I will comment as a Brit that voted to leave the EU. My views have not changed and neither have those of my friends and acquaintances who hold our sovereignty sacrosanct. The Establishment and vested interests have done all they can to thwart Brexit by any means, even compromising our democracy that now appears to be an illusion. Britain is not finished but belief in our politicians is, many being viewed as traitors willing to sell out our sovereignty and independence. Furthermore we have been a loyal friend to Ireland, not so long ago bailing her out to the tune of billions.
The EU focussed on the Irish border issue after failing to gain any traction over its initial device to make Gibraltar and Spain's claim an issue. Free movement and right of UK residency by Irish citizens has been in place before the EU's existence.
It is generally forgotten that the loss to the EU by Britain's departure is equal to the loss that would be felt by the departure of nineteen of the smaller EU states.
Britain is a major world power in its own right, economically, militarily and with enormous soft power. Many have a historic desire to see us fail but in the real world that is not going to happen.
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@midenglander
Britain also has a responsibility and a pivotal role in keeping peace on the continent. The presence of the UK as an integral part of the EU is critical for that.
Just get over your pride and the need to make some compromises for the greater good.
I could claim with equal right that Germany should take its place again as the central power and leader of Europe.
England would be the first to howl, closely followed by France. And in no time would be be back where we were in 1914.
The planet has shrunken considerably since then and to solve the problems that endanger the very survival of humanity as we know it require us to eventually form a unified planetary government. If the UK cannot even coexist within a united Europe from which it benefited immensely without pouting, how do you envisage surviving global warming, overpopulation, etc?
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@midenglander You're hanging onto the past. The bailout was a loan that's being repaid. Ireland isn't clutching at Britain's coattails. A "major world power?," with "enormous soft power?" Sounds like a contradiction to me, that is if you accept that the first proposition is a fact. A "loyal friend to Ireland?" Please, give me a break (that is not my neck, as J.P. Donleavy said). Your entire history with Ireland since the 1200s or so has been at best patronizing, at worst feudal and oppressive.
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@midenglander You refer to the referendum as an exercise in democracy. In some ways it was, in many others it wasn't. Democracy requires for example a responsible media which exercises its duty for responsible journalism - a rare occurrence in the U.K. When democracy is exercised via a referendum, and especially on a topic as complicated as Brexit is, it is fundamental that the issues in question are fully understood and their detail eviscerated completely and honestly - something which certainly did not happen at all, nor, realistically, could it happen. The leave campaign was a campaign based on lies and half truths, fomenting plenty of intolerance and hatred. Following the referendum it transpired clearly that many of the U.K. politicians themselves did not even have the most basic of notions of how the EU worked, let alone the population at large. The Irish border issue was simply not dealt with. As a remainer I admit that the remain campaign was simply woeful. Now the British people know more. Another referendum would be dutiful.
All that said, frankly after the clear and wholly misplaced hostility towards the EU, as a European I have reached the conclusion that probably it is better for the EU that the U.K leaves. And should it apply to rejoin (as it most likely will have to do), I would be very reluctant to allow it in again, and certainly not unless it accepts the Euro, Schengen and free movement, clearly no rebate or any other preferential treatment.
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Another crapulous day in British politics ended as it toppled drunkenly over the rail of its hotel balcony. Lately, they’ve all been ending like that
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Well it doesn’t because a no-deal scenario would wreak havoc with the Irish economy
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@Andrew Hadland
1. The economic effect of a no deal is similar to the deal offered by Johnson: and even worst case still leaves Ireland with a positive growth rate higher than any achieved in the UK in the 9 of the past 10 years.
2. In any case, there are things far more important than economics. There is no price not worth paying to resist the eternal subjugation demanded by the UK. It is not accepted and would never be accepted. The UK either complies with its obligations or it will suffer no deal until it breaks apart or comes to its senses.
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Just a thought: isn't " Northen Ireland" a colony, an outdated remnant of the British Empire?
Wouldn't be simpler to accept the reunification of Ireland, as was the case for Germany?
Should the Unionists be allowed to decide for the UK and even for the EU?
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Shortly after the Good Friday agreement I spent nearly 2 years in Dundalk helping a multinational set up a business. The open border absolutely helped us recruit excellent talent from both Ireland and Northern Ireland. We also found cross border suppliers and shipping lanes that could help us save money. This Brexit border plan will clearly impede such enterprises in the future. It will also reduce economic opportunities and, potentially, freedom on movement for the good people in this region. Ireland is right to take the position that the Prime Minister has selected.
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If there were doubts, the solidarity of the 26 with the small island nation of Ireland affirms this EU is an immense event in the history of Europe. It is Europe's finest hour. The nations that will be most damaged, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium are foremost in support of Ireland. Macron, Merkel have shown more respect for the great accomplishment of the Good Friday Accord than London. Pride to be Irish, equally proud European. The EU has confronted its most immense challenge.
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Is the Sun about to set on England itself? The Bull Dog is whining and Sir Winston is rolling in his grave ... Alas! Alack !
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Looks like the Freedom Torch has returned to the other side of the Pond.
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If Britain applies for another extension from the European Union, the EU should grant it only under one condition: a second referendum on Brexit.
Through Mr. Johnson's actions, it's becoming more and more obvious with each passing day that Brexit is not about what the British people want, but what Britain's conservative politicians and their supporters want.
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On a sliding scale as it approaches no deal, the consequences of Brexit for Ireland North and South become increasingly dire. Notwithstanding this I think it is fair to say that there is a certain satisfaction in non unionist Ireland that the traditional relationship with Britain has become inverted.
Historically I would imagine that the major powers probably sympathised with Ireland and its struggles, but given the the size and importance of Britain it was never likely to develop beyond that. However Britain's decision to demote itself has changed that dynamic, such that Europe is now firmly on our side and there are even soundings coming from the US that any action that threatens the Good Friday Agreement will consequently threaten any future trade deals between the two countries.
There is still an even chance that Brexit won't happen, which is by far the best outcome. Most people on the island of Ireland that don't have an ulterior agenda will hope for that. If it does go ahead, the feelings that exist for the Tory right wing and the nationalist right wing media will reach new levels of contempt. The economic damage will be severe, but if history teaches us anything, it is that psychological damage can last much longer and reach across generations.
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@Cathal F I agree with all you say, except for that the best thing is that Brexit does not happen. And I am an ardent European Federalist - in the true sense of the word. However, too much water has passed under the bridge and in truth as a European who lives in the U.K. (not for long) I see too much hostility towards us Europeans and towards the very notion of the EU among the English. The best is that the U.K. leaves. My guess is that within 10 - 20 years both Northern Ireland as well as Scotland will leave the union, and they will be most welcome back into the EU.
But as far as I can see, it is truly dangerous business trusting the English - and I say that with deep regret and sadness.
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This article misleadingly implies that Ireland is blocking a new Brexit deal. But in fact, most EU member countries would still reject Boris Johnson's "plan" even if Ireland supported it. Boris has offered talking points rather than a proposal with all the intricate details necessary to address the hugely complicated issues of splitting the UK market from the EU market.
And Ireland's issue isn't just about peace in Northern Ireland, critical as that is. The big practical issue is that most Irish exports to the rest of Europe travel by road through Britain. Even if the "backstop" of free movement between Ireland and N Ireland is maintained, Irish goods still face long delays at the tunnel border between the UK and France.
I don't think the Irish are feeling "powerful" so much as resentful about UK recklessness once again harming Ireland. An especially telling illustration of British disdain is that almost 2/3 Tories (Boris Johnson's party) would choose Brexit over keeping N Ireland and Scotland in the UK. In other words, the party of empire would rather split the country apart than stay in the EU.
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I do not read this article as Ireland blocking a deal. Because the deal is not done by Ireland. It is done between the EU and UK. Ireland is the sympathetic chip in the matter. No doubt the continental Europeans enjoy having Leo as a Brave Hearted Lion opposite Boris the English Lion with the shabby mane. The UK is blocking its own exit while it has set its Parliament on fire.
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@stephen beck "In other words, the party of empire would rather split the country apart than stay in the EU".....hits the nail on the head....and says it all really. That is the true cause of all the resentment of the English towards the EU not issues of sovereignty (I never felt that our sovereignty was in any way impeded) or of poverty or anything similar. Just a refusal to abide by the rules which every other country has accepted.
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I am loving this
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And today an Irishman from County Kerry was named as the next chief executive of BP, one of the UK's largest companies.
https://www.investegate.co.uk/bp-plc--bp--/rns/bp-ceo-dudley-to-retire--bernard-looney-succeeds-/201910040700057853O/
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@J.J. Hunsecker
Well if There's ever another BP oil spill in the States he should go down better than the painfully English; Tony 'I want my life back' hayward.
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How interesting that while the once great democracies of England and America have been saddled with egomaniacal clowns...A doctor in Ireland tries to lead Boris back from the Brexit ledge, and a comedian in Ukraine must tap dance while Trump pretends he's The Godfather and shoots all around him.
Boris and Don, has either country ever had worse or dimmer?
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@ frankly32... 2 mostly uninformed and selfindulgent electorates have sent in the malevolent clowns. Now we're all involved in frightening, nightmarish circuses.
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Plus a Canadian in a brown face costume. Ugh, where does it end ?
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@Pat Richards Uninformed or extremely gullible?
It should be noted that neither "leader" won by a majority of the electorates.
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Leo Varadkar got huge support today from Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen, you know, the one who stood up to Trump on buying Greenland?
'Ms Frederiksen said she did not believe Ireland should be put under pressure to offer concessions in order to get a deal. "I think the rest of Europe should stand together with Ireland as we have done," she told the media.'
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Just desserts. The Irish have suffered a foreign (Norman/English) lodgment on their territory since 1170. English suppression of the Irish resembles German and Russian of the Poles. Long past time they left.
As for Brexit and its ultimate impact on the United Kingdom, I believe it will sunder it, why Putin supports it so enthusiastically.
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Ireland is defending peace on the island. Bravo
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Watch US born playwright, author and academic Bonnie Greer on BBC show Newsnight. Speaking the truth.
https://mobile.twitter.com/newschambers/status/1179884485904605186?s=12
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This is GREAT! After all these years, Ireland RULES!
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The majority for Brexit was no supermajority. And the people of Great Britain were promised a pipe dream - leave the EU and suffer no costs. Instead, they now have a rough draft of what it will look like and the costs are great and increasingly clear to the public. Democracy calls for a ranked choice 2nd referendum on Brexit with various options and tradeoffs including the option of Remain.
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Good heavens... someone has to be discussing reunification.
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@Paul Corr Yes, Dublin University released a report last week €39 Billion a year it will cost and that's before any security bill.
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@Paul Corr you read my mind. I have read a few stories recently about how the voting youth of N. Ireland and Ireland don't have the same energy as their grandparents to return to "the troubles". They want jobs and peace, and they aren't banging down the doors of Catholic or Protestant churches on Sunday.
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@Paul Corr Truth be told reunification is a talking shop sideshow thanks to the Good Friday agreement, identities are fluid, there is peace and a focus on getting along. But of course Brexit is not designed to accommodate the status quo of cooperation and the all Ireland economy.
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I’m a very patriotic Brit. But I hope that I know my Irish history, unlike, it seems, the self absorbed ignoramuses that currently run the show over here. What’s the key lesson? British leaders who treat Ireland with disregard should fear the consequences. I’m not sure that I fear the return of IRA terrorism to the streets of London, though one must not be complacent. Far more importantly, Ireland as part of the EU is hugely more powerful than we are. Thankfully, its polity is consensual and mild and its leaders, like those of the EU, have their remit clearly constrained by law. As a result, we have to believe that they will use their authority constructively. Unlike the rackety bunch of chancers currently squatting in Downing St.
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@lilaccruiser -
What possible reason could the IRA have in “returning” to London in a military capacity if the UK quits occupied Ireland? It will scatter rose petals on London’s streets, if anything.
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@lilaccruiser True, and hats off for your honesty. However it is also true that every people has the government it deserves; with regret I do not believe that the chancers the U.K is run by are where they are by chance. Hard truth is that come the election the conservative bandits currently running the show will most likely win, and will have a majority in Parliament.....thanks to the ridiculous and antidemocratic first by the post system of the U.K.....
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The Irish owe the British absolutely nothing. They have been enslaved, starved and treated like second class citizens by Britain for a millennium. My recommendation is that they hold their ground, buy some popcorn and enjoy the show. This whole Brexit mess was created by the U.K. and falls generally into the category of 'What goes around comes around'.
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@Dennis W, we won't enjoy a hard Brexit. In fact, any form of Brexit will hurt our economy, it's just a case of how much pain and where will it hurt most.
The Brexit mess is actually a Conservative party split. The only places that voted for Brexit were Tory parts of England and Wales. Northern Ireland and Scotland voted to remain within the EU, as did many major cities in England.
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A no-deal Brexit will hit trade very badly
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@gf why not have a second referendum? Is it the structure of your laws or conservative determination?
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The Cornerstone of the Good Friday Agreement was cross community support, in the latest poll the backstop as agreed by Varadkar/EU has been rejected by 81% of Unionists, therefore is a material breach of the Good Friday Agreement.
The press is not reporting the simmering anger in the unionist community, whose voice is being ignored by Varadkar and the EU.
Should the backstop come into force then the Good Friday Agreement will be dead in the water.
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Section 10(2)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 explicitly commits the UK not to “create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls, that did not exist before exit day and are not in accordance with an agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU”.
That is British law. Now if you could come up with a solution that somehow matches this requirement of British law with the requirements of border controls insisted by the WTO (and control of our borders was a key demand of those arguing for Brexit).
Please, any solution.
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@Cuthbert Dude, nobody on the mainland cares about N Ireland Unionists, least of all the English (you've prob. got some sympathy still from the Welsh and Scots along devolution lines.). You'll be abandoned by Britain as soon as it can safely do so. Best get a government in place in N. Ireland, quickly. EU is best place for you, stick with it.
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Can you truly say that the backstop is damaging unionists interests when even the former DUP deputy leader says its a good thing. What’s the alternative to a hard border and strife. Out of the laager please.
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Wonderful arguments for "Nationalists" of whatever stripe. Trump self-impeaches, BOJO reduces GREAT britain to england, maybe minus Scotland, Northern Ireland, and potentially, Wales.
Long live the colonial empires.
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At the moment, the Brits can't even hold an election for PM, much less another referendum. So Prime Minister Varadkar can state his opposition to a hard border all he wants. It will be the EU that does it for him.
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Disruption that has not been well reasoned out rarely ends well.
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There is a simple answer to this problem, but after 800 years in Ireland, England isn't going to choose the very difficult decision it would have to make.
After all, why give back something one country took so long ago. That would be like asking the US to give America back to the "Indians."
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I’m a lifelong Anglophile - half my family even liven in there - but Brexit has turned into such a self-inflicted farce that if England goes through with it I hope they get punished.
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@Andy Problem is that together with the English (the prime perpetrators of the nonsense and deceit that Brexit is) even others will suffer.......and all through no fault of theirs......and all because the English have decided to yet again live up to their reputation of "perfidious Albion" as Shakespeare himself describe them......
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Question; If there is a no deal Brexit, won't there have to be border checks at crossings between the 2 Irelands?
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Yes. It is required by the WTO - so can’t be avoided by either side. However, as soon as British checkpoints go up in Ireland - they can expect to be the victims of terror attacks (imagine your reaction to Cuba put up checkpoints on your way to work - the reaction in ireland would be much worse). Once the border posts are attacked, in comes the British army, and the violence starts all over again. Not something anyone wants, but only a fool (ie Johnson) would mess with such a delicate situation from such a position of total ignorance.
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@David Higgins Thank you--that's what I thought. Doesn't that make no deal worse than the latest Johnson offer?
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@David Higgins Thanks , I understand better the problem.
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This guy sounds mighty sensible. A shame he's not the UK PM.
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Why doesn't the UK simply allow the island of Ireland to unite as one Ireland?
As an Irish-American, I was shocked to read of the one thousand year enslavement of the Irish by the British.
The UK purposely created this problem: divide and conquer. They put a part of Oman in the middle of one of the UAE emirates. It was like a circle encircled by another country, without direct electricity, etc. for years. Then Oman began border checks on entering and departing from that small area.
The UK is responsible, historically, for so much damage to peoples around the world, I have little empathy left for any remnants of their former glory: "The sun never sets on the British Empire."
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Look up "Loyalism in Northern Ireland" for an answer.
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Boris Johnson's bullying behaviors are not playing well outside of Britain. The E.U. is not folding. The Irish are not folding. The Scots are considering what their next move is; should a no-deal Brexit occur.
The real damage to Britain will be after they crash out of the E.U. Their country will be looked at with suspicion. Their deep desire to control others will be laughed at during all trade negotiations. They will find that being on the outside will feel very lonely.
Johnson has not only become his own worst enemy; he has become Britain's worst enemy over the long term.
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@Bryan
They said far worse about Theresa May. It is Parliament that can't figure out how to govern that is the main problem. They should try a written constitution, if they get the change.
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@Bryan Inevitable after a 3 year self indulgent binge comes a 10 year hangover. Every hour this continues there's payback accruing.
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