Every cause in history has had zealots : radical Islam; fascism; communism; colonialism; white supremacy; and slavery to name the obvious. At the same time, there is zealotry in the right to choose and right to life causes, gun control, black lives matter, lgbqt, me too and endless other causes. While some want to pin these shootings on white supremacists, it is clear that many of these events have been undertaken by individuals who have zero connection to white supremacy and more like are sympathizers of more progressive causes. This is in no way is meant to justify any of the shootings but laying the responsibility totally on white supremacy is a naked attempt to pin all of this on President Trump. What have past presidents done? What has Congress done? Very little because the vast majority of Americans are not willing to forego their constitutional rights to bear arms.
Gun control may be part of the problem but there are many other relevant issues that need to be addressed simultaneously, particularly identification and substantive treatment of people with mental health problems. “profiling” is a dirty word for some but until more is done to ID these shooters in advance, the carnage will continue.
3
The sense of existential emptiness on the part of the people who fall into this extremist vortex can't be underestimated. These are often young men who see no meaning to their lives and are given a chance at glory, of martyrdom, for a "just" cause. They are the fuel that only needs to be lit to cause great harm.
As a society, we need to cut off their sources of radicalization as best as we can. If we see something, we need to say something to authorities and others about signs of dangerous tendencies. Mental health care needs to be bolstered, including longer periods of inpatient and outpatient care. And, needless to say, weapons that kill large numbers of people in a short period of time need to be removed from their environment completely.
Tough stuff to do but the sooner we move on it the safer we will all be.
4
This direct comparison is long overdue.
Each group believes their creation story and their prophet to be the one and only. Each uses spiritual text to justify their violent actions. And each would like to see their beliefs imposed on others by way of The State.
Is it any wonder the world is becoming more secular?
To rational, thinking people, organized religion is an increasingly unattractive option.
9
I'm relatively young (25) and have only known a globalized world with immediate online news to guide my consideration of current events. I wonder if violence/terrorism has been ever-present or if it is really manifesting in a way fundamentally different than the resource squabbles of our prehistoric ancestors.
I pose this question - have antiquated writings molded a space for extremism latching to these texts meant to enhance society (Bible, Quran, 2nd Amendment of Constitution)? Are societies around the world manipulating old propositions out of context in a way that enables violence never before seen? Have we changed are human beings post technological-revolution?
I say this as an electrical engineer who has been impassioned by the power of the internet in regards to fact-checking and the propagation of truth. I work every day to enhance the future of internet speed / technology, wondering if it is the means of our destruction.
I welcome comments.
6
To state that White nationalists have no formal leadership ignores the fact that, for them, Trump is the undisputed, and inspirational leader.
14
What is "stunning" about it? It's been obvious for a long time.
Extremism is extremism, and at the end, they all end up looking very similar.
10
"They [the Christchurch and El Paso killers] also say their attacks were intended to provoke more racial violence, hastening the [final race war's] arrival."
I seem to recall that this has been a theme in white-supremacy mass murderers for a long time, long before the internet came along. But somehow, after the killings the 'inevitable' race war never seems to materialize.
I'm reminded of the running bit in the old "Rocky and Bullwinkle" cartoons:
"Again? But that trick NEVER works!"
"This time for sure!"
3
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter…
With the possible exception of America’s PoC I suspect America in general has forgotten how “wars of liberation” are fought.
www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/is-one-mans-terrorist-another-mans-freedom-fighter/257245/
Add to this brew the ingredient of Climate change increasing emphasis on the apocalyptic, and the mixture becomes a deadly toxic combustable bomb.
F3
4
Guns, Germs and Steel solidified European control over the world in the second half of the last millennium.
Will guns, racism and global warming destroy Europe and America?
The El Paso killer cites global warming as a driver of immigration and “race-mixing,” which through his racism he sought to counter, buying weapons of war online and committing a terror attack of mass murder.
The US is hurtling towards a crisis it is Ill-equipped to handle politically, institutionally and militarily.
Imagine convincing the Republican senate that white supremacists must be killed by Pentagon drones before they attack, or that the FBI needs to monitor all white Christian males between the ages of 15 and 50 for radicalization. That was the the legal and military cornerstone of the strategy to deal with extremist Islamic global terrorism.
Maybe an Iraqi-led invasion of America would work! American politicians approved of a similar strategy with the American-led invasion of Iraq, in the name of the “war” on terror.
That was the American response to global extremist Islamic terrorism. What tools does America have at all to deal similarity with global white nationalist terrorism?
3
I see no mention of the influence of Stephen Miller; the architect of White House evil.
8
According to Charles Manson, their murders were also suppose to hasten a race war. It is a shame that psychos like that can now all plot and bounce ideas off each other so much easier today. Technological advances rarely only have benefits.
1
This headline is so absurd! The mass killings in America is based primarily on easy access to murderous war type guns. Stop giving this easy access and you will stop mass killings.
9
@Joyce Miller
The lady just don't get it.
F3
3
Another excellent Interpreter column. Keep them coming please.
8
What both ISIS and white terrorists have in common is a quest for power and control of people and territory.
Both ISIS and white nationalists persuade and recruit the lonely misfits, the angry, and the adolescent via the internet. ISIS promotes a perverse Islam and a promise of Paradise. White nationalists promote camaraderie and hatred of, and eventual conquest over, people of color. Both promote terrorism.
Both groups are fighting losing battles, most simply because no one likes being murdered. ISIS is limited by lack of funding, and Western and allied forces fighting against them.
White nationalists, if it's a final race war they seek, are simply outnumbered, worldwide, by people of color and their allies.
America's white nationalists are offered power and control by a President sympathetic to their cause. He inflames their hatred. Republicans lawmakers support them by suppressing the Black, Hispanic and Asian vote as much as possible.
Republicans are eager to redistrict in such a way that limits minority votes. They hate immigrants, in keeping with white nationalists. They very much want to hang on to the power and control they have now, with the support of white nationalists.
Racist Republicans must be voted out of office. Toxic racist websites must be taken down by law enforcement, daily. Voter suppression efforts must be blocked. Mitch McConnell must allow Senate review and voting on gun control legislation.
14
The right wing is the country whether it is identified as “white supremacist” or not are not the opposite of ISIS but brothers. They focus on those who do not agree with their orthodoxy and women. This is the face of the American right..gun in hand going after women, children, the vulnerable and the unsuspecting in order to push forward their warped sense of reality.
7
Who benefits from the radicalization of Americans? The same entities that benefit from disrupting our elections.
9
This rise of extremist ideology seems to be closely linked to few other factors, valid almost globally, like growing income inequality; deteriorating quality of public education that fail to teach even few basics of science and logic; reducing hope for a better future via traditional ways like being honest, hard working etc.; flood of cunning and opportunist politicians, who are more than willing to exploit that ignorance and religious+racial bigotry only to satisfy their thirst for fame/wealth; all coupled with increasing frustration among declining number of properly educated and civilized people all around the world.
Most businesses, mainly the successful ones (like social networking sites, Video game makers, Artificial Intelligence developers etc), are more than happy to collude with that lot of politicians and public craze. Doing the "right" thing is lowest in their priority list. No wonder corporate ethics is least preferred topic not only for for-profit businesses but also for public universities and other non-profit ones.
7
God is good and wise. Everyone has the power to say yes or no to God. There is a Heaven for those who follow the word of God. Those that fail to follow the goodness of God live in a state of confusion. There is darkness for those who wish to do as they wish. Atheists say they do not believe in the existence of God nor in the existence of Satan. Atheists are asked how they are able to discern between decent and indecent, between moral and immoral, and between right and wrong when raising a family and little children. Atheists are asked if they depend on the supreme court jesters and man’s laws to provide those answers. Atheists are asked if their parents and families taught them right from wrong. Atheists are asked if their past generations of family histories were founded in Christianity, the Bible, church and God. Their answer is I believe in no one, I am who I am, I answer to no one, and I do what I want to do.
Blessed are those who do not see yet believe. To those who believe in His name: who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In the end as Jesus was crucified Jesus said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” And among believers He lives forever. These words will only have meaning to Christians, but not to atheists and agnostics.
1
@manoflamancha--I think belief in God is generally a positive thing. It indicates optimism. Religious belief has also been used over the centuries to control people, e.g., the Crusades, the Inquisition, ISIS.
I am not sure how your comment relates to how White Terrorists in the U.S. are similar to ISIS. Could you please explain, because the Christian religion comment you posted masks this connection.
I'm well versed in religion, so please, go directly to the point without Christian reference. Thanks!
4
There's a reluctance to call white nationalist terrorism what it is because the terrorists are too similar to the reluctants for comfort. There's a "not my kid" mentality that leads them to deny that someone they see as "one of us" could be responsible for such violence, and if they're "one of us", they're afraid of being defined as white nationalists and terrorists themselves, especially if they hold some of the same beliefs. It's easier to call muslims terrorists because there's no identification with them. They're "them".
If someone is bending over backwards to avoid defining white nationalist terrorism, or any other toxic issue, they are uncomfortable with how close they are to its definition.
2
And what about continued and devastating gun violence in places like Chicago and Detroit? Cultural? Gun access? Belief system? All?
9
@leftrightmiddle In order to argue that you have to explain why countries that have strict gun laws have fewer gun deaths than the US-- by very large margins. In other words, we don't have federal gun laws, and countries which have federal laws no epidemic of shootings. So what possible reason could we have to not at least try stricter gun laws on the federal level?
19
@Dominic I am not arguing against stricter gun laws. I'm all for them. Background checks are at the top of my list. I would suspect, however, that the violence in, for example, the cities I mentioned are not done with legal firearms. How do we get rid of those? How do we stop them from coming into the country?
8
Gun-possession within the home is theoretically a right under the Mexican constitution. But Mexico also has extremely restrictive Federal gun-acquisition laws, and it requires a lot of paperwork to get official permission for legal gun ownership. In fact, there is only one officially-sanctioned gun store (the DCAM) in the entire country; it is located in Mexico City. But there were 33,000 gun deaths in Mexico last year.
3
Iraq, America killed 500 thousand people, including woman and children. And... no good reason.
Are Americans hypocrites?
Vote for a pacifist if you really believe what you are saying.
Money talks loudest to legislator ears. Democrats must move out of the powerless roll, there are many ways to take control, the main one today is stopping the sell of guns. We cannot wait for a group of wealthy, corporate, legislators to make this country safe by telling us we need a military industrial complex, when the war is within.
6
"Most terrorists are not born wishing to kill. They have to be groomed. " In many respects, education has failed America; let education help redeem it.
7
Ironically, the thing that does the most to protect right-wing extremists is political correctness. Fox and its acolytes may rail against it, but political correctness is what’s held us back as a society from looking at white nationalism and putting their terrorism on the same level as Islamic terror.
Both groups are far right-wing. Both preach ideologies of hate and bigotry. Both want to subjugate women. Both shun science. Both do everything they can to cultivate the worst in people, and to destroy the best.
The right-wing fanatics who cultivate this poison think that Donald Trump is the best thing to ever happen to their movement. Hopefully Trump will prove to be the straw that broke the camel’s back, and we will finally reckon with and expunge the terrorist ideology growing in our own backyard.
21
Caliphate and highly organized movement with specific aims vs. disorganized, aimless disaffected loners. The two don't seem to share any characteristics other than murder. That is, if you actually think about it.
11
But its followers who commit(ted) random acts of stochastic terrorism very much are, radicalized on the dark (or even not so dark) reaches of the web. Apocalypticism has been the zealot’s call for millennia; now it’s just white birth rates, ‘no-go zones,’ and looming ecofascism that drives them. This country has never tackled the issues of historic, systemic, and absolute racism that still roil our national body like a festering sore. The worst part is that the sore may kill us.
Tax cuts, share buybacks, and profit-centered business models are sending people to neo-liberal economic periphery. Groups of people in the core earn more than they need. Use the money to gain hard (control labor and time of others) and soft (charity) power over the periphery. People in the periphery are stuck in a meaningless life of working to keep their head above water. They resent the core. Can't do anything about it, cause democratic power structure is more dependent on the finance from groups who earn a lot more than the people in the periphery. Periphery is frustrated, hopeless, and angry.
Very few of them decided to channel their anger violently, while a significant part of the core/frustrated periphery is busy chanting out their frustrations and cheerleading for violent behavior indirectly. Empowering state with more power such as surveillance, extrajudicial killings, or detaining migrants will not do any better! Empowering periphery with opportunity, education, innovative wage calculation, accountable government and law enforcement, common gun safety and election finance, social investments is a good start.
5
This is also called blowback. If you dehumanize others, you eventually dehumanize yourself. That's what we did in Iraq, and are doing throughout the Middle East.
The question to seriously ask is: why?
22
While not specifically mentioned in this piece, the evangelical Christian worldview clearly informs the thinking of white nationalists in this country. In particular, the impending biblical apocalypse and the desire to hasten society at large toward that outcome as a means to attain a prophesied salvation for themselves. Ironically, this is the group that most often denounces the false claim that Islamic "sharia" law is in force here in the USA even while the most extreme morph into the loathed model of the extreme Islamist radical as noted here. Evangelicals need to take a hard look in the mirror and see what they have become and if they are actually the Christians they claim to be their leaders need to loudly and publicly denounce these mass killings perpetrated by homegrown terrorists.
17
@Bailey
It is interesting to note that none of the killers are or were practicing Christians, and most have no religion at all. The shooter in Dayton was a self proclaimed Satanist. It is also true that none of the killers have professed to kill in the name of God or Jesus Christ. Whereas, that is certainly not true with the Islamist terrorists.
6
So who exactly are these Nihilist, white nationalists living amongst us? Where do we look for them? What do we do when we see one? It's one thing to prophesies that they exist but outside some nonsensical dribble left behind by some crazed assassin there's nothing to suggest that there are legions of white supremacists lurking about in the inky shadows of our society eager to launch a campaign to take over our nation. It's not to discount that there are extremist of every ilk amongst us. We're a democratic nation and tolerating political differences is one of the founding principles which defines us. Extreme, radical actions on either end of the political spectrum will not be tolerated by Americans, especially in our country. No such group has nor ever will be successful in toppling our democracy. It's one thing to be ever diligent completely another to monger fear.
4
"White nationalism in all forms has been on the rise for some years. Its violent fringe was all but certain to rise as well."
As if white nationalism in all of its forms isn't fundamentally violent.
4
Sexual frustration among young, single men is also a factor underlying both ends of the terrorism spectrum.
13
Anyone who is engaged with this issue would appreciate HBO's series the Loudest Voice, which is charting the rise of Roger Ailes, because frankly I have been shocked to realize how much he did to stoke anti-immigrant hatred and division in the country. Shocked.
5
Many, if not most, GOP politicians including President trump, must share responsibility for this.
7
Sadly, it's going to be very difficult to change things. "White" is considered to be pure by many. It's how the whole "race" thing works. Obama himself was as much "white" as he was "black", but he himself identified as black, as does everyone, the most politically correct included.
It's a fundamental issue that lies in the entire setup of American politics. Whilst the "one drop" idea remains, there is no hope.
We must educate people on genetics, and not fear whatever truth comes from it. "White" isn't better, and yet at the same time it's different. We need to understand gene pools, and cultural differences, whilst at the same time setting examples of just how much the same we are underneath.
The real way to break down this race nonsense is to simply mix. It's to set examples, and to face truths such as statistics. The media does need to be more responsible, and highlight not just the rare examples of racial conflict, but the daily examples of racial harmony, even though such things don't sell newspapers.
That, or just wait until our coming robot overlords decide to deal with us. And that'll be as ugly as it could ever be.
1
Social contagion takes hold in many instances, and it is important to also think about what kind of void these pestilential ideas are filling: one of meaning, purpose, and fellowship.
We are so far gone that perhaps it is unsurprising to observe that a society that has placed every resource and legal support behind profit motives is crumbling under the weight of that soullessness.
As the analysis points out, these troubled people are taken in when they feel alienated, without purpose, are afraid--and stumble into an outlet that promises answers for why the world is scary, fellow zealots who offer friendship, and some kind of path; it's terrible, but by failing for generations to place the welfare of our communities first, failing to properly desegregating schools and giving them equal resources (if we can't learn together, how do we live together?), for failing to teach kids what it means to be an engaged and ethical citizen, we have sent generations out into a void without a rudder...of course, most folks are just fine. Normal people don't grasp onto hate-filled ideologies to handle life's challenges; but those at the fringes, who most need to be given support are left to twist in the wind until something grabs them. And here in America, for troubled, alienated, young white men, that things is sometimes White Nationalism.
7
We can't "afford" to teach ethics and civics in our educational system. We don't teach penmanship, music or geography either. Figure it out. We either are building a civilization, or we are tearing one down. If you a tax adverse mercantilist others people's children's education isn't your problem. We need to come together with a genuine, common purpose. Business and just feeding at the trough doesn't cut it. If you are wealthy- you have an obligation to lead. If you don't understand that- you have failed in your OWN education.
13
They do teach these things in European schools, but you still have the problem there.
2
@JMG I suspect that part of the problem is that when a child is told one thing the schools and the opposite by their parent(s), it's usually the parental ideology that wins out.
1
Well, of course. Extremists are extremists. Their worldview is the same regardless of the colours of their flags. The ideology or religion they espouse is merely a vehicle for expressing that worldview.
Of course it's more complicated than that, but IMO that's the place to start if you want to understand them.
This is correct. Folks must inform themselves as these are no lone wolf narratives much as the GOP would like people to think. Kathryn Belew's carefully articulated book and NY Times article on how this is decades old in formation and how these communities have benefited from the rise of social media. It's a movement that wants to be in the background, and appear fragmented with eerie uprisings during Democratic terms until now with a sympathetic and vocal friend in the White House. It is indeed very much an organized movement, with texts, goals, methodologies, consistencies with race war and anti-US government activities as its ultimate goal through terrorism, which is a recruiting tool. Sound familiar?
6
All nations have unstable individuals but only the US practically hands them military grade equipment and an unlimited supply of ammunition!
One doesn’t have to look far for nations with rational civilian arms policies (e.g. Switzerland and Israel).
18
Looking at the parallels is certainly worthwhile as we struggle to create a safer place. And have no doubt, “we” is fundamental. No human can protect himself—by himself.
Though the big picture on psychology and tribe and grievance should be studied and understood, let’s not be distracted from the one fact that makes the problem so much worse here in the USA, the Supreme Court's reading of the second amandment—your right to terrorize me with a weapon supersedes my right live in tranquility. The reality of current law, under this second amendment interpretation, is that any sociopath can acquire the tools and use them to kill a hundred innocents in a matter of nanoseconds, compared to any protective response. It's time “we” change the law.
11
From a historical perspective, it is comically funny that whites are afraid of a genocide here. if anything, considering the way America was taken by European peoples in the 1700s and 1800s, and the race into the west, and closer to current time, the rather unnecessary dropping of the bomb in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the American establishment has consistently and always favored European Americans over others. It manifested in the way the fledgling nation appropriated land and resources via genocide of Native Americans and African Americans, here in North America, and people of color in Asia (see Roosevelt, Theodore through Kennedy, John and then again from Bush, HW through Obama to the current POTUS).
In other words, genocide is the usual currency of the American establishment, always in favor of the white population. Now that the establishment may change--or so the whites feel--they feel an urge to take arms and perpetrate terror; after all, it is in the national DNA to terrorize. The only difference now is that the establishment (including this paper) look like fools in denying it anymore.
The other comical thing is the reaction some of the commenters have to this column. They are so offended by this fact. I don't know where they live, but if you read history--any history--this fact should be obvious to you.
9
As this article pointed out the tendency toward terrorism, including genocide, is a human condition, not simply a white American condition. Look at Rawanda, Cambodia, etc. We need to address it as such. We must undertake to amplify the best of humanity and suppress the worst tendencies.
7
Thank you for calling this what this is--terrorism and a threat to this country's security.
9
Stunning parallel? Duh. It is all hate, just change the issue at hand. All other aspects are similar. See Eric Hoffer, The True Believer, of many decades past.
4
Prior to the violence, there is a more fundamental psychological issue that is almost constantly reinforced by Republicans in Congress and Trump: victimhood.
Through lies, propaganda, and manufactured myths, whites want to believe that they are somehow the victims, as if that were ever the case in the US. Whites have always been the most privileged with most power and wealth.
Besides victimhood, the other driving factors are being unable to accept change mentally/emotionally, and being highly susceptible to self-delusion.
The current crop of Republicans have made clear through their actions that *any means* justifies their ends. There are no laws or boundaries that will prevent them from achieving their ultimate goal: a white ruling class with unlimited power that controls everything and everyone.
15
Of course there are parallels. This is because terrorism is terrorism. Murder is murder. I do not understand the need to assign specific identities to all things that result in the same outcome. The common thread in all these acts is the end result - death. Whether it be caused by gas, bombs, arson, knives, or automobiles plowing through targeted crowds, the intention is the same. The only intent of someone obtaining an assault weapon is...well, yes...assault. I've yet to hear of a hunter taking a weapon such as those used in ElPaso and Dayton to the forest to hunt deer. How silly to have this splitting of hairs over the reason for the violence. It is an effort that yields nothing but a delay in treating the real problem: the easy availability of weapons of mass destruction.
13
@GMG You're largely right, especially at the first. BUT YOU'RE WRONG AT THE LAST LINE. The real problem is a "Marianne Williamson" one- it's an attitudinal one, an absence in some of an appreciation, love if you will, of the "other." As this is so complex and varying in individuals; including matters of maturity, faculties, background, and possibly mental status, it's easy to seize on the availability of weapons, as the problem. And while guns need to be delimited, please don't over simplify this real problem.
1
Why isn't the administration asking "how were these men radicalized, and what can we do to prevent others from being radicalized?" just like they did concerning Muslim terrorists? They refuse to admit their own policies and incendiary rhetoric is a motivator for these domestic terrorists. They refuse to place responsibility on white nationalist organizations, except for carefully scripted "sorry, bro, they made me say it, but I don't mean it" speeches.
Are we the voters really willing to allow "Active Shooter" and "Mass Shootings" to become our "new normal"? I can protest and write my representatives in Congress, but that has no effect when the NRA holds so much power over our elected representatives, so that no politician of either party is willing to oppose them.
With a 24 hour Faux News (propaganda) channel directing the MAGA crowd, and evangelicals who will vote for a man who defies everything they claim to espouse, in order to stack the Supreme Court with "conservatives" who may overturn Roe vs. Wade, I feel less than hopeful.
25
There seems to be a reticence to view the rise of these patriarchal fantasy cults through a gendered lens. These misbegotten angry young murderers are socialized to be extreme misogynists. The preliminary reports out of Dayton showing the killer to have serious issues with women have been delinked from the clear and familiar white supremacy motives of the El Paso coward. The urge to fight the last war over by noting the clear parallels between Isis and white nationalists is attractive, but to my mind the larger field of focus should be aimed at young disempowered (and mostly white) males who see themselves being “replaced” in 21st century society.
They aren’t completely wrong about being left out. The world is changing and many people will be left behind by new technologies. The cultural changes associated with the economic, racial and gender changes are upon us and the Trumpian response is as well. That it is ineffectual and ultimately futile and damaging is almost beside the point. Shuttering the breeding grounds of hate is a good first step but as we have seen with our failure to combat drug abuse, one technic (interdiction) alone is a futile methodology. It will take a new mindset against our overconsumption and spiritual malaise to avoid the rise of hate and blame mongering.
13
@Southern
That is why we must have a government employment program to use profits from leveraged markets to directly employ people in infrastructure and science. The problem is republicans continue to spread the socialist propaganda blocking our ability to assist these people. And the very shooters typically hate socialism.
What a twisted mess.
6
I just read the article. I afford to be perplex and mainly reluctant to do a such comparison, to explain some trends in the today'sl world.
I think it is certainly much compliqueed than we could think it.
The phenomenon is certainly more amplified in the Muslim world than it could be in the western world. Al Qaida or Isis are terrorist organisms of mass. There is no equivalent in the domestic terrorism in USA, which is often isolated acts.
On this point, maybe it would be judicious to have a accounting on the number of massacres commited at the name of muslim faith and the number of massacre commited at the name of white supremacy. We ought not certainly to be on the same scale.
I don't want to clear the massacre of El Paso.
On the other hand, it is certainly both sides nihilism.
But one thing is sure, it is Internet and the proliferation of weapons have certainly played, during these last twenty years, a role of catalyser wherever for fomenting this kind of massacre.
12
Thank you for finally seeing this connection. It is a shame that it has taken all this violence (both at home and abroad) to see that religious/ ethnic radicalization is interrelated all around the world. Every time one of these events happens the fabric of civility is frayed and the demagogues who feed on these tragedies seem a little more reasonable. This is a sickness spreading around the world, not just Muslim or Christian or “white” countries.
To see how truly ugly it is all you have to do is look at the attempts at deflection and blame shifting by “offended” American whites. I’m white. If truth hurts, good.
29
@Oak Bryan
I am white, too, and i agree with you.
Yes, yes, yes. This is important. I know this may be obvious to some of us, but its a message that needs to be spread so that hopefully white nationalist can build up some sort of self awareness.
I'm pessimistic that it would ever happen, but I hope that white nationalists will realize that those they hate the most - ISIS - embody the same principals as them.
It is sort of like the horseshoe theory of politics - where both extremes end up having a lot in common.
11
This is pretty well known already. Tim McVeigh was a big fan of Ramzi Yousef. They shared a commitment of hatred for the U.S. government due to it's history of slaughter. These types of people are often not only not crazy but, in fact, hyper rational. They know that they had to do something completely insane to get people's attention. It worked.
12
@Once From Rome
It is not an absurd headline when you consider that both movements include lonely, angry, or spiritually conflicted individuals who are searching for meaning and a sense of purpose, and find it in a community that tells them what they want to hear. When this community’s message also makes them feel superior and justified in their actions, that reinforces their loyalty to the so-called “cause”. These communities are easy to find and expand due to their presence on the internet and social media.
Unfortunately both movements promote hatred and violence under a guise of so-called “self defense” (again, unfortunately, a very effective tool).
When you remove “religion” from the discussion (used here loosely since the “religion” employed is a distortion of each faith), and the modus operandi of each movement is laid bare, the parallels really are quite striking.
39
@Why Me Don't exclude religion- major thread in white nationalism (although some are atheistic) is Christianity - take a look at the "Christian Identity" movement which conflated Christianity with white supremacy.
1
Back in 2016, nearly half the voters chose chaos over order, in part as a response to having felt ignored by either party of the government. Today, we reap the results of those disgruntled Americans, who, incidentally, are unfazed by what the rest of us are witnessing. We are not experiencing a viral outbreak of disease which is killing people. We are witnessing disgruntled citizens, egged on by the President, to commit acts of terror, and supported by a cynical Senate, whose raison d'etre is to protect the economic interests of the very few.
We have only ourselves to blame, as a community, as a Country.
Only WE can make the situation better. The deviousness of the Republican Party and ineffectual strategies of the Democrats have led us to this reckoning. 2020 is our next call to make the appropriate corrections. Blaming the other side won't change a thing. Taking the government back from Trump might.
50
@KB OK, let's start with specific steps: how can this be done? Even Trump can't make the "disgruntled" voters feel warm and fuzzy - he just stokes their frustration and fear and directs their anger toward targets who are less able to fight back. How would you get those people to vote for anyone whom the NRA says will take their guns away?
1
Yes because the violence will stop just as soon as Trump loses in 2020, because you know, there were no mass shootings before Trump. They're all his fault.
Easy disingenuous politicized deflection?
4
@CJ If you don't recognize Trump's responsibility in all the violence and general chaos, you are indeed in a state of denial. But I learned a ways back, never argue with a Trumpite. Rationality is not their strong suit.
Experts also just started to notice water is wet and sand is grainy.
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I would give you two thumbs up, but that isn’t allowed. They state the obvious and then pat themselves on the back for their deep philosophical analysis.
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@Dr. Girl And yet so many commentators here are vehemently denying the obvious - that we have a right wing, white nationalist domestic terrorist problem and that in methodology it closely resembles Islamic extremist terrorism. It seems it really isn't so "obvious" is it?
Spot on analysis. We are still feeling the results of the chaos we released when we invaded Iraq, which did not send the 9/11 hijackers. Like Trump's tweets, it was an excellent diversionary tactic. But the long-term results have been horrific for us at home. American hegemony or American hubris? Either way we sure are exceptional.
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Let’s keep it simple. There are too many guns available in the US. We still sell assault weapons.
Secondly, there can be provisions in our laws that subtract rights of intransigent trouble makers. Extra-ordinary problems always require extra-ordinary responses. Since the troublemakers are depriving the general population of their rights such as public safety, the the government needs to respond in kind. Quickly; effectively; harshly.
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@NOTATE REDMOND
Agree. Drawing parallels between domestic terrorists and Islamic extremists is an intellectual exercise at best.
Our domestic terrorists weren't raised in the equivalent of an Islamic State. They were not inculcated with violent beliefs by a society, 100% of whom share those same beliefs.
In fact, our domestic terrorists share a few characteristics. They were all involved in some kind of childhood or domestic abuse in early years. They have had mental health issues. They have studied prior mass shootings (on the internet one presumes) and they have legal access to guns.
Whether this is the profile of an Islamic terrorist is irrelevant. This is the profile we must address. The FBI needs to step up its game. We can do our part by holding the FBI accountable.
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@AACNY
It would be nice if we had a health care system and less guns. A well regulated militia isn’t handing 21 year olds machine guns.
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@AACNY This is not true:
"They were not inculcated with violent beliefs by a society, 100% of whom share those same beliefs. "
There is a mountain of polling and survey data that show that a large majority of people in Islamic countries do not believe in terrorism and do not believe that terrorist violence is justifiable.
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I am definitely not an expert in this area, but I guess I am not surprised that we have experts these days who have opinions in these areas. Experts are everywhere it seems; so, why not on this topic as well. It does seem to me, however, that there is one very significant difference between white terrorism (or white supremacy) in America and the rise of the Islamic State, and that is that there is no centralized leadership or structure to the former, and there appears to have been such with the latter. I see a very great difference between one off situations and institutionalized action.
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@jpduffy3 But, in fact, there have only been very few genuine 'leaders' of jihadism. The rise of Islamic terrorism only needed a few loud voices and texts - just as is occurring with white nationalism. In both cases, the rest is done by individuals who cluster together online and sometimes in meat space to encourage one another and feed the fury.
Also: of course there are experts in terrorism.
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@jpduffy3 Not true actually - most perpetrators of Islamic extremist violence are not members of any cohesive group and are not followers of any particular leader - the parallels are much greater than you are willing to admit.
The field of terrorism studies is driven by the desire to make comparisons like this to substantiate that there is such a thing as a global terrorism with identifiable patterns and structures shared across all terrorist groups. But to what end? Terrorism studies is fundamentally reactionary, as well, pointing out these alleged similarities and raising fear of an alleged global threat while offering only the most draconian solutions. The Internet is seen as a site of contagion infecting somehow originally naive and innocent men, but there is no proof that ideas are contagious in the way presented here.
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@Ann NO proof? How about backing up your claims?
From Stephen Miller to Victor Orbán, they’ve all read Camp of the Saints. It was almost sci-fi when I read it in ‘74. Today, it’s their playbook.
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@Mike Pod
The Camp of the Saints is a racist French novel that reflects France’s fears. This racist novel savagely maligns non-Europeans to mask France’s fears that it will be treated as brutally as France treated the enslaved and the colonized on whose backs France built and continues to build its wealth.
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"The Camps of the Saints" a bizarre French novel?
The author of this article should live in France for one year or two to understand how this novel is not so "bizarre", as Islamic extremism has shaped minds of a significant proportion of the French youth. It is absolutely appalling.
The skin colour has nothing to do in this debate. But there is, yes, a strong Islamic lobbying that refuses any kind of we could call multiculturalism.
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@Ar "The Camp of the Saints" is, indeed, a bizarre French novel. It was not written when Islamicism was a real concern for most of the actual world. Its current appeal to French youth (or others) does not alter its original character.
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I lived in France for years and met scores of French youths. There is no “significant proportion of French youth, Arab or otherwise, that has been “shaped” by Islamist extremism. Maybe one out of 100.
The mere fact of being drawn to your cultural and religious roots is no more a threat to anyone here in the US among European Christians in America than among Arab Muslims in France.
Otherwise America is in real trouble with its tens of millions of “fanatic” youth who attend church and celebrate Irish, German, Italian or English cultural heritage.
Seeing danger in every difference is just cowardly and ignorant, I’m afraid.
The danger is in handing an internet megaphone and access to weapons of war to that 1 in 100, and America is more than ripe for that danger.
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This might be one of the most absurd headlines I’ve ever seen in The NY Times. To compare a handful of clearly psychotic murderers to an entire theocratic movement that seeks to overthrow nations is the pinnacle of hyperbole. If sociologists want to start making those claims, to which radical group do we compare the homicidal perpetrators in Chicago & Baltimore where more than 800 murders occur annually?
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@Once From Rome
I can understand why you will cringe at the thought comparing jihadists with white nationalists. But actually if you look at the core terrorism of all kind have the same underlying theme. They have some ideology based on strongly held belief system.They identify some groups as their existential problem. They are blinded to any collateral damage (using a military metaphor). They have some proponents who periodically inspire and reinforce their belief in the cause. With the advent the technology of communication and social media, the spread of the ideology has become very effective, rapid and pervasive crossing the global boundaries. We are conflicted in terms of the problem of upholding freedom of expression and also curbing the spread of the ideology and recruitment of the potential participants. This is a new kind of warfare we have to deal with in these days.
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@Once From Rome. Exactly. It is a sign of just how out of touch with reality the 21st Century left has become.
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Read it again. He clearly makes that distinction. Apocalyptic nihilism is different from criminal violence. Makes perfect sense regardless of the numbers involved.
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Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
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@Taco
and failure of due process in our courtrooms where the Other suffers more and more on Trumped up charges that has only a tenuous grip on facts due to our fear, anger, hate towards the unknown Other. It's turning our court system into kangaroo courts where exculpatory evidence is withheld, "evidence" from witnesses who cannot be cross examined are put before the court, and lawyers who defend the unpopular groups suffer from character assassination based on proven lies that the judges ignore with a false equivalency, stating that both sides have to be more civil to the other, albeit one side is attacking with falsehoods, and the other side is on the defensive, demonstrating the falsehoods with evidence. The higher courts of appeal too often dismiss confronting failure of due process arguments based on alleged technicalities that do not permit them to address the primary issue raised--that of failure of due process.
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Obviously, the concept is engrained in the human psyche and has been around for millennia, in the form of the apocalyptic prophecy. It may be a biological trigger that is activated whenever there is overpopulation that threatens the survival of the tribe. A mechanism that ensures that the most selfish genes survive.
Unless we find a way to prevent the triggering of that mechanism through political means, i.e. limit world population size through contraception, all attempts at suppressing these movements may be futile.
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@Kara Ben Nemsi This is interesting. But, religious violence and hatred continued in Europe during and after the serial waves of plague that destroyed much of the population.
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The problem with promoting this type of hysteria is that it fuels racial tension and physical responses.
The actions of one extremist does not make a movement to the contrary, it demonstrates that there is a true need to reexamine how individuals in this society are afforded access to firearms of any type, and draws into question the effectiveness of law enforcement to monitor individuals like this.
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Huh? We are all more at risk of home terrorists than outside terrorists. Certainly the immigration national emergency over ms13 gangs is not even close.
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@George I'm sorry, let's keep calm and just move on. Let's just pretend like our leaders in the federal government currently have any interest in addressing the base of their political power. Let's pretend like this "demonstrates that there is a true need to reexamine how individuals in this society are afforded access to firearms of any type" like we have in the past what? 20 years? Have we reexamined everything yet? Were you done reexamining after New Town? I'm sorry George, please, take your time reexamining. I'll be over here with my thoughts and prayers.
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@George "Promoting hysteria"? On the contrary, our problem is that we have whitewashed (pun intended) right wing extremism and refused to acknowledge that it is domestic terrorism for too long. See Paul Krugman's current column in how the GOP has been complicit in this process. We are long overdue to take white nationalist extremism as the threat it is - it is a far graver threat to our society and our constitutional government than Islamic extremism.
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So what’s the solution? Do we contemplate drone strikes at middle America?
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@Brian Thomas Gun regulations at the federal level. Mandatory Background Checks, Licenses, Insurance, etc.
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The pathway to violence is well defined. It begins as individuals and/or groups "collect" grievances. Those grievances turn into collections of "injustices." At some point, some percentage of those "collectors" become convinced that violence is the only remedy for those injustices. The grievances and injustices don't have to be real, merely convincing. We have a president that daily feeds those collectors. The outcome is predictable and tragic.
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@Sumac
Am I reading about our Founding Fathers here? I'm sure the Brits and their colonist, the Tories felt the same way towards them. This country was born out of violence and has been on a violent rampage, in one form or another, pretty much ever since, whether it was the planned genocide of Native Americans or the genocide of black people, we have been at war or violent interaction with someone, somewhere, our entire existence. The relentless coups and regime change wars in Central and South America, Asia, or the Middle East; we are a country of institutionalized violence, not peace. Is it any wonder some citizens in this country act out their grievances in a violent way? The governor of Tennessee just recently honored one of this country's first white nationalist terrorist and the founder of the KKK, Nathan Bedford Forrest. We still allow the original white nationalist terrorist organization, The Confederacy, to be legitimized and fly their battle flag on top of our state capitols. And people wonder why we still have white nationalist terrorists today?
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@Sumac so anyone with grievances follows the path to violence? Will the Black Lives Matter movement lead to terrorism? Did the civil rights movement? Fringe groups advocating violence may form, that is where law enforcement steps in. From the Whiskey Rebellion to stopping the Klan, it must be the rule of law and civil society which prevails and shall because of the rock-solid devotion to democracy, liberty, and justice for all that makes this country great.
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But the difference is that the group collecting grievances are ones more likely to become violent, that is, young males, especially if also feeling sexually frustrated.
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