What makes many men and women afraid is irrational group think. Men are now being very caution around unfamiliar women. The reason is simple: we allow unfounded accusations to ruin lives without due process. There is a reason these principles formed the foundation of our legal system. These principles don’t erase the fact that many male abusers do go un punished. We need to work to find solutions to these problems following these principles not ignoring them.
1
She should have looked to her own house when this happened:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/us/politics/kirsten-gillibrand-sexual-harassment.html
I did not listen to Senator Gillibrand's defense, but I did review extensive investigations from highly regarded investigative reporters who had no dog in this fight. They concluded that Gillibrand led the charge to have Franken resign without conducting thorough due diligence. Gillibrand is a lawyer and presumably has at least passing familirity with the term "due process." As a result, Schumer forced Franken to resign by 5;00 instead of allowing the normal investigative process to play out. Almost all of Gillibrand's campaign was about protecting the rights of women. I don't know anybody over 18 who belives that is the way to win back the White House. Just because her mother and grandmother were powerful politicos in Albany, hardly means she is qualified for the highest office in the land. She is lucky even to be in the Senate.
1
This was difficult to listen to - a person so certain she was right. She brought up the subject of rape to explain her decision. She didn’t want to hear the circumstances behind the photograph or that this accuser had been inconsistent. The Senate lost a good man because of her misplaced zeal to condemn him and she will be remembered for this.
5
This was a shameful episode is the daily. From the premise of the show to the tag line to the tone deaf questioning by host. I was shocked to hear the victim blaming and mysogny. Everyone at the daily owes Kirsten Gillibrand and all of us an apology, at the very least.
2
I couldn't be more thrilled or proud of Senator Gillibrand than I was listening to this podcast. I've been vaguely aware of her and her stance but this?! Everything. I heart Michael B. but I actually started disliking him and his line of questioning. Her answers and point-of-view reflected my own and the women I know (we do live in a patriarchy after all...). It was like talking to any one of my friends. As a filmmaker, I appreciated the editing that gave us her voice and opinion in a way that mattered.
4
I couldn't be more thrilled or proud of Senator Gillibrand than I was listening to this podcast. I've been vaguely aware of her and her stance but this?! Everything. I heart Michael B. but I actually started disliking him and his line of questioning. Her answers and point-of-view reflected my own and the women I know (we do live in a patriarchy after all...). It was like talking to any one of my friends. As a filmmaker, I appreciated the editing that gave us her voice and opinion in a way that mattered.
“Survivors”? Gillibrand stands with the “survivors” of Senator Franken? Should the woman who said he gripped her waist too firmly be defined as a “survivor”? Gillibrand’s hyperbolic and ridiculous use of that key word puts the entire conversation in context.
She should woman up and apologize.
13
Senator Gilibrand is not being in reality over this matter. But for her overzealous and unjust hounding (out of office) of Senator Franken, she would be atop the the presidential contenders today; she seems to ignore the justified anger of progressive against her. Sen. Franken wanted a Senate's ethics investigation but Gilibrand and her gang denied him of that chance by requesting his immediate resignation. Ironically, when an allegation of that sort occurred in her office, she held an investigation. Today, one has to be dishonest to not accept that an investigation would have exonerated Senator Franken -- almost all of his accusers have so far been proved to have lied or distorted what occurred.
Senator Gilibrand has to do the right thing; she must rescind the unjust role she played in denying progressives of the services of an unapologetic progressive in Senator Franken. Regrettably, she is still repeating the claims that have been shown to not have happened as claimed.
12
If Kirsten Gillibrand is in fact so concerned about abusive behavior, why did she say nothing in support of those staffers who came forward with reports of abuse by Senator Klobuchar? Gillibrand said nothing about Klobuchar because she is not really concerned about abuse of the less powerful: She is only concerned with her own advancement, and she mistakenly thought going after Franken would earn her that advancement. It backfired badly, because Americans, even those of us who feel strongly about accountability and repercussions for those who perpetrate abuse, also feel just as strongly that due process is essential for any case involving serious accusations of abuse. Gillibrand is not someone we would ever want as President in a country where due process and innocence until proof of guilt are cornerstones of our national character.
10
@Tintin Not to mention the allegations among her own staff. One staffer quit because of the way her allegation was handled under Gillibrand.
Gillibrand isn't the only one doing this . It's become commonplace in our hyper sensitive world. Witnessing the self righteous destruction of lives over such mundane behavior makes me want to take a shower. Just disgusting.
3
She is a great opportunist. Her putrid showing in the primary is her just reward. She helped railroad AF and should get off her high horse for a minute.
8
Thank you NYT The Daily. I had been inclined to support Senator Gillibrand in her presidential race. No more. Her stance on Franken and her responses during the NYT interview represents everything I deplore about some Democratic candidates. We can do better than this.
17
@Raymond Holt
We can certainly argue the merits of whether Franken deserved to be ousted.
But Gillibrand, while she grabbed for the spotlight and ran Franken off without the Ethics investigation he requested, was happy to share her campaign stage with an accused rapist. She’s a hypocrite and opportunist.
She also worked hard for Big Tobacco, helping them lie to us about cancer and cigarettes.
Further, she was pro-gun when that was politically convenient, and then became anti-gun when THAT became politically convenient.
I don’t trust one word she says.
11
I think the Daily has lost me as a listener after this episode. I have listened to this podcast almost every morning for the last year, but multiple episodes have thoroughly disappointed me and I think this one was the last straw. First the interview with Rashida Tlaib was hard to listen to, and with this one I couldn’t even finish it. In both episodes Michael comes across as tone-deaf. The loudest voice in the episodes is being given to those that do harm. Be better Michael.
11
I think the Daily has lost me as a listener after this episode. I have listened to this podcast almost every morning for the last year, but multiple episodes have thoroughly disappointed me and I think this one was the last straw. First the interview with Rashida Tlaib was hard to listen to, and with this one I couldn’t even finish it. In both episodes Michael comes across as tone-deaf. The loudest voice in the episodes is being given to those that do harm. Be better Michael.
This was a solid interview and Kristen Gillibrand looked terrible. First she called for investigations in the cape of rape (or car theft), then she said Al Franken's decision to step down was his alone without taking any responsibility for her role in the pressure campaign to oust him. She's a snake and deserves her low single-digit polling numbers.
27
@Steve
Plus, even though she grabbed for the spotlight over Franken, she was happy to share her campaign stage with a guy accused of rape, and other far worse offenses than Franken.
3
This is the biggest reason Kirsten Gillibrand is tanking in the polls. There is a difference between sexual abuse and assault on the one hand, and comfort-disturbing behavior on the other. Gillibrand is the type of person that, when walking down a sidewalk, deliberately steps in every piece of gum so she can make an issue of it.
I am 100% behind #metoo. I am not in favor of destroying a person based on thin gruel in a mad dash for the political spotlight.
A good, solidly electable senator (Al Franken) was destroyed. Another senator (Gillibrand) has attached such rancor to her name that she may well one day soon lose her seat to a Republican.
32
I listened to this on my commute in, and I could just feel my blood pressure skyrocketing. Here's what I heard Gillibrand say: "It was his decision." (thus she NEVER takes any responsibility for anything that happens in the story) "He needs to say he's sorry." (He did!!) "His own words convinced me he was guilty." (here she's talking about his apology - the one she wants to hear from him).
Ultimately, what infuriates me about Gillibrand is that she is incapable of seeing grey in this case. She comes off as certain that she is morally superior to everyone else. Her final line, "It's hard to do the right thing" was ABSURD! She's not doing the right thing. The right thing would have been to allow due process. The right thing wouldn't have been to pressure Frankin out with threats that he would lose his committeeships and funding. The moral righteousness from her is nauseating, and she's never going to get it. She's right. Everyone else is wrong, and she's incapable of seeing any nuance in this situation at all. It's just gross. So gross.
33
@Jason. Bravo!
2
Gillibrand did her grandstanding bit to run Franken out of the senate without the Ethics Investigation he requested. We can have a debate about whether he should have resigned or not, but he deserved an opportunity to have the investigation.
Hypocrite Gillibrand, remember, was happy to share her campaign stage with Bill Clinton, who was accused of rape and other improprieties far worse than anything Franken was accused of.
Speaking of her hypocrisy, we should recall that she was pro-gun when that was politically convenient, and suddenly became anti-gun when THAT became politically convenient.
And don’t forget her years of working for Big Tobacco, helping them lie to us about cancer and cigarettes.
I don’t trust a single word she utters.
22
Gillibrand took out my senator with no due process. The fact that all those other pols piled on at once shows that it was an organized mob based on political expediency. KG still shows no understanding of how she and the others violated Al's right to a presumption of innocence. Al was falsely attacked by a right wing self promoting personality with no credibility. I will never vote for her. Lifelong dem.
22
I would be happy to vote for Gillibrand with the proviso that she have Franken as her running mate. He was a far better and smarter Senator than she is and he could help. He had the decency to take one for the team. Even when the team made a terrible and self-destructive decision with her leading the charge over the cliff.
14
If the zeitgeist of the party had been to publicly abuse women, Senator Gillibrand would have been the first person on the floor to start the flogging. That she is a woman has nothing to do with the criticism she's getting—Mazie Hirono called on him to resign, as well, but people see her as an authentic champion of women.
Senator Gillibrand has always acted as a typical snake-in-the-grass politician. She may be a good human outside of politics, but she evades direct lines of questioning, reframes interviews to suit her boo-hoo narrative of being singled out, and I hope a progressive challenger with organic bona-fides goes after her seat.
13
I was a supporter of Kristen Gilligrand before she arranged for Al Franken to be summarily dismissed from the Senate. In my view, he may have had his piccadillos in how he interacted with women, but they were correctable He was a great Senator, a prospective presidential candidate, and a supporter of women, and he did not deserve getting kicked out of the Senate.
I felt Kirsten Gillibrand showing a lack of judgment and understanding that ruled her out for any higher office. New York State can determine whether she makes a good Senator for NY.
She will never move on to higher offie. I wish that she were not running for president - she wastes time on the debates. I can't stand to even hear her speak now - and I was a big fan before - read her autobiography, etc. Gillibrand lacks integrity as well as being distracting from real sources of discrimination and sexual violence against women. I hope voters in New York reject her in her next Senate campaign.
She has terrible judgment and a disregard for facts. No wonder she made all her money as an attorney representing the tobacco companies!
19
In the 1990s when Al Franken was at the end of his television writing career, he tried to get me fired because he wanted to hire a client mine that passed on working for him. He said that she and I would never work again and tried to bully me. I didn't care that he yelled at me and never told the client his threat which was simply a tantrum. However, that wasn't good enough for him, he called my boss and said I should be fired in a display of anger for not getting his way. I would've forgotten about his behavior had he not fought for a Senate seat in a disputed election and I had to hear his name in the news regularly. All this goes to character-he clearly hates women-I'm sure he would've never done this to men. I'm donating to Gillibrand right now for seeing that Franken is a man who has distain for women, making him unfit for public office. Just because he's a Democrat doesn't give him a pass on bad behavior. Shame on Michael Barraro too, today was the first time I thought he tried to lead the discussion where he wanted it to go. None of you naysayers would like this from Trump and Fox News, so why do Franken and Michael get a pass?
10
@Lucianna
Franken may well have deserved to go. We can debate that.
But while Gillibrand was grandstanding about him, and forcing his ouster without the Ethics investigation he requested, she was also glad to share her campaign stage with an accused rapist, Bill Clinton. Then there is her work with Big Tobacco to help them lie to us about cancer and cigarettes.
She’s a phony, an opportunist and a hypocrite.
5
@Lucianna Your story doesn't surprise me. I did not know or work with Al Franken, but I met him once and found him incredibly arrogant. I am a third generation Democrat and a Minnesota resident. I regretted having to vote for Franken as my senator and always hoped he might be defeated in a primary (I would never vote Republican). But even with all of that history, even though I didn't like him, I still wanted Al Franken to be treated fairly in the face of the accusations. It's not about the person, it's about the values we have as Americans to hear all sides before guilt is assumed or punishment is meted out. The fact that Gillibrand does not share those values means she cannot be trusted with power. I now look forward to her defeat in a primary and am eager to see her off the Presidential candidate stage.
6
@Lucianna
Franken may very much deserve to have been ousted. He also deserved the Ethics investigation he requested but which Gillibrand denied him.
She grabbed the spotlight to condemn him, but was happy to share her campaign stage with an accused rapist.
Her seeming support for women’s causes is mere political convenience.
Contribute to her if you wish, by all means, but
know her for the hypocrite she is.
4
Ms. Gillebrand, please drop out of the race. The field is over-crowded and you have zero chance of getting the nomination. Now's your chance to do the party a favor (not that it will ever make up for what you did to Franken) and just go.
14
"What it means when you say believe women, is not that they get to decide what did or did not happen, it means you do an investigation" -- exactly what she did not allow to happen. Gillibrand can act now like Franken had the choice, but politically, give me a break. The Democrats in the Senate made it impossible for him to stick it out for such an investigation.
It was upsetting to feel like this was the Democrats idea of justice.
18
This may be the last debate appearance we see from Gillibrand during this presidential run. I think Barbaro won this one. I greatly appreciate Kirsten's crusade and support where she is coming from. But the whole point of the New Yorker story was: Franken's not the best case study for her polarized point of view. Her inability to acknowledge and address (and accurately characterize) the shades of gray disqualify her from being a trustworthy representative of a large constituency, be it America or her NY Senate district. I hope she is extremely successful an influential, outside of government.
1
I appreciate this podcast so much as a man, I have found the me too movement to move too quickly In vilifying men (sometimes for good reasons - for not being heard and being considered for decades) I think voicing out wrong doing is important but casting a verdict - without any consideration is not ok - and in the case of Al Frankan - it did ruined a career of an awesome senator who was a fantastic public server with great humor and honesty- I find Kristin’s harsh verdict unfair and unjust; she need to take responsibility for casting a verdict without any factual consideration - words have consequences
10
Shouldn’t he be called ‘former Senator’ Al Franken?
1
@Gloria Morales
We traditionally still call former presidents, VPs , generals, and yes, senators by the title they formerly held. For instance, we still address Carter, Bush, and Obama as Mr President.
2
Sen Gillibrand did force Al Franken to resign, now that the New Yorker article exposes the holes in Franken's accuser's story, she wants a re-write of history and pretend that it was all his decision.
I've heard people accuse her of being an "opportunist" during her political career.
Now I see why.
16
Am I the only one who thinks Gillibrand's voice sounds like that of a little girl? Because I don't pay much attention to her, this was the first time I noticed it, or perhaps she doesn't normally sound like she did today.
10
@Beth
She was in victim mode, hence the voice.
2
@Beth why does the sonic characteristics of her voice matter? Perhaps no one pointed out about her voice, because people know that it doesn't matter if she sounds like a little girl or not?
2
The only way Gillibrand could make up for the damage she did would be to resign and let Gov. Cuomo appoint Franken in her place.
18
@Norman
Unfortunately Franken lives in Minnesota and Gillibrand represents the state of New York in the Senate.
@BSmith In New York State one must be a resident by election day. My understanding is the governor could appoint Franken the day after he establishes residency.
1
To follow up, I'm pretty sure she thought taking the Trump "fake news" approach of attempting to gaslight Michael by calling into question his ability to read and analyze information would resonate with supporters (maybe) or undecideds (unlikely). Seems like she thought the Democratic voting base is as gullible as Republicans. Pretty insulting actually.
22
@Rob
Next time somebody interviews Gillibrand, they should have an annotated copy of the New Yorker story and read excerpts back to Gillibrand, asking her if she agrees.
That's the way lawyers do it.
8
I love the daily, but this episode was offensive and upsetting. The premise of the show distracts the audience from the real problem of sexism and sexual violence. It also reinforces the narrative that the ultimate crime is the toppling of powerful male leaders from their position and that unless the accuser has overwhelming evidence and is meek and gracious (s)he should be silent and endure or step away. Michael’s victim-blaming places all responsibility on the victims and supporters. Who wasn’t interviewed or questioned is just as telling. Why aren’t we directing these questions to the accused himself?
Furthermore, questioning the importance of calling-out and intervening is very dangerous territory. Imagine a world where we could be condemned for speaking out against injustice, even just the fear of being condemned would silence many, allowing violence and harm to continue and worsen. Lastly, suggesting that we would be stronger if we didn’t demand safe and harassment-free work places, also suggests that men would be better off and that women and gender minorities do not matter. This is the last thing I need to hear from a trusted news source.
Michael Babaro, I feel harmed and afraid from this interview. I expect many others do too. As such, I feel like a public apology and a personal apology to Senator Gillibrand is in order to amend this harm. Thanks for considering the potential harm you have caused.
17
@Sarah R thank you for this comment and validation. I couldn't quite put my feelings into words after listening to this episode, but then I saw this. I 100% agree with you.
2
@Laura P + Sarah, thank you for both of your comments. i also felt extremely triggered after listening to this episode. the amount of victim blaming statements was astonishing. i have been a faithful daily listener but i think this episode lost me as a subscriber.
1
@Sarah R Please read the entire New Yorker article and then you will see who has been harmed -- Al Franken. Anytime an innocent person is falsely convicted -- this time without even an investigation or 'trial,' we are all damaged. The founders of #MeToo said, "Believe the women -- and investigate." The original intent has been perverted.
3
I thought Michael's asked really important questions, and framed them in a really sensitive way. I find it really concerning that she was so dismissive of the lack of due process in this case, and also that she refuse to acknowledge her influence as well as the pressure on Franken to resign without an investigation. Michael is right, it strengthens our cause to ensure that these cases are properly investigated.
29
@Catharine Gillibrand set women who have been abused back as well as destroying Al Franken's career.
I wish the media would quit shing a light on her - it seems to bring out the worst in her!
5
I am always a fan of Michael but especially during this interview. Thank you Michael for asking the tough questions in a very kind and respectful way. I agreed with many of the things you challenged her on and I thought we were all innocent until proven guilty here? I am a female and obviously appreciate the cause she has taken up but she rushed to judgement and would not admit it. She does not have my democratic vote. Thank you Michael for doing what you do. I listen every day on the way to work!
21
Gillibrand does an excellent job of doubling down. If doubling down regardless of whatever information comes to light, and if sticking to one's public statements and never backing down are qualities that Americans want in a president, she deserves our votes. I won't be voting for her.
24
I read this transcript with an open mind but it wasn't changed. I still think Gillibrand is an opportunist that jumped the gun on this great Democrat and Senator.
All "evidence" that I have seen points to Franken as being a touchy-feely kind of guy like Biden. That he apologized for this is what she used here to convict him. Why hasn't she called for Biden to leave the race for the same reasons? Politics. She doesn't think it would help her aspirations.
Franken may have been a perfect presidential candidate at this time, which I believe may have also been part of her calculus.
To be a true leader in the MeToo movement, and certainly to be POTUS, calling for justice is a prerequisite. We already have a POTUS that decides guilt or innocence without benefit of an investigation.
30
@Michael Roberts
I'm a woman and I have come to think that Kristen Gillibrand does a lot more damage to women's rights than she does to help them. Senator Gillibrand jumps to conclusions, refuses to review the facts in any matter, and seems to be primarily just trying to run for higher office all the time.
I think the way she dismisses evidence and rushes to judgment reflects the traditional insult that women are not fit for political office becuase they are too wrought to get the facts straight!
I wish New York votes would find a beter woman senator in her next election. Mrs. Gillibrand is not a good example of leadership.
13
I'm a digital NYT subscriber and a daily listener of your show. With the exception of today's show, I've found it to be interesting and enlightening.
I'm astonished that I'm writing to you about today's episode. It was a lack of judgment on your part to let it air. I've never written to you before, nor any podcast. I was just astonished at what I was hearing this morning.
The multiple "hard" questions and "hard" followups from Michael Barbaro felt like he was attacking Sen. Gillibrand. It almost came off as blaming her for Al Franken's indiscretions and decisions.
You have done many award-worthy shows that tell stories that are important and timely. Today's piece had Mr. Barbaro coming across as a tone-deaf reporter from another era with an ax to grind. This will not age well.
Jane Mayer's piece came out a month ago. This was old news and many outlets came out with valid criticisms of that article as well as to Franken's regrets. (Vox and Slate had a couple). There are so many important stories to tell and this was not one of them.
The reasons that I kept listening instead of turning it off are because of my respect for the Daily and wanting to hear what new angle you were going to come up and my utter horror at what was coming out of Mr. Barbaro's mouth.
Again, you do great work, and I'm sure that tomorrow will be something great again. But something broke down in your editorial process to let this one play. It needs to be addressed.
14
@Michael Polsinelli
I completely disagree with you on your assessment of this interview. I thought Michael asked thoughtful questions in a very sensitive and respectful way and that Gillibrand came across as very defensive and disrespectful.
Michael brought up some very difficult but important questions, and Gillbrand dismissed them without giving them much thought. She appears to be incapable of self reflection, and understanding how her actions influence those people around her. She sounded very "trump like" to me, and that really turned me off.
13
@Michael Polsinelli The only thing Mr. Barbaro did wrong was to be so apologetic in asking the questions many of us wanted answered. What horrified me? Ms. Gillibrand's disingenuous answers.
11
@S B - This, 100%.
2
Allegations are not convictions. I for one think she has calculated and contrived this approach to separate herself from warren or klobuchar or harris in advance of the democratic primary. She never answered the questions and Barbaro was very soft, too soft.
10
What an odd interview for the Daily. I’m a big fan but what started out as an interesting set of questions quickly devolved into a what seemed to be a “gotcha piece” intent on making the Senator admit to some fault. At best it was tone deaf and disappointing. At worst, it was reductive and engaged in victim shaming and other classic and discredited tropes. The one highlight was that Senator Gillibrand remained eloquent and true to her principles throughout.
11
@Leah Please read the entire New Yorker article. Unless you do, you are not responding with factual information in mind.
2
She definitely can argue her point which is absolutely valid. But the carnival of American presidential elections strips away or her validity and all her valid points. I definitely cannot listen or read any truth-seeking struggle under the carnival and shameful umbrella of an American election.
1
Shame on Michael for the way he decided to frame these questions. I understand trying to ask tough questions but you resulted to victim blame numerous times. I wouldn't vote for Gillibrand in an election but I have more respect for her after listening to this interview.
24
@Matthew - This was the first time in all the time I've listened that I thought he lost his journalistic evenness. It was weird. As a journalist, I know it happens to everyone, and he tends to be spot-on - but he was off this time.
8
@Matthew
Wow - I did not see this at all. I think Michael asked difficult questions in a very thoughtful and sensitive way, and that Gillibrand was very defensive and dismissive of what could have been a thoughtful exchange.
Too many people too quick to point fingers - That does not help the cause.
Also, you accuse Michael of "victim blame numerous times". This just seems so absurd - I did not see this at all. I heard Michael asking tough, factual, and thoughtful questions. No "victim blamining" catch phrase appropriate here.
5
Sorry, she was wrong and should have the decency to say so. This event should be a cautionary tale to any and all eager to jump on the bandwagon of righteous outrage before all of the facts are known. This goes for politicians, civilians, and the media; all are culpable...
83
@Stacey
She was also laughably hypocritical.
While she denied Franken the Ethics investigation he Rey, she was also completely happy to invite an accused rapist to share her campaign stage.
3
@Franco51
I should have written “investigation he requested “
2
The trouble with these kinds of accusations from the suspect's perspective, especially as a male, is the often complete and ultimate loss of trust and social credibility that makes it virtually impossible to continue or return to one's same career, even under the auspices of exoneration or innocence. The problem with not pursuing them is having rapists, liars and bullies sitting in the highest offices of our land.
7
@Thomas Corbett And that is why, I am sure, that he volunteered to have an ethics committee investigation.
She could have just let the investigation go ahead, but she chose to push for his resignation without even allowing him a chance to defend himself. She declared herself the judge.
Others joined her, but she began the push, that started the steamroller, that ran him over.
9
Gillibrand doubling down? Wow, never saw that coming. Keep polling at 2% and say hello to DeBlasio at the bottom of the ranks.
37
I barely made it through this one. The first feature of this presidential candidate since announcing her run, and Michael goes after her for choosing to believe women and use her voice, rather than silently condoning the actions of an accused sexual assaulter and allowing him to stay in power. It was an uncomfortably sexist and old-fashioned line of questioning. I expected more here.
15
@Andi B
Don’t let her fool you.
She accepted accusations as fact, and denied Franken the Ethics investigation he requested, all for her own political gain.
If I am wrong about her, then why did she invite an accused rapist to share her campaign stage?
2
She is merely a wannabe. She goes in whatever direction she thinks will cast her in a good light. I'm glad piling on another Democrat so quickly is causing her trouble. Now, in what little news coverage she gets, it's said she'd love to be vice=president. A mere wannabe.
26
Gillibrand is smart and tough but she was a rude interview and as a rape survivor, I appreciate her tenacity but sometimes being rude and over-the-top with her belief isn’t helpful, I’m my opinion. Kind of frustrating to hear her cut Michael off and be condescending.
33
Gillibrand says she will stand with the eight survivors of Al Franken's (alleged) harassment. Will she also stand with countless victims of the tobacco industry that she worked against for years as a corporate lawyer? Or are her past actions beyond reproach?
61
@Patrick
The tobacco industry kills over 400,000 Americans a year, half of them women. They were addicted as teenagers.
As Stalin said, one death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic.
1
Senator Gillebrand was quick on the trigger with Al Franken. His actions didn't merit his removal from the Senate. My god look what we're endured with the president. What Franked did was minor league. Here was a man who had the stature to successfully run against Trump. Democrats have a way of eating their own.
42
Wow - Gillibrand may be the only Democrat I would not vote for in 2020, and that is saying a lot.
61
@S B Agree, thank goodness we will never have to face that for sure!
4
Al Franken did a lot for progressive issues for our country, including women who experienced sexual harassment in the military and were not allowed to prosecute due to arbitration laws. Here is a clip from the documentary, Hot Coffee https://youtu.be/Y6kiZIlMFto
which shows what kind of Senator Franken was. I wish KG could admit she made a mistake about not waiting for the ethics committee to review this case. I think his voice is missed.
66
@air at 5280
Health insurance companies were charging at least 20% of your premium dollar for administrative costs and profits. The Franken Amendment to the Affordable Care Act limited that charge to 15%. Franken reduced the cost of Obamacare by 5%.
13
@air at 5280 she called for Franken to resign while also bragging about her sponsorship of that bill that banned mandatory arbitration of sexual-harassment claims. She didn’t mention that Franken had originated the bill, and gave it to her to sponsor, out of concern that it might be in jeopardy because of Tweeden's accusation. Instead she put her name on the bill, and then stabbed him in the back.
21
Gillibrand treats women as if they have no agency.
23
Wow! Just re-read the New Yorker article and, just as i feared, nearly everything Senator Gillibrand said about the article was incorrect (and, often, **wildly** incorrect). Instead of itemizing each point I'll let you read for yourself.. [https://tinyurl.com/y6ow45lt] She may be simply choosing the Cohn method of public debate: argue your point louder and longer than your detractors, **never** admit a mistake, and always keep them on the defensive (e.g. 'How can one remain silent while so many victims share their painful experiences?').
44
Kirsten Gillibrand has zero chance of being elected President. Her hatchet job on Al Franken is just one of the many pieces of baggage she is carrying.
50
Sen. Gillibrand, as a daily The Daily listener, I trust Michael Barbaro far more than you. I don't think he was misrepresenting The New Yorker's reporting. This is an uncomfortable topic for you because you screwed up. You are right, Franken is not entitled to your silence. But the Democratic party -- and all the Democratic voters who you are courting in your presidential bid -- are entitled to criticize your actions. And you don't seem to think you have done anything wrong. As a Democratic voter, you were and are wrong and your actions lost my vote and the votes of countless others. In the , I don't trust you or your judgment. You aren't going to be president. Drop out and make room for others who can actually win.
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Of course Gillibrand is going to defend herself -- politicians running for president rarely cop to mistakes. I wasn't familiar with her until she led the charge in calling for Franken's resignation, and she has been been a bitter pill since. We can only wonder how that episode has colored her candidacy.
18
Senator Gillibrand presents herself as an unyielding advocate for women. She says "absolutely not" when asked if she went too far in her unyielding demand for Senator Franken's resignation.
I say: Enough with the "unyielding." I say: enough with the "absolutes."
It is good to be a strong advocate for women. One can be such an advocate and at the same time abjure rigidity and self-righteous absolutes. Even more than Ms. Gillibrand, Mr. Franken was a strong articulate voice advocating for democratic ideals.
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Some context that might be missing from this episode is that Franken was the major force in Congress fighting against Trump. His brilliant interrogative techniques led, for example, to Jeff Sessions recusing himself in the Russian investigation--which subsequently led to Mueller's appointment. Had Franken remained in office, he might have been instrumental getting the president impeached. Without Franken, the Democrats have paid a price. They've lost an all-star and no one has emerged yet as a substitute. Nothing against Gillibrand--but she catalyzed the resignation of Al Franken. She should own that--it ought to be her calling card: absolute purity. Instead, she redirects blame for her actions in this podcast.
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This was a masterful interview by Michael Barbaro in a fraught cultural climate on this issue. Senator Gillibrand also handled the frank questioning very well. She was clear, forthright and consistent while refraining from any defensive or injured tone.
1
This itself is a part of the problem. A woman is having to defend why she wanted someone who was clearly out of the line to resign from a public post of that stature, months after the fact.
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@Bibek No, the problem is that he wasn't "clearly out of line," and she couldn't wait for that to be determined. She took it on herself to be his judge.
Yet she had no problem taking ownership of his legislation.
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Why did the Senator from New York not discuss her decision with the democratic leadership before taking action to end the political career of a colleague & friend based on such tenuous and obviously politically motivated allegations? There should have been an investigation, as Senator Franken called for himself. To quote Senator Gillibrand: "When you say believe women, what that means it not they get to decide whether something happened or didn't. It means you will do an investigation." Where was the investigation for Senator Franken?
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@Tom
I am sorry that Al Franken resigned. I wish he hadn't. But as Sen. Gillibrand repeats here, it was his decision. Reminds me of Al Gore's decision to allow Bush II to grab the presidential election. Sometimes, Dems are too quick to accept the blame. Gillibrand was wrong in calling for Franken's resignation, imo, and Franken was wrong in giving into the rolling demands. It's our national loss.
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@Lexicron He was forced out. Read The New Yorker article. They threatened him with serious consequences.
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One thing Gillibrand will obviously never do is to take responsibility for her own words and actions. She continues to deflect all the recent questions around this issue claiming she had to make her voice heard. She could have appropriately done that by calling for the ethics investigation rather than her rush to judgement. The Jane Mayer piece was very disturbing in pointing out some of the inaccuracies of what Gillibrand cobbles as truth. Now many of her colleagues are regretting their actions, which cost us a good voice in the senate. The mob with pitch forks mentality is usually flawed and self righteousness always fogs the mirror.
26
I strongly agree that due process must always be the goal. False allegations, as rare as they may be, only serve to perpetuate the stigma that survivors face. However, I must challenge Barbaro's notion that a "full investigation" would lead to more clarity, justice, and validity for survivors in the long term. Ask any survivor of sexual assault who has tried to report their assault and navigate the criminal justice system as to whether or not they were taken seriously and their voice was heard. Investigations still take place in a society that largely continues to delegitimize survivors. This is what Senator Gillibrand is challenging and trying to change. There cannot be any justice until we shift this paradigm - one in which we remain far more concerned about the redemption of a handful of powerful men than the scores of women who they abused. What about the many women sexually harassed at work? What about our concern for their career trajectories, which studies have shown are often derailed? The question we really need to be asking is why is sexual harassment and sexual assault so prevalent and what can we do to end it? Holding perpetrators accountable - whether in the court of law or by remaking our societal standards - is one necessary step. It is not a right to be a Senator or a Supreme Court Justice - it is a privilege. If we can't hold our leaders to these standards, then what hope do we have to end sexual harassment and sexual assault?
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@Jean Bucaria What you are saying is against all common sense and legal precepts and indeed, against what the founders of #MeToo have said, "Believe -- and investigate." Punishing an innocent man -- and if you read The New Yorker article, it's clear he is -- only destroys the credibility and importance of #MeToo.
1
Unfortunately I was left feeling disappointed and frustrated after listening to this episode. While the interview started off with well thought out questions, I felt it quickly devolved into what can be described as “victim-support shaming”. Senator Gillibrand is and was well spoken and unapologetic for her reaction to Al Franken’s behavior. I felt like Mr Barbaro was trying to get her to admit she did something wrong and kept asking questions trying to shame her to change her answer. Mr. Franken admitted he crossed the line and still, Mr. Barbaro continued to ask Sen. Gillibrand as if it was her fault that he is no longer in office. What we should have heard about is why politicians are now trying to make it seem like it is not a big deal. I am proud of how Sen. Gillibrand handled the questions and felt like Mr. Barbaro missed a key opportunity to discuss how we can create safe work environments for every individual, regardless of gender or race and that the current leadership should not be accepting of this type of behavior.
8
@Jb22
As you can see from the majority of comments most of us feel that Sen. Gillibrand went too far on the Al Franken issue. Zero tolerance sounds nice, but rarely works in practice and usually spins off negative results that hurt your cause. Mr. Barbaro asked the questions he did because it IS the issue with Sen. Gillibrand. As far as I am concerned, Sen Gillibrand did do something wrong and she will not get my vote in any election.
15
The Franken thing is the reason I'll never vote for her, primary or general.
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Senator Gillibrand is running for President, so she is wary of admitting fault. But advocating punishment without due process is indefensible (and the recent revelations about the claims against Franken only highlight that indefensibility). While discussing Franken's conduct, Gillibrand had a nice line about the importance of acknowledging our mistakes -- she makes for an ironic messenger.
35
The senator hurt her campaign by not just apologizing for her
position on Senator Franken. She should have requested an ethics review prior to demanding the Senator resign. She forgot we are innocent until proven guilty.
31
The Al Franken debacle is exactly why I would not vote for Ms. Gillibrand. She vehemently called for his resignation without due process, and now says it was "his choice?" Who is guilty of not taking responsibility for his/her actions: Franken, or Gillibrand?
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I will never forgive her. And I hope it's not too late for Franken to decide to seek public office.
31
I'm sorry Michael, but Sen. Gillibrand completely disassembled your "devil's advocate" questions. She clearly demonstrated the continued misogyny that exists in our country and government. Kudos to her for setting an example regarding consent and that believing and standing by victims is still the harder path is our country.
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Instead of settling a precedent that everyone who is accused should be investigated and given due process: she chose to keep in place a process where allegations could just be ignored.
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She has no business running for the top office of the land. She comes from a New York lobbyist family, and has demonstrated her skill as an adept politician with sharp elbows. Since her first run for NY Senate, she has flip flopped on several issues. My position was Franken a much better advocate for our party. Further proof than women aren't much different than men when the subject is politics.
17
Franken is twice the person Gillibrand is and was a huge loss. I have never forgiven her and would never vote for or donate to her.
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Good job! This interview was very clear and inspiring.
7
There’s a reason Gillibrand is polling at <1% and it’s the specter of Al Franken’s career.
He was twice the Senator she’ll ever be.
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Just listened to the Daily on my way to work, I usually enjoy Michael Barbaro’s style of questioning but he really missed the mark today. Finding every way to repeatedly ask a woman if she’s sorry that she ruined the career of a popular man when he chose to leave based on his actions is infuriating. No, any way you ask the question it was not her fault that he chose to resign. This is one topic that would have been better handled by a female reporter who had some background in the issue of sexual harassment.
8
@EK
Like it or not sexual harassment is not exclusively a woman's issue. I do not think that Al Franken did anything for which he should have resigned. When you say it would be "better if handled by a female reporter who had some background in the issue of sexual harassment", I interpret that to mean you only want the women's side of the story, men should be presumed guilty just because they are men. This is a great way to lose half the support for your cause.
Finally, Sen. Gillibrand absolutely contributed to publicly shaming Sen. Franken into resigning and she needs to answer for that.
9
@Jim, your interpretation is a pretty big leap from the OP’s suggestion that a reporter with expertise in reporting on the issue might have done a better job. Barbaro’s questions lacked nuance and his approach was inexpert. I don’t care about the gender of the reporter, but i agree that a female reporter would have removed one more intervening variable and increased the chances of asking the senator effective questions that didn’t open convenient escape hatches of victim-blaming.
1
She can just forget about her campaign. She put the nail in her own coffin, when she was so quick to call for Al Franken to resign. Cannot even listen to anything she has to say anymore.
25
I listened to the Daily on the way to work this morning, I usually find Michael Barbaro's style of questioning good but he really missed the mark on this topic. Asking Senator Gillibrand repeatedly in different ways if she was to blame for Senator Franken's resignation showed a lack of any perspective of the accusers or a woman who had the courage to take a moral stand, even if it cost her politically. This topic would have been better handled by a reporter with some background in sexual harassment.
4
Mr. Franken has my full support; Ms. Gillibrand does not.
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I listen to The Daily every single day and am a true fan. As a woman who has worked in the corporate world and felt discrimination, I was disappointed by Michael's questions. Kirsten was phenomenal: represented the facts clearly, showed an appropriate level of emotion and care for her colleague, Al Franken, demonstrated courage by doing the right thing and finally, she spoke for many good people who want the world to be a better place. I was disappointed because Michael's questions seemed devious, almost like he had been asked to defend Al Franken and infuriating in that he didn't seem to recognize the importance of Kirsten Gillibrand's words and message. I think Michael owes her and the world an apology.
6
News flash: I don't care. This is how the Dems lose: Self-injurious purity tests on one hand, and oddly selective tribalism on the other (BDS anyone?). Tell me how either of these policies will get us universal health care, reasonable gun control, and help the middle class and I'll listen.
12
Gillebrand is still defending her self-serving attack on Franken. Luckily even if she is totally believed (and that's very hard to imagine), she's so low in the polls that she doesn't have a chance. She is political toast.
16
Micheal seems to be getting ahead of the times in this interview when he says Brett Kavanaugh prevailed most who watched the hearings would agree that there is a "shadow of doubt " hanging over him, indeed the very thing his office aught to fear. How could there not be? In the future those who study this case will not be as cavalier as Barbaro.
2
This interview was astonishing in many respects:
1) She refuses to acknowledge that the first complainant's story has serious credibility issues after Mayer's piece in the New Yorker, notwithstanding the fact that she relied on media reporting to vet the initial complaints. So Gillebrand trusts reporting to vet allegations, until the new reporting challenges her agenda. And she's incredibly still standing by Tweeden's allegations.
2) Senator Gillibrand is the one who started the call to demand Franken's resignation PRIOR to an investigation. Yet during the interview, she has the gall to put the decision to resign prior to an investigation squarely on Franken's shoulders.
3) She has the audacity to finish the interview with a soliloquy about the importance of admitting you're wrong and apologizing. Gillebrand meet mirror.
This interview alone disqualified her from the Presidency. She has demonstrated that she has zero integrity.
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@Andres Hannah These were my feelings exactly!
2