How’s this unlikely? We have seen cia’s footprints all over in the color revolutions in all parts of the world. It should be highly likely! Haha
37
The sad truth is that under this administration, I’m more inclined to believe the Chinese than our side.
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@md
You think one American woman and a lone Times reporter have managed to generate 100,000s of HK protesters to hit the streets? Maybe you should re-think that?
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I won't believe a regime which announced an international treaty as historic document and has never honored the promises in joint declaration. More, censors all the news and FB and YouTube within its country. Mainland Chinese only read what the government feeds them
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@md
You are a better judge of character than the vast majority of the people reading this article.
3
Should the Chinese consulate general, Huang Ping, meet with the leaders of protests like
- Anti-Trump protests, including Inauguration protests (200+ arrests, January 2017) and countless grass-root “resistance” movements?
- Anti-ICE protests, including Women’s March and Center for Popular Democracy Action’s July 2018 Senate protests (575 protesters arrested), Catholic Day of Action (70 arrested in July 2019)
- Anti-police protests such as the July 2019 Memphis protests (6 arrests)
- Other antigovernment protests such as the Puerto Rico protests (5 arrests, July 2019)
Also, should the Chinese government spin off its own versions of the National Endowment for Democracy and the National Democratic Institute to fund US protests with moneys and propaganda? Should China build its own version of the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies (CANVAS, provides tactical training for protests)? Note that China has thus far avoided “exporting revolutions.”
10
The United Front Work Department has been undermining democracies in North America, Taiwan and Australia employing ‘corrupting, coercive and covert’ methods. It buys democratic media outlets through investments to control editorial activities that suppress news critical of communist China and advance its agenda. It supports politicians at the local government level (mayors and legislators) that will do its bidding. The above democracies are plagued by ‘red media’ interference. China admits it. It might not support revolution but it certainly supports oppressive dictatorships worldwide.
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@Zhanwen Chen
The correct question is 'could...' and not 'should...' Most protesters in the U.S. would not be interested in associating with the representatives of the Chinese communists -- because of the evil reputation of the Chinese communists.
7
Who needs conspiracy when the Brits always give a mess when they pull out of their colonies, Middle East, India, Pakistan... and now Hong Kong?
Who needs conspiracy when the pro Beijing and pro Taiwan gangs have always been active in Hong Kong, like many U.S. universities?
Who needs conspiracy when one of the iconic pictures of this episode someone was waving an American flag and a Hong Kong flag?
Who needs conspiracy when the protesters are so well funded and organized?
When Snowden bailed America, his first stop was Hong Kong. You don't need to be a sino watcher to see a lot of going on underneath the cover when the Pearl of the Orient used to be apolitical.
This is not to defend the PRC. Quite on the contrary, this extradition bill is dumb and shows naked power grab. That said, a weak Hong Kong could be in Beijing's favor by supplanting it with Shenzhen and Shanghai. Those gullible people in Hong Kong are just too naive, the equivalence of fiddling when Hong Kong burns. To protect themselves from the Beijing's incursion before the 50 year expiration date is to build themselves up to be indispensable, not being expendable
6
My father had this saying, "What can you expect from a pig but a grunt?"
Of course the vile bullies in China will seek to blame anyone but themselves for the Hong Kong demonstrations.
This is standard practice for the Chinese and it has been that way for 50 years or more.
The USA has done more than any other country to help China become an industrial powerhouse, even giving them most favored nation status.
But you wouldn't know that if you were a Chinese student in China. According to their textbooks the USA has been trying to constrain China since the days of Abraham Lincoln.
Stand for a democratic Hong Kong.
Boycott Chinese made goods.
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China’s Assertion that the United States is behind the unrest is and so far- fetched There are many examples of this in recent history - Iran, Venezuela,Dominican republic ,Vietnam,etc
5
There is little doubt that Hong Kong is the best listening post for CIA to keep an eye on China. CIA had reportedly moved its Hong Kong HQ elsewhere immediately after 1997 when the Brits went home, but soon moved back to Hong Kong as the dust settled. No other location works better. But time is also running out. 2047 is not that far away and China will not tolerate CIA operations under the cover of US consulate after 2047. China had destroyed a network of Chinese CIA agents inside China in recent years, causing a panic at the States Department. Americans have also expanded its HQ in Taiwan and will no doubt try to hang in there for as long as feasible. Just usual spy craft. Everyone is in the same game.
4
Julie Eadah reminds me of Carrie Mathison on Showtime’s Homeland!
1
Andrew Higgins hasn’t written about this other foreign commander, https://twitter.com/chinavtv/status/1144594446937255942?s=21
NYT’s “comment review process” very much reminds me of what it has been repeatedly reporting on: tight censorship under an authoritarian control lol
11
Why on earth would American diplomats meet with the protest leaders if not trying to influence the outcome of this protests?
27
If we are involved in these protests it is not the first time. The US Embassy in Beijing played a leading role in the Tiananmen Square demonstrations, after all, and the riot in Chang'An Avenue.
Of the twenty-one leaders of the Tiananmen demonstrators on the most-wanted list fifteen were spirited out of China to Hong Kong, given false identities, passports and disguises and sent abroad. In total, eight hundred escaped with the help of MI6 using scramblers, infrared signalers and night-vision goggles. Many went first to France but most travelled on to the US for scholarships at Ivy League universities. Though investigations proved that Hong Kong’s Sun Yee On criminal triad was involved, Ambassador Lilley said they were ‘almost exclusively legal exfiltrations.’
Student Vice-President and leader of the Chang’An riot, Wang Yam, was exfiltrated and given British citizenship. In 2006, for the first time in modern British history he was tried in camera and found guilty of bludgeoning an elderly man to death in order to rob him. The Crown Prosecutor banned all media coverage and even speculation about the case but MI6, Britain’s intelligence agency, later admitted he was their agent.
18
China is trying to find the “black hands” all the time and blame them. Weibo (Chinese version of Twitter) was floating around a photo saying a CIA secret agent was stirring things up in Hong Kong last week. The agent’s name is Jason according to that Weibo message. He looks like Matt Damon...
12
Jason Bourne.
3
Communist China's "Red Hands" are all over democratic Taiwan and Australia exerting corrupting, covert and coercive influences aimed at undermining governments and public opinion.
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@Orange County Voice But nary a complaint from AOC and the Squad. They claim they are the future and influencers, right?
Mea culpa. We were also behind the troubles in Tibet, Tiananmen, the Falun Gong mass cult of 100 million members, the 50 million that starved under Mao and before that, up to 100 million poor souls that died in China's civil war. Shame on us.
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@Orange County Voice
Sarcasm noted. But there was in fact a CIA Tibet Program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program.
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@CS
Of course. The US helped China against Japan when Japan wanted to 'unify' China into the Great East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. The US also helped the Belgians, Dutch etc. against the Nazis when the Germans wanted to 'unify' the Germanic nations. The world should thank the US for helping the Tibetans against the Chinese communists.
7
"But both Moscow and Beijing have in recent years sought to blame outsiders for domestic troubles"
Yes, and in America there are those who cast the blame against the Russians for Mr. Trump's defeat of Ms. Clinton. It's always easier to blame outside interference rather than one's own incompetence when one loses. Of course it's possible that Ms. Clinton lost because of Russian interference, but the Russians couldn't have pulled it off if Ms. Clinton provided a scintilla of something to support in her candidacy.
Maybe the Americans are urging on the Hong Kong students--Americans have been bullying their way into foreign elections for decades, so this would be nothing new--but the Hong Kong people surely do not need encouragement from Americans to understand that Beijing wants to oppress them.
6
If only the US was powerful enough to get 1/2 a city to demonstrate for democracy. We can’t even build a tunnel between nyc and Jersey.
18
As bizarre as the accusations leveled against Ms. Eadeh may sound, they were always intended for domestic consumption in the Mainland, not the HK public or the international community at large.
9
@curious mouse Not this time. China has raised this issue with the US Consulate General and the counter-protesters have been galvanized by this episode.
1
@curious mouse "for domestic consumption in the mainland", that is a lame excuse to brush inconvenient fact under the rug. Time to acknowledge US government's role in color revolutions around the world, including HK. After all, everybody knows about it already.
1
might be a good idea to relocate her to a different place for a bit. I understand we must stand up to the government but alas, I would prefer she not be in harms way.
5
@tom If she was in harms way, which I highly doubt it, she brought it upon herself by stirring up chaos and violence in HK. Those who plays with fire will perish by it.
A lot of Americans here are commenting on how it's possible that Trump's administration IS intervening. As a student from Hong Kong, I can't tell you how much it hurts to see this. To believe and peddle Beijing's conspiracy theory doesn't just support its repressive intentions, it also dismisses the will and the capabilities of the Hong Kong people - it's unbelievably condescending.
Of course, you're angry at your President. Of course, you're cynical of his intentions. But don't let that translate into you supporting the fake news peddled by the CCP, a party which doesn't just ignore the calls of the Hong Kong people, but dismisses and belittles them.
52
I suspect many of them are communist Chinese living in the US. So, don’t get hurt. You people in HK must tough up to stand against red horror.
6
@EC
Your people's movement resonates deeply with our own past and continuing struggles for democracy -- I think you can count on sympathy and support from across the political spectrum here.
5
@EC
It is indeed insulting and condescending, and I'll add "ignorant", because clearly most of the commenters implying US involvement know nothing about Hong Kong or its history.
They seem to have ignored the news of 2 million Hong Kong people who took to the streets on just one day against the extradition law, dismissed the years of resistance by pan-democratic lawmakers, not noticed the arrest of young Umbrella movement protestors who demanded "real democracy" when they were being offered "fake democracy", or the silent march by lawyers and the strike by government workers, and the flood of support from Hong Kong people of all walks of life for these protests against the CCP's continued encroachment on their freedoms.
Give these Hong Kong people due credit: unlike much of the rest of the world, they have finally stood up to the CCP and called them out. It's about time the rest of the world opened their eyes, too.
All of you who imagine CIA involvement was needed to cause such massive protests need to educate yourselves on what has been happening in Hong Kong. Instead, you should be supporting the efforts of the Hong Kong protestors for standing up to the CCP for their rights.
And even if the US consulate staff DID meet with local leaders (from all sides), we shouldn't forget that this is their job!
13
China's accusation that "foreigners" are to blame for the problems China has caused in Hong Kong is no more absurd than trump calling asylum seekers on our border a foreign invasion. And at least Xi hasn't sunk so low as to call American foreigners rapists and murderers.
2
Why no pictures of this American consulate official?
4
It's time for Boris Johnson to take the disputes about the 1997 Treaty to the International Court of Justice and the UN. While the case at the UN won't get very far, it may help to build international support for sanctions on China.
5
@Amy
Naive notion.
3
Tariffs.
Tariffs would solve this problem.
7
Western intervention in the HK protests is not an impossibility. Like China and Russia, western nations, particularly the US, have not shied away from intervening abroad when compelled by the perception of self-interest. Of course, "our" intervention is always justified and "theirs" never is. Same old same old. However, the ongoing nature of these protests and the numbers of people involved suggest that the protests truly express the very real frustrations and fears of the people of Hong Kong. Whether or not these protesters have support - moral or otherwise - from foreigners is irrelevant to the reality of their grievances and their rights to air these grievances through protests (particularly when other means are not available). The foreign intervention argument seems to be merely the latest tactic deployed by the Chinese government to silence the legitimate voices of Hong Kongers.
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@AG
It can be both actually... internal frustrations, augmented by outside agitation.
Quite often the case, actually.
2
@Chuck
Yes, in situations like this it seems reasonable to assume intervention of some degree/kind - from moral and financial support to complex logistical and instrumental support. It strikes me, however, as unreasonable to assume that intervention in HK is exclusively western or that western intervention is necessarily of the latter kind. In fact, it is entirely possible that violence during recent protests was fomented by Chinese operatives. The situation is murky, and the Chinese government has much to gain by delegitimizing the protests. Significant "outside agitation" is only possible when "internal frustrations" have reached a boiling point, and this appears to be the case in HK. Beyond the temporary suspension of the renditions bill, the HK government has failed to do much to alleviate Hong Kongers' fears of Chinese government encroachment. All of this suggests that the primary "outside" power to be watched is China.
3
@AG Yes, because the Occupy movement did so well, right? It was carried out while Obama was president and he listened to their demands for reform (sarcasm emoji needed).
All of the increasing crazy hysteria coming from official Chinese media leaves the implication that the Beijing has no idea how to handle Hong Kong - possibly out of a fear that military intervention would fail and make the communist government look like a paper tiger. If that happened, it could set off a chain of events and lead to the quick collapse of their regime, similar to what happened to the Soviet Union and eastern European governments 30 years ago. That all occurred in the blink of an eye, and maybe the Chinese government is next on the chopping block, dependent on their ability or inability to subdue Hong Kong.
5
We need leaders that actually want diplomacy and engage in it. If China goes into an economic world wind just like our administration they will blame easy targets for the workers to target their ill will upon. Right now it’s the US for China.
The problem with not respecting trade is that if you are saying we won’t participate with you at all there is no reason for peace. Trade even with corrupt governments has the capacity to maintain peace. Working within that trade takes effort and often means compromise.
Trump team doesn’t talk, they make demands and denigrate anyone who doesn’t yield to them immediately.
1
Had Beijing simply honored their original commitment to not intervene in Hong Kong’s affairs for 50 years, none of this would be happening.
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@Scott
Article 23 of the Basic Law (BL 23) states:
The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organisations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organisations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organisations or bodies.
Pro-tip: read sources before posting
4
@Scott
Article 23 of the Basic Law (BL 23) states:
The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organisations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organisations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organisations or bodies.
3
@Sarah
That article 23 is meant to be so vague it can mean anything the CCP wants it to mean. The words subversion, political, treason, state secrets, etc, are meaningless because they are not defined.
4
"Ideological rivalry has now subsided, with even China, though nominally still wedded to communism, showing no interest in exporting Marxism through subversion"
WHAT? Has the writer ever heard of The Confucius Institutes that infiltrate our campuses?
What does the writer think the "Belt and Road" project is? Just a nice way to get third world countries in debt?
6
@Sparky Jones Paranoid much? Teaching students Chinese language is not "infiltrate our campuses"! Do you know that US government created a radio station called "voice of America" that is not even accessible inside the USA? that is infiltrating.
1
But both Moscow and Beijing have in recent years sought to blame outsiders for domestic troubles --- just as Democrats blame "Russian interference" for their 2016 election losses.
1
@George
Oh Lord.
Alternate facts may have worked for you once, but I doubt... even with Putin’s help again, it will work again.
2
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/sunday-review/the-war-of-words-in-china.html
Here is a NYT writer who apparently found that someone on the internet posted things about him that he didn't like. Someone on the internet! So he frames an entire article insinuating that the big bad Chinese govt was somehow behind it. Talk about conspiracy theory.
Yet the NYT narrative here derides and dismisses any possibility of US involvement in Hong Kong, despite the fact that such "interventions" are a well-known playbook of American foreign policy. Ask Nuland in Ukraine or Iran. Whether it may or may not have involved the named persons in the article gives no grounds for blanket denial. The evidence is far stronger than anything Andrew Jacobs had when blaming China for controlling wikipedia.
Somehow I suspect the NYT was in no hurry to uncover any actual evidence linking the US to Hong Kong though. Call it a hunch.
27
Our world first saw former PM Theresa May undone by trying to resolve Brexit; now we see Carrie Lam trying to lead a population of citizens who mostly can't trust her. Mrs. Lam was installed by Beijing on the understanding she could maintain economic and political advantages for Beijing and now the exemplary population of HK, second-class citizens first under the Commonwealth and now China, realize their slim rights are eroding and their potential share in the region's wealth is not to be realized. What will Carrie Lam do? Where will she be living in three years?
8