This is about one company in France and the terrible damage it did to workers who desperately needed their jobs. But what about the numerous companies in the United States that lay off older workers for no reason at all.
American workers over age 50 know that they are not only expendable but that their company probably wants them gone. They can and will be replaced by younger temporary contract employees who don’t cost as much and are willing to give in to the gig economy because they don’t have families.
Try being unemployed at 50 or older. You might have all the talent and experience in the world and still not be able to get another job. Nobody knows how many of these victims of corporate greed have become ill, committed suicide, been divorced or lost their families. Once upon a time unions protected us. Now we have little protection even when there are laws that should help. When was the last time you saw a company prosecuted for laying off its older workers?
20
Shut the company down, default on the loans and fire everyone. Simple solution. Standard economic practice. No need for stupid ideas that just stain your hands.
If 130k people can't find job, forever stuck as unemployed and kill themselves at home then it wouldn't be on the management. You just failed at saving the failing company, not at trying to save it by driving your employees to suicide.
A much better solution.
4
These people were ground between the tectonic plates of globalization and earlier (happier?) but more sedate times. Many of these employees were used to being recognized by communities as skilled technicians in the field. All of a sudden they were redundant, outclassed, in front of a computer screen and brutalized by managers who themselves were held to unattainable goals. But the situation did have to evolve. It still does. That is why about 25% of people voted for Macron in the first round of the presidential election. It's not going smoothly but it has to evolve.
This crisis at French Telecom was instrumentalized by the Extreme Left and it's a good thing that there is a trial. But much of the debate at the time focused on the fact that with 35 sad, lonely deaths (although some theatralized) out of 150 000 employees (26 per 100 000), that is the suicide rate of people aged 45-54 in France (2.6 p. 100 000) and lower than among cops, MDs or farmers. I am not being heartless, just resituating the arguments and why things are perhaps not completely straightforward.
https://solidarites-sante.gouv.fr/prevention-en-sante/sante-mentale-et-psychiatrie/article/etat-des-lieux-du-suicide-en-france
4
If the government privatized a company in a declining field while banning layoffs, plainly it's the politicians who should be on trial. The story should have interviewed the politicians who made those decisions and asked them if they feel the wrong people are in the dock.
8
Another example of something good and humane being turned upside down. By trying to protect workers from management abuse and caprice a more unhealthy & pernicious environment resulted. 35 suicides is horrible, but how many Americans kill themselves as the result of losing a cherished and self-worth-affirming place in society. The current form of capitalism in the West is raw, unforgiving , inhumane and helps generate the crime and craziness we read about daily in the NYT. I believe that the form of socialism practiced in Sweden & Norway is the best possible "ism" and results in a happier, saner public. May see this in the distant future in the US as the public becomes better educated . We can hope.
12
I'm normally all for criticism of corporate empire, but either the Times did not find the more egregious allegations of "harassment" here or these workers overreacted. You killed yourself because they brought you indoors from an outdoor job? Or because they switched your office? Sorry but that's a bit ridiculous. This line reads like a line from the Onion: "Her father, Rémy, set himself on fire in 2011 in front of a France Télécom office near Bordeaux, in despair over successive marginal reassignments." Marginal!?! Overall the article seems to me to say that the French workers couldn't handle corporate change and started offing themselves. There are many things corporate executives should go to jail for - but this article doesn't mention any.
12
Americans don't (or rarely) have jobs for life, but many companies don't like to fire people because they don't want their unemployment insurance rates to go up, and I've witnessed employers bully and treat employees terribly for the sole purpose of making their working hours such a living hell that they'll quit. It should be illegal and should be considered harassment.
16
1. Is this data being misrepresented?
After all, what is the normal rate of suicide (for all reasons) for a cohort of this size over the period of time in question?
2. Let's assume the data is valid. Who's to blame? France's incredibly restrictive labor laws? Or the corporations?
3
I do not see reference to this company's difficulty in just firing workers it needs to. All I read is a sentence about "France, where the labor market is stagnant and immobile by American standards". Can't you report the difficulties of French companies in laying off or firing workers, instead of assuming readers appreciate them?
2
I worked in Telecom handling internal clients being the only person who was trained on the job and lasted until I was ready to retire. I knew I had to succeed and worked towards that goal working some weekends and staying after hours with no overtime and I made sure that I maintained a good client relationship.. I survived every layoff and merger. It is a changing Telecom world but according to one of my former clients the person who succeeded me still has their job. I was fortunate.
2
That figure shocks.
What it means to me:
France is not paradise, and their problems
are nauseating not unlike everybody's.
Pressure by way of capitalism necessity/efficiency is often soul-killing.
"C'est la morte" is a foreigner's
cynicism a la offensive imprecision,
though the French get me, maybe.
3
But many socialist Americans look at these European countries as role models. Maybe it's time to eat some humble pie. The European model is no good.
5
@Gabe
Europeans eat humble pie every day. The European model is not perfect but it is far from not good. If you try to think of the entire population instead of just yourself, that is.
2
Did these company men never hear of buyouts, of job placement services they could have offered their employees rather than harassment? There are humane ways to cut employment rolls even in a relatively closed society.
1
@Barbara
I think the managers were out of their depth, at a time when all of a sudden it was OK to brutalize people in the workplace. It came later to France than the UK or US (see Glengarry Glenn Ross, 1992)
2
What is on trial here is the French social system. This is exactly what happens when a government tries to protect jobs instead of people.
Most unfortunately a lifetime employment is exactly these 35 workers got, and there is little differentiation between working for the French government or the private sector. Once you are employed the only way out is if you resign.
The service level suffers because employers know their actions and in-actions carry no consequence. I prefer root canal to dealing with i.e the French banking system.
Yes the french worker is aware that finding a new job is very difficult, but it is exactly because of these laws that no-one wants to hire - employees are perpetual liabilities.
Trying to get someone to do a one-time house cleaning or yard work and they will not even talk to you unless you pay their social charges of 40% on top of their 15 Euro/hour.
The Yellow Vests have themselves to thank for the misery of the French employees. The French workforce is highly educated, well trained AND willing to work, but the trade unions are the stick in the wheel.
4
So very similar to my own situation in the US Federal government...and sadly already familiar from our daily France2 20 Heures program. The creation and maintenance of a hostile work environment is not only inimical to advancement, but to employment, and used as a passive/aggressive means to can someone who may be otherwise "untouchable" as we are. To the point where the afflicted worker chooses to leave, in some cases by this irrevocable means. Americans who work all have recourse to the EEOC and may file against their employers, often as a prelude to serious litigation. I suggest that one who is so afflicted by management's intransigence do so without demur.
4
Is it normal French policy for the state to dump unprofitable businesses into the private sector? Were the owners expected to become profitable sans cost cutting measures?
If the only way out of a bad job, barring bankruptcy, is suicide, something is wrong. There's obviously a systematic failure in the economic structure. The blame extends far beyond a few unscrupulous businessmen.
4
I can’t say what happened from the inside but I know what it is like to be a customer on the outside looking in. Just ask any one providing customer service in Europe to have a supervisor present and you will see very quickly. They are all “colleagues” with no direct supervision. If a representative has a problem then they ask a colleague but not a supervisor and they have no ability to make decisions on-the-spot to ensure customer satisfaction. There really is no customer service as far as I can see into these providers...all I see is robots.
1
This is truly awful and embarrassing writing from the Times. "How far can a company go to streamline, shed debt and make money?" Is that the most relevant question you can ask? How about "Why are sociopathic monsters favoured for executive positions, where they inevitably show utter contempt and disregard for human life?" Or "why is it acceptable for powerful men to torment the underprivileged?"
On the flipside, "France’s workers have watch the proceedings with special glee." Besides the obvious grammar error, are you serious? Characterizing workers as watching this with glee? What about horror as they learn of their colleagues taking their lives (not "committing" anything) out of desperation? Why not portray the executives as licking their lips with glee and anticipation? After all, Didier Lombard said he would reach the quota of layoffs “one way or another, by the window or by the door.”
13
"Despairing employees who hanged themselves, immolated themselves, or threw themselves out of windows, under trains and off bridges and highway overpasses".
But our profit margins, waah!
2
In places like India to push someone to suicide is a serious crime with hefty punishment.
3
I disagree that India is any kind of a model here. What about the notorious suicides of farmers in India? These are a national scandal, in large part because so little is done to punish the monsters that drive the farmers to kill themselves.
1
One lesson here is that if you make it essentially impossible to fire unneeded employees, it leads to all sorts of problems. Companies need the flexibility to downsize when business declines.
American railroad unions forced the railroads to keep firemen on locomotives years after they switched from coal to diesel. Auto worker unions forced companies to keep unneeded workers in rooms watching TV and playing cards rather than downsizing. Stupid.
2
Gee, much of this reads like what American companies do to their employees on a daily basis. American companies do worse when they want to get rid of an employee. Then they give the employee multiple warnings for idiotic infractions, assign little or no or meaningless work, ignore the person, and repeat the cycle.
In America one loses one's rights as soon one crosses the threshold to work. In some cases the employer can intrude into one's private life. Witness the almost universal practice of drug testing before hiring even in positions that are not critical. Try to organize a union, get information about colleagues salaries, file any sort of harassment claim, or take an extended sick or personal leave. Anyone doing so will be lucky to have the job in six months.
If there is a human need to work or to feel valued companies the world over are failing their employees. How many people commit suicide openly or indirectly because they can't find jobs, are mistreated on the job, are ostracized by their communities at work or outside of work, or are made to feel completely useless because of their age? Answer: more than most of us realize.
I feel the families of these 35 employees. However, this trial is more than most American employees and their families would ever get. We're told to shut up and be glad we have a job.
7/10/2019 11:15am
82
@hen3ry Actually, in the US, the excess workers would just be laid off -- there would be no need for harassment to get people to quit. Layoffs sound bad, but in the long run it seems they would have been preferable. This "burnout" phenomenon results from people being unable to switch jobs later in their careers--something I didn't know was a problem in France until now.
3
@Anna Actually, layoffs involve the company paying unemployment. Most companies would prefer to terminate an employee and thereby try to sidestep paying unemployment unless the employee appeals the decision for the employer to not pay unemployment.
8
@Anna
There seems to be a lot you don't know. In theory, there's no reason for an employer in a laissez-faire economy to harass workers, so in theory, you are right. Unfortunately, reality is not such a great fit for theory, and in fact American employers' harassment of workers is at least as bad as in France, and worse than in most other rich countries.
I'm guessing the problem is not that you don't read the news, but rather that you don't retain anything that doesn't fit your theory. You should maybe work on that.
2
It is hard to tell by the story but it looks like it is an equal opportunity economic genocide regardless of age.
We have it here in corporate America. It is called age discrimination.
It is institutionalized, accepted, promoted, universal and ugly.
11
Evil people doing evil actions to others who then are so distraught that they kill themselves: what is this world coming to when money means so much more than humanity and kindness?
5
i would hope so!
that’s a lot of people from one company.
something was going terribly wrong.
so tragic. greed, the ultimate killer.
3
These ruthless telecom bosses confirm Karl Marx's argument.
2
The CEO of a food website where I worked tried this on me. When the company was bought, I informed the new owners about this man and his constant harassment. They investigated and it turned out out he had been mistreating others as well. The new owners canned him ASAP. This is how this kind of thing should work.
2
"So the [France Télécom] executives resolved to make life so unbearable that the workers would leave, prosecutors say. Instead, at least 35 employees — workers’ advocates say nearly double that number — committed suicide, feeling trapped, betrayed and despairing of ever finding new work in France’s immobile labor market."
35? 70?
If I can 'say' this 'humorlessly' … I've said more than once, to this friend or that, "I'm gonna kill myself if I can't find a better job" -- but... Seriously?
2
Snarky, but true. The American culture is different. If bosses acted so maliciously toward their American workers, there would not be 30 dead employees. There would have been 30 dead bosses.
3
Most of the reader comments about the state of labour in France circa the time of this story, or even today, are woefully ignorant. You can’t compare it to any other country or any other time. It was and is unique to France.
American capitalists bundled production off to China and displaced American workers. Not so easy to do in France. Good? Bad? You tell me.
2
Is this a model for downsizing the Trump Administration, Cabinet and White House staff?
Donald Trump's family, friends and staff keep.whining and wimpering about ' Presidential harassment '.
2
France:
You don’t want to “modernize” your economy.
It gave the US a Heroin Epidemic and Donald Trump.
1
A year in prison plus a fine? Ten years would be too short a sentence for them.
2
The government and the unions are equally responsible. They are all trapped in an antiquated system.
I hope Bernie Sanders of Elizabeth Warren are taking note, that socialism has a downside and general societal entitlements do not always produce the society that they think it will. Someone has to produce and making it hard to fire employees creates a stagnant economy. There needs to be compromise and middle ground.
3
When are ardent capitalists going to acknowledge that human beings need well-paid work in order to survive in this world? There are no more frontiers, nowhere to go that isn't bounded and ruled by someone else, and therefore nowhere to go to be "free" of our societal structure. And we have allowed our society to be structured around the possession of money. Society certainly does not care about the health, sanity, and well-being of its members -- only about their wealth or lack of it. So if you want to continue living in this type of society, then you will have to acknowledge that everyone must be adequately employed within the system. If you make it impossible to escape the system, then you have to force the system to provide living-wage jobs. Either that, or you learn how to kill large numbers of supposedly superfluous people. It's no surprise that capitalists take the easy way out and prefer to kill rather than share.
7
The article fails to mention that the suicide rate at France Telecom was actually LOWER than that of the overall, same age range, French population...
And that unions preyed on any suicide , regardless of circumstances to make it work-related.
1
@Maninparis
I agree with the data, and that things are not so straightforward.
A note form an epidemiologist, however: employed people are generally not representative of the general population. They are healthier, happier and aside from certain professions (police, MD, farmers...) tend to kill themselves less.
Time to see that "creating business-friendly" is a euphemism for "open season on mature-benefits workers".
After France forced company to go private, it was $50 billion in debt in 2 years! The little people still HAD ZERO TO DO WITH HOW company got there and squandered its competitive birth, but they were the only ones getting chopped.
What price did any executives pay for company's failures? There are a lot of excuses about competitive pressures, but nothing happens overnight. Executives and boards were/are responsible, but they pay no price (past, present, or future), not even a paper trail of their rewards for cutting little people's throats.
This shocking reality was devastatingly portrayed in Stephane Brize's film "The Measure of a Man"- the French title is more to the point- 'La Loi du Marche' (The Law of the Market). Please watch as it alerts you to the grim, inhumane side of our contemporary society. May all their souls rest in peace.
1
Capitalism is the enslavement of people. There is no other way to look at it. It will always create winners and losers and tragedy. It goes unquestioned and is normalized around the world. It creates violence and war and the idea of infinite growth as a real possibility without any adverse consequences. Capitalism must end so we are all on the same playing field. We only respect the dollar, not life.
4
@RCJCHC
Sweden is a capitalist country. Just with safety nets and not free-for-all capitalist.
Ask the ex-Soviets, anyone in the Balkans or the surviving Cambodians if the usually proposed alternative (Socialism) was not enslavement.
2
In a world where business leaders hold dear the principles of Ayn Rand, telling people to eat cake is going to be more and more hazardous.
2
Ever get the feeling that compassionate capitalism is an oxymoron? Another oxymoron in today's hard-driving corporate world is business ethics--try teaching business ethics to a class of business majors, as a friend of mine did. She had stories to tell about the character and caliber of the future business leaders of America.
We in the West have gone through decades of the glorification of free-market capitalism, accompanied by all kinds of ridiculous made up phony economic principles and contrived theories, such as trickle-down economics, deregulation, and Milton Friedman's cold-hearted advice to focus on pleasing investors as a principal goal of capitalism rather than worrying about customers and employees.
While Adam Smith is often credited with heralding capitalism as a way to build a nation's wealth in his book "The Wealth of Nations" (1776), the current touters of free-market capitalism simply omit Smith's admonition that the system works as long as the key players behave responsibly. See what happens when they don't?
In simplest terms, it is basically the value orientation of money over people in the current business model.
Tell me why ÇEOs and top executives and managers are often chosen for their ruthless bottom-line approach to running corporations, which relies on a zero-sum game of squashing the competition (by any means necessary) and cutting labor costs to please investors and overpay executives. What could possibly go wrong? Read the article again
6
@PB
"Tell me why ÇEOs and top executives and managers are often chosen for their ruthless bottom-line approach to running corporations"
Because baby-boomers and GenX want an unrealistic return on their investments so they can enjoy retirement, no matter what the social cost.
I'm sorry that these people have been treated so horribly. The executives that harassed these employees so mercilessly deserve to be in jail.
But when are we, as Americans, going to stand together and fight collectively for our employees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but France has guaranteed maternity and paternity leave, up to 3 year parental child-rearing leave, 5 weeks vacation per year, a minimum weekly rest period, and so so much more. Americans work more hours, for less money, less time off, less benefits, and the knowledge that many of us will never be able to retire.
It's amazing to me that Americans haven't already been setting themselves on fire in front of their offices.
6
This sort of systemic psychological abuse and harrassment is de rigeur in corporations in the US. The pervasive expectation here in the US is that to be "professional," is to be able to just let it all roll off your back. If you can't handle it, you aren't "professional." Silicon Valley is rife with this--gross abuse of workers, those here on HB1 visas, too scared to lose their job by saying anything. But Silicon Valley aside, this behavior defines how US corporate culture operates every day, all the time. Can't even imagine these overpaid corporate American managers, directors, and C levels being taken to task. US corporate culture is the sociopath's paradise.
4
This articles disgusts me and yet it is all too familiar from practices in the US workplace. Today's workplace in the US is in a state of emergency.
1
The right to work states are no good and abuse workers more and get away with it. I know a nurse at Beebe Hospital in Lewes ,De, On the job for 8 years and got a back injury from the job. The hospital denied it. She had surgery elsewhere and was given no workmen’s comp just ordered to be back to work by a nearby date while still in pain. They let her go with no money coming in and with an injured body. This is the Republican way for out of touch business so give me unions any day.
3
At the risk of being reductively neo-Marxist, the suicides seem like an inevitable result of "modernizing" an economy through adopting capitalist, neoliberal logic. Whatever guarantees and cultural expectations people have in the workplace whither in the face of the bald profit motive. France, as far as I know, doesn't have as potent mass opiates as the US, eg valorization of work for its own sake, gospel of wealth, etc. yet, which has led to larger scale public resistance like the Yellow Vest movement.
But, at the same time, if these changes are continuously imposed from the top down, French culture may find itself developing these types of rationalizations. After all, these ideologies aren't bogeymen, they seemingly offer space for self-determination, chances at material wealth, and rich and powerful heroes to emulate.
1
Most American corporations do a better job at papering over the impacts of layoffs or forcing employees to quit via relocations, etc. However, the effect is the same, in terms of impact upon one's sense of value and dignity.
The real difference in America is that we expect this sort of thing to happen, and take it as normal. Some businesses do care about their employees, in real, material ways. However, the more public and large the firm is, the more employees are simply units of production, to be optimized for the bottom line.
It's not countries, like China, which have hollowed out the employment picture for Americans; it's the assorted company leadership who have no loyalty to anyone or any country, except to shareholders and their compensation packages. And, they know which politicians to pay off - er, support. Right, Donald?
Executives will get their gold; the rest get to rummage for the next position that will, maybe, pay as much, with no pension, little health care or flexibility. Older unemployed; well, good luck. Better you should die, and reduce the surplus population...
1
Among the reasons executives are paid more and required to have higher qualifications of education and experience, is because these are leadership positions. A leader shoulders risk and takes responsibility for his people. That modern executives are excused, by their own culture, from understanding what leadership is and from being leaders, is the reason that instead we have a teaching and learning environment that promulgates anti-worker campaigns. It happens in America, too.
4
Sorry, but dog eat dog is here to stay. No one understands fairness, goodwill and unity. No one understands global economies, trade or deficit spending (consequence). Corporate teamwork is just another word to enhance profits (squeeze). Workers are simple tools of capitalism and wealth strategy.
1
I am surprised the unions didn't demand to negotiate the treatment of employees during the privatization. Buyouts, terms of any reduction-in-force, circumstances under which employees can be reassigned, terms of reassignment, etc are all actions that could have been negotiated with management. The point of having an employees' union is to prevent management from carrying out a reign of terror against the workers.
3
Ironically, during my time working in France I was impressed by the France - Telecom Minitel, a proprietary screen and keyboard product that provided Internet - like information.
That was 1996, before the Internet set off a swift decline of such services.
1
note that France is the most balanced/modern country (public/private investment, skills/R&D, entrepreneuriat, housing, fertility, middle class/poverty/inequalities/cost of living, health/healthcare, environment, defense, culture/heritage, etc...).
it's the US (like many others) that have to modernize the economy (huge poverty rates/inequalities, highest percentage of low wage earners among developed nations, very bad health/lowest life expectancy among developed countries, very expensive/inefficient healthcare, very expensive/average education, huge pollution, etc...).
suicide rate has been declining in France for several decades and has been on the rise in the US since 2000 (OECD ; CDC).
see also University of Southern California study on overdose deaths dated 02/2019 : US has by far the highest rate among wealthy nations (relatively low rate for France).
France's turn to help ?
3
@François You may be surprised that people here can get fired and don’t have a job for life. Of course, we also work more than a 35 hour week.
1
I'll suppose what you are claiming is true,
though the yellow vest demonstrating
puzzles me.
Marie La Pen isn't joyous--why?
France confuses me almost as much
as everybody.
Depression is universal, I'll suppose until a
Margaret Mead wannabe tells me better.
At one point in my mid career, I was Director of a State Consumer Protection office whose job was to be a watchdog over utilities, insurance companies, and telecommunications firms regulated by the State. The office was created and supported by one Administration, but the winds changed with a new Administration of a different party. The relevant regulated companies used their vast political influence to neutralize my office and the work it did.
What followed was a three year battle between me and the administration, as they cut my resources and sought to interfere with how we did our job. They were trying to force me to quit the position, so they could fill it with a lackey who would be their puppet.
It became a battle of wills. They could not fire me outright, as our work was often in the media and I had a good personal reputation. I finally set the personal goal of keeping the Office functional until the end of that administration so that the next administration could decide what to do with it. My experience resulted in that office becoming an independent agency, the Director appointed to a term, who did not serve at the pleasure of the Governor.
The stress during that three year battle period was overwhelming and the battles became highly personal. It affected my overall health for years afterward. I never considered suicide, but I did wind up suffering a form of PTSD. If I had it to do over again, I would have bailed out early.
10
Remind me of old At&T before it was
acquired by Southern Bell and adopted
the name. Old At&T also got flat footed
and laid off thousands of employees
in failed attempt to be profitable. It
is top management failure to not
recognize the changing market
and adopt with new products, good
customer service and streamlined
processes to improve efficiency.
Sadly the employees pay the price
for the failure of management. CEO
of old At&T laid off 20,000 employees
and asked the board for a raise. It is
pinnacle of brazenness and insensitivity.
Capitalism has to be rethought.
9
France Télécom makes about $2 billion annually in PROFIT (net income).
While France's work rules are in fact overly restrictive with its work for life rules, there's no reason for a company to indulge is employee-assisted-suicide schemes, which it did.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ORAN/orange/net-income
Get your act together, France.
8
Capitalism at its best promotes effort from employees and owners. Greed turns it into its worst form.
So in the past we have had organized labor to try and combat this inherent problem with capitalism.
Either Side can go too far. Then, when out of balance, The least fit are the most hurt.
I don’t think there is a simple solution because it’s so difficult to balance both sides.
Living under the gun of capitalist competition or embracing mediocrity by guaranteeing job security are not good answers.
The idea that the market is so great because it has no emotion is countered by the idea that the market is so awful because it has no humanity.
There have been successful employers who have been kind to their employees even in capitalistic systems. So that proves that it is
possible.
My suggestion is to require business schools to insist upon more classes in the humanities. For example, one Shakespeare class May Illuminate the human condition to the uninitiated. Other than that I don’t know how to make people care for each other.
12
I took a screenshot of your succint commentary of the upside and downside of capitalism--excellent--so when discussing with friends I can explain my understanding of it well.
1
Management failed to adjust to the new marketplace and the company tanked. Given managements lack of a viable strategy layoffs of good employees would just delay eventual bankruptcy. Instead why not try firing management and turning the company over to the workers and see what they can do with it? Nothing to lose, if it doesn’t work out there is still bankruptcy. Problem with ‘Capitalism’ is it almost always props up grossly incompetent management at the expense of labor even when it makes no economic sense to do so.
9
In France the customer is always wrong. Thst is their problem...
6
After traveling in France and The Netherlands I would have to agree. The Dutch make no exceptions to their silly strict rules nor do companies empower their employees with decision-making authority to satisfy their customer’s needs. I began to think it’s probably a cultural problem or just me, the Ugly American.
The two exceptions was in Spain...I found that Hertz Car Rental would honor their obligations under my American Express agreement but maybe they are trained to kindly help travelers. The other was in England.
1
In France, the vast majority of prison sentences are issued "avec sursis", i.e., are suspended. Don't expect these characters to spend a day in jail, let alone 16 months.
4
“People who had worked outside their whole career were suddenly put in front of a computer,” said Frédérique Guillon, a worker advocate who testified at the trial, in an interview.
The sudden change from natural light to all blue light speaks to mitochondrial damage at the cellular level.
I've seen this first hand with a relative who worked outside his whole life - extremely health - then changed careers to an indoor desk job. Was immediately followed by panic attacks, depression and anxiety.
People need to wake up and deal with what the tech revolution (blue light, loss of nature/sun) means for your health. I don't believe the media, the medical community or government is seeing this for what it really is.
5
France Telecom is a perfect example of corporate solidarity and bureaucratic power. "A grim universe of underemployment, marginalization, miscasting and systematic harassment was established at the huge company, according to testimony at the trial." Members of the power elite executives of this telephone company knew that they were $50 billion dollars in debt. “The company was going under and [their hard working employees] didn’t even know it." They just wanted to shield themselves from public scrutiny. They had the power to do the right thing in seeking help, but they refused to do it...A true unorganized anarchy. “All they care about is money.” The '22,000 workers out of 130,000' kept the company standing. It is interesting to see how some corporate companies are in their cages - resulting in Gold Displacement. France Telecom focused on their internal needs from "the intense pressure of a competitive and changing marketplace to the extent the operational goals are forgotten." Alternatively, employment is a key issue in economic stability, and a social determinant of health. When employees are pushed to the brink of extinction, then this becomes a public health issue. "If their convicted, the ex-executives face a year in jail and a $16,800 fine." How can you push someone so far towards "[hanging], [immolating] or [throwing] themselves out of windows, under trains and off bridges and highway overpasses?" Is that really social justice or corporate shielding?
1
How do you get rich in a situation where the enterprise operates close to the breakeven point?
1
Successful companies run lean where if demand increases staff work over time. A base work force is what is needed. If you need to cut costs reduce everyones pay. You may have a smaller slice of the pie but everyone eats. You do this until you turn it around and natural attrition reduces the work force. It is more fun eating with someone vs eating a large meal by your self.
1
Apparently, France cannot grow it’s economic output enough to offer anybody opportunity to change jobs nor to make money in new ways. It’s the future for the rest of mankind living on this planet. Sustainability means people living on what is available without the ability to change their circumstances much.
We have already exceeded the planet’s ability to accommodate us without drastic changes being produced that will not allow us continue living as we have. To stop this means not relying upon so much exploitation of the natural world in order to grow economically. We don’t have good alternatives right now, but we are going to find what works, anyway.
7
Let this be a reminder that a corporation/place of work is not "family" and that no matter what campaign their HR and PR departments are on at the moment, it's all about the cold blooded profits.
I've seen people given 20+ years to their companies and then be fired by the powerpoint presentations because the new management "wanted another direction." I've worked for companies that are consistently getting awards as "the best employer" and found out very early on that they were essentially a cult - you either played the game with a poker face or you were pushed out.
Luckily I escaped these situations with just minor bruises, but I can't imagine what would that to do someone's psyche that sees their employer as someone who has their best interests at heart or who has limited employment choices.
20
I don't know about some of these anecdotes. Several connect a reassignment at work to suicide. That sounds tenuous.
3
@Malcolm MacDowell
It is a tactic used in America, too, that you, fortunately (maybe you're a manager?) must have not experienced or watched as an employee. Reassign or add extra work without extra compensation to employees, who companies/managers do not want, so they are miserable (cornered) and leave. Add in verbal harassment/bullying. So much easier (albeit unconscionable) than firing and having to provide unemployment insurance. Forced out Americans have a chance to become employed again, whereas the workers in the French telecommunication company did and do not. Hence suicide.
1
As the USA loses its edge to China’s stealing and manipulation it is just a matter of time before our technological innovations and trade secrets are used to kill our global industries and eventually, us. Does Biden care? I think not.
7
If you listen to the details, the businesses want the profits from working in China so much that they give up their secrets to do it. That may be a kind of extortion but it’s with their consent.
If the allegations are true, they should receive the maximum penalty.
1
Eerie reminder of what might happen with the 18,000 employees being separated by Deutsche Banc as it exits global equities sales and trading. And whatever happened to the 50,000 who were dropped by Citigroup in 2008?
1
It's been widely known for decades that one cannot fire a French employee. Workers in France are unionized at the national level; truly socialist with some capitalism thrown in. The Capitalism thrown in here came about because the government was so inefficient at operating the business, they privatized it.
Many who want to start a business, leave France now and have been doing so since the EU was established. Most companies are reluctant to have a corporate presence in France as one cannot really run a profitable business if their industry goes through downturns. Most do.
14
Face it labor has and always will treated as a cost to a company, listed as a liability on the accountants ledger. With the growing trends of self-services, robotics and in the future autonomous vehicles and artificial intelligence how will the average worker earn a living as labor is phased out in many industries? Millions of people are struggling now to make ends meet with millions more soon to come.
There is an abundance of prosperity circulating among the people that need it the least and not with the people that need it the most.
9
I hope these trials being about some semblance of justice and signal a kind of regulatory oversight of how corporations treat their employees, especially during hard times.
But sincerely, I find it doubtful that there will be anything but a passing and superficial outcome and effectm The trials resemble more of a very shallow and superficial attempt by governmental agencies to show the public that they are doing something.
Money and profit will almost always win out over justice and fairness. I hope I am proven wrong, but the cynicism in me says otherwise...
3
As an expat American for sixteen years in France I have been struck by the confusion the French have for whether they want to be capitalists or socialists.
They associate aggressive capitalism with Germany and America where profit is paramount over workers rights.
They are reluctant to practice customer service because they believe it represents placing themselves beneath the customer rather than an egalitarian relationship.
The French worker is stuck in one job in their youth where it is almost impossible to change jobs later on in their career.
President Macron is a strong capitalist and is strongly disliked and mistrusted by the citizens who see him as loyal to the wealthy business owners.
The treatment of France Telecom workers by management was appalling. The employees felt helpless in the face of hostile management and sank into a depression that often led to suicide.
157
@Michael Kittle Okay, but what is the point of your comment? Telecom management started harassing their employees long before Macron became President, so you can't very well pin it on him. The French fetishize symbolic ideological distinctions like 'capitalism' and 'socialism,' and treat them as if they were fundamentally distinct systems. The reality is that they are just names representing which side one is on in the battle over who gets what and how much of the surplus produced in a modern economy. Macron the "capitalist" was a longtime member of the Socialist Party after all.
Macron was elected for the purpose of reforming the constraints on the French labor market. What this story suggests is that those constraints are deeply embedded in French culture and society and so he won't succeed. It might be better if the French cognoscenti simply accept that fact and tolerate a few fractional points off their GDP in exchange for social happiness.
17
@Michael Kittle Your insights are spot on about the French ethos... your comment was shy though of addressing the main issue: that of bullying workers and its fatal aftermath
3
@Gary FS,
It isn't that benign; it is not "...a few fractional points off their GDP..." If a modern economy cannot compete in the global market it will within a generation or two cease to be a modern economy. Good luck then with one's social safety net. Germany is culturally incapable of slowing down and lending a hand so that others can keep up, much less China.
7
In corporate America, and especially in the tech industry, you also work 12 hour days with as little, or less, than a 30-hour break, as one unfortunate man in this story did. For him the transition was unbearable. But no one (who is not unionized?) in the US expects anymore to retire on a pension, to have any kind of future safety net, or to work a job that lasts a lifetime. That stress is a daily reality.
89
@Marie
It's true, we can be grateful in Europe that the capitalist project is not as far along as in the United States... however it doesn't feel like we have long! If reporting in the New York Review of Books today is true (https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/07/10/the-american-dark-money-behind-europes-far-right/) then we appear to have the worst sort of American capitalist (by which I don't mean to suggest there is a good sort) working as hard as ever to soften the ground, though. At least the US can't get away with imposing things through violence in Europe, so we don't need to worry about that just yet.
30-hour break was a major typo. I meant 30-minute!
1
If France had unions they would have been notified and then the horrific bully abuse brought out in public . Our right to work states need to be watched because the employers can do the same thing to women and abuse them at the work place and allow to remain in business. The right to work was first allowed to start up from the corrupt Republican Party . Deregulation. Franklin Roosevelt created the unions as protectors of every one at the work place. I stand by unions for every business.
68
@D.j.j.k. France has extremely strong unions compared to other countries, that is part of the reason why they can workers cannot be fired, I worked for a French company, while my co-workers appreciated the protections their union provided, they were essentially trapped in the jobs no one if fired and very hard to get hired.
18
@D.j.j.k. I don't think you understand. All employees in France are unionized; the government says so. You cannot fire an employee without either a huge severance, that the employee accepts, or without going to court (rare, and employer usually loses).
14
@D.j.j.k. In France the unions are the problem. No one should be guaranteed lifetime employment.
15
Capitalism was fair to workers once-in the 50s and 60s when unions and labor laws were strong and greed was a bad word. From the 70s on it has been willfully corrupted. It can be fixed but only if voters demand it here, and in every democracy. We The People must take our government back, take our lives back, take our planet back. The Democrats are our only hope, but only if they take the Senate as well as the White House and eventually, the Supreme Court. We're teetering on the brink; tell everyone you know to vote Democratic and that they will be to blame for what comes if they do not.
11
This is the direct result of unionization. “Employees for life” are a drag on a company’s profitability and, the truth is that businesses exist for one reason only: to generate profits for its owners/shareholders, those who risk their capital.
Unions should be outlawed.
9
@DB When you think about it, unions were more effective when they were illegal. Since NLRA and Taft-Hartley they've been part of the system and in decline. A return to the era of sabotage and wildcat strikes would teach people what it really means to "risk their capital."
@DB
How about jobs for life in a appropriate, needed job? To use the cliché, if buggy whip makers are no longer needed, train them as auto workers. If auto jobs are automated, train them as robot operators.
Sixteen months is an absurdly short sentence for these monsters but it is probably enough time for the guards and fellow inmates to give them a hefty dose of their own medicine.
3
It sounds like the days of the French Monarchy. The workers (peasants) can be abused and there is no where to turn for protection.
This is deeply tragic. The Old Fat Cat Boss Men trying to justify their immoral tactics, well, they sound pathetic and corrupt.
And a wrist slap of one year in jail and a negligable fine of not even $17,000 is not a nearly enough retribution for over 35 lives lost because of their cruel tactics.
Let the Boss Men eat cake in prison for 5 years and fine them $1,000,000 each and maybe the next corporate Boss Man will think twice before making such a terrible scheme for profit.
8
Where is evidence that God is alive and helping us navigate life. No need to go to church to hear about Jesus and his good works when he walked the earth. Son of God incarnate and divine we hear. But more importantly God (the Father), creator of all, and one and only God seems to have left us alone to struggle with lifes torments. When employers drive employees to suicide and it is hard to find kindness and compassion but so much greed and oppression, it seems God is MIA (Missing in Action). A pray that changes and we see many examples of people uniting and working for true goodness and humanity towards all to make this world a better place to live and work.
2
I was tormented by a new, younger woman after a spotless three decades in different positions at my place of employment. It was the worst thing I ever went through, I was in constant fear as I was nearing retirement but still needed a few years. She lied, purposely kept information from me and got a cadre of "mean girls" to gang up on me. Finally, a higher up came to my rescue. She is gone, I am retiring but I wouldn't relive that year again for anything. I feel so bad for these people.
378
@Maureen - Age discrimination remains a very real problem in the United States. It is also among the last 'groups' that it is OK to blatantly make fun of and dehumanize.
I read a career advise column recently that stressed the importance of appearing younger and using phrases that appeal to younger generations. Found it both weird and understandable.
But imagine swapping out 'elderly' or 'older' with any combination of race or religion. People would rightly be disgusted.
Yet we as a country continue to treat older workers as a flawed group simply because they are not young. I'm sorry for what you went through, glad you survived!
129
@Maureen Condolences. I too had this happen. Interestingly, all the girls came from the same college in Boston. And moved on together to another firm, a telecommunications firm in D.C. Many young women have learned they can undercut women with impunity and the support of men. No surprise all my offenders were conservative GOP voters and "anti abortion" based on their RC schooling.
63
@poslug. The loss of perspective by those those who discriminate against older workers is that we all become one at some point.
54
The company managers will get one year in jail and fined $168,000? That’s it?? They should get life in prison, a billion dollar fine or both. Some will leave “out the window?” Talk about premeditated harm.
in the US, company executives can lay-off thousands of employees to “restructure,” keep their million dollar salaries, and enrich stockholders. You think US corporate executives care any more about their workers than French executives? Is firing a middle age worker with little opportunity to get a comparable job any worse than actually killing them?
I was laid off in a reduction in force in 2012. I was just a number on a list of others in the same boat. The folks delivering the news didn’t care how difficult, if even possible, it would be for someone my age — over 50 — to get a comparable job, despite decades of experience and an MBA.
It’s time to seriously think about the meaning of work and appreciating that people need a livelihood to survive. Once upon a time, corporations felt some obligation to employees and customers. Those days are long gone. Why???? Increased worship of the almighty dollar, I guess. Where does it end?
104
@Naive Th e fine is only $16,800.
3
@Naive
Just to be clear: "out the window" is not to be taken litterally. In French it is meant in opposition to "out the door", meaning the "above-board" or officially-sanctioned way. "Out the window" means non-official way, not jumping out the building.
5
Quite an eye-opener for someone whose only experience with France is as a tourist. You soak up all the joie de vivre and get the impression that the French worker has a much more sane life than the US worker does. “By the door or by the window.” What a cruel reality.
9
The French people share in the blame for this tragedy. They have worker rights which are a major cause of the 20% unemployment, or whatever it is. It has been terrible for decades. The idea that you can't fire an employee for any reason, ever, is crazy. The laws are so bad, that entrepreneurs are leaving France whenever they get the chance.
16
@David Lindsay Jr. The unemployment rate in France was 8.8% in February 2019. You seem appalled that there are workers rights. I guess you would be very happy as an employer in a "right to work" state.
@David Lindsay Jr. and most companies won't move there.
2
the workers were harassed in different ways until they broke, in droves ,the people who cause this pressure should be punished, and the practice is sneaky , cruel and evil , seems the law need to be upgraded to protect the workers.
the competition did not cause this, the management did, how many of your competitors appear in court with you ?
5
Glad to see these execs on trial. Here in the U.S. they regularly get away with murder. Consider the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma (+ other pharmaceutical co's), coal companies, chemical companies (Monsanto) or the countless financial institutions and their execs who destroyed the lives of millions by stealing their homes and financial security in 2008. They all walk(ed) away rich and free leaving the wreckage in their wake. I could go on and on about the polluters and profiteers who have more of a free pass now that the GOP and Drumf are in charge.
12
This echoes the experience of a fellow teacher friend of mine (who luckily didn’t kill herself but almost had a nervous breakdown). A new principal, bedazzled by Obama’s “Race to the Top” scheme for public education,tried to force her to change positions back to something she had left (special education...she was utterly burned out). Why have our politicians sold us out, leaving lousy jobs, increasingly fragile working and middle classes, and despair/death by opioids? This trend-austerity for the masses, has brought us Brett, the Yellow Vests,Trump. We sure do need a corrective, and soon.
5
@Ellen
Correction- that was supposed to be Brexit, not Brett.
I wonder how many of those who committed suicide in France would have simply turned into work place shooters in America. The company looked to be in an untenable situation-losing customers with no way to get them back, but the bosses putting employees into untenable situations turned the situation deadly.
9
The article states that the telecom misread the market & concluded they needed to down size to survive. A perfect example of the the high paid bosses making the mistake & taking it out on the workers.
14
We need to stop calling it Human Resources as there is nothing human/humane about these entities in the way they remove long time employees. It's Corporate Resources at its finest.
18
I'm glad to see this going to trial in France, but don't think this still doesn't happen in this country.
But you'd never see it litigated like it is there. Complaints and dead bodies would be met with a shrug.
10
"A grim universe of underemployment, marginalization, miscasting and systematic harassment was established at the huge company, according to testimony at the trial."
Modernization!
4
The emotional and verbal harassment that takes place in the American Corporate world is unconscionable. The #MeToo Movement has only touched on the sexual harassment but the psychologically abusive behavior that goes unchecked and inflicted on employees is and always has been a corporate illegal activity sanctioned in the corporate environments. Our employment and layoff laws are different in the US, not to the benefit of the workers, it would be more difficult to determine the severity of damage and perhaps what suicides were instigated by workplace harassment. As a psychotherapist, a large percentage of clientele deals with a verbally and emotionally abusive workplace on a daily basis bringing them to therapy due to high degrees of anxiety, depression, loss of sleep and disruption in their daily lives with family and friends. Harassment and abuse of any kind at work is unacceptable. It would be a benefit if the US employers new they could be sued for "moral harassment." Corporate behavior might change. In fact, perhaps it should start with the US Government employees suing Trump, for his "moral harassment" as he is a perfect example of a how a Corporate Executive, now a president, practices verbal and emotional abuse on government employees, citizens and the world daily. It is moral harassment. Perhaps France might want to sue Trump also.
11
This is like a modern Greek Tragedy. However, there are two tragedies: a humanistic tragedy that the journalist portrays very well and an economic tragedy which is not discussed. France is a country that is losing its edge. It is a well educated population that is reluctant to embrace economics solutions so it can compete in the 21st century. As the French would say: c'est la vie.
37
@Rod Globalization is pushing the boundaries of work civility. Check the numbers for the last 20 years. Employees are working longer hours, making less money, having less benefits, consequently less mental health. If you are middle class worker your salary probably has gone up less than 1% in the same period. Meanwhile companies are making more money than ever. Just check how much the fortune of the richer 1% has increase in the same period time. We have already had 2 world wars driven by the greed of the same elite. Maybe the 3rd one is in its way. The fear of losing the crumbles they, the 1%, give us has paralyzed us and we don't fight back.
9
This tragedy also highlights the inherent conflict of job-for-life civil servants, and the reality of corporate culture. Were there many better ways to handle layoffs? Of course. But France, like many countries, has a bloated bureaucracy that unrealistically guarantees job security at the expense of taxpayers with no such security, and executives seemingly no other recourse to reducing gov’t employee workforces. This makes economic combat inevitable.
10
@SomethingElse. Sounds to me as if French companies, French workers, and the French government are locked in a mutual death grip. None can brake free and all are dying because of their locked in law arrangement.
7
@B. Rothman youve made the truest most balanced comment here. It's a system level problem that leads to bad behavior from individuals.
Guys, its time to overcome capitalism. Humanity is better than this. No more exploitation. We can build a system more fair and equal. Today, the richest 50 people own more than 50% of the world population. This should not be possible. Unfortunately, those who got rich in this system will fight for its maintenance. Its up to the working class to unite and save this world and humanity. It will be a hard fight. We are hit everyday with capitalist propaganda (entepreneurship and more). Nevertheless, I believe that those who do not have a choice, that have to sell themselves everyday in order to survive, will eventually organize and fight for a better world. There is no hope in capitalism.
19
A goal of 22,000 terminations, but no severance/buyout packages, no government-funded retraining programs, no HR assistance with resumes and mock interviews, no Department of Labor placement services, just a choice of window or door?
U.S. corporations in virtually every economic sector, partnering with state and federal governments, had learned years earlier a more humane approach to downsizing. France Telecom could easily have consulted with Americans on how to proceed, if their executives' sadistic arrogance hadn't precluded it.
20
@Pam - Well, US corporations have had about forty years of experience in downsizing for larger profit margins, so there's that.
12
@Pam I don't know that US corporations have been "humane." Telling an autoworker or coal miner in his/her 50s who never went to college that all they need to so is become a nurse or a coder is almost as ridiculous and cruel as offering the door or the window.
1
@Pam the cost to downsize in France is enormous and can take years of battling unions and government. My experience in the US is that most downsizings are not humane.
When I see these articles, I continue to wonder at the apparently endless patience of the average American citizens. We've been so conditioned here that taking to the streets is left (no pun intended) to the people who take the time and make the effort to do so. The behavior of certain politicians alone (and I don't mean non-corporate Democrats) should have organizers and their marches daily by now. I'm no leader, but I'd be a great member of such marches.
9
@akhenaten2 - Oh, like the Women's March against Trump? That was great for expressing anger and solidarity, got sold a lot of metaphorical papers, and ... ?
Marches are worthless under the current Administration, a waste of time and energy. It was recognized early on, and the most concentrated efforts have since gone to getting new people elected, locally and nationally.
When you have to get local "permission" to march, and are "allowed" to do so only where directed, it kind of detracts from the whole power to the people thing. The only march that would change what's happening here is the one where ten million people from both ideological sides march together on Washington - without permission, refusing to leave.
This form of 'firing' has been in play for decades in France. I witnessed it in the 1980's while working for Groupe Saint Gobain, i also witnessed an important impact not mentioned in this article.
Because French executives don't want to get caught up having too many employees - in case there's a slump - they 'solve' the problem by not hiring more employees when they need them.
This not only helps freeze employment growth, it means that France will continue to be seen as 'unresponsive' to the needs of it's clients because it will not ramp up its capacity to serve and grow.
22
@ijarvis
Many American corporations Don't have this problem, but still hire "gig" workers. We used to call the "temps", because for many people, this was, indeed, a job they wanted on a temporary basis.
Now there is often no choice. Gig workers have no rights at all: No sick days, vacation days, health care, retirement plans, etc. What a dream for employers. What a nightmare for employees seeking a real job, and future.
1
«Unfortunately for Mr. Lombard, he was recorded saying in 2007 that he would reach the quota of layoffs “one way or another, by the window or by the door.” The window is what a number of the employees chose.» May I suggest that the real unfortunates in this case were not M Lombard et consortes, but those subject to their policies, in particular those who saw no way out but to take their lives ?...
Henri
37
@mhenriday The writer used the word "unfortunately" here in an ironic sense, not literally. I'm sure most people here would agree completely with you!
4
This happens in Corporate America every day. Look at how Steve Jobs handled his employees. Speak to anyone employed in banking. Suicides at one Amazon facility in Florida is telling. It's not okay; it just is.
100
@Patricia
Amazon is to be despised as well as the laws in place that make this monopoly/conglomerate legal.. and sometimes the only game in town. That said,
In May on a WI radio station Amazon was advertising a 10K bonus for employees who would quit-- and then work as delivery people for Amazon....
No more prime subscription for me... bye bye.. and PS have bought nothing on Amazon in months... Pat on the head for me.
3
Capitalism is dog eat dog always and outside competition will change the culture of even a good company. To expect lifetime employment today is to expect unicorns. Calling it the Human Resource department should tell you people are considered an implement and nothing more. Not a single word of this article is a surprise. To work for another is to be used, not employed.
47
Harassing employees to the point of suicide is unacceptable by any standard. But labor laws should not box a company in to the extent that they are not allowed to retrench employees. 130,000 employees is a heavy load to carry in a company that has lost direction and needs a makeover.
In almost any other country France Telecom would be able to lay off 22,000 employees (a 17% reduction). France's laws should not force companies to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
36
@DA Mann - I recall at Foxconn in China, where employees were massively overworked, suicide became a problem at the facility. People jumping from windows on upper floors. Management's solution: put nets out, so they don't hit the ground. Really cynical. But, unbridled capitalism has no room for the human element. Sad.
24
Cut work hours, not employees
5
@Jesse That's fine for short-term downturns, but it doesn't work over the long-term.
1
This is capitalism at its worst: blind, cut-throat, dog-eat-dog, with no moral compass. I can only hope we are in the very beginning of a paradigm shift about the nature of work and the meaning of life. Suicide is not the way to begin the discussion but it may be the fulcrum on which it all begins. Why do we work? What does it have to do with the meaning of life? Are we capable of answering these questions in a humane and intelligent manner?
84
You cannot compare the nature of work in the the USA to that in France. Before being subjected to brutal change, and maybe harassment, those 120 000 workers were too safe. Promotion and pay raises came automatically with years of service, management was remote and paternalistic, and nothing could get you fired. The worst that could happen was that you were stuck in a job doing not much work, getting plenty of paid sick leave and to what amounted to at least 5 weeks paid leave per year. Opportunities were not great, and nor was the pay, generally, but you could go fishing and play “boules” with your friends knowing you would have a job, and a regular pay packet when you came back. Who has that in the US? Postal workers once? But be careful what you wish for, my friends. This rigidity and protection of whole categories of employees led to large long term unemployment of those who did not have that luck, and dare I say it, a culture of mediocrity and entitlement.
33
Less rigidity and additional opportunity are certainly welcome, and you make a reasonable point about the workplace becoming “too safe.”
But while lifetime employment might not be the solution, mechanisms should be put in place to ensure a more ample social safety net for those displaced before retirement age. Here in the United States, these protections have eroded, as have employment stability and wage levels.
Germany and the Scandinavian countries have done the most to maximize business productivity, lifelong employment opportunities and a robust safety net after retirement.
12
@Amy Haible
What happened is terrible and tragic. But isn't the underlying problem that the France Telecom couldn't just fire the employees to cut back on costs? France Telecom is losing marketshare to people switching to mobile phones only, shrinking revenue, without an ability to rein in costs, reduce work force size.
I'm not at all defending the actions and outcomes of the company, but companies not having control to downsize and rein in costs, particularly ones that are in a shrinking industry, is not capitalism.
The people responsible need to be punished. No question. But France as a whole needs to take a look at balancing workers rights and the ability for corporations to be competitive. The solution isn't going to be simple, or easy, and needs buy in from the government, the people, and companies. Severance pay and training for companies in new product spaces to remain competitive, short term unemployment benefits, universal healthcare from government, accessible and affordable community colleges. A willingness for workers to learn new fields, trades, or move within the country to where job demand is.
35 people were harassed until they committed suicide.
Why is the penalty a mere year in jail and $16,800 fine?
And no, business competition is not an adequate defense.
Words are inadequate to describe my outrage.
151
@ANetliner
Well, I'll take it. Here in the states we don't do anything at all to the thousands of business leaders at big companies who engineer layoffs and 'downsizing' with no thought for those they turn out. The only reason people are not driven to suicide in the United States over their jobs...is because businesses can throw them to the curb...
Then we wrongly assume their are other reasons for their deaths. The rate of suicide among our own long term unemployed is significantly higher than among our employed.
Require lifetime employment in the US....and you would see the same situation on the part of corporations.
39
One year in prison? They should all get life sentences without the possibility of parole and have to surrender every last franc of their assets to the victims’ families.
67
@Whattheheck
francs? those were the days
1
I lived in France in the 1990s before the digital revolution. Phone service was monopolistic and expensive, with long distance calling to North America a $1 per minute. It was 50% cheaper to use a service that would call me from the US and provide a line.
So what happens when a company builds and is forced to retain its workforce when cell phones and services like skype eliminate these ridiculous profits? The change or go bankrupt.
France Telecom had two choices - reduce unnecessary labor or go out of business. 20% of the workforce vs. 100%. French laws, driven by labor union demands created these conditions.
Perhaps the labor leaders and their political puppets should be on trial as well.
46
@Matt
Very good. You just defined the upcoming problem in terms of running a post-agricultural AI economy. What happens to the people who are here.. (and what about trying to lower the birthrate!). 1000 a month for citizens? What makes one kind of work 100's or 1000's more valuable or better paid than another?? (income inequality) How much is enough?
When my brother's pharmaceutical company left France, he was well cared for but apparently not these workers.
Nineteenth century economic ideas -- Neoliberalism - with the possible exception of Maxism won't work in a world where much of the land is occupied or uninhabitable . Connundrum.
PS
? How does a company become 50 billion in debt?? interest due on bankster loans? obligations to retired employees?? payroll?? (Trump just didn't pay the contractors!!)
@Matt Yes, even though the workers are at the bottom of the ladder, it's somehow always their fault-- not the people that manage the company, not the investors-- when everything goes wrong. We have a remarkable philosophy of economics in this country: somehow the weakest part of the chain is always responsible for the damage.
1
@Dominic how many of your friends and family no longer use a landline for telephone, or DSL for internet?
Those copper wire technologies are going away, along with the revenue and jobs that supported them.
So what should a company do? Pay people to do a job that's not needed? Or reassign them? France Telecom did the latter, and some workers decided suicide was preferable to learning a new job.
1
So the Times informs us that workers say sand then what management says.
But, believe it or not, there are people who actually study these questions. Comparing, say, labor law in the U.S. and France, can we reasonably conclude that labors protections are stifling the French economy?
OTOH, when one side of a dispute has money and political power, it appears we're all relativists: there is no such thing as objective reality, just opinions.
9
France Telecom had and has the best network in France, which makes it one of the best in the world. They were a front runner on home servers and first to employ high-speed networks. They were required by the gov’t to provide service in rural areas (not profitable) where the private networks were invisible( it’s somewhat different now).
In no imaginable way was FT caught flat-footed by digital. Their service is top-notch and the engineers that worked there amongst the best available.
Like the public school system and public health-care system in France (both the pride of the country, before, and rightly so), FT came up against government budget headwinds and restrictive labor laws.
Clearly management went way too far, no excuses for that.
48
@RW True about the network but some of the upper echelon management had appallingly sharp tongues even in past pre Orange. And there were many wasteful operational practices. However, this psychological abuse hits a workforce not prepared for such tactics. They are very hard to resist in that you almost have to change your core psychology. Telecom in the U.S. has been famous for them by the way.
1
It seems like a Catch-22: the company was going under, but they were not allowed to lay off any employees. Forced to privatize, and with billions in debt, I wonder what options they had to keep the entire company from going out of business -- which would have left the entire, unemployable workforce out of work? Does the French system really leave employees and employers so few choices?
53
Why not shorten the workday to keep more employees employed?
5
Yes, unfortunately, it does
"A grim universe of underemployment, marginalization, miscasting and systematic harassment was established at the huge company, according to testimony at the trial."
France is not the only country where this happens. How many times have these tactics been used at corporations in this country?
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@Stan Sutton the difference you a company can much more easily fire you if they want/need to downside, very hard to do in France.
This should be the norm anywhere.
Corporations are instruments of significant power because they are a wealth aggregator.
And when in the hands of a few individuals (namely the C-Suite), they can leverage the ideas of those leaders to a level not seen since the Gilded Age. Add in a SCOTUS decision allowing unlimited campaign $ + a new Justice who ruled against the plaintiff in the Frozen Trucker case, and you have a real problem for those concerned about worker rights and business ethics.
With the "Corporations Are People Too" mantra, consequences can be ignored since individuals don't pay for their acts.
For a very long time, Corporations were "Persons" under the law. That is fine, since it allows for property rights and standing to sue, etc.
But they shouldn't be people.
If you strip that, and make a few more reality based adjustments, you absolutely can bring accountability back to US business. But first it requires Republicans to admit the damage these entities do, and it requires Democrats to truly be pro-worker. I don't see that happening. Money is simply too big in politics to be pushed out.
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@Jack there has to be a balance. Both sides take advantage. Having employees who slack off because of guarantees hurts everyone.
2
@Jack
Today "corporations are people"; and people are "human resources".
1
It is unfortunate that occupying a position of authority will, at times, bring out the worst in many people. Here, there and everywhere.
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I don't understand the uniqueness of French employment--why didn't employees leave or file a complaint with the government? And I don't mean it to victim-blame at all. I'm thinking of the young man. If one is in a job that is revolting at the age of 28, is one not able to leave and find a new job in France? Are there laws that prevent mobility from one job to another?
20
Like it says in the article, there’s a really high unemployment rate in France, which makes people afraid that if they leave their job, they won’t be able to find a comparable one elsewhere. And they still have the culture, which we used to have in the US until several decades ago, of people expecting to work at the same company for life (and often doing so), so if one left one’s company, it would be assumed by many prospective employers that one wasn’t a team player and/or wasn’t a good worker...
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@Brooklyn Dog Geek
France requires lifetime employment, lifetime, if you stay past a certain time, like a tenured professor, so people are reluctant to leave. It also makes it so people can't find new work because others too won't leave freeing up a space. It allows dead weight workers to coast for years. It is a worker rights protection that went way too far. Employment is casing a slow motion revolution in France, just as unaffordable healthcare is here in the US.
24
@Brooklyn Dog Geek I left France some 30 years ago, after gaining a PhD because simultaneously to studying for my PhD, I was studying for a degree in American Literature. Interviewers in top recruitment places just couldn't get their head round that I could have more than 1 interest in life, and I couldnt' find employment. I left France and have spent my entire career (to finish in a few years' time) abroad in the field I gained my PhD in, and where my multiple interests were celebrated rather than criticised.
While I miss some of the aspects of French culture (food and wine especially, and the beauty of the country), I don't regret moving away for my career. I don't believe it has changed since.
17
In America, one could always find work at a competitor. Not so in France. It's the end of the line for their employees. That's got to be the reason.
26
Go to the rustbelt. See the middle-aged people who lost their jobs over globalization and in 2008 -- they're not hard to find. Ask them why they didn't find work at a competitor.
The fact that the misery in the US is still unrecognized says a lot about how much progressives have learned since 2016 and how much needs to be learned before 2020 @Ryan
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@Ken Seigneurie: The idea that misery in the US is unrecognized is nonsense. Hillary Clinton saw these problems and would have done ten times anything that Donald Trump has actually done for these people. Playing up and prolonging this misery is a strategy of the Republican Party. Who controls the states where this misery persists? Real relief will come only when Democrats are elected. Which party gave tax relief to the ultra-rich? Which party wants to raise the minimum wage? The great fear of the Right is that they will finally be recognized for what they are and who they are really looking out for.
28
@Stan Sutton, Real relief means moving to where the jobs are. Democrats offer up talk but never back it up.
I think the same is going on at my work place to one employee. The employee took 90 days off bc he/she’s emotionally unstable. And it’s sort of a state job.. so :)
11
The same things happen in the US. Just ask anybody that’s been put on short term objectives or “dog piled” at work. Or perhaps deemed too old.
214
“This isn’t going to be lacework here,” Mr. Barberot said in 2007. “We’re going to put people in front of life’s realities.”
The postman always rings twice.
25
And looks like these ruthless execs are about to get their bells rung.