want. Notice, there is no hostile nation near there, just Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and of course Israel's forces operate there.
2
Commentors are rightly questioning whether there was US involvement here. There is something very very wrong happening in the executive branch. It is impossible to trust anything that the administration says and all of its actions are suspect.
What has been striking about recent Giuliani revelations a is that he was trying to use US influence to free a prisoner who was arrested for skirting Iran sanctions by funneling $10B to Iran. trump allowed him to do so from the Oval Office! The same guy who pulled out of the nuclear deal because Iran was such a bad actor was actively trying to free a financial sponsor of Iran.
~A month ago, trump surprised even Bolton when he called for uncharacteristic restraint after KSA accused Iran of firing a missile at a tanker.
What does all this mean? It means that trump is playing a game that makes no sense unless viewed through the lens sheer opportunism, or foreign influence, or both. It would be entirely plausible for this administration to both disparage Iran (for the purposes of motivating the hawks and his idiot base) while contemporaneously protecting Iran in order to support the political/economic gals of Turkey and Russia.
The "man" is a traitor to his country and if he is not removed soon we and the world will pay a price.
12
@Chris Follow the money and who stands to gain from any of his actions - enough of this will help piece together the puzzle of who or the number of who's who are pulling strings and whispering in Trumps ear in order to put into play scenarios from which they profit or benefit in a geo-political way. Trump is too small minded to thing beyond himself and what he gets from his actions, which make him an easy mark for every other international grifter politician and oligarch.
5
@Matt well, since they didn't support us at the storming of Normandy...
8
@Matt. Well said. Bravo!!!
Tit-for-tat. Saudi Arabia. The only people who don’t get it are Americans and Europeans.
And this skirmish is not serious, only two twins squabbling, hoping to get support from abroad but not really caring.
Trust me. When things get serious between Sunni and Shiite, you’ll know.
But for now, it’s a continuation of 700 years of conflict. Another day at the office.
6
@PC
You are probably right.
I fear that our current mis-Administration, may be even more skilled than predecessors at getting the US in the middle or worse . . . which seems to involve providing arms for everyone able to buy.
Remember when GW Bush inadvertently revealed that he didn't even know there were Sunnis and Shias? Trump is less knowledgeable and unpredictable, and fancies chaos.
@PC -- Sunni vs Shiite is like Protestant vs Catholic, a real thing that is often used as an excuse by those with other agenda.
Over those 700 years, they have not fought far more often than they have fought. It has not been 700 years of continuous warfare, nor even the long years of continuous war of Europe's Wars of Religion.
Much of the time, they actually got along rather well. In particular, in Syria's and Saddam's secular worlds there was a lot of intermarriage and many mixed residential neighborhoods.
Fundamentalists of course want us to think their view is the only view, but we don't really need to see the Muslim world the way it is seen by al Qaeda or ISIS.
1
missile noun
Definition of missile (Entry 2 of 2)
: an object (such as a weapon) thrown or projected usually so as to strike something at a distance stones, artillery shells, bullets, and rockets are missiles : such as
Miriam Webster.
No mention of size, type, or damage. It could also have been done by a crew member accidentally with something carried on board for defense. The middle east is littered with missiles of all sorts. All for sale cheap.
5
"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"
Well, something does seem a bit...well...askew with all of this. It is an odd place to launch an attack. First, due to the density of traffic (and the high chance of a friendly fire incident). The USN, RN, and so forth have the capabilities to pick out the right target...but do the usual suspects? Without implying any insult, the facts are that "ʾIn shāʾ Allāh" is not a very effective targeting strategy. Second, if the attack had occurred further south there may have been at least some plausible deniability, by blaming the Yemeni's (attempting to avenge the previous attack on the Kingdom by, well, let's just say Iranian interests, internally or abroad).
If the attack was launched from the Kingdom, one has to wonder "why", since this plays right into Iran's hands. In a rock throwing contest, SA has far more Glass Houses at risk than Iran does. A new and expanded wave of Iranian cruise missile attacks would be devastating to the Kingdom, as well as pretty much unstoppable (OK, you might stop some, but the ones you do not stop will be effective enough). The Iranians may well use this an excuse for a "use them or lose them" tactic for (some of) their missile force (and how much worse will this calculus be in another decade when everyone swaps their 400 kg conventional warheads for 250 KT Nukes?).
Still, right now this is all fog and noise. We all subscribe here to (eventually) get past that. Cheers.
8
This why getting the country and the world off its fossil fuel addiction is important....to stop fueling war and Middle Eastern medieval regimes.
Instead the Gas Oil Petroleum party and its reckless President does everything possible to stir discord, deny science, deny green energy and destroy the soil, air and water with fossil fuel-based pollution.
Elections matter.
The environment matters.
Fossil fuel addiction matters.
November 3 2020
14
Many of the comments show more of an interest in the environment than a possible war.
Have we come to the point where the environment is more important than war.
I ask this only as a question and not a comment.
Today's feeling of this time in history (zeitgeist) makes me unsure if war is more destructive than our current environment.
I really don't know which is an unusual thing to say in these pages. So it's OK to turn up the heat on me.
I've learned at age 90 that i am not a perfect person/.
8
@M.W. Endres I’ve learned a lot in my 78 years also
1
The attack occurred in an area where the Houthis have attacked Saudi vessels. Is it possible that the Houthis didn't realize that this vessel was Iranian ? The missile attack was said to be of low sophistication and another analysis discounted any advantage to Saudi Arabia.
3
With today's modern missile technology, any actor who wishes to disrupt global oil supplies does not have to block the Strait of Hormuz. They can just pick off tankers from many miles away.
This is called asymmetrical warfare. Technology is leveling the battlefield and expanding its borders.
It might be a good idea to stop with all the bluster, the threats, the bullying, and have people actually talk to each other. Otherwise, start shopping for that electric car.
15
@Bruce Rozenblit
Unless you may need to flee a fire in California.
7
Remember when Saddam--in retreat-- lit the oil fields on fire, covering the Middle East in thick black smoke. Oil is now spilling into the Red Sea. Whoever claims victory in this conflict, it will be the earth--once again--that loses.
We don't really deserve this place.
18
The question is,”What was an Iranian tanker doing in the Red Sea?”
With embargoes in place, where was it going?
Very strange and quite possibly a set up....
2
@Lars
The Suez Canal and then Syria would be a reasonable guess.
6
@Lars -- The Suez Canal could lead to many places other than Syria.
Remember the oil smuggling the US bombed that was going into Turkey from ISIS controlled oil fields.
Remember that Sicily and Southern Italy are heavily influenced by their organized crime.
Corsia of France is by its own crime organizations.
North Africa west of Suez has offered every sort of criminality since the Barbary Pirates 200 years ago.
Those ideas are highlights, and highlights of just the Mediterranean shores.
Who in this world would buy cheap oil, illegal but heavily discounted? Maybe the easier question is, "Who wouldn't."
2
The oil isn't illegal anywhere except the US, the rest of the major powers have a signed agreement with Iran that the US broke. The US is the rogue state here, abusing its allies and leveraging its empire to its own unfathomable ends. The nuance is extremely important for Americans to understand clearly. The US is the bad guy here, not Iran.
2
Saudi is helping trump and the EPA out by polluting the oceans that don’t belong to them in addition to the air.
Couldn’t they have done some more productive live seizing the ship instead?
5
This is The Beginning of the Trump Wars
Trump pulling out of the Iranian deal and now what he's done to the Kurds is creating far greater destabilization. Donald Trump is the catalyst of these problems. The sooner he is out of office the safer this planet will be.
34
RE: "and traders are likely to interpret the news about the stricken Iranian ship..."
Oil brokers are ALWAYS looking for reasons to increase prices. Everything is a reason to increase prices. Prices only come down when forced to, and then it starts all over again.
21
@Marie Commodity traders don't care at all if the price goes up or down, they only care about the price moving. Traders make money on volatility, not prices.
4
No one knows who fired the missile but the Saudis will pay a price if Iran determines that the Saudis or the US was involved.
2
@cec
I am sure the Saudis are losing sleep over it right now after your very powerful warning to them. Whatever will they do if Iran determines they were involved? Will you ask the Mullahs to please go easy on them since you have so much insight and influence there? Not even this once?
7
@GregP
Armed conflict is more than just winning, losing, & profiteering. Future dead soldiers of both countries (& their families) may be losing sleep right about now. @cec is stating an opinion & not making an after-the-fact threat, which is far more appropriate in this forum than slinging snark.
1
What about the environmental impact of the oil spill? Has there been any attempt at a clean up?
48
@Jennifer Good point. I can find no news on the oil spill itself here in the region. We get deflected by the political crisis. This environmental disaster should be of primary concern. At least there were no human casualties.
22
@Jennifer
As you know, Trump's EPA is not concerned about pollution or the destruction of the environment. It's only concerned with loosening up profits for his donors.
4
@mja
What you write may generally be true (though I would modify it to say the leadership of Trump's EPA, not all the workers), but what, in any event, does that have to do with any spillage from a foreign tanker in foreign waters? Are you suggesting it is the responsibility of the US and EPA to clean it up?
4
Every time an attack occurs in this region, we doubt the identity of the perpetrators. Lawyers famously are taught, "Everybody lies," but in the toxic stew of today's Middle East today plus the Trump administration, truth has become a scarcer commodity than ever before.
What I do is check what Trump and Pompeo have to say and then write that off as a definite falsehood.
What is certain: the wildlife of the Red Sea, the everyday people paying for oil, the dignity of the United States, and the long-term safety and stability of the region are getting whupped.
109
I still don’t believe Iran launched the attack on the oil fields. There is still no evidence of where the middles were launched. While the middles were made in Iran, the rebels have always used Iranian made weapons. Iran has been supporting the rebels since the war began. However, in the end Iran supported the attack and now finds itself further isolated from the world. The Iranian government denied the oil tanker was hit - the Country wants no Direct conflict with the Saudis or the US. Economic and financial sanctions are doing just fine - no military action is needed.
3
Unless the Iranians are now trying to sink their own ships, this is a Saudi operation, and American missile. Now we will see shrieking talking heads saying more war is ok even as we throw Kurds to the still-smoking winds. Who will the US support? A murderous prince who puts Trump's picture on the wall, and Iran who Trump sees as an Obama legacy (ignoring history again), or the faithful allies, the Kurds. First, the US ditches the Kurds, a new Trump hotel will go up next the Crown Prince's palace and America slimes its way down the rabbit hole of Trump circular lies.
9
SOOO how much oil spilled? How much oceanic Devastation to aquatic life? Which Country or Organization will choose to handle the oil spill cleanup? Sad that the article Forgot to mention these issues and Only focused on boys with toys and boys discussing such toys and the Devastation to their pockets.
17
Are we surprised that “missiles” are flying around the Red Sea? It is not impossible the missile was manufactured in the USA.
6
@Kirk Cornwell
True ... it is not impossible ... way to say nothing though.
6
@Kirk Cornwell Remember the "tanker wars" of the 1980's and the French Exocet missiles??
1
@Dan Ryan -- Remember too that when French Exocet missiles were used by Iraq to attack the USN, the US then attacked the navy of Iran, while giving diplomatic cover to the ones who actually did kill Americans and near sink the USN ship.
That reminds me of the USS Liberty, so it is not a one off weird event.
1
To be clear, the Saudis are not the "good guys" here. They are allied with the U.S. (a former "good guy", pre-Trump) and Israel (also allied with Trump). Saudis promise to buy U.S. weapons. Trump likes this.
The Saudis are likely responsible for this direct attack on Iran, with American help. They have an animus against Iran (inexplicable, given that the Saudis, and Iran, have and do support terrorists).
First, there were those mysterious fake bomb attacks on Saudi tankers a few months back -- with U.S. provided video of alleged Iranians removing said bombs from a tanker.
The problem with the footage was that it was a pantomime. The men pretending to remove bombs cupped their hands, as if capturing sparrows. The bombs the U.S. was talking about are at least 12 inches in diameter.
Then there was the drone attack on a Saudi refinery, which originated outside of Iranian borders.
Trump doesn't like Iran. He walked away from the Iranian Nuclear Accord, while Europe, China and Russia supported Iran. Iran adhered to the deal, long after Trump's pull out.
Ironically, Trump loves the far more dangerous nuclear powers of North Korea and Russia.
In the meantime, the U.S. Senate has voted against selling weapons to the Saudis, against Saudi attacks on the Houthis, and now, against Turkish attack of the Kurds.
Trump ignores them. Pompeo dares to act indignant.
But who would most benefit from a Middle East war? Russia. Who got Trump elected? Russia.
38
@Lilou -- The US was not a good guy before Trump. From at least Dubya onwards, it has been bad guys all the way down.
Who fired the missiles? The United States? The royal house of Saudi? Bibi? We need to know. And who wouldn't doubt that America is complicit here, given the president's impeachment inquiry? He's always good for a diversion.
58
Obviously there are only 2 people that had the will to strike back, MBS (to save face) and DJT (will always hit back, no matter) and there was only one capable of doing the job — Netanyahu.
So, I surmise that with the Saudi request and the US’s permission Israel was given the green light and executed the strike.
15
Upon seeing this report, I couldn't think of an immediate solution for the faulty geopolitics or environmental concerns local and global. So instead, I got up and went out to fill my dinosaur's tank and will try to bike around more until things and the likely surge in gas prices calm down.
3
Combined with Trump's Syria policy reversal in favour of Turkey the proxy war the US is fighting with Iran piggybacking Saudi Arabia has not only inflamed the already explosive sectarian war in West Asia but wull disrupt the global energy supply with serious ramifications for the world economy and political stability.
11
Another example of peaceful coexistence in the tinderbox of proxy wars.
17
I would not put it past the Swamp King to have ordered something like this as another deflection from the investigation by House Committees which should lead to his impeachment. He belittles anyone who is against him with childish nicknames (why hasn't he used Lap-Dog Lindsey to complain about Graham's principled stance against his reprehensible abandonment of the courageous Kurdish fighters in Syria?), trying to keep them busy counter-punching the name-calling rather than keeping their eyes on the ball.
44
Perhaps US and Saudi intelligence will soon prove the attacks were done by Iran to defame their enemies. In the modern world does wrong depends on who is being wronged. If it is designated enemies the fault is the enemies.
4
Middle East issues ramping up and USA is stuck with a buffoon in charge who knows little to nothing of diplomacy, negotiation, strategy, or the military.
I fear what trump will do next?
He doesn’t listen to anyone with knowledge and expertise.
84
More evidence that Trump “deserves” the Nobel Peace Prize?
Someone needs to de-escalate the potential for war. All parties involved seem intent on increasing tensions, especially Trump, who declares guilt before any evidence has been examined.
15
We all know the president in the White House has a history of avoiding responsibility and accountability by creating distractions.
But then again, we've always known this president and his party have been itching for a war with Iran and what better time than when there's an impeachment underway?
64
Thank you Trump.
Setting the Constitution on fire.
Setting the country on fire.
Setting the world on fire.
116
let's begin to buy E cars for oil will be very expensive soon.
9
I wonder if this is a result of the USA stabbing an ally in the back? If only we had a President with half a measure of sense and a modicum of knowledge regarding foreign relations we could deal with it. Maybe the empty headed, say the same lie over and over maniac President will suffer a complete break with reality very soon.
The story mentions that the KSA is backed by the USA, given recent events that is much more susceptible to change. What did the Saudis do to help on D Day?
22
Trump’s foreign “policy” or actually Trump’s chaos at work.
30
Iran has attacked both Saudi Oil production and a U. S. drone with impunity. A consequence was long overdue although it should have been a stronger one i. e. more of their tankers (especially those bound for Syria against international sanctions) should not be allowed to deliver their oil. The Iranian leaders arrogant support for their own terrorism and funding for other terrorist groups around the world (Hezbollah and the like) cannot be tolerated. More should be done although this is a first step.
2
@Irving Nusbaum :
while saudi arabia spreading the most conservative form
of islam - via ISIS and others - and waging a relentless war
against yemen - where half a million+ people are starving,
is OKAY?
the US have been plaguing iran at least since 1953.
[remember the CIA regime change to secure 'US oil'
in iranian soil], so i think it's time to leave iran alone.
15
@°julia eden and @Irving Nusbaum
Let's face it: there are no "good guys" in the Middle East. There may be a lot of oil there, but there is also a lot of hate. Those two--oil and hate--are a very combustible combination.
6
@Irving Nusbaum - When was it determined that Iran was responsible for the saudi oil fields attack. Thanks for reminding me that US drones are not to be fired upon -- that's the " it's ok for me but not ok for thee" policy.
5
What a strange world we live in. They fight and get rewarded with higher prices.
It boggles the mind as to why the world hasn’t made it a top priority to move away from reliance on foreign countries with dubious internal and external politics and diabolical human rights records and their dirty polluting elixir.
Our glorious leader wants to make us great and keep us beholden to the whims of foreign countries or the earthquakes caused by fracking at home; and, in either case, the environmental fallout. And the stock market oscillates gently but stays high while he vacillates wildly.
Meanwhile, whether it’s 2020 or 2024, when a hopefully more sane person takes the mantle and speaks to and works towards lifting all Americans to a basic standard of living, safety and security, the market will tank.
Strange strange world.
20
What did the Revolutionary Guard and theocracy, not the people of Iran who are also their victims, expect after the recent attacks?
Escalation is likely to be feared unless they are completely isolated to the point of no longer being able to be the threat to the whole region and beyond that they have been for years now.
5
That’s so not cool. The Red Sea is a treasure for marine life.
73
@Jill Sadly these people (DJT et al) don’t care about lives lost, human much less marine. Their main concerns — as always — are power and money. Saudis support Daesh while Daesh kills our soldiers and countless others, and destabilizes the region. While *we* support the Saudis. Somebody remind me again how many of the 9/11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia? Nothing to see here folks.
And all the while, we and other Western powers have destabilized the region for decades. So if anyone wants to know why xyz happened, or why we’re still using fossil fuels, just follow the money.
Nothing will change until we get this “leadership” disease out of our presidential and congressional offices. It’s both parties, not just one or the other. They thrive on pitting us against each other. Until we all stand up in unison...it’ll be same as it ever was. And we’re footing the bill.
4
Another reason I am grateful to have the opportunity and ability to walk the one mile to work and home again.
35