I cannot believe we are seriously discussing having a civil war over this walking piece of garbage.
And, Charles Murray is laughable. The author of the controversial book The Bell Curve - where he implicitly argued that race influences intelligence, says that Trump is a "malignant narcissist...with no evidence of redeeming traits...", yet would possibly vote, again, for Trump because he likes what has happened during these years.
So, Murray will overlook all the criminality, and all the immoral and unethical behavior because... judges and borders. The racist will vote for the racist. Shocking.
80
The economy is the elephant in this room; the majority of trump’s supporters (except for the white nationalists and rabid evangelical fanatics) will desert him like rats from a sinking ship if it sours (likely after 2020). He is an extreme narcissist who fears presiding over an economic decline, let alone a crisis. He will be the first to leap off the ship to preserve his delusion.
19
I’m a serious student of history, and it's frightening to me to see parallels with Nazi Germany.
One reason there was no action taken in removing Hitler was the belief that the democratic process would deal with him.
Then Kristalnacht.
He declared a state of emergency and the rest is - as they say - history.
The only people I know who are frightened today were the ones who lived through this.
Go ahead and laugh. I've been saying this since he got where he is - no one would've thought an article would discuss this.
BTW; I'm only in my 30's, unlike millennials, I understand; 'those who forget the past are commented to repeat it'G. Santayana
41
I worry that trump can mobilize his ICE troops, bikers for trump, police and those enlisted people who wear trump maga patches on their uniforms. His army.
I just read a book about Germany from the 20's through the rise of the Nazis. The signs for us were written then. We should be very afraid.
28
30 some tyears ago I heard a guy ranting about "...them...." "....coming for our guns and our Bibles...".
This paranoia goes way, wat back among white Evangelicals
and militia types.
I have a lot of faith and confidence in the Fidelity of the Armed Services.
12
Trump did a flawless take on Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver today, when he was asked by a reporter what he wanted from the Ukrainian president concerning Joe Biden.
"You talkin' to me?"
I wonder if that's what he'll say when they come to drag him out of the Oval Office.
11
If he won't leave voluntarily, the men in the white coats can always toss a net over him and drag him out, kicking and screaming if need be.
9
I think it's bizarre and irresponsible to even consider this possibility in a newspaper like the NY Times. Talk about it around your water cooler if you'd like, but doing this lends an air credibility to the possibility.
7
From what I've heard, Fox news does not speak with one voice.
2
Mr. Edsall stands out among his peers at the Times because he asks these loaded questions.
4
What? Are you serious? Let's be rational! Who is being paranoid now?
7
Rats return to the sewers. Snakes return to their holes and hiding places.
5
As despicable as Trump may be personally it is the policies he promotes that are the most destructive. Exploding the debt with unfunded tax cuts for the very rich, promiscuous deregulation, a trade war and ignorance of the environmental perils we face. He is profoundly ignorant.
18
Trump's behavior while as scary as it goes, is nothing surprising. What is surprising is the fact that majority of Americans were so ignorant or even illiterate that they did not bother to read the widely available stories and books about him before the election. The past and future (scary) shenanigans of this President are not just his fault, but ours - at least of those who were ignorant of what he presented and promised to do. As said before majority of Americans vote on the basis of their feeling whether the candidate is a guy with whom they would like to go to have a beer or not. Hitler described what he would do in considerable details in Mein Kampf but majority of Germans did not believe it. History has a tendency to repeat itself.
12
Look at that pathetic picture of boys with guns pretending to be men. I’m not afraid because at heart, these die-hard NRA apologists are cowards who wave their guns to mask their cowardice. Just look at prime example number one: our president, who talks big but pretends to have bone spurs to get out of fighting.
10
If he tried to stay, MILLIONS of us will line up outside the WH to go in and drag him out.
14
I seriously would not use the word "loaded" when you're talking about this evil, cowardly thug from now on.
2
A Coup...
A Civil War...
An arrest & execution of member of Congress, who conducts investigation of presidential corruption, or in his warp mind "presidential harassment..."
Abusing his power to investigate his political opponent, same way he still does with Hillary...
Telling border patrol to shoot immigrants...
It's horrifying to observe the decay of the evil brain cells.
They will have to immediately disconnect him from any type of communications, all his digital toys, send the best trained army brigade and forcefully remove him from office...
Since he is such admirer of Putin's let him experience Russian method 1st hand.
He has to be convicted of high crimes and misdemeanors and serve his prison term, if we still want to remain a Democratic Republic!
Just the fact, that we have to hear all this heretical mumbo-jumbo from derange WH character puts the whole country at risk...
He is clear and present danger!!!
9
Charles Murray would happily vote for trump because they are cut from the same swastika. Murray is a well known racist and pseudo-social scientist. Of course he would vote for Trump. How could he possibly prevent himself from voting for concentration camps for refugees and social Darwinist cuts in the safety net?
9
I am sorry, but this piece is just foolish.
10
A point in our favor is that, unlike the Wermacht in 1933, where soldiers swore an oath of personal loyalty to Hitler, in the U.S. soldiers swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, not the President.
15
The minority of white trogs that are ignorant enough to become violent do not have the energy to step away from their barca loungers -put away their booze and drugs and cheeroz and energize to do something -anything.
And the first sight of authorities would send them running anyway.
These are lazy minded cowards who would never jeapordize their slothful comforts.
3
I don't care if they have to drag him out of the Oval Office in handcuffs and ankle bracelets and duct tape his mouth.
8
The NRA goon photo says it all. Given enough time, heart disease, diabetes and dementia will mitigate this threat.
8
Charles Murray, the racist, supports a racist president? Huh.
4
It won’t matter. He’s old. He’s fat. He eats poorly. He doesn’t exercise. God will weed him out sooner rather than later.
6
A typical Trump supporter is an old white guy with a pot belly who spends his evenings in front of the tube. Hard to imagine a battalion of those fellows taking to the streets on behalf of their leader.
5
Trump is either a 3D chess playing James Bond level super villain, or a bumbling fool. It is important to pick one and be consistent with your arguments and predictions.
If I were Putin, I would hack into a few swing state election systems with the *sole* intent of getting caught. Then, who ever looses, that side will scream that the election is fraudulent. Then Putin uses his now well honed skills at manipulating social media while knowing that the morally bankrupt talking heads on Fox News will gladly help him fans the flames. All while not altering a single vote. This is what we should be afraid of, not Trump's "base".
As far as this so called "base" of Trump's... Lets just assume they do rise up. What exactly are they going to do? Will Jeb and Cletus grab their guns, drive their pickup to the nearest big city and... what? It's around 30% of the population, scattered primarily in rural areas, mostly 60+ year old "get off my lawn" bitter old men and mouthy cowards who can only appear tough on Facebook and Twitter posts.
The focus should be on Putin and the ignorance, obfuscation, and lies that are promoted primarily by Facebook and Fox News.
8
Trump will stroke out soon enough.
He can't handle this stress.
4
I find it absolutely amazing that a majority of Republicans believe that whites would be deliberately underrepresented were they a minority. Interesting, because that's exactly what's already happening to minorities now, so what those Republicans are really saying is that they've abused and mistreated others because they weren't in power and are now afraid their victims won't be magnanimous once in power.
Here's a little clue, Republicans. I've noticed in life that if you treat others fairly, they will too. Don't expect to have acted like jerks for decades, and those you abused won't hold a grudge.
10
This is scary. Trump is scary.
I have no doubt Trump will, when he feels it is the best option, pull the pin on the war grenade in order to boost his standing as Commander-in-Chief. For someone like Trump it's a no-brainer. Automatic approval increase; what's to lose?
Trump always and only considers one thing: himself. He will do whatever he believes is to his advantage.
I guess many of these republican boot-lickers don't care how history treats them, they certainly have no respect for the constitution or what's best for the country. They really are just mini Trumps. Hollow vessels happy to be filled with Trump's righteous anger.
Truly sickening.
5
The odd thing that strikes me is that certain whites have the idea that minorities want to "take over." Most people are just going about their daily lives. I don't know any minority individuals who are interested in taking over. This is a bizarre paranoid view of a problem or imminent threat that really does not exist. Demographics will be demographics. They don't predict a race war in the US. Typically shooting themselves in the foot these anti abortion fanatics have not considered that many more minority children will be born thanks to their refusal to allow women to control over their own bodies. White extremists are not waiting in line to adopt African American or Latino babies. Oh, I forgot. Most people are not rational.
7
Patriots and the Defenders of the Constitution will just blockade Pennsylvania Avenue and starve him out.
4
Murray is terrifying. And unbelievably selfish.
4
Need something else to worry about? Trump will continue his rallies and tweeting until the day he dies, unless he’s in jail.
6
and if trump serves a full two terms and then refuses to leave?
2
Answer to your question: YES!
1
Not very long ago, this was an
Idea of the “loony left.” Now we’re discussing it in the mainstream press, in a paper that constantly counsels “Moderation.” Scary.
4
This passage from James Baldwin in "No Name in the Street" comes to mind:
"People pay for what they do, and, still more, for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it very simply: by the lives they live. The crucial thing, here, is that the sum of these individual abdications menaces life all over the world. For, in the generality, as social and moral and political and sexual entities, white Americans are probably the sickest and certainly the most dangerous people, of any color, to be found in the world today."
3
Trump is just one man and an old man at best. He is on his way out even if he were to attempt to do a coup or start a civil war, he is likely to soon or get too old to be a dictator/govern. He is already showing signs that he is not all together upstairs In addition, there is a saying that might apply to him if he starts a civil war, "Who lives by the sword will die by the sword" Wrongs right themselves. If you don't believe, read history. Hitler and Mussolini did not last.
3
How can you write this article and not include Michael Cohen, Trump's long time lawyer?
But now, Mr. Cohen said, he fears that if Mr. Trump loses re-election next year, “there will never be a peaceful transition of power.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/michael-cohen-trump.html
6
White people are so worried about the growing proportion of minorities in the US because use collectively, whites have treated racial minorities so badly, especially African Americans. For all of American history, minorities have been an oppressed class of people that have been lynched, imprisoned, vilified, neglected, mocked, and scapegoated. To a great extent, the policies of the white ruling class have resulted in minorities having less opportunity and a lower standard of living. Perhaps it is reasonable for whites to be fearful for what is coming. They have long been the abusers and they fear their turn may be coming.
3
How will it end? Naked screaming from the White House balcony, madly waving his twitter phone? The Secret Service frantically prying the nuclear button from his tiny little hands? No matter what, it will be petty, vindictive, embarrassing, and horrible - all at once. Bring your popcorn and hope we survive.
8
The true impact would only happen if Republican male athletes turned against Trump. The Bradeys, Justin Roses, and yes, Tiger Woods of the words. Which they never well. #weak
4
Magic 8-Ball says, "You may rely on it."
3
Anyone who was half awake when Trump ran and essentially stole the 2016 election knew that this pathetic excuse for a human was going to be a danger to the country and world.
The people that continue to enable this corrupt fool need to be held accountable. Call out your friends, family, and colleagues if they still support him. These people lie to themselves every day in order to perpetuate the great Lie that is Trump.
8
Steve Bannon , no longer Trumps pal ,opined that Trumps exit would be messy at best.
Lose an election . It was rigged and crooked.
Impeached. It's a left wing conspiracy to remove the people's favourite.
Collusion. It's not a crime.True but dirty commie un American rats say that doesn't mean no crime was committed.
Trumps popularity puzzles most ,but not all , Brits.
Right wing nationalists yearn for a "Let's make Britain great again " or a "UK first" agenda . Brexit comes close but no cigar.
3
I firmly believe Trump is on serious speed drugs.
4
Trump laughed about getting away with all the things he did before he became president, and now he's laughing at you, because you're defending all the crimes he's committing as president. He is the most corrupt person ever to breathe American air. The fact that you see this colossal sociopath as nothing but a victim is beyond belief. It's one of the great mysteries in America today.
5
"So there you have it: I despise the man, worry that he will make terrible foreign policy blunders, but from my perspective policies under Trump are vastly superior to the policies that would be pursued by the leading Democratic candidates. It’s a Hobson’s choice." It is only a Hobson's choice to someone who allows their bigotry to "trump" any concern for the well-being of the country or world. Trump should be unacceptable to anyone who pretends to belief in the core principles of the US. His vile inadequacy transcends party, his transgressions present a clear moral test for each of us. Murray fails the test.
6
Trump's presidency has an actual expiration date and time. At that point a.new president is sworn in. The new president controls the military and all federal law enforcement agencies. Trump will be summarily evicted from the White House. End of story about Trump not leaving.
3
I am more scared about what Trump will do between election day and January 20th. He will still be the commander in chief with access to the nuclear arsenal. I predict (and hope I am wrong) that he will use Twitter and other sources to claim the election was rigged and there was massive fraud and he will call for violence.
He will also falsely claim that millions of illegals voted against him. I wouldn't be surprised if there is voter fraud, though fraud on the side of the Republicans like we've seen in some recent elections. They've already demonstrated through gerrymandering and voter suppression that the ends justifies the means. I also won't be at all surprised if there is more Russian interference since he's basically given them a green light to interfere.
I don't think he'd even resign so Pence could pardon him, iin his warped mind he has done nothing wrong, he's a king and can do whatever he wants.
After the fact, there will be endless investigations and arrests for abuse of power, obstruction of justice, destroying of evidence, conspiracy with foreign governments and many more crimes.
I pray when all is said and done that the Republican party is relegated to the ash heap and a new conservative party arises, one that is more moderate that believes in the rule of law, truth and science like Republicans of old. Reading the old Republican platform looks like it was written by a democrat.
I hope I am wrong in this.
2
One thing that stands out to me in this article is how completely our pundits and commenters fail to understand our military.
The all volunteer military has divorced our people from our military. There is a lack of understanding, to the point of incomprehension.
There is no slightest chance you could find even one General, Admiral, Colonel, or Captain who would overthrow the Constitution in order to keep anyone in the White House, much less Donald Trump. It is an absurd idea, reflecting no knowledge at all of how our military people think.
9
Time has slowed down for the Trump presidency.
Seems like it will never end,
But you could view that as a gift of longer life~!
3
I like many people have been and remain concerned about the length of Trump's stay in the WH and the circumstances that will show him the door but the recent turn of events have opened up a crack, it feels like to me, with Trump pushing it wider everyday with his mouth, so other scenarios suddenly seem possible.
There's really no predicting but in my opinion his hold on the White House is suddenly tentative, maybe slipping and looking desperate, subject to change at any rate, and that's not the way it looked a couple of weeks ago.
Thank you, Thomas Edsall, once again the NYTimes best political analyst.
As for the skeptics, please consider it an assignment to read Yahoo News comment sections. You should be aware of the vicious right-wing rhetoric out there, the lies, hate, incendiary statements, veiled and not-so-veiled threats against liberals, and the astonishing number of "likes" they receive. Just last night I flagged 3 comments for "inciting violence." One included an election map of the US and pointed out that all blue areas are surrounded by red.
I live outside a blue city in a red state. As a "purple" suburb, my town is in an interface between. Red state residents may be Trump voters, but they are not a pack of cold-blooded killers. Every one I've ever met in the backcountry has been very kind, warm and friendly. However, given automatic weapons, a lot of deaths could be caused by just a few extremists. We've been warned, and should take threats seriously.
6
Charles Murray of a sub-standard "Think Tank," writes, "a malignant narcissist, which includes as symptoms some of the most unattractive qualities that human beings can have. He also exhibits textbook traits of mental decline that have worsened measurably over the last three years. I find in him no evidence of redeeming traits — no instance of loyalty to a friend in trouble or of unconditional generosity. I despise him and think he is unfit to be president."
And yet he would vote for Trump? the mind boggles. This shows how degenerate the conservative thinkers have become. getting rid of Trump is the least of the problem when we still have these poisonous characters running loose in Washington.
5
It is a Georgia Democrat, not a Republican, making a career out of refusing to accept an election outcome. Hilary is nearly as bad.
3
No. He will stay forever.
Unless stopped.
1
Yes, he will leave the White House. There will be lots of fury, then blaming of others, then self-pity, maybe some charm. He will hit hard, and it will hurt. Then, suddenly, he will lose interest. A deal will have been struck, backhanded, there will be no resolution, no satisfaction, no justice. But he will be gone.
The rich whites have a long history of convincing the poor whites that the reason they are poor is the "other". Be it Catholics, Blacks, Asians, Italians, Hispanics, whatever. That way, the poor whites don't realize that the reason they are poor is that they were robbed by the rich whites. And the poor whites will keep falling for it because it is the easy and comforting explanation.
Given they way that Trump keeps invoking the word "coup", it is reasonable to assume that he either believes it, or believes that a coup to protect himself is justified. So, he may actually tweet to have his second amendment friends defend him. It will not take very many to create a bloody mess.
This fear existed under Nixon to the extent that the Joint Chiefs issued an order that only orders that come through the chain of command should be followed. I have no doubt that the military will side with the constitution and not trump. Anything else is mutiny, which is a capital offense under military law.
3
If he's voted out or removed by an act of Congress he'll leave, one way or another. It may not be pretty, but I don't care. What I care about is the damage to the republic and the reaction of the mob. He's just a fraud and a bully, nothing to be afraid of.
1
US Army is a very professionnal organisation. They will not support a coup from Trump. If they are divided, Matis will step in and rally them to the Constitution.
1
Trump is an illegitimate president who won in 2016 with the premeditated help of Putin. Either through impeachment or the loss of the 2020 election Trump might not leave the office. Before this even happens, we need a military coup by some of the true American patriots in our Armed Services who can oust the Trump administration and call for new elections. We need to reverse the stain of the Trump/Putin rigged election of 2016. Democrat House and Senate members need to start meeting in secret with Joint Chiefs of Staff members and plan to restore democracy.
Translated: Your president trump will probably need to be escorted out of your White House by armed, decent, people. And restrained in a straight-jacket. Him, Pence, McConnell and his other defenders in your White House.
1
Stop giving don the con ideas. Really. The man isn't smart enough to think his way out of a cardboard box. Sure, he won't want to leave when the time comes. But all he is capable of doing is rage-tweeting - bad in and of itself, but not likely to cause widespread upheaval. Articles like this, by suggesting the ways he might fight leaving office, just give him a road map.
4
I have to say, of all the democratic candidates, I find that Andrew Yang has the most powerful chance against trump. many Americans voted for trump due to his economic claims (that didnt really help) but Yang is here with some actual logic and reasoning behind his economic claim. the democratic candidates are all pretty bad in my opinion. they rant about trump being the problem while not fully realizing why and how he became president. yang knows this clearly. he is by far the most likeable candidate, and by far the most logical.
3
It's a challenging question, but I will never vote for Biden at this point. Edwards is my vote
3
One of the “exceptional” things about America is its long tradition of peaceful transition of power between leaders that disagree with each other. It depends on our sense that norms that protect us all are above any leader; it’s the rule of law.
For all the “law and order” rhetoric from our president, the reason scholars doubt our next transition is this president’s plain belief in his “wise rule” over any respect for our laws and norms.
He never placed faith in our elections, only promising to approve if he won. Now that he’s committed crimes, he’s even less willing to accept a result that places his basic liberty in jeopardy.
Other countries also struggle with this conflict, like Hungary, Russia, the Philippines, Brazil, North Korea, the U.K., China, and even Japan. Should citizens defend their leader when he breaks the law?
A cynic could say the democracies on that list are as autocratic as the others, but there are differences. In Japan, officials that waived rules to favor Abe supporting businesses, destroyed all documentary evidence to avoid imperiling themselves and their PM. He’s still PM, but there’s no debate he will leave office if the country selects a different leader. Democracies debate which laws are violable (impeachment); autocracies don’t tolerate public debate.
Peaceful transition is fundamental. All of these countries still demand it, but in autocracies, leaders block or kill opponents. We Americans have a lot to lose if Trump can break both rules.
3
The question left to answer focuses on what remains of the GOP even with Trump out of office by whatever means. First, assumptions about his supporters ignores one critical fact. Those folks rejected the failed promises of traditional Republicans. A first class depression with average Joe losing his job, healthcare, house, car and dignity. Two optional wars costing trillions fought by average Joe's kids. The net result a black president thrust on people rendered wary of a changing America. No implied racism more cultural unease.
With nothing to lose these voters nominated Trump repudiating the deep bench of candidates dispatching all with ease. Elected him and enjoy the finger in the eye of critics. Now the issue with Trump gone what then? The GOP road to redemption requires rejecting Trumpism and resurrecting the party of Lincoln. His flock will not be amused, or support a return of the party to normative behaviour or big tent politics.
No GOP leadership none on the near horizon to thread this needle. There is no middle ground solved by a little Trump and dose of Lincoln. The aggrieved need answers and solutions.
1
Just the fact that we are having these types of discussions, and having them seriously, demonstrates how much our country has lost in the past three years. I am a conservative and a believer in our Constitution. Trump was duly elected by the electoral college system, as called for in the Constitution. I know that irks the "...he lost the popular vote..." crowd but those are the rules of the game. Also, the rules for impeachment and conviction are set out, as are those for the 2020 election. We need to enjoy free and fair elections and processes and then accept the Constitutionally-mandated results. That is how democracies function and last. This column scares me.
2
@jeff
"This column scares me."
Jeff, your president scares me more.
3
For impeachment to succeed, two thirds of the Senate will need to vote to convict, which cannot happen without 20 Republican Senators, so Trump would be looking at coup supported by at least a minority of his own party. This would make the case for claiming a coup weak and as others have pointed out, it would make Pence president, also hardly a coup, even if Pence had little chance winning the next election or even being the Republican nominee. Also, McConnell has indicated that he would follow the rules and hold a trial. So it seems unlikely that he would support a President who had been subject to a valid impeachment vote. And if he doesn't, who would? He is a true "meal ticket" Trump supporter -- he doesn't appear to like him, but respects that Trump gives him a lot of things he wants, like control of judicial appointments.
It is fairly certain that Trump will try to claim that any election he loses is not legitimate, just as he has done with the popular vote count. I also think he will have little support for that. Trump has supporters, but, unlike the fascists of the 1930's, he does not really have a party. Few Republicans in government like him. He is a meal ticket not a leader for them. So no support there.
A CIA officer is the whistleblower and he just threatened the same CIA officer with hanging. Doubt there is much support in the intelligence community. And military officers from Kelly to Mattis have tried to contain him, not support him.
1
There is fanaticism and deep fear and paranoia coupled with despair. A very dangerous brew as touched on in this article. That explains the unswerving loyalty of Trump's base among middle and working class whites, males particularly.
The world they knew is moving away at light speed. The demographics. The nature of work and the types of jobs. The cultural upheaval, far more consequential in some respects than the 60's. The insidious impact of highly partisan web blogs, radio programming and Murdoch's cable network all giving them an exaggerated sense of victim hood and siege.
Add in just enough provocative voices from academia and the web on the Left pushing their buttons on race, gender, sexuality, religion and sneering in the bargain, and it's human nitroglycerin.
Result: While a coup by the military or armed fanatics is unlikely in case of a close election, it cannot be ruled out. Such is the mindset of fear and loathing, two very powerful emotions.
1
I find it strange that nobody mentioned the potential role of the Supreme Court in a Bush-Gore like close vote in a state like Florida, with hanging chads, Republican lawyers rallying outside the vote counting centers in another Brooks Brothers-like riot, etc. Does anyone think Trump’s and Moscow Mitch’s Supreme Court majority wouldn’t rule in his favor?
Now that could cause a backlash of the type Trump warns about.
3
Edsall's intellectual contacts have lost touch with reality. If Trump is removed from office through impeachment Pence will become president. For an evangelist Christian, what is wrong with that? Further, the data alluded to by Edsall seem to indicate that a portion of Trump's supporters might violently contest Trump's removal if it is through an election that they think was stolen. Fact is Trump's approval rate is in the low forties. If half of them were ready for a violent reaction, that would be 20%. Don't you think that the other 80% of us could contain them? Besides how many of that 20% would be old men unable to take on a well-trained police force? Why are academic experts indulging in such wild-eyed speculation? Where is the demonstration that the entire 55% of the white population that believes itself to be victims of discrimination are going to take up arms against the 2/3 of the entire population who do not believe that?
2
Prof. Walter Dellinger, Duke Law School, was quoted thusly for this article: "If Fox declared that Trump was the 'real winner' all bets would be off. I believe, however, they would report honestly on such an important question."
Has Mr. Dellinger's memory of the election in 2000 seriously faded so fast? Or, has he never read all of the follow-up information revealed, including Sandra Day O'Coonor' admission -- regarding the Supreme Court's "official ruling" about recounts in the Florida 2000 election debacle -- that she just wanted it all to be done with (she also, a year or two before, said she didn't want to retire with a Democratic President in office).
1
There is no mistaking the fact that Trump tries to build fealty among the military and law enforcement. After EVERY disaster - whether a man-made mass shooting or a natural disaster, Trump ALWAYS acknowledges/thanks law enforcement and first responders -- sometimes first, and visits them showing them more compassion than he often does for the victims.
2
Liberals need to really focus on getting Trump out of the White House. According to the U.S. Constitution, removal by impeachment and conviction is every bit as legitimate as removal
by election. Impeachment and conviction is as democratic as general elections.
4
This all bears watching but the most likely scenario bringing us closer to a crisis involves the one or two contested states theory of the 2020 election. Trump will leave office but most assuredly only if and when the SCOTUS tells him to. And if the election is close at all, and Trump has to appearances lost it, he will petition the courts and SCOTUS will once again be cast in the role of deciding the election.
@Art
SCOTUS has never decided an election. In 2000 they prevented Florida courts from overturning an election for Democrats. The election had been held and decided. SCOTUS just supported that.
2
This article is Spot On ! And I will admit I am one of those who are definitely paranoid about this scenario playing out. Trump's behavior points to a person with no regard for America or the Constitution.
Back in 2015, I was laughed at for thinking Trump would take the nomination. Then laughed at when I suggested he would take the election. Since then I have had friends tell me I am working myself up into a frenzy over this person...even my partner feels I am getting wound up over "nothing"
THIS is not politics as usual... I have been alive for almost 70 yrs and I have never seen such blatant disregard for the office , even from Tricky Dickie !
I actually purchased a house in Canada immediately after the election in 2016 and made sure the closing was the day before the Inauguration.... "just in case".
And, I plan on voting early next year and will be up here in BC by November. I also will be making hotel reservations fore my son and his family up in Montreal ( they live in New England) and a reservation on the ferry to Victoria, BC Canada for my daughter and her family ( they live on the Peninsula of WA)
Call me paranoid.... and I am hoping I am wrong here.
5
Here is one way trump could overturn the election. Constitution, Article II Section I.2 "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress..."
This clause is an invitation to overturning a close election in a state where the legislature is Republican but the popular vote is Democratic, such as might occur in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Arizona and a few other states. That would throw the election into the courts. The Supreme Court would likely decide the outcome like happened in Gore vs. Bush.
2
@Ken
The manner directed by the state legislature is the manner they have set in place for the appointed election date. It could be a vote by the state legislature or they could give the power to the governor or the state house kitchen staff. Every state now gives it to the people in a general election.
In Florida in 2000 the state legislature’s prescribed procedures had been followed and produced a certified result:Bush. Democrats were got the Florida judiciary to try to override that and provide a new unequal procedure. The SCOTUS did not decide the outcome. They blocked an extra constitutional attempt by the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the outcome.
The state legislatures can not legislate a new procedure after the Election Day that overturns the procedures they set in place for Election Day. This is paranoid hogwash.
Eventually, sooner rather than later, Trump will leave the White House, but what worried me is that the secrets he knows, he will sell to the highest bidder. I think that's something we can count on.
9
If you doubt Thomas Edsall’s argument take a look at the video the Trump campaign released on Twitter today about 30 minutes after Pelosi’s press conference. It is a call to arms to all his supporters.
3
@Cat - It is not at all surprising to think that Trump would issue a call to arms. Trump is a crazy narcissist.
But it is equally crazy to think that the US military or Republicans would support a military coup.
Edsall's irresponsible article cites literally no evidence that either the American military, who are sworn to protect the Constitution, or people who vote Republican, would support a military coup in support of Trump.
It is hard to believe the Times published such an irresponsible article, even as an opinion piece. And reading the reader comments of people who take the possibility of a coup seriously makes me believe Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real thing.
1
Based on this it seems that more attention should be turned to Fox News. It seems that their real money making is on telling Republicans what victims they are. They can do that Trump or no Trump. Perhaps even better with a Trump loss, so they could all collectively bemoan their greatest "victim" of all. Meanwhile the moneybags over there I'm guessing would prefer stability over constitutional crisis.
They could even keep airing his tweets once he's out of office and keep some of the ratings (blech).
The younger Murdochs seem to be a bit less craven than the elder. I wish some influential people would start seeding the ideas with them on how they can play a profitable role in peaceful transfer of power.
Experts' political predictions are no better than that of regular people. This is well known. Phillip Tetlock wrote the standard work on this.
There are no stable estimates of probability as are in, for example, roulette. The system is too complex.
Nassim Taleb's 4th quadrant applies here.
The truth is that no one knows what Trump will do.
Listen to the experts on this matter? Might as well keep getting those stock tips from CNBC. Might as well estimate the probability of alien contact in the next century.
It is, however, worth thinking about potential outcomes without putting numbers to them. Then you can prepare for the various outcomes. I hear this is what US military strategists do.
2
@vbering
Agreed. Carry on expecting all the shouting to amount to nothing. ...but keep the ammo dry and the wine cellar cool. You can never have too much wine or ammunition.
1
"Will Trump Ever Leave the White House?"
I've been asking the same question every day since his inauguration.
Forget about the crown on the Mall that day. There's been one too many people at the White House every day since.
Do the gun people see the irony? For decades they have argued that unrestricted gun ownership is necessary to prevent an illegal, unconstitutional usurpation of authority. But now, they may put their arsenals in the service of exactly such a coup. It was never about principal and always about partisanship -- the stockpiling of weapons to force an agenda, when the opportunity presents.
And anyone who conflates the present impeachment inquiry with "illegal usurpation" is either a troll or hopelessly self-deluded.
7
The U.S. Constitution (via the 20th amendment, added in 1933) says the president's term ends at noon on January 20th. No ifs, ands, or buts. So, either Donald J. Trump wins the 2020 election or on 12:01 pm of January 20, 2021 he is definitely not president.
It doesn't matter that the election may have been fraudulent, or that VP Pence as President of the Senate refused to open the electoral votes, or that a national emergency is in effect, or that the Chief Justice declined to administer the oath. The former president's term has ended, period.
Does that mean that the Secret Service courteously but firmly escorts the former president from the building? They can read the law as well as anyone.
If there is any doubt about the election or about who the successor is, the Constitution gives Congress the power to name the officer who will act in the president's role, and the current law of succession selects the Speaker of the House.
Using my imagination as to how a new president could be disrupted from being selected, it would require both disrupting the electoral-vote process and preventing the House of Representatives from sitting and selecting a Speaker. That would seem to require an old-fashioned, tanks-in-the-streets coup.
If he stays in office and gets voted out in 2020, what will the day after Election Day be like? What will the transition period be like? What will his last day in office be like? What will Inauguration Day be like? None of the likely scenarios involve Trump conducting himself like a responsible adult. Bad things could easily happen.
1
We hear a lot about what happens if Trump doesn't leave, if Trump wins, if Trump doesn't win...so on and so forth. What Times and other news papers must report more on, is what the general public envision for a future America. Assuming Climate Change doesn't wipe us out, what kind of country would an average Joe-the-plumber like to see themselves or their progeny living in say, 2050? What about the kind of country a second-generation immigrant American would like to see themselves live in? And how about everyone in between? There is a lot of fruitless nostalgia on the right and a lot of pie-in-the-sky dreams on the left. The question is "What does a pragmatic American want for their future and how they would like to see us all work towards it?"
Whichever candidate builds this vision for the future, makes it appear within reach and promises to move us there so long as we all agree shake hands and make peace - that will be my 2020 candidate irrespective of ideology.
2
foreign policy disaster doesnt matter, according to AEI's Charles Murray. What matters, according to him is that the markets work, the courts protect those markets and the economy boom. god, no wonder people thought Marx was correct.
3
It seems that Charles Murray of the AEI must take a reprehensible stand, given that he detests Trump and sees clearly exactly what he is. If he thinks a Warren presidency is worse than having a cruel sub-human at the helm, then he has some profound problems of his own. When that sub-human panics and wants to find cover, he will begin a war or call for martial law. That is preferable to some regulations that he doesn't like and lawyers that may not meet his litmus tests? That is Trump's "deplorable" base.
3
Charles Murray said: "I also think that the nation needs to control its borders and limit low-skill immigration."
This is backwards. Higher-skilled immigrants take jobs current residents want to do, not the ones they do not want. Low-skill immigration fills a real need and gives those who have zero options in their home country to work their way up, provided they are protected with strong pro-worker laws.
6
So if the Democrats do not like the final results of a presidential election, they will impeach the Republican president. This is a very dangerous move for our country. We live in a democracy where the candidate who wins the electoral college is the president. This is in the constitution but that means little to the Democrats. We should all be afraid if the Democrats succeed which is, of course, unlikely. The people will revolt and never stand for this lawlessness. You must have a reason to impeach and the Democrats do not have one. The reason they want to get rid of our duly elected president is that they hate him and his policies. The people strongly disagree.
61
@KMW Well, some people disagree and they are a minority in the 40% range.
74
@KMW
It was a request for foreign interference in our democratic process. That's impeachable.
I didn't want an impeachment, but there's no choice now. We have to respect the law.
235
@KMW We did not like George W. Bush and we were really angry about the 2000 election. We did not try to impeach GWB, however.
300
The emphasis on "racial isolation" that Edsall mentions has become a shibboleth on the Left, but it is an oversimplification. What motivates the Right (and the Left) is a profound sense of grievance that operates on multiple levels at once: racial, economic and cultural. That combination is what gives it so much power, and makes it so relentless. For convenience, and for lack of a better term, we can call that mindset, "tribal." If the economy turns down, as it now appears to be doing, its power can only grow.
2
I used to think that, despite the slant, this was a reasonably rational column. No more. It has always been clear that Edsall and the academics he quotes never venture out of the ivory towers they inhabit and see citizens as little more that lab rats. The disconnect is stark and evidently unbridgeable.
5
Seriously?
Trump Derangement Syndrome taken to a new level.
Might he file lawsuits and contest his election loss in the courts? Sure. But numerous politicians do that (Stacy Abrams in Georgia, for one).
But the premise he is going to declare himself "President for Life" and refuse to leave the Oval Office on someone else's Inauguration Day? And that sizable portions of our military or our populace would support that? Are you kidding me?
7
"I despise him and think he is unfit to be president."
Despite that, Murray continued, “it is also quite possible that I will find myself voting for him next year.”
So, Murray's problem with Donald Trump is that he's too open about his repugnance.
Destroying the nation is fine, so long as you go about your business while being loyal to your friends and showing "unconditional generosity," whatever that means in the context of increasing already-obscene wealth inequality while also destroying democracy.
5
I have thought all along that those of us who want to continue to live in a democracy need to have a contingency plan if Trump doesn't leave. None other than Michael Cohen told the House Oversight Committee that Trump would not do so willingly.
Millions need to be ready to mobilize and shut down Washington. At some point he's not just an annoyance and a disgrace, he will become an existential threat to our future and the world's.
Basically, we're living the Founders' nightmare.
6
Although I think Trump will do everything in his power to maintain his place in office, up to and including instituting martial law, I do not believe many people will commit violence to defend him. Some may, and they will be well armed and cause significant carnage on a local level, as we have already seen in El Paso.
But most supporters of Trump support him for emotional reasons and these feelings may be intense, but they are shallow. For example, football fans can be rabid, engaging in insult and even fistfights on occasion. But how many times have you heard of people killing each other over a football team. There is a line that mentally healthy people are unwilling to cross.
The question is how many of the President's supporters are willing to kill and die for him. Very few I believe. The weight of moral authority is on the side of Democrats and I have to believe that most citizens of this country, including its military, see that and agree with it. Trump may well have to be removed from office kicking and screaming, but I don't see any major force taking up arms to defend him.
7
Given the fact that his party and a sizable portion of the country seem to have become inured to chaos and corruption in this administration, nothing would surprise me now---except for courage and principle to reemerge in the Republican party.
8
Those of us who have studied the Constitution and who genuinely appreciate the rule of law and the ways in which this country was meant to self-govern, will be sure to vote this narcissist out of office in 2020. By then, surely the Congressional and Judicial branches of our government will have had ample opportunity to examine the ample (and ever-forthcoming) evidence that proves the narcissist has no place in our government, and he shall be removed. One way or another, all totally legal.
2
What? Is it really possible? If he loses the election, his reign is over. The winner, as determined by the electoral college, actually becomes the President on January 20, 2021. At that point the President has many ways to remove Trump, including the Secret Service. I'm not worried about this at all.
4
We are in an uncertain era that is truly unprecedented. Mr Trump has broken all norms responsible leadership, decorum and civility in his rhetoric, actions and exhortations to his base. The Republicans in both houses have evolved into his ardent supporters and enablers. Edsall’s Points aren’t that far fetched.
2
Sorry, but you sound paranoid. If Trump loses the election, he's gone, period. If he refuses to leave, he'll be physically removed. Not worried about militias and motorcycle gangs having it out with the military. Things are bad enough now without fantasizing about a civil war. It's not going to happen. Trump is the most unpopular president in history. And many who voted for him already regret it.
5
If we can reverse what Goldstone calls Trump "voters’ belief that Trump is acting for them" that would be the turning point. I suspect that if we can find out what Putin has on Trump we will get there.
1
I think this speculative talk gives Trump way too much credit, and makes our government sound so weak and cowed by this damaged man. He's only been in office for three years, and has made many, many enemies. Plus, deep down, he's an unprincipled coward with no loyalty to anyone but himself and his children, which he views as extensions of himself. The U.S. is a powerful democracy, and Trump - though dangerous - is mostly full of hot air.
4
Yes, he will leave. In 2024.
2
For years people in NYC prayed for Trump to just go away. And he sort of did in the sense that he lost what little credibility he had to begin with, nobody listened to him anymore, the gossip columnists he relied on died, went senile, or just got fired. Then all of a sudden he's back, and we think well okay now we have to wait for him to go away again. But the scenario this writer suggests is frightening beyond belief.
2
Trump will leave the White House at the end of his second term.
2
This is a scary article. A lot of these commentators are too young to remember the riots of 1968, but I do. I remember Detroit burning, and how it stayed burned up for decades. There won't be a "civil war" or a "coup" but there could be rioting. When you look at the photos of the trumpists, they are old and fat and if they think they can take on even their local police force, the reality is not for long. I saw the military in action after Superstorm Sandy. Your pick-up truck is no match for rovers with tires as high as the roof of your truck. Meanwhile I just keep binge eating.
2
Republicans have been working to reject democratic outcomes for decades. Extreme gerrymandering, voter suppression, voting laws designed to disenfranchise Democratic voters — all are calculated to defy demographic and democratic trends that tend to favor Democrats.
Astonishingly, some 0.1 percenters on Wall Street have in effect said that they are with the Republicans on this, most recently with saber-rattling from wealthy Democratic donors about supporting Trump if Elizabeth Warren is the Democratic nominee.
The real question is not how Republicans might fake a Trump victory in 2020 (assuming he that their existing techniques aren't sufficient to pull off a 'real' victory). The real question is what happens if Trump unambiguously loses and refuses to step down in 2020/21, or refuses to leave in 2025.
Conservatives like William Barr are happy to grant Trump enormous, unaccountable power. With his fondness for branding critics as traitors, Trump has repeatedly made clear that he believes that he is the state. And Trump and others clearly fantasize about violence as a means to capture office.
After 9/11 Rudolf Giuliani floated the idea of suspending the mayoral election — a "state of exception," as conceived by Cart Schmitt and Giorgio Agamben. Republicans are fantasizing about it. Be afraid.
2
On the contrary, there will be vicious claw marks all over various parts of, not only the Oval Office, but the various hallways leading to the exit from the White House when #45 is ‘removed’ from office!
2
One positive characteristic of the Trump electorate, in this context, is that they are mostly old. As much as they might like, a posse of arthritic old guys isn't going to make a very effective militia ;-)
3
The elected President would be sworn into office regardless of whether this corrupt and lying monster says he'll leave or not. At that point, the US Military reports to the new commander in chief. Trump will then be removed whether he likes it or not. That being said, he will not risk his brand reputation further and step aside to preserve what will be left of his corporate empire.
I didn't vote for him, and also believe he sought out and received extensive outside help in his election (and he clearly is still seeking help with Ukraine). That being said, I hoped for the best and wanted to be proven wrong by this guy. His actions as President are worse than I could even have imagined. Sorry, I have yet to see ANY redeeming qualities to date.
If he wants my respect, he will step down for the good of the country. All of us. It's time to start fresh and start healing. What a sad time in our country. Peace.
4
If White Christian Americans want a White Christian President, fine. Let them come up with a respectable, law abiding White person, man or woman, who is a Christian who actually follows the teachings of Jesus, who actually believes in and respects the Constitution, who has a brain good enough to handle the powers and responsibilities of office, and all Americans, Brown, Black, Yellow, Red and White, Christian and otherwise, will vote for that President, and be happy to have that person in office But Donald Trump is not such a person, such a man.
The Democrats have offered a number of White, Christian, even male, candidates, who fit that description this year. Virtually all of these White, Christian males have held office, across the country, and I have heard no protests from White Christians that they have been abused by any of these Democratic office holders. Joe Biden is the only White Christian male among them who seems to have attracted much support. I would think White Christians across the country could and should feel comfortable with any of them.
But White Christian Americans also have another such candidate available in 2020. That candidate is Elizabeth Warren. I haven't heard one word out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth that should bring fear to any decent White Christian.
But Donald Trump is not a good, White Christian Man, is not a good American, is not competent. You can do better, Republicans. Surprise us, Republicans. And we'll surprise you.
2
“It signals to Trump’s (overwhelmingly white) supporters that he’s willing to represent them at any cost, even that of liberal democracy itself.” By Bart Bonikowski
That would be “white, uneducated.” They would be mowed down with machine guns by our military if they riot with their guns. They barely know how to use them.
“America is teetering toward socialism and cultural chaos. Hence, the President has the right to push the boundaries of his power to achieve the right outcomes.” By Bruce Cain
Cain needs to do some reading to understand socialism. We are no where near teetering with that. In socialism a central government runs everything; business (or minimally highly regulates it in the sense of costs, control of exec salaries) the military, the schools. That would never be accepted in this country. We need to stop the money buying off politicians which drives up the wealth of the wealthy. We do need to re-distribute money as in Senator Warren’s tax on millionaires and billionaires; and break up monopolies. Capitalism can work but not unless regulated.
2
“So there you have it: I despise the man, worry that he will make terrible foreign policy blunders, but from my perspective policies under Trump are vastly superior to the policies that would be pursued by the leading Democratic candidates. It’s a Hobson’s choice.”
You love his policies because they’re your policies, not his. He gives you tax breaks, you support his power grab. He gives you supreme court justices, you overlook his cozying up to vicious dictators. You set aside your principles and character In exchange for his promise to completely erase all traces of the hated Obama.
It’s not really a Hobson’s choice. It’s more like a Jabez Stone’s choice. Who is going to be your Daniel Webster when this has all played out?
5
Murray is wrong. If he is facing a "Hobson's choice" between two unacceptable alternatives, he is not morally obligated to vote. You do not have to choose the lesser of two evils.
2
OpEds like this belong in the Enquirer. The mere suggestion that a president could turn into a military and militia empowered dictator is at best laughable and more appropriately divisive nonsense. A coup as described in the article is as likely as Canada deciding they have had enough and annexing the United States. Why are smart and reasoned people even talking about this. Oh wait, the smart and reasoned ones aren’t.
10
Trump is welcome tasty in the White House as long as he wants = but there are conditions.
He would be locked up in a soundproof cell like that in a supertax prison with no TV, no Internet, a steel toilet that is not gold-plated, guarded 24/7/365 with no visitors and fed Big Macs and Coke only.
Those are OUR terms - take them or leave.
2
I have personally witnessed what a heavily armed rebel army and disorganized armed civilians tried to do against a competent government's military (Britain, France) force. The conflict was over in two days. There were over 1000 less rebels and the remainder carried only a white flag of surrender.
Mr. Edsall writes an interesting scenario here. However, he seems to have little idea of what a trained and extremely competent military can do. No military officer who has sworn to protect his/her country and its constitution will obey an illegal order even if it came from POTUS.
The prospects of this happening are next to zero and Trumps's fanning the flames of a "civil war" is simply a diabolical attempt to sew even more discontent among an already jittery population.
4
I notice the right argues that impeachment and conviction would be a subversion of the electoral process that elected Trump. But they fail to notice that an election also resulted in a Democratic majority in the House. In other words, the right doesn’t really like the results of all elections, just the ones by which they can gain the power to stick us with courts packed with the likes of the odious Brett Kavanaugh.
3
Mr. Edsall's Halloween piece would be scary indeed -- if it were accurate.
In point of fact, the highly regarded Pew Research Center reported late last year that 80% of Americans said "they have confidence that the military will act in the best interest of the people."
By way of comparison, the news media received just 40% votes of confidence, while elected officials got 25%. I wouldn't be surprised if both numbers are lower in future polls because of damage they've done to our nation since 2016.
Re comparisons with Watergate: I was working in the Pentagon in 1974 as the Nixon Administration went through its well-deserved death throes. As military officers sworn to "uphold and defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic," (note "domestic") there was never any doubt about where our loyalties lay.
(Matter of fact, Gerald Ford, who peacefully replaced Richard Nixon on Aug. 9, 1974, was a fine, courageous president who
deserved better from voters in 1976.)
Instead of plotting a coup that summer of '74, we shared a quip in the Pentagon, as so many of the Nixon Administration executives either quit or were ash-canned. Our joke: "If my boss calls, get his name."
The just-appointed top military leader, JCS chairman
Gen. Mark Milley, has degrees from Princeton and Columbia. Does that sound like a potential cabal leader?
Mr. Edsall needs to be considerably more appreciative of our military's faithfulness.
Bob Orkand
Lt. Col. Inf. U.S. Army (Ret.)
8
I agree as a military spouse that our military will resist being pawns in a coup. However I am not completely sanguine: the officer corps, who went for Hillary Clinton despite many despising the Clintons because they saw what trump was is one thing. Too many of the enlisted areswayed and gullible and afffected by both fake news and white supremacy creeping in especially in areas like North Carolina. I think Trump would try to play on that and there would be an unholy mess for their leaders to sort out. And that poll of peoples faith in the military to “do the right thing” by the American people? There’s the crux- I know people who would answer yes but the would mean the right thing was personal loyalty to Trump because he’s brainwashed them to think that.
3
No one in this country takes an oath to preserve, protect, and defend Donald J. Trump. They take an oath to preserve and defend the Constitution of the United States. We must hold to that allegiance, not ones to race or class or gender.
6
@Gary
Oh, Donald Trump definitely needs to be preserved!
In formalin, that is. And then put on permanent exhibit in the dungeons.
Stop stirring the pot. All polls agree that Trump's loyal followers are a minority. Trump lost the House in the last election and many Republican legislators are "retiring".
Trump lives in his own world of sycophants. He respects and envies dictators that kill rebels. He says Schiff should be tried for treason. He claims Impeachment is a "coup" and now he's talking civil war. What is his lie count today? It exceeded 10,300 last time I looked. Asking the Ukraine to investigate Biden is impeachable and Mueller's data would be sufficient to add Obstruction of Justice to the charges. Impeachment is overdue.
There are white supremacy militias armed with military style weapons that the FBI is calling dangerous. The idea they can fight a Civil War against the US Army is fear mongering at the Trump level and the idea the US Army will turn on the US Government because they love Trump is Trumpian fantasy.
8
Perhaps FOX NEWS will become more nuanced as the rest of FOX moves over to Disney. This leaves FOX NEWS much more vulnerable to boycott and possible legal actions when they 'get carried away' with alternative facts. You can already see the WSJ providing less support and, in fact, actual news coverage unflattering to Trump.
2
At one point old London was filthy and dangerous, filled with foulness of every type - scatological, verbal, human. One good lookie-loo was all the warning you got before the street was splattered with excrement. That's kind of how I view the Trump administration. London went on to become a civil, clean, beautiful city. I hold out hope that we can erase Trump and all the corruption he brings and the GOP allows.
2
Republicans are concerned with the policy implications of winning and losing. Court nominations and rollbacks of regulation are their focus. Democrats hold these as important too, but equally or even more important to them is the process through which winners and losers are selected. For Republicans, any process that lets them win is fair and acceptable, and any process under which they lose is unfair, unacceptable, and to be challenged. We saw this in Florida
Republicans have been changing the process to their advantage without discussing or defending their changes as such. They defend gerrymandering by its results rather than as a process. A process defense might argue that it is good for the country's stability and continuity if a faction's victory is very difficult to overturn, since overturning it would require a landslide in the other direction rather than a mere substantial majority; these defenses are rarely found in public conversations.
Republicans may and do talk about the Constitution and limited government, but such talk has little to do with their actual behavior or values and usually functions as a smoke screen to hide from others and themselves what they are up to. Conservatives are at war, and the function of such talk is to reassure those of their supporters who care about such things and confuse moderates who care into thinking that conservatives share their concerns. Some of these warriors are found as NYT op-ed contributors.
There will be no 2020 election. Wake up everyone. By accusing the Dems of a coup, trump will declare martial law and become a complete dictator. Once this happens he will squash McConnell like a bug!! Impeach immediately!!
4
As much as I believe leaving the US is the way to go, much of this column should be listed under "science fiction/fantasy."
4
October 2, 2019
Hard to say but the sad president DJT is of the believe that he owns America for the love of being 'chosen,' and with his irrationality systemic and beyond the rational we have seen and will continue to experience what is best understood as ' panic attacks, of being loved and in controlled. As if a puppet on the Rudy strings and all for ego aberrations that require a congressional interactions for an impaired president. To answer the it would be a decent humanitarian display to keep a Bellevue ambulance at the ready wherever his location is -
Let's remember for him to believe in his mental worthiness he loves to command chaos with everyone and everywhere and then blame game Atlantic City casino gig the banker Trump control freak can only monetize outrage - Note: not even a Dante could invent such a worthy inferno resident for eternity and all the rest of the world will sing joy to the world a prince is the Comedia the true Godfather...
2
I made this same comment in response to Jamelle Bouie's column about Trump's irresponsible rhetoric.
Trump's use of language, as of everything else, is careless, impetuous, reckless, and heedless. It's also clear that at heart he is a coward as well as a narcissist: his bark is far worse than his bite, because (a) see above about careless, impetuous etc. and (b) he doesn't really want to deal with any actual consequences of his words other than the psychological relief they give him -- the sense that he has signaled his dominance.
He does not personally have the attention span or the strategic discipline to actually instigate a violent confrontation. But to point that out is not to suggest that it couldn't happen anyway, because of the extremely unpredictable potential of his cult followers, and possibly of others for whom he has been essentially a useful idiot, to seize on his inflammatory rhetoric and run with it for reasons of their own.
1
Interesting and, frankly, sickening discussion. Honestly, Trump is all gas and fundamentally a coward through-and-through. If by some long-shot he's actually evicted from office he will leave. Let's not forget that by most evidence his wealth probably is in the hands of banks and other (ahem) lenders who are not likely to tolerate supporting a self-style idiotic, narcissistic revolutionary.
3
The article illustrates how Trump would rally his angry white supporters to help him defy an impeachment or election loss. What it doesn't ask is where this anger and fear comes from.
It assumes merely animus towards non-whites, but I believe that is far too simple. Instead, the sense of persecution comes from liberals' relentless shaming of white Americans for the Original Sin of being born white. "White privilege," "typical white male," "whiteness is problematic," "white entitlement," etc. It assigns group racial guilt and asserts that race is an essential feature, in the very same way that a member of the tiki torch crowd would. The difference is that this has become the fashionable way for people - especially white liberals - to advertise that they are among the Un-bigoted. We live with the absurd situation that an out of work high school educated coal miner is an oppressor who needs to "check his privilege."
In this environment, observations of white demographic decline sound more like gleeful predictions of a future comeuppance for white Americans. And liberals wonder why many whites would want to shelter under the wing of a repulsive demagogue.
3
Is what we are seeing the fallout from having elected Barack Obama? Was his election too radical for the US? Did Obama's election actually mobilize people to vote for Trump in lieu of an alternative? Can this happen again? Have we unleashed a genie from a bottle, and, in so doing, unwittingly created a path to a dictatorship? No answers, only questions.
1
Let us,gwt something straight: Mr. Jeffress and his comgregation call themselves "Christian " but they aren't. They are theocrats who worship a petty, vengeful deity that they have constructed in their own image. They want a seity and a government that reflects their fear laden, close minded selves.
If the most important commandment s are to love other people as Christ loves us, and rhat we do unto others as we would have them do unto us, we are far, far from coming anywhere near upholding those ideals.
From the beginning of his campaign to the present Donald Trump has done nothing to
encourage unity. He seeks to divide and to frighten. He is horribly unsuited for his job.
Every time I read some "educated" conservative continue to defend holding their nose and voting for Trump, all I hear is "I am comfortable with and willing to fundamentally change what America means in order to make sure a white man is in power and to make sure my taxes are 3% lower"
Everything else is just babble.
3
My own views are a bit more straightforward. Trump will never leave the White House willingly or under his own power. He knows he would be indicted and likely spend time in prison were he to do so. He will not leave if he loses the election. He will not go if he is impeached. He will never resign. He will call for armed insurrection, civil war, violence--as he has already done. He will resort to histrionic lies about his critics and political adversaries--as he already has--accusing them of coups, deep states, etc. Congressional Republicans have fallen all over themselves to normalize everything he has done no matter how vile or undemocratic it is. Is there anything at all that could compel them to put the wellbeing of the nation and its democracy first? These academics describe textbook fascism, a textbook demagogue, and a textbook idolatrous, white supremacist, personality cult.
3
His recent talk of a "coup" against him has me concerned. The closest Trump gets to telling the truth is in the false accusations against his perceived enemies on which he projects his own criminal mind and wrongdoings.
I think we're witnessing a coup right now--by Trump, aided and abetted by the likes of Barr, Pompeo and Giuliani.
2
How did incompetent people gain and maintain control of countries, including Xi, Duterte, Putin, and Kim? Support of the generals. It’s getting late. Do we know where our generals stand? Seriously.
1
I wrote several times previously that there will soon be a military coup because the rank and file have become culturally appalachianized. Each time the moderators expunged me. Now Edsall is warning about the same thing.
Several readers invoke Congress and the military top brass. As Edsall points out, coups are typically led by colonels, not generals.
1
Thoughts and opinions expressed in this article are ridiculous and immature. The Nuremberg trials and details that emerged from them have allowed the U.S. military to effectively train its personnel, so as to safeguard from the possible perils mentioned in this article. The Uniform Code of Military Justice requires the military personnel to abide by the U.S. Constitution, obey only lawful orders of its superiors (military or Civilian), and disregard all unlawful and immoral orders.
82
@Parthasarthy,
Yes, I think this article is stoking fear and likely to only make things worse.
We have all heard Trumps threats to ignore the next election’s results. Right now we need to focus on the legal process of impeachment, not speculation.
8
@Parthasarthy, I think this article is spot on. As Edsall writes, you have only to listen to what Trump himself has said -- many times.
Coups come in many forms.
11
@Parthasarthy, On the whole. There are elements that may differ, and it may be that they can be concentrated and positioned to exert leverage neutralizing the rest.
I have consistently maintained that Trump is far less dangerous in office (on account of his incompetence) than he would be on the way out the door (on account of his sheer malevolence). It’s not at all difficult to imagine him encouraging armed followers to roll into Times Square and begin taking hostages at the nation’s media companies, banks, universities, and law firms — a spectacle that would doubtless repeat itself in urban centers throughout America where resistance to his corruption runs deepest.
This, after all, is the man who speculated he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue without losing votes; his followers live in a bizarro, parallel universe orchestrated by paranoiac right-wing polemicists who have convinced them (and convinced themselves) that any Democratic victory is de facto illegitimate. It happened in Rwanda and it absolutely could happen here.
1
Some suppose that Trump's hard core supporters are motivated by fear. While such may be the case, those that I know are less motivated by fear than they are by anger -- an anger that Trump manages to focus.
1
As now a greater portion of the voting public favors impeachment inquiries, I think that Republicans in the Senate will have to think long and hard about what their constituents want. If everyone in all but the reddest of areas wants Trump gone, it would be political suicide for these Senators to close ranks around a disgraced president.
2
Donald Trump seems to shrink from the reality of violence (see, for example, his reluctance to attack Iran, and his firing of John Bolton). I think he'd be very hesitant to call out the army. But, rhetorically, it seems almost certain that he'd declare that he was refusing the leave the White House in case of impeachment and conviction, or in case he lost the 2020 election, even by a large margin. The question, then, is, would he submit to being "escorted" out?
I have a hard time collecting my thoughts on this important essay by Thomas Edsall.
It is certainly true that Trump provides a serious challenge to America's democracy. In the worst case scenario, the 2020 election would be close and Trump would try to cling to power in spite of having narrowly lost the electoral vote.
But although Trump's actions have weakened governmental institution, the Democrats are also responsible for weakening America's institutions. For example, the Me Too movement has made a mockery of the constitutional protection of due process presumably guaranteed to all citizens.
I recently visited the the Place de la Concorde in Paris where many lost their heads during the French Revolution.
If Donald Trump reminds me of Louis XVI, the Pelosi and Schumer remind me of Robespierre and Danton. After the French revolutionaries executed Louis in 1794, the revolutionaries turned on each other and Robespierre and Danton also lost their heads. Then 20 years later the French reinstated the Bourbon dynasty by installing Louis's brother as king. Some would argue the revolution accomplished nothing.
Democrats have become too extreme. The NY Times has egged the extremists on.
Why not allow others to believe that homosexuality is sinful? Why characterize all efforts to stop immigration as racist? (In fact, why not compromise on illegal immigration?) Why tear down monuments to Robert E Lee? Why force whites make reparations for slaves they never owned?
I was a loyal Nixon-supporter throughout. Then, it dawned on me that I was on the wrong side. Many of Trump's seemingly most loyal supporters will see the light. Not everyone is as crazy as Trump.
5
Trump has every incentive to stay in power. He may be charged with crimes after he leaves office. Additionally, his businesses are suffering, and the hotel business will dry up even more if countries and businesses don't have to book rooms to curry favor. Trump is looking at a bust of historic proportions once he leaves office.
No wonder he is desperate. He would have done so much better for himself if he hadn't run for President.
1
When Senate Republicans fail to convict Trump, a huge wave of liberal Americans and racial minorities will purchase AR15s and AK47s, and stockpile ammunition. Then, let’s see what Trump says about staying in office if and when he loses in 2020.
1
I propose a new hashtag: #I'mGoing
It means that if Donald Trump reacts to an election loss by refusing to vacate the White House, I'm going to Washington, straight to the White House front gate and I'm not leaving until he does. I'll be armed with only my voice and my determination.
I would think that the prospect of 10-20 million Americans surrounding the White House demanding his departure might have him think twice about staying.
1
Judging by what I've seen of Trump on TV recently, my guess is that he'll go out on a gurney, after he has had a heart attack, stroke, burst aneurysm, or his extremities rot off due to his diabetes. Whenever he speaks, he is bug-eyed, with distended veins and arteries in his neck and face. Regardless of his attempts to hide it with XXXXXL++++ suits, he looks like he is either pregnant (septuplets), or has severe ascites ; probably because of his excessive alcohol consumption.
He looks angry 100% of the time, which can't be a good thing for his blood pressure. However, we can all take heart in the fact that what's bad for Donald's blood sugar concentration, his liver and his hypertension is good for America.
Let the Impeachment begin !
1
He's 73, overweight, unhealthy looking (doesn't exercise according to him) and feeds himself a diet of fast food and conspiracy theories. Statistically, he isn't long for this world.
3
I hope there is not an outbreak of conspiracy theories affecting our academia. We have enough with Trump acting on them through international relations. It started the impeachment process.
No country is vaccinated against totalitarianism. But are you saying that white supremacists found their leader in Trump and that they could make, with the help of Fox, a Dictator Trump?
Because until now we have a delusional commander in chief who acts like "L'état, c'est moi" (without the brilliant cabinet that Louis XIV had).
I have no doubts about white supremacists' and Fox's daydreams. But homeland security, as I read in the NYT, has already determined the national security threat of the white supremacists and our military, colonel or not, are institutional. If Trump is removed from his job by the Senate or lose re-election, the military will act because he will no longer be their commander.
Many Americans are too ignorant or lazy to make an effort to stay abreast of real news. After listening only to Fox and Trump, they have become convinced that if it’s not from one of those two sources, it isn’t true. It reminds me of the story about the military parade in which the mother says, “Look, everybody’s out of step except my Johnny!”
I was sad to see that Donnie has settled on the word "coup".
Yes, I understand that it is a simple word, easy to say, no one could get it wrong..... coo......see? But I can see in Donnie's limited world of , you know, "language", that it could become tiresome very quickly.
So, here's some words that the rest of us can use, just so it doesn't get boring.
Coup (yes, covered that.)
Coup d'etat
Rebellion
Revolution
Uprising
Revolt
Insurrection
Mutiny
Putsch (ohhhh, I'll bet he likes that one!)
Sedition
Shadow government
Treason
Betrayal
....and then there is the "just-plain-ole-garden-variety" double-cross.
That's the one I think we got.
Nothing fancy.
Nothing exotic.
No need to check in with the pundits, it has all just been a plain-ole Mafiosa-style "double-cross".
He stood before 320 million people and took the Oath of Office -- and he never meant a word of it.
There is one more word I haven't used yet.
It is: Betrayal.
And, that word has been commonly used about Donnie for decades.
Betrayal. Double-cross.
Let's not dress this up.
4
Trump can tweet all kinds of despicable nonsense without direct consequence. But trying to hold on to the presidency after losing an election is quite different. It can land one in prison for a long time. Not just Trump but anyone who helps him will be very exposed to very dire consequences.
Do Trump and his supporters really have the intestinal fortitiude?
2
So, Charles Murray, the man who wrote the "Bell Curve" and claims to believe in the value of intelligent decision making, would vote for a man he believes to be completely unfit to be president if the other candidate was Elizabeth Warren. A woman who is not a despicable, malignant narcissist as he describes Trump, but who does believe in things like consumer protection and healthcare? The horror, the horror.
Actually, not surprising coming from a closet racist like Murray, and indicative of the real source of Trump's appeal.
1
Our law abiding military is more powerful than Trump's second amendment friends. Food for thought.
1
The imprimatur of an Ivy League professor, or Professor Emeritus, or Professor of Thinkology from Universitatus Committeeatum e plurbis unum, is frankly meaningless post-2016. The hysteria from academia has continued unabated since the 2016 election and already many of their predictions have been proven false. This is all part of the strategy to paint this President as a lunatic, a dictator, a criminal, and a danger to the rule of law and the US Constitution...once again, none of which has come to pass. Maybe enough of those swing state Trump voters who were too ignorant to understand the implications of voting for Trump (much like the hoi polloi who voted for “Leave” in the UK) will vote correctly in 2020?
This is hard to take seriously. DJT is all talk. He blusters and foams but doesn't ever do anything. He hasn't started wars, attacked anybody and in fact has backed down when it came time to "pull the trigger" every time. I suspect if he'd been president in 2001 he'd still be talking about how the taliban are really going to get it some day. The Mexicans and the Chinese appear to take him seriously but nobody else does. When he looses next year there will be a bunch of tweets and name calling and then he'll just slink off stage.
Reagan's 11th Commandment began the whole cult of what is now a corrupt and elite faction of people who will not answer to the rule of law in U.S. government.
Reagan's idea that no matter what a fellow republican does, thou shalt not condescend created this president who believes he has the power to "shoot someone on 5th Ave" and get away with it.
1
He'll presumably go into exile at one of his awful golf courses in Ireland or Scotland, and continue ordering airstrikes only to rescind them at the last minute.
Benjamin Franklin famously said of our formof government "a republic, if you can keep it." I believe that 2020 is as dangerous as 1860.
1
Amazing - people still don't get it - Trump is a grifter who pretends to be a tough guy, and who would no more risk going to prison for sedition then he would than he would cheating the mafia guys he did business with for so many years. Those guys don't sue you - they hurt you. Trump is the classic school yard bully who ony picks on those he is confidant can not fight back. We dont believe anything else he says - why then do we give any credence to his wannabe strong man act.
2
N o he will not leave voluntarily. It is not in his psychological makeup unless he gets 100% immunity from state and federal prosecution and dismissal of all lawsuits.
Not a cover-up, just an enhanced inverted truth.
10
I know I am writing to readers of the NYT and MSM who have been against the President and calling for his impeachment before he even took office. The reality is the left has fired the first shot in this battle by upending norms and refusing to accept that Trump is the President. Between the constant media attempt to whip up controversy, the Democrats in Congress screaming that “he is not my President” and the Hollywood elite acting out of control and threatening the President it is obvious they will not accept anyone with an R as President. The media remember called Romney and McCain both racist and evil before they had the decency to lose. Trump punches back, which is why the media bullies hate him.You have already shown you will not accept our choice, why would you be shocked when we don’t accept yours? I think republicans will. We are not as Evil as you have proven yourself to be.
1
The more things proceed, the more pathetic Trump's responses will become.
Folks generally don't throw their support behind leaders who appear pathetic, and that's what will be his downfall.
2
Maybe we will have to come from France to bail you out of tyranny a second time.
131
@JPH, Please do. And keep us this time under France's rule. This will insure peace in the world.
15
People give Trump far too much credit. If he thought he was going to win in 2020, he wouldn't be trying to shakedown leaders of vulnerable countries to insure it. He's a weak little crybaby deep down and will exit the race before he allows himself to actually lose an election.
2
Look as though Trump Derangement Symptom (TDS) has struck yet again among the NYT's op-ed columnists, as witnessed by Mr. Edsall's Halloween horror tale about military coups, etc.
The respected Pew Research Center, in a poll released late last year, found that 80% of Americans polled "said they have confidence that the military will act in the best interests of the public."
The same poll reported that confidence in the news media stood at 40%, with elected officials garnering a mere 25% of the public's confidence. The poll's full results are worth Googling, since they refute a major premise of Mr. Edsall's poisoned apple, to wit, that the U.S. military would ignore the will of the American populace.
I had some personal experience working in the Pentagon in the summer of 1974, when Richard Nixon's administration was in its death throes. Appropriate reminders were issued by DoD to call attention to our constitutionally mandated duties as military officers. Not the merest hint of an insurrection ever arose.
Instead, as heads rolled in D.C. that summer, we circulated a quip, "If my boss calls, get his name."
Mr. Edsall, I know it's beneath your dignity, but you owe every one of us who has served in uniform, currently serves, or will serve in coming years, an apology.
We are the ones making it possible for you to write your fear-mongering drivel.
Bob Orkand
Lt. Col. U.S. Army, Infantry (Ret.)
17th Inf. Regt. Korea; 1st Cav Div., Vietnam; Berlin Brigade; Pentagon; etc.
3
The constitutional impeachment process can only be imagined as a “coup” in the mind of a despot – and in the minds of those who would welcome a despotic leader.
1
Terrifying.
Yes there is an obvious answer...2024
Why leave when its rent free, the security is better than Obama's ever was, the perks are over the top (limos and planes and food), and you are in a position to grift on a scale he and his coterie of family and friends never dreamed possible?
3
Well the problem is not WHAT the military will do, but IF the military needs to do something. At that point we lost it anyway.
If the Republicans reject democracy, the Union was an illusion. Since Trump won I realized that this can be the case. Once the government of the Union controlled the rebels, but now the rebels hold the Executive power. Many times the federal system buffered against disunion, but now lacking a terrifying enemy abroad, the internal pressure increased and we are back to bleeding.
I do not like the junction, but I prefer to solve it than to hide from it. And hopefully this can be done through peaceful and political means. It cannot be that psychopathic conman like Trump drag us all into a civil war. But if he does, was he the problem?
2
A Christian Fascist Movement in our midst. Realize it, and accept it, to understand the threat we face. This is no time to stick the head in the sand.
Hitler's lawyers came to the US in the 1930-ies to study racial segregation laws. This was before Hitler decided that killing the Jews would be a more decisive solution, he was still considering an apartheid Germany, or expulsion. This is the actual, not so distant, past of the United States of America, viewed without rose glasses.
The turn to democracy, human rights, diversity was, to a large degree, an accident triggered by Pearl Harbor, which caused the US to join forces with democracies, against fascism. Cold War was an extension of WW2, and hence the US became a reluctant shining city on the hill, forced to improve it's own, domestic human rights record, or face growing cognitive dissonance undermining the central message of the Cold War.
This stimulus is over. The fight for the soul of America resumes, with no outside help. The US could have gone by the way of Argentina in the XXth century, and may still go that way in the XXI-st.
5
I'd like to think that Mr Frey's scenario wins out over time. I am a white Baby Boomer who grew up on the edges of the inner city. My neighborhood was white and working poor but with a healthy mix of Italians, Polish, Greek, Irish, Catholics and Protestants. Blacks lived to the north of us, Mexicans to the southwest, and better off whites to the east and southeast which was already a white flight section of town. I went to a racially mixed JHS as well as a racially mixed HS. I then became a paratrooper assigned to a platoon in an infantry battalion that was full of diversity to include blacks, Native Americans, Mexican Americans, whites and a Puerto Rican. I was a L.A. Unified elementary school teacher in Watts for 7 years during the 80s and a bilingual ES teacher in an Austin, TX barrio for just short of 30 years, too. I studied Spanish in Mexico and married a Mexican woman while there. My children possess DNA (a la Ancestry.com) indigenous (First Peoples, Native Americans, indios o indigenas in Mexico ) to this hemisphere. I have known any number of social workers, teachers, librarians, health care workers, etc., all white, that fit this profile but never have heard of us being identified as such. Or the other grouping I belong to: whites who have grown up with minorities and/or have mixed with them on a regular basis at work. What percentage are we?
Two reasons why Trump is not the equal of Hitler: 1. He doesn't have the brains, and 2. He doesn't have the guts. He relies heavily on stooges and patsies to do his dirty work and hovers as above, essaying to retain the moral high ground. I believe that our military, though mostly red-blood conservative, will remain loyal to our Constitution and way of life. They always have, save for some out-lier exceptions early in our history, like Gen'l James Wilkinson, a real stinker. I don't fear them. They will not intervene on either side, left or right. Certainly not risk their careers for a cardboard booby like Donal Trump.
2
(cont)
- Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism -
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Dr. Lawrence Britt
2
Trump is building "his army" to secure his rule over our country!
He speaks of his gun-toting followers and instills fear by pounding the lie of how Democrats will take away their guns.
He speaks of how the country's "Armed Forces" are "with him"!
Trump has hijacked our Justice Department to work on his 2020 election campaign by means of secret dealings with foreign governments to secure "dirt" on potential political rivals.
He has also recruited our State Department to go back to the 2016 election and have them debunk the unanimous conclusions, as found by all of our intelligence agencies - where they are positive that Russia interfered with the election - and - in doing so - is working to vindicate Russia from any harm doing.
Trump is painting the Whistle-Blower as a Spy and wants their rightful protections stripped away so his gang of thugs can intimidate them.
He speaks of Adam Schiff with words of Treason - as Schiff leads to legal attack against our rouge president.
Not to leave it alone - Trump reminds us how treason is punishable by death !
Trump is calling the pending impeachment process an attempt of a; Coup D'tat and further warns that persisting with this will lead to a Civil War.
Trump praises and sucks up to murderous dictators as he turns his back on our allies.
If there is a "fair election" in 2020 - which is very much in doubt - Trump will never "gracefully" accept any result where he loses -
Yes - It will be required to physically drag him out !
1
It doesn't matter what he thinks. If he loses the election (assuming he makes it that far), at noon on January 20, 2021, the new President will automatically become President, and trump no longer will have that title. The oath by the elected is merely a formality, trump doesn't remain in office no matter where he is, or where the elected is. After noon, if he's still there, White House police will escort him from the grounds, he will be a trespasser, a private citizen.
My guess is, he won't show for the inauguration.
I lived and worked in Caracas, Venezuela from 2006 to 2010, the final years of the presidency of Hugo Chavez. What the author of this article describes is right out of Chavez' playbook. El Presidente made sure that his supporters were well armed and warned that he and his minions were ready to "defend the revolution" with any and all means necessary. He also made sure that the military was well taken care of, and that they, too, would support him, even if he were voted out of office. Chavez, like Trump, called for the arrest of political opponents, calling their opposition "treason". Chavez, like Trump, called the non-government run media the "enemy of the people" and sought to persecute media sources that were critical of his regime. Chavez, like Trump, attempted to turn the Venezuelan equivalent of our Supreme Court into just another branch of his dictatorship. We as a country are entering a dangerous new era, make no mistake about it. Trump is not a would-be dictator, he is a full-fledged caudillo, and the Republican Party members are his "Chavistas". If you want to see what might be in store for our country, take a look at what has happened in Venezuela the past few years under the regime of Nicolas Maduro Moros.
5
@The Dude
It's a sobering thought that our military is what will keep us from falling into complete corruption.
I paid attention to everything former Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis did while he was part of the Trump administration.
If one tenth of our military is comprised of people like him, we're safe from Donald Trump, no worries.
1
I agree with nearly nil of Edsall's essays, but I do appreciate his selection of snippets from thought leaders across the ballpark. I subscribe to The Times for the best arguments hiding where I would never think to look: near the opposite foul pole.
1
There remains a key connection between Trump voters and the US military --- and it isn't White Nationalism. It's religion. A proportion of Christians who control both power blocks do not believe in racial superiority so much as the Book of Revelation. In their worldview Trump's ever erratic moment is guided by God and these are the End Times. I understand some readers may find this bizarre, but ask yourselves: "How many Colonals have I met in my lifetime? How many Evangelicals have I sat down with for lengthy conversation? How many people do I personally know who own 50 assault rifles?" My guess is not many because they avoid worldly people by design.
4
Will Trump ever leave the WH? A fond wish of many on the left and perhaps some on the right before he was even elected. Mr. Edsell, you may be looking through a glass darkly or a preconceived prism. However, reality speaks at a base level in this country and I feel it is incumbent upon people like you who steer the word of the day and influence many with a somewhat bias opinion, instead of the raw reality of what life in the back alleys, the slums, the people of the midwestern plains, the sweltering South and the desert Southwest really think. Trump himself, may want to leave the WH, but the common man won't let him and his ego is fed daily by this very fact. He has a connection/bond so deeply seeded with millions. Corporate America is making tons of money under his watch. I did not vote for Trump or Hillary; both were not worthy in my view, but she was just hated more. Your scholar friend Leege may have some points, but he does not speak to the real people, most of his thoughts are stroking the minds of the learned and sophisticated of our society and not base enough for the people who toll to keep a roof over their head, more importantly they just don't trust much or anyone out of their realm of existence, so Trump is their hero. Goethe wrote, " As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live" Profound.. Lincoln knew this intimately. Frankly, many at the top of politics and in the media, have lost their way back to the real people and the Dems don't get it.
3
This is the single most terrifying op-ed that I have ever read.
5
As Trump descends into madness and given enough rope to do so he will be carted out of the White House in a straight jacket. And I’m not talking about a year from now. The man is seriously deranged at this point and the pressure and lack of serious allies he has made since office is alarmingly low. He will Tweet his way right out of the presidency because of his continued hatred toward mankind and his massive insecurity complex .
This article made for interesting “what if” reading but most Americans have had enough of this big baby Huey particularly the ones in a position of political power. The other GOP supporters who represent big business will find out the the majority of Patriotic Americans will simply stop buying their goods and services through protests and grass roots organizations. The typical lazy conspiracy theorist, the gun owning Republican vigilante and yes there are many, will go back to the shadows where they seem the most comfortable and just squawk because those folks like the birds and other animals dwindling on this earth are quickly going extinct.
6
" . . . . . . Since 2015, we have been worrying about how much danger Donald Trump posed to democracy. Now, with the impeachment inquiry moving forward, a new question is rapidly gaining relevance: How and when will President Trump leave the White House? . . . . . ."
Isn't that why all you American's have boatloads of guns? To protect your democracy from all enemies, foreign and domestic?
3
Removing Trump through impeachment has never been about Trump himself as obnoxious as he is. rather it is a question of abuse of power as any attempt to impeach a president should be. Trump is not America but a man sworn to protect the constitution.
Trump riles up his base by making the impeachment a persona thing that has nothing to do with his actions. That a group of people especially evangelicals who profess such a strong ethical and religious ideal should not see that they are being manipulated into giving up this ideal is crazy. trump has made this action personal and partisan in order to mask his behavior and that this might be the cause of violence is intolerable and the death of American democracy itself.
3
Trump will start a war with anyone he can and then he will try to suspend the election because we are at war. The GOP will follow right along because it benefits them financially and politically. And Pompeo and Barr will be front and center enabling him.
Whose sons and daughters will sacrifice their lives in order to please the fraud occupying the oval office? Yours. And while they are dying, he will be enriching himself and his cronies even more. Don't forget, divorce is expensive. Just ask Rudy Giuliani.
4
Mr. Edsall: What are you suggesting? Do you think we will live under an dictatorship from 2020?
Ok, I call baloney!
American's are not going to war with each other over a politician. You make the assumption that all gun owners are demented.
We Americans are too lazy and do not like bloodshed as much as people think we do, so you can stop worrying about the second amendment groups. The cops will take care of them.
As for the possibility of Trump not leaving office, even after defeat, that is baloney too. Why do you think we have Marines posted at the doors of the White House?
To keep unwelcome people out and to remove them if they are already inside.
4
If we add the third party votes to HRC's total we see that Fake Prez was outvoted by something like 7 or 8 million votes in 2016. Do we really think that gap will do anything but widen, that he has more supporters now? The electoral college won't save him this time. He and his playground bullies will be washed down the drain like so much dirty bathwater in 2020.
3
@Gibson Fenderstrat and if we add the third party votes to Trump's total we see that Hilary and the Democrats were decisively outvoted in the popular vote as well as in the Electoral College. Of course adding the third party votes to anyone other than the recipients of those votes is silly.
First thing we learned since Trump became president - he recognizes no boundaries (neither legal, moral, or ethical). Nor does he recognize constitutional limits on the power of the executive branch.
Second, we learned just how easy it has proven for our institutions to be corrupted. For example, Bill Barr quickly turned the Justice Department into the personal legal counsel for Trump. Worse, he has criminalized the JD by involving it in the cover up of Trump's shakedown of the Ukrainian president.
As bad as Jeff Sessions was in carrying out cruel Trump immigration policies, at least he maintained the JD's institutional integrity. Barr has no integrity. He, like other appointees of Trump, has subverted the institution's actual mission.
Third, we learned that Trump supporters are scary. Lilliana Mason notes,
"The Republican Party has been the party of white Christians for a while now. What Trump did was to remind white voters that they should feel victimized and aggrieved."
Aggrieved white Christians are unpredictable. They show no genuine Christian values. Scary. Republicans in Congress show disdain for their constitutional responsibilities and their oath of office. Scary.
If it comes to keeping our republic or keeping Trump, Republicans may stick with him. Scary.
Walter Dellinger underscores how scary Fox is. "If Fox declared that Trump was the “real winner” [of the 2020 elections] all bets would be off." Scary.
Will Trump ever leave the WH? We should be scared.
4
I can only hope that if Trump tries this, the people of this country will follow those of Hong Kong. The critical wound to our democracy would be too terrible to tolerate.
2
I feel as we have effectively been living in an alcoholic or otherwise dysfunctional household as a nation for the past three years (with the foundations laid by the GOP and Fox, of course).
The way out is, partly, to recognize that Trump's power comes from our pretending his narcissism is based on something reasonable or real and continuing to engage with it as such; i.e., we are also insane for keeping the game going. This includes catastrophizing about his threats of civil war (depraved and disgusting they are).
Once we take our own sanity back, he and his sycophants will be left with nothing. The impeachment inquiry is a strong step in this direction. Keep pursuing the truth and do not relent.
3
Trump no doubt is a racist of the worst order. A racist who is preparing and indirectly inciting his racist base to violence in his name. These people do not make up a majority of the nation and I doubt they represent even a majority of whites. If push comes to shove it is doubtful that the larger percentage of them would actually rise and take physical action against their fellow Americans.
The reality is that most of the extremists don't have a clue what true oppression looks like. I suggest they take a close look at inner city minority neighborhoods and consider how in reality they compare.
In light of these realities it can be very safely implied that at least a portion of the so called moral majority is anything but.
2
Jeez, I thought only the most right wing people engaged in this kind of fantasy.
Understand that Trump is an old coward at heart and a pampered one at that. If he precipitated what is described here all of his comforts would disappear in a flash of scorched earth lawless chaos. His lackey enablers know this is true as well. Fox News is a corporation and what will corporations do when there are no laws? What will any of us do?
Sorry, not buying it. Everyone in this paper boat has too much to lose.
2
This article reinforces my opinion that the DEMs are supporting the wrong people. I believe some people who find Trump unfit will vote for him in 2020 rather than a hard left socialist. The word socialist scares the pants off many people and Warren and Sanders are socialists. The DEMs really need to back middle of the road people like Amy Klobuchar, Pete Buttigieg or Tulsi Gabbard.
2
I have read a bunch of the comments in this thread and what struck me is the lack of imagination of what could go wrong the day after Tin-pot Trump loses the election.
The worse possible thing one can do is underestimate their enemies and yes many Trump supporters are enemies of liberal democracy and real representative government - doesn’t anyone hear them on CSPAN, etc advocating for his permanence?
A complete and total murder of the entirety of congress and the subsequent martial law that follows would be just what the President and his conned supporters could accomplish with ease.
There’s a reason they want those assault rifles and it ain’t good.
2
The only way he will be removed, whether he wins an election or not, is through physical force. That's what people have failed to see for three years and will see through this impeachment process. Trump exists in a world in which where there are no laws -- it's a jungle out there, and the biggest lion is the one who gets to eat.
2
As of just yesterday, Trump accused not only the whistle-blower, but also Chairman Schiff of treason in his never-ending twitter storm, putting both their lives in danger in this gun-crazy country were someone might want to do a favour for "The Chosen One".
At the end of the day, he accused that the whole impeachment inquire is - with his finger 'locked and loaded' on the cap locks - of a COUP.
Everyone else would be carried out in a straight jacket when making such threats against others and transported to a closed facility.
How come that the vast majority of Republicans in Congress don't admit that this man is the greatest danger against the country, its people and the world, in the history of the US?
3
Criminal Trump will be gone by Halloween. Today his already-rapid descent into impeachment will gain velocity and become unstoppable.
1
Only time will tell. . . I would wager he's not going to walk out without some "encouragement."
1
“If I say do it, they’re going to do it. That’s what leadership is all about.”
“...it’s very funny. I actually think that the people on the right are tougher, but they don’t play it tougher. O.K.? I can tell you, I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump — I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad.”
This is the most chilling article I’ve read in the NYT, Trump refusing to leave office.
Furthermore, I can perfectly well see him commanding his well-armed, violent minions to overthrow this Country if he doesn’t get his way.
American Law Enforcement at all levels: Do not let this happen!
America is a country of laws! We are not a Banana Republic.
Do not let this narcissistic autocrat command his followers to overthrow America by force. They have a lot of guns. Most, I imagine, are automatic weapons!
Be prepared to defend this Country! Everyone!
1
If you want to defeat Trump, you can't take the high road. You have to get down in the dirt with him I think that any serious Dem candidate should start saying that Trump is the true enemy of the people and their democratic rights and keep pounding away at him day after day. He hates to be ridiculed and needs to be tagged with the types of names and possibly nicknames like he gives others. He tries to demean them and needs the same treatment to promote a meltdown. If you just come at him with ideas, he'll blow right through you since he doesn't understand them and can't debate them.
2
Trump is behaving in a manner with is in complete accord with what Steve Bannon said prior to the 3026 election:
" I want to bring everything crashing down, and destroy all of today's establishment."
And "Crash it Down" - Trump did and continues to do!
Donald Trump disrupts and destroys every avenue of our "Checks and Balances" whenever he can and there appears to be nothing stopping him.
Those on the White House staff and Cabinet who were attempting to educate Trump on how our government works have all been banished from their positions.
We know that Trump idealizes cruel dictators and seeks their friendship in the face of turning his "and our" backs on our long-term allies.
From Trump we here notions of Civil War - Spies - and Treason about "anyone" who defies him . . .
Especially our Congress - who Trump views as his mortal enemy and as enemies of "his" America.
Acting in the most corrupt manner, he paints himself as an American Hero, saving his followers from the evil Democrats who will take away their guns and turn us into "Socialists" !
No, Trump will most definitely never "Go gently into that good night" (Dylan Thomas).
Even when convicted of multiple; 'High Crimes and Misdemeanors" -
Trump will call all of it "Rigged" against him - as he has claimed since the 2016 election, where he stated he would not accept the election results if he lost and called the system "Rigged against him" !
Yes - it was Rigged - by the Russians - in your favor !
3
Trump is a symptom, not the disease. He depends upon McConnell in the Senate, the lackeys of the GOP, his “core” of believers in alternative facts, conspiracies, and Fox News. And all of these exist because of funding from a bilious cabal of billionaires out to dismantle democracy and install themselves as Oligarchs.
3
Republicans stopped believing in democracy some time ago so this is definitely possible.
The only thing that might save us is that Trump would probably get bored in the White House and at some point leave to play golf at which point they could lock him out.
1
I think he won't leave. Even if re-elected for a second term. He looks up to the dictators-for-life, (Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin). He thinks he's one of them, better than them. "Why can't I be president for life like those guys?"
1
Sadly we need John McCain, a senior republican senator who will say enough.
2
Why on Earth is Charles Murray still a thing?
3
Cadet Bone Spurs talks a big game of macho but like John Wayne who had the image of winning WW2 he actually did it with a bottle of ketchup and never served as Trump never did.
I'm sure two women federal marshals will easily remove Trump from the Oval Office as I recall his terror when an American Bald Eagle was on his desk and it moved he was terrified of a bird. Trump calling out his fanatical fans may fall flat as these guys have no desire to go to prison as white men do not rule prisons.
2
He will be carried out of the White House on a wood rail by a delegation of Democrats led by Mrs. Pelosi.
4
Too bad to see that you've finally been driven totally nuts by Don Trump. Sorry, any one can piece together a bunch of quotes from a bunch of professors to prove anything. This country is not full of racists. Mr. Trump's appeal is more complex than that. By the way, Hilary Clinton won the popular vote by three million votes. Much of your analysis here explains why a majority of the US electorate voted for Don Trump. But they didn't. Also, by the way, the Democrats gained 40 seats in the House in 2018. So I guess a bunch of the 2016 racists stopped being racists in 2018.
So, Democrats, the most important thing you can do now is to nominate a candidate that most of the country can vote for without holding their noses.
The Democratic debates thus far have done more to damage that prospect than anything else. Progressives who live in the ideological bubbles of places like New York City need to understand that their preferred policies alarm the majority, e.g. when fools like the New York City council vote a $250,000 fine for calling someone an "illegal alien" no matter how accurate the term may be (clearly unconstitutional under the first amendment). That Orwellian nonsense terrifies moderates and independents every bit as much as the would-be Trump militias terrify progressives.
So, stop with the leftist rhetoric, and stop calling "evil" everyone to the right of you politically, which is most of us. We do not appreciate that characterization, no matter how virtuous it makes you feel. Put a lid on Rashida Tlaib, et. al. Do not misinterpret this as a moment for progressives to grab power. It will not fly, now, or any time in the foreseeable future.
Our democracy may depend on a large, solid, uncontestable win for the Democratic candidate next year. Find someone in the middle who can speak to ALL or at least most Americans and represent their interests as THEY understand them. Stop telling them how stupid they are and how they are voting against their own interests. Listen to them!
That is our only hope for the peaceful transfer of power.
3
No he will not. Business will see the stability of an authoritarian regime and back him. Republicans will see that no more elections means permanent power, their goal all along. The military will know Trump is a coward and they will own him for their needs.
The only way out is to offer Trump some billions and assurance he will not be prosecuted. He will then sell anyone down the river.
Yes. It may mean the people drag him out. But he will be removed.
2
The violence is not a product of Trump. The violence is a product of Trumpublican radio/TV/FB/Internet. They incite killings for ratings, and we will have laws, after a few dozen are killed upon orange demagogs's forced removal.
2
I'm not even convinced he would walk away on January 20, 2025.
1
If he can wrangle full immunity from all his crimes and I think he'd be out of there like a shot.
However, we really should consider boarding up all possible White House exits if he insists on staying.
3
A simple observation about this article, the words "blacks, whites, and race" appear14 times. The word "class" does not appear once. I'll leave interpretation about that fact up to the readers.
2
It is going to get way worse before it gets any better.
trump's goal is to get Americans to physically defend him.
Putin will finally give trump building permits in Moscow, Kyiv, and Yalta when that happens.
The Russian criminal enterprise is bringing America down without firing a shot because of Right-Wing, Fascist Trump Sympathizers.
Discredit and render the great Law Enforcement Agencies of the world toothless and there will be no need for war over things as inconsequential as the American Constitution.
The thugs will have won.
Survival of the fittest and criminal intentions will prevail.
I would say Republicans need to think very carefully about what they are doing, but I think that's how we got here.
2
When Trump's time is up whether by impeachment, election defeat, or expiry of his term he will go because he is a coward. America may be armed to the teeth, but most gun owners are not about to start a civil war. The man is a scourge and a bully. But that is about all.
1
These analyses of Trump base motivations are needlessly complex. By and large, Trump voters are White Americans who get a spiteful rush out of his constant trolling.
The situation is nothing short of astounding. Trump is so obviously, transparently incompetent, and so obviously willing to ravage the country and beyond for purely personal reasons, yet 50 million Americans support him. Like all narcissists, he propagates an alternate reality placing himself at the center of everything. Somehow, despite how patently obvious the entire charade is, 50 million voters, White House staff and Republican politicians are completely enthralled by it. I simply cannot understand how this pathetically deficient man can con so many people. It's like a bad dream.
2
The idea that Trump supporters are a violent threat to our nation is laughable. They are a minority of people whose success was based on white privilege and who do not have the chops to compete in the global reality, people that are unhappy resentful and take no responsibility for their place in life. Trump supporters are all kinds of old and unhealthy. There are young supporters with guns and illusions of toughness, but they are simply deluded. The vast majority of Trump supporters talk loud but don't have the discipline to see a real fight like that through. The real threat are the wealthy oligarchs that are beholden to no party. They are the ones that are keeping Trump in office as McConnells clown, distracting everyone from their outright theft of everything this nation holds dear. And they relish keeping everyone angry at each other - makes it easier for them to take it all.
1
I am certain that in the 13 months before the election, this ignorant man as 'Morning Joe" describes him will initiate, provoke or something equally as heinous will come to light that has already occurred. As a result, even the majority of Republicans would not be able to support any longer.
In addition, this ignorant man as "Morning Joe" calls him is so hated by so many that even the Secret Service or military would no longer tolerate him and would not support him.
Maybe it's time to split the country into two.
1
Once Trump is a private citizen, will Twitter have the authority, and spine, to cut him off?
3
Despite that, Murray continued, “it is also quite possible that I will find myself voting for him next year.” The conservative scholar said he approves of many of the things that have happened during the Trump years — especially “the judges he has appointed and the steps to roll back stupid and obstructive regulations.
So, making sure we have rightwing fundamentalists on the bench and no check on harmful corporate externalities "Trumps" sane, nonmalignant governance, eh? This is essentially a pseudo-eloquent way of saying, "but Hillary's emails...."
3
Of course Trump will leave the office of the presidency; he is actually trampling on it, with limited success as he still finds some "awfully democratic" constraints to his unhinged, and unscrupulous, behavior in selling the country to the highest bidder (foreign or not), and always with an eye on self-enrichment. Other than watching TV (Fox Noise) all day, all he is willing to do is try to tarnish the image of anybody who puts his/her finger on the purulent wound he carries in his soul. Can't you see how incompetent he is...while a shrewd demagogue in his dealings to abuse his power? This bully has his days in the White House counted in single digits...provided we have the will to hold him to account.
1
In no way has Trump earned the right to expect to be the Republican nominee in the 2020 election. Indeed, the party would be shooting itself in the foot to nominate this buffoon. The man has made us a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. There isn't a country's leader that will enter any agreement with someone who has walked away from so many already.
2
If there is a coup, count on the prosperous stats such as New York, California , Washington, Oregon, New England states, moderately conservative but otherwise sensible Mid-western states to secede to form their own country. Possibly Texas (almost blue) and New Mexico may join them too. Let the arc of red states from Virginia to Florida and Louisiana the regressive and impoverished states wallow in their love of Trump and the Republican party and live in a second rate country called the LSA - the Loser States of American .
3
This is a good and troubling essay by Thomas Edsall.
What it lacks is a recognition that Democrats have been wrong on important issues. There are two orthodoxies, Republican and Democratic, and often both are wrong.
As Trump has pushed the country ever more in the direction of hyper-partisanship, those whose views differ from both orthodoxies are left unrepresented by the political process.
An example is global warming. While Republicans often doubt that global warming is even occurring, Democrats take an even worse political position. They seem to argue that it is "racism" to oppose any restriction on immigration.
This reflects a denial of what should be an obvious fact: Global warming is predominantly due to population growth.
World population has approximately doubled since 1972. That makes for a doubling of emissions causing global warming, other things equal.
In Guatemala, the population has quadrupled since 1960. This is the reason for the huge number of refugees from Guatemala.
But the NY Times avoids reporting on the raw population numbers. Indeed, those numbers make it clear that admitting all refugees from Guatemala, and other Latin American countries, is unsustainable in the long run.
During a recent Democratic debate, all the Democratic candidates supported giving health care to all illegal immigrants.
This displays innumeracy, driven by slanted reporting from the NY Times.
Why does the NY Times censor discussion of population growth?
3
@Jake Wagner
I don't know where people get this idea that Democrats think opposition to immigration is 'racist.'
We just want people to be treated decently. We have laws and procedures for taking in refugees and granting asylum.
A lot of illegal aliens are here because businesses give them jobs. There's no excuse for this--e-Verify has been around for a long while. Businesses just like to exploit their cheap illegal labor. If these people get sick, what would you have Democrats do, not treat them? I'm sure most Republicans would say yeah, let them croak.
The reason the NYT doesn't talk about population growth is because there's not much that can be done about it. In our own country, Republicans would like nothing better than to eliminate birth control as well as abortions.
I'd love it if, globally, every head of state would encourage their population to have no more than replacement children. Do you seriously think this is ever going to happen? Religion dominates too many cultures, Catholicism being a pretty dominant force and they oppose all forms of birth control.
Until we can get the Pope on board with family planning, and the Republicans to abandon their assault on it as well, I don't see what is gained by blaming Democrats.
1
Charles Murray’s quotes go the very essence of the Trump 2020 narrative: “You might loath me, but you must fear them.”
3
This piece is useful in that it should deny right wing crank Charles Murray from ever being held up as a serious scholar or social scientist again.
if trump is a malignant tumor on the nation, which he is, tham the very cause that Murray cites in his favor (sigh, judicial appointments and deregulation, the ramifications of will be damaging our children long after Murray has shuffled off) - then Murray and his fellow conservatives are the carcinogenic accelerant, and....and he continues to willingly state his "reluctant" support for cancer.
We traced the malignancy, Charles. it's comong from your house!
4
The Constitution is very clear on when the old president is to leave office. And, with a new president the armed forces will follow that president's orders. So, the Electoral votes will be cast in Dec, and in Jan a new president will take office, and Trump will be homeless, as far as living in the White House. I'd love to see him sitting on the curb in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. That would be a hoot!!! I could just see Trump, sitting on the curb, elbows resting on his knees, trying to Tweet, and receiving a Tweet from Twitter: Sorry, but your Twitter account has just be deactivated. Now, that's a scene a lot of people would like to see.
2
A fanciful opinion piece, perhaps bordering on the improbable.
But then... Trump borders on the unbelievable. No, that's too mild. He's a narcistic psychopath, and his words and actions are firmly in the unbelievable category. He's a cheat, a con, and a crook.
But not even he would go so far as to stage armed insurrection. Even the sycophants on his staff and in the senate wouldn't stand for it.
So much for fantasy. Here's a certainty: he needs to be evicted from public housing, and from office.
1
Not unless he's is forced out with an armed escort. I'm actually kinda looking forward to that. Maybe he'll try to make a break for it, and you know what usually happens, then. Ask questions, later...
2
Trump always have had a dictatorial and fascist tendencies. If people think that a coup and a right-wing fascist government will be in their best interest, they are mistaken. Republicans should not forget that they are the party of privilege and money. This power comes from the political stability and democracy. Even Russia and China had smart people but it has always been their political system that stymied their economic prosperity. In case of a coup, people will stop investing in the US, bright people will not migrate for bright future and the stock market will tank. Republicans have lot more to lose than any other group of people. Too bad that they are willing to lose their prosperity and tranquil enclaves for a corrupt criminal as if he is the Second Coming of Christ.
1
Donald Trump will leave the White House, when he's good and ready or when the Pentagon instead of obeying his orders sends Special Ops team to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with a straight jacket or two.
2
Donald Trump wants a second Civil War. If he loses the 2020 election, or is convicted after impeachment, then he wants his supporters to burn the Constitution and overthrow the United States government.
How is that not Treason?
3
Funny for the left—who have never accepted the democratic outcome in 2016 and have been seeking to impeach and remove the democratically elected President since then, to wring their hands over whether Trump will leave office. It is only because too many of them have worked themselves up into an emotional frenzy and created a straw man with deplorable, fascist followers. But like Russian collusion, it is a fantasy that exists only in the minds of true believers on the left. What they should worry about is how the next Democrat president and his family will be treated given the precedent they have set with Mr Trump. They have opened Pandora’s Box and you can expect vicious and relentless attacks on whoever is President for a very long time to come.
2
Trump will never leave Mar- a- Lago nor Bedminster nor any Trump Tower.
Jimmy and Dolly Madison left the White House in a heated rush.
Dotard and Malignant Trump will do likewise if properly motivated.
3
Oh please! Stop with the alarmist essays. It just amuses his base and makes the media look ridiculous. I am sure Trump would like to stay in power but it is unlikely he would be able to do so and right now there isn’t a lot anyone can do except vote. I find Trump repugnant and at first enjoyed seeing my opinions mirrored in the media but at this point it is repetitive and counter productive to keep feeding his base a diet of amusing liberal hyperbole and outrage.
An alternative to war is the liberal states pulling out of the Union.
2
Thomas Edsall always presents very thoughtful and insightful articles on American politics. If I could go back 40 years and take a college poly sci class again, I'd be delighted to have him as a professor.
1
Sure, but only on a Stretcher and very heavily Medicated.
Seriously.
3
“Sic semper tyrannis,” to quote John Wilkes Booth, as he fired the shot that ended Abraham Lincoln’s life.
Thus always to tyrants. Donald Trump is leading an ego cult, and his extremist supporters are not patriots; they’re nationalists. They’d turn on each other as soon as they’d turn on their purported enemies.
1
I'm so tired of everyone running scared of this dope of a president. If there was ever a fighter with a glass jaw it's this rube. Stop telling each other scary ghost stories, turn on the lights and get on with it. Hit him hard with Reality. Once the Trump fantasy starts to crumble big time, people will abandon ship.
1
Or to say it in far fewer words, ignorance and paranoia are going to be a problem, particularly among the ignorant and paranoid.
2
Yes--though--he might have to be led out in handcuffs, a straight jacket, or both.
1
Whether in handcuffs or in a straitjacket, it must happen before the election. Allons, citoyens -- call your elected representatives in the House and Senate every single day, and demand justice.
Just the opposite. It was the Clintons who trashed the White House prior to the Bushes moving in, remember? And Hillary who refused to concede and who has spent the past three years yowling that the election was illegitimate.
2
If Trump is ejected from office and trumpsters rise up in armed insurrection, they will capture places like Idaho and Alabama. If Trump refuses to leave after he is convicted in an impeachment or loses the 2020 election, and antitrumsters rise up in mass sit-ins and other largely nonviolent protests, they will capture or disable major metropolitan areas (as we see now in Hong Kong).
The country and the world economy can survive without Idaho and Alabama, but not without Silicon Valley or the east coast megacity that stretches from Boston to DC. They can survive without rural Texas but not without Houston-Dallas-Austin-San Antonio.
Before the 2016 election, Democrats ominously warned that Trump may not accept the election results if he lost.
Ironically, after the 2016 election, it has been the Democrats themselves who didn’t accept the election results, beginning immediately with multiple efforts to impeach him even before he was inaugurated. Hillary now says that he is not a “legitimate” president.
Why are Democrats de-legitimizing not only the electoral process, but the millions of people who voted for Trump?
When will Democrats finally accept Trump’s legitimacy and simply try to beat him at the ballot box?
Democrats have worked themselves into a hysteria, just as the liberal media and Democratic leaders want. Please, just calm down.
Focus on beating Trump in 2020. That’s how our democracy works.
And if Trump wins in 2020, just accept the results. That’s also how our democracy works.
4
Let us take the long view. Suppose that Trump and his base do that. In effect the Constitution is cancelled to the detriment of our people, and they will have a dictatorship for a few years. What next? We eventually get a new Constitution with no Electoral College, no two Senators per state, which makes 17% of the population elect have the Senate, and maybe something more reasonable to replace the Second Amendment. Maybe there is a silver lining!
A loaded question, Edsall warns us, "Will Trump Ever Leave the White House?" "Ever" is a key word. I am one of those whose comment asserted that he won't give up the Presidency. My opinion is based on his sociopathy. He breaks the law freely to do and keep what he wants. But what about "ever?" I believe that either the Congress or the military will force him to leave, to leave the building and return to NYC or elsewhere. I disagree with those who see the military protecting him. He may be popular with the rank and file but he is distinctly unpopular among most the officer corps which values behavior of which he is incapable. So, yes, Trump will leave the White House. Of course this scenario leaves us with a mess, a nation fractured by his divisiveness and uncertainty if we can come together to clean it up.
2
A significant number of comments here write off this concern as hysterical and even irresponsible. Meanwhile, the president of the United States is using the words “civil war” and “coup”, refers to his “second amendment friends” and tweeted a “Trump 2024” logo. It’s irresponsible to be so dismissive of the concern.
330
@Dsr80304
Will you people please get ahold of yourselves.
I am in the middle of a 4000 mile road trip from North Carolina to Colorado to Arizona and back.
I see incredible numbers of young families everywhere. I do not for a minute believe or accept that this vast population of young parents (with tough, tatted Dads) are going to put up with this violent fantasy nonsense for even one minute.
They have made a decision for a brighter, better future and this ranting is so obsolete, you might as well fight with sticks. So get with the program.
We are a strong Nation of laws and behavior that cannot be undone by one maniac. Our idea and reality of Government is well equipped to maintain.
Have some courage and strength my friends,
that is our ultimate advantage.
19
Is Charles Murray paying attention? It's not about "vastly superior policies", it's about repression, climate denial and lawbreaking. By the way--"Hobson's Choice" is no choice, take it or leave it. Murray has a choice.
This is a ridiculous, if not irresponsible column. Congress and the Supreme Court would insist Trump step down after either an impeachment conviction or an electoral defeat. And the U.S. military is not going to act like the army of a banana republic and side with a trump.
85
@mw I don’t know. I agree with you that Congress and the military would not get involved, but the Supreme Court would. They already did once.
20
@mw
Are you really sure about that? From what I've seen Trump and the GOP are projecting when they say the Democrats are staging a coup. It is the GOP who are staging a coup, while doing a bang-up job of gas lighting their supporters into believing the problem is with the Democrats.
38
@mw
Have you ever read Edsall before. He is definitely not prone to hyperbole, and always backs his ideas with solid sources. If this is what Edsall is talking about it is time to be alarmed.
While the US military might not help Trump to overstay his welcome what do we do with the millions of armed white conservative americans when they riot?
I am deeply concerned.
32
I'm a bit worried about changing demographics, too, because I'm realistic about the way people think and act. Let me try to explain. If you look at our thought leaders, they invariably say things like, "America's tepid attempts at racial and social justice have always been met with a backlash. That's what we're seeing today."
So, if a politician proposes legislation to hasten intellectuals' definition of justice, and that legislation is simply bad policy, opposition will nonetheless be portrayed as racist. Not wishing to be portrayed this way, terrified white liberals will support it. And this is a road I have no desire to travel down.
Another (random) example of what I fear: If you say to a leftist Ottoman historian that the absence of quarantine during bubonic plague outbreaks was a sign that Europe was more enlightened, or more concerned with human life, he or she will immediately claim that this is an "orientalist" or Eurocentric interpretation -- and that we must reject this kind of analysis, etc.
White-oppressor historical narratives are taken for granted in academia. But in truth there's so much about the West that we should cherish, and there's nothing racist about recognizing the uniqueness of its accomplishments. I'm worried about leftist historical narratives dominating minority discourse, then being used to advance truly awful policies.
Let's get rid of Trump, yes, but not replace him with a leftist version of himself. I don't want a Chavez in the Oval Office.
I look forward to articles written by Thomas Edsall, but now this is it: Democrats have gone wild in their thoughts and there is no evidence that Trump will NOT leave the White House when he is no longer President.
Democrats have had this thinking since before the 2016 election; seems that it is Hillary Clinton who refuses to leave.
Democrats are becoming scary; that's why I left the party after 50 years of being a Democrat.
2
Clearly, the anti-Trump crowd doesn't think it can beat him in 2020. There is literally no other explanation for this constant drumbeat of hysteria: he shouldn't be allowed to run!, he won't leave if he loses! When will you guys realize that you are losing moderates with all this pearl clutching, sky is falling, madness?
40
@MJG , I'm a right of center, former Republican, mostly pro 2nd amendment, mostly want to stop so much illegal immigration, and I think The Donald is completely unfit for office. Based on The Donald's own statements, it is my concern that he will turn the country upside down in order to stay in office, whether he is impeached or loses the election. Sometimes I wonder if some of my Trump supporter friends would turn against me since I so openly disparage The Donald's misgoverning.
43
@MJG No one can predict what will happen with any assurance. But if you see this massive wave of fear and foreboding as madness--and it may indeed turn out to be flat-out wrong--then look no further than where it all originated: with an out-and-out madman as president. What you are witnessing and have such disregard, even outright contempt, for is one extreme of a rational attempt to understand the irrational.
19
@MJG
Guess again MUG. Thomas Edsall is no Democrat. The sound you hear is a sensible moderate conservative in your midst trying to make sense of your party's descent into utter insanity.
29
If we're in danger of Trump refusing to leave office when he's supposed to, what difference does it make if:
1) Trump refuses to leave in 2024, if he's re-elected? Or
2) Trump refuses to leave in 2020, if he' not re-elected? Or
3) Trump refuses to leave if he's impeached, at any time?
In each and every case, Trump refusing to leave will present a dangerous situation. How dangerous will depend on what his partisans might do to try and keep him in office. But impeachment does not present a greater danger than either Trump being defeated in 2020, or Trump running out his Constitutional term limits in 2024.
The greatest danger however, is not Trump possibly refusing to leave. The greatest danger is Trump being in office now, and every day after today that Trump remains in office "legitimately."
1
Sorry, but this is indeed paranoia of the highest order. The second our frustrated child king of a President either gets convicted or loses a close election and then rudely refuses to leave - the one thing that unites all Americans, the stock market, will go down so deeply south it will make the market chaos of 2008 look like a stroll in the park. Think 50% of a contraction. Maybe more. People will not go penniless over this guy. Military rank and file have 401K's too. I think we all should take a pill and relax.
The political situation is due to the lack of public education and the low level of knowledge in US colleges.
Americans are educated in a civil religion that veered to mysticism instead of the concept invented by Jean Jacques Rousseau.
3
So Charles Murray is OK with a president who does Putin's bidding, as opposed to...
What? Universal health insurance?
If it's that system-wide, ill-defined bogeyman "socialism," then he's not worried about the spreading undermining of our Constitution that's already going on?
3
Virtually the only way I see Trump not being re-elected in 2020 is if he is impeached and removed by Congress. He has the money, he has a TV station, he has Facebook, he has legal gerrymandering (thanks to the Supreme Court), he has the Electoral College vote advantage weighing rural states heavier than more urban states, and he has the help of the Russians. Regarding the latter, the Senate Majority Leader has refused to take up legislation to protect our elections at least in part involving electronic voting machine, and we know that Russians tried to access that type of voting machine in a few states in 2016.
Trump won in 2016 by 70,000 votes in three states. He has, generally, the same level of support nationwide as he did on the day he was inaugurated. So all those factors above can work to influence (or maybe outright change) a proportionally small number of votes to ensure a Trump victory. And if the results are challenged by the Democrat nominee, Trump has the Supreme Court.
If the 2020 election is nasty (and it will be) and Trump wins but his opponent fights that and Trump wins the fight (as I believe he will), I expect Trump to try to change the rules for future Presidential elections to benefit him. How? I have no clue. But I cannot disregard his very open desire (masked as jokes) to never leave office or his campaign manager stating openly that the Trumps are trying to build a dynasty.
I know....crazy stuff. But scarier yet....it is all possible.
1
Very disturbing thought. If Trump could continue to rule while be defeated in the 2020 elect it would require the compliance of the Federal bureaucracy to stay on the job and obey Trump’s orders. A dreadful situation.
1
How will Trump hold on to power? Simple. He has complete control over the nuclear football. He will order the bombing of Iran a day before the 2020 election.
2
I'm so tired of lightweights like Charles Murray that the right has to settle for as their intellectual leading lights. The guy knows what Trump is, and he'd still vote for him over someone who wants people to have clean air and water, and maybe access to healthcare even if they're poor.
When we stop pretending any of these "conservatives" (who have no particular interest in the conservation of anything but their own wealth and power) have actual ideas beyond their own interests, we'll be getting somewhere. At some point, telling both sides of partisan stories probably made sense. At this point, the right has been using that tendency to manipulate the media into cynically portraying their bankrupt trickle down economic theory and win-at-all-costs nihilism as the "on the other hand" when Free-Spending Dems propose, for instance, raising more revenue to offset the giant deficits Fiscally-Responsible Republicans create virtually every time they're in power.
4
Wow! Some terrific detail and insights here. As a Democrat, there are three issues I'd like to see a lot more light on:
1) Why are we refusing, still, to view the results of the 2016 election as legitimate, legal, and Constitutional? It makes us look like the ones who would engage in armed revolt against the electorate. Why not focus on jobs, health, education, and a better leader, and win our own election?
2) What happened in Ukraine starting in 2008-09? Was or was not the CIA intensely involved in "regime change" in the Ukraine? How involved, and with what persons? All the present rumbles about Poroshenko, the Atlantic Council, Burisma, Biden Jr, and so on are like fluff on the ripples of a major wave that hit much, much earlier than 2016. How deeply is the US involved in Ukraine, or was involved in 2011-15? Putin did not re-annex Crimea out of a fit of pique. It was a strategic geopolitical decisionj, and it must have been in response to perceived American policy. What happened with the "reset," Hillary's involvement, and our policy after Hillary left State? These inter-tangled events need to be thoroughly researched and made coherent.
3) If the entire process of replacing Trump is left to be based on the complaints of unelected civil servants -- what some people see as America's permanent government -- are we still a democracy? If we don't vote Trump out at the polls, just how legitimate will our next president appear to be?
These are real concerns.
2
A lot to think about, but several major points were not addressed here.
First, it's hard to imagine that the Joint Chiefs, en masse, would allow a coup to take place under the leadership of an unstable crank.
Second, the Blue States are the financial engines of this country, possess the most and the largest military bases and seaports--including the largest naval fleets and the largest number of military reserve troops.
If such a scenario were to become reality, it is the Trump supporters themselves who would suffer the most.
Additionally, when Trump loses, the new president would be sworn in on the Capitol Building steps and then constitutionally takes full charge of the country. She/He can then appoint their own cabinet and Joints Chiefs. The mop-up might be calamitous but democracy would inevitably prevail.
4
"Will Trump Ever Leave the WH?"
Yes, in 2024. What's the problem?
37
@ss If you can't see it, you're part of it.
26
@ss
Just off the top of my head, I'd say THAT is the problem.
15
@ss
You bet: he's already hinted at a third term.
3
I retired last year after serving 23 years in the US military and see no evidence that President Trump "has" the military. While individuals have opinions, members of the US military take an oath to the Constitution, not the President. I was in command of a unit when Obama was elected - I changed the photo on the wall and went back to work. I was in command of a unit when Trump was elected - I changed the photo on the wall and went back to work. Trump literally has a military now but will stop having one the moment a constitutional process changes that situation.
8
Being a Secret Service agent these days must be hard, if you are a person with any sense. But the Secret Service is not just protecting Trump, they are also protecting our democracy.
It is their job to protect the President, until the next one is elected.
1
How ironic that Edsall attempts to label Trump as someone who would not accept the election results. Here we are, three years after the election, and no one on the left (least of all Hillary) has accepted the results of the election.
3
I thank Mr. Edsall for this very well-researched and well-written column!
In a future column, Mr. Edsall, maybe you could help us understand the ovation that Bernie Sanders received from the audience when he discussed Medicare-for-All at a town-hall meeting sponsored by Fox News back in April?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/04/15/audience_cheers_at_sanders_town_hall_after_fncs_bret_baier_asks_if_they_want_medicare_for_all.html
On the meat-and-potatoes issues like healthcare and jobs, the average Fox News viewer seems to support Bernie Sanders, am I right?
Many Republican voters seem to have almost a split personality: they are deeply conservative about the political-theater issues like white nationalism (which actually has very little direct impact on their lives), but they are almost socialist on issues like Medicare-for-All, which will directly impact their own wallets. Am I right?
5
I am not afraid of these people who are stating the there will be a "revolution" if Trump is impeached. As much as I find it upsetting that a criminal and a fraud was elected to the highest office in the land, I still believe in due process to remove him if he has violated his oath.
If these people believe in him so much, then let them use the ballot box to try and keep in him office. If they decide to use guns and violence to bypass the will of the people, then they are criminals and should be treated as such. Funny they believed in the system when it put him in office, but will not if they same system votes him out.
They put their faith in a man who is not deserving of such, and certainly really does not care about them.
4
Goodbye, American democracy. It was fun while it lasted. R.I.P.
2
I would be interested in a poll which asked Republicans if they would support an autocratic Trump presidency. It is not a stretch to think that White, evangelical Americans would choose a dictator over democracy, so long as the dictator seemed to protect their interests.
After all- the heart of evangelicalism is compulsion, not choice. People only tend to believe in freedom and democracy when they are part of the majority. Especially religious people.
3
Notwithstanding Trump’s total incompetence and speculations of civil war or other atrocities that he may instigate, Trump’s dictatorial tendencies have done this country a favor. He has singlehandedly exposed for all to see the weaknesses of our system of government.
Three equal branches of government? He has shown how easily the equal part can be destroyed.The judiciary by stacking the courts and appointing a compliant AG. Congress by ignoring its subpoenas without any consequences. The executive by appointing a no-nothing cabal of sycophants to do his bidding.
The Senate? He has awakened a movement that see the two-Senators-by-state rule to be unrepresentative of the country at large and undemocratic.
The Electoral College? He has demonstrated how antiquated and also undemocratic the electoral process is.
This is 2019. Not 1773. It is high time to start talking about modernizing our constitution instead of talking about civil war.
One nation or not? The “under God” part can stay if that helps reach a consensus.
5
@DJ
Couldn't agree more. I'd like to see the Democratic candidates start addressing this issue instead of trying to peddle their pie-in-the-sky freebies that won't happen any time soon. There is a lot of work to be done next year mopping up after the toddler. I want to see that addressed.
@DJ
Couldn't agree more. I'd like to see the Democratic candidates start addressing this issue instead of trying to peddle their pie-in-the-sky freebies that won't happen any time soon. There is a lot of work to be done next year mopping up after the toddler. I want to see that addressed.
Looking at the picture of the 2nd amendment protesters, I'm very afraid. Most of them would have heart attacks after the first 30 seconds in combat.
3
Lefthalfbach,
People may not have liked President Bush but not to the degree that they do President Trump. They loathe President Trump, they hate him and despise him. This hatred was evident on the day of his election. The media would not announce his win until hours later and reluctantly. Maxine Waters of California led the way to voice her support for impeachment. She kept shouting impeachment time after time. Others followed.
We have never before in our history seen anything like this to the degree of animosity towards our president. It just never stops. The people will never tolerate this impeachment inquiry for very long when nothing is getting done in congress. How can they do anything constructive when all they are doing is going after President Trump. They will pay the price in 2020 and lose the presidency and many seats. I guess it is worth it if you intensely dislike a president and his policies. So sad.
1
@KMW, the reason he was so loathed from day one is that he showed his true colors as a racist, divisive, self-serving con artist during the campaign. And Democrats, like rational adults, are capable of doing two things at once. They are currently busy passing legislation in the House, working for all Americans, but these bills aren’t seeing the light of day due to McConnell’s obstruction.
1
Articles speculating on Trump’s refusal to leave the White House are unnecessarily inflammatory.
First of all, Trump doesn’t even like being in the White House. If he has been charged with a crime, he can be arrested on the golf course.
Is it assumed that Trump will hunker down in the White House defended by US Marines? I’ve been in the military. It’s a very law and order, hierarchical organization that won’t look kindly on a dictator wannabe.
Further, Trump is obsessed with money. Cut off his supply and he’ll leave the White House in the blink of an eye. Nixon resigned in order to keep his presidential perks. Trump can’t exactly be having a good time with all of these investigations and lawsuits going on.
Republicans are to blame for this constitutional crisis because they facilitated our country’s decline on the proverbial slippery slope.
4
Will Trump leave the White House? Yes, he's mortal.
1
I have to agree with Prof. Mason. This is the final atonement for 400 years of white Christian murder and theft and the hypocrisy of the Founding Fathers statements about Freedom and the Rights of Man. My father says the pendulum always swings, but in the end demographics will win. That is the hopeful view.
That is unless China and Russia succeed in manipulating the extension of a period of American self destruction and reverence for a series of authoritarian ethnic nationalist conmen and grifters like this President. Then, the United States of America will be unrecognizable in 50 years.
1
I am always amazed that we only suffer from Constitutional crises when we have Republican presidents. What is it with the "law and order party?"
5
@A E M Yes, the media only seems to see them when the Democrats are not in power. Funny that.
I question why Trump wants another term as POTUS. He clearly is not a happy person and does not seem to enjoy his position or even the trapping of office except for the use of Air Force One. He would rather stay at one of his hotels and golf course resorts and has stated as much.
My theory is that he is terrified at being out of office and essentially broke. His debts will come due and his lenders will not be hesitant to bang loudly on his door, especially the Russians.
The major issue for Trump is that his "brand" will be essentially valueless. His base supporters cannot now or never could afford his "merchandise" whether it be Trump Vodka or a stay at one of the Trump properties. His wealthier supporters will quickly decide that there are better places to stay?
He record as a businessman is horrible. How will be try to refill the coffers.
6
@s brady -- Also, as long as courts agree that "a sitting president cannot be indicted," his tenure is about the only thing keeping him out of jail.
1
I have long felt this sense of inevitable armed conflict...as long as Trump has been a "serious" candidate and ludicrous president. Here is why. I am a liberal/progressive voter but also a gun owner, hunter, and target shooting enthusiast. I live in an unflippably blue state with the strictest of firearms ownership laws. But when I am around fellow gun owners/enthusiasts, I am bombarded by notions of Trump the Gun Rights Savior. It is clear that these folks voted for him mostly to protect their gun rights. And it is clear that nearly every one of them was/is pro-Trump.
I don't fear (most of) these folks, who are federally and state background checked, and are therefore presumably nonviolent noncriminals. But I do worry about such approved and armed citizens who:
Outwardly doubt the truth if the Sandy Hook shooting (just two towns over from Sandy Hook I heard this).
Display Molon Labe decals and tattoos, Don't Tread On Me flags, etc. in supposed defense of the 2nd amendment.
And still spout off on the notion the Hillary Clinton should be incarcerated.
The conspiracy theories and fear that consume such folks seem in part to motivate their gun ownership and advocacy. But their Guns are very real, their allegiance to Trump is loud and unwavering. I find myself weighing the numbers of such voices I hear day to day or read online...versus the numbers of police that might respond if words turn to actions. And I wonder if I -- an armed liberal citizen -- am too rare.
1
Mr. Murray needs to rethink his acceptance of a unfit and totally evil human who sows violence and hate residing in the presidency. He is underestimating the harm this will cause vs a higher tax rate being imposed on himself, for example, and other wealthy people.
Does Mr. Murray fundamentally not believe in democracy?
3
Trump won't go without kicking and screaming...That much I agree with. At the end of the day, it will all be just bluster - just louder than usual.
The business community alone (read billions of $$$ worth of it) will not tolerate a president or Senate (much less paid for advertising sources such as Fox) that creates instability to their revenue flows and/or profits. Trump (and any GOP operatives that would agree to support his unwillingness to leave office) would be crushed by that community in aggregate, if they so decide to make this kind of trouble.
Always follow the $$$. In this case it is our best friend.
1
Interesting discussion, but mostly extreme fantasy.
The key is the military and there is no reason on earth to believe that they would support Trump in the lawless activity of a coup. Trump is the commander in chief until he is voted out of office and then the military will drop him like a hot potato. He is disliked and disrespected by the military that it is highly unlikely that they would support illegal or unconstitutional commands from him.
Michael Cohen said that if Trump loses in 2020 "he will not go easily." The worst scenario I can envision is some number of armed militants converging around the White House in support of imposter Donald. Promptly they will face military intervention commanded by the new President. That will result either in standoff with eventually a multitude of arrests or a bloodbath if the militants start shooting their weapons.
The most severe side effect is the demolition of the Republican Party, gone forever.
2
This essay does not address what happens on Day 2 of the coup.
Many Trump supporters are heavily armed. But these are not smart men, and I don't think the whackos among them are so numerous.
Hypothetically, a few hundred could form a chain around the WH to keep the police from evicting Trump. But how does Trump govern in a situation like that? The US does not have institutional channels that a deranged rogue dog can operate through. A DC inner circle of scoundrels may stay and cheer him on. But further afield? People would drift away, the gears of the bureaucratic apparatus would seize up and all executive institutional functions would just grind to a halt. It would be akin to a wall-to-wall government shutdown.
We are not some banana republic wherein the business and financial sectors would fall in line, for the simple fact that their authority does not derive from Trump. The media would not grant him airtime to rage and exhort. Not even Fox. See how Fox drops programs and personalities under fire from advertisers who are under fire from civil society activists? Fox is a business, not a warrior-martyr. Even Twitter would cut him off.
By Day 5, Trump would be alone in the Oval Office, sulking in his chair, furiously scribbling out a diatribe against all the multitudes that have failed him. Finally he would go catatonic and would have to be transported out by a medical team. That image is too mortifying to contemplate. I hope we are spared it.
TE has detailed what is, in essence, fairly common knowledge. Some of this will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, most Republicans believe that with America a polyglot nation, where White people are, at best, a plurality, there will be more conflicts. Which means, to my mind, they will go into or even initiate interactions that turn into conflict, like the man recently convicted of murder for picking a fight with a Black man over illegally parking in a handicapped spot. Why not just report the license plate # to the police? No, he had to pick a fight and, then when he got knocked down, pulled a gun.
Or the cop in Texas who went into the wrong apt, didn't realize it wasn't hers, and killed the occupant, claiming "he didn't obey my orders" when SHE was the intruder, despite her uniform.
One can find case after case where White people in the last few years have belligerently instigated incidents with People of Color and seem STUNNED that they ended up arrested!
The one factor I see that hasn't been accounted for is that for all his tough talk and bullying and threats of violence, he's a coward who can't stand the sight of blood (especially his own, I'm guessing). He always surrounded himself with far more "security" thugs than most celebs.
3
Can we please introduce some realism into this scare topic?
Consider the sequence:
1) People vote
2) 50 independent Sec of States in each state verify the vote
3) Electoral College submits their tallies, results confirmed
4) Chief Justice of SC administers Oath of Office to president-Elect
At that point, the new President (hopefully Biden, Warren, or Sanders, etc.) has all the legal authority of the office and becomes Commander-in-Chief. If Trump tries to stay, he's a squatter.
There is no point for Donald Trump to inject himself into the situation. He can whine, he can Tweet, but that doesn't change the votes, the process or the results. Unless, you think 50 independent SoS in each of states and territories are going to ruin their careers and reputations solely on bloviation of Donal Trump, then we'll be fine. Yeah, he'll claim fraud , but for that to have real effect, he'd have to produce evidence. Something he's NEVER been able to pull out of thin air.
2
A joke. His supporters will do nothing. The system is working. He will be gone soon.
1
I think this problem is a bit overstated.
On November 3, 2020, Trump loses re-election, hopefully in a landslide.
On January 20, 2021, whether he agrees with it or not, the new President is sworn into office. Trump can have shackled himself to the desk in the Oval Office, but at that moment he is no longer President, but a trespasser.
The US Secret Service would move in and drag him away- hopefully on live TV with Trump frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog.
Beyond that, considering his health, his diet of fast food, his state of constant anger, a stroke and/or heart attack should remove him from this planet soon enough.
1
Racists for Russia, what a world this has become.
I hope the Joint Chiefs of Staff, NSA, and Secret Service have an emergency plan (note: not a coup) to protect our nation, our Constitution and our laws. Not only do I fear for democracy. I fear this will not end well.
Perhaps even worse, I fear it will not end.
1
How will Charles Murray frame his decision to vote for Trump after his 2nd Amendment pals take over? "Yes, there is blood shed, neighbors turning on neighbor, and a few assassinations, but I like his policies, so...."
Really, Mr. Murray. Really.
5
Why is Charles Murray being cited as an expert here? Not all readers might know him as the author of the Bell Curve, where he essentially used warped data to support a bad argument that there is a hierarchy in racial intelligence, and therefore any attempt by the government to improve the lot of non-whites is simply a waste of (white) tax-payer money. Yes, he certainly is the type of person who might admit Trump is totally crooked and yet vote for him anyway because he likes Trump's policies. Spelling that out for readers might help further explain what's wrong with today's Republican party.
5
Just have to say, upfront, that I do not want to see violence or a civil war. We should not stoop to violent tribalism.
Ironically, many of Trump's supporters denigrate tribes like the Taliban. Yet, they are willing to drive through American streets in 4x4 technicals? Give me a break.
The American government is ultimately bigger than Trump. A person may reside in the White House, but the Presidency is not determined by the occupant. Perhaps, Trump will reside Assange-like in the White House. Who cares? He will eventually leave in search of chicken MacNuggets.
2
The founding fathers used a Roman text book to fashion a governmental structure. So now we have 'Caligula' on the Potomac! History repeats itself as Marx noted - the second time as farce. But our comedian is like 'Chipola' in Thomas Mann's "Mario and the Magician" not funny, unhinged, and very dangerous.
This is ridiculous. He may not want to go. He may contest the 2020 election (he'll be impeached but the Senate won't vote to convict), but a bunch of academics sitting around talking about some Red Dawn scenario where a bunch unorganized white dudes with guns start a civil war to back Trump is pure fantasy. These guys may love the Donald, but they're not willing to die for him. Don't get caught up in the rhetoric and Fox News hype.
4
Our military leaders are by training and temperament a loyal and trustworthy bunch, dedicated by oath and belief to preserving our country and its founding constitutional ideals. They are intelligent men and women who are not fooled by the illegitimate and moronic claims from the White House that we are now seeing every day. They have surely been pondering how to respond if they receive illegal orders from Trump. When and if the time comes I believe they will do the right thing and send this charlatan and his minions on their way. Otherwise, God help us.
2
As a veteran, I would ask the Democrat candidate to express in his/her first debate opening statement that Trump had stated that a man who flew into a sky of exploding metal, got wounded and shot down, captured, imprisoned and tortured for five years "was not a hero". Also, the man who avoided being drafted claiming "bone spurs" - he later couldn't remember which foot he allegedly had them on - stated he "likes people who don't get captured"; inferring he would commit suicide before being captured. This so-called "Commander In Chief" is but a blowhard who is only a "leader" in his own demented mind and not deserving of the respect of our brave men and woman in our military whose primary sworn duty is to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America - not to some would-be Putin wannabe.
5
Hope not. God bless Trump and the USA
3
@lieberma
If you want a king or emperor, there are plenty of other countries where you can live.
1
The question raised in the article is: would you accept an election in which Trump lost, or would you try to overthrow the United States?
2
@lieberma
I would find it hard for God to bless both Trump AND the USA.
It's one or the other -- and hopefully the latter.
Effective military leaders don't suffer fools easily. I can't imagine the people I worked for in the Marines backing a coup to continue this clown act.
1
This kind of speculation does no one any good. Yes this man will be leaving the WH on Jan 20 2021 if not sooner and if he refuses he will be removed, it really is that simple. This is a nation of laws and they will be enforced even if these corrupt goons need to be forcibly removed.
1
Inside the beltway academic geniuses. What a joke. When Trump is removed, there will be a few Cliven Bundy holdouts that snipe at 'those people', but they are the same types ready to do their worst right now, which is nothing.
3
Trump is as mortal as the rest of us. Sooner or later (probably sooner considering his age and health) he'll drop dead and his cult of personality will fragment like all others before it. Trump is not eternal. Trump will one day end, one way or another.
1
Partizan politics drives people nuts. The idea that Trump isn't going to leave is quite crazy. Many Dems have been crazy since he got in. The hysteria gets old.
2
Even before reading, Edsall's column, the answer to how is obvious.
Feet first.
2
The bottom line is we can’t have a hairsbreadth margin in the 2020 election because there’s no telling what Fox and the gun crazies will do. The margin in the election has to be clear-cut. If he doesn’t fall down, this is a big argument for President Biden.
2
Look at those armed "militants" in the photo: overweight, out of shape bully boys who are unlikely to have ever served in the military or had any training. You think when they're looking down the barrel of a national guard rifle they'll hold out for more than a nano second? They'll run screaming for their chips and brewskis and be semi-comatose in front of the tube in a flash.
3
We need to remember that, at his core, Trump is a bully and bullies are cowards. They act as they do because they know they’re weak. And look at that picture of the 2nd amendment guys and you see the losers in his “tough guy” entourage.
Trump has rolled over repeatedly on many matters where he said he’d be tough. Even many supporters now see him as a weak fool, though a useful one for now (Murray for example). There is little respect for him behind all that.
If sent from office he will no doubt cause trouble on the way out the door but he will go. His remaining support will wither as his behavior becomes more erratic. The country will endure. And if we can’t endure this guy perhaps we don’t deserve to endure.
1
He shouldn’t count on the careerists in the armed forces.
3
This all started with the Tea Party. Surveys were clear that those people hated the Republican Party more than the Democrats. Edsall is on to something, but it is much more complex.
In 2015, a survey was taken and 57% of the Republicans were in favor of dismantling the Constitution and making this a "Christian Nation." These people would support making Trump the emperor if he made America a "Christian nation."
-------------------
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_22415.pdf
A Public Policy Polling (PPP) national survey conducted between February 20th and February 22nd of Republican voters, found that an astonishing 57 percent of Republicans want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion.
Although the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment clearly states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” GOP voters want to cast aside that provision and impose Christianity as the official American religion.
The PPP survey also found that 2/3rds of Republican voters do not believe in global warming, and 49 percent do not believe in the theory of evolution. Not only do they wish to establish a national religion, but it appears that their version of Christianity is one that is at odds with the scientific consensus in climatology and biology.
THIS IS THE TRUMP BASE!
2
@Roy
Your 2015 survey gives me hope....I'd love to dismantle the Constitution. Doing that means that we have no country any longer. And that means the blue states are free to get together and become a separate nation.
If the Republicans really want to separate, I'd be thrilled and grateful. But, I suspect what they really want is to shove religion down everyone's throat while forcing the productive blue states to forever support the red states.
1
Okay. So here we are with White Nationalists armed with assault weapons and feeling very macho. What to do? Let's go back to Clive Bundy and the standoff with government officials. Let's recall that Clive Bundy used government land (our property) to graze cattle and that he had stopped paying rent. When the government came to remove Bundy and his cattle from government land (our property), he was joined by a bunch of gun nuts who couldn't think of anything better than declare war against our own government. If I was President, I would have sent in the troops. I would have given Bundy and his supporters 30 minutes to lay down their arms and leave. For those who didn't, I would have the troops go in and put a stop to the insurrection.
Has this ever been done by US Presidents? Yes, refer to George Washington's action to Shay's Rebellion. Lincoln's actions to New York City riots.
We now have trump who wants White Nationalists with assault weapons to declare war on the United States. trump is Putin's doll... er, puppet.
Leave aside the most purely racist and paranoid beliefs of the Trump/white supremacists. Does anyone actually believe that whites will be materially better when power passes from their hands? There is no serious public thought on how to deal with this inevitable transition except for the Democrats/AOC/Ilhan saying, "Time for you to go." No wonder the U.S. will face serious issues, Trump or no Trump.
1
Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress, quoted in the piece, condemns Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormons, Roman Catholicism, and homosexuals. However, he had the following to say in 2012:
"President Obama is not the Antichrist. But what I am saying is this: the course he is choosing to lead our nation is paving the way for the future reign of the Antichrist."
Man, did he nail it or what?
2
Charles Murray? Really? Why bring him into the discussion?
He has touted a racist pseudo science which has been debunked.
Is he really a political scientist? Nah! A pseudo - political scientist, a hack, who got some attention a few years back.
3
Mr. Edsall, this is a ridiculous headline in a long line of media fright pieces. Trump is a harmful, divisive, nightmarish joke. But he's still a joke.
The USA will soon make a clean break from trump.
2
Finally, someone starts to take this seriously. And the point is not "which experts say this might happen," but rather, "How are we going to prepare for the worst while hoping for the best?"
See any of that in here? Right.
There is one answer: mass nonviolent resistance until he leaves, period. With all the obvious costs that will entail.
If you don't head out the second this kind of thing occurs, you're an unpatriotic coward.
1
I am a 67 year old lady with a bad back. But, believe me I would do whatever I could to rid my country of the scourge of Trump. If push comes to shove, you'll see me out there defending my country against as many Trump nuts as I can take on, even if it's only one. I'm not about to let the America I love be taken over by a criminal nincompoop.
3
Why is it that every single time Charles Murrray says something I find it utterly repugnant? Is it because there's always another racist dog whistle? Or is it that he lives in a Hobson's choice in which there are no honest moral choices to be made on the basis of decency? It might not be possible to find someone more vile than Trump but Murray comes in a close second.
2
When Trump loses you will be shocked. His supporters will go on with there lives and no big deal. I can tell you this won't seen any Trump supporters like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDYNVH0U3cs
The truth is the hysterics are on the left, this article is proof.
Our media live in this bubble where politics is all important and almost a religion. Most people aren't that way. Mr. Edsall lives in this bubble.
1
man, some people need to leave their echo chambers...
Trump is delusional if he thinks that "bikers" are going to be the third arm of his junta of military, cops and bikers.
Since he lives in a glass bubble, never having anything to do with 99.9999999....% of the population of this nation except for his "rallies" or heading down to his golf course, then he still lives in the 1950's where roving motorcycle gangs led by Marlon Brando, zoom into town and take it over.
Donnie: That was a movie.
The reality of "bikers" is that they are also 70, are laying on their couches, overweight, never go anywhere, their kids can't stand them and they have a whole string of ex-wives (no, I am not describing YOU, Donnie, though if the shoe fits and all that...)
Perhaps you have forgotten how disappointed you were in these "bikers" the last time you had them zoom into D.C.
Have you forgotten that you sneer at them because their numbers were so puny?
Well, they haven't.
Don't be counting on "bikers" to pull your "coup".
They are old, on Social Security and grateful for their Medicare and their couch. Or they are doing 20 to Life in a cage.
Sure -- rely on the cops and the military, but remember, though they may get 60% of the budgets in this country, they are only 1% of the population and if they point their guns at me, I'll whack 'em in the head with my cast iron frying pan. Just like I did to my biker-boyfriends all those decades ago.
You're delusional, Donnie, totally out of touch.
Go play golf.
And eat another hamburgler.
5
I detest this irresponsible speculation running in the Times. We have far more critical issues at hand.
"Will Trump leave the White House?" is a silly click-bait headline that I liken to a "was Obama born in Kenya?" Fox news crawl.
Besides, stop giving him ideas.
2
Six months ago, I submitted this online comment to the New York Times:
"Who is left to say "no" to Trump? No one. He is now limited only by his imagination and the laws of physics.
Trump supporters remain in lockstep with him. They aren't concerned that an insane dictator now rules our country -- in fact, they love him all the more for it.
There is only one group of people who can stop Trump. And that is those of us who detest the ignorant, vile, unfit man in the Oval Office.
My concern though, is that we will not be able to do so, solely by peaceful means. We are now facing many obstacles we never faced before. A deliberate effort to disenfranchise Democratic voters, by Republicans throughout the country. Documented voter fraud committed by Republicans, such as the last election in North Carolina. ...
But let's say that the Democratic candidate wins in 2020 (including having the majority of Electoral College votes). Does anyone honestly believe, at this point, that Trump will go quietly?
He will not. He has already said that "his police", "his military" and "his bikers" will ensure his victory. He has already told his followers to commit acts of violence, should he lose. But he will not leave the White House voluntarily.
We who are sickened by this "president" the damage he has done to this country must be ready for perhaps the first serious sacrifices we have ever made, to protect our democracy. ... "
Still think I'm wrong?
1
Six months ago, I submitted this online comment to the New York Times:
"Who is left to say "no" to Trump? No one. He is now limited only by his imagination and the laws of physics. Trump supporters remain in lockstep with him. They aren't concerned that an insane dictator now rules our country -- in fact, they love him all the more for it.
There is only one group of people who can stop Trump. And that is those of us who detest the ignorant, vile, unfit man in the Oval Office. My concern though, is that we will not be able to do so, solely by peaceful means.
We are now facing many obstacles we never faced before. A deliberate effort to disenfranchise Democratic voters, by Republicans throughout the country. Documented voter fraud committed by Republicans, such as the last election in North Carolina. ...
But let's say that the Democratic candidate wins in 2020 (including having the majority of Electoral College votes).
Does anyone honestly believe, at this point, that Trump will go quietly? He will not. He has already said that "his police", "his military" and "his bikers" will ensure his victory. He has already told his followers to commit acts of violence, should he lose. But he will not leave the White House voluntarily.
We who are sickened by this "president" the damage he has done to this country must be ready for perhaps the first serious sacrifices we have ever made, to protect our democracy. ... "
Still think I'm wrong?
The image that appears to me is of a extra large 2 year old boy being pulled out of the White House , kicking and screaming.
The take home lesson from this is that Fox News is responsible for the creation and maintenance of a substantial number of idiots in our country. It's sad to see that one of our most cherished freedoms, freedom of the press, has been used in an attempt to destroy our Republic. Let's hope that they fail.
As a side note, if the civil war that Trump is so eager to start actually comes about, let's hope that his side is mostly "manned" by the crack troops illustrated in the picture of the "pro-Second Amendment gathering."
1
With President Trump, it's "L'état, c'est moi." He has a band of followers who think the same thing. He's already hinted at the possibility of a third term. He's recently used the word "treason" a lot. Since he believes himself to be the embodiment of the state, "treason" is anything against him, rather than the country he's supposed to serve. He is the most dangerous man to ever occupy the White House.
2
Pure speculation, Donny will leave 'tweeting as he goes".
1
NO! He must be forced out.
The insanity of this piece is quite remarkable.
Trump is the worst president this country has ever seen. But the idea that he's going to "refuse to leave the White House" is _crazy_
Power, all power, flows from plurality. Trump would be removed from office if he refused to leave, everyone (reasonable) knows it, and so he would never try it.
It's astonishing that the NYT is publishing op-eds like this. The decline of this paper has been sad to witness.
We are there, the greatest crisis since the Civil War.
Let that sink in.
If he is impeached he will call for violence to preserve his illegitimate presidency.
Even if he wins what will happen in 24? He does not go into that gentle goodnight.
To give up the power at any point will result in the exposure of his crimes, his families crimes and his cronies crimes.
They all know it too. So if your Putin, the Saudi prince, your all in now. Mega wealth with their ill begotten gains, in. As for the Senators in the GOP, they are getting their social conservative policies, tax cuts and judges.
Do you really think they will stand up for a stupid old fashion thing called the Constitution when they have POWER.
We are in serious trouble
1
For all the talk over the past 20 years ,plus or minus, it's been look out for : CHINA, IRAN, IRAQ, CUBA, RUSSIA ...etc.
They are the enemy...they will destroy us.
Walk Kelly was a cartoonist [really a lot more]
He was right..........................
This is absurd and paranoid. I hope that after Trump does leave office—whether after the 2020 election, the 2024 election, or earlier if he is impeached and convicted—the NY Times reruns this Op/Ed column. Or is the Times ever able to laugh at itself?
The other takeaway is that there are plenty of academic social “scientists” whose partisan fervor has equally driven them off of their rockers. With the exception of Charles Murray, whose comments are unflinchingly accurate but will be unpopular here, the academics are laughably out of touch with the real world.
I actually had to stop and ponder whether this column is meant as parody. If it is, I apologize. If not, please pass out the tin hats to Edsall and his friends.
2
Never. God bless Trump and the USA
1
If a gang of those pot-bellied weekend warriors showed up, DC SWAT, let alone Seals or Rangers, could take them out in minutes.
2
Every time I’ve expressed my concern about this in comments sections, the NYT has declined to approve it for reasons I don’t understand. Maybe it’s editorial people don’t want to alarm, maybe they think we’re crackpots. I don’t know. Great, so now here we are. Maybe our concerns can get some air.
1
I think I never really gauged the level of foolishness or recklessness of NYT opinion writers on this matter until now. You have done enough. Have you no sense of reality?
( Inspired by Joseph Welch)
Civil War over Trump? For God's sake, what is next? Aliens have taken possession of Republican leaders? Ok, maybe. That is more believable than the fiction "Nightmare on Pennsylvania Ave." horror story presented in the article.
1
Worst-case Trump idiocy on the part of his followers could be overcome by America's younger voter segments who seem
to be most aware of this terrible president's precedents.
That voter block does not need convincing, and, they are
influential.
Both political parties should take heed: Nominate candidates
(Trump not to be re-nomoinated) that younger voters can
believe in, trust, and assist in putting America's democracy
back on track as a truly inclusive society.
1
These types of articles “Will Trump Ever Leave” are ridiculous and only lend credence to Trump apologists.
Twisted scenario: a horde of 2nd Amendment kooks dressed up in their camo, not going to church well armed or intimidating Bureau of Land Management employees, but instead going all out against an actual army.
Might not be all bad.
1
If this is the way we go, in a bloody revolution or civil war, then I'll go out and get myself one of those guns they love so much. Bring it on. It's MY country too. I was born here.
1
I actually think he will see the handwriting on the wall and try to do some kind of a deal to avoid prosecution, quitting office before the election and securing a guarantee of a pardon from Pence; assuming Pence isn't swept up in the mess also. Otherwise he will have to deal with president Nancy.
With pardon in hand he will sneak out the back door and fly to Saudi Arabia to live out his miserable life in Luxury like Idi Amin (spell?). At heart he has always been a coward, like all bullies.
I can dream can't I?
If Trump loses, he will claim the election was stolen, declare martial law, and refuse to leave the White House
Modern popular democracy has a very short history- in fact industrialization's history is very short. The "men of property" our founding fathers expected to run this country are a relatively well educated elite, perhaps less easily misled by the typical demagoguery, the base appeals to selfish and often tribal interests, that can lead to fascism.
The "men of property" in the U.S. today enjoy greater power than the rest of us over the government because money is allowed so much more influence than in most other modern democracies.
However, the rise of Hitler provides a cautionary tale of the limitation of this kind of power, and those captains of industry didn't run organized campaigns to destroy the rational thinking of their citizens as has happened in our country- first turning a large segment of this country against science and then against any media that isn't FOX, or worse.
All that said, we are not suffering severe economic stress, as was Germany back then, which is likely an essential ingredient for Trump to overthrow our government, even if the orange buffoon has successfully created a cult of millions.
Trump sometimes seems to be doing his best to throw this country into a severe recession but he can't really accomplish it and avoid blame.
He probably would have been more dangerous if he'd been elected in 2008.
I don't understand the cult-like devotion to Donald Trump. What are conservative Republicans worried about? If Trumps gets kicked out, we'll just have Mike Pence as President. Hello? He's arguably the Whitest White Guy in America. He can run for president and get elected or not on his own merits, as it should be. When will all these losers realize that Trump is not about them, he's about Trump. They'd be better off without him. With Pence they could have all the policies they like without the stupidity and fewer risks to national security.
Nah, talk radio was saying the same thing about OBama.
1
My prediction: Trump will be the Ozymandius of the 21st century-- Shattered into pieces, his head half sunk into the sands of the desert of his own construction, his lips curled in a snarl as if to say: "Look upon these works, ye mighty and despair." Nothing beside will remain around his colossal wreck as the lone and level sand stretch far away. This may take a while, and he may make desert and call it peace before he's done. But neither time nor the goddess of History will be kind to him.
1
Trump is so convinced that there is a 'Deep State' that he's been busy the past few years propping up his own.
Now he's exposed and can't fathom why it's ok for 'them' but not for him. I think the conspiratorial and limited nature of his (and his sycophant's) thinking process is clouding any sense of right and wrong. He truly believes any misdeeds his administration has done - or is thinking of doing - has already been done ten-fold by his made-up boogeymen in the 'deep state'.
1
One of the wackiest articles I have ever read. That's saying a lot as I read the NYT every day.
If you suffer from TDS this might help. Here's a summary of what happened. Trump won the election. The justice department, the FBI, the DNC, the Obama administration. the press (NYT) and Hillary Clinton all colluded with the Russians and other foreign entities to overthrow our president. Thankfully they have all been exposed as complete frauds. The American people know it, they care about it and they are hoping someone in the democratic party will accept that paving the way for them to retake the white house in 2020. Unfortunately the keystone cops are in control which will result in another Trump victory.
That's unfortunate but true.
1
Alexander Harrison had a great deal of respect for Mr. Edsall when he began writing for the Times newspaper years ago, but his hatred of Trump seems to have gotten the better of him, and his partisanship,failure to write objectively is disappointing! Every column 1 reads in the Times newspaper these days is an attack on Trump.Have suggested that conservative writers like Hanson, Coulter, Reilly, Jason Reilly, Buchanan be recruited to add balance and fairness. Reading 1 anti Trump jeremiad after another is tiresome for the discerning reader.
1
Trump has no intention of ever leaving the White House since he will face civil charges as a citizen. Are we going to let this dictator-wannabe ruin our democratic republic? He obviously doesn't stand for the Constitution and thinks renegades will help him with a coup. Or has it already happened? I, for one, will not accept the diminishment of our United States by this protofascist pretender.
2
Trump is horrible, absolutely horrible, but Mike "Theocracy" Pence is just as frightening.
1
I never have, and never will, sign a loyalty oath to a political party. It is the sort of thing that leads to Trump and situations like it, situations that almost inevitably lead to armed conflict.
I will never forget listening to an older (but not that much) German woman who spoke of the Hitler and pre Nazi years in words marinated in the regretful sorrow of a woman with obvious upper middle class origins. "They were (and here she whispered a German epithet) people but we thought they could be controlled in the end." She saw no irony in the fact that she was a conservative and loyal Republican, that we were both civil servants and that our immediate boss was a Jew. And it's why I , among other things, am a registered, but not loyal, Democrat.
2
Just to make it a bit more complex........ S there is an election and Trump steps down. Then what? He clearly is not a patriot and has no real affective ties to the United States, yet even someone as inattentive as Donald Trump will walk out of the White House with an enormous stock of information regarding US plans, capabilities, and other strategic secrets. How do we prevent him monetizing such information? Assume he is convicted of criminal acts......where is he imprisoned that he will not represent a threat to the country by passing or selling information to the highest bidder? Can we expect Republicans to accept sending Trump to isolation somewhere to protect American national security? Indeed security concerns might demand locking up not only people like Barr, Pompeo, and Mnuchin but perhaps McConnell as well. How do we do that without violating the Constitution? To assume Trump's departure from office brings an end to the damage he may do to the country is extraordinarily optimistic.
2
@usa999 Aliens should take him. But then again, he is privy to our country's and therefore much of planet Earth's secrets, so that's not even a good alternative anymore.
Yes, he will not step down without continually tagging the world with himself in some way or another. Maybe it will not be until then that we can charge with the high crimes charge, because he will need to keep pushing the envelope further and further to maintain the same "high". It's awful to have to wait for something to happen, be allowed to stick, or become unsafe before we can act, but this is becoming the American Way.
The framers inserted congressional impeachment power into the constitution as a safeguard against executive tyranny about which they were so concerned.
According to Plato, a tyrant governs on the bases of self-love and fear. Therefore, a tyrant is compelled to persecute those
pointing the way to the good and the truth.
2
In the I 80's I lived in West Africa. There were coups often. One friend asked me, "What if the president refused to leave the white house?"
I said that will never happen, he would be dragged out. I am not so sure any more. We are on a dangerous road to dictatorship.
175
Recall Republican efforts in Florida in the wake of the 2000 presidential election: legal challenges, virulent propaganda broadcast through right wing media, and attempts to disrupt and discredit the recount with organized protesters.
Trump won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points or 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes.
Imagine if the Democratic presidential candidate wins the Electoral College by a similarly small margin of votes.
Nothing Trump and his Republicans have done in the past three years indicates they will concede the Presidency under such circumstances. I think a Republican effort to seize power in 2020 though the courts, media, and organized and unorganized street demonstrations could pose a very serious threat to this nation's democratic norms.
As this article shows, many Republican voters view the Democratic Party as an existential threat to their way of life. If democratic processes are responsible for destroying their happiness, safety, and security, why would they respect those processes? And what if a future candidate perfects the politics that Trump blundered into and rode to power?
3
@South Halsted With Trump, it wouldn't even be necessary to have small margins favoring a Democratic candidate (in 2020) in order for him to sue various states. Recall that Trump has repeatedly declared that millions of votes were cast "fraudulently" in the 2016 election. He could make similar claims, however unfounded, to sue states over their 2020 vote totals. Trump has a long history of filing lawsuits whenever things do't go his way.
Even without court rulings in Trump's favor, protracted lawsuits in 2020 could conceivably tie up the final declaration of a winner well past January of 2021. What then?
1
The one thing we ("we" being the few rational people left in the country) have going for us is that Americans, in general, do not like being uncomfortable. And a civil war would be mighty uncomfortable. All the Democrats have to do to end the war and Trump's reign is to find some way to cut off the air conditioning.
1
Dr. Edsall,
You know how to pick the questions to discuss. Your column addresses the reality of the Trump presidency. None of the experts discussed the role of foreign interference and its role in defeating Mrs. Clinton, and we or at least I don't understand what motivated the leadership of the Russian government that it was in the interests of Russia to meddle in an effective way to create the Trump presidency.
I don't know Mr. Trump but I have always felt since his early on statements about the crowd size at the inauguration that he is sensitive to the legitimacy of his election and uses his rally's to pump up his ego. In your piece I was taken by the strong language of Charles Murray.
The Trump presidency has been undeniably divisive so like you I am concerned that as Mr. Trump's support begins to fall that his core supporters could cause a great deal of disruption. and could fan the smoldering fear of the reality of a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic society can be fanned into flames that will be destructive to the American experiment.
I hope that the Republican Senators come to their senses on this latest display of self-absorbed incompetence and will visit the White House, in private, to lay-out a road map for the President to follow for the remainder of his term.
Our economy and well-being of our society will be facing some rough times in managing the huge number of workers connected to the necessary transition to a non-fossil energy economy.
It is indeed hard to imagine any circumstance where Trump does not prefer a civil war to his leaving the White House whether via impeachment, a lost election or term limits.
Among his many, many failings, Trump is not even vaguely interested in democratic principles. If he believes the Republicans will support making him President for life, he will do so in a heartbeat and appoint Ivanka as his successor.
It may well come down to if the military supports him or the constitution. I wish this were hyperbole, but don't believe it is.
4
Those who dismiss the threats of Trump and his followers naively repeat costly past mistakes. Let's not forget history and take preventive measures with extreme prejudice. This is what supporting and defending the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic means.
1
Since 9/11, certain Americans have become more and more paranoid. Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, et al. have played a huge role in weirding-out the psyche of various, mostly male, citizens. A toxic brew that’s hard to fully understand.
A few years ago, a group of us at work had a lottery pool. Some Millennial-aged guys and I were talking about what we’d do if we won the jackpot; Ferrari’s, second homes, the usual stuff. When the conversation turned to a rural-living, older conservative co-worker his response about winning the lottery was this: “I’d buy a safe and fill it full of guns, then I’d buy another safe and fill it full of guns, then I’d buy another safe and fill IT full of guns...” his answer went on for an uncomfortable amount of time and freaked out the rest of us.
We all got laid off about a year after that. Nobody won the lottery.
465
@Dudesworth. We are in real trouble if too many start basing their view of the world at large on personal anecdotes.
9
@Dudesworth. My dinosaur-in-the-cave group, literally everyone in my graduating school class, the End of Boomer-cycle people, would start a foundation of some kind with a windfall. My thing is clean watersheds, estuaries, stewardship, etc. We know the math and can envision a balance of business development without wrecking the environment or taking away everyone's inalienable rights. We can envision a tax base that pays for schools without paving the planet away with slash-and-burn encroaching Levittown-ism. It is not impossible. Virtually every one of us is involved in the humanities, environmentally responsible business, head-for-the-hills small footprint living.
We are not stuck in the "More Doctors Smoke Camels" 'fifties. And we are not xenophobic paranoids, or at least if we do have prejudices and micro aggressions, we do not permit our actions to mimic those of a dystopian mob.
38
@ehillesum yes, yes empiricism has no place in building one’s worldview. It’s all down to stats, isn’t it? In that case here’s this;
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/
15
Trump is inviting foreign sabotage of the election for reasons beyond winning. If he loses, he'll claim that, because if the involvement of foreign entities in the election, the election is invalid. Then he'll say a new election will be scheduled "sometime in the future" after elections are made more secure...which will never happen. It will take the FBI/Marshalls/National Guard to remove him if at all.
1
Trump has 36% under lock and key. That leaves 64% against. Nearly a two to one margin. Trump is vastly outnumbered.
Something like 3% of the population owns 50% of the guns. That's your die hard Fox crowd and NRA. The vast majority of gun owners are not looking for a shooting revolution.
I cannot fathom the professional military leadership supporting a dictatorial takeover of America. The high ranking members of the officer corps have more respect for the laws than that. The people that control the really big guns understand what big guns can do and who they serve to protect. They protect the nation, not the president.
Bullies get their power to bully from instilling fear. When those that are bullied realize that the bully's power can be taken from him by not fearing him, the bully is done.
Trump is a bully in every sense of the word. He gets his power from our fear. I do not fear him. None of us should fear him. We can and will remove him from office in 2020, if not before. There may be violence in the streets if he loses. Our professional law enforcement forces will put it down. Our well regulated militia, the National Guard, will put it down.
If Trump incites violence, he should and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. We can just add those crimes to the list. Trump is most likely going to jail after removal. The 64% will not be enslaved by the 36%. It's our country too.
1335
@Bruce Rozenblit
Good points. But when we remember Charlottesville and how a small number caused so much havoc and murder, we might note that any such attempt by Trump to remain in office after legally being relieved of his duties would cause a lot of pain and suffering. Rather than dismiss this as a sort of "just not going to happen" thing, we might consider how bad it would be and inform the "silent majority" to get off their couches and prevent this -- Vote, Inform, Pay Attention. But thanks for your sane comments.
114
@Bruce Rozenblit. . . the work ahead must be to get the vote out, so the success of another candidate, almost any other candidate, is overwhelming. We the People, will have spoken.
82
@Bruce Rozenblit
Well said.
I live in a very red part of a really red southern state. However, for quite awhile now, I have seen almost no pickups flying CSA and "Don't Tread on Me" flags from their beds. Nobody has tried to destroy my multi-lingual "Hate Has No Home Here" yard sign. My friends - and there are many - who I'm certain voted for Trump in 2016, say nothing at all because they're disgusted with Trump's despicable behaviors. Whether they vote against him or abstain from voting in 2020, I'm not sure, though. But going to the street with their guns is something they won't be doing.
All this to say, even here nobody seems appalled in extremis about impeachment or defeat of their guy.
194
Leege has come to the same conclusion I have. Trump is not going to leave unless one of his blood vessels pops in one of his daily rages.
Who would remove him? Not the Supreme Court. Not the GOP Senate. Not the DOJ or DOD. We've got five more years of Trump turning the country into an authoritarian state. And many voters welcome that.
This article assumes there will be an election. If polls show Trump losing, I expect him to cancel the election, citing evidence that voting machines are not secure. He will say the election will take place once the voting machines have been made secure -- and who knows how long that might take? If the polls show a Democratic wave sweeping Congress enough Republicans (already comfortable with extreme gerrymandering and measures to impede voting by minorities) will support Trump to make it so.
5
@Hugh
Elections are conducted at the state-level - 45 might be able to do that in the District of Columbia, but I don't believe he can stop states from conducting their elections.
There's a reason that function was reserved for the states, notwithstanding the Bush v Gore decision.
@Hugh Good lord, you don't have any grasp on reality. For those that say Trump supporters are off there rocker (which is true), this comment equally as crazy possibly more.
When a military member wears the uniform and receives a salary from the Department of Defense, that member has essentially signed away his First Amendment rights granted by the Constitution. The exact words of the Uniform Code of Military Justice Article 88 - Contempt Toward Public Officials states:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”
The main reason for this regulation is to keep military members with access to major weapons of war to ever get involved in politics. Once they are retired or have resigned their commissions and become civilian citizens, it seems that they may partake in political discourse in both written or spoken word.
If in fact former members of the military are no longer bound to their apolitical allegiance to the president once they retired or resigned from their commissions, will retired generals like Jim Mattis, John Kelly and H.R. McMaster openly break their silence and speak out as patriots in defense of our democracy against the dangers of their former Commander in Chief? Their collective words to the American people would be prove to be powerful.
3
In spite of the fears outlined in many of the comments on this article, I continue to believe that if DJT loses the election and refuses to surrender power to the winner, he will be escorted out of the White House by a detachment of the Marines, or Army or perhaps a detachment with representatives from all the Armed Forces of the United States, even if some or all of them voted for him. I also believe he will try just about anything, but as in the case of Richard Nixon, he will accede because his support in Congress for such actions will be practically nonexistent, not because they did not vote for him but because he would have crossed a line that is beyond their tolerance.
2
I have thought about this a lot. And here's how it plays out:
Vote happens on November 3, 2020, at which point or shortly thereafter we will know the popular vote, state by state.
But the popular vote is not what elects the president, that's the electoral college. The electoral college votes on the Monday after the second Wednesday in December, December 14, 2020. Trumps first move would to be to try to de-legitimize the popular vote either through propaganda or by legal action to prevent the electoral college from voting or to change the members votes based on the alleged unreliability of the popular vote count. If that fails, then he has lost officially.
His next step would be to nevertheless continue to argue that the popular votes was somehow wrong and continue a public smear campaign or his legal challenge, claiming that the electoral college vote should be discarded.
Assuming no evidence to support his claims, the new president would be sworn in in January. Trump would still be in the White House claiming he was the real winner.
At that point the question becomes: who does the military follow? If they follow Trump, our democracy falls.
You answered your own question... the military will take orders from the newly sworn President.
"...a malignant narcissist, which includes as symptoms some of the most unattractive qualities that human beings can have. He also exhibits textbook traits of mental decline that have worsened measurably over the last three years. I find in him no evidence of redeeming traits — no instance of loyalty to a friend in trouble or of unconditional generosity. I despise him and think he is unfit to be president."
That's it in a nutshell. And yet after having said that, a highly educated man said he still might vote for Trump. That's really quite alarming. I suspect these kinds of conversations took place in pre-WW II Germany, but I never thought I'd hear that sentiment and reasoning in the United States of America.
14
Perhaps the most important opinion piece the Times has published in decades. This is also my greatest fear. Police and military generally support Trump - some fanatically so. I do not believe as a group they would support a Trump move to be 'President for life' but I do not think they would actively oppose it either.
The real fear is that, if it should come to any combination of impeachment fear or contested election, that Trump would call forth his followers to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to defend him. Then, from every hollow within 200 miles or more, men in camo with AR-15s answer the call and take up residence in front of The White House. Would the police or Secret Service stop them? Perhaps. But they would be massively outnumbered in short order. Then we have the ultimate challenge to our republic.
Since this article is putting for worst case scenarios, this is mine. It's time to face these very unpleasant possibilities.
8
I saw with my own eyes President Nixon getting on the helicopter on the south lawn on August 9, 1974... President Ford addressed the nation after taking the oath of office and stated "My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over ... Our Constitution works; our great Republic is a government of laws and not of men"...
This is what keeps me optimistic during this troubling time that we are presently in.
3
Fear mongering doesn't help. Professor Bobbitt is right. There is no Praetorian Guard standing behind the president. He will grudgingly leave office if defeated with Fox News delivering mild rebuke to the electorate for making a bad choice. Fox will not foment a revolution.
The worst case (and vastly improbable) scenario is with individual states disobeying federal mandates if a progressive is elected president. If a ragtag group of "patriots" in the western "sagebrush rebellion" could cause the feds to back off, imagine what a state's National Guard could do.
The presidential succession will be a bit ruffled, but the transition will be made. Fear not.
8
In a way I am glad for this essay because it brings these fears to a public view.
The possibility of a slide into some form of dictatorship is indeed not negligible. If the election is contested, in the mind of Trump voters it will have been stolen, hence illegitimate. Barr and Pompeo are openly disdainful of Congress. If an order were to come to the military to safeguard a cancelled election, the top generals would have to break the chain of command and move against Trump. Who believes McConnell would lead the Senate.
Often dictatorships rise with minimal struggle to overcome weak democracies. The biggest weakness is when politicians and judges don't accept clear red lines and are on board with tossing democratic rule off board.
Trump was very clear in 2016 that he would not accept losing the election. Instead of treating this like a joke or one of those campaign moments, we would be wiser to treat it as a preview.
2
Well, there's a cheery thought for white nationalists on the future of America.
In a world where all things are possible, the notion of a Trump Presidency for life cannot be excluded - but is it probable? I think not. It would mean the end of the electoral process, of the legislative authority of the Congress, the end of rules and quite possibly the end of days as we know them.
That a vibrant nation would allow a sick old man to shape it in his own image doesn't sound very American to me - nor would it to the majority of voters (like myself) who value the Bill of Rights and have fought wars to protect it.
And as for succession (this is going to make me ill) President Eric?
I know there are exceptionally thick people in the corridors of power, but there are also nimble, smart, educated, enlightened ones too....and it's them who I will support unconditionally through thick and thin.
1
If the result of any possible impeachment is President Mike Pence, how exactly is that a coup in the eyes of evangelical voters? I would think rather it would be a pleasant outcome for them.
152
@Stephen S. Pence will only last a few month. Totally insignificant.
4
@Stephen S.
Most evangelicals want to be able to eat lunch with a woman they’re not married to. That morality thing only goes so far.
3
@KMW
Let me correct that for you:
‘So if the Republicans do not like the final results of a presidential election, they will impeach the Democratic president. This is a very dangerous move for our country. We live in a democracy where the candidate who wins the electoral college is the president. This is in the constitution but that means very little to Republicans. We should all be afraid if the Republicans succeed. You must have a reason to impeach and the Republicans do not have one. The reason they want to get rid of a duly elected president is that they hate him and his policies. The people disagree.’
Lying about infidelity.....vs using the leverage of presidential power to sabotage future election results by inviting foreign countries to persecute the president’s political rivals. Which is more alarming and deserving of impeachment?
If you think trump’s (admitted) action is less of a transgression than Clinton’s.......then we are in a new era where the world is welcomed to participate in our elections by any candidate or incumbent.
4
Scare-mongering -- and naive, to boot.
The ominous quotes from Trump are all marked by familiar 'tells', verbal quirks that signal a turn into fantasy land. "Believe me," he proclaims, and "I can tell you," the latter referring to putative support by the police, military, and (comically) bikers.
Edsall amplifies the dread by rumbling on about the US military, which is in reality a solidly professional outfit from top to bottom, not a rag-bag of conspiratorial 'colonels' who are going to send troops into the street. He also overlooks the gigantic disparity in efficacy between modern military weapons and the light arms possessed in futile quantity by the deluded, disorganized 'militias'.
Finally, like so much of the media discourse, he ratchets up the anxiety by focusing narrowly on Trump followers rather than on the views of the overwhelming majority --- which includes the core population that sustains the country and drives it forward.
"How far are those supporters willing to go to keep him in the White House?" They don't have that superpower and they know it. It's time to get real.
5
Maybe someone should ask Trump what he intends on doing when his constitutional term ends.
1
"So there you have it: I despise the man, worry that he will make terrible foreign policy blunders, but from my perspective policies under Trump are vastly superior to the policies that would be pursued by the leading Democratic candidates. It’s a Hobson’s choice.--Charles Murray"
I see that Mr. Bell Curve holds repugnant views after all these years. So a graduate of Harvard and MIT like Murray thinks that all things considered, Donald Trump is a better choice for president than Elizabeth Warren?
Can people in America PLEASE stop assuming that academic pedigree means anything? Warren graduated from a pair of "lowly" public universities (University of Houston and Rutgers Law School) and she clearly possesses greater intelligence and more common sense than a pair of Ivy League graduates like Donald Trump and Charles Murray.
6
Trump doth protest too much.
His "Second Amendment" rants, his ignoring of the Constitution (both its terse text and its spirit), his calls to arms, his accusations of treason against those who don't support him, his attacks on the media, his attacks on long-standing norms, his threats to not leave office if impeached or voted out, his courting of foreign leaders to rig elections, his (politically and financially) self-serving lies, his pleas to foreign leaders to undermine America's counterintelligence agencies, his giving aid and comfort to our enemies, his turning the Justice Department into a political hit squard all leads to this inescapable conclusion:
Tis Donald Trump who is staging a coup.
5
The irony is that if the far right's dreams come true and Trump names himself President for Life, one of his acts will be to take their guns. No dictator wants a huge number of armed citizens running around. They are a threat to his forces, what if they decide that they no longer like his policies?
If this happens it will be the end of America. We will have internal fighting, we will have various states deciding they want no part of this mess. I would expect the West Coast States: Washington, Oregon, California to be among the first to leave. Their combined GDP would make them a formidable country. We will also have foreign nations looking at our turmoil and deciding now might be a good time to grab something.
I hope I am fearing something that will never happen, but for the first time since the Civil War, there is a possibility of our country tearing apart.
I found I had stopped breathing when I read Charles Murray's comments - and had to read them twice more. If his truly shocking views are not challenged and resisted to the utmost, then the future of America is lost.
5
So ..educational... to read about something that isn't about Trump's latest spasm, but rather is about the larger context. I'm with Frey, I'm an optimist. Though very dangerous, the shrillness of Trump and his supporters examplifies their isolation, backwardness, paranoia and dwindling influence.Mind you, you don't mention the urban/rural split in worldview and the broad rage at failed neo-liberal policies... not to metion climate change's influence in future scenarios.
1
"Will Trump ever leave the White House?" is more than just a loaded question -- it's a very realistic one.
And we've already been provided with the answer by Michael Cohen, Trump's former personal lawyer who stated at his hearing: "I fear if Donald Trump is not reelected in 2020 there will be no peaceful transition."
Those words haunt me as much now, as they did then because Trump is clearly someone who never backs down, and more importantly, he never changes.
He's also been a bona fide racist all his life who has shown nothing but contempt for any law that promotes equality and civil rights.
It's no mere coincidence that he supports the NRA and the second Amendment and that in turn, he's supported by every white nationalist and supremacist group out there.
It's also no mere coincidence that Trump has consistently held his rallies in mid-western and southern states where the population tends to be overwhelmingly rural and WHITE.
It should alarm every American -- and not just those of color like myself to see this happening, along with the fact that within the last two and a half years this president has done everything to consolidate power over the Justice Department, Senate and the Supreme Court, and ignore the Constitution.
History has already taught us what happens when one man lusts after and gains absolute power over a nation, and subsequently the world.
But have we learned anything from it?
3
After Trump was elected, I submitted an online comment to this publication stating that Trump would not leave office voluntarily, under any circumstances. My comment met with ridicule by other commenters. I was told I was being paranoid. I was told, in January 2017, that our Constitution would "save us" - that our system of checks and balances would "save us".
But it was clear to me then, and it is clear to me now, that Trump will leave only at a time of his choosing. I said when he took office that his vote was based on white racism, and that whites would do anything to keep him in office. Again, my comment was met with derision. But as Mr. Edsall reports, my concerns have not been farfetched at all.
Most American independents and Democrats have been deluding themselves for nearly three years now. I'm honestly at a loss to understand why, as Trump's agenda was clear to me then. He hasn't changed, and his voters haven't changed.
And three years on, in this disaster of a presidency, his supporters are still in lockstep with him. Why? Because they do not care how many felonies he commits, as long as he tells them that as whites, they are the "real" Americans, and the rest of us must accept the scraps of second class citizenship.
Trump voters' concerns about feeling "left behind" are all a ruse. These comments were polite talk for covering their real motivation - racism. They now have a man who is "their" president and they'll do anything to keep him in the Oval Office.
8
@DB Cooper
I hear you. There were a number of popular commenters here and on similar comment pages who stoutly argued a line of reasoning that ranged from "Trump is a needed tonic, a shaker-upper of the system" to "He will fall in line and become presidential, the grown-ups will run the government." Those of us with a darker - and more realistic view, it turns out - were often dismissed, even ridiculed. It gives me no pleasure to say "I told you so."
3
None of these responses take into account Donald Trump's physical cowardice. When he loses the election next year, he will bluster, but he won't actually launch a coup.
There will be a crop of incidents like the guy who went to the Comet Ping Pong pizzeria, but there will be no organized resistance to the peaceful transfer of power.
5
Gosh, look at that picture of Trump’s supposed army. They obviously lack a decent physically demanding boot camp...tailored uniforms..and some kind of helmet would help opposing bullets. (Yes, I predict there will be an opposition to this army.)
More of a worry would be if Trump was surrounding himself with actual military folk in the White House. That did initially go on at the start of his presidency but my understanding is those people moved on in the name of sanity.
5
Will he leave the White House? If necessary, armed Federal Marshalls will take care of it.
Doesn't matter. No Federal agency will take instructions from a former president even if he is still sitting at his old desk.
A disturbing article, but perhaps better to consider worst case scenarios than not. Trump's presidency has already devolved in directions that earlier commentators missed. He has recurrently portrayed the press as the "enemy of the people;" he has vilified immigrants and Muslims; he has called the Whistle-blower and a member of congress "treasonous." So we must stay alert, hyper-alert. And we must do everything we can to convince the Republican members of Congress to put country before Trump. So far this hasn't happened. And, if the GOP Senators do not begin to speak out against Trump soon, history will not remember them kindly.
1
How realistic is David Leege’s scenario that Trump would call on his “2nd Amendment friends” – the country is “armed to the hilt” – and the “patriots” who constitute the military to rise up and defend his presidency, should he be voted out of office or be impeached?
Trump always denies any wrongdoing. His narcissism urges him to outdo Hillary Clinton: “she’s guilty of a very, very serious crime. She should not be allowed to run.”
Yet he believes that voters don’t care about the crimes he commits and still has the GOP and right-wing media support. But much can emerge during impeachment inquiry that could have an impact on the wider public. This might help change Senate Republicans’ minds.
He says he can rely on the police, the military, “the Bikers for Trump” for support, suggesting they are “tough people, but they don’t play it tough until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad.”
He knows that power is all about instilling fear. He would even "burn the house down" and take the country down with him, should he be ousted. This doesn't show strength and confidence, but weakness and fear. I just hope that enough Americans can resist this fearmongering and get rid of him asap.
A potential military “coup” staged by “colonels, not generals?” Ultimately the military men would be forced to choose between the code of values that they had followed during their professional careers and those of a crook and reality TV show star.
3
I'm so tired of the reactionary obstructive antics of the red state House and Senate members that if they want a rerun of 1861, I'd say let those states secede and try to go it alone without the subsidies they receive from the blue states.
Let them learn the hard way that "big government" is responsible for their Social Security (actually, people can get SS payments in many foreign countries, so recipients wouldn't be affected), Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, federal highway money, etc.
Yes, I know that all states are actually purple, but perhaps without the grandstanding of the red state Congress critters, we in the blue states could drag our rural and exurban residents kicking and screaming into the 21st century. (Here in Minnesota, Republican legislators are opposed to rural broadband and other measures that could make their towns more attractive to business. Go figure.)
I know I'm being harsh and unrealistic, but that's my emotional reaction to regions that seem determined to remain as mean and ignorant as possible.
3
I'm an old (69) white guy. I cannot for the life of me understand why a 'minority' representative wouldn't represent me, too. The U.S. has been blessed with great leaders of color (Barbara Jordan, anyone?) who acted in the best interest of ALL the people.
A United States where whites were in the minority would still be a great country - with liberty and justice for ALL!
3
If Trump refuses to leave the White House when his term is up one way or the other, then the easiest thing to do is to have the White House leave him. There is no law that says the President has to live in the White House. So if Trump refuses to leave the White House, the next President can set up the "White House" at Camp David or anywhere else in the country he or she pleases, and the utilities at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue (don't forget the wifi) can be shut off.
1
Think about this folks. IF Trump were to barricade himself in the WH would that make him president?. The WH is a residence, it's not the office. If he refused to leave the newly elected president could either evict him or set up shop somewhere else until Trump got tired and went home. This type of article shows how TDS has eliminated critical thinking on the left. Let's say he gets impeached and refuses to leave the WH. Pence would still be president.
It's perfectly legitimate to think that in a close election either side might contest the results. But it would have to be the electoral vote that would be at issue and it would have to be close. A recount in one or more states where the vote is close and would affect the electoral vote might be called for by either side.
And it's possible that those on the right may act badly if Trump loses or impeached, much like the left has since Nov 2016. It can be foretold with certainty that a Republican controlled congress will not pass any legislation from a dem president and will spend it's time looking to justify impeachment.
The only thing that won't happen is the MSM won't spend all of its time attacking the new dem president -- should that happen.
@Ralphie
This is not about what happens if Trump barricades himself in one of the White House bathrooms.
You could use a few of those critical thinking skills yourself.
1
I'm less worried about Tiki torch bearing mobs than I am about people like Charles Murray.
Even if in Murray’s view, “a Warren or Sanders presidency would be a disaster for the nation.” at least there would be a nation left to have a disaster in.
It's the people who think progressive policies are more of an existential threat to the country than Trump who are the real danger to this country. Anyone willing to use anti-democratic means to further their narrow interest - gerrymandering, voter suppression, naked politicization of the courts, propping up an evidently insane autocrat as President - are destroying the country. And for what? To preserve a low tax low regulation environment? Incredible.
427
@MEP - Well said. I'm tired of seeing the view Murray expressed presented as rational. It's like saying, 'Yes, this chocolate ice cream has strychnine in it, but I would still rather have it than the vanilla.' Worse--he's willing to feed it to everyone else. As you said, even if you think a Sanders-Warren America would be a disaster, at least there would be an America to have a disaster in.
47
@MEP This is an important point.
To translate Murray into the starkest terms:
Representative democracy has become an immoral means to legally confiscate the wealth created by the rich, and has, therefore, lost its legitimacy.
Trump, for all his narcissism, has enabled legislation and a judiciary that pushes back against the evils of "redistribution" and is far preferable than falling further into the traps set by Franklin Roosevelt.
The Oldest Deal (conceding the banning of slavery) as conceived by the Framers allocated most power to the Propertied (a group that anyone of sufficient talent and ambition may join in America).
That's the core of liberty that was and should be the motivating ethos of this country. To permanently lose that would occur under a President Sanders or Warren, a far greater tragedy than another term of President Autopen.
18
@Eben - That core liberty is at risk of disappearing for most people (I'll allow this is not the case for you, or you would have noticed) specifically because of America's failure to curb outsize wealth and power. If you carve up a pie and every year one person takes more and more of the slices with the unashamed goal of eventually having them all, it's no longer true that 'anyone' can be a pie owner in any meaningful way. It's the American disease that we believe having a shot at huge, unfettered personal wealth is more important than having healthcare, pensions and bridges that don't collapse.
We are rapidly reaching the point at which the average American can't even own a mobile home (mobile home courts have turned into yet another investment vehicle for the rich--another 'property' conveyed to the same tiny number of grasping hands). Making $60k a year in Portland, OR, I am one of the 'propertied' only because I bought a house in 2000 for $110k which is now worth over $500k. Wages haven't kept pace.
32
My worry is that he will use an executive order to suspend the 2020 elections citing some made up national emergency, and the GOP will let him.
Having served in the military, I very much doubt that our top military officers would follow Trump were he removed or voted out of office. While his supporters could cause significant problems they could not hold sway enough to take over the government. Moreover there are clear and established procedures for transfer of power that requires the support of the entire government apparatus. If government officials refuse unlawful orders on a wide scale nothing can move.
That said, we do have to push back on even the thought that Trump and his supporters would consider such a thing. Our Constitution is treasured by the American people and they would not stand for an assault on it. Our founding fathers gave us a system that might not be perfect but it is one that we will and can defend.
OK..I'll bite..
Let's say for the sake of argument , worse case scenario , a ticket of Warren and Harris wins on election night 270-268. one month later the Electorial College meets and say certifies the results... a tumultuous endeavor...but yep..270-268. Then one month later Vice President Pence says yep 270-268. None of the above even involves the President's wishes to stay. Then January 20,2021 comes and then what? Trump will arrest John Roberts to prevent him from administering the oath? Yes Trump will leave and it will be the ugliest transition in history , but then our long national nightmare will finally be over.
87
@Sean Peterson - You're talking about a man who claims to have absolute power & talks about serving as many terms as he wants. Ironically, Trump, who benefited from a rigged election featuring widespread voter suppression & illegal help from an adversarial power, has already been building a "case" to call any election he might lose "rigged." He is perfectly capable of declaring the election illegal by his own judgment, declaring Martial Law, disbanding Congress & calling out the troops - both the military & the millions of heavily armed alt-right diehards. Trump knows the first minute after he loses the immunity of the Oval Office, prosecutors & civil complainants will be in a feeding frenzy to be the first to charge him with crimes from slander to terrorist threats against his opponents & investigators. If the military decides he's still their Commander-In-Chief (& the top military were appointed because of loyalty to MAGA, not USA), we will see the end of the 240-year plus "magnificant experiment called democracy. Will there be enough Americans brave enough to fight to keep democracy, or will we roll over as people in Germany did in 1933? Be afraid. Be very afraid.
12
@Sean Peterson You call that the worst case scenario?
4
@Sean Peterson from your lips . . . let's hope that is the worst case scenario.
2
Let's assume that impeachment passes in the House but fails in the Senate and Trump is then narrowly defeated in the 2020 election. As soon as the result is officially declared, Trump claims that the election was rigged by the clandestine operators of the deep state together with the DNC. What would happen then?
Trump legally remains the President during the transition period of two months. What powers would he have, legally and politically, to contest the officially declared result and to insist that the Inauguration of the Democratic President be cancelled? Could he appeal to the Supreme Court to nullify the result and require another election while he continued in office?
Does the Bush-Gore dispute of the close result of their election in Florida provide any insights? In that case, Gore, was gracious in accepting the Supreme Court's decision which Trump would never be if he lost.
This outcome does not seem far-fetched. I imagine mass protests of his furious supporters outside the White House with angry counter-demonstrators, police trying to keep them apart, and several incidents of violence with arrests on both sides.
I'd appreciate it if Thomas Edsall would ask the experts he consulted in this article what the legal and political consequences of this scenario might be for American democracy.
2
It only seems as if he has been there forever. Surely, even members of his most besotted base will have had enough. Or has he also broken the old laws: familiarity breeds contempt or pride goes before the fall.
Those who don't believe he will be kicking and screaming when dragged out of office are naive. How did he ever get there in the first place is the absurdity of the century. So far.
And, in case you might have missed it, we are in a civil war. The radical right hates moderates and the left. And the feeling is mutual.
3
After Trump was elected, I submitted an online comment to this publication stating that Trump would not leave office voluntarily, under any circumstances. My comment met with ridicule by other commenters. I was told I was being paranoid. I was told, in January 2017, that our Constitution would "save us" - that our system of checks and balances would "save us".
But it was clear to me then, and it is clear to me now, that Trump will leave only at a time of his choosing. I said when he took office that his vote was based on white racism, and that whites would do anything to keep him in office. Again, my comment was met with derision.
But as Mr. Edsall reports, my concerns have not been farfetched at all. Most American independents and Democrats have been deluding themselves for nearly three years now. I'm honestly at a loss to understand why, as Trump's agenda was clear to me then. He hasn't changed, and his voters haven't changed.
And three years on, in this disaster of a presidency, his supporters are still in lockstep with him. Why? Because they do not care how many felonies he commits, as long as he tells them that as whites, they are the "real" Americans, and the rest of us must accept the scraps of second class citizenship. Trump voters' concerns about feeling "left behind" are all a ruse. These comments were polite talk for covering their real motivation - racism. They now have a man who is "their" president and they'll do anything to keep him in the Oval Office.
@DB Cooper
I am not one of those who treated your comments with derision. But, then as now, I believe that while Trump might dig his heels in and demand some sort of 'insurrection' from his supporters, chances are nil that he will succeed.
He just doesn't have enough supporters. He didn't then, and he's lost many over these last three years.
Personally, I wish for an amicable divorce from red America. Their outlook on life, on morality, on truth, on equality is, to put it simply, based on pure selfishness. There isn't a true Christian in the lot of them. If they think Trump is their Messiah, they can just move on and take him with them. Oh, and they can take Fox Fake News with them, too.
But, only if we split into two independent nations. Under no circumstances will we who are not members of his rabid, delusional base accept a permanent Trump presidency. I don't care what they try to do, they will fail.
1
There is minority rule throughout the world and among our allies. If you don't believe we are in danger of more of a minority rule, think again. The actions of the Republican Party since at least the Powell memorandum have been to destroy democracy. Talk radio is now spewing the 'Constitutional Republicans' bit, where the argument is exactly against democratic rule by the majority. Add the radical courts (yes, the radical Roberts too), the one sided talk radio, the corporate media, the voter suppression, the oligarchs and foreign support for the strongman, the personality cult by the religious and no media mention of a Dear Leader giving Stochastic terroristic messages to his followers, etc., and it doesn't look so good. Did you think there would even be such a discussion before the Trump election?
The answer to the question your headline poses, Mr. Edsall is, I believe, yes.
I'd prefer to see Mr. Trump walk out of the White House in disgrace, having been impeached, convicted,and thrown out of office. And -- once he was off the White House grounds -- indicted for crimes for which he would have to stand trial.
But I will not object if he's dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming and foaming at the mouth, having lost the 2020 election but refusing to acknowledge his defeat. Either way: the "walk out with dignity;" or the "haul out with shrieking," it must be done legally. There must be no question in the minds of our citizens that Trump has been served with legal due process.
Mr. Trump may harbor the delusion that he is empowered to do anything he pleases. So far, the law has held firm and disabused him of that fantasy when appropriate. I do not doubt the courts' ability to administer justice in the face of threat; nor do I doubt the US Military's resolution to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution.
2
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,/ And by opposing, end them?" Hamlet
Please quit giving this loud, obnoxious bully so much credit. When it's time for him to go, through impeachment or an election loss, the secret service will march him off the premises without breaking a sweat. Also, please get over the fantasy that the U.S. military would in any way act differently than they are now. "Support the troops" indeed.
4
Worst case scenario, he’ll leave at the end of his second term. It’s a matter of when not if.
1
A nightmare scenario, to be sure, but I can't help but think that the populations along both our coasts, as well as Pennsylvania and the Upper Midwest (Minnesota, the Dakotas) along with Colorado, perhaps Montana, and the desert Southwest of New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada would rise up to demand Trump's forceful removal from office.
Thus leaving the states of the Old Confederacy, along with Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio and Missouri, as the locus of the Trump fever. The one huge variable is Texas. Filled with guns, to be sure, and with a deeply conservative state government, but also fiercely patriotic.
And about all those guns. Would a majority of Americans take yp arms against their friends and neighbors to keep Donald Trump in office? Would they shoot to kill Army troops and National Guard service members? On behalf of Trump? Would they put their families, businesses and future at risk on behalf of Donald Trump?
I'd like to think not.
4
I think the President will resign and it will be a surprise to everyone, even his family and so-called closest advisors, and leave people hanging because his past history is just that.
He will bluster, threaten, take an intractable position and swear to never give up until there is no escape, or unless his financial condition may be exposed, then he will change his position suddenly, so that he can claim victory or spin it his way; even in resigning from the Presidency.
2
When I raised my hand to take my first oath in 1983, I swore to obey “all lawful orders.” I was struck then, at the caveat. In the next 30 years of active duty, was I ever given an unlawful order? You bet. An officer’s integrity isn’t required most of the time; 99.9% of the men and women in uniform are honestly trying to do the best job they can. But once in a great while some guy would issue an order that either violated a regulation or was simply unethical. That’s when you put your shoulder boards at risk. That’s when you earned your pay.
Now I’m working for the federal government. I don’t intend on violating a regulation or carrying out an unlawful order now. If you want to call me a member of the “Deep State,” go ahead. But I will not be intimidated by threats. And if the POTUS calls an election result or an impeachment a fraud and won’t leave, believe me, I’ll make him.
3
Here's a question more than a comment: if necessary, would there be someone to go to the Oval Office and gently ask the president, should he clearly lose the election, to vacate the premises before Jan. 20, 2021? The Secret Service, maybe? Or is this such unknown territory that there is no clear process?
Ah, that's what Blair House is for. Temporarily establish a government there, and cut off the electricity to the White House. Establish a cordon around the WH, and allow people to leave--but not return. The Trump dead-enders would still have their cellphones, but after a few hours, not even those. Then watch them slink and slither out . . .
This discussion is an indictnent of our political culture and consciousness. The reality is that a significant portion of our population, especially those who claim to be religious, are opposed to democracy and to the rule of law.
1
I raised this issue in 2016 in a NYT comment section. It is plain from his sociopathy, if he's gotten something valuable for himself, he's not going to give it up. What's legal doesn't matter to a criminal. He won't give up the Presidency. Let's not beat around the bush with speculation.
Please, I wish Times writers and others would stop referring to "Fox News." It's not Fox News, it's Rupert Murdoch, the Australian media mogul, now in America, who is stealing the truth, just as Trump, from our daily information sources. He's the boss of bosses at Fox. Don't allow Murdoch to hide behind "Fox News."
4
Oh, please.
Talk about conspiracy theories.
Trump hasn't even failed to comply with decisions of lower courts. Andrew Jackson refused to comply with the ruling of the Supreme Court no less. Somehow the Republic survived.
Trump is not going to comply with the election result?
I'm sorry, this "question" is just crackpot.
3
@frankly0 I hope you're right.
I have somewhat more faith in the military and other governmental institutions than does the author. While it's clear that a large majority of military folks support Trump (exactly why is a mystery, given his history of draft-dodging and comparing whatever it is he's done in life to the sacrifices made by military personnel--not to mention taking away money to support its members and their families to invest in his vanity border wall), I believe that they will adhere to their constitutional oath and follow orders to remove him from the White House if the Senate were to vote his removal from office.
The question is: what will Pence do? Will he give the order that the constitutional outcome demands? Will he even take the oath or back Trump's illegitimate claim to remain? The Veep's entire career indicates that he'll do whatever is in Mike Pence's best interest. He eventually wants Trump's blessing to succeed him at the end of Trump's presidency.
Ordering Trump's physical removal would deeply anger Trump's base, likely denying Pence any chance of winning election on his own. Negotiating Trump's voluntary departure from the White House he would no longer possess any legal claim to--e.g., granting him a full pardon--will anger the overwhelming majority of the public.
Most public servants would abide by their promise to support and defend the Constitution, even if the outcome is politically disadvantageous.
But we're talking about Trump and Pence...
2
A few years ago, I mentioned to a friend that based on a daily barrage of news articles and ferocious political pronouncements, the rise of Trump, and most importantly Tribalist Politics, that I could actually imagine a civil war. I thought at the time that my concern arose from my own anxiety about the newly elected President, but since then a proverbial drumbeat of essay writers have registered their thoughtful ideas on the matter. I don't think we are about to revisit 1864, but we should be thinking about how not to let it happen. Trump if he loses the election will leave the Whitehouse, and I believe if he needs help the Generals who once worked for him will help him pack.
1
I have been predicting for some time now that Trump will never willingly leave the White House. My family members think I am exaggerating when I say that he will still be in the White House come the end of January 2021. Who or what institution will remove him is the question, and an extremely serious one it is.
3
During the past year I have been telling friends that I fear that if Trump loses the election, he will contend it was fixed and refuse to leave office. They have all pretty much downplayed my concerns.
It is good (or perhaps bad) that there are scholars in the fields of politics and the presidency who share my concerns.
1
This seems like a good example of another thing that was not anticipated by the framers of the Constitution. We need to update our constitution for the 21st Century to ensure our laws do a better job of reflecting the needs of the US populace today. We should also call on the House to propose a law now with regard to the orderly transition of power after a chief executive is voted out of office, with specific procedures and timeline for that executive's removal, and by whom, and in what manner, if said chief executive throws up obstacles to a timely exit.
4
Terrifying. This article only hardens my ongoing efforts to immigrate to another, and actually democratic, country.
4
My number one fear has Trump selling us to slavery.
However, I wouldn't put it beneath him, especially given the campaign on the Fox frenzied right to delegitimize the democrats.
So the blue states and the red states would face off after a contested election.
Can easily happen however much it sounds like fiction
1
This is insane. Once we have the election, the civil servants, who work for the U.S. Government, not the Trump Organization, will begin the transition process as they always do. The Secret Service do not work for DJT. If he loses next year, Trump will be escorted from the premises on 1/20/2021 on his way to Palm Beach.
One other thought....If you are a Republican, the last place you want to try and stage a coup is D.C. There are few friendly people in the vicinity (understatement) and our nation is not organized to stop 10,000 people from jumping the fence at the White House.
5
It is time to cut off Trump’s access to Twitter. Every Twitter comment he makes agitates and aggravates the psyches of his supporters in ways that are illogical, overly emotional and dangerous to the stability of our governance.
He can and will continue to have airwaves access but he will have to do it through news conferences and answering questions. Trump Twitters now are the equivalent of four hour harangues by dictators and they run seemingly round the the clock.
5
It floors me that people talk of an impeachment inquiry as "overturning the result of the 2016 election". Have they not noticed they're 3 years into the 4-year term of the Trump presidency? Or have they stopped the clocks while they await the Wall, the infrastucture bill, and the amazing new healthcare law?
5
And of course a sub-text here is that there are over 100,000,000 assault weapons in the country overwhelmingly owned by Trump supporters. I'm a combat veteran and I know what those weapons do to a human body. They could literally mow down the opposition even though there are more of us than them. They could easily put a defense around the White House if Trump loses and who in society would remove them? The military, which is predominantly populated by Trump supporters, especially the Marines. I hope the optimists here are correct, or we will have a second Civil War.
When you listen to the current language coming out of the Trump supporters in the House (e.g. Jim Jordan, Steve Scalise, et al) and the Senate, I believe there would be an attempted coup and he would not go quietly.
The Republicans have consistently shown that they really don't care whit about the Constitution, the rule of law, and basic ethics. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Don't kid yourself, we could see an open rebellion particularly in places like the deep South. Remember, the civil war never really ended, it just morphed into something else: Jim Crow, political and economic war on people of color, and discrimination.
We have seen this film before. Germany in the 1930's. It can happen here. The right is armed to the teeth and I would bet, because the current government does not see white nationalism as a threat, that there are cells out there where guys in camouflage armed with AK-47s are training as I write.
1
Right-wingers frequently oppose their opponents of doing what they are doing (or are planning to do). Right-wingers frequently claim that "liberals" are going to take away their guns. Connect the dots.
1
His own former lawyer and close associate Michael Cohen testified under oath in March that he did not think knowing Trump he would voluntarily leave office even if he lost the 2020 election.
1
Recently in a history course, as I finished my degree, I lamented that we would see violence on the part of Trump supporters before all was said and done. The professor quickly asked "Do you mean violence such as pipe bombs sent to Democrats and others?"
We are already there, folks.
6
Even though by our own somewhat unacceptable rules Mr Trump was ushered into the Oval Office we the people of whatever political stripe will not put up with any dictatorial moves on his part. This isn't who we are.
4
I can only comment from my narrow view from my white wealthy upper middle class suburb. They usually vote for Republicans and would likely vote for Trumph if Warren or Saunders were the candidate. It would be a toss up if Biden or maybe one or two other Dems were on the ballot. That is why Trumph's handlers are trying so hard to destroy Biden. Because of his age Biden should be careful who he selects for Veep. If Trump were to loose and refused to go quietly I don't think my neighbors would do anything but take down their yard sign, they are too comfortable to join an insurrection.
At my sportsman's (gun) club the officers were, in the past, vocally against Obama and Dems (I keep my thoughts to myself). Lately they have been mostly quiet since Trumph has shown his true self and most members would just quietly go about their business when he was removed from office
3
Mr. Edsall again tries to make his case that Republicans have more of a fear of a non-white majority in America, and by inference that means their support of Trump is based on racial fears, but no ethnic, social, or racial group ever gives up their power to dominate a society easily. That is just against human nature. To expect them to do so is the same kind of liberal political fantasy that expects sending people to diversity classes is actually going to have an effect on people's tribal behaviors. The backbone of human history is the battle for power to enable your chosen group to survive, and to predominate. It is a mistake to discredit this primal urge with a mere political diagnosis.
3
In Bush v Gore, our Supreme Court essentially decided that Bush won Florida. If the 2020 election is close in any state, we could have another instance of SCOTUS picking the winner. It's not hard to imagine that some justices on the current court would be inclined to put their thumbs on the scale of justice in Trump's favor.
3
Being in office shields Trump from prosecution so he is going to want to stay in office. But, I don't think he is going to be able to, and I don't think he is really very popular, whatever he says.
1
Instead of fearing civil war and bloodshed, how about just agreeing to disagree and get on with the evolution of the country into autonomous regions, or countrie
If half or a third of the country wants to live in a theocratic autocracy, go for it. But I don't, and would gladly live in Cascadia, or California.
The political structures we were bequeathed - such as the Senate and the Electoral - have created minority rule. This rule is unsustainable - just consider the prospect of Trump losing the popular vote by even greater margins in 2020, but winning the Electoral College.
But no need for violence - let's just agree to establish regions/countries that reflect the widely divergent values of each, and be done with it.
5
@Space Needle
Been saying this for years. Not many folks seem to be buying it.
I recall the former governor of Puerto Rico resisting overwhelming calls demanding that he vacate the office. He defiantly refused, insisting that he would complete his term. Then he peeked though his curtains and saw a million citizens in the street protesting his refusal to leave. He was gone before the curtains closed.
If Trump takes a similar stance as the former governor after being impeached or defeated in the 2020 election, he will experience a similar result.
1
None of the Democratic candidates including Warren and Sanders would seek to undermine the Constitution with its separation of powers, nor would a preponderance of Democrats support them if they did. Charles Murray has bought into a nightmare myth of progressives whose counterpart in reality is Donald Trump and the Trump/Republican Party. No rogue Democrat would have minions of armed forces ready to execute his or her will - Trump might very well have. Trump's warning of a possible civil war is a personal threat, not a reality -based warning of possible action by his opposition.
5
I just wonder about the mechanics. If Trump, and perhaps other members of his family or staff, are actually standing in the White House refusing to leave, whose job is it to physically remove them? How does that happen? I hope there is some planning going on.
3
@Andrea Ryan The Secret Service will remove the former president from the premises. They work for the people.
This entire topic is nuts
yes he will leave, one way or another - no more than 2 terms, no matter what, by that time they have all outstayed their welcome and in his case, that has already arrived with the speed of light and twitter
3
Based on my reading of this article and the comments, it is obvious that paranoia cuts both ways. While I do not want to be dismissive, I still think it is time to take a giant step back, get a grip and identify what we must do. Any other approach would be self-defeating and paralyze us, which is actually what Trump hopes to accomplish.
I do not believe that the Senate will vote to convict, so Trump will have to face the electorate in 2020. The House will have done its duty, but it will be up to the people to resoundingly reject Trump and everything for which he stands. If you have never contributed to a political campaign before, it will be your time to contribute. If you have contributed in the past, contribute two or three times as much for the 2020 election. And then, of course, we must have a massive turnout that will hand Trump a defeat that will be incontestable. The Electoral College will take its vote and the President will be out of power.
There is not a ghost of a chance that the military would support Trump if he loses the election. He might choose to physically remain in the White House, but he will have no power. If he tries to rally his supporters, he will be guilty of sedition and be appropriately tried after the military removes him. This will not be pretty, but our Democracy will continue and our government, including the military, will bring this shameful period to an end.
11
This is laughable paranoia. What might happen if the house votes for articles of impeachment is that the right adopts the tactics of the left with antifa and occupy wall street behavior. They will also likely adapt Maxine Waters directive to confront those they oppose politically in public places, make it uncomfortable for them to go out of their homes. Or perhaps even protest outside their homes.
But Trump not leaving if he loses the election? That's funny coming from the left which has contested the 2016 election since Trump won, refusing to accept those results and grasping at any device to get Trump out of office, disenfranchise those who voted for him, etc. If the senate votes to impeach? He'll have no choice but to go.
Anyone who thinks the military would back Trump in a coup probably has never been in the military or regards the military with disdain.
And Charles Murray is right. Regardless of how they feel about Trump personally, many voters will vote for him because what the dems offer is not good for the country -- at least a majority of the country will think so. A centrist like Biden could win, but he is the only centrist with a chance and he has significant issues and probably won't win the dem nomination. He has issues with corruption for certain but his apparent mental decline and lack of energy are big problems. Plus, he won't motivate the left base.
8
@Ralphie
"the right adopts the tactics of the left with antifa and occupy wall street behavior. "
In doing so, at least we can see in the flesh who the Anti Constitutionalists, or AntiCons, are in this country.
Those still supporting 45 are now known as AntiCons.
@Ralphie
It’s interesting that you list almost verbatim all of the talking point trump has made about Biden. “Mental decline, lack of energy, corruption”
It’s true that the human brain is easily swayed when it has a tv station or president repeating these mantra over and over.
It’s almost as if supporters of trump are tape machines that just play back the tape they hear day after day.
Such an amazing phenomenon to witness- all the while they project onto the dems all the qualities they themselves possess exactly as trump does.
The similarities to 1938 berlin are incredibly striking and I’d say if there were still people alive who experienced that period of history as adults (of which now most are 90+ in age) they’d also say the psychological brain Washing of the masses, in this case trump supporters, bears striking similarities to the support hitler got even as Berlin fell, his supporters considered him almost the messiah. Trump illicits similar admiration.
Did anyone consider the possibility that in early or mid-2020, if it becomes clear that Trump is lagging behind in all polls, especially a poll from Fox, he might sign an Executive order calling off elections, or worse still, declaring himself President for life. Nothing is too far fetched in the current administration. Show me one instance of Trump following the rule of law, as defined in Constitution. He asserts executive privilege for every single request or subpoena (despite the claim his admin has been "very transparent throughout" )
6
Two things.
First, the religious leaders of the evangelical Christians need to remind their followers what being a Christian is truly supposed to be. It's not to harm people or kill people. Let's look at the Ten Commandments, for starters. Democrats need to recruit evangelical leaders who are likely to remind people of Christian values, call Trump out on the propaganda, and denounce any call for violence. Show their followers that their biggest thread to their livelihoods and ability to pay their mortgages is the corporations they work for. C'mon religions know how to brainwash their populations. Do it for good!
Second, Elizabeth and Bernie are not wrong about wealth and corporations. But we need a way to turn people's attentions to what really hurts them economically without getting called trigger words that make them recoil. Raise questions. Don't even talk about Trump. Ask them what they see in their daily lives, their personal experiences with corporate influence. People are susceptible to Trump's suggestions when they don't question him with suspicion.
3
In world history, no system of government wasn't eventually overthrown. We're stepping up to that plate now.
4
Thank you, Mr Edsall....this is a very provocative piece; something we should read over and over again. It is frightening how divided this country is.
Because, all my life, I've lived in neighborhoods that were well integrated by several ethnic/cultural differences, I am at a loss to understand the very narrow "white Christian" attitude toward others who are not like themselves. The most stubborn aspect, as I see it, is that the most "closed" group in America will not allow themselves to become acquainted with "others;" they are insulating themselves in their own ignorance, afraid to venture away from the womb of fundamentalism and anachronistic segregation.
How is this perpetuated in the 21st Century? SAD!
2
Mr. Edsall, please stop debasing yourself and the experts on your speed-dial with foolish questions about whether Trump would agree to leave the Presidency after a removal vote in the Senate (which is highly unlikely anyway) or a clear-cut loss in the 2020 elections. In either case, the choice will not be his nor will it be up to some rogue Army colonels as if there was no difference between the United States and Venezuela. Maintain your focus on actual issues that affect actual people in the present day. If an impeachment vote happens and a removal is likely, or if this time next year looks like a close Election Day, then you can canvass your listeners on the likelihood of Trump leaving office or not.
6
I can’t quite tell if this article and its many quotes are referring to Trump refusing to acknowledge the results of a impeachment trial in the Senate or the results of the 2020 election. These are quite different. While I doubt that the GOP Senate majority will ever vote to remove Trump from office, if something earth-shattering caused that, Trump would leave office. By definition, he would have lost his GOP supporters in the Senate and they would quickly rally around the new president, Mike Pence, to try to win in 2020 and continue their consolidation of right-wing power while exorcising the ugliness of Trump.
I think the 2020 election is much more problematic. I see no reason to believe that Trump will accept the results of an election loss unless it is monumental. If it’s close, I expect lawsuits to be filed in every state that opposes Trump, or maybe in every state, claiming voter fraud, incorrect vote tallies, etc. I expect that the DoJ will come down squarely on the side of Trump. I expect that every GOP-led state would sue itself to void the will of its own citizens, just as they have tried to void citizen referendums regarding election commissions and felon voting fight and just as they have moved to curtail the powers of Democrats elected to executive office in states with GOP legislatures.
With this kind of legal chaos as a background, it’s much easier to imagine armed warfare waged by one citizen against another and much easier to imagine a military coup.
5
Of course, nothing is impossible -- there has already been one Civil War in U.S. history -- but the scenarios sketched out here seem to me unlikely given the history of our country. And a colonial and his base going rogue also strikes me more a Hollywood movie plot than an actual possibility, given generations of our military academies producing exceptionally stable leaders.
But ... what is certainly possible, and more likely, is scattered politically-inspired violence and, in its worst manifestation, a rise in domestic terrorism in the vein of the Oklahoma City bombing. And it's certainly possible that self-styled "militias" could take it upon themselves to destabilize the border and "solve" the immigration issue with guns. Domestic cyber terrorism also strikes me as a real threat as alienated individuals perceive they are threatened by the government, public institutions and corporations.
The greatest threat comes from "nationalists" on the hard Right, but there could be factions on the hard Left that would be inspired to turn violent. Both groups have a history of violent atrocities in our country.
But I do concede that yellow lights are flashing and groups of the population could combust if Trump strikes the match. Still, as fragile as things appear, we are not facing the usual triggers to instability, such as 25% unemployment during the Great Depression and the student strikes, riots, mass protests and back-to-back political assassinations of JFK and MLK in 1968.
3
Could you share an example of “hard left” “atrocities“ perpetrated in this country?
It is so ironic that working class America has been gutted by millionaires and billionaires of Trump's ilk, and yet have been duped into supporting these very people. When will they figure out they traded all that bothersome regulation for clean air and water, and the other rights such as the right to organize for better labour conditions? Instead they have been encouraged to focus on imaginary fears of immigrants and the "other". A classic con with overtones of 1984.
8
The scenarios described here are precisely what so many of us have been predicting (and warning about) since before the 2016 election. It is for this reason that I and millions of others supported Bernie in 2016 ... because it was so blindingly obvious that Hillary would lose to Trump, and that such a loss would put us all in genuine peril. Now we are see the consequences of the fact that the Democrat party and its neoliberal allies in the media (MSDNC, NYT, CNN, et al) preferred losing to Trump over giving Bernie the keys to the White House.
As Leonard Cohen so prophetically put it:
"Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich...."
8
This is critically valuable analysis. Personally, I came to similar conclusions more than a year ago. At first, I was fearful of expressing them because the implications are so grave. Since then, I've expressed these ideas to a few people. Their first reaction is surprise or even a laugh, as if I am joking. Upon reflection, however, people agree. Nobody leaves that conversation laughing.
The political effects of American racism cannot be overestimated. It pervades everything and every issue under discussion. Racism, our original sin, may yet undo our democracy, just as it threatened to do so in 1861.
6
The problem with hoping for Republican senators to turn away from Trump is this: they know an actual, functional democracy is an existential threat to their power. They will abandon it before they will give up power.
This has been obvious for a long time: demographics and the bankruptcy of GOP policies mean that winning free and fair elections is something they cannot do, not and remain who and what they are.
8
I want to ask the panel, specifically who do they think trump’s mob would take up arms against, and how? Would they storm Congress to locate Democratic leaders? Will they indiscriminately target their neighbors who have expressed liberal views? Will they target their democratic relatives? I’m reminded of Rolf in The Sound of Music. Chilling and terrifying.
At the least, I hope steps are being taken, even now, to protect congressional Democrats from right wing vigilantes.
4
The groundwork for a Trumpian call to arms to defend his Presidency has been designed and built starting long before the 2016 election. It is composed, first, of a systematic discrediting of his most public of opponents: the free press, leaders of the opposing party, the intellectual centers of education and research (a favorite target of the far-right for decades), and a highly cynical attack on regions of the country that foster ideas anywhere to the left of his views and those of his base (which largely include the locations of most of his real estate holdings). The discrediting has taken the form of insults that have, nevertheless, the language of disloyalty built into it - lack of patriotism, bias, narrowness, unwillingness to listen or to see reason, and suggestions of illegality, unconstitutional acts and even treason.
The appeal to the military and the militia-minded public will be that the Democratic House and the left-wing media are the ones actually usurping the Constitution, and that he, Mr. Trump, is actually protecting American values and law.
Fox, the Tea Party, the Family Research Council, the Moral Majority, and their predecessors have been essentially making this argument for at least 40 years. No one should be surprised by it.
The mind-blowing aspect of this whole thing is that these various voices of neo-conservativism should have rallied behind Donald. J. Trump, a most unlikely figurehead for their adulation.
3
Why would he leave? His plan for taking authoritarian control of the country is working, and on it's way to being completed before the end of his term. With total control of the Justice and State departments and as Commander in Chief of the military and supported with a majority in the Supreme Court he's virtually indestructible. They can impeach him all they want, he's not going anywhere.
3
The great irony, and ultimately the lie, of “my 2nd Amendment friends”’ and increasingly the “patriots” who constitute the military is that they would be protecting and supporting exactly the kind of tyranny they claimed they wanted their guns to defend against. They would be protecting and supporting exactly the kind of tyranny that the original, the real Patriots, fought a revolution against. They would be betraying all that the the United States was founded on and stood for while waving the flag and claiming to be protecting it.
2
"the death of democracy is greatly exaggerated" Mark Twain would most likely say. I believe there is an element of Saddam's Comical Ali in this, make that a tragicomedy; Michael Wolf's words when asked how will Trump's Administration end resonate: in tears".
Trump is insecure. Eventually he will chicken out and his supporters will mumble and stall retreat to their homes and conspiracies galore, heroes of a misfit who managed to usurp Presidency in America. And then history will slowly settle the score, one not kind to Trump and his uncouth brood, to GOP, to ethno-jingoist Rambos, to evangelical hypocrites and of course, to FOX & Friends.
2
My best re assurance is that I have faith in our armed forces to follow the Constitution and not the person of The Donald. As a C&W musician I have much exposure to military people and even if the are Trump voters they will stay true to our Nation. We should be aware of the history of leaders refusing to honor election defeats but I only if the military supports Trump in his desire to stay in office will it happen. I do not think they will support him.
4
The idea that whites feel like they aren't being given a chance to succeed sounds familiar, if not ironic - to people of color.
If he won't leave the White House willingly, after losing the election, I hope that millions of Americans will join me in Washington D.C. to show him the door.
547
@Marc Bee
"I hope that millions of Americans will join me in Washington D. C. to show him the door."
Let's encourage the use of the #I'mGoing hashtag to indicate our willingness to do just that, should Trump lose the 2020 general election.
9
@Barry Randall
I think #letmeshowyouthedoor would be better. :-)
6
Oh come on, this is not Game Of Thrones. The idea that armed militias, backed by the US military, will block Elizabeth Warren (or Mike Pence) from entering the White House is pure fantasy. Don’t we have enough real issues to worry about?
144
@Max If I gambled, I'd agree with you outright. The problem is that Trump likes to keep people guessing and off-balance. He himself has begged Mr. Edsall to take this guessing-game to serious levels. It's hard to blame Mr. Edsall for responding.
22
@Max
There is a whole amendment (2nd) being continually defended because of the threat of governments.
4
@Max How is it fantasy? It happens all over the world, pretty often.
23
When are people going to realize that it’s not what a person looks like that is important, but how they act and comport themselves in society that really matters? It is not about your appearance, your heredity, or your religion, but it is about your character and how you treat others!
1
Mr. Edsall's opinion pieces are nearly always informative and interesting. This one is an exception. Senate will not remove Trump from office. But if he hypothetically is removed by the Senate or loses the 2020 election, he will leave office. He may make noises about fighting the result. But the federal government's infrastructure--including the military--would demand that he leave. There could be some isolated violence by the gun-nuts, incited by right-wing radio and websites. But even Fox and Congressional Republicans would support his ouster.
5
My heart and my stomach exchanged places as I read this -- too many intelligent insights all in one column, too many dire outcomes for my 71-year-old spirit to process. I'd like to disagree with most of them -- but collectively they make sense, especially having read "The Anatomy of Fascism" by Robert O Paxton.
The descent into fascism is both subtle and obvious, and unique to each nation falling prey to it. Any democracy is vulnerable -- and Trump has brought out our greatest weaknesses and exploited them to his advantage.
It may seem unfathomable that we would crumble into the scenarios offered here. But look how far Trump, state- and nationally-elected Republicans, Fox News and its hysterical ranters, the Proud Boys, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, ICE, climate deniers, and others have gone -- as we liberal Democrats and independents have watched, wretched and angry, while remaining analytical, largely immobile, without a unified resistance (until impeachment finally). Merely thinking it won't happen is not enough.
We do need to be prepared for the very worst, while hoping for the best. Never underestimate what angry, passionate, easily led people might do when unified under a crazed, charismatic leader.
6
But if the certainty of Republicans’ support is true, why did Trump and his minions try to hide the transcript of Trump’s call with Zelensky? Wouldn’t Trump know that his supporters were ready to accept any behavior, regardless of the law, that maintains his/their hold on power? After all, post-Mueller, Republicans dismissed outright all the obstruction of justice on Trump’s part and now seem happy to walk side-by-side with the Russians in their support for a Trump presidency.
And yet for some reason Trump’s Ukraine call details had to be hidden. (In fact, a lot of stories about Trump’s behavior have to leak out of the White House, suggesting that that behavior is not something Trump and his staff want people to know about.) And now that it’s out Republicans feel the need to engage all manner of straw man arguments to deflect from what actually happened. If Trump and his team truly knew the support was there, and that it was powerful enough to keep him in office, they wouldn’t expend all this energy lying about what happened.
I don’t know how this might play out, but Trump does not strike me as someone secure in his omnipotence right now. No doubt Trump and his supporters are dangerous, but they seem more scared and cornered by Trump’s own actions than anything else. Trump may represent them, but he is patently, demonstrably dishonorable. That must be a terrible burden for a lot his supporters to bear.
5
Trump and the Republicans took an oath to defend against "enemies foreign and domestic". But, I wonder sometimes if the Framers ever anticipated that an entire political faction, as well as the POTUS as the head of that faction, would actually be the "domestic enemies" they took an oath to defend against?
3
If push comes to shove, the military matters almost exclusively and a well armed citizenry hardly at all. If military discipline holds the citizen guys in camo with their wannabe Rambo guns largely won't show. (The white duck hunters and deputy sheriffs of Arkansas didn't show in 1957 when the old general ordered the 101st in.) The scary thing is, the military is a huge institution with a lot of chains of command. There's a wide profile of possibilities between discipline holding completely (maybe an outlier) and breaking down completely. (probably an outlier).
2
But, but, but I thought the right wing militias, with their AR-15’s, were there to protect Americans from tyranny, not to impose one on us. Isn’t that what they said?
4
Nothing here is a surprise. I hope our worst fears about Trump go utterly unrealized, and that his megalomania, likely dementia, and addled thinking are rebuffed by staunch professionals and committed patriots.
However, just in case, I think I'll continue to hang out on this side of the ocean and do my part long-distance. I have seen far too much - six months ago already - to believe America is safe from Trump's worst-case scenarios. Particularly because I may loathe Trump, but I fear his enablers and patrons.
I read a lot of books and our times resemble an awful lot of memoirs of the 1930's and other times when horrors were dawning.
Oh well. Time to go check on the winemaking downstairs.
3
This is an extremely well written and researched article that I wish I had never read.
4
I think it will be more subtle than that. "Well, even though Senator Warren won, we need to look at the millions of illegal votes and the Ukrainian hacking that helped her, so I won't be leaving the White House until we figure this out." Several days, maybe weeks of constitutional crisis, fear and panic. and ultimately the Senate will make him leave. He will have accomplished his goal of wrecking the system.
1
I stated that removing Trump from office would be nearly impossible from time he ran, including here in the Times comments section.
When the Mueller investigation first started I wrote:
"People keep arguing that Trump has to go, as if a democracy has any political process to get rid of a despot with no use for democracy or the rule of law. Trump is a true authoritarian with a massive base. Even if something else Trump does (presumably far worse) is revealed, or even if Trump loses the next election in 2020, he won't ever let go of power willingly. What do we do then?"
"I said from the time Trump entered the race, he'd win. The environment was perfect for his brand of narcissistic destructive crazy. Now that he's in, does anyone seriously think we can get him out? All previous American presidents, even Nixon, had limits, Trump has none."
"Nixon was never impeached. Barry Goldwater told Nixon he was finished, and Nixon believed it. Can any imagine if top Republicans told Trump the same thing? (I can't imagine it, but it's beside the point). Impeached presidents are supposedly removed, but even if the Democrats win big in 2018, Senate Republicans will never let it happen, and if they somehow did, it wouldn't matter as Trump wouldn't leave."
"Just look at the vitriol and demagoguery of Trump. A whiff of articles of impeachment, a mere initiation of the impeachment process, and you'd see Trump stir up hatred and not stop until he'd burned the whole country to the ground."
2
Voices discounting these scenarios as "fringe" ideas should review the role of right-wing militias in Burns, Oregon during the Malheur NWR takeover. A community of some 2800 people was invaded by hundreds of heavily armed militia members ( III%ers, Oathkeepers etc.).
The occupation was ended only by a combination of brave resistance by the townspeople of Burns who at one point formed a human wall to protect their courthouse, then eventually FBI infiltration and arrests by state and local police.
There are more of these III%ers in the rural West than most urban readers probably recognize. I've seen the III%er tattoo on kids pumping gas in our rural towns. So long as Trump hangs onto the White House, and William Barr backs him up, we can't count on the FBI to send resources to combat them. Members of our state police are now on the receiving end of propaganda aimed at our Democratic governor, Kate Brown, also targeted in a recall campaign by right-wing groups.
On the other hand, many minority groups have been shaken enough by white-supremacist terrorism, that they are starting to develop and implement self-defense plans. Even among white liberals, here in the West many are gun owners. The Malheur NWR occupation and several less prominent incidents convinced many that we cannot always rely on state or federal police to protect our communities.
So if Trump goes this route, I think it will be a miscalculation on his part. But a very dangerous, real possibility.
3
If we are faced with an illegal seizure of the presidency--and that this is a serious discussion is truly frightening--the outcome may turn on where the secret service sees in loyalty, to the law or to the occupant of the White House.
1
Wow, I thought I was a pessimist! All that I feel I can add to the learned people who contributed to the article is my direct observation that our US military is highly professional and highly integrated, at all levels. Committed bigots would have a hard time reaching positions of power and influence in today's US military.
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Trump threatens civil war. He needs to be removed from office ASAP. Hong Kong type streets protests may be the only avenue out of this impending disaster.
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This article is sad commentary but surely not hysterical. Many have commented about the woefulness of the issue having to be considered at all. Consideration in advance is better than knee jerk reaction at some later point of crisis. While there are many who now say they would willingly bring their mighty violence to the streets, I think few would. I believe there are more like Cristopher Cantwell than Dylann Roof. No matter how tough a game they talk, the vast majority of people don't want to shoot other people. People who have to shoot other humans rarely, rarely like it; ask a cop or soldier who has had to do it. I hope those with guns and 'convictions' that haven't really been thoroughly thought out start considering what 'really doing it' would be like.
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The people who elected Trump knew that he was a liar, etc. therefore, his behavior is acceptable.
Now the author is fostering the explanation that voters will accept Trump refusing to leave office.
On a minor note to Mr. Charles Murray, a “Hobson’s choice” is no choice. Take what Hobson offers or take nothing. As much as Mr. Murray may dislike the alternative, there is a choice to reject the “malignant narcissist.” In my view, the malignant narcissist is no choice.
So what was Mason's thought provoking question?
I am trying to remember a movie --The Seven Days in May -- about a rogue military officer confronting the president.
How did that turn out?
Bu I am seriously afraid that Trump, now convinced he is God's choice, will only leave the White House, kicking, screaming and ranting under the control of US marshals and the men in white coats.
2
I disagree with the commenters who are calling this column hysterical or hyperbolic. While I think the likelihood of some sort of armed insurrection is low in the event of an election loss or impeachment, Trump has made it clear that he is willing to (metaphorically or literally) burn down the country and its institutions in order to hold on to power. And the Republicans, to a lesser extent, have shown contempt for norms and traditions in order to retain power. Witness the willingness of the Senate to simply deny Obama a Supreme Court pick, and the Supreme Court's deference to GOP policy goals, not to mention the Attorney General's transformation of the Justice Department into a policy wing of the White House. Given that history, I don't think it's a stretch to say that, in the event of a 2000-style election, Trump would contest the results, and the Senate, Supreme Court and Justice Department could create enough cover to justify holding on to the White House. In fact, in a close election, there is no doubt that they will try, and the Democrats have shown little indication they are willing or able to fight these tactics. And does anyone doubt that they would fight tooth and nail in the event of a narrow impeachment and removal vote in the Senate? They would find myriad justifications to ignore the removal.
Things are likely to get very, very ugly.
2
Trump won't go quietly, whether he is impeached or loses the election. Will he even be able to campaign? He could not make it through a debate without going off the rails.
He is clearly mentally degenerating before our eyes. It's either dementia or early Alzheimer's. The press should do the right thing and report on that.
2
Trump won't go quietly, whether he is impeached or loses the election. Will he even be able to campaign? He could not make it through a debate without going off the rails.
He is clearly mentally degenerating before our eyes. It's either dementia or early Alzheimer's. The press should do the right thing and report on that.
Based on the numbers, Evangelists are a minority - many of whom are young and denouncing homophobia, racial disparity and attacks on global warming. Perhaps realistically their aren't enough on the far religious right to vote Trump in:
Protestants: 150,000,000: 88,000 (regular Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Episcopal, etc. 62,500,000 Evangelicals. 70,412,000 Catholics. 6,700,000 Jewish. 3,450,000 Muslims. Plus the millions of non-church-going believers, agnostics and atheists who may repudiate Trump. While most religions don't vote as a block, here's hoping there are more NeverTrumps than MAGAs.
The Dreamers are people who grew up in the USA and strongly wanted to fit and be part of American society. English is their first language but some people want to deport them and accept citizens who grew up somewhere else and will take longer to assimilate. It seems that compromising with the Dreamers would benefit everyone involved. Generalizing and demonizing certain nations is so wrong.
Pure paranoia. Seriously, the legal, finance, and corporate sectors would “would resist Trump’s efforts toward a coup” because they want to protect their profits? Not because we don’t actually live in Venezuela?
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There are some of us that believe our system still works even in the face of a tyrant, even in the face of someone who knows only how to lie to the American people. If Donald Trump, who has become our national nightmare , is actually stronger that our Constitution and stronger than the will of our people, then America deserves to be held hostage by this self serving , malignant narcissist. Of course not only the president takes the oath of office but so do thousands of other people who serve in our government. And while the oath of office may have meant absolutely nothing to Donald Trump, it means everything to many of the others who serve our country.
Donald Trump may be crazy enough to think he can stay in the White House as long as he wants, but there are enough people who know better.
1
The scariest, most worrying quote by far here is the one by good ol' Charles Murray, right-wing America's favorite eugenicist.
If push comes to shove the military won't support Trump, nor will civil servants--I think both Republicans and Democrats for the most part recognize that these are paranoid, unlikely scenarios. But GOP conservatives like Murray? They are evidently all in.
1
The Democrats have been talking about removing President Trump from office since he was elected. Maxine Waters led the way by saying we will impeach him any way we can. Jerry Nadler echoed that opinion. Now they are going full force ahead and will stop at nothing to get President Trump out of office. It is all impeachment impeachment impeachment 24 hours a day. It is getting very old. This will not work. People are not blind. He was elected legally and will be reelected legally. This is not helping the Democrats cause of winning over the voters. They will become disillusioned with the party quickly and support the Republicans. Look for big loses in 2020 for the Democrats.
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