Businesses do profit from undocumented immigration because they can pay low wages. Most citizens and workers do not don’t receive any benefit from this exploitation. Let’s face it prices do not drop because labor costs are low. That becomes profit to the business owners - who don’t pay enough taxes anyway. Because wages are stagnant, municipalities are not receiving the tax revenues they need to provide services. Schools are not receiving sufficient tax revenue to provide a decent education. The undocumented will remain a permanent underclass - and this is something no society needs.
78
No, they will not be a permanent under-class. They come here because they are ambitious. The cleaning ladies at my office have children who have done very well in school & are attending the best universities. Their Mom’s work all day & night cleaning offices and clean houses on the weekends. The Dad’s work at meat packing plants. They invest everything in their kids.
43
@Maureen--Of course prices are lower because wages are low! If the fruit growers had to pay their pickers three or four or five times as much in order to get the fruit picked, do you really think prices would remain the same? You say "prices do not drop because labor costs are low," but in fact our food prices have never *risen* to equal costs in many countries because our agriculture is built on the backs of grossly underpaid workers. Like it or not, we all--every one of us who buys groceries--are benefitting from the low wages that are paid to undocumented workers, which keep our food costs artificially low.
48
@Mary Sampson
If the immigrants will not be a permanent under-class, some other group will have to take its economic place. Somebody will wind up cleaning offices.
Perhaps we will not have a permanent underclass. People will fall into the underclass and work their way out again, so the underclass is not permanent or inherited.
Personally, I think we should get rid of our underclass, so that the only people there for more than a short time are those who want to be there.
6
"Agriculture could not exist without an immigrant work force". Really? We have all been told over and over again that immigrants will take the jobs that supposedly "Americans don't want". But consider the example of the meatpacking industry. The plants busted by ICE in Alabama were paying their employees a measly sum of about $10.50 per hour. Fifty years ago, proud union workers were paid an inflation adjusted $25 per hour to do this (see a public television documentary from 2008). Economics tells us that when you have a shortage of something (like labor), the law of supply and demand will drive up the cost of that thing. Instead, the price has plummeted. Clearly, what has happened is that union busting, and exploitation of illegal immigrants has been used to drive down wages and drive out unions so that only people living illegally in the US at great risk of deportation could be coerced into accepting inhumane, dangerous conditions at a level of pay that leaves them no extra money to cover an extra expense like a medical bill. And now Trump proposes to penalize these exploited people for daring to use public funds to survive.
I think that immigrants ought to be self sufficient, but our hypocritical immigrant exploitation system demands they toil at unlivable wages.
American citizens and legal immigrants will do this work, if it again paid $25 per hour. We can afford this, labor is only a small portion of the price of meat, which we ate plenty of 50 years ago.
113
@Hydraulic Engineer -When hiring undocumented workers starts costing companies more than it saves them, illegal immigration will be reduced by 90% and wages for Americans doing the work will climb. Of course, so will the prices of the finished products. That is just fine, since the Americans getting paid more money to do the work will have more money to buy the products.
53
@WeHadAllBetterPayAttentionNow So you're saying that if we eliminate a part of the economy that's still in the Great Depression then we will get inflation?
1
@WeHadAllBetterPayAttentionNow
Sounds 'ideal' and I wish it were so.
However, here is what Trump would find ideal:
- Pay workers as little as possible
- Charge consumers as much as possile
- Make as much money as possible
It's called oligarchy, and unfortunately that's what a lot of our economy is looking like
24
When will we get off this bandwagon that says we need to endlessly grow our population?
In 1980 we had 226 million people. Today we have 329 million.
We have record numbers of homeless. 47% of Detroit kids were poor in 1989. Today it's 60%.
We can't keep our infrastructure from collapsing. We can't provide citizens with clean water. Cities like NYC can't ensure that public housing isn't contaminated with lead. Buildings that once had dedicated work crews now have rats climbing to the upper floors via the stopped up trash shoots. And there are waiting lists for those apartments.
We do not need more people. We also do not need more poor people.
97
@Talbot
We can do every single one of those things, and improve every one of those problems, but the priority is tax cuts for billionaire "persons" (people and companies), and secondarily tanks for the military (which doesn't want them).
Surely you remember the Big Payoff tax law passed in December 2017?
38
@Talbot We could probably deal with all these infrastructure issues if we actually invested in this country and not, instead, supported the military industrial complex. Our country will rot from within while we made shiny new death machines. Ironically, we will get taken down by cyber warfare, not tanks. We spend much of our resources preparing for the previous war.
25
@Talbot In 1950 the population was 150 million. Those were the days! Now we have intolerable traffic, loss of wildlife habitat, loss of open spaces and farmland, overdevelopment. You can't be pro-immigration and an environmentalist...just doesn't make sense. How many articles have the NYT published recently on human overpopulation? None I believe but every day there are bleeding-heart articles on immigrants. Legal immigration has to be reduced and illegal immigration must be stopped. For me, immigration has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with overpopulation.
34
"Between April 2018 and this March, though, the government did not prosecute any companies for hiring undocumented workers".
If we want to argue as to why, apparently, this country cannot come up with a reasonable immigration policy--one which would include a well organized guest worker program, one which would treat asylum seekers quickly and professionally, and one in which there would be a simple, step-by-step process to citizenship for those desiring it--we can start with that sentence right there. Our oligarchs want to have a steady supply of "illegal" workers they can underpay and exploit to aggrandize their profits, and since they buy our politicians with their campaign contributions, they get what they wish.
A sane immigration policy would have to acknowledge the rights to decent working conditions, reasonable minimum wages, even union protections--and no self-respecting economic "maker" wants any of those. Far better to exploit "foreign" workers and blame the ever expanding income gap on them--it distracts anyone who might be thinking about breaking out torches and pitchforks in gated communities.
130
@Jeff - Where is Democratic Party policy on this issue you speak of? There is none, and as a result Trump has free reign.
27
@Jeff
I think you have two mistakes. First, E-Verify is significantly unreliable. Second, it is not needed in order to prosecute businesses. If the government wanted to prosecute Koch Foods, all it had to do was use the same evidence it had to justify arresting all those workers. The failure is a policy, not a weakness.
35
@Craig H.
"Rein", please. It's bad enough without Trump's having "reign".
But what are the Democrats to do? So far, Trump ignores the House and McConnell blocks them in the Senate. (Maybe "reign" was the right word.)
11
I have to assume the Trump and his billionaire cabinet assume that if you're not rich you're either stupid and/or lazy. From where I sit, the opposite is true. Second generation rich are often stupid and lazy--Trump certainly is.
The public charge is covering the myth that immigrants don't pull their own weight. We know that's not true because they contribute billions to our tax base--withdrawing less than the give.
10
How strange is it that Americans have no problem at invading other countries with their economy. In fact all the biggest US corporations are registered fiscally in Europe ( not in the USA ) because they can cheat and pay no taxes while invading the European markets with the crudest dishonesty and monopoly .
There are no frontiers for money and enterprise, they go in other countries, buy companies, don't respect the contracts they have signed ( GE with Alstom in France ) , destroy them, fire employees with the most dishonest practices. No problem.
But they cannot stand people trying to come work in the USA, that they use like donkeys anyway, with absolutely no human dignity in the work ethics.
2
Americans are completely illiterate in economy.
Economy is the way money exchanges are done, not making money.
Americans never read Marx . it is considered a taboo. So they are completely ignorant about how the capitalist economy works.
If they employers were the ones who were arrested and charged for hiring undocumented immigrants it likely would change change this picture rather drastically.
But of course the wealthy employers are the ones paying the politicians and those at the top. So, as usual, the ones at the bottom of the economic ladder end up bearing the brunt of these arrests, and paying dearly for just wanting a better life.
4
Always has been, always will be, until the working people find a way to take charge.
2
If we exploit immigrants, then why are so many desperate to come, sometimes even risking their lives crossing the Arizona desert on foot in the summer? Why is there a long waiting list for immigrant visas?
This sort of anti-US, anti-capitalist rhetoric just looks ridiculous when confronted with that reality.
1
@Jonathan Katz because you have exploited their countries into ruin for decades. Or centuries.
6
@Jonathan Katz
Nope. Not ridiculous at all. As you say it is simply reality. Exploitation and coercion. The two essential tools of the trade for government and business.
2
Totally agree. I’m not going to deny that America is partly a nation of immigrants but that is simply not the whole picture as this piece points out. The truth is this entire planet is lucky despite the blatant exploitation that America and the rest of world is guilty of for the past 250 years or so. It’s almost unbelievable how America is simultaneously a pressure cooker and a pressure valve when it comes to migration. The solution, yet clearly also the problem. Where is the pressure for any nation that has sent millions of its citizens to America to reform the societies? Italy, Ireland, pre 1871 Germany, Mexico, Britain, etc. they are all took tremendous advantage of America. America is the welfare state for the entire planet. This seems bound to fail. And it is failing now.
2
Throw a few company CEO's in jail for hiring illegal immigrants and watch how fast everything changes.
14
"One man, one vote" is the founding political ethos of America.
Ir means to each individual the same rights.
It hasn't been followed fully as the dire example of history of slavery is ample evidence.
Nonetheless this is the core value from which all other values in America stem from : generosity, opportunity, sacrifice, patriotism, giving to the community, work ethics, etc…
In this sense American History can be seen as "progression", albeit unfair and bumpy, to say the least (and too often in a bloody manner).
Still the key word remains "progression".
Stating legal immigrants hare not entitled to the same rights as others is just another way to tell Americans they live in a "democracy" where all are not treated equally by law.
Un-Americanism at its best.
Maybe it's not a surprise anymore…
2
“Agriculture could not exist without an immigrant work force.” Does Saporito mean that agriculture as we know it could not exist or that agriculture in any form could not exist without, essentially, serfdom?
Later, Saporito wrings his hands over the decrease in birthrate and argues that we need immigrants to perpetually increase population and grow the economy.
Perhaps, on this finite, overpopulated planet with its finite resources, we instead need to shift to an economy built neither on exploitation nor growth.
11
This is the crux of the issue, miraculously ignored by almost every discussion on immigration. Well-meaning neoliberals rightly decry the racism of anti-immigrant rhetoric, while ignoring the fact that "our country needs immigrants" solely because bosses won't pay first-world wages for farm and factory jobs, and so they import a labor force from the forcibly impoverished global south. Who benefits from the manipulation of international industry to ensure that people in the global south are forced to leave their homes to find jobs?
No one should be forbidden from making a life for themselves in a country other than the one they were born in. But neither should anyone be forced to leave home to earn enough money to survive.
12
@sparrow pellegrini
Yes yes a thousand times yes. But alas look at immigration historically in the US and Europe did nothing to stop its people from leaving. It’s a giant racket for the nations involved.
1
Sadly, irrational fear of the "other" is driving support for wrong immigration policy benefiting no one, least of all the biggest supporters (presumably) middle class Americans thinking immigrants are taking their jobs or tax dollars. It's actually opposite, the proposed changes to the immigration policy will cause exactly that. Not prosecuting the employers will lead to more exploitation as the article correctly notes endangering our safety in food and other industries. To have native born Americans to do those jobs, the wages will have to raise, with them the prices or, alternatively, the taxes to pay for better safety net, so that wages are kept low, but working poor can survive. Instead a legal option of a combination of guest worker visas and some kind of citizenship path could ease low skill labor shortage. Welcoming only high skilled and well off immigrants will definitely increase competition for good white collar and knowledge jobs in desirable locations putting the same native born middle class people, especially those not living in big cities, in a disadvantage. It also will not lead to revitalizing depressed communities, as better off skilled migrants will likely go to more desirable places. While merit-based system definitely should be considered, it's not a one size fits all answer (US is not Canada either, not to mention Canada has a mixed system). Immigration system should consider needs and realities of US labor market and social contract.
4
There are some who want to end immigration and some who want open borders. For the rest of us, we would like a legal and compassionate immigration policy that is enforced. We are a country of laws that should be transparent and respected. Immigration by whim is not an alternative.
13
There are obviously many things in America, including immigration, that need to be fixed without breaking more. Someone please tell the Trumpists, including the off-the-rails occupier in the White House, that destruction without consideration of consequences is not "fixing" anything. Chaos only causes more chaos. Enough already!
We need to resume the draft and once the military is fully and cheaply staffed with conscripts, assign the rest to local, state and federal agencies followed by retailers, warehouses, factories and farms that are essential for the economy and a rising stock market.
1
When Governor Pete Wilson tried to limited immigrants from coming into California the people who objected were the mainly Republican big farmers. They wanted access to the workers. Either we make employers pay for using undocumented worker or we should acknowledge we want such workers and send ICE home.
8
It is finally being openly acknowledged that employers have been using illegal immigrant labor, across whole industries, in order to cut wages and scrimp on health-and-safety standards. This has been a growing practice for decades, and has pushed Americans out of these jobs. If we can't off-shore the job to the third world, bring the third-world here to do the job.
To add insult to injury, we are told that Americans refuse to do these jobs because they are lazy, weak and spoiled. Desperate illegals will take these underpaid jobs, even if they have to live in crowded, inadequate housing and work in dangerous conditions. Illegals don't dare demand higher pay or better working conditions.
E-Verify should be mandated immediately. Why is it that we punish the workers, but employers are not being held responsible for the exploitation and unfair labor practices? Once again, the wealthy 1% run roughshod over the American worker and victimize minority immigrants for PROFIT.
This is unjust treatment both of American citizens and immigrants but our government and our leaders tolerate it. We meekly accept that they are bought and paid for by the rich.
18
@Madeline Conant In 1978 I walked into the Massachusetts Labor Dept. looking for a seasonal job picking apples. At first the guy tried to get rid of me, saying that the employers did not want Americans as they were lazy and would quit at the first adversity. When I insisted he sent me to a farm where I worked hard, spent a pleasant month and then took my money and spent the winter on the beach in Mexico - legally. You say that young United Statesians want these jobs. You have got to be kidding me.
4
@Chuck Burton
No, I am not kidding you. I'm not saying US employees want these jobs as they stand now, but if illegals were not available, employers would have to raise wages to meet the true market demand. This is one of the reasons why blue collar jobs have stagnated for decades.
13
Border between the U.S. and Canada is OK. But why is the border between the U.S. and Mexico not OK?
These immigrants come to the U.S. primarily to escape problems in their native countries (Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama) which includes a stagnant economy, high levels of crime, political corruption and widespread drug use. There is a legal way to request a green card to enter the U.S., however unlawful mobs entry is not allowed. Shame and disgrace of all these central American countries and their governments who fail to feed their people, to give them medical care, good housing, and jobs. These central American countries and their governments are the ones at fault.
Sorry that your country does not love you anymore. To find true love you need to find and walk on God’s Holy road which will one day open the gate to His Kingdom in Heaven. The road you are currently walking is man made and will only bring you tears and despair, darkness and regrets.
3
@manoflamancha How sad that you are able to so blithely ignore our country’s historical and continuing role in fomenting these problems. No, it is always the other guy’s fault. And they deserve to be punished over and over again for our sins. As for the US-Canadian border, it is nothing but a terribly expensive and useless nuisance, accomplishing nothing while being a drag on both economies.
@manoflamancha The Trump administration is trying to punish legal immigrants with this new "public charge" rule. Immigrants trying to enter the country legally at official border crossings are being denied entry, or separated from their children and thrown in detention centers that are more like prisons. These are people trying to do things the right way! And the best way our president can think of to curtail immigration is more cruelty--no data needed if it makes people more miserable. This is not leadership, it's sadism.
2
"Anti-immigrant, Pro-Exploitation" (and, in the case of Cuccinelli and so many others of his ilk) "Self-proclaimed Christian"...
3
I would like to know how many farmers and other employers who have had ICE raids on their premises have been charged with illegally hiring people who are not permitted to work in the US.
1
@Chris. That would be none Chris
1
I'd like to hear how the job fairs at these companies turned out. Did they get all those replacement workers hired? Did they check their status? Are the new workers all white? Why aren't the personnel managers at the companies that hired the illegals in jail?
4
If Trump and his minions are really that worried about illegals then WHY won't they go after the people who employ them? If I am hiring illegals and you arrest them, I'll just wait a little while and hire more because there are no consequences. It's the Republican hypocrites (like Trump) who are benefiting and who are opposed to real immigration reform because that would make their costs go up if they had to pay decent wages.
5
I certainly hope the after-effects of this ICE raid don't just fade into the background. For all those Trump-loving red state Mississippians that bought into the premise that these immigrants were depriving them of jobs, well here you go. There should be hundreds of those highly desirable chicken-pickin' jobs available for you now. There's no excuse for you to be on the "public charge" now.
These employers need to be held to account for hiring these undocumented workers also. You can't tell me that hundreds of people just slipped through the cracks of whatever screening process they use to hire people. A few here and there, maybe, but hundreds?
Conducting these raids on the day when a lot of these kids were having their first day of school was a heartless move. That first day can be a traumatic time for many children as it is but to come home to find your parents gone and the door locked is beyond cruel. Welcome to the shining city on the hill, home of the scowling face and the mean tweet; bring money.
5
Reputable sources estimate that there are 10-20 MILLION illegal immigrants in the US.
I believe most Americans welcome LEGAL immigrants, but do not want ILLEGAL immigrants. They recognize that the US cannot afford (or choose not) to support our own citizens: the poor, the ill, elderly, disabled, veterans, et al., and that they and other US taxpayers cannot possibly support the hundreds of millions of foreigners who would like to come here, especially if they are likely to be dependent on taxpayer support (i.e., to become public charges).
US laws allow foreigners to seek entry and citizenship. Those who do not follow these laws are in this country illegally and should be detained and deported; this is policy in other countries, too.
The cruelty lies not in limiting legal immigration, or detaining and deporting illegal immigrants, or forcing those who wish to enter the US to wait for processing. What is cruel, unethical and probably illegal is encouraging parents to bring their children on the dangerous trek to US borders and teaching the parents how to game the system to enter the US by falsely claiming asylum, persecution, etc. Indeed, many believe bringing children on such perilous journeys constitutes child abuse.
No other nation has open borders, nor should the US.
16
@Mon Ray This policy targets people who are legally entering and living in this country. There's nothing revolutionary about claiming that you are only against illegal migration, but there is something hypocritical about it when you champion Trump as strictly adhering to the existing laws. He has attempted to change asylum laws so to make it harder for migrants to legally find refuge here, he is now trying to change our green card policy to stop poor immigrants from coming here legally, and he has even personally said that he would rather more of our immigrants be from countries like Norway.
This is not a law and order narrative, this is about keeping brown people out. Our president's racist rhetoric has indicated this from the start and now he has policy to match. The"as long as it's legal" argument is falling apart.
5
@Mon Ray In 2013 the Senate passed a comprehensive immigration bill with bipartisan support. So what happened to that bill? Ask John Boehner. He wouldn't bring it to the floor of the House for a vote. The same game McConnell is playing in the Senate now with election security and gun control. These people don't really care what's good for this country, it's all a game to them.
5
Although his methods are abhorrent, Trump is right to emphasize the need to get our immigration system under control. As an example, you need look no further than the 11 million plus immigrants now in our country illegally.
It is shameful that neither party over the last few decades has done anything to enact comprehensive immigration reform. If there is anything good that results from a Trump presidency, it might just be comprehensive immigration reform.
I heard a Hispanic preacher propose this partial solution for the immigrants now in our country illegally. Give them permanent Green Cards but no path to citizenship. This should satisfy R's who do not want 11 million more Democratic voters, and give these people legal resident status. Then fix our immigration system so this will not happen again!
7
@Bobcb Good suggestions, but it will not happen again ONLY IF we also vigorously prosecute businesses that hire illegal immigrants.
In addition to construction and landscaping businesses, we all know lots of farmers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants because they cannot find other workers. Again, deal with this and then people will take you seriously.
4
"By cutting off immigrants’ path to a green card for the sin of being underpaid, this public charge rule makes them less desirable to some employers but vulnerable to exploitation by others that have only short-term gain in mind."
Yes, Mr. Saporito. And that is precisely why Donald Trump's administration has adopted its new "public charge" rule. It tilts further an already tilted playing field to the advantage of businesses that depend on cheap, short-term immigrant labor. Businesses, in fact, that are very similar to the golf resorts that Donald Trump's family operates. Surprise, surprise! Those businesses will exploit those workers while denying them the means to find their way out of those jobs and into steadier, more dependable and higher paying work.
The aim of this new rule is gratuitous cruelty. It is one more indefensible and shabby step by an Administration steeped in institutional callousness and stupidity.
5
@manfred marcus. Why doesn't Bolivia welcome millions of them?
5
It seems that the solution to the immigrant labor issue could be resolved in two words:
STRIKE - Don't show up to work.
HIDE - Stay out of sight.
There are not enough natural born labor that will be willing to work at the same jobs as the illegals.
Reaction will be swift.
2
Heartbreaking. Shocking. Unbelievable. But we must believe it because we can't turn this reality show off. It's so pathetic that Trump doesn't understand that, in the end, he will have severed our nation's innovation pipeline. America has been the land of innovators and innovations that have profoundly impacted the human race. Those huddled masses yearning to be free came here, and the freedom to think freely unleashed their potential, nurtured their intelligence and allowed their imaginations to soar. Necessity is the mother of invention, Mr. Trump - and those immigrants who continue to arrive at our shores want to give this country their potential, their intelligence and all that their imaginations can offer. If you deny America that, you have set us on the road to mediocrity and your racist policies will cause our greatness to wither.
3
Thanks for specifying legal immigrants. The honesty and accuracy are appreciated. The Times too often conflates Illegal and legal as if there were no difference. The dishonesty and inaccuracy is grating.
12
Wonder how many of the shocked liberals here would oppose a true E*Verify program. One with teeth that started with fines for employers for first offenses and escalated to mandatory jail sentences. Oh, and of course we’d still deport the criminals to their home countries.
6
@RJ Surprise! I think many would support a strong e*Verify system IF it had equally strong consequences for those who hire illegal immigrants, like our President's golf courses.
3
Trump seems to invent thoughts on the fly demonstrating that he has very little contact with reality. His narcissism is fed by a fawning and equally ignorant staff. Happy in his bubble he reminds me of the saying of a friend's grandmother: You can't make everybody happy but you can make everybody miserable.
1
We don’t need more people. If we did it would be only high taxpayer’s to pay for socialized medicine, free college and childcare so american citizens can afford to have their own children. How stupid is a country that decides to tax its own citizens at such a high rate but gives few social services so they can even afford to marry or get a home at such a late age and they can only afford a child or maybe 2? Then they invite in uneducated immigrants, pay for their medical and other services and the numerous children they can afford to have. It makes no sense.
9
Ken Cuccinelli II--"Give me your Needy--who aren't Needy....?
Great! Only the Perfect Welcome...........
Meanwhile, workers for major U.S. companies are under paid and denied benefits and need government assistance. Will the GOP come for them next? https://americansfortaxfairness.org/files/Walmart-on-Tax-Day-Americans-for-Tax-Fairness-1.pdf
This immigrant never liked the "wretched refuse" slur that the Socialist Lazarus so cleverly attached to newcomers from Europe. (I mention this here because the article on Lazarus' ditty did not allow for comments. Why not?)
As for "benefiting business," how is that harmful in any way for the common good?
4
This whole administration is just obscene. Talk about taking jobs that people actually want away from American citizens.
There is no reason why we should have to import business owners, and doctors and engineers, except for the fact that republicans keep stripping away at public education and other public institutions. Trump’s immigrants are the ones who can bribe their way in. These wealthy business immigrants are the least likely to assimilate into a “equality and justice for all” society. Their privileged children will go to the private schools they set up to teach their own world view. They will be the ones to push even harder to erode workers rights and change what it means to be an American.
1
I think it was George W. Bush who said, pushing immigration reform back in 2007, "there are many jobs which Americans do not want to do". There real truth is that there are many jobs which Americans do not want to do at the wages that employers want to pay. Pay living wages to all workers, immigrant or not, and labor shortages at the low end will largely disappear. Therein lies Trump's ultimate betrayal. He's more anti-working class than even Mitt Romney. He's a plutocrat who happens to be a racist.
10
Immigrants have always gotten assistance as they worked to become self-sufficient. There were, and still are, societies and religious organizations that offered a helping hand. They’ve also gotten assistance from neighborhoods and communities of their fellow countrymen.
Why has it always led to independence instead of dependence? Because after fleeing the suffocating and threatening oppression that propelled them here, reaching our shores and realizing, finally, they can get started working toward a decent life, the realization becomes it’s own motivation to endure, struggle, and make it work.
Go to Houston. According to Houston Community College, 128 languages are spoken there among 30+ different cultures. People don’t have to go to school to learn entrepreneurship, they live it; it surrounds you. It’s vibrant, exciting, common-sense mixed with adventure, fun, and refreshing. That’s the flesh and bones of what made the U.S. such a rousing success.
NO, I’m NOT for open borders. But, for heaven’s sake, our nation certainly has plenty of work for there to be a quota of financially poor immigrants willing to build a life contributing to our nation by starting with that work and working up … just as my paternal grandfather did and my maternal great-great grandfather did.
What Trump’s latest mouthpiece said is ignorant – of history – and harmful to our nation’s future. It’s disgusting. But, shucks, it’s what the followers of President MAGA-hat want to hear.
2
There is a simple reason why illegal workers get busted and their employers don't. A minute of internet searching would show why -- if an intellectually honest person bothered to do the search.
All Federal law requires an employer to do is look at a work authorizing document, like a Social Security card, and get a completed I-9 form. Illegal "immigrants" present a forged Social Security card that looks genuine and commit perjury to complete the I-9.
A few states-- all Red states-- have laws making the use of eVerify mandatory but using it is voluntary under Federal law.
Employers hire illegal workers every day, all over the country and have broken no laws.
We need mandatory eVerify nationwide.
12
Conservative arguments against immigration boil down to:
1. They'll be a burden on the rest of us, financially.
2. They're different than us, culturally, and they'll vote for Democrats.
3. They're doing (method of entry) or probably (imagined past history) will do, illegal things. We follow the law here.
The first argument fails because there is no actual data to support the claim, only the rantings of Conservative talk-show hosts whose minds are probably addled by drugs (at least one is a self-confessed drug addict).
The second argument fails because it is based on politics. At this point there is a lot of data to support the claim that the Republican party is the home of racists and white nationalists, neither of which is representative of what America stands for.
The third argument fails because the standard of 'illegal' is reached via decisions rendered by a court of law of applicable jurisdiction, not public comments. It might be noted the chief employee of the Executive Branch seems to have 'violated the law' numerous times, but the people making the immigration arguments do not seem to care about his 'violations of the law'. Equal Justice for All is a nice sentiment, but like the poem on the Statue of Liberty, it is more or less ignored in practice.
Since all the Conservative arguments against it fail rationally, the question of immigration is subject only to emotional arguments, not rational ones. As usual.
1
Do you really not see the disconnect between "the meatpacking industry, where immigrants were recruited to work with less pay and under worse conditions than in the unionized plants of 30 years ago'" and the following sentence: "The idea that any of this is about safeguarding jobs for Americans . . . is absurd"?
Your first sentence should have read: the meatpacking industry, where immigrants were recruited to work with less pay and under worse conditions than THE AMERICANS WHO WORKED THERE 30 years ago
9
"..and if some of them need help at some point with housing or food stamps, it’s a bargain in the long term."
I'll gladly pay more in taxes to help illegal immigrants provided we take care of American citizens first.
3
Sadly, as with Trump’s nationalist trade policies, we will all grow to suffer the ill-effects of his anti-immigrant policies probably just as he is leaving office.
It is not only only morally wrong to close off opportunity to others who might apply to citizenship in our country; after all, that is how we all got here.
It is also self-defeating. European nations grow by conquest historically, by FORCING others into their orbit,
America, by sharp contrast, grows by immigration, by ATTRACTING others into their society, which is thereby enlarged and transformed and renewed, as anyone who reads American history knows.
Kill immigration you will kill the future of our country. Then we have only the past, to look back on wistfully with regret.
The immigration debate from Right and some from even the center, when you drill down you end up in the same place: Racism. They try to mask it, come up with explanations about how the taxpayers shouldn't have to support them but it all comes down keeping black and brown people out. "Irish bartenders are fine but get those Mexican's outta here!"
If you're going to make the economic argument, by looking at the totality of both legal and illegal immigration it ends up being a net plus for the economy and the federal coffers. If you're concerned that the federal government is spending money where it shouldn't, the last place you need to look is at safety spending. This all hearkens back to Reagan's welfare queens and strapping young bucks. It's just now that's it's applied to immigration.
The whole public assistance argument is a canard. There has always been this morality play on who should get it and who shouldn't. And when you stack it all up, the more the person looks like You, the more likely you are to think they are deserving.
1
How embarrassing it would be if the Koch brothers or the Trump organization got fined for employing undocumented workers!!! Do Republicans have such a low opinion of voters' abilities to perceive the GOP's hypocrisy at every turn? And, hey, no big deal for those workers who have abruptly been detained by ICE and left family behind.
Once again the prolife, pro family GOP shows how utterly without redeeming quality it is.
4
The immigration debate from Right and some from even the center, when you drill down you end up in the same place: Racism. They try to mask it, come up with explanations about how the taxpayers shouldn't have to support them but it all comes down keeping black and brown people out. "Irish bartenders are fine but get those Mexican's outta here!"
If you're going to make the economic argument, by looking at the totality of both legal and illegal immigration it ends up being a net plus for the economy and the federal coffers. If you're concerned that the federal government is spending money where it shouldn't, the last place you need to look is at safety spending. This all hearkens back to Reagan's welfare queens and strapping young bucks. It's just now that's it's applied to immigration.
The whole public assistance argument is a canard. There has always been this morality play on who should get it and who shouldn't. And when you stack it all up, the more the person looks like You, the more likely you are to think they are deserving.
If trump is going to raid the workspaces and deport undocumented workers, then he must in all fairness also charge the companies that hired them.
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@Bill
Do you honestly think Donald Trump is going to do that?
He'd have to charge his own golf resorts.
10
@Bill
Certainly not : this would be bad for business…
You know how Trump is keen to help all businesses so the American economy is "Great Again"…
;/
4
American capitalism is built on the concept of growth. In my economically uneducated mind, it would seem that most growth can come only from an increase in population or an increase in wealth. It seems to me that it is quicker and easier to obtain growth by population increase than by overall increase in per capita wealth. In the former situation, those who already have access to wealth are likely to be the only ones who benefit from growth.
In nature, any system where unfettered growth outruns the capacity to sustain the new growth will create the death of both the new and the old growth. Equilibrium is a much better situation than unfettered growth, as long as creativity is not fettered.
They say we should favor the uneducated, poor immigrants over the educated and wealth because they take the jobs Americans won’t do. I don’t buy it because if they were not there doing slave labor for slave wages the market would adjust. We could be like Switzerland and pay livable and dignified for every job. There even they bathroom cleaner has a real position, job security, and a very livable wages. For some jobs like crop picking there could be migrant visas. Then we don’t have to pay the medical, prenatal, and educational costs for the family of 5 for one guy to pick fruit.
14
The only people hurt are American workers. Those supposed seven million unfilled jobs, wonder how many were offered at $30 per hour. We are currently in an era of the greatest income inequality our country has ever known, what is the sense in pushing wages ever lower. Oh, I get it, without cheap labor servants in NYC would cost more. Workers might begin to make survivable wages and not depend on public assistance. The funniest line was "Agriculture could not exist without an immigrant work force" Oh really? 10,000 years of civilization gone without a way for the elites to buy cheap organic strawberries? Oh the horror.
13
This article highlights the fact that on one hand Trump and the Republicans demonize illegal immigrants for "Taking American Jobs" and on the other hand do not prosecute one single business that knowingly hiree the illegals. It is also telling that the Republicans refuse to make the Federal worker verification program, E-Verify mandatory. If it were mandatory A substantial portion of the Republican Party's business doner's would have to hire American workers which would cut into their executive pay and profits.
5
They might as well change the Lazarus poem to say, "“Give me your wealthy and your healthy...."
There is already an "E-5 program" that allows, as The Times explained in a 2015 story, "a foreigner who invests $500,000 — and in some instances, $1 million — in a project that will create at least 10 jobs can apply for a green card. It generally takes from 22 to 26 months to obtain legal residency through the program, as opposed to several years for other visa programs."
Perhaps it is time for news organizations to find out how many--and from which countries--have gained green card through this program. I'll bet Russians and Chinese oligarchs are a large part of the group.
5
As I have stated in another comment I am a legal permanent resident for almost 30 year now.
When I applied for my green card I had to find a sponsor. My wife did not make enough money. I found an old friend who believed in me and sponsored me.
She had to hand over documents to the INS to proof she had enough money to do so.
During this application process I was forbidden from accepting any government help such as welfare etc. If not she would have been charged.
So as you can see this rule is not new. It has existed for a very long time and for very good reason.
If you come to this country you are supposed tp be able to take care of yourself and not become a burden to the taxpayers. Seems fair to me.
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"But they contribute to the growth of the nation, and if some of them need help at some point with housing or food stamps, it’s a bargain in the long term."
According to experts, economic studies show, while first generation immigrantsmight use services in their initial years in order to keep them working, but their children flourish, generating taxes and economic bounty that far exceeds the cost of their parent's initial use of services.
I suspect that, as with so much in America, should the Cucinielli rules make it through courts, you will still see a 2-tier system. Nobody can get citizenship unless they're self-sustaining, but businesses will continue to flout the law, whether it's Koch food processing or Trump's golf courses.
The goal is to stomp on the backs of nonwhite immigrants while exploiting their fear to keep them under-paid, uninsured, and unprotected by US labor laws.
14
There is an unfortunate conflation in the USA (including the NYT editorial board) between A) Citizen-based immigration programs and B) Guest worker programs for low skilled labor to address the issue of "jobs no US citizen would do".
Many other countries have more robust guest worker programs--for example--all those skyscrapers in Dubai and Doha weren't built by immigrants--they were built by guest workers. My point here isn't to argue about the condition of these guest workers but to point out that there are many ways address low skilled labor shortages without granting citizenship.
The problem with granting a path to citizenship for low skill laborers is that it isn't very politically popular anywhere. For example, the countries that house the cities mentioned above would not want to naturalize their guest workers because it would dramatically change the cultural composition of their citizenry.
Many of the issues highlighted in this piece could be addressed by more robust, well-regulated guest worker programs. Lastly, I believe a lot of agriculture labor is conducted by H2A visa holders (temporary agricultural worker), not "immigrants".
13
@JB00123 You picked the worst possible example for your pro guest worker argument. Guest workers (sic!) in Dubai are treated like slaves; their passports are even taken away from them. Most of them are Muslims, so they would not even threaten the 'cultural composition' of that Disney World for adults!
4
Sounds to me like an editorial board contributor and a number of commenters know how to engage on the immigration issue.
Seems to me like it’s the job of the center left party to engage on this issue along the lines these commenters have indicated.
I’d rather pay higher prices for things like meat and vegetables so that more American workers can support a family by working some of these jobs for fair pay with decent working conditions, rather than continue to have so many of these citizens in despair, and so that guest workers when they are needed are hired in an open and above board fashion and treated fairly.
So how about it, Democratic politicians? Are you going to reframe the debate and engage or what? Because leaving the field to Coulter, Bannon, Trump, and (I venture to guess) folks like the US Chamber of Commerce on this issue hasn’t been working out. (If the chamber has a nuanced, practical, and humane position on this then I’ll be happy to apologize for the gibe after I hear their position.)
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This article is excellent as far as it goes, but let me tell you some things I have learned by reading comments on appropriate articles over the past year or two.
Here and in today's comments that I have only sampled, much of the emphasis is on jobs that people already here, all the descendants of immigrants, do not want to do.
But as the article and many comments point out, those are jobs that employers do not want to pay a living wage for getting the job done or provide satisfactory working conditions.
A while back at an article having to do with medical care in I believe the state of Washington, readers reported on just how many of the caretakers were either rather recent immigrants or perhaps 2d generation immigrants from places like, to use my favorite example, Somalia.
This is true to some extent even in Sweden, but here these second generationers - I know many of them quite well - have Universal Health Care, subsidy for every child born, free pre-school, and more.
If the Census Bureau were to collect high-quality SES data, end "race" classification, but add country of origin including 2d generation parents' country and then use that to publish data from different employment settings the data would show that we cannot survive without a flow of immigrants.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
8
I love the photo/art by George Etheredge. You often have really wonderful art, but I am not sure if you accept comments on that part of the content.
6
I'm confused about how denying a green card, which allows an immigrant to work, encourages self-sufficiency. How does one afford housing, nutrition, and health care without a job? And if we really want to rid ourselves of undocumented workers, are we also willing to pay the true price of goods produced by citizens with labor law protections?
12
@Suzanne What this is designed to do is cut down on chain migration. A person comes to the US (legally or illegally) and gets a green card or permanent visa. He uses this opportunity to bring as many of his/her relatives to the US--perhaps it was part of the plan. So, these relatives have little or NO chance of working (too old?) but are immediately allowed access to subsidized health care and all the other freebies--food stamps, etc. This is like the scam being run in Europe--see Sweden specifically--and the US government has done nothing to limit this. This chain migration means (or meant) getting all your relatives into the US easily with no scrutiny--can you support them, will they ask for welfare payments when you can't? If so, don't bring them. That is what these new rules will do, despite the usual liberal hypocrisy and whining. And NO, no-one looked into this, despite it being law, during the Obama era. Hey, they were potential democratic voters, right?
8
We need to reward labor. It does not matter if that labor is immigrant or not. It does not matter if the worker is a citizen or not. Just see to it that wages and benefits are fair.
Are there any actual Democrats out there?
21
@Caveman 007 Most immigrants I know or have met are so grateful to be here and have a job. We feel entitled and expect to be hired and paid more than we are really worth. Fast food workers or dishwashers are ridiculed because it’s not as cool as working at the mall. There is dignity in every job. I’m thankful for those that are able to do the jobs I wouldn’t be qualified for
5
@Caveman 007 You ask are there any Democrats out there. Those who supported the American worker have gone elsewhere because attitudes such as not caring if someone is an American worker or not. Many of my fellow Dems are much more supportive of citizens of other countries than they are their fellow Americans. Not sure how to vote in 2020, maybe time to split the ticket.
3
When Georgia had a law targeting migrant workers, 40% of the agricultural workforce disappeared. Crops rotted in the fields and on the trees.
Work in the chicken plant was hard and dangerous and extremely low paid. These tactics rely on indentured servitude to some extent where the workers are held hostage. They cannot complain; they do not even get medical coverage even when they are injured on the job.
Let's see how the job fairs do. The replacement of immigrants may not be what Trump people think.
14
Hiring illegal or slave labor is not the ethical way to solve this problem. We have to follow the lead of countries that work for example Switzerland. They do not hire illegal labor period. They pay higher prices and even the worst jobs are considered a profession and pay a very livable wage. This improves the wealth gap and brings the lowest sector out of poverty and off government welfare programs.
12
It's ironic, if not duplicitous, for Ken Cuccinelli to be the one to subvert Emma Lazarus's famous lines. I'd bet that his grandfather was an Italian immigrant, whose son, Ken's father made good, no doubt by taking advantages of the opportunities his adopted country had to offer, making possible Ken's own success.
My dad was an Italian immigrant too, arriving in 1922, just two years before the 1924 immigration act that severely limited immigration from southern and eastern Europe. He had two jobs during the Great Depression, in a shoe factory during the day and as a janitor in an office building at night, to support his growing family. I was the last born, got an undergraduate degree, and eventually a PhD, becoming a university professor until my retirement 11 years ago.
That's what immigration can do, and that's what makes America great. Cuccinelli should know that. Shame on him.
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@dricciotti Those opportunities are now gone. Climbing the class ladder is now almost impossible. Born poor, you stay poor. Business has changed since 1924. Now corporations offshore if production can be, and promote open borders and work visas if labor needs to be US based, all with the goal of extremely low wages. That's what the whole thing is about, upper class in both parties pushing wages down.
6
That is what LEGAL immigration can do. Stop, please stop, conflating illegal immigrants with the tens of millions of immigrants through history who have migrated here legally. They are not the same - by any stretch of the imagination - and you should be ashamed for suggesting they are.
2
@MA, I don't believe Cuccinelli's remarks were directed at illegal immigrants, but rather those legals who in the past would have entered through Ellis Island from Europe, and perhaps aware of Lazarus's words. He wants them to stand on their own two feet, as he says, and not have public programs serve them.
1
There is not the slightest question that this measure is both cruel and exploitative, intended to make undocumented workers even cheaper. Capitalism lives. BUT: The process is a bit more complicated. When the author writes: " the list of immigrant-dependent industries has grown to include meatpacking, construction, hospitality..." that passive voice "has grown" obscures the fact that that availability of cheap labor through legal and illegal immigration DROVE DOWN wages and wrecked unions. Meatpacking 30 years ago got you $20/hr in a unionized shop. Today it's $7 and employer terror. Lots of immigration and lots of attacks on worker organizations go together.
30
Union extortion to achieve $20/hr wages for menial labor is what drives businesses to seek reasonable compensation levels. Most jobs, my own included, cannot support a lifestyle beyond survival if they’re paid commensurate with the level of education that is truly required in order to perform them satisfactorily. I supervise minimum wage security guards and warehouse workers. Unlike my subordinates pay, my hours aren’t billable to the client and come directly out of my employer’s pocket. How much can I expect him to pay me? As a 1099 contractor, he isn’t bound by labor law. His view is that my labor is work about $5.50hr for a 65 hour week. It’s been that rate since 2001.
2
The powerful have always preyed on those weaker. That we have dressed up the process to make it look kinder and gentler does not change the situation for millions without power. And those who think they are amongst the somewhat powerful are usually one overly ambitious prosecutor away from becoming prey permanently.
As fare a immigrants are concerned, this country needs a rational approach to immigration including clear rules about paths to citizenship and paths that do not.
As this country is not keeping up with the replacement birthrate, it needs immigrants lest it contracts, fiscally and in population. It needs all sorts of immigrants.
As for the treatment of its immigrants, the law and ICE should cease and desist in its extradition of immigrants until it starts incarcerating the employers who are hiring these folks illegally.
As for treatment of its own citizens, treat the hardworking non-elites in the country at least as well as the immigrant. And start electing people who represent the people and not the protected powerful.
This was the promise of this Republic. WIth all its faults and sins, it is still the 'last best hope'.
11
Read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Exploitation of those flying under the radar is a standard business practice and has been for since the first non-native people landed here, Indentured Servitude. It has been made to sound like everybody got something out of it, but there was a constant tendency to cheat the servant by finding reasons to extend the servitude. Nothing changes when you have an abundance of exploitable people and an ethics system that either doesn't exist or is just ignored. If the real problem is people who don't make enough to live using government assets to get by the why don't they go after employers like Walmart. The difference is Walmart is exploiting Citizens.
29
Really?
Businesses support open borders in order to exploit low wage illegal workers?
What will we learn next? That unfettered free trade enabled entire industries to move overseas in search of cheap labor and limited regulation?
Well, let’s stop this Koch Brothers’ scheme.
Let’s actually secure the border and end asylum scamming, and penalize any employers that knowingly hire illegal workers.
And let’s apply “wage and regulation” tariffs to products from any country that doesn’t have equivalent wages and environmental regulations as the U.S.
21
@John
Why rant about the fiction of asylum scamming when you point out the most important target -- the unscrupulous employers (including Koch Foods).
4
Hahaha! Congress holding their donors responsible on hiring illegals. That's rich.
3
@John I really liked reading your words "equivalent wage and environmental" So many can say environmental, or labor, but no one will say wages. Wage equity should be the first thing to consider.
5
How about putting the onus on the employers and the consumers?
It's obvious that those whose labor is implicitly accepted and the fruits (quite literally) of whose labor is enjoyed by all should be treated as a fellow human human being.
At the same time there is no reason that cheap labor should be subsidized by federal funds - employers who use the labor should pay directly for health care costs.
And the only way to get that to happen is put everything above board. That is to enforce e-verify and record keeping, and sanction employers who go around that.
That the Democratic Party doesn't even debate this is beyond unreasonable. 50 years ago when Mexico was stronger, they tried to throttle the labor supply to the US, i n order to uphold the rights and wages of Mexican workers in the US. Ceaser Chavez also supported that for a while, until it became clear it was a losing battle because there was no public support in the US.
The present tack is failing. We are heading towards a caste society. It is better to leverage the law for the purpose of enhancing the rights and lives of immigrant who are here legally or who have already paid their X years of indentured service. The demand for labor is high - that's a force that can and should be leveraged to issue legal visas and enforce basic rights such as employer paid medical care.
Of course food and business costs will rise. That's the price of forgoing exploitation.
25
What a valuable article, a reminder to shed our arrogance in belittling those immigrants, documented or not, that make our lives easier and rhe advantage of pursuing better and more lucrative jobs elsewhere. To begin with, many of the immigrants constitute a loss to their native countries, and a 'steal' by this rich country by having exactly the workers more in demand, especially in menial jobs nobody wants nor is able to contend with. This, especially for those working in the fields, allowing the vegetables and fruits (etc) reach our table in a timely manner...while their miserable salary is allowed... as that immigrant is unable to complain nor benefit from health care, vacations nor retirement, in spite of the fact he/she pays taxes, same as the rest of us (and yet, without representation). Aside from the Trumpian/Cuccinelli's cruelty, no inkling of at least some humility? Do we have to be this thankless for our luck?
23
"In an economy that is largely consumer driven, population growth is vital to growth."
This is insane. Of course any addition of labor to the labor force will cause growth but ask any country (particularly India and China) if they would prefer population growth or decline. Both countries are in fact actively trying (without speaking publicly about it) to get their excess population to emigrate. When people leave China and India, their GDP per capita rises, which is good for both countries.
We can make the case that accepting immigrants is the humane thing to do, but for our economy, it is a loss. Our GDP per capita falls with every new immigrant for two reasons: 1. The value-added each new immigrant produces is less than the average per capita GDP, therefore it brings down GDP per capita. 2. Most of the jobs new immigrants take are not newly created jobs that Americans can't fill, but replacement jobs at lower wages (and a much more docile disposition, which is prized even more by employers than low wages), so that median wages in the economy fall. It's not a coincidence that the median wage of workers hasn't budged in the last twenty five years or so along with massive immigration.
Telling average Americans that immigration is just great for them only drives more of them into the arms of Trump, which is an even bigger disaster.
47
@Sirlar
Maximizing GDP is a far more important goal than GDP per capita. GDP per capita is a commomly-used summary statistic but is essentially meaningless.
We do not fund research or the military or the highway system on a per capita basis. They, and our status as a superpower, rely on the GDP.
The other feature of GDP growth is psychological. A shrinking pie will make us more bitter and prone to criminality while sapping our hope for the future.
6
I disagree that total GDP is more important but this really based on your priorities. If you don’t care about the quality of life of the citizens but want to have the largest military and control the world than yes total GDP is the most important. Countries with high GDP per capital are Switzerland, Norway, Singapore, Sweden vs high total GDP like India or Brazil.
High GDP per capital gives each citizen a significantly longer lifespan (13 years Swiss vs India), makes them less likely to die in infancy or childbirth, gives them more access to health care, lowers obesity, lowers birth rate, and gives them more access to education and quality of life. Sounds Americans are taking a major hit for the team just to make sure we can continue wars and police the world. I vote for quality over quantity with socialized medicine, education, and childcare over this race to fill up the country and grow the wealth gap constantly bringing in people that take a generation to educate.
10
@Sirlar Who has been stopping raising the minimum wage? Not democrats. Corporations fire older workers to hire young lower wage workers. Replace full time employees with freelance workers.
11
Thanks for this article. It makes sense, which is why tRump would hate it.
I have to refernce another article on the Times, re: 6 Philadelphia Police Officers Shot in a Standoff Near Temple University
The article mentions that tRump is monitoring the situation, but what it really should have said was "tRump, hoping to find a way to exploit the shooting for political gain, was monitoring the situation.
Sorry for the interruption.
20
I thought it was a very good article. We benefit from immigration, including poor immigrants, from their working in this country, doing tough jobs, taking low pay, paying taxes, and helping the country grow. They benefit too. They are trying to feed themselves and their families and work their way up. If they take some benefits available via the government. its a good deal for the country too.
17
@Kent
With today’s high cost of living, people without massive training and education and without a large support network, will not “work themselves up”. They will start poor and become poorer no matter how hard they work. In the past the economy grew faster than the population. This is no longer true. Looming above all these considerations is AI and its rapidly growing sophistication. Japan was recently showing robots harvesting fruit.
15