Dear New York Times,
Since December, the protesters in Sudan have asked the world for only one thing: That we bear witness to, and shine a spotlight on, their struggle for democracy. And the world could do that in exactly one way: by our newspapers of record putting their struggle on their front pages, so that, in the words of our protesters in the Vietnam War era, "The whole world's watching."
122 Sudanese have been killed by military guns pointed at them in the protests. People have been raped, and to borrow from Barry McGuire, Even the Nile river has bodies floatin'.
They're out there today. Maybe not in the numbers as in Hong Kong, but facing much greater danger. You go on about the U.S. weaponry in use by the GCC in Yemen, UAE is giving aid to their opponent, General Hamdan - a.k.a. Hemeti, the former head of the Janjaweed in the genocide in Darfur.
On the front page, please. It's a far larger issue in the discussion of whether black lives matter than who said the word 'boy' in the presidential campaigns.
On the front page. Now. While it still matters.
How will the world react when China accelerates the reintegration of Hong Kong?
3
Can we be more careful with our word choice? Defacing a building is not violence. A building is not a living thing. A headline like “Carrie Lam condemns violence” plays right into the hands of authoritarians. Where was her condemnation of violence when protesters were getting beaten by police?
3
Spray painting a building is not a form of "violence".
The NYT should not let Lam or Beijing get away with equating non-violent protest, even if it is destructive of property, with violent protest. Destructive protest may deserve punishment, but non-violent protest does not justify violent suppression.
4
Now it's getting interesting. The protesters have made a strategic error. Understandable, they're frustrated, but one of their strengths up to now has been their discipline. Quiet strength can be effective against a government that is constrained from using force to fight it. Now, not so much. I doubt there will be a repeat of Tiananmen. There was no internet or cell phones then, so the world wasn't watching. But the little bit of violence has made a fool of Lam and opened up some options for her handlers in Beijing. Very bad move. China is a culture that values order and threats to order are not going to go down well. Still, much remains to be seen. This won't be resolved real soon.
2
Beijing probably sent their agents to infiltrate the Hong Kong protestors to stir up violence to give the government the excuse to crack down. Chinese Communists highly value public order and will do most anything to maintain it, even violence.
1
"Protesters had mostly cleared out of the Legislative Council building after three hours of occupation. Then a cordon of riot police used tear gas and charged to scatter the crowd." The journalists make it sound here like the police illegitimately used tear gas since the protesters had already left the LegCo!
"The broad public anger has already forced Mrs. Lam to suspend the proposed legislation, but demonstrators want it to be fully withdrawn and have also turned their scrutiny on the police, whom they say acted with excessive force in dispersing a June 12 protest. Many protesters are also demanding Mrs. Lam’s resignation." And here it sounds like, the Government having fallen short of answering ALL of the protesters' demands, the rioters are entitled to fight for whatever they want in whichever way!
I find that the side is a little too obviously taken by this journal's reporters. For my part, I find the attacks on Hong Kong's legislature yesterday are despicable and are disobedience in its most extreme form but without a hint of of civic sense.
I am appalled by the methods now used by the protesters that greatly affect large sections of the population here in HK. It is intolerable to witness "yellow vests" desecrate the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, and so it is to witness the "black shirts" do the same with HK's parliament. Which Western country would allow this to happen unpunished? Macron certainly didn't and Carrie Lam definitely ought not to.
The people of Hong Kong shouldn’t stop the protests until Carrie Lam resigns and a democratically elected representative is selected by the people However, destruction of property is not constructive. It will give the mainland an excuse to use brutal force and crush the people’s will.
2
At ease. Beijing will not interfere. Hong Kong people has been given 50 years to ruin Hong Kong and I don't think they would need that long.
Lam MUST resign!
4
Most of us in the USA don't really care what is happening in China. As tough as this sounds, it is the truth.
3
@Philip W
Only when it affects your I-Phones, but those aren't made in Hong Kong.
1
Please stay safe, HK. I worry this will end in bloodshed and death.
5
If only Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbin and Theresa May from the nation they idolize were their leaders, no doubt all their problems would be solved.(sarcasm intended).
2
"All the world over, so easy to see
People everywhere just wanna be free
Listen, please listen, that's the way it should be". Little rascals.
2
I recall the " crowds ' of protestors in the streets of Iran who suffered the bullets of government snipers who shot them when huge numbers of protestors demonstrated in the streets of Tehran against the government .
So far it appears Xi Jinping has resisted shooting protesters.
Lets hope he continues to keep hands off the present protests .
It is time for the protesters to discover the power of photographs and begin to photograph all harsh treatment
against them by sending photographs to the internet and the world press.
3
@Neil
I recall when National Guard troops opened fire on college students at Kent State University with 30-06 high powered military rifles.
1
Lemmings running to the cliff edge.
GO HONG KONGERS! You have fought for your freedom since 1997 when you were promised to have the same rights when you were set free from British imperialism to China's communism hand. As someone who comes from a similar background, I think that these people are fight for rights just as the United States has for freedom against a country they are tied to. July 1st especially is a day of significant for those who understand the history behind this day where Hong Kong was set free and given into the Chinese government's hands. The Extradition law is the cause for the demonstrations, but the real cause is the frustrations of Hong Kong youth who don't see a bright or any future for themselves. They know their counterparts on the mainland are harder working, more ambitious and willing to struggle to achieve their goals. They strive for their freedom.
2
And many mainland Chinese citizens (subjects?) complain that the protestors are choosing individual liberties over economic prosperity for all. Seems the democrat party of the US has taken a similar line. Inalienable rights are no longer inalienable here in the USA. I applaud the Hong Kong protesters. You are a dwindling beacon of freedom in a world where centralized, controlling and oppressive governments are the norm. We will soon become like Chinese Commie land if a democrat is elected president.
6
@recotax, I think you have it backwards. Lack of freedom comes from the draconian ways the GOP has slowly eroded our freedom to make our own choices, from a women’s right to choose, worshiping the way we want, having an open mind and open hearts to others. Xenophobia seems to be the how this administration governs. The Democratic Party has a history of fighting for the little guy, fighting for small business, and fighting fascism and communism. We currently have a party in charge of the senate and the executive branch that doesn’t care that our last presidential election and perhaps the next one have been compromised by the Russians and their former KGB officers in charge.
3
If you feel like drawing comparisons to China, let’s start with a president who has demonized the free press and called them traitors and enemies of the state. That sounds much more like the Chinese leadership than anything I have heard from Democrats. Lets follow that up with his assault on science and reproductive rights. Lastly, he wants to ban Muslims, which echoes the Chinese treatment of the Uighurs. All much more direct analogies than your fantasies about Democrats taking away rights.
4
Extradition law is the cause for the demonstrations, but the real cause is the frustrations of Hong Kong youth who don't see a bright or any future for themselves. They know their counterparts on the mainland are harder working, more ambitious and willing to struggle to achieve their goals. They are hungry for success but are the young people of HK equally hungry?
44
@Elizabeth Wong What the youth of Hong Kong see is China taking over Hong Kong completely and they really won't have a future...for real, not just thinking about it.
85
@Elizabeth Wong
The youth of Hong Kong are fighting for freedoms that they have always known. That is why the women in China travel en masse to Hong Kong to have their children, because the economy is better and the rights of people there are stronger.
72
@Elizabeth Wong Wondering why this is not seen as the now nearly worldwide need to protect democracy wherever it exists?
12
Democracy is clearly under attack worldwide, by various systems of repressions all linked by an authoritarian figure at the top, and compromised institutions willing to look the other way or even join in. Sadly, we in the US are no different.
Gerrymandering—picking your voters—is not so very different from the CCP picking candidates for mayor etc in Hong Kong, rather than the citizens.
It is always encouraging to see when protest (hopefully peaceful) erupts. We really are all in this together.
447
@Paul McGlasson Gerrymandering by both Repubs & Dems has been going on for something since the early 19th Century. Somehow the Dems think its an evil Republican invention. "The term is named after Elbridge Gerry, who, as Governor of Massachusetts in 1812, signed a bill that created a partisan district in the Boston area that was compared to the shape of a mythological salamander." In fact, it even goes back earlier to Patrick Henry, who tried to keep Madison out, so since it was around before the Republican Party existed, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Dems practiced it long before the Repubs. It's only recently that the Dems have not controlled the House as much as they used to, they the Dems are now crying foul. It's nice when you are in power, not so nice when you are out. The Democrats have controlled Congress 58 times, to the Repubs 36, so Gerrymandering has worked better for them. They are now simply trying to get the courts to help gerrymander for them.
10
Special interest such as billionaires defending their fortunes are at play. Brazil is a good example, the Koch brothers funding “grassroots” movements...
16
@Joe Paul is right. It is not the history of Gerrymandering (although that is interesting) but the fact that ANY political party can do it. Maybe if the USA had a 3 party system then people would not be so polarized? More compromises would be needed. Much harder to pass far L and far R legislation. Maybe Republican, Democrat and Peoples Vote?
3
There are only two questions about how this ends:
1. Will the number of protestors killed by the Chinese government exceed that from Tiananmen Square in 1989?
2. Will we ever know the actual number killed this time (which we still don't for Tiananmen Square)?
Get ready for a massacre.
9
HK Police had experience in suppressing protestors, they did it successfully in 1967 when they serve under British Government direct rule (via London appointed Governor). They should be able to do it again, now just under different ruler.
Tell me, what’s meaning of “peaceful” in ur dictionary? And how will you react when someone smashes your door, day after day?
4
Brave, persistent, and smart people in the streets. This, unfortunately, is what we here, in 'great America' might need to get listened to. We did it with the Vietnam War, why not protest this partisan bickering, oligarchy, corrupt, skewed and lying Washington mess? We the people...have we gotten too busy (making a living -- just like Marx said we would) or too lazy?
7
@Tao of Jane
Too busy with Facebook time.
2
I wish Americans had 1/100th of this kind of courage to protest. The profiteers, insurance companies and corporations would finally be cowed into a more responsible type of citizenship.
21
@Jeffrey Gillespie
Yes, many of the businesses in Hong Kong have already been bought off the Communists. It's up to the people in Hong Kong to stand up for their liberty.
This will be very difficult but our prayers are with them.
8
Hong Kong did it.
So can we!
Take back Washington!
Storm the White House!!
Power To, and For, the People!!
12
People OF China we pray for people in Hong Kong , China pray People tonight as Hong Kong Fly with Dragons and hearts fly well with you tonight may people be bless for freedom.
Did Americans stand with black lives matter and their protests (sometimes violent) or elect a president that demands “law and order”
Imagine the members of Sam Adams' Masonic group dressed in Indian disguises dumping the shipload of tea into Boston Harbor. Imagine facing the British at Concord. Fighting for freedom and independence is frightening and yet courageous. God's plan for humankind is above all that of freedom and love, not despotism and enslavement.
3
The people of Hong Kong ARE doing what we should be doing here in the United Stares. If we sit by with rhetoric as our only protest, we become complicit with the evil we see Trump doing.
We hear Hong Kong loud and clear. I wish the people of Hong Kong well. I wish them safe protests, with results. They certainly have gotten the attention of the world! The same wold that must be wondering who we are. Our protest against Trump has NO thunder. Printed words do not suffice in a time like this. Our outrage must be demonstrated to be heard.
4
Seriously! A crushing imperialistic power seeks to reclaim and reestablish it's iron rule on a territory it was forced to cede 100+ years ago and the media has no idea exactly what is happening. To be crude, "It ain't news JACK."
3
"Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again..."*
Celebrating your courage!
*Les Mis
3
They don't represent Hong Kong and that's a fact! This is a propaganda funded by the NED (Look at their black uniform, hard hats, designed placards, weapons, and tools...they ain't amateurs) and using gullible young adults to fight a cause they have no ideas what they are . HK people are free to travel, free to be educated anywhere in the world, free to buy all goods they need... aren't these freedom and democracy? For those who waved the Union Jack, HK was colonized, they need a lesson in history. IMO they are no better than terrorists carrying mayhems causing real hardworking HK people making a living. Stores were closed, and some HK people don't get pay. Haven't they thought about that. So please don't fan the fire and encourage them to continue such non-sense. This is exactly what their sponsors want: to make China lose face in the eyes of the world! Please you are sophisticated, look beyond the surface.
I think we can expect to see similar protests in China too! We can see everywhere nationalists rising to power and subjugating democracies and press. The people of Hong Kong give me hope!
1
Reminds me of the first months of the Arab Spring.
1
This is why I was always skeptical when the financial news media trumpeted the so-called BRIC countries several decades ago. Governments might be able to intervene to control and grow their economies to dizzying heights in the short term, but without the structural reforms needed to safeguard individual liberties, such growth is unlikely to persist over the long term. The people of Hong Kong know this and are acting accordingly.
5
I don't support violence, which only undermines the democratic process the protesters are seeking t protect.
From what has been developed so far, nothing warrants the need for violence. It endangers the public, the police and make the ultimate motives of the protest questionable.
1
Public opinion in HK has already started to turn against protesters. Marching peacefully is one thing, but ravaging the place is another. HK people need to understand that democracy does not mean tearing the place up. HK people should count themselves lucky. They enjoy multiple freedoms that the mainlanders do not have. Right now you have a clear example of why and how democracy would turn China in to chaos. HK had better settle down or else there will be loss of life and tanks of the street. The people storming the legislative building are not heroes, they are just vandals. If the government continues to be weak, mob rule will lead to anarchy. You cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time.
5
There will be international outcry if China starts taking a more brutal stance. Unfortunately, this looks like a Beijing infiltration of a peaceful demonstration to make it look more radical.
2
A few thoughts
1) If Ms. Lam steps down, I don't think the people of Hong Kong will like her party-approved replacement.
2) The originating bill some argue was to take something that was already happening under cover of darkness (see Xiao Jianhua) and bring it into formal legal process. I think Beijing should have recognized it as kindling, but I don't think the motive was bad.
3) If people in the US love protesting so much, why is nothing happening here where we actually have associated rights and protections? July 4 sounds like a fine time to protest what a mockery Trump and Republicans are making of our country.
Sounds like most commenters are just happy to confirm for themselves how much better we are than the Chinese from the comfort of their phones. "Gotta get back to the complacency, dontcha know. At least those pesky Chinese are so awful we have nothing to fear about our place in the world."
6
Democracy is messy, hard to achieve, easy to lose, but it is so so much better than the alternatives. Our species seems to have a hard time learning this most basic lesson.
2
Back in 1967, when I was living in Hong Kong, he British government brought in Gurkhas ( Nepalese military unit) and other military personnel, and impose curfews after union organized demonstrations for wage increase spiraled into general demonstration against British rule. As far as I can remember, that was considered necessary, and there were little outrage in Hong Kong or elsewhere.
As the protest continues to spiral out of control, the protesters need to ask themselves whether it is time to declare victory and go home or continue to tempt fate.
8
I BELIEVE That the only reason that the situation in Hong Kong has not deteriorated into a repeat of the slaughter at Tienanmin Square is because of the presence of so many thousands of cell phones capturing every action of the police. The police are caught between a rock and a hard place, figuratively speaking, as they are ordered to break up the riots. If they fail to do that, then their commanding officers will be dissatisfied with their performance. Also, if they attack the protesters too aggressively, they will be instantaneously tried in the court of public media on the Internet, where their actions are stored forever. Yes, there are aspects of the Internet that have been used to the detriment of individuals. In this situation, however, the Internet is being used to limit the aggression of a brutal police state crackdown. The police are taking on the computer generation and are at a distinct disadvantage, because they do NOT have the backing of the viewers worldwide who prize freedom above the expansion of the repressive regime in China.
6
I think one of the most worrying images from inside the legislative building is the use of the old HK colonial flag with the Union Jack on the upper left corner, draped in the auditorium. This surely will be as a red flag to a bull for the authorities and give them the excuse to come down hard. Wondering whether the communists have some agent provocateurs inside the crowds.
5
It's amazing and admirable how Hong Kongers can still muster the strength to still stand to their ideals, it makes me feel proud to be part Hong Konger
6
The Hong Kong protesters are in my thoughts.
5
It's time for the protesters to open a second front. It's time to start burning five-start flags in parks across the City.
3
Dear People of Hong Kong:
Try shooting the communist elites who hold you in bondage.
A revolution, customary every thirty or forty years, is long overdue in China. You MUST raise arms. Xi and his cronies will never negotiate your freedom from the tentacles of the communist state. The future only lies in freedom and the capacity of a free people to speak to truth. God bless you.
5
It is tragic that Xi doesn't understand that democracy and freedom, allowing people to voice their opinions and hold government accountable, are strengths. Unfortunately he sees only weakness.
And it is almost as tragic that we can't expect Trump to speak out for our values, to criticize Xi for what the government breaking its promises in Hong Kong. Unfortunately we know the opposite is more likely true, that Trump's vision for America is closely aligned with Xi's vision for Hong Kong.
10
As I write I am sure China is recording every protesters face and developing a list of people to be deported to China. They are also probably monitoring this website to develop their list of Americans to have rounded up by Trump in exchange for a Trump tower. Far fetched, Trump needs a China win and photo op and will give away everything. The developers of facial recognition are collaborators in the Chines big brother surveillance.
7
On the eve of America's own Independence Day, let us also celebrate the bravery of Hong Kong's people in striving for their independence from Beijing!
17
This is an example of the difference between totalitarian government and Constitutional Government, or what some call the "illusion of democracy."
The Constitutional illusion of democracy restrains the hands of government through traditions of law.
The Government of China, treats the People of Hong Kong with more deference than its own People because the Constitution ties the People of Hong Kong to their history, which led them to having a Constitutional Government.
When the U.S. government sent the Economics Department of the University of Chicago to China in the early 1980s to convert them to capitalism, they seem to have forgotten to mention the democracy part of the equation.
in the 1990s these "Chicago Boys" went to Russia and gave away the entire Soviet Economy to a handful of people we now call the Russian Oligarchs. Putin fought his way to the top. Clinton took this transition over from Bush I without batting an eye.
The global billionaires wouldn't lose any sleep if We the People would stop whining about exporting our capital and patents, giving subsidies to the people that replace us with machines but no real raises, the climate... (Billionaires don't get wages, but capital gains, so when the media says what their "income" is, look behind their salary.)
A few thousand people now claim to own half of ALL of the world's wealth. That little global aristocracy didn't create half of everything on Earth. To paraphrase Warren
THEY DIDN'T BUILD HALF OF EVERYTHING.
9
The only language they have :
violence .
Will not prevent resistance ,never.
A long history oppressors’ slaughter houses...
Freedom never for free.
Therefore historical revisionism much applauded ...but not now.
1
The protesters have gained wide support among Hong Kong people. But this time they have gone too far. If they don't like the government, just vote them off during the election by the tickets which most mainland Chinese don't have . These stupid protests have shown an ugly example of democracy to mainland Chinese. In our view, this protest has no difference with the Culture revolution which destroyed the whole country. CCP is not perfect but at least people have a peaceful environment to develop economy and improve their living standard. Under this kind of democracy, we reap nothing but turmoil. We don't need this kind of democracy. We prefer using our own ways to solve our problems.
5
Your front page live streaming of democracy fighting for it's life in Hong Kong is a very moving depiction of a historical event.
My compliment to your editors.
13
Dear Freedom Fighters,
There is much support here in Canada for the brave freedom fighters in Hong Kong.
You are not backing down from the bullies. Stay strong. You are the future.
10
So will this happen in Washington DC if Roe V Wade is overturned?
2
@Tom I doubt it. Trump is doing his best to tear our democratic country down and if he gets another term we will no longer recognize it. Will we have the guts to riot?
@Tom
I think so.
@Tom
Be serious. You have Supreme Court judges who answer to no one but the crooked politicians who put them in lifetime jobs. Who will ever forget the fascist appointment of George W. Bush to the presidency by a court of Republican shills in 2000. Ordinary Americans are gutless to kill the few thousand crooked, corrupt politicians, generals, and oligarchs who rule America. It won't happen in my lifetime. Need an abortion: try taking the bus to Canada.
At least somebody cares about democracy!!
5
Unfortunately the obvious truth is occurring to the Hong Kong people, Beijing owns and controls Hong Kong now. Period.
Sad but true, Change is coming, Move now.
6
The people in Hong Kong are so brave and most of us are completely behind you. If we do not fight for our freedoms, we lose them; a democracy is never completely safe from those who wish to become dictators, or to control vast sums of wealth. Keep fighting for your rights! We, the people are behind you.
6
As long as the world worships corporations, autocrats will destroy democracy everywhere. It is people who don't speak up and systems that don't protect people to speak up, that cause us to lose freedom. As long as humans are indentured to their overlords who give them them a pittance, democracy will fail.
4
In Hong Kong one does not brave 90 degree heat. It is just going outside in July.
5
The CCP does not care whether the World is watching. If the HK movement begins to get any traction on the mainland, the PLA will act “to restore order.” Ms. Lam needs to step down and the proposed law dropped. The brave HK protestors will likely get bolder until their aims are met. If that does not happen soon, the true horrific nature of the CCP dictatorship will again appear.
3
My hearts go out to the citizens of Hong Kong.
Despite the possibility of another Tiananmen, police brutality and incarceration, the people of Hong Kong stand boldly in the face of hostility. Hope transcending fear; Aspiration over Anxiety.
The people of Hong Kong are hungry for change; Whilst it’s supposed to be a semi-autonomous region, Hong Kong under Xi’s communist regime has become a satellite state through which the CCP seeks to pursue their own interests, reinforce authoritarianism, silence all forms of dissent and eliminate the “threat” of democracy.
Enough is enough, the world is watching.
People of Hong Kong, you have our support, Power to the People.
8
The Chinese have their preferred ways of controlling and monitoring their population. Here, the government simply allows Google and Facebook to monopolize social media while subverting free speech and promoting a progressive agenda.
6
1:00am Hong Kong time - Now, police move to clear protesters. Protesters were all leaving the occupied building without anyone being caught. Should we applause their smart mind of leaving after a mass destruction of social stability? Should we just see somebody messing around and just leaving without any responsibility?
Now, removing the masks, taking away the helmets, pretending nothing being done shaped their ways of life.
When they are laughing of what had been done without cost, the world is laughing at them: they are far away from any single touch of democracy. As a civilised people, I don't need their help for fighting democracy from a bunch of coward people. We shall condemn any kind of violence and shame on any irresponsible action we can see.
1
Hong Kong, was never a democracy. It was a British colony for a long time. Now, it is just a province of Communist China. People talk of China being the next superpower People in the East brag about how different they are from the corrupt West. Well, get use to this images from HK. This is what the Chinese century looks like!!
3
If you find a house with a rottweiler in the yard, and you trespass, and then you slap it in the face, eventually you get your hand chewed off.
That is what happened.
Is this what they expected? To create so much chaos and destruction so they can film cops trying to break down the riot?
How about jail them all, and then bill them for the police overtime and repairs?
You have the right to peaceful assembly, not to riot and vandalize. I am sure it’s similar in HK.
How about the current occupants of that building, a majority of them Beijing stooges, be replaced with a freely elected representative ofthe people of Hong Kong?
5
“Braved 90 degree heat”. Cmon! That’s a cold front in much of the world!
3
Just wondering was the tear gas purchased from one of Warren Kanders' companies (Whitney infamy and seller of tear gas used at Standing Rock and protests in general).
3
"They increasingly felt open to a more confrontational approach". Peaceful demonstration is the only leverage they had over the communist party, crossing the line, they really don't stand a chance, 6/4/89 served as a great reference as how far the communist party would go.
My point is: keep it nonviolent, stay alive, live to fight another day.
7
As a Venezuelan who protested dozens of times before fleeing the country, I feel like I'm getting PTSD by watching this Live... The people must be heard. I'm so proud of the Hong Kongese for staying strong, sticking together, and fighting so hard for their right to be heard.
"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion is a right." -Simon Bolivar
15
It seems that some of the protesters are begging for a crackdown. The violence just gives the Chinese government a perfect excuse to take away some of the freedom that protesters ostensibly demand. Remember there are Chinese troops stationed in Hong Kong, a condition the Chinese government insisted when it took over the city from Britain, exactly 22 years ago.
7
A trap?
The opposition lawmakers claim that the police did set a trap. Now when the demonstrators has acted like hooligans inside the LegCo, the police can with public support clean it up. So goes the trap-theory.
But what was the alternative? Should the state send in the army straight away? The reality is that the demonstrators has no future, because what ever they do, they cannot win over Beijing. If they stay calm, nothing will change. If they turn violent, the public opinion will turn against them. This protest will end with hundreds getting long prison terms, hundreds will emigrate and write opinion pieces in NYT and other western media while Beijing's grip over HK will increase.
4
Good way to protest, but what kind of result do they want to achieve? It was the same problem in 1989 in Beijing. The passion and blood of young people went wasted.
To those who said it is foolish for HK people to protest, they do not understand the income inequality and lack of opportunity for the people living in the tiny Island with few opportunities. What is the point of prosperity if the prosperity is only for the few who get richer?
5
The Hong Kong protesters are demonstrating that they are keenly aware that their freedom is at stake. We in the USA have something to learn from them!
10
@Ron Melchionda Like What?
Trump is getting lucky again. China doesn’t need this distraction while trade negotiations are going on. Trump could not have planned it better. Now everything is falling into place—China, NK, even Iran.
@Edward
Lucky? His pressure is contributing to the weakness of China.
2
trump isn't capable of planning; don't be naive
When public property is being torn down by the public, it's a sure sign that the government is not serving the public interest.
The ideal outcome here would be democratic elections for the entire HK government, including the position of chief executive. The likely outcome is that China will force a crackdown (or maybe even send their army in) and a lot of people will be killed. I wish these brave protesters the best. They are doing something few of us here in America would have the guts do attempt.
9
@Mr. Adams. And we don’t need to attempt it.
2
I would like to send my greatest gratitude to all the journalists and press members. The journey to follow live updates with protestors wasn’t easy at all. Thank you for letting the world know, we are desperately in need of help and liberation. Please stay safe press members!
10
Human overpopulation coupled with unfettered capitalism driving global climate change will equal dissatisfaction with life. Those at the bottom, that is 90 % of the people around the world, will not be fine with the rich carrying on, business as usual.
4
@Fourteen14 I agree. But fighting the police isn't the answer. The police are just a systemic problem. We need to talk about human overpopulation and capitalism that has run amok. Money isn't tied to anything in America. It's just digits now and not tied to any natural resource. That is hugely problematic. Most people are not educated around the history of money, the invention of its idea and how we got here. The fractional reserve system in America is a ridiculous idea.
The fact that the riot police suddenly decided to leave and let the protesters occupy & destruct the building seems to be a government tactic. It is easy to provoke a small group of young people to act radically, out of extreme outrage and desire to make a mark of their own. This is the same tactic used by the government to disperse the umbrella movement years ago. I am afraid this will taint the image of the demonstrations which have been largely peaceful, and reverse public opinion. All the best to Hong Kong.
6
We are seeing another Tienamin Square disaster and the sad part Trump and the GOP will turn their heads and refuse to demand it to stop. At least the Dems always speak out about injustice. I hope evil Chinese commies wont mow the unarmed people down with bullets or tanks like the last time. I would like to see uprisings now start on mainland China finally end that evil dictatorship. Our immoral business leaders need to speak up and threaten to take the jobs out of China instead of enabling a evil empire to continue.
1
@D.j.j.k. Do you want a war with China? Hong Kong is their territory.
4
@Jackson
No i don’t want a war with any one. But you can’t keep letting these evil empires keep behaving this way and turn your heads. Speak up or let the Dems speak up. China does not own Hong Kong . In Gods eyes humanity isn’t owned by any one.
1
“A riot is the language of the unheard.” - Dr. King
10
One day these kinds of protests will take place in mainland China
8
I hope that these young people will please return to their homes now. They have made their point. We live in an imperfect world and reality no matter how unpleasant can only be worked with, not ignored. If they remain calm, become strong, and stay true to their convictions, over time they can be of service not only to Hong Kong and China, but to the rest of the World.
I am deeply alarmed by developments in HK. While I am in complete sympathy with the protestors goals a grievances, I am also concerned that they will inadvertently overstep an invisible line and give Bejing the excuse they are likely looking for to intervene with massive force.
We must remember that the rest of China is subject to the governance of an authoritarian police state that has shown no compunction about using coercion to silence dissent. Bejing has always disliked HK's autonomous status and regarded it as a potential threat. If the protestors are not careful this could end with a military takeover of HK.
11
The irony here is that on one hand the protesters rail about police brutality while on the other hand their actions are based on the assumption that the police will not crack down too hard. If the protesters REALLY wanted to make a statement and force a reaction they would have tried to occupy the building next door.
For those that are not familiar with HK, that building is the PLA garrison...
11
Wishing the people of Hong Kong the very best as they struggle to retake their government from authoritarian control!
Long live democracy!
18
@Wendy. It will never happen.
Thank you for your coverage. Network/Cable news seems too distracted to care about this.
14
@Ning: Depends on what you're watching. As I'm typing this France 24, DW (Germany), Al Jazeera, RT, and PBS all have live feeds of this event on YouTube.
2
amen to this
You can’t be certain that there aren’t Chinese masquerading as Hong Kong manifestants (just as anarchists take over peaceful protests) using violence to sabotage the movement and provide the pretext for a crackdown. Given the easy flow of mainland Chinese to Hong Kong, anything is possible.
14
HK Monday June 10 1019.
By British foreign correspondent Paul Martin
The Hong Kong that was the British jewel of colonies for 150 years is gone...forever faded...into the sunset.
This beautiful island with it's natural waterways and harbor that was the envy of Asia so to speak has now
become a political battleground between the disappearing remnants of what was a truly British democracy
and a world class stock exchange has now transformed into a sad captive city of 7 million yearning for the
freedoms and democratic system they used to know and live by.
Yes there are still many British judges here and more that a hundred British cops, some of very high ranks,
but you can clearly see the futile expressions on their faces as they try in vain to ward off Beijing's insistence
that hk extradite whomever the prc demands to the mainland to face trial.
So their you have it...the good old days of British hk a magnificent haven for so many western expats including this writer is no more. Beijing no longer conceals it's meddling into the city's affairs and those within legco's powers are understandably
The very old hk people who sadly see their beautiful city's British colonial memories disappearing faster each day like a political requiem, can only close their eyes for a moment as they glance across the peaceful hk sunset and calm waterways and for a moment reminisce.....pretending it was British once more !
4
Glancing at the headline, for a moment, I thought that the "Legislature" meant the Capital building here. I'll have to admit my disappointment at my mistake but I'll take heart for the citizens of Hong Kong. After the SCOTUS ruling on gerrymandering, my opinion about taking to the streets in any case was reinforced. Pelosi = Chamberlain
5
The people of Hong Kong deserve freedom. Like people everywhere, when legitimate legal means to justice are denied, the people of Hong Kong are taking it to the streets.
But China has not changed since Tiananmen Square.
China wants to keep the economic advantage of Hong Kong, but not at the cost of continued western styled freedoms. Given a choice between prosperity and oppression, China will choose oppression every time.
This end of this uprising will be heartbreaking.
8
Dear People of Hong Kong:
You are heroes to freedom loving people everywhere. The world watches you as you struggle to maintain the freedoms you were promised in 1997.
Courage.
163
@Bob Burns
I so agree. That's what fighting for one's freedom looks like.
10
@Bob Burns You call this freedom? Can you imagine white house is occupied by protests who oppose Trump?
2
@Michael, yes! That would be glorious. Trump's undermining of democratic institutions, like the Hong Kong legislation in question, are gateways to despotism.
5
If only we had the fortitude to unite in protest against the corrupt and incompetent administration currently installed at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
7
@Marcus Aurelius That didn’t work out too well in 2016
Taiwan is watching.
8
I give Hong Kong people my full support.
7
A regrettable tactical catastrophe for the protesters. I have boundless sympathy for the protesters cause. The Chinese communists are ruthless enemies of freedom everywhere, and especially in their own country.
But storming the legislature has given the communist thugs the excuse they have been looking for to crack down mercilessly. No government can tolerate protesters occupying the seat of power. Imagine the reaction if protesters stormed the Capitol.
Hitler used a (supposed) attack on the Reichstag as the pretext for imposing martial law. The neo-fascists in power in China will do the same in Hongkong, with all the brutality, and with as little regret, as Tienanmen.
8
The extreme fringe of protesters might be disguised state actors intent on escalating and provoking violence to discredit the protests, alienate the HK population and turn international sentiment against protesters. Orchestrated violence could justify a Tiananmen-like crackdown to maintain safety and security.
8
When the police leave, if signals a very dangerous time for the demonstrator. What it really means, is the demonstrator are being "set up". After they get done vandalizing the building, and China will send in real troops who will annihilate them.
Rule number one for demonstrators, don't hang around for too long when you see the authorities start to maneuver .
19
Let this be an example for the people across China that the power of the Chinese Communist Party is an illusion.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
13
These words might have provided an inspiration for the rest of the world if they had not been penned by an unrepentant slaveholder of the very worst kind. Stealing people’s freedom and the product of their labor is great sin, but raising people to sell like livestock (thereby separating parents from children, and children from siblings) like Jefferson did is the absolute worst.
4
@NorthernVirginia
Yes, it's time for all of Guangzhou to rise up against domination from Beijing.
3
@Peeking Through The Fence
A textbook example of the logical fallacy of equating the arguer with the argument. Sort of like: he's bad so everything he says is wrong.
Sorry to tell you, that is not a compelling argument.
The protesters should be wary of going too far. China built a six lane mega-bridge from the mainland to Hong Kong. That bridge could be used to send PLA tanks and troops to the city to "restore law and order" if things get "out of control".
6
Why to bother using the express lane? The army is right beside the riot location right now, literally. There is a PLA army barrack adjacent to the legislature buiding.
3
Yes, China is playing dirty tricks with us with North Korea and to an extent the Philippines, but those are not our or their country. Hong Kong is.
We value freedom as a way of making decisions for all of us, China has progressed technically and therefore economically with the party making all the decisions and "electing" themselves.
I think China is nutty for not leaving Hong Kong a place between our two worlds and I don't understand the fear that is evident in the government in Beijing. But Prince Charles handed the city state to China 22 years ago TODAY and it is a part of China. Sad, but the mistake is theirs to make.
1
Not a peep from our dear leader here at home.
No support for democracy? Looking to get on Xi's good side Mr. Trump?
What a fair-weather democracy advocate.
12
Sooner or later are we going to see another Tiananmen square in Hong Kong? Let us hope not. Freedom and democracy is under attack everywhere in the world. This must be overcome by unhindered voter participation.
8
In USA, if protesters do the same thing in congress, police will shoot you. So, don’t use different standard for China.
11
Finally, see someone pointing out the hypocrisy common in US!
the whataboutism is strong with this one. look up logical fallacy.
The Chinese government is eternally grateful for this utterly counterproductive provocation that will offend and alienate many Chinese. Raise the colonial flag of bloody Britain? No matter how much one detests the Chinese regime to celebrate an appeal to the horrific history of British colonialism is guaranteed to lose support. My bet is they are likely police agents acting as provocateurs. That was always a safe bet in the US for the Black Rights or Anti-War movements. Anyone who proposed really crazy violent acts was inevitably an FBI agent or the local police Red Squad. This protest needs to reach out to a billion potential allies in China or it will inevitably lose. Anyone claiming the mantle of leadership who doesn't understand that fundamental truth needs to be pushed aside. Reining in the provocateurs and agents would be a good start. Wave the Chinese flag, explain why you are fighting for the rights of all Chinese, not the privilege of an enclave. Expand support or be crushed.
3
I am so sure most Chinese in mainland China see it as a riot. I am from china, and had been working in Hong Kong for many years. I am not a fan of the communist party. But denfinitely see the youths waving UK flag to be so naive and ridiculous!
2
A possible scenario: Xi would make some concessions to Trump in Trade War; and in return, Trump would let Xi crack down HK protestors with violence. A win-win strategy for the dictator and would-be dictator on both sides of the pond.
4
This violence and destruction plays right into the hands of Mr Xi and Ms Lam. These provocative wanton and brainless actions by some of the protestors will give Mr Xi and Ms Lam the justifications to crack down even further.
It appears the middle class and older generation are aghast at the destruction. and public perception has now changed.
7
Why are the people of Hong Kong, having transitioned from Colonialism to Autocracy, still better at standing up to Tyranny than we are? As our proud Democracy is being disarticulated, and our Constitution is showing dangerous gaps, why aren't liberty-loving Americans in the street protesting our sad turn towards Fascism?
I'm angry, frightened, and very, very sad.
9
@Wendy Aronson Because we lost piece by piece. The only mistake HK made was doing it all at once and giving it media attention.
A bite of an apple doesn't seem like a big deal until you finish the entire apple in 100 bites. That's what happened in the U.S.
4
Let us hope that this does not turn into Tiananmen Square 2. But I imagine Trump already let Xi Jinping know he won't protest when they met at the G20.
2
Imagine if the occupy Wall Street protestors stormed the Capitol building or the White House. Would they get very far before meeting devastating lethal force?
What a small group of rioters are doing is damaging the reputation of the majority who want to make their voice heard and are peaceful.
This riot gives the central government plenty of excuses to crack down even harder.
9
I can’t believe the police are allowing the protestors to deface the Council chambers and even to raise the British Flag of Hong Kong. China is being pressed to take harsh retaliatory actions which it must do at least to save face, but the fact that it’s in this situation at all is another complication that it doesn’t need with Trump pressing the free trade issue. The cracks in the surface of the Chinese government are beginning to show, and it could quickly end with revolution or counter-revolution because the outdated Communist regime is unable to coexist with China’s mercantile interests and no longer serves any purpose other than to perpetuate itself.
2
One thing we know. It’s not going to end well for democracy. The only difference between now and Tiananmen Square is that China is no longer completely isolated from the rest of the world so it has to act more subtly and with less brutality, but the stakes are even higher because, if its back is against the wall, China will have to take more drastic measures. Then all bets will be off.
4
Chinese forces are standing back now, allowing destruction of state property for a reason. The destruction by a few will be used as justification of a bloody crackdown on all. The groundwork for the rational for violence is already being laid by the Chinese press and a reliable informal army of Chinese supporters at home and abroad.
The blood in the streets will be applauded by our Mr Trump, a willing student of oppression.
Under a repressive regime, Hong Kong as we know it, will soon no longer exist.
1
This is what Americans should be doing, before it's too late. Very admirable, and I hope, effective against the emotionally dead tyrant. Speak their language--fear. Stand strong.
14
Hooray for the people!
Democracy has no room for a ruling class. It's government for, by and of the people 100%.
Take back and restore what is your, O people of the world!
3
Amazing. Chinese democracy protesters hoisting a British colonial flag. Maybe that western enlightenment thing isn't so bad after all after all.
5
I cannot imagine the police showing similar restraint if this demonstration occurred here in the US. Imagine demonstrators storming the capitol in DC or for that matter any state legislative building.
5
We are seeing the true colors of these protesters come out. Destroying the chambers of law and governance? Raising the flag of colonial autocracy? Throwing bricks against police? Pro-democracy they most certainly are not.
But what are they really there for? That British flag might be a hint.
9
It’s exciting to watch this live of course, but shouldn’t the Times and other news outlets be a little more careful when showing the faces of the people who made it into the legislature, if they’re not giving interviews voluntarily? I know live-streaming is exhilarating and seems objective, but it’s not exactly taking sides to make some attempt to protect peaceful protestors from certain retribution. I’m sure the police are combing this feed right now.
1
Living in Hong Kong at this very moment is too overwhelming for me. I've been to many many demonstrations before and they never seemed to gain any progress, not until our next generation comes out in full force who dare to stand up and fight for their hopes and futures, carrying ours along the way. We owe them many thanks.
12
We need to do this here!
6
I'm sure the protesters felt empowered to read yesterday in the Times that they were abused by police and had the world's sympathy and support and it went directly to their heads and feeling now they had the right to tear the town down with complete impunity. When China now has to clear their heads of that notion the hard way, who can the protesters thank for that?
4
The tumult of a return of a people from the status of the profitable authoritarian satellite of a relatively benign vestigial elitist monarchical socialist country to a ruthless imperialistic elitist one is jarring but should not be unexpected.
1
Great to see people wanting their freedom and ACTING on it.
Now if we could only get Americans to do the same thing.
12
Unfortunately for Democracy here in America scenes like this are a distant past.
4
If only Americans cared this much about their diminishing democracy!
13
Like a frog in slowly boiling water, so gradual they won’t know until it’s too late.
2
Loose minds lose minds. Why are the people allowing themselves to devolve into rage? That's just what makes them easily controlled.
8
I'm sorry, I'm watching it live, and this article doesn't thoroughly cover it. It's not only about the protestors—the police have feelings too. Why don't you try and see how they feel, wrongly accused and cornered, hit, hated? It's hard to know unless you're there.
8
It is important to know why the riot police left the legislative complex . If the protestors do not leave the legislative complex, we may witness another Tienammen except this time the revolution will be televised.
2
Tragedy in the making. China has made great progress in recent decades, but the idea of western style democracy is not possible. not yet. President Xi is not a thug and he does understand that to turn Hong Kong into a police state will destroy the future. Money runs the city and if there's blood in the streets the money will go away and not come back. At the same time China has a credible right of extradition and ultimate authority. Many of the protesters hate the mainland as backward and bigoted toward them. This could end in a positive way, but to do so both sides have to calm down. Students trashing the government buildings does not help. Nor does police brutality.
1
The colonial flag says everything. These people are not after "freedom" at all. British Hong Kong was the most autocratic state the city has ever lived under, where the life of every citizen was at the mercy of an dictatorial governor with unlimited power. This "protest" movement doesn't pass the smell test.
8
Hong Kong by now should realize that since the Brits pulled out their freedom from Beijing was a fake believe and never for real (since the UK gave it up). Reality is reality.
2
Wow - the images of the masses of people protesting are impressive. The people of Hong Kong are fighting for their rights. Good for them. I support them.
5
10:30pm Hong Kong time - Protestors entered the Legislative Council Building. Umbrellas, helmets and face masks were covering them to destroy many stuff. If this is a way to fight for democracy, I am just wonder anyone will be accepting this.
A very sad day to Hong Kong people, and shame on violence with no sense. Please, don't use 'fighting for democracy' as an excuse to destroy. This is no use.
8
@chu
you may want to read up on the Boston Tea Party in 1773. it was no party.
4
A few more years or even months and this could be democratically starved Americans storming government institutions. Wouldn’t be the first time.
1
Some aspect of this protest; a couple hundred people storming the Legislative Council building, barricading themselves there, some or them calling on “people of Hong Kong ... ” - and no police action. Other places peaceful protests and batton beating.... is the police truly giving space to demonstrators or is the political elite hoping for big property destruction so they can justify use of force?
This reminds me of some of the provocations in the 80ies in the eastern block to find a justification to use the force by the police, for the arrests and ultimately squashing the mostly peaceful demonstrations.
2
This is what happens when stupid meets police provocateurs. Wave the hated British flag of humiliation? The lack of leadership and political program dooms this movement. They need to appeal to a billion potential allies in China, or be crushed. If they are not fighting for the rights of all Chinese, what are they fighting for?
3
This is so interesting, so brave. Imagine this happening to any other despotic regime in the world -- Saudi Arabia, Russia, the list goes on and on. Of course the people of those countries wouldn't stand a chance. They would be crushed -- obliterated -- before they even got close to the "inner sanctum" of power. And obviously that would be true if such an outpouring of sentiment took place in China itself. Not a chance! But because of the unique and unprecedented situation with Hong Kong, at least for the moment the Chinese leadership can do nothing. How wonderful!
1
When a million people march it is not against the mainstream, it *is* the mainstream.
3
Hong Kong has always pretended it was the business and finance pearl of China. For many decades other major cities (city states really) inside China have moved to unseat Hong Kong in this perception... most especially Shanghai.
China agreed to special autonomy for Hong Kong as part of the handover from Britain (who by the way, NEVER treated Hong Kong as a free democracy). All parties agreed and Hong Kong moved forward as a Chinese city, with unique and special privileges.
What the people of Hong Kong are realizing is that they are no longer the center of economic and corporate power in China and that means a decline in both importance and power in the region... and for the younger generation.. that creates a vacuum in terms of opportunity for them in the future.
The reality here is that peaceful protest would be tolerated (though ineffective) for the most part by the government (both inside and outside mainland China) BUT... violent protests simply give China cause for revoking Hong Kongs special status among Chinese cities and provinces. In effect..... the protestors are shooting themselves in the foot so to speak with their approach here.
And let's not start with the usual meme about China cracking down on "democratic protestors" who get violent.... especially considering how US law enforcement behaves to similar protests in the US. People in glass houses... should not throw stones. Besides... Hong Kong has never been a democracy.. even under British rule.
5
This isn't going to end well. Despite all the comments about how wonderful it is how everyone is acting to defend democracy in HK. Several thoughts occur to me:
One: The PRC has more then a few troops that don't speak the same language as the protesters and won't hesitate to shoot them down in the street whether or not they're armed, unarmed, running away or surrendering.
Two: The government cannot and will not tolerate open disrespect from HK PERIOD. It's sets a precedent the party cannot afford will not allow. Even if it must drown HK in blood.
Three: There is nothing the US, the UK west in general can do for HK. Recognize an independent HK and it would be an act of war China would not & could not accept. No nation is prepared to fight a war for HK. Not to mention if HK declares independence China shuts off water and food supplies which it firm control over.
Four: If I was investing in HK I would invest in mortuaries & Funeral homes. They are likely to get very busy.
One last thought that will make me unpopular if I was leader or organizer of this or some other recent protests. I would be looking to get out of HK and China. Because the PRC response may delayed a few months maybe a few years, but it will absolutely be lethal. The PRC is unforgiving at best. And I doubt any of the protest organizers or leaders will much like being involuntary organ donors.
We should hopefully view protests in the United States with the same context and sympathy as we do to foreign demonstrations. We don't often try to understand the anger the arises in a lot of our own protests.
1
Regarding Hong Kong, although the goals of the protesters are excellent, how much will China accept before it decides to suppress the protests and maintain martial law?
If we can sanction Russia about Crimea, why can‘t we do the same about Hongkong? Of course it‘s all about the money and not about our love for freedom, justice or democracy. By the same token, we‘re also not sanctioning Saudi Arabia.
The West has zero credibility as a defender of human rights, freedom and democracy, so we might as well stop claiming the moral high ground.
5
When the government does not seat duly elected representatives of the people - that is a violent act against the population. They should not be surprised when violence is met with violence. The government has many tools of repression, the people few in response. When the ballot box is removed the options are even scarcer.
9
China will crush the rebellion. Hong Kong will be occupied by the People's Liberation Army. Thousands will be arrested and there great risk that Xi Jinping will order the troops to open fire.
Regrettably the United States has remained silent as has Great Britain, France, Germany Japan, Canada and Australia. Worse, Mr. Trump will encourage Xi to exert greater force because Trump wants a trade deal and does not want to jeopardize it by showing support for Hong Kong's youth.
Whether or not this becomes another Tiananmen Square Massacre depends only upon Xi. Because he wants strict authoritarian control and not Democracy he will act accordingly. Compromise will not be possible if Xi is to remain in control.
There cannot be autonomy or any kind of self rule in Hong Kong.
What this also tells us is how China will treat Taiwan and the rest of South East Asia. Kiss freedom, freedom of expression and independence goodbye.
10
I wonder what special interest are dumping tons of money to fund those protesters. Brazil is a good example, “grassroots” movements funded by the Koch Brothers, at the end destroyed The government of Dilma Rouseff.
8
I strongly agree with you since my HK friend told me that each protester received 1000 HK dollars per day for the manifestation.
They better know how many residents have litigations or charges with their names. especially the rich ones. For example, search for the high ranked officers of CCP and those corrupt functionaries from mainland china, you will find part of their kids or their wife live in HK because of no extradition! Some even took more than half billion usd to HK. Another example is the wife of Interpol chief. She met Meng as his mistress, then she obtained the citizenship of HongKong. Meng arranged her among the bords of several companies across HK and mainland China. She lives in France, not far from my community, has a private driver and a mansion and never worked in those companies. However she receives around 1 million usd per year for nothing.
I strongly doubt the hand behind all of this.
Contrast the courage these brave people in Hong Kong in the face of the overwhelming odds against a vastly more powerful Chinese Communist State vs the United States where courage is sadly lacking to overturn a deceitful ignorant little conman.
28
the difference is we can vote Trump out of office. also many people have protested in America, including myself. you just read the news and think nobody cares. which is incorrect.
Now I worry that if they go too far, it will prompt a takeover by China, which I have expected all along. The British made a huge mistake giving up Hong Kong.
6
As someone whose family left HK in the 1990s in fear of China regaining control, I have been watching this unfold first in despair, and now with growing hope that their voices will be heard.
However I also fear that the protesters are learning that peaceful protests will achieve nothing, and that the violence will only increase. I fear for their safety and yet my heart swells for their bravery and selflessness. I am proud to say I am from Hong Kong and I only wish I could be there to join in.
29
@SL So buy a plane ticket and go. But what you don't do is advocate from America for its involvement. South Viet Nam is a case study. Americans forced to fight for someone else's freedom when their nation's security wasn't threatened.
@R When did I advocate for America's involvement...?
4
@SL It possibly was peremptory. But that is how it starts. Admiration leads to calls for assistance. Which leads to assumption of responsibility for the problem. In its best interests, America should take a course of non-involvement on Hong Kong.
This will probably come to conclusion fairly quickly. Xi Jinping has already lost face due to the "trade war" with America. China is rapidly losing economic momentum from restructuring of international supply lines away from their market. Dissatisfaction is building within the Chinese middle class. (A group formed over recent decades by Chinese predatory economic policies.) Xi can not permit rampant disrespect from a portion of the nation (Hong Kong) that already enjoys greater freedom than those on the Mainland. Forceful control will very soon be applied. And America's response will most likely be to accelerate the economic disengagement from China. The "trade war" will intensify. Hong Kong citizens should prepare for emigration to Taiwan, Britain, or British Commonwealth nations. (Australia, New Zealand, Canada.) America will not participate in that endeavor. Our nation has already carelessly expended too much treasure on the Western Pacific Rim over the recent decades.
8
The U.S. will let China do what it wants because of Trump and his hold upon the Senate. He cannot manage this kind of a problem so he will just let it go.
@R. Are you saying you prefer war with China?
@Casual Observer He is managing it. Non-involvement. It is a very poignant lesson for the international capitalist. Investment in unstable third world nations doesn't always work well. The contiguous Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach could very soon be less active.
6:20pm Hong Kong time - Protesters broke several glass doors of the Legislative Council building and put some igniting objects inside the building. If this happens in your country, do you think this is still a peaceful protest or a riot? I am worrying the police of Hong Kong safeguarding the building has life threatening attack.
Singing Hallelujah to the Lord, God Bless HK Police.
50
@chu
I've see New York City police treat non-violent demonstrators with more brutality and violence than the HK police are using.
23
@chu
In the US... under the same circumstances... it would be hundreds of law enforcement in body armor, with armored vehicles, point sniper rifles at protestors while slinging CS gas everywhere and beating and detaining protestors.
Americans are such hypocrites in how they criticize Hong Kong police here... yet give law enforcement in the US the big "raw raw!" when the same thing happens in the US.
15
@Norman - State Kent University is a prime example of how USA treats non-violent demonstrators.
4
Is the Mainland censorship apparatus sufficient to Great Wall this turmoil? Would other “splittist” movements pick up the torch and knock Dada Xi like Humpty Dumpty off his wall?
China and the self determination of its people to chart their own courses? Free from the Police State oppressors and heavy handed monolithic cadre of elitist?
Tibet, East Turkestan and Inner Mongolia detach and form independently elected representative governments?
A Great Leap Forward for China and Belt and Road down the tubes.
3
This appears to be Tiananmen all over again. Unfortunately history does repeat itself. The Chinese Communist Party is probably listening to the same arguments at this very minute about how to deal with the protesters. Smashing glass doors and walls will not bode well for the protesters. We all (those outside China, at least) know what happened when the army was forced to clear the demonstrators out of the public square. The CCP was mistaken in suppressing local news media from showing the army's violent response to the Tiananmen uprising. Hong Kong will never be the same prize for China that it had been if Tiananmen is repeated.
5
This IS very difficult. I'm sure I remember the revolt before Tienenman Square. Starting as peaceful protests, with meetings with the "reforming" leadership of the time, but impatiently quickly deteriorating to riots, burning & wrecking. Also, the Chinese will have seen how overturning the Soviet not far away did not end well (I suspect if "The West" - US?) had given more support to Gorbechov, the stage may not have been set for the Oligarchs, then Putin to steal the country. Is it really surprising that the Chinese leaders (already on a worrying autocratic train) cannot allow similar chaos then and now? Very sad for the Hong Kongers - and others down the line...
1
The difficulty in the post U.S.S.R. was due to a failure to replace the undemocratic state with a competent democratic state. That demanded firm and authoritarian rule to restore order and stability, resulting in Putin. Russia never in history ever had liberal democracy and it had some really wild ideas from the outside world that added to the chaos, such as privatization with no government intervention generating a liberal system automatically. Hong Kong has a history of liberal democracy, if it seceded it will be self sufficient.
3
They are no “protesters” or “activists”, they are a rioting mob, pure and simple, and need to be treated as such. I’ve got no problems with peaceful marching, but when you vandalize public buildings, there needs to be consequences.
These people need to be arrested on the spot, just as I would be if I threw a brick at my city hall window.
3
Really. You would be fine seeing your rights ebbing away and be pleased to see those who are doing so restore law and order?
12
@Different take
Familiar with the Boston Tea Party? American Revolution? If its relevance is somehow obscured by either amnesia or nearsightedness, the Communists rule HK and PRC because of its own violent revolution.
@Different take Did you read the article? Most of the demonstrators did not take part in the vandalism and some even tried to stop it. But to you they're all violent rioters. I wonder why that is.
While our own politicians and judges are chipping away at our rights on a daily basis, and with very little public outrage, it’s heartening to see the people of Hong Kong stand up to a behemoth to preserve theirs. Respect!
24
Nice to see citizens say enough.
Actually, recently some Americans did try to say enough in the form of the Occupy movement. That movement was ended by brute state power in the form of black clad storm troopers who dismantled and occupied the camps. Have no doubt: If you tried to smash the White House fence you would be shot dead!
As for the power of the vote: At the state level, your vote was just fundamentally undermined by the Supreme Court's gerrymandering decision. At the national level our system grossly privileges the rural vote by giving each state two Senate seats. That's how we've ended up with a Court which will take a modern nation back to medieval times. It also privilege the "corporate person" over the individual. And, if America does elect a president who questions corporate power that person will have their hands tied by the Senate - again, the tyranny of the few.
They have us figured out, the system is rigged for the benefit of corporate power and their representatives. The social moral stuff is a sideshow to keep the lower income folks in the rural states voting against their economic interest.
Eventually there will be violence by those who are desperate enough and the state will react by total surveillance and militarism as it did during the occupy movement.
38
@Osborn It may be helpful to take a step back and think of the alternatives. USA is a huge country with lots of rural areas, without which the country simply could not function properly. If not a bifurcated Congress with half of which having equal representation, what would you propose that would Norberto turn this country to only care about the cities and turn the countryside into wasteland?
1
@HKScoobyDoo
No one on the left advocates turning rural USA into a wasteland. In fact, the Occupy movement would have benefited rural USA by regulating and minimizing the greed and oppression of large corporations.
Most of the “suffering” experienced in rural USA comes from the strangulating grip of Big Ag — over seeds, fertilizers, pesticides, hog farms, chicken farms, farming equipment, etc. Even the Farm Bill legislation benefits large corporate farms and agricultural industries more than smaller family-owned farms.
Yet, rural USA mostly votes for Republicans (some for corporate Democrats), ensuring that corporate control and oppression continues.
BUT, the rural folks get to force their “beliefs” onto the majority of Americans... THAT’S the anti-democratic, authoritarian tendencies of rural USA opposed by the left and larger population centers.
4
I hope that the protest movement has enough sense to allow Beijing a face saving off ramp. With a leaderless and apparently organic movement, I fear this will not happen.
The protesters can be right and dead at the same time if they are not careful. I am very concerned at the potential for carnage on an unprecedented scale. The Party has a deep understanding of the long bloody, tumultuous history of insurrection throughout Chinese history. It haunts their dreams. When the hammer comes down, it will be bad.
3
@Vince Borden
Who care about whether Mr Xi saves face. He is evil and deserves worse that being exposed as such.
Yes, it will be bad. We can hope that the West will now support Independence for Hong Kong.
7
@Amy, Who in the “West” have the political appetite to actually do something meaningful to upset China? Chinese expand their territorial claim by building islands, they use state fundings to sponsor tech companies that do not even hide their espionage purposes and they blatantly stole personal information of DOJ personnel. If the “West” didn’t do anything before, you think they will do anything now?
@HKScoobyDoo
Let me introduce you to Mr Trump, Mr. Pompeo, and Mr Bolton.
1
The Hong Kong protesters should remember that sporadic mob fury can terrorise authorities, even extract some concessions but can't achieve long term goals, which is possible only through sustained mass struggle with clear strategy, organisational support, leadership, and goals sans violence. For, the mob violence is never a match to the organised state force. Ideally, after forcing the withdrawal of the extradition bill and getting apology from the Chief administrator, Carrie Lam the protesters should have devoted to organising a democratic mass movement to force China to stick to the declared policy of "one country, two systems".
3
Well state force is not from a mandate from heaven, but by the willing or unwilling consent of the governed. The state’s ability to apply that force can disappear if the people refuse to cooperate. The protestor’s are inviting violent repression but their cause seems to have popular support.
The Communists are not hesitant to kill to repress dissent. I think that’s what they will do. Whether that will suppress the dissent, or just make the people into passive resistors is to be seen.
6
The people of Hong Kong are willing to defy the Communist Party of China for the sake of liberty and independence. The Communist Party of China is inclined to just crush them as it did the protestors who were peaceful but defiant in Tiananmen Square. Xi has to answer to the Party. So we shall see, but I think that the protestors may see the People’s Liberation Army in their streets, before long.
7
In Hong Kong the protester's age/gives them a much keener rage/Confucius might say/when youth has its way/there's no use for unruffled sage.
3
SCMP (South China Morning Post), the oldest and most reliable English newspaper in HK, published HK government supporters in a mass parade yesterday. Their peaceful walk & positive attitude towards Mrs. Carrie Lam, HK governor, were very encouraging. Extradition law is normal in every developed country.
And today's protesters, although majority peaceful but some violent individual clash with the police show extremists had another motive to destroy the "law and order" of HK society. Some prominent members of the HK society already asked government to investigate these disruptive members of the protesters.
4
Hong Kong has thrived for generations with a democratic system. China’s creeping authoritarianism is enormously unpopular. The will of the people must prevail.
11
@Robert Actually, democracy was never practiced in HK. Not under British rule, not now, and not until - one day perhaps - the Chinese political system becomes democratic.
1
Will we be prepared to do the same if Trump doesn’t concede after his defeat in November 2020?
Because we know that he’d call the militias if he needed to. We’ve seen what the GOP is capable of in Oregon.
19
@Patrician
Trump will never concede. He will call it a rigged election and millions of illegal votes against him. He will have to be physically ejected from the white house. And it could be that his base will rise up to protect him. I fear we've got trouble brewing on the horizon
2
@Michael
I agree.
That’s my biggest fear. Not that we won’t defeat Trump despite all the Russian help he will get.
But, that he won’t concede. He has always gotten away with everything in life: bankruptcies, sexual assaults... why would he think that he wouldn’t get away this time around as well?
Especially since he’s neutered the GOP.
We have to be prepared for the worst. The future of America depends on it.
3
Will The New York Times be asking the current President and Vice President to comment on the Hong Kong protests? Whose side are they on?
8
I'm rather shocked by how undemocratic some of the comments are. I see some calling for mobs to storm the White House and force Trump out.
Like him or not, Trump won the last election. Another election occurs in 2020. If you want him out of office, work to defeat him at the polls. If he's re-elected, respect the will of the people, and work for your favorite candidate for 2024.
If a mob can overturn election results, our country truly has lost our democracy.
11
Fraudulent election. He only 'won' because the US has been so manipulated over the years by the rich to dilute the power of a personal vote.
13
@Phil
"Trump won the last election."
Just not by getting the most votes.
8
@Phil
It's not so shocking when you read the rhetoric of the columns, banging the drum of an "illegitimate" election they won't say out loud. When you hammer that point repeatedly and it dominates your front page, course people start to mimic that.
Look back at the Iraq war support, and how this paper lead the charge to support it.
4
Hong Kongers, don’t worry, you have all the moral support of the people of the US. The same people that cannot stop arms sale to Saudi Arabia, settlement building in West Bank and withdraw from climate treaty are fully behind you 8000 miles away. Fight on, fight on
8
I’ll bet GW Bush and Bill Clinton are really proud of their push to allow China to join the World Trade Organization to “democratize” the mainland. It only empowered a despotic regime. Poor Hong Kong.
15
Just think....in a short time China will take over Hong Kong completely, and they'll not have to worry about these pesky protesters, off to whatever the Chinese version of Siberia is for them.....I'm sure as I write this Big Tech (Google et al) is helping China to identify the ringleaders and they'll be dealt with swiftly in time.
16
FYI, three people have committed suicide to against the government. 2 million people go to the street but the government do not respond. The protesters have prepared to sacrifice themselves as well.
4
All those comments saying if Americans were brave they too would be storming their government forget two things. First, we have the right to vote. It is harder on some places than others here, but we still have it and the failure of many to exercise it in 2000 and 2016 led to disasters. Second, does anyone doubt how this kind of thing ends in an era when governments have incredible amounts of lethal force and the means to use it? I do not have a good answer for the people of Hong Kong, but I am certain the Chinese government will feel it can not tolerate what is happening, and no one in the world is going to come to their aid, anymore than it did for the people on the mainland in 1989. The day after the catastrophe we will still be using our iPhones and be looking the other way.
162
Think times have changed. We now live in a Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TickTok world. Unarmed students being shot in the streets is not going to go over well anywhere. Plus major demographic changes mean lots more young people. Everywhere.
You new FB friend is not your neighbor, but someone living 12,000 miles away. You may have a better relationship with them then your own family.
A mind is at work, thinking, this time students, maybe next time me? That does not make for a stable government. And then things can really change, fast. Really fast.
Welcome to the future. :-)
19
Yes we have the right to vote, but voting is worthless. So is writing/emailing representatives and meeting with them in person. I have done all of the above. Newsflash: they do not represent us (their so-called constituents), but corporate and moneyed interests. Storming the legislature may soon be the only way to go unfortunately.
68
@Stuart Wilder
There is no reasoning with people who believe they are being treated the same in the US as these Hong Kong residents are being treated.
5
Citizens of Hong Kong are not going to be fooled by their Govt, which is a puppet of Beijing. They know democracy and are unwilling to have China totally consume them into the Communist system. This is an ideal time for the citizens to revolt, possibly violently as President XI has the world's spotlight on him for many different reasons and would not want to be crashing about him. If he responds with an iron fist as China did in Tianamen Square it would, the criticisms, possible sanction and otherwise expose the Chinese strategy for what it truly represents: hardcore repression to keep the Chinese Communist party in power by any costs.
178
@Other
Hong Kong knows democracy? What’s Hong Kong’s democratic credential? Did they vote for the Queen or PM or governor back in the days? Did they sent representatives to the Palace of Westminster? Did they hold British passport and can live anywhere in the UK and EU? Did Labour and Conservative round up voters on the street to vote in party elections? Tell me, what kind of democracy existed in Hong Kong?
12
The CCP strategy has long been exposed. If Tiananmen and what has happened in Tibet/Xinjiang didn’t register, neither will this. There is just way too much corporate money and trade involved for the globe to do much.
6
Really, do you think that Trump and McConnell give a hang about liberty and democracy? They would do nothing about any violence by China against the people of Hong Kong.
13
It’s hard to predict where this will end. Xi is undoubtably pressuring Lam to get this under control; the question is whether this desire for control, combined by increasingly violence on the part of protestors, leads to a Tiananmen 2.0. I hope not.
It’s amazing to me how liberalism is coming under sustained attack on so many fronts recently. Witness Putin’s recent comment to the effect that liberalism is obsolete in today’s world. Even within our own country, we have a president who is “honored” to meet with murderous dictators such as Kim and MBS. Western democracies are facing an existential threat.
424
If saying you are "honored," to meet someone that is repulsive ends up being the first step towards peace. I say go for it. North Korea is easily within striking distance of our two longest running allies in Asian and testing capabilities to target California.
4
@Ethan
Is your comment a testimony to the fact that conservative support of Trump is based on cowardice? The idea that we should fear a 2 bit dictator like Kim should be laughable.
16
@Ethan There's your problem. We're not making any steps toward peace because Kim is giving Trump his photos ops and getting concessions and then going on with what he was doing in the first place. And Trump just refuses to believe his own people on the subject, because it clashes with his self-image as a "winner." he's being played, and he's playing us.
32
One country, two systems Was always going to be an impossibility. China was simply waiting for Hong Kong citizens to fall into line.
11
Could we "storm" the White House and demand that Trump be removed—
As a threat to national security.
[Would the Senate perhaps then get the message?]
19
@srwdm You could storm the White House, but there is no reason to. In America we have elections, in 2020 they'll be another one, then they'll be one again in 2024. That is where Americans take their revenge. However, if you plan to storm the White House, be sure to be the first one to do it, first in the line, instead of sitting at home and cheering on others.
4
@srwdm
"Could we "storm" the White House and demand that Trump be removed"
I'm rather shocked by how undemocratic comments like this are. Like him or not, Trump won the last election. Another election occurs in 2020. If you want him out of office, work to defeat him at the polls. If he's re-elected, respect the will of the people, and work for your favorite candidate for 2024.
If a mob can overturn election results, our country truly has lost our democracy.
7
@Joe
Note that “storm” was in quotes.
The problem is that we can’t wait until 2020. Time is of the essence and the damage being done is staggering.
3
The world is united with the freedom, Democratic loving people of Hong Kong !!
8
@Ted
Don’t let the Pride Parade yesterday gets to your head. You cannot even stop arms sale to Saudi Arabia
2
Too much. This will not end well.
10
This is going to end badly.
9
Tiananmen 2?
This should be happening in America! Why isn’t it?
48
@Mark. Because Trump won in a free election. The people of HK have no vote.
2
@Mark
Because people with food in their belly and money in their pockets rather sit at home watching TV. The protestors in Hong Kong are all lower class and students because the middle and upper class have better things to do like making sure it doesn’t affect their job/income.
People with no responsibilities and “nothing to lose” love to march and riot. You see that at every riot from France to the Middle East
1
@Mark
60 years of anti-communism, anti-socialism, and anti-unionism, as the Federalist Society took over the government, while the Democrats made compromises with the other side and collected corporate bribes.
3
Hong Kong protesters, you messed up. Didn't I tell you to calm down, to avoid violence? Now you're on your own, there's nothing we can do to help you.
5
All the people fighting for their democracy-and we are giving ours away!
89
@otto NO we are not giving it away. We had an election, there was no clusion in case you haven't heard. We will have another election next year. Show up for that, tell your friends and family to show up. That is how things are settled in democracy. China is not a democracy, that is why they have to take to the streets. In America people take to the streets because they have "perceived" grievances, or they are bored at college.
5
Concerned the too-violent actions by some of the demonstrators have been desired by Chairman Xi and People’s Liberation Army stationed in Hong Kong to justify more hands-on ruling by money hungry Communist oligarchs.
6
A resounding defeat of Trump, by ballot, would be a good sign that democracy is still alive and well. That it has been challenged is obvious, but a solid sign from America would reassure the world.
A more divine signal would be major rain storms on the Fourth of July during his Lincoln Memorial "speech."
26
As JFK so eloquently put it: "if you make peaceful change impossible, you make violent change inevitable." A message that US politicians might want to remember too, given that the US has a legislature and President that most people voted against.
150
@Nullius
I'd like to believe that most Americans have the emotional maturity and intellectual flexibility to deal with a president they abhor. After all, it's not as though Americans don't experience this with every president.
5
@Nullius
Thanks for the advice on democracy from London, a place where the results of a free referendum vote have not been implemented some three years later.
8
@Nullius. Exactly how was our legislature elected if most people voted against it?
Young people of Hong Kong: I am in sympathy with you. Your city is slowly being swallowed by the Chinese mainland totalitarian python.
But violence will be be counter productive. You are naive. The snake will just swallow faster. Troops will replace police. This is not a battle you can win. Violence will simply justify a military takeover of your world. Violence is giving Xi the upper hand. Democracy will be gone...
So what are your weapons to resist being digested along with your history of democracy? Boycotts could send a message. Large peaceful demonstrations demanding more autonomy would gain the world's sympathy. Breaking windows will not.
36
After the peaceful protests despite the provocation from police only two weeks ago, I find it very hard to believe it is local HONG kong citizenry who are causing destruction and not some special ops by the PLA.
19
@Jeff Seems to be two groups some distance apart: 1. bashing down doors and 2. peaceful protest. Unarmed youth I'm not sure? Some backpacks have steel pipes sticking out of them and they have been throwing bricks. Could easily be a sponsored, counter-productive group bashing down doors to persuade observers they are part of 'peaceful' demonstration.
3
Throughout all this, the American president has not weighed in on any calls for the continuity of democracy. I thought that freedom and democracy were staples of the Republican Party.
When it's out of power.
219
The mainland Chinese government broke their promise to keep Hong Kong substantially more open and liberal than the rest of China. I am proud of the protesters that they are resisting this anti-democratic turn of events. Carrie Lam appears to be a puppet leader with a colossal lack of judgment in celebrating the handover anniversary.
It would be ideal if Hong Kong ultimately broke away and became a democratic nation.
Where is the US? Britain, Canada, the EU have all issued formal diplomatic protests. We need to be denouncing the breach of the agreement to leave Hong Kong as-is and the loathsome extradition policy. If we have the chutzpah to slap on tariffs, surely we can decry extradition and eroding freedoms.
Extradition to China is a death sentence, or worse: China has a “justice” system denounced by most human rights organizations.
97
But HK is PRC so what is expected ?
3
@Bohemian Sarah
How did they break that promise?
HK is one the most free wheeling places in the world for business, and least involved government.
There are hardly any taxes collected. There are hardly any civil institutions to protect citizen wellbeing for corporate malfeasance.
There is enormous disparity of wealth, from lack of a social support system and practically non-existent taxation.
HK has been a haven for questionable business practices the world over, since its British playground days.
There is no legal or moral grounds to protest. The time to protest was when the British agreement was drawn up to return HK to China. Nobody said a peep then because everyone knew HK was always part of China.
The gravy train is over, and they knew it all along.
6
The promise made at the restoration of HK to China was threefold:
a. To maintain autonomy in three essential institutions: representative government (promise broken),
b. To keep a free press (fingers crossed),
c. Most important, to have an independent judicial system. Extradition to greater China is fatal blow to the HK judicial system.
As for disparity between rich and poor, I’ll let the rural poor and parent-less rural children speak on the topic of the oligarchs of China.
Facts matter.
4
My heart is with the citizens of Hong Kong. I expect President Xi to crack down, as he now has the excuse to do violently what he's been doing covertly.
Expect Donald Trump to support President Xi in tweets in the name of "law and order".
124
Respect to the Hong Kong people.
Here in the US - let's take their energy as inspiration to our ballot boxes next year.
206
So currently China is trying to ignore the unrest of their citizens in Hong Kong. They are also separating children from their parents and putting them in kindergarten style concentration camps to erase their entire cultural/ethnic identity. Is such extreme communism really the only way China foresees progress? They once again have taken a step forward just to move three steps back, its sickening.
16
@Trey Hilson
Whether IT is "sickening," outrageous, a news item to
be read, as each of US, wherever, move on to read another article, or to whatever else we are doing/
are free enough to choose to do;
is an interpreted challenge (threat?) to President Xi,
people will get hurt.
In many ways.
Some will be traumatized.
In many ways.
Personal accountability for outcomes and
implications affecting people and systems are likely to be
little more than semanticized experiences in a
dynamically-rooted
WE-THEY Chinese controlled reality. Seeded by historical "revisionisms." And IF, and WHEN,
changes come about,
associated with realities' interacting dimensions of uncertainties, unpredictabilities,
randomness and
lack of TOTAL control by the ranges of DOers, and their adequate/
inadequate human and
nonhuman resources, and
powers, descriptive narrative
wil be created.
Transmitted. Believed in. Celebrated. Or not.
By...
Many of the hurt,
temporarily and more permanently in so many ways,
will be forgotten.
A likely consequence of a created and sustained (for a while)
WE-THEY culture.
World.
Reality.
Broken glass will be replaced. Broken peoples???
1
If only you and I were this brave we’d be storming Washington ourselves.
341
@Josh Wilson
If only Americans could actually show some courage and vote in massive numbers to have a government that responds to what we really need, not what suits them.
Home of the brave? Let us find out.
51
@Josh Wilson. For the party in power at the moment, the glory of our nation is that power is also dispersed through the states. Only when the law affects all the states and all the citizens do people get really riled. That is not possible in Hong Kong.
1
@Josh Wilson
To do what, exactly? Dear God. Haven't you been venting enough? We've heard it all nonstop since Trump was elected -- the constant whining and threats.
8
They deserve a lot more support from the rest of the world.
I am behind you!!
80
I am proud of these brave HKers for standing up and fighting for their rights. The mainland should be happy about their cash cow and leave it be. The rest of the world should show more support.
152
@Songbird
Hate to say it, but HK is less of a cash cow compared to other major Chinese Cities (Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Hangzhou, etc). Last I checked, HK accounts for 3% of China GDP from 17% back in 1997.
3
The People's Liberation Army is ready to take over when the violence gets out of hand and the people in HK will then support the PLA - due to the fact that the people always prefer authoritarian action before chaos and anarchy. For the opposition this is not a very nice scenario but the opposition has no good scenario. Either the demonstrations process peacefully and nothing will change - or the violence from part of the demonstrators will after a while trigger support for more robust actions by the state; if necessary by PLA.
1
@Dan
"I know not what course others may take, but as for myself, Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death"
6
@Amy this quote does not fit into a collectivist culture that is Hong Kong and China. It fits well into a Western, individualist mindset though.
1
@Mary You're right. That is why millions of HK people can peacefully demonstrate and none of them brought guns or knives. Only umbrellas to protect against water cannons. They are protesting for their current and hopefully future society. They don't want anyone to die.
2
If the people of Hong Kong and their so called democratic sympathizers have ever expected that the mainland Chinese would never interfere in their former crown colony, I have a bridge to sell them here in Brooklyn.
There is no way that any sovereign government, especially China’s and given how HK was forcibly taken by the British at the conclusion of the Opium Wars as indemnity could expect that the Chinese would not incorporate HK into its nation one day. It’s theirs and was always theirs so the quicker that it’s people realize this, the better.
Also another thing; if you start to throw bricks and spray or douse questionable liquid on police officers, expect a hard and harsh reply. For shame for The NY Times to say erroneously that the police acted harshly. They were doing their duty.
27
Wow! They are chinese thousand years ago. But now they think they are english rather than chinese. This is pathetic!
By the way, nobody among those protesters sees the advantages they received after HK's return to China. They hence become the harbor of financial trading, especially with headquaters of all the state owned banks of China. Mainland China has built 4 nuclear reactors to supply electricity for HK, same as fresh water. Don't even mention that since 1978 mainland developpement has been wide open for Hong Kong businessmen and industries.
If you ever live in Hong Kong, you will understand why most of the protesters are young people under 25 years old. One big reason is that they never lived the decades of colonies.
15
@Peter Will They see both the advantages and disadvantages, but apparently feel that freedom is more important than money.
47
What are you talking about... nobody thinks we’re English. And yes, we’ve received benefits from the Mainland government, but it’s not like it’s a one-way Street. Stop portraying people in Hong Kong as ignorant and unappreciated children.
58
@Jamyang I agree with you that individual freedom is more important. But being in France, I don't understand their purpose if compared with that of Yellow Jackets. But without a prosperous environnement and a stable social structure, freedom is always a friend of chaos and poverty, see afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.
4
Taking away freedoms of small groups is easy, once it starts to hit large amounts of the population, beware. Our own Republican party should reconsider the path they are on, removing rights of LGBTQ and Women.
41
Surely the protesters realise that a direct attack on the legislature building is going to provoke the most robust police response - one that could/will involve a great deal of violence?
I can't imagine that this sort of protest - a violent, frenzied mob - on Capitol Hill or at the gate of the British Parliament, would be dealt with anyway differently.
12
It is a revolt for freedom, for rights, for rule of law against the Beijing Despots! I am with the people of Hong Kong!
18
"Monday’s protests, falling on the 98th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party of China, were a direct challenge to President Xi Jinping and his increasingly authoritarian policies."
The Chinese authorities may not be able to put the genie back in the bottle; the whole world is watching, including and especially inside China. Millions of protestors are not the same as a single student challenging a tank at Tiananmen Square. A crackdown will be bloody and will play very poorly on the world stage. Concessions for Hong Kong will undermine state authority in the rest of China who, having had a taste of economic autonomy, are restless for more. Controlling information is becoming more difficult, if not impossible.
President Xi Jinping will have to walk a fine line to negotiate domestic challenges and international trade issues.
14
Tiananmen Square was far more significant than a man and a tank. The whole of Beijing rose up in support of the students in the square and there were parallel demonstrations in numerous cities throughout China. It’s part of why the terminal reaction from the PRC was so severe. The party quashed the internal calls for party reform and refused to have a real dialogue with the students. This is China’s opportunity to react differently than they did thirty years ago.
15
@Ralph Averill
You speak like a westerner who has not recently visited a foreign country. For many citizens in those countries, prosperity is being driven by government infrastructure programs. Leaders are advocating prosperity through stability and traditional order versus "messy" individual liberties. This is what Putin alluded to when he said the world is rejecting western liberalism (aka our concept of democracy).
Americans are moving in the same direction! The SCOTUS has rejected a bedrock value of 20th century political reform (that grew out of the civil rights movement) the idea our federal government MUST be the ultimate protector of democratic values by ensuring voting is not only protected but also as fair and representative as possible. Plainly, our US elections are not third world, where boundaries can be weaponized to punish dissent or suppress opposition.
When America stopped caring about democracy (we needed allies in the GWOT) we allowed democracy to backslide. HK is just another extreme example. The same is happening here, we just do not want to believe or accept it is.
19
@Ralph Averill
You know you have been brainwashed by CNN and BBC when you believe Chinese citizens will side with protestors waving the Union Jack and not their own government.
You can ask Chinese students around you how many time they have been asked why haven’t they raise to to overthrow Beijing. It always amazes me so many westerners believe Chinese are against their own government.
3
Protest without violence?
6
@chu
During the Civil Rights era in the US under Martin Luther King, or in India under Gandhi, it not only happened, it worked.
I do not pretend to know your situation. I only believe that violence in the end begets more violence. If the India Independence movement can defeat the British Empire without resort to violence, that says something.
But I hope for the very best for Hong Kong in these deeply troubling times.
9
@chu,
Violence is detrimental beyond the obvious ethical issue. I don’t have to tell you that the Chinese army so enormous that they could march on you into infinity. I am sure that they are looking for the slightest justification, including provocateurs taking violent action in your name.
Nonviolent resistance and massive strikes, however, can bring them down and bring you increasing international support and admiration.
Please be encouraged by the revolutions in South Africa, India and throughout Eastern Europe. Protesters often seemed hopelessly out-numbered and governments appeared resolute in suppression... and then a tipping point magically appeared.
I am sure that they are looking for the slightest justification, including provocateurs taking violent action in your name.
There are many of us around the world who support the protests and struggle for a democratic Hong Kong.
2
@chu
The protest will turn violent because that’s by design. The protest was never about democracy or freedom or liberty; the protest is designed to damage China’s image and harm Hong Kong’s economic standing. By turning violent, it forces Beijing to act achieving both goals