Calling firefighters professionals is a stretch. Like all jobs you have to know a little, but it is mostly physical work. However, they are very well paid thanks to vigorous unions. Being a firefighter is a comparatively easy and risk-free* job, and if you are lucky you can get your children and friends to inherit the plum slots.
* Studies have shown that firefighters have considerably less on-the-job risk than many other jobs.
21
@wnhoke Ever been inside a burning building with people trapped in it?
Where were you on 9/11 when everybody else was running out of the towers and the FDNY and other emergency personnel were running into the buildings and then got sick and died as a result?
Ever respond to an accident scene where everybody is already dead?
Ever have somebody die in front of you while you were trying to save them?
NO?
I didn't think so.
Sincerely,
Somebody that knows Professional EMT's and Firefighters.
21
@wnhoke - Firefighters in your area just 'have to know a little?' Really? In NYC they're very well trained. Its a profession here. We like it that way.
14
You think that pay disparity is low? I am Critical Care Transport RN and work on the ambulance with these guys. Come take a look at California. EMTs here are paid minimum wage. We are talking a max of 35k/year BEFORE taxes and that is if you work 4-12hour shifts a week....every single week. Paramedics here make 16-22/hr...max of 57k. Meanwhile starting pay...as in the first year... for LA city fire and comparable departments is 88k with full benefits and a pension. And we are talking California, which like New York is the highest cost of living area in the US. Its nonsense. The skill base and responsibilities are way out of proportion for what the pay is and yet they are compensated LESS than a worker at McDonalds.
12
Paramedics and E.M.T. are long overdue for a decent salary. Who else saves lives for such a paltry salary? Health care workers who take care of our senior citizens also deserve a living wage.
19
No one deserves more than a firefighter. Spend 2 minutes with a firefighter putting out a serious fire and you’ll see why.
4
Thank you NY Times ! There was a few articles by the other NY papers especially one in the voice of the people in June of this year. This is a more detailed opinion . But this falls on deaf ears ! PLEASE help get the word out! Thank you very much! John “ZUT”Picone
3
I worked as an EMT in upstate NY. The labor that paid and volunteer E.M.S. workers do is rewarding. But, it is also physically dangerous. Even with improvements in stretcher designs there is potential for back injury. Everyone I worked with had issues with their backs.
The work is also psychologically wearing. E.M.S. workers see car accidents, shootings, the results of domestic violence and child abuse in situ. I only worked as an EMT for a short time 20 years ago, but I still deal with trauma and the results of repeated back injuries.
Working these situations requires medical knowledge, empathy, the skills of a stand up comic (to distract patients) and the ability to compartmentalize. When the chips are down, you want the people who respond to be well-trained, compassionate, and awake. You do not want them to be burned out and exhausted after working multiple jobs and back-to-back shifts just to stay afloat.
98
As an ICU RN, I am often put in unsafe situations, or asked to perform duties outside of my pay grade. However, I do so in a hospital setting where (ideally), I am supported and protected, and I also work in an area (SF Bay) where I am paid appropriately.
EMT's and paramedics perform their duties in an unstable environment with a level of autonomy beyond that of most healthcare workers. For example, they can intubate in the field, a procedure generally performed by an MD, often with the backing of an anesthesiologist. It is inappropriate to lay so much responsibility on one person and fail to compensate them fairly.
245
I’ve never understood the pay disparity between EMTs/Paramedics and our firefighters and police. I support pay equity among these groups who all do excellent work that we can count on when their services are needed.
80
Agree. I work in a busy Level I Trauma Center and these folks work their butts off. Sadly, EMTs and Paramedics don’t have the union representation behind them that these other groups do
11
@JMH This a major factor in this dilemma-the relative strength of the fire, police and, in many places, sanitation unions vs the lower strength of EMS unions. It sounds like that is changing and as it does so may pay scales for EMS professionals.
The main reason that any of these jobs are well paid is not the result of the spontaneous appreciation and largesse of the tax paying public but the result of the advocacy of their unions.
23
A paramedic or EMT can make the difference between life or death in an emergency situation. Their work is high stress and high adrenaline and their salary should be commensurate with that of other emergency personnel. Double shifts are inevitable from time to time for emergency personnel but for paramedics and EMTs it's all too often a normal practice and necessity for economic survival. It's time to honor and support all of our first responders and pay them the professional salary that they deserve.
44
You left out an important professional hazard faced by paramedics: Having to endure physical resistance when the person they've come to rescue fights like tooth and nail NOT to be put in the ambulance because they know their insurance company won't pay for the ride to the hospital. Stories of people getting dinged for thousands (and even tens of thousands) of dollars by private ambulance services abound.
11
The salaries of medical professionals, including MDs, are also down. Lives are no longer important. It's all about making and saving money: cities, states, and health care corporations. In addition I don't think the average person knows that medicare and private insurance do not cover ambulance charges. That's usually at least 1,000.00 for a short trip to a hospital and return to a skilled nursing facility or home.
6
given the cost of living in all of nyc boroughs they all need to earn more it shouldn't take 5 years to earn 50k in nyc it creates a revolving door subway workers bus drivers also should be paid more its hazard pay as well as cost of living .
6
I am a NYC Firefghter and ex NYPD Cop and have always said that these EMT workers are u def appreciated. I can’t tell you how many times we were on scene and needing to “rush the bus” as we say. I have always extended my appreciation to them on scene since the work they do brings a situation off the street and our work ends. They have always been professional and helpful and seem like to me they are in the wrong union. They should be considered uniform and giving the same benefits of cops and firefighters. Been saying it for 25 years.
34
This is a failure of the unions, who collect dues from these hard working people, to deliver.
9
In this society we value white collar hacks more than we value people who save lives or take care of our children.
11
I've always been sort of shocked by how little EMTs make. Never really understood why.
10
The social good from having a professional and effective paramedic and EMT service is enormous.
This service contributes directly to the quality of life experienced by the people who live in and who visit the city. Its role is co-equal to the FD or the PD; think of the service as the medics in an infantry platoon.
What's puzzling is the Editors' opinion impies there is a shortage of EMTs forcing a lot of overtime. The overtime is welcome from a worker's perspective, but why is there a shortage of qualified applicants for a $50 to $65k / yr job that serves as a gateway to the FDNY?
If there is a labor shortage, then raising the pay will not fix the problem. It's not as though people with other job opptys for comparable income will pursue the vocation. Those who pursue jobs as EMTs want to do good, but they see it as a good paying job. More money is better, but still a good paying job.
If there is no shortage of qualified applicants, then the issue is mis-management or not enough funds to pay for for a fix. Maybe there are too many city employees in other jobs that are no longer needed. Maybe the organization benefits that might occur with a more integrated NYPD, FD and EMT force might cover the cost. Fewer top ranking officers, maybe more, smaller units.
For sure, if major financial resources must be found, the unions must be prepared to give up some benefits in addition to raising taxes to pay for it.
@TDurk
The money is there - it is always there. What needs to change is the way the job is evaluated and a removal of the bias towards firefighters as being more deserving. Different roles but both of equal value.
4
23 year firefighter/paramedic here working in top 30 population city. And I respect and rely upon my ambulance colleagues. We work as a team.
Ambulance EMT/Paramedics and firefighters on fire trucks and engines are exposed to many of the same risks (violent patients, active shooter, communicable disease exposure, needle stick risk, lifting obese patients, etc etc), as both professions respond to EMS calls.
But ambulance folks do not run into burning buildings to search for rescue trapped occupants. They are not exposed to the same toxics and carcinogens as firefighters. They do not do dive, confined space, trench, rope rescue.
I agree that ambulance professionals should be paid more than they are, but it is not their job to assume nearly an equivalent level of risk to cops and firefighters. And we all know the pay and benefits when we apply.
Fires may be decreasing as a percentage of of overall calls (for many structural and systemic reasons), but the fires we DO have are deadlier than ever due to modern furnishings and building materials:
https://ulfirefightersafety.org/research-projects/comparison-of-modern-and-legacy-home-furnishings.html
Not the same job at all.
7
@LP the Hazardous tactic EMTs, Rescue Paramedics and Officers of FDNY EMS do perform rope, trench and confined space rescues. All FDNY EMS personnel respond into the warm zone at active shooter incidents in full military ballistic gear. Also, firefighters do not routinely respond to violent domestic disputes, dangerous gang shootings, NYPD warrant jobs, out of control overdoses, or patients with altered mental statuses; FDNY EMS face those dangers on a daily basis.
15
Noted and thanks. Our system is different.
But I maintain that they are different jobs with vastly different risk levels.
Only firefighters go inside burning buildings.
If you want to be a firefighter, test to be a firefighter.
2
@LP Your comments might apply to systems in which the paramedics are firefighter/paramedics and transport is provided by commercial ambulances. I retired from 24 years in a municipal service where we did it all, including technical rescue, helicopter operations, and support for the police tactical unit.
2
EMT’s & Paramedics Pay should at least be increased by $10,000. The salary has practically been the same for EMS workers for the past 10 years while other city jobs where you go through DCAS testing to obtain have increased well over $10,000 within the past 10 years. You have administrative jobs and janitor jobs for the city who’s salary is for more higher than what EMS workers make at FDNY. Sanitation workers who help keeps the city CLEAN make well more than ems workers, while we help to keep patients ALIVE and intact. Increasing the pay rate will more than likely permit more Ems members from leaving the job for promotion, private sector and for completely other non related careers which will in turn have enough units running throughout the city all year around and increase respond times. As well as eliminate so much funds being payed due to the constant excessive amount of overtime worked my ems workers. Pay Raise = More Staff/ Units Running, Quicker Responds Time/ People Chance of living increases, Less overtime given out which actually saves money compared to efficient pay raises for EMS now and last but not least more experienced Emt’s And Paramedics Due to being able to actually stay in FDNY EMS and only work that job alone and not be overwhelmed and exhausted from working crazy hours. More efficient EMS workers who are energized enough were only human overworking just to pay bills leads to an extremely exhausted EMS member that can interfere. Help make the city safer
10
What's more important, saving buildings or saving lives? As a former volunteer EMT, I often wondered about that when I read about "first responders: police, fire fighters and... oh yeah, EMS personnel." Luckily for me I live in an area where the paid responders are paid equally. NY City can do as well as Rural Colorado.
7
I am totally behind you on this. And while we are paying paramedics what they deserve can we STOP charging their patients hundreds of dollars for the ride to the hospital? Does the fire department charge for the fire truck to come to the location of the fire? Does the police department charge mileage to attend crime scenes?
14
@Grumpy-Old-Man
It's not hundreds of dollars. An emergency ambulance ride usually starts at over $1,000 and that is true all over the country. I know--I do medical-legal research in catastrophic injury cases.
6
@Martha Shelley And let's not talk about the bills patients can get for a helicopter ride!
7
Paramedics and EMT’s are not chit chatting in the field. They’re saving lives. Pay them what they deserve.
9
Outrageous. Paramedics and EMTS suffer injuries to their backs and shoulders from lifting and moving patients. Emotionally their job takes a tremendous toll. My husband was the Medical Director for a Medic One on the West Coast. He fought all the time with the fire chief for them. Have you ever gone to the scene of a double decapitation where two intoxicated teenage boys tried to drive under the back of a semi? Well EMTS and Paramedics do. Someone has to find the heads. Then your next run is an elderly man who stroked on the toilet and you have to reassure him and his wife that you will get him safely to the hospital and the stench and mess doesn’t bother you. As a retired ICU nurse, I admire these brave kind souls. They deserve the pay and benefits that reflect their value to the community. Remember how glad you are to see them when you dial 911.
76
@Molly Ciliberti
Last time I checked, behavioral health visits were covered by insurance
@James. Several of his dear “boys” needed hospitalization and at that time not covered so we did. After caring for a nurse from the ED who was murdered but lived long enough to die in ED, he got a psychiatrist and team of therapists to come to the department and begin their care and ED staffs immediately. Mental health coverage is relatively new.
5
The pay for both firefighters and police is inflated because the more or less hold us hostage. Can New York afford this? By the way, though I live in NJ, I work in NYC. Fully appreciate the work of EMTs but if we take an inflated wage scale and use it to judge other work, we end up with just more overpaid workers.
And the wage scale for firefighters in police is inflated. By wage scale, I mean the total package of pay and benefits. By the way, the workers most likely to be injured are trash collectors.
6
@Terry McKenna
In Nevada, one person drives the garbage truck. The company provides the pails and on garbage day, you put out the recycles and the regular trash. The garbage truck is automated. The truck, not the driver, lifts the pails from the ground, dumps it in the truck and gently slides it back down to the sidewalk. No backs involved, ever. This is done for both pails. One truck for regular trash and one for recycled. I pay 15. a month for the service. The company is in a few other states. The same truck picks up 10 yard containers from the parks from the front, also up and over and back down in place. The reason this cannot be done in NYC is there is no place to leave pails in the street in front of homes since there are so many cars to park. But it should be done this way. Containers are tightly closed and so no rats, no mice, because no black plastic bags on the sidewalks. And, no open trash pails. NYC could cooperate on something like this. It would take all of us to work together to find spaces to leave the pails so they can be picked up. It is a wonderful solution to the rat problem.
1
Calling for higher pay is easy. Not saying it is wrong but what budget does the Times suggest we cut to free up resources for higher pay. That’s the hard call.
8
@Jonathan
Of course you tax more, duh. Just tax the rich
2
@Jonathan
No cuts needed when you always raise taxes, lol.
1
I volunteered as an EMT in Brooklyn prior to medical school. I was on all the same calls as FDNY & Hospital based EMTs & Paramedics. The job is challenging & dangerous but very rewarding. I would have loved to have gained more experience by working full or part time as an EMT but in reality the pay rate is unsustainable to live in NYC. Frankly, it is downright insulting given the harsh conditions of the job. These folks are on the front lines everyday! Give them the pay raise they deserve!!
26
It’s nonsense that there is a pay disparity between EMS and the FDNY because of race or gender.
People know the salary of the jobs they apply for. If they want to apply a lower paying job, or don’t qualify to work at a higher paying job, that’s not discrimination.
Should EMS workers be paid more? Perhaps, especially if there aren’t enough of them. Supply, demand, Economics 101.
But let’s not turn this into a clearly disingenuous discrimination discussion. Because that turns off voters, even those who would support a raise otherwise,
11
Thank you for writing this. EMS workers in this city appreciate your work to bring awareness to this problem a lot. Hopefully it will help things change. After 14 years of EMS service to the people of NYC I still love going to work everyday. I treat every patient like my own family and would be horrified if an EMT or Paramedic came into my family’s house and didn’t give 100%. I’m very grateful for my job and that I get to serve this city and help people on their worst day, but it deeply hurts everyone of us who puts our lives on the line every tour while earning subpar wages compared to other NYC first responders. Thank you again for your work to publish this and I hope it helps in our fight for equal pay. R.I.P. EMT Yadira Arroyo 2017
13
We know firefighting is a great career. We know that family ties are critical to getting in. There are many careers rife with nepotism....big law....I banking....
4
FDNY EMS responds to emergencies alongside FDNY Firefighters and NYPD Police Officers. On scene EMS provides emergency medical care while Firefighters fight fires and Police Officers enforce the law. Although each job is different, they are equally vital to the overall mission of saving lives.The agencies work and train together as a team to achieve that goal. In addition to the medical training that other emergency medical services may receive, FDNY EMS members receive a tremendous amount of specialized
training uniquely designed to prepare them to help protect the nations largest city. Side by side with Police and Fire personnel they drill on bombings, subway derailments and active shooter incidents while wearing full military ballistic armor. They provide emergency care at every major
event in all five boroughs; New Year's Eve, July 4th fireworks, street festivals and parades. They protect spectators and participants at the US Open, NYC Marathon and hundreds of other sporting events year-round. And they keep visiting Heads of State safe through the specialized Dignitary Protection Unit. There are many clear similarities between FDNY EMS and NYC's other Uniformed Services. Similar risks, similar life saving goals and similar training to be prepared for every eventuality. The glaring difference is that on the EMS side of FDNY the vastly more diverse workforce is vastly less compensated than their Firefighter counterparts.
William Rich
Rec. Secretary
UEMSO, Local 3621
13
I couldn't agree more, but it won't happen. There's only so much money in city budgets. Giving EMT's the pay they deserve (like giving teachers the pay they deserve) would require raising taxes, which Americans taxpayer would never stand for. (Having lived in several countries, I can tell you that no one moans about carrying out the civic/patriotic act of paying taxes to the extent that Americans do. They need the money for two double latte mochas per day and an extra big screen TV, instead, yu see.)
A lot of people *should* get paid more, but where's the money going to come from?
2
What a pathetic deal for American citizens: ambulance services that bill outrageous out-of-network extortionate amounts, but the service provided by overworked, stressed and grossly underpaid technicians.
In no other first world country do badly injured citizens beg ambulance crews to leave them alone because they are more worried about the 4-figure bills than staunching the bleeding. US healthcare is a house of horrors. We desperately need reform, and the only way to get it is to eject corrupt legislators from both parties, the ones who take funding from vastly profitable sector and dutifully kill any efforts to hold it accountable.
14
What is an appropriate wage? Whatever the free market dictates. If NYC is attracting sufficient qualified candidates with the current pay levels, then they are fine. If not, they are too low.
When you start arguing about what people should be paid as though it were a moral judgment on their inherent value, you start down a rabbit hole. Stay out of the hole!
25
@Citizen
So do you think that the pay of firefighters has been set by the market? If they didn't make 80+ grand and receive a pension in their 40s there would be no firefighters? Your simplistic understanding of the way things work doesn't relate to the real world.
23
@Citizen the dirty little secret is that, although the salary does attract rookies on to the job, the candidate soon realizes that they cannot afford to live in the city and they move on to a job that allows them to feed their family. This means that the EMT or Paramedic who is dispatched to treat your family member often lacks the medical expertise that only comes with experience. It also means that those who choose to stay on the job are often forced to move out of the communities they serve to the less costly suburbs.
23
@Citizen Any EMS provider with a brain leaves the job for something better. The market and the public good don't always align.
15
I worked EMS for 8 years in Upstate, NY before going back to PA school. The situation is not much better anywhere else is the country. The pay, benefits, and working conditions are typically abysmal. Certainly the conditions of patient's homes cannot be controlled for, but the amenities at the station and the conditions of the ambulance (our office) are typically subpar.
From my experience, and shown in the data, most EMTs/paramedics eventually leave to become firefighters, police officers, nurses, PAs, MDs, or just completely leave public service. This is a real brain drain from EMS that leaves behind many young and inexperienced EMS providers. I hope this becomes a more public and pressing issue because, maybe, the work and pay can would get better.
18
When, in our clearer moments, we rationcinate about fairness,
it seems the only answer to all questions on equity is accordingly "Yes," and equity for all.
We then need all those who could work would work and help us all with all the equity we need.
No, it might not pay for all of it, but it would be a good, equitable start.
1
Here in 2019, our world is filled with under payed providers whose work is beyond important. EMT's working in major cities are especially under payed. Just shear numbers justify such a statement.
Unfortunately, this applies to many critical employments. We can only hope that necessary salary adjustments occur.
9
@Steve
Don't forget the underpaid fast food workers
1
Having worked in both the EMS field and the law enforcement field in NYC I feel I am qualified make the following statement; his in the EMS field, while hard working, do not deserve the same pay and benefits as firefighters and police officers.
2
@Dave--Nobody said they should get the SAME pay. They should get better pay, commensurate with the important service they provide.
18
@Dave although you may feel that you are qualified to make the statement that EMS does not "deserve" the same pay and benefits as firefighters and police officers; it is important to know what you are basing your opinion on. I also wonder if your participation in the EMS, law enforcement and firefighting fields was in the capacity of a NYC 911 first responder; a volunteer ambulance service in long island or working as an NYPD school safety officer is not the same as responding to 911 calls and walking through the door to face the unknown side by side with NYPD.
2
Good be Blasio dropped out of the presidential primary since negotiations have gone on for over a year to rectify this issue that is clearly unfair.
6
Actor, singer, athletes, CEOs make $MILLIONS, while those whose efforts mean everything to the average person, struggle to stay even. Teachers, good cops, EMTs, fire fighters, true first responders, nurses, et all, so many people who populate our daily lives should be paid far more, to alleviate their money worries, and let them focus on the jobs they do so well. Tax the rich, cut the "defense" budget, and stop fighting wars over oil.
72
I would agree that the EMS workers should receive higher pay but not necessarily equal pay to the firefighters. The only reason the comparison is made is because they are both in the same department which is a political accident. Firefighting and EMS work are both extremely stressful especially in NYC. However, firefighting requires a level of aggressiveness that exacerbates the level of stress endured by the body. Taking a hose line into a building that is on fire and actually confronting a burning room is far more demanding than working on a patient outside a building. Fire conditions can change rapidly and what may seem like a safe situation can turn deadly instantaneously. There is a high level of risk which takes aggressiveness to overcome. That type of risk is not present in the EMS environment. Take for example the situation of the fire Lieutenant who died in a Manhattan basement fire at the movie set when his air ran out while exiting the basement. Or the example of the Battalion Chief in the Bronx who died when hit by a piece of debris from an exploding drug lab. These situations should not happen but they do and firefighters need a high level of stress inducing aggression to keep going at the job. One of the reasons for the military structure of the Fire Service and all of the rituals when a firefighter dies in the line of duty is to foster and respect that level of commitment.
5
@Speculator
EMT's are often at personal risk from belligerent patients, family members or gangs. Read the reports on assaults on emergency personnel.
There are different skill levels and training for both jobs. Both are important and life-saving. They should be paid the same.
12
"Deserve." What a seductive word. We all deserve more because someone else has more. We see it in advertisements. Politicians love it. Teachers deserve more, EMTs deserve more, servers deserve more. Why? Relative to who or what? And so hard to refute. Of course, we all deserve more, but at whose expense? Who pays? Is an EMT worth as much as a plumber; or a second grade teacher as much as a college professor? Who will happily do the same job for less? Phooey.
8
@Kent Kraus Thanks for bringing a point of view from Alabama to the discussion. What are the people of Alabama doing to elevate their wages, establish workers' rights, and raise their standards of living from the very bottom of American states? Help readers to understand why workers in Alabama seem so docile, helpless, and exploited.
22
@Kent Kraus--Apparently, like tRump, you don't want to pay anyone for their work. Somebody should cut YOUR pay. Phooey.
6
@Kent Kraus next time you have a heart attack call a plumber.
5
The solution is basic math.
Add the payroll of fire and EMT divisions. Add the number of firefighters and EMTs.
Divide.
4
Paramedics have substantial additional training and qualifications to perform emergency life saving procedures in the field. They are also much busier than firefighters now in part due to the drug addiction problem that has hit everyone’s neighborhood. It is only “tradition” that maintains the imbalance in pay and force size between the Paramedics and Firefighters.
Given that the frequency of fires is dropping, and the frequency of Emergency Medical runs is increasing, it would make sense to put more of the people and resources where the are really needed.
35
The taxpayer’s wallet is not bottomless. Bring back the draft and after meeting the recruiting needs of the military services (fewer than 100,000 for all branches/yr) assign the balance of 18 year old males with public school diplomas to police, fire and emergency service agencies, followed by highway crews and parks departments. Any excess could be divided among companies having a hard time staffing like Walmart (never enough people on the floor or at the registers). There with be immediate reductions in defense spending by eliminating $40,000 enlistment bonuses and $50,000/yr NCOs.
10
“18 year old males”, huh? Please note - that issue got sorted out, at least legally, in the seventies.
Although an equal right to be drafted is hardly an equality aspiration.
Don’t know why anyone should be drafted by the state to work in Walmart and zero hours at minimum wage.
2
@From Where I Sit Why limit it to males?
Hahahahaha no. There won’t be another draft nor should there be. Your body belongs to you not the state. But we could stop building multi-billion dollar warplanes, stop building drones to strike foreign school buses, stop having a military presence in every other place you step on this planet, etc. We could also tax the wealth of the Walton family to the hilt and seed that money back into programs for the poor and working class, instead of allowing them to wallow in over a billion dollars while the middle class subsidizes Walmart employees through welfare. So many ways to handle the problem of inequality rather than your idea of drafting the youth of the middle and lower classes (which is who would get drafted).
8
It is also time for teachers and their role as first responders to be considered...No they are not generally packing much of anything at all but their wits and their street cred---but they are so often the first on the scene of very serious and dangerous situations which so often include dozens if not hundreds of students, and adults.
7
The FDNY dispatches an engine company to most medical emergencies and ambulance units to working fires. They treat the EMS as an integral part of their operations (notwithstanding the fact that the EMS was originally part of HHC).
Pay parity is appropriate.
19
I want the person saving my life to be well rested and free of concerns of how they’ll pay the rent. It would also be nice if there would be enough of them to assure a quick response.
41
How much does an EMT get paid after 5 years plus some college and average overtime? Giving starting base salary without overtime or salary steps is unacceptable. Also, firemen get paid too much. Maybe EMT deserve more but firemen deserve less. They work two days a week with 5 weeks of vacation and unlimited sick leave. With overtime, they make well over 100,000 per year. Many retire with generous disability benefits. There is a limitless number of people who would take the job if it was offered tomorrow.
22
Michael Green, you may rely on firefighters some day to save your life. They’re the ones running toward danger, not away from it. Do you really think they should be paid less? Also, you criticize working 2 days a week, but firefighters will often work 24 hour shifts, which makes for a 48 hour work week.
Additionally, overtime for firefighters, EMTs, and paramedics isn’t always a choice. There are minimum staffing levels required, so they can be compelled to extend their shifts.
Finally, many retire with disability benefits because they are disabled on the job. No one seeks out a career as a first responder with the hopes of being crippled on the job. NYC first responders carry heavy patients down flights of stairs. They deal with violent patients who still need medical care. They cope with tragic scenes on a hourly basis. After firefighters pull patients from a burning building, it’s the medics who have to treat that injured and suffering patient. Please, don’t make the argument that these people aren’t deserving of fair wages, useful benefits, and some thanks.
18
Interesting. Here in Columbus, Ohio all EMTs were first firefighters who received additional training. So in general an EMT would make MORE money than someone who is only qualified as a firefighter.
The son of a close friend is a firefighter/EMT in Columbus and he has noted that the profession has gone from one where you fought fires and occasionally dealt with medical emergencies to one where you deal with medical emergencies daily but only occasionally fight fires.
33
I worked EMS in Boston in the early 90’s, a time with much higher rates of shootings and fewer effective treatments for communicable hazards like HIV, not to mention the environmental hazards like the diesel fumes one is constantly exposed to. At max I was paid $7.25/hr ($14/hr in today’s money). I sustained a back injury carrying overweight patients out of their apartments and lifting them into the ambulance (this was before hydraulic stretchers) that troubles me still.
I am now a physician (not in emergency medicine) but EMS was my favorite time in medicine. However the pay, danger, and lack of career advancement made it a dead end job.
It is a profession that deserves better.
87
I think anyone that does a stressful critical job at odd hours where lives are at stake should be compensated above and beyond. Unfortunately our society is one where the people that contribute the least to society make the most....
Our business schools, our politicians and the elite have structured it that way. Welcome to the new caste system!
25
While you’re bleeding out, waiting for a EMT to arrive hopefully before you die, consider that your wait time has a direct correlation with the base pay for a EMT, it is at the point that only people that genuinely want to provide a public service would accept. As you fade away think about how if the pay was better there would be people lining up to be EMTs. Hopefully the EMT won’t fall asleep behind the wheel while coming to save you because they’re into the 60th hour of their shift to make ends meet.
No one should have to work overtime just to support themselves.
48
@Paulie - You're right. But how about the EMT takes a job as a firefighter?? You like that side of the street.... work that side of the street.
2
I come from a long line of fireman and medics. These jobs are not comparable. Both jobs are extremely important but not comparable nor should they be. Fireman deal with issues far beyond that of medics. This equity proposal is ridiculous. My grandfather died due to a collapsed lung and died on a surgical table on Christmas Eve. His lungs were severely damaged due to a lifetime of exposure as a fireman. He worked the riots in Baltimore. Our family medics while amazing do not have anywhere near the risks fireman have. The day I see a medic run onto a collapsing roof to save someone is the day they get pay equity. Fireman routinely face obscene hazards medics simply do not have. Perhaps during 9/11 but still not the same. They are paid well and appreciated. This fight over everyone bring equal is ridiculous, because it simply isn’t true.
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@Location01 you say that “Fireman routinely face obscene hazards medics simply do not have.”
This argument is often made to justify the pay gap. But, consider this... EMTs and Paramedics routinely face the risk of contracting disease from the sick people that they treat. The firefighter who, sadly, dies in a roof collapse will get the headlines while the EMS provided may die in obscurity 10 years later. Not to mention that the EMS provider risks bringing that disease home to her family. Firefighters aren’t bringing their risks home to their kids.
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EMTs, ambulance drivers have always only gotten minimum wage. Yes they should get more however they do not risk their lives the way firefighters do hence the pay discrepancy.
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If there is such a thing as the Security Guard Association of America that honors Americans who have made great contributions to advancing the job opportunities available to security guards by allowing military-grade weapons to flourish throughout the country in the hands of lunatics, their next annual meeting should be devoted to extolling the work of President Donald Trump.
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"Paramedics and E.M.T.s are just as professional as firefighters..."
Ha. They are so much more professional, so much better trained, so much calmer in stressful situations, so much more capable of working independently, and do so much more good (saving lives and providing medical care in an era when fireproof construction and smoke detectors have made fires a rarity) that there really is no comparison.
EMS deserves AT LEAST parity with Fire, if not more.
They also deserve to be legally designated as the fourth of NYC's Uniformed Services (currently Police, Fire and Sanitation).
Anything less is a slap in the face.
Disclosure: I am an MD who was a NYC*EMS Paramedic through the 1990s.
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The Times compares the pay of an Emergency Medical Technician to firefighter and finds the pay comes up short. How does it stack up to other medical technicians?
A quick search puts the pay for a technologist - a highly skilled analytical job requiring a 2 yr training period - about $85K; the pay for someone who draws your blood closer to $40K.
Given the training, the responsibility, the shift hours, and the diverse situations to which a EMT or paramedic must respond, higher pay is reasonable. We pay people who analyze But then again, so is a very high level of performance.
I'd say that the lower pay compared to firefighters is not the result of discrimination, but rather the continued devaluation of medical pay as we push the primary treatment down to lesser paid people in order to save money.
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What you are actually pointing out is the fundamental issue with government provided services. As a monopoly provider the balance of compensation and performance are opaque at best and simply poor at worst. The pay should reflect the value they are providing and not some arbitrary definition cooked up by the Editorial board. In addition, how they are judged and compensated is not around the job but should reflect their individual performance.
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Hazard pay in dangerous places like cities, great. But EMTs are technicians, not members of a profession like nursing or medicine.
Emergency Medical Technicians are different from Paramedics. The equivalency would be a licensed vocational nurse vs a RN. EMTs and Paramedics are no less professionals than RNs or MDs. Hour for hour paramedic school is the same if not longer than associate level RN programs. The pay will be commensurate when emergency medical service workers buy lobbyists the way nursing and medicine has. Don’t underestimate the knowledge your prehospital care provider has & support legislation that improves their work environment and pay. Remember- most nurses won’t actually do an IV on a patient until they get their first job. Paramedics are licensed after an internship that is more similar to a physician residency. What you call professionalism in the medical field is really just the political power medicine and nursing have to garner occupational control in a capitalist healthcare economy. They simply have more of the reimbursement pie than paramedics do.
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@20 Year Paramedic sorry, wrong. Excellent motor skills does not a profession make. Say, let's make physician training 6 months to a year. And who needs no stinkin' 4 years of college before that?
@20 Year Paramedic I am an RN. In no way is paramedic education or practice abilities equivalent to a physician nor an RN. Their skills and education are just different. Each profession has its place. When serving patients we all work together stepping aside to allow each of us to do what we best know how to do. We should all be paid a living wage. The nursing profession has a history that includes being overworked, receiving less that a living wage, no pensions, no health insurance and no one interested in making up these deficiencies. It has only been perhaps 20 years since we have received better pay etc in certain situations. And this is because there are so many other wonderful professions we can pursue rather than nursing. There are situations when we should be compensated for hazard pay. Anyone in a helping profession is at risk for physical and psychological injury of different degrees. In my time as a nurse unions have made a big difference in standing behind us to support our needs and patient needs in workplaces along with supporting fair pay.
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As a physician in an ER, I commend the outstanding work of the city's EMS workers. They are our eyes, ears, hands -- and brains -- before a patient gets to our ER. New Yorkers should be thankful for their skill and dedication.
I would hope they would be paid fairly. This article compares their pay to fire fighters, but lets look at other public servants. Postal workers average $45K per year in NYC -- EMS personnel should surely be paid much more than a postal worker. A nurse in NYC averages $84K/year.
Of course, when the Mayor only works 4 hours a week it is unlikely this issue -- or any other issue in NYC government -- will get addressed.
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@ER Doc they are our eyes, ears blah, blah, blah. Of course the physician has to make it about them.
@ER Doc,
Is the massive OT earned by EMS workers factored into their pension? If it is, this makes the low pay much more bearable. Federal Postal employees OT is not factored in their much less lucrative pension.
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Then there is the whole risk of death and bodily injury firefighter face that paramedics don’t. We pay for the risk factor, don’t we?
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@Sailor Sam so you pay for the risk but not also the lives that are being saved every day, from cardiac arrest, to hypoglycemia patients and even seizures and the list goes on. I've been with the dept for 5 years and saved so many lives I've lost count. I've had firefighters begging us for help when their partner lost consciousness and are unable to mange and on the other had I've had patients throwing body fluid in my face... the risk ems face are endless and we respond to every call we aren't allowed to just relax.. please be aware of what you say because in NYC if you call 911 it will be us the responses and take the risk of putting our safety aside to save your life.
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@Sailor Sam did you read the article? EMTs often perform their life saving work under dangerous conditions beside firefighters. Then there’s the out of control patients and the risk of contracting diseases.
Also consider the wages for the reason you will have to wait a few more agonizing minutes when help is needed because there’s not enough people willing to work for such low pay.
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@Sailor Sam
Firefighters live longer than the average person (source: Calper’s own retirement data). Firefighting is not in the top 25 most dangerous professions (NPR, BLS). Here in California firefighters can retire as early as age 50 and a typical pension is in the six figures, adjusted annually for inflation, along with full medical benefits for life. There is a reason why every firefighting position that opens has thousands of applicants: it’s a fun, highly respected profession with huge smounts of time off, and there is a huge pot of taxpayer gold at the end.
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Granted, a firefighter’s role has a more life imperiling mode. However, if you use that logic, salary should not be the basis for a pay difference. Rather, firefighters could be paid a premium for actual fires a company is called to and ‘battle pay’ credited to the firefighters who actually were involved. And, since the outcome of death to a fireman is a loss of life and loss of salary, perhaps the other offset would appropriately be a significant death benefit ( life insurance payout ) for the tragedy when if occurs. Not to pay the thousands of firefighters a higher base when it does not occur which is 99.99/100
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What about a fireman who is also an EMT? One of my nephews is a fireman in the Atlanta area. He is also an EMT. He excels in both capacities but does not have a college education, thus probably hampering his promotion probabilities. To me, what he is being paid is not commensurate to his qualifications, experience, and performance.
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@cark I completely agree with this. If someone is dual trained they are worth more. Unions need to move beyond the old seniority based model to something based on training and job performance. Unions need to stay but evolve. They refuse to evolve or try anything new.
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Re: "...hat about a fireman who is also an EMT?" {@cark}
A LOT of the NYFD / NYPD / PAPD folks I served, with WERE EMT-Basics, EMT-Defibs / Paramedics...who left EMS for other services due to pay / working con ditions / hazards / stress!
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The EMTs need better union leadership. Times have changed, thankfully, and they’re providing most of the service.
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I believe in equal pay although I don't believe the pay difference has anything to do with discrimination. I was shocked at the overtime numbers of the fire department, paid to sleep! Use that money to give the EMTs a raise. I see them all the time responding to a call, many times just two of them while two fire trucks worth of firefighters stand around and watch them.
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I would agree with this equity argument for EMTs.
The same principle holds true in general. If the federal minimum wage had kept up with CEO pay increases and perks, it would be $33/hour today instead of $7.25. ( Counterpunch).
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Thank you for publishing the truth about EMS under the fire service. The numbers are clear; the FDNY is really an EMS service that occasionally fights a fire.
It’s time they treat the real workers fairly.
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This article should have been clearer about the base pay. $35,000. This is incredible when one thinks about their workload and EMT skill set.
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...Starting: $27K (1983)
...Top: $35K (1988)
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Its nice to see a major publication point out the disparities in this line of work. I can probably count on one hand the number of fellow EMS workers who rely on either OT or multiple jobs to make ends meet.
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@Peter
whoops, I meant to type "who don't rely"
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NYC EMT's and Paramedics do not belong under FDNY. They were treated with far more respect and had their clinical skills recognized when they worked under HHC.
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The merge of EMS with FDNY under the Giuliani administration was for political reasons; not for the benefit of the EMTs and Paramedics in the field. Now that they are under the umbrella of FDNY, EMS providers should benefit from the same perks as firefighters. They are in the front line as First Responders, a welcomed site when a crisis occurs, a calming voice in a medical or traumatic emergency. Always on call, responding all hours. Their service, like firefighters and NYPD is invaluable and should be compensated appropriately.
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@LBQNY
"... not for the benefit of the EMTs and Paramedics..."
Also, significantly, not for the benefit of the people of NYC.
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Base pay for an EMT is approximately 35,000. While this article shows low numbers, the base is about 15,000 lower! Even more of a reason to increase the pay
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