It seems outrageous that anyone other than those that benefit from the Communist party in China would believe this disinformation. Especially as so many have relatives in the free world and HK.
But those that are pro-China in the US, Canada, Australia, etc. do have access to 'real' news and while bias abounds in the 21st century, it is doubtful at best that 1.7 million are brainwashed by the CIA (or any other foreign element).
3
Yuen Long. Goons with sticks. 'nuff said. China isn't ready for prime time.
The Soviet propaganda machine could never explain away the fact that no nation ever joined them willingly. And when the curtain cracked in '91, their allies and partners fled to the West in a virtual stampede. In the US, I meet many China mainland exchange students. Not one has ever expressed excitement about returning home. When they speak of it, you see disgust in their faces as if they are smelling something foul, or aversion like it's an inevitability too unpleasant to dwell on. The people posting on Weibo and WeChat are paid for their work. Or, because identities are known on Chinese social media, they are angling for appointments and promotions.
China has the economic power to assert some influence, but it's not the same as admiration. In the Soviet sphere, the tail ended up wagging the dog. The client regimes gave them lip service for money and guns, as Moscow became gradually more stupid. Over time, we will see the same in China. In the meantime, I think we have the same moral obligation to protect free-thinking people from bullies, clods and drunks. We shouldn't legitimize it as an "alternative system." When you meet officials from regimes such as this, you sense immediately that they are individuals of low intellect, governed by greed as aggression. There is a good reason why the US has been feared by its adversaries. People of this type cower before someone stronger.
8
There are some excellent lessons here in exercising soft power that extend to DC itself -- if the president was not so busy trying to buy Greenland from the Danes.
Start with Nye's idea that “the best propaganda is not propaganda" and “credibility is the scarcest resource.” You're not going to have a lot more credibility than an official Beijing propaganda outlet when your Lie-o-Meter is now past 10K.
Which may be why 45 has been noticeably quiet on HK, where real news is still flowing and protesters don't have the luxury of indulging alternative facts from either side.
1
China had a good thing going there. How stupid they are, not progressing to the next step of human/country development. The same thing plagues the rest of us. No change, in fact a speedy reversal to former "idyllic" days. Those at the top just do not want to share ANY of their pie, even if they still get to keep most of it.
1
it is strange that you would distinguish between Shenzhen and Hong Kong by calling the former "socialist" and the latter "capitalist." i get that words don't mean anything anymore and that "socialist" is just a label used by neoliberals to describe anything they don't like, but if there's anyone out there doing capitalism at a world class level, it's the people's republic of china.
4
Unfortunately, much of the developing world (including English-speaking countries) lacks discourse of power, which has been dominated by U.S. and UK-based corporate English publications such as NYTimes, CNN, BBC and the like. This means that the current mainstream media get to define contentious terms such as democracy, frame conversations, proclaim correct narratives, and eliminate unfavorable perspectives. It will take decades before China or any developing country can break the monopoly of speaking rights of such outlets.
13
@Zhanwen Chen if there are multiple media publications within the US and UK promoting different interpretations of such "contentious terms" as democracy, then it isn't a monopoly, is it?
And why do you ignore the press in Hong Kong, where this is happening? Is their perspective a little too inconvenient for you? They vary from LC apologists to severe critics of Beijing, and disparate views can be found within individual publications such as SCMP. That's because they are independent, for the most part, unlike the media in the mainland.
5
@Zhanwen: but as we just learned today, Falun Gong have managed to insert themselves into a position of influence in the US and in particular have significant influence with Trumpers and with the Trump administration. I have heard that they have been suppressed by force in China, but that doesn’t mean that we should accept everything they say, especially since they are trying to push Trump into conflict with China (and selfishly I worry that my home, Hong Kong, will be affected). Their teachings are also quite weird. Interesting article on NBC News: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1044121
@Tom I agree with you, sir, but you must understand that the Chinese government's propaganda is so powerful that millions have got brainwashed before they even realised it. There is only one voice in China, which is the government's voice, exerting its power in every aspect of social life. Just like the Orwellian world, you gradually believe what you are told to believe, and this, I am afraid, is " why [does the guy] ignore the press in Hong Kong, where this is happening". I do not blame those loyalists of the Chinese government, for their access to information and truth is denied, making them sound so ignorant. I blame the dictatorial government, which mutes the people's voice and destroys their mind.
4
China has no affirmative message beyond a racist exaltation of a particular version of the Chinese people. This vision will not yield soft power and has, in the history of the world, kept China a regional power. May it continue to do so.
4
@Rustamji Chicagowalla um, inconvenient fact: racism helped both the UK and the US become world-dominating imperial powers. China's just copying the playbook, to some extent, and trying to improve on it.
1
Why would we expect more from authoritarian regimes, whose entire power structure constructed on a foundation of thuggishness. Whether it be Russia or Saudi Arabia, compromise, dialogue, fact finding, are democratic tools that do not exist in authoritarian tool boxes---these regimes have one tool---the hammer.
4
Anyone who actually believes there was a policy of "soft power" in Beijing doesn't understand totalitarianism.
Such "soft power" solutions are designed to fail so that the totalitarians may use the failure as an excuse for scorched earth policies.
There was never any intent to allow Hong Kong to remain anomalous.
Time is a luxury the Chinese have and eventually they will roll Hong Kong into the rest of the communinst fold.
If protesters give them a reason to accelerate the process, they will do so.
Hong Kong is an inevitable loss, and the people there who value their former freedom had better leave, and soon.
6
@Objectivist: um, no. For someone who claims to be objective, you make a lot of subjective statements. Neither you nor I know what China has planned to do with Hong Kong. Also, they can change their minds...
Remember that Mao and Zhou En-Lai could easily have marched into HK in the 50s but chose not to because it was useful as it was (recently revealed in cabinet papers from the U.K.). HK could try to keep itself useful under its current system, but the mass disturbance and widespread violence by the protesters make that less likely. Sad, I rather like it as it is...
Any chance we could get the same analysis in the US as to what the Republicans and the Democrats do to advance their views? That would be refreshing!
4
@expat: and read the article on Falun Gong’s influence in the US government, reported on NBC News!
2
The world deals with autocratic China on a daily basis. Financial and trade deals are made. Businesses are established. Money is made, albeit not fast enough to satisfy some.
The population of China is about 1.3 billion. The population of Hong Kong is about 7.3 million. None of the aforementioned actions are conditional with respect to the treatment of the 1.3 billion Chinese people. None.
When Hong Kong was returned to China I recall folks in Hong Kong celebrating with fireworks. Just what did they think would happen as the years passed?
Fast forward to today. What steps are you willing to take in order to attempt a reversal of China's full takeover of Hong Kong?
Criticize Trump? OK - check.
Criticize the US foreign and trade policy? OK - check. Criticize Bejing? Well, sort of but in the same breath one must criticize the US and/or Trump. OK - check.
Sort of mention British control of Hong Kong and how it was a kind of a somewhat evil thing, to a certain degree? OK - check.
Criticize Trump OK - check.
Hong Kong, look to the mainland. That's your future.
Happy 70th Anniversary!
3
China used to have quite a bit of soft power--in the 18th century. Enlightenment philosophers such as Voltaire and Montaigne saw the secular meritocratic Chinese state as a utopian alternative to to the religious hatreds and court based hierarchies of Europe. What a pity that the current China is no longer seen in this way.
@Susan Napier
This says more about the West than it does about China. It is not China that has truly changed.
3
China wants to look a a bully. Then it makes the fight easier.
They are bullies and soon to be number one.
While the US squanders money in the middle east they have built up their military.
While our entire foreign policy is based on trade, geopolitics according to the minimising the cost and maximising consumption that is now choking the eco-system, China has been using tariffs, fixing its currency and seized control.
The US half century was just about the shortest empire in history. Squandered by economists and bankers taking command of all thought and politics.
6
@scientella
I didn't know that China has 700+ military bases spread around the globe, that she has direct and indirect military presence and outposts in all 5 corners of the world, that the Chinese military budget is more, than all other countries' combined. And finally, I haven't heard of a single foreign military intervention by China anywhere.
6
@scientella:"The US half century was just about the shortest empire in history."
Should we strive to be an "empire" for a longer period of time?
You have really exhibited the finest progressive criticism of China in that you have have taken all the necessary digs at the US while doing so. Good job!
2
@waldo
If you haven’t heard of military interventions by China, you must be getting your news from Chinese state media. Ask any of its neighbours and they will all tell you about their history of wars and interventions.
2
Back when the PRC was still closed to the outside world, my father once remarked that China could take Hong Kong [back from the British] with a phone call but that it needed Hong Kong as its eyes and ears on the world. In some senses that is still true. Hong Kong is an international city, which people around the world know and love and are in one way or another invested in. Any harm to Hong Kong would blacken China's image internationally way more than even Tiananmen Square did.
2
@Kathe Geist: That was what, 40-45 years ago. China no longer needs any eyes or ears you you mentioned.
Insofar as its image goes, China will do what it needs and wants to in terms of domestic policy.
4
@Kathe Geist
HK's unique status, as an international hub made sense, when China was an impoverished agrarian country, guided and governed by a dogmatic ideology. But that has changed dramatically in the last 30 years and HK's position has been waning rapidly.
I also do not believe, that China wants to 'harm' HK; simply expects it to adhere to the agreement that ceded its control back to Beijing.
In any event, what the demonstrators - and their enthusiastic Western sponsors - don't seem to realise, that HK's demise, as an international hub is only accelerated by unrealistic demands and the breakdown of law and order.
3
What are their unrealistic demands? That China live up to their 1997 agreement?
4
Here's the reality:
Hong Kong is completely connected to the rest of China through land, air and sea. The world recognizes Hong Kong as China.
We have tried (and still try) hard to goad China into taking drastic actions in bringing Hong Kong to heel...to show how evil it is, and yet it exhibits restraint, and places the responsibility of controlling the situation on the shoulders of the local administration.
Naturally, China will deploy its propaganda as widely as it can to counter our narrative. We would do the same and more.
If any of our cities and infrastructure were under such stress as Hong Kong has witnessed, the National Guard would have been summoned...with predictable results.
5
Who is we? WE have nothing to do with the protests. The people of Hong Kong have, once again, taken it upon themselves to counter PRC heavy handedness against their rights. If the Chinese government is smart, which it has so far proven not to be, it will stop the ludicrous propaganda and troop buildup and allow Hong Kongers the autonomy it promised as part of the handover.
Chances are, however, that the the illegitimate, tyrannical Xi administration will continue on its ham fisted path. They’re scared that the anger of Hong Kongers will spread to the mainland. One can only hope.
7
@Confucius
"Naturally, China will deploy its propaganda as widely as it can to counter our narrative. We would do the same and more."
If by this, you mean to say that the U.S. government would deploy state-controlled media assets to blatantly lie (e.g. http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Beijing-wages-fake-news-war-against-Hong-Kong-protests-47764.html including claiming that injuries caused by police were caused by protesters) and engage in mind-warping levels of spin (saying that protesters are trampling on the freedom of the press when the government has a country-wide ban on foreign media, facebook, twitter, etc.) then I think not.
Even if the U.S. or "the West" was prone to take such measures, it is not justification for China's actions but
rather reason for those institutions to reform and embrace transparency as well.
@Confucius
We? Who is 'we' here? No, people just trying to enjoy fundamental human rights.
Goad? Not at all.
your language betrays a very ideological position.
1
China claims to be a superpower rivaling Western democracies but is there to witness is the influx of Chinese hellbent on to migrate to West either through investments, marriage or even human trafficking and reason are the same, lack of confident in the authoritarian system, all pervasive corruption, lack of rule of law, adulteration in consumer products like baby food etc. And to speak of thin skinned political leadership, when Dalai Lama advised against wearing wild animal skins of traditional dresses of Tibetans, Chinese leadership forced Tibetans to wear wild animal skins ! That is the level of petty mindedness
14
This is what I've been telling so many Trump fans and people who think we can just walk in and bully our way around; that our country is great because of the appeal of its soft power to people around the world, where our country is seen as a beacon of hope, security, democracy and progress. China isn't stupid, just paranoid of losing face, and they are fully aware of the benefits of soft power.
But Trump and so many far right conservatives have such a short-term view or a complete disregard for soft power. They ridicule Obama for "apologizing" for American exceptionalism, while ignoring the fact that you don't get people to admire you by loudly proclaiming how awesome you are (remember the quote about being a lady by Margaret Thatcher). They belittle education, saying it's overhyped daycare, government propaganda or "nothing beats working with your hands", but everyone else sees it for what it is: overglorifying ignorance.
Trump and the far right will destroy in less than a decade what it took half a century to achieve.
12
No doubt Donald Trump is doing a far better job on promoting American values!
1
@Peter
Freedom of speech is certainly one American value that he is promoting well. His critics are loud and virulent, yet no one tries to stop them. Trump least of all. No one gets in trouble for it. You're more likely to be browbeaten for saying something supportive of Trump.
So against that backdrop, go to China, publicly criticize Xi and see where that gets you.
3
Trump calls the press ‘the enemy of the people’. He would love to take press freedoms away from us! Luckily, he does not have that power.
2
@Peter Touche', and well deserved.
Speaking of misinformation, protests are common in Hong Kong except this one is much larger with no end in sight. There have been violent confrontations between police and protesters on the streets and at the airport. Beijing blamed the protesters and foreign operatives for inciting violence and the Western media blamed the police and pro-Communist thugs. The protests have been going on since March, but it's amazing there are no reports of any deaths or looting.
The 1992 Los Angeles riots lasted 6 days resulting in 63 deaths and over 2,000 injured and widespread looting. The National Guard and the Army were called in to restore order.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
By comparison, the Hong Kong protests look like a walk in the park, but the media on both sides are giving us a different picture.
7
Pardon me. Are they the author’s opinions? Or her reporting based on some facts? There were a lot of adjectives describing China evil manipulation with the use of twitter and Facebook as propaganda. It sounded to me another pro-democracy piece with presumption that China is bad and rotten, the big ‘C’. Then I guess US president speaks true always, because US is the true democracy hub of the world. And that’s why Trump’s tweets are so important, almost gospel like. God bless America.
7
@GC the reporting seems quite opinionated, I would agree, but its kinda obvious in this case. Facts are left all over the internet by the CCP. Its pretty easy to trace.
1
@GC, sure it's opinionated, but there are plenty of articles decrying the Trump administration's contortions of the truth (and outright lies). The author is not saying that the U.S. is more virtuous than China. That is completely beside the point. The point is that China is losing ground in its effort to shape international opinion about this crisis. China's media arms are blowing any credibility that they have. Also, maybe 'propaganda' is a loaded word, but in this case, I don't think any other descriptor is more appropriate.
2
Chinese government pretty much stayed out of HK conflicts. It has been the goal of the HK protesters and the western media wanted to drag it into the chaos, so they could paint Beijing as the evil force that wanted to crush a democratic movement. But HK problem is most of all a failure of HK political process. HK doesn’t understand how democracy really works.
9
When the CCP can lift 500 million people out of poverty to the middle class in 27 years, I really find it hard to criticise the effectiveness of the CCP.
Just in case you think that the Chinese lives in stalanist gulag conditions in order to achieve such growth. Know that 162 million china citizens last year travelled freely out of the country as tourists, visiting countries all over the world. Amazingly, 162 million citizens came back freely too.
Perhaps we need to step back and consider whether we have mis- judged China.
8
@Hartono
But look at how many of those wealthy (mainland) Chinese citizens have sought rights to live abroad, scared of somehow falling out of favor back at home...
Look at the lines of (mainland) Chinese applying for work visas and citizenship all over the world. How many citizens from 1st world countries are seeking the same in China? Therein lies the answer.
17
@in Hong Kong
I believe that a lot of China citizens apply work citizenships from a pragmatic point, not really to escape an oppressive stifling government.
There are many China citizens working in Singapore too, yet I have never heard once that it was to escape the CCP.
As for many wealthy China citizens seeking to live abroad, it could be a variety of factors. I wouldn't paint all with the same brush stroke.
Not trying to contradict you, but Singapore and US companies are heavily invested in China. Again, its not to escape either the US or Singapore government, just pragmatic reasons.
2
@Hartono
Some for work surely, but many as insurance should they find themselves out of favor-to have a place they can live with rule of law and protection of assets.
Yes, Singaporean and American companies are invested in China (in the case of the mainland, many executives running them out of HK which is more stable) but that is quite different from seeking permanent residency and citizenship. Many mainland Chinese seeking pr/citizenship-quite a different case.
4
There is no doubt that China is desperately trying to "solve" the Hong Kong crisis with innumerable propaganda. And, I must say that they are doing a rather terrible job in the eyes of Hong Kongers.
Just like what Mr. Nye says at the end of the article, China is simply trying too hard. As a Hong Konger, I am confident that I know most things that are happening currently. Whereas when I listen to China's state-controlled medias, (Such as CCTV) most of what happened was NOT reported. Instead, only a small fraction of the news that delineates the protestors' violence is broadcasted. This makes China's "soft power" incredibly ineffective as someone with a bit of common sense and rationing ability will almost immediately recognise the biased nature of such reports.
On the other hand, the US government is incredibly effective at infiltrating its "soft power" into the global society. Hong Kong is yet another good example of the US's influence. The US is probably one of the first nations to promote universal values such as democracy, freedom, privacy... etc. Its influence propagated the world, to cities such as Hong Kong, where people deeply believe in all these ideologies. I do agree that these values and rights are important, but they might not always be the best solution.
Perhaps in another world where America never existed, Hong Kong's crisis would not have happened.
2
@A. Lo "The US is probably one of the first nations to promote universal values such as democracy, freedom, privacy... etc. Its influence propagated the world, to cities such as Hong Kong, where people deeply believe in all these ideologies."
Or perhaps, besides the people in power, this is what most humans want. Freedom is not really a hard sell.
4
@A. Lo
You mean to say that in a totalitarian world controlled by China as the sole hegemon, China would have crushed HK like a bigger version of Tiananmen Square and then whitewashed the whole thing? Good thing we don’t live in that world.
1
Soft power has always helped the US globally- culturally, with a (one-time) emphasis on democracy and human rights-- those are extremely powerful to those without! You can always give "rights" to people- but you can't easily take them away when 1/4 of your population (as in HKG) are willing to protest. The soft power talked about in this article simply isn't being used - it's a tactical mistake, unfortunately, by the mainland - for the impact of their hardened response will be the opposite of what they seek. And more's the pity.
4
@M.P. Neumann Yes but it has been very successful for China.
Yesterday at a HK police press conference, a woman, with no press identification other than a business card, took close up photos of each reporter who had asked pointed questions, and uploaded to WeChat. So after it was over, a group of reporters went forward and demanded an explanation (no force, no scuffle, not even an attempt to look at her phone). That woman's business card said she's from Guangzhou TV and the police escorted her and that was it. Then last night I saw a hashtag trending on weibo that HK reporters targeted Mainland Chinese press and they were very rough and demeaning to her, and of course it's spun into a nationalistic mayhem.
I happened to be watching the live streaming of the press conference and then saw what was reported - it's surreal. This is just a tip of the iceberg of what's being communicated. I now have Chinese coworkers think I am supporting HK "independence" (all we want is for China to honor "two systems"), or side with the "rioters" and against the rule of law (because in their mind HK Police is model police force). All this is rubbish and I simply cannot reason with them!
11
words and ideas are very powerful as we now appreciate. we need to start helping free people by identifying who we're talking about in Hong Kong and it starts with what people believe. there are communists and there are Democrats. the difference is becoming clearer but there is much more work to be done.
China's noxious behavior in Hong Kong is just the tip of the iceberg. China over-ran Tibet a long time ago and is now close to totally "pacifying" it. China would dearly like to totally control the Uighurs. It would like to would like to purge all religions, all individualism, and it will force organ harvesting if you are a dissident.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646
21
As far as bullying goes, one cannot beat President Trump. China is worried about the effects of the protests on the economy and stability. They rightly criticize the protest. BTW Are reports that US diplomats had meeting with protest organizers true? The protests did turn ugly after the meeting. Are you claiming this was propaganda? There is evidence to the contrary.
6
@EE
It has been violent since Jun 12. When the government ignored the voices of 1 million people who came out on Jun 9, and went ahead with the law proceeding. Police started pushing forward towards protesters at the designated demonstration area (yes we have that, it's lawful to gather there), and yes, some protesters started throwing bricks at the police. Police used tear gas to disperse, which I agreed was reasonable, but more to that, they then cornered about a hundred people in front of a building with tear gas from 3 directions. That building's entrance (the only escape route) was a very slow roundabout door. It was mere luck that it didn't turn into a stampede. Also we saw multiple police officers using shields and batons beating up a female protester who was already on the ground. Or shot pepper spray and tear gas in close proximity, also targeting the head.
There was no accountability of any police actions.
We saw organized thugs attacking normal civilians (not even protesters!) on July 21, August 5, August 11, and none prosecuted after. We also saw blatant police lynching from two months ago on a non-politically driven 62-old man, and arrest was only made when camera footage was made public yesterday.
Police is allegedly enabling violence from those who support them. Whoever attacked normal bystanders, as long as they support the police, faces no consequence. I condemn violence on both sides, but I am afraid it's another Lucifer Effect we are witnessing.
8
Goodness. Yet another article focusing on the Chinese Central Government, while ignoring the facts on the ground here in Hong Kong.
.
I really don’t know what the Chinese Government is doing, but it is clearly ineffective with regard to world media. What I do know is what I, a western professional, see in Hong Kong, and it doesn’t match what the Western media is writing about and what many commenters are assuming is the situation. Don’t forget that all the media jumped on the “weapons of mass destruction” bandwagon as well. Commenters at that time whipped themselves into a frenzy of denunciation of Saddam Hussein (who, of course was not a nice man), and really did nothing to dispel the image that was being built. Bolton is working on regime change again, and again focusing on the wrong target. HK people have most of the freedoms of people in the US, plus cheap govt healthcare.
.
It really feels as though the whole world is running to destruction with its fingers in its ears. As a Christian I start taking a closer look at 2 Thes 2, Jude and Revelation and seeing parallels. The West has abandoned God. The so-called Christians in the US have been deceived and have elected a man of lawlessness (Trump) and don’t fear God or care about holiness. The whole world focusses on rights instead of responsibilities, focusses on loving self (that original sin), instead of fearing and loving God. God is using these events to shake the nations.
.
Christians, step back and pray.
17
"As Mr. Nye once explained to Chinese university students, “the best propaganda is not propaganda,” because during the Information Age, “credibility is the scarcest resource.”"
Interesting point. I'd like to think that is true, and I used to think that was so, but since 2016, my confidence has been deeply shaken. I was taught to listen to both sides, and even now I try, but it is clear that some people are just sellouts to their respective ideologies. Based on some of the comments I read, I fear that rather than wanting to know the truth, many people just want to believe what they want to believe. If it were religion, maybe I could understand.
In the venue of world opinion, it is probably mostly that the majority of people outside of China and Hong Kong have little or no stake in these matters so they can sense what is wrong more objectively.
China probably would have gained more support if they had used this as a "teaching moment" about the ills of capitalism -- that was one of the main reasons Mao was so successful in 1949. The foundations of Chinese culture are largely capitalism on steroids. Without any restraints (either by culture or by law or both), it is a ruthless road to serfdom.
5
@Wayne: I agree with a lot in your thoughtful comment, but I assure you that outsiders do *not* have a better perspective. You only know what the Western press is telling you, and they assume and miss so much. I am not making a claim for accuracy for the Chinese press or commenters, however. They don’t have the whole picture either.
2
@Wayne Dawson “rather than wanting to know the truth, many people just want to believe what they want to believe.” It happens everywhere in the world but nobody thinks he is one of them.
As a Chinese, I think the western media is pretty arrogant and actually has little interest in Hong Kong. What they are interested is that Hong Kong is another example of how bad the Chinese government is. The Chinese government, sounds like a villain in a superhero movie, whose job is only to be evil and to be beaten up by the superhero. A lot of things on China are cartooned in this way. No wonder why their news is always popular as the Justice League.
I feel so sorry for the HK people, because the west who they are longing for and trust so much doesn't care about them and the Chinese government who cares a lot is hated by them. Their life is not cartoon, their superhero maybe never appears.
4
Actually Kimmy, many of us care deeply for the people of Hong Kong and the great city itself. You need to look more deeply at the actions of your government to understand why we are incensed. Agreements with the PRC aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
Once the people of the PRC wake up to the fact that making money is no more important (if not less important) than the right to self-determination and free expression, the world will become a much better place. And just because people in places near China are of mainland descent, it doesn’t mean they should have to be a part of the PRC. They don’t like or want the PRC system. They’re just afraid to say it because your government threatens them militarily.
Don’t you find it interesting that people around the world,including across Asia want true representative government, not the Chinese approach? Or, perhaps you don’t realize that. A country that was truly powerful and confident would let Taiwan and Hong King make their own decisions about their future, not force it on them.
1
China's failed attempt at soft power illustrates why they desperately need Hong Kong as a bridge to the west. The One Country, Two Systems arrangement benefits China by allowing not only a conduit for trade, but also for soft power. The British essentially gave China the gift of a small city-state with an effective court and banking system.
China should not crush that gift, but embrace it. It allows them to keep a tight hold on the Chinese populace, while using Hong Kong as a smiling, business friendly face to do business with the rest of the world. Even if you are a hardcore, dogmatic Chinese follower of Marxist doctrine, one may realize that had the Soviet Union had a Hong Kong, it might still be around.
Here is how you save face, China. Order Carrie Lam to back down, quietly. Allow free elections in Hong Kong, and continue to provide for its external defense while reaping the benefits of its free wheeling ways to benefit your own project on the mainland. The protestors don't want independence, they are not stupid, they just want China to uphold the one country two systems arrangement.
12
Did anyone notice the Chinese Communist Party yearning for Soft Power in Xingjiang? Or Tibet? Li Yuan... you are mistaken. The CCP is not interested in Soft Power-- all though it will take it if it can be bought over the internet. On the other hand it will continue to use guns to retain real power, no matter the cost to its "soft power".
In HK the CCP is just biding its time to see if the protesters will melt away. If they do not, the CCP will use the same power it used to butcher millions during the Cultural Revolution, the same power it used to butcher thousands in Tienanmen Square. The only concern the CCP has with soft power is internal-- the Chinese people realizing that the CCP is not China, that is terrifying. The CCP will use soft power / propaganda tools to insure the people of China stand behind its dictatorship, for as long as that works. And then, as always, they will retain power through the barrel of a gun.
14
The following from Chap 59 of the Dream of the Red Chamber best illustrates the Chinese style of governing/government for the next 3000 years:
paragraph 16 from
https://www.hygx.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=584&page=6#pid4134
Whomever happens to be part of China (the "original sin" a la Chinese style) shall be subject to Chinese rule and Chinese rule only. The mere existence of protests/protesters is lèse-majesté, evidenced by the true story from 1758 under Emperor Qian Long (one of the best emperors from Imperial China), because to be born as a Chinese is the best possible thing that could ever happen to a mere mortal; therefore to harbor any grievance, discontent, etc., immediately makes that individual unworthy as a human being. The rest is either history or should be non-history.
1
The CCP does not have any soft power at all. They eliminated private ownership, destroyed cultural relics and burned books, persecuted the learned and wise during the Cultural Revolution. Ironically, they usurped the name of Confucius for their soft power institutes.
What the CCP have is weapon and violence. Therefore, what they can export is nothing but jingoism, stupidity and vulgarity, which is the lowest of low in the Chinese culture.
The CCP's "soft power" is promoted by money only, without any moral principle or respect, and destined to fail.
9
@JH : if you are trying to make a point about modern China, then you are demonstrably wrong. The Chinese middle class are buying their homes. Property disputes with those who fled Communist China are being addressed. Goodness, where do you get all this misinformation?
PS Don’t forget also, that Hong Kong is under a different system, which is essentially the old British Colonial one which always had (some) property rights. Many commenters (and many articles) fail to realise this distinction.
4
RIP American soft-power because of Trump
5
“Going forward, we will not accept advertising from state-controlled news media entities,” Twitter announced on Monday afternoon.
What exactly amounts to a “state controlled” media will be “informed by established academic and civil society leaders in this space,” Twitter said.
The devil, as usual, is in the details. The policy will not apply to “taxpayer-funded entities, including independent public broadcasters,” the company said, in language that seems tailor-made for outlets such as the BBC or Voice of America (VOA), and seems both broad and flexible at the same time, to the point of being arbitrary.
The authorities Twitter intends to rely on in defining “state media” were listed as Reporters Without Borders, the Committee to Protect Journalists, the UK-based Economist magazine’s Intelligence Unit, the Dutch-based European Journalism Centre, UNESCO, and the US government-funded NGO Freedom House.
HAHAHAHA! Twitter will rely on Freedom House, funded through one of the CIA’s NGO projects, will advise @Twitter on who is and isn’t “state-controlled.”
You can't make this stuff up.
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@James
Freedom House isn’t controlled by the CIA. They are partially funded by a grant from then National Endowment for Democracy. The NED is a public grant-making organization very similar to the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) and the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH).
Freedom House is very transparent of its funding and has often criticized the US government. It has repeatedly shown editorial independence and is not connected to the CIA in any way.
Give up on your propaganda.
9
The definition of "state controlled" can be summed up by Justice Potter Stewart's definition of obscenity - "I know it when I see it".
@James
Not familiar with VOA, but BBC surely follows journalistic integrity norms. Global times and the other China-supported media-not at all. Propaganda flat out. Comparing apples to oranges here. And for your assertions about Freedom House, any evidence on that? Otherwise sounds like the kooky "black hand" of the US involvement theories. Anyone who is in HK and has HK friends knows that the support is local, deep, and authentic.
1
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/sunday-review/the-war-of-words-in-china.html
Here is a NYT writer who apparently found that SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET posted things about him that he didn't like. So he frames an entire article insinuating that the big bad Chinese govt was somehow behind it. Now this is true disinformation.
Yet the NYT narrative here derides and dismisses any possibility of US involvement in Hong Kong, despite the fact that such "interventions" are a well-known playbook of American foreign policy. Ask Nuland in Ukraine or Iran. Or Chile or Guatemala or Congo. American diplomats have been shown meeting with protest leaders. Three protest leaders flow to see Mike Pence in Washington. The evidence is far stronger than anything Andrew Jacobs had when blaming China for controlling wikipedia.
Somehow I suspect the NYT is in no hurry to uncover any actual evidence linking the US to Hong Kong though. Call it a hunch.
14
@James: as a westerner in HK, I also thought that the Chinese government was overplaying their complaints, and then I read a US diplomat (Chas Freeman) talking about how the US fomented unrest in Tibet and tried in Xinjiang. So, I don’t have facts, but I wouldn’t rule it out, especially based on what you just pointed out. I have heard many tales on the ground of young protesters running around with lots of MTR (metro) cards and supermarket vouchers. So there is money behind the dedicated protesters (not the marchers), wherever it is coming from.
Winning the media war is no guarantee of truth (just look at Trump).
7
@Andrew and @James
Hi just to clear up a few things, many older Hong Kong people who do not dare to risk going to the front, donated to these folks. Last time I went to a station to drop the metro cards (just about US$1000 worth, from a few friends) I had to line up. We all chipped in. While I won't rule out foreign donations I still witness a lot of local-driven fund raising.
Just from the street booths on 8.18 around the demonstration area, one single non-profit established to provide medical and legal aide to those participated in the protests, received over US$1.1 million (8m HKD) in donations.
7
Given how this article defines "soft power" as the ability to distort facts to suit their political agenda, of course China does not have as much "soft power" as the United States. Americans are professionals in this propaganda business with a century of experience. China is merely a newcomer, following the simple old principle of not caring what foreigners think. The English media is completely dominated by the US and its allies. China's English news is still green and only a drop is an overwhelming sea of negativity.
When you read these comments and find such misinformed judgments about China, with no basis in fact but coated in buzzwords like "freedom" and "democracy", you can clearly see hallmarks of Trump-style campaigning.
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It doesn't take a brainwashed dupe to not sympathize with a crowd that calls you locusts - I think all the comments suggesting the mainlanders are docile or uninformed is pretty unfair, not to mention condescending. There is more than a little strain of rejection of Chinese sovereignty in these protests, whether anyone admits it or not.
HK may or may not have a system of governance separate from the rest of China but it will never be allowed to be independent from China. Not if you want to have any legitimacy in governing China. Anyone arguing otherwise on any grounds just doesn't understand China; and there is no amount of messaging that can bridge that gap. And this is where miscalculations might eventually lead to tragedy.
Also, if this was truly about universal ideals and values, and everyone agrees HK is and should be part of China, why don't they march for democracy for all of China? I would be much more impressed if that was one of the 5 demands. So I don't really put them on par w/ the Tiananmen generation.
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@Snoopy
Hi there! Neither you or I can represent majority of what HK people. What I am seeing on the ground, being here physically, is that we are asking for withdrawal of extradition bill, accountability of the government and the police, and an independent review of the alleged police brutality, and well, the right to vote for our government.
The last point is the sore point I get it, but most people I hear do not seek independence... it might be sound nice, but it's like you think your employer should pay you a million but you know it's not unrealistic and settle for what's reasonable. You see, asking for China or HK independence is a ridiculous claim so most of us won't even go there. I am not sure why you'd even suggest that.
The Chinese people should be entitled to vote and be a Democracy. They deserve better wages, and health insurance in addition to affordable housing. Hong Kong is a brave country & should be independent. Hopefully the scared people in Beijing will rise for freedom as well and protest in support of the hard working Hong Kong people.
5
@George HongKong is not a COUNTRY and has never been. The differences between HongKong and Mainland China do not necessarily justify its independence. And the fuse of the protest was because a HK murderer couldn't be appropriately punished due to the lack of Extraction Law between Taiwan and Hongkong, and has nothing to do with wages or housing. The protest was definitely escalating due to some social conflicts happening in HK, but I don't know why does that relate to people in Beijing.
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@George The Chinese people have the righ to choose what they want. OK? And I am sorry to CORRECT you that HK is part of China. No one want to be next Syria.
4
@Sasha: and the bill has been abandoned, so the protests are not actually addressing a real problem.
Despite some problems, especially an overheated property market (which has parallels in New York and Mumbai), HK people have a good standard of living, great public transport, public housing (if you can get on the list), cheap government healthcare... We also have rule of law and elections to the legislative council. I have lived in London, Seattle, Boston and San Francisco, and have spent time in Tokyo and New York, so I know what I am talking about.
3
In 1989 the world watched the Tiananmen Square Massacre. Tanks rolled up and fired on student demonstrators. Estimates of death tolls vary from several thousand to several hundreds with several thousands injured. The mainly students demonstrated to end corruption in the Communist Party, democratic reforms, freedom of press, freedom of speech, freedom of association. Am I showing my age? Or does anyone else feel like they are holding their breath? I am in awe of the Hong Kong people.
52
@Scott: I really must stop rising to the bait, but it is so disturbing to see people like you praise these protests without any true understanding of that is going on in Hong Kong. You have decided on the narrative and you are applying it without discernment. Th
Remember the “weapons of mass destruction”? All the clever people said that Iraq was developing them, because that was what people thought *should* be the case. They were fed convincing lines by someone who wanted regime change and the whole media jumped on the bandwagon.
.
But... these protests are *not* “a people yearning to be free”, or whatever cliché you choose to apply. Really. I live here. I know people and I know the situation. This is more of a MAGA Brexit, where people have some often vague dissatisfaction with government. Most are marching just to give government a bloody eye.
Remember,
1. the HK Govt is *not* an unrepresentative authoritarian regime.
2. HK people have *not* been losing freedoms, the government listened and the extradition treaty has been removed,
3. our police are not jack-booted thugs, but are dedicated professionals, *most* of whom are doing a good job to maintain law and order in a situation where society is breaking down.
4. These protesters are deliberately doing damage to our city. Hong Kong may never recover.
5. The Chinese Central Government is only involved because of the breakdown of law and order, and did not initiate the legislation that was used to spark the standoff.
7
@Andrew, your condescension and claims to 'know' are laughable. Your take is completely wrong.
I am here, too. I am a Hong Konger.
Remember,
1. the HK govt IS an unrepresentative regime. the 'functional' constituencies are designed to not be representative and to 'elect' CCP friendlies. In the election after the occupy protests, multiple geographically were 'disqualified' and prevented from serving.
2. yes people are losing freedom of speech and freedom of assembly as we speak but it's more fear of losing even more freedoms such as freedom of the press, freedom of movement and freedom of thought-the current situation of our sisters in brothers in the mainland as we look over across the border.
3. the police used to be excellent, those dealing with protests are unfortunately between a rock and a hard place due to the govt and are behaving thuggishly. So many documented cases of this from independent press.
4. the current chief executive is damaging our city. HK society is not breaking down. Where else do you see protestors cleaning up after themselves--99.9% of the protestors are brave, law-abiding people speaking up before it's too late
5. the CCP always has a say in what goes on--witness Carrie Lam's silence to the question "Do you have the autonomy to withdraw the bill?" She does not. She made the mess-her misguided judgement, but the CCP is controlling her responses and they are ill advised.
30
the legislation has NOT been removed, just suspended.
freedom of speech has suffered massively since 1997.
the HK govt is more interested in keeping Beijing happy then the citizens of HK. and the top leaders cannot be selected by the citizens of HK. HK’s govt is therefore partially authoritarian.
11
Given all the tyrannical actions that the CCP has done—from the horrors of the Cultural Revolution to the imprisonment of political dissidents to the Uighur concentration camps...
The CCP quoting Martin Niemöller’s poem has got to be the pinnacle of unintentional irony.
40
@Scott: or it is time to review what you think you know about a country...
Remember to ask Trump for his favourite Niemöller quotes next time you see him.
1
@Andrew
Perhaps we can stop the whataboutism and focus on what's being discussed here? What do you think about CCP, without adding any flavors of US/Trump?
7
When one has only ever lived under authoritarianism, it shows up in the language. Their arguments are limited to hyperbolic retorts ("anti-China" "traitor"), predictable canned responses ("millions out of poverty" "they were never democratic") whataboutism deflections, with specific recurrent vocabulary ("western" "arrogant").
The more recent embarrassments, a botched understanding and interpretation of Niemöller's poem, coupled with counter-protest violence almost exclusively from "patriots" using their free speech to wave communist flags in foreign democratic countries, calling dissenters traitors with a nationalistic fervor bordering on religious hysteria, reveals a horrifying lack of education in what fascism and authoritarianism is. But then, when the president of a country that actually defeated the confederacy and nazis, implicitly sides with them, all bets are off. I feel nothing but compassion and empathy for those fighting for a free Hong Kong. I hope our next president actually values human rights more than the bottom dollar.
P.S. Please contact your representatives to co-Sponsor the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019, house bill H.R. 3289 and senate bill S. 1838.
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@Heq Banana
Paragraph 16 from Chap 59 of the Dream of Red Chamber is highly illustrative of how the Chinese ever ruled their own species:
https://www.hygx.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=584&page=6#pid4134
Furthermore, this historical event from 1758 under the Good emperor Qianlong illustrates how the ruler really views any protesters, legitimate or not:
https://kknews.cc/history/b3x326.html
The CCP spends all its resources to ensure its own people that to be born as a Chinese is the best possible thing that could ever happen to a mortal. Therefore to harbor any discontent, grievances, etc. is really not worthy to be a human being any more. Anything that CCP disfavors must be garbage or poison.
2
@Heq banana: this legislation is a knee-jerk response by legislators who seem to only care about optics and believe wrong information about HK, urged by a few in Hong Kong who are damaging the city without any clear aim, but feel that they would benefit from more pain in HK. (Remember that the excoriated Bill has been removed and HKers have the same freedoms that we ever had, so there is not much point)
.
This legislation will only damage Hong Kong (which is, as I keep having to point out, a different system from China). Any company making investment decisions now will probably go elsewhere, and these things do not come back. Rents are tumbling and small businesses are in a lot of pain. No wonder the businesses in Hong Kong are asking for the protests to stop. And don’t forget that damage to US investments in HK will also do damage to your economy - all adding to the Trump recession... Sigh... this all seems like a futile exercise of cutting off our nose to spite our face.
1
@Andrew
not "a few in Hong Kong". Overwhelming support. 1 in 4 citizens at the last rally in temps of 100+--imagine all the others who had to work or were too ill. The protestors have overwhelming support of the people of Hong Kong.
6
Mainland China and Nazi Germany is much more apt a comparison. Both countries depend on an elaborate propaganda apparatus and although in the 1930's Germany had to rely on the fact that outside news was already limited and easily overwhelmed by home-brewed lies, Xi's Great Firewall has done the same in this internet age. There is also no democratic tradition in China, which for thousands of years was and still is a country ruled by an Emperor; it's their only model. Even it Hong Kong, it probably took several generations for Western ideals to seep into the general consensus. Still, I feel sorry for those mainlanders who do have some curiosity about the outside world and are thwarted by the party-beholden pod-people around them.
31
“slogan diplomacy”
The CCP have been at it for quite a while now.
Remember the “East is red”? Soon to be the
“East is again red with the blood of students”
9
It is clear now that the current trade war is taking such a toll on the Chinese economy and public opinion that China has opted to "release the Nationalist Fervor" and take the soft power hit just to keep things going. Whipping the chattering Internet into a froth about Hong Kong is far better than having them bemoan the cancelled orders and delayed payrolls that are now the norm in China. By any measure the anti-Hong Kong sentiments are being poorly delivered to the international community, but as a pressure release on domestic concerns this is functioning as desired.
18
@Bob Smith
I would have argued that even Xi's misdirection would wear out when people began to realize that their stomachs were growling, but looking at our own country, where millions continue to cheer a President who cheated them out of a tax cut, made innumerable promises he'll never keep, and in that thing he calls a heart, despises them as dolts - precisely because they continue to believe him! The fact that they are willing to overlook all these insults, even a decline in their physical welfare, solely out of tribal instincts, does not bode well for the human race.
2
China has had a glorious past. It is a vast country with lots of history.
But it is not civil. Whatever civility it had, came to an abrupt end with the rise of Communism. In spite of being wealthy, it is very much insecure. Insecure nations CANNOT project soft power.
To project soft power a nation MUST be confident. It MUST allow free discussion and self-criticisms. To not do that and to stifle people can NEVER help a nation to grow.
China, like many other nations, has flaws. Without free discussion, a flaw will not be acknowledged. Unless acknowledged, a flaw will remain uncorrected.
Also, a free discussion helps in transparency. Without democracy, there is NO free discussion and NO transparency.
Democracy is UNLIKELY to occur in China. Hence no transparency. Hence no free discussion. Hence no admission and correction of flaws.
To project soft power China HAS to find out what flaws they have that are not allowing to project soft power.
The absence of democracy and the ability to project soft power are mutually contradictory. China, in its current form, will NEVER be able to have a soft power that the US currently has.
The ability of the US to project soft power is currently in jeopardy though because of Trump.
56
@S. Roy Too bad you had to devolve into Trump at the end. Irrelevant to the article and the discussion on HK and China.
2
The problem is not that the world is not receptive to Chinese culture and history - e.g. Sydney is just one of the many cities outside China and its diaspora which has major Chinese New Year celebrations - it is that we are not receptive to Chinese COMMUNIST culture and values. We congratulate the Party for seeing the correct path and bringing economic prosperity to hundreds of millions of its citizens, but a number of people have been predicting for over a decade that eventually a point would be reached where the values of the Party would conflict with the further economic and political evolution of China and the rest of the world and it appears we have now reached that point.
18
@george pappas
Few people I know are "receptive to Chinese Communist culture and values". It was the Party (under Mao) that decimated the Chinese economy. It was the Party that killed millions in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
4
In a country where rural citizens cannot freely move to cities for a better life, i.e. China, the Fast and Furious wannabes get to live overseas, enjoy all the clean air, water, non-poisoned baby formula/medication plus open society privileges they want. But how dare anybody else want freedom, right?
63
Beijing lacks soft power because it really never needed it. It rules by fear and intimidation. People disappear, and family is lucky to get a corpse back. I wouldn't put past them another massacre, Times Square Massacre, Hong Kong.
28
"American mass media and other cultural exports increase people’s familiarity and warmth with the country’s ideals."
Speaking of propaganda.
3
China needs to learn from India.
They clamped down on Kashmir and made it disappear from the world news headlines within a few days.
No internet, no cell phones, no protests.
Mission accomplished.
And by the way, Kashmir has a bigger area and bigger population than HK.
All their experience in Tibet and with the Uighur, and this is the best they can do.
What a weak totalitarian, being bested by Democratic India.
2
Main land China has all the power any nation could ever want or use yet appears more and more as 'The Cowardly Lion'.
16
The people of Hong Kong are up against a lot. They’ve been fighting for almost 1/4 of a year now and Beijing appears to be desperate to get people to believe their false narrative. I hope that the people of Hong Kong win in the fight against autocracy.
84
@Ben Brown
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/world/asia/hong-kong-protests-identity-china-edward-leung.html
"A group called Hong Kong Indigenous, in which Mr. Leung was a leading activist, began harassing mainland shoppers in what it called “retake” actions. Hong Kong’s colonial-era flag became a banner of resistance in what at times became an ugly xenophobic campaign against mainlanders, with some Hong Kongers dehumanizing them as “locusts.” "
And there you have it. The truth of what these protesters really are and what they are about. Hong Kong's answer to Trump supporters.
In the 80s and 90s, Hong Kong was the most prosperous Chinese city and served as China’s window to the outside world. Now it has lost that special status and its GDP has fallen behind neighboring Shenzhen, a former fish village and other major Chinese cities on the mainland. For the longest time Hong Kongers looked down on their mainland cousins as country bumpkins, but as their fortunes stagnated and the mainlanders became the new Beverly Hillbillies they became resentful. Like besieged Trump supporters they fall back on their identity as a source of superiority. For Hong Kongers it’s their British colonial identity. Make Hong Kong great again?
12
@James: spot on.
To others reading, note that this is a perspective that you will not hear from the Western press or from China and you should take note of it. As I keep saying, these protests are at heart a MAGA Brexit thing, but the Western Press prefers the fairy tale analysis.
6
@James
No resentment here. That is not at all what this is about. Yes there is some ugly anti-mainlander sentiment. Condemn that completely.
Nothing Maga-ish here. We just want to be able to have freedom of thought, speech, and religion. Look at the many people who have gotten on the current Beijing's leadership's bad side. They all end up arrested for some crime (sometimes kidnapped from other places like Hong Kong). All convicted. No justice to be found in mainland court system. We don't want to live that way-always worried that b/c some powerful communist party member wants us to do x (hire their child or sell them our house) and we don't do it, that we are then arrested one trumped up charges and destroyed. That's the reality of life in China and that's what we fear.
8