Perhaps Europe should be more concerned with finding a system to fight the far more consistent, invasive, insidious, historical U.S. meddling in its affairs. See where the true influential existential threat is.
1
I was disappointed by two major things in this article. The first issue is an editorial one, being that some statements are seen as evident by TNYT editors and thus go without explanation, while many readers will probably find them arguable. The clearest example of this is the following sentence in the third paragraph: "In many ways, the European Union has been more aggressive than Washington in demanding changes from social media companies and seeking novel ways to fight disinformation." While I agree with this viewpoint, it is not further explained. The second issue is one of strong political bias. Although I agree with the fact that Russia plays a big role in the E.U.'s political stage and influences the elections greatly, not everything should be seen as a direct and overt form of Russian meddling. Italy's, Hungary's and Poland's governments do have ideas similar to and probably shaped by Russia's, but there is no evidence for a deep-rooted opportunistic connection between these E.U. states and Russia.
Will the NYT ever resign itself to the fact that there has been no meddling in the 2016 elections? There is plenty of evidence that Mueller's report does not make sense when it says otherwise. Read Aaron Mate on this.
And will it ever stop setting up the straw man of Russian aggression? In European elections there has been none. Despite fears to the contrary, amplified by the usual stultifying media, the chiefs of intelligence of France and Germany are on record to say that there has been no meddling in the recent elections. None, zero, zilch.
Not unlike the USA, which keeps meddling in the affairs of other countries, often with appalling results.
dear NYT, just get it: no meddling. From someone who does not like Trump.
Can anybody show indisputable, solid and verifiable proof that Russia, China, Iran, North Korea or any other nation that needs to be “punished” has really meddled in the US elections, or personally distributed cookies to street protesters, or called for the US military to act against the White House, etcetera, etc.?
None of those countries are led by angels, nor by the demons our tv tells us. But many of our friends are in the same boat. And our MSM barely touches them.
Since our specialists can act on anyone’s cibersystem (including our own) and leave behind footprints leading to any source, from any country, there is no way to trust their statements as true, except by an act of sheer blind faith. History tells us that is unwise, to put it mildly.
Unfortunately, Hitler and Goebbel’s “teachings” still apply:
“A lie, repeated a thousand times, becomes a truth”
“ A big lie is more credible than a small lie”
Lets hope honesty is not dan dead and buried.
12
@bitof IQ Yes, some of these countries are led by demons. Precisely. What kind of name is bitof IQ, and why are so many comments like these referring to "big lie" strategy?
"... show indisputable, solid and verifiable proof ..."
There is no such thing.
"... really meddled in the US elections ..."
Define "really meddled".
Does the DNC email hack meet your sky-high standards?
Implementing a proper government-run Ministry of Truth is hard to do because it’s essentially a fool’s errand.
8
Rather than a Red Scare Democrats might be better served by focusing on a Green Scare. After all, Jill Stein’s third party candidacy siphoned off 1.5 million votes in 2016 including hundreds of thousands of votes in key swing states.
5
“The European Union launched an ambitious effort earlier this year to combat election interference: an early-warning system that would sound alarms about Russian propaganda.”
And how about US/Saudi/UAE/Israel propaganda or is that acceptable?
Why hasn’t the US secured our voting machines, created by corporations, most without a paper trail, that are easily hacked?
8
@Steve
Actually the Dems in the House did pass a bill requiring all states to have paper ballot backups . Guess what ? Vladimir McConnell won’t even bring it up to the Senate floor for a debate. The Republicans are SHAMEFUL!
Maybe a reverse firewall, if possible that filters, out content that originates in Russia.
"Maybe a reverse firewall, if possible that filters, out content that originates in Russia."
In principle, a country could be subjected to an internet blockade, but that would cause problems for legitimate users, including businesses, news media, and travelers.
Further, blockades are notoriously hard to enforce. In this case, Russia could set up operations in a non-EU country or operate out of its embassies.
Anyway, such a blockade would be antithetical to the EU's commitment to openness and freedom of speech.
The European Union should remember the Russians were there a long time ago working for discord and conflict.
1
time’s up .. fight back
With every verified instance of meddling, the United States should shut down a Russian agency with cyber. But that won’t happen till we get rid of the domestic terrorist in our WH.
1
Russia powers Europe with natural gas, just as Trump powers the deplorables with natural gas.
Europe is only looking on Russia but when Trump explains his thoughts about brexit nobody cry the fool and everybody shout the mouth. Americans do the same and nobody look at it...
1
Why do news organizations like The NY Times continue to use the weak and the benign sounding term of “meddling” when clearly the Russians initiated an attack on our democracy/elections.
Just because it wasn’t with bombs doesn’t mean the action wasn’t hostile and threatening.
Perhaps if you addressed the “meddling” a bit more serious, with terms like attacking, infiltrating or invading maybe more more Americans would wake up and recognize the danger to our way of life and stand up for democracy - because that’s not what’s happening now especially with an election that’s just around the corner.
NYT you can do better. Don’t sugar coat the Russian’s sinister and duplicitous evil actions by continuing to call it MEDDLING !!!
4
So now any expressed opinion that "aligns" with Russian opinion is "Russian meddling"? What a joke this has become.
29
@henry talon I'm wondering how you might have felt about opinions that "aligned" with the Soviet Union's government back in the day. Would you have been a principled defender of free speech or would you have made an exception for "Communist propaganda"?
I never thought Soviet operatives had much to do with, say, opposition to the war on Vietnam. I believe J. Edgar Hoover had a different take.
I certainly think we should be aware of Russian government propaganda and especially the fully hidden attempts to sow division among our people. We do a good enough job dividing ourselves, outside "help" not appreciated.
24
@henry talon
Russia's public opinion and the Kremlin's talking points are two different things. Stop conflating Russia with the tyrants that govern it.
7
Well, best defence it is to heal the division that cause by American themselves, then there will be no need to fear Russian propaganda, because everybody will believe American Government and will not look for alternative sources of information
3
Why are we so worried about Russia? The biggest disinformation campaign is coming from the White House. 10,000 lies and counting.
204
@Jeff
Because the Republicans are now fellow travelers with the Russians.
Even when they don't coordinate by secret back channels we've already seen them work to create, their goals are quite similar, create a nationalistic, authoritarian, kleptocratic government, where older white conservative men continue accrue the benefits, while the rest of us are fed so much propaganda that we waste all our time having to fight to distinguish reality from the alternative history this has created.
The intelligence community is being neutered by an insistence that any investigation into Trump must be partisan spying, causing them to wonder if their sources and methods to learn of further Russian meddling attempts will be exposed and defeated by the administration itself, despite their gaslighting claims of "no collusion" that alternate with Trump's obvious prostration to Putin at every meeting (each of which, unsurprisingly, has to have a secret meeting as well).
The Russian model of "democracy" has come to America, and we have just one more election to root it out before it becomes permanent.
So we are relying on the very system that is increasingly under attack to save us when we wait for the ballot box to reverse this ongoing attack.
101
@Jeff let’s not forget that google and Facebook have thrown in with using their platforms to influence the election mate
4
@Jeff
True.
And Trump is Much more anti American than Russia is.
He is a clear and present danger.
20
At least Europe is building a system to fight Russian meddling while the Republicans in Congress won't bring a bill to the floor to even consider a plan to protect our next election thanks to Mitch McConnell. McConnell is as big a threat to American national security and democracy as Putin.
230
McConnell is too rich to care about anything except the right-wing fun he's having shredding American government and delivering it to global boss Putin who is using his FAB, GRU internet tools, Trump to crush America's power.
@Jacquie-McConnell got paid when he accepted the lion's share of $7.35 million offered to GOP campaigns by Putin-linked oligarchs. McConnell promoted Treasury's move to lift U.S. sanctions against Oleg Deripaska firm (Rusal) despite strong bi-partisan protests. Coincidently Rusal now plans to invest $1.7 billion to build an aluminum milling plant in Kentucky. Deripaska--of intimidation, theft, bribery, murder and Russian mafia ties fame--has sent the first $200 million installment to the state; a hefty payoff for McConnell, Rand Paul, and Republicans controlling the state. McConnell is a pox on democracy.
Surely It's a Coincidence That a Firm Tied to a Russian Oligarch Is Pouring Millions Into Kentucky
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a27259438/oleg-deripaska-kentucky-aluminum-mitch-mcconnell-rand-paul
How Putin's Proxies Helped Funnel Millions into GOP Campaigns
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/12/15/putins-proxies-helped-funnel-millions-gop-campaigns
2
@AnnTrue, add my name to the list to eliminate this Mc Connell cancer.
1
I'm confused.
Didn't Nixon collude with the South Vietnamese to block a peace plan just before the election?
Didn't Reagan collude with Iranians promising them a better deal if they continued to hold US hostages till after the election. And in Trumpesque fashion the hostages landed at the DC airport at the moment he was being sworn in.
And of course the whole world knows that the Israelis are king of the hill when it comes to collusion..... with both US parties. They win either way. MIT's prof Chomsky details this with regularity.
Then there's the US, physically invading the reeling Russia with NGO's and tons of $$ to support Boris Yeltsin in 1996.
How is it the reader is denied this historical background of collusion so we might better place this information in context?
2
It does look like this European alert system has either been coopted by Russia, or may even have been created and run by them. Similar to the Russian takeover of our intentions to look into their interference here.
We do have to hand it to the Russians – for the excellent job they seem to be doing – especially how they've enlisted the executive branch of our government.
3
It is the "fake news" claims that are fake news.
The amount of Russian fake news and its influence is absolutely marginal. In the mean time there has been considerable uproar in the Netherlands about the EU labeling genuine news as fake. And it is an open scandal that the British government is spending tens of millions on troll factories like the Integrity Initiative - violating its democratic mandate.
Its ok. The current President has said he would use whatever information "they" (Putin )passed on to him productively.
Russia, a key Soviet in the erstwhile USSR has won the Cold War. It has its stooge in the White House and running circles around the some of the NATO nations of Western Europe.
I don’t know how you define a victory . This is my definition of the victors of the Cold War
1
Why do the Republicans want Russian medaling? Why dos Russia want to keep Trump and the Mitch in power?
It's not so much about "having something on Trump" (likely) nor about the desire to see America fail (also likely as it is not enough that I success, my friends must also fail) .
No, it's a mutual pact of profiteering by international lobbies and manufacturers. Tired as it is, follow the money. Dupes on all sides are but pawns in a hidden game of profit. Some poor hacker in Russia thinks he's doing something good? awww.
3
It's not misinformation and propaganda per se the EU is worried about as the EU also engages in such activity -- what they are upset about is Russia "meddling" in their affairs since meddling in other countries is their prerogative.
1
U.S. meddling in Venezuela, Iran and Yemen is much more lethal and overt than anything Russia has done to us. Additionally, saying that Trump is too close to Putin (the president of a nuclear armed state) is a right wing- pro war industry talking point that is suprisingly being used by both so called "progressives"and war hawks alike. As comedian Dave Chappelle stated: "Russia ain't make us racist." Obsessed with "Russian meddling?" Please see this for some enlightenment on your condition: https://youtu.be/uR07OtEhKPE.
2
Globally people are too lame to understand Putin's FSB, GRU plan to chase Middle Eastern and African refugees into Europe via his indirect ISIS funding via Saudis, insurgent factions, Propaganda, to foment right-wingers and change governments for Putin's benefit. His brilliant strategy is working better than he expected.
Russia doesn’t have much to worry about when it comes to migrants or refugees.
Putin could give out the Russian equivalent of green cards for free, but he would have no takers.
Like many hacks, what Russia is running is a psychological exploit. They are using our own strength of conviction against us. The more convinced you are that "the other side" is not just wrong but evil the better it is for Russia. The Europeans seem to want their government to tell them what is obvious to every ordinary person who is aware of their surroundings.
2
Russian interference not only gave Trump his leg up into the White House and the debacle we're living through, I suspect it has fomented and promulgated our "house divided" calculating that it will not stand. And it may not. I propose that this blind, bullheaded Us/Them political climate has been cultivated by persistent, sustained interference. Russia is waging a "soft" war against us and it is succeeding. I simply don't believe Americans would be as fanatically opposed to one another without it. Without Russian interference, Trump still be a wannabe, just a minor celebrity.
2
It's time for people every where to understand that we are in a cyber war with Russia. The Putin autocracy is pushing governments to abandon liberal democracy for strong man rule to garner allies.
This movement has been propelled by the illegal immigration crises. Does this mean we have to ally with a kleptomaniacal assassin?
1
how do you combat such disinformation from a dictatorial closed society? it's assymetric warfare. so you undermine Putin/GRU by opening up inbound RU information channels? by opening up societal/cultural exchanges? economic relations?
What your recounting is the Elite world order control socialists of the European Union are having trouble analyzing and thwarting the concentrated efforts of the Russian Elites lead by Putin while decrying the invasion of the minions of the Islamic Elites and ignoring the advances by the Chinese Elites to rule the world.
Really!
2
Putin commands Trump's chaos on the USA. Trump always plays "too rich to care" while being on Russian bailout dole for decades. USA is duped and doomed if this shameful sham continues.
The internet is Putin's FSB, GRU tool to kill America while asset Trump undermines government and delivers smoke and mirrors distractions.
Who decided that the word was “meddling?” That’s a soft word for what the Russians do, and it effectively diminishes their motives; it’s as if this were happening on the sixth grade playground. How about “illegally intruding” or “destructively interfering?” Meddling is something you do when grandpa is dating his young housekeeper. It’s not what nations do to create chaos in and destroy the democratic institutions of other nations.
6
We do not take foreign influence seriously enough. In fact we do not, in school or life, take our individual responsibility for governing seriously. We need better civics education to start with.
6
"The European Union launched an ambitious effort earlier this year to combat election interference: an early-warning system that would sound alarms about Russian propaganda. Despite high expectations, however, records show that the system has become a repository for a mishmash of information, produced no alerts and is already at risk of becoming defunct."
Perfect, the GOP says; let's adopt that system...
2
The reason "efforts to combat election interference" by Russia is not working, is very simple: there is no such interference. What is missing is an honest forum to discuss and debate differences in points of view concerning Russian interests and actions, especially those in reactions to western provocations, such as "Euro-Maidan". Crimea would never have seceded had that coup, sponsored and upported by the NED, never taken place. This is not Russian proaganda, it is simple facts plain for all to see and verify.
2
Reminds me of the seen in Naked Gun where the fireworks factory is exploding and Leslie Neilson is standing in front telling everybody to “move along, there is nothing to see here.”
The Russian interference is that obvious.
@DanGood
Mueller has said there was interference. Did you read the report? I suspect that you may not like seeing Africans from Africa in Europe. But Europe inflicted Heart of Darkness atrocities in Africa.
Anyway you cannot prove a negative. Mueller has proved a positive. Like Trump himself, to propose no interference from Russia is utterly preposterous.
The Russians have been playing chess with the free world and winning. For us to effectively combat Russian interference we would need a central arbiter to determine what news is real and what is fake. Once we have that free speech is history. We either have the problem or we institutionalize the problem. Checkmate.
Can someone please stand up and explain to America that Russia has been warring on the free world for years -- and winning?
1
@Scott B
Excellent suggestion Scott. An independent bureau of fact checking is a brilliant idea. Though if Trump had any part of initiating it he would likely ask Vladimir to be part of such a bureau. Remember when he thought Vlad's idea of having a joint investigative team to look into Russian meddling? That was at the time of the Helsinki debacle.
Nevertheless it is a superb idea that you have come up with.
How about the Western Government and media will earn trust of their own people? In this case, people will not feel the need to check alternative sources of information.
2
@yulia If the New York Times hasn't earned the trust of it's readership, it never will. The problem is that it is so easy for someone to call something fake news and he true believers will accept the statement.
The situation in the USA is a bit different.
Trump actively solicits Russian meddling: witness his wink to Putin when he said, Don't meddle in US elections.
Trump's Republican Enablers wring their hands publicly, but that is the extent of their commitment.
The Republican SCOTUS majority will probably rule that as long as it is partisan disinformation, it is not for them to get involved with.
It's all very well to accuse Vladimir Putin and Russia of meddling in the elections of other countries, but I have one question, what are the plans of the USA to put an end to meddling in the elections of countries where government are not to the liking of the USA?
2
At least the government leadership in EU gives lip service and a timid attempt. We are saddled with a President who, like his Russian best friend, hold s cynical view of integrity and representative democracy. I might feel better if Trump were at least Putin’s equal, but that certainly is not the case.
Mitch and Donald have still done nothing about the Russian attack. That right there is in itself bald-face collusion.
Not to take urgent action to do something about 2020 is clear proof of CURRENT collusion
3
0bviously, the task is not an easy one to master. The project started by the EU to fend off election meddling by foreign countries may not yet be working as effective as one would wish. But at least, the EU has recognized the threat and tries to counter it.
In comparison, what exactly are the USA doing? Nothing, nada, zilch.
In fact, the POTUS impersonator currently inhabiting the White House is open to listen to information provided by foreign governments (not only Norway!) as long as it helps him politically, namely with regards to (re-) elections.
Who is therefore to commend? Those who at least try to fight foreign interference or those who embrace it?
1
At least they are taking action in Europe. Trump seems to want the attack on America to repeat itself in 2020. In fact it will be worse.
Trump and the GOP are doing nothing about it. Nothing. Donald needs it to continue because he is the most unpopular (nay, despised) President in American history even though he said he got better poll numbers than Lincoln. His lemmings endorse him even despite the fact (remember facts?) that there were no polls in Lincoln's time. Just as there were no airports in the Revolutionary War.
His inaction is in itself clear collusion........
2
And the difference between the Republican Party using fear and hate to motivate conservatives, as they have done since Nixon, and the workings of the Russian propagandists is precisely what?
Go on any conservative page on any social media platform and try to find any meaningful difference between the usual hate mongers and Putin’s bots. They all lie. They all stir up a simmering rage. They all belittle anyone who disagrees with their point of view. They are already laying the groundwork for gutting universities, shutting down the press, and eventually rounding up and making their opposition disappear.
It has happened in Europe. It has happened in South and Central America. And it can happen here.
2
The efforts to upset opposing states with disinformation, propaganda, and biased arguments are standard practice in our world.
By that does not make all equally detestable and unworthy of trust. The difference between countries that use liberal democracy and are governed by the consent of the govern do respect people and rely upon mutual trust to be effective. Regimes that serve rulers and require compliance and obedience from the governed are dependent upon the ability to oppress to endure. Those who head such regimes survive because they are more clever than the many who would toss them from power.
If you listen to others, you will hear some praise the strength and ability of powerful leaders who they claim have saved their countries and have made them great ones. They dismiss facts of murder and corruption used to gain and retain power, and that the leaders are just paranoid tyrants. They are seeking to convince people that these autocrats are just like all other leaders and their police states like all others. You are possibly talking to an agent spreading disinformation or those conned by such people.
In December 2018 the European Commision set up the Rapid Alert System (RAS) to help EU member states fight disinformation campaigns ahead of the European elections in May this year.
The budget – between two to five million euros – was humble, compared to the Russian one. Putin is accused of spending more than $1 billion a year to spread lies and disinformation as part of his strategy to sow discord in Europe.
The Commission also pressed technology companies to play their part in cracking down on fake news. But the system turned out to be a “Potemkin village.”
The RAS spotted “continued and sustained disinformation activity from Russian sources,” while never issuing “any alerts at all”, fearing it would violate the freedom of expression etc.
Russia learned its lesson from the 2016 US election. Instead of holding accounts that can be traced, it uses European websites and social media accounts to operate, while bankrolling far-right parties to be its Trojan Horse.
Recent tensions in Northern Ireland are allegedly stoked by Russian operatives, by using ostensibly Irish Facebook accounts. The paralysis in the UK due to Brexit is another Putin’s masterpiece.
Obviously the EU is too divided to agree on how to counter Russian malign influence. Putin’s billion-dollar investment in dividing Europe seems to pay off.
1
>>> "Putin is accused of spending more than $1 billion a year to spread lies and disinformation as part of his strategy to sow discord in Europe."
Well, an accusation! He must be guilty.
1
Disinformation campaigns and election meddling are nothing new. In the 1970's and 1980's the Soviets pumped money into the anti-nuclear, anti-US movements in Europe. Letting the government try to regulate this is like playing whack-a-mole because the government will always be two steps behind the trolls and others. Better the government goes on offense and attacks the online trolls and others.
1
No one needed Russia in 2016 to tell them that the US was bleeding manufacturing jobs, that deaths of despair (suicide and drug overdoses) were up, that NAFTA benefited Mexico more than it did the average US blue collar worker, or that there were more people who wanted to immigrate to the US than the US could accommodate. Russia also wasn't behind accusations of Islamophobia, xenophobia and bigotry aimed at every American who read about ISIS and ISIS inspired attacks in Paris, Belgium, Berlin, Barcelona, Orlando, San Bernadino or Nice, and questioned if it was a good idea to have millions of Sunni Arabs from Syria and Iraq settle in Europe and the US.
2
As opposed to American propaganda. Its seems to me the establishment parties get hammered and the next one hears are cries of Russian interference. The Russians are not brilliant geniuses. The US by far out spends them on every measure. From defense to white hate speech. Let the buyer beware.
2
I don’t believe there’s a reason to panic over Russian (or US) interference in the most recent EU elections. Europeans are maybe less gullible than Americans (probably far more of them that take the bible literally than in EU); Fb had no influence on my vote whatsoever (I only use my Fb account to log in into free WiFi)
2
We need a new moral panic. This one is becoming really boring.
1
Europe needs to build into its Rapid Alert System an educational component: It is super important to explain to the public how disinformation works so they know how to recognize it. The public could be effective in reporting disinformation to R.A.S.
Why is Russia allowed to get away with this? Because they're a "sovereign nation" they can hide behind national borders and commit crimes? Can I hide in my house and hack into local businesses and banks with impunity? Can't the rest of the world at least sanction the Russian economy (which isn't really that big, esp. if you subtract oil revenue) into submission?
47
@JimBob
Because the entire advanced world would be sanctioning itself. Remember what we did in Ukraine? How about when we were hacking other nations politicians phones?
I do not understand why the USA acts so high and mighty over this particular issue. Could be a case of do as I say---not as I do.
In a digital world no nation can stop meddling. How about we try and get an informed electorate and better candidates.
Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton? Revolting. Donald Trump or likely Joe Biden? A microscopic improvement. But seriously---this is the best we can do?
11
@JimBob If Hillary was the POTUS this would have already been happening. The only thing more worrisome for Putin was a Hillary victory and Trump knows it.
4
@JimBob
If you have a nuclear sub with ICBMs in a nearby pond, yes, you can hide in your house and hack into local businesses and banks with impunity.
That is the lesson that North Korea and Iran learned after Irak and Libya. You won't be attacked if you carry a big stick. Even if you don't speak softly.
2
What to do about fake news? Getting news principally through social media is no better than quenching our thirst in a dirty river. We should expect contamination and not be surprised by it. It’s part of the moronic millennial obsession of sinking our noses into smart phones and not coming up to breath. Go back in time a little, and choose outlets that use real journalists, who don’t just process blurbs which cater to a shrinking attention span and beg more questions than are answered.
29
One of the great unsung intelligence victories of the Cold War was the meticulously patient and humiliating role played by western agencies in the seventy year decline of the Soviet Union. The west carefully studied Russian society, identified its weaknesses, and exploited them through guile and manipulation, leading to eastern catastrophe and western jubilation. The West lost no time in capitalising on the defeat by unleashing unopposed war in the Middle East, keeping the political triumph against Russia a closed secret for the sake of expedience. The narrative was that democracy had won over communism. However, democracy had won by adopting decidedly undemocratic ways and means of subverting foreign governments that it didn’t like. Bruised but chastened, Russia attempts to redress detente by inflicting exactly the same on the West.
NGO’s, media outlets, and business contacts were chiefly where the west exploited perceived Russian vulnerabilities through political manipulation, propaganda, and corruption respectively. Russia adopts the same strategy with updated targets: social media, for example, is viewed as a western frailty because it is largely unrestricted and prone to manipulation.
The real danger, however, is the threat posed by western politicians and business leaders who admire how Russia has empowered and enriched its ruling and industrial classes and seek to emulate that success. Democracy is derided as passé and there is no moral ascendancy on either side.
12
The Soviet Union was an unsuccessful State because it could not honestly address it’s challenges, not because it’s many enemies were so clever. The issue was due to trying to make reality conform with the ideas of Marx and to conform with the political power dynamics that developed in the Bolshevik state with it’s concern for counterrevolution and enemy capitalistic foreign states. That assertion that all it’s failures were due to external bad actors is nonsense from those who are trying to revise history. By the time Gorbachev was in charge the situation was beyond recovery.
4
The Soviet Union began interfering in countries around the world from the beginning. First to promote world revolution and then to counter the open efforts to destroy it by capitalist countries and counterrevolutionaries, by agitation, disinformation, espionage, and support for internal opposition to hostile governments. They were the foremost practitioners at the time, and the got better right through the Cold War.
Russia is a mess. It has nukes. It has weapons of war and minerals to sell without added value. It’s technology and science was so inhibited under the Soviet Union that it’s incapable of offering products of great value that can compete for market share internationally. The oligarchy prevents Russians from improving themselves. Putin salts away billions in foreign places in case he must make an escape.
9
One of the best NYT posts I’ve read in a long time. Sounds to me as if your understanding of disinformation and other forms of political manipulation in the never ending East/West battle for supremacy is unbiased and comprehensive. I hope you are teaching somewhere.
1
Well, it's definitely time for our country, whether or not Trump authorizes and/or approves to return their favor and meddle with Russia'system.
After all, Trump has been sitting on his hands during our last two elections failing to defend us with Trump subordinating, and it's time to reciprocate and proffer and meddle in their cyber system.
Why should the Russians be the only player to derive benefits from us?
3
As Joe Biden said recently it never happened
“Look at what’s happening with [Russian President Vladimir] Putin,” Biden told CNN’s Chris Cuomo. “While Putin is trying to undo our elections, he is undoing elections in Europe. Look what’s happened in Hungary. Look what’s happened in Poland. Look what’s happened in Moldova. You think that would happen on my watch or Barack’s watch? You can’t answer that, but I promise you it wouldn’t have, and it didn’t.”
10
@PeterC What never happened? Russian meddling? Of course it happened and Trump is the one who failed to do a thing, or worse participated. Nothing has been proven to the contrary.
@PeterC
"You think that would happen on my watch or Barack’s watch? You can’t answer that, but I promise you it wouldn’t have, and it didn’t.”
It didn't???
Who was at the helm during the 2016 election??
2
The EU is concerned about Russian meddling. The White House and Republican party welcome it.
68
@Ron This is a bogus issue. If there is genuine concern about alleged Russia meddling why not start with paper ballots. Then present some solid evidence that it has actually happened.
The real meddling is from U.S. corporations and the uber wealthy. Then there is the ridiculous gerrymandering in nearly every state.
1
So, the representatives of nearly 0.5bn people working out of 28 sovereign countries, with baseline political systems ranging from Soviet communism right through to close US partnership, can't decide together what 'Russian propaganda' looks like?
Sheesh. Who d'a thought it?
3
@nolongeradoc They are overpaid bureaucrats and yes, they have made thousands of rules governing trade, but politically they are challenged when it comes to agreeing on very much. The same logjams we see in our current Administration which resorts to threats and then "emergency" action to pass unsupported legislation.
Which of the EU 28 is Soviet Communist?
@nolongeradoc
"ranging from Soviet communism"
Alright boss.
I remember as early as 2015 reading reports in the NYT about Russian meddling in our upcoming election. Why our government did not call Putin out or allowed them to do their dirty work, is beyond me.
15
@Pepperman
Why? Because Mitch McConnell threatened Obama. McConnell said that If Obama went public with any implication that the Russians were affecting the election, or God forbid that the Trump campaign might be collaborating with them, he would attack Obama and Clinton as using a political ploy to win the election and would suggest that Obama personally was trying to rig the election for Clinton. That’s why you didn’t hear much about it. Because McConnell played as ugly as you can get, and as the Republicans have been winning almost every battle in the last 40 years in their march toward single-party authoritarian rule, they won that one too. Obama gave in. This, by the way, was reported. From McConnell: no comment. And that’s why the republic is about to be yanked off life support and die. All the battles have been won and the war is over. They started the war, and they won it.
2
@Pepperman - Because in 2015, and today for that matter, politics were so poisonous that any attempts by Obama to call out Russian meddling would have been viewed by Republicans as Obama unfairly putting his thumb on elections.
Ironically, now some Republicans love to cite the fact that Obama allowed Russia to hack our elections when they know full well their heads would've exploded with outrage had Obama done anything to call out how Russia was meddling in our elections and supporting Trump in the months leading up to the election.
2
And in the end, the Russians win. Wouldn't that be a plot twist?
6
@John Doe
. . . . and not a good one.
Putin already won.
The problem is Russia's strategy aligns with right-wings in many western countries, including the U.S.. Although people have learned better, in the immediate aftermath of Trump's election, it was common to hear "if Russia helped get him elected, that's great." This isn't a liberal-conservative thing. Only those on the far left or right say stuff like that. Because the Republican party has moved so far to the right, it now aligns with Le Pen, Farage, and other European neo-fascists. Which align with Putin's Russia. Of course Russia can meddle, they're working with 5th columns who claim to be nationalists.
25
Absolutely CORRECT analysis.
@Brian
The MSM, and the NYTimes is part of that entity, produces plenty of opinions dressed up as news, and a measly attempt at pure news. I consider everything the NYTimes publishes debatable and frequently incorrect, just the same as the fake news of the social media.
3
@Brian
The Russians are coming to get you! Hide your kids, hide your wife. Let's start up another red scare a la McCarthy, 50's style.
2
Of course, it is struggling. Combatting "Russian meddling" is a lot like witch hunting - no matter how many witches you catch there will always be more. The purpose here is not to defeat the witches/Russians but to remain vigilant - vigilance is good for the soul. And also a good business for some.
3
It is far less expensive to educate the people on fake news than trying to prevent cyber attacks on our democracy. There are national news papers and TV networks to get reliable information. However, they should shoulder the responsibility to filter out fake news. No need to browse for nonsense.
3
I would agree that election campaigns have always been about spreading propaganda that is, half truths and outright lies about the opposition and or key issues. It has also like the Russian efforts targeted specific subsets of voters with "hot button" appeals. Foreign countries should not, however, be permitted to participate in this process. Efforts in the USA should focus, as the Mueller investigation showed through analysis and indictments, on preventing foreign interference. It should also focus on restricting the captains of Social Media like Zuckerberg and others from tacitly allowing their platforms to be used by foreign powers.
9
@Speculator
"Efforts in the USA should focus...on preventing foreign interference."
Clearly, we have not made the price of interference high enough for our enemies.
What do you suggest we do that we have not already done to convince them to stop?
2
@waldo You must not have read the same Mueller report as me. It did not state the election outcome was not effected. It said such a quantification was not possible. In the same way a huge hurricane can't be attributed to climate change, yet we know there's some influence.
16
@waldo
If the outcome the election was not affected then all those companies that spend billions on advertising are doing it to waste their precious money. When you lose the popular vote by 3 million and still win through winning a few ley states by very few votes- of course it effected the election result. Are you saying that not one vote was not swayed by expert and focused advertising?
Please cite which exact page Mueller said it did not effect the results. Why would they do it if it would have no effect?
4
The history of modern technology is littered with the carcasses of poorly-conceived and overwrought systems. "Sounding the alarm", like some kind of air raid siren for malicious tweets? What is this, 1940? I suggest: treat this as a matter of automated classification, sampling, and reporting. We ought to be able to look at the results and say, "Last week there was a shift of such-and-such characteristics in the messaging to groups with such-and-such traits." This kind of thing, especially if the basic results were public, would increase the visibility of our collective online behavior, and it would improve our ability to take appropriate political action.
11
@Jonathan Rodriguez
And what is the form of "appropriate political action"? Send people to re-education camps if they have expressed the wrong opinions?
3
@Jonathan Rodriguez
Yes, It should not cost an arm and leg to put together an automated system of the type you are suggesting.
The problem is not cost or expertise but the lack of understanding of tech in our congress. How many of them have a computer scientist (not a political scientist) on staff. I'm guessing 0. Thanks for your comment.
1
When you say you are concerned about "foreign meddling", what you really mean, is that you want to control all speech, by making the United States into a carbon copy of the now defunct East German regimen.
Political parties don't lose elections because of propaganda - an election campaign is nothing but propaganda.
Elections are lost when you arrogantly dismiss the culture of whole regions of your country, and insist on trying to cram your culture down the throats of those you feel superior to.
In 2016 the problem wasn't Putin, Trump or the fictitious Trump/Putin. If was leaders in the Democratic party who were very bad listeners, and gave the American People a candidate who known to be widely hated.
We Democrats stabbed ourselves in the back - nobody sneaked up on us.
25
@Peter Zenger First, Clinton won by 3 million votes. Second, only 60% of people who could vote do - mainly because they're not registered. Third, the Electoral College reflects a systems out of whack, with urban areas systematically unrepresented. Fourth, the election turned on tens of thousands of votes in three states, all of them targeted by Russian disinformation.
The Sanders crowd's complaints about Clinton further demonstrate that Russia's disinformation is nothing new. Since 1993 Hillary Clinton was the target of smear campaigns, any one of which collapses under analysis, but the sum of which led many to view her as corrupt and unpalatable. It's a textbook example of hostile propaganda.
23
@Brian
If Clinton won by 3 million votes, why is the Democratic Party engaged a primary now? Why aren't we all just backing her for a second term?
You might want to do a fact check on your assertion that Clinton won by 3 million votes.
I agree that Clinton has been under fire since 1993, but I don't think that could have been the work of a Trump/Putin cabal, since Trump was, a that time, just another thieving Real Estate Developer, and not engaged in running for any office.
As for your reference to "hostile propaganda", you have me at a disadvantage, because I am unaware of any other type of propaganda. Certainly, there is no shortage of venom when our candidates address each other on the debate stage.
As for the view of Clinton being "corrupt and unpalatable", setting up and an International Slush Fund to monetize the Secretary of State position, played no small part in creating that perception of her - she wears that cap because it fits her well.
1
@Peter Zenger
I think the whole argument about elitist Democrats not listening is bogus. Democrats stand for equality and for fair opportunities. Republicans stand for white rich, conservative Christians. The reason why Democrats don’t do well in red states is a matter of marketing. They haven’t done a good job in pointing out the differences between the parties and have been afraid to stress the positive aspects of liberalism. Republicans always try to brand Democrats as socialists. Democrats need to do a better job of explaining why that is a false argument.
1
It is up to the modern political candidate to handle foreign meddling by, for example, "red-baiting" an opponent who repeats Russian propaganda. Anyone who plays the victim card in this instance will get no sympathy from me. And anyone who (directly or indirectly) pays a foreign national to create "kompromat" will get less than no sympathy from me.
3
@Jeff, even when they don't use said "kompromat"?
Europeans are well known for their incompetence and letting the USA solve the problems. ISAF (NATO) in Afghanistan every single day had all its flags half-mast, which meant that American soldiers got killed. The Europeans were too busy playing volleyball, drinking alcohol, phoning Mom, and going back home after 3 months. For them to outsmart Putin is a joke.
5
@rudolf
Actually, some European countries lost more soldiers, given the size of their deployment, than the US. The UK lost about 1/4 as many, but deployed 1/10 the number. France lost 88, out of 4,000 personnel. The US lost 2,313, and all told, Europe around 1,000. I don't know where you're coming from.
15
@rudolf
I guess you where there yourself and now finally go public with your findings?
Aside from the fact that your topic is “off topic”, I wish to thank you for seeing this golden opportunity to enlighten your fellow Americans who know very little about those deceitful actions of your allies.
5
@rudolf
Is fighting in Afghanistan and pouring trillions of dollars in that country supposed to "outsmart" Putin?
What problems has the US solved in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya?
Besides the fact that those countries had infrastructure and there weren't terrorist bombings every day? That there weren't millions of refugees pouring into Europe?
7
I listened to Ash Carter interviewed on Pod Save America yesterday. We know what and how to do (for Christ’s sakes with the money we spend we had better know), the question is: can they ignore or placate the idiot running the country and do it.
We are coasting on inertia, the damage Trump is doing has not yet impacted critical systems, but we can’t go on like this forever, at some point the lack of leadership, corruption and incompetence is going to be felt.
23
You call this a Red Scare? Now Joe McCarthy, he knew how to do a proper Red Scare.
6
Does the Russian breast swell with pride upon contemplating that the most conspicuous contribution of Russia to world culture nowadays is disinformation? What kind of people are they’re?
9
They definitely have a good laugh to see all these western supporters of free speech shaking in their boots over few comments on Facebook.
1
@yulia
Yes, I can readily believe that Russians laugh as their intelligence agencies wage sustained campaigns of disinformation warfare all over Europe and the United States. That’s the Russian soul, Yulia from “MO.”
At least the European Union is trying, which is not easy with 28 states. We have one, which makes it much easier--and are not trying at all, despite the unanimous verdict of all American intelligence agencies.
Why? Because our narcissistic, traitorous leader thinks it benefits him. With a president who thinks checks and balances is a joke and always sides with our enemies, time to get out of denial and kiss democracy goodbye.
BTW, where are the Democrats screaming bloody murder? Oh right, they're busy debating whether to give illegal immigrants Medicare benefits and not allow anyone private health care.
Hey, it was nice while it lasted.
16
How do you fight the Russian meddling when the President is in on it?
39
Russian meddling has consisted mostly of a disinformation campaign. Of course, the Russians are not the only source of disinformation, be it foreign or domestic. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech, including dissemination of political propaganda and disinformation. This protection applies to both US citizens as well as foreigners under the jurisdiction of the USA. Freedom of speech also applies to the right to obtain information (including disinformation) from foreign sources. There are some interesting articles in law journals on "the right to receive foreign speech".
9
@Christopher Arend
Disinformation about what? Letting you read the real private emails and speeches that were never supposed to see the light of day?
2
@Christopher Arend The meddling also consisted of hacking the servers on American soil, obtaining politically sensitive documents and releasing them at a critical point of the campaign. Most likely in coordination with the campaign's operatives. These are not activities covered by "freedom of speech". I also doubt that the 1. Amendment was ever intended to protect spreading deliberate falsehoods. Your implying that Russian meddling was nothing but making use of constitutional freedoms is nonsense.
@Christopher Arend The meddling also consisted of hacking the servers on American soil, obtaining politically sensitive documents and releasing them at a critical point of the campaign. Most likely in coordination with the campaign's operatives. These are not activities covered by "freedom of speech". I also doubt that the 1. Amendment was ever intended to protect spreading deliberate falsehoods. Your implying that Russian meddling was nothing but making use of constitutional freedoms is nonsense.
The United States has been unable to counter foreign meddling in our elections because of trumpism. Mitchell McConnell blocked Obama administration attempts to draw bipartisan attention to the issue. Once he had the republican nomination locked up, Trump has been and continues to be a public advocate for Russian interference in our elections. His 2020 campaign manager has already announced to the world the list of states where foreign propaganda will be appreciated.
Imagine the howling if the EU had called out Nigel Farrage and Boris Johnson for lying during the Brexit referendum campaign.
6
why can't governments just block anything coming in and out russia.. just completely ban firewall all of Russia from the Internet by blocking any access from that country.. Ridiculous at this Modern computing age governments can't seem to do that.
3
@Erick
There's this little issue called freedom of speech, which Americans are entitled to, no matter where it comes from.
8
@Barbara. Your point of view would stand to weaken democracy rather than support it. The notion of that we would lose anything through regulation of state-directed propaganda, disseminated through bots posing as humans, is a bridge too far. That sort of regulation would not be a loss of any entitlement.
@GenXBK293
I am not suggesting we allow bots to take over. I am answering the question of why it is difficult to block everything from Russia and China.
1
McConnell controls the Senate. McConnell wants Trump to win. McConnell won’t even allow the Senate to consider legislation aimed at stopping or limiting Russian interference. Connect the dots. McConnell is a bigger threat to fair elections than Putin.
65
Europe's Rapid Alert System seems to be just another form of 'propaganda law': a public law enacted to make a political statement, but is converted to propaganda when it fails to be enforced.
3
Why wouldn't Russia want to mess us up? We've shown nothing but hostility to it, hostility that went way beyond the Cold War. What is NATO, but an alliance against it? Clinton promised them that we wouldn't invite the former satellites to join it, but--as per usual--he lied. Hillary meddled around in Ukraine and openly supported insurrection against the pro-Russian government and then we punished Russia cruelly for his take over of Crimea, like we care about Crimea, like we even know where it is! So, without exonerating the miserable Putin and his outrageous election-meddling, let us not be sanctimonious about it, in all the US duplicity and lack of historical understanding!
9
@perry Can this really be the kind of sentiment easily found in the US? The ritual claim that Clintons lie, that Hillary was behind the color revolutions, that Crimea was Russia's? An argument stating that, if America has done bad things, we deserve bad things to us? Or is this a sentiment from somewhere else.
So if our “chosen” candidate wins will we hear the end of “Russia meddling”?
Seems all our constant demonization of Russia has accomplished is pushing Russia and China close together.
14
@e.s. No we won't. That's where the right-wing in the US is different. Just because they invite foreign influence doesn't mean the other side does.
2
Trump is even more of a threat to America than Russia is.
He is a clear and present danger.
5
The overarching problem of creating a “fake news” filter that would have “filtered out” public knowledge of Madam’s hacked emails is that those hacked emails were real.
So it goes.
9
Well Brexit was heavily influenced by foreign intervention. Steve Bannon, Murdoch and the US Republicans. Thanks fellers, they showed the Russians how to do it properly.
6
@MH
Throw in Brad Parscale to your list.
1
No system works first time right. Most of the time it's the Americans who start experimenting with new ideas. And once they have tried, failed, and rebuilt many times, they are ahead.
Give Europe some credit it started this process first this time.
4
Wait, how many Americans are living in Russia? At the very least there is our Embassy and more than likely some American companies for sure there are some European companies there. Could these Americans or Europeans be posting on Facebook or other venues? Seriously there is enough questionable information coming from our own or European sources to be so worried about Russia IMO.
3
Surprising that so many comments seem to shrug off Russian election meddling, or even justify it. Who are these people, Russians? If a foreign entity is meddling in another country's election (or politics in general), maybe the potential US political beneficiary of the meddling should be given a well-advertised opportunity to reject and/or disown any help. And maybe the US government should form a commission similar to Europe's, and be the solicitor and arbiter of the politician's rejection of foreign help. And while we're at it, maybe we enlist the justice department to take sworn statements, ahead of the election, regarding the candidate's interest in any foreign help
16
@mick domenick I'm thinking the same thing. Many of these comments repeat the same talking points, a lot have peculiar handles, strange grammar. If they're not foreign, it shows how difficult it is when a right-wing aligns itself with a foreign influencer.
Donald has already said he'd take help from the Russians. What makes anyone think "alerts" will matter to his fans? The world is already divided into those who care about the truth, and those who don't.
9
It takes leadership from the USA against Russian cyber warfare and disinformation. Unfortunately, we do not have that kind of leadership at this moment.
16
Trouble with the system? Pity Maybe they should ask us for advice. After all, nobody is better at meddling in the political affairs of other countries than we are.
31
What makes you think the US has any plans to thwart Russian interference?
6
Russia was emboldened by Obama who refused to provide Ukrainians with our anti tank missiles despite Congress passing a bipartisan bill authorizing the sale. Obama also refused to enforce his own red line against Russia’s ally Assad. So to the extent there was election interference, you can blame Obama for it.
In contrast, Trump authorized and provided those very anti tank missiles to Ukraine to defend Europe against the Russian invasion. In contrast, Trump hit Assad twice with barrages of cruise missiles. In fact, Trump killed hundreds of Russian soldiers posing as mercenaries in Syria in a battle that involved many of our bombers and fighter jets.
Dems talk the talk but Trump is the only one who has walked the walk with respect to Russia.
6
@Jay Lincoln
Trump has walked the walk—except when it comes to acknowledging Russian interference in other countries’ elections, including our own 2016 election.
1
Russia might be less likely to send there troops and equipment into Ukraine, but their disinformation and propaganda are like breathing to them. They will do it because it’s their normal way of behaving.
1
Well with a president who doesn't understand the value of NATO, and who knows he benefits from Russian interference, we'll just have to wait to see if sanity and common sense prevail in DC in 2020. Which is as sound an explanation as any as to why Trump has a chance to be re-elected.
2
Simple solution for voters.
Ignore all media, TV, Internet and make the decision of who to vote for based on the official televised debates.
Vote for who you think is the best candidate for you and you only. Don’t even try to influence other family members, friends and co-workers.
It’s that simple.
8
No one but the media should waste time and money trying to disprove misinformation. It happens all the time everywhere. Almost all politicians lie some of the time. The media are supported mostly by advertisers who misrepresent their product all the time. Social media should come with a way to identify and call out source misrepresentation and leave at that. Anything more is censorship.
6
@Jim Linnane This is not about "misinformation."
This sounds almost like a spinoff of Bush’s weekly terrorist threat levels complete with news alerts and color codes. The more “Russian” an opinion seems, the closer to red the alert gets.
Why don’t they do something else, like perhaps consider a different stance? Maybe appeal across the aisle?
To me this sounds like an entrenched bureaucracy struggling to explain how or why people would be voting against continuing decades of globalist and pro corporate policies. Surely it must be the Russians.
17
This effort is going to have to be multi-pronged. One of the prongs must be moral persuasion. Who in Russian government has a combination of moral integrity and power?
Since at least five years, Russia has meddled in French elections by wide spreading false or biased information on Facebook. Much of it was so obvious that no expert skills were needed for detecting it: A search engine and little ingenuity were enough to find the Russian origin of the Facebook posts. I did it a couple of time after acquaintances told me strange stories.
6
Don't give up. Fight for democracy. It's worth it.
2
Western Europe has a long history of neglecting to deal with its threats.
2
They do what they do; we do what we do: it doesn't matter. What matters is the Boy Scout motto; "Always be prepared.
The R.A.S. is quite simply bad systems engineering, based on unvetted intuition. It "feels like" gathering data about Russian media usage will give us an ability to respond, uh, rapidly with alerts.
But even in the U.S., no one can tie Russian interference with the results of the 2016 election. We issue our own politically correct response, that the Russians interfered, but they had no effect,
It's an irony that McLuhan's poorly reasoned adage, that, "the medium is the massage" is today applicable to social media. Social media lends itself to Russian interference because its devotees rely on it to get information. And to block it would be, well, to restrict free speech.
Maybe democracies can't survive. They are based on intelligent electorates. This brave new world depends on having the capability of citizens to be highly skeptical of what they see on social media.
But then, skepticism is an anathema to the profits of social media tech companies. They don't want to have to try to explain to an intelligent user base why their basic business model is both to communicate false information along with the truth, and leave it up to the user to know the difference. That is, "Twitter: caveat emptor".
The best that the R.A,S. can do is remind us that we live in a time that is dangerous to our democracies, and that we need to educate our citizens about the use of media. People laughed at Mike Dukakis's "computer literacy" platform, but he was right.
3
A shame that Europe doesn't have a consistent ally across the Atlantic any more. The US and Europe should have been working together to combat Russian influence, but since Putin won the Whitehouse, one of the most powerful alliances in history is crumbling.
7
It is alarming that so many governments do little to combat rampant disinformation under the guise of protecting free speech. It is especially insidious in far right governments & ideologies as they tend to use disinformation the most and often very effectively; their supporters tend to read less and educate themselves to a lesser degree than left-leaning governments and individuals, hence, the rise of totalitarian regimes and bullies like Trump.
The USA will do little on an official level if Trump & his sycophants believe Russian meddling will assist them in their quest for power, ego boosting and dominance.
What we need are more intelligent voters and more of them, unfortunately, I don't know if that is going to happen in time to save the US from 4 more years of Trump and Europe from sliding back into fascism. Ordinary working people are often too busy trying to make ends meet to do the hard work necessary to ensure our democracy thrives.
4
This article has no technical or policy details.
"... European analysts spotted suspicious Twitter accounts pushing disinformation about an Austrian political scandal."
How did the "analysts" "spot" the alleged "disinformation"? Did they have any technical support from Twitter?
"... they debated whether it was serious enough to justify sounding an alarm."
What does the policy say? Isn't there a Rapid Alert System document stating what is "serious enough"?
"They are prohibited from calling out or debunking propaganda produced by European websites or media, a limitation that is intended to guard against creeping infringements on free speech."
Where, precisely, is that "prohibition" stated? And what recourse do sources have if they are wrongly "called out"? Is there any due process?
6
People who primarily rely on social media for their information about candidates, are taking the easy out or are just plain intellectually lazy. Those who want to influence our elections with fake news and websites rely on voter laziness.
10
What's really troubling is why a "super power" would waste its vast resources- educational, cultural, religious...on interfering with other countries in every possible manner, not the least of which tampering with elections. Talk about a lack of imagination and squandering the intellectual and artistic capabilities of a nation. It seems that Russia, once a proud, culturally diverse and intellectually curious country, now desires to concentrate its might on causing trouble for other peoples and countries, generally unprovoked. What a mindset. What a shame.
3
Vast resources? I've heard it is pretty cheap to post several comments, especially when the audience is so receptive. Really, it is low-hanging fruit.
1
Russia will continue to get away with its influence peddling as long as it is doing it on the part of the nationalist right wing parties and billionaires who don't want any accountability to their respective countries. The money and the hunger for power will take any help they can get no matter the cost.
3
You know how there is no politicking 75 feet close to a polling station? Maybe we should have no political ads (on all media platforms) for the last two weeks before election day, so we can digest all the propaganda forced on us for months on end.
Citizens wouldn't be whipped into a frenzy and have the opportunity to reflect (a bold idea) on the candidates and their platforms.
67
@Michael Piscopiello, you mean sit with our eyes and ears locked solely onto either Fox or MSNBC for the last two weeks leading up to the election? Good idea, very objective.
That’s very reasonable. Unfortunately our constitution would probably not allow it. I think it works in other countries in Europe, but it just has no chance of happening here.
Hopefully (in the Dreamland in my head, IK!), when the winds shift and all of the Good Witches of the West get together and have a proper confab about our Red Neighbor, they'll see they're on the same page once again and pen a load of sanctions that will bleed the Bear into submission like the weakling all bullies are.
13
We gasp and express shock at any Russian election propaganda. Let’s not forget what the US began in 1949 - Radio Free Europe. Hypocrisy - a most common affliction in the US...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty
Continues to this day - $120M budget!
16
The history of Russia attempting to disrupt other societies since the October Revolution has never been equaled by any non-fascist state, including the U.S. and the European imperialists. Russia has been in a mind set of fear of the rest of the world for all of that time for different reasons but with equivalent distrust. The Bolsheviks were under attack by capitalist states for years, and they hoped to create conditions for other rebellions. Then they gained territory and power from defeating Germany and raised their efforts to spread disorder because they felt powerful and dreamed of creating a new world order. Then their system failed and collapsed and their attempts to rise up into a new order led to a corrupt and inept one. Now they struggle to create disruption in hopes of making all others too confused to threaten them. Russia is humanity in a state of want and confusion.
3
Are you OK with governments that wants to dismantle the West -- including the US -- being allowed to influence elections? You can play at being superior and above it all or you can face reality and acknowledge what's at stake. Like it or not it affects you.
@Peter Lauer also let’s not forget Obama’s blatant attempts to meddle in Israeli elections.
2
The story raises questions on the appropriate measures to use to combat cyber crime. State cyber attacks and illicit cyber criminal activity are the two main platforms. Each requires a different approach to resolution.
The private entrepreneurs that hijack state and corporate databases and threaten to destroy data stores unless they are paid a ransom requires a literate cyber command probing the dark recesses of the Internet for cyber criminals and laws that deal with the nuances of evidence that is digital (virtual) and may not fit the "beyond doubt" characteristic that criminal trials warrant.
State sponsored cyber crimes need to be resolved using search and destroy cyber attacks and corresponding economic sanctions to reduce the flow of data processing platforms to unidentified agent-provocateurs that engage in cyber attacks for illicit gains.
Eventually, the smart folks who develop scripts that cause havoc to private, public commercial and state systems, especially in advance of a planned military attack, require top priority.
ICANN and block-chain programming with A.I. screening of suspected attacks are currently the best 'secret sauce' to defeat opportunist criminals and state sponsored cyber warfare agencies.
What appears lacking is the will of nation states that are most vulnerable and commercial enterprises willing to pay extortion fees. Most large private and public corporations would pay and deduct, as a business expense, to avoid further litigation.
6
What concerns me the most is not the social media aspect, nearly as much as the strong possibility of "proactive meddling". For example, people showing up at political events who truly "don't belong" (Russian citizens or sympathizers) in a typical sense. I know this is a broadly termed, but there it is. We have already had reports of this type of thing before; during the mid-term elections, various rallies and other events like protests at mass shooting sites, white power rallies, etc. I am pretty sure some were proven, as in people were arrested for doing this. Whatever the case is, I am very concerned about it happening again.
16
It's not practical to issue alerts whenever they find Russian-sourced disinformation. There's too much of it, and people would come to hate the alerts and discount them. Perhaps there could be a point to issuing bulletins on a regular basis of the sorts of arguments being used by outside propagandists, with an indication of their source? One more example of asymmetrical warfare.
19
but did europe ever manage to fight off american interference in their elections? i don't think so.
20
How do they know that any piece of Russian disinformation, agitation, and propaganda is not just some of the same by people in their own counties? They would not until they investigate and confirm from who it comes. The idea of an alert system is kind of disconnected from reality. The lies and agitation will already have been distributed by the time anyone knows it. They can respond to these acts and report them as they find them, but people listening and learning to be skeptical of possible Russian trouble making is kind of like vaccinating against viruses, they need to learn to recognize it.
3
Trump said there was no interference, no tampering thus there was no risk to our election's results........
Believe that, believe Trump at your, at our democracy's risk......
89
KGB-trained Putin is using his FSB, GRU internet tools Trump asset to crush America's power. Putin is winning big.
Trump demands tanks and orders that other pieces of 20th century war fighting equipment be put on display while he stands behind a rain streaked sheet of plastic and extols the virtues of a 20th century order of battle. In the meantime, the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, various African tribes and a 400 pound Jersey resident are squarely targeting our 2020 election, the power grid, NORAD, and America’s ability to respond to any form of conventional or unconventional strike. The simple fact is, a kid sitting in front of a computer console, with the right equipment to work with, could send that $20B B2 anyplace in the world, or keep it from even leaving Whiteman. And there aren’t any kids working for the GRU.
18
@JRB
Just a touch of hyperbole, there. I've been in advanced software development for decades. Our most critical military systems do not use the internet, at all. For example: The missile silos are handled locally, and authorization for use is based upon hard-wired communications. And precisely how would you interfere with the C&C of a B2? It's in satellite-based communications with its ops center, using military satellites with zero connection to public services.
Our power grids are another matter, but North Korea (and others) have probed them for years, gotten nowhere.
Such fear-mongering actually makes me wonder about you. Exactly the kind of propaganda a foreign operative would use . . .
6
Immediate exposure should be a very effective response to secretive meddling.
That would turn the meddling against itself. It could then influence only people (if any) already inclined to agree with the meddler, and they are by definition already convinced without the meddling, already a lost cause. Today, where Russia meddles, its very name is poison. Hence, exposure would be more effective.
While it would be ideal if Russia did not make such efforts at all, it would be enough to have an effective response.
The limitation is that exposure only works with false "facts" used to meddle. If the meddling is to reveal truth of lies that the domestic parties are telling voters, then exposure doesn't work. In fact, exposure of such lies might well boost Russia's dismal image. Unless of course it becomes politically correct to ignore the truth and rally behind the lies.
10
The first step is to ID the origin of Ads - They are bought so the issue is with Facebook & Google and others. A lot of Russian posting is to stir the pot and polarize, the content may not seem political. The next step is to find the fake users. Mueller's investigations resulted in 12 or so indictments, so it's doable. Once the posters are found it's easier to understand the goal and counteract it.
Safeguarding the election machinery should be simple - but our President and Mitch McConnell are making it impossible. In my book they are traitors.
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@Saint999 They don't need to buy ads to make inflammatory phony stories (or even stories with a grain of truth) go viral. The audience willing to share this material is vast.
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@Saint999-One of the first pieces of legislations the Pelosi-led U.S. House of Reps passed in January was the “For the People” Anti-Corruption Bill". Among its provisions:
- Require Facebook, Google (etc.) to set up public databases cataloging political ad purchase requests of $500 or more and create new measures to block ad buys by foreign nationals.
- Expand laws regulating foreign & domestic lobbying and prohibitions on foreign political money
- Mandate the disclosure of the big donors behind politically active 501(c)(4) "social welfare" orgs.
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/05/682286587/house-democrats-introduce-anti-corruption-bill-as-symbolic-first-act
IMHO, the only solution is massive cyber retaliation – (particularly from USA) -Russians will keep on doing it. The rewards are enormous.
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I think it is a great idea. Let's see how much influence the US Europe have on Russian election.
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The intelligence agencies of the EU are pretty smart so they must have the IP addresses of the Russians doing this. Are they afraid to drop some malware into their systems and fry all their computers? Why don't they go for a massive takedown of the hackers systems. In this situation it should be fight fire with fire. If Putin insists the government has no control over these people, fine, take them down. Maybe ask the NSA to help them empty Putin's bank accounts and blame it on some Georgian hackers.
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@markd
For the same reason that we generally do not assassinate each others leaders. Retaliation would be swift and severe.
It is one thing to freeze assets. Those frozen understand they may get their assets back. Ask Iran. A pariah nation just had to wait.
Emptying a bank account is another story entirely. Putin would quickly find out it was not Georgian hackers. Are you ready to do without air conditioning all summer when Russia retaliates by taking our power grid down?
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@markd This is probably why Trump is so "hands off" when it comes to Putin. Trump is his puppet for reasons yet to be uncovered. I would bet my last dollar that Putin gives his lessons in "propaganda strategy" to Trump in those secret meetings. It is imperative for Trump to stop the CIA, NSA and the FBI from interfering in Putin's master plan.
Yeah, but first they need to find Putin's accounts.
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Making a mountain out of a molehill. Russia is not all the powerful. Just start a cyber war if Europe thinks that Russia is meddling.
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Trump has said he would accept help from a foreign govt to win his re-election bid and Putin will surely help his good buddy Don to weaken our democracy and keep Don out of jail. THe republicans are trying hard to establish one party rule with gerrymandering,Citizens United ,ending voting rights efforts and now adding a census question to help white republicans win elections. Trump with his dictatorial leanings exposed in his hijacking of our July 4th holiday proves he is the one to cement one party rule GOP under Trump, McConnell and Barr who are ready to declare an elections that Trump loses as a fraud and void it allowing the Supreme Court to declare Trump President for life 5 to 4 the republican way.
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..be afraid!
...be very afraid!!
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Citizens United is a propaganda fraud financed by billionaire Rbt. Mercer who financed right-wing groups,
It is impossible to build such a system without eliminating free speech as is in our constitution. What you can do is educate people as much as possible to identify biased and foolish stuff. I see it all the time, in this News Paper, on the internet, in commercials, in headlines. Nothing will eliminate that, and after all Obama attempted to influence elections in say Israel so his and his party are not clean either.
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@vulcanalex
It's "Obama", not 0bama. . . There's a subtle, yet important difference.
*newspaper, as well. . .
It's difficult to define and fight against "disinformation," and "interfering with foreign elections," since that's exactly what the US does, through institutions like the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, and before them, the CIA.
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/03/trump-national-endowment-democracy-foreign-policy
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/coup-connection/
I'd suggest the following operational definition:
When the Russians do it, it's "disinformation."
When we do it, it's the "free exchange of ideas."
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The lead says "......Its a lesson to the U.S. and others". The U.S. doesn't care; in fact the Trump Administration/Republican Party are looking forward to more Russian interference.
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@Ann Marie: your post is the Post of Day! Precisely said.
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So the entire EU cant come up with a system to battle Russian interference but they expect and want Facebook to do it for them lol
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Dead Souls in the EU?
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@Joan In California
Appreciate the Gogol analogy!
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@Joan In California
Rudy the Beekeeper would be proud.
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We need to meddle in Russia using everything we learned they did to us. In a nutshell we need to use their weaponize tecniques to our advantage. Simultaneously all governments should have a shoot down rule in their military if Russia goes within 25 feet of any military craft whether American or European. Out fox the punk who murders his people and allows china access to Russian land, And fresh drinking water to be transported to China perhaps Russian people will stand up to the devil.
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