To me, a wholly irrelegious person, the question is, what preserves the spirit better, the builging of the house of worship or its community. I am inclined to the significance of the building. The parishioners may "gyre and gimble in ecstasy in the wabe" elsewhere, but it is the temple that incarnates the spirit of the faith.
In the 80's there was a deal structured to ground lease a beautiful Park Avenue church property that needed funds and renovations. The Ground Lease would allow the development of a tall structure and include in a portion of it a church community hall. At the end of the construction, the church would receive ground rent for 99 years and occupy the community hall and spaces. If the ground lease failed, the church would obtain the whole project free. Win win. One also was structured for a synagogue some decades later. Keep the land, enjoy a new church/synagogue space and get rental income. In the end inherit the improvements for future generations and never lose the land. Consider.
1
Well that's what happens as a result of all of the Catholic church's scandals and crimes. People leave and properties have to be sold off to pay lawsuits.
1
This story is all about transformation of church property into residential housing, sometimes low income. Not mentioned is the impact of converting non taxable property-religious properties are exempt from property tax- into tax generating property, producing revenue for the city. I’m not too sad about reducing the number of churches, which often have minimal attendance. It seems like there are no barriers to declaring an edifice a church.
5
@Francine Schwartz I agree! There is so much valuable city real estate that belongs to religious institutions that pay little to no taxes. I would rather have more development with more taxes paid and more money for schools, libraries, and parks.
5
The church at the corner of Margaret and York in Sydney sold their air space. The church is still on the ground floor, and a high rise apartment building is on top. The ground floor also has a coffee shop. Everybody won.
2
Churches in Harlem have been very poor stewards of their properties and have only themselves to blame for their current situation. Two churches in my neighborhood are the perfect example of why it’s actually a good thing to have someone, anyone, come in and take over the properties.
One, Convent Avenue Baptist Church, owns a number of brownstones that are so poorly maintained that they have been tagged by the fire department as “do not enter” in case of a fire. They’re missing windows, open to the elements, and full of squatters. They endanger the whole block by bringing in crime, drugs and prostitution, and were they ever to catch fire, they would endanger all the adjacent properties because the fire department would not respond aggressively since the buildings are too dangerous for them to enter.
Another, a church on 141st and Hamilton Terrace is so poorly maintained that it is crumbling before our very eyes. It’s too dangerous to use the knave, so what few sermons do occur are given in a small room in the basement. The building is now completely tarped to prevent falling debris from injuring passerby’s and we are just waiting for the demolition order because the building is not structurally sound.
These buildings should be sold. They are a blight on the community and do not serve their congregations. The culprit in case of the Baptist Church it is pure greed. In the case of the other church, a beautiful building will be lost because they refused to face reality.
5
I have heard about groups of people belonging to the Episcopal Church in Michigan that flock to churches slated for sale of demolition so to fill the church with people on its last Sunday of service. The small group of local members can thus remember what it felt like to have the church filled with people celebrating together.
3
I fail to see why Gail Brewer does not encourage this process. The congregations get a bailout for their failing enterprises, and the city gets an enhanced tax base. It's clearly a win-win situation.
8
Church Property that has been tax exempt as a non profit or so called religion should be subject to back taxes when sold. What a racket. There is no reason a religious organization should get away with selling property without paying a tax. The biggest tax exempt racket in any town is likely to be a fake mega church or 5th rate right wing "university" using tax payer dollars and tax exemptions as profit centers.
22
Ehh...hem..Rockland County
4
Build wealth without paying taxes. Cash in without paying taxes. Churches aren't too different than the 1%'ers are they.
17
Well, yes. Since you asked, churches are quite different than the 1 percent. Church buildings house social services—the food pantry where I volunteer is in a church, my kids’ school started out in a church, and our local refugee service organization is in our church. Not to mention Head Start...a homeless service organization...all housed, and often run by, our neighborhood churches.
1
This religion has gotten tax breaks for years, while espousing pie in the sky salvation, if only they gave more and more of their meager wages they would have a place in heaven...Yeah right!
They are as morally corrupt as any politician that has existed, are bigger liars than anyone I know (except for politicians) and are blatant hypocrites to what they espouse as to what they practice. They have caused more wars, (see the middle east), they discriminate, hate, and claim their religion is the only true religion....and that's only the Christians.
11
All the money the church gets selling any property, should been given to the victims of sexual abuse hidden by the church forever.
18
@Mick Not every church is the Roman Catholic church. Their systemic practice of sheltering and enabling abusers is not shared by all Christian congregations.
6
Religious leaders should not ponder, instead they should pray and hold on to the building given by God.
Religious leaders most definitely should ponder! (After all, Mary pondered all these things...). Holding onto decrepit buildings intended to serve hundreds (that are now serving just dozens of people) is a waste of church resources. Pastors who do that are failing to be good stewards of the money that previous generations donated and they are running their churches into the ground. Selling a building and then using that money to fund the work of the church (in a smaller space) is a faithful response.
If only most of these developments could adapt and augment the original building for truly affordable housing. The razing of the pre-Civil War Carpenter Gothic wood frame church at 809 Jefferson in Bed Stuy and the unsympathetic alteration and removal of the spire of the church at 628 Bushwick Avenue in Bushwick were terrible losses for Brooklyn.
9
Churches in thriving urban areas occupy some of the only spaces that might offer room for development.
What is disheartening that there isn't more a push for use of this long untaxed property is not used for affordable - low and middle income apartments - for those people shoved out of neighborhoods through gentrification ( there must be a better word, since developers are going way beyond upgrades to wiping out older housing stock entirely, and replacing it with high end homes).
That's my main issue.
A few may have great historic value, but not all churches fit that category. If they aren't used for worship, and they are simply sinking into disrepair -- why not repurpose the property?
10
These churches are not taxed, their leaders often preach against the LGBTQ+ community and their declining congregations necessitate their closing and repurposing. Boston's historic South End, for example, has repurposed at least a dozen of these churches in the last 20 years adding literally millions of tax dollars to the city's coffers. these closed or decaying churches are now condominiums with vibrant, tax paying residents. What's wrong with that?
9
@MA Harry They are not preaching against LGBTQ community. That is your opinion. They are standing by their moral principles and the Bible. if you don't like it, then follow a different religion that allows that behavior.
2
You are just wrong.
The Bible is subject to interpretation. Those who preach against the LGBTQ community are not simply preaching the Bible or relaying their “moral principles” — they are manipulating people to serve their own ends.
Jesus certainly never spoke out against LBGTQ individuals.
13
@MA Harry, many churches in this city - of various denominations - not only do NOT preach against the LGBTQ community, but welcome members of the LGBTQ community, encourage them to take active roles in the churches, and offer ministries, events, and services to this community.
There are at least 4 Catholic parishes in Manhattan that I know of with such LGBTQ ministries, as well as other denominations, including Episcopalian, Unitarian, some synagogues, and others.
6
While this redevelopment concept works in urban areas, the reality is that rural depopulation, demographic and ethnic change are resulting in rural churches closing, being sold and turned into homes (at best) or simply being abandoned, eventually to be torn down. No one makes much money. The rural church, having lost it's core people and core mission, withers and dies. Rural is just different.
3
@DKS
That's happened in the rural area I grew up in ( Upstate NY) Old line denominations have shrunk, and there is no money or human power to maintain facilities for a handful of (usually) aging congregants. Some groups have united with others, but some simply die off along with their members.
2
If religious institutions are making money by selling their properties then they must pay back to the government all the tax breaks, with accrued interest, that they got while they operated as religious institutions.
They must also pay the capital gains tax that individuals have to pay when they have capital gains from the sale of their properties.
13
@Indian Diner: So you've issued your ruling! We've been waiting so long to hear your requirements. All of us will now hop to it!
2
The loss of the the Church of the Redeemer remains a tragedy, easily assessed by a glance down 4th from the entrance to Atlantic-Barclays.
I am sorry for everyone passing through that wind tunnel who can’t recall the lovely shelter that church provided for almost 150 years.
13
"On the list of potentially threatened sites, which Ms. Brewer’s office is reluctant to broadcast over fears it might have the unintended effect of piquing developers’ interest..."
And then the NYT broadcasts specific examples around the world.
Really? Was that necessary? Not the first time the issue of poor discretion and judgement has been on judgement in the past couple of weeks.
5
In its earliest days, to practice or profess Christianity was to break the law. Punishment was extreme. Christians did indeed sometimes get fed to the lions or endure other barbaric forms of punishment.
To be a Christian in those days was to be a *committed* believer, as you were putting your very life at risk.
In order to stay under the radar of the authorities, they took turns holding worship services in each others' homes.
In other words, it's not about the building.
Having said all that, I sincerely hope we don't get rid of the largest, most ornate churches in our world. They are architectural and historical gems.
8
@Astrid: So it kind of IS about the building, after all!
2
@L
The practice of Christianity is NOT about the building. (At least it shouldn't be.)
From an historical building and architectural perspective, it IS about the building.
8
So prophetic and ominous to see the membership decline and sale of churches only to be replaced by expensive housing that only high income earners and the rich can afford.
11
From a public spaces that are built on the idea of a community of love and caring for the least of these, to a private space based on the idea of profit over all. The real religion of America, Capitalism. Worship at the Bank.
15
I see the stone facade, slate roof, copper ridge rolls, gothic architecture, craftsmanship and history and am saddened it will be razed to make way for something so aesthetically offensive to the surrounding neighborhood. The developer could have incorporated parts of it into the new building's design.
8
The catholic church in Bath Beach, Brooklyn, St Frances Cabrini, is poorly attended, an eyesore and a noise polluter. It broadcasts an automatic carillon 4 times a day during the week and 10 times on Sunday. To add irritation to noise pollution, it plays Schubert's "Ave Maria" very, very badly and very loudly 2X a day. That's 730 times a year that mostly non-catholic neighbors are subjected to this monotonous pollution. This church is a 6 block walk from the nearest other catholic church, St Bernadette's that also broadcasts music even more times a day.
Selling St Frances which is on a busy commercial street across from a car dealership and a small strip mall would net the church $$millions. Combining the churches would strengthen weak attendance in both. And, all that money could go to the support of the poor for housing and food.
Time for the Brooklyn Diocese to put its money where its faith is.
7
Presbyterian churches regularly take over and purchase churches that other faiths have abandoned. Moving a church to a new loca6that suits the current congregation may make sense.
2
Consolidate congregations. It's about all you can do, at this point in history. You're not likely to grow any bigger.
6
and...they should darn well pay taxes on the sale.
9
In France since 1905 all religious buildings belong to the state, which is officially secular. The members of the related religions may use them for their purposes, but that is all. That makes a lot of sense.
3
@Richard Johnston: Yes, but we have that pesky thing known as 'separation of church and state' here in the USA!
1
I wish we did.
1
@Richard Johnston This policy did not work out too well for Notre Dame. It has been described as the worse maintained cathedral in Europe since spending money to maintain the building was controversial for the secular Parisians.
2
I have thought for a long time that the myth of Jesus will fade away like Zeus did in other societies. Many old and mid- century churches in Denver are being turned into condos, too.
So fleet the works of men, back to their earth again;Ancient and holy things fade like a dream.
Charles Kingsley
7
@Mamie Watts: Don't hold your breath; it's only been 2,000 years and Christianity still has billions of believers! The reality that is Jesus will never 'fade away.'
2
I'll take capitalism over religion any day. The Church of the Redeemer is hideous, but 5-6-1 Pacific is even worse.
1
Not just churches. The Lower East Side has endured the loss of several historic synagogues to developer dollars. Not even the offered intervention of charitable dollars to keep the houses of worship going in the face of dwindling congregants was enough to resist the temptation to cash out.
3
Predictably the militant religion-haters are out in force, while giving the apostles of greedy capitalistic mammon a free pass. Who is driving the middle class out of our major cities leaving them to the "market rate" condo yuppie instant millionaire millennial buyers?
Hint: It is not ministers, priests or rabbis. It is the quick buck maximize profit at all costs developers, sometimes with foreign money no less. If cities want affordable housing then as noted in the article they have to highlight and push those already existing programs working with houses of worship. Work with the congregation to assure that affordable apartments along with an incorporated worship space replaces the leaky falling apart relic which describes too many houses of worship these days.
4
As a recently retired attorney, I should be able, easily, to get a real-estate-broker's license … then, as a 'long-since-retired' Catholic (Brooklyn Irish type), I shall endeavor to get 'listings' for both "Old' and New" St. Patrick's Cathedrals in New York County.
(I have confidence that the NY Archdiocese of 'The One True Church,' and the Vatican, too, would 'love to list' -- if then only to have the very, very many millions that sales of just those 2 of their hundreds of NYC-wide properties would bring -- but none that any truly charitable uses would be 'made' of the receipts.)
2
And there's more. From California: the San Diego Catholic Diocese sold 11 acres of land surrounded on three sides by a protected habitat preserve to a politically connected developer who was able to obtain a zoning change to build a massive office complex for a profit to the buyer worth millions. The land was designated for a neighborhood serving church that would blend in with the open space. Note: the Church got it for a song, sold it for a song, and Cisterra Development makes out like a bandit. Church loses; public loses; environment biggest loser.
8
I fail to see a problem warranting an article. Diminishing parishioner bases and growing secularization translate into more tax revenue for the city, more people being housed and fewer people being led astray, molested and shamed by tax-freeloading charlatans, whose ancient claims of invisible omniscient daddies in the clouds have provoked wars, atrocities, suicide and self-loathing of every non-conformist and free thinker since Galileo. The Vatican Bank is still the richest corporation on the planet, with hidden assets in the TRILLIONS, while millions of its members in Africa, Asia and Latin America go homeless, hungry, unloved and unheard. The best thing that can happen to the world is we shake off millenia of superstition and deal with the very real, observable and palpable problems effecting human existence. If we channeled the time and energy of supplicants whipping themselves into paroxyms of self-loathing over "original sin" into feeding, healing and caring for our fellow humans, we would advance civilization further than all religion has done in recorded history. Let science and free thought flourish, and primitive superstition go the way of the Neanderthal by taxing churches that brought us the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, the genocide of indigenous peoples, the burning of witches and the torture of scientists for 'heresy'. Make every church a homeless shelter, drug rehab center, a playground or food bank and watch this city thrive.
9
As the Catholic population of NYC dwindles we will see more Catholic churches and schools sold to developers. Even here on heavily-Catholic Staten Island it's happening. Many of these churches and schools are in desirable neighborhoods.
St. John's Villa school and campus was sold to the NYCDOE last year. I would have preferred that a tax-paying developer buy the land and put up large homes. Beautiful views of the Verrazzano from the location.
https://www.silive.com/news/2018/07/new_york_city_will_acquire_st.html
1
Taxpayer must be a developer because Staten Island has too many homes and not enough open space. After the debacle of the Mt. Manresa destruction, elected officials woke up to ensure that the tree-lined Villa property nearby will remain as a needed school. The churches should not be allowed to sell for profit when the public has supported them, and locals need to weigh in on important land use matters affecting their neighborhoods and biggest investment - their homes and quality of life.
2
@glorybe I'm not a developer. SI may have too any homes but he Villa property is zoned R1-2 which permits only 1-family homes which would contribute to the tax base, unlike a school. The Mount Manresa situation is different because that property is zoned for attached 1 and 2 family townhomes which is overbuilding.
Are churches paying taxes on these transactions?
1
In this nihilistic society where the only god is green paper. It’s sad to see how many people don’t think they need to worship to the creator of all things. Money and greed is not the answer to life. There is no shortage of housing either, but when you only build high priced condos you obviously aren’t marketing to the working class
9
What a horror that new building looks like. A sad day
2
A property that serves 35 people a few hours a week, or one that provides 326 homes in perpetuity? (Yes new homes in NYC are expensive, but that’s 326 units of lesser housing made available to others)
Of all of the crises declared daily by the NYT, housing is the biggest to the typical New Yorker, yet it’s left out of this particular conversation. Why? Too tempting to vilify developers. Another theme not explicitly spelled out here but alluded to: organized religion is dying. But sure blame ‘gentrification.’
4
@Andy Deckman, many churches in this city are open all week, not just on Sunday, and serve thousands of people with food pantries, soup kitchens, addiction recovery programs, counseling, adult education, concerts, homeless shelters, and more.
3
@doy1 Very true. And some are during the week open for quiet individual prayer and contemplation, a blessing amid the bustle and noise of the city.
Mr. Wilson of Second Canaan is the smart one, and other pastors should take note: If you're selling, make it a condition that you will CO-DEVELOP your site - then you've secured ongoing income for your worship community.
3
[[“There are so many churches that say they have 500 people but only 35 show up on Sunday.”]]
Yeah, well, there you go.
3
@Third.Coast, my church (Catholic) has thousands of members, and several hundred show up at EACH of the masses on Saturday evenings plus four more on Sundays. The 11am mass on Sunday is often standing room only.
Many of us also serve in active leadership roles and as volunteers for the church's outreach and charitable programs.
This is true of each of the several other Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish congregations in my neighborhood alone.
1
@doy1
I don’t care.
Imagine if all religions and religious property ownership was given a timeline to leave wealthy areas and to only exist in low and middle income areas. Seems hard to believe that all religions whose purpose is to spread the word of god need to exist in rich areas to coddle the wealthy. Some of the wealthy want the religious attachment and do not want to practice their faith in middle and low income areas. Maybe by having religious organizations in wealthy areas only corruption occurs currently and historically. If religious entities sold their most expensive properties they could take the funds and help the poor by simply relocating. Should any religious organization own art work and wealthy pieces of real estate while the homeless sleep right in front of their edifices. Most likely the opposite will happen as wealth is a magnet for most religious organizations who get caught up in the wealth game. Whether a temple on Park Avenue or a church on fifth avenue, god is everywhere and for all. The buildings can easily change locations for god is everywhere.
2
@Ralph Petrillo: You seem to believe a new glassy tower where St. Patrick's is on 5th Avenue would be a real crowd-pleaser and draw a ton of tourists, right? it would just make NYC that much more 'anywheresville.'
4
@Ralph Petrillo, houses of worship in NYC can be found in all neighborhoods, from the poorest to the richest, and among all the many different ethnic communities in this city.
It isn't only the poor who seek God and spiritual sustenance or enlightenment. And most of us prefer to worship in our own neighborhoods, where our houses of worship also offer community, fellowship, and support.
1
The loss of so many beautiful old buildings is a tragedy, and the real estate deals being struck are often cynical money grabs that only benefit the developers. The congregations are dying out so completely that these demolish and repurpose moves are coming too late. There's plenty of talk of replacing the churches with "affordable" housing, but that never happens, it's always condos for the 1%. Meanwhile the cityscape is being brutalized. And it isn't just houses of worship that are going down in the current feeding frenzy; I'm seeing profit-driven uglification all over the City, including in historic districts.
17
For me the best news in this piece is that it presents more evidence of the decline of religion and progress towards a more secular, rational society.
11
There's nothing new to this.
My Dutch ancestors worshiped at Marble Collegiate Church when it was founded in a barn near Wall Street in 1628. The congregation has moved several times since then. In church histories there isn't a whole lot of complaint. In all cases the building was in need of repairs and didn't have enough space for its functions. Marble Collegiate is still a working congregation along with its collegiate partners.
My mother attended Bushwick Methodist-Episcopal church in the 1930s and 1940s. When I went back it was closed and all the records transferred a few times so that no one knows where anything is anymore. It once was the pulpit of Norman Vincent Peale before he accepted a call to Marble Collegiate.
My old church, The Reformed Church Of South Bushwick was there when I last visited but in terrible shape. They'll have a tough time taking it down because it's on the Historical Register. It was also known as the White Church because it is made of wood and painted white. Himrod Street which starts at the parsonage was named for the first pastor there.
3
Author Albert Payson Terhune's father was pastor at a Dutch Reformed Church either in Bushwick or in Fort Greene. In those days, there were a couple of Dutch speakers left.
And even more so in the Ramapos, near where the Rev. Terhune had a house that later became Sunnybank (home of Lad). Terhune remembers paying house calls with his father, in horse and buggy, and listening to conversations in Dutch.
3
I have no problem with churches being sold to developers. Well, except for a few historic churches.
I had a Canadian friend who is a Lutheran Minister. He moved down to the US and of course, his views were far too liberal for church goes in this country.
So since priests are so conservative, by all means, let the free market prevail. If they can't get enough perisioners to keep going, tear them down. If they engage in Politics from the pulpit, get rid of their tax exemptions, and if they can't pay the taxes, tear them down.
17
Gone are the days when churches demanded and received tithes from their parishioners even when they were impoverished. Almost every community has at least one of these antiquated buildings which are decaying, hard to heat, have leaking roofs, and very few attendees. This has not stopped some churches from fundraising from parishioners who can barely make ends meet.
It is logical to get rid of these money pits and pray in smaller more suitable locations. Every church is not worthy of historic status and many should be demolished. If something is worth saving, like beautiful stain glass windows, they can be moved to another location.
There are too many tax exempt properties. Selling the buildings should bring money into the city coffers. Selling unused properties will allow the churches to pay their debts, which one denomination in particular, has been trying to avoid.
8
@S.L. : "There are too many tax exempt properties." Well, if you're looking to limit tax exemptions, take a look at the obscenely tall glass towers on Billionaire's Row, most of which have huge tax exemptions. I think that people who can afford a $50 million condo that they use a few weeks a year can afford to pay taxes, and a lot of them!
If you think churches shouldn't be exempt, why should billionaires be exempt, esp. when most of the billionaires are just using their condo purchases to shelter or launder money?
15
In many ways, sad to read. While increasing housing stock in the City is a laudable goal, with it comes grievous losses in solace and beauty.
The City is a a whir of busyness and noise. Houses of worship, much like parks, are little oases of repose and solace in a hectic, urban landscape. Public parks are much more well-used than many houses of worship for the purpose of reflection, rest and rejuvenation, yet nevertheless, most houses of worship are technically open to the public as well.
Look at Midtown Manhattan. What what it be without the stirring Gothic beauty of Saint Patrick's Cathedral?
We are losing something very precious when our houses of worship close. In a very real sense, we are losing ourselves, and an aspect of our humanity, and something which makes life worth living. What elevates humanity more, a centuries old house of worship filled with Old World craftsmanship, or another glass residential tower?
Beauty matters. Public parks and gleaming towers of glass are often beautiful, but many houses of worship are as well, and often have a degree of beauty exponentially greater than secular steel and glass towers for they proclaim that there is more to life than just making money and the rat race. And that in and of itself, is beautiful beyond words.
38
@Raphael - You are defending a design from the 1300s when people didn't worry about the environment. The religious authorities didn't care that they were building churches on the backs of their impoverished congregants. An old church is a burden to the neighborhood because it is tax-exempt. Not everyone sees it as beautiful. Don't confuse your worship of God with worship of buildings.
5
@S.L.: You are certainly not the arbiter of beauty in a situation like this. Don't confuse a building that is part of the fabric of a neighborhood with "worship of buildings"!
I suppose you equally think people should work in old office buildings only, since they don't really need any kind of pleasant or attractive space?? And museums, wow, what a waste of space for all that stuff that some people don't think is "beautiful."
5
@Raphael I doubt we're looking at the demise of St. Patrick's.
3
I work full time on church redevelopment in a rapidly shrinking denomination. There's no question in my mind at all that our denomination should jettison a sizeable percentage of its properties and reimagine its old mission (which has not changed at all) in a new world (which has changed tremendously). Billions of dollars are tied up in what are essentially outdated tools - ridiculously expensive buggy whips - and should be freed as soon as possible. But they should only be used when mission clarity is regained and stubbornly held.
The Church's main purpose is to raise up and nurture people who want to help people meet, get to know and fall in love with Jesus. Those imperfect people then go on to do amazing things in the world (and are sustained and encouraged to keep doing them). If we, as Stephen Covey taught, "keep the main thing the main thing," the infusion of money from real estate savings will be a blessing to the neighborhoods and the lives of real people. However, If we see it as first and foremost the opportunity for just another building of social service agencies and political action committees, it will disappear like water into sand. The changing of hearts is meant to persist, changing the actions that follow. When those actions are actions of compassion, that's one sign of Jesus' presence and the proper function of the Church. Too rare, for sure. But that's why we have to keep focused and stubbornly try.
25
This trend needs to happen far more often. Church attendance is plummeting while the housing shortage worsens. We have a city of empty churches and a massive housing crisis. Outside of landmarked structures or thriving churches, I would love nothing more than to replace all these sanctuaries with much needed housing.
14
It seems more than a little odd to object to the construction of housing in a city with a severe shortage of housing. It certainly would be better if the new housing were social housing -- government operated with rents tied to incomes, but new housing is new housing.
Moreover, buildings, no matter how lovely, can easily become a liability, rather than an asset, to a congregation. For congregations across the country, buildings consume the bulk of their expenses. Most congregations, in addition, lack the expertise to manage their buildings over the long run. Selling an ornate, overly large building may be the best way to allow the congregation to remain a faith community, rather than a building management firm.
4
We don’t have a shortage of housing; a quarter of luxury units built in the last six years have never sold.
We have a shortage of truly affordable housing, as opposed to the meager number of units built for people earning 60 percent (or more!) of the area’s median income.
41
@jphubba
LOL
There are literally empty buildings sitting all over the city. THere is plenty of housing if you can afford it.
This is tragic and shortsighted.
8
We have enough vacant NYCHA units to house all the homeless, but NYCHA cannot seem to get them renovated.
5
A plan mentioned in this article, to rent out extra space in houses of worship, is brilliant.
The loss of ancient and beautiful buildings will lessen New York's beauty and probably lower tourism.
On the other hand, houses of so-called worship have no use for people. like me, who don't believe in physical gods. Those who do, are steeped in centuries-old delusions.
12
The loss of religious building, particularly churches, has only just begun. Fewer and fewer New Yorkers belong to a church any more. In Historic Districts the church buildings will be converted to condos but buildings without landmark protection will just be demolished for redevelopment of the site. Dozens of churches have been demolished over the past ten years and the trend is not about to slow down.
8
@Asher B
As a sign of the decreasing interest in religion, it cannot happen fast enough!
I walk by so many empty churches, even ones that have robust sunday services. Many churches don't even want people sitting on their steps.
Church/Mosque/Shul buildings should be used for the community good: meeting places, shelters, housing for the poor. They are tax free and I believe owe the public some good will and service.
I think there would be more people going to these places if they themselves were more welcoming, responsible, less selfish and more generous and accepting.
I hate to see a beautiful building go, but when the church itself is no longer responsive to the community, close up. They take the tax free money and run, but maybe that's for the best.
14
@ls I think this is an unfair assessment. Most churches, in my experience working within them for 25+ years, do their best to help the community around them. It is by and large the religious folks who are staffing the homeless shelters and food pantries, lobbying to allow refugee resettlement and helping set them up in homes, jobs, and acclimation once here. We open our doors to every kind of support group and every kind of person. We have undocumented families living in our church basements as sanctuary churches. The clergy take calls at any hour of the day or night from people in crisis who got our number from the answering machine and need gas or food or a place to sleep. We show up at the Memorial Day programs to say a few words, visit the jails and the hospitals and the nursing homes when police or chaplains call us, and bury people we've never met because the funeral home called and someone hopes to have a religious service. Come hang around with me or any other clergyperson for a week; you will see overworked, underpaid people doing their best inside and outside the church building to be responsive to people's needs. Furthermore, religious institutions tax-exempt status is based off of the idea that the government will not give preference to one group over another, not based on our community service grade.
8
@ls: Then you know nothing of what churches, mosques and synagogues actually DO every single day in their communities! I have a problem with people who have no religious beliefs and who don't ever step foot into a church start ragging on how churches aren't "welcoming" or when they are utterly ignorant of the "community good" that churches DO MEET - providing meeting rooms, soup kitchens, food pantries, shelters, and pro-bono social work and legal advice - and that's just for starters.
If you want to see action, then why don't you step inside, introduce yourself, and VOLUNTEER your time & energy to help your community? You will soon find out how much religious organizations contribute to sustaining the people of this city!
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There is SO MUCH that could be done with a church building. I keep telling my clergy colleagues to create co-working spaces, entrepreneurial labs, art studios, fitness centers, elder care clubs...charge for memberships, nothing wrong with that! Mixed income housing above community space is just as good. Real estate is a tremendous gift and selling to a developer who has no sense or care for what makes for healthy communities is a tragic relinquishment of our collective responsibility. I know it’s hard to get people to imagine what could be but the alternative is luxury high end condos that do not serve, consider, or care about those whose churches are called to be a refuge for. I wish our congregations, presbyteries, conferences, and synod leadership had a willingness to move from a scarcity mindset to something more abundant; to look beyond what is and think creatively about what could be. Yes, there is cost and yes, it’s overwhelming. So then work with developers who have strategic knowledge to develop the space in a way that generates income without sacrificing mission — and pay them for their services. I believe this is possible — difficult and unfamiliar— but possible. Otherwise, congregations are at risk of squandering a great inheritance that could serve as a powerful countervoice for capitalistic practices and frameworks that degrade and erode one of the few spaces designed to pull people together.
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@Emily: Wait, so if the local gym goes out of business, we can claim that underused space for religious services, eh? Nothing wrong with that, according to you!
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It is important for the church, synagogue, mosque, other religious, & secular places of assembly facing sale or change of purpose of its physical structures to make a comprehensive photographic record of the structures. The NYS Council for the Arts and other arts funding organizations need to consider these structures as works of art.
The stained glass in most of these buildings is as magnificent as in many of the religious & secular buildings in Europe & elsewhere.
Little known by metro New York City (& NYS) residents, art historians, & scholars are the magnificent churches & a few synagogues in upper New York State. Albion, Batavia, Dansville, Olean, and other villages as well as the cities of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Schenectady, Binghamton, & Albany were industrialists contributed to their religious institutions to make the structures magnificent.
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@Harvey Botzman: How and when will churches do that? In their non-existent spare time and with their non-existent extra money??
Yes, the stained glass is gorgeous, and most of it goes into storage in some dusty warehouse, almost certainly never to be seen again.
In future, tourists will have no churches to visit in NYC. We can approximate communist/atheist countries that way. Yet even Russia has the sense to maintain some of its magnificent old churches.
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If the church remains the owner of the property after its re-development. Is the property still exempt of real estate property taxes and taxes on the income it produces ?
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Exempt. See recent article about Trinity Church Wall Street and their gleaming, brass-and-glass, tax-exempt commercial property. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s exempt from city services.
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Where I live, it would no longer be tax exempt.
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Seems like a good opportunity for building low-income housing, for which the City has such strong demand. As sad as it might be to lose some beautiful old churches, it seems inevitable based on demographics. Might as well make the best of a tough situation.
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Religious buildings, all of which use public services free of charge, should at least contribute the cost of these services, thus reducing the tax burden of other businesses and residents. If selling these buildings adds to the tax base, then it's a positive for communities.
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An alternate example is Trinity Church, which is both a house of worship and a tax-exempt developer, which has roughly $6 billion in property holdings.
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@Francine
It helps that it's held that land since the early 19th century when Manhattan real estate was, to not put too fine a point on it, much cheaper than it is now. They give way more back to the community than their neighbors in finance do, so I say let them keep their tax exempt status.
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@T. Warren They have held the land much longer than that. Trinity celebrated its 300th anniversary a few years back.
Sell the building and lot and air rights on the condition that the new development includes an interior space for a post-millennial congregation, to be used, rent-free, as long as the congregation stays together. Win-win. Also a chance to save rethink how interior objects--sculptures, windows, altars, and so on--might migrate to a new context, and keep with them their sense of physical history. Religion is not just about belief--it's also about touch.
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@Muddlerminnow: Where will the pre-millennials go to worship? Will there be an age-check at the door to keep out older people?
Church congregations, by definition, encompass ALL people of ALL ages.
BTW, who will comprise the congregation when the "post-millennials" grow OLD themselves?
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Houses of worship can have an important role within their communities as social gathering places. But when the cease to fulfill that role due to changing demographics etc. then the best way they can serve their community is by making room for living spaces, ideally with a sizable affordable component. Blaming administrators or real estate developers in this context is just childish.
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Religions have acquired these properties, in large part, through not being taxed. In essence, the state owns a substantial portion of these properties. When they are transferred from the services they offered and for which they received tax exemption, a commensurate portion of their value should go back into the community. The sale of every property should have factored into it the accumulated tax exemption advantages from conception. Or, the properties should be used solely for lower income housing. The value of these properties should be transferred within their original intent. If that intent was to produce million dollar condos then the taxes should be paid dating back to the date of the original purchase.
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@Issac Basonkavich Yours is the wisest comment I've seen so far on this blog. As a Christian, I think most houses of worship--Christian or not-- would want their real estate developed in a manner consist with their original purpose. Low-income housing/ community centers/ senior centers would fit the bill.
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Tax religious real estate holdings already.
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@Change Happens I think that religious real estate holdings should be required to fulfill certain expectation that add value to their local community in order to qualify for tax exempt status. The truth is that many church buildings allow space for a whole host of activities – "religious" and not – that are good for communities: AA, Scouts, after school programming, pre-school, childcare, meals and community space for the elderly, homeless, and other vulnerable populations. The space should *do* something for its community in exchange for tax exempt status.
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@Emily
"The truth is that many church buildings allow space for a whole host of activities – "religious" and not – ..."
You are right. Churches helped elect Trump, enable pedophelia, homophobia, transphobia, bigotry, etc. For some strange reason, I don't want my taxpayer money going from my pocket
to the pocket of a pedophile. Apparently some people have a different idea.
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@Change Happens - if the rental/usage fee is in line with the mission (AA, NA, pre-school, meals programs, ESL classes, parish hall after wedding or baptism, luncheon after a funeral) that is fine. If you don't agree, then we should start taxing colleges as well (MIT and Harvard in Cambridge).
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Watch well thy door, for ye know not when the real estate developer cometh.
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Before selling their property churches need finally to admit that their beliefs are fraudulent and that they have for centuries misled their people.
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@n1789 I frankly do not see how such a inflammatory remark pertains to the subject of this article, but I feel that you are being quite unfair to a religion, an institution, which, for its many shortcomings, has long been a driving force for good and a fundamental agency of modern civilization. As a minister myself, I know the comfort and support Christianity can provide—regardless of your personal beliefs apropos of the divine, I should hope that you might possess the equanimity to consider that the answer may not be quite so easily dismissive.
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@n1789: Before selling his condos, Donald Trump needs to publicly admit that he has defrauded many contractors and for his entire adult life he has misled people about his income, source of wealth, and intentions. He needs to admit he's a liar, otherwise we should confiscate every building he's associated with ... right?
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@James
I'm sorry, but are you actually supporting the position that "...it has long been a driving force for a good and fundamental agency of modern civilization"?
Religion is the antithesis of progress and modernity.
Shall I start the list?
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NYC realtors have been destroying the social and economic fabric of the city’s neighborhoods by buying properties and forcing long-time residents to move as rents are prohibitively raised forcing people to move. That houses of worship then experience a dwindling congregation logically follows.
Portable real estate developers couldn’t care less, once they get their money, they proceed to offshore it. In the mean time the glue that holds communities together has been destroyed.
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@Ted No one is forcing anyone to move.
"Houses of worship" have declining congregations because fewer and fewer people believe in basing their lives on mythological fiction.
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We can begin by remembering that TDRs were developed to protect landmarked buildings and avoid a takings claim wha building was designated. They have now become cash on demand for big donors to the DeBlasio Administration. Rezoning that magically gifts not just churches but other owners with TDRS to sell have been rammed through by DeBlasio resulting in lost small businesses and lost affordable housing units that aren’t coming back.
The Catholic Church has done very well as a result of the midtown zoning Change that gave it $300 million in TDRS. TDRs are leading to the destruction of mega office buildings so that megalomaniac CEOs can have even taller buildings...size matters! No thought is given to the water peoples the street or the impact on the sewers, dränge or safety of firefighters or residents. Who cares big donors need to be serviced.
When churches hook up with developers they often run interference for them as they destroy a neighborhoods and cast shadows on apartments and parks. Once churches (of ay sect) become part of a developers team they should be required to pay back all the taxes they have avoided over the years with interest.
The protestations of beneficiaries coming from developers is both offensive and perfidious.
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@Justice Holmes, empty churches are destroying neighborhoods. Desperately needed new housing saves neighborhoods. It would be fantastic if the Catholic church started monetizing its mostly empty assets throughout the city. They're sitting on a goldmine, and the city needs the housing. Same goes for Protestant churches, and many synagogues. Religious participation is plummeting. 90% of these facilities won't be needed in a generation.
And Midtown is the largest, densest business district on earth. Extreme density is entirely appropriate. There's no better place on the planet for huge supertalls.
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@Osito: You left out synagogues...
PS: How many houses of worship are within Hudson Yards? Asking for a friend.
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Given all the present and future construction taking place in Flushing, I was a bit amused by the comment that the developer got the "last spot in Flushing." The demolished LDS chapel was previously a Christian Science Church. They sold the property and moved to a smaller building on Bayside Ave. off Parsons. A new neighbor for them included a massive wooden Buddhist temple that was elaborately carved in South Korea in ancient style and brought here. It is an astonishing sight in an otherwise residential street.
More akin to the subject of this article is the Macedonia African Methodist Church in Flushing that was recently demolished for a new building. This adjoins a large apartment building sponsored by the church in a former municipal parking lot that displaced a Black neighborhood offensively known as "Crow Hill" in the 19th century.
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Selling air rights might be a solution for some congregations in NYC and a few other cities.
Other times, it might be possible to save the facade and historic windows, maybe also key architectural elements of a noteworthy sanctuary, and embed them into a new, more efficient building.
If overhead of a building becomes too expensive, it makes it less likely that a congregation will continue to be able to afford full time clergy. Losing pastoral care is a much larger problem for the congregants.
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Young adults (20’s/30’s) are leading the way on developing new forms of worship and community building.
It is frustrating that boomers are clinging on to old forms of worship, old forms of architecture, old ways of sustainable funding for faith groups.
Many Christians recognize that in general, our church buildings are too old, too large and too expensive to go on much longer. But those same folks are trapped by limited thinking about those properties. All they can think to do is sell to developers.
Let the new generation lead!
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@Cousy - The "new generation" isn't buying the Invisible Sky Daddy stuff the professional Religionists have been peddling for millenia. Plummeting participation by young peeps is the primary reason churches sit empty.
Religion causes misery, death and destruction. Time for it to finally kill itself off. Let the new generation lead!
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@Cousy The "new generation" has destroyed the "old" and with it, tradition, yes, and most importantly, spirituality. Services today have become bland message-less holy-roller jamborees with espresso machines and zumba classes and Venmo "plates" to be electronically passed and all with barely a whiff of the presence and reverence for God. Hey kids: church should not be a profit center or entertainment complex.
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@Cousy: From what I can see, young adults either have no religious beliefs or else they want church to be like a night club: entertainment with great music and special effects. They want the equivalent of fast-food religion. No theology, no dogma, and certainly no solemnity.
I can't IMAGINE why you would think it's "frustrating" that boomers (as you claim) are 'clinging on to old forms of worship" - really, what does it matter to you at all?
"Let the new generation lead" - why and where? They don't know where they're going! They'll only go where they can have access to social media as they "worship."
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"Give all that you have to the poor and follow me".
I don't think the poor are getting much out of these deals.
But then the 1% has a lot more to gain.
I'm an atheist and care nothing about the buildings, but it was thousands of relatively middle class and poor that paid for these churches in the first place.
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@USMC1954
My 95 year old aunt remembers just how much the working class Italians did to construct all the churches and schools in their NJ communities when she was a girl. Now the church closes the schools and parish buildings, renting them out to overburdened public schools for a handsome profit, all the while retaining their tax-free status. They learned from Wall St - socialized losses, privatized gain.
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You can't saddle older, shrinking congregations with outdated, poorly maintained buildings. What is a church, a building or a congregation of believers? It seems building affordable housing is a good middle road. Even one bedrooms that start at $598k could be considered affordable in Manhattan. Sadly.
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Having spent a term sitting on a church board I witnessed a small congregation struggle to maintain a very old building. It drained the budget and left nothing in the event of an emergency. A few years after my tenure the building was sold and the congregation moved into rental space. The old building became a private residence. That private residence was then out of the hands of a non profit organization and paying property tax to the municipality. A win for all. That’s not to say this should happen all around and the architectural richness that many churches add to the townscape should be throw to to the wayside, but there is some advantage to thinning down the multiple church buildings in many towns and cities.
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It would be nice if our historic old churches, so lovely to walk past, could be transformed for other uses, and apartments built above them if possible, set back to allow for the facade to be seen in full.
They add a lot to our streetscapes.
Not so newer religious edifices and community centers -- pretty bland, the best of them. And their tax-free status should really be limited to the sanctuaries themselves. Too much other "religious" real estate gets a free ride.
As to that -- Scientology is no religion at all but the brainchild of L. Ron Hubbard, a hack sci-fi writer whose ads were ubiquitous in 1970s New York.
Scientology is consecrated to the cult of money-making.
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@B. In Chicago, St Paul's in Wicker Park's historic district, had a total of 6 congregants at the time they sold to developers who are turning the structure to apts/condos.
In Logan Square, Grace Lutheran has a handful of congregants and can't support repairs to their building. One plan is to keep the church proper and condo the school.
Churches were often the fulcrum of neighborhoods and although retrofitted as housing takes that away it's also possible to find other community based uses.
Across from Grace Lutheran, a former 110 year old Evangelical church has a new life as a circus acrobatic school.
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