I really hate to say this, but Hong Kong is doomed to suffer under Communist Chinese rule. Remember how quiet Beijing was after Tiananmen Square. Then the Army came, killing at will, arresting protesters and supporters, then incarcerating them. The same will happen in Hong Kong, but on even larger scale. The West will do nothing, especially under Trump. Hong Kong is about to become collateral damage.
In my view the whole thing about a horrendous crime is getting a complete political oriented turn when legislation is obviously needed to properly regulate crime and judgement inside the intricate relationships between Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Clearly neither Hong Kong nor Taiwan are independent entities particularly after the Imperial British rule has been brought to an end and Taiwan being subjected to the One China Policy. Extradition could be a legitimate proposal in this circumstances not a bewildered imposition.
3
This is clearly the plot of an office clerk attemptting to get brownie points from her masters, unintentionally exposing CCPs as Oz behind the curtain, who obviously can't send in the tanks just like they did 30 years ago. Never underestimate the heart of an office clerk. She's a liabilities CCP now and soon will be removed.
3
Whatever the outcome may be, it could becomes a beacon to many countries controlled and threatened by autocratic leaderships, that such massive demonstration, as seen in HK may ,in fact, become a challenge to those who conspire to impose their will against its people by denying justice and freedom of choice to prevail.
12
@nf. History attests that one cannot stifle people's liberties forever, logical or not. It is bound to expire one day. The will of people will eventually
prevail.
7
Ah, the Jasmine Spring begins, from your lips to God’s ears.
4
Before many of you were alive, we took to the streets, campuses and airways, protesting our killing of peasants in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Those were bad, evil, violent times. Many people lost and sacrificed much to force President Lyndon Johnson to end the war. I hated that period in my life. But when evil is thrust upon us, we must fight it. Many did. The courageous people of Hong Kong (and Taiwan) are fighting their good fight now (against communist China). Your turn is coming. Taiwan will be voting in 2020 to elect its national president to protect its democracy against communist China’s preferred candidates and China’s plans to subvert Taiwan, and if that fails, to invade it by force.
You must soon vote too. Do it. The people of Hong Kong have no real vote. But we do. Do it.
We need large protests like this here to get rid of Trump before he is reelected and destroys even more of our constitutional rights, human service agencies. environment regulations, and endless wars to fill the pockets of the military arms manufacturers.
6
@judith randall We need to subvert democracy to stop the subversion of democracy?
1
Paranoia can be destructive and brutally affect the masses’s psyqui. Foreign interest must be spending billions in Hong Kong, fomenting “grass-roots” movements against Mainland China.
2
@RBR. Dear RBR: Mao-Zhou initiated their adventure with Soviet money. A large part of Dr. Sun Yat-Sun's financial resources came from overseas Chinese who were legally 'foreigners.' Dr. Sun Yat-Sun himself had American citizenship. These are well-recognized historical facts (recognized by the PRC and the ROC). In contrast, there is no proof that 'Foreign interest must be spending billions in Hong Kong', unless you are talking about the money spent by PRC's communist officials buying properties and jewelry for their concubines in Hong Kong and gambling in Macao. What makes you think that Hong Kongers are so dumb that they need foreign money to motivate them for fight for freedom and basic decency that they will lose under CCP rule?
3
== ATTENTION ==
There is misunderstanding from the international world that the Extradition Law is withdrawn.
The reason is that Carrie Lam’s English version is “suspend indefinitely”. The top definition in urban dictionary (how people commonly understand the word at this age) is “without ending, forever, endless period of time, infinite.” In Chinese, “暫緩” means “slow it down temporarily”.
Carrie Lam is playing the translation trick so that the international world will not make so much noise and that the investors won’t go away. More importantly she does this to save face for Xi Jinping.
Please spread this to people outside of Hong Kong so that they are aware of this trick.
Kindly pass this on, thanks.
8
Thank you Paul. Best wishes. We stand with you. All of us.
5
This case lit a fuse
The people refuse
To alter their views
Even after abuse
So leaders choose
To alter THEIR views
This is good news
Let’s drink some booze!
We’ve got nothing to lose
1
Charles Mok, Dennis Kwok and Chan were in Washington at the invitation of the Trump administration
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3002953/hong-kong-lawmakers-and-former-no-2-hit-us-capital-report
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1449248-20190323.htm
Looks like the protest organizers needed to get permission from their American handlers before going forward. I'm amazed that Hong Kong will tolerate their own government members spilling national secrets to foreign powers in plain sight.
If Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and Jim Jordan went to Russia to "brief" Putin's security committee about the "situation" in the US, the American people would lynch them as traitors. (or at least ought to, anyway; not sure these days).
It's a good thing to see that Hong Kong's leaders still have enough perspective to recognize collusion with hostile foreign powers when they see it.
1
Charles Mok, Dennis Kwok and Chan were in Washington at the invitation of the Trump administration
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3002953/hong-kong-lawmakers-and-former-no-2-hit-us-capital-report
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1449248-20190323.htm
Looks like the protest organizers needed to get permission from their American handlers before going forward. I'm amazed that Hong Kong will tolerate their own government members spilling national secrets to foreign powers in plain sight.
If Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and Jim Jordan went to Russia to "brief" Putin's security committee about the "situation" in the US, the American people would lynch them as traitors. (or at least ought to, anyway; not sure these days).
It's a good thing to see that Hong Kong's leaders still have enough perspective to recognize collusion with hostile foreign powers when they see it.
@Mary.
Hong Kong's 'leaders' (actually 'puppets') may claim that they see the U.S. and U.K. as 'hostile foreign powers,' but their actual behavior proves otherwise. As a typical example, Regina Ip parked her parents and daughter in the U.S. while lecturing the Hong Kongers about how the Americans discriminate against the Chinese. The Tung Jian-Hua family has lots of relatives living in the U.S. too. In contrast, none of them send their children to their beloved motherland (i.e., mainland China) for patriotic education. Moreover, we all know how the PRC's leaders get the financial resources to send their kids to get their 'hostile' and 'decadent' education in expensive American universities.
Hong Kongers know first hand that British oppressors treat their colonial subjects much better than how the CCP treat their own 'compatriots' (同胞）.
3
The people power which caused Ms. Lam’s (i.e. China) climb-down on the extradition matter, and the people/journalistic power which led to the release of investigative journalist Ivan Golunov were the best “good news stories” this week.
2
Go Hong Kong! Remember the Tank Man!
3
Communist regime of Peking has already manned the government of Hong Kong with "loyal" personnel. Haven't we known this for a good while.
3
This article is extremely important to the understanding of the mass protests in Hong Kong today. Yet, it is most likely that fewer than 10% of those who are aware of the Hong Kong protests about "extradition" are aware of the background case which was used to introduce the "extradition" law. This is a most important part of the whole picture which should have been published when the Hong Kong Kong protests began.
And, yes, it does appear, rightly or not, that the "extradition" law was introduced at the direction of the CCP with the ultimate goal of extraditing to "Mainland China" those residents of Hong Kong that the CCP might want to silence. Big misstep on the part of President Xi.
4
I heard that the conviction rate on mainland China is 99%. So it's a rubber stamp. China is known to falsely accuse people similar to Iran. They will give you a trial but it's a kangaroo court. Not that long ago two men who run a bookstore that carried books about President Xi and other high ranking CP officials had suddenly disappeared. They were kidnapped and taken to mainland China. The mistake the British made was not to set up a system where Hong Kong could operate as a democracy within a confederation or a commonwealth as the British have with its former colonies. Mainland China believes that fifty years is too long to wait to exert total totalitarian control over Hong Kong basically doing away with civil rights and habeas corpus.
3
Not two men abducted, five were abducted.
@Wayne the conviction rate in Japan is similarly high at 99%. it's a different justice system. it just means that all the work is done beforehand and the court is just a formality. your lack of understanding of their justice system does not make you right.
2
Will Hong Kong be a freer place to live if people can murder others in mainland China and in Taiwan and take permanent refuge there? I think this is a dubious and dangerous conflation of liberty with lawlessness. Unless you want to claim that the guy that murdered his fiance was making a political statement that deserves to be endorsed?
1
@Molly ONeal That's a completely confused understanding of what is going on here. I don't think anyone has sympathy for this fellow, but they do not want to make the law so other people in Hong Kong can be extradited to mainland China. The law was written at the time of an outrageous crime, but it appears there were ulterior motives behind it. Enemies of civil liberties often take advantage of when passions are boiling to get their agenda across. I hope this guy comes to justice, but in a way that does not compromise the rights of the people of Hong Kong.
2
The headline appears in the Times
‘The Murder Case That Lit the Fuse in Hong Kong’
What happened?
Poon Hiu-wing and her beau, Chan Tong-kai
Took a trip to Taiwan. A trip Miss Poon
Should never have gone on. Mr Chan,
A crazy man, strangled her and made her die
A terrible crime. But in Hong Kong, a very
Big place, it probably happens all the time
Hong Kong wanted to send Mr Chan and
Other suspects to Taiwan and other places
Where they don’t have an extradition treaty
Including mainland China. What could be finer?
Chief exec, Carrie Lam, thought they had
An easy win. But they thought wrong
They underestimated public fear and suspicion
Among the Hong Kong population
They protested en masse
They were tear-gassed
In numerous demonstrations
As a result, Mrs Lam, in a rare retreat
Yielded to pressure, suspending her push
For legislation while resisting calls to
Withdraw it completely and resign
What conclusions can we draw from this tale?
If the government tries to be hard-line
And act against the people’s will
They will protest. And have their say
May get their way. A perfect test for
A land that seeks democracy
What do I say? I’d hope and pray
We’d act the same in the USA
I’m thinking of a certain case
A certain man, um, what’s his face?
I cannot place. I think he’s a DC resident
Perhaps he is the President?
Him we may want to dump
If that day finally comes
Bang the drums!
Are you listening, Mr Trump?
2
The Chinese Central Committee is implacable in its drive to exert control over Hong Kong and thus far it has been remarkably successful but here we see a rare example of overreach.
The problem is that they could kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Hong Kong is the capitalist jewel in China's crown and keeping it that way while also keeping it under control requires a delicate and difficult balancing act.
Here we see an example of of Xi Jinping iron fist authoritarianism thwarted but not for long and Hong Kong's residents know it.
6
Hong Kong apparently wants to correct a loophole that prevent getting through with crime processes lacking extradition legislation. This puts Hong Kongnians 'rebels' in a very uncomfortable position ultimately defending that Hong Kong citizen that murdered a Taiwanese girl. Apparently for the western media it's more important the mobilization of people against the government in Hong Kong for any reason or any 'cause', or China for that matter, than anything else. The crime was horrendous, is there eventually any significant difference as to how to deal in Justice with the criminal in this case, between Hong Kong and Taiwan?
2
@José Ramón Herrera
As the article made abundantly clear the proposed legislation could have allowed just this one case of extradition. Instead the mainland decided they could use this horrible to case to rob Hong Kong of an essential freedom. Luckily the people were watching.
Like you, China wants to pretend outside forces are involved but this comes from the people in Hong Kong themselves.
2
@José Ramón Herrera if you really read the article instead of browsing through it you would have seen this: "China and Taiwan have for years sent criminal suspects to each other, for example, even though they do not formally recognize each other, and some lawmakers believe Hong Kong should establish a similar arrangement with Taiwan."
As for crime being horrendous how is strangling someone come across as horrendous compared to say stabbing someone 100 times? I'm not trying to minimize the crime but it's a crime of passion. Imagine being with the love of your life on Valentine'd Day then she takes that moment to tell you that the baby she is carrying is not yours, but that of another man? Then to add salt to a wound she shows you a video of her having sex with another man. Most men would have lost their composure. That's why it's a crime of passion which is different from your run of the mill everyday violent crimes. That's no reason to upend the entire legal system to start extraditing people to mainland China where the courts are controlled by the Communist party and guilty or not guilty you don't stand a chance for real justice!
1
@Wayne
The story about a video is just that -- a story, one he likely made up to make the killing appear justified. Perhaps it was just her pregnancy, to which he contributed, that put him in an unjustifiable rage.
Mr. Chan of course needs to face justice—
But Ms. Lam's sleight of hand was seen through immediately.
What is MOST IMPORTANT for Hong Kong is that the demonstrators not let up, and I don't think they will.
No Tiananmen Square in Hong Kong. They'll see this through. This is no "Arab Spring" uprising; this is a highly educated democratic force.
In fact Hong Kong, almost a country in and of itself, may want its independence. [And a blood-free revolution would be a wondrous thing.]
5
@srwdm If Hong Kong were independent, I hope it would adopt laws that would allow murderers to face justice in the jurisdiction where their crime was committed.
1
I think I saw a political ad flashing its distraction, something about blue skies in NYC. Obtuse irony at best as cheap labor was not the only incentive for disinvestment in the American heartland. So the old gray lady willfully distracts its readers with brightly enhanced color ads imitating public service announcements while degrading the content of the supposedly news worthy video that follows about a nation who has greatly enjoyed an expansion of their middle class and suffered greatly from unregulated dispersal of externalized costs due to our obsession with cleanliness being an ecological godliness. If your freedom of expression and assembly are won in America's externalized means of production may you maintain a more modest medium.
Taiwan is against the law as it would allow HK to extradite Taiwan citizens into Mainland China. Hence the reason they won't take this murder back as they feel by using this law, they would put their own citizens at risk.
Btw, the US doesn't have a treaty with Taiwan either.
2
@John at home
Acutally there's more to it,
The proposed amendment stipulats that "extradition requests must come from central authorities in a jurisdiction."
So the question is: which central authority would represent Taiwan, a country that China has long claimed sovereignty over?
I'm sure HK and China will insist all requests from Taiwan go through China, that's a no-no for Taiwan, hence the rejection.
Just when it was looking like ordinary people had given up on democracy, one million people, one-seventh of the country's population, take to the streets to defend it.
Sometimes, inspiration comes from strange far off places.
8
The case lit a fuse
The story makes news
The people refuse
To take more abuse
Will the govt choose
To change their views?
Who will win, who will lose?
Don’t be confused
Keep up with the news
Got nothing to lose
the politicization of this case is disgusting. please just send him home to face the consequences of his actions. he is a murderer, seemingly without any remorse. and due to hongkong's laws, he could be released in a couple of months into the general public. he is a dangerous person to society and he should be jailed for the rest of his life. if the hong kong and taiwanese government can't agree on a course of action that would allow his incarceration, those governments have indeed failed to protect their own people.
4
Finally the necessary background story was disclosed, but it was too late for people to revert to objective mind. The victim, a young girl, rights have been trashed in the name of a political debate. The alleged killer will walk, and perhaps, he would go to US or disappear. After 1997, none of the appointed executives of HKSAR could or can do anything, because there has always been a group of Don Quixote who thinks they speak for everyone in HK, and fight the big windmill - China. Constantly they created chaos in HK legislatures and HK people’s life. Let me ask a question, Aren’t HK elected members made and amended HK’s laws, and how is that not democratic enough? For this group, of course not, cause the executive of HK SAR is China, they trust none of them. But the fact is Carrie Lam has worked for HK administration under the British and now representing China for over 40 years, she is certainly competent, so why is she constantly being bashed? Besides, China let a woman govern one of its regions, a woman, under the communist regime, and the first, isn’t that an evolution? The world is pointing finger and asking for her resignation, when she is just doing her job! Where is Justice? I am angry and sad to see HK in a process of devolution.
1
What`s puzzling me is why the excuse of that poor girls murder was ever used to justify the legislation...
The only reason i can think of is the fears of the people of Hong Kong were sadly very true,its a well established part of international law(especially where the victim is of the same nationality) that those who commit crimes abroad can be charged for them back home so there was never any reason he couldn't have been charged for her murder in Hong Kong,all that would be needed is for the police in both Countries to agree to it....
This is from
Jurisdiction General Principles
"Active personality (i.e. the accused will be prosecuted in the country of the nationality of the offender);
Passive personality (i.e. the accused will be prosecuted in the country of the nationality of the victim);
Universal jurisdiction (i.e. the state will be able to prosecute regardless of the nationality of the offender, the victim, and where the offence was committed"
1
What government would unilaterally pass a law to extradite their own citizens to another country? Only a corrupt one.
3
The murderer will go free in HK, like it or not. I don't care about what system they have in HK, but it is a broken system.
Broken by Beijing, to be precise.
The Communist Party has chosen not to have a direct extradition treaty with Taiwan, for political reasons. The only alternative would be for Hong Kong to try one of its citizens for a murder in another country, which is outrageous.
2
Beijing is concerned with demonstrations and movements, not laws. Extradition is merely a useful tool for prevention of exactly that behavior. Hong Kong can look forward now to painful economic punishments targeting their financial/industrial plutocrats. In the interim 'extradition' will occur the old fashioned way: bookstore owner style. The organizing core of demonstrators are HK's college students who, lacking both English and Mandarin ability, have diminished career options in one of the world's most expensive cities. The solution is further integration with the world's largest economy, not isolation.
8
@john non sequitur
I'm not sure how you're relating your second issue to make any point. HK's college students know both Engligh and Mandarin, in addition to their native Cantonese. HK is already a global city, so you're going to have to elaborate how any further global economic integration is a solution to... whatever your point is supposed to be.
13
@DY
I cannot elaborate on a point I didn't make. My final sentence was not complex; perhaps you might read it again. As to the English capability of HK graduates...
@john What total rubbish. Have you ever been to HK? Unlike Singapore English signage isn't everywhere in stores and restaurants but if you stop and speak to the locals their English is just fine.
Everyone needs to put HK on their bucket lists, one of my favorite cities.
1
One million people walking in the streets, as a protest, in a land of 6 or 7 million people, is impressive, wonderful, and exciting.
Those people are reading, learning, thinking, and willing to make some noise to preserve their rights.
I think we Americans could use a big dose of this group behavior.
Imagine if 15% of our population, in every city, in every town, walked in a march to protest Citizens United. Even if you think Citizens United is "correct," "right," "fair," or whatever, the fact is, It Is Not Useful for the majority of our population. It doesn't matter if something is true, or "correct;"
What matters is, "Is this thing Useful to help us take care of ourselves?", whether it is a law, a rule, a ruling, a behavior, a thought, etc.
Maybe our well-paid legislators in Washington, DC would listen if 50 Million of us Americans (about 15% of us) marched one day, and were willing to keep marching, until our well-paid politicians provided something useful for our lives.
Sounds like we need to take some lessons from the folks in Hong Kong.
57
@Richard
Very good point which is, in a nutshell, the solution to the many problems facing the people who are, as you you point out, absolutely the most important factor in the equation.
If 50 million people took to the streets the self-satisfied and bloated legislature in Washington (of both parties) would have no choice but to mend their ways. I dream of the day this will happen. But it will take a crisis of monumental proportions.
8
@Richard
One thing is that the HK people were protesting a very specific piece of legislation. The reason "occupy wall street" and other sorts of movements fail is because, whereas we all understand the general malaise of lack of job security and an uncertain future for many young people and people in their 50s who were unluckily laid off, there is no specific target that they pound the drum on. It would have to hammer down to a very specific abuse of the system, not broad swaths like unrestrained and uncritical "globalization", "corporate greed", and issues like health care, environment, etc. It seems that it has to come down to a very specific piece of legislation or basically politicians can wait it out until it fizzles or there is an excuse for the police to break it up.
3
well said - I wish I could recommend multiple times
2
You do not need a treaty to extradite someone. The burden of proof to extradite becomes very high (as it should be) when there is no treaty.
13
Indeed, @sk, you actually DO need a legal agreement, be it a treaty, a compact or whatever it may be termed, to compel extradition proceedings. The distinction need be made between “proceedings “ - fact-finding - and actual “extradition “, which can only happen if the subject (of an arrest warrant) voluntarily waives fact-finding or the fact-finding justifies a judicial order of extradition.
Leaving aside the burden of proof you mention, such agreements exist between individual states here in the U.S. to ensure that people are not just “renditioned” without due process. The only exceptions are for bounty hunters with a valid arrest warrant for a bail jumper.
Extradition treaties/compacts between countries are often much more complicated and fraught with political implications, as is the case in point.
3
Next time China demands we extradite an expat or visitor back to China from the U.S., we just say no, loudly and collectively.
1
Life is an adventure. It has no guarantee on anything. I will not use "freedom" or "safety" to deny any meaningful, useful, reasonable and reciprocal laws between countries and regions. It is a shame to let criminals get away with murder due to small technicality. But reality stinks. Next time when their friends and family members had problems in other countries, don't criticize the government didn't do anything to help you.
5
@Usok
Hong Kong people lives under constant threat of losing their freedom. Their constant fear of Communist Chinese government's intervention in Hong Kong's self rule is deep. China had kidnapped a number of Hong Kongers who had spoken publicly against the Chinese government. They were never heard of again. Your declaration that "Life is an adventure", could not be futher than the truth. It is easy for some one to make this declaration when one lives in a democracy as in America with a honest, open government and justice system. Whereas, China has a closed government and a corrupt justice system. I have empathy for the parents of the victim Ms Poon. I hope Hong Kong government somehow finds a way to render justice for the agrieved family and the victim of this murder..
It is nearly impossible for an autocratic government to learn the power of people. HK Causeway Bay Bookstore case was a clear indication that China is far away from the rule of law. All statutes in China start with the supremacy of the Communist Party, which is like Kafka's castle. Everybody knows it is almighty. However, nobody knows what it is. Every scholar has failed to predict the appearance of civil society in China. It is true China has been ruled by Kings and Queens for the past several thousand years. Communist Party has been amorphous Absolute. HK might become a beginning place of the counter-current. 10 years after Tennanmoon Square demonstration, this might be the starting point to the more transparent society in China.
16
@Young-Cheol Jeong
Surely you mean thirty years and I hope you are right.
There are many countries that commit crimes against humanity and China's treatment of Tibetans and Uighurs makes it among the worst.
30
Readers, stop the judgement. Not a single totalitarian government has survived regardless how well disguised. The US has tried to bring China, its leaders and people into the world economy. Sometimes it works, Germany, Japan, South Korea, sometimes it doesn’t. China has a choice. China knows it has a choice. The World is watching.
11
HK will be the beacon of hope or Achilles heel to China and it will be interesting to see how the Chinese leadership play their cards in future.
7
Even a cursory review of the attitudes and actions of the Beijing government toward those they regard as potential dissidents shows how right the people of Hong Kong are to distrust them. Its a slam/dunk decision for them.
19
China bad player English should not give control of Hong Kong to China before long hear thousand Deaths in Hong Kong , because Beijing think wright .People Hong Kong fight to death because China Communist party impotent to own peoples.
4
@Rick Johnson
Hong Kong society's death grip on Cantonese results in an academic system where university graduates have Google translate English (see above) and equally horrid Mandarin. As a result, HK youth are unemployable but the provide wonderful fodder for demonstrations.
In the US, murder of a US citizen by another US citizen while outside the country is a crime in the US. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1119#
18
Prosecution is difficult because getting witnesses back to the U.S. is inconvenient and expensive. Not impossible, just difficult. Beware of expats when traveling abroad.
5
@Terry G
Good point
Finally an article that explains the situation.
64
@Imagine Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Kudos to the Grey Lady.
1
Honk Kong could have done what USA did years ago : make the murder of one US citizen by another US citizen abroad a US crime so USA has jurisdiction if the local authorities do not (or cannot) prosecute the crime.
61
@Thomas Anantharaman
Easier said than done, Hong Kong's government is run by China's surrogates. Hong Kong's top officials are all picked by Chinese government.
2
Donald Trump equivocated on this issue. Apparently Xi wasn't taking his tweets.
8
The "high degree of autonomy" agreed between China and Britain is carefully defined in Hong Kong's Basic Law. In the proposed legislation for extradition, the rights of the suspects are protected. An extradition can occur only when both the court and the chief executive authorize it. This is hardly taking away the "freedom" of the Hong Kong people as the opposition has claimed. The news report has detailed information plus the reporter's opinion. It would have been more timely if it was published a few days earlier.
11
@Paul
I am a Hong Konger. The bill is highly dangerous as you do not know how things work between HK and China. Since the Chief Executive of HK is appointed by the Communist Chinese government, he or she can simply NOT refuse the extradiction order from Beijing. The next leader of HK may be a sadist for all we know since we do not have voting rights to choose our leaders. HK judges have great concerns as they are only allowed a superficial review of the evidence and cannot conduct a judicial investigation of the case. CCP is notorious in making up false evidence and charges against their dissidents. For example, they use tax evasion to arrest the Chinese artist Ai Weiwei. The communists cannot be trusted.
145
So... trust all dictatorial regimes? Because they always keep their promises?
17
@Chan.
The chief executive is actually elected by an electoral college of 1200 members who are directly elected by the people. The gpvernmemt in Being then formally appoints him or her.
Although the judges don't do investigation, if they are not satisfied with the evidence presented by the prosecutor. they can always turn down the extradition request.
5
The people are never wrong.
They smelled a rat, and that rat stunk to high heaven.
43
The people are never wrong? I’d say that, generally speaking, the opposite is true. Just study history, recent and ancient.
17
@Full Name (required)
"The people are never wrong."
Let's not go overboard here. In THIS case the people were not wrong.
For proof that "the people" can easily be wrong, I refer you to the election of the criminal currently inhabiting the White House.
30
@Full Name (required) the people are most often wrong. This just so happens to be a case where the people got it right.
1
Clearly what is needed is not legislation allowing people to be extradited to China, it is the recognition of Taiwan as an independent nation.
67
That will happen right after California gains independence.
9
"From the start, critics labeled the extradition plan a “Trojan horse” that would allow Beijing to target political dissidents and others in Hong Kong who ran afoul of party officials."
How could Mrs. Lam think otherwise? Or is it simply that she knows that complete domination by the PRC is inevitable, and that she wishes to be in the good graces of China's leaders?
23
@Middleman MD
Ms Lam was and still is a puppet of Beijing.
2
If I were Mrs. Lam, I would never allow, let alone push for such an extradition agreement with China, for the simple reason that, one day when she falls out of favor with Beijing for whatever reason, Beijing would not be able to use a trumped-up criminal charge to put her in a Mainland prison. It is that simple. Most people who have lived under a democratic system, including the people of Hong Kong, don't know or understand how BRUTAL and UNCIVILIZED politics can be in an autocratic and dictatorial system like China's. It is literally CUTTHROAT. I am sure she would say it would be impossible for her to fall out of Beijing's favor, and it would be even more impossible for her to be imprisoned. But I would say to her: Don't be so sure. Go and ask Bo Xi Lai how he ended up in prison.
76
Ms. Lam's husband and son live in England, and she has stated that she will be retiring there after stepping down. She won't be around to witness the aftermath of her betrayal of Hong Kong citizens.
72
@William W.
Please do not underestimate the knowledge and understanding of dictatorship by the people of Hong Kong. The idea that Carrie Lam would underestimate the brutality of Xi Jinping is laughable.
@William W.
Please do not underestimate the degree to which the people of Hong Kong, living side by side with the CPR are acutely aware of the ruthless brutality of the Chinese Communist Party. Carrie Lam is an intelligent well educated career politician with much experience of dealing with the authoritarian regime sixteen miles away. As such she is unlikely to unaware of the danger she faces
1
I read that the Taiwanese authorities tried for many months to reach a quiet agreement with Hong Kong but were ignored. Why would the HK authorities ignore Taiwan's proposals?
Did Beijing and its liaison office in Hong Kong try to leverage this criminal case to gain the wider extradition law it wanted?
40
“In December, prosecutors in Taiwan obtained an arrest warrant for Mr. Chan.”
“The (Taiwanese) government said it had reached out three times to the authorities in Hong Kong to discuss how he might be extradited. All three requests went unanswered, according to Chiu Chui-cheng, a deputy minister of Taiwan’s Mainland Affairs Council, the agency responsible for policy toward China.”
The injustice is that the current Chinese dictatorship refuses to recognize Taiwan.
If China wanted justice, it would hand over the suspect who was videotaped hauling the murder victim around Taiwan in a suitcase.
Shame on the Chinese dictatorship.
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Unless I misunderstood the alleged murderer is presently in HK and the issue is wether he should be extradited to mainland China. That is what the people of HK object to...
2
What kind of monster kills a beautiful young woman and stuffs her in suitcase to rot？。I do not care about diplomatic issues. Authorities should seek justice for the victim, her grieving family and society writ large. There’s enough evidence. Get it done.
9
You miss understand the issue, Engelina.
The murder was committed in Taiwan.
Taiwan asked Hong Kong to be extradited to Taiwan.
Hong Kong (under mainland control) refused to extradite the murderer to Taiwan.
There's no reason for the murderer to be extradited to mainland China.
2
Taiwan naturally sees HK as a kind of last barrier against the PRC.
When HK is finally subsumed completely from the current state of suzerainty, Taiwan, ostracized by all other major powers, will be on its own.
The solution, as Israel and North Korea demonstrate, seems to be nuclear.
18
Taiwan’s outside-the-box deterrent might be to invite a lot more foreigners to visit and stay longer in the country. Make it easier to get an extended visa. Already Taiwan hosts many people from Japan, S. Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, America and Indonesia. Collateral multi-national casualties from an invasion would bring a coalition of hellfire on Beijing. At any time there are tens of thousands of foreign visitors in Taiwan. Doubling that would boost its economy and security.
10
Protesters didn’t buy it, and they shouldn’t buy it.
It’s a deceitful ruse.
The truth is that China is just determined to impose the mainland ways on Hong Kong.
And it will probably use the Tiananmen Square method at some point.
They aren’t fooling anyone.
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