Should clergy be of this world or never stray from the ivory tower, like "traditionalists" want?
2
Benedict had a secret report. Benedict gave it to Francis. It had to do with pedophiles and gays who run the Vatican.
Today I gays and pedophiles may recognize a good person such as Benedict or Francis. And supposedly they lead the church. But underneath the gays and pedophiles will undermine him as soon as or later in their lives.
The Catholic Church cannot change. According to Al Jazeera America New York City is worth $168 billion. The only thing I see is how much cash can you get. The church pretends to be poor. While the Vatican is probably worth $7 billion. EWTN a channel. A radio station. And then they complain they’re poor.
If the money from New York City was returned the poor will live on lobster and champagne for a 100 years! Of course they could have housing for the poor, but why care. We need them for cash!
“ push for openness,” notes, without directly noting,
an existing closed-ness.
Barriers in stead of bridges.
It suggests an existing choice of the
binary banality of “either/ or,”
when realities’ viable ranges and continua exist.
Invitingly.
Transmute and translate “ open” into
menschlich, and
man-made barriers,
underpinned with faux-theological edicts and
principles, BEcome “ummenschlich.”
Not to be tolerated in this or any other world!
The Times is to be applauded for its excellent coverage on religions, including Roman Catholicism. Catholicism's relevance, however, to American society and culture seems remote and creaky. Catholicism is bringing about its own demise, at least in the "first world", by continuing to treat women as inferior beings who should be seen, not heard. Nuns, who devote their lives to helping and educated children for poverty wages, aren't even considered clergy, but lay people! And the old boys network started the avalanche not only with its rampant pedophilia, but with tolerance of it and feeding pedophilia by hiding perpetrators from its own flock. And by using the collection basket to pay high-priced lawyers and lobbyists to prevent victims from being compensated.
Small wonder, then, that educated persons truly wonder if they need a "learned intermediary" to have contact with a loving God, and if so, whether one can be found at Our Lady of Perpetual Sexism.
6
Progressive or not, it's still the Catholic Church. Besides, about a year ago he said Satan was behind the child abuse scandal. Really? What's positive about someone who says something like that? As an atheist, I don't support any religion, but some are certainly worse than others.
1
An astounding man.
7
@brian I agree. It's more significant than many people realize that Francis is a Jesuit. I got my theology degree from the Jesuits and may have imbibed some of the ethic:a person for others. Franco's presentation as a humbly living person, which charmed so many, shows a steel that many don't see under the simplicity. The steel was trained in, tempered and burnished by the Society of Jesus. He is doing the papacy his own way and not as a symbol of the church; he's leading it. He's taking it out of it's torpor and into the direction its purported role model would have it go--painfully slowly, yes, but surely.
7
The beginning of this article gives the impression that the majority of US Catholics are against Pope Francis. The article says that "Francis wants an inclusive church that welcomes Catholics back in the fold..." which I believe reflects the thinking of most Catholics in the US. However this was followed by a comment that Catholic conservatives feel this is a "cheap embrace."
It's not clear -at least to me- why this article persists in quoting the "conservative" wing of the Catholic Church to represent the entirety of US Catholics.
I don't think I'm alone in hoping the Catholic Church develops a more inclusive leadership. One with an ecumenical approach which expands the leadership roles to include women and married clergy.
I recognize the significant role the Catholic Church performs in social programs. I'm frustrated with the continued blind eye of the Church Hierarchy to the need to be more inclusive.
1
Vatican is a political entity. People often forget that.
Despite how much change Pope Francis wants to bring in quickly, he's hamstrung by the conservative factions in Vatican and around the world. Look at what those far right conservative cardinals are doing to fight the change. Look at what conservative Catholics are saying about him in the US and in Europe.
So, people who are disappointed at the slowness of change or the way he handled the rapes by the priests. Please be patient, and show your support to Pope Francis if you really want a lasting change to happen in Vatican and in Catholicism in general. He needs strong public support to push his agenda. He may look like a king, but he needs to tread carefully lest he loses the ground to his attackers.
Although I'm not a Catholic, I believe Pope Francis is truly trying to bring more humility and lessons from Jesus Christ into Vatican. Loving thy neighbor. Loving and protecting the persecuted and the poor.
Please try to see in big picture.
9
Before the development of modern hygiene and medicine, many people died in childhood or their teenage years. It made sense to encourage parents to have many children, with the hope that a couple of them would survive to adulthood and have progeny of their own.
Today, so many people are living long enough to have and raise their own children that many countries have become overpopulated. There is not enough fresh water, arable land, and other natural resources for everyone. People begin competing with one another over resources to meet their basic needs. This leads to either fighting and/or to emigration.
In earlier days, the world population was considerably lower so there was still empty land where people could move and land with low densities of people which could accept immigrants. There are now 7.7 billion people on Earth. We are up against the limits of Earth’s natural resources.
None-the-less, some religions continue to press people to have as many children as “God gives them”. Catholics are told not to use artificial means of birth control. And thus, population numbers are exploding, people cannot find enough resources for their basic needs, they are fighting over them, and/or they are migrating.
If the Catholic Church would change its policy on birth control, many fewer people would need to migrate.
9
Pope Francis could change the world if he reversed the Church's doctrine on birth control, and started using the Church to actively promote and finance contraception in poor Catholic countries.
9
So conservatives are saying that he is eroding doctrine, and his benefactors say that at least his detractors can speak out, as opposed to previous popes. Am I the only one who does not see a contradiction here. Lets not forget that he is head of a church, and one that in theory has an objectively truthful message. If priests are deviating from doctrine, they are acting in a heretical manner. There is room for debate as to what doctrine should be, but dissent from doctrine should not be tolerated.
1
As a practicing Catholic of moderate liberal views, I have read and heard more than a few commentaries by so called "conservative Catholics" railing against Pope Francis.
Here's my question for those "conservative Catholics":
"Do you think the conservatism of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI had any relation to the empty pews in Catholic churches across America today?"
As I look across the church on Sundays and see mostly people in their mid-40s to late 60s (I'm 61), I think that heavy dose of conservativism drove off at least one, if not two generations--beyond those driven off by the priest sex scandal that was covered up by bishops and cardinals for decades.
11
@Pat I see it slightly differently. Other churches that have liberalized (ie. Anglicans, Lutherans and here in Canada the United Church) are closing churches at a higher rate than the Catholic Church. The churches that are growing are usually consistent yet conservative in their doctrine. I know more than a few Catholics and their families that stopped attending Mass once it changed from Latin into the vernacular. I myself am a convert so I've never experienced the Latin Mass.
5
@Roger and Pat: Catholics are unfortunately divided along party lines about Church issues just like the country is divided about political issues. So, liberal Catholics blame the conservative popes for the empty pews, and conservative Catholics blame the watered down teaching and preaching since the Council. Personally, I dislike the terms liberal and conservative for Catholics. We're not supposed to be following either side. We're supposed to be following the Gospel.
4
Very good article. Enjoyed reading it. Not sure if the Holy See does not have that much influence in the secular realm. Some say the Vatican, with embassies and consulates in 125 countries, has the best secret service in the world.
3
Abolish the priesthood and then we can go back to the real vision and work of Jesus, which is inclusionary, radical and not tied to capitalism and its abuses.
4
In a world of global, national, and local tensions, Peace is a "rare Earth" material.
But not when I tune in to Pope Francis.
I find him calming, inspiring, and full of life.
He is the Velveteen rabbit of our times.
Go to the Vatican website and read his homilies. Reading, versus hearing his words, gives rich insight into his thinking.
In pondering his success, I have concluded it comes from his early career as a bartender in Argentina. Barstools are filled with both angst and joys of life every day.
But the bartender....listens!
Pope Francis brings that skill to life....in a Church full of talkers.
I pray for him often.
25
In a time when I find little hope in the world, I find hope and inspiration in Pope Francis. In the face of so much nationalism and ardent conservatism, Francis holds true to the core message of Jesus... Love God and Love your neighbor!
11
And love yourself, choosing to contribute,
as best as you can,
given who you are,
who you are not, and
not likely to BE, as well as
who, and what, you may yet BEcome,
to making a much needed difference
that can make sustainable differences
for menschlichkeit and
equitable wellbeing, health and
opportunities for development for ALL.
1
Is this an opinion piece or journalism?
It sure packs a lot of ideological baggage: "By appointing cardinals and more than a thousand bishops on the front lines of the faith, Francis is reconstituting a church in his image." This is an accusation of egoism against the vicar of Christ. I don't see facts supporting it, tough.
Perhaps John Paul and Benedict tried to shape the Church in their image, according to their (very strong Right-wing) political ideology and Francis is correcting their bias?
Perhaps he is shaping the Church in the image of St. Francis and maybe even Jesus? not his "own image", which would be idolatry.
6
"Some conservatives worry it is a step on a slippery slope toward undoing priestly celibacy."
Mordant humor among The Elect...refreshing.
3
Pope Francis is more open to allowing priests to marry, allowing divorced people to remain in the church, and recognizing LGBT people. But for some reason, he seems resistant to giving women an equal role in the church, and to eliminating the ban on contraception. If it benefits men, the issue is on the table, but if it only benefits women, no way.
Why is this? It is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.
8
@Madeline Conant
I'm catholic and I strongly believe that women should be allow priesthood and a more prominent role in the hierarchy of the Church. I hope change comes soon, but The Church takes a long time for any changes in doctrine.
6
@Madeline Conant
Baby steps. He's going about it the right way.
3
I used to love the church and it's commitment to social justice. Now I just don't even want to read about it. If there's one thing I hope he can do is to take care of the underserved....bc we here are no longer leading this value as a nation. In our private donations yes, but as an American no...so sad.
2
The tragedy of Roman Catholicism is that it is buried in issues of ecclesioloy - church structure. It has not recovered from the issue of patrimony - having to break down clerical families power land grabbing by introducing celibacy in the 7th century. At the impact of the Reformation, again it re-acted in protection of power, instead of opening the Gospel to the world. In America, the tragedy is the rise of fundamentalism and totalitarian corporate rule. Without a focus on the Gospel - the fallout is more corruption and violence in the world. The incredibly slow moving reforms of the Roman Catholic Church are again leaving humanity on the wrong side of history - with the rise of dictatorships and ruin.
4
Having grown up in the Catholic Church in the '40s and '50s and jumped ship well before the reforms of John 23rd, I was quite stunned at the election of Francis by the sclerotic Roman curia. I remember asking a rather jolly and urbane Friar at a local bakery and cafe, how was this even possible? "Sometimes," he said, "we believe the Holy Spirit takes a hand in it." That's the best answer I've heard. Go Francis!!!
21
@Jim Bishop
Friar Tuck?
1
Pope Francis needs to extricate the Jesuits from the larger Catholic faith, and release them to be science teachers again.
This is the subject of my new book "The Humanist - Continuance" which reflects the fact that human reproduction will soon offer fresh life cycles, and the afterlife foreseen by Christianity. Call me crazy, but science claims otherwise.
@Dwight Jones
"...human reproduction will soon offer fresh life cycles, and the afterlife foreseen by Christianity"
What does that even mean?
The Cardinals pick the Pope, but the Pope picks the Cardinals. It works better than you might think.
1
I mean, good for him and for whoever cares, but you won't see me trying out church because some policy changes. The bible still means the same to me, which is entirely nothing. But hey, nice try.
1
I applaud NYT for covering Vatican news, especially the changes in the higher ranks of the curia. However, I'm slightly confused by the tone - the piece seems to indicate that Francis is unusual for not promoting conservative Catholics who have opposed his policies, like Archbishop Chaput of Philadelphia. It wasn't surprising when Benedict promoted conservatives like Donald Wuerl to replace more liberal bishops like Theodore McCarrick in Washington. Please do continue to highlight the changes the Catholic church is making - they have major impacts on our country and the Church - but don't make is sound like Francis is acting unusually by shaping the curia to reflect his views. That has always been the case, with every pope we have evidence for.
15
Pope Francis did a good pastoral job of opening up the church as envisaged by John the 23rd sixty years ago in Vatican 2 and well presented in this article.
Having worked in Ghana in the sixties as a missionary priest, the seventies saw me studying international affairs and the sociology of international development. As part of that work I did research about the impact of a secret Vatican document on population that was leaked to Time magazine. Being at that time African Affairs advisor of the Holy See at the UN I had access with my pass to the UN and the six Latin American countries’ Missions a the UN which were pressured to oppose the UN population policies. The Missions hardly heard about the secret document, let alone acted on it.
The Vatican’s population policies was one of the major reasons that I left the Church and the official priesthood in the seventies. I wrote a Notification Letter to Rome and to my missionary society rather than simply leaving, arguing for religious freedom for clergy based upon the Vatican 2 statement in that respect. Thus, I refused to go through the inhuman process of laicization where the institution is considered perfect and the disagreeing member a failure.
12
Pope Francis is more like Jesus than any Pope we have ever had and I applaud him for having the courage to do what is right and not what people think.
42
Sounds like desperation, to me. Young people, in western countries, are NOT interested. So, the Church is turning to 3rd world countries, for recruitment. In this technological age, good luck with that. The truth will win.
10
@ChesBay
[I need to infer a lot here from your statement. If I misrepresent your ideas, please forgive me. And readers too, please forgive me, for wasting your time.]
Technology and science can't answer the eternal questions. Is there God? Is there Freedom? Is there Immortality?
Christianity and many other religions answer "yes'.
Apparently, you answer "no".
But, you don't have enough evidence. Through science you, like me, have discovered that logical and scientific thought does not answer these questions.
Your note refers to "truth". I infer that you think the failure of science to find the supernatural being and the supernatural aspects of being, establishes that such things don't exist.
But, you are wrong. You have confused a necessary condition with a sufficient one.
For God, Freedom, Immortality not to exist, it is necessary that science can't find them. This is a necessary condition, and it is what science, and you, establish.
But, can they be found in other ways? To me they can, through an intuition of the world beyond. To me, that's sufficient. I.e. it's a proof of the existence of the three items. That's a sufficient condition.
You would say it's my opinion, and in the terms of the secular world, you're right.
But, your claim is an opinion too. You can't prove the triad doesn't exist.
We're both religious, making assumptions we can't prove empirically. My religion is Christianity, Orthodox variety. Yours is called Scientism.
2
@ChesBay Young people, in western countries, are not interested in any religion. This is not about recruitment or competition ... it is about representation in the governing of the Church from countries long locked out of a board heavily seated with Romans.
1
@ChesBay
What "truth" is that, exactly, that will win?
The youth I am privileged to teach are interested in many things, but some of their highest priorities are (1) a sustainable and physically/biologically healthy environment, (2) "social justice" (rights to healthcare, education, equal opportunity in employment and housing, opportunity to contribute to society) and (3) peace and general welfare (e.g., the right to live without fear of violence).
What is the Christian imperative? Essentially, it's articulated in the Sermon on the Mount/Plain: (1) love your enemies; (2) identify and care for your neighbor (including especially the poor and marginalized); (3) count the costs of your actions (and so encouraging stewardship of the Earth); (4) be wary of divided allegiances (e.g., love of humankind v. love of wealth); (5) be humble and inclusive.
Please note that the two lists are hardly mutually exclusive.
Francis seems to be trying his best, in the face of the truly entrenched status quo, to bring the imperative back to the center of Catholic thought and practice. He has faith--based on reason--that should the Church embrace anew the imperative, then the young, including those of the West, will find the Church of interest...and a blessing.
I'm not Catholic, but I am a Christian and, also, a practicing physical scientist. I 'get' what Francis is trying to do. I 'get' what his obstacles are. I applaud him.
There is a difference between "fact" and "truth."
4
The Second Vatican Council did not take up the issue of celibacy. It was on the agenda but then removed before any discussion took place.
At the time I was at Kenrick Theological Seminary and we received a message form Cardinal Ritter, a participant in the Council, that if anyone thought mandatory celibacy was going to be lifted they should leave immediately.
I made the mistake of staying.
Diocesan priest do not take a vow of celibacy. They are forbidden by canon law from marrying -to preserve a Middle Ages real estate contract.
54
@Michael W. As a former cleric-in-training, I am sorry for what you sacrificed.
2
@Michael W. Could you write more about that "Middle Ages real estate contract?" Does it have to do with laws of inheritance? Just curious....
3