We should be supporting the freedom craving people in Hong Kong. Yet, we are focusing so much of our energy on stories of events that are so much less important. Nations that are Democracies are a minority in the world. We should be doing everything to promote democracy around the world. China should be a democracy and trust its people that they can govern themselves. That's the mark of a nation that truly cares about human rights and freedom. Communism is the death knell to human dignity and the uplifting of the human spirit. It's time for China to enter the realm of responsible nations who truly care about humanity.
6
This is going to bring Trump and Xi together. We may be seeing it today. If there is one thing Trump hates, it is popular and pro-democracy protests.
2
France eventually suceeded in revolution.
The United States eventually succeeded in revolution.
All true Americans stand in support of Hong Kong.
4
All decisions about Hong Kong are made by Xi Jinping. Others are just messengers. If Xi Jinping is out of office, there will be another new Xi Jinping coming out in China. This is the Chinese Communist system since Mao Zedong years. No change in sight, Hong Kongers must work harder and continue to fight a long war with Beijing. Don't expect any quick solutions.
5
I'm no fan of the Communist government in China. At first, I supported the protestors, but the more I read about the details the less sympathy I have for their cause. The silent majority in Hong Kong are also getting sick and tired of them for disrupting their daily lives. Democracy be damned.
The protestors want political rights, but they have more rights than their mainland counterparts since Hong Kong allows them the freedom assembly and freedom of the press. How else are they able to commemorate the anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre every year? Try doing that in Beijing.
They also complained about the police's excessive use of force. Contrary to their unfair portrayal in the NYT, the Hong Kong police have shown great self restraint so far compared to their counterparts in the U.S. and Europe. Notice the absence of water canons and the zero fatalities. Try explaining how the protestors could vandalize government buildings, block traffic and occupy an airport at will. Try doing that in New York City.
If they have stopped at the withdrawal of the extradition bill, they could have declared victory, but they have opened a Pandora's box by demanding more concessions. Thanks to them, tourists and investors have already been scared off. Its economy isn't keeping up with other mainland cities. Watching what's happening in Hong Kong is like watching someone setting fire to his own house. This is the real tragedy not the lack of freedom.
6
@Michael N. You're writing like a a true communist sympathizer. It's easy to cheapen the value of freedom when you are living in a free country like America. It's amazing how you belittle the value of democracy and uphold the communist dictatorship of China in the name of law and order. The communists have more blood on their hands of their own people than any foreign government meddling in their affairs. Communist China is the largest police state in the world. The only reason they can claim a modern or high standard of living is because we allowed them into the World Trade Organization and gave them the same status as our democratic trading partners of Europe. Russia has no such status. We never allowed them into the World Trade Organization.
5
@Michael N.Your naievty amazes and appals me, or are you just putting up a flashy Straw Man? You really have absolutely no idea of the difference between what are fundemental democratic and autocratic (communist in this case) ideals. The abuses of personal rights, compulsory sterilisation, organ harvesting and various other horrific practices cnnducted bythe ruling Communist party in Beijing speak for themselves, not forgetting the 1989 massacres in Tianamen Square, and the failed one child policy of a generation ago that is now producing huge social problems as there are so few women for men to marry.
The present demonstrations in Hong Kong are highligtung the differneces of the two basic global gevernance systems. Democracy, in whatever form, is far better than autocracies, expressed so well by Winston Churchill, loosely quoted - "Democracy is not perfect but is still better than the alternatives".
4
What is so amazing to me is the similarity between communist party rule and the monarchies/oligarchies they replaced. Both are authoritarian and both are led by an individual with immense power. The only citizens of some influence represent a fraction of the population and they are themselves authoritarian-oriented. Dissent is not tolerated. The Chinese government/communist party will, soon I fear, invade Hong Kong and arrest the leaders of any prodemocracy movement or demonstration. This is how they work. This is how they control their population. Officially, the Tiananmen Square Massacre has been erased from public memory in China, but within the nation's psyche this crime lies just below the surface.
3
@Potlemac You're right about the similarity between the authoritarian communist government and the imperial rule of China's long history. "Old China hands", the scholars who studied and wrote about Mao's revolution, often described it as 'old wine in new bottles.'
5
On Sept. 24, 1996, the United States and the world's other major nuclear powers signed a treaty to end all testing and development of nuclear weapons. Do you believe all nations having nuclear capabilities are being good boys and girls?
Man will self destruct whether by global warming climate or a global nuclear holocaust. May God protect us from our selves.
I've heard of the ultimate "doomsday bomb". Humans use most of their resources for their preoccupation with destruction, and that has impeded man's ability to cure diseases such as Alzheimer's, Ebola, Polio, Lupus Erythematosus, Influenza, Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, Diabetes, HIV/AIDS, Asthma, Cancer, and the common cold.
It was not just an extradition law. No Hong Konger has a problem with returning a murderer to Taiwan or even China if they have fled to Hong Kong.
The problem is that it was a law that would allow China to snatch people off the streets, and even American tourists passing through Hong Kong airport, for alleged crimes committed anywhere. Even in Hong Kong itself, which has a perfectly good legal system.
These crimes would include exercising free speech or criticizing the Chinese government. Much "better" to try them in China which has a 99.9% guilty rate. Or perhaps there would be no trial at all; the person would just disappear.
The "best" bit of the extradition law is that the Chinese wouldn't need a pesky Hong Kong judge to agree to the extradition, just the word of the communist party official would be enough.
Stand by Hong Hong. For the vile Chinese government has designs on the whole world.
10
This article’s attribution of housing price problem to CCP is confusing. Housing price is always high in hk because of limited land supply (and CCP cannot do much about it - the congress at hk decides on that - though I would say it’s actually the a few ultra rich families that gained wealth from real estate preventing more land supply). I am reading this article to learn more about hk ppl’s ‘real’ motive for the protest, but housing price is no CCP’s blame. Free election? Good luck - you never had it when you were a British colony, either.
4
@Lep The land shortage in HK is a myth and excuse for propping up housing prices to benefit the government and landlords. 70% of Hong Kong's land is reserved for "country parks", and another 10% or so is so-called "brownfield" sites used as junkyards and the like. Only 7% is used for residential. Furthermore developers are sitting on enormous land banks and there is always the possibility of reclamation from the sea. The fact is that the housing crisis is a policy choice.
4
I applaud these young people putting their lives on the line for freedom and democracy; but I am terrified that they are setting the stage for Tiananmen Square/ Part Two! Anyone who remembers the massacre of 1989; knows the Chinese dictators in Bejing will tolerate this for only so long. It matters not what the rest of the world thinks; when it comes to a matter of what the communist government thinks is in their vital and strategic interests are concerned; the lives of a few thousand protesters mean very little to Xi and Co. !
5
Back in 1997 I said to myself, "I wonder when this clash of values will come to a head"? It's too bad people are so predictable. China's leadership could have been braver - less controlling and more creative - while at the same time holding to their values.
@Me
Values?
4
Alas, we know how this ends. All the power rests with Beijing and the only reason it hasn't simply jailed or shot everyone in sight thus far and repopulated Hong Kong with docile serfs is financial; Hong Kong is a cash cow. But their forbearance certainly has limits; recall Tiananmen Square.
As to what's to be done? Sanctions against all other authoritarian regimes have failed to significantly impact their behavior and none of them had/have remotely the resources and muscle of China. Military action? Surely not.
Hong Kong is one of my favorite cities in the world and it is with great sadness that I conclude that it is in the road to oblivion as the place I knew.
5
Sadly, yet again the NYT coverage of the situation reveals a deep bias when reporting the situation in Hong Kong.
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The situation is not simply a power struggle between protesters and Beijing. Most of the protesters demands are blackmail directed against our local Hong Kong government. They are breaking our Hong Kong Laws (which are similar to UK Law), and assaulting our Hong Kong Police (who were founded by the U.K. colonial government and are fully staffed and run by local, Hong Kong citizens). An increasing proportion of the Hong Kong people are getting fed up with these petulant protesters and wish they would just go home.
.
This is not Communist Poland. This is not Ukraine. This is not Libya. If you lived here you would find it thoroughly open and free. This situation is being stirred up by elements that refused to accept that the Umbrella Riots were unsuccessful because they lacked public support, and they are paying people to protest. The young people have been fired up by fear for the future and fear of China, despite China’s relatively light touch and its active support in directing business our way.
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Sigh. Please take a fresh look at the situation here. This is not the plucky independence struggle against an evil empire that you are looking for. It is a totally futile and unnecessary tantrum by people who feel they are not being given what they think they want... They should stop the protests and then come back to talk - without this loaded gun.
8
@Andrew
Dear comrade:
The violence has been 99% on the side of the Hong Kong police. Using out of date toxic tear gas on people standing peacefully. And beating people with batons when they are already helpless on the ground.
Funnily enough many of these violent policemen speak Mandarin not Cantonese, as they would if they were Hong Kong natives. So they are from mainland China.
There is also videos of policemen changing into black T shirts to join the protestors as provocateurs and even planting evidence on protestors to give them an excuse to beat and arrest them.
6
@Andrew It sounds like you support the Chinese governments crackdown on demonstrators. Do you also support the cowardly thugs who beat people with clubs, while the police stood by, when they returned in small groups and were outnumbered by the CP thugs? Do you acknowledge that the Tiananmen Square Massacre occurred? Do you approve of sending political dissidents to China as proposed by Ham? I eagerly await your reply.
2
If there’s any doubt left about how trump feels about the Chinese, watch the footage from his most recent rally, where, making fun of the Chinese, he squints his eyes and brays, “We want deal!”
2
Young Hong Kong protesters, many born after Britain gave up colonial occupation in 1997, or were infants then, had been sold a bill of goods: an idealized utopian universal suffrage democracy.
Bad ideas lead to terrible outcome. Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" (1992) is a major milestone in the triumphant hubris of "liberal democracy". Since proven so very wrong.
The Hong Kong protesters are thoroughly brainwashed with the idea of liberal democracy. They wave UK & Yankee flags marching down the streets, oblivious of the Brexit mess in UK and a long list of social ills plaguing USA. Who do they identify with? Not China.
Who indoctrinated the young people? Start with casual nostalgia sprouted by their grandparents and parents. More significantly, it's Hong Kong school system and teachers, also educated under the same colonial system. Many K-12 schools bear the names of Christian churches. These schools have direct links to the American or British mother churches, receiving direction and some financial support.
It's a major policy failure of Hong Kong's government not to abolish these schools and make them secular. Blame the "One-Country Two-System" agreement, a latent bomb left behind by the Brits as they retreated. China was not strong enough to negotiate in the 80s.
The young Hong Kong protesters are a "lost generation", but their number is minuscule compare to China's total population, easily replaced. Time to clean up. No need to wait for 2047.
3
@Observer: you had me at the beginning, but lost me once you started blaming the churches and hinting at ominous actions.
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Yes, the protesters have been sold a bill of goods, but I say no to giving up on the youth as a whole. It is a minority who are out there rioting. I have great young colleagues at work. Indeed a majority did not join that “strike”.
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It is a bit like Brexit and the Trump disaster in reverse. Yes a large group of older white people voted for a Trump, but you shouldn’t blame older white people as a group or assume that any individual older white person would have voted for him. Dump the cruel and incompetent Trump, undo the undemocratic Brexit and bring the HK disrupters off the street. Ah... Sounds good.
2
@Observer So when liberal values are handed down from parents and grandparents it's "brainwashing" and "indoctrination", but you're happy to see the government take over the school system to enforce ideological uniformity? The mind boggles.
6
@Observer I read several propaganda pieces throughout my lifetime and your's is right a the top. "Time to clean up?" Freedom can't be swept under the rug no matter how much you try.
3
The Chinese communists will deal with the brave (and foolish) democracy protestors in Hong Kong just as the Nazis did to the Sudetenland. The uprising in Hong Kong is immensely dangerous to the Chinese Central Party, which cannot countenance any challenge to its absolute control. The Hong Kong protestors will be shut down at just about any cost, even if thousands are killed in the process. The Communists stand to lose more by not cracking down. World public opinion will of course cringe at the sight of protestors being moved down, but in the final analysis, this matters little to the Communists.
The only "take-away" from this tragic episode is that the rest of the world must come to understand that Communist China represents a world-class threat to humanity, because a totalitarian regime (armed with nuclear weapons) which exterminates its own citizens will, sooner or later, do the same to its neighbors, near and far.
14
An important point missing from this analysis is that what the protesters are demanding is nothing more than that Beijing keep the promises it made in order to resume sovereignty over Hong Kong, including "Hong Kong people governing Hong Kong" and the eventual implementation of universal suffrage for the Chief Executive and Legislative Council (provided for in the Basic Law).
Note how Carrie Lam is willing to engage in scorched earth tactics to try to pass the extradition law -- a Beijing priority -- while doing nothing about local crises such as air pollution and housing.
On democratic development, HK actually has been moving backwards. Half the legislature has always been elected by small-circle elections rigged to guarantee pro-Beijing majorities. In recent years even this hasn't been enough and the government has resorted to disqualifying duly elected representatives for thought crimes and oath-taking irregularities.
There probably is little constructive the international community can do to help Hong Kong, but it's possible that Hong Kong will end up helping everyone else by shining a spotlight on just how far China is from acting like a normal, responsible country. The eternally negative tone of Western news coverage of China has masked a real turn towards totalitarianism and aggression under Xi's leadership. The response of the divided and distracted international community has been nowhere near what will be required to contain the threat.
15
China is going to have a difficult time, Hong Kong is not some remote province in western China where they can put large segments of the population in re-education camps, Hong Kong is comparable to New York and London in terms of global significance and if they don’t want to bend to Beijing’s will there isn’t much Beijing can do about it short of using brute force and that is unimaginable.
4
@Sohrab Batmanglidj I don't think the use of brute force is unimaginable at all. The Chinese Communists weathered the international condemnation after Tiananmen Square and they will weather any reaction to whatever force they use in HK. They're hoping that the protests will spend themselves. If they don't, they won't hesitate to send in the army.
6
People in the comments expecting Trump to intervene need to realize that Trump thrives on chaos and entropy--it is his oxygen. He'll pour gasoline on a house fire before he'll ever pour water on it.
5
The Communist Party has carefully selected what to make free and what not. They try to benefit from a liberal economic system without allowing one to exist beyond carefully designed limits. It allows liberal social behavior but only up to a point. There is no independent judiciary and no reliable system of laws that apply to all. The country’s attempts to keep power by seeming to allow freedom while ruthlessly applying dictatorship is being displayed in Hong Kong.
The Beijing regime has no experience with liberty and they don’t know how to deal with those who have experienced it. Their instinct is to crush it. But that will end Hong Kong’s usefulness to them. So they are stuck. The police seem to be acting under orders from some simpleton in Beijing who is riling up the citizens instead of reducing the disorderly behavior. The use of the Cathay company to try to intimidate the people was just as clueless. It made travelers in and out of Hong Kong involved, which for any country is embarrassing.
China is reaching a point where the Party must apply lethal force to achieve control on it’s own terms or compromise. The kind of situation that leads to crazy behaviors.
13
By keeping his mouth shut (both vocally and tweeting), Trump’s diminishing Xi’s claims of U.S. involvement. Xi and the CCP are then forced to fight an economic war on two fronts. One actually with Trump and the other with the people of Hong Kong.
For a nation working to maintain its global economic place, this has to be a conundrum: Stay with the hardline or negotiate?
Trump may be doing the only intelligent thing he’s done during his administration.
8
Well said! He's actually playing his cards right, so far. Will be interesting to see when/how he manages to handle this situation or, fumble it in the long run. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it will be the latter.
3
China can try to suppress this by force like they did in other restive regions, but they won’t be able to sweep a Tiananmen 2.0 under the rug when the international community has their eyes on Hong Kong. I’ve known many Chinese friends who are either neutral or defensive of the CCP unyielding stance on the protests, but even they wouldn’t be able to turn their eyes away from such a blatant and visible massacre by their own government, especially since HK-ers are ethnically similar. And even if western nations stay silent for fear of economic retribution, I doubt mainlanders will when they realise the real price of freedom that they’re giving up for the sake of stability.
4
@Beng Not so sure about that. What trump has proved is that what's "Inconceivable Yesterday" is the "Shock of Today" and the "Norm of Tomorrow".
3
To the citizens of Hong Kong, I wish you the best. Standing up to powerful oppressors is a brave thing.
It’s also proof the world is turning upside down: A Chinese SAR fighting for democracy and the U.S. under the sway of a wanna be authoritarian leader.
8
Are the protest leaders deliberately trying to provoke China into military intervention? It worries me that China will be the ultimate beneficiary of this escalating crises. How it can end any other way? It's not as if the international community is stopping China from other abuses of human rights and international law. Whose side are the protest leader's really on?
Support Hong Kong independence!
6
Hong Kong is a political and societal enigma.
150 years of existence under a quasi-benign colonial overlord to an appendage of a communist regime; neither offering autonomy. It is foolhardy to have believed either arrangement could sustained itself. Over and over-again, we've witnessed how humanity eventually rises up against governments that stymie the most basic notions of what free people look like; act like and aspire to be.
Here-at-home, we have freedom on a piece of paper but are really?
7
HK is part of China and nothing, not its colonialist part, Britain or the US, can change that and the reality that China will use force to protect its sovereignty if need be. But even without Xi and the CCP, it is too far engrained in the Chinese mindset and fueled by a history of foreign control to allow any political change which might be seen as a new dismemberment of China, all of which would be a dramatic and intolerable loss of face for the CCP. Nevertheless, the HK people, like countless others around the world suffering under authoritarian rule, deserve better, they yearn for freedom and real democracy, to be out from under the yoke of tyrants from Beijing and the fascist arbitrary rule of the CCP. This will end poorly because Xi and the PRC will be unyielding, but where is the US, the UK and the West, why aren't Western leaders speaking up, calling in the PRC to allow democracy in HK and to liberalize the politics of the PRC? Trump in particular is a leader wholly unready and uneqipped intellectually and morally to deal with this kind of crisis.
8
“In Hong Kong, when you push people, when you repress them, when you ignore them — they push back.”
This has to do with the fact that the Hong Kong people, when they’re treated like cattle, know that they are not cattle. When the mainland Chinese are treated like cattle, they often behave just like cattle.
It’s all about conditioning. The authoritarian state wants a new set conditioning, for a new set of values. Values that are not about the rule of law and civil liberty, but about money and power and manufactured prestige via propaganda. To pull that off they need a true peasant class, and unfortunately for the CCP, the Hong Kong people are not peasants.
To the ruling class and the investor class, money and power are far more important than people. That’s why there’s so much media coverage about worry of “what this will do to the market”. Never believe they care about people.
The people of Hong Kong should extend love to the government of Beijing, but in the exact same amount, no more and no less, as the government of Beijing extends love to the people of Hong Kong. So why would the government of Beijing feel disturbed by that prospect? Perhaps it’s because, no matter how hard they try to love Beijing, maybe they just don’t love ‘em all that much.
7
"...each side is staking out increasingly polarized positions, making it difficult to find a path to compromise between the protesters and China’s ruling Communist Party."
How can you compromise with a government run by authoritarian thugs? Life is too short to have to live under a dictatorship.
15
If the Chinese government can muster a lick of common sense, they will consider leasing it back to Britain. Otherwise they will risk killing the goose that laid the golden egg which is Hong Kong.
6
@Upstate Dave I agree. Some people in HK want to be colonized, and be a second-class citizen, let them be. Britain had ruled HK for more than 100 years, but not a single governor was elected by HK people, not a single law was written by HK people. Why didn't they protest under British government? Because they were not allowed.
2
The British for all their racism and need to control subject peoples introduced liberal political values like the rule of law and of an independent judiciary. The people of Hong Kong prospered and they could not be expected to serve China’s needs under the dictatorship that the people on the mainland endured. Beijing does not respect any individual person beyond exploiting them. At heart, China is a land where no person has any value beyond usefulness to someone in power. People in Hong Kong are used to a lot more respect for individuals. That opposite perception on life is creating the disharmony.
6
What can we do here and in other countries to help democracy win in Hong Kong? How do we hold China to what they agreed to internationally over the rights of the people of Hong Kong? What's the international enforcement mechanism for "one country, two systems"? But of course it might be time for two countries, two systems if Beijing is unwilling to back off and do what it promised.
4
This is a crucial moment in history, best seized by opening talks with Carry Lam, the Chinese implant to Hong Kong's democracy.
China wants to save face, Ms Lam wants to show she's in control, and the people of Hong Kong want their rights respected.
Everyone can win by slowing things down. The demonstrators win most, by beginning long, slow and civil negotiations to show China that what they seek is of no consequence to China.
Protestors need to appoint a committee to meet with the Lam government. The protestors have a very large incentive to offer Lam and the Chinese - they can agree to stand down as long as talks are progressing.
Then, in my view, the citizens of Hong Kong need to take the long view, possibly with two or more years of negotiations, beginning with what they can agree on and gradually showing China that what the people of Hong Kong want, fairness and respect for their rights, is no threat to China.
It can work. Everyone can get what they want. B allowing China to focus elsewhere, political pressue can be relieved just by going back to first positions and negotiating from there.
Ultimatums won't work right now. Offering peace and tranquility should work like a charm.
2
@Em Hawthorne fairness and respect for human beings (in particular, their own citizenry) is anthema to the CCP and a threat to their very rule over China. They made that clear in 1989.
2
@Em Hawthorne
Great idea. Except Carrie Lam, the Chinese stooge, has refused to meet with anyone.
Without the outside help, these young protesters will go nowhere. With that, they fought with the police evenly.
The tragedy is that these youngsters just follow the crowd with excitement and fun seeking in summer time. They have no idea as to what the amendment of the extradition law means to HK and its people.
The violent and disruptive actions caused a great deal of headache to HK business. It will take years to recover. These protests, in the meantime, also affect the daily life of HK population. People got fed up with it.
Ms. Lam may be humiliated by protesters for the time being. But with the backing of Beijing government and pro-China HK population, she will stand firm and solve the problem eventually. Law and order will always outlast the violent and disruptive actions. There is no exception.
@UsokPreserving business is commonly used as the ultimate excuse to suppress democracy.
3
@Usok
It's always the fun-seeking misguided youth, right? Just like on Tiannamen Square when law and order came and massacred them. Massacred their youngsters. With no exceptions. Your vision of a good-running society reminds me of the calm and efficient order of a graveyard (no headaches anymore).
4
Classic case of China's wanting to have its cake and eat it too. For 2017, China ranked 108th in per capital GDP of $16,700 behind the Dominican Republic, while Hong Kong ranked 17th with $61,400, ahead of the US. Comments miss the point when they argue about limits on Hong Kong democracy. The more important advantage is that a reasonable share of GDP went to households in Hong Kong while historic low levels go to households in China.
Of course, Hong Kong "belongs" to China now. But China cannot impose upon Hong Kong the strictures that it imposes upon the Chinese on the other side of the border without destroying the value of Hong Kong. I'm sorry for the citizens of Hong Kong, but, in 10 yrs, their culture and economy will be as beat as the remainder of the Chinese culture and economy.
Maybe China's trading "partners" should take note.
5
Hong Kong “a bastion of civil liberties” under British (colonial) rule? Hardly. Under the British, there was no democracy at all. It was only with the approach of the 1997 handover that the British began to use the word in relation to Hong Kong. But that’s all it was - talk.
10
There is no such thing as the rule of law in China. No independent judiciary. The British brought and used law to govern, the judiciary was even allowed to be independent until it compromised British interests. The British suffered from the need to co-opt local people to control their empire, and so they spread liberal values, too. Not enough Brits to properly rule as they felt.
1
I wish Bernie Sanders and other Democratic Socialists would speak out on this.
The world needs their voices.
7
Whether or not the protesters have legitimate issues - and I'm sure they do - what they don't have is the means to defend themselves or advance their cause militarily against an obvious threat that is growing more and more agitated by the hour.
This will not end well.
9
"The unrest is exposing the inherent conflict in the political experiment that began when China reclaimed Hong Kong from Britain in 1997, an ambitious attempt to marry Beijing’s brand of authoritarianism with a bastion of civil liberties."
This isn't going to end well. How could it? The "deal" really is no deal at all, given the numbers.
And with a world in disarray, including the failure and inexpertise of our current government to deal realistically with world crises, who would risk bucking Xi's China to save Hong Kong?
It's a numbers game, pure and simple. This uneasy truce between communism and democracy can't hold given the incredibly uneven distribution of power.
4
I feel really strongly for the people in Hong Kong. Having been there just once, I saw how different it is in terms of "freedom" compared to what they were promised in 1997 when China took them back. It is such a great city and they need to stay strong and win this.
6
Looks like the British did not negotiate a good deal. It's difficult to go from a free open society to one where people know they will eventually be incorporated into a police state where the government controls the media and controls access to the internet. Even though the violence is out of control one can understand the frustration. President Xi, from what I understand, was a college student in the mid west who lived with an American host family. I'm sure he was impressed with the freedoms he had while living here. But now he is the autocratic leader who wants to clamp down and control the rights of people in Hong Kong. If he really wants Hong Kong to look like a mainland city he might start with having them drive on the right hand side. That's one thing that stands out with stark contrast from the mainland.
2
Hong Kong was never a free society under the British. It was only towards the end when they were about to hand over Hong Kong that they hurriedly introduced some semblance of freedom. For a decades they ran it like an island fiefdom with a viceroy appointee.
7
@Mario I disagree. When I first went to Hong Kong in 2005 I met up with a native Hong Kong lady who told me she preferred growing up under the British rule than China. Every British colony had some sort of governor. And they had many colonies all over the world. For most of my life Hong Kong was under the British than China. I don't recall this sort of violence that takes place. The issue is not whether society was not open under the British but that, at least when I went there first time over 14 years ago that they see themselves as a free society. I was there in December 2017 I had no problem using the internet and I did not need to use a VPN to contact New York via the web. One thing we know for sure the people in Hong Kong will lost lots of freedoms when China takes full control in another 28 years.
China will crush the protesters sooner or later. Probably sooner.
And, let’s face it, Hong Kong is part of China, special agreements notwithstanding. All sovereign nations, including the U.S., ultimately have the authority to impose its political system, even if repressive, across its entire territory.
The U.S. should view this as an opportunity. We should immediately accept hundreds of thousands, maybe even one million, Hong Kong residents as refugees. They are generally well educated and many have decent financial resources. Most speak fluent English and have a strong belief in democracy and capitalism.
We need an America First immigration policy that views situations like this as an opportunity to poach human resources and even financial resources from around the world.
36
A few flaws in your grand authoritarian-loving plan. Hong Kong is like everywhere else in terms of having a prosperous and well-educated elite. But those are greatly outnumbered by poor people who are often neither. Which group is more likely to emigrate? And by the way. Very few people really wish to leave their home and take refugee elsewhere. It is generally a last desperate resort. The great majority of Mexicans have zero interest in leaving their warm, friendly homes for a difficult, dangerous and expensive trip to our cold and hostile country. And most of those who do, can't wait to go back. More cross the border going back south every year than the other way around. But keep believing the propaganda that everyone in the world wants to go come here.
4
I guess the CCP's idea is what works in Xinjiang province with the Uighurs (mass imprisonment, forced "reeducation") could work in Hong Kong.
8
China blaming the U.S for the democracy protests is untrue. Trump has expressed sympathy for China’s authoritarian dictator, hasn’t he?
7
China digs in even on the smallest of its land claims. They seize disputed islands and literally create other ones.
Although China may bide its time - 2047 is not too distant for a nation that plans over decades - it will NEVER give up Hong Kong.
5
This will not end well for Hong Kong. China's leaders are indifferent to domestic and international public opinion. They'll exert whatever power is necessary to dampen the protests, and use this as an excuse to tighten their control over the day to day lives of Hong Kong's citizens. That's my prediction. I hope I'm wrong.
54
@Ken Morris
If the U.S. and other Western countries put principles above economics, China would not feel it could act the way it does.
Pressing China economically is one of the few good things Trump has done, even if his methods have been farcically careless.
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@Ken Morris It can't end any other way. Furthermore, Trump, the GOP, and ultimately GOP Mega Donors, have made made clear that their focus is on milking anything and everything to grow their own personal wealth. They are d2ooming the planet and everyone on it for all they care, so long as they resolve their resentments and get what they feel they're entitled to.
Where is America in this? Where is Trump's grand, prime time speech about the need for a government to allow people who want democracy to have it? Where is American support for average citizens clamoring for free elections, risking their lives before the eyes of the world to defy an authoritarian government that wants to dictate the type of leadership the people of Hong Kong should have? I thought Trump wanted to confront China, so where's the confrontation? I thought America cared about democracy, but our leaders and our commentators and our people seem to be sitting this one out on the sidelines. I guess we don't want democracy anymore, or care if others have it when they want it.
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@Joe
Obviously, Trump and the Republican party scorn the idea of truly free and open elections (witness their own, repeated efforts of voter suppression and inviting foreign interference in our own elections). They are on the side money, corruption and big business, not liberty, human rights or democracy. Their ultimate objective is oligarchy, where the wealthiest few crony-capitalists have control, as in Russia. Trump's rhetoric of "standing up to" China is merely a diversion to appeal to his isolationist, xenophobic supporters.
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@Joe It’s stunning that someone from the Left Coast wants a war with China. This is internal to China. These protesters will drive out business from Hong Kong so it will no longer be a city of importance to anyone.
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@Joe Where is Cortez and the Squad when their kindred spirits go after innocent people. That's right, Twitter Armies are so powerful!
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Hong Kong, like New York and London, is a financial capitol of the world.
But it's in China's backyard. That makes all the difference.
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@betty durso to this date those financial capitals all have one thing in common, they are or have been functioning democracies. The freedoms that come with being part of a democracy are vital to their continued success.
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@C. R. JusticeCapitalism seems to work even better without Democracy. Just look at China!
This saga unfolding in Hong Kong is both sad and inevitable It became inevitable when Xi decided to use repression to deal with rampant corruption in China. When he came to power there were those who believed he would liberalize the country. Instead he turned out to be deeply authoritarian and a control freak. It was only a matter of time before he turned his attention to Hong Kong. He wanted more control and thought he could get it by blocking democratic voting and slowly taking away autonomy. It was a very serious miscalculation that backfired badly. Now the hardening of positions on both sides will inevitably lead to a Tienanmen Square 2.0. China will win the crackdown but pay a huge political and economic cost for it. Globally it should be seen as part of the dark era we live in where autocrats clamp down on democratic institutions in neighboring regions to gain control to try to satisfy their insatiable hunger for power. They never seem to understand the huge price they will pay. Other examples are Putin and Crimea as well as Modi and Kashmir
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The number of comments here supporting Beijing’s position is shocking to me. The Chinese government is authoritarian at a minimum; fascistic in many of its more deplorable actions (against Tibet, the Uighers, Tiananmen, and so forth).
Anyone commenting from the United States, a country founded by individuals insisting on their right to self-governance, should be firmly on the side of the protestors. The growing violence is disappointing to see, yes; the economic implications will likely be enormous; but the values of democracy are far more important.
It’s an excellent foil for the current situation in the U.S. The political elite became so market-focused that it forgot who it represented, and now we find ourselves in what seems like an intractable position.
Anyone arguing that “the costs are too high” has no idea what’s truly at stake.
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@nyc1987 I am on the side of the protesters, no doubt and for the same reason that I'm on the side of the deer being hunted by a killer with a gun.
In both cases, it matters not which side I am on. It only matters that the respective winners in these scenarios are a forgone conclusion.
"Might doesn't make right" but what does "right" or wrong have to do with what will inevitably happen?
@Charles Sager
When people start talking of "inevitabilities" vis-a-vis political/social/cultural struggles, it's a clear sign of a society where those in power have successfully neutered the power of the people to determine their own futures.
If the U.S. populace regularly responded to the injustices carried out within and beyond its borders in the way Hong Kong is responding to Beijing now, few people in the U.S. would feel anything is inevitable.
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@nyc1987 With respect, we are talking about China here, not the US. And I just keep thinking of what happened the last time China was faced with with this kind of dissent against what it believes to be its own interests.
China may very well pound these protesters (to say nothing of the entirety of Hong Kong) into dust, just like they did 30 years ago in Tiananmen Square. And just like then, the next crushing will be swallowed whole by history.
The Chinese Government perpetrates "terrorism" not the public. Ine inly has to look at Tibet to see the terrorism China has used against the Tibetan people.
Its time for real change in China, the US, and many other countries, run by dictators, despots and repressive governments.
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Ten years ago, Hong Kong was the financial capital of China, and mainlanders with the means made It their go-to destination for serious shopping. Those days are over. Back then, Hong Kongers looked down their noses at mainlanders, and now that they are no longer king of the hill, they openly despise them.
When the Brits were in charge, they treated the locals like second-class citizens. It seems more than a little disingenuous now to see these protesters clamoring for freedoms that they never much benefited from in the first place.
Shutting down an international airport? Why don’t they just send the CCP a handwritten invitation to crack them over the head?
For better or worse, Hong Kong is a part of China. Get used to it.
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@Thomas Caron
For better or worse, the colonies are a part of the British Empire. Get used to it.
Try thinking bigger.
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@Thomas Caron
You're exactly right.
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A downturn of HK economy might solve the problem for China.
These kids - and some of their parents - have no clue the world's economies are teetering. HK is no longer as valuable as it was back in 1997. In one statistics, it amounts to 3% of China's GDP now versus 20+ back in 1997. Capital flight and the rise of Shenzhen and Shanghai could deal severe harms to the region. And we have not considered the flight of the skilled workers.
Already, this protest has really cost the most harms to local eateries and shops, even the HK government may be humiliated. The high rental cost has never been good to ma and pa proprietors while chain stores have negotiating power. Shuttering a few weekends could only make things worse.
Yesterday, CBS interviewed a protester kid. He speaks perfect non Queen's english. Perhaps he is back from either Canada or the U.S. for the summer. So that leads to the question: how many of those are holding a foreign passport? Probably not a lot. But these kids have a fall back plan. They just leave when things go bad. A majority of the kids have nowhere to go. They are ruining their own home --- for what purpose?
China is fighting with Trump & co right now. So long as its mainland is secure, it has time. But it is also famous for holding a grudge. While HK may not be of immediate danger, forcing Cathay Pacific to get rid of its unruly employees is a taste of what it can do. HK needs to make itself indispensable to China, not expendable
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I would like to understand the concrete economic benefits to Beijing of having a smoothly running Hong Kong. That has got to be a consideration. Ms. Lam went too far too fast and needs to pay the price. On the other hand Xi can't afford to look weak because he has a wealth of demographic challenges coming ever more into a tough reality. The thing that absolutely makes no sense is 300,00 Canadian citizens living in Hong Kong. The utter nonsense of dual citizenship should be stopped. By and large I'd guess these are wealthy people who have bought themselves parachutes of escape from where they really want to be. I have not much use for that. If you have a choice about where you can be a citizen, you need to make that choice and not use your multi-country citizenship as a magic get out of jail escape from where you'd prefer to be in favor of where your mercenary instincts send you for the moment with no real commitment or loyalty. I think the idea of trying to attract rich people for citizenship doesn't create nearly the loyalty as compared to helping a less advantaged person. Off to the highest bidder at any time....
@Charles M Yes - 300,000 Canadians residing in Hong Kong
It was working, was it not, well enough until Xi. Two systems, one people. Then:
"Mr. Zhang also rejected the protesters’ demands for free elections, saying the Chinese government would not be willing to consider any electoral system that does not allow Beijing to screen a list of candidates, according to Mr. Tien. Anything short of that, Mr. Zhang said, would be as good as giving up control of Hong Kong."
Xi-thought tells people how to think, how to feel, how to live, and here most importantly, who to vote for.
Xi is the great father of the Chinese people, or so he puts forth; only the citizens of Hong Kong don't want a Father. They want a representative government that works for their interests.
Are their aspirations not the true aspirations of a free, adult humanity?
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@Paul McGlasson
This is ridiculous. For 100 years, Hong Kong Chinese were ruled by the British - there was no democracy, no elections, no representative government that worked for their interests. The government was appointed by the Queen. Since 1997, Hong Kong Chinese have floundered with their identity. Americans continue to falsely claim that Hong Kong Chinese knew freedom and democracy. They didn't. Yes, they don't want to live under the authoritarian Xi regime, but who would, right? There is such confused reporting and comments alike on the Hong Kong protests.
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You can thank Margaret Thatcher for this mess. She didn't have the military will to stand up to Deng Xiaoping when Britain still had the opportunity to protect Hong Kong's democracy. Most famously falling down the stairs after a rather tense round of negotiations. Britain sold Hong Kong out. This is the result.
I support the protesters but I don't expect a happy ending. The only thing that can prevent authoritarian rule now is turning off the financial spigot to China through Hong Kong. The West doesn't have the will to do that either though because it will likely hurt the global economy as much as China. That might have been an option in 1984 but not anymore. Hong Kong therefore becomes the Taiwan that wasn't.
Thanks Thatcher...
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Our prayers are with the people of Hong Kong.
Xi and hiis henchmen could have had a peaceful transition if they had waited for the end of the treaty. But they couldn't wait. Their greed is unbounded.
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This reporting is extremely important. The youth everywhere are our future and our legacy, literally. We should pay attention. The press conference presented an excellent synecdoche of the broader values clash. Real reporters demanding real answers (liberal democracy composed of free citizens) and Communist-dependent non-representative officials conflating “rule of law” (fazhi) with the type of Communist “social stability” (weiwen) the Party thinks they are achieving by turning mainland Chinese subjects into political automatons. (By the way CCP, your people will surprise you one day).
I recommend to stop calling Taiwan’s pan-green coalitions “pro-independence.” Although this word is used in Taiwan’s press, it does not carry the same connotation as it does to English readers. Taiwan has never part of the PRC. Both blue (Chiang Kai-shek’s progeny) and green camps (ruling DPP and associated sympathizers) in Taiwan would argue Taiwan, either under the name “Taiwan” or rump “Republic of China” — as opposed to the “People’s” Republic of China (Communist Party-State dictatorship) — is already an independent, sovereign country, which is fully supported by the historical record and present status. The blue camp is just more willing to collaborate with the Communists for their own goals. Calling DPP “pro-independence” implies Taiwan (or “Republic of China”) is not already independent and seeks independence, which affirms ubiquitous Communist discourse/propaganda.
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All people requesting freedom and democracy should have it! FREE HONG KONG!
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I worry about the young of Hong Kong. But maybe just maybe, this could be the thin wedge that cracks open the awful regime which is the Chinese Communist party. Fingers crossed
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There were no problems until a young Hong Kong man murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan, dumped her body there, and returned to Hong Kong.
To bring this man to justice in Taiwan where the murder took place it was necessary to issue an extradition law as there was none.
The media seems to have forgotten this focusing instead on the so-called undemocratic situation. There was never any democracy under British rule.
The faces of the killer and his victim should be plastered all over Hong Kong and the internet to keep the focus where it belongs. Hong Kong should not become a haven for murderers.
This unrest plays in the hands of those who want to damage China.
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@Francoise Hembert There were plenty of problems - Umbrella protest a few years ago. The extradition law proposal that kicked these latest protests off was the straw that broke the camels back. Yes, HK might have had colonial rule = but vastly better than what HK youth are facing today - and I don't think China needs any help in "damaging its reputation" - witness the repression of their own people - Uyghur people.
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One anecdotal case however appalling should not steer a policy that affects millions of people.
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Hong Kong on a collision course with Beijing? Say it isn't so! I'm shocked, utterly shocked!
Of course they are, and everyone who is at all savvy about the politics of that side of the world knew that some twenty years ago.
Back in 1987, the Brits finally gave up the colonialist ghost and signed some twenty-year sign off to Beijing when it came to Hong Kong. Everyone -- and I mean everyone involved -- knew it would come to this. And it has...
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When HK had global financial power acquired through the imprimatur of Western elites to be gatekeeper to mainland China's market, HSBC and Cathay and other international corporate powers bent to HK's regulatory guidance. Now... who cares? Trade in Shanghai. Ship to Shenzhen. Exhibit in Guangzhou.
HK is a vestigial city. The appendix of China.
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@john
You nailed it!
THAT is the real reason for the young Hong Kong Chinese displeasure with the state of affairs. The economy has tanked because of China's rise. There are limited job opportunities and the future is bleak.
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I would like to be reading NYT’s reports on:
(1) What Chaiman Xi’s opponents within the Chinese Communist Party and within Party’s military apparatus (People’s liberation Army) want to do in terms of party power struggle;
(2) How much declines of the wealth of rich government/Party officials/their families and of CITIC in Hong Kong can be tolerated and/or the wealth fleeing Hong Kong;
(3) What university students and underemployed recent graduates in People’s Republic are thinking about the Hong Kong unrest; and
(4) What coverage the media of democratic states, near and afar, are offering to their audience.
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