Trump Lawyers Argue He Cannot Be Criminally Investigated

The president’s legal team is trying to block a subpoena seeking his tax returns, claiming that any criminal investigation of Mr. Trump is unconstitutional.

Comments: 207

  1. The only constitutional issue raised by this is Trump's constant proclivities towards ignoring it.

  2. Constitutional issues??? Since when has Trump or his team known/cared about the Constitution?

  3. @Guy Same as all Republicans, it's there when it's convenient, it's not when it poses any semblance of an obstacle.

  4. @Guy To Trump and his Republican lackeys, the Constitution consists of the 2nd amendment and a bunch of words that can be ignored.

  5. @Guy Actually, he's right that this raises "serious constitutional issues" ... Kiss the Constitution good-bye if he gets his way, that's what the issue is.

  6. The first business of the next Democratic President is to put an end too all these exaggerated claims of executive privilege and national security once and for all. With a Democrat in the White House, there will be Republican votes for whatever to takes to reign in runaway executive power, enacting into updated law all that was customary or relied upon untested law with legally exploitable holes. Our democracy is too important to be subject to legal maneuvering stall tactics, waiting on the courts to get around to interpreting laws passed under the presumption of a well-intention President. Trump has proved how vulnerable is democracy in America.

  7. @RRI Also, Congress must reassert its powers over trade. Allowing this person to unilaterally slap tariffs on our most important trading partners, thus putting our agricultural sector under immense pressure and indirectly resulting in Amazon's terrible fires, and making us pay welfare to rich corporate farmers, is really nuts. I'd like to see Mitch McConnell pay for all he's done to undermine American power and democracy.

  8. I’m looking forward to the Corrupt Political Parties Act of 2121. We should have had it sooner, but the Senate has been hijacked by a corrupt political party.

  9. What is in those returns that he is so determined to protect? It's time for a true patriot in the IRS to step forward and leak those returns. History and the vast majority of your fellow Americans will thank you.

  10. @john If only it were that simple. First, trump's tax returns (as well as those of many other individuals in the public eye) — personal and corporate, federal and state — are closely guarded within the IRS. Access is restricted to an extremely small number of the Agency's staff members with a specific need for that particular return, by entity, jurisdiction and period. Second, each access instance is electronically recorded, including name, location, access type, date, time, duration and purpose. So, it's not really a question of being a "true patriot." An IRS inside job in this case would be either impossible or suicidal.

  11. I think a leak would play right into Trump’s narrative of a deep state coordinating with the media to take him down. While Mueller’s report was a disappointment to many of us, it was principled and done by the book, and that is how the tax returns should be acquired. Doing these investigations ethically and within established legal frameworks makes them credible, and will pay enormous dividends when this gets to the endgame.

  12. @john Just look how Americans have thanked Edward Snowden. Isn’t the whole point of this exercise to intimidate others from coming forward; normalizing, and insuring future whistleblowers are indefinitely silenced and beholden too? Read the legacy OIC opinions, where Mr. Alito and many others serving this Administration paved the way for this very moment, to test this very issue, in front of this type of very conflicted and Illegitimate Supreme Court. It will most assuredly not go well for the already gutted Constitution or our Broken Democracy. While our own Congress is weak and Powerless, if not strategically Barred from acting, the Foreign dignitary in question, is not.

  13. He said he would. He lied. First of many. This should bother anyone with a conscience. It doesn't seem to. What has happened to my country?

  14. @Stephanie, it’s dying.

  15. @Stephanie Very simply, his base has no conscience. I never realized how many ugly Americans lived here. I would have never guessed that such a large portion of our population could support someone as vile and reprehensible as trump. My Pollyanna eyes have truly been opened.

  16. @Stephanie What happened to our country is voter apathy and indifference, and a Republican Party that gets away with anything because of the high holy words of the corporate beltway media: ' krupt duopoly' 'both sides to blame'.

  17. Stalling, stalling, and more stalling. But that's not going to stop time or the inevitable. The clock is ticking. Democracy is frustratingly slow, but it must be.

  18. He Lies about everything of consequence -- what could be more consequential than his tax returns?

  19. I haven't seen the lawsuit or if any motion for temporary restraining order/preliminary injunction has been filed, but it seems that unless and until a federal court issues an injunction prohibiting the subpoenaed parties from releasing the subpoenaed documents, such parties are required to comply with Vance's subpoenas. If I'm Cyrus Vance, unless a federal court orders that the subpoenaed parties not comply with the subpoenas, I'd go ahead and enforce them (by asking the state court to hold them in contempt). And even if a federal court issues such an order, I'd still consider enforcing the subpoenas to bring this issue to a much quicker resolution as opposed to allowing Trump to tie this issue up in the courts until after the election. Force the federal court to start jailing Vance and state court judges any such unconstitutional injunction. Newsflash: no federal judge is going to go along with Trump's frivolous legal tricks if you force his or her hand.

  20. @Jason Depends on the Judge. No offense but the real newsflash is our Judicial system is also corrupt. Do you honestly believe these Judges are "impartial?" If the Judge is a Republican he/she is going to cover Trump's backside. Our democracy is in tatters for many reasons. Greed and power rule. And the checks and balances have disappeared. The wheels of Justice don't move slow. They don't move period. They get greased by politicians.

  21. @Hedonikos I agree that our courts have been largely politicized (including some corruption). But I'm a lawyer and based on my experience and knowledge, I don't think this is a universal truth. On the federal side, lifetime judicial appointments do have the effect of allowing judges to be somewhat politically neutral (even thought the appointment process permits the President/Senate to select judges by ideology). On the state side, New York state judges are going to act in the interest of their constituents (who largely oppose Trump). It will be interesting to see what Vance and the New York courts do in the face of Trump's federal lawsuit.

  22. Funny that Trump should be worried about the Constitution now, after he has effectively shredded it at the national level. Before he was president, Trump could use the courts to threaten any opponent, few of whom could not afford to meet him in the courtroom in response. Fortunately, state and federal governments have greater resources and, at least in theory, greater staying power. What worries me now, though, is that Trump continues to use the same playbook -- to stall and stall and stall -- and at least at the national level it appears to be working. There doesn't seem to be anyone in Congress willing or able to hold him accountable. I guess our only hope is that New York will follow through on the job Congress should have done years ago.

  23. Congress is trying. The Trump-GOP obstruction is working because the courts have to weigh in. Stall. Stall. Stall.

  24. When will Nancy Pelosi and the house of representatives finally get their guts up and do their constitutional duty and hold this president and his administration accountable? When will it happen? Nancy Pelosi is the problem, not Donald Trump. She has immense power to LEAD, but she refuses to use it. Many say that Nancy Pelosi is a smart and Wiley adversary, carefully biding her time. Many Americans including me completely disagree and think that she is giving up congressional powers and forever undermining our American system. Whether impeachment works or not, it will at least do what our founding fathers expected. Until Nancy Pelosi and the house of representatives choose to act, and this American president and the Senate will run ram-shod.

  25. @Brett B You may be correct about Pelosi's reluctance but remember that 98% of the voting public sees impeachment as equivalent to conviction. Since the republican senate is totally lacking in respect for the constitution they would let him off completely and he could then brag about how he had been found not guilty on all counts which might give him enough help along with Russian intervention to win in 2020

  26. @Brett B I'm beginning to think that the Democrats are as much of a problem as the Republicans. We need a do over -- throw out all of the incumbents. All of them.

  27. @Bunbury It is up to Democrats to educate the public. The first step is to start the process. This was how it WORKED the last time during Watergate. The public and Republicans did not get on board until far into the process. The Democrats must act - or they will lose. Actual impeachment hearing would give the Dems far greater subpoena & investigatory powers. Guaranteed.

  28. The election of this particular trust-funded real estate developer / reality-show TV host raised "significant constitutional issues" as well. Didn't prevent it from happening. Let's see the returns, Don.

  29. “You don’t learn anything from a tax return." -Trump 2016. I beg to differ. I implore the Congressional Democrats to fight for the release of these returns with full force, it will undoubtedly lead to some interesting findings. Follow the money and take him down once and for all.

  30. Just imagine the Constitutional issues created by having a sitting President indictable for multiple serious criminal offenses, including tax and bank fraud, conspiring with a hostile foreign leader to influence an election and while in office, corrupt use of his office for personal profit, campaign finance violations, other charges yet to uncovered involving foreign banks and countries, and of course, obstruction of justice regarding all of the above. Now imagine we have a Senate Majority Leader enabling all of the above by refusing to perform constitutionally required oversight of the Executive Branch, as well as having his own and spousal issues with foreign governments and US business. Now that would be some kind of Constitutional crisis.

  31. @Look Ahead Worse, we have a Speaker of the House also enabling all of the above by refusing to lead on this issue. You are 100% correct. We are already in the midst of a Constitutional crisis, with none of the parties willing to uphold the laws and the very founding document they all swore to protect.

  32. @Look Ahead-Let's not forget the complicity of a cover up & obstruction of justice by the "Justice Dept".

  33. @Look Ahead We don't have to imagine it. It's here.

  34. He was clear that he would release his taxes when the audits were completed. Can the IRS just put out a statement indicating that there is no active audit so that this issue is off the table?

  35. @mjc No, they cannot. But whether he is under audit or not is just a distraction and has nothing to do with him releasing his returns. He just doesn't want to was never going to and that's that.

  36. He’d block the IRS from issuing any such statement. And no matter what, he’s gonna continue obstructing the release of his tax returns. He’s obviously hiding some very shady things.

  37. The constitution never was meant to protect criminal behavior.

  38. @John Mardinly I’ll bet Russell Pearce would disagree with you. And probably the doctor from lake havasu that is in charge of the Arizona Republican Party will as well. Take back the state from the Republican Party and vote

  39. I would agree with the president’s attorney that there are constitutional issues. Such as how many parts of the Constitution has this president violated that would fit the “high crimes and misdemeanors” test that would lead to impeachment and conviction.

  40. No surprise here. Donald Trump has been fighting against revealing his tax returns tongue, tooth, and claw ever since he hit the campaign trail in 2016. At least he's remained true to what he must have learned sitting at Roy Cohn's knee; namely always double-down and then run them into the ground with excessive litigation. And if this all looks suspicious -- it's because it is.

  41. Legal issues aside, whatever is in those tax returns must be really, really bad for Trump. Why else would he fight so hard to keep them secret?

  42. @MNPatt There are plenty of exposed secrets in the Mueller Report and in the NYT story involving Fred, Mary Anne and himself; Yet much of America has not registered on those facts. There is plenty already.

  43. @Bob Guthrie The most important fact is that he is dead broke.

  44. Someone please explain to me how Spiro Agnew could be convicted for crimes committed when he was Baltimore County executive while serving as vice-president, but Trump can't have his tax returns examined for the period he was a private citizen.

  45. @Alley. It is quite simple, Alley. This President has subjugated every person and agency to his personal use. The Senate has subjugated the Courts to the Executive as well. This is what it is like to live in a tyranny, aka dictatorship. Some things do “save” us if you can believe it: Trump cannot keep his mind on something for more than five minutes at a time, he is totally self-serving and also dumb as a block in most other things and unwilling to listen to advice from those with better education and more experience. Unfortunately, these things also make him dangerous for national security. His base is in denial about all of this.

  46. I don't remember seeing anything in the Constitution about tax returns. There is nothing there about executive privilage either.

  47. @Roger Your "leader" said he would release his tax returns after the so called audit. Other than the "McConnell" supreme court judges, what promise has this inept President kept except being a disruptor. He is violating the Constitution by profiting off the Presidency & threatening everyone who stands in his way. Everything this man does is "lawless", destroying our country, like he did everything he touched in business. If you have nothing to hide, why are you fighting with all your might to hide it. A braggart like Trump would revel in revealing a tax return that actually confirmed his boasts. A liar would not.

  48. The more he kicks and screams the more we know that these returns will be damning and revealing. This is something any 4-year old learns, but not the Stable Genius.

  49. Interesting the guy who demanded his predecessor release his birth certificate (which he did, proving Trump was a racist liar all along) won’t release his tax returns, unlike every other president in the last 50 years. What is Donald Trump hiding from the American people?

  50. @Mexican Gray Wolf But the birth certificate was on an island, surrounded by water... big water. Although inconveniently located it was not in Africa. He saw Obama described as an African America so with his very stable genius, Sherlock Trump deduced Obama must have been born in Africa. Its so reassuring having Donald in charge of the nuclear football.

  51. Is anyone else incredibly sick of this guy?

  52. Yes. Also of his flock who think his tweets and sentence structure is literature.

  53. Like half of the country but the other half is not. See the problem? Solution: Red USA & Blue USA Neither side will miss each other one iota.

  54. @Marc I have been since he first started "firing" people on his TV show, and came up with the bogus "birther" nonsense.

  55. His lawyer is right - Trump is a significant constitutional issue. Save the Constitution! Dump Trump!

  56. That fact that Trump is still sitting in the White House raises "significant constitutonal issues."

  57. I think it's fairly obvious by now that Trump is in deep with Russian "Mob Money." The only institution that had dealings with him is the equally corrupt Deustche Bank. When all of his criminality is revealed (and it will be) the last thing he or his family will have to worry about is a "Trump Dynasty"...

  58. @Handy Johnson … from your keyboard to … (whatever higher power you do, or do not, believe in).

  59. Democracy needs a leaker.

  60. I think it's time to set the election machinations aside for a bit and begin crowd-funding a defense war chest for the Patriot or Patriots in the IRS to send Trump's returns to every paper, every TV channel in the country. We need to expose both sides to the facts here. No one with half a brain cell would not keep an election promise to show his returns if he honestly had nothing to hide. They're either on the up-and-up or they're on the down-and-dirty. There's really nothing in between. That he fights like a rabid dog to keep them under cover is proof enough he's got plenty to hide and smells his Bibi comeuppance post tenure.

  61. If only Speaker Pelosi & Chairman Nadler would be straight with the American people: Trump's taxes are not "under audit" but his entire corrupt administration from top to limitless bottom will be

  62. What a surprise! Change the constitution.

  63. Time for a patriot working for the IRS (which is sustained by tax payers money) leaks the returns. I cannot imagine what would happen to him except for being declared a national hero and his photo lithographed on the one dollar bill.

  64. @Blunt Former IRS employee here. Partisan behavior would be ruinous for the organization, which means it would be ruinous for the federal deficit. One has to think about the institution and the public trust. It is the opposite of "move fast and break things".

  65. Thank you for your reply. I am very respectful of our institutions but given what a disaster this man is for our nation and honestly for the world, I don’t know if I would feel bad about a leak here. There has been leaks before and institutions survived.

  66. @Blunt I too have been wishing for this. In addition to someone from the schools he attended to leak his grades.

  67. When did New York become a federal entity?

  68. @GWPDA pennzoi v. texaco, s ct 1987, Section 1983 not grounds for exception to general rule that federal courts shall not enjoin ongong state proceedings . . . even if a federal Dump appointee gets the case, if he has a speck of principle, he will dismiss the case.

  69. @tom What makes this a state proceeding? If they have grounds, NY state can demand tax returns they authority over - state filings, not federal ones. "We want to see them because he's the President" is not a legal reason.

  70. @Viv that isn't the reason they are seeking them. They requested them in the course of a criminal investigation of whether he violated state law.

  71. The Donald promises his returns, then he reneges. Over and over again. The next step is to pardon himself for his crooked tax filings.

  72. @jalexander That (self-pardon or self-whatever-you-want-to-call-it) would be most excellent, since Republicans would be entirely painted into the box in which they have been painting themselves into since January 2017 (or November 2016 -- depending on which so-called "Republicans" we're talking about).

  73. "Significant Constitutional issues": translation, we will have the US Supreme Court weigh in on this. Every day the Trump regime looks more and more totalitarian as all our supposed checks and balances, including the principle of federalism and semi-autonomy for the states, run into the stone wall of a Trump organization formally known as the Attorney General and Justice Department. Let's just call it the regime of Donald I, and dispense with any democratic titles or trappings. And his empress, Melania Antionette Trump telling us if we can't have a democracy, we should just "be better."

  74. It's clear that Trump has much to hide and that he knows it. He's guilty as sin. Hence, his only recourse is to cover up, one way or another and for as long as possible. The assorted sycophants are aiding and abetting, perhaps to their ultimate peril. Recall Watergate, which is beginning to appear pale in an era of Trump.

  75. The fact that Trump is suing (his favorite pastime), shows you something is there. If New York can pull this off, let’s find out what’s what. Otherwise here we go Supreme Court. When California made it mandatory to have elected candidates show tax records, I said Supreme Court here we come. Ladies and Gentlemen, now remember, the Court is _heavily_ biased towards the GOP per Mitch, so no use getting your hopes up. If Trumps tax returns slip through our fingers, then we’ve lost everything.

  76. @PC I believe no fewer than two of the Supreme Court justices ought to recuse themselves from any court cases regarding President Trump.

  77. Amen!

  78. @Rev. Jim Bridges The two that are truly beholden to the despot?

  79. "...seeking Mr. Trump’s personal and corporate tax records raised “significant constitutional issues.” No, it doesn't. It raises personal, criminal and political issues. Let's put down the flag for just a moment and consider all the ways Trump has CHOSEN to enmesh his personal finances, projects, international relationships and his family finances with his role as president. This, in spite of all cautions, warnings, yellow and red flags about his behavior. Still, he kept on co-mingling and ignoring advice. Playing fast and loose got him to this point so, repeat, put down the flag and, for once, accept responsibility.

  80. @SurlyBird, indeed. When Trump started to do public business (Presidential matters) at Mar-a-Lago, then it became public domain.

  81. @SurlyBird, I forgot to add, prior 8 years of income tax returns (as a private person) are necessary to determine if Trump was eligible to even run for President. Far as I know, felons cannot run for public office. I do not think felons can vote but I might be wrong there.

  82. @PC Useful addition. Thanks.

  83. Something I haven't heard about in a long time is where his presidential pay is being donated. He said he didn't need the salary and they he would donate his salary -- where are those donations being made?

  84. How is Trump going to establish any unfair prejudice upon disclosure, or for that matter any legitimate interest in privacy, when he is on record numerous times throughout his campaign promising that he would release his tax returns once the "audit" was over? It is pretty obvious there is no audit and he was lying. But at a minimum, his statements should be deemed admissions that he has no privacy interest in keeping the returns a secret from the public.

  85. If Trump's endlessly repeated boast that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and still not lose his base is true, imagine what must be in those returns. Trump isn't worried about any revelations offending the rest of the country and the world. He's never cared about them and doesn't need them. He's only worried about his base, and so there must be something in there that would cause him to lose his base and Trump knows it would. That's why they are fighting so hard.

  86. Mr. Trump is notorious for not paying his bills, including his legal bills. It would be interesting to know who is paying the legal fees in all of his obstructionist litigation. I have to assume the U.S. taxpayer is not picking up the tab for his personal legal expenses, but it would be reassuring to have the facts.

  87. @T.E.Duggan Not sure that's a safe assumption; after all, we taxpayers are paying Trump every time he, Pence, the military, et al stay at one of his properties. If there's any way he can funnel his personal legal bills to the public dole, no doubt he's already doing it.

  88. @T.E.Duggan Since Personal Trump Lawyer -- I mean Attorney General -- William Barr is paid by the US Government, you bet your tax returns we're paying for all of this.

  89. T.E. Duggan, equally important, how many millions have we taxpayers spent on trump’s frequent trips to play golf? Not just the use of AF1, but the cost of housing & feeding all his aides and secret service agents.

  90. Perhaps a person who so carefully protects their tax returns from prying eyes should be prevented by law from using them in the future for bank loans of any kind. We may never know whether the tax reurns shown to banks were true copies. There are many reasons why a "brilliant businessman" who tends to lie, cheat and sneak around doesn't want a spotlight on his financial history.

  91. @Honey I don't think the Russians ask to see tax returns.

  92. Trump's tax returns must be really bad for him. There is really no other explanation for how hard he is fighting against their release.

  93. Now we’re all curious. The more he fights it the more people want to know.

  94. The tax returns are under audit. Period.

  95. New World, even if they are indeed under audit, there’s nothing preventing their release except trump’s need to hide his shady (and possibly illegal) actions. Until we see them, we can only assume he’s fighting so hard because he has much to hide.

  96. @New World - Actually ... A return is closed three years after filing, unless criminality (fraud) is alleged by the IRS. There is no limitation on tax fraud, but the return is not being "audited." The taxpayer is under investigation for criminal actions.

  97. @New World Yup. And Trump would hire the best people and drain the swamp.

  98. *Lawyers for Trump argued in a lawsuit that he cannot be criminally investigated while in office.* Is that a real thing - a constitutionally mandated dictum?

  99. @Vai it is not.

  100. @liz Thank you.

  101. Honestly, do we really need to see the details to know that there's something crooked going on here. The louder he protests, the more it's painfully obvious that he has something to hide. So, those that are disgusted with his empty promises and the ongoing mindless drama that is the Trump administration just needs to do what they think is right and vote for change in the White House in the next election. I don't need to see his tax returns to know what's effectively in them. And I don't really need to see the details of how rich or poor he is. I already know he's a person of questionable character who shouldn't carry the title of President of the United States. I really don't care if he gets prosecuted or not - I just care that he's not allowed to remain in 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

  102. Re: "...I don't need to see his tax returns to know what's effectively in them..." {@gerard.campione} I'd be in jail were i to respond on my taxes as Emperor_Wannabe Trump, ('allegedly'...L.O.L.!!), has / continues to do...

  103. We all hope the attorney will define "significant constitutional issues" because it appears that Trump and his lawyers are essentially saying he is above the law. If that is the case then the House should request an expedited appeal directly to the Supreme Court. That has been done before and it can be done again. Trump is out of control. Period and end of sentence.

  104. If he can't be investigated, his taxes can't be under audit, and if they can't be under audit, then he can take back all his lines about can't disclose them, they're under audit. I'd almost say I'm okay with him delaying all these investigations if he agrees to serve the rest of his life. In prison. For the crimes he's clearly committed and claimed to be immune from investigation for. He's done the crimes. He has to do the time.

  105. Re: "...I'd almost say I'm okay with him delaying all these investigations if he agrees to serve the rest of his life. In prison. For the crimes he's clearly committed...etc." {@Rob} "When the President does it...it's NOT a crime..." {R.M. Nixon, shortly, before his resignation}

  106. Remember what we are constantly told by our leaders. We are the best country in the world. Yes, in the last 3 years I am convinced about it

  107. Ban shredded cheese. Make America grate again. Seriously, we as a Nation always need to progress, to improve. We have always had imperfections, problems. Greatness is recognizing and accepting this and becoming better. The last 3 years have set us back decades in our attempts to ever make Americans truly great.

  108. Trump, in a 2019 interview with George Stephanopoulos: "When you will see my financial statement -- at some point I assume it's going to be released, you'll be very impressed by the job I've done. Much, much bigger, much, much better than anybody--" Since Trump is always looking for kudos and praise, you'd think he'd be eager to reap the accolades the hanging grapes of such a disclosure would afford. For reasons not yet obvious, he is intent on lessening such glory before the next election. Could he just be playing the humble card?

  109. We all know that Trump uses distraction (for one) as a means of burying his latest crime or foul actions, so what I''m concerned about is what he's going to do to distract congress and US citizens from this demand for his financial statements, including his IRS filings. I wouldn't put it past him to enter into war with Iran. That shoukd keep us busy.

  110. First, somebody should tell Trump's lawyers about this guy Agnew. It was the state of Maryland that brought him down. Second, those lawyers have it exactly backwards. Rather than being immune from investigation the POTUS is most necessary person on the planet to be under the watchful eyes of the press, law enforcement and especially the Congress.

  111. Sadly and ironically, it's with the help of lawyers that our former "government of laws" is slowly degrading into a "government of men."

  112. @Patrick I would argue that with the help of lawyers, Federalist Society-promoted right-wing judges and ideologue AG William Barr we now have a "government of men".

  113. @Patrick Lawyers are like really, really mean economists. They look at one particular speck of an issue, devote their lives and all their energy to demean, discount, dismiss their opponents, and never even imagine there could be a bigger picture. The two professions are expert at applying The Death of a Thousand Eensy Weensy Little Pricks to the democracy the fallaciously claim to serve. Liars and high-flying egos all. And dumb as a stick.

  114. It suddenly occurred to me that we may be presuming that Individual 1 did something that is expected and required of all of us "little people" with respect to tax returns: We told the truth. Given that pretty much anyone given a W-2 has no choice anyway. I'm not so sure I or anyone else would be wise to think that anything on those returns is accurate or truthful.

  115. Multiple people exist who have access right now to those tax returns. It's time for them to leak them. The next president will pardon them (if the act is even illegal, which I doubt.)

  116. Why should the President be immune to the laws of the land. He's a public servant, not an emperor - though he seems to think he is. If anything the higher and more important the office/position the higher a standard they should be held to.

  117. Nothing is more repugnant to a free society than giving a president immunity from criminal prosecution while in office. The person holding the office is a citizen of the United States, not its dictator, king, or queen, and as such is as accountable for breaking the law as the rest of us are. The Constitution is silent on the matter perhaps because it did not occur to the nation's founders that anyone elected to lead the country would be so obvious a law breaker. The authority of Congress to impeach does not preclude a prosecutor from asking a grand jury to consider criminal charges against the presidents or from otherwise investigating an allegation of a their commission of a crime. Of course the current president would have it otherwise. His contempt for the law generally is that much more intense when he is told that the law also applies to him. He believes he could get away with murder--so long as remains in his office, which, to his mind, will be as long as he wants to stay there.

  118. I'm so frightened!!

  119. It is a fundamental aspect of our democracy (and the political tradition from which it emerged) that our leaders are subject to the same laws as everyone else. This was pretty well worked out in 1649 as a consequence of the English Civil War. It is treason to argue the President is above the law.

  120. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind where Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Adams, Franklin, et al personally would stand on whether Trump can be criminally investigated, indicted and tried? Not a lawyer, but I have read the Constitution a few times (the first being more than can be claimed by our current president) and I can't find any language that gives Trump or any president carte blanche to trample every regulation, statute or law in the land with impunity.

  121. I am wondering why the New York Prosecutors did not try to get Trump's New York State tax returns? New York state passed a law, a few months ago, allowing this. By the way, it is tradition that a sitting president cannot be prosecuted for crimes, while in office. It is not a law. Just like the filibuster, is not a law, in the Senate, but a Senate rule. Of course, not matter the wrongs Clinton and Nixon did, they do not approach the criminal activity of Trump the president or Trump the private citizen. Unless Trump wins re-election or refuses to leave office (executive order suspending the Constitution because of a national emergency), he will be a private citizen in just about 16 months.And, soon thereafter, an occupant of SuperMax in Florence, Colorado. The only safe place to put a criminally convicted president.

  122. It’s troubling to see the imperial presidency in action. If Nixon had understood this, would he have resigned?

  123. What makes a serving president different than any other citizen with regard to criminal investigation? The Justice Department point of view is policy, not law. The Justice Department policy should have been long ago tested in the courts, because who wants a person committing criminal acts serving as president? Inability to govern cannot be used as an excuse, since the Constitution and recognized law contains terms of succession in the case the president is incapacitated or dies in office. A return to straightforward logic such as contained in Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" is required instead of legal bafflegab.

  124. @Svirchev It is not even policy--just one memo written by one lawyer who had not been asked for his opinion on any particular case, controversy or set of facts. Just an opinion in think air. Never presented to any court, never tested in a controversy. Mueller was ill-advised to hang so much on this single memorandum.

  125. @Svirchev That 'Policy' also only came about during the Nixon and Clinton Admins, and should be looked at as extremely toxic and proof of trying to amend the system so as to escape paying for their sins. Those memos should be held in the light of "This is what desperate Presidents do", which applies squared and cubed with Trump involved. Natural Law, rather than the flimsy house of cards built by Esquires to the B.A.R. which were built to shield the rich from the impending legal and real complaints of the poor: The Law became a shield behind which big crooks flourish at the cost of the weeds around them, the majority of the population being weeds at their feet in their minds. If The President, who is supposed to be someone we can honestly look up to, has demeaned himself, his position and off ice as well as the entire Nation by not admitting even to himself that this is a job that is beyond his capability to effectively conduct, especially since it throws his whole criminal syndicate into the limelight for open examination. He is on a stage for all to see, his foibles and good points all to see, and all we can see is a crook who keeps trying to hide behind his lies tot he point he has no clue what 'Reality' is (Thumbs up and a big grin while trying to console child of mass-murdered parents is not it) His crimes have been broad an ongoing, and his lies do not cover it, so Republicans, please stop shielding him just because you get a few bennies that HURT most of America.

  126. The constitution allows that a President can be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. How are those high crimes and misdemeanors supposed to be investigated if the President can shield himself by the argument that you can't indict a sitting President. Or how is he allowed to shield himself by use of executive privilege. By his argument, a sitting President can never be impeached because the government is not allowed to investigate any wrong doing.

  127. The notion that the president cannot be investigated or indicted is based on a DOJ policy memo, that's all. It's not law and it's not a regulation. The Dems should challenge it straight away.

  128. Cyrus Vance needs eight years of tax returns to investigate something that happened in 2016. Sure. That makes sense. This is not a fishing expedition designed to leak the returns. There are never grand jury leaks. Never.

  129. @J.S.: actually, that's the minimum for this type of investigation. I'm sure Mr. Trump's returns are not 1040-A, fill-in-the-blanks like yours. There are tax strategies and schemes businesses and wealthy individuals use that frequently take years of returns to reveal how a number at Point A in 2008 got to Point Z in 2018.

  130. @J.S. But it makes sense to you that the President can never, ever be subject to a criminal investigation?

  131. Show us the paragraph in the Constitution that gives the President immunity from criminal prosecution while on office. If it is not found or explicitly addressed in the Constitution, then it there is absolutely no reason to conclude that the President is immune. It is not an "open question". Why should it be?

  132. it never ceases to amaze me how these guys continue to claim falsely, that the exercise of rightful congressional oversight is a violation of the constitution. this IS the function of the congress, built in by the founders, to prevent the criminal activity that has become so routine, wide spread and prevalent with this administration.

  133. This idea of the royal presidency must be stopped right now. The country was founded in part to escape the tyranny of English nobility and no one I know is ready to revisit that topic.. It is time for the Attorneys General of all the rational states to file suit demanding the Constitution and all its amendments be followed and enforced when necessary. It becomes more evident every day with every excessive and illegal move that this administration feels it has the power to run rampant over us and our laws. Since the Justice Department has clearly become the dumpster's vassal we must pursue means beyond the Federal Government. Is it possible for a hundred million or so of us can petition the Ninth Circuit for relief from this gang? "Will no one free us from this turbulent scoundrel" to paraphrase Henry II. And no, I'm not looking for a couple of guys with swords. We may just have to impeach him ourselves; after it is the American Way.

  134. "The Constitution does not explicitly address the issue, and the Supreme Court has never answered the question." End of story. Memos during the Nixon Administration? Memos? Yikes!

  135. So, if the Constitution provides for impeachment of a President for high crimes or misdemeanors, how can a sitting President be considered immune from criminal prosecution. Is the AG's policy in this regard founded on legislation, law, or is it just, policy?

  136. "The president’s legal team is trying to block a subpoena seeking his tax returns, claiming that any criminal investigation of Mr. Trump is unconstitutional." This from an administration that violates the constitution on an almost daily basis? That's rich.

  137. Does any American with any knowledge of the Constitution believe that the framers intended the president to be above the law? The intention was to avoid anyone becoming a despotic king, and yet according to Trump's lawyers, it's perfectly alright for him to commit any crime he wishes without fear of prosecution. Perhaps Trump was more prescient than I thought when he declared "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters, okay?".

  138. @Philz No, but a significant minority don't care.

  139. As this story of the Trump presidency has unfolded, I am more and more convinced that Stormy Daniels should have held out for WAY more money.

  140. The idea that a sitting president cannot be subject to criminal indictment and prosecution because the legal process would be a hindrance and a disruption presumes that said president is fulfilling the duties and responsibilities of the office. This is not applicable to the current occupant of the White House.

  141. Even if it's true that a sitting president can't be charged, he can be charged *after* he leaves office, and discovery needs to start as soon as the wrongdoing is suspected, to ensure he can be charged before the statute of limitations runs out on the crime. (which could be only 5 - 7 years, which doesn't leave much time for investigation of there's a 4 year delay before it can even start).

  142. @JohnF He can be impeached but he's got his heels dug in to run the clock out

  143. @MJ - I assumed it was the democrats delaying the impeachment to ensure it's front page news during the peak of election season.

  144. Don't people wonder why trump will not reveal his tax returns, when everyone else has? ALL ELECTED OFFICIALS must disclose this information, and always have. Trump should, more than others, because of his ties with Russian oligarchs, his bankruptcies, lawsuits, his many investigations, etc. Not hard to see how corruption grows, but taxes would tell much. What is he hiding??

  145. "...Mr. Trump’s lawyers.. wrote that state and local prosecutors were particularly susceptible to opening investigations to advance their careers at the expense of the federal government." Gee, I guess if they're so 'particularly susceptible' it must have tried a whole bunch of times, probably hundreds at least. That would be the obvious proof of susceptibility, right? Mr. Trump's lawyers then add, “A county prosecutor in New York, for what appears to be the first time in our nation’s history, is attempting to do just that.” Memo to self: When I need an attorney, do not ask Donald for referrals.

  146. Interesting that Trump's own lawyers jump to the conclusion there is enough info in his taxes for a criminal investigation. It sounds like Manhattan's request is to simply a look at his taxes. If there is nothing to be seen there, what's the problem?

  147. @SLB That is just what I was thinking. How can this be a "criminal investigation" when the request simply asks to see Trump's tax returns? But your first sentence says it all - "Trump's own lawyers jump to the conclusion there is enough info in his taxes for a criminal investigation." Obviously, they know something that they want kept hidden, and once found, would surely lead to a criminal investigation. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

  148. What if the sitting president was a democrat and was trying to do the same thing, ie claim a sitting president cannot be investigated for crimes while in office? Imagine the sputtering outrage and indignation from the GOP? Would they accept this unproven claim with no constitutional backing?

  149. I couldn’t agree more. But at this point you’re stating the obvious

  150. @Brian Whistler I think it's time we just ignore the Right. They were "outraged" by too much shoulder on a teenager. But completely silent on a president buying a hooker. They have no moral standing anymore. When you meet one, simply turn 180 and walk away. 12000+ lies says they have nothing that can be trusted to hear. They get sent back to the kiddie table. The adults are talking now.

  151. @Brian Whistler - No, they would not accept it and would do something about it even if it was super underhanded. Democrats, however, do nothing but lament to the media rather than use the power at their disposal. If I ever had to go into battle or just a street fight, the last thing I would want at my side is a Democrat. I get more fight trying to open a container of boiled shrimp than I do from Democrats.

  152. Of course, his lawyers would claim that he can't be criminally investigated. It's the evasion he does so often and, so far, so effectively. With Republicans rapidly filling vacancies on Federal courts, this legal issue may eventually be decided in Trump's favor. Imperial presidency? Yes. The vast and likely long-lasting damage from the 2016 election is indeed profound. The damage from another Trump election victory is unimaginable.

  153. Well, at least we’ve cut out the middleman here. Never mind the subtleties, now Trump is just openly claiming to be above any and all laws. To paraphrase the man himself, he’s trying to make his “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue” claim actually come true. Any judge should toss immediately toss this noxious idea into the circular file, after a several-minute delay for laughter. But with the number of right-wing Republican-appointed judges now in the system who seem to think the Constitution calls for a King rather than a President, one can’t be fully confident of that.

  154. "Lawyers for President Trump argued in a lawsuit filed on Thursday that he cannot be criminally investigated while in office". Then at the very least, he should not be able to secure a nomination to become reelected. Also, investigations could be allowed to quietly progress, but with the understanding, that prosecution has to be delayed until a president is out of office. "temporary immunity". But only until the end of the current term. The American people deserve and need to know the facts about who they are committing to vote for.

  155. The key phrase is "while he is serving as president." We can fix that part in one of two ways: impeachment or defeat at the polls. Yes, yes. He won't be removed because there are no defenders of law, Constitution and national security in the Republican Party, but make them show how corrupt THEY are by a roll call vote, if Moscow Mitch will allow it. And if he won't, well, vote HIM out of office.

  156. Significant constitutional issues is precisely what this is all about. The constitution and broader law were not written to protect one elected official from the justice system.

  157. “It is an open question whether sitting presidents are immune from prosecution while in office. The Constitution does not explicitly address the issue, and the Supreme Court has never answered the question.” Apparently, he is immune because they say so, and all of his actions seem to reflect that belief. When we hear politicians say no one is above the law, after questions arise concerning possible illegal acts by or at the behest of a sitting president, we expect them to mean it. Instead, we have a war of words between the defenders of the divine right of President Trump and the Democrats who three years after he assumed the office, remain gobsmacked by the brazen flouting of laws and norms on display every day. What are they waiting for? Now we are on the brink of another war in the Mideast. Environmental degradation seems to be a Republican goal. An urgent matter was reported to the DNI by a whistleblower in the intelligence community and he refuses to share details with the Congressional Intelligence Committee as set forth by law, something is very wrong with this. I remember a phrase uttered by President Obama that seems applicable, it referred to the “fierce urgency of now”.

  158. At this pace in 2023 we will still be reading how the NY State AG is trying to obtain President Trump’s tax returns.

  159. Vance, for what it's worth, is a county rather than a state prosecutor. New York County. There are something over 3000 counties nationwide. If the prevailing view is that a sitting President is not subject to a Federal indictment it would seem unlikely that every county across the country should be entitled to take a shot at him.

  160. @Frunobulax The difference is that county prosecutors don't work for the president. A federal indictment is issued by the authority of the federal president. A county prosecutor derives his or her authority from the people of the county or State, usually via the constitution of the relevant State. That authority is entirely independent of the president of the United States. Nothing in the Constitution makes the federal president the ruler over the States' criminal justice systems.

  161. I grasp the distinction but I don't see that argument prevailing. The underlying reasoning for not indicting a sitting President doesn't change irrespective of the sovereign.

  162. @Frunobulax The crimes were committed in NY county. It is also Trump's legal home residence. Although with multiple properties in NY and elsewhere maybe that is complicated. But to NY"s, Trump Tower is Trump's home because we spend a fortune maintaining security for him there when he isn't busy golfing in NY, NJ or Palm Beach. It must be tough being in Washington those few days a week.

  163. The power and authority to investigate and try a sitting president belongs to Congress. The House can draw up and pass Articles of Impeachment (essentially an indictment) and then the Senate, under the auspices of the Chief Justice, hears and tries the case. The move by the Manhattan DA might be a way for the House to finally obtain copies of Trump's personal and business taxes since the direct order from the House to the IRS is being ignored. The interesting thing is to look at a hypothetical: What if Carter or Obama had taken a similar stance with Congress? Would the Republicans supported "executive privilege" would the Democrats have stonewalled? We cannot be sure but, my guess is that the democrats would not have stonewalled, but since that never happened, we will never know for sure. In the meantime we have an ever growing pile that is really beginning to smell. Questionable financial dealings, hidden tax records, somebody reporting on something that Trump said to a foreign leader that is questionable,... I'm sure there is more to come. While actual impeachment is not a viable option the garbage barge of questionable activity is fodder for whoever the Democrats nominate. We have a highly questionable person in the office of POTUS and it is time to ignore his "Fake News" rhetoric and as the American People what they think. The best way to impeach Trump comes in November 2020.

  164. If Trump’s lawyers are astonishingly and truly arguing that the president "cannot be criminally investigated," then what does this say about his criminality, and what does it say about a Congress that is charged with the responsibility of executive oversight, and what does it say about the security of the country in which this circus is running day after day?

  165. @John LeBaron Why are we allowing any of this to happen. The Trump Family Circus, led by the Orange ringmaster in the center of the big tent with his whip and his trained bear "Putie" The master of deflection refuses to admit he is overmatched to the office. It was never what he desired, to be POTUS. Now, he plays golf, and campaigns endlessly at his rallies, fundraising for a 2nd term, I thought he was "really rich" and didn't need to spend anyone else's money. Today he complained about the cost of running Guantanimo. What about the cost of his golf trips, He has done nothing for the country but blow the tired racial dog whistles the whites in the rural south are fond of since Johnson passed the civil rights act and lost the south for 50 years. We need to admit that the politics of the last election were a backlash against having a dark-skinned man in the white house. How can Kentucky hold it's head up supporting Mitch McConnell supposedly fighting the good fight against the Chinese when his wife is posing with her father soliciting favors from Bejjing

  166. I had been under the impression that he could not be indicted for crimes committed in the course of his actions *as president*, since the remedy the founders intended was impeachment. Why would there be an assumption of immunity for acts committed prior to taking office (which is what Vance is investigating)? It seems like it would be perfectly appropriate to investigate, and indict for such acts (so that there's no issue with the statute of limitations)...then to defer prosecution until the President leaves office. Though clearly the founders never imagined the legal challenges that could emerge when a person of truly abysmal character assumes the presidency, since that was what the electoral college was meant to stave off, rather than being an emergency backstop for a rural minority.

  167. Given all the hidden taxes, Trump's lawyers continually damping down criminal investigations, along with the facts available to the public already make Trump guilty as sin mean nothing if the Senate remains in power under Mitch McConnell. That will be the real crime. Even if a Democratic president is elected.

  168. As far as I can recall no citizen of the US has inherent immunity from either investigation or prosecution while holding public office. Trump’s position is ludicrous as it would put the President on par with Louis XVI and we all know how France dealt with Citizen Louis. We are a nation of laws that apply to everyone and making officials immune to these laws makes the possibility of a French solution more likely. Food for thought?

  169. "If I decide to run for office, I'll produce my tax returns, absolutely. And I would love to do that." - Donald Trump, 2014

  170. No one is above the law. Just remember what MLK said..."The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice". In my neighborhood growing up that translated to, 'What goes around comes around'. Thankfully, January 2021 is not that far away.

  171. Unless the Supreme Court is corrupt, Trump should ultimately lose this one. Double jeopardy is a US constitutional protection. However, a federal prosecution, whether successful or not, will not preclude a state prosecution for essentially the same offense. SCOTUS has long recognized the dual sovereign doctrine, when dismissing claims of double jeopardy as a bar to subsequent prosecution in state court or vice versa. Moreover, nothing in the Federal Constitution states a President cannot be prosecuted for a state Crime.

  172. @Ben Unfortunately, the Supreme Court already has two brazen liars, both Republicans. It is corrupt.

  173. @Ben There is nothing that precludes him from being charged in a federal crime either, that is just a DOJ rule that could be changed or completely ignored at any time. This effort to subvert investigation doesn't make him look guilty at all /s

  174. Nixon already tried it. His lawyers argued in the U.S. Supreme Court that a president of the United States is temporarily an absolute monarch. They lost their case. This is just a variation on the same theme.

  175. The McConnell Court won't protect our democracy. The voters must.

  176. I thought we settled this when Nixon was President. I thought that was why he resigned, because he was admitting that he could be criminally investigated and would rather resign than face that criminal conviction. I guess it doesn't surprise me that Trump can't learn from history, but what's the excuse of all these other people?

  177. I do believe the Constitution grants Congress the power to impeach a President for high crimes and misdemeanors. How can there be such a procedure if those possible crimes or misdemeanors haven’t been investigated? The President is claiming that the impeachment process in the Constitution is unconstitutional? Really?

  178. @Dagwood This article did not address impeachment, only what the NY prosecutor is doing. Trump is however fighting Congressional oversight which at this point in time is not an impeachment proceeding. This of course is something the House has been hedging on - how to not commit to an impeachment yet see if they can find a smoking gun. At some point the House will have to commit to an impeachment if they want to get all the records they need. It is a political calculus.

  179. This pure politics by the Republicans despite their claims of being strict constitutionalists. The founders were very wary of executive power and in the original American government power was significantly shifted towards the legislative rather than executive branch. They almost certainly would not have meant to make the presidency an office that was above the rule of law.

  180. There's a consistent asymmetry out there. Our conduct must meet the strictest standards of law, procedure and normative practice. Theirs meets the standards of ticked gorillas trapped in the zoo

  181. Nobody is above the law. Nobody.

  182. I give up. How are you supposed to prove "high crimes and misdemeanors" to impeach a sitting president over if you can't investigate a sitting president? Well, I suppose this corrupt GOP SC will invent a way.

  183. And so Nixon and Watergate and President Bill Clinton's impeachment were, what, merely a game of "Clue"?

  184. No worries Don, President Warren will surely issue a full pardon to you upon your conviction. Or President Biden, Sanders, Harris, etc, etc... Or you could hedge your bet and resign contingent on President Mike pardoning you. He wouldn't make a promise to pardon you and then break it, would he? A fine Christian man wouldn't lie to you, Don; would he?

  185. Since when is any American above the law? Trump is nothing but a tin pot dictator wannabe and the returns should be released. NY has the state ones and it is legal to do so when requested by the Congress, so do it.

  186. It's bad enough that Trump insists he has the power to pardon himself if he is convicted of high crimes and misdemeanors. It's worse that his party insists that the American people, especially law-and-order Republicans, pardoned him automatically by electing him. It's worse still that they use an election that he lost by 3,000,000 actual votes as their exhibit A. They ought to be purging Trumpism, not defending it. When Trump is defeated in 2020, God willing, and this comes around to bite them, they will have lined up the entire Republican Party as seditious nihilists.

  187. If there’s nothing to hide, why hide anything?

  188. The premise that "rich white people cannot possibly commit crimes" both defines and explains the last 40 years of the Republican party.

  189. Trump hires people who coldly insulate him from accountability for his egregiously anti-social behaviors. Trump is using misusing the discretions given Presidents to preserve the separation of powers in order to enjoy impunity from wrongful acts. He is probably the first President who if not in office would be in prison. He really is a low life.

  190. A. He's wrong. B. He'll never give those returns up (not while he President). C. None of this applies if he's not President. D. Vote him out and solve A-C (plus a lot of other problems), and then prosecute.

  191. I'm truly interested. What action by the president would be egregious enough for the DOJ to question it's 'policies'? Hopefully something well short of shooting someone on Fifth Avenue!

  192. Sorry Donald J Trump..... but said protections at the whim of policy in the Justice Department ONLY applies to federal investigations... and even that is in question. This is a legal action by the state of New York... Trumps residence of record.

  193. No one of significance reads our comments. Just an ego thing. America is over.

  194. Mr. Sekulow, I don’t even have the words for you. You purport to be a Christian. Why do you defend this man? If your client didn’t have something to hide, why waste the court’s time with this back and forth? Release Trump’s tax returns. He owes the American public this transparency. But given his past record of dishonesty, I suspect those tax returns will both expose more lies and expose him to more legal consequences.

  195. Repeat after me: No one is above the law.

  196. The audit excuse is over.....hand over the tax returns. Guess it was phony auditing, right? Who else could get away with this?

  197. @MIMA My boyfriend was an auditor. He said that was a dumb excuse. Trump would have to release the returns if he wanted a loan (and he took out many loans). In other words, Trump lied. Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!

  198. By this standard, he could not be investigated even if he did shoot a person in the middle of 5th Avenue. It's truly absurd.

  199. Indeed it causes significant Constitutional issues: it's call 'separation of powers'.

  200. So are they admitting there are criminal acts? What about acts before he became president? Why should America have to tolerate a criminal in the WH if his criminal acts are proven? His term is up in a little over a year. Investigations take time. Investigate now, prosecute later if need be. Indictments can be sealed.

  201. This POTUS - by his election - set some unprecedented precedents, first non politucian who had never run before, multi divorced, a businessman etc. And oh add, all kinds of allegations. Then came Mueller which set some new milestones. And now this. In100 years -there is going to be a whole body of Trump vs. "you name it" Folks, 100 years from now - would only marvel that it's amazing he lasted both terms.

  202. @Neil, he hasn't got the second term yet and with what he's doing to the environment there won't be anybody here 100 years from now.

  203. Okay, so Trump “cannot be subject to criminal process, for conduct of any kind, while he is serving as president.” Any kind? What if he was suspected of being an axe murderer. I guess investigators would let the crimes continue until his term was up.

  204. So if I understand this correctly, the President's lawyers are stating that 'sitting Presidents are immune from criminal prosecution until they leave office.' This is, on it's face, absurd. Taken to the extreme, Trump as President could actually shoot someone on Fifth Ave. and not be charged. He could take bribes openly and not be charged. He could commit tax fraud, brag about it, and not be charged. Really?? Presidents must be held accountable - and the law as it is written is the only power capable of doing that. If a court upholds their argument, there is nothing that will stop any person in the office to do whatever he/she wants. Utter madness.

  205. All the more reason to get to the bottom of concerns about Kavanagh, who has plenty in common with the groper-in-chief! Trump's sister, who officially retired to avoid any further analysis of the family "fortune," is an intuitive indicator of how the Trump gang functions... One could reasonably argue that the Constitutional Oath Trump took for his office would necessarily incline him to follow the Rule of Law in Our Society, though Trump treats his job with about as much respect for these societal norms as Neil Bush respected Savings and Loans! Such attitudes, expressed mainly by the criminal elements of Society, are usually condemned by the Republican party. Oh well...

  206. 12000 + lies. Promises from "Mexico will pay for it" to I'll show them to you if you elect me". ALL lies. That's not presidential and it means he shouldn't have presidential immunity. It mean he should be taken out of office immediately for the damage he's doing to the country. Lies destroy alliances, which destroy trade. Which cost Americans jobs. That's not why he was elected. To lie is to steal, as my grandfather said.