If we can't do something as simple as put elevators in every single station for a reasonable cost, then we have no right calling ourselves a first world country - more like a second world with corrupt third world pricing.
38
$78,000,000 per station multiplied times the sixty stations getting elevators equals $4.68 billion. I know the difference of $820,000,000 doesn't sound like much to an NYC politician but isn't that a little excessive graft wise?
4
The kid will be a college graduate when they finish.
8
Perhaps bringing in the private sector and using the elevator as a service model. Otis and Schindler both offer this. The elevator operator is responsible for not only the installation but the long term operation and maintenance. You can then put incentives in for performance over the life of me the contract. https://www.wsj.com/articles/going-up-the-elevator-as-a-service-business-11570440600
5
When they get through with the elevators (why not do broad -stepped escalators instead?) they can tackle the bathrooms.
3
@judy I submit that "broad stepped escalators" would not accommodate most wheel chairs. Operating a wheel chair by the rider alone requires a fairly large turning radius, so large that only an elevator will do the job. I know this from experience.
2
$78 million per elevator? That is ridiculous. The city of Louisville is building a professional soccer stadium for grand total of $65 million. Smells rotten.
7
Omg read this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing_Rail_Transit in 19 years the Chinese built 200 miles of subways all with air conditioning and elevators. Our ability to build in America is soooo slow it’s embarrassing! Chongqing Rail Transit wiki unbelievable fast and clean, doesn’t smell like human waste.
4
These will be most expensive bathroom stalls ever built! And they go up and down!
5
Roughy $80 million per elevator is insane. Disability activists are doing a disservice to people with disabilities in an effort to make them "just like everyone else" -- not unlike the feminists who think men are exactly like women (except, of course, believing that women are really better, since they mostly don't suffer from "toxic masculinity"). Why not improve the existing, door-to-door disability transport for a fraction of the cost? Why not vouchers for UBER/LYFT, door-to-door transport. at a fraction of the cost?
4
How do I get in on this gravy train?
$78 million per elevator.
That’s actually $3 million for the elevator and $75 million for the crooks.
5
If only the rich rode the subways they’d be paved in gold.
6
Have the Trumps gotten into the elevator business?
4
Why not just install some sort of stair-lift system?
Remind me again how great forced unionization is.
3
Seems like a lot of money for 70 elevators, but then the union has been bilking the city for decades. I wonder what the final cost will be - 8 billion or more? Overruns are inevitable.
It is false to compare the accessibility of the subway for the disabled to other cities like DC or SF when most of the NYC subway is underground, unlike other cities mentioned. But, until there is transparency, just a word no one seems to really adhere to, we won't know where the annual billions 'disappear' to once given to the transit authority.
5
I’m in London and just came from Heathrow. I took the Underground all the way to Central London. Changed trains at Hammersmith. I did not have to carry my suitcase on a single flight of stairs. From New York I scaled 8 flights of stairs to Penn Station where I got NJ Transit to Newark Airport-with the same suitcase. Despite finally having some good leadership in Mr.Byford, I have little hope that NYC Transit will come close to the standards of any major European or even other American City. NY has never believed in mass transit and gives so much money in state corporate welfare to developers that there’ll never be the money it takes to build and maintain the subways or buses. Not to mention all those billionaires like our fine President who don’t pay taxes.
3
@S Simon Eh, the Tube is not "step free" at many stops. You can't exit at Piccadilly CIrcus, for example, without climbing a flight of stairs first to the mezzanine with the escalators, and then from the fare gate exit to the street. (But you can one stop earlier at Green Park). On the other hand, Penn Station/NJ Transit is fully accessible, just the elevators to some tracks can be tricky to find.
1
People better wake up and think about their elders as they consider the disabled. Many are both. We have an aging nation who have provided many amenities to the young, including free or subsidized college education. We don't need families of 2 or 3 children anymore. The elderly baby boomers helped finance their children's education and that of many others. Why are they being abandoned en masse?
4
Would it be more cost-effective to give free taxi rides to wheel-chair bound people - or have health insurance include taxi rides for anyone with a broken leg (you raise your eyebrows? Those services exist in other countries). Anyway, being 2 stops away from an elevator when you leave your home is not making it easy either.
I am an advocate for public transportation - but the cost is hair-raising.
5
Where income-sensible, just subsidize Uber use - superior service, way less costly, and immediately ready.
3
I recently had surgery and have had to get around with crutches and a brace. I have to say I am very lucky that my situation is only temporary, but I have a much deeper empathy for those with limitations to their mobility. Even the subway station near my hospital in Queens was recently renovated, but I couldn't use it because they still only have stairs - and a lot of them. So I took three buses instead. They also need to make sure the elevators work because stations that have them also frequently have outages. The inaccessibility of the transit system is appalling.
7
Access-A-Ride and the voucher proposals for surface transportation that people are making here both overlook the many people who are not disabled who would be helped by elevator installation: the elderly who are not disabled but do not have the stamina for multiple staircase climbs, people with children in strollers, travelers with baggage, people who have done a big shop, or really anyone who is carrying a large, awkward or bulky item. In addition to making the subway more welcoming and accessible to our disabled citizens, elevators would help all of these people too. I can’t tell you how many times I have been a traveler to another city and been immensely appreciative of public transport that was luggage friendly - not only did it make me feel welcomed as a visitor, more practically, it often allowed me to save the cost of a taxi to the airport (and, presumably, as a result, meant one less car headed to the airport).
8
But will they work?? As a person that relies on elevators and escalators I find that the west 4th station IS NEVER ACCESSIBLE BECAUSE THE ESCALATOR and ELEVATOR ARE ALWAYS BOTH EITHER STOPPED, BLOCKED.
Why isn’t there and effort to keep the ones you have working? That should be a NO DOWNTIME rule.
8
@Gcnyc
Yes, and when I hobbled over to the elevator being repaired at 14th Street on the downtown A platform, and begged the repairmen, who were riding it up and down testing it, to give me a ride, they said no.
2
What I find curious in this article is that there is no mention of the volume of traffic that the elevators would handle. Is it one rider per elevator per day, or 100, or 1,000? If public officials-- as well as taxpayers-- are to make informed decisions, then they need to know the benefits as well as the costs. Until we can see usage projections all of this discussion is theoretical only. Public funds are not unlimited-- we need to know specific cost/benefit data in order to determine if expenditures on elevators should have priority over, say, education, health, homeless problems, etc. The reporter on this article needs to do more homework....
6
"The elevator installation is really only 20 percent of the overall cost"
The other 80% is for the Mob.
13
How about a 21st century solution? Instead of subway elevators, the city should provide Uber to qualified limited mobility New Yorkers for the same price as a subway ride. That would mean much better (door to door) transportation and electronic direct payments could be easily programmed. And no need to spend $5 billion for elevators that would still leave those in need the problem of getting to and from the train station.
5
@Donna Gray The phrase "qualified limited mobility New Yorkers" is the reason this scheme would never work. If this proposal were put into effect It would quickly lead to lawyers with a legal specialty of qualifying people for this service. (see Medicaid for an example). After all who would not want free door to door limo service for the cost of a single fee to a lawyer ?
3
@Donna Gray That would not cover the many, many, MANY visitors to the City each year who rely on elevators (myself included - my mother-in-law is in Manhattan, and traveling with my walker is a challenge). It would make traffic problems worse in a city that already has so much traffic. And if I am unable to load my walker into the Uber, and have to rely on the driver to do so... what about the many people with disabilities who use Uber as a way to supplement their income? It's putting the onus on them.
I suspect a project like that would end up costing much, much more in the long run - and not only money, but missed tourism revenue, etc.
2
@Donna Gray I use a wheelchair, and offering Uber as a solution is not feasible. Transferring in and out of a car is difficult at best; I would need a transfer board to do this. Who is going to carry a long transfer board around the city? And drivers would need to learn how to handle wheelchairs, and have ample storage space in the car trunk. The city could offer more wheelchair accessible taxis, but renovation of the subway makes it easier all around for those of us needing to travel around the city. New York is way behind the ADA guidelines, and needs to remedy the issue. There is always money available for other projects, it seems. This one is worthy of some of that money.
3
For those who believe that life begins and ends in Manhattan, a visit to the outer boroughs would be a good education. There are elevated stations, underground stations and everything in between. It would probably cost over $15 billion and take over 25 years to have elevator access to all stations. Let's get Uber, Lyft and other ride services involved and all handicapped people will have access to all the transportation services they need. All those with access issues could be issued a special card which would entitle them to a PRIVATELY ORGANIZED ride for the price of a subway fare. No high capital costs, and a more efficient service than Access-a-Ride. There will always be whiners, but most ADA dependent riders will be happy. Subsidized rides would be the licensing fee for ride companies being allowed to compete with medallion taxis, and the companies would need to eat the difference, not the drivers.
Now, let's reduce those taxes!!!
3
@Vivian The fact that you use the phrase "handicapped people" which has NEVER been a "PC" phrase in disability culture shows that you don't actually know what challenges we face.
People with disabilities, people with mobility impairments. Handicap refers to the accommodation - a handicap parking spot or bathroom stall, for instance.
1
@Vivian
"but most ADA dependent riders will be happy"
so, anytime you want to travel, you want to have to reserve a time a day in advance at a time dependent upon the availability of the drivers?
No,
Also, putting in elevators is a one-time cost (plus maintenance) while paying polluting cars to drive people who would be happy to take the subway around is a cost that recurs day in and day out forever
2
What a waste of money. Several years ago, the MTA reported they could give disabled people taxi vouchers at far less cost than putting in elevators and upgrades. But the disability activist lobby wanted no part of it. They insisted on riding subways like everybody else. So we have to pay through the nose so they can be "mainstreamed" and feel better.
7
@Emacee It's not just the disabled who need elevators. I've watched European and Asian tourists arriving with me from the airports with suitcases struggling up the narrow crowded stairs in stations without elevators, and with no escalators either. I wonder what they think of the backwardness of our famous New York City. It's certainly no longer world-class in terms of transportation. It's beyond embarrassing, as well as exhausting even for able people beyond a certain age.
9
Listen kiddo: a voucher is just a piece of paper until a merchant accepts it for payment. Taxi drivers won’t accept vouchers because of the time and effort they must endure to finally get paid. Every tax paying New Yorker should be able to use the transportation system they have paid for!
9
My wife is handicapped enough to need a wheelchair, over even short distances. She can manage with two canes over very short distances. While not old, we are closing in on elderly. Both fifty years out of high school. The ADA provisions have been wonderful and sorely needed for people with disabilities. With that said, I don't assume that society must make accommodation for us to be able to go everywhere that the non-handicapped will go. It is just NOT practical. Flights of stairs are a drag for both of us. We don't go to places with long flights of stairs. Our choices are moderated with that in mind. I know one thing about elevators, in even modestly used residential buildings. And, that is, elevators break down and are out of service all the time. The heavy use in NYC subways will see them out of service frequently, with over the top expensive maintenance issues. This plan is naive.
9
It's a huge price tag, but understandable give how old the subways are. If they can pull it off, kudos.
Once I was in an elevator at the 8th Ave and 14th St station with a large heavy suitcase. We all got in, the elevator doors closed, the car heaved a bit and then stopped. The doors opened, I asked people to move aside so I could get out; they didn't move. The doors closed, we went half way between floors, and stayed there for an indeterminate amount of time. We eventually got out. I have never taken a subway elevator again.
6
But Elizabeth Warren tells us the government will be able to give everyone all the healthcare they need -- see any doctor, receive any treatment, take any drug -- all without co-pays, deductibles, or premiums.
I guess that's much easier than government installed elevators.
10
@JerseyGirl Medicare and Medicaid are very efficient bureaucracies . The real solution is to reduce the cost of medical care and the cost of prescription drugs.
1
@JerseyGirl Medicare and Medicaid are very efficient bureaucracies . The real solution is to reduce the cost of medical care and the cost of prescription drugs.
@JerseyGirl
She doesn't propose anything that wouldn't be paid for by taxes. We pay for Medicare through our taxes .
1
Knowing NYC as I knew it during my youth as a resident, who is going to ensure that people are safe once the elevator door closes? However, as I see the picture of the woman going up carrying her child up the steps, the city has no choice but to install elevators that are safe.
4
@Tonjo -- Who ensures that the people who ride the existing elevators are safe? If subway elevators are a major locus of crime, don't you think we would have heard about it?
3
Who ensures that the subway platforms are safe? Or waiting at a bus stop is safe? Or any elevator in any high rise building is safe?
1
"Transit advocates have criticized the high costs for installing elevators and have argued that the agency could build more if it could do the work for less."
But then there would be less money for those who made contributions to politicians, no? (smile).
6
An elevator will get you into the station but how is a mobility-limited person supposed the navigate the multi-level maze once they are there? Let’s face it, the cost of a true solution is astronomical.
5
@Peabody -- Most of the stations that are, as you put it, "multi-level mazes" already have elevators. These are typically the stations where many different subway lines converge. On the A, C and E line along 8th Avenue, for example, the West 4th, 14th, 34th, 42nd and 59th Street stops are all served by elevators. And they have enough elevators to get people to every level. The problem is more with stations that serve many residential neighborhoods, especially in the outer boroughs. So the cost really isn't quite as astronomical as you seem to think it would be.
3
I did the sums several times because I couldn't quite believe it. $70 million per elevator??
4
$70m per station. Each station needs to be redesigned to add many elevators.
2
@Bob -- Many stations already have them, so it isn't every station in the system that needs this.
Any new building that goes up over/around a subway station should upgrade it and include in the plan elevators/ escalators. Buildings which have access to the subway system as in Rockefeller Center should not treat them as private entrances and close them off when they wish. It is mind boggling that Yankee Stadium could have the benefit of NYC funding and private car park access while people who take either the 4 or B trains have to suffer through the abysmal stations, that can be dangerously overcrowded. Private developers get public tax benefits, the moneys from which should be used for the public good--including upgrading for our subway system senior and disabled access.
16
How stupid.
Rip out the stairwells and put in escalators
5
@New World
Not enough room in many stations, unfortunately. And the MTA will often program an escalator or pairs of escalators to be one way only - Times Square for example. Morning, 9:30 a disabled person can use the escalator to ascend to the sidewalk. But apparently no one needs it to get to the subway from the street.
2
Using an escalator with a wheelchair or walker isn’t feasible.
1
@New World wheelchairs?
$5.5 billion for installing 70 elevators. What a ridiculous quote for this job!!
Anyone and everyone who has ever witnessed a government project knows full well the cost will be at least $10 billion with the obligatory “cost overruns!” The job will run years over the estimated time for the job and it’ll be a miracle if half of the elevators are still working after 2 years!
More money wasted fattening up greedy contractors who know government coffers are easy pickings because the money doesn’t come out of the government official’s personal pockets! Get the news in the papers and to hell with the costs!
14
build the elevators, but who will keep them clean and pee free? the pee (and worse) is the big question.
10
Wouldn't escalators make more sense?
2
Perhaps, unless you’re using a wheelchair or a walker.
1
@MIKEinNYC - Not if you are disabled. Try getting up an escalator in a wheelchair. My mother would not go near an escalator when I was growing up. When I hit 50 and started having seizures like mom, I understood. I won't go near them.
1
For the most part, now NYCTA elevators are preying grounds for muggers and are otherwise urinals that go up and down.
9
Love the Koch dig. He was not an advocate for minority rights of any kind.
6
If that’s what they estimate the cost to be, imagine the cost overruns.
5
Cheaper to buy a fleet of handicapped vans and pay the drivers.
12
@EW THat's what Koch tried, but it never functioned well. why not?
@EW using Uber and Lyft would be a better idea. Eliminating government evolvement in program would make it work better.
Five and a half BILLION DOLLARS for subway elevators? Really? What a gravy train of graft this will be!
And for what? For the disabled to suffer along with everyone else riding on NYC's filthy, dirty, smelly, horribly hot in the summer subways, that's what.
The disabled deserve better, the city deserves better, the state deserves better, the taxpayers deserve better and the riders, all of them, deserve better.
For decades the MTA has proven that it is institutionally incompetent and corrupt. Break it up. Replace it. Do away with it. Enough of this insanity already.
20
What is stupid is that the MTA spent countless millions of dollars in "rehabilitating" the elevated stations of the N and W trains in Queens and did not produce any accessibility for disabled persons and senior citizens.
It is a tragedy seeing senior citizens, disabled persons, parents with baby carriages and people with travel luggage struggling going up or down the several stairways of those stations.
This would never ever happen with subway stations located in Manhattan, the King of the five boroughs.
And the MTA gets away with these crimes.
14
@Richard Pontone I struggled up quite a few stations with baby strollers, crutches on my broken ankle in Manhattan. When my child was on crutches, I went without dental care to afford his taxis to and from school. All of this in Manhattan.
4
So sick of paying and paying for a system my child can't use. We live within walking distance of 3 different subway lines (different directions) but none of the stations are accessible. If we pass our closest station we can eventually get to an accessible station, but will have to bypass many stops before we hit another elevator (i.e. Grand Central to 125th)
8
@Lyn Smith I see a subway elevator under construction on 86th & Lex. Just one stop but there will be at least elevator between Grand Central & 125th soon. Looks like it will only go to the upper platform for the local 6 rather than all the way down to the lower platform for the 4 & 5 expresses.
Escalators would not solve the problem of wheelchairs, but they'd go a long way toward making the subways practical for those carrying heavy loads and people who are not physically able to do the steps.
8
This is a terrible dilemma. The most cost effective means of providing public transit to physically impaired persons in NYC is vans of various forms with automated dispatching and a dedicated fleet of vehicles.
The reason is that to effectively use NYC subways far more than elevator access to platforms and mezzanines needs to be provided.
Virtually all of NYC's subway stations are too small in their surface entrance footprints to economically add wheelchair access. Descending from the mezzanines to the platforms also involves far too little room for ambulatory and wheelchair bound passengers. Platform clearances at transit car doors are also too limited for wheelchairs and walkers, to easily and quickly enter/exit trains.
It can't cost effectively be done. It's cheaper to provide portal-to-portal transit services with (battery) electric vans.
16
I don’t think people realize how expensive it is to open up the ground in NYC. Keep in mind you have to do this often times with old buildings directly adjacent to where you’re excavating, which have to be maintained...that makes your support of excavation costly.
And, most stations don’t have the space for the elevators, let alone ADA pathways, or street clearance. Often times most of the station has to be reconfigured with new passageways. Once you start and apply all ADA rules, DOT, etc., you’ll see that it’s not just adding an elevator.
$78M is high, but not that high.
11
Lets do some math.
According to Wikipedia Broadway Astoria station has a ridership of 2.43million per year. 24.3M in 10 years. Assume 1% of riders require an elevator. That is 243,000 riders in 10 years. Cost of elevator $75 million.
Now divide $75M/$243K and the final result is it costs $320 each time someone uses the elevator.
11
@zeek Thoughtful and logical calculations. And it doesn't even include the cost of maintainance. Over 10 years no doubt it will require some - perhaps trivial compared to $75M.
BTW, it's actually 78.57M per elevator ($5.5Bil/70). And that doesn't include the inevitable giant cost overruns.
6
I am flabbergasted at what is missing in this article.
Busses.
100% of MTA buses are accessible.
All accessible buses make a connection with an accessible station.
The reality is the city, in terms of mass transit, for its massive size, is very highly accessible.
Not only that, but TLC medallion cabs are another fleet of accessible alternatives, as is Access-a-Ride.
One of two things will happen with this 5B / 78 station plan: it will cost 10B when done or be only 40 stations.
Which is not prudent.
Spending astronomical amounts for such meager results is another Transit / Governmental / Construction Industry unholy alliance wrapped in a veil of public good.
Don’t buy It for even the time your wait clock says your next train will come.
Subsidize ADA cabs for needy riders.
Overhaul the Access-a-Ride first and foremost.
ENSURE A BUS STOP IS PROXIMATE TO EVERY CURRENTLY NON-ELEVATOR SUBWAY STATION. MAKE ELEVATORS AND ESCALATORS (E&E) RUN AT 99% OF AVAILABILITY.
If Byford cannot get E&E and Access-a-Ride right now, certainly don’t give him another 5 BILLION.
23
@WorkingGuy
Makes more sense to use accessible busses, cabs and even dedicated transport busses on call than spending millions on elevators that will end up out of service how often?
The MTA record on working escalators and elevators isn't so great either.
8
Try taking a bus with a baby in a stroller and then let’s have a chat about buses and accessibility.
9
This is the logical end game of the soak-the-rich style of city financing - as long as someone else is paying for it - then all is fine.
6
Why not build a funicular system in place of existing stairs or escalators? Seems to me the cost would substantial my less and everyone could use it.
2
Unionized labor, trades, and a bloated MTA are the reasons for the high costs. Throw in New York State, New York City and New York County government inefficiency.
I have been to Atlanta and Washington DC. While MARTA and METRO are not perfect, they have elevators and escalators. Newer systems, yes, but at least you can get to the platform. Another novel idea, in both cities you can actually get to their airports, by train. You can do that in Denver and Minneapolis, as well. RTD, in Denver, both trains and bus terminal, at Union Station, have elevator access and disability access.
One would think that the city that can do it all, can't do what was done in LA, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Washing ton.
Then again, MTA still has not electrified the Port Jefferson branch from Huntington to Port Jefferson. You still have to change trains at Huntington or Jamaica. They have to fund all those supposed disabled LIRR workers.
The biggest mistake made was creating the MTA, as well as the New York and New Jersey Port Authority. Two of the most bloated, and inefficient agencies ever conceived. I gasped last week when I learned that a toll which used to be 25 cents 50 years ago, is now $9.50 each way. FYI, 25 cents in 1969, is $1.75 today.
MTA and the Port Authority do not need reformed, they need to be scrapped and replaced.
10
@Nick Metrowsky - Same for Seattle. All of the public transportation is wheelchair accessible. The light rail goes from the University of Washington (north of downtown) through downtown and off to the airport. It drops you off in the parking garage where everyone else would park and its easy. The train is clean, its easy to find a seat, and transit police are on just about every train checking to make sure people paid the fare. Failure to do so can result in a $1,500 fine.
4
Seriously. In 2019 you don't have disabled access to your transport system. You're kidding me.
23
True - yet NYC subway cars are air conditioned....
If you paid each wheel chair rider $50 for each time they needed to use the subway, $5.5 Billion would pay for 110,000,000 rides. Ludicrous!
15
Seems to me a billion dollars would easily cover the cost of developing, building and GIVING AWAY wheelchairs that can navigate stairs.
Speaking of developing, there's one already in the works: https://scewo.ch/en/
I bet it would be faster to implement its mass production and distribution than to build all those elevators.
5
Call it what it is. Flagrant corruption. Theft of money that is supposed to pay for public transport. And city residents let them do it.
13
Call it what it is. Flagrant corruption. Theft of money that is supposed to pay for public transport. And city residents let them do it.
5
The elevator crisis is not really a cost issue, but foremost a matter of mismanagement, lack of oversight and possibly corruption. I don’t buy the “it’s complicated construction “ etc. argument. Example in case is the recently completed elevator in the Continental Avenue / Forest Hills Station, which is a major hub and express station. The line was built between 1928 and 1933 and the tunnel and platforms are located directly under the street surface. The construction period for the elevator was about four years, for a project with ostensibly no major technical difficulties. Compare that to the construction of the whole Queens Boulevard line which was completed in five years.
9
$78 million per station?
My company can do it for half the price in half the time.
Oh, that's right, I am not a well-connected contractor.
Never mind.
26
@Celeste did you read the article? It said only 20% of the price tag is actual cost of installing the elevators. There are numerous other costs driving this up beyond the contractors/construction fees.
2
It was utter insanity that, when the 36th Ave N Train station was closed for months for refurbishment, elevators weren't installed. In common with all the stations along the line from Astoria-Ditmars Blvs to Queensboro Plaza, this is an elevated station. Adding elevators at these stations would be, effectively, a bolt-on exercise, attaching the elevator to the external structure. Obviously there's more to it than that, but surely from an engineering point of view it's got to be easier to install an elevator at an elevated station than an underground one.
13
Open up the process to non-union contractors and take bids to drive down the costs.
20
Perhaps the MTA can look at other big cities, like Los Angeles, that are in the midst of expanding their subway systems? I believe all the subway stations here have elevators, and they work well from my experience, I used them plenty of times with my kiddos in the stroller. They are well maintained. Good luck to you, NYC.
1
@PM Right there in the article: "Still, subway leaders have said they want to bring down the costs and are looking to other cities for lessons. "
1
@Steven Sullivan Thanks for your reply. I did read that, but Los Angeles is not mentioned in the article. Boston and Chicago are given as examples...we have a great subway and light rail system here and it's expanding.
3
More elevators would also add to the city’s goal of having more people take public transportation to the airports. Trying to haul large, heavy suitcases up and down stairs between platforms and stations is enough to cause many people to throw their hands up and just take a Taxi or Uber.
12
The city needs to get a new negotiator. Think of what you could do with $78 million+. For instance, you could employe a team of people around the clock to carry wheelchairs up and down stairs for roughly a couple of hundred years.
We're getting robbed!
18
@Clotario
That sounds like an exaggeration - but it's not!
5
$79 million per elevator is outrageous. Reorganize access a ride adding stops for pick ups for greater availability. Build street level trains like Boston. In order to create ways to assist people with special needs start thinking about the 21st century and skip patching and investing in the dysfunctional subway system. Its working and if you want the current system to keep going leave it alone and maintain it for real.
1
@Creek, it’s not $79 million per elevator. It’s $79 million per station, and it’s almost always 3 elevators per station, so that works out to $26 million per elevator. Of course, it’s still a ridiculous amount of money for an elevator.
2
That seems like a lot of money, but I'll admit something few other else will: I have no idea how much it "should" cost to drill holes several hundred feet into the ground in the most populous city in the world, in major transit hubs, and install elevators. Do you?
3
NYC is nowhere close to being the most populous city in the world. It feels like a provincial town compared to some of the cities in Asia.
4
@Randall
"the most populous city in the world"
lol, it is not even top 50 in terms of population density. places in new jersey are more populous and with better connectivity. the only phrase which describes nyc is the most incompetent and overrated city in the world.
3
When my sons were young I carried them in backpacks on the subway - less space in the car, easy up/down stairs, and nobody would step on them thinking the space was clear at their eye level. But I'm a fit adult and could manage that.
I also worked at a major hospital that had multiple flights of stairs in poor repair. I was late to work several times because I saw an elderly person tumble and sustain serious injuries. These were people trying to get to the doctor or visit a spouse or friend, and more than likely could not afford a cab. Absolutely shameful.
12
@Multimodalmama
Kids in backpacks are definitely the way to go. I am very surprised it isn't more common. Not just in the NYC where elevators are rare, but in all large metro areas with trains. That is what we did when we when visit my parents in NYC (as well as trips to SF, Portland, Tokyo, and Nagoya) The only place I have ever been where they seem to be common is here around the Wasatch Front (Yes we are tiny compared to NYC, but there are 2 million of us here). But I think that is more because of all the mountain trails around here. We buy it for that, and then realize it is pretty good for getting the kids around the city too.
1
Even in public transit friendly NYC the lack of escalators and elevators is sad. Look at any other country and they are quick to incorporate to set up elevator and means for the handicapped and elderly to maneuver the subway and train system. The excuse is always money - of course it takes money! The issue is priorities. The US does public transport poorly.
9
Two random thoughts. One, I hear how everyone is complaining that $5.5bn is a lot of money - but yall know that the actual cost will certainly be twice that estimate (and take at least twice as long). Two, only the government can get away with this kind of dicking around (flaunting the law for decades). If a private company ran the subway, they'd have been forced to do this a long time ago and would likely have come up with a more cost-efficient way of doing it. I absolutely believe in gov't oversight, but I also believe nobody runs stuff worse than the gov't (and when they do, there's very little oversight).
9
@JanP I think they do a good job running the military and the space program. 50 years later and no private business has yet succeeded in sending a lander much less a human to the moon.
4
@JanP
Ever heard of the NIH? The CDC? Government run.
6
5 Billion thats it? You probably build only 1 station with that given the bureaucracy in MTA.
4
That price tag is appalling. The MTA's wasteful spending is well documented: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html
Whether or not there is any political will to rein it in is another story. My guess is not.
5
As the MTA has a website that shows you every day which elevators are out of service as it is now, what the heck is 5 billion dollars gonna do for we people that need elevators just increase the the length of the out of service listings for the new elevators IF they ever get built...and why is not West 110th street on this list for Columbia University Mt Sinai St Lukes hospital as well as the Amsterdam Nursing home ?
9
Dear MTA,
Please visit Asia and model your transit system after Beijing, Tokyo or Taipei. You are truly behind the times and I am sick of seeing your own signs in the subway congratulating yourself for such a great job.
15
You summed up Staten Island’s accessibility problems when you said “the only borough the subway never reached”.
5
The price tag is insane! We will go broke much sooner than we will have a working mass transit system! This wasteful culture must be stopped before it’s too late.
4
@LiberalNotLemming how much is spent on car travel each year? Signals? Signs? Paint?
How hard would it be to come up with a modified version of the "Acorn Stairlift" that I see in commercials? And it cant cost $70 million each.
1
I work as a contractor on interior remodels in the private sector. The latest estimate I got for a 3-story elevator was about $450,000. Granted, this is for an interior elevator, but how on earth is it costing the MTA almost $16,000,000 per elevator for the subways?
The Times has already published articles hinting at corruption when Governor Cuomo issues $100 million in contracts to clear clogged subway drains. Officials were quoted saying they had no idea how that much could be spent cleaning floor drains. This looks like more of the same.
22
$78.57M per elevator?
Why not ask the kids at The Cooper Union engineering school to design these. I bet they could come up with something for 15% of that.
14
@unreceivedogma As the article says the elevator installations only cost 20% of the total amount. The rest is to see what is under the ground before we dig and steam, water and electrical lines can't be shut off while the work is completed. New Orleans is rebuilding Bourbon Street and the cost of that tripled when rails and utilities that were installed 150 years ago were discovered. All those water, sewer and electrical lines had to be traced, mapped then replaced with 21st century lines and building connections together with modern access panels. It all had to be mapped and documented as they progressed. It was a real rats nest of tangled lines some of which took weeks to trace back to buildings blocks away. Most of the lines were laid at the bottom of muddy ditches that was paved over many decades ago. Many of these lines were installed before safety features were invented. The good news is that now we have updated digitized maps of what's under the Bourbon Street pavement. Sometimes paper maps are discovered in the archives but no one knows how accurate they are.
8
Bring down the costs? Forget the bloated union contracts and get some people who really will work for a decent wage and not take advantage with rules and featherbedding.
3
@Richard Frauenglass or temper your anti-union hate and read the article which clearly states the construction costs are only 20% of the final cost cost.
5
@Jo grow up and realize that the days of of exploitation are long gone and that far too many union contracts are sweetheart deals. Guaranteed overtime??? One guy stands around while someone else does something? That an electrician can not take the outlet from the box, but stands there while the apprentice can be found to do that. It was the unions, rightfully formed that got good conditions and then they turned into entities equivalent to their employers, What brought the Japanese auto companies to the front. It was the shoddy product being produced here by overpaid union workers. Yes unions are necessary but this has gone too far.
1
"Other transit systems in Washington and San Francisco are fully accessible...."
But at any given time, half the elevators and escalators are under repair in D.C.
What's that old Con Edison slogan? "Dig we must for a greater New York."
8
@george eliot That's true about the escalators. Also, in DC, the entrance with an elevator may be blocks from where a person is. The Metro Center station is a prime example. There is only one elevator at 12 between G&H.
2
Sounds like it would be cheaper to station a firefighter at every station and carry people up the stairs.
8
And the ADA has been on the books for how many decades now?
13
The MTA renovated the 242nd Terminus on the 1 line and did not install an elevator despite the fact only one would be needed. Likewise the Woodlawn terminus of the 4 train at Bainbridge Avenue & Jerome Avenue has no elevator despite Montefiore Hospital being close by. The Dyckman station renovation on the 1 line gained a downtown elevator but not an uptown elevator. Why?
8
We visited New York City with one in a stroller — dad and grandpa carried the baby, in the stroller, up more than a few steps and sympathized with those who lacked two strong men.
5
80 million per station Does any New York civil engineer find this number unusually high. Even 200 elevators is 27-28 million per elevator. Maybe in the long run it would be cheaper to move the city ad start anew.
2
$78 million per elevator? In any other city that much money could build a reasonably large building, complete with multiple elevators. Of course with anticipated cost overruns we're probably talking north of $100 million each.
Good grief!
3
As long as there are two workers onsite sitting down or standing and watching for every one worker doing work at any given time, this is what MTA costs will look like.
13
Just as Bill Gates and other Social philanthropists have used creativity to solve hard problems..
Why can't MTA - create a challenge (spent few MMs) to create an innovative Elevator/Escalator systems to fit cheaply into existing infrastructure?
Goal - Cost of each escalator install 20% of currently projected cost.
NY is a startup city.. someone will come up with solution.
3
Yes, $5 billion is astronomical, but the cost covers installing elevators at 70 stations, not 70 elevators. Some stations will need 2 or more elevators installed. For example, the N/W Broadway station in Astoria, at least 3 elevators will be needed. One from street level to the mezzanine and two more to get from the mezzanine to each of the platforms. Depending on the layout of the stations, in the end over 200 elevators will be needed overall.
Still, the price tag is incredible. I wish it were cheaper to build infrastructure in New York and I understand the outrage but I think the scope of this initiative is being underestimated.
4
I’m astounded the elevator situation is so bad.
At over $78M a pop maybe it’s cheaper to hire strong guys or implement street-level shuttle service for those with needs.
2
I have a small kid and everytime I take him outside of the house, and have to use public transportation we have 2 choices: Option 1: take the bus but my kid can't be in his stroller bc the MTA has a rule that ALL strollers must be folded up. NYC is the only major city in the world with this rule so you end up holding the stroller with one hand, and your baby with another. Which hand am I supposed to use when the bus starts moving? And this rule is supposed to be for safety reason! Option 2: take the subway and hope that the elevator is working if there is one. Otherwise you are carrying 10lbs for stroller weight + 30lbs of human weight + 5lbs of diaper bag weight up and down flights of stairs. Needless to say, this option is not any safer than the bus. The whole situation is just unacceptable. Luckily, I am an abled body mother that I can physically handle these situations albeit incredibly difficult and challenging, but every time, I do think how this is an impossibility for those whom are disabled. Everyone should have the same access! Seriously MTA, get your act together!
28
Why not build a monorail? It would allow tourists to see a lot of sites, the monorail cars are large enough to fit wheelchairs and strollers, and it would cause less congestion.
5
Watch carefully how much work costs in NY/NJ transport of any kind. Unions, contractors and others make the costs seven times those of other advanced countries. It’s been documented repeatedly, even by this paper. Fix that first and improvements can be effected.
19
I am so glad I don’t have to try to maneuver around the city with kids. Terrible!! And hardly anyone stops to help. When I lived in Zurich, you could not get on a bus or go down a flight of stairs without someone stopping within 30 seconds to help, meaning grabbing one end of the stroller / helping with the kid bags / heaving your suitcase.
It’s not just that NYC needs elevators to help the city be accessible to all. It’s also that people need to help — rather than ehh it’s just your problem for having kids. It’s actually a strange mentality once you are used to a society where people automatically help one another.
I always found it strange that often in the years I lived in NYC that I, in high heels, was often the only one helping a struggling mother and her stroller get up and down the stairs. There is a lot wrong in that picture and it ain’t just a lack of elevators.
10
@An American In Germany
I'm an American and I have NEVER failed to assist a woman carrying a stroller up or down stairs. I even did it when my knee was in a brace from an quad tendon rupture.
But then again, my female friends and relatives find it charming and rare that I will escort them to their doors, rather than drive away, if we're out at night.
3
Of course there's no money for infrastructure, Republican voters have happily (and unwittingly) handed it to the super-rich, who don't even say "Thank You".
When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?
12
@JK, California This is a local issue, not a federal one. The only people that need to pay for this are NYC residents.
4
@Moira Rogow Disagree. NYC receives more than 65 million tourists per year, which is about 8x the local population. Y’all have to pay too. Or stay away. 🙏
Elevators must be put in. Among the disgraceful state of the subway is the lack of accessibility. I would help fund it with a tourist tax implemented on hotel stays. If it dampens the number of tourists that would be another benefit.
4
@JK, California
NYC has a Democrat for Mayor.
The city legislators are all Democrats.
NY has a Democrat for Governor.
The state legislators are Democrats.
NY has 2 democrats for senators.
Majority of house reps are Democrats.
And you blame the Republicans???
7
Transit advocates should remember the Constition, equal justice under the law. Their argument showed up in defending black schools (too expensive to change), making colleges accessible, (too expensive to build ramps), but in DC the Court, about 45 years ago, 45 YEARS AGO, told the MTA to build in escalators and one elevator in every station. Guess what, it worked, not just for folks in wheelchairs, but the elderly, pregnant, yound mothers with children, folks walking around with heart disorders, and even folks wheeling suitcases, shopping baskets. So go study the Bill od Rights, transportation advocates. As a Washington judge wrote, no government ever has enough money to meet all its citizens’ needs, what it must do is not make that burden fall on one group. Get it?
11
The benefits are 'illusory' only to the able bodied. We were just visiting NYC with our disabled adult son in a wheelchair - all journeys required careful planing and we could not take many subway lines because there were no accessible stations on them (try taking any line along Lexington). Buses were part of the solution and we don't mind walking long distances (>20,000 steps a day), but when you encounter signs that tell you if the elevator does not work, take the train uptown, then turn around and take it back here in the other direction and try the elevator on the opposite platform, it is crazy. He also has us to push him in the wheelchair - what of all the people who don't?
We do have ADA, why don't we just follow it - everybody should have access to the same things. And if you want to try it, borrow a wheelchair from someone you know and try taking a short trip - the looks of people when they have to stand up on a crowded bus because there is a wheelchair boarding, the extra distance you have to travel because there is no accessible station nearby, the streets with steep curbs and no ramps, etc. etc. You will know how it feels before you decide that this is yet another 'liberal' issue that's designed to take your money away.
Or simply wait until you get old, then try it.
66
@Ryszard So agree with this. My husband grew up in NYC, but the last time we were there, about 3 years ago, he couldn't do anything. He is disabled and unable to climb stairs. To add insult to injury, many of the taxis wouldn't take us either, we weren't going far enough for them. Thank God for Uber, they were the only ones to pick us up. It was so nice to get back here where they make sure everything is ADA compliant.
10
Costs for public construction in NY are incredible in the most literal sense of the word. 8 figure elevators, 10 figure parking garages (at LGA) - it's hard to understand how truly large these amounts are, which is probably why they go largely unquestioned. But consider that it would take someone saving $10,000,000 a year 550 years to save up $5.5B.
I would love to see someone at the Times do a deep dive into exactly where all this money goes.
26
@Alex G. Yes, it's long overdue that someone does an actual cost breakdown on these projects. There's no doubt alot more at play than "big gubmint" that driving up costs. Contractors themselves should be forced to itemize everything and I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few yachts in their budgets.
12
@Alex G.
The Times is pretty good about digging up stories on municipal and state government waste, corruption and incompetence.
Then they endorse the same politicians responsible for the waste, corruption and incompetence.
9
As someone who has used DC's Metro system for some 30+ years, good luck to NYC! Metro's escalators and elevators are frequently out, sometimes within mere days of being repaired or replaces. It's a combination of brutal conditions (for many years, the escalators were exposed to the elements), constant use, and deferred maintenance. I'm all for making NYC's subway system accessible, but unless the systems stays constantly on top of elevator maintenance, they will work great for a while, and then it will go downhill and the finger pointing will begin.
16
@LM Oh yes, I agree. I would go even further and say that I remember escalator and elevator problems starting soon after the system opened.
What is the cost per user?
Elevators that ride a track along a staircase are sold to homeowners. They probably don't cost more than $10,000, a lot less than the $ten million that seems to be the minimum for those MTA is installing.
@Jonathan Katz Those elevators are used only a few times a day compared to potentially 24/7 on a transit line. The transit elevators need to hold at least an entire magnitude more weight. They need to have way more in safety systems (the house elevators have issues with decapitating/squishing kids). They need them to be waterproof/environment proof being outside. Each elevator also has to be tailor built to each train station due to varying heights and space available. (Compared to residential where you modify the house to suit the elevator). You have to demo live active parts of train stations, through century old steel work and concrete, reinforce where needed, and do it all safely.
There's alot that drives up the costs with quite valid reasons.
9
No doubt, as you point out, if prices were more reasonable , then you could build more elevators---but the cynic in me thinks---that the only way you can get anything the public needs built is if you are willing to pay the contractors and their allies who gave large donations to the political campaigns (if not more) an inflated price for this work.
2
FIRST, make the trains run quickly and reliably!
Clean them up, too!
Once THAT actually happens, THEN think about installing a few insanely overpriced elevators.
4
Now that his presidential experiment is over, perhaps the mayor can focus on the real problems of his city's residents as documented in this article. First boring but important assignment: find out why NYC transit projects cost 400-500% more than similar work done in other cities in the US and around the world.
14
@Rick Cowan The MTA is run by the governor, not the mayor.
13
The city to look towards as a model is Seoul. What an astounding price tag. Koreans would do it for a fraction of a fraction of that cost. And far faster, too.
10
When one party knows it will never, ever, ever have to compete for votes, voters lose. We're seeing typhus resurrected in California and 70 station updates are going to cost $5.5 billion in New York. And Nancy Pelosi, daughter of a Baltimore mayor has amassed a fortune of over $20 million in service to her country. Republicans aren't any better when they get a death grip, but it would be healthier for both states if politicians had to work for voters instead of being political entrepreneurs.
11
@Working mom
You're implying that Nancy Pelosi has used her office for personal financial gain. Do you have evidence of this?
4
Of course the price to make New York city subway accessible will be enormous. So what ? If we can afford to pay for bike lanes - we can make NYC subways accessible.
13
@Irene Cantu
Bike lanes are just some paint on the pavement. That costs almost nothing.
4
@Irene Cantu
Why do we even have bike lanes ??
2
@Irene Cantu agree. i see numerous new bike lanes, and then re-designed lanes running for miles. But disabled access to the subways- too expensive
NYC mass transit was a disgrace when I moved out in 1980 and is only worse now. The whole shebang is an embarrassment. It worked better when we used to take the e train in 1958 from Forest hills to the ferry to NJ and then the Erie lakawana to my grandma in Passaic. That was the last time it really worked.
But that said getting a few elevators for 5 billion is perpetuating the insanities.
At every elevated station , even the ones that should be torn down and rebuilt, a portable , excavate and build separate tower anchored to the street. This tower needs to be a mass produced solution using a solid design. The major thing that gets done on site is that it gets anchored and bolted to the existing system. Otherwise it's all trucked in. If American unions can't let that happen, I say well , build it elsewhere and float it here. We still run the Panama canal at last read
The construction needs to have a turnkey endpoint. In fact as these elevated stations get redone , the new elevator can be unbolted and moved.
As for underground stations , that too should be a no brainier .
The cottage industry approach HAS to be curtailed.
5
One solution could be that we make driving cars much more expensive and use that extra money to fund better -vehicle- transport for those with disabilities.
This:
1. provides better mobility for those with disabilities
2. funds that improvement
3. encourages non-disabled people to use public transport because the relative cost for driving is higher
The real problem is that the cost of driving is not born entirely by the driver. It is spread out onto the public such that those that choose a driving lifestyle are subsidized by those that do not.
6
@J c I love how everyone thinks the solution is making vehicles much more expensive. Congestion pricing is already going to happen. And many disabled people need cars even if they were able to use accessible subway stations. There are much better ways to raise money, like fixing the regressive NYC property tax system.
10
@Eric
I literally said in my comment we'd use the money to fund "vehicle transport for those with disabilities."
Vehicles ARE much more expensive than public transport. It's just that the people bearing the cost are not the people doing the driving. A carbon tax would instantly reveal just how much drivers have been syphoning away from non-drivers.
5
@J c
I recommend an approach taken by cities like Tokyo, London, or Singapore: Tokyo and London both have congestion charges, in all of Japan, you also may only register a car, if you are able to afford the parking space for it. Singapore has started to cap the total of registrations. Registrations are auctioned. Every year, the number of registrations is reduced by not recycling all of those returned.
Anyway, it would be interesting, to contrast the cost for elevators with the money spent to maintain or rebuild e.g. 1km of street.
@Times: Might make a nice article.
The Boston subway system is older than the New York one yet has double the percentage of stations with elevators. Paris also has one of the oldest subway systems in the world, and more underground structures (including actual catacombs) than NYC, yet manages to have elevators in subway stops. Surely we can do it too. Are we a modern, developed country or not??
48
@cs In fairness, yes, Boston has a higher percentage, and I appreciate it, living here. But NYC system is so much larger it is a lot more units of elevators/escalators to install.
Our buses are in sorry shape compared to NYC's and don't traverse much of the central Boston area. When I visit NY I tend to take buses as much as possible since I never know what will be available in the subway (in Manhattan, I mean). I'm not even in a wheelchair but have difficulty with stair climbing due to arthritis.
4
@cs
New York has some of the world's most modern, developed, and perfectly legal corruption.
Are you not grateful?
6
@cs Boston re-routed one of it's major lines in the 1980's (the Orange Line), extended the Red Line with several new underground stops, and rebuilt many stations downtown (Government Center and the Green Line).
They replaced many elevated lines and associated stations with below ground stations. Another significant portion of the system operates at street level (the B, C, D and E lines).
The system has old origins but it was modified pretty extensively over the past 40 years.
5
Ok admittedly I'm on the West Coast and our transportation options can be pretty bad, but how does a city as rich as NY not have elevators or ramps for the disabled?
I realize their hedge fund masters of the universe only take private cars, but come ON.
19
@Jules >100 year old train stations, underground, all different sizes and layouts. Makes for extreme difficultly in doing it now.
New stations are built with elevators absolutely no problem. It's the over 100 year old legacy that's a nightmare. And there's alot of it.
5
@Jules Ramps, now there's an idea. Not sure whether it's good or bad...
1
@Nelson Downhill, maybe. Uphill, forget it. I found that out in the Berlin train station for east bound trains.
The costs of building subways in New York and trains in California would be a joke if it weren’t such a sad abuse of taxpayer money.
If each escalator ultimately becomes a bedding spot for the homeless, like most public transportation infrastructure, then NYC has effectively built homes for the homeless at 78M each.
Yet another example of Democratic bastions of progressivism.
10
The elephant in the room is called "Maintenance." The BART system is plagued, not counting aesthetics and sanitation, with escalators and elevators that rarely see any routine maintenance being done. You do get to see escalators taken apart and out of service for months because they broke down. The elevators are not only s-l-o-w, but in one notorious instance, one elevator was out of service for so long that a homeless person was using the top of the elevator car for a bedroom.
New Yorkers should be wary of any elevator/escalator projects that do not include dedicated budgeting plans for maintenance and the eventual replacement of the equipment.
33
These costs are through the roof. Might it not be cheaper to hire two big strong people to wait at each station to professionally carry individuals up or down to their track?
124
@LeRoy Jones
I chuckled and then decided to do the math...for the $5.5b budget you could pay for a 24/7 crew of 6 people per station, making $25/hr... for the next 60 years.
21
@LeRoy Jones
I'm not sure. Add in all the union benefits.
3
@LeRoy Jones
Back of the envelope math gave me 2 people at $30/hour for 8 hours a day, 3 shifts per day, 365 days per year, at all 70 stations would come to 135 years of staffing for the 5.5 billion.
15
Another issue is the maintenance of accessoble infrastructure that is mechanical and requires power. The plan should include ongoing and continuous maintence of elevators and escalators if its going to be sustainable. Now, the percentage of functional accessibility is much less than 25%.
Reducing costs for NYC construction of critical infrastructure should come from the state in terms of incentives and working with MTA contractors and their unions directly.
5
Accessibility is not only for the disabled and the elderly. It's also for mothers with young children.
Have you ever tried navigating public transit in NYC with a toddler and an infant?
There's an abysmal lack of elevators from street to platform in the subway system (and I'm not even talking about their working condition and cleanliness). You cannot take a bus with a stroller, you have to somehow lift 2 children and stroller and bags with your own 2 hands (and then there's nowhere to store a stroller either). You can't even take ubers or taxis because you can't go around with 2 spare car seats once you're off the car.
We have no options but walking or owning a car (thus contributing to pollution and congestion). It makes no sense. Just one of the many contradictions of a supposedly progressive city.
85
@Laura S. that's awfully convenient. However, at 78M each, could the city build more stations instead? That might reduce car driving by people who don't need elevators significantly. Which population is larger: the elevator people or the non-elevator people? I think the contribution to the population overall is a net decrease if we used the money for more stations. Every time I visit NYT, I'm amazed at how well developed the subway system is there. Sure all stations in SF have elevators, but there are so few stations that most people drive anyway. Consider the trade-offs. In the progressive city, there's still a ceiling on the budget, money doesn't grow on trees.
1
No one is anti elevator. We're just questioning the cost. 80 million dollars/elevator should make everyone question the cost.
13
@Gdo
Read the article and do the math. It's $5M per elevator.
You know-things like this are tough questions when designing a transport grid.
Everyone needs to be able to get around. And in a reasonable, affordable manner.
But is our current thinking just outdated?
Thought experiment:
1) lets say we restricted private cars to parking structures at the edges of the city. No street parking doubles our lanes.
2) all cars and delivery trucks in the city are electric-our carbon footprint falls dramatically. Power them all by solar installs-doable.
3) lets say that instead of installing more elevators and escalators-which always break and are expensive to maintain-the access a ride system is folded into the larger ride hail system on a need blind basis. Ride hail cars are all basically required to be handicapped/wheelchair accessible. Users can upgrade as desired. The access a ride user gets their discount/free service/whatever-the driver gets paid appropriately. The city reimburses as required-but maintains less overall infrastructure.
I don’t believe in discriminating against anyone, but something like the subway is not really designed for a wheelchair or even a stroller footprint, and im not sure its worth the cost to adapt it properly if we can transport these folks cheaper, faster and better by fixing other parts of the system.
7
@B.T.
With a carbon tax we would might end up with something pretty similar to what you describe. If people that choose a driving lifestyle actually had to pay the full cost for that choice they might make different choices.
I don't like the idea of banning anything. This is America. You should be free to do what you choose. *As long as you pay for it*.
If you are not paying for something someone else is. That's stealing in my book.
2
Building a mile of subway in NYC costs 5-6 times what it costs in other cities such as London, Paris, and Rome. An earlier analysis by the Times found that the excuses provided for this bizarre price differential were almost entirely without justification, and it was at least implied that malfeasance was behind this excessive cost.
I will assume that the appropriate cost of installing these elevators is 5-6 times less and that the malfeasance is explains the excess cost.
107
I agree. On a recent flight I sat next to a former contractor for the MTA. He told me about rampant schemes to inflate cost - and government + unions look the other way, throw up their hands - or are part of the dealings.
Are bids for these jobs public? And what are the conditions to get a government job? Why are cost-overages not capped? I am not in that industry but there must be a way to stop this if there is a political will.
1
Government-related contracts in America cost a lot more thanks to corruption and waste, but NYC and NY state take it to a whole new level. Not only does it cost a fortune to add elevators, but it takes much, much longer than Asia and Europe to complete infrastructure projects.
New Yorkers, why do you accept this and why is your voter turnout so low for city, county, and state elections?
41
@John W National office is nearly always what drives voter turnout. New York is a state where our vote doesn't count for the presidency, because of the electoral college. If your vote doesn't count in the biggest prize of all, people will be less likely to participate.
10
That successive mayors actually FOUGHT against accessibility —for their own constituents! — to the only realistic way to move around New York City makes me livid.
Why should people who, for whatever reason, cannot comfortably navigate dozens of stairs be shunted out of view to a lousy, unreliable van system? Why can't I take the train with my friends?
Why is it okay to forcibly segregate an entire class of people?
Thousands of regular new Yorkers live needlessly stunted lives because the city doesn't give us a way to leave home and go anywhere. In (far less rich) cities abroad, this would be unthinkable.
Why can't we afford to integrate something so basic as transit?
71
@Jaclyn What goes around , comes around.
Ed Koch may have been thinking about that when
he was undergoing outpatient phhysical therapy for
mobility issues in his old age. I saw him once, I doubt he was capable of taking the stairs then.
2
Elevators and escalators are a must - especially as the NYC population ages. To pay for them - developers, who build near stations because of the public investment in the accessibility they create. Like congestion charges, developers could be assessed for the new riders they create.
10
This boggles the mind. I lived in the UK where they built 70 miles of deep bore, ultra modern rail as part of the new Crossrail project for the same price it cost them to build some cut and cover junk for 2 miles on 2nd Avenue. Only in America.
66
@Beatrix
Though if talking about London, we should also be clear that the accessibility of the London Underground is even worse than the NYC Subway. The state of "accessibility" on the subway systems of New York, London, and Paris is a huge embarrassment.
6
@City Dweller I agree, it is not good at all. I don't think it's any worse than the subway, however. I also would argue that at the very least - which still not an acceptable substitute entirely - Transport For London operates a viable and robust bus network which IS disabled friendly. I took the bus every day in addition to the tube and very many handicapped and disabled people are easily able to use the buses to go where they desire and need. I still believe all transport should be accessible to all and there are certainly differences in time for some journeys depending on mode of transport, but buses are extremely accessible and can get you nearly anywhere - buses in New York are grim and do not operate as extensively.
@Beatrix It's because of the unions and transit authority administration. This has gone on for decades and no one in the city will question or fight this extortion and corruption. Ever.
Using a wheelchair or unable to navigate steps because of a disability or injury is a non-negotiable.
And a very nice convenience for folks with a stroller.
We need elevators Instead of those useless new flashing advertisement boards.
Use the money to make NYC accessible.
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I took the F train yesterday from Brooklyn to Broadway/Lafayette Street. The elevator there was not working. I walked further to the escalator, which was working. When I got to the street, I had to walk an additional 3 blocks, doubling back over the underground walk. I plan my trips around stations that I know have elevators or escalators. But so often, one or both is out of order. And repair seems to take months!
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@Richard It's extremely frustrating. I wish they'd adopt the process used in Tokyo: every month or so, you see a sign on the elevator door that tells you the exact date and 2-hour window of when they will be performing the next regular maintenance/check-up on the elevator, so you have plenty of time to plan ahead - and then they go and actually do that regular proactive maintenance, so that elevators only very rarely break down.
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@Hi Agreed, but that would take intelligence and strategic thinking. Two things sorely missing from the MTA.
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@Hi we could learn a lot from Asia -especially Japan - where rail travel is concerned.
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"Richard Ravitch, the former M.T.A. chairman credited with turning around the subway in the 1980s, fought a push to add elevators, arguing that the costs would be “enormous and the benefits illusory.” "
Disagree with that statement. Not only would disabled and elderly benefit but people using strollers, carrying heavy bags or someone who's on crutches for a spell. As far as costs, it sounds like anyone who wants something built in NYC has "pay off" a lot of parties to get anything accomplished. Might want to start with that issue first...
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This is excellent news and long overdue.
$5.5 billion is the cost to install 70 subway elevators.
1) Each elevator install costs on average $78.6 million.
2) If 20% is actually the cost of installing each elevator and 80% is moving stairs, pipes etc, then its costing NYC $15.7 million per elevator install and $62.8 million to move pipes, and stairs.
I know NYC is an expensive place to build but still... how is this not covered in red flags for unbelievable waste?
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@JonahT
They left the quotes off... What they meant was:
Only 20% of the cost is for actually installing elevators. The rest is for "moving pipes and utilities" (AKA payoffs to well connected contractors).
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@JonahT
Please read the article. It's about $5M per elevator. And a portion of the 80% of the cost that is not elevator-related is for real estate acquisition. I'm not arguing that the overall cost may be high, but exaggeration takes focus away from that.
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@JonahT
And half won't work after a year!
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Absolutely needed.
But 5 Billion $ for elevators. Only in NY would this be accepted.
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@Edward g
Just subsidize Uber use - superior service, way less costly, and immediately ready.
This is good news. I’m a native New Yorker and I’d love to move back. But as I get older I realize that the city is the least accessible of my options, especially because of the subway system. Recently I needed to get from JFK to Brooklyn with luggage—and bad knees—and the stairs nearly crippled me. London, Madrid, Paris... Any one of these European cities have better and more accessible public transportation. It’s a shame, because New York is such an amazing city. But if you are elderly you’d better be rich, too, and have a car and a driver at beck and call.
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@C. Bruckman I agree with your first premise that NYC is hard to navigate as one gets older. I disagree with the notion that London, Madrid, Paris are any better. DC, with lots of federal buildings and a new transit system and walkability and lots of transit is your best bet. Anything else - challenging...
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@Andrew Lee London, Paris and especially Madrid are a million times better. Have you seen the Metro in Madrid? Most of it is brand, spanking new and goes out to the suburbs and of course, the airport. And mind you, in Madrid the Metro started expanding only in the 1990's. We can't seem to do anything here...
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I have recently spent time in London, Paris, and Madrid, me and my bad knees. These cities may not have more elevators in the subways (underground or Metro), but they have escalators everywhere. And then there’s the constant problem in NYC of elevators being out of service. A few months ago I googled for the best route from JFK to Manhattan and took a new route, which people with disabilities (or lots of luggage) had successfully navigated. But half the elevators were out of service. Now I take the New York Airporter bus from the city to the area airports, which cost many times the amount of a subway ride and risks one getting stuck in traffic and missing the flight. I’ve yet to find a European subway system that is worse than NY’s. Even Istanbul does better with its wonderful above-ground trams. Budapest, ditto.
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How about reducing the cost... creating a standardized design for an elevator system that could fit existing subway stairways -- this sounds like a good university engineering department "design challenge", and I'll bet it can be done for one-tenth the cost per elevator than what MTA is considering today. Just take over one existing stairway from the street to the mezzanine per station... and two or four existing stairways from the mezzanine to the platforms.
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@Dennis Mancl
They could actually try those stair lift things without even taking up a whole stairway. It could just be like a wheelchair size platform that folds up when not in use and folds down with the push of a button. May work fine especially for lower traffic stations.
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@Dennis Manci - If you take over part of the staircases you create a safety hazard for everyone. Its the LAST thing you should do. There isn't enough capacity there as it is. And you can't just "take over one existing stairway." Most platforms only have one or two. Do you even ride the subway?
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No excuse. Absolutely no excuse. Far overdue. Criminal complacency. Tax the rideshare services to pay for it. Get it done.
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@Eleanor Kilroy, I am disabled and take a rideshare service because the subways are not accessible. So your solution is to tax me? How about we all share in the cost?
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@TEGraul Possibly the city could provide prepaid vouchers to those who are disabled AND financially needy for rideshare services or taxis to take them to a station with an existing elevator. Building more elevators - which you know will not be properly maintained - is not a cost effective solution. Existing elevators, in addition to maintenance, need attendants - hopefully to keep them safe and clean.
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@Eleanor Kilroy
Rideshare services shouldn't have to pay for the MTA's obviously corrupt practices. As another reader stated, each elevator would cost $78.6 million... Insanity.
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