Your Subway Was Delayed by 1930s Signals. A Fix Is Finally Coming.

I see a mechanical timer and two relays that belong in the Smithsonian.

The unions are no better than an old fashioned crime syndicate and our "woke" politicians give in to their extortion. No municipality of any size can function under such cost burdens. Since voters won't rise up and throw the bums out, I guess a third world level twentieth century transportation system will remain a pipe dream. (I'm not dumb enough to think we could have a first world twenty-first century anything...)

Signal system breakdowns clearly compromise subway operation and cause delays. That's a reason for an upgrade. But it irritates me when Mr. Byford and others carry on about how many more trains per hour a new signal system will allow. Sure, more trains per hour will be a benefit during the morning and evening rush. But, as any subway rider can tell you, during nights and weekends trains run with much longer intervals. On the Upper East Side, nights and weekends I see 10-11 minute spacing on the Q and 4/5, 8-10 minute spacing on the 6. That won't be affected by a new signal system. The MTA has decided that cattle-car conditions are acceptable at all times and so runs only enough trains to insure that crowding. I remember and miss the 1990's and 2000's, when weekend trains were pleasantly empty.

I grew up using the MTA & still have some of the old tokens with the "Y" hole punched through them. NY has so many great aspects to it but I would rank the 24 hour public transit as one of the better features of it. In fact I rank all other cities on the basis of having a 24 hour system in place. This means that the Paris Metro, London Tube & Tokyo JR which are not 24 hours get a failing grade as far as I am concerned. They are more expensive than the MTA too. Its the greatest city in the world & its reflected in its transit system. Its far from perfect and yes there is bloat & blatant cost overruns but its worked relatively well for decades. There are plenty of things to spend the money on too. Stations need to have access for the handicapped not only because its the right thing to do, but also because its the law of the land. Millions for an elevator is a small price to pay for access to the system for our handicapped citizens. More importantly the elevators need proper maintenance. Buy ones made in the USA & support our country at the same time. Signaling is an important upgrade but if ridership continues to increase at some point the trains & the signals will not be able to provide transit for its riders. The bus system needs to transition to electric. Other cities do this, why can't the greatest one do it as well ? Private cars have no place in Manhattan Parking should be removed too Anyone living here will know that already Biking and walking are the solutions

"............except for three new stations on the Second Avenue subway in East Harlem — a project that has been in the works for nearly a century"....................... Sometimes when I read about NYC transit, a sentence like this jumps off the page. I follow transit construction from the engineering side and it gets to be exhausting after years of continuing start/stop projects from current and past admins. We are a third world country now as all the industrial countries of E & A have continued for decades to keep 'current' with their transit systems as ours is stuck somewhere in the 1950's. We have the engineering and design ability to be modern but our gov systems for financing ( fed and state) are stuck in our decades long log jam with the revolving door system of budgets being proposed and then forgotten until later admins. start over again. The state systems have collapsed for projects needing long term planning with these huge costs. Only a revilaized Fed infrastructure program similar in scope to the Eisenhower Interstate program of the 50's, can get it completed in a decade or more. There is no plan in Fed. Gov now to even attempt this kind of improvement. We're stuck with our 'band-aid' approach until a new Fed/Congress makes real funding available.

"...but Mr. Cuomo has pressed the agency to look at other methods, including a technology called ultra-wideband that has not been used on major transit systems." This is why politicians should stand aside and let the technical experts choose the best technology available and already in use today, not some untested technology that will inevitably lead to schedule and budget overruns.

Computer Based Train Control MIGHT result in a 10% increase in capacity, but adding a standard car (60' on B Division [BMT/IND] and 51' on A Division [IRT]) would yield a much quicker capacity increase. And there is nothing wrong with the architecture of the signal system, only its implementation with old fabric insulated wires and electro-mechanical relays. The signal system could be made virtually 100% reliable and delays due to signal problems eliminated for far less money with no customer impact is modern methodology were employed. But "my way of the highway" Andy Byford won't hear of reasonable solutions. Byford and Cuomo need to go. The subways are city owned and the city should take them back.

I can feel your pain. Here in Boston the delays are so bad between signal problems and train mechanical problems. We are just standing at a station for the last 10 minutes waiting to move. I do blame the politicians and heads for the MBT and the MBTA for not doing anything for the past 60 years. Just hoping nothing would happen on their watch. Well guess what ... we live in the wealthy nation and have a third world transit system. I hope the politicians and the heads of the transit are happy on what they have done

I heard that the MTA is planning to spend 5.5 billion dollars putting in elevators in 70 stations. That 140 elevators. 5.5 billion divided by 140 is 39 million dollars per elevator. Elevators don't cost 39 million dollars. Since the MTA uses borrowed money to do their capital projects, we will be paying for these elevators for 30 years. Of course, half the time the elevators don't work and they always smell like urine. The MTA spends money like drunken sailors. Actually, that is insulting to drunken sailors.

The cost is astronomical for what we are getting. The blatant waste is obvious in every overstaffed work crew. A national disgrace. The same corrupt system that gave us Trump. $9 billion? Reduce the staff by half and you're at $5. This is a problem that can be solved by investigating and breaking up the cartels: sweetheart contractors and unions in bed and getting rich together from bloat. They fund the pols, who preside over uncompetitive districts. So while we're at it: scrap the district-based winner take all system--in favor of city and state level parliaments--the only way to solve these structural issues.

"'Making signals a priority is a sea change for New York because it’s a shift from politicians wanting to do the big, shiny thing they can put their name on, to focusing on the things that actually matter most', said Nick Sifuentes...." Stop mentioning "politicians" and start naming names. You can start with "Empty-suit Andy." He'll take full credit for having done nothing.

the NYC mass transit system could be a real-world test-bed for artificial-intelligence/autonomous-control of the 2 billion+ human-controlled surface vehicles on the planet - subways slightly less chaotic than the roads

"I hear the train a comin' It's rolling round the bend And I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when I'm stuck in Folsom prison, and time keeps draggin' on But that train keeps a rollin' on down to San Antone" This Johnny Cash song sums up what it feels like being a NYC subway commuter. However, I'm glad to finally hear there are plans to replace the MTA's decrypt signaling system for improved on time performance.

Between inflated operating and capital costs, the MTA is spending about 10x what similar European countries are spending. There needs to be reform from top to bottom. Union wages and inefficiencies are part of it but not the whole story, incompetent layers of management and spineless politicians out for a vote are to blame just as much. This is BILLIONS of dollars going to waste. Billions that could be spent on social services, housing, education. Contact your reps and ask them to find out why we are spending 10x the amount for worse service. There's so much here, and there are a ton of complicated issues. The fix won't be easy, but nothing will happen unless the pols understand that the political will is there. Some good reading (and read the comments!): http://secondavenuesagas.com/2019/09/16/signal-modernization-ada-accessibility-take-center-stage-in-51-billion-mta-capital-plan/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/09/22/new-york-rolling-stock-costs-are-skyrocketing/ https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2019/09/mta-proposes-2020-2024-capital-program.html And I suggest following these folks on Twitter, some really great in-depth info: @2AvSagas @alon_levy

Seems that Management of the MTA's money needs to come from far away from the gross Political theater and union kickbacks that have lead to this. The citizens have paid a thousand times over for this system and have been lied to and their money stolen. The work and management should be outsourced to I dare say someone like China, I mean go look at their transit system and tell me that NYC one of the most important places in the world should have to live and travel in such squalor.

The dirty and ugly subway is already very expensive as is and I wonder why. I am riding an excellent subway in Europe with a fair of only 50 cents - modern signals, cleaner and more beautiful than the NY subway.

Seven BILLION dollars?!

Please let the MBTA in Boston in on some advise with switching. There's a traffic jam every morning on the Red Line when two trains moving in the same direction on the same track more than 10 minutes apart from each other just stop for "signal problems" and "there's traffic up ahead." Traffic? No train has come down this track for over 10 minutes. How could there be traffic?

I appreciate the Times' emphasis on the subway system, as that carries the majority of transit rides in NYC. But it shouldn't ignore the MTA undertaking a revision of the bus routes in each of the boroughs. This could also affect the subway if the improvements with the bus increase bus speeds to the point that some rides will be by bus rather than subway. Is it going to be difficult? Yes. But with input (not just demands) from the various stakeholders, it can also improve the transit picture in NYC.

It's a brilliant move to impose congestion tax on cars and cabs and then suspend subway service on the weekends and evenings to force people to take cars and cabs.

It only makes sense to prioritize subway service from the distant outer boroughs when the city’s land use policies encourage the development of speculative luxury investments close to areas of employment and high-density “affordable” housing as far away as possible.

every fare increase for the last 20 years was supposed to fix the problems of signals in the subway system i wonder where all that money was spent

The terrible planning and decision making culture of the MTA, local and NY state governments is not a fiscal problem, but simply a reflection of a broad American perspective - why invest unnecessary dollars and pain today that may reap benefits only in the future. Do just what is necessary today. Only when a disaster occurs do we act. This is an unsustainable approach for longevity because it does not provide the luxury of time for reflection and debate on the best way forward. Only recently, with large public discourse on acting today into preventing the ecological calamity of the future, do I have some optimism that the here and now culture of the U.S. can change.

The management structure of the subways has not changed in many years but it is only since this current Mayoralty that every mention of the subways is preceeded by "controlled by the Governor." The city must take a direct hand as we are directly affected. Demand that the "Thrive" boondoggle be immediately disbanded. Fire those Mayoral cronies just granted big pay hikes. Trim other fat larded on city government by this Mayor. Use the proceeds towards pledging a nice round $1 billion in city funds toward getting this this job done, having a seat at the table and actually doing something useful in the last two years of this Mayoral farce.

Governor Coumo needs to step back and let the transportation specialists do what they were hired to do. Earlier he intervened in the subway plans and promoted station renovations. While these are important, new signals are essential. I would rather use an old, and yes, dirty station and get to work on time than be left waiting in a new station for a train that's chronically delayed.

As for a choice of systems, having been a computer programmer reporting to managers for over twenty years, I tend to trust engineers more than governors to make technical decisions.

No Luddite here, but...Better sensing and computation can help pack more trains on a system, although the proposed cost seems New-York-Classic-Suspicious. Where the trap is, is that anything being proposed will depend on a generation of devices and software that will be obsolete possibly even before the system is operating. So what a designer has to do is stockpile spares and some permanent (!) human specialists to have any chance of the system working for decades, which it must. In addition, any ‘modern’ system is going to have cyber vulnerabilities that can’t even be assessed now. If anybody out there thinks that relays and timing motors wear out eventually, you might inquire about the innards of your VCR, your unsupportable new car, or your phone. Whereas, the electro-mechanical world of the 1930s is invulnerable, repairable (so far 80 years), and degrades only with seriously poor maintenance. My version of a competent revision incorporates hybridizing the old system with some new controls; ones that can fail and degrade independently of the basic running of the system. A cheaper alternative, but unlikely to be attractive to people bidding on this most juicy of jobs. More thought, less spending.

One huge question that is not addressed by this article is security. "Ultra wide-band"? How vulnerable is any proposed new system to hacking? The one advantage of the older system, as decrepit as it may be, is no one can hack it from the outside. Are any of these systems being designed to be as secure as the current system? A question completely ignored by this article.

They could spend 7 billion on new signal hardware, or they could track the location of the motorperson's (train operator?) cell phone. Okay, maybe that would only work on elevated lines, at least until cell service was available everywhere underground.

I think it would have been nice to read some of the details of this situation--what, specifically, is wrong with the signals now, and how will that be improved?--and fewer comments from individuals who are or will be affected.

Due to the magnitude of this update and the amount of software and hardware I predict a massive cost overrun, more suffering for riders and in the end very little improvement. The bonus is an outdated product by the time it is fully deployed. This is the new norm when products can ship without being complete.

From my earliest days of living in NYC, now over half a century, the main concern of the riding population was, "Save the Fare." People would put up with ugly unreliable transit as long as it was cheap. Well, nothing lasts forever and eventually things had to be replaced and paid with higher fares. While there tends to be less public outrage today when increases are proposed, I notice the many are now refusing to pay the fare at all. I happened to take the bus in solidly middle class eastern Queens at school dismissal time and saw perhaps a third of junior and high school students not paying or using passes. I blame the public in large measure for the condition of the transit system.

Seems as if the MTA is being looted. Why on earth would it take 80 year old equipment to keep the system running on an estimate of billions of dollars to just make necessary improvements in a system that already exist this sounds suspiciously like a whole scale looting of the subway system has been underway for decades and still continues I have no problem with people making good money for what they do but the sheer price tag of all of this and the creaking is the existIngi System tell me that a lot of the money is not going into the subway at all There needs to be an investigation of exactly where all of the money goes this is unbelievably overpriced.

The fact that it is 1930's signals represents my gauge of New York politicians. All of these years later and so many delays has gotten the MTA to the speculation stage? I can recall after my first trip to Paris in 1990 making inquiries about upgrading our transit to some of their more basic functions. One politician answered "our system is too old." Turns out the Paris Metro is actually older and now, 29 years later the Paris Metro has many more miles of track, even a new express line across the entire city while on many Paris lines the trains arrive every one minute during rush hour. Seriously why bother contacting any politicians about improvements? I did get de Blasio on a WNYC call in show once for a song and dance routine. It's all a green new deal talking point, just as long as none of them have to do anything. All of the major cities outside of the United States have many new lines opening in the near future to meet the needs of the people. New York might extend the Second Avenue subway another 3/4 of a mile. Most cities have upgraded systems several times while New York did nothing and these new signals, they haven't even settled on which new signals. But reading this I can see that they are already planning who can be blamed when nothing happens. In most European cities when your on the stairs and hear a train, you don't need to run down those stairs. There's another train right behind it. As a bonus there is probably a train to where you need to go.

Here's an idea - if night service becomes a problem, how about supplementing service with special shuttle buses? Maybe across different segments? It's the city that never sleeps after all.

Wow look at that American made signal equipment. Sure it is obsolete but it still works after 75 years. Where will the new equipment come from? Does a company in Rochester New York still exist to make the new equipment? Dare I think it will be made in China and have a 10 year life span?

A little advice for Mr Cuomo DON’T use any untried new technology and listen to Mr Byford. We have already seen what they do with new. They built their OWN engines for the LIRR and when they break they are the only ones with their problems. Their communications is second only to the telegraph. There are special and specific problems to the Subway but the signaling system doesn’t need to be reinvented on New York states taxpayers money. Off the shelf technology is the way to go. Listen to the expert Andy!

Here's a thought for New York City commuters. If you were to live in Albion, NY and wanted to work or attend college in Brockport NY, a straight line distance of 15 miles you'd need a car, bicycle, or your two feet to travel between the two villages. No public transportation exists between these two villages. Yes, there is public transportation (Orleans Transit Service) between Medina and Albion NY but none crossing county borders in most regions of the State. Remember, each borough of New York City is a New York State County.