Vladimir Putin was a conspirator in the murder of hundreds of innocents.
He needs to face the death penalty, and his government needs to be sanctioned back to the stone age.
2
"In Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin, lying — willfully, methodically, shamelessly — is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing. Russia did not meddle in American elections. Accusations of systematic Olympic doping are malicious foreign inventions. The Novichok nerve agent killers in Salisbury, England, were there only to admire the cathedral’s spire. Russia has nothing to do with the secessionists in eastern Ukraine."
On and on and on...
Don't know how long we can live in this full blown dystopia, this made up alternative existence of mentally unstable Individual1, and his cohorts BFF's where he like every run of the mill, aspiring authoritarian try to brainwash the population every hour of the day.
We might not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but this Russian cruel murder of unsuspected innocent people still reverberates around the world.
4
If giving heavy weapons to reckless actors who then cause civilian deaths is "state-sponsored murder", we must stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia. Saudis' use of our weapons has caused civilian deaths in Yemen, including from airstrikes on hospitals.
Just as the accused Russians “formed a chain” linking Russia to the downing of flight MH17, Americans who keep arming the Saudis link the United States to Yemenis' needless deaths.
If President Trump can enable reckless killing without losing his party's support, his claim that he can shoot someone and not lose votes will edge closer to reality.
5
Who is really "shaping reality to fit political maneuvering"?
The NY Times uncritically accepts the argument that Russia is at fault. But let's not forget that this was a Malaysian Airline and, on Thursday, according to Reuters, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad says Russia is being made a scapegoat for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and questions the objectivity of the investigations into the 2014 disaster:
"We are very unhappy, because from the very beginning it was a political issue on how to accuse Russia of the wrongdoing."
"Even before they examine, they already said Russia. And now they said they have proof. It is very difficult for us to accept that."
I do not expect this inconvenient fact to be reported in the NY Times.
3
The international investigation was a sort of comedy of errors and a classic example of bureaucratic screw ups by the Dutch and Australian authorities. They truly did a disservice to the families of the victims and the world will do nothing to hold Russia to account beyond grandstanding, which will do nothing to prevent such future tragedies happening in the future.
I have a good friend who was covering as a journalist the Russian-loaned troops near the crash site at the time. The investigators didn't even show up because it was a war zone for days. So my friend who is a war journalist and has forensic training was one of the first there on the ground and it was quite easy to see parts of the missile that shot the airline down. So why has it taken five years to bring this evidence (which he provided the investigators sitting in their Kiev hotels) to light?
5
Why wasn't it "state sponsored murder" when we shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, killing over 200 children, women and men?
While no "compensation" could remedy our wrong, what did we do in response?
Why do we demand "reparations" and punishments decades after non-Americans wronged non-Americans, yet find it impossible to remedy or make "reparations" for our own many, many very big wrongs?
Oh I forgot. We're the leader of the free world. The beacon the world looks to. More like a flame thrower.
13
The United States needs to be careful how sanctimonious we get about this horrible tragedy.
On July 3, 1988 Iran Air flight 655 was on what should have been a routine civilian flight from Tehran to Dubai. While over Iranian territorial waters, the Airbus A300 was shot down by two surface to air missiles fired by the US Navy guided missile cruiser Vincennes. The ship somehow mistook the civilian plane for an F-14 fighter.
All 290 on board perished, including 66 children.
There was an investigation. The US apologized. We paid reparations.
The men who made the mistake were not punished; this was viewed as accident, a horribly tragic consequence of necessary military activity. Then, as today, Iran threatened civilian oil transport in the Persian Gulf.
It is noteworthy that after the attack the men of the Vincennes received military honors for their service in the Persian Gulf. The ship's commanding officer, William Rogers, was given the Legion of Merit, for "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." (sources: Wikipedia and the Washington Post)
3
In July 1988 a U.S. guided missile cruiser shot down an Iranian Airbus A300 flying over Iranian territorial waters in the Persian Gulf. The Airbus was flying its normal route. The cruiser had entered Iranian waters after one if it helicopters drew warring fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits. The U.S. government said the cruise mistakenly identified the airliner as an attacking military fighter and misidentified its flight profile as being similar to that of an F-14A Tomcat during an attack run; however, the cruiser's Aegis Combat System recorded the plane's flight plan as climbing (not descending as in an attack run) at the time of the incident. All 289 passengers aboard Iranian Flight 655 were killed.
The United States agreed to pay Iran a $131.8 million settlement, but never formally apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing. No U.S. personnel were charged.
The Ukrainian situation is more complex because both Russians and Ukrainians were involved in the missile launch. Perhaps Russia and Ukraine should pay a settlement too Malaysia.
1
It's a shame that this crime has gone unpunished for so long. When I think about all the awful things that happen in the world... this one has always been one of those incidents that I thought exposed the inhumanity of all of us. It is a terrible illustration of our depravity. There have been worse crimes for sure. The wars in Syria, Yemen and lots of other places killed many more and I certainly don't mean to minimize those crimes against humanity. I think perhaps we have come to accept that these things just happen from time to time because... Well, I don't know why they happen. We just accept that they do. And that's just awful.
Like so many terrorist attacks and mass shootings these days, we hear the news, shake our heads in disgust, then simply move on. We no longer have the ability to process these awful crimes... maybe we never did. It seems likely we never will again.
6
What did we do in 1988 after the US Navy accidently shot down an Iranian passenger plane (Iran Air Flight 655, killing nearly 300 including dozens of children)?
There were some hostilities in the general area, but the plane was over Iranian air space. US Navy Captain Rogers had guided the Vincennes into Iranian waters (and lied about it).
"...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..." but accepted no liability (though orders were given, missiles were fired at the civilian plane) and paid $60+ Million.
No one was called to account - the US answers to no one. Russia will do likewise and we will no doubt criticize them self-righteously and without shame.
66
Seems to me, from what you describe, that the actions of the US government at the time were substantively different from those of the Russian governmen today, which fatally weakens your argument. In Russia there is no free press in any meaningful sense (even if it exists in a legalistic sense, the media is totally managed by the Putin administration), so it's quite simple just to simply deny everything and use it to whip up hatred of the enemy (as we've seen again just this week with Russians accusing western journalists of publishing "fake news" about the forcible expulsion of Roma from their homes).
9
@Michael Ashworth
Seems to me that the Putin-controlled Russian press is not all that different from the Profit-controlled American press. We have a free press in the sense that they are free to pursue readership and whip up hatred if it increases their profits.
Everyone (especially the Russians) knows the Russian press is entirely propaganda. In the US, the media's agendas are not nearly so well accepted, i.e., many people believe their FOX (and to a much, much lesser extent, MSNBC) anchors blindly.
The US Vincennes "incident" statements were grudgingly produced after some arguments but the situation was much more clear cut (as compared to the Ukrainian/Russian act). Also, the Vincennes tragedy occurred prior to the age of FOX/Trump - any guess as to how they would have handled it?
6
Yes, let's demand a tax on fossil fuel imports from the Middle East to pay the cost for our naval and air force protection of oil shipments from the satrap states.
2
But since no strong evidence supports Russian backed rebels shooting down MH17 with a Buk missile, while strong evidence says a fast fighter jet downed it with cannon fire, why would I treat the other accusations about Russia-Putin in this editorial?
As of June 20th 2019, nothing supports the "Russia meddled in the election of 2016" claims either. We've seen years of unsupported assertions about Russian election meddling while never seeing basic evidence like server access logs.
About the only valid claim in this editorial is that Russia has backed ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.
Submitted June 20th 2:47 PM eastern
June 20,2019
Its a war zone. Terrible things happen.
Let the examination disclose the party players and provide judicial determination; so as to avoid such gross savagery
in the name of zones of operations wherever.
1
There is no reason to think the shootdown of this plane was intentional. Anyone involved in providing these weapons to people who were unqualified to use them properly should be prosecuted.
Keep in mind that this accident happened in the context of opposition military forces (after the illegal violent overthrow of a democratically elected government) being attacked militarily by Ukrainian government aircraft. Also keep in mind that when the USS Vincennes accidently shot down an Iranian passenger aircraft full of civilians in 1988, thousands of miles from the nearest US border, illegally in Iranian territorial waters, the people responsible were not only not prosecuted but awarded combat medals.
It also may be worth asking why a passenger airliner was routed over an area of military conflict by Ukrainian traffic controllers. Could someone have intended just this outcome?
1
"The destruction of MH17 was not collateral damage" -- this I don't get. It's not alleged that MH17 was _targeted_. Those who fired the missile may well be guilty of "murder by depraved indifference". But, "The accused did not actually fire the missile". Arming reckless actors _should_ be a crime. But we can't call it that while we keep arming the Saudis.
2
Well one might argue that the men intended to shoot down a Ukrainian military plane and so they did not mean to kill civilians. But then again I don't believe there was a state of war between Ukraine and Russia at the time so it was their intention to murder Ukrainian military personnel. So if you intend to kill somebody but shoot the wrong person isn't that person still murdered?
1
Considering that Ukrainian military was bombing rebels with intent to kill, wouldn't it be a case of self-defense?
1
Wasn’t the Vincennes shoot down of an Iranian airliner state sponsored murder.
4
Americans should remember how how they behaved over the Iranian airliner they had shot down and then explain to us why the Russians should be holier than thou.
2
Thank you. Let justice roll...
Speaking of being called to account: Iran Air Flight 655 anyone?
Exactly.
Question:
The article states: At the time, Ukrainian separatists had been targeting government aircraft at altitudes only slightly lower than those used by commercial jetliners.
So was the Malaysian jet caught in the crossfire? And that they were not targeting that jet? I don't understand if this could be intentional or an unintended target?
1
Vladimir Putin, a man Donald Trump respects.
1
Ok. Put boss Putin on trial.
1
what about motive? does anything establish someone deliberately targeted the airliner? surely there is plenty of culpability, but putting dangerous weapons in the hands of the incompetent and the insane is a recipe for tragedy even if there is no direct intent. you get frenzied shootings in public places, colossal blunders like the one in Ukraine, the debacle of Yemen, and the next chapter of insanity at 1600.
1
This article doesn't mention one significant piece of info: Buk missile serial number.
And serial number indicates that since 1986 (year of production in Russia) the missile was moved to Ukraine and never left the country since then.
Ergo, it was Ukrainian Army unit that shot down the plane.
@Alex Why would the Ukrainian Army shoot at planes? The separatists they're fighting have no planes.
With a U.S. President that seems oddly and dangerously beholden to Vladimir Putin, I'm not optimistic about our current administration doing anything to punish Russia. It's a situation I never dreamed would happen here.
1
This is the same Russia and the same Vladimir Putin that Trump and his Republican base prefers over US intelligence agencies, the CIA, the FBI and especially Democratic leadership in America. So much for the republic and the partnership of e pluribus unum.
3
Some background
Eastern Ukraine is mainly Russian-speaking. Since Maidan brought intransigent Ukrainian nationalists to power five years ago,Russian-speakers have been the victims of a bigoted campaign to suppress their language, and force them to affect being Ukrainian.
This situation is so intentionally cruel that Russian-speaking school children are forbidden to use Russian in class.
That is, the situation is what would obtain in Canada, were French banned as an official language. Only worse, since Russian-speakers are a third of the society.
The Times' "separatists" are not troublemakers, intervening in a reasonable democratic republic. What is going on in Eastern Ukraine is a form of Ethnic Cleansing. It is to be regretted that the Western media ignore this reality.
Russia provided a missile to the "separatists". So? We provided hand-held missiles to the Afghan guerrillas in the 1980s. In the era of Afghan freedom fighter Bin Laden, we sweated having one of them bring down an airliner.
Was Russia interested in killing a planeload of Dutch and other civilians? Nobody has suggested this. Were the "separatists"? Again, nobody has suggested it.
So, how about this. Russia supplied a missile capability to the "separatists". These were incompetent enough to shoot down a Malaysian plane.
A crime? Sure, manslaughter, as mentioned below.
Like the shooting down of a Libyan airliner by Israel in 1973, or the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty in 1967.
18
@alyosha The ridiculous lies about persecution of Russian-speakers in Ukraine grow tiresome. Not only is Russian not outlawed anywhere in the country, the Ukrainian government continues to offer Russian-language schools as an option for students. But neither students nor their families need "affect" being Ukrainian; they are Ukrainian. Unlike their neighbors to the north, Ukrainians understand that language does not dictate identity.
6
@alyosha makes some interesting points that I have not heard before. I would like to see some analysis on whether or not he is coming from truth; even a truth. Ethnic cleansing.? Children forbidden to speak Russian? hhmmmmm?
2
@alyosha The trials of these individuals will establish or not whether murder or manslaughter is the crime they committed. What will not be resolved in these trials is whether the Russian government has systematically militarily intervened in the affairs of a sovereign neighboring country which had not engaged in military actions against Russia. Yes, as you say, the United States provided missiles to bin Laden and others fighting against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. As misguided as that assistance turned out to be, it cannot reasonably be compared to the Russian government's unlawful attempt to seize territory Putin thinks should belong to Russia.
4
Moving on from the accused, I’d like to look at the real responsible for this and it’s Uncle Sam again.
Quite simply if you draw a parallel between Cuba and the Ukraine you get the same response.
Cuba, the US will go nuts if you install missiles and too much military so close to the US border (wall ?).
Ukraine, Russia will go nuts if missiles can be installed at its border and losing the Crimea, Russia’s biggest European military port is unthinkable.
Yet this is what Uncle Sam was trying to do.
Do you have anybody in your state department who thinks about consequences, in this case a planeload of civilians?
14
It's funny when Russia does it Westerners lose their minds and call Russia the most evil country that does anything to get their what they want but Iran Flight 655 was downed in Iranian Airspace by the U.S. Navy and the people that did it received medals from the United States Government. No one holds the U.S. government responsible for that or vilifies them either. Why with the double standards ?? if you are going to blame Russia for this then also keep the same energy and blame the U.S. for State sponsored terror being committed by their proxies in the middle East e.g. The Saudi War in Yemen.
35
@Alexander
From the Wikipedia article about Iran Flight 655:
"As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims."
Not such a big difference after all. Who thinks it is justice when innocents are killed and those responsible refuse to even apologize, or take legal responsibility and simply pay to have the problem go away?
22
@Citizen 1 I don't recall Captain William C. Rogers III being charged for criminal negligence causing death.
11
@Paul Central CA, age 59
US paid money to make the problem go away a la Harvey Weinstein.
Why is this an Editorial piece? Are the details regarding the Russian-backed attack on the plane confirmed facts, or not? Assuming they are, where is the Times coverage on this update?
1
Was it state-sponsored murder? Under the realpolitik of the current regime, it depends on which state did it.
If this crime were committed by Iran, Nortth Korea, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., it would have been declared state sponsored terror immediately.
Committted by Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, or any other nation that we don't want to offend, we look the other way.
Which devalues any declaration by our American government that any incident is state-sponsored terrorism, or is not. When our judgments are based on whether we benefit or not, they are no longer fair and objective, and no longer trustworthy.
46
I agree with the main argument: that Realpolitik (i.e. lucrative trade deals) always trumps ethical considerations, but I wouldn't put Russia in the same category as China and Saudi Arabia, at least not from a US standpoint. As to why Trump does this is a bit of a mystery (the answer to which ultimately only he has and he's not telling anyone).
5
And of course, we never would admit that the US involved in the same type tactics
How much more of this is the west going to take before putting Putin in his place?
1
Has trumps obfuscation of the murders begun yet?
1
With Putin's puppet in the White House, it's wishful thinking that Russia will be forced to pay for any of its transgressions.
2
Really? This qualifies as "state-sponsored murder"? Iraq War, anybody??
1
What a joke. Dutch prosecutors holding a show trial in absentia vs. the GRU. Pass the popcorn, please. And the polonium.
2
The opening sentence:
"In Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin, lying — willfully, methodically, shamelessly — is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing."
Could just as easily be:
"In Donald Trump's White House, lying — willfully, methodically, shamelessly — is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing."
2
The entire first paragraph reads like many articles about Trump's lies and our country.
1
Had the New York TImes' editorial team been intellectually honest, they would have also discussed the downing of the Iran Air Flight 655, that killed 290 civilians, including 66 children, by the US navy. The cold hard truth in global affairs is that the US does not have a moral high ground. Nobody does. That's the unfortunate truth.
5
It should be noted that not everyone in the world agrees with The Times' editorial board's assessment:
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/06/20/world/asia/ap-as-malaysia-downed-plane.html
1
As a person who believes we should work together to create a better world for humans and all of the planet, I desire the following.
The facts should be exposed in a public forum where the world agrees that they are facts.A court is an excellent vehicle for that.
The Russians who gave the missiles to people who were not trustworthy should be held accountable. The Russians should apologize to the world and make reparations to Malaysia.
The people who fired the missile that brought down the plane should be imprisoned for their careless disregard of life and wanton destruction of it as an example to all war fighters who think civilian life is irrelevant to their activity.
None of this is likely to happen. As Trump might say if he had a conscience, Sad.
I think the answer to your question is simple: no.
It was not state sponsored murder.
More along the lines of manslaughter.
9
@David Martin, as I understand it, causing death can be considered manslaughter if it's an unforseeable accident without criminal negligence. People have been convicted of murder for conducting an unarmed robbery/burglary in which the victim kills someone! Seems like there are a lot of ways that Russian involvement/responsibility might cross over from manslaughter to murder. I wonder what about it seems to you like a simple and clear case of manslaughter.
16
@David Martin Sure, we could let this discussion devolve into a conversation about whether this was murder or one of the lesser included offenses. But the type of homicide is a fact-based determination, based upon a lot more evidence than can be relayed in a short article.
Whether it was murder or not will depend upon the Russians' intent and participation in achieving that intent. At common law, a conspirator in committing murder is just as guilty as the person that pulls the trigger.
But the underlying fact remains: the Russians are willing to do anything, commit any crimes, and kill whomever they chose to achieve their ends. The Russian government is, in essence, a criminal enterprise.
And our putative president can find no guilt in them.
102
@Mikey
I think David meant that there was no intent to hit the aircraft, the missile was filed in error or misunderstanding. It was meant for military aircraft.
1
By all accounts the downing of the airliner was a mistake by ill-trained Russian and Ukrainian soldiers who should never have been given anti-aircraft missiles. I recall reading reports of radio intercepts that suggested Russian commanders were very angry with the men responsible. That said, it was still murder of civilians, and Putin's lies and denials made it state-sponsored murder.
8
@Christy How does one mistakenly move a missile from one country to another and mistakenly target an aircraft and then mistakenly remove the evidence?
7
While I hope the victims receive compensation, this is a farce. Where was the international community when Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine? The US wouldn't even give anti armor weapons to allow for defense. A lot of press conferences and words followed with no real action. Russia kept control of the conquered territory as well. Bush allowed this in the Georgian conflict as well. Bottom line, the international community, Europe in particular, are toothless cats unable to even defend the international order. Do you really think Putin would have continued his offensive if strong action against it occurred? Putin knows Europe is weak because the don't have the resolve to punch the bully in the nose
Also, this isn't murder. A Russian military asset targeted a plane and shot it down at an altitude near where prior Ukrainian airstrikes were occurring. This was a mistake. Russia should accept responsibility and pay just as the US did with Iran. This is just a show trial to illustrate how involved Russia was in Ukraine. The fact that Russia will not accept responsibility is the only fact to be proven. Europe legitimized the battlefield by doing nothing to stop Russian from invading. Russia will spin this trial into a win if it is conducted in way designed to embarrass Russia.
1
You are right the international community should condemn Georgian attack. on Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. Failure to do so clearly showed that World doesn't care about security of Russia and push Russia to fend for itself. And before demanding apology we should see the evidence from independent investigators, not from the biased one.
1
As usual with Russia, it's almost impossible to distinguish between active malevolence and alcohol-fueled incompetence.
1
As with America, you never sure it was tragic mistake or murderous intend
1
Very interesting. As I write this, the article was posted over an hour ago and yet there is only 3 comments. Like last weeks articles about Hong Kong not many people seem to care. It is very sad that we Americans only care about our own lives. Just like our isolationist President. Sad.
The one indisputable fact about this Story, is that a whole lot of INNOCENT people LOST their LIVES, on that horrible Day.
The real PROBLEM, is that is that this HORROR will continue to PREVAIL until we learn how to STOP-IT.
This is a World of Gangsters, and when dealing with Criminals, NOTHING should come as a SHOCK.
Please Don't get me WRONG, but I'm NOT (only) talking about RUSSIA here.
We all KNOW, who the Biggest Gangster IS...………
In today's NYT, the next to last paragraph of the article '4 charged in Downing of Jet...' states: "In early 2014, mass protests in Ukraine forced out a pro-Russia president, Viktor Yanukovich, opening the door to leaders that wanted to pull away from Moscow and forge closer ties to the West."
This is not true, according to President Obama. He stated in a CNN interview with Fareed Zakaria in Feb 2015 that 'We (the Obama admin) brokered a deal and then Yanukovich fled'. In essence, President Obama was admitting the U.S. interfered in Ukrainian internal affairs and installed a government friendly to the west. Then-President Obama even said this coup put Putin 'off-balance', and that is the main reason Russia annexed Crimea, not that that was any 'grand plan' of Putin's.
1
So, what are the prosecutors saying was Putin's motive in shooting down the Malaysian airliner? Was he hoping that the Ukrainians would be blamed? It's not clear from this article.
Shaping reality to fit political maneuvering has a long tradition in the Kremlin, and unfortunately the practice is gaining popularity in the White House and among would-be authoritarians the world round. That makes it all the more important that institutions dedicated to the rule of law, to reliance on fact and to the primacy of truth should resolutely push back.
http://www.translation.pk/russian-translation.html
People looking for a smoking gun should consider information that the rebel group itself posted on social media and what happened thereafter. According to Wikipedia:
"Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatist militia, claiming responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 military transporter near Torez. This post was removed later the same day, and the separatists then denied shooting down any aircraft."
On 22 August a former rebel Anton Raevsky ("Nemetz") said in an interview in Rostov-on-Don that (Igor Girkin) and his supporters are being cleansed from DNR by FSB because of this insufficient compliance with Kremlin's policy on the republic.
It is funny, how last year we heard about 'fake news' on the social media and yet the prosecutor use it to make his case. How do we know it is not fake?
"lying — willfully, methodically, shamelessly — is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing..." how accurate a description of Trump's White House. No wonder he is such ardent admirer of Putin.
What about calling Russia a state-sponsor of terrorism as well, or instead of a state-sponsor of murder?
The investigation into MH17 is compromised because a potential perpetrator was part of the investigating Team - that is the Ukrainian Fascist Government. They have the same Russian made missiles that were used to bring down the plane and indeed a Russian investigation traced the missile used to the Ukrainian Government. Since the Dutch investigation is compromised that leaves the field to the Russian investigation.
4
Yes, it was state sponsored murder. This time, it was Russia. But before we get all high and mighty, Trump has turned a blind eye to our own murderous despot in MBS.
Yes. It was murder. The Russian Federation is a terrorist state. The Russian Federation is a greater threat to the West than is Iran.
Putin must be driven from office and tried for murder in the International Criminal Court.
The Russian Federation must be dismembered. So-called Russia must be reduced once more to the medieval Principality of Muscovy.
1
Why wasn't it "state sponsored murder" when we shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, killing over 200 children, women and men?
While no "compensation" could remedy our wrong, what did we do in response?
Why do we demand "reparations" and punishments decades after non-Americans wronged non-Americans, yet find it impossible to remedy or make "reparations" for our own many, many very big wrongs?
Oh I forgot. We're the leader of the free world. The beacon the world looks to. More like a flame thrower.
As long as the U.S. continues to refuse to ratify the treaty known as the "Rome Accord" of the International Criminal Court (ICC), we have no moral right to call for international pressure against the Russians. If you wish to build an international system of justice, then by all means join. We certainly did support the prosecution of the Nazis at Nuremberg. Otherwise prosecuting any other country's war criminals is just an exercise in hypocrisy.
After all, there are plausible arguments to be made that George W. used systematic disinformation to convince not only the Americans but the rest of the world that there were WMD in Iraq--a patently false conclusion used to justify an illegal invasion.
1
As with many comments, I agree that Russia needs to be held responsible and at the same time understand that this precedent should open the door for prosecutions of civilian deaths caused by the US or actors of the US.
1
What the editorial reveals is that none of the suspects had anything to do with the actual shooting down of the aircraft which appears to be like the shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the American navy (Iranian Air flight 655) -no charges of murder. In this case the suspects, and Russia as a state, are being held accountable because the missile had its origin in Russia and was part of a weapons shipment made by Russia. On this basis the US and the officials involved with transferring or selling weapons to Saudi Arabia could be charged with murder for civilian deaths in Yemen. We live in a world system where waging war and the killing of civilians is part and parcel of maintaining the international globalized capitalist system and its search for markets, territorial influence, and raw materials. The Dutch are NATO members and are themselves aiding and abetting the murder of civilians. For one group of murderers to single out another group for special condemnation is simply typical cold war propaganda. It is really a sideshow to distract us from the real causes of these tragedies which is the basic drive of the imperialist monopoly capitalist world order, dominated by the world’s largest and most aggressive military power the US, to impose its economic way of life on those who reject it and strive to be as independent of it as possible. The origins of the Russian missile and its tragic deployment are as much to be found in the corridors of the Pentagon as the Kremlin.
13
@Dr. Scotch A commendable attempt at deflection. However, the BUK missile launcher was not part of a "shipment." It was transported across the border from Russia into a sovereign country for the purpose of doing harm to that country. That is the definition of an invasion, and renders moot the rest of your spin.
The Trump era has caused me to become more jaded than ever. So, unfortunately, I believe Mr. Friedman has fast forwarded to provide us with the end result; namely, "Moscow, of course, denies it all, and will continue to act as a victim of Western intrigue, trusting that Western governments will make noise for a time and then go back to doing business with Russia." In fact, as evidenced by natural gas pipelines, etc., we are already there as the minimal sanctions imposed on individuals within the Putin's orbit will do little to inhibit Russia's future bad behavior.
1
"An open trial is how just societies judge those who violate the rule of law..."
This line could well appear in a different editorial with a more contemporary headline and a more local byline.
2
Realistically when you examine all the facts that circumstances that surrounded the even you must admit that Ukraine bears some responsibility for the disaster.
Th Ukrainian were well aware that the rebels had the capability to bring down a plan flying at 30,000 ft. Several weeks previous, there rebels had shot down a Ukrainian transport plane that as flying at 30K feet.
Despite this knowledge Ukrainian officials did not issue a warning or reroute planes to the north out of war zone. Planes were not rerouted to the northern route until after disaster with MH17
Certainly Russia deserves some blame for supply in the BUK to the rebels. But Ukraine does not have clean hands either. They knew that any plane flying over the war zone could be shot down. Yet they made no effort to reroute aviation away from the war zone.
5
Where are the EU (Germany and France) declarations of support for the Dutch indictment? Does the German Green Party (now with most public support of any party) acknowledge the Russian attack? In the past they have been most reluctant to confront Putin. Will Germany proceed with their latest North Sea pipeline that will enrich Russia and isolate Eastern European EU nations? Now that they may lead the next German government it is time for the Greens to face reality.
4
@Donna Gray. There are serious doubts about the credibility of the process that led to these indictments. They are politically tainted and you may see caution being exercised by other Governments who are not necessarily vassals of the American Empire.
5
@Robert Jennings We;ll sure see caution being exercised by the GOP, vassals of Putin. They're more likely to blame Iran or China before daring to say anything bad about Vlad.
@Robert Jennings- Seriously, when did the Dutch become US vassals?
This statement just confirmed the Russian claim that this is not a real trial but a political show. In order to prove that the tragedy was a state-sponsored murder, the prosecution should show that the plane was the specific target, so far it was not the case. We haven't heard what would be a motive of such target. The fact that the prosecutor barely mention that was the area of the military conflict where the Ukrainian Government used the planes to bomb the population just shows dishonesty of the prosecution and the court. It confirms the Russian fears that this court could not be objective, and Russia is correct not to send accused to this court.
5
@yulia
So if there was no intent to blow up the plane, there can be no guilt. I love the way the Russians think.
When the passenger plane was shot by the US, it wasmistake, when the plane was, maybe, shot by pro-Russian forces under similar circumstances it is murder. I guess every nationality has its own logic.
Of course, it was murder. But murder is part of the thinking of authoritarian leaders, who do anything they feel they can get away with to stay in power.
4
Far from being a matter of grave concern or the Russia specific problem, the state sponsored murders and crimes are now becoming a new normal in the fast deteriorating international situation as to be illustrated by the recent state directed murders by North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and of course Russia. Again, when the US head of the state himself welcomes Russian invasion on the US democracy and views the Russian strongman Vladimir Putin as his inspiration, or the world leaders across the world are dreaming of becoming like Putin, who will dare enforcing the murder sentence sought by the international prosecutors in the Russia conspired downing of the MH17 flight five years ago?
7
State sponsored murder is just a tendentious way of saying 'war'. This incident happened in the midst of active combat in eastern Ukraine.
4
@Molly ONeal
What’s your point? A civilian plane is shot down during a war gets a pass because it’s a war? In this “undeclared war”, in which Russian army units are trying to bite off a chunk of Ukraine, no one is guilty?
@Lynn Farley
Are you saying that civilian planes are protected in a war zone? How?
While the Times describes this indictment as being brought by an "international team of prosecutors" it's actually being brought by the Dutch prosecutors.
They have jurisdiction since the attack was committed against its airline, but this is precisely the type of case that should be filed by the International Criminal Court rather than a state court that is also a NATO member.
Was it "state sponsored murder?" The court should decide. But was the attack by the USS Vincines on an Iranian airliner that killed 290 passengers state murder as well?
Not according to the US Navy who claimed that the airliner was flying outside of prescribed civilian air corridors, but it wasn't. And the the passenger jet didn't have a signal beacon identifying itself. But the facts show that it did.
There was no ICC when this incident took place. But would we have accepted a verdict from an Iranian court?
The answer is obvious and Russia will not accept a Dutch verdict. This is why there is an ICC and why the US should be a signatory to its jurisdiction treaty.
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@Drspock
Just curious, did today's investigative technology exist 31 yers ago? It may be incumbent on independent groups like news gathering organizations and others to use the modern resources available to establish facts the primacy of truth (NYT's phrase) and the rule of law. We should always be skeptical of claims by rogue governments and question authority of legitimate ones. It may be too late for things that happened in the past, but it should be the goal moving forward.
@Drspock research that led to the conclusions and the four men now named suspect were led bij JIT - Joint Intervention Team.
JIT comprises officials from the Dutch Public Prosecution Service and the Dutch police, along with police and criminal justice authorities from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine.
Court will be set in The Netherlands, since the majority of the murdered victims were Dutch. Funny you mention the ICC: US (which has nothing to do with this case) does barely corporate with the ICC and besides, also this body is located in The Netherlands.
1
@Drspock
It wasn't a Dutch airliner, but a Malaysian one. But Malaysia is not a NATO member. Can you see the thread here?
1
Would it be possible to conduct an investigation into the numbers of unintended victims of US drone strikes? Or is that somehow "different"?
9
To all the Russia-Putin defenders commenting here, re-read the first paragraph. All of those incidents are coincidental, right?
What's Russian for "MAGA guys?" Many in the U.S. have the same mindset about Putin...he's always the innocent victim being falsely accused of wrongdoing.
Both the U.S. and Russia have had corrupt leaders who have killed innocent people. The way to fix it is to get rid of the corruption...in both countries.
8
The plane belonged to Malaysian Airlines. Accordingly, Malaysia IS one of the affected parties. There were Malaysian victims. Therefore, the Malaysian PM's sobering comments and doubts on the objectivity of the entire investigation should be mandatory reading for everyone, including the Times' Editorial Board.
5
Yes. It was murder. The Russian Federation is a terrorist state. The Russian Federation is a greater threat to the West than is Iran. Putin must be driven from office and tried for murder in the International Criminal Court.
6
Clearly and act of war.
2
How many people were persecuted when the US accidentally shot down an Iranian passenger plane in 1988? None. If it was a Russian Buk that shot down the MH17 it was in a very similar situation.
Sure, you can discuss the legality of the Russian operation in Ukraine. But you can do the same about the US role in 1988. It won't make much difference: this is about people were just obeying orders.
The real questions - what the investigation doesn't address - concerns the role of Ukraine. The role of Ukraine in the investigation has been downright obstructive. They refused to release the conversations of the plane with the control tower. They refused to release radar images. They forced the other countries involved to sign an agreement to disclose no information without prior consent from Ukraine. They never explained why this plane was led over the war zone while most other planes weren't. Were Ukrainian war planes active at the time of incident? Had Ukraine has Buk missiles stationed in the region? Ukraine gives contradicting declarations. Just a few days before the disaster rebels accused Ukraine of using civilian planes as cover for their war planes.
And then there is the black box. According to the investigation the last 20 seconds before the plane was hit show only silence. Yet according to the investigation the missile came from the front side in full view of the pilots. Malaysia has asked to review the blackbox but it isn't allowed.
4
So Putin's army shoots down a civilian plane, killing 298 innocents, and it is international condemnation, rightfully so.
But what about the tens of thousands of people who died in this senseless conflict fuelled by Putin's sense of grandeur? Are their lifes less worthy of condemnation and outrage?
And what about the casualties in Chechnya, Georgia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Syria…? Here Russia's army shamelessly targets civilians, including hospitals and first responders, and supports El-Hassad in his use of chemical weapons on his own population.
7
@SJP
Europe? I don't think so. Maybe 'Ukraine' - but that's not Europe.
What about the victims of American strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Serbia? Why should we treat these killings any different?
1
Not to seem caricature-ish, but this does seem to be a classical prosecution based on our RICO co-ordinations of more monolithic…what could be more monolithic and yet diverse than the Russian personality…activities of organized crime organizations.
So, while international Law Enforcement may seem in only small ways to be coordinated, it seems to be in several cases…such as FIFA mistakes being exposed by smaller conferences normal activities. I am encouraged that this development in what might have been an international War Crimes trial has managed to stretch its arm of justice to include some catastrophic incident of collateral damage that we must not overlook.
2
With Britain out of the E.U., France a shaky ally, and the U.S. abandonment of European defense, the way is clear for a German nuclear deterrence force.
Aren't all wars state sponsored murders? Whether it's killing of 'enemy' soldiers who are mostly young men and women, or killings of civilians, who are cunningly called collateral damage.
9
Shooting down a commercial jetliner was just practice for Russia. They are more than capable of taking down the United States as well. They operate under a cloak of disinformation with the help an agent in the White House and financial entanglements through Congress and The Pentagon.
Stock options granted to former defense secretaries by the UAE are all of a piece and will end in war with Iran if we don’t wake up to what’s happening to our country.
It all starts in the Kremlin.
11
Murder is an intentional illegal killing of a human being by an individual under the law of a nation state.
If any nation state sanctions the killing of any persons within it's jurisdiction it is not murder.
That is the case with the downing of this airplane and the killing of Jamal Khashoggi as well.. Under international law it can however be a war crime.
That was the lesson of the post World War II war crime trials at Nuremberg and Tokyo. That is the lesson of the international criminal courts which nations must voluntarily agree have jurisdiction over them. America and Israel have not agreed to submit themselves to this system.
4
@Blackmamba. What? In neither case that you mentioned was the killing done in that state's jurisdiction; MH17 was shot down over Ukraine by Russia, and Khashoggi was killed in Turkey by Saudi Arabia. Therefore, the governments of both SA and Russia committed murder.
And why are you bringing the US and Israel into this? Whatever crimes, real or imagined, they have committed are irrelevant to this article.
We seem to have short memories when it comes to errors/mistakes/murder on the part of the U.S.
On July 3, 1988 the naval ship USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian aircraft killing 290 people. We let that "mistake" slide, no real punishment and certainly no real news coverage of a significant strike against a foreign state.
Being a world power involves muscle, being an honest and fair democracy involves accepting our mistakes and punishing those involved.
Putin is just following the U.S lead of, lye, deny, and forget.
If we want to see the true killer in this case, look at a picture of Ronald Regan.
Don't get on your moral pedestal until you've proven that you belong there.
11
@William. That is flat-out incorrect. The Vincennes tried multiple times to contact the plane on both military and civilian frequencies, but the Iranians never responded. Too, the Iranian Navy had just fired on a US helo, so people were a bit tense. Third, the US issued a formal apology and paid compensation (a bit over $200K per passenger), so this is not at all comparable to the destruction of MH17.
Talk about short memories; you seem to have forgotten the Soviets shooting down Korean Air 007 in 1983, then tried to cover it up. (Russia didn't release the black box until the mid 1990s.) Russia also tried to blame the US for "provoking" the incident.
Last, you seem to be confused; it is Trump who is following Putin and his tactics. You can get off your pedestal now.
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@Danny
'Russia also tried to blame the US for "provoking" the incident.'
And rightly so, Chuckie. There is absolutely no way to explain how a routine commercial flight could veer off course by 350+ miles and intrude into another country's airspace, close to a sensitive air defense installation and when intercepted and instructed to land, it instead suddenly changes course, trying to 'escape'. And quite coincidentally, a US spy plane, an RB71 is flying at the same time at high altitude over the same area, as if to check the Soviets' reaction?
If the KAL crew was totally innocent, they could/should have landed, as instructed, the plane would have been searched and if nothing found, they all would have been released unharmed.
Answer this question: what do you think the US would have done in a similar situation?
3
The Iranian Airbus shootdown by the Vincennes was a mistake and we admitted it. I believe the MH17 shootdown was also a mistake on that the battery crew most likely thought the aircraft was a Ukrainian military aircraft. The difference is we admitted our role, apologized, and paid compensation. Russia shooting down Korean Airlines 007 was another case of shooting first and not thinking.
4
The civilized nations of the world need to take a much harsher stand against Russia. They have become a rogue state that acts brazenly in defiance of long-held norms and civilized agreements, while Lavrov et al sneer in our faces.
Sounds depressingly like the Trump administration. Further evidence that there is a playbook at work here.
Kudos to the Dutch for standing with integrity. Whither NATO?
14
@Bohemian Sarah
There is a very expansive playbook operating here and under Trump and no one (GOP and Trump cohorts) seems to be minding U.S. interests and security. Money is involved as well as chicanery. Putin and his oligarch buddies have fingers in every potentially strategic and tactical aspect of eastern Europe and probably beyond. Look at who Trump expels from our Russia experts. Might as well be a Putin wish list.
Russia became as civilised as all these civilised countries as Europe and the US who invaded other countries, supported the invasion of other countries, accepted annexion of territories. It is difficult to believe in the rules of laws when the judges themselves break the rules with impunity.
2
@Bohemian Sarah The President and his GOP Senate flunkies will do what they can to destroy NATO and help Putin. Probably in Rump's next term (win or lose in November, either way, he's not leaving the White House).
“The destruction of MH17 was not collateral damage in some nasty conflict, declared Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor of the Netherlands, but murder committed by men acting on Moscow’s orders”. This is poorly phrased. The implication is that they were knowingly shot down a passenger plane rather than mistakenly shot it down. Criminally responsible, sure, but presumably an error rather than deliberately targeting civilians.
1
Is it intentional or an accident? It is very difficult to prove it is intentional. In case of Khashoggi, it is clearly a state sponsored murder with all the evidence to prove it. The world community couldn’t do anything to punish Salman. There won’t be anything that could be done to Putin either. All the drama in international court is just that, a drama. Similarly, as long as McConnell and the Republicans protect Trump, impeachment proceedings against Trump is waste of time and Nancy Pelosi has recognized that and taken a more effective path of investigations. For those who make their living by lying, the truth is fake. We don’t need to go to Moscow to find who lives by lies, there is one in our own backyard and he goes by the name Trump.
8
Everyone in the world knows that ex-KGB Colonel Vladimir Putin okayed use of Russian AA missiles in Ukraine, that led to the downing of the civilian airliner MH17 the loss of 298 lives.
Putin did this, because he knows his Russian subjects will tolerate and applaud his aggressive attempts to rebuild the territories that the USSR lost in the early 1990's. Russians have a long history of portraying themselves as misunderstood victims.
9
It is because they probably are, and these accusations are just another proof.
I have a question for all those who insist similar US crimes must be part of this discussion. The US is not driving this prosecution; it is by international bodies, especially the Dutch, for obvious reasons.
Why are you compelled to make your protest about US double standards, sanctimony, etc. as if it's pertinent and important? It's not, it's a distraction.
Whose purposes are served by such deflection and distraction?
8
@MoreRadishesPlease You make a good point. There was one American, I believe, but mainly Dutch, then 44 Malaysians, 38 Australian citizens and residents, 11 Indonesians ...
One of the Australians was a person I knew briefly. Just enough of an acquaintance to make me realize that the pursuit of some kind of justice, any kind of justice, is an imperative for family.
Probably the best that can be hoped for in the end is that Russia pay some money, on their own account and on behalf of the separatists, and issue a statement of regret, but not responsibility. The Vincennes incident, at least, may be a guide to how it might play out.
1
There is no protest about the double standards of the US in this case, it is about double standards of the international community dominated by the Western countries who didn't charge the US with murder when it downed the passenger plane, but yet they charge Russians even although it happened under similar circumstances.
1
@MoreRadishesPlease
The reason is simple. The US can't demand others to behave according to certain norms she breaches all the time.
Like the Orwellian 'more equal, than others' pig.
"A day after MH17 was shot down ... the United States government concluded from available evidence that the plane had been brought down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile"
Sorry, but both sides of this conflict had the same types of weapons. Designed in the USSR. Same types of guns, same types of missiles and so on. The BUK missile system is also a soviet era weapon. Ukraine has BUKs in service too. So how, only a day after MH17 was shot down, could the US government conclude that it was "Russian-made"?
2
@Alex.Msk
Maybe because it was fired from territory that was occupied by Russian forces?
4
@Alex.Msk I'd suggest you re-read the article; mobile-phone intercepts were mentioned, amongst other sources.
3
It was fires from the front lines where it was difficult to determine whom belong the territory at the particular moment.
Hopefully the Russians will be represented in the court. If not the trial is simply one-sided accusations without any opportunity for dissent. From the beginning Russia's evidence has been ignored. The Investigation is now several years old and the events are beginning to be blurred. But one fact is obviously unfair: the Ukraine should not be on the investigation team since it is a prime suspect. This taints any conclusions and gives rise to appearance of bias.
5
You might have spared a column inch to Russia's contention that the guilty missile was indeed brought into Ukraine by its military--but in the 1980s, according to documents furnished by the manufacturer. The nations making the accusation may ignore that evidence because they excluded Russia from their investigation and are all, especially the Kiev authorities representing Ukraine, its political adversaries. And your editorial and reporting ignores it because your conscious role is to give their verdict an influential voice.
4
You ignore the phone intercepts and the area from which the missile was fired.
We don't know how clear were these intercepts, or if they are real, not planted
What responsibilities do the civilian aviation authorities now have in these circumstances?
There was a live shooting war happening. Russia was busy pretending it wasn’t involved but it was and it was no secret that the ragtag troops in eastern Ukraine were getting lots of Russian armaments.
In my view, the primary responsibility for the deaths is Russia’s for introducing this weapon into these circumstances.
That said I hope the civilian aviation authorities have introduced protocols to re-route passenger traffic away from conflict areas. Hindsight is 100 percent I realize but it does seem not smart that passenger planes were routed over known conflict areas
9
@Anne
Please. The BUK was a Soviet-era missile, used by the Soviet Air Force throughout the USSR. Ukraine had them, Russia had them, but with one important distinction: the one that took down the plane was no longer used the the Russians and actually decommissioned years before the incident.
2
@waldo Didn't know that BUKs were old weapons widely available throughout the former Soviet Union. This seems to reinforce the point that the point that civil aviation authorities need protocols to steer passenger planes away from flying above known conflict areas.
The prosecution has charted out a way to trace responsibility back to Russia.
Let's see how persuasive that is when presented in open court.
@Anne Not too far from the border between Ukraine and the Rebel state, there is apparently a warehouse which stores mostly old Soviet equipment. This is were the BUK came front.
Bellingcat had in the past posted photos of the BUK when it arrived and when it left. They posted lots of photos and they have one that shows the BUK exiting and returning to that ware house.
All that gunner saw was the silhouette of the plan and he locked on as the target. Just few days earlier the Rebels had shot down a Ukrainian military transport which can fly at 30k feet. The military transport and MH17 have the same silhouette.
How utterly frustrating that it has taken five long years to get to this point, and that it still feels like those who have been charged are somehow scapegoats for their higher ups who truly directed the actions undertaken.
As your Editorial Board has noted, there have been a long series of heinous, if not criminal, acts by the Russian state under the leadership of Vladimir Putin. The default response under his leadership is to disavow responsibility with disingenuous fictions.
Would that someone would step up and quote the late Harry S, Truman and say, "The buck stops here." whilst pointing at Mr. Putin, preferably with indictments from the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
Of course, the USA would likely have to submit to ICC jurisdiction for that to happen. Given the likelihood of the indictment for war crimes of a number of the GOP's stalwarts, the chances of that are probably less than zero. And so we sit in our glass house and lob marshmallows.
6
@E.G.
The US doesn't accept the ICC's jurisdiction, when it comes to judging American war crimes.
You don't see a moral dilemma here?
2
The Russians had absolutely nothing to do with it. Putin himself told that to Trump, and he believes him.
22
Three of Trump and Kushner's best buddies are murderous dictators - Russia's Putin, North Korea's Kim, and Saudi Arabia's MBS. As long as Trump is in office, all three can murder with impunity and access the office of the president with complete privacy and zero oversight. Republicans don't care. What's wrong with this picture?
52
So why is there no movement to boycott, divest and sanction Russia?
13
The Russian government has no morality.
9
@MIKEinNYC Neither does ours these days.
1
@MIKEinNYC Presently neither does ours.
1
It is obvious that a Russian missile launcher would not have crossed into Ukranian territory and fired on a plane without expressed approval by Vladimir Putin. The Russian military officers responsible for firing the missile which destroyed Malaysian Airlines MH17 may have acted unintentionally in killing the passengers on board and may have thought they were targeting a military aircraft. Nevertheless, they and their military superiors, including the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, bear criminal responsibility for this mass murder. Perhaps, Donald Trump, if he isn't too busy Keeping America Great, could call his pal, Vlad, and ask him to send the identified Russian officers for trial in the Hague.
16
Let me see if I get this straight: Trump is threatening to go to war with Iran because some mines have damaged some ships is the Straits of Hormuz. I understand no persons were killed in these incidents. Yet when a jet liner is shot down and 298 innocent civilians are killed, he wants to cooperate with Putin because . . . .” Why?
20
@Ben
Why? Just follow the money...
@Ben
Good question.
Ironically, Reagan’s oft quoted cautionary advice about dealing with the then Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify,” is actually a Russian proverb. No doubt though that he took those words to heart. They should now be applied to the Soviet Union’s predecessor and successor, the one and the same Russia.
With this investigation of the downing of flight MLA17, though, the word order is reversed and the “trust” part made null and void. We have now verification that Russia is culpable in these murders and because of that there is nothing about the Russians that can be trusted, not in this tragedy or much else.
That is how it has always been with them. That’s the record. You can trust that it has been verified. And yes that too is a tragedy.
1
Let's see. "State-sponsored murder." How about facilitating the world's largest humanitarian disaster? (Yemen) How about through engaging in wars of choice, military interventions and drone assasinations that result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands?(Yemen, etc... ad infinitum) How about the sale of weapons and weapons systems whose whole purpose is to kill? (Number one on the charts and still climbing) How about sanctions that target the innocent general population of nations depriving them of medical supplies and related goods resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children. (Cuba, Iraq 1990s Venezuela today))
Good to see we are focusing on the big picture when it comes to human suffering.
40
In an October, 2014 interview with Der Spiegel, Westerbeke advised that at that time "what we do have is insufficient for drawing any conclusions. ...we will need evidence and more than a recorded phone call from the Internet or photos from the crash site." Nothing new since that date has been disclosed. Russia was denied full participation in the investigation and radar tracking data and relevant information regarding the Buk missile were studiously ignored by this Ukraine-led investigation. When it comes to the U.S. preaching the "rule of law", the World in reply has but two words: Abu Ghraib.
9
I have never understood - concerning this tragedy - why oh why the flight was allowed overfly a known conflict zone. Whoever authorized such a flight plan should sure be prosecuted well before any other culprits.
9
@anthony osborne
I ask the same question. Surely Malaysian Airlines are responsible. They flew into an active war zone.
Because the missile is of Russian origin, does not make Russia the aggressor in this incident.
Is Russia to blame when any of its AK-47 rifles are used anywhere in the world?
Is America responsible for every pedestrian death caused by a Ford car anywhere in the world?
Although this editorial makes a good deal of sense, it is not quite fair to refer so unequivocally to "state-sponsored murder."
It is true that but for the Russian intrusion into Ukraine and the introduction of Russian ground to air missiles this couldn't have happened. But I doubt that it was the intention of the Russian regime to shoot down a civilian airliner, any more than it was the intention of the U.S. government to shoot down that Iranian airliner back during the Reagan administration. Accidents do happen, military people do make mistakes, and this one was a whopper.
The Russian regime has intentionally done many atrocious things lately. There is no need to exaggerate its badness as this editorial probably does.
8
@Paul deLespinasse
Russia could make this all go away by simply acknowledging that a mistake was made and offering an apology.
The world might even be willing to forget their other misdeeds: using a chemical weapon to kill an innocent women and severely injuring three others, including a police officer; killing another person by feeding him nuclear material; poisoning a candidate for Ukrainian President; providing cover for a regime that uses barrel bombs and chemical weapons against its own people, just to name a few.
All things considered, the criticism offered in this editorial is quite measured.
4
How about the EU in general and Germany in particular stops buying all Russian petroleum products? The EU has long been an economic elephant tiptoeing around the Russian bee; maybe it's time they started punishing Russian insolence by slicing off 30% of their GDP.
7
I watch a lot of Russian news. Over the past five years the Russian people have been told a very different story regarding the destruction of MH17. Recent polls show that most believe that this investigation is just another attempt to blacken Russia’s image. I suspect that nothing will change until Putin leaves office. Ultimately, he is responsible (and he knows it).
31
@Ray Finch
Don’t be too hard on the average Russian citizen. You will note that we have the equivalent state misinformation “news” channel in this country. Unfortunately, a large portion of our population chooses to believe it, even though they have ready access to the truth, something the Russian people do not.
4
Trump gets away with many things. But that really pales to what Putin gets away with.
11
If you want to punish these sorts of acts, then you have to conquer Russia.
Since nobody wants to spend the money and lives to do this, then nothing will happen. Eventually, Russia will probably collapse, but you might have to wait quite a while for this.
3
Maybe the families of the dead can get a civil settlement from Russia like the civil settlement the US paid after in 1988 a US Navy ship shot down an Iranian civilian jetliner killing all 290 people on board including 66 children. Most Americans have conveniently forgotten this as we beat war drums once again. No one was ever criminally prosecuted for his crime but you can rest assured if the shoe had been on the other foot. . .well, look what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.
20
I credit the Dutch with looking after their fallen citizens, and other fatalities on that aircraft tragedy. Prosecuting the four Russians takes courage and determination, particularly the world we live in today, with hard right Nationalists, Dictators, and Strongmen spread across the globe.
And I am ashamed of our country for not thoroughly investigating the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. He was a legal resident of the United States, and this Administration glossed over the murder to placate the Saudi Government. Such a disgrace to a once great Democracy. And our Congress did nothing, and our Justice Department did nothing. Shameful
127
@cherrylog754 … There's a brazen fascist gangster sitting in the Kremlin, and it's not much better in the White House. The nasty situation we find ourselves in today, with emboldened strongmen and murderous dictators, won't improve until we get rid of trump and his ilk. Only when the U.S. regains its moral compass will there be any chance of reversing this contagion. It's that simple.
6
@cherrylog754
Don't mess with the Dutch. Those people are organized! If they can hold off the Atlantic ocean for hundreds of years they can certainly chase down sleazy Putin puppies.
4
Thank you NYT, for this sadly necessary piece. Accountability is not going away. Let's wish Putin's world and companions the audacity, bravery, and perspective to envision itself becoming a positive and productive force in this world. History books of the future will sorrily shake their heads over Russia's pitiful pitbull performance in this era so replete of reason and solutions.
5
'An open trial is how just societies..." I would posit that the same can be said of Congressional oversight. It has to be open and public. What is the republican administration of this country doing about the corrupt practices of its members?
You guessed it. Refusing subpoenas, making up total presidential privilege, obstructing justice. Do we live in a just society.
No.
Can we change this? Vote Democrat in 2020.
15