Don’t see how the murderous Communists will ever win the hearts and minds of the Hong Kong people....even if they invade with the military.
To those wanting another aspect of what's happening in Hong Kong, take a look at this, "How to kill Hong Kong Police and what comes next."
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3025224/how-kill-hong-kong-police-and-what-comes-next
2
Mr Kristof appears to have parachuted into HK Island and is now enjoying his love fest with the black shirt protest/rioters. He’s asking his interviewees all kinds of softball questions, that they can easily crush the ball out of the park. Why doesn’t he ask them some hardball questions, instead of trying to make friends with them? And he also should visit visit Kowloon, which is poorer than HK Island, and conduct some interviews with ordinary people. Now that actually would be more informative, than the usual anti-HK govt editorials, that the Times publishes every other day.
2
Xi Jinping's violence against protesters, such as the shooting of a woman in the eye with a police bean bag,
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3024147/woman-who-suffered-severe-eye-injury-during-hong-kong , is part and parcel of the rulers' modus operandi.
They have a well-documented history of violence against protesters. E.g., the Kent State and Jackson State massacres.
Amid the 1970 Chicano Moratorium march against the war (Vietnam Holocaust) the government killed Gustav Montag and journalist Ruben Zalazar.
Here is an article about violence by the French government blinding protesters. https://www.politico.eu/article/yellow-jackets-blinded-police-weapons-france-protests/
Here is a story about the Venezuelan government violence. https://www.nytimes.com/es/2019/07/07/venezuela-informe-bachelet/
Here is a story about the violence of the Israeli government. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47399541
The top government officials, such as Macron, Maduro or Natanyahu, have not received the penalties they deserve due to the rule of law. What are the chances for Xi?
Government violence against protesters is dwarfed by its violence against innocent people during its various wars.
Interestingly, Nicholas Kristof, who usually takes a very humanist perspective, fails to call on government to renounce violence and to disarm.
4
If you wonder and worry about the future of Hong Kong, take a look at what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea.
International law? Who cares. Public opinion? Who cares. Other nations' sovereignty? Who cares?
Hong Kong? Who cares.
3
Taiwan, are you watching and learning? There but for the grace of God...
1
Fighting for democracy and freedom?
What a hypocrisy!
These HKers are actually fighting for the freedom of extradition or facing justice if they commit any felony in other countries.
The law these protesters object, was first proposed because a young HK boy killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan (not in China!) and fled back to HK. The HK government needs a law to deal with this situation since there has long been no extradition treaty between HK and Taiwan/Macau/China/or most countries in the world. The law clearly stats that people will not be extradited for any potential political/religious reason, and extradition only works when BOTH the HK justice system and HK government agree the extradition. (See a BBC analysis: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-47810723)
But these protesters simplify this into a fight against China government and a fight of democracy and freedom. Well, if they really care about this, why not fight before 1997?
Now the HK boy must feel he is the luckiest guy in the world since so many people willing to stand by his side and throw Molotov cocktail toward their own police officers. He is only staying in jail for 9 months because of credit card fraud, not because of his murder of two lives including his own son.
Welcome to HK! New paradise for young criminals, a place no need to worry about punishment if you commit any crime abroad.
Who really care about the two miserable souls in the mud in a Taiwan river?
4
The young in Hong Kong are not waiting for George Orwell to be right “... If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever.”
– George Orwell, 1984
Bravery in the face of evil should receive the support of all who believe in freedom
1
In 1997 I was working in Hong Kong and Wuhan and I watched the handover close up, never believing for a minute that China would honor the “one country two systems” line. The people of Hong Kong know what they stand to lose if they don’t resist being sucked into the tyrannical maw of Beijing. I stand in awe of their courage, especially since my own country’s democracy is in such peril at this time.
2
While I can sympathise and understand the cause of the HK protestors..
...some of the leaders, Joshua Wong, in particular are..
..evangelical style born-again Christians.
Watch the documentary about him on Netflix.
While indeed, we will all die one day........and evangelical religious theology is not a crime, the mindset it fosters causes people to do things and take risks that are extreme.
I know, I have family members.
So while I can sympathise wth the HK cause, be REALLY CAREFUL about the mindset of these leaders. They are kamikaze.
Any normal, red-blooded American president, like Lincoln, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Reagan, would instinctually know to support those who want freedom over an authoritarian, anti-democracy regime like China.
They would have it in their gut, their soul.
Trump?
A self-dealing, hollow, pretend American who's gut says "what's in it for me?"
Or more accurately,"what's my tee time?"
In the time of our Revolution he would have sided with the British.
The Civil War? Count him among the slave states. Especially if they booked rooms at his hotel.
World War 2?
He'd be meeting in private with the leader of Germany (that guy with the mustache) and telling us he had no reason to doubt his claims not to have blood on his hands.
"He was very strong in his denial!"
An American like me, like you if you're still normal, supports the residents of Hong Kong. The entire free world does.
Are you still normal?
2
"We should be alert not only for troops pouring across the border, but also for thugs with cleavers."
Personally, I would rather be holding an AK-47 than a tennis racket if I had to face a cleaver-wielding thug or the PLA. Hong Kong has a long history of smuggling, and it would take very little effort for the people of Hong Kong to arm themselves. Then, the people of Hong Kong would not be frogs in boiling water, the PLA would be ants on a burning log.
A venerable sport! About fifty years ago some of UW-Madison's finer athletes, school team members among them, used to compete at passing unexploded tear gas granades into the open windows of nearby police cars.
Still, didn't ultimately do a lot of good.
1
If Xi can't come up with a good reason to deprive Hong Kong of democratic rights, then he should keep his hands off Hong Kong. So far he's shown himself to be a suppress-the-truth thug.
Asian-American intersectional activists should be leading the charge on this. Strangely subdued.
Have not seen any Chinese American large scale protests in support of those in Hong Kong. Just amazing how selfish certain groups are. Get out there and protest for those in Hong Kong if you are Chinese American.
1
Didn't we fight a war in Vietnam to stop communism and its evil spread? Now, as a country,we don't even care enough to understand what's happening and Hong Kong? Baby boomers, make up your minds.
Government has a documented history of violence against protesters. For example, the Kent State and Jackson State massacres.
Amid the 1970 Chicano Moratorium march against the war (Vietnam Holocaust) the government killed Gustav Montag and journalist Ruben Zalazar.
Here is an article about violence by the French government blinding protesters. https://www.politico.eu/article/yellow-jackets-blinded-police-weapons-france-protests/
Here is a story about the Venezuelan government violence. https://www.nytimes.com/es/2019/07/07/venezuela-informe-bachelet/
Here is a story about the violence of the Israeli government. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47399541
The top government officials, such as Macron, Maduro or Natanyahu, have not received the penalties they deserve due to the rule of law.
Government violence against protesters is trivial compared to its violence against innocent people during its myriad wars.
Interestingly, Nicholas Kristof, usually taking a humanist perspective, doesn't call on government to renounce violence, nor to disarm.
2
The next time large protests sweep New York I hope you're as understanding and sympathetic. Police in the US treat protestors in the same manner that Hong Kong police do. Would NY allow La Guardia or Kennedy to be virtually shut down. I wonder when a small number of Black Block protestors smash windows and fight with the police if you'll be so mild in your criticism?
3
The people of Hong Kong have a clear cut perspective.
They can see what governance on the mainland has become since they beat even Russia in silent suppression.
They have seen the "Chinese treatment" of Tibetans and Uighurs.
Hong Kong had always known 'freedom' even during British colonial times. Hong Kong natives were never submissive or subservient to Brits ever.
This phrase is the undistilled truth:
“If we die, well, we were going to die anyway.”
If the curtailing of civil liberties and freedom of speech doesn't happen now, it is coming... one way or another.
Or by some miracle, China would have an epiphany and use Taiwan and Hong Kong as a model and undo the yoke of this monstrous child of communist-capitalism marriage from Hades.
I see people in Hong Kong going through protest after protests...
I see people in Kashmir (whose culture, language and people I'm well familiar with) stifled and subjugated in their own homes...
I see climate change and ensuing poverty causing immigration havoc on our borders...
And, I see NO statesmanship, no leadership, no stalwart banner of right and good rising from EU, no moral affront were voiced from a West which used to be so vociferous on issues of human rights.
All I hear is the silence of the crickets in Halls of Powers.
This grieves me to no end.
There is documentation of the plagues which came to Egypt in the Old Testament, the Torah, and the Quran...
There is a 'Plague' in our WH as well.
4
For many mainlanders, this movement is less about democracy but more about superiority of one group over the other feeling loss of their special place, except that the repressed feel so much better than the repressing one...it is internalized colonianism making its own ugly face in very unexpected way. I don't see why white people can't see that at all..this is quite synchronized with the rising anti-immigration tide everywhere.
1
"Many Americans don’t even bother to vote" Statist is gonna state.
The irony is that these protesters enjoy a higher degree of freedom than the nations they idolize. Shut down airports and break into Congress to vandalize the legislature and you would tossed into prison for a long time. Throw a firebomb at a police officer in the United States and you would be shot dead. Kudos to the Hong Kong government for being more humane.
3
I do not understand the labeling of HK protesters as violent or rioters. For two mouths, not a single store is looted, no window broken, no car set on fire. No rape more pillage. Rather, the police unleashed disproportionate force, used triad gangters to attack innocent protesters. In any case, I am not at all surprised since what do you expect when you forced reunifying a civilized city populace to an uncivilized authoritarian state.
5
I fully support Hong kongers against the tyranny of the ccp.they are evil incarnate, with Xi as an unhappy puppet,the strings are being pulled by evil immoral leaders with huge illegal assets outside China, second and third wivew and families also outside China stripping assets from private and state companies, to ensure their families keep on top of other elites by virtue of higher value assets, who change their blood frequently and organs to stay young ,taken from political prisoners and who have no interest in allowing HK any freedom, having visited a Chinese political prison first hand 20 years ago and also seen how the elite leaders lived inside the White House Beijing their real intentions are incredibly well covered but visible if you understand their dialogue and structure.beware the world !China is not an enemy, the ccp is ,and we should be working together to eradicate this malodrious enemy
2
The color of the 'color revolutions' has been blood red. Even those that by popular media narrative were successes, Georgia, Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan, merely generated local despots (https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/03/18/why-the-color-revolutions-failed/). Egypt's 'Arab Spring' was celebrated on these pages in much the same way that HK is now covered. El-Sissi must chuckle now reading western news sources opining about democratic elections.
It would seem that responsible journalists would urge caution to brash young men who risk their lives for the siren-song of Freedom and Democracy. Journalists need not provide background music for the sirens prior to the crash of timber on reef.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/world/asia/hong-kong-protests-identity-china-edward-leung.html
"A group called Hong Kong Indigenous, in which Mr. Leung was a leading activist, began harassing mainland shoppers in what it called “retake” actions. Hong Kong’s colonial-era flag became a banner of resistance in what at times became an ugly xenophobic campaign against mainlanders, with some Hong Kongers dehumanizing them as “locusts.” "
And there you have it. The truth of what these protesters really are and what they are about. Hong Kong's answer to Trump supporters.
In the 80s and 90s, Hong Kong was the most prosperous Chinese city and served as China’s window to the outside world. Now it has lost that special status and its GDP has fallen behind neighboring Shenzhen, a former fish village and other major Chinese cities on the mainland. For the longest time Hong Kongers looked down on their mainland cousins as country bumpkins, but as their fortunes stagnated and the mainlanders became the new Beverly Hillbillies they became resentful. Like besieged Trump supporters they fall back on their identity as a source of superiority. For Hong Kongers it’s their British colonial identity. Make Hong Kong great again?
2
If the protesters had been in the US and done what these have done, many would be dead.
OTOH if the U S government had done what the Chinese have, I'd support Molotov cocktail throwers here.
1
HK protesters is engaged in a collective suicide. Wonderful! Kristof is misinformed. China will send in the PLA to restore order and sovereignty, and lock up all separatists!!!
10 teens shot at high school football game in Alabama.
Democracy is great????
Ga yao, Nicholas Kristof. Ga yao, Hong Kong.
1
The UN Security Council may be powerlessness,but many nations can make their voices heard in protest.
Hong Kong has found use for tines that deserves prime time
.I wish the US would use a golf club instead of AK5s.
1
The Chinese are terribly worried about the 70th anniversary coming up on 1 Oct. they must show a calm and unified country including HK. How’s that going to happen?
My Chinese teacher feeds me Chinese propaganda each week even though we don’t live in China and she has long since left China. once brainwashed always... She believes 100% that the Americans are behind the HK protests. There’s no doubt in her mind.i asked her this week if she thinks China will invade soon. She squirmed. Invade? It’s our country she said.
4
The Chinese are terribly worried about the 70th anniversary coming up on 1 Oct. they must show a calm and unified country including HK. How’s that going to happen?
My Chinese teacher feeds me Chinese propaganda each week even though we don’t live in China and she has long since left China. once brainwashed always... She believes 100% that the Americans are behind the HK protests. There’s no doubt in her mind.i asked her this week if she thinks China will invade soon. She squirmed. Invade? It’s our country she said.
There are clear definitions for riot and terrorist. These definitions and understandings apply even if you put those words in quotes; even when rioters and terrorists pick up their own trash in the aftermath.
Oh sweet American democracy! If only we had some! Trump is President. Have you forgotten? Imagine if American demonstrators in Ferguson, MO had charged police lines, thrown Molotov cocktails… You think there would be one black eye? One shot fired into the air?
Demonstrations by Palestinians against Israeli occupation are normally confronted by lethal force, rubber bullets and the like...so I am extremely surprised at the restraint shown by the Hong Kong authorities and its police in their ongoing responses to the demonstrators and protesters, and to the destruction of public spaces.
1
The people of Hong Kong are reminding us that it takes a lot more courage to stand up to a bully than to be a bully.
2
Don't miss Karen Cheung's article that accompanies Nick's.
1
Nice return of serve.
2
What CCP fails to realize is its own utter lack of attraction, given options young people in HK (and Taiwan) have experienced, know well. Many in HK are too familiar with the true nature of PRC to feel "patriotic", aware of the vehement opposition of the Chinese leadership to the UK's plans to institute a modicum of democratic reform in colonial HK in the 1960s.
The Basic Law (an international agreement signed on to by both PRC and UK) guarantees a roadmap to local democracy before the end of "one-country, two-systems" in 2047. In the interim, action on the roadmap has been utterly stymied by the HK government in its subservience to CCP. This is what many locals are upset about, the jump-the-gun methods by which CCP has attempted to take over, years ahead of schedule.
Hong Kongers struggle for their own futures, a future not determined by Xi and his CCP. A signatory to the Basic Law, PRC is daily looking to many more and more like “definitely not the way to go”.
It is to China's shame that it cannot countenance self-determination for people who are ethnically Han, speak some form of Chinese, and live on its periphery. It is as if Anglo-Celts in London declared that all European Anglo-Celts must "live under one roof" -- Ireland “repatriated”, Scotland forbidden to leave the UK, Brittany invaded (Breton a Celtic language).
Is it any wonder that so many in HK despair of a ‘homeland’ 祖國 which signs, then utterly trashes, an international agreement on their own, local future?
2
The protesters are killing any chance of success in their concerns and demands by resorting to violence in the protesting.
I applaud their passion, but their methods and fatalistic outlook in going violent in the protesting will be their doom.
2
Without American moral leadership, the status of this free city looks imperiled.
1
Are those people vandalising the MTR (subway and metro) and physically attacking bystanders who disavow their violence really democracy fighters?
Or are they gangsters abusing the democracy ideal?
If Chinese paramilitary moves in (which looks increasingly likely ), it is to restore law and order in Hong Kong, not , as the writer claims, to crush the democracy movement.
The Hong Kong Police is too civilized (to avoid bloodshed) and has not been effective so far in crushing the riots at its roots.
I support peaceful assembly and individual freedom-but not at the expense of depriving the freedoms of other citizens, especially employing physical violences.
By the way, the August 31 march was an illegal assembly, not to mention the subsequent riots, throwing of gasoline bombs all over Hong Kong and MTR station vandalising.
Did the writer fail to notice all those uncivilized acts of the so called democracy seekers?
If the Chicago Police took actions against such riots, should he world condemn such action as crushing Democracy ?
1
The Hong Kong protesters call themselves pro-democratic, but their behavior is completely the opposite — gang attacking bystanders who do not agree with them; attacking policemen brutally with poisonous liquids, bombshells, etc. And they are getting worse each day with the Western news media trying to egg them on. Stop pretending that America's support for these protests is about anything other than inciting unrest in a political adversary.
4
What is China?
It’s not a democracy — Xi Jinping isPresident for life.
How are China’s city and regional governments run?
Not by elections.
But China has many billionaires and millionaires too.
How do they make their profits?
Chinese products are cheap because worker conditions are bad.
Is there a minimum wage? Is it a wage that means more than subsistence?
Are there any regulations in China to control pollution or prevent faulty construction, dangerous products?
Who is in control? How do they get their money?
China is corrupt at its core.
There are just a few tyrants in charge, and they take everything.
Everything is based on bribery.
The Chinese economy is fake.
China is evil.
Don’t just tariff China — boycott China.
1
The protestor in the photo with the tennis racket has the right idea.
I hope he lives to talk about it well it worked.
The Chinese government does not smile on people who make them look bad in the international media.
1
If ever hopes and prayers were needed it is for Hong Kong.
1
The Western media has such a bias when reporting on the protests, finding any way to justify the actions of the radical protesters. If these protesters were to "Play Tennis" with tear gas in the United States,UK, or China, week after week, for 3 months, you can be sure the police would have cracked down on it long ago. The fact, the media condones and encourages the actions of the radical protesters detracts from the legitimate concerns of the moderates in the movement.
2
"Many Americans don’t even bother to vote, while Hong Kongers shame us by enduring tear gas and threats of job dismissals in hopes of attaining what we take for granted."
--YES, THIS. As an American in HK, I am so moved by the involvement of the Hong Kong people. They understand what they are fighting for. Americans, meanwhile, are obsessed with reality TV, can't pass a background check bill, slaughter each other every few days, don't have a proper health care system, are overweight and uneducated, and don't vote. Hong Kong people deserve more than what they're getting, and Americans are living on borrowed time and privilege.
1
Expecting a principled, sensible response from Trump is like expecting a roomful of typing chimps to produce Shakespeare. It theoretically could happen, but we all know it won’t.
Please! someone who knows how to do this start a pledge on social media: "if the repression continues, if China crushes democracy, I will boycott all Chinese goods, period!
1
I suspect we'll see People's Armed Police on the streets by Tuesday morning. If the protesters have taken to using Petrol Bombs which has been reported by Reuters. China now has the excuse to send in the troops and they likely will. Even if they don't drown the streets in blood. (and I think that's even money.) A whole bunch of activists are about to find out how long the arm of state really is. Anyone who is a student in higher education will likely kiss that good bye. As well as anyone with a job anymore responsible then garbage collector. The state can make the pressure on their employers unbearable. And over the next few months look for the leadership to either disappear or be sentenced to to "Reeducation" for "Unrelated offenses" if their lucky (And I doubt they will be) they won't be used for spare parts. The PRC is very unforgiving & likely their files are marked, the State will catch up.
For all those calling for the US to do something, There isn't a thing the US can do except make speeches. Which the PRC will ignore. They view it has an internal matter and US interference will just make them dig in their heels. The demonstrators overplayed their hand and are now fighting a battle lost before it began. For those planning to point out Gandhi to me. A simple question how far would Gandhi have gotten if the Germans of the 30's or 40's had been running India? Demonstrations only work on people NOT willing to wade knee deep in blood. I live it to you which the PRC is?
"… Trump and other world leaders should make clearer that Xi will pay a severe price if he uses force — whether by troops or by triads — to try to crush Hong Kong. Granted this must be done delicately, …"
Has Trump ever done anything delicately, or ever sided with people against a dictator.
Carrie is the Lamb to Beijing's wolves. She needs to be removed from government.
1
From the picture, his forehand finish / follow through is pretty good. He must be a real tennis player.
Trump called the protesters "rioters."
Trump has taken the side of China, a totalitarian capitalist country where protesters pretend to "mill about" without ever acknowledging that they know each other or are protesting, because otherwise they get sent to re-education camps.
Trump congratulated Xi for making himself "president for life," then equated that to "king."
Trump is not on the side of democracy. Trump is on the side of "unfettered capitalism" which means keeping democracy out of the way of global corporations.
Regulations are how markets are made fair. Regulations mean that when a company sells you a foot of fabric, the foot is just as long as when they bought the foot of fabric.
Calling the government the "enemy" and trying to cut taxes so low that you can "drown it in a bathtub," while creating a "unitary executive" that claims it can ignore the law, the courts, and Congress, is not the work of "reasonable people with whom we happen to disagree," but the work of opponents of democracy trying to shred the Constitution.
Compromise with those that plainly oppose the Constitution is not wise. Its treason.
If you don't want to get sent to re-education camps to learn how to say "thank you President Trump," like you mean it, get out on the street and PEACEFULLY protest for the Constitution before it is too late.
Hong Kong protesters know what is at stake. Do you?
Choose a side.
2
“And if Xi can’t manage to keep Hong Kong content, how can he dream of unifying with Taiwan?”
He can’t dream of unifying with Taiwan in any case
1
If we had a REAL president he/she would be voicing their outrage now loudly and clearly.
1
Wait, I thought the most important thing facing Chinese was their underepresentation in Hollywood films and television. Where are the expressions of solidarity of Chinese Americans, who tout their cultural strengths and "suffering" in the United States?
1
You got to hand it to the Hong Kong police. They’re probably the most patient police force on the planet. For months now, they’ve allowed these kids to run wild in the streets setting up road blocks, trash the legislative building, break windows at police stations, spray graffiti, stop subway trains and occupy the airport in addition to throwing bricks and gas bombs with few arrests. If this sort of thing happened in the U.S. or Israel, these kids would have been arrested by the bus load or shot dead. The rioting would have ended within a week. Sorry folks. They’re not in the same league as Gandhi or Dr. King. Freedom fighters don’t believe like this and they don’t wear masks. Only terrorists do. Now the glove finally comes off and the fun and games are over.
2
I remember participating in demonstrations against NAFTA and the WTO in the 90’s. Most of the demonstrators were like me, peaceful citizens who believed it was their right and their duty to express themselves against the further corporatization of the economy.
At every such demo, there was a group who were purportedly anarchists called the Black Bloc, who’s purpose was essentially to foment violence. It was revealed in Quebec City that some at least some of the members of the Black Bloc were police agents sent to give the police an excuse to crack down. I wouldn’t be surprised that the same happens in Hong King.
1
Is the fight really about freedom? HK has been usurped by the super rich for years (of course they are deeply tied to the Chinese government and rewarded accordingly). Young people in HK care about democracy and independence, but not that much. HK has long been about business and people were not known to be political. But in the last decades, young people see fewer and fewer opportunities, while everything got so expensive and they cannot afford anything. The protest has more to do with the frustration and anger that is similar to occupy wall street.
Most Chinese government officials are not as stupid as Mr. Kristof suggest: they know exactly what's going on, but they have to play this conspiracy and nationalism card to placate the domestic population. They are probably no more more sinister or shameless than Mitch McConnell. The Chinese propaganda is definitely working, as most Chinese I talked to actually think the protest in HK is terrorism. It makes you wonder why Chinese want to unify HK/TW when they don't like HK/TW people.
We could use some of that Hong Kong resilience and tenacity here in the US. Especially among the US youth.
We are the frog in the boiling, water...and instead of trying to get out, far too many want to drag outsiders in with them!
The US citizenry could use a little of the Hong Kong spirit. We could use an awakening from our complacency that we can wait things out, that there will be another Hero, another messiah, another generator of change...to save us from this deplorable president and his gross minions, and the Corp-Over-Lords, and free-marketeers who want and demand silence...who keep feeding us filth, promoting more leisure time activities, and mind/body-altering consumables to keep us distracted and over dosed on feeding our vices.
Yeah, we could use some of that Hong Kong spirit. Cause Americans are not living up to our founding legacy. We've allowed the Over-Lords to trick us that protesting is Anti-American, and a threat to our apathetic, leisure base life-styles.
Besides who wants to protest unless there's a guaranteed super Selfie to get out of it..."with all that smoke and those masks...who will know I attended?"
1
Calling individuals fighting for freedom as engaging in riots is further evidence of the true nature of this President. He is an autocrat and unfit for the Presidency.
As reported here and other news outlets this afternoon:
Rampaging protesters reduced Hong Kong’s streets to charred battlefields on Saturday, setting off multiple fires and hurling petrol bombs at riot police who fought back by firing rounds of blue dye from water cannons and tear gas, as the city marked yet another weekend of heightened violence.
Police fired two live rounds into the air to fight off a violent mob near Victoria Park in Causeway Bay, sources told the Post, as word spread of undercover officers mingling with the demonstrators.
------------
The method of protest here will not end well for protesters. They are wearing hard hats or helmets, and are wearing gas masks... making them essentially immune to normal police counter-protest tactics. As such.. they are inviting an escalation by police.. that ultimately is going to result in some deaths if this keeps up.
Sorry.. but throwing fire bombs at police IS NOT going to end well.
Cathay Pacific Airlines has officially started investigating the sabotage of leaking oxygen tanks during several flights in recent days. This has become a terrorism affecting all the safety of passengers. We cannot tolerate some radical actions from these protesters. Regarding these protests, I hope NY Times can further report on Cathay Pacific incidence.
"The outcome may depend partly on whether we stand with them." Please. You must be kidding. Hong Kong has always been a great city that's governed by rule of law, until these young thugs come along. The U.S. will not enhance this so called democratic movement. Democracy comes from within. Hong Kong is part of China. These rioters are essentially separatists. If they commit the same crime in the U.S. they'll be locked up in no time. You never see any police in the world who are so timid, to the point they almost act like they haven't done their job. Let's be honest, do you think the cops in the U.S. would allow any attacker to get this close without firing their weapons? These rioters should be thankful that they're still alive.
Its interesting that the American public seems to have forgotten the huge endless demos by students over the war in vietnam...How many were shot dead by the police then?...At least a dozen....how many black men women and even children are casually shot dead every week today bythe American police...how many were people seriously injured in France recently in the recent and continuing riots against Macrons policies...and I read the the leader of these recent riots in HK was arrested and given TWO MONTHS in prison! In Britain he would have been given three years!
The article by Kristoff is a veneer covering a drooling excitement that the military will be sent in there will be huge bloodshed etc etc......All that is nonsense. These demonstrators are students,on holiday,they have no responsibilities. ,no bank loans mortgages,wives,children...I a week or two the students will return to their studies still naturally wearing their spectacles that flaunt their superiority...
In fact they have behaved disgracefully in trashing a beautiful airport and wrecking HKs image....In ten years HK will be even richer,China will be the undisputed worlds biggest economy and beginning to move to a fully automated society where no one works..
Shedding crocodile tears over HKs present problems is a waste of time...
HK protesters & rioters are declaring war on "law and order." They ignored HK government's rejection on their protest requests and still went on with it. They broke the law. Their actions will never be allowed in the US. Their outrageous behavior attacking police and destroying public facilities deserves severe punishment. In here, if they don't listen and follow the police order, they will be shot in order to stop their actions. I don't know why HK government tolerate their actions using only very gentle and tender counter attacks. Those law-breaking HK rioters will be destined sent to prison for sure. On the latest SCMP news, some of them even damaged and leaked out oxygen tanks in Cathay Pacific flights raising fly safety issues. This is terrorism and put every passengers in danger.
Wow! They are hitting back tear gas canisters with their tennis rackets! Always thought the athletic sport of tennis was for warriors! Maybe now, the powers that be will stop equating tennis with golf, which has always been a thwart to the development of Tennis!
1
Chinese riot troops are stationed just across the border.
If Chairman Xi orders them to end these protests....it will be the end of Hong Kong as we've known it.
There will be no more waiting until 2047 to take over.
The rest of the world will complain....but will not lift a finger.
Or am I missing something here?
1
The author had me until this sentence, "Many Americans don’t even bother to vote, while Hong Kongers shame us by enduring tear gas and threats of job dismissals in hopes of attaining what we take for granted."
Why does a populist movement in HK bring shame to US citizens? Is that really how the author seeks to get support? When the author talks about not voting - does she include African Americans and people for whom English is a second language who are often prevented from voting? Does the author not acknowledge the corruption of many politicians that leads many US voters to stop participating in our democracy? Does the author not realize that for many US citizens this is not really a democracy - the poor, women, non-Caucasians, naturalized citizens? Oh, I get it, all "Americans" are...???
“Nonviolence is a weapon of the strong.”
Mahatma Gandhi
(Oct 2, 1869 – Jan, 30, 1948) was an Indian lawyer, anti-colonial nationalist, and political ethicist, who employed nonviolent resistance to lead the successful campaign for India's independence from British Rule, and in turn inspire movements for civil rights and freedom across the world. (Source: Wikipedia)
"We'll see what happens."
--- Donald Trump
He relies on it everywhere else, why not here?
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I feel the same way about this issue as I do regarding those who encourage young people in Tibet to take on the PLA there. As with Tibet, the central government of China will stop at nothing to control Hong Kong. It is an easy exercise to fill Hong Kong's boulevards with heavy equipment, armed and propagandized troops, and the skies with fighters, armed drones, and helicopters. Such equipment is standing by now, visible to anyone with open eyes, just outside the Hong Kong border. Those who encourage Chinese young people to stand up to the Chinese Army are sending them to their deaths or long terms in prison. There is no outside power willing to support the young people's efforts. When it starts, they will be chewed up.
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The people of Hong Kong tasted democracy under 100-years of British control and governance. Democracy is a sweet and sour dish, but that's what makes it interesting to the 'huddled masses'. As Boris Johnson and the British Parliament is about to discover anew, woe the governing when the governed see it being taken away. Democracy to be saved sometimes needs to be reinforced in the street. Such reinforcement ended our Vietnam vanity war and has forced the question of equal rights for all of us to be finally owned up to. Street reinforcement can be hard, e.g. DuPont Circle riots, the cracked protestors' heads by the Chicago Police riot during the 1968 Democratic convention, not to forget the four dead Kent State students murdered by the Ohio Nation Guardsmen. The bottom line, the ultimate defense of Democracy is in the streets. Either rise up to defend it or see it go away. Your choice. Hong Kong's protestors have made their choice.
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The CCP fails to realize its own utter lack of appeal, given the options people in HK (and Taiwan) have experienced, know well. Many in HK are too familiar with the nature of PRC to feel "patriotic", are aware of the vehement opposition of the Chinese leadership to the UK's plans to institute a modicum of democratic reform in colonial HK (1960s, 80s).
The Basic Law (an international agreement signed on to by both PRC and UK in 1990) guarantees a roadmap to local democracy before the end of "one-country, two-systems" in 2047. In the interim, progress has been utterly stymied by the HK government in its subservience to CCP. This is what many locals are upset about, the jump-the-gun methods by which CCP has attempted to assert dominance, years ahead of schedule.
The inhabitants of Hong Kong struggle for their own future, the future of their children, a future not determined by the CCP. A signatory to the Basic Law, PRC is daily looking to many more and more like “not the way to go”.
It is curious that China cannot accept self-determination for those who are ethnically Han, speak some form of Chinese, and live on its periphery. It is as if Anglo-Celts in London declared that all European Anglo-Celts must "live under one roof" -- Ireland “repatriated”, Scotland forbidden to leave the UK, Brittany invaded (Breton a Celtic language).
Is it any wonder that many in HK despair of a ‘homeland’ 祖國 that signs, then utterly trashes, an international agreement on their very own future?
Xi's movement away from the collegiate system of rotating power devised by the great Deng Xiaoping is a mistake. Repression of the Hong Kong activists would be a historic disaster. The political evolution of the People's Republic of China will require their perspective. Obviously, we must make clear that the activists cannot count on us to save them, but quietly and respectfully remind the leadership of China that repression of Hong Kong is unacceptable. The protestors need reasonable demands and a willingness to compromise.
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It may be a world away, but it's a lesson in what Donald Trump is doing here as he also supports Chinese President Xi Jinping in stifling democracy in Hong Kong. As Trump continues to undermine the F.B.I.with his attacks on its former Director James Comey and his Deputy Andrew McCabe and make it subservient to the "rule of Trump" rather than the "rule of law," we see the autocratic noose tightening around our Constitution. With a complacent Congress with Republicans all-in with Trump and Nancy Pelosi more worried about losing her majority in Trump districts than in defending the Constitution, will we be willing to take to the streets to save our democracy as the young people of Hong Kong are doing? Don't be complacent and put your faith in your vote in November 2020. With the doors open to Russian malfeasance with voting machine easily hacked and Republicans using Voter ID laws, purges of the voter roles, gerrymandering and other tricks, the election may be rigged. Or, if the polls indicate a massive Trump defeat look for him to yell, as he did in 2016, "The election is rigged!" and move to halt it. This is no time for complacency. Our very democracy is under siege by the emboldened Trump autocracy. Hong Kong is our lesson and we have little time left to learn from it.
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@Paul Wortman:"Hong Kong is our lesson and we have little time left to learn from it."
California is given back to Mexico?
There has been a lot of coverage about the opposing sides but the ones in the middle - you know, the small shops and eateries - never got a mention. But these folks are like the innocents caught between the tribal wars in the Middle East like Syria, they are the ones suffering the most.
Both the pro and anti government groups have the supporters and detractors, with the major outlets definitely siding with the anti groups. However, this response is neither pro or anti but this middle groups. Small eateries, like the rest of the world, are operating with the thinest margin augmented by sweat equities, ma, pa and very often children work the shop to make ends meet. Caught in the mayhems between the opposing groups, for several months now, you have to wonder how many will be going under. Who is going to speak for them?
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I stand with Hong Kong resistors. They sacrifice and risk for freedom while democratic countries around the world, including the US and the UK, toss their institutions and laws away. Shame on Trump for calling these protests "riots". They have more dignity than we have.
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@Mary: no, no, no. This is no longer a simple situation of peaceful protest, which is already permitted under our laws, which include free speech, freedom of assembly, rule of law.
These hardcore protesters have become radicalised. They are criminally attacking people. They are throwing Molotov cocktails and causing burns to police. The videos are here on NYT. An off-duty policeman has been attacked by black-shirts and stabbed to the bone (also reported here). These young people are assaulting members of the public who resist them in their illegal acts. They do not speak for Hong Kong, despite the way that this paper tries to legitimise them. These young people are becoming like the Baader Meinhof Gang.
@Mary O’Connell: even a stopped yellow clock is right twice a day - yes, technically these are indeed riots, and increasingly the hardcore protesters are violent and are doing criminal damage to Hong Kong. They have already done US$5million damage to our legislative council (including urinating!) and are now vandalising our public transport system (which is a listed private company). Protesters at the airport injured a journalist that they detained and assaulted. Some protesters have attacked and severely wounded an off-duty policeman by stabbing him to the bone. Over a hundred policemen are recovering from injuries caused by protesters.
You are confusing the masked criminals with the peaceful marchers. Peaceful discussion would be good, but the violence has to stop first.
“If we die, well, we were going to die anyway.” This is a fundamental and horrifying lie. They are using this to justify illegal and violent acts. I fear that some poor Hong Konger who happens to be a policeman is going to be killed by one of these paranoid nihilists. The policeman’s children are going to grow up without a parent. Already children of police are being picked on in schools. An off-duty policeman has been stabbed to the bone by black-shirted assailants.
Kristof - why are you promoting this? I live here and there has been so much fear from these protesters that is unrelated to reality. This is post-truth propaganda.
The hardcore protesters are talking about following a “scorched earth approach”. I have lived in London and San Francisco, and I can tell you that I am as free here as I was there, and used to be a lot safer.
To all on here stating or speculating that the violent protestors are not real and are just paid by China to give it an excuse to crack down, etc. please provide links to reliable news sources on this. A lot of these comments just sound like speculation, I would like to see a real article on this.
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May these brave people prevail. Amazingly, Americans are complacent about what is happening to our own "democracy;" where we have a tyrant as a President and a Congress that is incapable of protecting our own citizens.
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@Gary
We are seeing a preview of America, if the king here should the election!
NPR reported that many of these young protestors are indeed ready to die. They've made their wills. I have so much admiration. I truly wish our leadership at this time were able to support them, and to inspire them a tenth as much as they are inspirng others.
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"It is at risk from Chinese encroachment and the slow erosion of the rule of law,"
Chinese encroachment? It's already part of China.
What's happening in Hong Kong is a natural outcome of events that began when Hong Kong was returned to China.
We've accepted doing business with China while NYT OP-ED writers have celebrated the global economy for which China is a linchpin. We've done this while China has been taking actions against its citizens that were more severe than those we are observing in Hong Kong.
You prefer a WALL between mainland China and Hong Kong?
Stop with the "Oh the humanity!" over Hong Kong.
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@Jp
The simple fact of the matter is, young people as well as many older, in HK and Taiwan, see beyond what PRC offers them. They are the ones demonstrating for a humane future -- their own.
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@An American in Sydney: "see beyond what PRC offers them. They are the ones demonstrating for a humane future -- their own."
Hong Kong celebrated, with fireworks, when it was returned to China. Anyone who looked soberly at China knew what the future held.
The world does business with China while China has done and is doing far worse to some of its citizens than the actions we see in Hong Kong. This has not stopped many from calling for agreements like the TPP.
Taiwan? Sorry that ship has also long since sailed. At one time in my life I would have taken an active role in trying to push back communist dictatorships such as the PRC. My progressive and forward thinking friends told me that was interfering in the internal affairs of China.
No one should have expected anything other than Bejing exercising it soverein rights over Hong Kong.
@AnAmericanInSydney: more spin from someone outside HK. These protests are completely disproportionate and counterproductive. And now they are increasingly criminal - some have tried to kill an off-duty policeman. Some have claimed that they want to bring down Hong Kong using a scorched earth policy. Why?
I assure you - this is a great way to estrange the people of Hong Kong. We want the city to get back to normal, which was actually pretty good. Let’s work together to fix what doesn’t work instead of this wicked violence and destruction.
Hong Kong's tempest and fury seems to be unleashed by primarily the young and educated furious over not rice but rights. The Brits came in, the Brits left and the reality of Communist China and Xi is the flexing of imperial might, Chinese rather than British. Their neighbor North Korea stands at the ready to cause more trouble. Don't forget India, Kasmir and Pakistan, and for that matter, Afghanistan and Iraq. Much restlessness in the vacuum created by Trump's lack of diplomatic and negotiating skill set and our departments of state and overall policy in the Oval Office. These international troubles reflect the neglect of climate change added to the above. None of this is accidental but a result of neglect and obtuse misunderstanding.
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@Katalina:"Much restlessness in the vacuum created by Trump's lack of diplomatic and negotiating skill set and our departments of state and overall policy in the Oval Office."
Please. Hate Trump all you want but China has shown time and time again that when it comes to its internal affairs, it will tolerate no one even giving the appearance of preaching to it.
For the past two decades, we've been reading about growing numbers of young Hongkongers looking to emigrate as they saw no economic future in Hong Kong. They pointed to the near impossibility of owning homes, securing professional jobs, and the growing gap between the very wealthy and the very poor. More than anything else, I'm shocked at the number of young protestors who are willing to make enormous personal sacrifices, including, very clearly, the ultimate sacrifice. Clearly, there are hundreds and maybe even thousands who are willing to hurl Molotov cocktails at the police, risk arrest and imprisonment, and torch sections of the city. Given their passions, it seems abundantly clear that nothing less than complete independence is an acceptable outcome for this segment of protestors. People who are throwing Molotov cocktails at armed police are not going to support "one country, two systems." Some Rubicon has been crossed, and there seem to be only two outcomes at this point: Hong Kong would be put on some path to self-rule that will appease the protestors or PLA marching into Hong Kong with overwhelming force to secure the city. I don't think the former is likely. As for the latter, after so much exhaustion, I think the majority of Hongkongers could welcome it. However, once PLA (or some special unit of PLA) enters Hong Kong, the first thing they'll impose will be the extradition of "criminals" into brand new "reeducation camps" across the border in Guangdong.
I feel for Hong Kongers and have made friends there since the 1970’s. A friend just returned from Beijing and relayed that most mainland Chinese think the protesters are in the wrong. I love HK, and China, and the people I have become friends with in both. Regardless of the outcome of these protests, Hong Kong will eventually be integrated into the Pearl River Megalopolis. Reality will set in. China will be patient until it can’t.
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My parents were in Tiananmen Square the day before the "big event." Therefore, I have always followed these events in China closely. It's clear that a government crackdown is not working so far. It seems instead to be energizing protesters to demand to keep the democracy they were promised. I wish them well.
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@Barbara: to my surprise I learned yesterday that one of the pieces of information that came from WikiLeaks was that there was never any massacre in Tiananmen Square (although there was bloodshed elsewhere that night). The press lied to us. Did you know that?
Incidentally, Tiananmen Square is not the situation that we have here. We already have all the rights - free speech, freedom of assembly and rule of law. HK has a Western-style system, not a Mainland one. Remember - one country two systems. Please stop wishing civil unrest on us.
FYI... The Telegraph is a right-wing British newspaper.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html
Under the 'one country, two systems' principle based on which Hong Kong was returned to Chinese rule, Hong Kong is legally entitled to a considerable degree of autonomy till 2047.
It is also true that after 2047, Hong Kong and its residents lose all their rights to special treatment and automatically revert back to being an ordinary part of China. So legally speaking, all China has to do is wait till 2047 to send in the tanks.
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@A Cynic
Almost right. It's true that "one country, two systems" will end in 2047, but China does have a constitution, and "sending in the tanks" is likely to violate a number of people's rights.
@tamtom
Rights? For people? In China?
My dear friend, surely you jest. The only right any ordinary person in China has is the right to shut up and do exactly what the communist party tells him to do.
Ask any Uighur or Tibetean if you don't believe me.
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Wouldn't China itself end up being stronger with democracy? With courage and leadership, Chairman Xi could go down in history as one of the great leaders if he used this opportunity to lead a shift from autocracy to democracy Chinese style. Xi's stated and I think true desire is to reduce corruption, and most autocracies are far more corrupt than many democracies. If this unlikely but powerful shift happened, China would prosper and we would be in a much better position to work out all the trade and IP issues and have less likelihood of war.
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@szyzygy Very good point, and one that would seem to be relevant to the protests. Hong Kong, though having a different system, is a part of China, so along with opposing measures such as extradition to China's legal system, wouldn't it make sense for protesters to also peacefully advocate for changes in China itself?
@szyzygy:"Wouldn't China itself end up being stronger with democracy? "
Sure, so let't get on with the regime change. Will you, your children, grandchildren join the military to force that regime change?
Otherwise, the Chinese leadership will do what it feels it must do to maintain control over its internal affairs.
As one Chinese leader once asked: "OK, will you take 200 million dissidents into the United States?".
What if democracy supporters from all over the world indicated that unless China upholds the agreement made with Great Britain, they would no longer purchase goods made in China?
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This piece gladdens the hearts of those who cheer these demonstrators to achieve an outcome where Hong Kong government and China back down, cancelling the extradition bill and strengthening democratic measures for the people of Hong Kong. Such could happen if we were living in a dream.
What of the voices of the multitudes (millions?) of Hong Kong people who silently demonstrate or who stay home? We don't hear from them in this piece or elsewhere in US media. Those provoking police, causing considerable physical damage are getting the headlines and making demands, amplified in the media, but very unlikely to be agreed to by authorities.
We are in need of a better balanced report from Hong Kong; we're getting one, filled with passion of rebellion, which may be weighted too much to that side.
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@blgreenie: as an expat in HK I can confirm that these news reports are biased. Do you remember how the press wanted to believe in “weapons of mass destruction”, so they believed a flimsy biased source. People who are trying to fit this situation into “brave freedom fighters vs authoritarian government” are lying to themselves and to us. HK people are getting fed up of the increasing violence of a hardcore group (which is beginning to be reported now). There are much better ways of opening up dialogue than holding a gun to someone’s head, and trashing the city in the process.
As Donald Trump continues his choke hold on democracy here with his attacks on Congresswomen of color; plans to ignore the "rule of law" to build his wall with the misuse of his pardon pardon to free those convicted of crimes in stealing the property he needs to build it on; and his ongoing attempt to bend law enforcement into protecting him not you and me with attacks on former F.B.I. Director James Comey who refused a similar request to compromise the "rule of law" by freeing Michael Flynn and ending the Russia investigation; we see how the end-game plays out in Hong Kong where a ruthless dictator, Chinese President Xi Jinping, is on the verge of snuffing out democracy with Trump's support in Hong Kong. It's easy not to care, but Hong Kong may be the very canary that's warning us of the imminent threat our democracy is facing under the encroaching autocratic "rule of Trump." With our elected representatives eerily silent as more and more of our democracy is being shredded by Trump, we, too, may soon be forced into the streets if we want to save it. Yes, you say, but we have an election coming. But, do you think at this rate that Donald Trump will allow it when if he loses he may go to jail?!
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“We are like a frog in a beaker of water that is being boiled, and we’re trying to jump out. If we die, well, we were going to die anyway.”
fateful words applying to so much of today's world.
if the cascading environmental collapse doesn't get us the loss of antibiotics from our pharmacological arsenal will.
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"I believe the violence is a mistake that increases the risk of a crackdown." That is a true statement but a related question is that does any one know, with evidence, for sure who are those who started the violence? Are they protesters or infiltrators who like to damage the name of the protesters?
When you say "Trump and other world leaders should make clearer that Xi will pay a severe price if he uses force" what do you have in mind? When armies were used in the Tiananmen massacre, the west "sanctioned" China by admitting her to WTO. So what can they do now? Ban them from Trump's club in Miami?
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@Notmypresident
We put children in cages! We let children die because of lack of medical care! We export people who rely on medical care! We encourage racism and antisemitism by turning a blind eye to white supremacy and hate filled web sites. Our police shoot first and then ask questions! Our President lies to us everyday and has become an embarrassment to America. And yet, we have the moral authority to criticize another Country? Ridiculous!
A bit of virtue signaling and without the brilliance of Bret Stephens.
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If China is clever they will work with Hong Kong and save face by doing something never done before by working a peaceful and modern solution. Hong Kong is still important. Draconian and military efforts will cause loss of face for the. hi see government instead of respect if they continue to use drastic efforts to make Hong Kong citizen comply.
I love Hong Kong and wish it the best.
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@Oh My: you are 180 degrees wrong. The hardcore protesters need to stop their violence. The Hong Kong police (with a very few exceptions) have been very restrained. Hong Kong people would like these violent protesters to stop. It is very simple. Do you understand now?
This doesn’t mean that HK people don’t want a discussion about the future of HK, but not this way - with a gun held to the head of government and massive illegal disruption and damage to property.
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Pretty much right on all of it. Demonstrations going on way too long. The demonstrations might have provided a negotiation opportunity earlier. None now. Day by day, these type of demonstrations shrink China's options. US and other countries should be working with China, rather than antagonizing them, over the issue.
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Thank you Nick for being on the ground in my former home so I and others know what is happening in that beautiful city. Thank you for your analysis as your comments come with understanding of both HK as well as the mainland.
We are indeed fortunate for your perspective.
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Nick is nearly spectacular, consistently. I remember his great stories about a Vietnamese girl (Phung) struggling to get an education against her parents’ will and one about a man (Kevin Cooper) wrongfully convicted (probably) of multiple murders and the California attorney general refusing to test archived DNA and reassessing the conviction. Cops lied and his defense attorney was clearly incompetent. These are the finest examples of an extraordinary journalist.
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The documentary "Joshua," which talks about Beijing's attempts to impose severe educational reform on Hong Kong, shows how Hong Kong has a legacy as a Westernized, independent territory, and how since British rule ended, authoritarian China has been getting more and more aggressive in essentially annexing and converting it. There is a large difference between older residents, who are more likely to submit to Beijing's authority, and the youth, who are sickened by that thought. I fear China is of the position that they can't back down. Neither will the protesters. I think violence is imminent; how else does this play out?
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"...the slow erosion of the rule of law..."
something we here in the US have been witnessing since 2016 and yet we remain complacent frogs in increasingly hot water thinking we are at a spa weekend get away.
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I think this last paragraph is a bit of an unnecessary gimmick.
“Many Americans don’t even bother to vote, while Hong Kongers shame us by enduring tear gas and threats of job dismissals in hopes of attaining what we take for granted.”
Millions of Americans have protested in the streets these past two plus years to speak out against our own government’s treatment of migrants, the environment, and racial and gender inequality.
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@Evan
and of those millions how many DID NOT VOTE in 2016?
the outcome of 2016 argues more than just a few in both the Democratic primary and the general election.
2
@Evan. Where did all these “millions” demonstrate?
I don't see how this ends any other way than with China getting its way and they don't need a major crack down to do it. All that is required is the will to give up nothing and use attrition against the protesters. Eventually enough people will be in jail, hospitalized by thugs or cowed by economic pressure. I don't see any reason China couldn't continue as they have for months or even years. Jjust see Kashmir for a good example of what long term oppression looks like and how little anyone else in the world cares about it. Eventually internation audiences will get bored and demonstrations and crackdowns in Hong Kong will just be considered a normal thing that happens.
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@Nate: that is one perspective. Another would be that the longer these violent hardcore protesters go on, the more they will generate opposition from the general public. As a peace-loving expat (eligible to vote), I would like the world to stop giving oxygen and encouragement to these self-absorbed and proud protesters.
Yes, HK would like a discussion on the future, but not while violent activists are holding a gun to the government’s head and disrupting and destroying the fabric of this city. I have lived in the U.K. and the US and I can say that practically speaking HK is as free as the US, in some ways freer - minimal gun violence (at least until now) and government healthcare for those who need it.
These people do not represent us. Stop giving them a status they have forfeited.
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I've always wanted to go to Hong Kong and never more so than after watching the absolute genius of Hongkongers as they protest to retain their independence. That said, I hope this ends peacefully, and soon. I live in L.A., and I'm completely aware of how the LAPD would respond to these kinds of protests and some of the (unfortunate) violence involved. I wish the best for Hong Kong. Hongkongers, both police and protesters, deserve the best of each other.
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Use of force by Beijing will simply be more evidence of its glaring illegitimacy in the affairs of Hong Kong. No system that has Tiananmen as its legacy has any legitimacy or moral authority to govern and certainly not the free consent of its citizens. Old shaky pillars indeed, especially given that the economic 'miracle is slowing.
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@GR:"No system that has Tiananmen as its legacy has any legitimacy or moral authority to govern and certainly not the free consent of its citizens. "
That ship sailed a long time ago.
China has done worse than Tiananmen Square over the years yet we continue to expand relations and do business with them.
Perhaps you can resurrect Chiang Kai Shek.
Other than that, Hong Kong is an internal affair for China to handle. They're sensitive like that.
@Jp
Not quite "internal" yet. Until 2047, HK constitutes the "other system".
But that's clearly being chipped away at, and zero progress has been made towards more local democracy, as guaranteed by the Basic Law of 1990.
In many ways, on the international stage, the People's Republic is its own worst enemy.
The people of Hong Kong are demonstrating for the same thing that the American colonist sought in 1776. The right to govern themselves; that is, not to be governed by people who are far away and have no interest in them. One of the rallying cries in 1776 was live free or die. This is the same spirit that the people of Hong Kong are exhibiting today.
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My understanding is that these protests began in response to an impending change in the law that would allow Hong Kong to extradite its citizens to the Chinese mainland for trial. Having seemingly achieved a (temporary?) reprieve from that, however, the protests have only continued to grow, presumably with a more expansive mandate.
What is that mandate? What is it that the protestors ultimately want to achieve? "Freedom" and "democracy" are generalizations, not answers. Are they fighting for more autonomy? To hold police accountable for their atrocities committed against Hong Kong citizens? To achieve actual independence from China? What? There is repression, unrest, and discontent, but is there any leadership in the opposition, and if so, what exactly does it want to achieve? If the Chinese government came to the negotiating table today, what would the protestors' specific demands be?
I'm very ill-informed on this situation, but I lay the blame for that on the Times and other media sources. I believe in peaceful public protest as a human right. I'm not a pro-China nationalist looking to sow doubt and / or claim that Chinese government propaganda outlets are telling the "real story;" I'm just not understanding the "real story" that the protestors are trying to tell. What exactly is their endgame?
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You have not been reading the Times. There have been many articles on how the Hong Kong people lost their right to elect their leader 5 yrs ago when China decided only approved candidates could run for election. The protesters want the right back to decide who their leader is.
@Mary Sampson: Chris, NH is making some good points. The situation here is more complex than you have presented, and these violent hardcore protesters are not the ones we want to represent us in Hong Kong. Whatever the exact system (and the current one is actually quite good - please demonstrate any real harm to me so far), we would still like to have a city to live in.
Please stop supporting these violent protesters, but by all means support the general discussion as a peaceful one. The only thing that is prolonging the violence are these hardcore protesters. They have tried to kill an off-duty policeman! This is in addition to the hundred or so policemen who are off work because they have been injured by protesters and countless more police who are working on with injuries.
I sympathize with the protesters and their desire for freedom. I hope some of that thirst for liberty spreads to mainland China and changes that government for the better.
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Domestic tranquility is an ideal seldom achieved without winning consent of the governed.
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Thomas Paine said "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." The quote by the 25 year old university student "If we die, well, we were gooing to die anyway." sounds much Emiliano Zapata, "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." I am not advocating for violence, I am advocating for non-violence, and for them to follow the way of Gandi. "In some cases non-violence requires more militancy than violence." Cesar Chavez.
It seems the Pro Democracy movement is trying to do just that and I give them a lot of credit for trying to do it, while being fully aware of the consequences of doing so, and the consequences of not doing so. There is a Chineese proverb that says; "The man that strikes first admits that his ideas have given out." Benjamin Franklin said "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporay safety, deserve neither liberty or safety."
None of us know, how this will end. It is my hope that the militancy of non-violent protest will reap the rewards of liberty for the people of Hong Kong. No matter how it ends, I want to remind them what Patrick Henry said, "If life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I do not know what course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty, or give me Death!" and "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." Jefferson. I hope the U.S., steps up to help you.
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@Paul Piluso
Add a quote of W. H. Auden's great anti-war poem, "The Shield of Achilles":
" What their foes like to do was done, their shame
Was all the worst could wish; they lost their pride
And died as men before their bodies died."
1
@Paul Piluso
Unfortunety, I seriously don't Trump WILL, because in my opinio, the only thing he cares about is himself and his family. XI, will buy him off, and Trump, will declare VICTORY!!!
The most important sentence in this article should really be at the beginning of this story rather than at the end for it puts a great deal into a very clear and sharp perspective:
"Many Americans don’t even bother to vote, while Hong Kongers shame us by enduring tear gas and threats of job dismissals in hopes of attaining what we take for granted."
Clearly the situation in China is extremely serious and no laughing matter, however, seeing that brave protester use a tennis racket, in perfect form no less, to "hit back tear gas canisters" shows the intriguing and innovative spirit in these protesters.
I thought Chris McGrath captured the moment beautifully.
I recall the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre extremely vividly. At least the cops aren't shooting at these protesters.
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@Marge Keller
Amen. This will not end well.
11
@Marge Keller wrote: "At least the cops aren't shooting at these protesters."
The cops are from Hong Kong and they have families in Hong Kong.
As you may recall, in 1989, the Beijing unit of the Chinese military was disarmed and moved away from Tienanmen Square because of their refusal to fire on unarmed neighbors. Chairman Deng brought in troops from a remote part of China and had them run over unarmed civilians with tanks.
21
@Marge Keller I enjoy reading your thoughtful comments. Please keep it up. It is truly amazing how we take the right to vote for granted, look where it's got us.
9
My husband is a Chinese-American whose father was born in British Hong Kong. My father-in-law tells me all the time about the cruel and unequal treatment he received living in Hong Kong in the 50s and 60s. There was no right of democracy or free speech whatsoever for Hong Kong people under British colonial rule. Democracy never existed. The Hong Kong protesters completely undermined and discredited themselves the moment they started waving British and American flags.
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@Sarah Johnson, I agree with you. If being a colony is so good why do we want to be independent? Now Hong Kong was part of China and became a British trophy. She was returned to her rightful country. If you are unhappy work at it peacefully. No one will hurt their own country. Perhaps, you don't want China but it is China that can give you what you want. You just have to work within the system
10
I too was born in HK in the 50’s. I can’t agree with your father-in-law more about the colonial times and what the young people had misunderstood.
21
@Sarah Johnson, Britain had suggested, since the 1945 to introduce democratic reform in Hong Kong 4 times until the hand over to Chinese rule, but was denied but the communists and was threatened that Hong Kong would be taken back to Chinese rule by military means as soon as democratic reform was introduced. Therefore Hong Kong people was denied democracy by the communists under British rule. Democratic reformed was promised by the communists and was written into the basic law before the British handed over Hong Kong to China which completely trashed the written promise almost 10 years ago. Does this explain why there were protests ?
68
I, too, lived in Hong Kong and share Mr. Kristof's love for this great city and it's people which is why I also share his fears--especially that this might end in bloodshed.
The protests have now taken on a life of their own which no one can stop. Destruction of property and acts of violence will only give China an excuse not only to use force but also to limit even more the democracy HK now has. This wonderful city which prides itself on it's prosperity, stability and order is now in play. It's getting harder and harder to see how this ends well.
87
@DS The problem, as you suggest, is that neither side is prepared to compromise or even fully negotiate with the other. And i don't know of any back-channel, track-two negotiations either. The government's strategy, as I understand it from my interviews, is to crack down while also blaming protesters for economic problems, and then hope it fizzles. I don't think that will work. On the contrary, someone may be killed soon, and that will escalate the movement and the violence.
13
@Nicholas Kristof
there has been no compromise or negotiating because the HK government lacks sincerity. Lam's "dialogue platform" was obviously a thinly vailed attempt to pause the protests and delay any conclusion until hopefully a time when HK society had forgotten what they were protesting for. there was absolutely no sincerity in the proposal. it was simply another political trick. the government telling people that once they calmed down, the government would *then* come to the table, was another trick. there is a dearth of sincerity in the government, and HK people know it. if the HK government really wants to negotiate and resolve the conflict, they will need to offer an olive branch first, a *real* olive branch.
3
I am so ashamed to say that I, like so many of my fellow citizens, kind of followed what was going on in Hong Kong, and always felt they would work it out and well I was always distracted by the continual political drama going on here since 2016. I still only have a very basic understanding of what has led to the present crisis, but from what I understand and correct me, as I know you will, it is a loss of basic rights that have been slowly dissolved since Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997. After reading "The Mask I Wear" by Karen Cheung here in the Opinion, I have to ask myself, would I have the courage to fight for rights that I had and are now lost? Would I still continue to fight for those rights if I knew that my family, loved ones and work would be threatened? You know, I can talk the talk, but can I walk the walk?
I commend and applaud the courage of these Hongkongers. It is safe for me to do so here half a world away, doesn't cost me anything but they put me to shame for taking my basic rights guaranteed by our Constitution for granted and make me wonder who would defend them, if threatened, if not us.
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@Laurie: re “the mask I wear”. Please do not assume that everything she claims is actually correct. There has been a lot of comment about “false reporting” against the protesters, but it is very difficult to tell what is true from both sides. For example, there is no conclusive evidence that the woman who lost an eye was hit by police. Protesters were catapulting ball-bearings and one member of the woman’s family has said that she was hit by one of those. She has refused to release the x-rays that could prove either way. And there is very little press given to the injured police (over a hundred from what I have heard directly).
What is clear and true is that peaceful marches that keep to the agreed route and timing have passed peacefully. The problem has been where hard-core protesters have deliberately forced a situation where police have had to take charge of the situation. Hardcore protesters have thrown missiles since early on (bricks, iron rods and catapulted ball bearings) and have recently been throwing Molotov cocktails.
These young people are heading the way of the Baader Meinhof gang. They are being radicalised by encouragement of illegal behaviour. Please reconsider.
14
@Laurie Knoop
Duly noted.
Like I said I only have a basic understanding of the political situation that has led Hong Kong and its people there.
These two opinion pieces have made me try to understand what is going on in Hong Kong right now. Just like here there is going to be "Fake News" and it is up to all of us to do our due diligence to see what is true and what isn't.
13
@Andrew, The only reason to set up a fire wall in a country is to lie to their people and to prevent people from knowing the truth. China had installed an extremely powerful fire wall to prevent their people from accessing the truth ! China's budget for controlling the Chinese people far exceeded its entire military budget !
21
The writer is correct; these protests put us Americans to shame. We are steadily losing what those in Hong Kong are putting their lives on the line to protect—freedom and democracy. And yet our own protests are limited to edgy tweets and status updates, and the occasional comment to a New York Times article.
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@Ed Suominen My outrage at what is happening to our democracy continues yet I also continue to vacillate over how to channel it. Getting behind and supporting Democratic candidates, both presidential as well as on down the ticket (esp. Amy DeGrath), is something we can all do along with voting. However, a new outrage has appeared on almost a daily basis recently. I feel a strong urge to “do something more” along the lines of the (mostly) nonviolent protests occurring in Hong Kong). I just wonder why the broad coalitions we have against the current administration are not leading in this direction. In my opinion, it’s that bad and has been that bad. My fear, of course, is that the present state of volatile tension would quickly boil over into violence....by fellow citizens not just law enforcement. Is that why we haven’t followed Hong Konger’s brave example?
4
@Gina Joseph Dewey The best thing to do in the United States is to vote, to encourage others to vote, and to speak out so that your words make sense to as many people as possible. In Hong Kong it is not possible to vote for the executive and for the majority of the legislature I believe, so peaceful protest along with speaking out is the best way to express the will of the people. Violent protest is not effective and counterproductive.
2
@Ed Suominen This is not about Trump. And if it were Trump is democracy working. A backlash against first world problems of Political correctness, and virtue signalling globalists trampling on the unemployed. To relate everything to America, comes from the left, and the false equivalencies coming from the CCP.
This is much bigger. It is about democracy versus totalitarianism.
1
Mr. Kristof demonstrates a poor understanding of the situation. Hong Kong is PART of China, just as Manhattan is PART of the US. That happened because the British RETURNED Hong Kong to China in 1997. The British chose not to defend Hong Kong's freedom, instead they signed a treaty in which it was promised that Hong Kong's political system would be preserved until 2047. The agreement was always a sham, intended for Britain to save face. Hong Kong's freedom was lost in 1997. It is a province of 7.8 million people in a country of 1.4 billion people with one of the largest armies in the world. China's policy is to crush separatism, as is the case also in the US. America fought a bloody civil war when the South wanted independence.
Mr. Kristof quotes a young woman, “If we didn’t protest, this might become just another Chinese city.” That's the point... when the British returned Hong Kong to China in 1997, Hong Kong became another Chinese city. I'm certainly sympathetic to the HKers desire for freedom, but the reality is that they are a small province in an authoritarian country.
Westerners should NOT be cheerleading these protests unless they are prepared to step in with assistance, and that will not happen. Mr. Kristof should go back and look at the Hungarian Revolt of 1956. The situation is the same. Easy to encourage other people to spill their blood.
5
I wonder what Sec. Elaine Chou (McConnell's wife) thinks about the dispute in Hong Cong. What side would she be on?
Since her family has deep economic ties to China and she is the US Secretary of Transportation with personal ties to China, would she favor the Chinese intervention in Hong Cong? And where does Mitch McConnell stand since he has been given millions of dollars by her family?
9
Regardless of the result, these protests will make history. The literal meaning of "Ga yao" is "add oil" - like adding gas to a car, accelerating, or adding fuel to the flames. They will need it - I am not optimistic though as China does not believe in democracy and arguably never really has. I wonder if these protests will be the last before China clamps down entirely on protests of this nature in the future. People will remember and it will only breed more discontent in the future.
6
"Many Americans don’t even bother to vote, while Hong Kongers shame us by enduring tear gas and threats of job dismissals in hopes of attaining what we take for granted."
When I returned from mainland China many years ago I kissed the blessed land of my home in America. I never thought that we could lose our freedom until now. What's happening in Hong Kong is happening here, only many of us are too complacent to see that the heat is boiling the water to the point that we will not be able to jump out.
16
If China does what everyone expects, the sanctions should be draconian and enduring, especially those aimed at Chinese officials personally.
10
Democracy and people’s voice matters. China must respect the opinion of Hong Kong citizens.
14
HK - one big step forward for humanity's progress and China's destruction of it, one huge step backwards.
9
The photo of the protestor with a tennis racket is an amazing image--
14
One of your better op-eds
9
There was a time when men were kind
When their voices were soft
And their words inviting
There was a time when love was blind
And the world was a song
And the song was exciting
There was a time
Then it all went wrong
I dreamed a dream in times gone by
When hope was high and life worth living
I dreamed, that love would never die
I dreamed that God would be forgiving
Then I was young and unafraid
And dreams were made and used and wasted
There was no ransom to be paid
No song unsung, no wine untasted
But the tigers come at night
With their voices soft as thunder
As they tear your hope apart
As they turn your dream to shame
He slept a summer by my side
He filled my days with endless wonder
He took my childhood in his stride
But he was gone when autumn came
And still I dream he'll come to me
That we will live the years together
But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather
I had a dream my life would be
So different from this hell I'm living
So different now from what it seemed
Now life has killed the dream
I dreamed
20
I always thought it would only be a matter of time before the 1997 handover agreement premised on "One Country, Two Systems" would break down. As much as I dislike colonialism, at this point I wish the UK had kept HK. But I guess the 99-year lease was up, with no chance of renewal?
14
@Gary - There was no chance at all. China could see the value of Hong Kong.
12
Hong Kong will be crushed. Watch where the resulting diaspora settles. That as yet unknown place will be become one of the great cities of the 21st Century.
9
Taipei, Vancouver, Toronto.
@Walt Bruckner - For the prototype, see Vancouver BC in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
The US makes it as tough as possible to vote. Only allowing voting on a working day (Tuesday) with long lines on presidential elections, discriminates against working people especially if they have families and impossible for single parent households.
23
@Richard Katz DO. - Do you not have mail-in ballots in your district?
Mr. Kristof
As an American living in HK, witnessing the unfolding of protest related events since June, I am saddened to see that rather than fortifying democracy, freedom and justice the protesters seem to be equally destroying them with their actions. Democracy means everyone's voice gets heard. Unfortunately the action of the protestors have resulted in an environment that people, esp those who hold opinion or beliefs differ from protestors, aren't being heard.
Mr. Kristof, I hope during your visit and coverage of Hong Kong, you will provide balanced reporting representing not only the perspective of the protestors but also the Hong Kongers whose views differ from pro-democracy protestors. Hong Kong desperately need unbiased reporting but it seems journalists here function more as advocators, judge and jury in their coverage.
14
Will be interesting to see whether or not the Chinese government permits Kristoff entry to HK for future reporting.
1
@Wai
as a Germany visitor said to Hong Kong protesters: keep fighting for your rights, because i can leave, but you can't.
1
Xi wishes to spread harmony and prosperity thoughout the region so he says. How much is that worth if one must be careful about expressing their thoughts.
One these pages Trump is mocked,derided and called every name imaginable. A Chinese citizen mocking Xi this way disappears. Some commentators infer the later is in their best interests; give up your spiritual ideals intellectual and political opinions along with voting..in exchange for day to day needs and comfort.
Hong Kong protesters can see both systems up close and prefer freedoms.
Many in the US prefer government provided security, free health care, free college... while roundly criticizing elected leaders. can't have both.
5
@Lane
False equivalencies, there. Wanting the government to provide services and to actually regulate capitalism in favor of the many as opposed to the current system of regulations that favor the few [corporations and the wealthy] is not giving up freedoms. It is merely expecting the government to do its job.
It strikes me as being very sad that so many cannot distinguish between a government that provides services but does not in any sense "own" its citizens and a restrictive government that strips you of your rights and even citizenship if you don't strictly adhere to specific words and behaviors.
8
Are we sure it’s actually protestors throwing the Molotov cocktails? Where’s the evidence that they are not agent provocateurs planted by Beijing?
27
@Andrew
Pretty impossible to prove, either way. It's just that we know PRC is not unlikely to avail itself of such deception. It's in the propaganda business deeper than most. It's how they keep the country running, cowed by lack of any information but what they choose to release.
@Andrew, you're right. In fact, police has been caught on camera disguised as protesters throwing motolov cocktails at journalists and shooting real protesters.
1
Sad to say that this will likely not end well for Hong Kong’s people. Freedom in the real world is merely the distance between the predator and the prey. China is the predator and is closing in. It is not in China’s make-up to countenance civil liberties. It is authoritarian despotism on steroids. Mao said “Power comes out the barrel of a gun.” Xi agrees.
17
After 2016 my mother told me “everything will be ok, because there’s laws to keep him in check.” This seems to be a common American attitude: that our “democracy” is some sort of physical law, and not the result of a shared belief in a system.
Americans don’t deserve democracy because we don’t bother to defend it.
17
I remember the the Vietnam War protests (called riots in poorer areas of DC) as a member of the national guard. Our group had the responsibility of circling and protecting some statue. When the students started screaming in pain at us, the enemy, we took off our helmets and regulation “short hair” wigs hollering “hay, we are with you.” We also drove around in Jeeps to see what we happening elsewhere and were dismayed to see young Marines, terrified in sand-bagged bunkers with machine guns on tripods. I assume, they, like us had live ammunition.
Even in our Nation’s Capital, high risk military show of might was the order of the day —against my friends, my neighbors. Machine guns in the hands of young, terrified recruits? In our Capitol. Pray for the protestors, Hong Kong and the Chinese.
14
@Neil
Neil...the scenarios you describe of armed national guard soldiers on the streets of America during protests of the Vietnam Nam war resulted in college students being killed on campus at Kent State.
I remember it all too well. In the past two years, it comes to mind all too often.
8
Yes @Mary Ann, won't be forgetting the Ohio National Guard opening up on Kent State students, killing 4, wounding 9 in 1970. Would be interesting to have some follow-up interviews with those who were there. "Can't Happen Here?"
"I believe the violence is a mistake that increases the risk of a crackdown. But the vast majority of protesters are nonviolent" "
The choice to be non-violent can be principled or pragmatic. I am happy that the vast majority of protesters are non-violent in Hong Kong. Many of them are Buddhists, part of their culture. Unfortunately. the conflict in Kashmir (which has many parallels to what is going on Hong Kong is extremely violent). Violent protests in Kashmir has increased the government crackdown and the primary cause of human suffering in Kashmir
The Tibetan freedom struggle is a good role model, it is notable for its overwhelming commitment to nonviolence. A principled approach to nonviolence is often linked to religious or cultural associations.
" Consider non-violence to be compassion in action. It doesn’t mean weakness, cowering in fear, or simply doing nothing. It is to act without violence, motivated by compassion, recognizing the rights of others."
Dalai Lama .
7
@Padman
Unfortunately the Tibetan freedom struggle is accomplishing zero, zip, nothing. Unless you count the continued replacement of the locals by Han Chinese an accomplishment? I'm not advocating violence but the let's not pretend the Tibetans are getting anywhere.
"Granted this must be done delicately, because publicly siding with protesters risks confirming Xi’s narrative that America is secretly steering the movement."
This is what our liberal democracy has come too, afraid to even voice support for those seeking democracy — here and abroad.
Better wake up people!
16
Hong Kong holds up the American flag and tennis rackets to fight against tear gas.
Americans hold up the Hook and Sickle flag while holding $5 latte and going to the grocery in December to pick up fresh fruit ( not available often in old Soviet states).
How out of touch and small our "woke" protestors are and unaware of their own "priviledge" of being in the US. No one would let a baby Xi fly.
6
Hang tough, Hong Kong! May your courage inspire humanity to stand firm against tyranny.
81
Tear gas has become a highly profitable business for US manufacturers. While the UK, and later the full EU, have withdrawn export licenses for sales of tear gas to Hong Kong, US companies continue shipping to Hong Kong. The Hong Kong police has violated many of the standard operating procedures for tear gas use, using it in subway stations, using expired munitions spewing cyanide and other toxic chemicals, launching directly against protesters bodies at close range, all the typical violations we have seen in the Arab Spring uprisings. Safety data on tear gas still rely on decades old studies done on healthy military personnel, not taking into account that civilian populations are more vulnerable. Even the US military realized they used way too much tear gas in gas mask training for decades, causing lung injuries in thousands of recruits. The suppression of knowledge about tear gas toxicity is convenient allowing governments and police to violate citizens.
The President and Congress need to stop tear gas exports now.
47
@Eric Sorkin
Why would they when it's money they value?
1
Mr. Kristof writes "Trump and other world leaders should make clearer that Xi will pay a severe price if he uses force." Dream on.
Trump might revel in confronting China on trade because inside his twisted cone of awareness, this makes him look "tough" on the rubes back home who hang on his every word while he fleeces them and picks their pockets.
When it comes to resistance to autocratic oppression, however, Trump resides foursquare in Xi's corner, even envious about the policing tools at Xi's disposal to impose his dictatorial will on a population that refuses to accept it.
30
It's depressing how little Americans care about this issue. In a generation it seems we went from caring about freedom, democracy and oppression in countries like HK/China to pure apathy. Witness the small number of comments Mr. Kristof's comments generate. Keep it up, Nicholas.
71
@Robert A lot of comments are being censored. That is why there are so few. Some of us feel very veru passionately about this, seeing as we do the cp,omg China US struggle, the end of one empire start of the next, coming to ahead with these brave people. Its a turning point in the history of civilization.
This is HUGE issue, and the liberals-that-were in the US have become cynical and relativist. False equivalencies between democracy and totalitarianism. Every pro-democracy comment is swamped by 5 pro-CCP comments, without consideration of whether the pro-CCP commentators are speaking for themselves, or part of the soft power push.
5
@Robert
In a generation? Don't think so. President Obama cared deeply about freedom, democracy, and oppression. This happened in one election on one day in November.
Robert of San Francisco wrote:
"... In a generation it seems we went from caring about freedom, democracy and oppression in countries like HK/China to pure apathy ..."
2
The Chinese government has spent a lot of time and effort in the mainland media vilifying the protesters of Hong Kong because it knows the danger of its own citizens beginning to ask basic questions about democracy. However this ends, Beijing is on the losing side of history because you cannot have it both ways by forcing communism into a capitalist structure.
10
@YesIKnowtheMuffinMan The Western media has also ignored the most violent acts by the protesters or have justified ... Both sides are equally bad and it just obscures the real issues in Hong Kong.
2
@Lucas Tam, the most violent acts such as throwing motolov cocktails are committed by police undercovers. This has been caught in camera and the videos and photos are all over the internet, if you are willing to see.
So somewhere in the constitution is the “right to free assembly “ but how many times over the last two years have we seen peaceful demonstrators including those in wheelchairs carted off to jail?! Seems the only amendment to the constitution that has any emphasis by the right is the second half of the second amendment while they of course ignore the first half.
13
@K
That is an interesting perspective, Miss Direction.
2
Appealing to Americans is clearly the wrong way to go. Americans only talk about democracy. America is at best a waning democracy / waxing republican-plutocracy. In reality Democracy is long gone here. Our President was not elected by a majority. Most of us wouldn't protest the most egregious of injustices. The few of us that do protest with any vigor are shot and/or beaten by "police" outfitted with military gear, tanks and assault rifles... and, as this article points out, we can't even be bothered to vote.
32
We are able to empty our disenchantments in the ballot box. The Hongkongers can’t. That is the big difference.
I dislike Trump, but the reality is he was elected in a fair election. Don’t like the rules? Let’s protest and try to change them.
America is becoming like China. The Republican Party is now the communist revolution that overtook China in the fifties with the encouragement of Russia. We are losing our grip on democracy and the world is watching the failure of our institutions to rise to the challenge ahead. I think the media is being manipulated by a loosely regulated group of internet companies with monopolistic power based on free speech and propaganda. The editorial pages can be a place to address these problems and restore our democracy.
11
If most protestors are non-violent, and they stand by the non-violent acts, then why don’t they condemn those who are violent and uncivil? Because those who are non-violent stood by those who are violent, the non-violent protestors are in part is supporting a violent and uncivil protest.
The violent and uncivil acts that the protestors are conducting (this started at Week 2 when they forcefully entered the governmental legislative building and defaced it..before any police actions; now they are just damaging public facilities, cripple public transportation, destroying traffic lights, burning things) are enough to put them into jail in any other civil societies.
Those who are non-violent have the freedom to chose where they protests. If the non-violent protestors decided to join the violent rioters, then they have voluntarily put themselves in harms way.
If protestors have been civil from from the start and remained civil, perhaps they would have gathered more international support by now.
The government already took a step back by putting the bill off indefinitely after week 2, yet the protests only got more uncivil and violent, so does that give the government any reason or incentives to do more?
10
Finance and tourism are the pillars of Hong Kong's prosperity. The rioters are destroying both. Nicholas Kristof is there to cheer them on!
Are riot, destruction, and chaos a path to democracy? I cannot think of a precedent. Was democracy achieved by the Tienanmen protests in Beijing and the "Arab Spring" in Cairo?
Why would China bother to "crush" Hong Kong when the citizens are crushing the lifeblood of the city, day-by-day? What is the economic value of Hong Kong to China if the financial sector moves to Shanghai, and the businessmen and tourists stop coming because the airport is closed and the streets are blocked by battles between rioters and police.
I despair for that beautiful, safe, well-functioning city I knew from short stays and business trips. Please, all you Western pundits, statesmen, and journalists, use your good offices to calm, not encourage, those who are destroying Hong Kong!
8
@AynRant
i just returned from Hong Kong during which time some protests were going on--mostly peaceful, even chanting was not loud until police came with pepper spray, tear gas , rubber ( or real) bullets and thugs beating indiscriminately in subway cars and stations. at times, after rallies, a few protesters might throw eggs at official buildings . while you only look at "economic" side , Hong Kong people's daily lives are affected . any government policy elicited more than 1/4 of populations' ire is definitely NOT right.
15
Pretty much all democracies were forged in civil disobedience and/or outright war. America can look to the revolutionary war and it’s antecedents of the Boston tea party and the events of Lexington and concord. Most of the European democracies were a result of WWII. Gandhi’s constant peaceful civil disobedience brought India around.
I’m sorry AunRant, but there are very few instances of democracies being forged or saved by sitting back and waiting for autocrats to just let go. I’m with the Hong Kong demonstrators!
18
@AynRant
Was democracy achieved by the American Revolution? The French Revolution? The fall of the the Eastern Bloc?
What about many democracies that are were once Western colonies--was there always a peaceful transfer of power?
Spare me, self-determination is a human right. I'm sorry you are bothered by people fighting for the future sovereignty of THEIR own nation.
14
The best people in this life are those who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others in order to make the world a better place for everyone.
What else do we really think we have?
13
@Blue Moon ... violence is not the only way to achieve democracy despite what your American history class has taught you. Many countries have achieved democracy through much more civilized means.
1
Many Americans don't bother to vote because they don't care if we have a tyrannical government in the US. They are too busy trying to make ends meet to care. In the meantime, Trump rises and tries to take away all of our freedoms and information. Things are clearly better in the US than in China, but the US could be China one day if citizens don't make use of the vote. Of course, the GOP is trying to take away the vote by forcing crippling poverty on America and through blatant voter discrimination.
22
In the history of the world, has there ever been a government that hasn't become corrupt and self-serving?
4
Mr Kristof is right - we should be ashamed.
Instead of banding together to fight the egregious, daily outrages of this administration (loosening regulations on methane gases!) - our candidates and our party are mired in infighting, ensuring that Trump has a cakewalk back into the Oval Office in 2020. No, we don't need to lob tear gas back at the police here to protest - but the danger of this administration is here and now, and it will take over our future with a generations long right-wing Supreme Court, environmental devastation, civil rights abuse, gerrymandered f
voting districts, and, not as far-fetched as it seems, a Trump political dynasty with Ivanka next, if we don't act.
17
@common sense advocate
Absolutely. It’s good to be the King.
Cheers from another peasant.
1
I look at the courage of the people of Hong Kong I'm ashamed that rational Americans are not out in the streets by the millions protesting the blatant corruption of Trump and his Republican enablers. What will it take? Trump not honoring a peaceful transition of power when he loses in 2020?
"I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down."
34
@judgeroybean
Thank you! I, too, fail to understand why we are not in the streets protesting the evils and corruption that are obvious and rampant in our country. Are we completely devoid of courage and decency or just too self-involved? How can we not see that he who was "going to drain the swamp" has propagated it with more alligators and fierce creatures than anyone thought possible! Has 2016 become America's 476 AD?
Watch these protesters and learn. They appear to be laying everything on the line to save their society. We may need to do the same if 2020 turns out poorly with a trump “win”.
14
"... Trump and other world leaders should make clearer that Xi will pay a severe price if he uses force ..."
And just how do you suppose they should levy that price?
4
Stop buying EVERYTHING made or processed in mainland China. Zero waivers.
Each hack, theft of IP out of China is punished severely in a manner that sets China back on its heels.
Every intercepted fentanyl shipment out of China carries an unacceptable financial cost to the CCP. Every death carries a fine of a million $US.
DHS sweeps expel all Chinese visa violators.
Kristof is making a false equivalency here, since one thing's for sure: if the people of Hong Kong manage to preserve some measure of democracy, they won't have an Electoral College officially quashing it. In fact, they are fighting in the streets specifically to prevent something like an Electoral College. Many Americans don't vote because they know that the only votes that really count are those cast by the electors, not by citizens in general. So the author's attempt to shame Americans doesn't hold water.
5
@Livie Dear Livie: The reason we have an Electoral College is so every state in the union is represented equally and not just the 4 most populous cities in America, forever--which would be the case were it not for the EC. That would only make a democracy of clowns.
@Livie
Hong Kongers do NOT have a vote for their chef executive. he/ she was elected by 1200 "electorates" , 2/3 (?) appointed by Chinese government between a choice of 2 candidates, and the intended was made clear to these "yes-men and -women" beforehand. this is part of what the protesters are fighting for--true free election by Hong Kong citizens.
Funny. I recall there's been more people shot to death in America by law enforcement than in Hong Kong (has anyone been shot to death by police in Hong Kong ever?). For much less mundane things, nevermind trying to overthrow the government.
10
How discouraging, Everything you have written implies failure. There is no mediation, only force. World opinion has no credence and in the end, I see the people of Hong Kong losing. Kashmir is on the same path. War, war, war.
Who is strong enough to turn over a new worldwide leaf?
4
I do not doubt that China has planted people within the protesters to stir up violence, they have already imported criminals to harm peaceful protestors.
Once a people have tasted freedom they are not going to tow a dictatorships lines. Trump will not help, he wants nothing more than being a dictator.
That China controls all information in mainland China makes them no different than North Korea and anyone commenting about how the protestors are in the wrong should pack their bags and move to either China or North Korea since they think living under a dictatorship is fine.
12
Thank you Nicholas!! While statements like "I believe the violence is a mistake that increases the risk of a crackdown" (kinda of a "privileged" viewpoint, no ? .. this isn't Kansas). Hong Kong is a tipping point, what happens there, happens elsewhere. Are we manipulated chattel, or are we thinking, engaged citizens?
6
@Jplydon57:" (kinda of a "privileged" viewpoint, no ? .. this isn't Kansas). "
No, it's China and Hong Kong is part of it. Anyone not expecting Bejing to tighten its grip on Hong Kong as the years go by is deluding themselves. They should have seen this coming even amidst the celebrations and fireworks as Hong Kong celebrated its reunification with China in 1997.
But you did get to use the word "privileged" so there's that.
1
What does this have to do with any vital national American interests or values where American diplomatic, military, political socioeconomic power and influence matters?
What does this have to do with the continuing degradation, desperation and destruction of so many black Africa and brown First Nation poor lives in America?
What does this have to do with the continuing degradation, desperation and destruction of so many poor lives in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras?
What does this have to do with the continuing degradation, desperation and destruction of so many poor lives in Brazil Haiti and Sub-- Saharan Africa?
What does this have to do with the continuing degradation, desperation and destruction of so many poor lives in the American criminal ' justice' jail and prison system aka Gulag?
Too many Americans and their Presidenf like to see ' the mote in it's neugbbors eye instead of ' the beam in their own eye'.
A great entertaining condescending paternalistic judgment and distraction from domestic and foreign American problems that really hurt and matter.
4
@Blackmamba
i agree...but you left out the plight of the Palestinians who are maimed and killed by the IDF for daring to demonstrate for freedom and human rights.
1
@Blackmamba I have read many comments by you on this "unimportant issue". Indeed, it appears that, like me, you consider this issue to be important, which it is, with Hong Kong being a vital commercial and cultural link to Asia and surrounding areas.
Stones must fall on the British Empire who left these real estates without proper disposition: Kashmir natives do not want India: Hong Kong natives do not want China - there are so many fault-lines in boundaries drawn by the former Empire that it is now tearing the world apart.
China will put an iron curtain on Hong Kong soon. How sad. Can we stop this unrest by sitting down and talking. Please.
9
@TA:"Stones must fall on the British Empire who left these real estates without proper disposition: "
Please. The only "proper disposition" that would have prevented China tightening its grip on Hong Kong would be an independent Hong Kong. And that isn't going to happen.
The British Empire, right.
Wonder when will Beijing follow Modi's, or Bibi's example, about which few western pundits seem bothered? Or perhaps that's exactly what westerner politicians and yellow journalists are hoping for, another bashing spree against Beijing, at HKers expense.
Hopefully, when time comes, Beijing will minimize the impact, secure and protect only strategic assets, while leaving the rest of HK alone to go down the road like Indian reservations of the America's, with all the freedom/liberty they want and deserve.
After all, when was last time US politicians need be concerned with Reservations' well-being? Except when they need the land for pipelines, or gaming contract? If that's what HKers want, let them have it.
2
Hong Kong was transferred to China on July 1, 1997 after 156 years of British rule. Under the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, the UK agreed to transfer the colony with China guaranteeing Hong Kong’s political and economic systems for *50 years* thereafter: “one country, two systems.”
So isn’t this proposed amendment bill permitting extradition of fugitives to mainland China – the cause of these latest protests – a fundamental violation of the 1984 agreement?
Why should China be allowed to get away with it? And why is Trump abandoning the protestors and supporting communist China?
Isn’t America supposed to be about promoting democracy worldwide? If not, when did we change our foundational belief system on that?
19
@Blue Moon:"Why should China be allowed to get away with it? "
And other than criticising Trump what actions would you suggest?
There was never any realistic hope of anything approaching a democracy in China.
On the bright side of things, Hong Kong has thrown off the yoke of the British Empire, so there's that.
1
China keeps saying this is NOT 1989, and they have far more sophisticated methods for dealing with protestors.
Back in '89, few Chinese had electricity, most could never afford to buy any meat. The government said almost all Chinese are lactose intolerant, and cannot eat any dairy products. Them days is long, long, gone.
Now, just about every place has electricity, and many Chinese have A/C. A/C! And most Chinese have meat with almost every meal, kebab sellers are on every corner, and lots of pizza places, and the pizzas have real cheese.
China was the richest, most advanced nation for 90% of human history (history only goes back 5,000 years, and China was most advanced until 1422 when the Chinese Emperor discovered the Chinese version of the Amish: if Confucius didn't have it, we don't need it). Then the Manchu bribed someone to open a gate in the Great Wall and conquered China, then the Brits conquered the Manchu, and China became one of the poorest nations on earth. No more.
And yes, the US is supporting the protests in Hong Kong, so China is right about that.
And so far, China has not done anything like Tienanmen, and says it will use much more sophisticated methods to deal with the protests.
And we all hope those 'sophisticated methods' won't be anything like Tienanmen.
2
With protesters being arrested and carted to jail, do others qualify for asylum in the US? We could certainly use their commitment to democracy here.
7
A false equivalence that if it was US protests there would invariably be more shootings by police. In the US, many of those protesters would be better armed than the police.
No one in HK is carrying a gun other than the police, who have assiduously avoided using their weapons, and will continue to do so.
Even if the PLA is used, they will not resort to using live ammunition. HK is not China but rather a territory. Nor is it 30 years ago.The Basic Law calls for HK to fully return to China in 2047. There was no universal suffrage under the British, so why do they think it will happen 22 years after the handover?
I wish Americans knew just a bit about HK and its past. Kristoff makes one passing comment that the mainland government uses US flag waving as a sign of their "black hand" and the Consulate scores no points for visibly meeting with activists.
HK has never been a full fledged democracy. They should absolutely push for more than but should have done so decades ago.
8
Hopefully the Chinese state will come down to its root fairly soon and we all can start planning for what should have happened after 1989, containment of evil kingdom.
Chinese officials won't stop at sending bullets flying through Kowloon, soon this model will be exported globally including USA.
3
@Max: At one time I took an active roll in Cold War V1.0.
Sounds like you're resurecting the "Red Menace" argument. And no, "Red" does not refer to anyone's skin color, ethnicity or race.
1
Well, at least they are innovative. Necessity is the mother of invention.
3
@Bill, I wish Americans could be so patriotic and willing to fight for our values, against trump's outrages. At least they are innovative?? As their blood spills and they're dragged off to disappear forever, try to be a little less shallow. These people are incredibly brave; I hope to be so patriotic, like our forefathers stood up to the British back in the day. Innovation and necessity indeed, Bill. How about sacrifice and commitment to Democracy?
15
@deb The Brits handed over Hong Kong to the Chinese, the results are as expected. Honestly, how do you expect this is going to end? The Chinese are not going allow Hong Kong to have self determination, or to secede and the end result here is entirely predictable. Tienanmen Square is their model. China continues to swallow their neighboring countries whole, just ask the Tibetans how they feel. They just made man-made islands in the South Chinese Sea to the detriment of other sovereign nations in the area. Unfortunately with all their military might, a propaganda fed military and a reasonably small island, the results are foretold and it won't be pretty and many will die. Frankly, they don't care. Taiwan should be quaking in their boots at this point. I feel sorry for the protesters, but in this instance, all your outrage will not change anything. I'm all for Democracy, but in that part of the world, it is fleeting and short lived. Now as far as my comment goes, they are in fact innovative. So inhale and exhale and be glad you don't live in that part of the world.
6
@Bill, welp, you've got it all sewn up. No need for these pesky protesters to keep protesting; they should all just go home, cuz totalitarian behavior is just meh, and it's a waste of time. Again, that's exactly the way many thought of the American colonies, in 'that part of the world'.
You say: "I'm all for Democracy, but in that part of the world, it is fleeting and short lived." Not too long ago, America would be warning China that it's anti-Democratic Communist approach was being watched and judged. We would be the Avengers, if you will, making sure the villian doesn't just wipe out a city to quell dissent. Maybe that helps.
I used to feel lucky I lived in the U.S.A. where things like totalitarian leaders weren't possible because no party would put one man's ego in front of our democracy, right? Now comes trump and he's gonna just pardon any of HIS employees who breaks the law by seizing private land in America for his State-run personal vendetta of WALL.
It's possible, Bill, that American protesters, furious that trump cheats every which way during the 2020 election to crown himself again, will take to the streets. I'll be among them, inhaling and exhaling, while you cheer for the tear gas and sigh that you're 'all for Democracy, but it's fleeting and short lived'.
And the US is not supporting Hong Kong openly. What a failure of moral, political and diplomatic leadership.
This looks bad. Every authoritarian regime in the world will do a Crimea from now on. 2020 cannot come too soon.
29
@Ard. I assume you mean when Obama let the Russians have the Crimea. And how did Hillary’s Arab Spring work out?
@Ard:"And the US is not supporting Hong Kong openly."
Supporting it openly?
Let's put pin in your post and revisit it when and if a Democrat occupies the White House. Maybe we'll take action against them by agreeing to the TPP. That's teach 'em.
I would bet that the Chinese government
works diligently at identifying and then arresting
the leaders of the movement who will then disappear
into the Chinese Gulag.
Meanwhile economic pressure will be placed on those
who protests and their admission to universities will
be revoked.
12
I appreciate your point, but this isn't going to end well. Western style street demonstrations don't work in the Chinese system. I think they need a different strategy.
5
@Michael Livingston’s
I think the point here was that this style demonstration would ply out a lot worse in the good old USA. There would be many more incarcerated and more than a few dead... if such a protest were to take place here. Our voting rights for president are basically nonexistent given the mechanisms of the electoral college and the latest ruling that the elector can vote however s/he pleases.
PS I don't quite understand what is going on... and democracy frankly needs a lot more discussion... esp. in a system where economic disparities are increasing daily. I equate democracy with a decent life for all... not large gaps between rich and poor. Political democracy is supposed to foster economic democracy... and today we have the article about how the rich get ever so much richer -- always stealing from the poor.
10
"Police Infiltrate Radical Protest Groups To Stop Antiglobalization Demonstrations" was the headline of an article that says that most of the violence committed in Seattle by "protesters" was actually committed by police dressed as protesters.
That article was in the Wall Street Journal.
(Notice Trump supporters, that the Left has been protesting against sending our jobs to foreign countries for decades while the Right demanded OPEN BORDERS for global corporations exporting jobs.)
As one of the original organizers of Occupy Wall Street, I have advice for Hong Kong protesters:
Reject anyone that commits, or calls for violence. Governments do not fear violence from protesters. They use it to their advantage. The media focuses on it, distracting from the real message, and then the government uses the fear in the public generated by images of violence to justify far worse violence from the government. They consider every rock thrown as justification for worse police violence. Even when no protester commits violence, but the police attack, they media says "protests turned violent today..."
People that protest for Justice, peace, and democracy are rarely violent. 2/3 of Hong Kong have been protesting for months and the violence has been very limited.
Most likely, those that throw things at police are working for China.
Make clear in your meetings that you only use creative, peaceful tactics, and that real protesters should point and yell "police" at those doing the opposite.
38
@McGloin
"People that protest for Justice, peace, and democracy are rarely violent..." But are themselves often martyred.
Agreed however.
Sometimes an MLK needs a Malcom X; a Ghandi needs a Bhagat Singh. Without a possible escalation, would peaceful protest get traction?
Sometimes in history, might needs to be met with might.
At a certain point, desperation breeds desperate acts. You can only kick a dog so often before it will try and bite back.
Thus a colonial revolt or an antifa.
Thanks for your work with OWS and your comments here.
4
@McGloin As you are an original organizer of Occupy, I'd be interested to know what you believe it accomplished now that there is some time gone by?
Thank you for this informative piece. I don’t think anything Trump would say in support of the protesters in Hong Kong would help the situation. He isn’t subtle, as we all know, and a taunting, inflammatory tweet aimed at Chairman Xi would only encourage him to intensify his efforts to suppress the demonstrations. Oh, how I wish we can survive until the 2020 election. It seems like an eternity away, too much time for Trump to destroy our economy and what’s left of American influence in world affairs.
12
@Mary Beth,
"It seems like an eternity away, too much time for Trump to destroy our economy and what’s left of American influence in world affairs."
You're worried about "our economy"? What about "our democracy"? America is on a quick-march towards authoritarianism. It isn't clear that Mr. Trump will leave office peacefully if he isn't re-elected; the steady progress towards vote suppression and gerrymandering is being met with little resistance, save that of Stacy Abrams and her allies. Mrs. Pelosi and the Republicans studiously avoid doing the very thing necessary to assure the rule of law and the sustenance of democracy in America.
Uh huh. The economy is really the biggest concern in the USA right now.
5
"In fairness, mainlanders do make one valid point: If protesters in America were throwing Molotov cocktails at police officers, the United States might well have seen more than the single warning shot fired by the police so far in Hong Kong."
What is the population of Hong Kong? I hear it is about 7.4 million persons.
How many persons have been reported weekly to participate in the protests? I hear it is about 1 million persons.
So let's say it is about 1/8 of the population showing up to protest. if 1/8 of the USA's population showed up for protest even once, then any sensible U.S. government had better realize it made some serious mistakes and needs to change course. The Hong Kongers have been doing that every weekend for at least 6 weeks now. I shudder to imagine the repressive moves Mr. Xi will make to save face.
The Hong Kongers claim to be willing to die for their cause, even if they appear unwilling to kill for it. Is Mr. Xi really willing to test the firmness of the protesters' conviction? I suspect (hope, really!) the Chinese government will not be able to treat Hong Kong as another Tiananmen Square. They should never be able to suppress news and information about this case, no matter what they try.
14
"... Trump and other world leaders should make clearer that Xi will pay a severe price if he uses force — whether by troops or by triads — to try to crush Hong Kong."
And what are the chances that our president, who fawns over authoritarian leaders while constantly challenging our oldest and strongest allies, will do anything of the sort?
Xi certainly understands the current dynamic; it is no wonder he feels overconfident. He has all the tools of authoritarianism at his disposal to crush the protests at his leisure, and the country that has traditionally made the world "safe for democracy" is instead ruled by a failed businessman whose primary concerns are "winning" - winning a foolish trade war, and winning reelection - using any means necessary.
Human rights? Based on what we see at our own southern border, nothing could be further from his mind.
22
This hurts my bleeding heart. These (mostly) young people are literally risking their lives. Don Quixote, Chinese Translation.
I admire them greatly, but am afraid for them. And we sit in our homes and become more comfortably numb, daily.
God, I miss Obama.
37
@Phyliss Dalmatian
I agree that we sit in our homes, but are we becoming more "comfortably numb" or merely complacent or nonchalant in wanting to become actively engaged in anything past our front door or driveway?
2
Even you protest Hong Kong still is another Chinese city. Unless the people in the free world can overthrow the Communist regime there will be no freedoms in China. That was why I left China shortly after Beijing was "liberated." I went to Hong Kong and continue to the U.S. A country with real democracy and freedom. That's why I am still here enjoy my retirement alone. Hong Kong will not be free Hong Kong anymore. Sad.
6
I lived and worked in Hong Kong from 1993 until end of 2004.
Until the return of Hong Kong to China it was ruled by one man, the Governor. Rule of Law, if you have money, but NO Universal suffrage. Limited Local Elections. The Brits of whom I am one had more than 100 years to grant independence. Or if that were impossible to provide full British Passports. No way, could not risk infusion of 7 million very hard working Cantos into UK. Enough, move on.
20
@Ben Beaumont
But they left the language with its implications, that's what the protesters have bought Universal appeal -- light on content as the USA is now well discovering.
@Ben Beaumont ... During the colonial period Hong Kong enjoyed the best of all governance, the gossamer touch of a benevolent power. Enterprising citizens of the colony were free to develop the financial sector and the tourist base that made the city prosperous.
During several short stays and business trips to the Colony, I was struck by the unobtrusiveness, near invisiblity, of police and colonial power. Basically, the citizens governed themselves, as individuals.
Pity the peace and prosperity of the colonial period did not condition Hong Kong citizens for the eventual responsibility of self-government! Now they are destroying their own city!
@Ben Beaumont,
Who are you saying should 'move on'?
I only felt self-sacrifice for a much higher cause a few times in my life - refusing to serve in the Army during the ignoble Vietnam war, the Civil Rights movement in the 60s, and trying to gain justice for people I thought were wrongfully arrested and prosecuted for felonies. I can identify with the HK protesters. I urge them to be non-violent. They must not lose their international support by using violent tactics. That support will protect them from a lurking great harm.
43
@Jake
Most likely the violence is being committed by Chinese government infiltrators.
If someone in a peaceful protest breaks things or commits violence, the best thing is for everyone else to point at them at yell "police."
I have experience in peaceful protests, and anytime someone suggest violence to me, I assume they are from the FBI.
Governments don't fear violence. Violence is how governments were born. Governments fear love and peaceful cooperation among citizens.
13
For twenty years, the CCP has persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed 100 million Chinese people. Their only offense was to practice the principles of ‘truthfulness, compassion and tolerance’ along with tai-chi-like exercises in private and in public places or parks. Its popularity was an implicit threat to the influence of the Communist Party. Some of these people were monetized by China’s security institutions that forcibly removed their organs for sale in the illicit organ transplant market. The organ recipients were Chinese government officials and the wealthy, as well as organ transplant medical tourists from abroad. It is ongoing today.
So, in China’s case, what you say is accurate and relevant to Hong Kong’s protest against authoritarian excesses.
8
@Jake
Protect them from great harm? Really?
Civilians spilt paint, the authority's have already split skulls and spilt blood.
Peaceful tactics didn't stop the slaughter at Tiananmen Square.
Union Coal Miners suffered (died) for decades. It wasn't until they fought back that change happened.
When one kicks a dog often enough, they are going to get bit.
When authority doesn't care about appearances and nobody is going to stop them...do they care?
Heck, America rewards those with bloody duffle bags and bone saws.
1
There are no signs yet that the only public official representing all of the US will ever be elected by direct popular vote. Government is ossified everywhere.
20
@Steve Bolger. The topic is Hong Kong.
Protest movements often appear when the will of the majority is thwarted. In Hong Kong the protesters are experiencing an erosion of their political rights by a government that does not respect their wishes. They took to the streets because there seemed no alternative.
If the majority will of the American people is thwarted by gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the Electoral College in 2020, we may feel the same sense of eroding political rights. Will we feel the same lack of alternatives?
68
@David Potenziani
Trump keeps talking about "16 years" in office, without ever mentioning amending Constitutional term limits, and told the Premier Xi that "president for life" is just like "king."
Trump's personal fixer (a mafia term for those that cover up crimes), told Congress under oath, he was afraid Trump would not leave office voluntarily.
If Trump were to leave office in 2021, Mueller said he could be indicted for numerous counts of Obstruction of Justice. (The qualification he added the next day did not contradict that basic statement.)
Those who are waiting until 2020 might be waiting for an election that never comes. Trump could say the Russians are hacking our elections (his habitual blatant hypocrisy would again paralyze the media) then abuse emergency powers (the wall is just an excuse to test them) to suspend elections and the Constitution. That is how banana Republics are born.
We need tens of millions of peaceful protesters on the street now. Our democratic Constitutional Republic is under direct threat from the Party of Trump, which has spent fifty years calling Our government their "enemy."
If we let the Party of Trump replace Congressional Oversight, with their "unitary executive" which was used by the Bush administration to claim that they could ignore U.S law to order torture, then Trump could become "president for life."
"Attorney General" Barr who thinks he is Trump's Roy Cohn, supports the "unitary executive" and lied about Trumps felonies.
2
Let me start off by saying I don't condemn violence.
In widespread social unrest and political movements like this, there are many perspectives and sides to all this. We all choose to take a side, whether we do that consciously or not. The Chinese government has of course, condemned the protests as 'violent riots', and the western world has shown the protests as a 'fight for democracy'.
I don't agree with either of those statements. Of course, I lean more towards the western world, as seen by me writing this comment on an opinion piece from a western newspaper. But I do think that the violence in Hong Kong has got to stop. Yes, I want democracy and civil rights, but not at the cost of human life. We all know this movement can end one of two ways. Xi sending in the troops, tiananmen 2.0, or Xi putting an end to the movement by instantly absorbing Hong Kong into China, with tight surveillance.
The violence will only encourage the CCP to put an end to things. Because we all know they won't allow democracy or anything of the sorts on Chinese soil. The only good solution I could see, is the international community and China sitting down for a negotiation before it's too late. Diplomacy is the only way to fix this whole mess.
10
Rights are never given, they are fought for, paid for with blood. The fight for Democracy and rights never dies. Even in in China itself it still smolders on waiting for the next opportunity.
9
@Laura
When I am involved in organizing a protest and someone suggests violence, I assume they are provocateurs trying to get us to undermine our own movement.
At the Seattle protests against the WTO, police dressed in black with masks and broke windows, then used that as an excuse to attack and arrest peaceful protesters. This is far more common than corporate media lets on, but this story was even covered by the Wall Street Journal.
Modern protests are open and democratic, which is a powerful way of getting thousands of people to cooperate, but which is very open to infiltration and by those opposed to the movement who want to undermine it.
Governments don't fear violence. Violence is what governments do. And the media focuses on violence instead of the message of the movement.
If you are at a protest and someone breaks things or commits violence, move away, point at them, and yell "police." That isolates the violent and shows that the movement is against them, not with them.
By the way, the guy with the tennis racket is not engaged in violence, but obvious defense, sending police violence back where it came from.
The power of democracy movements is in creativity, not violence. Use creative means to embarrass the 1% in front of the 99%, to win.
3
Do you mean “I don’t condone violence” in your first line? My interpretation is that you do condemn violence as a mean to resolving this conflict.
And a very good lob.
7
The comparison to America is striking.
If many Americans are violently opposed to Trump, why are they not out in the streets demonstrating?
We know America is divided about Trump. Where is the energy to fight back.
Is defeating Trump a lost cause?
33
@Michael Kittle: A majority of Americans believe that government will be of, by, and for the rich, whatever window-dressing it wears.
22
Right now the majority of Trump opponents believe he can be defeated at the ballot box next year. All bets are off if that doesn’t happen. In HK, suffrage is so limited that the people of Hong Kong can never elect a legislature or executive who does not toe the Beijing line. Hence, their only recourse is the streets.
48
The comparison you are attempting to stoke is much further from the truth, and equivalent to the distance from Hong Kong to NYC, especially if pundits like Kristof and other progressives repeatedly are saying how violent the US is with the more than 300 million firearms owned by civilians. So what is the actual reality with this many firearms in the US? It would be safe to say that firearms are mostly owned by rational, non-violent people despite what the media’s rhetoric about gun violence in the US.
Protests against President Trump are few and far between and by comparison to Hong Kong, protests in the US often seem more of a social gathering, achieving only media attention with little else to show.
So in Hong Kong, is being jailed or beaten to death for a false reality a rational decision?
Perhaps to some it is, but will the majority of people realize it isn’t?
Are the demonstrators caught in an oxymoronic bind ? To establish law and order by breaking the law and destroying the order ? HK is not a foreign country ; it’s part of China. Therefore any attempt to go a separate way cannot happen. However it’s a unique crisis in that no one is blameless. Why are the obvious socio-economic conditions are what they are in HK ? Its free market capitalism is working against the people, especially the young. Why is the government so out of touch with a big section of the population.
8
The capitalism ran amok has been going on for decades. Yet, the youths of HK, including the current generation, never spent the time and efforts like they have with the Occupy Movement and today’s Extradition Bill Protest, to press any changes.
Can you imagine what will happen if 3 million people protest against inadequate housing for 12 weeks?
6
China broke the deal. Over that beat you can whistle any tune you want, including a Marxist one. But the song is the same
As usual, I'm greatful for Nicholas Kristof's courage in helping us understand what's really going on, where it could be headed, and why.
I've always thought co-existence treaties between populous dictatorships and smaller democracies are doomed to fail eventually because authoritarianism and democracy can't co-exist. How will the world respond?
Since the protests first started, Trump has been restrained, spouting pro-Democracy bromides on cue. But like Teleprompter Trump, his natural authoritarian instincts always rise to the fore and now he calls protesters riots.
In many ways, Donald Trump is between a rock and hard place. He wants a trade deal, to bring China to heel, but the protests are hideouly inconvenient. With any other leader, the US would be leading the way to support human rights.
But with Trump--who knows?
83
@ChristineMcM
Trump does not want a trade deal to bring China to heel. He wants a trade deal of any kind so that he can claim to have brought China to heel. With Trump, nothing is real. For him it is all optics and lies where image is everything and all that matters are votes.
10
Trump doesn’t care. Not about anyone else.
1
@ChristineMcM NK is prejudiced against the Chinese people. He wants to encourage chaos. Why not report on the all the god things happening to the 1.4 billion Chinese who have a great government and leadership. Because you elected Donald Trump you guys have got sour grapes. America is in decline and China is rising. Get used to it.
Mr. Kristof, I am a long time fans of yours. I greatly respect and admire the courage with which you take up the issues that go otherwise relegated to the back pages, if at all reported.
Would you please also draw world's attention to what is happening in Indian controlled Kashmir, right now?
Thank you.
60
@S. Zafar Iqbal
I have friends in Kashmir and have not heard anything from them for weeks now. They still don’t have access to internet and phones. The population could as well have been slaughtered that we would not know.
1
@S. Zafar Iqbal He believes that India is a democracy so everything they do is OK. I will tell you that China is a democracy. The Communist Party has a bigger membership than the Democrats and the Republicans combined. They have skilled and intelligent people running the show. In America we have failed businessmen and elected nincompoops who still believe the earth was made in 7 days .... really!
1
I am confused at a visceral level. I don’t understand how the protesters are getting away with what they’re doing. It really seems aimless and just like borrowed time. What is the Chinese leadership going to do? Surrender? It seems like someone has to mediate and negotiate. Whom do both sides trust? Macron? Lol. It seems like that’s the issue: Xi won’t play ball. It’s not in the cards. Am I wrong?
16
@Richard You're not wrong. If American protesters were doing what these Hong Kong protesters are doing, they would be shot dead. Kids were killed at Kent State for doing much less. If anything, China has been very lenient, and the media's vilification of China has been completely disingenuous.
2
As an Oregonian, and an American, and a supporter of global solidarity and courageous, creative, nonviolent resistance to oppressive power and domination, thank you for being in Hong Kong and posting this update. Thank you. We're proud of you back home.
79
@Betsy. It’s amusing when the Left Coast uses a meaningless phrase like global solidarity. Please explain how you support that. And why do you call this nonviolent resistance when clearly it is violent?
1
Thank you, Nick. Your writing from Hong Kong is giving us insights and perspectives that we are not getting anywhere else.
By the way, some of us might be planning to visit Hong Kong, e.g., for business or for tourism. In your view, should we still come?
17
@Robert I was in Hong Kong recently. When there was no violent protests, it was nice and my wife and I had a great time.
I didn't notice any real rights being suppressed while I was there. As far as I know, there are the basic freedoms like anywhere else: right to free speech, right to peaceful assembly, etc. etc... there was social media and press freedoms.
Recently the protesters took it upon themselves to "arrest" a couple of tourists and beat one to unconsciousness, then proceeded to not allow emergency services/ambulances to take the guy to the hospital. Its soooo wrong.
I'd wait until Law and Order is re-established in Hong Kong. Right now its the riot law prevailing. Imho, the police are handling the violent protesters much too gently and are enabling this type of radical behavior.
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@James
Thank you for your reply. Based on the reporting here in this paper, your comment sounds an awful lot like mainland propaganda, right down to your emphasis on law and order instead of on democracy. Yes, Hong Kong does have free speech, the right to peaceful assembly, a free press. You claim, however, that Hong Kong has these rights "like anywhere else." That is a bizarre assertion, given the context. The "anywhere else that I am thinking about--just across the border--does not have any of them. I did read about one case in which the protestors detained a representative of the PRC government who was pretending to be a protestor. In that case the protestors themselves apologized the very next day.
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What if we organize rallies at the grass root level here in the USA, the world, and charter flights to HK to lock arms with the protesters? Mr. Kristof and similar journalists in other parts of the world be our de facto leaders.
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@Washandia
What a good, kind thought for rallies in our streets but please don't go to HK. You would be providing fodder to fuel the Chinese propaganda that the West is behind all of it.
...But I certainly do believe that this President and Congress should be offering support for these mainly peaceful protests. Our businesses operating there should also be making their voices heard.
I really admire these brave people for caring so much for what is right and for persevering in the face of long odds.
I know I can't do much but bring up the subject with friends when I say "how I wish we were marching in our streets like those in HK" to protest the most corrupt and incompetent administration in history.
In my own little note of protest, today, I bought a chain saw and refused to buy the one made in China though it was $50 less. We need to tie trade to human rights and that includes countries that allow oppressive religions.
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What you suggested will be a disaster. Our government had sent the wrong messages to other countries one too many times. Do you want to create another Syria?
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Theatrics and reality have hard battles when ‘the forces are up.’
Hong Kong has reached that point where protestors ‘are willing to die’ according to a recent Times article for the cause. They look to the western world to see their struggle and exert pressure on China (especially America for some reason).
China has been there before – hundred years of humiliation theme lingers on – to try and shame China is a no-go for any foreign leaders wise enough to so move – save ours.
Kristof’s suggestion a poor one.
Kan has stated willingness to meet and discuss; protesters need to be so inclined and find ‘representatives’,
But in Tiananmen days representatives insulted Li Peng and refused to shake his offered hand; a missed opportunity (?) they were never to find out. Ah Youth rich theater.
@wsmrer
"To shame China" is very simple ...
Just look at how it conducts itself, its system of "justice".
Many HK youngsters know PRC all too well to feel "patriotic". They are in the struggle for the same reason many Taiwanese are, for their own futures, a future not determined by Xi and his CCP.
It is to China's great shame that it cannot countenance self-determination for people who just happen to be ethnically Han, speak some form of Chinese. It is tantamount to a bunch of Anglo-Celts somewhere (London, NY, Sydney) declaring that all Anglo-Celts everywhere must "live under one roof".
Such nonsense, and from a such potentially important power. No longer is respect earned by despotism, however.
“If we didn’t protest, this might become just another Chinese city..." Hong Kong is a casualty in Trump's trade war. When the Chinese economy was attacked and it became evident that Trump's aggression was not about trade, but about destroying China's progress in lifting its citizens and much of Eurasia and Africa out of poverty, Hong Kong became a symbol of Western colonization and racism.
October 1 is the 70th Anniversary of Communist China and its theme will be unity against Western aggression and meddling in Asian internal affairs. Hong Kong with its "two systems" program was free to interact with Western commerce and ideas. Now, they are a harsh example of the chaos inherent with Western "democracy disease". That both the U.S. and Britain are both dysfunctional democracies further hammers home the point of the need for Chinese nationalism.
Amid the fireworks and flags, President Xi will call for unity and declare martial law in Hong Kong and an end to the failed "two systems". From that day forward, Hong Kong will learn to speak Mandarin, drive on the right side of the road, and have judges not wearing 17th-century horsehair wigs and they will finally become "just another Chinese city".
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@JohnH
Don't lump the USA and the UK together, as you obviously don't know that their two completely different types of Democracies.
Ours is quite functional. Trump will be gone in 17 months time
With respect to Mr Kristoff, he appears to underestimate the threat to the security of the population of HK as a whole and its standing in the international business community. The pro-violence faction (whether they are for independence of some kind or just punks thriving off excitement), they need to be reigned in, even arrested to prevent the inevitable death and consequent retaliation.
The fact that tens of thousands protest peacefully and are supported by even more, is the surest way to make sure that the freedoms that HK people enjoy cannot be eroded by decree of a government in Beijing or in Hong Kong. Twenty-five y.o. students can speak easily of death all they want, but something different transpires when police fire real bullets.
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"If protesters in America were throwing Molotov cocktails at police officers, the United States might well have seen more than the single warning shot fired by the police so far in Hong Kong."
I disagree that China makes a point with this statement. Hong Kong is very different from the US. The reason for most US protests, as of late, is racism, obviously not a factor in HK protests. They are fighting for the greater good for all.
America could learn something from their willingness to do this leaderless.
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I recall a student protest at Kent State University in Ohio where the US army fired into students protestors. The US Army.
@Teresa
Americans do late night satire and call it protest.
Enough said.
You've summed all this up beautifully. Thank you once again for getting out there and being on the ground, and continuing to do what you do best, sir. Take this thanks for a Hongkonger who is safe in the US, but is feeling proud of his birthplace for the first time in 19 years.
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@Nicholas Wong
Citizens around the world should be proud of Hong Kong and support them ! HongKongers give me hope that humans will keep fighting for democracy as we face a global rise of authoritarian rule. Democracies everywhere need to be on watch fighting for their fundamental rights.
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@Nicholas Wong It is amazing to me that the number of free individuals commenting is almost outnumbered by the paid to comment CCP supporters.
I know they are paid to comment, because no one who has tasted democracy would want the oppressive, suffocating, stultifying, surveillance state of totalitarian China.
Only the paid to comment, and the indoctrinated would come down on the side of China, or create false equivalencies.
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Hong Kong is at risk because the distrust between the mainland and Hong Kong has never been dealt with and been exacerbated by economic forces beyond the control of the HK government and people. Beijing doesn't understand how to speak to HK people. HK people and especially, the pan democrats, do not understand how to communicate with Beijing. There is no discussion, just accusations, no compromise from either side. Just a lot of conspiracy theories and a unwillingness to condemn and disavow violence on the part of the protesters. No one has yet died because of the violence, although several have been severely injured on both sides...it's time for people with a conscience to tell everyone to stop fighting and start talking. Contrary to all the nonsense on media, it's HK'ers fighting HK'ers...in a once peaceful city that hasn't this level of violence since 1967 and never was it so widespread.
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@Chris It is not Hongkongers fighting Hongkongers.
It is HongKongers fighting for their freedom. Their right to free speech. And hoping for a right to vote.
This is how revolutions start in History. Maybe they prevail. Maybe they dont. But the most inspiring wonderful thing about mankind are those incredibly brave souls who put their lives on the line for freedom.
The paid to comment CCP must surely have a tiny twinge of respect. For they get to read the free press.
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@Chris, well said. Let peace return. Hong Kong people who love Hong Kong must muster the courage to speak like you. Those who want to persist are questionable in their pursuits. Do they really love Hong Kong
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@Chris Thanks for reading my column, and disagreement is always welcome. I agree with you about the distrust and the lack of communication, and the reluctance to compromise (or even talk). But the protesters note that the government doesn't listen and doesn't have a mechanism to listen, because it blocks democrats from Legco; the only tool they have, they say, is these protests. I also disagree that this is fundamentally about Hong Kongers fighting Hong Kongers. Polls suggest overwhelming support for the protesters. And walking around, I see that, too. Last night during the clashes, residents were shouting curses and insults at the police whenever they would show up. Obviously there's no unanimity in any society, but every indication is that the HK public mostly supports the protests, and that they are opposed by Beijing and by Beijing's puppet government in Hong Kong.That doesn't obviate the need for communication, as you say, but it does frame it differently.
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This is all so heartbreaking. Everyone feels they are right and the fear of losing their power could cause losing their life. Everyone needs to get relaxed in this movement and start praying. Prayer is proven to work and so this is the time for all of us to participate. We need the power of love over the love of power. Peace and turtle slow down to all.
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This will be an epic clash. China can’t give in as that would validate Taiwan’s aspirations. Xi has learned to apply slow pressure so it will be a test of the HK populace’s common will, which seems formidable. This will be a multi-round fight. The USA should stand aside willing to work with both, maintaining its (feeble) moral hi-ground. This will probably end badly for HK as the leaders who emerge are taken out one-by-one by Xi. The rebels should stop and then regroup and take them by surprise. In a direct confrontation they will lose without a lot of blood being shed.
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@Ed Strosser
The US should not stand aside. It should send in the CIA. SUpport the HongKongers. The CIA did so much more for much much smaller non-threats. Now here democracy itself is on the line if totalitarian China just spreads its tentacles through soft power.
HKers, many of us think you are inspirational.