“cultural appropriation,” and “safety” warnings about words and literature used in college classrooms and a few other terms need to be called out for what they are: censorship.
We’d all be back in the dark ages if we didn't borrow and alter the work of other humans...
Unless you want to move back into caves (oops, can’t already taken by Andalusians) and forgo medicine (too late, Anti-Vaxers - Christian Scientists got the jump) and just wear tunics (oops! Egyptians!) the protesters need to get a grip. Or else walk around wearing Blinders and a cane so they don't see anything offensive- but of course not without permission from the Three Blind Mice first.
47
This situation re: appropriation and accusation of THEFT can have no good end for culture in the 21st century. It will literally tie the hands of creators. Picasso was an appropriator of the highest order and was appreciated for doing just that ... even by the artists from whom he “stole” images, including his friend, Matisse.
We have had, only weeks ago, another high-priced example of appropriation with the sale of Jeff’s Koon’s “Rabbit” for $91 million. His inspiration was from a Mylar balloon. Andy Warhol used silver Mylar balloons in an installation / exhibition during the early days of Pop Art ... another appropriation ... and the Campbell’s Soup Cans, Brillo Boxes, etc. Where will this stop? Let’s just say we’ve just been taken down a rabbit hole by Mexico ‘s “speaking out” for their artisans, who would never see a peso of a “tax” on inspiration. Let’s just say we are living in a era of GREED.
11
The usual points of view have surfaced. The marginalized 'original' owners of the design have had their works stolen by some incredibly successful group/person and no hint at any thought of sharing of the obscene profits being made off stealing those traditional or cultural designs/food/song, you name it.
I doubt that any of this would change even if the haute house could somehow share their profit. Does anyone think for a moment that if she sent a check of 10% of her profits that the Mexican government would track down every one that deserves, but who knows what criteria, a cut of the action. Or does the Minister of Culture just give it to Mexico's general fund since the amount divided would be small overall?
One only needs to look at the debates and for definition of who is a Native American and how much genetic material one must carry to be eligible for a cut of the casino profits each year, something hotly debated here in Minnesota area.
One might argue that none of those who are used as examples of victims of theft are not able to claim originality, other than through their own duplication of those designs.
In any event, none, absolutely no one who is buying H & M are going to leave NYC, fly on their Gulfstream to Mexico, and shop the streets and squares to get an original from there. That you can be sure of.
8
Oh no, does this mean no more taco night?? There is no such thing as a 'pure' culture. We are all an amalgam of our influences, and we are richer for it. Example: Old Town Road.
12
This is ridiculous. These creations are not at all identical to the originals, they just borrow some elements from the originals.
The shape of these dresses are very different from the shape of the original peasant garments they borrow colorful designs from, the woman who would wear these lovely form-fitting items in rich fabrics would not wear a baggy cotton peasant blouse or dress, for example.
Cultural borrowing has been going on for ever, that is how cultures evolve rather than remain stagnant.
It should be celebrated and seen as the homage it is.
What IS stealing is taking the term "plagiarism" that originated in the very specific context of academia, and is actually a very "western" concept based on the idea of personal property, personal ownership of ideas and their expression, and applying it outside that context, to ownership of popular culture.
No one "owns" popular culture, that is what makes it popular culture, it belongs to everybody and anybody who can and wants to appreciate it.
29
Just this morning, I was looking at an online catalogue that offered exquisite jewelry made by an artist who uses Etruscan and ancient Roman designs. She is not Roman or Etruscan, as far as I know. Should she be be looking for her cease and desist letter from the Italian government? This controversy is ridiculous. As a frequent traveler to Mexico, I ask its government what it is doing to preserve and support indigenous culture other than provoking needless controversy. Is it funding activities to help these artisans feed their families? Is it including art education in schools attended by indigenous children? Is it investing in marketing these indigenous goods?
25
Gimme a break! Artists have been inspired by, and have borrowed from, other cultures since the Big Bang. If art depended solely on out of the blue flashes of originality, there would hardly be any culture to borrow from.
14
I suppose I should be deeply offended when I see pillow covers made out of silk sarees...and "chai latte" on the menu...and hot yoga classes...but I am not. I am mostly amused and happy that my culture is being enjoyed albeit in it's diluted form.
13
Cultural diffusion is natural and acceptable, but cultural piracy is not. This practice is not confined to fashion and to developed economies, however. Even some developing countries, like Thailand, have been brazenly selling and exporting copycats and fake goods under other countries's brand names. It would help consumers for the NYT to investigate this phenomenon and its impact on the global economy.
2
There has never been a document of culture, which is not simultaneously one of barbarism. --Walter Benjamin
If "cultural appropriation" were to end, there would be nothing we could call culture.--Me
8
I agree with all the commenters saying this is taking PC-ness waaay too far...Hungarian folk motives are very similar to these Mexican ones as are many other Eastern-European ones. What the Mexican government and Ms. Friedman did by creating and writing about this *controversy* is to advertise the Herrera's products....
10
How did I know that the most "liked" comments would be those that dismissed the protestations from the infringed upon communities. I guess the readers here just skipped over the unfortunate phrase, "though in its blithe usage it is clearly a hangover of an old colonial mentality. " Because to all the clueless people commenting here, that's the point. People who have been colonized, brutalized and commoditized for centuries dare to complain. If fashion designers want to look for inspiration where it won't offend anyone why not look at their own history?
9
These are beautiful clothes from a major fashion artist. Folk are or outsider art, however named, has been used in fashion since the 1920s—long may it live. Design and color are fluid and global—how shocking to see this cynicism and obsession with ownership coming from the new generation
14
I think this dress is gorgeous and the Mexican government owes Herrera debt of gratitude. If they had any creativity themselves they could use this entire idea as a kick off for a campaign advertising Mexico as a place of flowers and great vacations. If you think the world gave you lemons, make some lemonade and some money off it!
17
PC gone wacky. Because a beautiful design was developed in another culture it is "appropriation" to copy it? Our country is the 'melting pot' of the world, are we only supposed to blend the ugly? Come on people, don't give in to this pseudo-sociology.
11
the world has gone mad. appreciation for another culture’s art and paying homage to it should be values, not denigrated.
14
"Cultural appropriation" appears to be instinctive in humans. It goes on constantly. How many of the people complaining about the "appropriation" of their cultures have at least one pair of blue jeans in their closet? Are they direct descendants of California gold rush participants? I'm guessing not.
"Cultural appropriation"-- learning and borrowing from other people-- seems to be hardwired into human DNA. In fact, if humans didn't "culturally appropriate" we'd probably still be living in caves.
There's an excellent argument against mean-spirited racial stereotypes. But finding beauty in another culture's art and technology is really some of the best of what makes us human.
12
Which culture owns the stripe? Or plaid? Do floral prints need to be made of flowers that are native to the country of origins. America is a country of immigrants, except for the first nations part of our population. Almost every country of the world has residents living here. How many generations does it take before they lose the right to borrow from their country of origin? And since we intermarry is there a percentage of their blood that should be considered to decide if they have moral access to their non american heritage? Just a thought.
14
Everything in one way shape or form is appropriation. It is a form of incremental progress.
7
Fashion is an industry that includes some artistic flourishes. Every year is a new season that must be different from the last so people will purchase more items in the artificial desire to be current Hems up, hems down, tight fitting loose, dark colors, sunny colors, there are a limited number of options so of course designers struggle because there only so many patterns to create, there is really nothing new under the sun so they steal ideas from everyone and everywhere. The very idea of "fashion" is a first world issue and if the entire idea of fashion went away nothing would be truly missed.
1
In one paragraph, the writer does a good job of encapsulating this whole issue:
"The natural end result of this particular trend, after all, is that designers and the brands they work for become so worried about offending that they cease to look at the world outside, defining their aesthetic ever more narrowly. Their own experience becomes their sole creative fodder. And that serves neither them nor us."
But it is unfortunate that she does not have even a suggestion about how designers should address the concerns of those accusing them of "cultural appropriation". And, btw, I have yet to see a coherent, clear definition of that term. If no one can agree on what it is, how can designers avoid it?
Also, the author seems to have a very truncated view of fashion history. She dates the practice of incorporating designs of other cultures to 1976! I recall the craze for Nehru jackets in the 1960's, as well as what were called "peasant blouses" with embroidery similar to the Herrera collection. Indian style tunics were (and are again) all the rage, clogs, originally worn by the Dutch, also came into vogue in the 1960's. Sandals, now ubiquitous, are believed to have originated with the ancient Egyptians. Cultural appropriation?
10
I support freedom of the imagination and am saddened that we have come to this place. I end up being confused. On a recent stay in Mexico I bought a shawl designed and made by a Mexican designer in Mexico. The pattern was based on traditional Otomi needlework but was printed on a sheer piece of polyester. I’m an old white lady in VT and I would like to think that I am both supporting a local designer and economy with this purchase. My house is filled with textiles and art gathered from here and yon some of which was definitely made for trade and benefited the artist who created it. The Herrera clothes a beautiful, but the clothes on which they are based? Exquisite and authentic. No elaboration needed.
6
Regardless of the conversations re: cultural appropriation, the designs and patterns are beautiful.
9
Cultural appropriation is nothing more than the diffusion of innovation, a model of human behavior that describes how products and ideas -- whether it's iphones or street fashion -- get adopted from the fringes of society to the mass market. It's an expression made up by bold faced name editors who want to make sure that THEY decide what fashion gets adopted. It's a form of control by white saviors trying to maintain their tenuous hold in a fragmented media era where people are brands and brands are people. And so I don't wear beads in my hair even though I'd like to. And now we see it used for a different reason: political grandstanding. But let's call this line for what it really is: gorgeous.
2
Entire artistic and design revolutions have come from the inspiration of artifacts from different cultures. The very idea of "cultural appropriation is absurd.
11
Commentators have pointed out that intellectual protection law does not now offer a solution to this problem.
So, let's figure one out.
We figured out how to cover computer software and other inventions/innovations produced in the West. So, let's put our heads together and figure out how to share profits from these native designs equitably.
2
Cultural appropriation or jealousy? Mexico should hire Herrera to design uniforms. It's the job of artists to see the culture of the quotidian in new ways and bring it to light. She's made the clothing and patterns of the poor and workers luxe. Blue jeans anyone? What would there be in museums without 'cultural appropriation' depending on your perspective? To me cultural appropriation implies denigration, a making small, a piling on to the powerless. Mexican culture is storied and respected. I think her clothes are beautiful.
6
Agree. Approbation is nit the same as being influenced by. The earth would have died without science or design influences. Herrera’s line may be richer in expensive fabrics and tailoring and design but non the less her items are beautiful and “influenced”. In high school years I went down to Tijuana with mr best friends mom and we came back with those bright flowered embroidered white “peasant” tops. We were the influencers of style and fashion in my class and I’ve been wearing whatever interests my taste and style and I often would replicate an influenced piece/garment if I could. So, now I see pieces at Whole Foods wherein indigenous woman or seamstress or designing woman can earn $ from their works. Pittance maybe but a bit of contractual trading contracts there. Not trying for simplicity or naïveté here but I can’t buy into this this approbation.
1
Since the early days of the very first trading routes ideas came hand in hand with goods.
Think of the ancient people traveling the great Silk Road do you for one minute think that no one copied a particular style of clothing because they admired it. Or the wheel or arrowheads or fishing techniques or farming techniques etc. etc.
Cultural appropriation is delusionary, every culture has something, does something or produces something that is greater than other cultures; that is the strength of our people.
10
I have an acquaintance who brought this up at a gathering a few years ago, and I used this argument against it as well. We humans have been trading 'fashion' ideas for thousands of years. Can't we think of more important subjects to argue about? Btw- nice advertising for her collection.
3
Vanessa Friedman has written a classic article about cultural appropriation - she has explained a few things to me that I hadn't understood before. I do understand that each culture is jealous and protective of its heritage, particularly when it has been belittled by history, but I didn't understand how quickly this leads to depletion of the world's aesthetic resources. Identity politics is a good thing and a bad thing. Good because it preserves cultures, bad because it isolates them. Ms. Friedman wrote: 'Their own experience becomes their sole creative fodder.' This is happening not only with creative fodder, but with communication in general. Inclusion into global consciousness is wonderful and essential, and shows us exactly why 'folk crafts' have been re-evaluated, as well as all kinds of 'other' art. Mexican embroideries are inferior to none, and Ms. Herrera's use of them in her collection spotlights them on the world stage with honor. Beauty belongs to everyone.
8
This is so much political and cultural correctness that it is boggling my mind.
So Mexico is objecting the use of 'their' cultural embroidery patterns. Should we protest and ban Italy from using tomatoes, Asia and the rest of the world from using chiles?
And in turn, shouldn't Mexico stop playing Polka music as its Ranchero version, and stop using guitars, accordion and brass instruments?
And my own personal pet peeve; the incorrect use of "Kielbasy" which means plural 'sausage' in Polish as a specific type of polish sausage. There is no 'Polish sausage' - there are hundreds different types of sausage, each with a specific name and region of origin.
Stop it!
12
As an American of Mexican descent and proud of my heritage I found the whole concept of "cultural appropriation" completely offensive and something that should be eliminated from our vocabulary.
The concept of "cultural appropriation" is an oxymoron.
Carolina, you did, as you always do, with a great line.
18
I started to read the article expecting this to be another case of overreaction. But judging by the pictures on this article this is not a case of taking inspiration, but of imitating without any consideration for the people who have been doing this for centuries. Had they made an agreement with a women's cooperative in Mexico to do the embroidery and other traditional designs, I would applaud it. Had they taken some themes and reinterpret them, I would see that as fair game, but this imitation for profit, without any benefit for the cultures they have stolen the ideas from doesn't feel right.
And yes, we are going through a cultural shift, and yes, some people overreact, but there are some limits. This looks more like imitation for lack of effort than a new interpretation of an old theme.
8
@MR
And how could you possibly decide who gets paid if somebody’s great great great great great great grandmother was the one who did the first design and copied by thousands which spreads to the regions?
7
If these designs were so important to the regional native craftspeople who produced them, and possibly even sacred, they should have hid them from public view. Yes, it was possible, very much so. Other native peoples have done so, and very successfully.
When you leave a set of designs like that open to commercial exploitation, by anyone who wants to and even yourself, and for 100+ years and all over the world, the idea of unique "ownership" gets very dilute, especially when you the current day artisan are many generations removed from their creation.
It doesn't matter what the Mexican government may say about them, or how many fingers they may admonishingly wag in other peoples' faces.
7
Cultural appropriation is a canard. Every innovation depends upon the combining of elements in a new way. The beauty of our age is that we can learn new things faster to combine them and improve lives. E.g. today we have a fabulous show called Hamilton that combines multitudes both in themes and cultures, we have jodphurs and madras, kilts and berets in the fashion world, and we have wheels on automobiles instead of carriages. Humans are all working together to accumulate knowledge and build the old upon the new. Let us take the good ideas of all cultures and celebrate them.
14
These fashion ideas have been sitting in plain view for hundreds of years.
If anyone in Mexico wants to start a fashion line utilizing traditional themes, colors and patterns, they should just go ahead and do so.
And if they make a global success of it, should Americans object that they have "culturally appropriated" our traditional capital investment, marketing, branding, and clothing approaches?
Please.
22
Maybe Herrera could be diplomatic and graciously offer college scholarships to Mexican students from each of the regions that inspired her.
15
@Jean- that's neither the problem or the remedy.
6
I'm reading this article and looking at the photos of the beautiful garments and textile designs in the Swedish country-
side and I find it astonishing how similar folk art can be in
places like Mexico, or the entire Latin America and the Nordic
Sweden. The colourful flower embroideries will be found both in Mexico and in Sweden as can the colourful striped patterns.
It is a shame that the Mexicans are taking so badly to Herrera using design like these. Instead the arts and crafts of the past, from all over the world, should be a resource and a source for new thinking.
for any art today without it being looked at suspiciously.
56
@Petras
Let's face the ugly truth here. This is not about indignant native Mexican tribes being simply offended that somebody outside their country has adopted their artistry by emulating their clothing designs. No... this is about profit, and appropriation of unique artistic designs outside the immediate area of their creation to become famous and wealthy elsewhere, with absolutely no intent of passing along that wealth to the originators of the designs. What the Mexican tribes want is not merely recognition of their art but the profits that are being collected elsewhere. Unfortunately, they apparently do not have any patents or copyrights for their art, or possibly some form of registration with their government to protect their art. They need to do that, but now that this infringement on their art has occurred, it may be too late to get that. However, they can (and should) initiate a lawsuit to block the distribution and sale of their artistic designs as depicted in clothing by a foreign manufacturer and and to demand the recovery of any profits earned by the sale of the clothing with their designs.
124
@Bonnie Jacobson
What I am saying is that folk art is often quite
similar from one continent to another. So are
original Swedish textiles very similar to those of Asia or those of Mexico. Flat woven carpets made in isolated villages in Greece have lot in common with carpets of the isolated villages
or Sweden. So where does art belong? Not
often to one tribe alone, not one people. Symbols used are often not that different from one culture to another, neither is the use of colour.
17
@Petras- perhaps they wouldn't be so offended if money were changing hands.
Fashion, or any art, is the presentation of the artists view of the world, influenced by many factors.
Sort of word for word plagiarism, or photocopying someone else's copyrighted material, it is art, for goodness sake.
The false concept of appropriation is long over due to be dismissed by any sentient creature, and has no place in society.
No one heritage or country or culture or whatever cannot claim something to be exclusively theirs.
Please, end of story!
by the way, the photos so very exciting designs and styles, all due to the artist bringing them to fruition. If they were the exclusive 'property' of some tribe or nation, we'd already have seen them.
91
Any word from the Mexican government on the restoration of lands taken from indigenous populations? Anything?
Thought not.
94
Just go to Walmart and buy whatever is cheapest.
It's no one else's business what you wear or, if you are a clothing manufacturer, make and sell.
3
I only wish I could afford to buy these beautiful garments. Actually, I would be honored if someone were to be inspired by my country and create spectacular textiles.
8
I wish that instead of discussing this from the perspective of cultural appropriation this was discussed in terms of intellectual property. So many designs that are significant to smaller, local areas are being stolen by the big brands. I feel that the whole cultural appropriation argument is silly but we cant ignore the local artisans that put their heart & soul into creating these designs. People can do whatever they want but stealing ideas, claiming your work to be "inspired" when it is clearly a rip off, and not supporting artists around the world seems to be the bigger problem. Designers can provide a bigger stage and that is great but don't hide the impact of generations of artisans have had on the local culture that has led them to creating this piece of clothing at this moment.
Good for Mexico for calling out injustices to their local artisans but please stop going on the cultural appropriation route. People can wear whatever they like and do whatever they like. It's the theft of intellectual property from the artists that you should focus on.
6
Should the people of Mexico be chastised for appropriating the styles of Spain? Surely the techniques used here are derivative of the clothing and textiles brought from Spain and Germany. Should all Mexican norteno musicians be made to stop playing songs that appropriate the Polka?
12
Imitation is a sincere form of flattery. This is a big world we live in, and we're exposed to art and handicrafts from everywhere. All countries benefit from cultural exchange. If you don't like kimonos, Nehru jackets, South American floral embroidery, or Egyptian hieroglyphs, don't buy or wear them. Look at the big picture and stop reducing everything to capitalism. When Bo Derek appeared in a movie wearing African inspired braids, it was a wonderful breakthrough and paid homage to that continent's style. In the immortal words of a famous black man in L.A., "Can't we all just get along?"
4
And please, let us all pledge to speak only our native language. Learning and using any other language is one of the clearest examples of cultural appropriation. It must stop!
12
I’m a long-time collector of Mexican and Native American textiles and jewelry. I guess I’ll no longer wear or display those items for fear of “cultural appropriation”. Which also means I’ll no longer support those artists with my purchases. What a lot of nonsense.
17
I think it might go a long way towards appeasement if the fashion houses who are appropriating traditional indigenous designs employ indigenous crafters to contribute their handwork and design elements to the couture lines.
9
I may have missed it - but were any of the comments critical of this fashion line from artisans in indigenous communities? If not, why not? Aren’t they the people with the most legitimate right to comment on the issue of appropriation?
5
Why do we remain caught up in defensive debates about apropriation?
How could fashion designers be blind to our too-long history of arrogant and exploitive appropriation? Designers are supposed to be sophisticated artists, capable of recognizing and respecting the artistic ideas of others, taking inspiration from, and totally transforming, those ideas to create something utterly their own.
Could we just all stop stealing cultural and religious symbols, music, and etc. from other peoples, in order to make money off them? This colonial imperialist inability to accept how infuriating the practice is is the ultimate insult.
Take the use of the Hawaiian tiki -- for tiki bars, tiki torches, tiki-shaped high-ball glasses with ridiculous paper umbrellas stuck in their heads.
Tikis were, and for Hawaiians who follow the old religion still are, carved representations of gods and guardian spirits. They stood within the precincts of temples and watched over royal graves.
Lifting a tiki glass at a drunken revel while wearing a plastic hula skirt (hula is an ancient art, taught to selected children in hula and chanting schools and then practiced by chosen masters) and plastic lei (there's an annual lei-making contest in Honolulu, the competitors are much respected) is the height of arrogant, ignorant, dominant-culture appropriation.
Hawaiian culture is still alive, despite all it's conquerors' attempts to destroy and belittle an ancient yet vibrant and deeply wise, past.
17
@maybemd - I don't see the parallel between a regional craft form of embroidery and design that has been offered for commercial sale since forever and all over the world, even by the natives of the region among others, and a sacred carving or deity image.
19
@laguna greg
From within the First Nation cultures that I am familiar with, the designs are sacred. Certain geometrical forms, placement of the design in the embroidery, as well as the symbols themselves are related to the culture, the myths and stories of those communities. We are clueless...so brought into a buy and sell culture. We do not even know how to say "thank you" without feeling the need to give money.
2
@Rebecca Tippens - well that's all very well and good. Does it matter to you that these "sacred" designs may well have originated someplace else, at least most of them, in every sense? In a way that predates them significantly? And that the cultural influence and transfer may be overtly obvious and highly documented, even to a specific date? As is the case here?
For myself, I can hardly take seriously a claim of cultural theft of the "sacred", when those same designs, techniques and color schemes have been in commercial sale for 100+ years and globally. If those same native people wanted them kept sacred, they should have kept them secret and hidden, as other native peoples have done and continue to do for their cultural and spiritual treasures.
I don't believe in the overt exploitation of native peoples today, any more than has already taken place. But this idea in this context has gone too far. And the real truth is that this is not the real or the most damaging problem these people face today. Can we please focus on their most pressing problems? And it's not embroidery theft.
30
Would this response have been different if Herrera had hired some of the Mexican artisans to be involved in the production of the collection?
1
@jockofthesnowveld - it's almost a certainty that she already did, at many levels, in her atelier and in her production factories. You almost can't avoid it.
1
Kind of the way they did it? The native and indiginous artists are due compensation immediately ,in Latin america and in Africa ,austrailia down under where ever .The patterns and colors are tribal and artist representative ,not generic.
2
The Herrera clothes are spectacular. It would be a shame for them not to exist. Perhaps the designer could and should go further in detailing inspirations given the world today but please let’s not shame creations like this out of existence.
135
@LS
Let's shame them out of imitating without acknowledging or sharing in the profits. They could have made some agreements with fair trade groups that would do the embroidery for them, helping the economy of the countries they are copying from, and acknowledge they are using patterns that belong to those cultures, It could be great publicity, but copying their work and saying it is inspired by a vacation and a sunset is not right.
22
@MR
The designer did acknowledge the inspiration for the collection. It's absurd to suggest sharing in the profits. Good God, I'm Italian, do I need to pay someone to eat a taco? Everything is a springboard to create.
30
@Skc
There is a difference between inspiration and copy, and if you had read carefully what I wrote, you would have noticed that I was suggesting a partnership and bringing work to the people that have been doing this for generations. And I am assuming you pay for you food.
14
Times: '... the idea of a “Latin holiday.”'
That phrase can be found on the Carolina Herrera web site, which doesn't even mention Mexico. And "Latin" is not a substitute.
This problem could be solved by hiring someone with a fashion history (or art history) background to help write marketing statements.
There is an excellent precedent in how auction houses describe art works to be auctioned. See the Christie's web site for examples (look under "Stories").
2
I'm guessing the Herrera line has the deeper pockets too .
Embroidery is thousands of years old. Things are going too far when merely embroidering flowers on a dress amounts to cultural theft. The Minoans embroidered flowers on their dresses in 2000 BC. That was their fashion statement. Maybe Crete should sue Mexico. And Scotland should sue anyone who isn't Scottish who wears plaid. The Irish can hunt down non-Irish people wearing tweed. And the French must defend the beret by any means necessary.
9
I want that beautiful striped dress: I can't afford it. To Mexican companies out there: feel free to knock off Carolina Herrera's designs here, maybe you can make them more affordable.
11
So what's the problem? Embroidery by artisans from around the globe has been copied for decades. The Mexican politicians don't have enough to complain about?? Laughable.
6
When I first saw some samples from this collection, I was shocked at what a rip off of Mexican culture it was. Dresses with Mexican embroidery have been popular for years and usually priced under $50. I’m sure these dresses are in the thousands. Well at least most consumers and admirers of fashion recognize the theft even tho the designers don’t.
3
So no native speaker of English can ever say, "This design mogul is not a fashion guru, but a thug, who stole designs and thought she could get away with it since it's jungle law." Mogul being of Persian origin and guru, thug, and jungle being "appropriated" from Hindi, by colonial masters. Language is cultural too.
See how wayyyy overboard we are going with cultural appropriation?
9
So, who was wronged by what? And how is the wrongdoer supposed to make amends? All a puzzlement to me. Or, is this one of those things where, if I have to ask, I’m not “woke” enough to be reading the NYT’s fashion editor in the first place?
4
Sorry, much Ado about nothing. Another example of political correctness run amok. Fashion, music, and all of the arts are one continuous creative stream where what has gone before influences and inspires what comes after. To try and dam that stream and declare MINE, DON'T TOUCH is selfish and unrealistic.
6
.
TL;DR, but its appropriation or segregation
.
If a designer or a consumer is influenced by specific cultural norms in fashion and then expressively interprets it with their personal creativity and perspective, so what? That is not cultural appropriation or even emulation - it is simply a composite of the many elements we all experience and are influenced by - as we live our daily lives - and will then create as - a dress - a sculpture - a painting or any other creative expression. This is not a line for line - flat out - form of forgery. It is one person's creative expression and nothing more or less than that. To misconstrue this as something other than what it is - individual creative expression - is absurd.
8
It is a bit disappointing to see all the comments defending the designers by using the way back machine. What was acceptable in the past does not automatically make acceptable in the present.
It is simply gross to lift designs and techniques from an indigenous people who have been exploited in order to make luxury goods. As previously pointed out, it is nothing new (nor is it lacking company, look at Ralph Lauren and his Native American inspirations) but again that does not make it right.
After writing this I should probably no longer wear my Derelict collection by Mogatu.
7
I think the Mexican Government has much more serious issues to deal with. I'm not at all convinced there is any such thing as "cultural appropriation", as far as I am concerned no one/no nation "owns" a particular style to the exclusion of everyone else in the world.
11
Ulla Johnson, a major designer, uses Indian prints and crafts, in garments made in India, sells them here at crazy prices, and never once mentions her "inspiration" from Indian paintings, architecture, and existing textile motifs, that of course have been designed by others. Because there is no origin story to these designs, designers in the west use them without once acknowledging their borrowing. We are supposed to see them as their brainwaves. They use labor that is often poorly paid, and invisible. This is a familiar story at many companies- SEA NY, Apiece Apart, Ace and Jig, all "develop" prints, but these are really not theirs- they are free floating textile, and artistic motifs. My issue is the refusal to give any credence to the cultures that inspire them, or the labor that actually produces these clothes. These are not geniuses, just watchful copyists.
5
These are beautiful garments, and I feel they raise attention to, and honour the Mexican crafters. What about all the cheap Mexican curios that are sold everywhere, and have no authenticity? Possibly the designers could contribute to programmes that further advance cultural heritage and exchange, and in that way both benefit?
7
No apologies necessary in my opinion. As an American I "culturally appropriate" nearly everything. I'd wear a Sarree all summer if I could because they are gorgeous and beautiful. I can almost understand if the designs or marketing of them were meant to degread but that's not what's happening.
11
The Otomi (or Otomi-inspired) embroidery in the gown in the first picture is gorgeous, but what makes the dress stunning is Carolina Herrera's design. You can get expensive, hand-embroidered Otomi bedspreads, table runners, and lampshades, but the Otomi embroidered dresses offered for sale are ordinary shifts or sundresses and don't have anything like the Herrera wow factor. This gown is good marketing for this beautiful handwork. (And maybe the embroidery on the gown was done by Otomi women.) Where was the indignation of the Mexican cultural minister when Target splashed these prints all over sheets?
32
@Renee Ozer- very well said! It's really just about the money. The sense of cultural outrage is misplaced and overblown to be taken too seriously.
1
Beauty comes from everywhere and from all traditions. Artists and designers have always and should be inspired by the work of foreign cultures. It is a way of paying homage to it. However, it would be ethical when drawing very closely on the traditions and handiwork of a particular culture to employ those people in creating the product in some way. Also, while I agree that not all things are cultural appropriation , there is a history of white people exploiting the cultures and styles of other peoples so designers should be sensitive to that. The history of white colonial exploitation is very present for many indigenous or exploited races and cultures. Maybe there is a win win solution here.
9
The difference between plagiarism and fair use are a pair of quotes or a footnote. The category of intellectual property law known as trade dress offers very limited protection to the original creator. That's why designs from the runway are copied and dumbed down and find there way into the racks of retailers catering to the masses. In the case in point, where the obligation is of a moral nature and not legal, an appropriate amends would be to honor and publicize the women in the community where this work is found and in a better world, invite them into the design or manufacturing practice with fair consideration for their contribution.
11
I believe there is a similar issue in Africa in which Chinese textile companies have flooded African countries with inexpensive cloth printed with appropriated African designs and, effectively, wiped out the local textile industry.
And the situation in Australia is also remarkable. Aussie tourist marketing makes a lot of use of Aboriginal motifs (and music) but when I lived in Oz for a while... Aborigines were essentially invisible in both daily life and in the media.
11
the "appropriate african designs" are probably copied from the prevailing & historical dutch prints sold all over africa
@Engineer
I think this is different. I don't think it had anything to do with the designs per se. The price was driving sales. They wanted cheap fabric.
The Africans didn't have to buy the textiles if they were upset with the designs.
Just like Americans they wanted cheap and didn't understand what would happen to local jobs.
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
Charles Caleb Colton
This movement expresses respect, even admiration, for the beauty of Mexico and its culture.
25
@Meta1How do you know that?
@Carol Wheeler - because it's not that hard to figure out.
2
It’s really about authenticity and respect. For that there is an actual fashion house in Mexico City sourcing from indigenous communities. Check out Carla Fernández on the web. It would be great if companies could learn to combine profits with ethics.
10
Artists and creatives take their inspiration from wherever they want. That's what they do. Unless they make it overtly racist for example. That's another story. So they could have approached this another way, fine. I don't think this situation is a crime against humanity. So cultures who adopt Western forms of dress should stop wearing them?
21
Vanessa, please, how about a little background on the artisans' designs. Where do you think those designs came from?
6
.
@Daisy Clampit,
.
From the Aztecs from whom the Spanish conquistadors appropriated it and from whom the mestizos appropriated it?
.
@Ken Lewis, or the more contemporary artisans were actually influenced by Spanish, Norwegian or Russian embroidery techniques, patterns, designs and even color schemes that were brought over with the Spanish invasion of the 15h century...and that these "original and unique" ethnic craft pieces very, very closely resemble, almost to a "t", and that also predates them.
2
I don’t see why Carolina Herrera would owe anything to anyone, we are free to make and wear whatever clothes we want. Just search for “Mexican serape” and tons of colorful striped products appear, made all over the world, from plastic picnic sets, to clothing, blankets, sneakers, you name it. Should YSL have paid Russian peasants to make his famous 70’s collection they inspired? Does anyone making a dirndl dress have to pay off the people of Bavaria? Of course not, and even starting up something like this would be absurd. No one could possibly define where to draw any lines. Just think of the billions of dollars bathrobe makers would owe the Japanese for referencing kimonos.
31
@GO”Have to” is one thing, but need to to show one’s good intentions is something else.
In this case and so many others, nothing was stolen, it was shared with a wider audience. How sterile would life be if all of the attributes different cultures add into the world’s flavorful gumbo pot were isolated based on geography or ethnicity?
25
The question about how to enlighten the fashion industry and avoid indignant (and sometimes hypocritical) eye rolls is disingenuous.
The use of "exotic" patterns and design hurts especially because fashion thrives on the exploitation of cheap labor in the same countries where the design comes from. Investing in creating a fair supply chain for ALL clothing, not just a fancy few, would make a real difference. Let's remember that the big fashion houses are just the top of an industry that is well known for its disregard of labor safety and fair wages.
9
Yes, and let's prevent South African soprano Pretty Yende from singing Donizetti because she's not Italian. Oh, and those African masks that Picasso ripped off! Let's burn those paintings.
48
Speaking as a German: I love seeing people from all over the world attending the Bavarian Octoberfest in traditional dirndls and lederhosen. This outrage about cultural appropriation in fashion is ridiculous.
45
Being Portuguese, I recently felt that I "needed" to have the "Portugaba" bag, by Christian Louboutin, which he designed inspired by Portuguese traditions of embroidery and textile. The materials for the construction of the bag are made by Portuguese artisans; moreover, Louboutin promises 10% of the sale of these bags to an Association of Artisans in my country. Perhaps other designers, such as the ones mentioned in the article, could take the same approach.
23
I blame Dale Evans and the poodle on my wife’s 50’s skirt. It is only clothing. I can remember when it was considered wrong to depict the US flag on clothing.
13
used to be illegal, not wrong
3
Should a Creative Director take other people's designs? Why not create his own?
1
I think the clothes are very pretty.
19
So, if you go to Mexico and buy an embroidered blouse to wear, is that cultural appropriation? Or, for that matter, is it wrong to buy a bottle of Mezcal to drink?
17
@Decent Human most of the embroidered blouses in the shop on Aldama heading to the central Jardin are imports from China. Chilling.
2
@Decent Human. Not at all. Those things are made by people there, who are profiting by their sale.
This collection is beautiful. The beauties of other cultures enrich our lives.
Should Americans be eating spaghetti or kung pao chicken?
19
So maybe Luigino "Jeno" Francesco Paulucci should have been strung up for inventing & developing Chun King Chinese food ? What about "Chef" Boyardee ?
As "decent Human" says here in the comments - maybe we should forget about buying their products. See how that works.
With the advent of the Internet, a large portion of the human population has officially gone mad.
16
These protests are not about the appropriation of culture; they are protests about someone else making money on what they think belongs to them.
16
@JET III - and ironically enough, the natives are not the ones complaining about it, just the government minister.
1
A lot of the commenters are missing the point here, it seems to me — this is not about run of the mill cultural appropriation and inspiration. This is about the fact that a wealthy fashion house borrowed specific motifs that are attributed to specific indigenous cultures in Mexico, who have very regional and very well documented textile traditions, and who have none of the resources of the people who are making or purchasing these clothes, and didn't bother collaborating with or trying to benefit them in any way. The designers could have hired Mexican artisans to produce some of these garments, or even donated a tiny percentage of profits to them, and this would have been more ethical. Take a look at the first image and then Google "Tenango de Doria in Hidalgo textile" — you'll see what I mean.
22
@MK, it is interesting to me that you claim it would have been enough for the fashion house to work with these groups whose *ancestors* (let’s remember) developed these designs. I realize my views are somewhat radical, but I don’t believe I have special ownership of the cultural practices of my ancestors, who came from both dominant and disadvantaged groups. Instead, I wish we would focus on reducing inequality globally, and otherwise encouraging the flourishing of art. I feel art here is being unfairly punished for our otherwise dumb and self-centered political and economic policies.
3
Almost all art is cultural appropriation. Did Stravinsky pay royalties to the Russian peasants whose folk songs he appropriated for THE RITE OF SPRING? Did Van Gogh pay royalties to the Japanese artists he emulated? Did the porcelain makers of 18th century England pay royalties to the Chinese? Should all the Thai and Indian chefs in the world pay royalties to Central and South America because chili peppers were originally only indigenous there, and have been "appropriated" by those cuisines?
The world is a place where culture and knowledge move around, shift, meld and merge. It's a fool's errand to claim any one part of it off limits because of its point of origin.
37
@Paul S. Yes -- an old saying in music: the best steal from the best.
3
I can only hope that more women stop buying from designers like Caroline Herrera...who refuse to make clothing in anything but sample sizes. She can't even wear her own line!!!!! Cultural appropriation and size discrimination! Stop buying from these designers. Fashion democracy! Care about your fellow women!
9
Could we please jail the "appropriation" people?
15
The Mexican government, or anyone in Mexico for that matter, should not be using Instagram as they are merely appropriating an American technology and media forum. They need to create their own technology and media and stop appropriating ours immediately! Cultural thiefs!
48
"... using, for its own ends, embroidery techniques and patterns specific to certain Mexican indigenous communities ..."
Anyone can play the grievance game. Here's my move:
Mexican artist Frida Kahlo lived in Detroit for a time. While there, Kahlo painted a self-portrait titled "Henry Ford Hospital" (1932).
The painting appropriates the name of the hospital, which is *in English*, the design of the hospital bed, and the image of a fetus, which appears to be taken from a medical illustration.
And note the skyline in the background -- that's not Mexico.
For images, do a web search for "Frida Kahlo Henry Ford Hospital".
24
@NPV Exactly. Ms. Kahlo, gave attribution to Henry Ford Hospital (HFHS). She did not lead one to believe that it was inspired by some generic nebulous place arising simply from her imagination while in Detroit.
5
marielle: "She [Kahlo] did not lead one to believe that it was inspired by some generic nebulous place arising simply from her imagination while in Detroit."
I'm fairly sure Kahlo was not worrying about being accused of appropriation when she painted "Henry Ford Hospital" (1932).
However, after looking at the Carolina Herrera web site, I agree that the marketing position is "generic[ally] nebulous".
Here is an exact quote. It doesn't even mention Mexico, and "Latin" is not a substitute. And the Spanglish phrase "spirit of alegría de vivir" is redundant:
"The Carolina Herrera Resort 2020 Collection takes on the playful and colorful mood of a Latin holiday. Inspired by the House spirit of alegría de vivir that is synonymous with the resort season, this collection is about visceral reactions of delight-eclectic patterns, unexpected silhouettes, pulsating energy." (Carolina Herrera web site)
3
At a time when Mexico and Mexican culture are under attack by the Trump Administration, it seems rather counterintuitive for the Mexican Culture Minister to denounce such a positive cultural homage to Mexican creativity and natural beauty. It’s not as if images of “El Chapo” were in the prints
33
"... using, for its own ends, embroidery techniques and patterns specific to certain Mexican indigenous communities ..."
Anyone can play the grievance game. Here's my move:
Mexican artist Frida Kahlo lived in Detroit, USA, for a time. While there, Kahlo painted a self-portrait titled "Henry Ford Hospital" (1932).
The painting appropriates the name of the hospital, which is painted *in English*, the design of the hospital bed, and the image of a fetus, which appears to be taken from a medical illustration.
And note the skyline in the background -- that's not Mexico.
Images of the painting are online. Do a web search for "Frida Kahlo Henry Ford Hospital".
Disclaimer: The above is not a criticism of Kahlo. The above shows the absurdity of complaining about "appropriation".
6
People don't seem to get why this is offensive. First of all, these indigenous patterns have been weaved by hand for hundreds of years. These women who are still weaving them by hand are living in EXTREME poverty. If Carolina Herrera wanted to pay homage to Mexico, they should have collaborated with the indigenous population. Instead they will be making millions off of other people's culture. There is no problem with sharing Mexican culture, there is a problem with who is profiting off of it.
18
@Suzie
So the gist of your complaint is that those Mexicans should get money for Ms. Herrera's inspiration?
That's a discussion to be had, but to 'ban' people from buying her work or castigate her is beyond the pale.
12
Right so - I think it’s now more than time for Chancellor Merkel to write a stiff letter to Corona and Modelez, scolding them for their cultural expropriation of traditional German beer culture, not even to speak about the poor execution of the fake design for their products!
22
For heaven's sake will this appropriation nonsense ever end? Miley Cyrus was recently forced to apologize for saying that she does not like hip-hop. Another person for wearing a Chinese dress. The manufactured outrage is a rabbit hole that swallows everything it touches. Thank you, Humanities departments.
39
@Kai That's kind of a different discussion though.... Those people are appropriating general cultural archetypes so it's not really about intellectual property. This is about specific textile designs created by specific people — people who just so happen to be living in poverty. It's just not super ethical that she didn't collaborate with or donate to the folks who actually designed the textile motifs she used in this collection. I think the article should have defined that point a bit better.
1
I was once harangued by one of the "grievance" folks while onstage for playing Blues. Even though I was quite good from a young age ,I was told I must stop as people of my "ilk" shouldn't be allowed. You can guess why.
8
@MK
Suppose let's say Carolina Herrera did not "appropriate" specific textile designs created by those specific people of Mexico, would their lives be lifted out of poverty anyway? I would think that after Ms. Herrera having exposed, however unwittingly, their skills as weavers and embroiderers to a wider audience, some of us might actually travel there and buy ourselves an original, authentic piece of textile or other crafts. Perhaps the Mexican government should be grateful somebody is promoting some of their indigenous culture abroad.
5
So this is what liberal outrage looks like. Dinging the Mexican Minister of Culture over her response to a line of clothing obviously "borrowed" from indigenous peoples and with the amazingly sensitive name "the Resort Collection" - which doesn't in anyway come across as condescending and colonial (sarcasm alert).
I'm NOT liberal, you say cultural appropriation and normally you'll see a great deal of skepticism on my part, yet I at least see a discussion worth having. The complete inability to even hold the debate or show the smallest amount of empathy in the most popular comments really calls into question what "liberal" is supposed to mean here. Perhaps it means where you can afford to shop?
4
'... with the amazingly sensitive name "the Resort Collection" ... (sarcasm alert).'
"Resort Collection" is a term of art in the fashion industry:
Resort Collections are a Walk on the Whimsical Side
By Cathy Horyn
June 12, 2013
New York Times
For more, see the Wikipedia article, "Cruise collection".
1
This is bordering silliness. Didn't Mexico appropriate clothing from Europe in the first place? I am pretty sure Mexican men wore loin cloth at some point. And didn't Mexico appropriated the Far East when it started embroidery? There, that settles it.
Couture is an art form which is allowed to be inspired by what constitutes beauty.
28
Reparations? Help indigenous women who still do traditional embroidery on their clothes to expand and be recognized.
6
I think George Gershwin is about to be in big trouble. How dare a Brooklyn-born Jewish man write Porgy & Bess! The horror! And An American in Paris with the orchestra sounding like Paris taxis! All his music must be banned from the radio immediately and removed from the repertoire of any symphony orchestra or opera company that is not all-black.
Will the “silly season” never end?
31
Fashion designers steal. Period. Ralph Lauren made an entire career out of updating old styles of dress.
The ones who get the most acclaim do it better, in that they make something wearable for the current style conscious.
And most of us who like to wear "ethnic" clothing do the same ( my ethnicity is American mongrel; I have no native designs to draw from, except maybe Levis and sweatshirts).
Agreed that the stealing here is pretty egregious - and should be acknowledged. But the designer appropriations -- and maybe the hoohah -- might bring more attention to the Mexican origins, which can be a good thing. Something that might have been seen by the trendy as too "granola" for them suddenly has cachet.
Maybe it will result in more attention paid to the originals
4
@cheryl
Fashion Designers, like Chefs and Architects get INSPIRATION from all sorts of things; for you, or anyone to call it 'theft' shows a distinct lack of understanding of the law.
6
There is nothing new under the sun. Artists and designers have always reinterpreted from the past in order to create something new. This is a naive and rather ridiculous objection from the culture minister.
23
I was doing textile research today referring to a book titled Peasant Art of Europe" by H. Th Bossert (1929). To those not familiar with this book - it is full of textile designs of clothing, cloth, rugs,bags, shoes, tools, and pottery from all over Europe. Many items are so similar to each other and to those of Mexico. There are not that many different ways to approach hand stitched textiles or rugs. These universal designs are centuries old and cannot be really be "owned". They are all based on the structure of the work, tools and materials. There is no theft here. The collection is amazing too.
21
Remember when people used the term "knock-off"? Designers have historically been influenced by "indigenous" cultures from around the world. If anything, it's an homage to that culture.
11
It's theft. But most western art is theft and has been theft since the day Picasso started looking at African masks.
I'm not exactly shrugging it off but I am saying, if we, as a culture are going to start actually thinking this stuff through we are going to have to reckon with a tectonic shift in our perspective on how we regard art and what we think of as original.
Nothing comes from nothing, after all.
7
@Stephanie - Oh, it started way long before Picasso had the idea to "steal" anything. Every culture has practiced it.
And it's not theft, no matter how outraged people make themselves about it.
2
I think the designs are gorgeous and am usually a fan of Carolina Hererra (except her goofy rule that people over 40 shouldn't wear jeans, Ha!) But I think going forward collaborating is the best way of going about this and being hand held by the real artists of what is appropriate and what is going way to far would be ideal. Let money be made by all!
5
This is ridiculous. She’s a fashion designer. She was inspired by what she saw in Mexico, and named the line to pay tribute to that inspiration. To be a creative person in the world is to see or hear or taste or otherwise experience one thing and to be inspired to create another. Ask any writer or artist the origin of one of their creations, and 9 times out of 10, it did not come from thin air. It came from a story they heard, the way they noticed another artist using color or the sound of the water rushing over rocks in a creek on their hike. This is how creativity works. Brava to Carolina Herrera for creating such a beautiful and appropriately titled collection.
25
Is it cultural appropriation when LL Bean and other companies sell shirts and skirts in specific Scottish clan tartans?
22
I'm a member of a real 3rd World native village indigenous craftswomen’s cooperative.
I agree with much of the criticism ridiculing this issue.
Still, an important problem of the misappropriation of the authorship rights of the traditional Mexican artisan exists.
Still, at least, the called-out brand-name Carolina Herrera
refrained from claiming to be “helping the artisans”.
It’s like a slap in the face when a business promotes one’s own creations in one´s own name, proclaiming that that they are one’s benefactor, when this is nothing but a ruse.
As Mexicans, this hurts us worse than the thought of a 5th Avenue runway fashion designer’s Mexico-inspired dresses.
(Those stylized animals are from Oapan on the Balsas River.)
Commercial Humanitarianism is all over the internet.
But, buy-low and sell-high remains the cold commandment
in the rich temples of the humanitarian importer middleman.
These buyers disrespectfully toss around ‘Chac Mol’ and ‘The Virgin of Guadalupe’ Handcrafts is in the public domain yes; but the dirtying of the good name of our cultural product is legally proscribed; better watch out!
since we stand on our rights as artisans and the authors of culture alongside the great national hero, Jose Marie Morelos in Sentiments of the Nation, particularly article ten.
As the Artcamp cooperative, we are the daughters of jewelry-makers thanking the Minister of Culture for at least wagging the government's finger for the sake of Mexican craftspeople.
11
@Maria Alaniz
Congratulations for your excellent comment, since what you express is reality. Hidalgo Tenagos, copied without any doubt. Warm greetings.
1
@Maria Alaniz - " ...but the dirtying of the good name of our cultural product is legally proscribed; better watch out!"
That is exactly what I thought. Thank you for your excellent and informative comment. I only hope you and your peers can find a wider audience for both your very fine crafts and your voices.
I surely hope that each critic that believes Carolina Herrera is doing wrong here has bought a ticket to Mexico and is planning, has donated more than tokens to an organization cultivating the arts in Mexico, or is now supporting indigenous populations there. Otherwise, Herrera would be doing more by disseminating the art that a critic that simply comments here.
It should also be said that Mexican artisans and genuine artists are being decimated by cheap imported designs manufactured in China and designed in the US. That an American Fashion line is echoing Mexican designs is in fact a plus in many ways as it points to the value of traditional Mexican motifs.
25
I think political correctness in art and fashion has gone too far. There is nothing new under the sun and just about any design has an origin somewhere. Artists have for centuries "taken" ideas from each other and other cultures and there really has been no problem until recently. I think there is a bit of jealousy in this case with all the money being made. Many times artists see their work go for far more money then they sold it for, and they have no recourse either.
42
It is not too late. The Herrera designers should work with Mexican indigenous communities, seek their input and perspective, and find ways for those communities to benefit. Despite this inauspicious beginning, the Herrera-Mexico collaboration could become a model for future fashion collections.
12
@CA Reader And they should also feature non-white, indigenous models!
3
If the Mexican government is so concerned about the protection of the cultural heritage of their indigenous people, they should have been seeking legal protection for specific designs and assisting in the establishment of manufacturing facilities that would be licensed to use the designs and motifs in an appropriate way. Think of the improvements to living conditions and health if these protections could have been put in place and vigorously defended. The French have created protections around specific names and methods of production for food and wine. There have been successive waves of interest in Mexican designs which have come and gone over the years. There is no excuse for the Mexican Government not to have stepped in and taken charge long ago. An outcry against an outsider is no defense against base neglect on their own part.
51
True. But your whole argument ignores that this Mexican Government has been in office for just six months, and betrays your lacknof knowledge about how different this particular government is versus any other one in their recent history. If you are going to make a point -as valid as it might be- get informed and provide context, otherwise you are missing more than half of the point.
1
@Elizabeth Hensley Well, there is Fonart. It's a start. (But more is needed).
@Rick Aldai
True. But your whole argument ignores the fact that the new Mexican government should be too busy to worry about Herrera's 2020 collection.
2
If we get riled up over Canal St. bags and the fake logo belts sold online, we should at least consider that there is a difference between "inspiration" and "copying" when it comes to patterns, techniques, and so forth. Still, I wouldn't have the first idea about where to draw the line between the two.
5
Perhaps artists should not be influenced by other cultures, or even other artists.
13
@DJ: What does an "other" culture mean here? If the artist's culture is constituted by what they incorporate in their work, then your rule becomes something of a tautology.
@ DJ
The first thing you should know about art is that all of it is inspired and influenced by something - very often other art. No art appears full blown from the mind of the artist without massive input from the rest of the world. It’s simply impossible. A quote that is widely attributed to Pablo Picasso says it well, “Good artists copy; great artists steal.”
The second thing you should know about art is that to be an important artist you must be an influential artist. As far as art history is concerned, if you don’t influence artists around you or who come after you you might be an interesting footnote but never more than that. What does being an influential artist mean? It means that aspects of your work are incorporated into the work of others. To put it bluntly it means that you are copied, stolen from if you will.
To participate in the world of art then requires the tolerance of theft. Those who rail about cultural appropriation or artistic plagiarism would condemn us to a sterile, repetitive world of narrow cultural silos. Aspects of this cultural narrowing are evident already in my own behavior. A small example from the world of fashion. I have been lusting after a certain kind of beautiful embroidered kaftan, made in Mexico by indigenous weavers. I could buy one of these from several reputable sources, all of which funnel money back to these artisans. But I am going to give it a pass. Given the current cultural climate I just would not be comfortable wearing it.
152
@Susan You're telling me this? That's why I put that up there. Art is a part of the human experience. To deny cultural exchange would be denying cultural progress. We might as well ban people from visiting other countries, or ban the learning from history.
1
I have always liked to dress with the works of people from Mexico. That began as a teenager in the seventies when I was given a dress by a relative of mine. I like the authentic stuff, not the grossly misappropriated items of the Carolina Herrera collection. The real stuff exists and is still produced by the people of Mexico, its sales benefiting the artisans, not a rich company. This was done because the artisans are poor people in their majority and were unlikely to defend themselves. I am glad the government of Mexico is taking this matter in their hands since the people who maintain this ancestral art deserve to be protected and not blatantly plagiarized.
22
@CoquiCoqui
I too admire the beautiful clothing produced by hand weavers and embroiderers in Mexico. But I can no longer justify buying it because I no longer feel comfortable wearing it. I obviously have no Mexican heritage. It would be like putting feathers in my hair. It’s such an obvious act of cultural appropriation. I’d rather just avoid the possibility of a public scolding. I do believe this accusation by the Mexican cultural minister will produce an unintended chilling effect on all Mexican art and craft.
What a missed opportunity! Herrera’s collection could have been used to highlight Mexican artistry and to educate the world about it. Imagine if the cultural minister had said something on the lines of, “We are pleased to have been the inspiration behind this collection of lovely clothes. Come let me show you our native artisans can do and what else we have to offer...”
4
Hah, this topic has me riled up.
The fact is this discussion wouldn't have happened --even just 25 years ago.
- It is the reach of social media now down to a small village in the middle of nowhere, because non-voices have a voice now.
- It is because the world is seeing more and more vocal left liberals, talking bluntly about colonialist attitude of the past, (Europe and US are mired in it)--and this mentality of international social justice, what is wrong for me-is wrong for that jute seller, somewhere in Bangladesh.
- Would Ms Herrera have done this if the designs, the technique, the embroidery were patents, trademarks of another fashion house. No.
She would have had to take permission and have a time limit and pay a price to do that.
Her own house has multiple clothe-weaving patents which are specific to her brand.
Here the artistic property belongs to nobodies, who probably wouldn't even know what a patent is-- most of indigenous cultures in the world don't have business know-how.
And in the end, it is all about money, like everything else in business-- if there was no money involved here, I believe Mexicans would be applauding this to be brought to forefront of fashion. This is where exploitation comes in.
Money!
10
"... who probably wouldn't even know what a patent is ..."
That's condescending. And the relevant intellectual property protection would be copyright, not patent.
Although, as the article explains, "most fashion designs don’t enjoy intellectual property protections".
That's what people should be complaining about.
As for traditional designs, they would be in the public domain, and therefore not protected by copyright.
There are numerous books on copyright law. Check your library.
18
@NPV
uhm, design patent is probably the correct legal entity. used to be valid for 14 years, so it's much more limited than copyright, which enjoys enormous protections, depending on country of origin.
also, most of what's cultural generally falls under public domain.
it will be interesting to see where this stops - and how low one can go as far as claims of appropriation are concerned.
there are so many other areas of the world that deserve our energy and attention right now. beautiful clothes, priced beyond reach of all but the few, should be the least of our worries while there are still actual problems awaiting solutions. but sure, go ahead and utilize your indignation over something that in a rational world would not matter at all. this strikes me as a symptom of much that is wrong with our society.
7
@NPV
Thank you for the correction... embroidery design and weaving is under the copyright laws.
The special machines used for weaving and for specific embroidery are patents.
But the point stands.
2
I'm not one to jump on the cultural appropriate bandwagon, but these particular designs go beyond being "inspired" - these are for all practical purposes exact replicas of indigenous textiles. And these are not just "designs" - hence where many of the arguments that I am reading in the comments section seem to be making false equivalences. This is not the same as a striped shirt or cafe au lait. These are stunning and intricate works of art that are an intimate part of the cultural identity of the indigenous communities that produce them. Add to that the power and wealth imbalance - there is no attempt at collaboration with the communities or any sharing of the profits. I don't have a problem with someone buying an indigenous huipil and wearing it, and I would not have a problem with a designer working with local artisans, incorporating their work into unique designs, and sharing the profits accordingly. But this collection just reeks of colonialism.
28
"... these are for all practical purposes exact replicas of indigenous textiles."
If you do a Google images search for "mexican textiles", you will find thousands of designs.
Which one is exactly replicated in the first photo (the strapless gown with embroidered flowers and animals and a black sash)?
20
@NPV It's a classic Otomi tapestry - you can google it. The black with the flowers are Tehuana. The serape... do I need to identify that? That one is the least offensive. I work with an indigenous language in Mexico, so although I can't speak for any individual or group, I have some insight into the meaning and importance of these designs for the communities and people that make them. These are living communities that have maintained their languages and dress despite years of oppression. In the region where I work, the designs are a marker of one's cultural identity and embody aspects of pre-Columbian cosmology. They are a source of great pride. Of course, you will find tourist items throughout Mexico emblazoned with these designs, and indigenous communities and artisans are undeniably and inextricably a part of the global economy. They have both incorporated elements from other cultures (including the Spaniards) into their own designs and had their designs incorporated by others. But there is something about this particular collection and the way that it was done that has stuck a nerve for many people in Mexico. You can google Pineda Covalin to see a different model for incorporating these designs into fashion, collaborating with artisans, and giving back to communities.
14
Maria: "It's a classic Otomi tapestry - you can google it."
There are two important differences:
1. The gown has large unembroidered sections that alternate with the embroidered sections. Two of the unembroidered sections are clearly visible in the photo.
2. The gown pattern is framed in brown diamonds that are the flower stems. I couldn't find that sort of regular geometry in the online images of Otomi tapestries.
Anyway, it would be nice if the Times did a followup article on the origins of the designs.
7
Oh well, guess I can’t have that enchilada for dinner tonight. The Political Correctness police will be all over me for appropriating Mexican food.
77
Agree with you completely. I guess the nice people who ran a food truck in this rural area and managed to parlay that into a small restaurant are now going to be called out by the self righteous left. Have no idea if anyone associated with the place is of Mexican heritage but the food is good.
8
Fascinating, but there is no such thing as cultural appropriation. Culture is free to everyone to use as they please, neo-Marxist cant notwithstanding.
71
Culture is an illusion
9
Dear Ms. Frausto, and like-minded individuals, there seems to be some confusion as to the kinds of things it is possible to own, and therefore what it is appropriate to be outraged over. To aid you, I will point out a few of the things that may not be owned:
1) A color palette
2) The general cut of a garment
3) The weave of a fabric
4) Stripes (in the absence of a specific trademark)
5) Stylized floral patterns (in the absence of a specific trademark)
6) Hairstyles
7) The manner in which cosmetics are applied
I'm glad i could clear that up for you, feel free to apologize for blowing your top anytime.
38
@Alexander - thanks for that. People are confusing patents and trademarks.
2
Perhaps we are headed for a dystopia in which we are issued a guidebook at birth in accordance with one’s background and ‘privilege.’ The book will, with frequent updates, define exactly what behavior and utterances are ok for the unfortunate infant.
42
I have traveled to Mexico for many years, and bought the beautiful textiles worked into clothing. The problem is that the clothing - whether blouses or dresses - are traditional i.e. baggy and unflattering - and of rough cotton. This in no way is meant as an insult to Mexicans (help!) but an observation that because the textiles are indigenous and traditional, so are the outfits.
Perhaps this is a wake-up call: Mexican designers should be educating and employing these skilled indigenous women to apply their craft to finer cottons and more stylish clothing. There's a market waiting!
50
@Jill
Agree. Why did it take Herrera designer to be inspired by traditional Mexican textiles? Where are the Mexican designers (appropriating ideas from Europe?) The beauty and versatility of traditional Mexican textiles are now front and center in the fashion world. People should be excited. (Although, Herrera designer should have given overt credit to the Mexican communities from which the inspiration arose.)
2
@Jill Yes, it's pretty obvious that the people complaining are just envious that they didn't upmarket their indigenous designs into high fashion already. It took a foreign fashion house to show them how, so that makes them angry. But hey, Catholics, envy is a cardinal sin. Cultural appropriation is not. So there you have it. Repent now.
2
I thought to be inspired by one culture and to try to imitate it is a form of homage. It is obviously a form of praise. Nobody "steals" folk culture that is otherwise visible to everyone in its vicinity. This article is absurd.
55
“Cultural appropriation” is one of those glaring examples of how far left cultural Marxism has parted ways with common sense. If the progressive cultural police has certified some people as “oppressed group”, then special protections apply. Some dispensation might be given if the cultural police awards intersectional points: Carolina Herrera gets points for being Latina, but some have to be deducted because the clothes are sold by a Spanish company (colonialism deduction). Additional points might be awarded if Herrera would have a darker complexion (if she could be declared “woman of color” like ACO). The exact hue of skin that qualifies for “of color” is a closely guarded secret of the cultural police. Are we sure we want to live in a world organized like this ? Isn’t it time to say enough ?
66
@Gimme A. Break - Brilliant! I love the bit about intersectionality. I plan to appropriate that.
5
@Gimme A. Break
AOC said on Meet the Press that although she is descended from Africans, American Indians and Spaniards (Europeans), she cannot classify herself as black or Native. That would leave European only, making her white. I will note that "of color" is not a race.
2
@Gimme A. Break
"Carolina Herrera gets points for being Latina, but some have to be deducted because the clothes are sold by a Spanish company (colonialism deduction)."
Your intersectional point system is a board game waiting to happen. We'll call it the new Game of Life.
2
Decoration and design has crossed cultures from the earliest records of trade. Of course, those peoples who colonized others stole their designs, but cross cultural influence hasn’t always, and isn’t always, about domination. Influence happens.
33
I understand the sensitivity around the idea of cultural appropriation - you came, you took the idea, but you didn't rewards or include us in any way - but where is the proof that the idea originated with people it was copied from. Look at language, which has been copied, incorporated and modified since we started speaking. Who does English belong to?
26
Slow news day, I suppose.
The fact that we have a new name for something (cultural appropriation) does not mean we have discovered a new sin.
I think if Herrera had taken these designs and foisted their clothes on the community of Tenango de Doria in Hidalgo at designer prices, then there might be a reason to complain.
But the people who buy Herrera's clothes would not be caught dead in anything as 'authentic' as that produced by a local craftsperson.
42
Suppose one Mexican person copies or produces a variant of some other Mexican person's design. Presumably that is not being objected to.
But then why am I not allowed to do it? Because Mexican culture is not "my" culture? But who has the authority to determine what "my" culture is, or to draw the boundary lines on what is or is not included in my culture?
35
I love what I saw in this article
I believe everyone should take a deep breath and put things in perspective
The collection has accomplished what the designer stated. Brought to the world the various talent of other cultures.
I for one will now go and shop this collection it’s very beautiful and should be admired without petty grievances
Thank you for bringing this to my attention!!
Ridiculous!
34
America is destroying its own democracy because it feels guilty at having appropriated it from the Greeks without remuneration. Trump is a culturally sensitive genius of a politician and human. He would never appropriate things in this manner. That is why he has his own brand...TRUMP. He never wanted to be insensitive to other people's proprietary intellectual & cultural developments. Who knew we were in such a golden age of awareness!
10
Cultural intellectual property? This is certainly a new and not very well thought out concept. Is it now cultural appropriation for non-Mexicans to own Mexican restaurants. How about non-French people making and selling crepes? Unless something is copyrighted, use of it is not theft.
30
Can’t people read anymore? This is not about wearing anything—saris or jeans or ponchos.
It’s also not about being inspired.
It’s about theft: a designer (rich, armed with lawyers and the machine of capitalism) sells a community’s design as her own. It is counterfeiting. It is a knock-off. It is illegal.
But the power imbalance does not favor the communal property of things —nor the NYT’s readers’ desire to imagine themselves picking up items for a resort collection (Sorry, I just threw up a little bit in my mouth).
Venezuelans of NY, Spanish of the lost empire, read up on your consumerist fans: they’ll buy anything you knock off from people they kind of look down upon because the didn’t get a lawyer for their property rights.
9
@reader: this is *not* theft. It is not even copyright infringement - clothing is specifically excluded from copyright law.
Is this insensitive? Possibly. But, for goodness sake... should I be “offended” that people of Chinese descent are wearing Western-style clothes? Where does this stop? Let’s save our passion for real existential threats, like climate change, or the fact that we need to reconcile ourselves with God.
37
@Andrew
I totally think westerners should start getting offended when people from other cultures wear our clothes. Cultural appropriation cuts both ways. Oh what fun this will be...
3
@Reader- your argument might be credible, except that these techniques, designs and even the color schemes are not original or unique to that region in Mexico. In fact, like every other form of "cultural appropriation," they came from someplace else before they were integrated into the current ethnocultural identity there.
So who has really stolen from whom, if anything has really been stolen at all? Besides, Ms. Herrera is a native Venezuelan, so this is indeed her cultural heritage. Did she steal it from herself?
"...the NYT’s readers’ desire to imagine themselves picking up items for a resort collection (Sorry, I just threw up a little bit in my mouth). "
That's just patronizing and discredits your argument.
6
As a non-Mexican, If I make tacos for dinner tonight am I appropriating Mexican culture?
41
Well, guess Van Gogh's sunflower & other Japan-inspired paintings need to be burned. Cultural appropriation.
33
@Missing the big story
It will be sad to see the burning of all of Van Gogh's imitations of Japanese art. But I guess that's what he deserves. He should have known better. Imitation isn't the sincerest form of flattery in our 'enlightened' era.
1
With this point of view, I sure hope the Mexican government assures us there aren't any Mexican musicians rapping, playing jazz or
the music of Leonard Bernstein etc etc etc...
37
In my reading of this it appears that a Spanish Co,.Puig owns Carolina Herrera and its creative designer is Wes Gordon. Ms. Herrera seems to be out of the picture other than in the use of her name as a much respected fashion label. Mr.Gordon once had his own label, had a few just fair reviews and closed shop. He was then hired to be the designer at CH.
Perhaps the best he can do is copy other designs.
1
Here we go again! This is a recurring theme of the privileged who think that "borrowing" from indigenous cultures is equal to paying homage, respect, and XXX Many of you label cultural appropriation as PC. It's actually a real problem in Mexico when poor people living in remote areas have no voice to protect what belongs to them. People living and creating in indigenous villages for thousands of years don't know about PC. They do know that working the cloth takes months. They learned it from their grandmothers and the designs include sacred symbols that have cultural, spiritual and social meaning. There is no context for the designs that haven been lifted and repurposed for the ultra-rich. There is no compensation to villages whose designs have been stolen. These designs are unique. Unlike music or architecture that builds upon what came before. It is different. These are designs copied verbatim. You get thrown out of college for that! Remember? Yes, the CH designs are beautiful - but because the original designs are beautiful. Let's get it right. Let's collaborate, not steal. Let's employ at a fair wage. Let's justly compensate. This is not about liberal or conservative. This is about doing what is right in the world. I've been living part-time in Oaxaca and working with indigenous artisans for years. Their lives are humble, they are generous, and they are concerned about loss of culture because clothing here is identity. We can help, not hinder the cause.
42
“Stolen”... no, this is not theft - they still have their designs... in fact it is not even copyright infringement, since clothing is specifically excluded from copyright law.
22
@Oaxaca Cultural Navigator LLC
A voice of reason in the wilderness of opinion-babble.
6
@Andrew
clothing designs--that would be the cut and construction. But graphic designs--such as the flower motifs or a particular combination of colors in a certain pattern--such as the stripe can be copyrighted.
10
"But since most fashion designs don’t enjoy intellectual property protections, there’s not much recourse for a wronged party other than naming and shaming." Enough said. Since no laws were broken, designers can take inspiration from whatever they like. If you don't like it, don't buy it. As for me, I would happily buy the clothing shown.
34
@Kay WhiteAmen to you Kay White! This is akin to all the African-American musicians who want to stop White folk from playing the blues because it's not "their" music. Deliver me from these "types".
20
@Kay White good for you. Watch out, it's a steep price tag for a label. Would you happily buy an Otomi shawl or dress for a fraction of the cost? I would happily buy, too, if I could afford it, IF there was attribution giving to the source at the village level of the "inspiration" and a hang tag that told a story about the maker. This is what responsible fashion needs to attend to.
I scrolled through the collection today on another site and thought it was beautiful and clearly inspired by Latin America, specifically Mexico. I immediately thought of the markets where artisans sell their embroidery and how they would be astounded at the cost of each article in the CH collection. I also thought of how tourists will haggle over a five-dollar hand-embroidered item. I suspect there will be no comparable haggling at a CH boutique.
Clearly, the CH team appropriated styles of different cultures for this collection. I don't think there is an argument about that. Can the appropriation also be an homage? Yes. Can an appropriation also be respectful? In this case, yes. Dolce, Gucci, and Prada - not so much. So do they get a pass? Let's ask the Mexican artisans. I'll check back for their answer.
In the meantime, I will celebrate that this well-known brand is shooting a very tasteful middle finger at our Racist-in-Chief. Right-minded people mourn the loss of civility and humanity at the border on a daily basis. This CH collection is perhaps a statement that there is beauty beyond our literal and figurative border wall and a rebuke of the ugly man, and his sordid group of enablers, who insists that there is not.
33
Me, my, mine....... me, me, me.......mine!
That’s the world right now.
How about the Mexican minister get over herself a bit? Capitalize on this, open up your doors, invite Carolina Herrera to come admire Mexico some more. How about they talk about real problems instead of who owns 500 year old designs. They should have some cachapas from Venuezuela, and some cafe from Colombia and enjoy the European, Latin, etc influences around them and talk about real things...like the mess in Venezuela and Mexico.
56
Years go there was a record album released by Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie. It was a concert album. On one of the tracks Pete told a story about once talking to his old friend Woody Guthrie and asking about the lyrics to one of his songs. Woody replied to Pete, "Oh, he just stole from me. I steal from everybody". Very little of what we see is truly original. Most of what we see is built upon something that came before.
41
Cultural appropriation. What an idiotic concept. This is what people who have too much time on their hands complain about.
72
@JamesP
Or my husband likes to say, "if that's your biggest problem, you don't have much to worry about."
3
All art is appropriation. Get over it.
102
fationista fascists. they are bent out of shape that it's a company from spain. it is not a patent, trademark, or copyright viloation.
mexico doesnt seem to be concerned about music, or food, which is so much more influential
17
@steve talbert
Funny thing is Mexico appears to make no attempt to recognize intellectual property rights. Bootleg CDs sold openly. Attitude is : Oh should poor people have to pay royalties to the artist and producers??
2
Cultural appropriation? Hahaha! If my reading of history is correct, my Mexican Indians ancestors usually went topless and wore loincloths.
24
Should Levi & Strauss sue jean wearers, sellers, and manufacturers around the world? How about baseball caps? t shirts? NYPD Caps? sneakers?
30
One more thing. Theses outfits are GORGEOUS! You mean I am not allowed to wear them because I have to be afraid someone is going to be offended? GTFOH!!!
EVERY ONE take a DEEP Breath!
38
The assertion that a "culture" ever owns anything is beyond dumb. That anyone takes this kvatch seriously is astonishing.
36
This is what you get when political correctness goes unchecked. Silly ideas making headlines. SMH.
18
Memo to all fashion, style and generic PC police: no more straightened hair. No more tight permanents, no more dyed blond hair, no more "cat-eye" extreme eyeliner. All tattoos must be approved by a special culture committee as well as all embroidered, woven and beaded garments and accessories. Uniforms appropriate to a wearer's ethnic origins shall be mandatory at all public and official gatherings.
Let us get real please!
25
@Dan
Back to wearing the traditional dress of our ancestors, the clothing they stopped wearing when they could afford to make or buy American fashions.
1
@Dan- I better get used to wearing hose, a frock coat and a high collar.
2
I'm a Liberal, but this "cultural appropriation" furor is stupid and harmful. I guess no more St Patrick's Day, no more Cinco de Mayo. No more Christmas trees (mustn't offend the Druids.)
75
@kat
To be fair, there is no longer anything cultural about St Patrick's Day or Cinco de Mayo, they are now mere excuses for drinking to excess.
3
In other words, a shakedown. The entire "cultural appropriation as sin" concept is absurd. Only Scots can produce plaids, only Americans can play jazz, only Japanese can serve sushi, really?
60
Frida Khalo ruled "cultural appropriation". She practocally defnies it. Now the world appropriates Frida Khalo's culture. Ridiculous. Stop, people. CH created beautiful work. If she wants to contribute financially to a determined cause or community, it's her decision. Why people love judging and criticizing others is beyond me.
30
Aye Dios....I am a gringa living in Mexico..24 years. We wear these designs deliberately because they are lovely and reflect the country we live in. Should I wear shabby jeans because I was not born here. Please with the politically correct. Mexico has a new president who wants to go back to Emiliano Zapata and take all Mexican progress and culture with him.
The minister's comments reflect AMLO's outlook.
32
@Kate Vallarta
Bingo!
2
Should Dizzy Gillespie have paid someone in Cuba and Africa for appropriating "Afro Cuban" rhythms in his music? don't think so.
Should an American architect pay someone in Sweden for appropriating that style of architecture in an American building? don't think so.
Should Boston pay someone in Europe because its city hall is in "brutalist" style?
If your white girlfriend decides to have her hair styled like an Afro, does she owe someone in Africa?
These charges of appropriation are spot on - but appropriation happens all the time in every type of creation. Are creators therefore thieves, and if so, exactly who is compensated?
Did Bartok feel obligated to compensate someone for appropriating folk songs as the basis for his compositions?
29
Fashion is the poor step-child of art. Of late, the conflation of the two, has helped the former and degraded the latter. Of course the fashionistas copy. They are meagre in imagination and bursting with greed. Their spectacles (runway shows) are exercises in narcissistic excess...preening celebrities, pouting mannequins, ridiculous compositions. Personally, I wish the whole couture industry would disappear and we could all just shop at TJ Max and may the best body win.
8
@Jemenfou
As a former reporter for Fairchild Publications (including WWD, DNR, and Men's Wear, but don't hold that against me, please )- I could not agree more. There may, in deed, have been one or two original ideas somewhere in the prehistoric caves in the south of France, or the plains of Africa, but other than (or starting with) those rare, original few- the rule for all fashion has always been and will always be thus: "Don't hide your eyes, plagiarize."
13
Alejandra Frausto, the Cultural Minister of México, has some explaining to do, parading around as she does in European traditional garments. Is she mocking European culture, or merely stealing it?
60
“Some of my best friends are Mexican artisans” - Carolina Herrera
2
If you took Minnie Mouse and made her your "own" design, there would be no question about theft. These are no different, except that the country they come from is seen as exploitable! Theft is theft!
2
Will Winton Marsalis, Seiji Ozawa, and YoYo Ma stop appropriating Teutonic Lutheran Heritage?
29
Homage: hire local craftspeople to work on the design, embroidery, Color palette, fabric, etc. Name them, pay them. Acknowledge their history and traditions in the designs. Celebrate their authenticity and their inspiration. Talk about them specifically.
Theft: go to glorious remote locations. Photograph, sketch and buy local art and crafts from the nameless, faceless locals. Spirit them home to your ivy tower atelier. Create your mood boards, your color boards, your textile boards, your borrowed boards. Then launch to the world “your” new collection that pays homage to the nameless, faceless appropriated culture.
17
Sorry, but this is beyond ridiculous. No one owns his or her culture. If I eat corn, am I wrongfully appropriating Native American culture? If I eat collard greens, am I wrongfully appropriating southern culture? If I wear shorts am I wrongfully appropriating Bermudian culture? The beauty of human progress is that we take what works or what is pleasing and we use it, and maybe we put our own spin on it, trying to improve upon it or make it reflect a little of ourselves.
We are not talking about things that are patentable or which could be copyrighted.
I am an old fashioned liberal, and I am imploring the so-called “progressives” to stop worrying about these manufactured transgressions. If you rant and cry and try to destroy people for this kind of activity, you run the risk of the majority dismissing you when you rant and cry and try to destroy people for real transgressions that truly endanger the health, safety and welfare of our planet.
47
"...or may exploit the work of others..."
I wonder how many of those people getting in high social-media dudgeon about cultural appropriation are wearing clothes made by workers someplace they know not where, getting paid they know not what, under working conditions, and lacking worker protections, the internet hordes haven't bothered to look into?
Maybe there should be more NYT articles about where all our cheap clothes come from. Let's talk then about "exploiting the work of others" in fashion.
Yet another example of identity politics crowding out actual leftwing politics.
27
I am an illustrator and graphic artist. Years ago, I and a professional artist colleague attended an international conference of IFRRO. There was a presentation about IP and ethical issues regarding white Australian graphic artists creating commissioned artwork in the style of traditional Aboriginal designs. Aboriginal artists were offended and accused the white graphic artists of cultural appropriation. No specific art/designs had been copied exactly, so the issue wasn’t copyright infringement. The issue was deemed to be plagiarism by white artists of traditional Aboriginal designs.
My colleague and I were perplexed about the accusations. The client had hired the [white] professional graphic artists and told them what graphic style they wanted. The client had not hired the Aboriginal fine artists (who had no professional experience in graphic design). Clients commission work from graphic artists and ask for all sorts of design styles; this is standard professional practice. It’s not as if clients who want a Japanese design aesthetic necessarily hire Japanese designers, nor are they obliged to.
My colleague and I are 3rd generation Americans; I am Ashkenazi Jewish, he is of German descent. As artists, am I relegated to creating only Judaica or “Jewish” art, and is he relegated to creating only German-style art? If a client asks me to create a graphic in a Mexican Tenango de Doria aesthetic, would I be accused of “cultural appropriation” if I did it, or must I turn job down?
22
There goes modernism - Picasso and Gauguin adopted and adapted African motifs.
Whoops, Russian formalism, too - bye, be, Kandinsky, who was influenced by European modernism, and Malevitch (those squares are suspiciously cubist), not to mention Mayakovsky ("A Cloud in Trousers" - surrealist) and Pound (the Cathay poems). I'd better ditch that kimono-style bathrobe, not to mention my rope sandals (Native American). Those prayer beads belong in Tibet, not Westchester county.
Throw out the curry! Send the spaghetti back to China! Return the Mex in TexMex to Guadalajara! Boycott French restaurants owned by Scandinavians. How dare they!
Influence and inspiration are the heart of art and the dynamic that sparks cultural evolution. Evolve or die.
Or go to graduate school in the humanities, I guess. This is where the "cultural appropriation" theme originated. Too much confused, self-righteous politics; not enough humanities. Yet incontrovertible proof that you can be brain dead, yet tweet.
The Mexican cultural minister should have known better. I only wish that I had the resources to purchase one of Ms. Herrera's beautiful dresses. The one pictured in the article is drop-dead gorgeous.
30
I understand that NYT must frame articles for a US audience, but there are some important points raised in Mexico's media that are missing here. Might help some of the readers understand why the government felt it had to get involved.
1. These designs are almost EXACT copies of the textiles these communities create. The white dress is especially astoundingly unoriginal. NYT could include photos for comparison.
2. Some of these textiles represent the peoples' cosmovision, are intensely personal and spiritual, and have no business on Fifth Ave.
3. Tourism is a source of extreme pride for the Mexican government and many of its people. These textiles and local art help make it the sixth most visited country in the world and constitute millions of people's livelihoods.
4. Supposedly there are legal strategies and proceedings under way. The government would not invest in expensive proceedings if the infringement weren't so blatant.
16
@anonymous,
But couldn't the Mexican artisans now generally copy the CH silhouettes and profit handsomely? That would contribute to their livelihood. And what about Mexican artisans using a Celtic motif that is an exact copy? Or a European artist copying an American cowboy hat? Many intensely personal, spiritual and symbolic items are copied the world over precisely for their beauty and meaning.
3
@anonymous - agreed. NYTimes, if you are listening, it would have helped to put this into context by showing photos of the textiles that these clothes are based on next to them, along with information about the communities that they originate from and the meanings and symbolism of the designs. As for Mexican artisans now copying CH's designs - there is little original in this collection. There are Mexican designers that work with indigenous textiles and communities to make products that appeal to international tourists as well as middle- and upper-class Mexicans. Many do a better job (in my opinion) than CH's designs here, although I admit they are lovely. Some have a better business model than others in terms of benefiting the artisans. There are other models for the way that this could have been done, and I hope the fashion industry learns from this. If you like it and have the money, then buy these - but I would be curious how many people who would buy these would feel comfortable wearing them in the communities where the designs originate... and then go haggle with the women wearing huipiles with the same design for their wares in the market...
1
@anonymous
"almost EXACT copies"??? I've visited Mexico several times, and purchased embroidered cotton shifts and folk birds painted on bark. I never saw anything in Mexico that even comes close to the CH gown.
4
So, I am writing again in response to my comments etc.
If you want to understand cultural appropriation and plagiarism... and yes, taking blue's influence from African tribes and NOT acknowledging is artist-intellectual perfidy... go to the source.
Here is a different issues, Mexican ethnic communities are alive and responding.
I didn't understand it till in Baluchistan, I met tribal women who do special embroidery techniques , showed me samplers dating back easy 400-500 years old (each family has their own specific technique). I showed them pictures of a Valentino show where it was used in clothing. The women asked, do they make a lot of many with these clothes? I said, tons. The way all those forty or so women looked back at me with hunger, sadness and betrayal... that told me what none of folks here can convey.
Then in Morocco, mountain women make carpets, its almost always women that make carpets... they support homes with their work-- this has been going on for centuries. When I went buying carpets (Zaer, Beni ourain) I made a condition, no imitation carpets (similar but cheaper), only those made by the women.
I paid more but I was not going to feed into this appropriation of their work and talent maintained for hundreds of years without them getting a share.
Anyone here who doesn't belong to a culture, who has been marginalized, or worse, has seen a colonial past-- I (personally) don't think you can understand their concerns, unless you walk in their shoes.
15
@Ash.
I am from India, a culture that has experienced a highly exploitative colonial past. Just one example - the British destroyed India's flourishing and millennia-old textile trade by shipping raw cotton to Manchester where it was turned into factory-made clothes, which were then sold in India at prices with which weavers could not compete. Result: millions of weavers died. Nevertheless, I am thrilled not only that India's textile industry has made a big recovery but also that Indian and Western designers borrow from each other, that Indian clothing, food, designs and films are popularized and imitated in other countries. This is the way a culture becomes an equal player on the global stage.
9
@Ash. - "...and yes, taking blue's influence from African tribes and NOT acknowledging is artist-intellectual perfidy."
Actually, most jazz harmony up until beebop and dodecaphonic technique came from Debussy, who came up with his ideas about chromaticism and atonality almost entirely on his own.
And he was not upset that this "borrowing" took place, and said so in print. Rather he was fascinated by it, and what jazzers were doing with it.
5
Instead of him criticizing CH collections, why not promote indigenous patterns and techniques. Why not work with her instead of calling her out like that? I am not sure if he, the Minister, has done so, but knowing a little bit about Mexico, indigenous people are often left behind. Just recently we saw a beautiful Mexican woman gaining so much attention because she comes from that culture. It is so bizarre for Mexicans to see indigenous people on TV nonetheless in a movie of that categories. That is why you only see them playing the part of the service lady in soap operas (very famous in Mexico). What it would be nice is to see women, indigenous women from Latin America, model all her clothes. I think it is a great opportunity for CH to do something for them.
3
“The opportunity lies in the chance to work with the people of these communities,” Mr. Kolb said — rather than simply borrow from them.
Exactly. The same goes for street style, and the fashion industry appropriation of Hip Hop. Dapper Dan working with Gucci is one road - And, whether you like him or not, Kanye West founding Yeezy is another.
I understand that some people, like the writer of this article, belong to a culture that vilifies cultural appropriation.
However, that is not my culture. So heaven forbid that I should appropriate that idea from them. Now I will go back to enjoying J. S. Bach's Italian Concerto, Ouvertüre nach Französischer Art, French Suites, and concerti grossi.
9
I don‘t get the exploitation point, sorry.
When we are getting too narrow-minded, freedom abd culture will get history. What if we forbid to sing songs from the past? This is just how inspiration works!
4
The U.S. Founders got this right, in my opinion:
[The Congress shall have power] “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”
Note "limited times." In other words, the government protects creators for a certain period of time (so they can profit from their work), but the creators pay for this privilege by eventually having their creations put into the public domain. This is the way that patents and copyrights have always worked.
3
But, but, but... I am guilty of buying Made-in-Mexico clothing embroidered with these very designs while in Mexico, for my grandchildren. If they wear it in Canada, are they now guilty of cultural appropriation? I’ve given up reading all news about Trump and his supporters to avoid complete disenchantment with humanity. Looks like I’ll have to give up the fashion pages too.
12
@Macchiato NO. If you purchased them from the actual indigenous artisans that is fine. If you steal hundreds of years worth of cultural embedded designs then there is a problem. In fact I encourage people to buy indigenous designs, it helps out because most of these artisans are poor.
1
There are copyright laws protecting the reproduction of works of art/unique designs - including their reproduction on fabric/clothing. However the designs need to have been registered to be protected. If the Mexican government feels that there are unique designs to be protected they should register them. If not, they're fair game. Also many of these floral designs are also very similar to a number of Central European (Polish/Hungarian) patterns, so maybe not that unique.
6
@faith
Ummm.... Copyright law in Mexico doesn't work like that.
Governments don't register the copyright of works created by private citizens.
@L -but they could. Just because we don't do it that way in the US doesn't mean it couldn't be done there. The fact is that, after all, they do make the law in that country.
This would have been completely under the radar, even two years ago.
We've changed, because we just... have to do something... with all this outrage. So, it finds expression in things like this.
Offensive costumes, intended to mock people's heritage? That's always been bad; now it's a cause for public shaming and ostracizing.
Costumes that depict a cultural heritage, worn for fun and role-playing? Didn't used to be a big deal; now it's a cause for public shaming and ostracizing.
Wearing normal clothes that reflect a cultural heritage other than one's own? Well, of course there's nothing wrong with that... oh wait, no. That gets public shaming and ostracizing.
Who is this helping?
12
My native Mexican & Italian grandmothers would have found this controversy silly. They emigrated to escape the Mexican Revolution & World War 2, and did farm & factory labor starting in childhood. That gives one a wider perspective, to say the least.
As for native people who need to be compensated, the present generation is probably wearing Nike & designer jean knock offs.
OTOH, it would be amusing to see countries whose designs Ms. Herrera used copy her dress designs and flood the market with them. I’d buy the knock offs!
8
Problem. Human beings all over the planet have developed various designs, colour combinations, textile techniques...If fashion designers choose cultures with strong textile traditions, there's a big risk...
So, should a fashion designer restrict him/herself to the influence of only their own ancestral culture ? Good luck finding a culture devoid of the influence of any other culture....And, these days, any designer with ancestors from only one culture.
Mr. Kolb's suggestions are good ones...
3
It's plagiarism and it's blatant. On the other hand, this has been going on for centuries. Perhaps some of the response is to how our country has been so ruthlessly cruel to Mexico lately. Maybe?
1
@Daisy22 Plagiarism fails to acknowledgethsource. Here, the source is acknowledged.
1
Unless the style is protected by law (such as in Panama where the native art of the “molas” IS protected) the natives of Mexico probably have no rights to remuneration or protection of a not patented design. However, a recognition of the contribution of native designs should/could be recognized by a donation to furthering the native talent and creativity. Perhaps by scholarships to art/design schools in their native provinces/states. Panama has an organization “ProArtesanas” which helps women in deep rural areas to use their talent as embroiderers of native and everyday clothes to make beautiful designs for sheets, napkins, baby dresses etc. These are sold in the capital to help each woman out of poverty, isolation and male mistreatment. This type of program always needs help. Perhaps this could be done in Mexico, Africa or wherever.
By the way, Carolina Herrera’s firm got in trouble a few years back designing a handbag with the striking design of the Panamanian flag. I BELIEVE Panama protested. Not sure where it ended.
Shall this begs the thought/question : what are we to do with Mexican food not cooked by Mexican chefs ...etc etc and on and on. So many variations on this theme .
10
"Just because that signature does not belong to a particular designer doesn’t mean it’s fair game."
Well, it kinda does. Those specific designs, color schemes and techniques don't belong to anybody. Even if they make up a part of a regional cultural aesthetic, they are not entirely unique. Does that mean that no artist, anywhere, should ever use them unless they're Mexican? Or can an American artist use them if they're of Central American descent? After all, Ms. Herera is native Venezualan. Isn't that close enough? Or does her fashion house have to be located and doing business in Mexico City, thereby enriching the locals economy and employing local people? And then it won't be offensive because money is changing hands?
The same argument is now being fought over plaited and braided hairstyles from native cultures in Central Africa, allegedly appropriated by everyone else. Yet very similar plaited and braided hairstyles are not unique to those cultures, going back as far as documentary records show to Babylonia and even pre-historic Scandinavia in the North. Should modern-day native Africans apologize to the Babylonians for cultural appropriation? Should the dynastic Egyptians for borrowing from the Babylonians because they obviously did?
You can get very authentic pizza and dim sum in Mexico City, as you can everywhere. Should the cooks apologize too?
9
A Latin American country calling out a Latin American designer for cultural appropriation. How insular can we get? Both Venezuela and Mexico have mixed native and European populations and likely share many similar cultural traits. How far across their border will Mexico sanction cultural appropriation? Will Tex-Mex food become a cultural appropriation? Can I no longer eat at the taco truck in my neighborhood if it's run by Guatemalans or 3rd generation, Mexican immigrants?
10
And only original cowboys and farmer can wear denim jeans. Verboten to the rest of us. And only Native Americans can wear moccasins without paying a royalty.
11
@Suburban Cowboy Not true. Miners can also wear jeans. Especially gold miners
More from the outrage culture. "Cultural appropriation" is a mischaracterization. I can't think of a situation where some piece of clothing worn or adopted from another culture is insulting. Sorry, all art is derivative, and, alas, so is fashion. These beautiful patterns are being propagated, not stolen. One wonders what Mexico, a country perpetually on the brink of civil war, has done to help bolster its indigenous forbears. Probably nothing. The alternative of the appropriationistas offer is total segregation of everything which not only is anti-diversity, it is downright isolationist and silly. That is something a lot of people fought against for a long time.
9
This is ridiculous. Chanel was inspired by the striped jerseys French fishermen wore and she promptly made it to a casual basic for women. Later Jean-Paul Gauthier made his own version of it ... inspiration and interpretation have always been part of fashion. When I was a teenager end of sixties early seventies we wore embroidered shirts inspired by Eastern European folklore. Those, by the way, are in again.
I think it’s a compliment.
258
@MALINA To my knowledge, though, French fishermen were never an oppressed indigenous people.
13
@gmdlt so cultural appropriation is only about "oppressed indigenous people" (and who determines that status)? while perhaps not oppressed, french fishermen at the time in question were likely a poorer class of people who didn't benefit monetarily from designer clothing based on something they wore. anyway, the whole cultural appropriation discussion is a load of first world nonsense... bordering on fascist lunacy. And, I say this as someone coming from an immigrant community that is much appropriated from in the US and worldwide. I've got real worries, though...
45
@gmdlt If they are oppressed,then the problem has to be solved by the Mexican goverment, surely not by CH !
35
This article caught my attention so I had to visit the Carolina Herrera website and see it for myself. The collection is gorgeous. One would think that the cultural minister of Mexico would be honored by the supposed appropriation. I don't believe it was meant as an insult and I'm not sure why it was taken as such. As Oscar Wilde once said, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
12
And what if a Mexican governmental or cultural organization hires a foreign architect to design one of its buildings? Is it appropriation if that person (French, Swedish, or African, for example) creates a building that reflects their signature (national) style? You can't copyright or own a cultural style, even if it seems unfair when celebrities or companies make money from it.
14
This all could have been avoided had CH hired people from the community from which the designs originated and payed them a living wage to do the embroidery work. Obviously, this would add substantial cost to the cost of manufacturing, but it would add authenticity and save the backlash.
11
@Jessica
Is the issue who CH paid to sew and embroider her clothes? If the atelier hired Mexican artisans to sew and embroider her clothes, would that make the clothes "authentic" and acceptable, instead of having her regular employees create the embroidery (whatever their ethnic heritage may be)?
Or is the issue that the embroidery motifs are Mexican and Carolina Herrera is not Mexican? Should Herrera, as a designer and creative professional, be limited to creating clothes only within the Venezuelan aesthetic because that is her personal heritage? Is designing anything else from what she finds creative inspiration unethical?
Isn't this all ridiculous?
9
@L- the thing of it is that the "Venezuelan aesthetic" actually includes these designs, color schemes and techniques. So that's not any kind of appropriation either.
And the other things it that at it is most likely that Ms. Herrera did in fact employ Hispanic and Latin peoples in her operation to produce these clothes, and at many levels. Some of them probably even sent money home to family in Mexico.
Britain has announced that the use of calculus is cultural appropriation when performed outside of the British Isles. (Some exceptions will be made for Germany.)
Greece has demanded that all democracies revert to monarchies or submit to tyrants. (Thank-you America, for being proactive.)
The Arabs have given the rest of the world three days to change their numerals.
India has declared the zero to be off limits outside of the sub-continent. (Including using it in calculus.)
114
@Geo
Good points. Except the so-called Arabic numerals were invented in India and transported by Arabs to Europe. Many now refer to them as "Indo-Arabic numerals."
4
The concept of Cultural Appropriation, and the fear of being accused of such, seems like a slippery slope to segregation.
Maybe, to avoid even being subconsciously influenced by anything that was not created exclusively by white anglos Herrera and other white creatives should avoid international travel altogether? Perhaps never venture out of "white" neighborhoods, or attend non-all-white student body art schools lest they be accidentally inspired by some "non-white" aesthetic? Ultimately never spend anytime around anyone of a different race? Should clothing stores and art fairs start enforcing race-based purchasing criteria?
The notion of cultural appropriation is at once quixotically intractable and divisively toxic. People of different races and nationalities come together when they realize we have more in common than we have differences. Shared appreciation of food, fashion and design aesthetics used to be celebrated, now it is shamed.
63
I am struggling with this. I saw some of the collection and thought it was beautiful, and realized it was inspired by ethnic designs from somewhere. Unless they are photocopying the designs and using them exactly I cannot see what the problem is. There is no one person being copied, it is more complicated. They cannot go to the source and involved them in the creation. There is the process of the design, the creation, embroidery, colors etc. It is drawn upon, inspired by, but is still unique. It is not as if they can go to the culture and have the designs made there, they cannot pay licensing, these are historical. What about the artists who go and paint at Giverny and produce a likeness. It will not be a Monet but may look very similar. I think this has all gone too far and runs the risk of stifling creativity across the arts completely.
41
@MK: Even if it were to be exact, there are indigenous designs that date back thousands of years in any culture that's been around that long. These have been used almost since their creation as inspiration for later reworking, and around the world.
The whole idea of cultural appropriation when applied to designs that have been around much longer than any of us have been alive, and which are the sole property of no one, is suspect. All the more so when nothing even hinting at stereotyping or disrespect is in the mix.
17
Beautiful collection - congrats! If only there were a men's line...
12
I'm getting terrified to speak, write, or dress. There was an article in the NYT yesterday that featured a picture of Gloria Steinem and all I could think was, she's wearing a Native American vest. That's cultural appropriation (unless it was a gift). Then I was in a meeting this morning and a white woman was wearing hoop earrings, and I thought, uh-oh, cultural appropriation. (Hoop earrings used to be my go-to accessory but I got rid of them all for fear of offending.) The ostensible purpose of all this was to raise awareness of marginalized and disenfranchised cultures that had historically been exploited, but all it has done is create a callout culture and frightening, punishing ideology of Salem proportions.
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@Anonymous
Yeah, this should not at all be conflated with the actually racist examples from Gucci listed here. Herrera is also Latina, so it's not as if it's a white person profiting off Latin culture while Latino/a's are excluded from the industry. Is the issue that they snapped a picture of someone else's exact pattern and copied it without compensating the inventor? As long as the patterns were a bit different I don't see any issue here. Art may as well be dead if we can't be inspired by anything anymore.
28
@Anonymous
I agree 100%. Like so many other things, something that started out as a valid topic that applied to only a small number of issues, has expanded into the surreal and absurd. I am afraid to braid my daughter’s hair !
42
It’s the ‘French Terror’ all over again.
I’m a designer and creative person and uh-oh - white male AND cisgender. Obviously I’m one of the bad guys. However, as such, I do find it so tiresome to hear of one of my peers’ trips that led to some design inspiration. “The colors are taken from the sunsets of Havana” - yuck. How boring.
I think this article did one of the best jobs I’ve seen of calmly expressing the valid concerns around cultural appropriation; terrifying though it may be. I suppose if we just stick to our eurocentrism we’ll be safe. Ha.
As long as you’re not making money off it and ‘looting’ the culture of someone else I say wear those hoop earrings!
27
I don't how a problem with this homage/appropriation, but it may have been nice to say a portion of the proceeds from the garments will be donated to charities in the respective countries which the homage is honoring.
9
@Peter M Why? Its not copying - it is just an inspiration. Do you feel like making a donation to Indian mathematicians every time you use a zero?
10
@Etymologist
If only! ... I'd find a way to become an Indian mathematician!
1) No idea is original. All knowledge and art stands of the shoulders of people (dead people) who have no say in how the artifacts of their cultural contributions are to be used in the present.
2) Ideas must be translated to products before any income can be made. The translation step - taking a raw creative expression and turning it into a finished, marketable product - is the hardest and most taxing part of any business endeavor. Tons of people have "great" ideas, but very few are seen to fruition.
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@Johnny Traditional Mexican embroidery patterns are not "ideas", they have been making them and selling them for decades. and those are unique to that region those are not universal, go and find it somewhere else then...
6
@Luis
Beauty in all its forms is to be shared, not to be exclusively kept by a certain group.
Why do we gladly applaud a well known Parisian chef cooking and serving Mexican tamales, but frown upon an iconic fashion house using Mexican inspired designs?
What is the actual damage suffered by the Mexican tamale makers or the Mexican embroiderers?
28
@Luis
Did "traditional Mexican embroidery" actually germinate strictly from within Mexico? Did Mexicans appropriate some of "their" embroidery from other cultures, and therefore were guilty of appropriation themselves?
If I write a reggae song, do I owe something to someone in Jamaica?
5
Derrida has taught us that all "texts" (any area or entity of our surrounding world) will inevitably bring forth "deconstructions" (offspring) that in turn will fatally produce other byproducts, from which more will emanate, and so on, ad infinitum. Carolina Herrera's images are such inevitable "texts". Claiming that such images are the product of an untoward act is absurd.
17
@Rodrigo Palacios Thank you. We might better aim our analyses and ire at the real oppressors. I won't name them because readers need to figure that out for themselves - and face that almost everyone in America supports out slavemasters. Ask this question: Cui bono? Who profits?
Homage and Love. How can H's work not increase respect and honor and appreciation of the traditional people's work and probably also its $value? Viva Mexico!
I cannot but see the seeds of Trump is spreading around the world and blossoming.
8
This is such a difficult issue - where's the line between homage and theft? When does something become public property versus unspoken trademark? How can artists express what they've seen if everything they see belongs to someone else? Not only is it incredibly difficult to draw these lines, I feel as though to insist upon these distinctions only isolates us, rather than drawing us together in the big, multi-cultural mix I was always taught to honor as one of the best things about being American.
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@Olivia I myself steal from everyone equally. ;)
1
At the very least, this suggests a lack of creativity on Herrera's part. It's the patterns of the textiles that make the bulk of the contributions to these designs.
6
Perhaps the use of cultural, national, and folk designs -- FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROFIT AND RECOGNITION -- should be treated as copyrighted material. One needs to seek permission and pay royalties for their use.
8
none of the designs were protected and they were not copies. they are new creations.
1
@laguna greg Those patterns are unique to that region and to that town in Mexico, if not, then why don't Ms. Herrera go and find inspiration in Nebraska and Ohio instead??
1
@Luis They are not only made in one town. They are designs of the Otomí tribe, and the Otomís are scattered in Central Mexico. But at least trying to pay royalties to some of them would have helped. Now it is too late.
@ Steve talbert The notion that anyone can copy the designs because they are not copyrighted is totally unethical.
Mr. Frausto fumbled a fabulous marketing opportunity when Herrera paid homage to her roots. She honored traditional Latin American clothing and embroidery techniques in her collection. How on earth can this be an insult? All art builds upon past work. All artists are inspired by everything they have seen and heard since birth. Instead of carping about "cultural appropriation," he could have focused a brilliant tourism campaign around the beauty of Mexican folk textiles which have always been inspired by the beauty of South America's flora and fauna. I'd wager Herrera herself would have happily played a role. I am sick to death of our whiny-PC-let's-all-jump-on-the-victim-bandwagon culture—this coming from a knee jerk liberal BTW.
160
@Theresa...Go and honour the beautiful, colourful designs of North Dakota. There is plenty of the world to celebrate, why not?
@Luis
According to your view, no world can be celebrated but the one you were born and grown up in. This seems like a very narrow way to live. Are restaurants now going to need to confine themselves only to one specific cuisine for fear of theft or appropriation?
Somehow we to find a balance that is respectful to all.
20
@Theresa I agree. While Herrera's team could have handled this far more gracefully and graciously, I see this collection more as a paean to the beautiful design elements of various cultures within Mexico than cultural appropriation. It's hard to imagine someone purchasing these clothing items (far out of my budget!) in lieu of an item made by an indigenous craftsperson. Instead, one could imagine someone buying these items and then, struck by the beauty of these embroidered designs, seeking out the 'real' thing. A huipil or a serape might have elements copied in the Herrera line, but the structure of the clothing isn't the same. Otomi embroidery can be found everywhere from cake frosting to cheap knock-offs to Hermès. Clearly Herrera's team should have been more upfront and celebratory of this textile culture, and ideally they would have found a way to incorporate the practitioners of these crafts in their fabrication. But cultural appropriation? I'm a knee jerk liberal, and it's too far for me, too.
12
I don't even know what "cultural appropriation" means in terms of fashion. Should one not wear lace if one is not Irish? Jackets with Nehru collars if not born in India? Jeans made from American denim if – gasp – one wasn't born in the US of A? Searching out the best design and materials from around the globe and sharing them seems a good thing to me.
185
@Susan Didn't denim originate in India :-) How many pairs of jeans would have to be thrown away by non-Indian people.
2
@Susan
Thank you.
Chinoiserie has been fashionable and popular in wallpaper, rugs, fabrics and fashion in Europe and North America for 150 years at least. Not one customer has ever pretended to be Chinese when they put the rug in their living room or wore the kimono. We accepted these beautiful items long ago.
I'm white and Jewish. I have been wearing Mexican "peasant blouses" and Indian block-printed skirts since I was a teenager in the 1970s. I have never, ever once pretended to be Mexican or Indian. Wearing clothes is not cultural appropriation unless the wearer also pretends to be that ethnicity. They're just pretty clothes.
What used to be "hippie clothes" is now offensive cultural appropriation? I think we've gone overboard.
21
Eiffel Tower replication in Las Vegas, tacos in Brooklyn, baseball, apple pies and Chevys in Mexico. Learning to speak Spanish in Tokyo. What is cultural appropriation ?
100
@Suburban Cowboy - Please! Can we talk about pizza?
3
I cant agree with this idea of Cultural Appropriation.
Nobody owns a Cultural style.
If you cant protect the I.P. legally its not yours.
40
@Paul Schejtman
How does a poor indigenous person access the legal system to protect IP?
10
@Roxy The resources of the Mexican government appear to be available here if there were some legal basis for making a claim, which of course there is not.
13
I find that depending on where you come from people have a different understanding and appreciation for what culture means.
The very essence(based on my understanding at least) of culture is that it has forms of (cultural)expression-including style/fashion-created by a group to be used by it to express that which is unique and/or revered by it.
It’s dear to those closest to it and to the rest of us, the ask is that we at the very least respect if not understand it.
Culture always belongs to someone, it wouldn’t be so otherwise would it? You can appreciate someone else’s culture without ‘bastardising’ it.
2
For centuries, if not millennia, artists have taken inspiration and ideas from other cultures and extended them into their own work. If the term "appropriation" extends to cover all of this territory, we'd better post apologies beside all of the Impressionist works that borrow Japanese and African motifs. I suppose much of Matisse should be taken down. Reggae music should be banned for its appropriation of Motown. The blues i-iv-v progression should be banned from rock music, and most Western Medieval music should apologize for its flagrant use of Arab tonalities and harmonies. And, how about catalogs like the Peruvian Connection? All of the hip-hop fashion? I think these clothes look wonderful, and, though they borrow from an indigenous culture, they extend and transform it in ways that culture never would. We're getting to the point where all Old White Guys will be limited to wearing golf outfits, or stand accused of (gasp!) cultural appropriation!
65
@JB What if they're not Scottish?
Maybe we should all just run around naked.
70
@Steve Beck. Ancient Greek athletes performed naked - cultural appropriation, and an insult to my Greek heritage!
12
@Steve Beck
Then you would be accused of appropriating the lifestyle of indigenous peoples.
4
Even then you might be flayed for having copied the culture of one of several isolated Amazonian tribes that actually do live in the nude habitually.
5
A Spanish company exploiting indigenous Mexican culture, when has that ever happened?
26
@AC Herrera is Venezuelan
1
@PHI Carolina Herrera sold her name and her brand to a Spanish company, Puig. But the Otomís and other indigenous people, creators of the art in which this collection is based, have not sold theirs, at least not yet.
@RoseMarieDC- actually, these designs, color schemes and techniques have been in commercial production for 100+ years, and have been sold all over the West during that time. I can cross the border to Ensenada right now and buy examples of both good and poor quality at several shops there. There is a shop here in Seattle I know that sells them too, and I used to know a shop in Paris in the 7eme that sold them as well.
It is not credible to say these things haven't been sold, or have never been commercially promoted.
2
A designer isn't allowed to incorporate a cultural palette and motif into expensive designer clothes that most won't have access to until it filters down into Kmart collections.
How is it acceptable that souvenir shops in every country I've visited sell cultural themed bric-a-brac to tourists? Check the country of origin on that cheap (insultingly stereotyped) sombrero or sarape. It probably wasn't locally crafted. Neither was the cheap plastic gladiator get-up you bought your kid in Rome or the Navajo wedding pot with fired on decals. They are cheap reproductions made in China and sold to tourists by local shop owners who apparently are just fine with trading on their cultural heritage.
The real items are also available (and support local artisans!) but cost as much as those designer duds.
21
Many of these comments unfathomably seem to be missing the point. CH and other designers who appropriate indigenous designs are profiting handsomely while the people who are the source of the original designs may continue to suffer in extreme poverty.
Why don't these designers "pay back" in some fashion the sources of their inspiration from which they "borrowed" ? They could share the wealth from the pile of money they make off the designs instead of shrugging of being shamed for exploitation.
Examples for those who may have difficulty figuring it out include education and community improvement, including clean water and adequate housing.
It's pretty clear to me at any rate.
29
I never understand why they don’t just do that. If they want to pay homage that’s fine. But money talks louder.
6
@Roxy Who in particular do they pay? If these designs have existed for decades or longer, then the current “native” practitioners have just borrowed from their predecessors.
10
@Roxy
The people who were the source of the original designs are dead.
2
So, this about Venezuelan and Spanish capitalists exploiting Native Americans. In exactly what way is this not a very tarnished pot complaining about two dirty kettles?
6
This is ridiculous. Artists of all types get their inspiration from different cultures. What if an African musician decides to perform or compose Opera, is that appropriation as well? We should lay off of this argument and focus on more pressing issues like protecting said indigenous cultures from the effects of climate change.
59
@Anjou Now that I think about it, I have seen some African Americans perform Italian Opera. This deplorable practice must stop.
3
I'm surprised not to see any reference to the Dior 2020 Cruise collection in relationship to how designers try to grapple with appropriation. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/fashion/dior-cruise-marrakech.html
4
Then, by all means, let's attempt to prevent non-US designers from using blue jeans. Or non-French people from using denim.
This is ridiculous; to me the patterns on the lovely long dress look a lot like crewel, which was orginally sourced, I think, from India.
18
@vineyridge
There are a lot of similarities in needle arts, across cultures. However, theses are specifically Mexican designs and patterns.
7
@Sophie- only recently, and not strictly. The techniques, patterns, and even the color schemes are not original to the region, or even the artisans that have used them in years past.
6
Just like the fleur-de-lis is French and tartan is Scottish. So, then, no one but a Frenchman can use the Elysian symbol or a Scot can weave a wool in a tartan pattern ?
3
Is it cultural appropriation for Frida Khalo to use the ideas of surrealism?
Is it cultural appropriation for Frida Khalo to use the ideas of Karl Marx?
17
@Norman
Hear Hear!
3
"...there is obviously a difference between racism (as displayed by Dolce, Gucci — in their blackface turtleneck — and Prada) and appropriation, though they tend to be conflated under the category of Gross Fashion Infringements..."
It seems that Gordon directly and proactively talked about these designs as Mexican in origin, so I'm less inclined to see it as appropriation.
Maybe the Herrera brand should expressly shout-out a one or more Mexican designers or craftspeople or regions, and then give them a percentage of the proceeds of the line?
7
It's cultural appreciation, not appropriation. There is nothing that prohibits the people who think they own these designs that are allegedly being "appropriated" to make their own clothing or toys or tents or whatever they want to make using those designs. They don't have a monopoly on the designs.
I much prefer cultural inclusion. Bo Derek in corn rows was the first time I remember people screaming about cultural appropriation. As long as people know who did it originally, I don't see what the big deal is.
My thoughts turn to Buddy Guy, one of the original (electric) blues men of last century and who is still living and playing concerts. I appreciate that he doesn't care who plays the blues (white people) or who is sitting in the audience (other white people), but cares that the art of the blues survives and is enjoyed by new generations. He has mentored white players. All of this in tribute to Muddy Waters, as he himself has said. Imagine if he were instead angry that white men were playing the blues. The more people that play and appreciate the blues, the more likely that it will survive. The same can be said for indigenous designs and cultural traditions. If they are good, why can't everyone enjoy them?
If I'm wrong, well then, stop using Christmas trees immediately. I'm German-American and they are a German invention. Everyone who puts up a Christmas tree is culturally appropriating a German tradition. Stop it. See how stupid this sounds?
68
@DJKC - And then there's pizza...
2
@DJKC...Go and say you just "created" the Christmas Tree and try to put a tag on it with a couple thousands written down, that is exactly how absurd you would be perceived.
2
uhoh.
then you’d better go after paul simon for ‘graceland’, anyone who wears a kilt if they’re not scottish & the hordes of us devouring sushi, tamales & coq au vin if it’s not your native heritage...
on&on
26
@gogoburns
As I recall, there was a lot of criticism of Paul Simon for the Graceland “cultural appropriation.” It certainly gave a lot of opportunity and publicity to the musicians, however.
2
Wait what should Italy say? Anything "Italian" sells more!
3
I find this insane. No wonder republicans think us democrats insane. I am jewish and don't care who makes and sells bagels. To me multiculturalism means sharing of cultures. The african American woman at my 7-11 wants to braid my hair (I'm caucasian). I view this as a fun opportunity to share-should we be shunned?
88
Like another commenter, I consider myself a liberal. But this silliness over "cultural appropriation" is just absurd. Is every bride in the world "appropriating" from Queen Victoria, who began the tradition of a white wedding gown?
54
This is ludicrous. Artists are influenced by the world, the art of others, history, varied cultures, etc. To claim "cultural appropriation" is ridiculous.
17
Herrera isn’t exactly a French name! I think it is her heritage as well.
8
The mayor of Paris is surnamed Hidalgo, also not so French. So, what is your point Monsieur ?
@Suburban Cowboy- That Ms. Herrera has as much right to her own cultural heritage as anybody.
Oh please, she is celebrating Latin culture. Serape fabric has been made into fashion and home accessories for decades and Latinos have been part of our US heritage for a long long time. It really wasn’t all that long ago the Texas was a part of Mexico in the big scheme of things.
I don’t think celebrating is the same thing as insulting a culture by using chopsticks in a demeaning way, such as Dolce & Gabanna, or Prada using charms that looked like Black Sambo figures.
So having said that, I want to say “How hard is it to do the right thing?” Not sure what a court would do, but paying a percentage of sales to these communities who created the original art that was used for inspiration would be the right thing to do.
3
@Vickie
As nice as the idea of the payment of a percentage of sales sounds at first, one must disagree. Where would one even begin to determine which Mexican embroiderer woman or towns would receive which amount of money, and importantly why the woman next door, or the next town down the road would not receive the same payment?
2
Chinese farmers wearing cowboy hats. Doesn't seem like a big deal.
5
Clearly a first world problem.
4
I had a beach blanket just like that multi-colored horizontal striped dress about 40 years ago. I hope the Mexican Government and fashion police come after me!!!!
9
If I'm reading this correctly, we Americans are now reduced to blue jeans and cowboy hats. Wait. Did we invent spandex? ... oh NO! ... we Americans are reduced to cowboy hats and SPANDEX! (Is it any wonder we "appropriate" beautiful designs from other parts of the world?!)
9
@Jessica. Nope. Cowboy hats, unless you’re a cowboy, are cultural appropriation, too.
3
What if anything in fashion is in the public domain and the universal conscience? Are fur coats stolen from the Cave Men or the Eskimos? Fringe and beads and silver jewelry from Native Americans? The beret ? Stolen from France???
6
@old lady cook Fur coats are stolen from animals, in fact.
But your point stands.
I'm just being cheeky.
2
Soon, people that aren't from MX won't be able to open taco shops. This is absolutely ridiculous.
8
@Jonathan Butcher
Already happening.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/portland-burrito-cart-closes-after-owners-are-accused-of-cultural-appropriation_n_5926ef7ee4b062f96a348181
1
@Jonathan Butcher that already happened in Portland
1
There's an older Scottish joke about tartans: a clan leader sees a tourist wearing a kilt with his clan's tartan and approaches him, indignantly, asking, "By what right do you wear my clan's tartan?" And the tourist says, "By right of purchase."
Don't like it? Don't buy it. Like it? Buy it, either from an indigenous person or from whomever you please.
15
Those striped rainbow dresses? That pattern has been around forever and used in lots of clothing items including a poncho I bought waiting in an endless border line in Tijuana about 1975. It was not distinguished by much of anything except the price.
I think there are a lot more important things to worry about. Ideally the attention generated by Herrera will lead to increased sales of the genuine Mexican articles. Both sides could benefit?
But it's the 21st century so let's all just get angry. Easier and faster.
27
I don’t see why this is a problem. The designer clearly credited to Mexico. The result of this kind of actions by the accuser and based on the direction of your article’s discussion, will lead fashion to a desert.
In fact, this event should more appropriately make parallel to an incident happened a month ago: If an American opens a Chinese restaurant in nyc and the Chinese people don’t like it. Should they call them out? Should the ministry of food of China send a letter to the Americans?
Or perhaps every year Tibet people should hire someone to write in English to accuse overseas designers of steeling their culture since Tibet has been a constant inspiration destination for western designers. This is a problem of Mexico. Not a problem of this designer. Not a problem of fashion.
10
Who's creating and who's profiting - it was mentioned, but not enough. Profiting from not only the designs in Mexico, but also at time when colonial powers are re-upping their colonial politics, is fraught with problems.
They should
a) make sure these clothes are being made by people who are not being exploited (they probably are)
b) donate ALL profits, and then-some, to Mexican cultural/heritage groups
c) either provide a fee copy of 'colonialism for dummies' with all purchases, or maybe give these clothes to people in-need in Mexico, or in the U.S. (maybe those at the boarder crossing could use some clothes...)
The line between appropriation and homage is often hard to clarify. It seems easier when millions of dollars in profit and privilege come into play and attributions are never properly done. And of course there is a huge ethical difference between buying Navaho jewelry from a pawnbroker, for instance, or supporting a contemporary Navaho silversmith who is drawing upon traditional methods and designs. I love the model embraced by the wonderful designers and entrepreneurs at ZURI who have brought out a line of gorgeous dresses sewn on the African continent by African artisans from fabrics printed and sourced in both East and West Africa. These dresses are for everyone to wear and enjoy. And they promise a future in which shame doesn’t have to play a role.
4
@Elizabeth It’s Navajo - or more properly,
Dine’.
1
The fact that this originated with a government entity and isn't just some kerfuffle on social media makes me think that this is some weird canary-in-a-coal-mine indicator of the growing rancor between Mexico and the US.
5
How does this relate to US ? It is a Venezuelan designer of a Spanish producer presumably manufacturing in a Southeast Asian nation. Where does USA fit into the topic ?
1
Lima, Buenos Aires, & Cartagena? It can't possibly be a tribute if you don't truly acknowledge to whom you are giving it.
"Cultural Appropriation" is one of those things that sounds nice in theory but in practice you hit walls pretty immediately. What is known today as the "Navajo" pattern started with Native Americans, yes. But when did they start this pattern? Only after they had wool from Europeans. The Columbian Exchange also gave Italians tomatoes - so are Italians appropriating indigenous Native American culture by making pizza?
It starts to get ludicrous pretty quickly. If you love and respect another culture and incorporate it to make art - good on you.
24
see madison avenue? the stalls down on canal street are simply inspired by your designs - they are just celebrating you!
3
Much like when Willie Nelson said of the "Blurred Lines" song and the lawsuit . . . "They took took much"
What about food, restaurants and chefs? They borrow or are influenced from other cultures all the time.
1
The rules of cultural appropriation have always seemed very picky and illogical to me. I understand that it’s a major problem when a dominant culture profits off of the intellectual and cultural property of another, but it seems absurd to me to attack someone for synthesizing their lived experience. Can I not paint a tree in Mexico while I’m vacation? Can I not write a microtonal melody after having visited Asia? Can I not enjoy a croissant outside of France?
Part of being a human is taking in information from all five senses, processing it, giving it meaning and then allowing that experience to shape our future decisions and growth.
Rather than attacking people for using their brain and celebrating the things they encounter, let’s use our energy to encourage them to cite their sources and share profits.
11
The concept of cultural appropriation has become so silly...just one more thing some want to argue about.
One or another culture’s food is delightfully appropriated daily around the world — what makes this any different?
6
Let's look at this another way: a Herrera design is sold on Canal Street - a crime.
3
Would it be different if Puig produced these clothes in Mexico? What if the designer publicly stated the she was inspired by the colors and embroideries of Mexico and so partnered with producers there to create a line that celebrates Mexican clothing themes and styles while bringing employment to the Mexican artisans who inherited and built on this cultural capital. Vanessa Friedman doesn't say where Herrera's clothes are produced, but I'm guessing the Mexican embroideries were taken to China or Thailand(?) where Asian textile workers were taught to copy them. Then, once made, they were branded and sold as "Inspired by Mexico."
6
This is nothing new. Fashion has always trafficked in lite, I-found-it-on-vacation, versions of deeper cultural styles. Recall the recent repurposing of all things India? What’s new is our increasingly connected global world, good and bad. Good for calling out corporate ripoffs, but not gonna influence the fashionistas in the Hamptons this summer. (And thumps up for Mexico claiming its heritage!)
3
This problem might be solved if Carolina Herrera's company agreed to create a substantial fund--say for education or health care--serving Mexico's indigenous communities. Perhaps the real problem is not cultural theft but the theft of resources of many kinds that those communities have witnessed for centuries. Offering compensation in this case would help to create a new sense of First-World accountability for that very dark past.
6
@Kurt Spellmeyer - only if you feel guilty enough about it to want to make reparations for a crime you personally did not commit. I'm not saying that such a charitable effort shouldn't be made, but you can keep the guilt to yourself.
1
I am sick and tired of this idea of “Cultural Appropriation”.
Where did this limiting, parochial idea come from?
Cultures have always cross-pollinated - that “my” culture can influence that of another region is a point of pride to me, not of anger and recrimination.
Greek and Roman visual culture absolutely influenced the sculpture of Gandhara, which enriched the cultural patrimony of mankind. Gandharan and Indian sculpture traveled down the silk road to influence Tang dynasty China.
The influence of Chinese visual culture is everywhere from Korea to Central Asia. The world is much the richer for it.
If Europeans had not had access to Chinese porcelain and imitated it, there would not have been the glorious flowering of European porcelain.
“Chinoiserie” was the rage throughout Europe from the 18th century.
This is World Culture - the patrimony of all of us, not of a single tribe or group. If we were not allowed to use what we see in our travels as inspiration, things would not spread, would not be noticed .... as long as creators acknowledge and celebrate their influences.
To conflate geopolitical colonialism with cultural influence is patently ridiculous - in fact, the opposite is true - politicians and the military called the culture of conquered peoples “primitive” and denigrated it, did not accord it it’s genius. It was artists and designers who recognised this and gave it homage - Picasso was a cultural appropriator par excellence - shall we expel him from our museums?
30
Wait a second. As the article states Carolina Hererra is Venezuelan. Her company is owned by Puig, a Spanish conglomerate. As a Venezuelan, she comes from a country that was conquered by the Spanish just like Mexico. Later boundaries were drawn. Those boundaries are manmade. Maybe the lines between the cultures are manmade, too.
8
I bet Gucci and Carolina Herrera would be in court in a New York minute if the spotted counterfeits of their designs being sold.
6
@George sure, but the motifs & patterns on these items are centuries old. I think copyright has expired.
What a bout batik and Indian fabric getting used in all sorts of Western styles? That was a long time ago but still, no one died.
I agree with Melinda Cox, we should be focusing on direct rip-off's of other peoples creations. Theft is lazy.
Fashion is all about inspiration, which these Carolina Herrera's designs are," inspired by" She created something, this is not pure "theft".
4
This is yet another example of PC gone wild. Pretty soon Americans will only be able to wear Grateful Dead tee shirts and Levi's. Last year there was a big brouhaha at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts because an interactive exhibit encouraged museum visitors to try on a kimono. Young people of Asian descent protested this heinous act of cultural appropriation (guess what they were wearing). Absolutely ridiculous. I hope this designer refuses to back down or apologize.
37
When I can finally afford to buy the stuff maybe I'll start caring about where they drew their inspiration.
1
This has become a really thorny issue.
When I grew up (the 1960's) the fashion industry popularized the Nehru jacket. In 1975, Billie Jean King and Arthur Ashe won their Wimbledon singles titles sporting (without controversy) matching Afros, and when I reached college non-Communists showed their coolness by wearing Chairman Mao caps. No one claimed sole ownership of such things because everything was everyone's. Back then at least, imitation truly WAS the sincerest form of flattery.
Of course there are lines that must not be crossed. The blackface turtleneck, for example, was (euphemism alert) an egregious miscalculation. I like to think no fashion house would dare design a hat resembling a Klan hood -- because even if one tried to argue that certain things are an homage, what are they an homage TO? Some things are just plain offensive.
But as far as claiming that an idea (say, for a gorgeous dress) is "stolen"... I think it might be instructive to take our cues from rock music. No other form of expression borrows as freely from all other types of music. And it's in the ability to incorporate elements of -- and occasionally bastardize -- everything in its vicinity that it's evolved and remained relevant.
10
That's it. Gather all those paintings by Matisse, Gaugin, and Bonnard, burn them! Sacred Polynesian themes in them. Tear up the New World Symphony, it's a crib! Burn those Picasso sculptures -- African masks! oh and those Picasso paintings with Japanese patterns, they go too. As for that curved line in the Chagall painting -- stolen! from Polynesia, Africa, Japan, and the cave paintings of pre-historic Europe! I'll get the kindling, you get the match.
9
Absurd. People are influenced by the world around them. If something is not copyrighted or otherwise legally off limits than it can be “appropriated” by others. Can I not build a house that looks like a French chateau or an Italian villa ?
9
And were the Impressionists glib opportunists when they appropriated the compositions of Japanese Ukiyo-e in creating their masterworks?
4
I think that every manufacturer of jeans that are sold with rips and tears in them should kick back half of their profits to all the poor people who can't afford to buy jeans at upscale stores and have been wearing shoddy looking hand-me-downs for generations.
5
I am exhausted over "cultural appropriation". Enough!.
From now on, when anybody uses the term, I stop reading/listening/pay attention in any way whatsoever. You can talk to those still trapped in the echo chamber; I am going outside for a breathe of fresh air.
12
The very idea of “cultural appropriation” is perplexing. For thousands of years, people have inspired their own creations on what other people, close to them or from far away lands have created previously. The Silk Road has provided for thousands of years Chinese silk for Western people. How dared they to use a material that clearly comes from a different culture from the other side of the world ! Next thing would be the Greeks getting upset at everybody, from the Romans on, who build anything with a facade resembling a Classical Greek temple.
From “intersectionality” to “cultural appropriation”, the progressive imagination keeps coming with weird notions that fly in the face of millennia of common sense.
6
I'll start caring about cultural appropriation as soon as those who pretend to care about it start calling for the banning of pants (stolen from the Chinese thousands of years ago) in the US, or demand that the music we listen to be stripped of all blues, Latin, and Eastern European musical influence.
7
Of course this is appropriation, and of course it's been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. We're in 2019, there's ways that C. Herrera could have incorported these designs while also being respectful. She could have had parts of the clothings made by craftspeople of the region--thus bringing attention to their traditions while also respecting the fact that they "own" these designs. It doesn't take a genius to do this and it should not be surprising to Herrera to be on the receiving end of this backlash. It isn't 1960 anymore.
1
@mb- how is this disrespectful? Ms. Herrera is Latina, a native of Venezuela. This is a part of her cultural and social heritage, and she has as much right to it as anybody.
Look at what modern Mexican fashion designers are working on in Mexico City or Acapulco. A few might be working on updating 1000 year old Mayan fashions, but the vast majority are putting their spin on dresses with a classical silouette (Greece and Italy), or empire style (France) or kimonos (Japan), or a shift (?) or torn jeans and a hoodie (US).
4
This is like Paul Simon being pilloried for his Graceland album. Aren't all artists inspired by something? As a Mexican-American, I adore this high fashion, Mexican inspired line of clothing. Wish I could afford one of her dresses!
9
I don't even know what to say at this point. It's all so nonsensical. I don't care how many times it's rephrased, repeated, or sung from the hills, the moon is not made of cheese and this concept doesn't stand up to more than a few moments scrutiny.
8
I don't see what the big deal is. These clothes are beautiful and only enhance a culture, not anything else. If it is done to degrade then it is another matter, but I don't see this here.
15
The flow and mixing of cultures is as normal as water running down hill. The important thing is that "appropriated culture" is recognized for the source, and treated respectfully.
We should pay attention to those cultural artifacts that may hold religious, or sacred, meanings to other people. For example, most Christians would not appreciate seeing the crucifix used in an inappropriate, or vulgar, way by another culture.
5
People who say others are committing cultural appropriation should absolutely use the term when it is warranted, but be wary of not over-using it, so it retains its power and meaning. So we take it seriously.
Where does inspiration leave off and cultural appropriation begin? Where might inspiration draw attention to the creations of a culture and benefit the culture? Anyone who follows "bohemian style" influencers on Instagram see style influence all day long from Mexico and Central & South American cultures. People are traveling there, buying the goods created locally, and selling them so the original artisans can make money. Perhaps Herrera is on this trend and will draw further support for this marketplace.
Stealing is another matter. I would think stealing would be on the level of copyright and trademark violation. Copying an exact design so closely that the work crosses the line from "inspired by" to "copied." Perhaps a stealing story needs images to support it. I don't see stealing here.
5
As someone long familiar with the fashion industry, the Mexican government is off the market in criticizing the Carolina Herrera company and its designers.
Creative and commercial artists borrow constantly, whether it's in art, music, theater, film, architecture, clothing, footwear, handbags, you name it.
If the borrowing is a completely word-for-word, note-for-note, or stich-for-stich copy, than it's stealing. But the fashion I saw from Herrera is not that. It's an interpretation.
Take the striped Breton fisherman shirts. There are many variations on the classic, from companies at every price point. They're an homage, just as the Herrera garments are.
Instead of criticizing Herrera, the Mexicans might want to celebrate those clothes and invite people to buy "the original classics" that inspired them--from the Mexicans who make them.
25
It's a fine line between inspiration for any design and reproduction of another's design. Given the difficulty of discerning that line, the widespread ripping off of design across all design endeavors and the generally limited damage of crossing the line, the best course is likely letting the market decide. The Mexican minister is on very thin ice here, and would better serve her country finding ways to better promote her country's designers and culture. There are better ways of making her point; have a fashion show in NYC parading the Herrera thousand dollar blouses alongside the $25 peasant blouses.
27
I prefer to buy art from the original artists. I don't think artists will ever stop stealing from each other, and I recognize that CH added their own elements, but anytime I can, I go to the source, not the copy. In this case, I can't afford the copy anyway but wouldn't buy it even if I could.
1
@Petras
You need to see the embroideries side by side. They are very different from each other. The fact that you lump them all is telling...
There was no reason why the fashion house couldn't collaborate with the group that invented and created these specific patterns. They could do the embroideries and the Herrera corp. could do the cutting and sewing... or the other way around...
4
@Kati
I am a textile artist and designer who am well versed in global textiles, so I think it's not telling that I am comparing styles of folk art from one continent to another and drawing favourable comparisons between them.
This is not the first time couture is borrowing from a specific culture. I do not see this is a
sin, but part and parcel of what art is and will always be. A collaborative work with roots from everywhere.
11
@Lanie
Art is a living thing. It's a global thing. The source of the designs can the found from many different countries, my native Sweden included. Why the Mexican government thinks it has a monopoly on colourful flower patterns is
beyond me. Very similar designs can be found in original
folk dresses in the province of Dalarna in Sweden and
several others. Also from Eastern Europe and from India. Just to mention a few countries.
15
i don't own or represent a clothing label, so to say that my influence is limited is an understatement. i have, however, been shy to wear clothing that doesn't relate to my own cultural heritage. so long, cheongsam, i loved you.
Where does stealing-vs-appropriation start, and where does it end? As Stravinsky said when he was accused of stealing from Mozart, "Of course I steal from Mozart.. I love Mozart!" Artists appropriate all the time, from anywhere and anyone.
I do agree that for a luxury entity to appropriate ideas from needy people can entail a moral obligation. How about designers giving a percentage of profits on appropriated ideas to the societies that developed those ideas?
17
@B. F.
The problem is I can plagiarize whole troupes of street musicians with impunity but try posting five seconds of Sony copyright on YouTube (?).
1
It's not a matter of pointing out that someone did something with bad intentions, it's not about the intention, it's about the action and the ignorance around it.
13
@Marcia
I have heard this argument and disagree that intentions are irrelevant. Clear thinking people must make a distinction between intentionally bigoted actions and offenses which stem from carelessness or ignorance.
4
@Marcia
Intention, ignorance.....how can you even start to think
that you can isolate art or arts and crafts, the origin of
design, the fluidity of it all?
If you think like that we could have no other jeans than
Lewis....what a foreign thought that is. The world is full of colourful flower patterns in textile designs in arts
and crafts and in traditional dress. Most provinces of
my native Sweden can show off as colourful patterns as the Mexicans or other world cultures.
The whole issue is absurd. The Mexican government needs to take a step back. It is looking very ignorant and silly as we speak.
180
@Petras
To be fair, this was one person in the Mexican government. Ask 100 Mexicans where the Herrera Resort 2020 collection falls on their list of political priorities and I bet you can guess what they say...
1
Isn’t the sharing of influences what globalization is all about? Clothing with Mexican-style embroidery has been available for ages. It’s been made by companies with and without ties to Mexico. People who don’t live in Mexico love the bright colors and floral motifs. If Herrera bought fabrics embroidered in Mexico to use in her clothes, would that be okay? Now I don’t dare embroider a shirt for myself in a similar style because it would be inappropriate? I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense.
204
@Jean Sims
Can I resample a Nigerian song? Use Amazon's one-click patent? Why should I be allowed to rip off a Mexican fashion designer?
2
@Jean Sims
The pattern in the Herrera collection are not those typical of Mexican tourist art. The people who created those specific patterns should have done the embroidery for the fashion house and have a proper share of the profit.
Obviously if they had gotten a patent or a copyright, there would not have been an issue, but how would that group of natives in Mexico know or even think about that? In contrast you can rest assured that the clothing and specific embroideries in the Herrera collection are now under copyrigths, but not by their original designers.
There is a think line between "borrowing" and exploitation. The fashion house could have collaborated with the group of folks who invented and and continually create those embroideries. But the business chose to make the original living folks invisible....
One comparison: do you think all those bootlegged CDs in China from US artists are fine? How is an artist to make a living if she has not even one cent of return for her art and work? Same with those creative embroiderers.
Obviously there would be nothing inappropriate in you embroidering similar patterns on your own blouse (except you couldn't match the degree of skills required unless you spent years of practice). The issue would be in someone else selling that blouse, claiming they created it and pocketing the money.
1
@CJ - Well, all the great composer of the past not only used folk tunes, but they used tunes from other composers. Beethoven used a tune from Handel's Messiah about 150 times in one overture.
5
If cultures are not able to borrow from one another than that's basically the end of culture right there. Indigenous arts have always been heavily influenced by other cultures. Take, for example, Pueblo pottery. You can mark a distinct design change in Pueblo pottery from before and after contact with the Spanish, when for the first time the Pueblo began picturing living beings. The Navajo made only extremely basic weavings out of native fibers or cotton before the Spanish arrived because they didn't have access to wool. Each culture borrowed from the other. Perhaps its a symptom of the degradation of our cultural consciousness that we now have become so protective of identity that we condemn others for doing what has always been done since we first evolved - borrowing the best ideas from one another.
279
@Shane fully agree that the cultural meiosis of two cultures interacting renders ever-more complex and beautiful pieces of art. However, the example you describe is apt: it's true the weaving of the Navajo became more interesting, but the conquering Spanish called them savages, oppressed them, and took the best bits of their culture and called them their own.
The question is less should cross-cultural pollination take place, and more how do we uproot and prevent colonial attitudes which lead to modern forms of marginalization. On the one hand, we have a government that effectively treats Mexicans like pariahs, and on the other hand we have corporate America paying "homage" to them but little else in the form of equity, or even attribution beyond hailing "Mexican artisans."
24
@Gabriel H The Navajo are a great example because their culture was so radically changed by European contact. Not only did their weaving dramatically expand and change, they began silversmithing only after the area became part of the United States, which they weren't known for before contact. The Navajo themselves are recent arrivals to the SW, only showing up in the area in the 1400s, when they migrated from northwestern Canada. The entire southwest is a great place to examine the sharing of cultures because it's fairly easy to point to examples of "before" and "after." If a Navajo weaver incorporates a bus or airplane into a weaving, both examples of technology discovered by Europeans, are they appropriating European culture, or reflecting their experience with it?
84
@Gabriel H Thank you for this comment, it's helpful and important context.
3
These types of discussions are frightening. The only place this leads is to everyone wearing a uniform. Political correctness will not stop at clothes and art, but our free speech as well. There is a bigger picture here to think about.
304
@Betsy
Oh, please. I think you are getting overly dramatic here. While cultural appropriation is sometimes going too far, in this case it looks like the Carolina Herrera company has gone a bit too far on the outright copy without acknowledgement. However, it is not the end of the world.
Regarding free speech, it has never been absolute, and it will never be, but I don't think it is in danger due to cases like this one. I am more worried when people use free speech to create hatred towards groups different from them, like white supremacists, neonazis or incels. Or when or government lies to us with impunity.
This issue is quite simple. If you think Carolina Herrera's designs are not a problem, good for you, buy as many as you want (if you can afford them), but let other people express their concerns about what they perceive an ethical misstep. After all, that's what free speech is all about.
And yet, it’s totally acceptable to source vintage patterns from The Design Library, make a change here or there, and take the new version to market. For better or worse, it’s how the industry works: relate, translate and surprise. We need to focus our attention on ending direct and blatant knock offs.
44
@Melinda Cox ... and those vintage designs were appropriated from other cultures, as well. Think about Colonial America: Everything that was worn, by both men and women, was appropriated from France and England.
1
@Melinda Cox But aren't these examples of blatant and direct knock-offs? Of patterns, of styles, of techniques? The only difference between marketing these dresses and selling a knock-off Birkin bag is the wealth and privilege of the creator. Why are we prohibited from copying the designs from Hermes, but we can freely copy the designs of indigenous peoples, call them our own "interpretations" and become filthy rich from it? The former is copyright infringement, the second is exploitation/appropriation.
2
Why haven’t the indigenous protected their designs ? If it is so distinct and proprietary than an attorney or governmental bureau could have filed IP rights accordingly
1
I don't always agree with what is said to constitute cultural appropriation, but I do think this is an example of it, as these look to me like exact copies. The striped dress, for example - that is not original in any way. It's one thing to be inspired by a locale or a culture, but it's no okay to grab it wholesale and slap your name on it.
15
@Suzanna I don't disagree, but I'm having trouble understanding who "owns" the originals and how compensation would issued. And at what point are It reminds me a little of brand names that are too successful can lose their trademark protections.
3
@Lady Edith
The originals are owned by the living artists. Those artists should have been given credit and part of the profits. Like any artist would.
@Suzanna- that striped fabric pattern has been so oversold here in America these last 70 years, I'm amazed anybody wants to call it "Mexican" anymore.
You're right that it's not "original", but the problem is that it's not original to anyone anymore, not even Mexico.
4
I agree with your analysis, fashion is an amalgam in taking it's inspiration form everywhere, but this 'appropriation' has been going on for too long, and whether we like it or not, colonial mentality is the underlying foundation.
Presenting those ethnic specific embroideries and designs, it behooved Ms Herrera to bring those ethnic groups into lime-light, give them the due credit and perhaps even share a certain profit margin. All these Mexican ethnic communities are poor.
But, for all the mumbo- jumbo of being delighted-by-colors, homage and amazing-history spiel, when it comes to money, then capitalism resorts back to its miserly ways, doesn't it?
I will give a varied example.
How would say Germans or Swiss feel if say, Sabyasachi came along, took their ethnic embroidery designs, put them on Indian clothing, never gave credit to the history or the folks he worked with, and claimed it, 'a breeze through the Alps'... what do think would happen then?
I am glad, these fashion houses are being held accountable. Fashion will keep on drawing from diverse sources but sensitivity to cultures which may have honed skills or designs over hundreds of years-- you simply can't appropriate as your own, without acknowledging them, giving due credit verbally, physically and financially.
18
@Ash.
Vis a vis, the Swiss/German analogy, I can’t imagine the majority would even care. They don’t wear much in the way of dirndls anymore. As nations they have more important things to worry about.
36
@Ash.
I'll tell you how the Europeans feel… the Italians and the French trademark foodstuffs and region of origin to protect things like Parmesan and Champagne. You can't even call cheese Gorgonzola unless it's made by one of the 2 or 3 family companies in the town of Gorgonzola, Italy. That's pretty precious of them.
9
@Ash.
If Sabyasachi put a Swiss embroidery design on Indian clothing, what would happen?
Nothing.
maybe some pride in the art community of Zurch along the lines of, "hey look, people like our stuff".
This comes, however, from their perspective as a culture that has not suffered marginalization.
3
I am so liberal in so many ways but this hubbub over "cultural appropriation" really rubs me the wrong way. As long as the designer is admiring the traditional clothing and not mocking it, what is the problem? Seriously -- isn't appreciation of other cultures a good thing?
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@Ella
Appreciation is all well and good but minting money from things which are exclusive to a specific culture, while not using their labor, acknowledging them or sharing profit is beyond mere appreciation.
Ms Herrera and Puig are a multimillion entity, she/they have the means to do the right thing-- though, having the capital should never be the grounds to do the right thing, but it is the ground reality.
40
@Alexandria
By your argument
- Starbucks should give a kick back to France every time they sell a cafe au lait
-Domino's should give a kick back to Italy every time they sell a pizza
- The house I live in is a tudor style, so clearly, the builder owes some money to England.
- I got a manicure last week and nail polish originated in China, so my salon owes some money to the Chinese government, right?
The problem is, who, "exactly" would be paid? Broad concepts or designs that originate in a particular country aren't necessarily owned by anyone. So, is the designer expected to pay the Mexican government (because that money will certainly make it's way to the needy, won't it? smh)? Is it supposed to randomly donate money to specific groups and if yes, why one group and not another? Seems like a no-win situation.
It's one thing to take or use ideas in a culturally insensitive or racist way or to steal a specific design or idea from an identifiable owner. I would also argue that it is also wrong when certain ideas or concepts are not given their due until they are presented by a white savior (i.e, I don't blame Justin Timberlake for appropriating black music, I do blame record companies that don't promote that music the same way when performed by black artists). But to use the inspiration from other cultures spreads those ideas farther than they might otherwise go and I think, makes us all a bit more open-minded to different ideas. And that can only be good.
225
@Alexandria I appreciate your thoughtful, respectful response! I think it's entirely possible that Carolina Herrera did take the time to understand the history of the designs, although I have no way of knowing. As for the indigenous communities, some people may very well seek out the authentic designs after Carolina Herrera has turned them into high fashion.
16
To borrow from other cultures is normal. It's been going on since humans hunted and gathered. We need to borrow and try on methods and cultural habits in order to learn from each other, in order to appreciate each other, and in order to create peace with each other.
Who will wear blue jeans? Only Americans?
Who will wear fedoras -- only women? It was created for a female character.
Who will wear bathrobes? Only the Japanese? The early bathrobes came from the idea of Japanese yukata.
We learn, grow, change, worldwide as we borrow from each other.
It's what makes the world go around peacefully.
393
@Alive and Well You know who else was a vociferous critic of cultural appropriation? The Red Guard during China's Cultural Revolution. In their zeal to "purify" Chinese culture of "polluting influences" they destroyed huge amounts of incredibly beautiful and important art from Chinese history, in addition to murdering millions and setting China's development back by decades. The desire to claim the right to define a nation's culture and expunge it of "foreign influence" has never led to a positive place.
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@Alive and Well
While we're at it we will need to take off our pajamas too.
7
@Alive and Well
Blue jeans are made of fabric de Nimes. Only the French should be able to wear them. Or maybe only Franco-Americans. But if they have rivets, like Levi's you have to be Californian also, and maybe Jewish.
13
They could have hired Mexican craftsmen to do the work. It seems to me Herrera and company believe “couture level” craftsmanship is better and more sophisticated than Mexican.
18
@Jeanine. Their own designers knew what the boss wants and are on payroll.
What extra would hiring someone from that country bring to the process? And please be open to the fact that perhaps, indeed, the company had world class folks working for them.
24
@Jeanine
"It seems to me Herrera and company believe “couture level” craftsmanship is better and more sophisticated than Mexican."
So do people who pay $460 for a designer t-shirt to wear with their $1,100 jeans and $3,500 bag.
None of this is about logic or sense, its about "I can spend more on my beach outfit than your family can spend on food for a year. You like it?"
Having worked in the industry, I can tell you these are not the same as pulling into a gas station outside Tijuana and grabbing a few dresses from a roadside stall.
Not that they are in any way worth what they cost, unless you have tens of thousands to toss around on cool things for the heck of it. That is, not unless money means literally nothing to you.
Its the happy side of income inequality.
Frankly, if I were dress guy, I'd be more excited about finding something by the roadside.
Mrs. Mexico would do better to celebrate the growing exposure of her country's (lets not even go to government treatment of the native population that "inspired" these designs) artists and artisans, invite people to see and sample the real thing, and maybe ask old Carolina down for a show or two and a photo-shoot.
Why all the angst? Why all the rage? Would she be happier of Herrera borrowed from Holland?
3
@Jeanine
"It seems to me Herrera and company believe “couture level” craftsmanship is better and more sophisticated than Mexican."
Couture-level sewing is an incredibly fine skill: there are not many seamstresses in the world who can produce it, and produce it on a rigid schedule. This is a SKILL, not a plot on the part of Western imperialism to steal nice things from oppressed people.
And to flip the situation a bit, just as a Caroline Herrera gown is not objectively "better" than one made by indigenous people, *neither is the indigenous gown objectively "better" than one made by Caroline Herrera.*
Has this particular group actually said anything? Or is everyone here white knighting them? I hope everyone realizes that this overflow of concern quickly verges on condescension.
6
Really. This is what the cultural minister of Mexico is concerned about? Ridiculous. The designers at Herrera hired their own people to design this. They didn't steal. This ""theft" seems really like an attempt to gain Twitter followers for Alejandra Frausto.
155
If I had to get rid of the works of every artist that borrowed, or was inspired by, another artist, I would have no art. The greater sin is that striped dress is hideous. The floral on black is nice, tho.
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@Mhevey As Picasso said, "Good artists borrow, great artists steal." I hope you don't have any works by Picasso. Some of his most important "stealing" was from primitive African art.
6
I think The Times is going pretty easy on these designers. Inspiration involves absorbing outside ideas and reinventing them as something new. These clothes appropriate and directly copy traditional designs. Where is the creativity in that? Wake up and get with it, people, no excuses.
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@Laura Gorman
Creativity? If the design has been sitting around for hundreds of years and nobody has bothered to incorporate it into a nice dress, where's the creativity in that, and why are we only now complaining?
There must be thousands of "traditional" patterns, themes and color combinations out there. If one designer wakes up to this, selects two or three to build a collection around, and those hit, doesn't that take some creativity and initiative? If not, then there is plenty left for others who want to launch multi-million dollar companies.
3
@Laura Gorman Are you looking at the same photos I am? Have you seen every 'traditional' design there is?
When I, for example, see some stereotypical New Mexico landscape on a poster or advertisement, do I worry that someone in New Mexico designed it, or had a similar piece of art?
Oh, the bite of food I just ate had a somewhat Tex-Mex taste to it. Spit it out immediately if not cooked by someone from the area!
Foolishness to the extreme.
10
@Laura Gorman
Right, nothing like the traditional design of the dress in the first photo to support your claim. Tell me again how the people of Mexico worked their crops in their straplesses ball gowns.
8
The supposed furor over "cultural appropriation" of fashion is simply ridiculous. No one "owns' a look or is owed anything if others like and emulate it.
Emulation is the highest form of appreciation, and it should instill pride, not outrage.
245
@Think
Well, I think that unless you are an American (preferably a cowboy or miner) you shouldn't wear blue jeans. And don't get me started on white tee shirts. The world has appropriated our culture. Shame on them.
20
What about American clothing companies that sell Mexican blouses with flowers and other Mexican symbols? There are more than 10 of these companies. The blouses may be imported but still have the colorful and beautiful flowers and symbols from different parts of Mexico. No, this seems like a ruse to me to try and get money from Ms. Herrera. This group should change their tune.
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@Mary Jane
And those "Mexican blouses" were fashionable in the Haight-Ashbury and on Telegraph Avenue in the 1960s.
7
Which hippie do I pay for the tie-dye shirt I made in the bathtub ?
14