Love the title! Peter deVries lives on.
Was watching female Democrats on MSNBC today jump on Mayor Pete for being less than enthusiastic with respect to Al Franken’s ouster.
Truth is Dems don’t play the smart game. A better optic would have been Al Franken on the senate floor announcing his resignation one minute after Trump. He could have made the point that to solve the legit female concerns, it takes all sides to make it really work and for him to resign while the Prez gets to stay does not solve the problem. Get it !
For a party that likes to gloat about how smart they are, I am always amused by how dumb the Dems play this game.
If Trump gets re-elected it will be the same blueprint as last time.
He can’t win by numbers, he has to count on pouty (Bernie like fans 2016) Dems whose first choice didn’t win and apathetic Dems in Philly and Detroit who decide to stay home.
It is the Dems to lose just like last time. Good luck ... it is just the fate of the Republic at stake.
4
Bret: Why not just pass a motion of censure? That's a stupid suggestion? You assume facts not in evidence, that is, that Congress would pass such a motion. Why would a Republican or swing-state/district senator or representative stick his or her neck out on a vote that would, if passed, have no consequence what so ever? It's why "Grizzly bear poking" never caught on as a sport.
2
Nixon had no connection to the original Watergate burglary -- the "underlying crime" -- but he conspired to obstruct the investigation, and it was for that conspiracy -- and not for the "underlying crime" -- that articles of impeachment were voted and he was resigned (because he was told he would be convicted).
It seems to me that there is plenty of evidence that Trump conspired to obstruct the investigation. That is not "fighting back" -- and its is both a crime and an impeachable offense.
Bret Stephens argues that impeachment is not strategically wise, not that it is not warranted/justified by the evidence.
2
"Impeachment will not end Donald Trump’s presidency, since the Senate will never vote to convict. Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him. Impeachment will have to be based on an interpretation of the Mueller report that is, at the very least, contestable. Impeachment will further polarize the country and consume the country’s attention away from everything else."
So, Bret, You have been drinking the Trump Punch!
I was thinking that that was the problem.
2
Oh no, two know nothing pundits arguing the merits of impeachment while democracy goes down the tube! Have these two cover the latest cartoon movies, and get some real knowledgeable commentators show how the billionaires are destroying the rule of law, and the Constitution with the help of a pathological liar, fraud, and racist.
5
Trump's reelection is a given unless the Dems repudiate their left wing fringe (some of whom are in Congress) and acknowledge that 1)there is still an Electoral College, and 2) deplorables vote. The left is baffled that some people are still too unevolved to see our need for open borders, mass illegal immigration, and mass gun confiscation, but the voters will remind them in 2020. Then another four years of the Trump wrecking ball will make the last few look like a green socialist paradise.
5
The heavier the evidence weighs in the balance, the more likely it will have effect. To unseat Trump and/or the Republicans supporting him, the best strategy calls for following through on the ongoing procedures for gathering ever-more evidence against him and, by implication, them. The evidence will not go away; the more there is, when it's most opportune or necessary to act, for example, up to and on election day, the better. So Congresswoman Pelosi is right.
3
so grateful you are giving us this form of news through bret and gail. i so enjoy it. they make the dismal seem less so and the news less anvil-like. hope we will have more of this. thank you.
2
Unfortunately, Gail is 100% correct in saying that if gun control didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it never will.
3
@JG All the mass shooters bought their guns legally, none were stopped by background checks. Nothing short of universal gun confiscation will prevent madmen from getting weapons, but 100 million gun owners vote. Democrats have been committing political suicide in middle America for years by demanding ever more restrictive gun control, and they will do it again if they continue on this path.
The US has always had plenty of guns, but mass shootings were extremely rare - the cause of the change lies in modern culture and entertainment, not hardware. It is totally counterproductive to try and restrict honest people's cherished gun rights by banning or taking hardware, and will re-elect Trump. The planet cannot afford that.
1
Once upon a time, the US cared about students. We were trying to beat Russia. It brought out the best of us and the worst of us.
Our funding of students was proper. Our fighting of Russia was needed. But what happens when it is over?
The US turned into a nightmare. We became greedy. We thought we won, and many mistook their greed for the reason for victory.
We won not because of greed or self interest. We won because freedom motivates people. And people motivated by freedom do God's work.
We've lost it. Can we get it back? It seems unlikely to me. But I'm just one person. I don't know how things can play out.
We can start by doing things we know are right.
We can free students of debt. Free them of debt, free their minds to create new realities.
3
Climate change is not going to be affected by Progressives screaming at Capitalists.
It is always and ever an economic issue, and the wealthier nations get to decide how and when we change our appetite for energy. Right now, with the wealth transfer to less developed economies, college students living with their parents are not the best messengers.
The middle class of the wealthiest economies, specifically, for they will be MOST negatively impacted. They and those in the developing world who just took delivery of a car or motorcycle that has changed their life.
If you are wealthy, have two homes, two cars, take public transportation home from First Night, feel free to turn down your thermostats and leave the AC off this Summer.
If you live at inflection, you matter.
Otherwise, be quiet.
2
Yes, if Trump is impeached, the Senate won’t vote to remove him from office. So what? Should Emmett Till’s killers not have been brought to trial, because an all-white, all-male jury in 1955 Mississippi would never convict them? When a crime is committed, you bring formal charges. Justice requires it. If in the end justice isn’t served, at least you’ve made the effort.
Also, the supposed dangers to Democrats if they initiate impeachment are not based on reality. Impeachment will rile up Trump’s base? As Bill Maher said, they’re already riled up—they wore BORN riled up. It’ll divide us further? Aren’t we already divided to the max? What impeachment proceedings WILL do is highlight Trump’s dishonesty and obstruction for people in a way that a 448-page written report can’t. And some of those famous swing voters will begin to see the truth.
The Democrats need to start the impeachment process NOW.
9
Please stop this joint venture. They offer nothing. Thank you
2
Disagree. Best thing in the NYTimes.
2
It's looking less and less like the Democrats in Congress have any actual strategy regarding Trump and the crimes he has committed /is committing.
I wasn't a fan of Pelosi being Speaker another term. I'm even less so now. Simply doing nothing is not a strategy.
Tangentially related, I'm presuming Pelosi was behind the recent action by the House Democrats to block political consultants from working for primary challengers to incumbent Democrats in Congress. What a vile policy, designed to protect the old guard (largely white and male) and to stem the tide of more newcomers like what we saw in 2018 and who represent America's diversity. That, by itself, is reason enough to give Pelosi the heave ho.
5
@fact or friction Please recall that about a third of the electorate is white and male. Vilifying them will be as productive in 2020 as it was in 2016.
1
Gail, The economy is really good for people who own stocks and bonds. Wage earners, of the lower middle, which is a significant number, are highly stressed. The economy is not good for these folks. And they are Trump’s base. Think about it.
6
Thanks, guys. I love it when you talk.
And I have a thought. Please bear with me.
Ever read "The Gathering Storm"--the first in Winston Churchill's six volume history of World War II?
Well--he discusses the disastrous Munich agreement of October, 1938. Britain--France--Russia were pledged, bound by a solemn commitment, to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia should that country be attacked.
Hitler, of course, was doing just that. He was proposing to take out a big chunk (plus their border fortifications). Later he took out the whole country.
BUT--
--they welshed on their agreement. They DIDN'T come to the aid of Czechoslovakia.
AND--
--Churchill says: the Czechs should have fought. Taken up arms. IF (he says) there'd been serious fighting, Britain and France and Russia would inevitably been drawn in. Come to blows with der Fuehrer. At long last.
THAT'S--
--how I feel about impeachment.
IF--
--the House impeaches and soberly, seriously, irrefutably lays out before the American people the innumerable delinquencies of this man, Mr. Donald J. Trump--
THEN--
--maybe (just maybe) the resulting outcry would be such: the Senate would HAVE to act. Would HAVE to convict.
A slim chance. Oh so slim. I think that supine senatorial torpor as Mr. Trump mauls and manhandles the norms of our democracy--
--well guys, I think it well-nigh treasonous.
But that's a subject for another day.
Thanks again.
4
Yes we should Impeach he has done impeachable offenses and this should be laid out for all the bear. For principle alone this should not be allowed to happen again and the message should if you do this this is what will happen just because it maybe hard or near impossible does not mean it should not happen. Come on Dems do your job put out the story for all to see and understand if you do you your job and a good one there will be no need to worry about the moron getting elected. No one but the worse should ever want to be associated with the clown. He should never get away with thumb his nose at the government.
3
Right-wing conservative fascism and nationalism is on the rise from America to Brazil to France to Hungary to Poland to Israel to Russia to Saudi Arabia to Egypt.
When given a choice between fighting right-wing Nazi Germany and left-wing Soviet Union, America and Great Britain allied with Stalin and fought Hitler. Between Dunkirk and D- Day the Soviet Union took on Nazi Germany solo. And 27.5 million Soviet citizens died.
That World War II holocaust was only exceeded by the 30 million Chinese slain by the Japanese Empire. China took on Japan solo from 1933 until 12/7/41.
After a brief interlude following the two deadliest wars in human history the delusion that socioeconomic issues- capitalism and communism- had replaced the old primate ape animal stand-by for conflict and cooperation has been exposed.
The one and only human race species began in Africa 300,000 years ago. Driven by our evolutionary fit biological DNA genetic nature and nurture to crave fat, salt, sugar, habitat, water, kin and sex by any means necessary including conflict and cooperation.
While what happened in Virginia Beach on Friday- 12 klled and 4 wounded- took national notoriety, 10 people in Chicago were killed and 52 shot over the past weekend. And no one aka Donald Trump,Sr noticed nor cared. They were faceless nameless invisible black and brown American statistics.
4
Dear Gail and Bret, you seem too ALOOF about democracy!
Take the letters of the word ALOOF and turn them into A FOOL.
I think you are very foolish about the need to impeach Trump.
You sound confident that democracy can survive Trump OK.
What guarantees do you have that democracy will live on? None!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me suggest the "Democracy" song of Leonard Cohen (1992).
"Democracy is coming to the USA"
The threats of Trump may be waking us up to a new democracy.
But we may have to take actions, such as impeachment, now.
And soon, we will celebrate another Independence Day, July 4.
What if the Founding Fathers had been too afraid to declare?
Where would we be, now?
Please consider the words of "Democracy" in the Times, now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2
Bret Stephens is bemoaning the absence of common sense gun control? Just when I thought his hypocrisy had reached superhuman limits. Just go away and take the rest of your greed based, bigoted party with you. "Conservatism" just means lower taxes for you and making sure people who don't look like you never get the full protection of the Constitution. Stop pretending anything otherwise.
1
This is all you know about liberals being totally unaware of their own bias.
"I don’t buy into the theory that liberals are going into some kind of left-wing Trumpist tailspin. "
Seriously? Did she really say this?
OMG!!!
Johnny: It’s about ethics, trust, friendship. Ethics wise he’s a little shaky; like he ain’t got none.
Leo: So you want him impeached?
The Dane: For starters.
1
"I’d like to think future generations could look back and say — hey, the American people wouldn’t stand for a president attempting to obstruct justice. So they got rid of him."
What part of Bret's point that it will fail in the Senate (i.e. we will not get rid of him) did you not understand, Gail?
"Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy..."
Come out to my neck of the woods - uh, desert, Brett. Things 'round here are starting to look an awful lot like late '06 - early '07. Despite what appears to be an absence of the weirdo mortgages that poured gasoline on the last recession credit remains godawful cheap, the local citizenry is grotesquely hyperextending itself financially, and the first round of layoffs - 500+ by MGM - kicked in last week. Further, nothing says "discretionary income" like a weekend in Vegas, and the number of visitors from SoCal, where the highest percentage of our visitors come from, is down substantially from previous years. It's wise to bear in mind that in an economic downturn Vegas is the first to crash and the last to recover, so keep your eyes on this steaming hole in the High Mojave as a bellwether for what may lie ahead for the rest of the country - it may not come in time to dispel the hangover from Trump's economic "policies" to prevent him from getting re-elected, but do I find some schadenfreudistic pleasure in thinking that if that were to happen, the American economy would crash and burn because of them on his watch, and not on the Democrats for a change.
5
Trump is daring the Democrats to impeach because that is his classic "so sue me, see you in court" defense. No thinking voter will change their mind because Trump tries to look like a martyr. He has no credibility with anyone but his rabid fans. That the Senate will never convict Trump is obvious and irrelevant - no president has ever been convicted under impeachment proceedings. Pelosi must do the right thing and call Trump's bluff. No man is above the law. Impeach Trump. It is the only honest thing to do.
2
@Jefflz Trump had enough credibility with his rabid fans to win the presidency in 2016. Democrats' are guaranteeing his re-election with their willful refusal to recognize voters' anger at illegal immigration, and their willful blindness about 100 million gun-owning voters' attachment to the Second Amendment.
1
The Right is full of hate! Oh yeah. The Democrat left and many others were willing to impeach Trump 2 Years ago for TREASON and COLLABORATION with Russians. Any apologies by Gail or Bret or a single Democrat for now disproven allegations. Who is defending the Trump Dossier, which was used to tar Trump? Only Silence.
That's right-Move on to Obstruction. Churn that over for a few more years. You know that will never fly.
Charge- The President supports haters and bigots based on Charlottesville statement. The issue at Charlottesville originally was the monuments to Confederate military personnel. On one side were supporters who for historical reasons or feelings for family who fought or were lost, believing the monuments should remain. On the other, those who rightly see the monuments as symbols of oppression of blacks. In the middle were groups of NeoNazis and Left Wing Agitators.
The NeoNazis and others representing the traditional South had a permit to March. The Charlottesville Police directed the Neo Group to move to the park. The Police directed the Left Wing agitators to move elsewhere. The LW agitators blocked the entrance of the march, resulting in the mayhem which ensued. Read the report commissioned by the Liberal Charlottesville govt. saying this is what happened. The crazy driver who killed people, of course, must be condemned. But the Left is amnesic about the the LW agitators and their direct role. No condemnation of those bad boys. No condemning ANTIFA ever.
Total insanity. A couple of toothless idiots babbling away fueled by some vague partisan hatred. Several years of intense investigation turned up nothing but the revelation that the case against Donald Trump is based on nothing but political avarice. What will they impeach or censure him for? Uncouth behaviour? An offensive hairtyle? Bad Manners? These two have demonstrated far more reprehensible intentions than Trump ever imagined.
I used to read these columns because Gail is really funny. I've stopped reading them because it just turns out to be a conservative writer getting to play the "serious mind" act while Gail laughs off their ridiculously useless "ideas" such as censuring the President (yeah...that will show him), and the Republican blue wall of "nothing to see here"ism, and lets them get away with utter nonsense. Why is it the liberal opinion writer who is always the accommodating joker in this column? I have never had the sense that the Republican writer makes any effort to see things from the other side, or even ask for Gail's opinions. Most times it's Gail asking them for their opinions, allowing them to spout nonsense, and then laughing and moving on to the next topic. This is not a conversation...it's a setup for Republican talking points.
Plus, a Yankees fan hating on the Golden State Warriors is pretty rich.
1
The GOP doesn't have the guts to remove an incompetent president because they sold their souls to their unholy god long ago. There is nothing low enough, that he can do to make them change their minds. What is the excuse of the Democrats? They are a bunch of bumbling buffoons with a lot of infighting over candidates. They are more interested in protecting their idea that the next president should be a woman of color than choosing a candidate who can beat Trump. Even before the election, they have a chance to air all the filthy laundry of out lying, cheating and tax-evading imposter in the White House. They don't have to guts to do that either. Instead, they spent their California meeting attacking the one person who could win the election and spewing anti-semitism. Can't either party have enough decency to do what needs to be done to remove the incompetent president? The US has gone from being respected to being the laughingstock among the nations of the world.
2
Will you please stop trying to push the lie that the “conservative intelligentsia” has made some wholesale surrender to Trump?
I won’t feign surprise at the commenters here who stroke their ids with the laugh line about “it’s an oxymoron,” har har. But you two authors know much, much better.
Sure, the “conservative intelligentsia” has fallen for Trump…
—Except for David French, whose family receives death threats because he opposes Trump
—Except for John Podhoretz, who watched his magazine die rather than bend a knee to Trump
—Except for Jonah Goldberg, whose Trump opposition has attracted anti-Semitic hate mail
—Except for George Will, arguably the dean of conservative commentary, who quit the Republican Party over Trump
—Except for the late Charles Krauthammer, who opposed Trump and wrote that “even bungled collusion is still collusion”
The list is far longer. I suppose you could say your claim is true, just as long as you count out the huge list of people it isn’t true about.
Oh, I forgot:
—Except for Bret Stephens, David Brooks and Ross Douthat, three anti-Trump conservatives whom you missed because they were hiding right here on your own editorial page
You know better. People make mistakes, but this is the eternal lure of “too good to check” – not that you’d really need to check. When you know better it’s not a mistake. It’s a lie.
2
First we need to impeach the cowardly, morally-bankrupt U.S. Senate!
1
Off topic - slightly - it is an insult to all veterans that an imbecile like Trump is representing the US at the DDay commemorations in Normandy.
1
If trump cannot be impeached for his crimes, he will soon be named president-for-life, probably through an executive order at his next inauguration. The dimwitted party is obviously dead and the congress a useless, money-wasting fake.
1
I just can not understand how the Democrats are more worried about 2020 than impeaching the monster in chief. We can not let Trump get away with this, he will cheat with the Russians again and we’ll have him for 4 mo re years!
Impeach! Now!!
1
Never going to happen, keep dreaming dems
Never say never!
It is a true tragedy that in a year in which we celebrate the 75th anniversary of D-Day and the 50th anniversary of the first landing on the moon our president is a vile, despicable, childish, mentally unstable, pathological liar and narcissist who will degrade any ceremony he attends. The only way to honor the men and women involved in these events is to ignore what the president says and does during these days.
2
good lord.
no collusion. a total hoax.
mueller said that trump withheld nothing. zero. he got everything he wanted. every. single. thing.
lemme get this straight---we're gonna impeach him.... for making threats and barking at a witch hunt???
imagine you're falsely accused of being a pedophile. you're gonna stay quiet for two years? that's not a witch hunt?
trump derangement syndrome at full steam....
Constantly attacking our president who has the greatest economy in history and is fighting for America. Democrats want to impeach him for and investigation where we now know he was falsely accused. Amazing. The NY times is complicit in the constant denigration of this great president.
Gail / Brett - We should impeach the entire GOP.
Eliminating one cancer cell does not make one cancer free.
Trump and the GOP have poisoned America.
The “turnover “ at the White House is proof of an unlimited supply of grifters and sociopaths.
1
As your colleague Paul Krugman has pointed out, the proposed Trump tariffs on Mexico are, in fact, out-and-out illegal. (Not that it matters to GOP members of Congress.) But the effect is that the economy is getting less “really good” all the time. For the half or so of the population that has equity holdings of some type (e.g., pension plans), Today’s gains aside (profit-taking happens), the major indices have been declining for weeks, and many are talking about the R-word.
Bret's comment:
"... the Democratic candidate is going to be the underdog in the election, no matter what the polls say right now. Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy and incumbents usually get re-elected. That means the candidate will have to lean strongly to the center to win..."
sounds a lot like "conventional wisdom". And I don't think conventional wisdom exists any more.
1
Hey, as much as I like Oh Canada I do want golden State to win. Of course that's due to being a fan of Dramont Green. OK not enough to actually watch the games. I got baskedballed out with the NCAA tourney. Tho if it would distract me from the idiot being protested in England I just might watch pro BB.
Seriously, Impeachment is a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation. Not sure he's worth all the effort. Let's just be sure we get rid of him in 2020.
1
I keep hearing that "We must build a strong and complete case for impeachment." I have yet to hear exactly what is enough to move forward?
Every day that goes by we see another obstructive act that could yet another nail in the coffin. How many nails does congress need to do the job?
I fear that the longer he is allowed to control this process, the more irreparable damage is done by him and the Republican's.
The truth is a powerful thing. We need leaders with the courage to use it. Take away his constant distortion of the truth that if repeated without responses, is enough to cause people to not believe the evidence. Repeated lies become truth too quickly.... Kill them with hearings before they take hold and force real conflict.
1
The President is guilty of doing business.
This is what he knows, getting his way. Clearly no one is surprised by anything he does or says. How is that impeachable.
I want Trump out of the White House, no question about it. But impeachment is the wrong way to achieve that. An impeachment will drag on forever, probably until the summer of 2020 ; it will divide public opinion in ways I shudder to imagine; and if it happens, it will hand over the presidency to Mike Pence. And a Pence administration is just as bad as a Trump administration: it will mean the same policies with an added dose of religious fanaticism on top of everything else.
There’s only one way to get rid of Trump for good: vote Democratic in 2020.
3
Why do so many believe we have a great economy when income inequality is at an all time high? And why does Stephens give Trump credit?
6
Why does everyone assume that the Senate would refuse to convict ? I believe that if irrefutable evidence is presented at impeachment, they will have too and will be urged to do so by their constituents. All this stalling on bringing charges merely convinces Trumps allies that the case is too week to prosecute. If its that weak, then forget it and move on
2
Sorry Bret, the 'Green New Deal', or whatever label it may get once it takes form with concrete measures, is not just some embarrassing hobby that it may be tactically convenient not to mention, because it may rile up die-hard Trumpists to vote for him (though they cannot be more riled-up than they are).
Climate change mitigation, a clean environment, reducing air, water and soil pollution, and the related improvement of health and quality of life are urgent matters for the benefit of ALL citizens rich or poor, regardless of age or politics.
2
I just can't understand why neither Collins nor Stephens thinks impeachment is a constitutional duty under these circumstances ... and that conviction by the Senate is irrelevant.
On the other hand, I just can't understand why every day's newspaper brings new alleged atrocities by Trump that boil down to nothing more than what an uncouth boor he is.
He's an outrageous president who should be removed from office, but it isn't because he's a headstrong jerk.
If Pelosi cannot articulate a constitutional imperative to impeach Trump, I just don't see how she can be so out of touch with the Constitution, and I suspect that her vote tally in 2020 is the only thing that actually concerns her.
Perhaps that explains how Mueller came up with the bizarre notion that the Constitution required his irrational idea that he could never express an opinion that might constitute a "potential accusation." Both Pelosi and Mueller need a hiding place, I guess.
1
"Next time, let’s discuss whether there’s anybody on the political horizon who could bring us time-of-crisis solidarity without actually requiring the crisis."
Gail, As long as we have an illiterate, vulgar, self-enriching, racist, misogynist mob-family boss in the White House, our closest allies will be in a constant crisis, never knowing what comes next, either by mis-spelled tweet or his big, fat signature on paper.
#45 is a master of distraction from his numerous affronts against democratic norms and decency, his manyfold scandals by just signing another executive order, e.g. hitting Mexica with tariffs because they don't pay for his "beautiful wall', insulting allied leaders, trying to bring NATO and the EU to their knees, etc., etc.
The nightmare will go on far too long. Immediate impeachment, despite the Senate never convicting the con-man, might at least educate a large number of citizens that the president of the United States indeed committed a crime, the crime of obstructing justice numerous times.
1
And, Bret, impeachment is the remedy for a president that rides rough-shod over the Constitution. All your points are facile. The danger is that all following presidents will ignore the Constitution; and one of THEM is libel to be competent, and then you have an authoritarian state. Best to defend the Constitution and forget all the little stuff.
3
More people voted against Trump than for him.
More people dislike Trump now than they did when he was chosen by the Electoral College. There are many who voted for him who now regret their votes.
Trump is more unhinged now than when he took office.
Mueller has handed the country enough to get started with a House Select Committee to investigate wrongdoing by the president and his administration.
The voters need to be continually reminded of all those guilty pleas by high ranking advisers and Cabinet resignations due to improprieties.
What are the Democrats waiting for?
107
@Billy Baynew This isn't about the general population, or even the electoral college (at least not directly). It's about the hundred people in the Senate.
9
@Billy Baynew
I imagine a certain Senator from Kentucky doesn't give a hoot how many people like or dislike Trump. Trump is innocent until McConnell is dead or voted out of office. As of right now, the only challenger is C. Wesley Morgan, state representative from KY district 81. I've never heard of him either.
However, yes, Democrats need to get on with it. Even if the result is acquittal, Democrats earn credibility at McConnell's expense. Just wait to see Republican Senators twist themselves in knots explaining how obstruction of justice is not actually a high crime.
16
@Billy Baynew
Yet, Trump was ELECTED & will be RE-ELECTED. And CNN & MSNBC anchors will cry again.
"... and the economy is really good." The economy maybe really good for Times columnists. For the rest of us, not so much. When will the media stop repeating government propaganda?
2
To that wonderful kid in prep-school maroon jacket... May your generation learn to be free of Trumps, Farages, Boris Johnsons... poking fun at such rude authority is the way to success. Annihilate them in comedy and satire.
2
Gail sez: " . . . and the economy is really good." Oh yeah? Then why am I still broke? After all, Spanky gave a me a tax cut equivalent to an extra Starbucks expresso/week.
2
Another shape-shifting performance by Stephens for these “conversations” with Gail (who buys into his faux moderation every time). Now he can return to his Trump-love column writing.
1
Gail Collins alleges that Trump told White House counsel Don McGahn to lie. Trump actually asked McGahn to deny a New York Times that was headlined "Trump Ordered Mueller Fired, but Backed Off When White House Counsel Threaten to Quit.” The article alleged the president ordered McGahn to fire Special Counsel Robert Muller and had only backed down when McGahn threaten to resign.
The article was inaccurate. According to the Mueller report, McGahn recalled the president told him, “Call Rod [Rosenstein], tell Rod that Mueller has conflicts and can’t be special counsel.” McGahn told Mueller’s investigators that he never threatened to resign but would have resigned rather than make the call.
Trump did not order McGahn to fire Mueller, and McGahn did not threaten to resign.
The Mueller report states, “Because McGahn had spoken to Special Counsel investigators before January 2018, the President could not have been seeking to influence his prior statements in those interviews.” But the report speculates that the president’s effort to get McGahn to dispute the news media accounts may have been been an effort to influence any future statements McGahn might make.
The best evidence is that Trump was simply angry about the inaccuracy of news media reports.
Any sense of shared social and economic goals in America has been set back 40 years by a busnitician who doesn't even pretend to have the country's best interests and highest goals as part of his obviously corrupt agenda.
3
It was very, very, very lame to boo John Hickenlooper.
But I suspect the California crowd had a knee jerk response to the S word, projecting onto the former Governor of Colorado its misplaced ire of the GOP’s definition of socialism as all things evil.
There is an endless trove of material for the Democrats to mine and loop repeatedly against the White House goon squad if they can hire a marketing hack capable of wielding more than just a machete.
Trump has beaten every opponent he ever went up against. And he will likewise defeat the 23 Democrat presidential wannabes who never stop talking about impeaching him. He plays hardball at a different level than these whiners.
What you folks arent getting is there was no underlying crime, and thats why the public isnt behind this. Nixon had an underlying crime. Clinton was caught red handed lying about his shenanigans in the Oval office, although whether that deserved impeachment is arguable.
Wheres the underlying crime? We heard for 2 years that Trump committed treasonous acts by colluding with the Russians to steal the election. We were told by how many Democrats and TV pundits that theres evidence of this. Mueller outlined 10 possible instances where Trump might have maybe obstructed justice, yet he couldnt come up with even one where he might have colluded with the Russians. Not one. So the premise that Trump is this bad guy because he colluded with the Russians was proven blatantly false, know hes a bad guy, that deserves impeachment, because he fought back against this investigation? First it was he colluded! That didnt work. Now its he obstructed!
Dragging this on is only digging yourselves deeper and deeper. Youre actually hurting whomever your candidate will be. Why do you think CNN and MSNBC ratings took a nosedive. Nobody cares anymore. Meanwhile, the rest of us are enjoying this great economy.
15
@NYCSurgical
There is indeed underlying crime in more than one area that any investigation will bear out, along with the "high crimes and misdemeanors" for which impeachment can be brought forward. Some are included in the Mueller report, others are not (e.g., campaign finance violations).
BTW, please drop the term "collusion." Even Mueller would not use that. Have you read the report?
99
@NYCSurgical
The crime is the obstruction. In order for justice to have its due in the face of allegation an investigation is required. Obstructing that investigation is a crime. If congress does not investigate with an impeachment inquiry, then they are guilty of obstruction as well. If that is not the law, then the officers who arrested me for not opening the door and protecting my friend with cognitive challenges from their excessive force and violence need to be arrested for violating my civil rights. Let justice have its due.
54
@NYCSurgical There doesn't need to be an underlying crime to commit impeachable offenses. In fact, there doesn't even need to be crimes committed to commit impeachable offenses, although Trump did commit multiple felonies. It is not illegal to have a private consensual affair...yet it is a lie and obstruction of justice and witness tampering (all of which Trump is accused of by Mueller) which got Bill Clinton impeached, ie: no underlying crime. There does not need to be an underlying crime to commit obstruction of justice....ie: to commit crimes. So you are very wrong. Impeachment is not about committing crimes. Committing crimes just happen to fall under reasons for impeachment. Impeachment is about protecting the country from a president deemed unfit for the position, whether by ethical lapses, such as abuse of power, which is not. crime, or actual crimes.
138
Let's get rid of the labels. Socialism is, essentially, government ownership of all productive property et al. We are not close- and, likely, never will be.
But, we have, since Roosevelt, embraced Government involvement, including some ownership, in business affairs. Has worked- even for this Senator Robert A. Taft lifetime Republican.
The question is not whether. It is how much. The dialogue needs to go on without the epithets.
2
YES. There is nothing to lose but a lazy, lying, entitled, treasonous president.
4
The NRA of old, 50 years ago, was dominated by people that used guns for hunting and sport. Most of the serious hunters I know today are not members. There is not much the NRA offers them that enhances the sport. The NRA seems to function mostly to hold political power and act as cheerleader for enhanced guns sales. To them and many of their followers, a gap in the hand means you got the world by the tail.
We have had 105 mass shootings (defined as 4 or more victims) so far this year. The year so far has had 155 days, counting today. That means the norm in the United States in 2019 is to have a mass shooting.
Together with Trump's cruel and deadly treatment of asylum seekers, his flouting of the laws of the land, the denial of the climate crisis, corruption in government by Trump and his cronies, Trump's approval of dictators, and Republican support of all this and Democratic acquiescence, we are a rapidly sinking ship that will bring much of the world down with us. If we don't start soon to work toward impeaching Trump, it will be way, way too late.
4
"[Trump's] doing incalculable damage to our political culture."
And to many other parts of our culture too. He has incited hatred against immigrants and African Americans, supported white nationalists and denigrated women, Muslims and even Gold Star families. None of this has helped our country; it has only divided it further.
While impeachment is probably not the answer, given the Senate's likely acquittal, it sure would be satisfying. But I'd settle for censure, which the House could easily pass without worrying about the Senate.
1
"They’ve concluded that he’s just the sort of blunt instrument they need to 'own the libs.' And in a way they are right: Trump does make the left go nuts. It’s just that, in the process, he’s doing incalculable damage to our political culture."
Mr. Stephens has it backwards. President Trump makes the left and most sensible Americans go no nuts because he is doing incalculable damage to our political culture. If Mitt Romney were president and enacting Trump's policies the backlash would be nowhere near as severe. Trump earns the backlash by being bigoted, attacking our institutions, lacking basic decency, lying constantly, and dumbing down the national discourse.
As for the economy....Unemployment is low, but wages are stagnant, and a recent Congressional Research Service report concluded that Trump's tax cuts had little effect on the economy save lining the pockets of the wealthy and corporations through stock buybacks. Moreover, rational discussions about budget deficits and the national debt have vanished. The Trump economy is riding a sugar high based on deficit spending when we're near full employment and should be moving toward less spending so we can be ready for the next economic downturn, which inevitably will come.
All this about "socialism" too often leads to confusion unless that term is precisely defined. Programs that have government involvement, such as Medicare, are not, in themselves, "socialism". For example, my wife and I have been on Medicare for some time, and we've yet to visit a doctor that was on the federal payroll or treated at a hospital that was government owned.
The Mueller report flatly states (Volume 2, Page 153) that “the evidence available to us does not establish that the President directed or aided Cohen’s false testimony.”
@William Case Trump states flatly that the investigation exonerated him of any Russian collusion and obstruction.
Some people claim that Barr stated that the investigation found no Russian collusion and no obstruction.
And the entire country is still arguing about the meaning of what Mueller stated.
And now, Pelosi is getting worried that Democrats are so divided over impeachment that she has come up with a claim that she is actually doing the i-word without actually doing impeachment.
Glad we cleared that up.
@Sequel
Barr pointed out that it is not the business of investigators and prosecutors to established anyone innocence. Under U.S. jurisprudence, person is presume innocent until proven guilty.
Democrats and most of the news media alleged Trump committed crimes, but the Justice Department says there in no sufficient evidence crimes were committed. He's entitled to claim exoneration.
Count the silverware at Buckingham Palace. Shouldn't need a special counsel...
2
Ask any self-described “conservative” this one question: What’s the single biggest socialist program in the US? Answer: The US military. The follow-up question is obvious: And, so, how do you feel about “socialism?”
Brett, Yankees/Dodgers World Series? Reminds me of 2017 when NYPD was posting signs around Yankee Stadium warning people about illegal parking during the upcoming World Series, before the Pinstripes were eliminated by Los Astros in the AL final. In other words, ain’t gonna happen. Just thought you all needed a little something to talk about besides Trumpmania.
I was reading this article and it made me think of a conversation I believe on NPR. It was about raising the age of buying tobacco from 18 to 21 and it was a bipartisan bill being supported by Mitch McConnell. Taking on the Tobacco industry because kids were dying. I could not help the oxymoron of the conversation. This was the Senate dealing with gun violence, oh no it was the cigarette industry.
This is how screwed up our politics have become, because of things we cannot touch because they are religious in the minds of some party or senator, but they will turn on the dime if it plays to their base or benefit . Oh America!
1
Everyone assumes the Senate would never convict.
But, what if one of the articles of impeachment were "impugned the dignity of the office of president of the United States"?
Could any senator reasonably deny it?
1
Undermining of our democratic institutions, destruction of our international relationships, destruction of our social fabric and overt appeals to racism and xenophobia, in addition to all of the corruption, do in fact make us "libs" "go nuts." We are willing to fight for the American principles being destroyed.
We are shocked that so-called conservatives aren't willing to fight for them as well. Or at least we would be shocked if we hadn't already concluded that conservatism is little more than a cover for corruption and racism.
(I almost wrote "modern conservatism" but, looking back, it's clear that these elements have always been the bedrock of conservatism, from slavery and the Indian wars to this day.)
The Truth (as I see it at the moment):
1. Trump is guilty as multiple sins and, as such, merits impeachment on legal grounds.
2. Given the obvious, impeachment is also morally justified.
3. Impeachment currently is impossible owing to the Senate Republican "loyalty".
4. Hearings aimed at the broad public, a la Watergate, are necessary for a general and necessary public airing of what is contained in the Mueller Report and elsewhere. Such hearings will largely culminate in(a) an impeachment or (b) the 2020 election, both of which appear to be on about the same schedule.
So, get on with those hearings, and make them dominate the daily news cycle. Truth and the American Way still count.
1
As I walked past the post office & fire station on my way to work the flags were at half staff and I thought the same thing I've been thinking for the past 2-3 years. Why don't we save the work and just leave them at half staff?
1
Trumps failure of leadership by actively thwarting an aggressive response, indeed,any response, to global warming alone should be cause for impeachment. This, according to a very diverse and large group of people, is the primary threat to our well being. Also, that so many of the comments mention the “good economy “ tells me that a lot of people have been taken in by Republican spin. The tax cut favored the already wealthy and will saddle our children and grandchildren with debt and an excuse for the Republicans to claim there is no money to expand desperately needed support for the less fortunate. Generally speaking the economic forces acting on the USA are beyond the control of any given President. However, the development of intelligent and non ideologically based strategies to effectively respond to the economic changes precipitated by those forced is within our competence.
Let’s hope that 2020 proves that the USA can get the leadership it deserves instead of one that is so deficient in almost all regards, especially when it comes to honoring the dignity of the Office of the President.
1
Agreed - that is one of the best transitions ever. :)
Not to be picky, Bret, but it should be noted that Theon Greyjoy redeemed himself by the end of "Game of Thrones". Indeed, he paid the Iron price.
I don't buy into the notion that impeaching Trump will only help him The thinking, I guess, is that the Mueller Report did not do the trick, and Trump would only act as if he's persecuted, again purportedly a positive for him. Therefore, why try?
But if the general public gets to hear the evidence in a clear, consistent manner, unless politicians actually subscribe to the notion that Sean Hannity and his ilk will be able to undermine the veracity of that evidence, why not proceed?
Additionally, I think there is a great deal of evidence that can be laid out in a coherent, easy-to-digest manner than many of the even die hard Trumpers will be taken aback.
But it's not that audience which is the genuine target. It's the independents...a large swath of the electorate, who will be impacted. And gaining a strong foothold into that segment will help in 2020, no matter who the Democrats nominate.
5
I feel the same way the one or two times a week I wobble toward impeachment, but a hard reality pulls me in line again: Obstruction of justice just isn't big enough.
It's like having the option to sue your neighbor for a relatively minor infraction or selling and moving away to a better place. The first option will be far more expensive and you are guaranteed to lose, but it will make you feel better in the short term. With the second you cut your losses but sell at something of a profit, which you can successfully build on down the road.
I agree with Mr. Stephens: Censure Trump and get on with voting him out of office.
1
Yes to Ps and Qs. Let us do the right thing, which is to start an impeachment process. We get all tangled up when we consistently put ends (kicking Trump out in 2020, in this case) over means (attempting to punish wrongdoing). Further, pretending that we know what will happen in 2020 is foolish, particularly given how wrong most of us were in 2016. If politicians do the right thing, the electorate is served.
5
It took Two catastrophic world wars to rid Western Europe of fascism. And yet there are signs of a revival in Italy, France and England, and even Germany. Not to mention eastern Europe which is again flirting with fascism. There was a strong fascist element in the US between WW1 and WW2 featuring Charles Lindberg and Father Coughlin among others. Extreme nationalism, tariffs, white supremacism, anti-immigration policy: they all follow the same script, an eternal return. Except that now, with world population heading toward 9 billion by mid-century, and with global warming breathing down our collective necks, time is not on our side and neither is the Presidency of Donald Trump.
5
I disagree that impeachment will help Trump politically. Those who are going to vote for him will do so regardless; same for those who will vote against him. And regardless of whether the Senate will convict, the message needs to be sent loud and clear that his behavior will absolutely not be tolerated. Waiting for the 2020 election poses risks as well. Should Trump lose he will surely dispute the results and remain in office indefinitely. The case for impeachment is clear.
5
The first step would be to enforce the subpoenas that have been issued. So far the White House has thumbed its nose; it's time to show them that Congress means business. Such disdain for the law cannot stand.
8
Impeachment serves a restorative and didactic function, entirely apart from ridding ourselves of the incumbent President. Few are going to read the Mueller Report, and fewer still will interpret the 'double negatives' reasoning that holds that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice. Robert Mueller's public statement served only to heighten the tension between the rhetoric and the reality when the historical situation demands confrontation and clarity. Requiring Mueller and other witnesses to explain themselves in plain English, one question at a time, and brushing away witnesses' obfuscation and digressions is part of the job that is implicit in the process. On camera and on the record. Think of it as our national grand jury proceeding that needs to be experienced through all of our senses, not simply dry words read from a page. Only then will we fully comprehend the wrongs that have been done to our country and its politics. The Senate may refuse to convict but it cannot rewrite the historical record. We need to do this because it is our honor and patriotism that are at stake; and we need to bear witness to it for the sake of ourselves, regardless of whether Donald J Trump continues to cling to his office.
2
"Impeachment will further polarize the country and consume the country’s attention away from everything else."
Brett, I do not think the first is possible. I agree with you on the second.
I fear there would be weeks, even months, when Trump would take even more of our attention than he already does. But we'd be focused on the evil he's done in the past, and there would hardly be any time to discuss what he's doing right now to destroy civilization. And if he was convicted in the Senate – which would require divine intervention – Mike Pence would get his job.
Now if there was a chance we could kick out both of them, that would be a different story. But we don't need to invest our time in glorious lost causes. To paraphrase General Patton, it's not our job to lose for our country. It's our job to make the other guy lose for his. Particularly if it's Russia.
Here is another approach. Gather as much information as possible in the next year and a half, with the aid of telivised hearings, but wait until after the 2020 election. Make it clear, before the election, that the House intends to impeach Trump, but knows that it would be meaningless with the current Senate. If Trump is reelected but the Dems keep the House and take back the Senate, start impeachment imeadiately. Granted it will seem nakedly political, but that is what it has been for the last two years. If he is reelected it will certainly be by a minority of the voters as he was in 2016. If he is not reelected, indite him.
While one reader correctly notes that a televised impeachment hearing would embarrass the President, perhaps somewhat, it should be obvious to everyone by now that he doesn't embarrass easily. His supporters will see and believe what they wish to see and believe or what he tweets at them and ignore the rest. The Senate won't take up a vote until after the election, at which point it won't matter -- remember the Clinton impeachment -- whether or not Trump is reelected. Also, this isn't your grandfather's Watergate hearing: we all know the basic facts and what happened thanks to the Mueller report. The level of drama will be far lower than it was in 1973-1974. Viewership will wane. The public will tune into their respective cable news shows in the evening. No one will care much about what happens or will even remember why the hearings are being held. Meanwhile, no legislation of significance gets through Congress -- and the Senate will move merrily along confirming Trump's judges -- which is what his presidency is most about.
Gail, when you state that "the economy is really good", it does two things. First it shows how completely it of touch you are. Low unemployment can be a good thing, but it can also mean Americans need multiple crappy jobs to struggle to make rent. Stock markets can soar, but if all that money is going to the already-rich, what good does that do for struggling families? The other thing your comment does is support Trump in 2020. Trump has taken Obama's economy and poured in defecit spending, further imperiling future generations and building an economy based on a house of cards. He deserves no praise or credit, please stop buying into the myth that this miserable failure of a businessman somehow knows what he's doing with our economy.
4
One of the worst things Trump has done is trivialize the office of the Presidency, making many citizens believe that any idiot can be President.
2
"Own the Libs." Think about that phrase for a minute.
2
I've been looking, but haven't seen any substantive info or opinion on how NOT impeaching Trump will accrue to a Democratic victory.
3
Let me say upfront that Trump is not Hitler. I mean no comparison between their belief systems (impossible anyway since Trump doesn't have one) or their personalities.
That said, I would point out that on July 20, 1944 some Good Germans finally got around to trying to assassinate Hitler. They failed and as a result Hitler became even worse.
Any attempt to impeach Trump will fail ignominiously and pointlessly because it cannot be followed up by a successful conviction in the Senate.
In consequence Donald Trump's hand will only be strengthened. The wagons will circle even tighter and Trump's approval rating will probably go above 50%.
Impeachment is beyond dumb, so dumb I don't even think I could discuss it. Thank God for Nancy Palooka. So far she has managed to keep the baby in the White House and the babies in the Democratic caucus in line. But how much longer, who knows?
1
I doubt any Fox News watcher could even define, “socialism.” In spite of that fact, you’d think a fair number of them could at least appreciate the fact that they’re being robbed blind by the same Republican party they support. Am I giving them more credit than they deserve? Maybe a better question is, exactly what *do* they deserve?
2
Impeachment may ultimately work in Trump's favor.
But Congress has to do something about the White House thumbing its nose at Congressional subpoenas.
2
Mr. Stephens accurately points out that the conservative intelligentsia goes along enthusiastically with Mr. Trump because he makes the left go nuts. What he didn’t highlight is why Mr. Trump generates this reaction.
For a long time, the conservative intelligentsia attempted to engage in discourse with the left on issues. The left on the other hand bypassed the issues entirely by calling anyone who questioned them bigots. Conservative leaders like Jeb Bush, John McCain, John Kerry and Mitt Romney appeared backed into a corner when they were unable to debate issues and instead had their viewpoints berated as patriarchal condescension.
Mr. Trump, like the left, doesn’t debate issues. He deflects the discussion through ad hominem attacks against anyone who attacks him. And he has an unerring instinct for name calling. The left’s tried and tested strategy of calling all disagreement bigoted doesn’t work against him. He makes no attempt to defend himself against the charges and instead impugns the individuals leveling them.
The conservative intelligentsia very quickly realized that Mr. Trump largely supports their agenda. And his ability to rile the left has allowed the kooks on the left to unveil their most ridiculous ideas.
Even Ms. Collins, who should know much better, has succumbed to Trumpophobia. Socialism looks good compared to Trumpian capitalism? Really? When the economy is as strong as it is now? Is Ms. Collins trying to get Mr. Trump re-elected?
Bret Stephens: "The surrender of the mainstream Republican Party to Trump will be a matter of political and even psychological analysis for decades to come. _/It is the transformation of a party into a cult./_"
This is the one time I agree with anything Bret Stephens says. I called this one back when Mr. Trump was elected, when I said, "Welcome to the United States of Jonestown." The Republican Party has truly become a cult, and the approximately 38% of America that are Mr. Trump's hardcore supporters, have truly drunk the Kool-Aid.
Gail Collins: "Would you hate it if I said that trivial times breed trivial politics?"
The times ain't trivial. Climate change is certainly not trivial. The concentration of the nation's wealth is not a trivial. The surge of anti-democracy certainly isn't trivial, and may have a common root with Climate Change and the concentration of wealth. Their solution will demand radical change to the way things are done, whether people are willing to admit it or not.
2
@Bret---bad analogy. Unlike football, impeachment is hardly a "dumb and dangerous game." After all, it's not overthrow, coup, revolution or assassination. It's a non violent, lawful step by step procedure well thought out before hand, debated and deliberated, with protections and rules. Ok?
But it still is a dilemma for many.
Shakespeare's famous Hamlet soliloquy might suggest a script for Pelosi and all undecideds:
To Impeach or not to Impeach, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous politics,
Or to take arms against our sea of troubles
And by opposing (impeaching) end them.
Or ...rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Aye, there's the rub!
(Others that we know not of----or that we fear, like losing the 2020 election to Trump!)
1
I don't know who you guys think the economy is good for but it isn't the average Joe. It might be great for people making 10.00 an hour but it's not so hot for the rest of us. And no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it so...
2
"Is there some formula where people actually start to notice the cumulative cost? Or are we doomed to live with this?"
Yes, the formula is to vote for the candidate most likely to make an impact on that. That is not, will not, cannot, won't be, can't be, hasn't been, won't ever be, don't hold your breath for.....a republican.
The rest of that discussion on how/why is just talking your way to the next massacre.
If it's the economy stupid, then it's certainly the Guns.....stupid.
2
What Democrats need is a way to remove Trump from office in 2020. He will never be impeached, and if McConnell can figure a way to keep the matter out of the Senate entirely he will do it. Impeachment hearings might or might not help the election chances of a Democratic candidate but what will not help is foolish Democrats sitting out the election because they think their favorite was jilted by the DNC or some other elite or establishment organization.
2
You know, this could all be fixed in a minute if the Millennials and Generation Z would just get out and vote. I know it has always been hard to get the young to cast votes, but once you get past the notion that any politician/candidate will ever be perfect, you have to start to triangulate about what and whom most moves your interests in life forward. Together they are a big enough group, who if they more thoroughly participated in elections, would automatically cause a big impact on the outcome.
4
@Richard
Many young adults can't imagine living in a country without access to safe, legal abortion. They don't see what the big deal is about gay marriage and people with brown skin. They care about the environment and the future of the planet. It should be easy to get them to the polls! Maybe throwing in a reminder that RBG can't serve forever would help a bit.
2
If Trump is not a crisis, we need a new definition of crisis.
8
I've noticed that most of the people who are calling for impeachment don't say a thing about what should happen after impeachment, after his acquittal, when he's still POtuS and running for re-election? To me, the most important thing is getting rid of him. Democrats have a way to get rid of him and it's not through impeachment, as long as Republican senators care more about their jobs than protecting our country. If Democrats get smart and nominate a centrist who can gather the widest anti-Trump coalition they have a chance. Impeachers may win the battle but they will lose the war. I hope they realize 4 more years under this corrupt administration would be catastrophic.
4
Editor's note - Both Theon and Ramsey ultimately did lose, Brett. So there is hope, even in Dystopia!
2
We need an impeachment inquiry. It needs to educate the American people about trump, Barr, and the White House administration regarding collusion with Russia and the follow-up obstruction. Add to that the violation of the emoluments clause. We need to investigate the financial interests of this president and hold him accountable. It's not going to be done the Mueller did it with silence. It needs to be on television, broadcast live so that trump can't dominate the news.
5
When will we stop saying the economy is great?
It has all the markings, technical and lifestyle, to warn us that we are sliding into a recession.
But more important, and totally ignored by citizens and unforgivably by the press, is the fact that many people are working jobs with no healthcare, no pension - and often must hold two jobs to get enough to pay for their living expenses. This is why the jobs are filled and why the economy looks artificially good.
When you read about Google, Facebook and Apple hiring 50% Part Time "contractors" to avoid these obligations, or the JP Morgan employee who can't make ends meet on her paycheck, while Jamie Dimon claims he had no idea - this is unconscionable and a keg of dynamite about to explode.
Tell me again, how great is that economy and how this benefits all of us?
Young people look to a future where they won't earn what their parents have earned, and will inherit a planet decimated by Republicans who are systematically destroying the air, water and food we eat.
The Dow Jones is not a barometer and shame on the media for using trump's favorite "gauge". It impacts less than 10% of Americans - yet even that is now showing signs of weakness.
By no measure can these trump tortuous years ever be deemed a success.
This "greatest economy ever" is failing its citizens.
8
Good conversation.
I lean towards impeachment because I feel that the first ammendment is being trivialized. I think a lot of people have shut up, feeling afraid that the first ammendment is not valid anymore.
People reflexivly fall in line with these things. Especially those who work the hardest in the lowest paying jobs.
I often criticize the NYT for its unbridaled support for unfettered 'free trade'. Something has invested the minds of those running this newspaper. Nevertheless, this newspaper remains the beacon of hope for democracy and the Bill of Rights.
If we didn't have the NYT, I think democracy would have fallen in 2007.
Are Nixon and Trump comparable? Not in my view. It was ok to threaten Nixon with post-office prison. His only allies were political. Trump is a different beast. Threaten him with post-office prison and he's likely to use the force of foreign dictators and wealth.
I think we should hit him now. I disagree with the political analysis. This needs to be handled carefully. It needs to be approached knowing that conviction will not happen, and only as an expose of the situation.
5
Here's something to ponder. I've heard that if anyone in the White House utters the word "impeachment" anywhere near Trump is in for a invective fire storm so huge and so filled with bad words that would make a sailor blush. Should the House begin Impeachment proceedings it will surely give Trump many sleepless nights or days or whatever time he sleeps. When the news media is talking incessantly about the I word, he will not be able to tolerate it.
His abuses of power will no doubt increase thus proving the point. Face it. The man can't handle criticism small or large.
I predict that when the American people are able see what is actually in the Mueller Report and understand it, to hear voices that know this man for what he is and to finally to see Trump for the false god he is, he will either be forced to resign or will, with the help of the Republican Party, recognize he cannot win in 2020 and so will withdraw from the race.
We can hope. The biggest glitch is that is he leaves the White House he will have to face the treat of several law suits from State Courts something he would rather avoid by hanging from the Truman Balcony by his fingernails.
I fail to see how Grifter Trump can come out ahead.
4
Why impeach? You may disagree, but Trump did nothing outside the Constitution. Stop being so myopic. We survived (barely) the “O” as in “o my god” years. Trump is working as he sees it to help America. Love and tolerance.
@Pilot
Love and tolerance? From a man who regularly name-calls anybody who even looks at him the wrong way? A man more thin-skinned and petulant than a four-year old being denied candy at the supermarket checkout? A man who brags about sexually assaulting women? A man who openly admires despots?
He attempted to shut down an legal inquiry. It's called obstruction of justice. That is a crime.
3
Very grouchy that Gail could so easily discard Climate Change as an issue that should be uniting us. She should be asking why isn't it uniting us as previous calamities/disasters/threats/challenges have?
1
trumpian Economics was all about fiscal stimulus. Tax cuts with spending increase. Sure the markets love it....unitel they don't as the Government debt crowds out the private markets and we are left for paying the national debt/entitlements. Watch how quickly the Dollar declines and our bonds move up the risk category.
2
Yes impeachment will allow Drama Queen Trump to rant and rave on twitter and rallies driving his rabid followers into a frenzy to save their hero/villain. Censure may call attention to his horrendous behavior as president at least to independents that will decide the 2020 election. Time for Drama by the Dems ,have Stormy Daniels do a reading of the Mueller Report part two on TV ,produce a film and play about Trump's corruption . Dems need to do whatever it takes to keep Trump from destroying our democracy and allowing Barr to install TRump as our dictator.
2
I don’t fantasize about impeachment
I fantasize about prosecution
6
That this country finds itself in the precarious situation of whether or not to impeach President Trump, the question most important is what is best for preserving our democracy, what is in the best interests of our citizens, our allies, our morals and expectations for the life that this country promises us. Degradation and name-calling of anyone who comes under the radar of Donald Trump, who displeases him for petty reasons is not the behavior we expect from our leaders, and it's humiliating and embarrassing. It's time for politics to take a backseat and commonsense to prevail .
4
If People see Trump's character defects front and center in the Senate all at once, rather than daily where he can lie and obfuscate with his enablers (including Pelosi), they may take notice.
It will put Republicans on the spot and in the spotlight - they hate that. Let them defend their (and Trump's) wrongdoing out loud. Let the reporters ask specific questions providing ammo for a Primary challenge or for a Democrat.
Or for a Democrat takeover of the Senate in 2020. The approval rating of Congress is only 20% (Pelosi is pushing to zero by her block of the People's will). Congress needs targeting and impeachment will soften it up.
With their feet to the fire the Republicans might vote to impeach. But the actual impeachment vote does not matter. Whatever happens, the impeachment process will hurt the Republicans while helping Democrats and Progressives.
(Might bring the Progressives and Moderate Democrats together)
As for ginning up the Trumpsters, so what? Trump's Turnout is already at 100%. Trump can only go down. Impeachment is a net negative for Trump.
2
The loaded question not posed by Gail Collins to Bret Stephens: "Bret, if you thought the Senate would, in fact, vote to convict Trump, would you and like-minded Republicans no longer consider impeachment a dumb and dangerous game?" Because if you can't foresee a political win you should give up, even when all esteemed values are being crushed? The GOP has shrugged their shoulders and looked the other way, choosing to ignore the laws and protocols broken by this President and this administration - the self enrichment within the Cabinet alone is repugnant. To censure him, Stephens, would be nothing more than wagging a parental finger at Trump, "...you naughty boy...", and yet allow him continued access to his toys. The smirk in his Twitter feed the day following would be palpable. A stand must be taken as it was in 1974. The stakes are far higher.
5
The destruction of the Republican party and the moral high ground of politicians is reason enough to impeach Trump, not to get rid of him but rather to send a message to all politicians and the world that an immoral President is not acceptable. We cannot be led by someone with no morals and simultaneously expect the remainder of the world to follow.
Further, it is clear Russia interfered with our election. If we don't care, than what do we stand for? Some kind of sanctions must be imposed on Russia. The problem was greatly exasperated with gerrymandering and passage of Citizens United. Our democracy was seriously damaged by these events and must be repealed. ... http://lstrn.us/2vIPEZW
5
Is this the NYT's version of the old CNN Crossfire?
It's sickening the decades long demonizing of the term socialism, when in this country so much of our daily life depends on it to function. Why is the fact of billions and billions of subsidies toward corporations and the wealthy through direct payments and tax benefits not discussed? Sleazy corporate welfare.
Where is Jon Stewart when we really need him?
4
This is a transcript of a recently overheard conversation:
"Hi, Shel. Impeachment. What a bunch of losers. No, don't call me by my name, let's just use Individual One."
"Sure, er, Individual One."
"Now listen good, Shel, and you didn't hear it from me, but that loser Bezos has it coming with that Washington Post rag. Sell Amazon. You'll thank me for it later."
"Great. I guessed that was what Jared wanted to see me about."
"Not Jared. Use J."
"Sure. And shall I let Charles and David in on it? That'd make the stock drop even sharper."
"No need. I already did."
Whoever’s doing the slouching, impeachment is indeed a “rough beast.” But if set up right, so that the principled, dignified Mueller won’t have to endure the repulsive rapid fire tirades of Jim Jordan, with its multiple barbaric uses of “Democrat Party,” it could be an instructive moment for the American citizenry. The Democrats must insist that the questioning be conducted BY COUNSEL, like it was in the Kavanaugh hearing.
Besides this, let us wonder why Barr is in such (fake) high dudgeon about Mueller’s failure to charge or exonerate. If he wants this result, he could merely order Mueller, his subordinate, to complete his report! If the press does not start repeatedly calling Barr on this, it’s not doing it’s job.
Finally, why can’t we merely translate Mueller-speak to demotic English as thus: “People, you’ve not read the report. My report (hint hint) gives you everything you need to begin hearings. Just because you can’t understand the use of the double negative in such delicate situations should not mean that you shouldn’t try. It’s just another form of English. Give it a try.”
1
Impeachment: Trump would plead insanity – a perfect defense.
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 37 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President - Updated and Expanded with New Essays by Bandy X. Lee , Robert Jay Lifton, et al. Mar 19,20
What would be worse? A lying, ignorant, arrogant, narcissistic President Trump? Or a dumb, narrow, lying, religious crackpot, but more electable President Pence? Call out Trump, but don’t impeach!
1
With the GOP more interested in Party over Country - Impeachment will not happen - UNLESS some in the GOP realize and take action against this Dumber than Dumb Nit Wit who continues to strive to keep HIS name alive and 'well'.
2
Only fools contemplate an action that inevitably will result in failure. Such is any attempt to remove President Trump by Impeachment.
2
I can barely bring myself to read the news anymore, given the daily barrage of mendacity emanating from Wokesterdom.
From the endless hysteria, ad nauseam, over Donald Trump...to the politically-motivated obstructionism and cheerleading on behalf of the tens of thousands of foreign migrants illegally stampeding across our southern border month after month (we now have over 20 MILLION residing in our country while we passively play host, patron, welfare and healthcare provider to them and their offspring)....
Advancing the interests of illegal aliens over the best interests of American citizens in our own country? Really? The hypocrisy is absolutely staggering!
The faction formerly known as the ‘Democratic Party’ has lost all credibility, and they’re trying very hard to lose my vote. They should stop trying...because they’ve already lost it.
2
@Michal
Who will you vote for, then? Trump? An Independent, which is just another way of electing Trump?
1
@Michal
Many "illegal aliens" (aside: remember, not too long ago, when it was considered offensive to use the term "alien") are actually seeking legal asylum, but our government no longer cares about the "tired," "poor," or "huddled masses." I don't know about you all, but that's how my grandparents got here...
2
After 45 years subscribing to this paper, I've learned at least to not read these little duets where one establishment hack dilutes the other and I am supposed to think it's double good when it's just double weak.
2
Start with Barr is my hope.
2
The world should know that American Democrats are no challenge to the Far Right in America. The Far Right is hateful and intolerant - just like every Republican. Pay attention to what they do, what they ignore and what they don't do. Then you will find that Republicans are anti-democracy and pro autocracy - and they use Far Right to get there because most Americans are so ignorant they have no concept - just like was done in Germany in the 30's. Use fear and hate to justify evil.
1
Slouching Toward Impeachment? And the content was where?
How about calling it Two Pals Get Together and Wander Through a Bunch of Disjointed Thoughts?
2
It never ceases to amaze me how Democrats prefer to be right and righteous, rather than win.
Take a lesson from the GOP on that issue.
Most of these comments are laughable — people splitting hairs on the correct definition of socialism, vowing to impeach with no chance whatsoever of conviction, preaching to mid-westerners that they’ve been hurt by the economy even though they still support him (which is the same as saying, “you folks are just stupid”).
I’m a member of the Democratic Party, and I know we’re going to lose 2020. Perhaps Biden can convince the purple states that the left-wing isn’t completely hysterical. Perhaps not. Bernie will never be president. You’d all feel better if you were able to digest that fact.
1
So the Democrats impeach and fail; which supposedly bolsters Trump's reelection. Well, Trump ain't Clinton - who lied about a dalliance with a 25 year-old woman - and easily won reelection. He's Trump - with all the attendant negative promises of further national discord, upheaval, angst, stupidity and well..... insanity. No matter how disgruntled more socialist-leaning Democrats may be if a more centrist candidate wins the nomination, they will still flock to the polls - even if holding their noses - to vote for against this so-called president because, well...... he's Trump.
2
Hey - Theon Grayjoy thoroughly and completely redeemed himself. He does not belong on that list of neer-do-wells, Ross.
Americans prefer Trump over any Democrat (liberal, progressive and socialist). Impeachment, not gonna happen..unless
Democrat centrists wrest control from the wing-nut fringe of socialists who have hijacked the party. I'm a party official here, and the socialist-progressives have hunkered down: insuring a Trump re-election.
1
Impeaching Trump is political suicide but legally and morally obligatory.
82
@Ps and Qsj There are times in life when you have to do something that might harm you but you know it is the right thing to do. For Nancy Pelosi and the Dems, this is one of those times.
12
@Ps and Qs
Therefore, according to your logic, it is morally obligatory to commit "political suicide" and help Trump win re-election. That would be immoral to me.
16
@Ps and Qs Not if it will cost us the election. We have to win and impeaching Trump will only help his relection campaign. I agree with Bret. No impeachment.
9
Enough with the political calculus! If a President commits acts that are clearly covered under the umbrella of "high crimes and misdemeanors", and possibly even worse, then he MUST be impeached! Whether the cowardly Republicans in the Senate finally live up to their sworn oaths to defend the United States from enemies both foreign and domestic should not be the determining factor. Nor should how it plays out in the political arena, This transcends politics, it's about our democracy and the rule of law. If Nancy Pelosi cannot see this, then she is unfit to hold office, let alone be Speaker.
The American people are sick of the lawerly debating! There is indisputable evidence that shows Trump is guilty of obstruction at the least, and possibly collaborating - either personally or through intermediaries - with our enemy to engage in cyber warfare in us. The only reason that more proof of these actions hasn't been revealed is because of obstruction by Trump. The impeachment process is the only possible means by which the American people might finally see the extent of his crimes. And as a result of that process, it's possible that newly revealed information will finally spur Republicans to do their duty, and he might yet be removed from the office he is unfit to hold.
Quit the dissembling and impeach!
6
There will be no impeachment because the President has done nothing wrong. We are anxiously awaiting the Inspector General's report on the Meuller investigation...
2
Impeachment? I prefer a Bill of Attainder, which of course is unconstitutional. But we could change this prohibition in the constitution. Bills of Attainder were common in English history, as was rape, murder, beheadings, and all the rest. Let's give it a try and forget about Impeachment.
A great discussion.
The Republican Party was founded because the Whigs were soft on slavery.
Maybe it’s time that a new, thoughtful party should be founded to replace a Republican Party that has become soft on the separation of powers called for in the Constitution.
1
Last year, in an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote, Democrats and Republicans joined hands to pass a bill that flushed the last bits of an already tepid Dodd-Frank down the loo. That is what’s really happening in this country. All this “impeachment” and “crisis in the Republic nonsense” is just kabuki. Just like the idiotic Benghazi hearings, like the ridiculous Clinton impeachment, it is meant to enrage voters and keep them looking at something other than what is really happening.
4
Remember how great the economy was in the Fall of 2008? Then one day it wasn't. We are headed into a recession with no tools available to deal with it and an ignorant, lying vulgarian in the Oval Office.
9
Some evangelical Christians have declared that Trump has been sent here as "God's instrument." If you actually read the Bible, God occasionally sends a bad king to punish Israel for it's sins. If the evangelicals are right, I'm afraid God has it in for America.
3
@Martha Shelley
Yes. What if it is God's plan to wipe America off the face of the Earth? Could he/she/it have sent a more effective instrument of doom? I think not.
1
Impeachment for what? The Mueller report clearly says there was no conspiracy or cooperation. The only candidate who used Russian sources in the campaign was HRC (Steele dossier). The president who failed to defend us against Russia in 2016 was --- Obama.
The dems get sillier by the moment. Go ahead and impeach. You'll never retain the house or win the WH. Impeachment for pure political theater is simply a recipe for disaster for dems. Grow up. The 2016 election is over. Trump won. You lost. Quit whining.
And see if you could make any of those obstruction charges stick in court.
2
If we do not impeach someone this blatant criminal, this in our face breaking the law and violating the Constitution, these grotesque abuses of power, lying to the American public, then our Constitutional system of government has no meaning.
4
Bret,
Socialism is what we practice within each of our families. Democratic socialism is for We The People.
Unregulated capitalism is what “conservative” Republicans seem to be after. I’ve got mine, too bad about you, you are not my problem, keep your hands off “my” well deserved earnings.
3
It is unfortunate that there are enough Americans who refuse to open the eyes, ears and minds. trump is so obviously unfit for office. He has so obviously failed to uphold his oath of office. Yet his supporters, especially the republicans in the Senate keep their heads in the sand. It seems so hard to ignore this train wreck and yet the McConnell crowd works at it to the exclusion of everything else. The need for trump’s impeachment and conviction is out here in plain sight to anyone with a heart, a soul, a brain. What drug has gotten into the Republican water supply that makes them so willing to support the unsupportable?8
4
Bret; how about rethinking this one?
..."Bret: Well, how else am I supposed to play at being James Bond if not with a wide selection of silencers to choose from? "...
1
Much better than a toothless impeachment will be a media campaign by Democrats contrasting themselves from the Republicans in terms of bread and butter issues. To wit...
The houses they live in
The cars they drive
The restaurants where they eat
The clothes they wear
The jewelry they flash
The neighborhoods they live in
The vacations they take
The stores they shop in
The sports they play
The maids they have
The air they breathe
2
Trump should be impeached because it is the right and courageous thing to do. Then the onus will be on the Republican controlled Senate to show how much they really care about the constitution and the rule of law. It will be very revealing of their corruption, moral depravity,and hypocrisy.
2
Yeah, America needs to follow the obligations specified in the Constitution.
Our nation has elected an alarming number of Republican light weights like Senator McConnell, and congressmen Nunez and Ryan,
men who were warned by the Obama Administration, and chose to turn a blind eye to a ruthless hostile foreign enemy, who would kill former Russian defectors in England with nerve gas poisoning.
and now the current invalid republican president's minions whine that Obama did not do enough against the Russians.
Face it, a vote for a republican official is a vote for Vladimir Putin.
America needs to hold a flawed thug accountable for betraying our nation,
only for the sake of holding onto power.
2
Stephens is so wrong on the Green New Deal, whether you call it Socialism or just more Capitalism, one can only imagine that he is a lackey for the fossil fuel industry. If he's making the point that the electorate won't buy it, just look at what we have now because the electorate wouldn't buy Hillary. Elections are the time to sell major policy changes, and the Green New Deal is now 25 years overdue, since G.H. Bush shot it down. The ESA, the last time a really rational assessment was made for an Environmental policy, passed almost unanimously, and that can happen again. The underlying knowledge needs to become commonplace, and during an election is a time to do it. And if get-out-the-vote depends on young voters, the Democrats need this to win. It is the one policy that will turn red states blue.
1
Nancy Pelosi wants to come of as bright and cagey on this question. In fact to the Democratic voters she's coming off as spineless and toothless.
32
Democratic voters should be pursuing data, not drama, in their decision making and calls for impeachment.
This is not an endorsement for the current administration, it is a call to action for all voters to take a more evidence based approach to assessing what is being reported.
Pelosi is a brilliant strategist - let her do her job. She is in the best position to assess the best actions and timing.
27
@Bill I disagree. I agree with Bret on this one, and I'm a Democrat from San Francisco, one of the most liberal cities in the world.
8
@Bill
Not to this Democratic voter, she isn’t. She knows that Job 1 is to beat Trump in 2020.
15
Like Gail, "I’m old enough to remember the antiwar/student power/black power era of the ’60s and ’70s, when the left was way more radical, and the rhetoric was even more over the top than it is now."
Another contemporary and I were just discussing those same phenomena after reading "The Most Dangerous Man in America: Timothy Leary, Richard Nixon and the Hunt for the Fugitive King of LSD" by Bill Minutaglio and Steven L. Davis. This non-fiction thriller describes how the Weather Underground helped Leary escape prison go into exile with the Black Panther leadership in Algiers, among other escapades, but also touches on the vast wave of bombings, shootings, robberies, etc. that occurred during the Nixon era.
History may not repeat itself, but as Mark Twain probably didn't say, sometimes it rhymes.
1
Impeach already! At least it would show someone is willing to call out the corrupt actions of the president (at least those actions while in office) and that the public expects accountability from it's elected leader.
There is no way anything, including impeachment ,could increase the division in our country.
There is no way impeachment could make the Trump supporters any more angry, they are ,and are always, angry.
We must stop worrying an bout politics and do what bis the correct thing to do-stop a President who is breaking all the laws and at the same time undermining our democracy. Because Repubs are willing to give up democracy for ideology does not mean we dems should.
Let ti impeachment start and go on and on with the crimes shown each day so the world sees what has happened. Let the Repubs try to explain their positions.
Rise above political considerations, follow the constitution every one praises.
I get ill every time someone points to the economy as favouring Trump. Not because I think they’re wrong but because the reality is that the economy lags politics by an election cycle. Trump is benefiting from the massive Keynesian stimulus Obama directed. When we see the harm Trump’s policies have done it will be in the lap of his replacement.
And as an aside, the US would be much better off if they didn’t have this bogeyman reaction to the dreaded S-word, SOCIALISM. Socialism is just what civilizations do when they’ve achieved a high degree of stability and wealth. They make sure the wealth is shared because they realize it makes for a much fairer and therefore stable society in the long run. You know, there is a point at which being richer doesn’t confer any additional benefits and only causes harm to those who have not. And every time throughout history a large enough number of people have fallen into the category of “have-not”, the outcome has been radical, revolutionary and bloody.
4
If you are ok with him being a liar, crook and ethically challenged then think of it this way - Lives are being lost and more lives are at risk every day Trump remains in office. From immigrants to woman's health, to white nationalism, to climate change denial and rolling back anti-pollution standards, lives are at greater risk then ever and I haven't mentioned the potential for more wars.
Regardless of the outcome, it is the duty of congress to impeach this president and show the world and similar greedy dictators that the US has checks and balances against wannabe kings along with a commitment to democratic law.
3
We must impeach Trump as it is the congress’s. responsibility as to delineated in the constitution, clause number one. We cannot allow such behavior to go unchecked. This is not just for our present time but for the future.
1
Climate change is a crisis. We don't need to invent another.
1
@R. T. Keeney
The problem is that far too many people deny it. You need a critical mass among the population to insist on a strategy, and you aren't there. I'm not sure any country really is, but the US is going backwards at an alarming rate.
I think it is important to undergo an impeachment investigation, if not an investigation itself. There is this wonderful little legal term known as “discovery” which will, hopefully, enlighten the people as to the criminal doings of the occupant of the WH, without appearing to be seeking to unseat him in a “coup.” This is important bc RW media listeners are being groomed to believe all inquiries into trump are illegal (as opposed to the very legal, 7-year fishing expedition of Ken Starr into WJC and HRC). trump humself has openly appealed to “second amendment people” to rally should he ever suffer a defeat at the ballot box, and the radio broadcasters are keeping them stoked in case of impeachment or election defeat. Ideally for trump, it would be a thousand charlottesvilles across the country.
1
Fuhgeddabotit. The Dems should go out and find their best candidate and beat him at the ballot box. It's too late in the day to bring impeachment proceedings. The Senate will never convict. Trump will play the victim, and his base will turn out in force to support him. And, if one reads Michael Beschloss's recent book "Presidents of War," it's clear that Trump isn't either the dumbest or worst president we've ever had and who should have been impeached but were not.
If Trump is still in office in November 2020, then Putin will again decide who the president of the USA will be. The only way that the Democrats could remove Trump from office would if he blatantly defies a Supreme court ruling regarding documents or allowing testimony. That could cause some Republican senators such as Grassley or Romney to actually call for Trump's removal. Thus, the Democrats best hope would be to hold off on enacting any articles of impeachment until the court battles are over. Just proving collusion and obstruction of justice won't sway any Republican senators.
Whatever evidence and proof of criminal acts that Mueller could have come up with, it is certain that such evidence and proof could not be as powerful an indication of wrongdoing as the evidence in the public record that Bret Kavanaugh was lying in the senate hearings relating to his confirmation as a Supreme Court Justice.
Once Ford’s account included three people she said were there AND his calendar had them all at Tim Gaudette’s house on July 1, 1982, AND Ford’s description of the interior of Gaudette’s house in Rockville, MD exactly matches that of the actual house, which still exists: the only way that Kavanaugh was not lying is either: Ford somehow obtained access to his 1982 diary/calendar, or Ford has a time machine or Ford stalked Kavanaugh in 1982 and planned for this if he was nominated to the Supreme Court..."
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4216597
1
“Bret: That means the candidate will have to lean strongly to the center to win.“
Trump’s base, the vast majority of voters to the right of center, is unshakeable and not worth chasing. We need a Democratic candidate that leans strongly to the center of the Democratic base. One who can capture the majority of what’s left of the voting pool.
Biden, clearly the closest to the center, is a very poor choice for many Democrats, most of whom are more progressive. I consider myself in the center of the left and I won’t vote for him.
We have such wonderful candidates nears the center of blue - Elizabeth Warren will likely get my vote. Pete Buttigieg is so likeable and quick, he would make a wonderful VP.
The repeated calls for a candidate that leans “close to center” ignore the actual availability of the voter pool. Most of the votes to the right are taken and not for sale. We need a candidate that lies in the center of the available voter pool. A Democrat, somewhere between Biden and Bernie, would have the best chance of winning the election
1
Bret, the "real purpose of impeachment" is not to censure the President for bad behavior. Its purpose is to charge him with high crimes and misdemeanors that make him unfit to remain in office as President. I can't think of anything more ineffective, especially when dealing with a character like Trump, than passing a motion of censure, which he would laugh off and wave in front of his supporters as a great example of how thoroughly he has cowed his detractors. A prediction that the Senate would not convict, even if correct, is not sufficient reason to hold back. It's clear that we need the impeachment process to make people understand his transgressions, which people who only know the Barr interpretation of the Mueller report don't bother to wonder about. And if, in the face of all the evidence, the Senate does not convict, let that be the record of the Senators to explain to voters why they should be re-elected. Finally, let's not forget how Nixon's supporters abandoned ship when the public became really aware of the magnitude of his impeachable offenses.
1
Here's an idea. Impeach him in the House and then don't sent the impeachment to the senate until after the 2020 election. If Trump is defeated in 2020, the House can just drop the impeachment. If Trump wins and the Senate flips then the House can send the impeachment to the senate with some hope that it will be upheld. If Trump wins and the Senate doesn't flip then the House can send the impeachment forward with the knowledge that the Senate Republicans will be forced to defend him.
The country needs a trial for all to see the evidence and hear the legal arguments. Whether it’s an impeachment trial, federal trial, or State of New York trial, the country needs unfiltered exposure for all to see. Even if it’s just sound bites, it will be in a court of law. It’s the only way to resolve why half of the country believes high crimes and misdemeanors have been committed. Otherwise, the partisan bickering will continue and not resolve anything.
3
Gail's point about social media is on target, but let's not forget the conventional media power that Fox has been wielding--and abusing--for years now. When a large media company becomes a state mouthpiece, democracy is in trouble.
2
I am SO tired of hearing the economy is great. For what percentage of the American people has personal income increased? Maybe (at most) 20 percent? Surely it would be possible to calculate this. I wish someone would...
4
Trump should be impeached over his twitter comments on specific US entities, like Amazon and Google, which caused their stocks to fall several times. Real Americans hold stocks in these corporations and deserve the same freedom as anyone else to invest in these markets. His political opinions should not be allowed to drive the stocks. If the House does not act on this behavior to discourage it in the future, they might as well be endorsing it.
7
I favor censure for now. Put the Republicans on record for condemning Trump's moral behavior or not. Get it in the record that his behavior is unacceptable. That doesn't take impeachment off the table, should events get Republicans ready to join Democrats in pursuing that goal.
Those who choose to believe Trump is plenty okay will tune hearings out and rise to his defense, showing up at the polls and putting energy into defending their cult leader.
Just now, as the stock market continues to go down and Trump doubles down on his threat to impose crippling tariffs on Mexico, Republicans are reported to be considering legislation to prevent that. I think they're realizing he's uncontrollable and capable of doing damage to the Republican rich people and those who shop at the Dollar Store.
Doing nothing says to future presidents that they can obstruct justice and show a disregard for the laws of the land with impunity. Impeachment will likely end badly. Censure. Now.
4
Trump is simply generating increasingly worse behaviour so that the Republicans can defend taking action to secure the base and suggest that they are taking back their constitutional responsibilities, not because Trump isn’t doing an excellent job of doing what he was primed and selected to do for the G.O.P.
Remember the letter that the NYT printed (good grief) from “inside the White House” that said concerned Americans shouldn’t worry, experienced bureaucrats were still the grown ups in the room and were thwarting Trump’s worst tendencies and actions? Similar strategy to calm the shock and suggest that democracy was still well in hand despite all evidence to the contrary.
Trump’s current behaviour is veering off the charts to allow the Reps to take action to ‘curb his behaviour’ and thus, look like they are taking appropriate action to curb his power. This is incredibly skillful politicking. Nothing more.
How did Gail miss this: "Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy and incumbents usually get re-elected." I disagree with the first part of this statement. Can Bret please explain how Trump has produced a strong economy? That's kind of a generalization, isn't it? What are the statistics to prove it?
2
Let's stop using the word "socialism." Instead, let's use the term "Progressive Capitalist." It's a much more accurate term for what we want to accomplish, and it's less fraught with negative associations.
3
Welcome to Double Jeopardy. The categories today include;
Im-peach: Here the answers will include the name of a fruit.
Im-pish: Here the answers will keep the letters "Imp" and leave out the word "each" and replace it with "ish" as in Republican Senators that "wish" they didn't have to kiss Trumps behind. Or why the Trump presidency smells like dead "fish".
Imperial: In this category, "ach" as in ach, I can't believe Trump is our president, is replaced by more rial.
Imperfect: This category will focus on why Trump thinks to himself "I'm perfect".
And lastly,
Imp each: Her each question will require the inclusion of a consonant in front of the letters "imp". For example: Chimp or Limp.
2
President Trump is the crisis that should pull us all together, but he has managed to glom onto the fears and prejudices of a segment of the population (mostly in overrepresented rural districts) and claims to have adopted their concerns as his own, which includes not caring about anybody else despite their endless paeons to Jesus. it's cathartic, perhaps, to call for impeachment, but how many Americans understand that what we need is to get rid of him, which would call for conviction in the Senate? censure, weak tea though it is, is not a guaranteed failure as impeachment AND conviction would be.
Donald Trump did not turn the Republican Party into a cult. The Republican Party has long been a cult. In Donald Trump, it simply found a particularly noxious figurehead for its long-entrenched, unyielding malevolence.
After Trump has exited the stage the political malignancy he represents will continue unabated, finding a new and possibly worse charlatan to replace him.
Hello Stephen Miller?
4
Trump should definitely be impeached regardless of the odds that the Senate will convict him. In addition to all the criminal charges usually mentioned:
Obstruction of justice
Violating the emoluments clause
Etc. Etc.
They should add two reasons often mentioned in the media, but rarely as impeachable offenses:
Mental illness
Incompetence
These are not high crimes but isn't the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" phrased as such to give Congress the widest possible latitude when deciding if a president needed to be removed from office? If presidents like Washington, Jefferson and Adams behaved as Trump does wouldn't the Congress of their day find a way to remove them from office?
1
After two and half years of this White House circus, the country is already exhausted. In another year and half, it will be comatose. And a comatose electorate does not rush to the polls. It gives up. Which is what Trump does best, push his opponents to give up.
Impeachment may provide CNN and MSNBC with five Breaking News of non-news per hour, but no one will watch or listen.
Democrats should put 100% of the little energy they have left to flip the Senate and send McConnell packing.
I can’t see any of the 20-plus Democrats trying to unseat Trump able to out bully the bully. They would be better off going to a spa, getting some exercise, enjoying some massages, and, for the ladies, getting some facials and manicure. In a word, recharge form the comatose state, and take on McConnell’s Senate with renewed energy.
And if they are successful, then have some fun and give us some impeachment entertainment.
2
Perhaps we should spend less time debating whether or not Trump should be impeached and more time discussing the ideal time to do it. Impeachment before the 2020 elections will surely fail in the senate. What then if Trump is re-elected as Bret suggests he likely will be? The Democrats need to focus on retaining control of the house and gaining control of the senate. If they can accomplish that, a second term with impeachment looming will be a hollow victory, and it will provide a check on moronic executive excess. Worry less about Trump. Vote down the GOP.
Censure. Impeach. Just get rid of this embarrassing excuse of an administration. Stephens is correct in observing that anything the Democrats do will just be ignored.
3
The economy is not "really good" for 90% or more of the country, who haven't gotten real meaningful raises in decades and have virtually no savings to fall back on. Get out of your ivory tower and see what's actually behind macro statistics.
2
What do Democrats want to impeach Trump for? Obstruction of justice? You mean, like deleting 33,000 emails AFTER receiving a subpoena, like Hillary did? Democrats were pretty ambivalent about that.
Or do they want to impeach for collusion with Russians, like when the Clinton campaign paid a foreign national for Russian dirt on Trump? Either way, I hope they try.
Just a heads up/shout out for Gail.
Most serious gun owners / gun rights types, especially the younger ones HATE THE NRA.
The NRA is a weak and foolish organization that cares more about media exposure and oney than protecting gun righs, and also frequently seems to torpedo gun rights activism with poor political descision making.
Groups like the GOA are WAY MORE DANGEROUS to liberals who want more gun control. Over the last decade the GOA has been 10x more effective than the NRA.
Essentially the NRA is for fudds (look it up) where as the GOA is for people who want the NFA to go away.
If there are no impeachment proceedings , then the Democrats do not have a problem with the behavior of this president. Claiming concerns about how impeachment will effect their party in 2020 shows the Democrats are more concerned for their party than their concern for our country.
Impeachment will fail and it will define 2020 for Democrats and re-elect trump. There are far more important issues that would raise democrats standing with voters. We just don’t hear from them and all we see are embittered naysayers bent on gleeful political revenge, even if the price of that is the cost of the next elections.
1
There are some socialistic programs in our economy, but the US financial policy is not socialism it is regulated capitalism for the good and benefit of the citizenry of the US. Only those who have an abundance of wealth and assets are against such social helping programs. Millions of Americans do not have enough income to afford a healthful, fair, and decent life and those who have much wealth have financial gain at the detriment of those Americans who are at the middle income or poor levels, thereby taking advantage of position and power. Such inequality is mediated by congressional legislation and some social programs counterbalance the disparity.
2
Bret is correct. Donald Trump will win the next election. We have a tendency to give each president their two terms. The only exception in recent memory: George Bush Sr. who was a republican who followed a republican. Donald Trump victory prediction made on 6/4/2019.
Has anyone been giving more consideration to a "Government of Our Peers" lately? It would be a welcome change from a "Government of Those Who Can Win a Popularity Contest".
Impeachment - is not going to happen, and the DEMS are wasting their time. Trump would not have survived this long without the support of his republican side kicks. Even his opponents like our Texas hero Ted Cruz hopped on to his band wagon when they realized which side of the bread to butter. The dems should focus on 2020 and get cracking on some real issues. Voting him out in 2020 is the ONLY way to get him out.
1
Let's not forget that it is the Senate who will hold the trial, in this which used to be a Democratic Republic.
There is no chance that Trump will be held accountable there . . . he has yet to be held accountable by most, including the GOP and its king, Majority Leader McConnell.
And, President Clinton received a 70%+ approval rating AFTER his impeachment and Democrats won seats in Congress, as well.
Don't impeach. Vote him - his Cabinet and as many of his supporters - out of office . . . a far, far stronger message from the people. (Let's focus on getting as many people out to vote THIS November. A whole bunch of Republicans are up for re-election. Money, attention, media focused there.)
2
"Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him."
Extremely debatable point. His diehard supporters will certainly stick to him. But the airing of his dirty laundry may help to sway some of the fence sitters out there, even those who voted for him in 2016 as a 'lesser of 2 evils' candidate.
DEMs need to be doing and can do 2 things at once. The House needs to pursue BOTH agendas, airing Trump's dirty laundry incessantly AND proposing policies & legislation that advance's America's future, so that when their attempts at progress are blocked by the Senate, they can show the American voters what we need to do if we want to make progress, get DEM control of the Senate.
DEM candidates for president and for other elected offices, such as the Senate, should stay away from the impeachment issue and Trump in general. Let the House do that dirty work. Candidates should project a forward-thinking vision of building America's future in a rapidly changing world.
The DEMs can accomplish this if they think strategically and coordinate among each other.
We'll see. I make no predictions.
1
@J Jencks
Of course, even if the DEMs succeed at doing 2 things at once and doing both well, that's no guarantee the mainstream media will be covering both stories. In general the media seems to prefer a single story line / arc.
My guess is they will pursue the impeachment story line because it's full of more direct and telegenic conflict, while ignoring all the policy/legislation efforts of House DEMs to prepare us for a changing world.
Sorry, but I disagree with Bret on any Democratic challenger being an 'underdog' against Trump in 2020 because of the strong economy. Trump is still mired at 40 to 42% support despite the best economic numbers in thirty years. And why? He is stuck there because over half the electorate finds him vile and he knows it - so he makes no attempt to woo them and expand his base. Any other person of either party as President would be enjoying poll numbers in the mid 60's with an economy like this. The visceral hatred of most Americans towards this man is so high it doesn't matter how low the unemployment rate goes.
3
Go Warriors! There's no greater model for how to create a great Team, motivate it through the successes it has had, have joy in doing so, and raising the bar for all other teams. That's exactly what this country needs! The repression of that model has led directly to Trump. The Democrats have to get rid of their obsession over Trump and focus, laser-like on a positive, creative response to crucial economic problems that affect certain classes and regions and get someone who can actually lead. And by the way, if Toronto beats GS, the Warriors to a man will give Toronto all the credit. They have that one quality sorely lacking today: Respect for your opponent.
1
Despite my inability to dwell on every sage word in this predictably boring conversational record between two smart elites on the theme of impeachment, I nonetheless sifted through the tedium in hopes of determining their theory of an impeachment basis, which appears to be that Trump dangled a pardon in front of Paul Manafort (likely to spend his life in jail, only not for colluding with Russia.) This lone specificity amidst the mushy charge that Trump sought to halt Meuller's investigation, one replete with such episodes as the early morning swat team at Roger Stone's house. Bravo conventionalists!
1
You reap what you sow. Liberals over the past thirty or so years have deconstructed this country’s story to death. There’s no longer a strong belief in the (or a) principled constitutional and social history of the United States and the vacuum is filled by demagoguery of jerks like Trump, Hannity and Tucker Carlson. People need a story - a history - that rings true to their life experience in order to be at peace. Just ask Freud.
1
@Paco
Agree with some of your thrust but hope you may come to understand that by using the term demagoguery you are overlooking: (i) the fact that you just plainly disagree with the policies they espouse; and (ii) that to speak truth to power (i.e. the power of the Dems/Left enabled by the toadying MSM) for the benefit of hundreds of millions of busy citizens, one has to speak loudly, paint with bold strokes and capture complex matters in simple choices.
Also, I hope you will come to see that Tucker Carson is genuinely addressing important cultural, not just political, matters which transcend politics and the moment. I believe he is an important voice in the wilderness of the MSM, even when I disagree with him.
The utterly sad thing is that we have an autocratic and ignorant boor representing us in remembering the millions who fought the dictators of the nineteen thirties. Our real heroes, like the McCain family, get their names covered in shrouds so as not to offend the ignorant one.
Collins and Stephens are useless in their jaded discussion of the new normal. They sound so tired and ready to do anything else except confront the ugliness that is trump's America. His thriving economy is based on debt and handouts, and his trade wars are the height of idiotic arrogance.
But then, I like presidents who actually uphold the rule of law and defend the Constitution.
6
Just a thought - why can't he be impeached for Crimes Against Humanity? Is that a thing? What he has done to migrants and their children are crimes in my eyes and heart. And how about how Trump treats Puerto Rico, that place he thinks is another country? There is so much this awful man is guilty of. Find something and throw him in jail already!
5
"Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him. Impeachment will have to be based on an interpretation of the Mueller report that is, at the very least, contestable."
Really I mean contestable????
Why is it always Trump and conservatives that make this argument?
Nothing will fire up the Democrats base like impeachment conviction or not.
As for impeachment energizing Trump's base well old Republicans vote at like a 95% rate so impeachment will not affect Trump's base to any degree.
4
Leaders need to lead, especially in difficult times. This is such a time. Trump is (IMO) a threat to our National Security and to our Democracy. He SHOULD be impeached. Starting the process is the way to bring people along. Leaders don't wait for others to lead, they start down the path themselves. I think Nancy Pelosi is not doing the job she was elected to do, until she truly provides the checks and balances she is required to do.
Impeach Donald Trump.
2
I tire of the description of the economy being so good without the qualification that it is being subsidized by huge deficit spending. Duh.
5
Whether or not an impeachment proceeding is initiated the country needs to be prepared for the very real possibility that this president will not leave office if and when he is soundly defeated in 2020. It’s time to start thinking like a chess player- in other words thinking three moves ahead rather than just the next week ahead. The media needs to wake up in this way in particular because they have conditioned both themselves and the public to think in soundbites and in news cycles .
We’re going to need to think ahead together on this one and if you don’t believe me just study your 20th-century history.
3
Calling oneself a “TRUMPET” is an insult to the great instrument that many great American professionals have played . Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis must be rolling in their graves and when they hear this, and I can hear Wynton Marsalis laughing....
Think of something a little bit more creative and a little less odious.
2
Losing sleep on this logic: Ample evidence of obstruction / cover up. Denial of any involvement , engagement or knowledge of Russian contact,assistance or influence. He is obstructing his claims of innocence. And yet, America gently sleeps.
4
Trump never tried to stop the Mueller investigation as Gail Collins alleges. The Mueller says that new media reports about Mueller’s perceived conflicts of interest may have caused Trump to decide Mueller should be replaced as special counsel. He told White House counsel Don McGahn to called Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and tell him that “Mueller has conflicts and can’t be special counsel.”
But the Mueller report reveals Trump relented when McGahn refused to make the call. Instead of picking up the phone and calling Rosenstein himself, Trump called Chris Christie to ask for advice. Christie warned the president that replacing Mueller would cost him the support of Republican congressmen.
Trump decided not to remove Mueller because it would be construed as obstruction of justice. To think that the Senate would convict a president for deciding not to remove Mueller is a fantasy. Besides, if Trump had replaced Mueller due to conflicts of interest, they would not have been obstruction.
Wow, watch Fox Fake News shows a bit too much!
Read the Mueller Report. Read the statement that 1,000 prosecutors have signed. Re-read two years of investigative reporting.
There is ample evidence that Trump obstructed justice and should be charged. There is even ample evidence he colluded with the Russians; it's not conspiracy because evidence went missing and that requires working *directly* with the Russian *government*, etc. not simply oligarchs and Putin associates.
But the Russia thing is only the tip of the corruption and criminal iceberg!
Oh, well! There's little point in trying to reason with or persuade people whose minds are so closed. 🙈 🙉 🙊
3
@Marsha Pembroke
I don't watch Fox News. I cited the Mueller report.
Do you really thing deciding not to replace Mueller is grounds for impeachment?
If the evidence is so ample, why can't you cite an example of unlawful collusion or conspiracy or some other crime.
Impeachment is the means to an end -- the education of the American people on the seriousness of the Russian attack against our country (as emphasized by Muller), and the response of our President, the Commander in Chief, to this attack.
The Presidents response appears to be (1) denying that an attack by Russia took place, (2) trying to prevent our institutions in researching the attack, and (3) refusing to vigorously defend our nation from future attacks.
Unfortunately, most Americans will not read the Muller report, or his summaries. Most do not listen to non-bias news stations, nor read actual newspapers. Therefore, a public display of the information in an impeachment environment is the most effective way to educate the public.
For removing the President from office, this is best done by a devastating lost in the general election.
1
Americans, sadly, don’r think the norms that Trump breaks matter. Impeachment will put his norm-breaking into stark relief, but what good is that, if people don’t think the norms are important?
2
No impeachment now means no impeachment ever. Lack of enforcement will change the Constitution exactly like taking a pair of scissors to Article 2. Without the Impeachment Clause we have a Monocracy.
4
Good discussion. Thank you, to both columnists.
I had been having a hard time reading Mr. Stephens' columns of late, but this discussion shows that he may be more reasonable than I previously thought.Therefore I'll give him another chance at my eyes, For What They're Worth. Cheers.
Anyone who thinks the economy is good can't see beyond their nose. People with higher educations are not working to their potential--poor people have to work two jobs to make ends meet. Besides, the economy's gonna tank when the tariffs hit. AND there's no apportionment for anything: schools, health care, climate change, etc. etc. We're in collapse Ms. Gail and Mr. Brett. Please stop saying the economy is good.
5
The MSM (including the Times) want impeachment. If there is a single weapon that will completely suck the wind out of the sails of the Bernie/Warren run, it will be impeachment. This is the reason why the MSM wants it so badly. Impeachment will literally put a huge sticking plaster on the mouths of both Warren and Bernie and force them to keep talking about Trump ad his shenanigans instead of attacking the real enemies, i.e. Insurance companies, Pharma, Physician lobby, CAble companies, blood sucking Wall Street etc. Unfortunately the only stumbling block in this 'We want impeachment now' move is Nancy Pelosi. She seems to be catching up on her reading of Machiavelli before doing anything precipitate because she is being Primaried.
1
Stephens and others are taking a big leap of faith that Trump will have a strong economy in his corner 17 months from now. He can't escape the consequences of his trade war forever, even though $1 trillion in annual deficit spending has enabled him to postpone the reckoning. The shaky stock market, months-long decline in freight shipments and other weakening indicators increasingly suggest the reckoning is soon at hand.
2
The general consensus of those 'in the know', whoever that might actually be, is....Impeachment should not be pursued by the House.
However, there is ample basis to impeach President Trump.
Impeaching Trump would be primarily based on the lengthy evidence laid out in Volume 2 of the Mueller Report, which painstakingly documents Trump's longstanding and adamant efforts to obstruct justice in the investigation on Russian interference with our 2016 and 2020 national election.
Other reasons have been amply documented over the past two years. See George Will's scathing article over the weekend, below.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/impeachment-would-be-a-debacle/2019/05/31/61474462-8315-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html?utm_term=.e72fb4f6acb9
The 'in the know' folks have lost their bearing, and they are not capable of thinking clearly and deciding and acting on the basis of what is right and what is wrong.
It is not difficult to identify what is right in this situation. As Colonel Slade in 'Scent of a Women' stated, "I have come to the crossroads in my life. I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard."
But why don't our leaders act on what they know is right?
Folks with moral certitude and strength need to step up, take the torch from our timid leaders, and do what is right.
Leaders, for the sake of our country's health and well being:
Do What Is Right.
4
Just a couple of things:
First, you’re comments are a perfect illustration of what was wrong with Mueller’s report and his later press conference. Instead of clearly stating, one way or the other, whether he thought Trump obstructed justice he chose to leave the decision to congress. And even then he couched it all in legalese that left both no one and everyone with an understanding of what he said.
Second, you’re focus on enjoying the economy while Rome burns reminds me of a line in “Lady Windemere's Fan”, an Oscar Wilde play, in which one character describes a cynic as someone who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
5
Trump is not only just doing incalculable damage to our political culture, but immeasurable and permanent damage to the presidency and our democracy.
As for those arguing for impeachment, as a matter of principle, Bret Stephens said it very well indeed, as follows:
"Impeachment will not end Donald Trump’s presidency, since the Senate will never vote to convict. Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him. Impeachment will have to be based on an interpretation of the Mueller report.........."
1
This is why I read the NYT. In all my years, this is the first time I've read anything insightful coming from Henry Kissinger. I remember watching him on Nightline, and his command of the obvious was stunning.
1
For the Democrats to win, they must redefine the word SOCIALISM. In fact, it would be better every time a Republican hurls the dog whistle word SOCIALISM at a Democrat, the response should be "Are you talking about Social Democratic Capitalist Socialism or Communist Socialism? They're not at all the same thing"
Socialism is NOT the opposite of Capitalism. Democratic Socialism implemented in the United States will not cause a toilet paper shortage or make America anything like Venezuela or Cuba.
Write this on the blackboard of your mind 100 times until it sinks in. SOCIALISM IS NOT THE OPPOSITE OF CAPITALISM.
The United States is already a Socialist and Capitalist country. We need only look at Social Security and Medicare to see Democratic Socialism in action. We just need to go further and to do that the Democrats must educate the low information voter.
They hate Socialism the same way they hated Obamacare. When the actual provisions are explained and benefits to all people are known, they change their opinions.
Perhaps the irrational fear of a very misunderstood word will go away and people will stop voting against their own self-interest.
Mr. Stephens speaks of a "strong" economy, but it's only strong in terms of aggregate numbers. The "average" American's wages have been flat for decades, and it's only getting worse. To think that three billionaires have as much money as the "bottom" half of all Americans is just a shocking thing. With the highest income inequality of all the "rich" nations, we should be marching in the streets. But, with two-three "gig" jobs, I guess no one has the time nor the energy to do so.
5
Brett wrote:
"The surrender of the mainstream Republican Party to Trump will be a matter of political and even psychological analysis for decades to come. It is the transformation of a party into a cult."
Except that Donald Trump represents not a conversion but a culmination:
https://tinyurl.com/ybofsuc7
Trump is a capstone to over a decade of Republican dysfunction and corruption. Esteemed political scientists Ornstein and Mann warned way back in 2012 that "It's Even Worse Than It Looks". In a multitude of ways, Mitch McConnell plowed this ground in preparation long before Trump, and has kept right on plowing. The psychological analysis will need to take a very long view indeed.
Only THIS Republican party, the party of ideology and ignorance that desires absolute power but can't govern, could have nominated Trump. How it found its way to populism is an interesting side theme. The story of how and if it's resolved, and what remains of our governing institutions, will be something to watch.
2
why waste time governing when the time in office is so much more profitably spent stealing?
1
Ms. Collins, I beg to differ. Our armed forces are currently embroiled in multiple international conflicts, it's just that you and others in the media choose to ignore or downplay the fact. Why else do we spend $trillions a year on the military war machine?
@James Those "multiple international conflicts" are created to justify the obscene amount of money we waste on the military. Doesn't it bother you at all that we are constantly waging war around the world?
As much as many would like that to happen, I struggle to see the benefits in an impeachment procedure that would most likely consolidate the stance of the individual that Republicans have elected to support against all odds...
Ms Pelosi is right on her decision not to do that under current circumstances.
Trump is trying to concoct the crisis he needs. For starters: War with Iran is on the table. Why impeachment, you ask? It is a defensive strategy to save the country from what Trump might do, what he is capable of doing. If Trump could get a meteor to hit earth, he would. And alien invasion? Welcome to earth!! Short of those two things, what is in the mix? Some kind of major conflict? We are in trouble, regardless of party. Look at the current actors: Trump (and his family), Pence, Mulvaney, Bolton, Pompeo, Barr, McConnell and spokesperson Sarah Sanders. All willingly beholden to Trump and his tweet - storm style of government. Can we last until some event is concocted that is designed to convince people that "we cannot change horses midstream"? All the fodder for a regime change is in the Mueller report if one can only get past the double negatives. The question is, should action be taken now in the form of impeachment or any other of the possible strategies (Article 25) that will steer the country back to a path of rationality? Do we have a ticking time-bomb? I think yes. When is action needed? Now.
2
Ask anyone under age 50 what is Socialism and they don't have the foggiest idea. Confuse it with Social Media.
Ask any one age 50+ earning over $100,000 and they'll say that it is giving away free money at the Welfare Office to anyone who is unemployed, or a drug addict, or of color.
Remind the person with the sign "Keep the Government's Hands off my Medicare" that Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, responsible regulations for drugs, air travel, food, etc. are indeed socialism, and she'd hit me with her MAGA hat.
And let's not forget the Socialistic Capitalism of government outlays to energy corporations, agriculture, automobiles, and even IT companies!! Over $25 billion to the top eight corporate welfare recipients alone in 2017.
342
@East Coaster in the Heartland
Wait a minute. I'm over 50 and not only is my income but also my income tax bill over $100,000. I think socialism is means helping people less fortunate than I—and I'm all for it!
48
@East Coaster in the Heartland
I always bring up our public libraries--the most socialist institutions on earth, not to mention environmentally friendly!
36
@617to416
Socialism is state ownership of capital and property. What you guys are talking about are social,safety nets vis a vis Scandinavia.
22
The 2020 goal is to defeat Trump. If the Democrats could only be like the Warriors who play as a team and win, they might do just that. Instead, they are like many (most) dysfunctional NBA teams whose game comes down to hogging the ball, individual statistics, and not playing defense. Because of a lack of teamwork and cohesion in the party, I agree that the Democratic candidate will be the underdog. If Trump loses it will be in spite of the Democrats. It will be because he is reviled by enough voters.
2
I am so sick of hearing how great the economy is under Trump. A booming stock market and high GDP only tell us how corporations are doing, and if they are unwilling to share the obscene amount of money they make by paying their fair share of taxes and reasonable wages to their employees, then this is NOT a great economy. As long as we are stealing the futures from young people through student debt and siphoning the bank accounts of the sick and the elderly with a predatory medical system, then this is NOT a great economy. As long as the stock market rises and falls every time Trump tweets, and those of us who have been persuaded to put all our savings and retirement money there envision ruin several times a week, this is NOT a great economy. As long as we prioritize corporate greed over the health and well being of of the people who, through their taxes and labor make their profits possible, this is NOT a good economy.
8
@JJ
Even the stock market is far from booming.
Stocks are on a roller coaster.
3
Trump is the worst President we have had since Garfield. The goal, the ONLY goal is to remove him. That means we focus on actions that are likely to be successful, Impeachment will not be. Therefore we should be focusing our attention and efforts at defeating him in 2020.
Part of that effort will be to show the nation that Democrats are capable of governing. Right now you guys are in trouble, you are too focused on inside the beltway games. The American people don't care about your games. They want their roads fixed, they want the economy to keep going, and you are doing nothing about any of this. Why should they trust you with power? You haven't made you case to the people. . . .
2
Every day Trump does something that invites impeachment. If not know, when? At least after a House impeachment process, some Americans may have an education in civics. Just saw one comment that said the Senate impeaches. Time for some education.
2
the House impeaches but the Senate, such as it is, has the power to get rid of him. without McConnell and his pirate band an impeachment would be a toothless snarl and most likely only help the Republicans in the next cycle.
Mr. Stephens has got football all wrong. There is nothing in the world like its combination of intricacy and mayhem. It is, in sum, the quintessencially American game.
1
Nothing is likely to change the toxic political divide and opposite world views in this nation. They become more hardened on a daily basis. Trump supporters wall themselves off from facts and reality and pursue deflections. And since they have no defense for their cult leader’s corrupt actions and constant lies, their best response is to pretend they do not exist. Saying all that, Donald Trump is and has always been a criminal and a heinous one at that. If nobody is willing to stand up and say it loudly and forcefully then there is really nothing left to save.
5
Why is Bret so irreverent to our Constitutional order whence more-perfect-union-formation is all about MOVING FORWARD?
Is he even remotely aware that when presidential impeachment had first been tried its subject, Andrew Johnson, promised: "This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am president it shall be a government for white men"? With Trump -- exactly 150yrs later -- let's finally MAKE REPARATIONS [for the FIRST time] AGAIN.
Even Bret's fantasy of play-acting a James Bond wannabe fix to his having never "served" his hawk fervor is disingenuous.
1
The argument that impeachment should not be pursued because it will fail in the Senate is neither righteous nor convincing.
It is not right for our "representatives" to fail to catalogue and exhibit all the evidence of criminality, the condoning of Russian interference, the blatant obstructions of justice and the deranged rantings recorded on video and on twitter.
It is not right to fail to act due to fear of failure. Living righteously involves taking chances.
It is not convincing to argue that an adequate number of Republican senators would not be swayed by strong, well presented evidence of impeachable misdeeds and manifest unfitness for office. We won't know whether a dozen of them can't be made to see and act on the facts unless we try. If the evidence is overwhelming, and it is, then some of them may vote to impeach either to uphold law and morality or to avoid losing the votes of their outraged constituents.
4
“ Never interrupt your Enemy when He is making a mistake “ - attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte. Let Trump be Trump. He is doing a fine Job, of destroying the GOP. Collaborators, cowards and scammers. November 3, 2020. A date that will live in retribution, and karmic justice.
6
@Phyliss Dalmatian
Napoleon's quote was about warfare, when opposing armies are lined up and facing each other across a distance..
It doesn't work when the enemy is in charge of your own country and is destroying it from within.
1
If anything Trump is lucky. Dems should plan for the worst-case scenario; losing the House, The Senate and The Presidency in 2020. Therefore they should impeach while they can. Who cares what McConnell does? He’s been banking on a Democratic Party that is averse to risk and he beats them every. darn. time.
5
Trump has utterly destroyed the dignity of the office of the presidency, and I do not believe we will ever recover the "solemnity in our politics," especially with anti-democracy trolls like Mitch McConnell guarding the gate of the once-hallowed halls of the U. S. Senate. He steadfastly refuses to allow any legislation to enter and be voted upon; all possible legislation that might benefit the average American's economic status is DOA. He is the Puppet Master, Trump is the puppet. America will never be the same after this debacle of an administration. BTW, Bret, Steve Kerr, coach of the Golden Warriors, is a revered icon and favorite son around my town - he was one of our very favorite players for the University of Arizona's Wildcats, so BOO to you for disrespecting his team! O Canada indeed! Go Golden Warriors!
140
@AKL
Mitch McConnell must be removed from Congress and then and only then will Congress be bi-partisan and get legislation done that is essential to a healthy countryl
20
@AKL
Not to mention Iggy and his last second dagger on Sunday. One of Lute's last recruits.
4
@Shenonymous
Republicans could remove Mitch at any time. They want him in there obstructing as much as possible so they don't take any of the blame for it and they can foist it all on him and his safe Kentucky seat. It's unbelievable to me that this man can survive election after election.
That's what unbridled political spending can do for you.
20
Why should we impeach when the rule of law is arbitrary and integrity is dead? I wonder what other scenarios and under what conditions you geniuses might sing another tune?
The Democrats are once again dropping the ball.
They still fear the bully Trump, not matter how much they resist.
Robert Mueller made it clear; he handed the congress the impeachment evidence.
Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are so last century; they are out of touch with the average Americans.
1. Trump is unpopular
2. Half the country wants impeachment
3. Trump fears the stain of impeachment on his legacy
4. The Law calls for impeachment according to Mueller report
Message to democrats, your fear of Trump is appalling.
184
@PeaceLove
I agree with your comment - Articles of Impeachment are the "trump" card held by the Democratic leadership in Congress. The excuse that using it might hamper chances to be Trump in 2020 is feeble at best. Think of all the independents and skeptical Democrats - skepticism born of waiting for a "fair deal" for all to be the platform of the party - who may well just sit on their hands in 2020, as opposed to being fired up, if it is not used. And if, I might add, if a centrist Democrat manages to get the nomination.
10
@PeaceLove
Impeachment without removal will only strengthen the forces Trump. Bret's analysis is spot on. I suppose if impeachment hearings were slow and thorough, digging in and developing the evidence, it might work. But the ongoing committee work will do the same, assuming continued court victories. You can bet that even with impeachment, court tussles will occur over what evidence will be made public.
The House should not need impeachment to obtain the evidence. My gut tells me that if a more thorough vetting of the evidence is public, impeachment, and removal, will follow.
20
@William Lazarus
Not if the Democrats make intelligent and forceful arguments about the need for impeachment and parity in the US government; and arguments about the utter corruption in Donald Trump and his administration!
13
No Mr. Stephens, when are you going to acknowledge the truth, namely, that it isn't "Trumpian capitalism" that produced a strong economy? Rather, it was Obama policies that produced a strong economy, an economy that generated the longest run of consecutive monthly growth in private employment .. in history.
The Trump GOP just hasn't ruined it .. yet.
8
Gail wrote: "Socialism gets a raw deal. I know people are afraid of it, but when you compare it with Trumpian capitalism, it looks pretty damned good."
Be afraid, be very afraid.
'Never had a sports conversation in my life until we got this president.'
Me too!
In all these years, I have never followed sports on TV or radio or whatever. I have no clue as to who is playing whom on any day, who is winning, who is losing, who is getting how much, etc. (Actually, I understand that there are eminently watchable shows on TV where usually both men and women play together and seem to have a lot of fun together and there is a lot of camaraderie between the players, but no one is declared a winner at the conclusion of the activity and no one gets a trophy). Rather than watching other people having fun and getting paid handsomely for it, I myself enjoy swimming, skiing, etc., where there are lots of happy people around but I am not competing with anyone of them.
But when I get our local paper three days a week, the very first section I go for is the Sports section! No, not to find out who played whom, etc., but because the last page of that section has the weekly weather report - at least, that is how it is in our hometown paper. For years, I have made it a practice to cut out the the section giving the week's prediction and stick it to the side of the fridge. Somehow, I find it comforting to know how it is going to be, weather-wise, for the next seven days. It gives me sense of foreknowledge and certainty.
We need to stop thinking about impeachment as a way to punish Trump for ordinary crimes. The real "high crime and misdemeanour" this president is committing is his attack on the Constitutional balance between Congress, the Courts, and the President. By defying Congressional oversight, by refusing to respond to Congressional subpoenas and Court orders, by abusing emergency powers to usurp Congress's appropriation power and ignore its legislation, by abusing his pardon power, by potentially using his office for his own financial gain while resisting basic transparency about potential conflicts of interest, by failing to defend the nation's elections from interference by a foreign power, and by preventing all investigations by agencies and Congress that might reveal essential information about that interference, the President is directly attacking the Constitutional balance of powers. The main tool the Congress has to protect its own power and check the president is to impeach. By not impeaching, the Congress is essentially accepting the precedent that Trump has set, that executive power far exceeds the power of the other branches and cannot be checked. We are headed into very dangerous territory. An elected king is still a king and Congress should not relinquish its powers without a fight.
5
I’m old enough to remember the antiwar/student power/black power era of the ’60s and ’70s, when the left was way more radical, and the rhetoric was even more over the top than it is now.
And often enough right on target.
4
The opponent for the Democrats in 2020 is not Trump. It is polarization and tribalism, which impeachment would only exacerbate. Obstruction of justice without an underlying crime will be seen as divisive politics, and the Republicans will be only too happy to remind us all of Bill Clinton.
@David Schock
Obstruction of justice is a crime in itself, regardless of whether another crime underlies it.
You can be convicted of resisting arrest even if you are found innocent of the alleged crime for which you were arrested.
2
"The semi-collapse of the National Rifle Association because of internal corruption may make it easier for congressional candidates to run on rational gun platforms." The key word being "may". Its way to much to hope that character, principles, and a sense of duty to American citizens would be enough. None of that will pay for campaign commercials.
Failing to impeach, or at least trying, will be played by Trump as the democrats admitting the whole Russia thing was indeed a witch hunt. He will use the lack of effort as an exoneration by his enemies, the dirty democrats.
I’d rather have him exonerated by his friends in the Senate than by his enemies in the House (and press).
5
“We must impeach!” declare the Democrats.
Then they stand around wondering for what?
Want to have some fun?
Ask a Liberal specifically what Trump should be impeached for.
His attempt to obstruct justice. Also, once hearings begin it will be obvious that his shady financial dealings are ethical violations of the emolument regulations. I would rather see him beaten but I don't have any problem seeing grounds for impeachment hearings. I am not a liberal by the way. I am very centrist. But Republicans stopped being conservative quite a while ago.
4
I would be so happy to answer but the Times places a strict limit ln the number of characters in a post. so, as shorthand, let's just say he has failed spectacularly to uphold his oath of office and he is catastrophically unable to carry out his duties to the country.
4
Poor Bret. It's hard to believe that he won any prizes with zingers like this:
"Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy ..."
It sure isn't strong for the average working class family.
6
I loathe Trump. I always have, even before he ran for president. I always thought this despicable human being, with no redeeming qualities, was everything that a man should not be. I still can't bring myself to associate him with the title of the office. That said, DO NOT IMPEACH! There is no possible way the impeachment would be successful and it would only make him stronger politically. Please, you who would vote for his reelection, just take a clear-eyed look at how abominable he is, and help us vote him out! Please!
2
@Elizabeth
"Clear eyed?"
What's amazing is, no one on the Left believes they do anything wrong...ever. All that's bad is always Trump's fault. So, the only thing the Left stands for now is - "Get rid of Trump - Anyway we can!"
Therefore, because of this mindset and in combination of the Left not focusing on real issues which affect our country, our President will be reelected
And the Dems know it.
@DB You do not need to be of the "Left", I am not, to see how utterly objectionable this man is on every possible level. Yes, please take a clear eyed look and you'll see a narcissistic, dishonest, misogynistic, racist bully. How can you not?
The blather about impeachment is just insane. What we had was the Clinton machine meddling with foreign intelligence and involving some of the more partisan corrupt jerks in US intelligence in trying to throw an election for Hillary. When that failed, the tried a coup. That doesn’t call for impeachment, that calls for criminal investigations of the Clinton machine, and likely Obama. Rice’s self serving year late memo raises a whole host of issues that embroils Obama, Clapper, Brennan, Yates, Rice, Lynch, and Biden in the coup plot. One thing we do know, Trump did not collude with anyone and he won an election because a majority of voters loathed the alternative. If the Democrats continue their paranoid scorched earth hysterics, they are going to self destruct. Stop it!
@Mike Brooks Clinton had 3 million more votes. Figure out what a majority is.
5
@Mike Brooks
No, no, no...Don't stop...continue.
It's great to see the Dems self destruct!
Our President will be reelected in 2020.
And the Dems know it.
@Mike Brooks
I've searched in vain for anything in your post that might be true.
Alas. Nothing.
Are we not still in Afghanistan?
1
The collapse of the conservative "intelligentsia" is the least remarkable part of this. Trump is just a grosser version of who they have always been. I am certain that many of them envy the straightforwardness of his racism, climate change denial, and joy in creating economic disparity. It is probably nice to not have to use carefully coded language to secure the support of the hoi poloi. And tariffs to transfer the tax burden to the lower and middle classes while cutting taxes for the wealthiest. What's not to like?
2
I do not think Don the Con would give up office when he looses. He knows he will go to jail afterwards. There is no telling, at this point, how decisively foreign intrusion into the election will impact the outcome. If impeachment goes forward the Congress has expanded subpoena powers and could actually get people in to testify, which they seem to be unable to do. I believe those proceedings would show the relationship of Russia to D the C and how truly filthy this guy is. That swings the Senate races based upon those findings. I would prefer that we not have to impeach, but there is no limit to how low this thing will go.
1
Yes we should get to impeachment. What's wrong with media types who advocate not following the Constitution? Too many media types are saying no impeachment when it obvious trump has obstructed justice several times. Shame on the media.
4
@dupr
It's obvious...really, folks..it's "obvious".
Nonsense.
If it were - it would be.
It ain't - it's just the Left clinging onto something - anything! to keep their rhetoric in the news in their sad attempt to win in 2020.
But hey, it is entertaining to see the Left lose their minds.
The fact that (somehow) Mueller didn't conclude that Trump's actions rose to the level of criminal conspiracy, doesn't change the fact that:
- Trump's campaign welcomed and accepted Russian help in the election.
- Trump's campaign knowingly shared information with Russian agents in hopes of gaining political advantage.
- The Trump campaign was involved directly in soliciting and coordinating the distribution of information that was stolen by people associated with the Russian government.
Even without the damning evidence of obstruction, what Trump did before the election is reason enough for being impeached. Get on with it.
6
It is morally reprehensible to let people get away with crimes. When it is so visible in the leaders of the country it is even worse. It tears at the fabric of a society based on the rule of law. If the law means nothing then the basis of society falls apart and people will be emboldened to cheat lie and steal their way to whatever they want. Trump must be censored, impeached, and removed from office. If impeachment doesn't do it, the the ballot box must, but we cannot just let his actions go unchecked. Impeachment is the right thing to do and so that is what we must do. This administration has moved America so far from its moral moorings that we must do everything to move it back. He needs to go through the process of impeachment and then all the other investigations into his financial misdeeds, throughout the years, needs to be concluded and if he is judged to be guilty then he must be convicted and serve his time. Same for all his enablers.
9
Save time, energy and treasure. Tossing this guy and his Senate enablers out in 2020 is the way forward.
This assumes the concept of reason still exists.
5
don't count on it.
As much as I'd like to get Donald Trump off my mind, I know absolutely zip about American basketball.
Which leads us back to impeachment.
I never thought I'd agree with Bret Stephens on anything -- but he got it right here.
Without the Republican-held Senate, there would never be the votes to do it.
That's why I must side with Nancy Pelosi, who easily knows the U.S. Constitution as well as the Founding Fathers.
Best to play by the book of law, because nothing would please Trump more than digging in his heels and resorting to his favorite ploy -- excessive litigation.
And since he's managed to stock the Supreme Court bench, that would be an agony.
Which ultimately means there's only one assured way to get Trump out of the White House.
VOTE him out.
5
there is also the 25th.
1
@Pottree
And the Emoluments Clause.
@N. Smith
To avoid prosecuting a crime for fear of losing votes is cowardly.
The House could impeach Trump tomorrow if it had the will.
The resulting publicity detailing Trump's crimes and misdemeanors would convict him in the public's mind, regardless of what happens afterwards in the Senate.
There is no verifiable, factual cause-of-action to invoke impeachment. Moreover, it would never survive Senate ratification, even if it survived the House. Therefore it is both illogical and counter-productive. It is merely an agenda (and fantasy) of the radical wing of the DNC which is why there is hesitation internally: not over the president, but over who controls the Party, and to what (mis) uses it may be directed. In the meantime, the DNC cannot field a candidate for 2020 that can survive the President, and if they are still in the business of representing their larger public constituency (versus a very small cabal of special interests), that is where they should focus their energy and resources. Slouching indeed, but otherwise toward self-destruction.
1
I agree impeaching Trump is a matter of principle on many grounds.
1. Besides, what do we think the Republicans would be doing if Hillary became president in 2016? What they would be doing is holding lots of congressional investigations of Hillary for public spectacle. I heard the Republicans had already drawn up plans to impeach Hillary if she were president, and were ready to pounce as soon as she took the Oath of Office.
2. More important, no one needs to be held accountable more than DJ Trump. But, impeachment is not really for Trump--because he will never grasp the difference between right and wrong and taking personal responsibility. Impeachment is to reinforce our Constitution in many ways, especially the checks and balance system between the executive and legislative. Get the old tattered democracy train back on track.
3. Who cares if the Senate, under the jack-boot of Mitch McConnell, will refuse to vote for impeachment. Just another sign the GOP cares nothing about laws, justice, and accountability. Who cares? Historians will care and write for decades about the corrupt Trump years.
4. Two arguments stated against impeachment : "Impeachment will further polarize the country and consume the country’s attention away from everything else."
But the country is already polarized in the wrong direction; plus, who wants Trump and the GOP passing any legislation to (wink-wink) fix things, which will be just another opportunity for crony capitalism?
Just do it!
8
Impeachment. Because it is the right thing to do. We were all taught that the ends do not justify the means. And yet, that's the way that US politics has progressed in the past few decades. American mainstream media has jumped in with both feet accepting the 'realpolitik' - a nasty word which I for one am fed up of hearing - as if rebranding underhandedness and immorality somehow makes it better.
Time for the 4th estate to stop being left or right and simply hold whomever is in office to account. It's not the mainstream media's job of helping or hindering electoral chances. Inform the people and let them decide.
By the way, Prof. Alan Lichtman has correctly predicted the last 9 Presidents. According to him and his formula, there is a greater chance of unseating trump if he undergoes impeachment proceedings. But, once again, don't do it to unseat, do it 'cause it is the right thing to do. It would be a good start at trying to restore America, which by all accounts has become a failed democracy.
7
I read that some sectors of our economy are being placated with the idea of "short term pain for long term gain" regarding Trumps tariffs aka taxes. How about we try that idea with gun control?
Could we accept & support the short term "pain" of losing the access to non-sport guns (those used in mass murder, injury, psychological trauma, domestic terrorism) for the long term gain of a safer society?
The subject of what a great economy we have comes up here as elsewhere and I have to ask—why are the first two years or so of the economy under Trump considered such a great economy when the least two years or so of the economy under Obama considered—and were regularly described in press reports and in commentary as—middling? There’s virtually no difference in the economic stats.
The US economy was bleeding 750,000 jobs a month when Obama was sworn in. By the end of the year it was producing jobs and the private sector began its longest unbroken run of job growth EVER. It continues, but get back to me when private-sector growth under Trump surpasses 7 years and we can talk.
I give the Bush administration some credit for making bold moves when it was absolutely necessary. I give Republicans in Congress post-Bush absolutely no credit—they either fought Obama’s program at every turn or sat on their hands, despite efforts that seem nearly absurd in retrospect to get bipartisan support.
I give Obama plenty of credit. He made necessary calls and hard calls, such as rescuing the auto industry, which was a political loser. Without these, I think we would have had a second Great Depression. And he did it at much less cost to the Treasury than Trump’s useless $1.9M tax cut (ultimately at a profit, in the case of the auto bailout).
Is there some strange gas in the air that makes the press consistently buy the Republican line on the economy?
9
@Daniel M
I'm pretty sure Obama is no longer in office.
Our President is Donald J. Trump.
Each President is a recipient of whatever efforts occured in the previous administration.
But it's up to the current President to continue whatever positive momentum was at hand when they took over the Presidency. (or discontinue negative actions affecting the nation).
So as much as you don't want to admit it - Our President has kept the economy stable and growing during his administration.
Obama is gone. Move on.
The anti-impeachers make too many assumptions and draw incorrect conclusions from recent history. First, they assume that the aim of impeachment is removal from office. Given the composition of the US Senate and their sycophancy I don't believe that anybody harbors that delusion. Second, they assume that impeachment would work in the Republican's favor. I believe the opposite is true.
Beyond the moral imperative of ridding the country of a crooked, compromised, incompetent vulgarian there ought to be the aim of disclosing how dangerous the president and his supporters have become. A relentless, televised exposure will erode public support from the GOP, just as it did during the Watergate hearings. More recently we witnessed the effect of seemingly endless Hilary Clinton hearings undermining her popularity and ultimately leading to her defeat. Thus, I expect that the blue wave will grow so that the 2020 elections will result not only in delivering the presidency, but also the senate.
9
"Next time, let’s discuss whether there’s anybody on the political horizon who could bring us time-of-crisis solidarity without actually requiring the crisis."
Hello, Gail: we have a crisis and his name is trump.
1
It's rare that I'm disappointed with Gail Collins. But a breezy statement like "the economy is really good" suggests that she's a little too far inside that NE Corridor bubble. In this "really good" economy, a majority or near-majority of Americans lack sufficient financial reserves to cover one emergency expense.
It's the sort of tone-deaf statement I'd expect from Bret Stephens, who doesn't really seem to acknowledge the existence of non-white/non-wealthy readers--hence his statements about impeachment and much else. But Gail almost always does better.
3
@Fred DiChavis
Collins lost my confidence when she decided to engage with Stephens as an equal.
Stephens lives in GOP La-La-Land, not the real world of working class struggle and sweat. And his anti-Trump rhetoric doesn't save him: he supported the same policies that put Trump in office.
Collins may as well be debating with a flat earther. It's just as much a waste of time and diminishes her.
1
Re John Hickenlooper: he didn’t get booed because he’s against socialism. He got booed because it was a gratuitous statement.
Social security was considered socialist. So was Medicare. You can have a perfectly fine capitalist economy with Medicare for all.
4
Here is a scenario:
Trump gets impeached in the House
Trump gets exonerated in Senate
Trump leaves office 2020 or 24
The legal system tries to catch up to him
Trump lawyers argue that someone exonerated by the US Congress cannot be tried for the same crimes in a court and win
Trump lives out the rest of his life in luxury and peace with money he swindled from everyone else.
Impeachment is a road to indictment and incarceration- if you cannot reach the destination, DON'T START!
2
Impeachment is a trap. Why give the Senate an opportunity to exonerate Trump?
@Surya
It is not double jeopardy to be impeached and then indicted for the same crimes.
https://www.justice.gov/file/19386/download
Impeachment serves a larger purpose than just trying to deprive the president of a live of luxury — he would have that even were he convicted.
Impeachment demonstrates that there is behavior that is unacceptable in a political leader. It sends a message that the GOP has been complicit in lies, obstruction, and destruction of the needs of the American working class.
@Jerry Engelbach
Disagree.
For this president, impeachment is a conduit to indictment. So impeachment should result in removal from office. With this senate that won’t happen and so we need to wait
Indictment, I hope will lead to incarceration.
There are two aspects of impeachment. One is to removed Trump from office, which isn't going to happen because of a craven bunch of Republican senators more concerned with their own re-election than with the country. That's on them. Let history write their epitaph.
The second, and more germane part is to stand up for the office of the presidency and the Constitution. To say, "This shall not stand." To declare once and for all that Trumpism is an aberration, and that future presidents shouldn't get it into their heads that this behavior is now and forever OK. Because it isn't. And that's up to the House.
8
Bret, you cannot - CAN NOT - turn a blind eye to the crimes President Trump has committed. The House can and must impeach the president regardless of what the Senate would or would not do. It is not about helping or harming someone politically - it is about defending America against a criminal in the White House and holding him accountable for his crimes. Anything less is dereliction of duty by Speaker Pelosi and every single representative in the House who is not calling for President Trump's impeachment and the impeachment of Barr and Mnuchin. It has to be done.
4
Collins's and Stephens's flippancy is more evidence that Trump and other Republicans' crimes and unAmericanism have been thoroughly "normalized" in the most mainstream of mainstream journalism.
It is odd to read these two columnists speak of hope when they so clearly have abandoned it.
1
It won't matter if a Democrat is elected president as long as Mitch McConnell and his complicit GOP accomplices are willing to thwart any presidential policy, degrade our democracy and up-end our political norms. We have to elect a Senate that is majority Democratic.
3
So good to read two intelligent people, from opposite sides of the political spectrum, debate the issues with clarity and courtesy. I always come out of these columns knowing more than when I went in.
3
While pundits, and more importantly responsible citizens debate the merits of impeachment- or even the lower threshold of an impeachment inquiry (which is almost what we have now)- the opposition- Trump and cronies- foreign and domestic- proceed to boldly flaunt and break the law, ruthlessly pursuing their own economic and political interests.
Men and woman of actual courage know that in the face of an onslaught of the truth- where the level of corruption and lies it faces are as innumerable as the stars in the heaven- and the depths of crimes approaching the unspeakable- they KNOW there is only one course- but to confront the crimes against state and humanity. Nor are they inhibited by the fear of counteraction- because true evil tends to be cowardly when held accountable and brought to light- and- well...it is the right thing to do.
"What’s particularly remarkable is how thorough the collapse has been among the conservative intelligentsia."
Conservative intelligentsia? That's an oxymoron.
2
The Democrats have to realize that this is a "blood" sport now.
And get with the program.
His base doesn't care, but his hand has to be slapped.
Why doesn't someone go for the 25th amendment.
Does the Republican party not see the "long" game.
Or is it hold on now until our base is no longer voting
Spending twenty minutes reading over the “Conversation” by these two brilliant, sensible people is worth more than getting involved in the sound and fury, the blather, nonsensical noise of talking heads of cable tv and all the other sources of white noise that we find inescapable.
This is much better than a cup of coffee to clear the head and start the day with a (fairly) fresh perspective. Thank you for providing this sanity opportunity.
2
Michael Cohen is in jail. Why not Trump and his personal lawyer who set the false date for the end of the Trump Tower Moscow gambit. Look, let Trump do his Mexican Tariffs and the economy will tank by election time, leading to a socialist president or at least a Democrat. Our economy mirrors 1929--the rich richer, the poor toughing it out in multiple jobs for the minimum wage.
If Trump is a true narcissist, he will be looking out for himself and his family by 2020. All it would take is to replace a few Republican Senators with Democrats and hopefully, a Democrat as President of the Senate, and Trump would be impeached in his second term without a doubt. When he sees this truth, if he does, he will resign if he hasn't been impeached already and arrange for Pence to pardon him and his family members (maybe, a true narcissist only cares about himself).
We need televised hearings and maybe impeachment hearings to get even Republicans concerned. But remember, Republicans are on their way out. something like 70 percent of young people are Democrats and Socialists. It may take time, but we will get another Franklin Roosevelt only she will be a powerful woman.
The "impeachment" talk and the Mueller report are simply diversions the democrats are using because they have nothing of value to offer. The economy is going great, employment is going great, the US is finally getting around to dealing with trade issues, and Obama's JV team in the middle east has become just that.
Hopefully, one of the democrat Presidential candidates will offer something of value that will be worth giving him or her a try in office. Not holding my breath but I am hoping.
@RCS
Parroting Trump-talk is simply recirculating lies.
The economy is not going great for the average worker, and unemployment figures don't take into account how many people have two jobs, how many have given up looking for work, and how stagnant wages are.
Trump's "trade issues" — i.e., tariffs — are going to increase prices on consumer goods and won't create a single job.
Trump's policies in the Middle East have increased the tension between Israel and Palestine and are aimed at starting a war with Iran.
Meanwhile, the Democratic candidates have all put forward policies and plans to help working people and try to restore some balance in the nation's grossly disproportionate income inequality.
I love you guys - Brett and Gail, and enjoy your light hearted take on current events with good humor most of the time, but please do not throw around casually the idea that Trump could be President for another 5 1/2 years. It is simply like a bolt of lightening to my soul, an awful jolt to overcome while drinking your coffee. We simply can not tolerate another term. We must resist this fall from grace into fascism. We, as Americans, are better than this horrid man’s leadership, with his nasty bullying and attacking of all our democratic institutions, including our allies, our free press and the very rule of law. We must resist his authoritarian overreach in gaining an AG to do his bidding and a pitiful political party to prop him up, along with his own state run TV. This ALL happened in history before and it wasn’t because there were more bad actors, as there will always be those who seek to divide and conquer by fear and intimidation, but because good people did not engage and confront the evil head on, but looked to compromise and appease the dictators to avoid war (WWII) but there are some things worse than world war and that is mass oppression and subjugation, which would literally be equated to a Second Dark Ages. We sacrificed our blood and treasure before to avoid a megalomaniac taking over the world. We may have to do the same, but this time on our own turf if our elections are interfered with again and/ or Trump fraudulently wins another election.
2
Hardcore conservatives have always thought liberals to be tentative & indecisive. The interminable mulling over the impeachment of Trump by Democrats only confirms this.
Show me a Republican today really concerned about Trump's emoluments. They don't exist. The thinking now is why was this such a big deal in the past. Trump only confirms their view that you've got to make a quick buck before the liberals take it away.
Meanwhile the rank & file lockstep Republican voter continues to take advantage of every progressive measure ever enacted because, the feeling goes, if they don't, the undeserving miserablist will.
I wonder what Bret has against a team that supports each other, works very hard, raises families responsibly, doesn’t get into trouble, plays very unselfishly? Could it be that it is because the coach and team don’t support the GOP, don’t want to visit the WH under a tyrant?
1
RE: Gail's comment, "the yelling was filtered through the press" comment about the difference between today and the 60s.
The press was trusted in the 60s, not so much today, and that's mostly the fault of a shift in the role of journalism over the past 40 years. Today, news means looking for "exciting" stories showing conflicts, crimes, anything immediate that sparks emotion, not thinking. Technology change was what made the shift from cost center to profit center at local TV stations possible, with larger audiences and more advertising. It quickly became the model for journalism throughout the country, and twenty years later made something new possible...
Fox News was based on incorporating "if it bleeds, it leads" journalists schooled in generating fear and anger, and adding the final element, blame, for the full propaganda suite. With Murdoch and Ailes and the full support of one of the country's major political parties, the system was ripe for a takeover...
Enter Vladimir Putin, whose main goal remains splitting the US by inciting... fear, anger, blame.
1
@John
The MSM was no more trustworthy in the 1960s.
Most of it led the cheerleading for the Vietnam War and recirculated all the government's lies without question.
While the NFL maximizes brutality there is a lot of movement playing football, a lot more than baseball by comparison, and nobody playing any sport at a competitive level should be considered dumb because of their success.
The other night MSNBC had a documentary about Nixon and Watergate. Even though I lived through it, I found it to be riveting..and eerie. You see, Gail and Bret, this story’s theme and plot are the same as Russiagate, same leading actor but different face. I walked away KNOWING that the right thing to do was to begin impeachment proceedings. It is Congress’s obligation and sacred duty to save our democracy from a corrupt mad man. But alas, we American’s have changed. Our politicians have changed. We have lost our moral compasses, and have found our darker sides. Personally, I no longer worry about a Dem not winning the election. Trump will self-implode before then. What does leave me sleepless, however, is the knowledge that not only the GOP has lost its moral compass but also that we too have shed ours on a 5th Avenue of destruction and decay.
1
On impeachment:
Ms. Nancy Pelosi is still weighing the cost/benefit analysis: will impeachment rile Trump's base or rally the *huge* population of non-voters to come out and vote Democratic? The former, almost certainly, the latter almost certainly not.
Then there's the US Senate which has *never* voted to oust a sitting president. And of all the US Senates of history, it's pretty clear that this one won't no matter what the House dredges up -- and there is a stinky, viscous swamp full of Trump, Trump appointees, beneficiaries of Trump's nepotism, the usual hangers-on, and the customary bottom feeders that would keep the House on subpoena duty forever, pretty much. The Senate won't vote to remove, period.
Chances are impeachment by the House will end badly politically for the House, and Nancy knows her stuff.
1
@Lennerd
On the contrary, the massive exposure of Trump's crimes through impeachment will galvanize Democrats and independents to come out and vote.
It will not increase Trump's base, which will remain in a minority.
@Jerry Engelbach, on the contrary?
Yeah, Trump's base won't increase; they can be riled however.
You can’t impeach the entire Republican Party and that’s what it would take to get us out of the mess we’re in. And then we’d still have Fox News, the nation’s Kool-Aid dispenser. As a news organization they have less credibility than Julian Assange. Our problems go much deeper than Trump.
2
Leader Pelosi needs to decide NOW whether to impeach or not. If not then move on, take aim at the wicked Mitch of the south, and other tangible issues. If yes, schedule the hearings this month and get on with the show.
The longer the House waits the more Trump will sow confusion and discredit this important power vested in the legislative branch.
His most recent word salad demonstrates once again his inane ability to completely misrepresent the constitution.
"It's high crimes 'and' — not 'with' or 'or' — it's high crimes and misdemeanors," Trump said. "There was no high crime, and there was no misdemeanor, so how do you impeach based on that?"
Plus stating that the courts won’t stand for impeachment when in fact the courts have nothing to do with it.
Digging out from under his pile of misquotes, uninformed interpretations and convincing (to many) tweet storms of lies will once again focus the process on unraveling his hocus pocus rather than the facts supporting his impeachable offenses.
Why wasn’t Trump indicted by the Special Counsel? Because the SC couldn’t.
Why isn’t Trump being impeached? Because the House wouldn’t.
Why may Trump be re-elected? Because the wouldn’ts couldn’t decide if he shouldn’t.
Impeach now or move on. Time is on his side.
It seems to me that there will be no impeachment, that Trump will be easily re-elected, and that we will have to do our best imitation of the Italian people under Berlusconi: Ignore the corruption, ignore the buffoonery, ignore the venality, and get on with our lives. Six more years will not be the end of America, although it may be the end of the Republican Party.
@Larry Bennett
It will be hard to ignore the impossibly blooming deficit, the gutting of social programs, the assaults on minority and women's rights, the loss of working class power, the pollution of the climate, and the possibility of new wars.
If we don't impeach this guy then the concept of impeachment might as well be taken right out of the constitution.
If not this guy, then who? If this guy hasn't satisfied the bar for impeachment, then what is that bar? Does it even exist?
Sure, beating him at the election box will "help the country" heal, whatever that means... but it also means the next guy can do anything... literally anything.
The message we are sending the world about what our democracy actually means... and the message we are sending future politicians about how they can behave...
And frankly... everything else is the diversion... not impeachment... if Trump really is in bed with the Russians, and most of America believes this to some extent... then every action he takes must be viewed from the standpoint that he believes his action hurts America and/or helps Russia. That idea won't go away just by sweeping it under a rug.
And none of this even touches "obstruction" which he did on national TV, from his own mouth... we're to believe that the only thing prosecutors look for when dealing with obstruction is "intent"... how much more clear does that intent have to be than words from his own mouth? He told us his intent... explicitly...
He's a criminal and unfit for office and if we don't hold him to legal account we are no longer a democracy. Regardless of what that does to the "culture of the country".
At least our laws will be safe.
3
No crises pulling us together? Think climate. Think air pollution. Think loss of decency and respect.
1
I'm a life-long Democrat. I loathe Mr. Trump and his cronies. I'm looking forward to the election in 2020 to see him leave office compelled by a landslide victory by the Democrats. I am not however, "slouching toward impeachment" or rushing either.
Frankly impeachment is going down the rabbit hole and assuring victory to Mr. Trump. Trump thrives on chaos and if the democrats chose impeachment rather than focusing on the issues that brought Mr. Trump to office, they will be devoured. Trump will pounce on a misguided, distracted and impotent party that just can't get its act together.
The only thing that can effectively remove Trump from office is an overwhelming turnout by Democrats who are focused solely on winning.
That means Democrats will have to clearly address the issues that brought Trump victory. Trump focused on illegal immigration, unfair and illegal trade practices of China, Canada, Mexico and other nations. The struggling members of the former and current middle class that were devastated by the loss of jobs, home and their own and their children's future hear Trump and believed him. Trump also revealed the great unfairness of Obama Care and in his clumsy, chaotic fashion made his views ring home.
Now Mr. Trump, once again in psychotic frenzy is making China think about trade and relations with the U.S. He's doing the right thing the wrong way but his base buys in.
Impeachment is a dead end. Democrats need to unify to focus on what is necessary to win.
2
Fear of proceeding with impeachment results from predictive bullying. 1) Stand up to bullies; 2) Don't put too much stock in predictions, especially of the future, as Yogi Berra never said.
"After this presidency, will we ever be able to recover a sense of solemnity in our politics?" I have to believe that the next president (anyone but Trump) would have a sense of self respect, dignity and possess a soul. To think that the bar on the behavior and competency of the presidency has been forever lowered, is to give up any hope for the future. I am basically a pessimist when it comes to our leadership's qualities way before Trump. His re-election may force me to move out of this country or into a deep depression. As a liberal, it's exactly what Trump would want to happen to us. Resist his madness. I hope we are smart enough to resist his madness and not give into his baiting tactics. It's the only choice we have.
After careful consideration of facts and with deep respect for Nancy Pelosi’s political strategy, I now fully support a House impeachment action. Shine a national spotlight on all the dirty deals, lies, manipulations. But most of all, put a permanent smear on the Trump name for the rest of recorded US history. It’ll drive him crazy. Branding GOP Senate members as corrupt shills for big money is just a side benefit.
7
I’m with Nancy. Those who favor impeachment need to put into one short sentence what the justification is. Nixon orchestrated a break-in of the DNC, that is clear justification. Clinton had sex with an intern and lied about it. That is not justification for impeachment.
Trump had, and still has, vast business interests in Russia. Russia saw him as their most compliant option and assisted on his behalf. His bumbling associates played a part but there is no evidence that Trump himself conspired. He did obstruct, but many reasonable people see his obstruction as a reaction to entrapment, similar to what Clinton did.
Keep the pressure on, subpoena Mueller, expose Trump’s tax fraud, vote him out.
@Johnny
With Trump, it would have to be a long, run-on sentence to delineate all the high crimes and misdemeanors.
You both assume there will be a 2020 election. With the daily disintegration of the rule of law and apparently the authority of the legislative and judicial branches of government, the trump party could decide to not hold elections and there will be no one to stop them.
1
I always enjoy this column because Gail and Bret just cut right to the chase.
We all know Trump doesn’t have a coherent thought in his head. But a few of his policies actually do make sense.
Whereas the blather coming from the Dems (and I’m one of them) can be the ongoing script for SNL. Reparations? Prisoner voting? Public insurance only? Socialism?
The young kids screaming “Bernie, Bernie” remind me of the 1960s protestors (yeah, I’m that old). They now work on Wall Street or retired to Boynton Beach.
Don’t even think about impeachment. It’s a losing platform.
I still can’t believe Hillary lost to this lightweight, but he’s gonna win again.
1
What’s your problem with the Golden State Warriors? They were a losing team for decades, a bunch of nobodies, but then the team brought in coach Kerr and a group of guys with a right mix of spirit and skills, and the team started winning... and winning. What’s not to love about a turn-around story?
How soon after the turn-around would you prefer for them to start losing to make them like-able to you? It’s absurd. Let them keep scoring and performing and providing delight to fans for as long as the pixie dust permits. Go Warriors!
80
@Margaret Thanks Margaret you said eloquently what I was about to type in. Why on earth does Bret hate the Warriors. and worse why does he think the whole country does? Any team that plays through injury as the Dubs did in Game 2 deserve admiration, not jeers. Go Warriors!
8
@Margaret. Well, as a Trailblazers fan...........
1
@Deborah Our condolences to you.
2
What's the point of this? Senate will not impeach so it's a moot point.
@Ryan The House does the impeachment, not the Senate.
Is Trump daring the Dems to impeach him? Of course he is! And Dems like obedient lemmings are walking straight into the trap he's set. Pelosi to her enduring credit is trying to keep everyone's eye on the ball. But leftist zealots are determined to drive the party straight off the cliff. Impeaching Trump will facilitate his winning a 2nd term. The GOP won't lift a finger to help the Dems. They will let them engage in pointless committee investigations, divisive intraparty debates over impeachment. Much energy will be wasted. Lots of bad blood sown. Impeachment hearings driven by Progressive fanatics will certainly over-reach. It will be easily spun by Trump as a witch hunt to fair-minded voters. When impeachment fails in the Senate, Trump will again claim victory. And in the end we won't learn anything new. And even if we did would anyone care beyond the beltway pundits? No. This is a pointless political exercise. Trump will never resign. The GOP senate won't convict him. His supporters won't desert him. Trump knows exactly what he's doing. Trump's crassness isn't surprising, isn't it's carefully calculated & works quite well. It plays perfectly to his base & they love it, so he'll keep doing it as much as possible. The Democrats & mainstream press can rage & shout about Mueller report until there's ice on the equator. It won't change the mind of one person who voted for Trump. The more you complain the more he will rub it in your face. Isn't that obvious at this point?
The majority of Americans are in favor of impeachment - even if it does not lead to removal from office. If nothing else, it would be a great civics lesson for adults and schoolkids alike.
> No one is above the law.
> We don't have an Imperial Presidency.
> The stone-wall Senate will be held accountable in 2020.
> The Republicans may get the short, sharp, shock they need to return to their roots.
Why are we letting political cowardice trump Constitutional imperative? If the only thing stopping impeachment proceedings is fear of losing political office and perks, then those weak kneed Representatives should be schooled that political subservience is not public service.
1
“...Next time, let’s discuss whether there’s anybody on the political horizon who could bring us time-of-crisis solidarity without actually requiring the crisis...
Two words:
Michael Bloomberg
When you say that the senate wouldn’t convict Trump no matter what, you are setting a low bar. You’re letting people off the hook before they even do something bad. You’re giving them license. The Dems would need about 20 GOP senators to cross the aisle to support removal from office. There are 22 GOP senators up for re-election. Don’t be surprised when the Dems go for Impeachment in September and dare the GOP to not convict. At that point the whole party of Trump will be in the crosshairs. Then what? To paraphrase Reagan paraphrasing Dirty Harry, Make my day.
@Denis
The fine point on the "wouldn't convict" truism is "McConnell won't allow conviction". He is who has controlled the U.S. Congress and thus nation during two presidencies.
The broader picture is to examine all the current members of congress, under what steam they were elected, and which beneficiaries keep them there.
1
Arguing about whether or not to impeach in this case is like arguing about whether or not to pull a fire alarm even as the smoke and flames increase. Maybe it will just burn itself out some say. The firemen will probably get stuck in traffic. Who wants all those lights and sirens? Maybe it will rain and put out the fire.
What’s that you have in your hand Mr. Stephens? Are you actually toasting marshmallows on a stick? You like seeing federal agencies looted and vandalized? You like seeing the judiciary stuffed with activist conservative judges? You like seeing people alienated from government that’s supposed to answer to them? You have nothing to say about those Russian bystanders holding cans of gasoline?
Speaker Pelosi - you’re standing right in front of the alarm box. Stop counting votes and pull the lever.
1
@Larry Roth
And if Pelosi does that, Mitch McConnell and the GOP push back will be to create a larger issue - war, economic collapse - that the low quality news media and easily distracted American people will eat up with a spoon as they quake with panic and re-elect the incumbent Trump.
We've been here before with the GOP running that same scam: Nixon 2, Reagan 2, Bush Jr. 2...
It’s not even about Democrat or Republican anymore. It’s about being American or not.
Donald Trump has been an example of dishonoring so many things - law, democracy, Constitution, respect of country, our allies, on and on.
But mostly, Donald Trump has used Americans while lying and his focus on corrupt leadership. William Barr is his armed right hand man, the final blow.
Democrats can not only let down fellow Democrats. They cannot let down everyday Republican Americans who have lost their voice, too, because their Republican American legislators have remained silent and let them down.
You can't impeach Trump only because you don't like Trump.
The Russian collusion rumor was found to be completely baseless, over shadowed with possible proof that UFOs are alien spaceships.
Just think of what could really be done if you quit wasting time and money on an effort that reminds me of high school kids harassing a kid they don't like.
1
@mrmeat
Ah, so you're the one person outside of the Trump cartel that's read the Mueller report.
The disgusting "I" word will drive him up the wall and I believe we should start the hearings. I'm reading the Mueller Report and it's not going to make the summer reading list for most. We HAVE to have the "players" testify. Mueller has to be a force for good and state his case. Let's get this done immediately. We can drag it on all through the next year; win the Senate and then if he get's re-elected we can Impeach Him and have the votes.
How many more crimes and misdemeanors does Trump get to commit before articles of impeachment are written in the House? Why all this trepidation and fear about charging an obvious swindler and charlatan with the crimes he has obviously committed? Cohen is in jail. Manafort is in jail. Flynn will wind up in jail. They all aided and abetted Trump. Trump fired Sally Yates and James Comey when they refused to help him "cover-up" his crimes. What more evidence do the Democratic leaders need?
And the debt from the tax cuts for the rich don't matter because a Republican did it.
1
The general assumption seems to be that Trump is vulnerable only to criminal prosecution by the federal government and, since Justice Department policy, not federal law, prohibits such action, that the president cannot be exposed to impeachment because he is immune from Federal criminal law as long as he is in office.
The constitution makes no such distinction.
The president is liable to be criminally prosecuted in ANY jurisdiction on any lawful charges arising our of criminal behavior in the relevant jurisdiction.
Mr Trump has businesses in multiple jurisdictions and he has residences in multiple jurisdictions.
When the evidence calls for prosecution and he convicted, wherever in the US it takes place, the constitutional requirement for impeachment may be satisfied.
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but are most surely turning.
We cannot know, right now, what kinds of charges are out there.
The state of New York is active on several fronts. Trumps New York state tax returns are available to New York prosecutors as are his bank records. His main bank connect is Deutsche Bank, which has already been prosecuted and fined for money laundering.
Other jurisdictions are also investigating possible criminal violations.
For the rest of us, it is probably best just to relax and the the various elements of the US criminal legal system do its work.
3
@Meta1
"Behind every great fortune lies a great forgotten crime."
- Honore de Balzac
1
Do not give Trump an impeachment win in the senate prior to the election.
1
@ndbza
But do conduct the investigation and, just before the election, after all the findings have been aired publicly, take a House vote on impeachment and show the true colors of each GOP representative.
Don't get mad, get even. Patience and strategy will bring him down without impeachment, and hopefully with a long and well-earned prison stay.
4
No, no, no! Do not impeach.
Pence will be worse. He is genuinely ultra-conservative and fundamentalist in religious beliefs. It would place more power into the hands of that group determined to send women back to the days of no authority.
Be patient, get out and vote, then wait for the criminal charges from NYC to take him down.
1
It is admirable to try to understand and reason out the behavior of a president who appears to lack not only common sense, but common knowledge, common ethics, and common grammar. Sadly, understanding and reason have no meaning in the current debate. Trump's supporters are happily stabbing out their own eyes and closing their own ears so they can rationalize supporting this obscenity of a president. Trump is the infection, but the body politic is the source of that infection. Forget impeachment; hope for the ballot box. Then abandon hope.
Pelosi is handling this perfectly. Impeaching Trump at thus stage would be like scratching your poison ivy. Feels good at the time but turns out to be counterproductive. An acquittal by the Senate, which is a foregone conclusion, would deflate and deenergize the Democrats and reenergize the GOP.
1
Quick! Someone hire Bret Stephens to run their campaign! He understands the damage Trump has done and what we need to do to get rid of him!
When the Don says to the Congress "If you don't stop investigating me, I won't sign any appropriations bills or raise the debt ceiling, bringing economic ruin to the world" what will they do?
The ONLY thing Trump cares about is not going to jail. And he will do anything to avoid it.
Never give into a bully.
1
Two points: The economy was very strong under Pres. Clinton, and I don't recall Republicans hesitating one bit to spend seven years trying to get him on something, and resorting to impeaching him over a sex lie in a "meritless" civil suit which was funded by his enemies (imagine Republicans if a sexual harassment suit with no evidence of harassment so thrown out for having no merit was thrown against Trump and funded by the left equivalent of Richard Mellon-Scaife and John Whitehead, rabid Clinton haters, and promoted in the media by the likes of Lucianne "We got him!" Goldberg). The only reason Clinton wasn't convicted was because Republicans didn't convict him because it was merely an exercise in actually harassing and humiliating and weakening a Democratic presence, which is the playbook of the GOP. If he'd done what Trump has done, he would have been convicted, by Democrats as well, and moved from office). Second, on the one hand, Stephens legitimizes the childish culture of the GOP and Trump Cult and their support for Trump because he "owns the libs" by saying they're correct because Trump makes the left go nuts. But then he says, as if it's a separate thing from "libs going nuts" that Trump is doing incalculable damage to our political culture (not to mention to our reputation in the world, the rule of law and the Constitution). Maybe the "libs go nuts" because of the damage Trump is doing, Bret? Maybe the left rightly sees him to the threat to democracy he is.
Regarding sensible gun control: I concluded after Sandy Hook that we, the people, want these mass shootings. If we didn’t want them, we would hold our lawmakers responsible for stopping them. But in the same way that the right wing opposes abortion, they support mass shootings. I guess you gotta control population growth somehow.
A full impeachment investigation, with public hearings and witnesses on TV, showing obstruction of justice by Richard Nixon regarding a domestic attack on our election system by his allies, were part of what made Nixon go to pieces.
A full impeachment investigation, with public hearings and witnesses on TV, regarding a private affair that did not have any bearing on how our country is run, was what gave Clinton his rebound in the public eye.
A full impeachment investigation into Trump, with public hearings and witnesses on TV, showing more obstruction of justice by Trump regarding a foreign attack on our election system, and emoluments violations, and other lawbreaking, and horrible leadership, is not likely to fall near the Clinton end of potential resolutions.
We should all hope he has a great fall and a great winter, spring and summer.
We have a most unserious president who thinks lighting a match close to Armageddon is the sensible thing to do. And where trusting our enemy, Putin, is the right thing to do...while blasting our own 'intelligentsia', as a matter of routine. How irresponsible can that be, always at the edge of a precipice we may not be able to run away from? Is Trump creating a crisis, and chaos, at home, for lack of externalities to divert his ultra-short attention span from a deadly routine, attacking the messenger depicting his misrule?
Everybody knows that Republicans have threatened to not vote for impeachment. That’s not the point. The intention is to present evidence to the American people in a public forum. If Republicans want to vote “no” after that, they’ll be impeaching themselves and Democrats gain the majority in the Srnate.
BTW- it’s “Democratic” Socialism. And it’s successful in many countries.
the more heinous and greater threat to our political system is how this whole russia hoax and spying started in the first place.
NOT if trump barked and threatened an investigation he knew was a witch hunt. lets investigate the former and leave trump alone for now.
“Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him.”
People keep saying this without any evidence to support it. Since when was impeachment a good thing?
“Impeachment will divide the nation.”
We are already divided. The GOP exists soles to oppose Democrats. Their only remaining platform plank is spite.
But those things don’t matter. The President has broken the law egregiously on many occasions and he is a threat to our institutions, our democracy, and our constitution.
If the GOP fail to convict, do what? That’s on them. But make them go on record as selling out our nation for a brief respite of power.
2
@Kurt - There is no evidence. Trump, and even the democratic party, have spread this idea. And, quite honestly, I don't care about how impeachment affects Trump's reelection hopes; Trump's corrupt behavior left unchecked will set an absolutely horrible precedent, violate Congress's oath to the Constitution, and will encourage Trump to do worse (much worse).
2
It occurs to me that the only truly egalitarian thing about Trump is the indiscriminate stain he leaves on everything and everyone he touches.
3
This was one of the more disappointing conversations between Gail and Bret. Impeach Trump? Of course not, for obvious reasons. Launch an impeachment inquiry of Trump? Mos def, just to add weight to subpoenas and document requests that are now being ignored.
Impeach Mnuchin or Barr? Why not? Doing so would certainly highlight the lawlessness, corruption, and complete toadying within the Trump regime.
Do nothing? Not acceptable to any Democrat except Nancy Pelosi, who at this point has clearly forgotten her own oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
Seriously, the Democrats need to subpoena Mueller and get him to state, in plain English, what his report only strongly alluded to: that Trump committed criminal acts. That would be a start.
1
Let "the people" impeach President Trump in 2020. Investigate the worst offenses and expose them, while passing legislation on healthcare, guns, voter rights, campaign reform, and criminal justice reform. Pass it over to the Grim Reaper of the Senate. Swamp McConnell with legislation, so we can all watch as he and his party of know nothings and do nothings do what they do best: nothing.
1
You assume there will be an election in 2020. That is not assured with the trump party eroding authority outside the presidency.
I believe it's time to give up on the idea of impeachment, but please tell me that this creep trump will face charges after he is out of office (hopefully in 2020), be convicted of serious crimes, go to prison along with his family and stay there: no pardon possible.
Also, the impeachment process will take longer than the rest of his first term at this point. The main objective should be to put this fool behind bars.
Of course though, if it is found that he betrayed the country, it is only fair that he face the death penalty like the Rosenbergs did in the fifties for betraying us.
2
I think we ( the resistance) should Protest Trump by picketing the White House with John McCain posters, hanging giant images of McCain in locations where trump will have to see them, reminding him that he is the inverse of this honest, hero.
1
Impeachment is not going to happen. But what will happen is that our great President Trump will win in 2020
Bret and the Republicans are fooling themselves if they think the average American is glowing about the economy. That thing called "wages," let alone benefits, just isn't keeping-up with the cost of living. I guess the GOP could adapt FDR's old campaign marketing pitch to "a chicken leg in every pot."
2
I will look forward to former President Trump's court dates after he is out of office. BUT before we get there we need to ensure he is not re-elected and gain some seats in the US Senate while holding a majority in the House of Representatives. A great set of goals going forward; pass disaster relief no later than June 10th, pass a infrastructure improvement bill no later than July 4th Speaker and send one piece of legislation defining what all American's need to the Senate each month. Let the Senate and President Bush have the blood of America on their hands right up to election day 2020. Speaker Pelosi lead or resign.
Question (quoted): "Is there some formula where people actually start to notice the cumulative cost? Or are we doomed to live with this?"
Answer: The unfortunate fact is that almost nothing will be done unless or until there comes a time when gun violence claims as many lives as cancer does.
1
If nothing else, impeachment proceedings might serve an educational purpose for the (large) fraction of the population who seem to have been hoodwinked into believing nothing bad happened.
3
impeachment..... I would love to see the house move ahead even if the senate was a roadblock...... but at this point I don't think the democrats could manage it properly. decisive they are not.
I know I only have the 30,000' view but:
1. the mueller report has been out for almost 8 weeks..... why has he not been compelled to testify?
2. why wasn't he in line to testify even before the release of the report?
3. why haven't subpoenas been the method instead of the last resort in getting trump people to testify? it's not as though anybody thought they would do it willingly.
democrats do not understand the need for clear decisive actions. most people understand that if something is a crisis? you act like it otherwise all of the talk starts to sound like political gamesmanship.
3
impeachment..... I would love to see the house move ahead even if the senate was a roadblock...... but at this point I don't think the democrats could manage it properly. decisive they are not.
I know I only have the 30,000' view but:
1. the mueller report has been out for almost 8 weeks..... why has he not been compelled to testify?
2. why wasn't he in line to testify even before the release of the report?
3. why haven't subpoenas been the method instead of the last resort in getting trump people to testify? it's not as though anybody thought they would do it willingly.
democrats do not understand the need for clear decisive actions. most people understand that if something is a crisis? you act like it.
"Next time, let’s discuss whether there’s anybody on the political horizon who could bring us time-of-crisis solidarity without actually requiring the crisis."
You don't think we've got a crisis now?
Clearly you don't understand the voters whose crisis is to pay the next bills coming due. To pay the mortgage or rent, and keep the electricity and heat on, and keep the car running, are important. When the voter couldn't cover a $400 emergency, that is a crisis to that voter.
Democrats lost for their failure to understand that we have a crisis, in the minds of those voters. Trump lied, but he did at least acknowledge it.
He can't be beaten if Democrats just do again what lost last time.
2
Bret says, “It is the collapse of moral judgment before the blandishments of political power.”
A perfect description of Trump’s astonishing success—with Republicans, evangelicals, miners, and, yes, conservative intellectuals.
4
@Victor -- Yes, that is also what Democrats did. They put donor money and power for insiders above the calls for change led by insurgents in their party.
They didn't make Bernie VP and promise progress. They made a right winger VP, and promised more of the same just to keep power.
Power will go to those who promise change, and if both do, to those most credible. If only one does, they get away with lies again.
This 'conversation' is based on a false premise best illustrated by this quote "I’d like to think future generations could look back and say — hey, the American people wouldn’t stand for a president attempting to obstruct justice. So they got rid of him." If that was our criteria, we would never KEEP a president. They have all tried to cover their tracks. You can have your next conversation detailing them from the most recent ( and you might take a moment to check out Mrs.Clinton as well as Mr.) and heading all the way back.
Power corrupts. The difference with Trump is that we are hyper sensative to his every move and our need to prove him evil haunts our every thought. My opinion? Get over it and support a Democrat who is capable of winning and doing a better job ofleading our country - if you can find one.
1
Impeachment is a long process ill-equipped to what I see as an immediate crisis (an actual emergency, compared to Trump's faux emergency). Trump is tearing down the pillars of our democracy faster than an impeachment inquiry can proceed, and stalling as long as possible because that's how Trump became Trump and what he knows best. Now he effectively has the DOJ in his pocket thanks to the GOP confirmed him. The GOP who sit there and defend, or even worse cheer, his success at eroding our norms. Who are these people who defend this classless, immoral, petulant dictator? They are not Americans - they are traitors to our constitution. Without McConnell, Graham, et al, and Trump's state TV, Faux, Trump would be well on his way to being kicked to the curb. And lastly, Americans have to be the laziest, poorest educated, least engaged voters in what was the leader of the free world - Americans push aside the unbiased Mueller report and rely on their political bias to tune in to what they want to hear. Just like Mueller said, it's all in there, if you can read, objectively, and actually care about our country. The youth of this country had better get off their social media, tweeting, and other fluff, and realize their entire future is being completely remolded by Trump and his enablers.
6
Gail notes that a key difference today is the way social media operates as opposed to traditional media, which is legally responsible for the content it publishes.
Federal law (the Communications Decency Act) exempts social media giants from the responsibilities that traditional media must abide by. Ending this giant loophole would do the US and the world a great deal of good.
Social media companies should be held responsible for what is published on their platforms the same way traditional media companies are held responsible for what they publish. Let social media companies get sued for liable, slander, defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, invasion of privacy, etc. Online discourse would improve and the bogus stories and foreign government interference in elections would decline.
2
You must impeach.
I would venture that because your Presidents and Counsellors have NOT been held accountable since the Second World War ( other than Nixon and Bork, which the current Republican Party will never forgive the Democrats) that this president is the result of years of economic and military crimes not being prosecuted.
And so the brazen and mendacious turn larger chunks of civility into chaos and individualism.
By not Impeaching Trump the US is like the kid who kills his parents and begs for mercy cause he’s an orphan!
1
If Democrats don't impeach because they believe it is a political loser, they are of the same mode of amoral, unconstitutional, winning is everything thinking that is the eternal shame of the Republican Party. And if they don't impeach this one (assuming there is one, in a country that no longer punishes those in power for their crimes and abuses) the next one will be far worse and even more willing to abuse and destroy in pursuit of absolute power and wealth. If we think Blondie is bad but let him off the hook for his crimes and malfeasance because it's inconvenient politically, we are dead already as a constitutional republic.
4
Bret -- if you mean by "Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy" that the no-nothing, proudly ignorant, narcissistic grifter-in-chief inherited a roaring economy from President Obama who rescued it from the abyss left by his Republican predecessor and it has continued on the exact same trends since, then by all means I agree with you.
7
Democrats need to show the public that they have the courage of their convictions when it comes to impeachment. The party has aquired a reputation of being all bark and no bite. They really have nothing to lose by making the accusations against Trump in the Meuller well known to every voter in America. An impeachment inquiry will force the public testimony of all the major players. Yes drop everything else since progressive legislation has no chance to pass Congress anyway. We'll see if the American public will re-elect Trump knowing he's a deceitful mobster. At least, the Democratic party will have done everything it could have to let them know that truth.
1
Pardon my pessimism on your two major points, gun deaths and gullible Trumpistas.
A graph on these pages earlier showed a not surprising correlation between gun deaths and number of guns. Ergo, to lower gun deaths, get rid of guns. It ain’t gonna happen.
Second, as long as Trump controls the info that his Mob reads via tweets and Fox, they will remain willfully ignorant of what’s really happening. E.g. Trump says tariffs are good and paid for by China and Mexico not American consumers, so obviously that’s what Trumpistas believe. And you can’t ignore the perverse thrill the Mob gets when Trump tosses out vile, junior high labels on any member of the hated “ other”.
It’s a sad comment on how far into ignorance and hate 40% or so of Americans have fallen, but the evidence is stark and real. When a reporter asks why we celebrate July 4th and from whom we gained independence and the silly, oblivious smiley faces go blank, my pessimism is confirmed.
2
Sure. Impeach him. Do it now! I'm a conservative. Nothing I'd rather see than that.
1
Dang, we have to stop having these superficial conversations regarding the state of our union. We are in serious trouble, when, almost on a daily basis, our three branches do not uniformly support the rule of law. The cabinet, which we count on to keep our government running, is riddled with ethics violations, questions-- NYTimes, you publish these investigations daily. And how effective has that been? Russia still threatens our democracy, and our Commander in Chief will not even admit it, and his party does not stand up to it, the Dems are afraid they might cause further division. The economy? You think its good? Read between the lines. Hey wait, are most people aware of how things are going? If only 41% of the people in the last CNN poll agree impeachment is necessary, it means the rest have not been educated on the erosion of our national security, policy or foreign relations. Yes, we have issues domestically to remedy. But don't you see? Nothing, nothing nothing will be accomplished unless we address the the corruption, the nepotism, the deaf ear. Just get the hearings started. Inform people. Fight back. Make noise. Push, enforce, respect the law.
6
Judging by the mounting evidence, impeachment is unavoidable. It's also the right thing to do. It's been shown that Republicans don't respect the Constitution or the rule of law, so it's up to Democrats to save the Union. As difficult as it is, political expediency should be set aside. Do the right thing.
Frankly, I'm convinced if Democrats proceed with sincerity, Americans will follow. The message can't be clearer. Laws were broken. Prosecution is required. That will fit on a bumper sticker.
1
Not even Collins and Stephens seem particularly interested in the topic of impeachment giving more of their attention to sports (the athletic type, and party politics, the other), school shootings, and virtually anything other than the topic at hand.
Their failure to stay on topic is another indication of the media's uncanny ability to change the subject even when events are spinning out of control. Impeachment, sir and madam, was the the question. Not censure, not deflections, and not favorite sports teams and their chances of winning a championship.
The real question is whether the Democrats in the House have the nerve to confront obstruction and the sledge hammer being brought down on to the institutiions of our government inckuding their own chamber and our Constitution. Unfortunately these representatives have a collective case of the vapors in refusing to confront Trump's attacks while recognizing their duties sworn to under oath.
This is not as they, the Democratic leadership would have it, a political affair they need to consider with great care and extreme caution. It is about more than their jobs and re-elections. We are watching our democracy crumbling while they dither and fret. Impeachment is the answer, not political careers and related self-interests.
Impeachment is essential for an important strategic reason, one I have never heard the Democrats put forward: each republican in congress must be forced, through the impeachment process, to emerge from their convenient and cowardly silence and go on record before the American voters to defend Trump’s specific breaches of the public trust: his lies, his obstruction, his abuse of authority, his intimidation, his failure to address pressing domestic as well as foreign affairs, his unbecoming conduct, his harassment of private citizens and his denigration of our closest allies.
As it stands now, Trump's enablers in congress have had the luxury of appearing as though they’re above Trump's mess. The impeachment process would force them to fully and openly defend not only Trump but also his corruption and incessant effrontery.
An argument never forced to defend itself is an argument won.
1
Censure motions are good; contempt of Congress motions are also good, especially against others than trump. What is also great: state (I'm looking at you, NYS and NYC) prosecutions for the obvious criminal activity of trump and his companies and his children; prosecutions against the financial institutions that enable his widespread criminality would be great, especially the threats of lifting licenses to do business in NYS. And impeachment: At least (and at most) it will further expose the GOP for what it is: collaborators of the trump crime syndicate.
1
The failing of Democrats at this moment is only addressing Trump’s ethical misdeeds (which, admittedly, continue daily) while doing nothing to reach out to the voters who elected him in the first place out of economic distress and anger. Democrats are becoming identified as simply Congressional committees. They need to broaden and connect all their work in service of the most at-risk Americans, which now sadly include the middle class and small businesses, thanks to the GOP.
Gail - I love your column but impeachment is too dangerous with a high potential to backfire. Let's just vote him out in 2020 - that is humiliation enough and gets the job done. The Democrats should clear the over-crowded field of inexperienced presidential wannabes and pick the most formidable candidate. IMO, that is Joe Biden. And Adam Schiff would make a splendid Vice-presidential candidate. "Return to Normalcy" should be the Democratic slogan in 2019 and 2020.
2
The idea that these times are trivial is not something i understand. We are in the midst of a global social crisis brought on by massive technological change. This has led to the increasing desire to maintain borders and exclude the "other" to protect what is believed to be "ours".
This has happened over and over in history and will happen again. You may feel that things are "really good" but they will soon turn "really bad". Our lines of sight and perspective have shortened. Turn off your device and take a long look.
2
If Nixon were our only president threatened with impeachment, I would say full steam ahead! But the reality is that Clinton was impeached for getting involved with an intern and that story will be repeated over and over and over again if this impeachment moves ahead. Exhibit 1: My college age son who didn't know about the Clinton impeachment or why it happened but since finding out has been on a tirade of saying that Clinton (he wasn't alive when he was president) was no better than Trump and everyone should leave Trump alone.
1
I don't often agree with Bret Stephens, but today he hit the nail directly on the head:
"Bret: Impeachment will not end Donald Trump’s presidency, since the Senate will never vote to convict. Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him. Impeachment will have to be based on an interpretation of the Mueller report that is, at the very least, contestable. Impeachment will further polarize the country and consume the country’s attention away from everything else.
And finally, if the real purpose of impeachment is to censure the president for his wretched behavior, why not just pass a motion of censure, as I’ve been urging for a while?"
That is it in a nutshell. I am growing tired of the self-righteous, sanctimonious voices on the left crying out for Impeachment, Impeachment!
There is only one way to get rid of Trump (and Pence and all the rest): vote them out in 2020!
I sadly agree with Bret that Trump has an advantage as an incumbent with a non-depressed economy. But I do not agree that the economy is healthy or thriving. In fact, a recession is very likely to arrive within 12 months (see: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/29/upshot/the-bond-market-is-giving-ominous-warnings-about-the-global-economy.html?searchResultPosition=6).
Either way, Democrats need to stay focused on the kitchen-table here-and-now issues of affordable healthcare, affordable education, jobs with living wages, infrastructure, and a clean environment.
3
The 2020 election currently favors Trump. However, that's not a good reason to run for the center. First, there's good reason to believe the economy won't survive through 2020. Storm clouds were already brewing before Trump's new tariff frenzy. Second, the economy mostly isn't benefiting the people Trump needs to win reelection.
A tight labor market is about the only thing for which the average American is grateful. If the economy were really so great though, labor participation wouldn't still be hovering at 50 year low. We've bumped a whopping 0.2 percent even in this "amazing" economy. This suggests once again the low unemployment numbers are a false statistic. Businesses are hiring but 40% of working age adults aren't even looking. That's not the sign of a healthy economy.
We're dealing with a structural issue that needs to be addressed very far from the center. That was the platform Trump ran on and failed to do anything about. His tariffs are effectively wiping what little benefit the tax cut provided the middle and lower class. The Trump administration has worked hard to prove Republicans will not share the benefits of economic growth. That's a point Democrats should make often and make loudly.
1
@Andy
I don't remember that Democrats shared any of the economic either. I don't like Trump but let us not pretend the voters are going to believe the Democrats on this issue either. Their track record to put it mildly is ......Poor. NAFTA or giving China MFN status ring any bells ? No the voters aren'yt likely to believe the the Democrats either. I surely wouldn't!
@Stephan
Barack Obama was a left-of-center moderate. Bill Clinton was a right-of-center moderate. If you're complaining about Democrats, maybe you should try nominating something other than a moderate neoliberal. We have to go all back to Carter before finding something even remotely left-leaning and more properly Kennedy and LBJ.
The policies you're complaining about were the outcome of Reaganism's mishandling of globalization. A precedent which Bush II later drove straight into the ground with China.
You need to pay more attention.
@Andy
You mean Bill Clinton didn't give China MFN or sign NAFTA? How confused I must be. Has I said let's not pretend that people are going to believe Democrats believe in sharing the economic gains because they most assuredly and for all their talk about sharing the gains and the losers helping the winners? All it is is talk. The Democrats have no more credibility on economic issues then Trump does. I had nothing to do with nominating Trump, Obama or either Clinton. The nominations are long over before my state has its primary. But pretending the Democrats are in less in the pocket of big donors then the Republicans is optimistic to the extreme.
Chris Hitchens argued that the failure to prosecute and jail Richard Nixon gave a green light to bad behavior in the executive branch and white collar crime in general. I think Brett is right to worry that impeachment will likely be a political bonus for Trump, but the cost of not going ahead will encourage even worse behavior from future presidents.
1
I agree with about half of what each of these fine columnists say on any given day, but I love everything about these bi-partisan, sane discussions. Wish they happened every week. This country desperately needs more informed, civil discourse between reasonable people who can disagree without hatred.
3
You don’t impeach, I don’t vote. That’s my new political motto. I elected you to protect the constitution and our democracy. How can you ask me to vote for you when you show me you won’t do that after you’ve already been elected? I don’t want to live in that world of hypocrisy.
4
@Sue
I get it, but who wins? Trump. Politics is about what's achievable, not necessarily what's desirable. Go ahead, draw a line in the sand, just like the Bernie supporters who didn't show up for Hillary, or the Nader supporters who threw away their votes in Florida. What could possibly happen?
12
@Sue, good news to hear indeed, for a Republican. We need more like you so that Trump will get re-elected.
1
That reasoning got us here in the first place.
People keep saying “No one is above the law.” Indeed. But the sentence should be “No one is above the law, especially not the president.”
10
@kathpsyche People are wrong then, if you have money anything is possible. Look at OJ.
@kathpsyche
Actually whether you are above the law? Well that depends how much money or influence you have. The more money you have the more justice you get. Let's not pretend that no one is above the or justice is blind. When for for example you can rape your toddler daughter and get probation as in the case of: https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/index.html
So someone tell me how no one is above the law Justice is blind. Because I'm not believing it!
The difficulty in looking at impeachment is not realizing what else you re all looking at in our current autocrat in the oval office – namely, someone without the mental capacity to be presidential. Trump takes me back to my experience as a chaplain in a forensic mental health prison. He always plays the inmate. Six of his associates are in jail. Conning is part of the gift. Barr is his latest associate about to be taken to task. Narcissism personality order is at the center of the storm and all the pieces you can start to pick up on for impeachment. So in a very real way, we are looking at the 25th Amendment that addresses the incapacity of one to fulfill the presidency. America does not deal with mental health. It now has a mental health crisis in its’ oval office. Many are afraid of stirring Trump’s base with proceedings – acting now like codependents around a bully. But I say that we are in for a rough ride between now and the election if you think what is at the center of this storm will be something we can ride out. We may very well find ourselves with a self-proclaimed dictator denouncing our election. After all, he is already betraying and functioning outside of the US Constitution – namely, by his ignoring the oversight of Congress. Both the 25th Amendment and impeachment belong on the table.
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@1blueheron waste of time and energy given the current composition of the Senate. Need to concentrate on winning Congress and statehouse elections instead.
Not really. Impeachment puts the ball in the Republican's court. If a strong enough case is made the GOP Senate will look weak and complicit. Republicans should be careful for what they wish for.
2
The reason he got booed was because he opposes social democracy. Ronald Reagan recorded himself on a record opposing socialism in the 1960s so that it could be played in living rooms across the country. He wasn't talking about Mao or Khruschev. He was talking about Medicare and Medicaid. I support Sanders, but if someone got up and said (as Elizabeth Warren, another favorite often does) that "markets work for some things" or "top down authoritarian state control of the economy is bad" I wouldn't boo. I would boo for someone who says we should dig our heals in and stop the slide towards (gasp!) Sweden, though.
I don't like the way right-wing pundits (that's what Bret is) mischaracterize what people are talking about when they say socialism. Start engaging the issue in a serious way. Capitalism has good points, but socialism isn't the end of capitalism, it's its compliment. We can't win the election against Trump by presenting an "Everything's okay but I like gay people and I have some black friends" version of liberalism. We need to confront serious institutional forms of racism and other discrimination, stand up for worker's rights, and fight for an environment not in collapse. Otherwise Trump will gladly pick off angry voters from our column with false attacks on immigrants and Muslims.
5
The economy is strong argument is becoming less and less an excuse for Trump staying in office. My guess is, as the Trump Presidency unravels, and more law breaking and moral offenses become known, that argument will take on a warped morality of its own.
Also, and while the economy does appear strong where I live, I read over, and over, how the economy in the middle of the country is not doing that well. In graphs, and averages, the expansion of the super rich is off-setting the diminishing middle class.
And last, but not least, Trump’s tariffs on China and building materials are starting to affect new and remodeling construction costs. In six months his Mexican tariffs will affect the cost of new cars and auto maintenance.
Republicans will have to recalibrate, if they are capable if it, that the economy argument does not forgive all sins.
1
"Impeachment will have to be based on an interpretation of the Mueller report that is, at the very least, contestable. Impeachment will further polarize the country and consume the country’s attention away from everything else."
From a legalistic perspective, the interpretation may be contestable (depends on what the meaning of "is" is!), but everyone knows, Mr. Stephens first among them, that Trump is as guilty as sin. What is more obviously contestable is Mr. Stephens' absolute confidence that impeachment will serve Trump and hurt his opponents. If they don't impeach him, we'll never know, but there's just as good a case to be made that the impeachment hearings themselves will expose Trump and force even greater missteps on his part, political and otherwise. No one can know what will happen. Punditry like Mr. Stephens' happens in a vacuum. Ramsay Bolton and Theon Greyjoy? That's rich. You know nothing, Bret Stephens.
3
Why would Brett think that the Impeachment be based solely on the Mueller Report and not also from evidence from the myriad committee investigations?
4
Trump is a symptom, not the disease. Our society faces seemingly intractable problems, and the Democrats have been unwilling to take them on. Trump, a known con man, talked about them, offered false solutions, and squeaked his way into office.
The economy is good because we're borrowing oodles of money. Never mind the millions of working age people who have dropped out, and the accelerated destruction of our natural resources.
TPP might have been a way to compete more effectively against China, but the Democrats didn't do a very good job of selling it. Meanwhile the American lower middle class relied on good paying manufacturing jobs. Those aren't coming back unless we close the borders and go all-out isolationist. What are they going to do, and who's going to pay them to do it?
We were making incremental progress towards C02 reduction, and we still are, but we aren't moving nearly quickly enough. Besides it was interfering with the Koch Brothers' bottom line. We still are making progress, but now the Federal government is no longer on board.
I could go on and on, but you must understand my point by now.
Their last statement about time-of-crisis solidarity is a bit of a problem because it's a crisis of identity that could make or break us. All those other crises are on the horizon and approaching, but this one is here now, and if we don't sort it out, what remains won't be anything like what we had before.
@mlbex East Germany and North Korea have been trying the full on isolationist thing and it's not bringing jobs or quality of life to its citizens. As Regan said, we have the quality of life we do in America because we can buy the best of everything (without tariffs) and sell our good world wide. That does expose workers to global wages and working conditions, but Germany worked around that by cultivating high end specialty manufacturing. It let the low end go, and unions are strong there. Anyway, we can throw a fit and raise trade barriers, but all it's going to do is raise prices. And when suburban women go to Walmart for back to school shopping and prices have doubled there will be a bloodbath.
1
@K: Please reread. I never advocated that we go isolationist; I offered it as an example of a bad option, then I encouraged the Democrats to figure out what those workers are going to do and who's going to pay them to do it.
@K: America already has a robust high-end manufacturing sector. It isn't nearly enough to keep the millions of lower middle class (ex) workers employed. We need to invent something else for them to do, and some method of paying them to do it. The drug wars do this to an extent; the sellers and their adversaries, the police, are all keeping busy. But the drugs and prisons cause lots of collateral damage.
But I digress. Bringing back low-end manufacturing is not an option. High end manufacturing is already here, but it won't scale to meet the massive need. We need to invent something else or put up with the next Trump.
At a low point in the dialogue, Bret observes, "Trump does make the left go nuts." Fortunately, Gail has a strong response to that simplistic observation. Bret recognizes that the GOP has come to resemble a cult, but it is not only devoted to defend and protect Trump; the "left" is demonized, and no effort is spared to misrepresent and derail policies that in any other country would be found on the right side of the center.
1
"Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy?"
For one thing, you're not in touch with all the people in this country who continue to struggle. And there's a lot of them. The "strong economy" has been great for those towards the top, but housing, health care, and educational costs have hit everyone else pretty hard.
And the economic story isn't over yet--much can happen before the election. If you have the stomach, you might want to check your stock portfolio.
3
"In 2016, a lot of voters may have felt they could enjoy the luxury of being cranky and polarized because there weren’t any crises calling us to pull together."
Global warming isn't crisis enough?? Passivity, our fatal flaw as human beings in that we are not able to take the long view, will be our undoing.
4
Bret's obsession with passing a 'censure' is thoroughly ridiculous — as if anyone in the trump administration or his primary enabler in the Senate cares in the least. You might as well come up with a mean nickname for him.
Still the distinction is not being made between an impeachment inquiry — which, as a televised event, would be immensely damaging to trump in a way that a printed report (which no one has read, including the AG) was not.
Moreover, it would range far beyond the confines of the Mueller report into other damaging territory.
Whether or not the Senate votes to remove is not the point: the Senate would have to answer for why they (the Republicans) did NOT find these charges to be sufficient for removal (the answer is obvious). And it would raise the question, just what actions by a president WOULD be sufficient for removal, if not these?
This along with the fact that McConnell needs to answer for why, when the House HAS passed bills for the benefit of the American people, he has stalled consideration of them. The problem is NOT that the Democrats are 'obsessed' with impeachment and doing nothing else. McConnell is the constipator of the system.
And a 'strong economy?' Ask the people of the Midwest -- the voters upon which trump relies -- how well that economy is going for them, especially with the tariffs. Ask the people with 2 and 3 jobs struggling to make ends meet how great the low unemployment figures are.
THAT is the case that the Dems have to make.
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@Doug Keller
Low unemployment IS especially great when one needs 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. It certainly beats the stuffing out of needing that second and theirs gig and not finding it. Been both places.
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@KBronson
I'm not sure I understand. Low unemployment does not mean that jobs are paying a living wage.
61
Take a look at economic growth through the Obama years and into the Trump: you will see no change in the rate of improvement. Why then is this TRUMPs economy?
80
I was not for Impeachment until I was. Before we go down that road, a good start would be to do what the Dems just called for Contempt of Congress charges against McGhan and Barr and continue to investigate Trump. Maybe throw in Mitch McConnell while they are at it.
Gail and Bret make very good cases as to why we should or should not. But Congress has not done its job of checks and balances and this is where it has gotten us, thanks to Mitch McConnell and former House Leader Ryan.
I dispute that the economy is red hot. It is for those who are already wealthy or are benefitting from the stock market. However that is short term cause and effect.
In the here and now most Americans are hardly making ends meet.
That has to do with both Economists and the Republican Politicians ignoring the fact that food has increased in cost in the past two years almost 40% for the ordinary person. Gasoline, heating fuel, electricity, rents and costs of buying cars and houses have also increased.
If the economy is not helping most citizens, how can you say the economy is red hot?
As far as the Democratic Candidates, I disagree that we need a Moderate. There have been two many financial problems, too many corrupt Cabinet members as well as the rest of the Trump Administration and some of the Republican Congress. Also too many threats to the Social Safety nets that are needed in this country. It is the work of the so-called Conservatives and some of the Democrats.
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@Jean
And you don't even mention the crisis of climate change.
A moderate Democrat as President is unlikely to act aggressively enough to deal with this issue.
A thorough, fair investigation which exposes the corruption of this administration and the Republican Party, especially if the Senate fails to convict upon impeachment, could deliver the White House and both houses of Congress in 2020 and provide the progressive leadership America needs to avert the worst consequences of current climate policy.
16
@Jean
2019 has not been a good year in the stock market. And please don't forget that many of us who own stocks are retired and depend on them for part of our income to supplement Social Security. The stock markets got a short-term boost from the ill-timed tax cuts, but the tariffs are countering that now. Bond markets are a mess, which is not a good sign for continued "booming."
I also dispute that food costs have gone up 40% for the average family. "The all-items Consumer Price Index (CPI), a measure of economy-wide inflation, was up 0.5 percent from March to April 2019 and is 2.0 percent above the April 2018 level." You can find more here: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/summary-findings.aspx
1
@David S
Speaking of climate change and candidates, Biden has not said a word about fracking. I guess he is fine with it, or maybe some of his backers are in the business. Credit card Joe could just as easily be Fracking Joe. Progressive, he ain't.
2
Textbook “socialism” is a specific ideology “mainstream” American left-of-center policy advocates reject. The incendiary term is being used as a cudgel by right wingers to mischaracterize what is an aspiration for progressives. What so-called democratic socialists believe in might be more accurately dubbed social democracy, akin to the policies of Nordic countries.
As Bernie Sanders has said: “Democratic socialism means (to me) that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy...So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don’t believe government should own the means of production… it means creating a nation in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.”
If agreeing with that makes me a “socialist” I guess I am, even if I’m not.
475
@Paul Berizzi Well, that's all fine and good, but socialism is defined as government owning the means of production. If you don't believe in that, then don't call yourself a socialist. And it might be a little more believable if Sanders was not on the record praising socialist Venezuela, which has shown us where socialism ultimately, and sometimes quickly, leads.
5
@Paul Berizzi
But the charter of the democratic socialist party calls for public ownership of all means of production and for centralized planning of the economy. I grant that makes it more Soviet than Social Democratic, I just don’t think that’s an improvement
3
@Paul Berizzi
Agreed Paul.
Thanks for stating so clearly.
10
We no longer have a sense of nationhood.
When the Congress was deliberating over whether or not to remove Richard Nixon from office in 1973-74 (that's 45 years ago), America, for all its faults, possessed a thought for itself, for its people (some of them, anyway), and for the general good. That no longer obtains.
Donald Trump has murdered someone on Fifth Avenue and his people (and his Republican Senate) cheer. That victim is us.
798
@Red Sox, ‘04, ‘07, ‘13, ‘18
We no longer have sense - period.
17
@Red Sox, ‘04, ‘07, ‘13, ‘18 spot on.
13
@Red Sox, ‘04, ‘07, ‘13, ‘18
Yes, Murdered we are !
Can we be resuscitated ?
Nixon, with all of his faults, in the end, DID act like a statesmen!
He saw the overwhelming evidence and spared the country the arduous task of impeachment with his resignation.
Trump has no sense of anything related to being a Statesmen.
He no sense of anything other than satisfying his own bloated ego - by any means - which of course includes destroying anything and everything in his path, including America and it's people.
37
I have a question (strategy?) that I haven't seen addressed yet. We have the 2020 elections coming up and if Trump wins, could he be impeached at that time? I presume yes as the offenses have not gone away. Why not continue to "slouch" towards impeachment and have a slow investigative process over the next 12-15 months with a continuing drip of information. Ideally Trump loses the election, but in the event that he does win, bring charges at that time. It's possible that the dems pick up seats in the senate in 2020 given the electoral map, though they'd still be well short of 60. Presumably they hold the house as well given the state of things. And maybe, just maybe some of the republican senators start growing spines knowing that Trump is lame duck.
It just seems to me to be a better strategy to wait, than to have this fall flat in the senate, which is a given. If things look bleak in the 2020 house elections, that strategy can change. But it seems to me to be a better long term strategy.
7
"I’d like to think future generations could look back and say — hey, the American people wouldn’t stand for a president attempting to obstruct justice. So they got rid of him." As Ms. Collins admits, that is why we have elections. Although it appears from the Mueller report that Trump committed obstruction of justice and his campaign may have unlawfully received help from foreigners, Washington politicians' overturning an election just doesn't sit right with me. Let the Democratic Party nominee convince us that we need to replace Trump with him/her.
Many of those who booed John Hickenlooper and other speakers likely complain about Trump's uncivilized behavior. Booing a speaker is rude and uncivilized. That said, his specific rejection of "socialism" was a buy-in to Republican talking points. Responding to accusations of X with "I am not X" looks weak and defensive. Many Democrats respond to outlandish Republican accusations in this manner, which is why they lose elections. As the saying goes, the best defense is a good offense.
1
Booing a politician is free speech and a way of demonstrating your disagreement with the statement. Why is this considered boorish?
1
Public impeachment proceedings are necessary after the Mueller report clearly demonstrated and elucidated why it could not bring a criminal investigation towards the President. In stunning letters according to the DoJ rule against indictments the President is Above the Law.
It is now up to our system of checks and balances to demonstrate that our national institution in whole is healthy enough and wise enough to be able to hold a rather inept President under intensive questioning in order to build a case for legitimate exoneration or not.
The fact that two and a half of our branches are currently thriving on the outright glee of conservative partisanship and a reactionary culture/identity war leads me to conclude that our nation is not capable enough to do what it must. Our least partisan officials are routinely cast as partisan and people with outsized powers in our government routinely cast necessary actions as partisan themselves.
Our very judiciary has been connivingly polarized so blatantly that the only solutions appear to be accepting that the court will now forever be viewed and partisan and elected by proxy.
This polarized partisanship is unsolvable. Meeting in the middle is bowing to a weapon wielding hostage taker and becoming part and parcel of their demands. Meeting with the same level of action is all that we can do regardless if they want to turn around and claim that we shouldn't fight the way they fight.
We must do this without fear of retaliation.
5
Bret Stephens seems to misconceive the nature of an impeachment inquiry. It should start with an investigation, a review of the most pertinent issues, the evidence for or against each accusation, and then, perhaps the drafting of a bill of impeachment, followed by a vote, first in committee, then on the floor. By the time the hearings are done, we will have a good idea of whether the nation favors or opposes impeachment.
9
@JJM
You are right on target. People can follow a story. On Meet the Press, Doris Kearns Goodwin stressed this point stating that everyone can follow a story that has a beginning, a middle and an end. If only the Dems would do this en masse most people would see where it leads.
I find it sad that so many won't read the Mueller report including our own representatives in government. Is it a commentary on our education system, our addiction to social media or just apathy?
1
I see the battle of the left and the right now as between plutocracy and Democracy. The Republicans have clammed up and got behind Trump because of greed and fear. They are reaping more money and it's addictive. As for the "forgotten rust belt, white folks" who are devoted to Trump, they have been fooled into thinking that they have less because of immigrants when, in fact, it's the elite capitalist/oligarchs who've been eating their lunch. Their tendency to blame people who don't look like them just makes them easy marks for the divider, Trump.
The Democrats/left are fighting for basic rights that more Americans used to have. They want jobs with living wages, equal pay for women, affordable health care, equal justice, good public education, a free press, honesty & accountability in government. Are these necessities, that make a country a great democracy "extreme" and "socialism"? Definitely not! Don't let erroneous labels weaken the fight for what is just and right for all Americans.
22
The fear of “socialism” is very odd because when you drop the label and talk about the actual policy proposals, they are actually quite popular with the electorate. For the last hundred years, anything that benefits the public at large gets tagged with that epithet. From Social Security to healthcare reform, from consumer protections to antitrust issues, there are those who would roll back the small advances of the past century to save us from the evils of having a robust and thriving middle class.
9
@RobtPost
"Labels" are Trump's delight! It means people don't have to think, they just accept.
History will look back at this time period, if America becomes an autocracy(which it seems to be headed toward rapidly), as one in which this country's leaders, media, and citizens abdicated their duty to do something to challenge the unethical, possibly criminal behavior of Donald Trump and his administration. I don't care if it is censure or impeachment, doing nothing pretty much guarantees that he will have a 2nd term and maybe more. But the 2020 elections will save us and the Democrat candidate will soundly defeat him and Trump will skulk back to his tower! We can't count on free and fair elections, anymore than we could count on the Mueller Report, to save us. We can't even count on the norm of Trump leaving office if he's defeated. Russia and other foreign powers may well have the last word in 2020 and beyond because we have not challenged their interference in our elections. And these powers seem very happy with Trump indeed. Unfortunately, doing nothing but passing bills in the House that the Senate won't vote on and pinning our hopes on a landslide win in 2020 seems to be the Democratic strategy. I hope they're right and know things I don't know, but I'm dead afraid they're wrong.
10
Impeachment going into 2020 is a non-starter because Mitch McConnell will never allow an impeachment trial to take place. There a number of strategies McConnell could use. The simplest is just to Merrick Garland any Articles of Impeachment passed by the House with a "let the voters decide" declaration. That strategy will turnout Trump voters and help Republican Senate candidates in all but the Red States.
11
@OldBoatMan
Impeachment is a political move. Trump's critics believe it is much more. They are mistaken. As a political tool, Pelosi is wise not to use this weapon to shoot her own party in the foot. The problem, of course, is the obsession of Trump's critics with removing him from office. They actually believe it is doable. If they could just...whatever.
4
I read this article and ended up remembering why I wish I had had a sister. Sometimes the worst of times can be made bearable with the company of a caring and perceptive friend.
Growing up in a massively traumatic and unpredictable alcoholic family, I learned the wrong things, like shutting down and shutting up, like not trusting anyone, like not having hope for tomorrow. You know, like how many of us feel every day when we read the NYTimes.
But in this article, Bret and Gail visit and clearly are allies in a time of fear and abandonment. May that spirit last and grow.
And, as a socialist, I don't care about impeachment, I do however care about the election of a new Republican Party, folks like the ones who ran the country during Eisenhower's time, when the tax rates rose to 70% and there was a draft.
They say we will get through this, but I am here to tell you we simply won't unless there are a lot more conversations like the one in this article. Trauma multiplies, just ask those like me who ended in mental hospitals and rescue missions. Trump is doing great harm to the poor and the alone.
Hugh
569
@Hugh Massengill: There is hope, Hugh, and it gleams. You survived. Your contributions cannot be minimized. I hardly agree with Bret Stephens and mostly agree with Gail Collins. What they do, in tandem, is agree to disagree; it’s civility and it’s eminently civilized. They can concede, without the obligatory rancor that is/are our times, the other’s viewpoints. After President Obama departed, most of that vanished. As far as your personal situation goes, you can’t outrun your shadow; it’s always going to be yours. But you’ve shaped your shadow into something enduringly positive. Be glad for your victories—they are many.
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Hugh, this is one of the finest comments I have read in the NYTimes in a long while. And you are absolutely right, Trump is doing great harm.... I think it is obvious to those of us who have an open mind and an open heart, and we see, right before our eyes, every day, the “shutting down and shutting up” that MUST be taking place among those who call themselves Trump supporters. It is hard to maintain hope for the future in all of that. Do good guys really finish last? Let’s hope not.
112
Trump - with the Republicans backing him all the way - assaults not just a framework of laws, but the existence of empathy and compassion. In him, the worst aspects of uncontrolled capitalism have found an avatar: he seeks to diminish the humanity of anyone who doesn't have wealth and power. If a leader suggests that some people are less human than others -- well, it doesn't have to lead to pogroms; it can be through cutting programs such as Medicaid and SNAP, Medicare. It's about caring for the wealthy and trying to make the poor disappear.
In some ways Trump resembles a dry drunk, in a constant rage against everyone he blames for his gnawing discomfort with himself. The fact that he got elected is frightening, as it signifies how many people see his poses as signifying strength.
So anyway, an insightful comment. Trauma can multiply. It will take voting better people into office to turn this ship around.
72
Just for once I wish the allegations of becoming a Socialist were met with the response "we already are". We have socialized fire departments, police, highways, schools, army, navy, water and sewers and much more. The conversation should be whether the market place is working for a particular function. Is it working for healthcare? Post high school education?
Dispense with the inflammatory language and name-calling and we can better solve problems. But, of course, name-calling raises more money.
743
@Scott K. Really? What industries has the government taken over?
3
@Jackson I don’t know of anyone who is advocating the nationalization of anything outside of health insurance and that is only because of the free market’s failure to make access to healthcare available to tens (hundreds(?)) of millions of Americans.
55
@Jackson
Plenty of states have state owned utilities. The government runs a mail/package delivery service called the Post Office far more efficiently and more affordably than their UPS/Fed-Ex counterparts. And unlike UPS/Fed-ex they deliver to every town in America and for far less cost. I can order a product from CA and get it delivered to MA in two days. UPS/Fed-ex take a week or more.
The problem is it seems no-one understands the definition of socialism. No Democratic candidate is calling fro true socialism. They are calling for Democratic socialism, a government that looks out for the general welfare of her people, as stated in the preamble of the Constitution. Bernie Sanders doesn't campaign on state owned industry but regulated industry to make sure workers aren't being exploited and the environment isn't being poisoned. The socialism boogeyman is a myth and used as a political tool to keep voters fearful. When polled with no political association large percentages of the polled are for quality public education, environmental regulations, workplace fairness, affordable healthcare, affordable college and a multitude of other first world nation quality of life issues. It's frustrating that the right wing has been allowed to co-op the definition of socialist democrat and make it a dirty word. Sort of what they did with "entitlements" The right is all for reducing "entitlements" until it hurts their own wallet. "Keep your government hands off my Medicare" comes to mind.
105
I usually greatly enjoy these discussions and this one was particularly good. I am closer to Gail politically than Bret but this time I agreed with Bret more than usual. And I think Dems need to listen to people like Bret very carefully. The ultimate goal is to get Trump out of office. It is by flipping voters like Bret that this can be accomplished. Not all Republicans are angry Democrat haters. We need the votes of these people to win.
So please stop and listen to them. A moderate candidate is the best opportunity to win their votes. And regardless of if you are a Bernie/Warren supporter or want someone more moderate, it is critical to vote for anyone but Trump so we can restore some decency to this country.
10
@NYC BD
Speaker Pelosi is trying to tell her leftwing that impeachment is not what they think it is, but they refuse to listen.
I am not sure that there are any crises that can pull us together. Long hidden animosity is now in the open, proudly displayed. More than a few of us are horrified when we discover that those, who we thought we knew well, are not merely uncomfortable around people who are different, but want to squash them like an errant bug with a few nasty names added for effect. This is not a difference in philosophy. This president with Mitch McConnell has torn the threads of our democracy. It will not be easily mended even with a crisis.
22
The presently-constituted Senate might not, right now, go along with impeachment, but let's remember that Trump's base simply doesn't know the facts because Fox News, their only source, has not presented facts. Just as many Chinese have no idea what happened at Tiananmen Square 30 years ago because the Chinese government has so completely censored any story about it, the Fox News base has not had any exposure to the actual news. What happens when that base finally do see the true story?
Nixon, at the moment impeachment proceedings against him started, probably thought he had a safe Senate until the overwhelming facts put the truth out there, and members of his own party turned.
But let's not just have the impeachment process look at obstruction of justice. Let's open up the finances, the potential frauds, the enrichments - the whole big bag of Trumpness.
Are we a Nation of Laws, or is this just another example of a member of the elite who gets away with doing whatever he wants? Before the election, Trump claimed he could murder someonein a street in front of others and people wouldn't do anything.
Pelosi should take a bold step and let's find out just how blind people are actually willing to be as facts keep coming out. People turned against Nixon; will they do so against Trump when their eyes are forced open?
And if Fox News does not reflect the actual findings of the committee, then it will be time to consider taking its license away, just as they did in the UK.
9
@JW Fox News is a CABLE channel. It does not need or use a government license of any kind to broadcast.
I wish it were that easy to shut off such a greedy, divisive and dishonest outfit.
Even a reinstitution of the Fairness Doctrine would not apply to CABLE news.
The whole justification for the creation of the FCC was the fact the broadcast spectrum is limited and owned ultimately by the public.
Cable has no bandwidth limitation, they can keep adding channels. Cable is not owned by the public but by private industry. Cable and the streaming Internet are not subject to regulation, in the same way, as is broadcast radio and TV.
@Norm
Then why not reexamine the nature of cable news as a public service?
Does Fox News not use satellite spectrum for any transmissions?
Look at what's going on with Facebook and potential fines against it!
1
While not a big fan of 'conversational editorials' I like the tone of the commentary.
BUT, I have to keep saying this because it drives me nuts; not a single Democratic candidate is running on a socialist platform. Not a single one. Socialism requires the state ownership of the means of production. Democratic Socialism requires the desire to get to pure socialism through democratic means.
Even the most progressive Democratic Candidate is not socialist. The are Social Democrats. Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist mixed economy.
The Socialist Party of America disavowed Bernie Sanders in 2016 because - he is not a socialist! The more that a fringe candidate calls his opponents socialists, the more political ammunition he gives Trump.
The longer commentators allow this misrepresentation of political association, the more it normalizes the attacks from the Republicans.
41
@Scott Reed
Amen!
Enough with the "Socialism" tags when the folks being discussed AREN'T SOCIALISTS !
1
Mitch McConnell has vowed to shut down any impeachment inquiry brought before the Senate. Constitutionally he can't do that of course. He's just trying to bully the Democrats away from it.
What he fears the most is actually having the president on trial; it would be riveting television like the 1973 Watergate hearings. And he is deathly afraid of having all his Republican senators having to vote their conscience. Even if they acquit, they are all subject to being accountable to their voters.
Ms. Pelosi should see that possibility and act accordingly. It seems she is playing a strong hand.
26
Thank you for this column, which is a weekly reminder that people can debate their sometimes profound differences in a rational and civil way.
With regard to the US economy, there is a good argument to be made that it even with record employment, the benefits are being felt by a small minority - many people are just scraping along from pay check to pay check and have very little to fall back on when the next recession comes, as it will, because it always does.
17
I can't believe that shutting down the country to extort money from Congress isn't a crime for which a president can be removed. And must more provable than this obstruction stuff.
22
If I have ants in my kitchen should I squish them? Or stop leaving the lid off the sugar bowl?
7
One, the Republican Party has not been “taken over” by Trump. He is just willing to say publicly what the majority of Republicans have been saying privately for my entire 60+ years. That Bret is embarrassed by that fact informs us as much about his small wing of the party as it does Trump.
Two, the inaccuracy in the gun control debate is so frustrating. Over and over again, journalists incorrectly state that “nothing changes” after the latest mass shooting. No. False. In the substantial territories of the US where all gun control is opposed, There is ALWAYS change after a mass shooting. The laws are changed to make guns and ammunition more available. Laws on where guns can be carried (and displayed) are loosened. Pre-ownership screenings and/or training are lessened or eliminated. Would that we were so fortunate that “nothing changes” was accurate.
33
I don't wish to hear any more about impeachment. Either or do it or don't do it, but please stop talking about it. I am a Trump ,supporter and wish that Trump is impeached because it will help insure he is re-elected. Enough said.
2
@NYChap
Yes, impeach or get off the pot. For a Trump supporter it's easy to see that democrats are merely stringing their angry constituents along, talking about impeachment but not actually doing it. This may work because that cohort seems not to demand results but rather viewpoint validation. As long as democrats talk about impeachment, they're probably safe.
2
Since when is affordable, quality health care for all “socialism”? I would have booed Hickenlooper for using such a loaded word. We don’t need another politician who relies on loaded words instead of well thought out policies.
Impeachment is a process to rein in a rogue President. It requires investigation, inquiry, deliberation, presentation, and, decision. If this be slouching, then so be it. Given the behavior outlined in the Mueller Report, Congress would be derelict in its duties if it didn’t start the investigation. Whether it calls what it is doing Impeachment or not, it is performing its duty by beginning investigations.
The news media and pundits are looking more and more ridiculous by trying to get Congressmen and women to commit to impeachment before the process. And why let Republicans off the hook?
13
We have to impeach President Trump. It doesn't matter that the Republican controlled Senate won't convict him.
We have to send the message that criminal Presidents will not be tolerated, at least in the United States. Maybe the US tolerates and even likes criminal Presidents of foreign countries like Russia, China, North Korea, The Philipines, Saudi Arabia ... the list is long.
13
@Milque Toast
"We have to send the message that criminal Presidents will not be tolerated,"
but if the Senate acquits the man most deserving of impeachment in American history, precisely the grifting demagogue manipulated by foreign powers who aided his election that the Founders feared, it does not send the message you state.
Hopefully ongoing investigations are convincing any Republican who has a shred of patriotism to put country over party and convict, but I am not optimistic that there are any such Republicans in Congress.
7
@Milque Toast. But after every Republican Senator, without discussion, votes against conviction doesn’t that send a message that criminal presidents will indeed be tolerated if they belong to the right political party. It appears that theFounding Fathers had an unrealistically high opinion of the integrity of those the people elect.
1
Trump does his best to ignore the American people (and the law), and we do our best to ignore him.
Sounds like a dysfunctional democracy.
16
Trump’s transgressions are so vast that three undisputed abuses of power, anyone of which would have gotten any previous president impeached, have disappeared from view:
1. He opposed the merger of Time-Warner with AT&T because of perceived negative CNN coverage of him.
2. He demanded an increase in postal fees for Amazon because of perceived negative Washington Post coverage of him.
3. He ordered the GSA director to end the plans for a new FBI building because of the potential development of a new hotel on the site of the old FBI building which would compete with his hotel.
Democratic congressional handwringing about impeachment is a depressing example of the failure of American leadership. This behavior is not what so many people worked so hard for during the 2018 elections. Congress must do its duty; open impeachment hearings and start itemizing Trump’s many crimes for all to see and consider before his crimes are covered-up and forgotten.
50
If there isn't a dollar sign attached to it, Republicans have no interest in dealing with it. Gun violence? Who cares...no one will get rich on that. Morals, ethics, presidential behavior? Ditto on all 3. When all this is over....all the cutting of environmental regulations, all the tariffs, all the tax cuts for the wealthy, all the ignoring of corruption, etc. etc.....The average American will have to take stock of where (s)he is then. Better off financially? Aspects of their lives that they have complained about for years (health care, education for their kids, retirement) addressed? Will all the hate they have concentrated and spewed to 'Make America Great Again" paid off for them? Or are they just wallowing in hatred looking for the next group to attack while their lot in life remains essentially unchanged? Addressing the environment and climate change? The cost of regulation will certainly outweigh the cost of flooded and/or destroyed cities, towns, farm fields, and homes. Won't it? In short....will they have gotten the attention paid to them they so pined for? Or will they just be a shadow under a red hat?
16
Slouching towards Impeachment will be a train wreck and so it will be in the interest of both parties and the nation to not get there. Few protesters outside Buckingham Palace enjoying sunshine and an outing do not represent all the British or Americans. It is wishful thinking to even think that Trump will have a great fall. Have you ever seen Trump walk down steps or ladders out of an airplane? If you are a careful observer like me, just watch how carefully he walks down steps, one step at a time.
3
@Girish Kotwal
"... just watch how carefully he walks down steps, one step at a time."
Bone spurs.
@Girish Kotwal
Who will be the democrat to break it to Trump's critics that impeachment isn't going to happen? What will happen to democrats if they find out democrats are not going to impeach?
@Girish Kotwal Appeasing Trump and his sycophants will bring nothing but disaster to Americans and the world. We need courageous people to stand up to the disrespect for our laws and Constitution and Trump's penchant to side with the despots of the world against our country.
I've been resisting impeachment, but it's very challenging to keep doing so. I think trump should be impeached for many things aside from the Mueller report - the general damage he's doing to the presidency is tragic and possibly something we won't recover from.
However, since the GOP has lost any sense of morality or duty to country, I tend to agree with Bret. If the Republicans in the Senate don't have the basic decency to care about our republic, then impeachment will be a dog & pony show trump will spin to his advantage. Censure him, but censure him for more than the violations listed in the report.
7
Gail, Bret and everyone else appear to overlook or neglect the fact that Russia interfered in our 2016 election and is still at it, and Republicans will do everything to suppress and corrupt the 2020 election in their favor. Everyone's expecting that the 2020 election will be our savior, but given the fact that Russia, America's enemies and Republicans in Congress are doing their level best to keep Trump in office, I personally think it's silly to expect that the election will be free and fair. Just as we all looked to Mueller to save us from Trump, we're all breathlessly hoping that the coming election will do the same. The fact is that Trump and his minions are doing their daily destruction NOW, and with every passing day they ratchet up the dangers. That's why I think an impeachment inquiry should happen. The public needs to understand Trump's crimes, because they won't read Mueller's report.
8
Bret asks, "Is there some formula where people actually start to notice the cumulative cost [of gun proliferation]? Or are we doomed to live with this?"
No Bret...to both questions. The people have noticed how the NRA and gun proliferation are killing Americans but the formula demands Republicans to care. Which they don't.
And, we are not doomed to live with this. We are doomed to die by this.
Which brings us to the question of whether to impeach or not to impeach? Since we are doomed by Republicans to dodge bullets, let's risk impeaching Trump and making Republicans go on record supporting a criminal in chief. May as well put all the chips on the table since we may die in next weeks mass shooting festival.
13
Impeachment is not only necessary but vital for the health of our nation and the longer Dems delay the more they look like faint-hearted ditherers who don't deserve to win the reins of government. Most Americans were against impeaching Nixon when that process began, and the tide turned the more they learned. Only half our populace is against impeaching Trump, and that tide too will turn if the Dems ever get their messaging right. As for Republicans in the Senate, they will consign their party to the dustbin of history if they don't do right by the nation.
15
I want impeachment. But...Though the House will pass it, Mitch McConnell will kill it, and Trump will proclaim vindication. And it will occupy much time and effort that needs to be spent to clobber these guys in 2020.
In addition to Trump, Mitch McConnell must be specially targeted to lose his job. No man has done more, since the election of Obama, to destroy the ability of our government to work.
I think the best plan is to keep the spotlight and pressure on Trumps misdeeds—but don’t forget to get Mitch too.
If the Dems had won the Senate in 2018 (which I grant was very unlikely), the impeachment would be a done deal already. We can’t be rid of Trump until we’re rid of this Senate.
17
I agree that the Trump Administration has done moral harm to the nation but I don't think it is irreversible nor new as Mr. Stephens alludes to. Rush Limbaugh riled up the right wing crazies during the Clinton era with all sorts of fascist propaganda before Fox News picked up the torch. Trump added an extra gross element but don't forget that Bush 43 and his war hawks led us into disastrous affairs for no reason and lied about them. The American electorate has a very short memory. I thought we were headed toward a better society under Obama and then the silent majority reacted with the Tea Party, the NRA stepped up the propaganda, Fox took the false narratives to a new level, and here we are. There are still decent humans in politics and the nation can change course after Trump as long as Trump doesn't listen to Bolton and start a war with Iran and as long as the US can survive these trade wars.
7
Democrats should adopt a 2 pronged approach. First, all the Democratic presidential candidates should make a pledge to unconditionally abide by PTOP--the peaceful transfer of power. And then they should demand that Trump take the same pledge. He won't do it. He'll say something like: "Sure, I'll agree to a peaceful transfer of power--as long as the election isn't riddled with voter fraud." And, of course, Trump's losing the election will, in his mind, be undeniable evidence of ballot stuffing.
So once Dems establish that Trump has no intention of leaving the White House after losing the election, they can then proceed with impeachment hearings for the sole purpose of educating members of our military--whom Trump will need to support the inevitable attempted coup--about all of Mafia Don's sociopathic behavior. AG Barr and Acting Secretary of Defense Shanahan can't be counted on to declare that anything Trump does is unconstitutional. Our best hope is for our armed forces to conclude that their president is crazy and his orders are not to be obeyed.
1
Trump offers a compelling message to a lot of people - who are apparently happy with just a message, and not all that analytical about the reality - and frankly, the Democrats don't.
And haven't. For a long time.
If they cannot see that satisfying the left wing of the Democratic Party is an excellent way to keep Democratic party votes and lose everything else, then what have they been doing since the last election?
Jettison the word socialism. It is a loser. Just because a lot of things we have that we love are "socialist" in nature, from insurance to Social Security, it is best to not use a term that a broad swath of the country sees as toxic. Show how programs help old white people, rural people, people who have lost all the jobs in their communities and live in dying towns.
And follow Pelosi's lead on impeachment and hold off unless something big comes along. It will lose in the Senate and lose in the polls. Trump isn't going anywhere, unless he is backed into a corner where resigning is the only way to save his business or possibly, although possibly not, one of his kids.
The GOP gave up on pragmatism and conscience, but they are still pretty good about living in the reality we have and manipulating it. Dems could learn a lot.
5
"Next time, let’s discuss whether there’s anybody on the political horizon who could bring us time-of-crisis solidarity without actually requiring the crisis."
If we don't have a candidate that strikes the fear of God into our citizens regarding climate change and the horrific damage it will do to our planet in the next dew decades...there will be no next time!
2
Mr Stephens tells us: "Impeachment is more likely to help Trump politically than it is to hurt him."
Perhaps...but as Mr Charles Blow told us a few days ago...the impeachment by Congress will be the second line on Mr Trump's obituary. And deservedly so.
5
Thornton Wilder's Our Town implies that "we never realize life while we live it" But the sighs of frustration among the thoughtful like our dear Gail and Mr. Stevens verify that we are well aware of the real time siege to our ideals perpetrated by the don and his enablers.
The conflict between the better angels of the ideals for which we fought on D Day and the messy demons of practical politics are giving us the willies on confronting the beast- but those windmills of La Mancha need tilting , if for no better reason than 'our hearts lying peaceful and calm, when we're laid to our rest'
5
Impeachment is enabled by the Constitution to deal with "High Crimes and Misdemeanors".
The case for trump's impeachment could not be clearer. If it's not used now, when? The Democratic leadership is calculating whether to impeach for politcal reasons, rather than whether it's the right and just thing to do. Forget about whether the Republican Senate would remove him from office - that decision is on them and they would have to defend it.
If trump is not impeached, we might as well forget that the process even exists as a tool for justice, only for political retribution when the balance of power allows it.
08:40 EDT, 6/04
25
@mancuroc
But the case isn't "clear." This is why a fixation on the Mueller report is misguided. It's not a blueprint for anything. It's merely Mueller's opinion, and if we've learned anything it's that his judgment has been muddled.
1
“But we’re not in any major international conflict...”
A nearly 20 year war in two nations far from our shores for no discernible reason that has allowed Russia and China to become ascendant military powers is a major international conflict.
15
@VisaVixen
Collins and Stephens forget the economic wars trump is waging against our allies and enemies alike. They forgot the conflicts in Venezuela, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan and North Korea.
But then, Congress hasn't declared war since June, 1942.
2
Suppose the House follows Nancy Pelosi's political strategy not to impeach so that Trump's reelection is less likely BUT he wins in 2020 despite this lack of impeachment. The Democrats will have lost it all, the 2020 election AND the moral high ground forever. > Impeach because it is the right thing to do. Do not avoid impeachment as a political strategy !
28
@Frank Heneghan
IMHO, the best strategy would be to start impeachment investigations and then slow-walk the process so there is no chance of convening a Senate trial before the election. That will make public all the dirt and, if the very last thing the House does is call a vote on impeachment, it will let people know how their own Congressman stands on the issue.
28
@lhbari This is a brilliant strategy !
@lhbari your strategy is what I hope Nancy is doing.
2
Simply do not understand such a statement that the Senate will never vote to impeach. My goodness even after hearing solid evidence. Do we have a Constitution or not! Just as frustrating as when it is reported how the SC will vote before cases are heard. What is the point of even arguing a case ?!
13
@Jeany
We have a corrupt and spineless GOP who defends Trump at all costs. To get 20 GOP Senators to vote for impeachment would require a miracle. They have no morals to stand up for any longer.
1
@Jeany
See McConnell, Mitchell, the man who abuses the Constitution and good governance daily. He and lady Chao are in it for the money, not to defend the Constitution.
@Jeany
In 4 words, his imperial Lord Mitch McConnell.
I need to give Bret credit for his remarkably sane position on gun regulation. We don't often agree on issues but his candor was a breath of fresh air in this column.
There may yet be a bipartisan way forward on this life or death issue. Thank you Bret.
2
Good points about gun violence, but the answer there is to stop gerrymandering. Ohio is about to pass a bill that will allow anyone to conceal carry without a license and without training, even if they have been convicted of assaulting a police officer. This is true. Yes, the vast majority of citizens support universal background checks and keeping guns away from domestic abuses, etc, but a tiny minority that lives in gerrymandered districts gets its way. They vote. Gerrymandering is essentially an affirmative action program for white rural gun absolutists.
16
Ok, let's go over it again, what history has taught us.
1-Yes, let the House start impeachment investigating against Trump start. It is their constitutional job. There is a ton of evidence in the Mueller report.
2-Make sure they have an ironclad case that a ton of lawyers agree with.
3-Don't over investigate, only bring in the key people to ascertain the facts. Don't turn it into a witch-hunt.
4-The key point now is to present the best case to the American public for impeachment (not even to republicans). If polls show a majority of American are for impeachment do it, if not don't do it because it could backfire and re elect Trump instead of getting rid of him. As Lincoln taught us you must have the will of the people on your side.
5-Assuming the public is against impeachment, nominate a moderate progressive that Americans want and defeat Trump at the polls or at the very least term limit him if he gets re elected.
7
Impeachment will be good for Trump.
There will be a trial in the senate and he will be "exonerated."
It will be a reality television show and he will not be voted off the island. He will turn it into a huge win.
3
@CLA
Trump's critics don't realize that every time he prevails, he is "exonerated", yet they insist on challenging him to battles they cannot win. They always believe it's the "right" thing to do, or at least they are able to convince themselves of this.
1
Every year or so on the 4th of July NPR gets radio celebrities to read excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, with voices augmented by a soaring soundtrack. It's very moving and effective - and I say that as someone who is not an American.
How about if a bunch of celebrities got together to read key excerpts from the Mueller report?
Would that change anybody's mind about impeachment? Worth a try. And who doesn't love celebrities?
That should get more people to hear parts of the report without all that tedious mucking about in legalese. Let's face it - the vast majority of people have not nor will ever read the Mueller report - or the Declaration of Independence.
12
@Ray J Johnson If you'd like the House of Representatives to dedicate another 10 hours to reading the Mueller report, have at it. I'm sure CNN and MSNBC will cover it live.
IF you want Mueller to testify in front of the House, I'm sure he'd be happy to read his own report and I'm sure CNN and MSNBC will cover it live.
If you want Robert DeNiro and Rosie O'Donnell to read the Mueller report on the 4th of July, have at it. I'm sure MSNBC and CNN will cover it live.
I'm shooting off fireworks, heading to the 4th of July Parade..and thanking my lucky stars that Hillary Clinton is not the President of the United States of America...proving once again..there is a God.
@Ray J Johnson this is literally being done this weekend I believe.
1
“Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy and incumbents usually get re-elected.”
Trumpian capitalism amounts to standard GOP tax cuts, standard GOP deficits, and ruinous tariffs that, if carried forward, will derail an economic expansion that began in 2009 and is tied for the longest in US history.
13
@NA
Exactly. But, if the Democrats are not careful, it also equals trump's re-election.
2
@NA
I think you mean the most prolonged recovery from a recession in history. Words matter.
5
@NA
Democrats like to sneer at tax cuts, but the 20% pass-through deduction is nothing to sneer at. It is a signal to small businesses that he's got their backs. His caution with respect to new regulations is also a signal that he isn't interested in regulating them to death.
If democrats want to compete they had better start talking about things other than bigger government because for small businesses that just means more work unrelated to their actual business and higher taxes.
1
The ultimate decision must be made by the electorate - gerrymandered and electoral college encumbered as it is. But it is the duty of the Congress to at least attempt to investigate the possibility of crimes and misdemeanors on the part of the White House so the electorate can be reasonably informed. It is admittedly risky, but it clearly must be done.
11
Impeachment should become more common than it has been. We've had a slew of mediocre or bad presidents since LBJ, and the American people would have been better served if we had gotten rid of two or three of them.
Electing a president is similar to getting married. It takes time to find out whether you made the right decision. Impeaching a president ought to be as easy and as hard as getting a divorce. There is a cost to both, but often the benefit outweighs the cost.
What is the cost to allowing Trump to stay in office until January 20, 2021? More economic warfare with China, Iran, Mexico? More children dying on the southern border? More people murdered by angry citizens with access to guns? Greater debt?
Look at England. Suppose Theresa May had a fixed term that extended another two years.
Impeachment is a constitutional tool for getting rid of an unsatisfactory public official. Let's not think of it as the sword of Damocles, and use it more often.
11
@Diogenes Amen! If any "ordinary" American does a terrible job at their place of employment, they're terminated. Why should we be so fearful of removing public officials? When they've acted in clear disregard for the law, then the decision is obvious. Trump needs to be fired.
While Trump has committed crimes, essentially those crimes are administrative, covering up sex (campaign finance violation) for political benefit a la Bill Clinton, and obstructing the investigation of collusion, when there was no collusion. High crime and misdemeanor? It depends on your perspective. Worth prosecuting? Not to those Americans who ignore politics most of the time.
.
Consider the perspective of people who voted for Trump. The man was duly elected president by roughly half of America who wanted to send a disruptive force to Washington. In that sense, mission accomplished. Now we see Democratic politicians considering impeachment largely because their base supporters feel that they deserve it. Holier-than-thou Democrats acting like martyrs demanding justice because the most anti-establishment president since Andrew Jackson keeps poking a stick in their eye. Don't forget that Trump was electing for exactly that reason, to poke a stick in the eye of the establishment; that is why his approval is still close to 40%; that is why he will not be removed from office.
.
The Republican party can recover from Trump; people will forgive the party for Trump quickly, because he was the voters' idea, not the party's. They will not forgive the party that collaborates in removing the president who Republican voters sent to Washington to deliver a (flawed) message.
15
@Tom Meadowcroft
This is so spot on as a capsule analysis of our current sad state of affairs. Progressives sorely need to stop talking/tweeting each other and engage with the real world of American Politics.
1
Trump was not "elected by roughly half of America." The man didn't even get a plurality of the votes; most people voted against him.
8
@Tom Meadowcroft Your first paragraph is stunning. ALL crimes are worth prosecuting. That is why they're called "crimes."
2
The common wisdom that Senate support of Trump will forestall his removal and that impeachment will only serve to bolster Republicans election chances is a canard. Dedicated partisans like Stephens love to repeat it and love that critics like Collins and politicos like Pelosi seem to accept it. I believe Congressional investigation will give the American people a sense of the depth of betrayal to our valued ideals. And after all is said and done, a majority of Americans will turn away from the party that enabled and benefitted from that betrayal. Should Trump not be removed, not only Trump but a large number of his defenders will go down in defeat.
6
@Lawrence Zajac
I believe Congressional investigation will give the American people a sense of the depth of betrayal to our valued ideals.
-----
That is what they said about the release of the Mueller Report though.
@Midway
That was said about the Mueller report before the appointment of Barr. I'm not sure Sessions would have been as accomplished in obfuscation.
Democrats are told not to blame the people who identify as Republican (we should try to understand them and see their point of view). We should blame the Republican Leadership. Who exactly voted for the Republican Leadership in the primaries and general elections? The Old School Conservatives who don't agree/approve of Trump should then do something about the Trump extremists (let's call them accessories) in their own party. As far as socialism, do critics not remember learning about the WPA in high school (although, I doubt Trump's rally attendees either attended or actually finished high school)? These programs put Americans to work on our infrastructure: roads, bridges, national parks, theater, arts projects, Mount Rushmore - which is more than The Donald has done (even when he controlled both branches of Congress). So socialism is a dirty word, too close to communism, and Roy Cohn hated communists, but Trump loved Roy Cohn, and Putin, but he hates socialism - I think I understand now.
9
Trump's critics have difficulty seeing the full picture. Gail thinks people will look back and only see a failure to charge for obstruction. She completely ignores the fact that the entire country was subjected to 2 full years of non-stop Russian collusion charges. And then no evidence was found.
Moreover, there's enough legal dissension now to argue both impeachment and Mueller's findings. He is not a god and doesn't necessarily have the last word. His critics need to start reading some of those dissenting legal opinions. They are not all that informed if they've only "read the report".
4
@AACNY
No evidence found re collusion w/the Russians? I don't think that quite nails it after more discussion and Mueller's very brief on the report. Mueller did not think it was his role in addition to investigating the matter and writing the report to open the trial for Trump for collusion, PERHAPS, but for obstruction he was quite clear that the report did NOT say there was none, only that their role was not to carry out the rest of the legal matter, i.e., the trial, or impeachment.
9
@AACNY, I have no idea what you are talking about -- neither Trump nor any of his closest advisors has been charged with conspiracy (or "collusion," for that matter) at any time in the past two years.
You also willfully fail to understand the differences between 1) failing to find sufficient evidence to charge a crime, including because people under investigation destroyed evidence or refused to testify, 2) finding no evidence, and 3) exonerating or proving innocent. Your claim that "no evidence was found" is false, both as to Russian corruption and obstruction.
The Mueller report contains evidence sufficient to charge Donald Trump with obstruction of justice when he is out of office. It also contains evidence (in addition to the voluminous evidence of abuse of power not related to Trump's Russia-related treachery) that is more than sufficient to support an impeachment.
5
@Dubious
Mueller's mandate wasn't to exonerate but to find criminality and charge. The case for obstruction is not as strong as you would like to believe. Mueller's report is not the final word on obstruction. Far from it. It has to survive legal challenges, many of which have appeared already.
Impeachment is everybody’s problem, not just the Democrats and therein lies the problem, no one wants to take responsibility for holding Trump accountable for his corruption. Because William Barr circumvented the purpose of the Special Council by misleading the public as to the damming information in the report and the subsequent stonewalling and coverup by Barr and the White House, the only way to get the information out to the public is through the impeachment process. Regardless of the consequences, somebody has to do the right thing. I would rather do the right thing and be wrong then do the wrong thing and be wrong. So what if the Democrats maintain the majority in the house, they have the majority now and they are not using it. Do the right thing and the rest will take care of itself. Either we are a nation of laws or we are a nation of lawyers with no conscience. It is better to have tried and failed then to have failed to try.
17
I’m old enough to remember the antiwar/student power/black power era of the ’60s and ’70s, when the left was way more radical, and the rhetoric was even more over the top than it is now.
But the yelling was filtered through the press. There was no Twitter or Facebook or blogging, so it was easier to ignore.
Bret: Key point.
----------------
Wow, how removed from American society some of us are. A good portion of the population of Trump voters actually "lived" those issues. They were next-door, at the workplace, in the churches, policing the streets, sending sons to war ... national issues not so easy to "ignore".
Maybe that's why Trump voters are doing everything legally necessary to provide for law and order so we don't go back to those days. Some of you have shelter to what you stir up, but not everyone. Some of us live out your theories, survive and are stronger for our lack of ignorance of reality. Converse with a broader view of national strangers?
1
@Midway
Sorry, but the Vietnam War protests were on the right track and would have saved the thousands of lives thrown away by Johnson and Nixon to preserve their reputations.
Your version of “law and order” just preserves the status quo for the wealthy Elite that run this country. By the way, notice who is living in the Swamp now? Trump and his rich friends.
9
@Rita Reread please. I said people who were sending sons off to the wars were not able to "ignore" the headlines of the day. They were living them, as Trump voters are actually living these issues too. Trump and his "rich friends" are not ignoring the national issues so many of us are living, as Presidents Bush and Obama and their administrations did.
Reality policies, not boyish theories please. We get involved in LESS wars that way, have you noticed? Likely not.
1
@Midway
“Maybe that’s why Trump voters are doing everything legally necessary to provide law and order so that we don’t go back to those days”.
Those days when people fought for civil rights, equal rights, fair treatment, to end an immoral war...? No they want to go back further, to when the status quo was unconsciously institutionalized and American hegemony made them feel superior. Some of us embrace progress and acknowledge the reality of our global village, it’s interdependence, human movement, and is plethora of opportunities for Americans and all of humanity. We live in the real world and manage our inevitable future shock with forward thinking rationality. Converse with a broader view of national strangers?
7
My thoughts on the so called booming econmy. Back in the day we marched and protested against 60 hour work weeks for slave wages and won many concessions, today many workers have 2 or 3 jobs under the same conditons without the same outrage.
I also recall the recession of 2008 was not officially declared until later in 2009. Today many storefronts lie empty with for lease signs and the Dow peaking in October 2018 at 26,828 we are not far or already in the midst of a recession.
9
@mlb4ever Arguably, empty storefronts are more a function of changing consumer behaviors, e.g. online shopping, than economic weakness. My sense is the job market is a better indicator of economic contradiction. High job creation numbers and low unemployment rates belie the headwinds of the Gig Economy and the plethora of low-paying service jobs offering limited or no growth paths. Yet for some reason American workers don't seem to have the skills to fill higher-paying tech jobs often filled by foreign workers. Why is that?
2
If you're writing about the badly abused so-called skilled worker visas, it is not about a deficit of American STEM workers, it is about employers gaming the system to hire workers willing to accept lower wages.
5
@BI Maybe because we've abandoned a commitment to adequately funded education for all our children.
1
Impeachment is necessary not to punish Trump for his past misdeeds but to prevent him from future, truly catastrophic actions.
His supporters and enablers (esp. the GOP Senate but also the DEM House) need to be convinced that though his past is distasteful, there is moral hazard waiting if they do nothing. And it's what he MAY do next that should scare them most.
47
@JFR
Time to realize that your distaste is not universally shared. Many of us, while disliking the president's style, like what he's doing on the economy and for small businesses.
If you are that scared, I suggest counseling. The problem may not be political.
@AACNY
I fear for your soul if you measure your national goals in gold and profits.
1
@JFR
I agree.
1
Impeach Trump.
Impeachment isn’t the same as conviction. An impeachment will put a formal stamp on the activities Mueller proved were happening and Trump’s repeated efforts to obstruct. If you believe Clinton’s impeachment was justified (and I suspect a lot of Trump supporters are desperate to not be asked about that) you believe Trump should be impeached.
24
@In 2014 52% of Republicans supported impeaching Obama according to a CNN poll. My how times and Republicans have changed.
2
Yes, M, you are exactly right, a "formal stamp." Trump is so horrible and corrupt, that if he isn't impeached, he walks away with a smile.
He needs to be labeled for what he is.
It may be a dream, but maybe it could happen that we could impeach him. There would be dancing in the streets.
1
Sorry, Bret, but Trumpian capitalism hasn’t produced a strong economy. If anything, the economy is doing well in spite of Trump. The government shutdown that slowed growth, the damaging trade wars that have put farmers on the brink of bankruptcy and raised taxes on consumers, and the tax cut that put money only in the hands of shareholders did more to slow overall growth than encourage it. If he’d just do nothing, we’d be much better off. Economic growth today is just a continuation of a trend that started under Obama. As for impeachment, I’m not sure why Democrats don’t just put all their energy into winning the Senate and keeping the House in 2020. Once you control Congress, you control Trump’s fate, if he’s re-elected.
67
"Trumpian capitalism has produced a strong economy "
An economy based on debt only appears superficially strong. But then, what is trump but superficial.
70
@john zouck All sound and fury, signifying...
Don't impeach. Vote him out of office by a large margin. It's the only thing that makes sense. Find a charismatic middle of the road Democrat (Mayor Pete?) and lose Bernie. That should do it.
19
A vast number of Americans do not know the extent of Trump’s crimes. They just feel the press is against him and may vote for him anyway in 2020.
“He’s a strong President”, they’ll say. “ He gets away with defying Congress!”
But an Impeachment investigation will detail his shocking number and egregious acts to obstruct justice defy the rule of law.
Just compare Clinton’s impeachment for simply lying about a measly affair with an intern to Trump’s multiple treacherous acts supporting cyber security hacks by foreign adversaries and blatant repeated acts to obstruct of justice.
America must be told the full truth about this incredibly dangerous con man.
Whether the Senate convicts Trump or not, makes
America must be informed the the full extent of Trumps crimes before the 2020 election.
And his spineless Congressional GOPers who lie and cover for him must also be made to answer to the American people as to why they support such a dangerous, flagrant criminal.
This must all be done before 2020.
Robert Mueller did his job to clarify his referral for impeachment.
Impeachment hearings must start now.
4
According to Gallup as of last month, roughly 30% of Americans identify as Republicans, 30% as Democrats, and 40% as independents (the numbers are really 30/38/31; I rounded them for clarity). According to CNN, 76% of Democrats currently favor impeachment. That means 23% of the population overall are Democrats who favor impeachment. Support for impeachment is now at 41% overall. Even if no Republicans support impeachment, that would still mean that fewer than half of independents support it. That's not hugely favorable for impeachment.
Also from CNN: "About two-thirds of all Americans (67%) say that Mueller ought to publicly testify before Congress, including majorities of Democrats (88%) and independents (62%) and about half of Republicans (49%)."
Impeachment is tricky. Democrats do not have the uncensored Mueller report, Mueller has indicated that he does not want to testify before Congress, and Trump's tax returns could be tied up in court for years. Some would say that it is now time to strike, while the iron is hot. But it is unclear how hot the iron really is. On the other hand, a year from now the iron would be stone cold and Democrats might not have made any appreciable progress with an "ironclad" case. In any event, if the House vote is strictly along party lines, Trump will look like the victim.
Hopefully, Nancy Pelosi knows what she is doing. It's a tough road ahead.
19
It should read "30/31/38" above for (R)/(D)/(I); the Gallup website lists the affiliations in the order (R)/(I)/(D), and I didn't catch the mismatch before I posted ...
5
@Blue Moon
Mueller's testimony could backfire. First, he is on record -- in front of witnesses -- stating that his failure to charge on obstruction was not based (entirely?) on his view he "couldn't". Second, there are several of his team members who were fired. They were obviously working against the president. Third, he will be grilled about the questionable nature of the origins of the entire Trump collusion investigation. That dossier. Again.
3
Dems have no choice.
If they do nothing, they violate their oath of office and constitutional duty.
Worse, they look scared pathetically weak.
Far too weak to run a country.
2
Impeachment hearings are the only way to break into the impenetrable wall that Fox viewers have built around themselves. I’m not sure that Pelosi truly appreciates just how little truth gets through to their audience.
31
I understand that Pelosi is concerned about timing impeachment so that Trumps crimes are still headlines up to the 2020 election.
But she is looking weak and losing a lot of credibility fast allowing Trump and his cronies to repeatedly defy all congressional subpoenas with absolutely no immediate consequences.
America wants Pelosi to boldly stand up to Trump and call him out for the criminal he is, NOW.
Absolutely subpoena Mueller to testify even if he only reads from his report.
The whole world would be watching.
The sordid details of the 10 obstruction of justice charges will become common knowledge.
America will get a desperately needed civics lesson about the limits of presidential power and finally have the full truth about this man who daily deceives the American people.
Only the truth will heal our nation.
3
A draft dodger put into the position of having to honor the heroes of D-Day? The psychological dissonance within most people's souls would be paralyzing. Not this guy, though.
I'd rather see a "buck private" without any name tag representing all the "kids" who volunteered to save the Free World, whose names are all but lost to history.
148
@Paul
I recall a liberal friend, also a Vietnam veteran, justified his discounting of Bill Clinton’s avoidance of military service. “Anyone who didn’t have the cunning and good sense to stay out of Vietnam isn’t qualified to be President. I wish I had been as smart.”
Reason is servant, not master.
1
@KBronson As I recall, all of Clinton's deferments were based on facts of college enrollment.
Many people sought to avoid service in that war, however, some resorted to lies (bone spurs) to escape their duty.
The real irony is how the Right treated an honorable man who volunteered for and served in combat in Vietnam. Truly, they should be ashamed for how they treated John Kerry simply for political gain.
31
@k2isnothome
Actually Clinton got his final deferment based on a meeting in which he led the ROTC commander to believe that he was going to be joining ROTC at the University of Arkansas law school, then after he got the letter, welched.
Retired Army Col. Eugene J. Holmes accused Clinton of a "lack of veracity" when he failed to reveal his involvement in anti-war activities and "his counterfeit intentions" to join the ROTC. His anti war activities were relevant in that he would not have qualified for a commission. Clinton lied his way out of service also.
At other times, he was more forthcoming about his opposition to the war, his opposition to the draft in principle ( I agree), his feeling that he was too good for the military, and his decision to weasel out of it rather than forthrightly refuse because of his political ambitions.
Personally, I don’t blame him or Trump. Conscription is slavery and lying to resist being enslaved is more honorable than “honorably” going and killing strangers in a war that you think is wrong just to be a good boy.
If Kerry actually believed in the war and what it was about when he first went, then good for him. If he went just to obey authority, then there is no honor in that. I don’t know and don’t care—that is his wagon to pull.
1
Personally, I think Pelosi is right. Impeachment will help Trump politically, and he really doesn’t have the support most are afraid of. A lot of the last election was ‘vote against Hillary’ as opposed to ‘vote for Trump’. Given a moderate, likable Democratic candidate, I expect they can win in a landslide. An excellent way to say ‘No!’ to our current President and his (lack of) values.
19
people that elected Trump voted for him and his agenda. they will do it again massively. impeachment will not change this. the idea of impeachment is to be able to investigate Trump and his clan methodically with all the authority needed. not to remove Trump. not impeaching Trump means not investigating him. he will be reelected if not investigated.
9
@exo
Most Americans believe there has been an adequate amount of "investigating." Mueller's investigation was extensive, and they know it. His report was released quickly, with very little withheld. And they know it.
His critics refuse to believe it's over. For most Americans it was over when he wasn't charged with collusion, which is what was charged by the media and democrats for 2 years.
5
Trump wasn’t charged with “collusion” because it literally isn’t a crime. The Mueller report didn’t charge Trump with obstruction of justice because of the DOJ rule saying a sitting president can’t be charged with a crime. Mueller also wrote that Trump’s obstruction may have prevented them from seeing more evidence of crimes related to conspiracy and election meddling.
7
Democrats (and even anti-Trump conservatives like Stephens) need to think differently about why Trump should be (I'd argue must be) impeached. Impeachment should not focus narrowly on the possible obstruction of justice outlined in Mueller's report. It should focus broadly on Trump's repeated and multifaceted abuse of Presidential power. These abuses include openness to Russian interference in elections and obstruction of justice. But they also include Trump's defiance of Congressional oversight, his use of emergency powers to get around Congress, and his refusal to be transparent about potential financial conflicts. Trump (with the support of McConnell's GOP Senators, Bill Barr, and possibly the Republicans on the Supreme Court) is establishing a dangerous precedent that the president is essentially an elected king who can do whatever he wants. He is destroying the entire idea of checks and balances. Impeachment is necessary to defend that basic Constitutional concept. For it to be effective, however, the Democrats have to dig deep—particularly on financial corruption. They need to expose Trump not just as a defier of Constitutional principles, but as a corrupt individual who is exploiting the office for gain. Once he's exposed as corrupt, it will become a much more difficult political choice for Republican Senators to protect him. In fact, one of the political benefits of impeachment is its possible negative impact on GOP Senators.
98
@617to416
It seems you are saying that the Mueller report is a bit of a red herring. It just happened to come out now. Maybe it will be of help to Democrats, at some level. But the real event is that Democrats gained control of the House this year and can now launch investigations into Trump's activities. That is really what has changed. Hopefully, Democrats can make something of their newfound power. But it's a rough and uncertain road ahead, and they don't have much time.
5
Trumps potential financial crimes have not even been addressed yet.
There are still pending investigations into his possible Deutsche Bank financial crimes and IRS tax fraud.
6
@Blue Moon
The Mueller report is relevant, but the real issue here is about the balance of power between the President and the Congress (and maybe even the Courts as the president is now defying Court orders too). I don't think people understand what a threat Bill Barr is to our Constitutional balance. I don't think Barr is defending Trump—I think he's completely devoted to the concept of the unitary executive who has almost absolute power as long as he's acting in what Barr sees as very expansive executive sphere. He's not defending Trump personally, he's (very effectively) defending the expansive power and privilege of the unitary executive in general. Congress needs to fire a powerful warning shot to the president that that expansion of executive power at the expense of Congress's (and maybe the Courts') power will not be tolerated. Impeachment for abuse of presidential powers is the way to fire that shot.
12
Here are the GDP growth rates leading up to 2007:
2003 - 2.9%
2004 - 3.8%
2005 - 3.5%
2006 - 2.9%
That's better than the economy today.
What did that period and today have in common:
Increasing privare (household + business) debt.
You guys can think the economy looks good. Me, I worry.
56
@Len Charlap
Yes, Len, but small business owners can feel the difference. Trump is not a regulator on steroids as Obama was. He doesn't want to be their silent partner as Obama did. They can rest easily knowing they will not be hit with a deluge of new regulations as they were under Obama.
Also, Trump has introduced a manageable way to introduce new regulations. First, remove some old, obsolete regulations from the books. The regulatory burden needs to be managed. It cannot be like Hotel California, where regulations can check in but never check out.
Finally, the 20% pass-through deduction is a boon to small businesses.
2
@AACNY - You can look this up. THere have been many surveys of business owners about regulations. When asked why they do not expand or why they have reduced their operation, federal regulations are way down the list. At the top is always that they expand because they expect more customers or reduce because they do not have enough customers.
Thus the way to improve business is to get money to the people who need it and will spend it and NOT to the people who do not need it and will use it to speculate. The Trump tax cut did this in a very small and inefficient way. For example, federal spending on infrastructure would do this a lot better.
20
@AACNY
Mayhap you note the economy collapsed under Bushy boy, NOT Obama.
Silly facts.
1
Two thoughts: 1. If Trump can't be impeached, then no future president can be impeached. Might as well white out it out of the Constitution; 2. Sports arenas are socialism and the benefits accrue to a small elite group of super rich owners. There are other examples of socialism being practiced in this country, e.g. social security. It really isn't the cosmic threat its being made out to be.
109
I couldn’t agree more. First, Republicans would have already impeached if it was the other way around. Second, we live in a corporate welfare state or in other words we have corporate socialism. This country is socialist. Just the majority of money supports corporations and now, with Trump’s tax scam, very wealthy individuals. Why is it ok for the Yankees to receive 1.2 billion dollars in tax payer money yet we (as Americans) get bent out of shape with the idea that people receive “government handouts” or SNAP (aka food stamps). Why is it ok for Amazon to pay no taxes in 2018? Why is it ok for Americans not to have decent affordable heath care, or free education for that matter? Capitalism is all about the bottom line and making the most profit for its share holders, but there is also the thought that the same private sector will be better at taking care of the problems of this country. It’s just not true, especially if you look at the pharmaceutical prices we have in this country. Or look at the necessary government handouts farmers are getting because of Trumps tariffs. We have been sold a bill of goods that doesn’t benefit the majority.
17
@Susan
Sports arenas are an excellent example of socialism. When food production and distribution is socialized, only the elite members of the ruling faction eat well. The cosmos are unthreatened by socialism, but the many tens of millions starved to death in the Soviet Union and China and starving now in Venezuela show that it is definitely a threat to the stomachs of the powerless.
Actually just about any President CAN be impeached. It is only an indictment and every President in recent memory had trodden on the constitution to a greater or lessor degree. They are all the proverbial ham sandwich ( this a particularly distasteful one). But what is the point of indictment if you can’t frighten the defendant into a plea bargain ( resignation) or get a conviction ( in the senate). The current legal theory of obstruction with the currently available facts is debatable. As long as that is the case, neither will occur. If additional clearer evidence of crimes by the President were to come forth, enough Senate Republicans would consider it and might convict. As it is now they would treat an impeachment as a partisan political stunt and go through the motions, much as they did with Clinton. This isn’t Clinton’s case, but neither is it Nixon in which case the fact of an actual crime by the White House Followed by an active conspiracy to cover it up was evident.
2
@Susan To your first point, I would agree if you had said no future Repub president would be impeached. It will always be open season on any future Dem president.
6
Trump and his administration are stonewalling oversight by the House. The Constitution requires checks-and-balances between three co-equal branches of government, but Trump wants to be a king, answerable to nobody. Nixon's popularity remained high until the American people saw the Congressional inquiries and realized what he had actually done. The same is likely to happen with Trump.
An impeachment inquiry (whether or not it leads to impeachment) would give the House more leverage to get the answers that they need. However, it would be divisive since most people wouldn't know the difference between an inquiry and actual impeachment. As long as the House is winning in court (which they currently are), opening an official impeachment inquiry is unnecessary.
Censure is a slap on the wrist, but it's better than nothing and it might actually pass in the Senate, which will never remove Trump from office even if he's impeached by the House. Just letting it go is not an option, since it would make the executive branch unaccountable to Congress even for future presidents.
17
I suppose the purpose of this series is to show that two people from wildly different political perspectives can still be cordial and even charming, but there are very few surprises here. It would be much more illuminating if Gail's nemesis was an unrepentant Trumpist, rather than someone who still adhered to timeworn Conservative orthodoxy. At least then, educated people could get a gander at what they're up against, after they get over the initial horror.
48
@stan continople
For all the hoopla, there is really not much ideological diversity at the Times. The "conservative" here cannot even respect the point of view of the Trump wing of the party enough to stop ridiculing and joking and understand where they are coming from. Ross Douthat too. I don't think they have a Trump supporter on the Opinion staff. Good thing Trump supporters don't need critical mass to express their political opinions and patiently explain them, again and again and again, only to see the left (and media) mischaracterize.
@stan continople The horror is going full Trumpist... everyone knows that you never go full Trumpist.
Always enjoy this colloquial back and forth banter between Brett and Gail. Personally speaking I'm in Gail's camp as a rule but happy to admit Brett often raises very valid points. Today is no different and in particular I totally agree that shy of some new revelation of easy to understand cleat cut criminality on Trump's part Impeachment would be a disaster. So that said shaking my head over Brett pairing Ramsey Bolton and Theon Greyjoy, Bolton was pure ,psychotic evil who got the end he deserved while Theon had the most interesting character arc and moment of atonement in the whole series.
4
@Donny read the report. There is devastating, clear evidence of trump’s criminality. The real argument is whether or not we are a country where the rule of law applies to all, or are the wealthy (and white) above the law.
17
@Mags I've read the entire report and yes it is devastatingly clear that Trump obstructed justice and that the campaign actively sought and utilized covert help from a foreign adversary to get elected. What I don't get is how an Impeachment trial the outcome of which is foreordained to see him exonerated by the Senate somehow affirms us as being a nation of laws. It would be seen as a futile circus at the end of the day and make further investigations and potential revelations of corruption effectively irrelevant. By all means vote to censure and continue to apply to the courts to enforce subpoenas of both Administration officials and Trump's financial records . Most importantly do everything possible to see he is thoroughly repudiated by the American people at the ballot box.
4
@Donny
Isn’t dialogue great! It is, after all, a foundation of democracy. Perhaps the reason democracy is stumbling is because in substituting the monologue of the internet for the dialogue of discussion, we are running the engine dry of oil.
2
Democrats have been calling for Trumps impeachment the day he announced he would run for President.
Getting tired of the lame calls for impeachment. Either do it and get on with it or do some work for America. We can see Democrats are doing nothing of use and come 2020 they will lose the house and let the GOP increase their majority in the Senate.
6
@Mr Chang Shih An The Democrats in the House have passed numerous bills that would help many situations in the country( just look it up). But since McConnell will not bring them to the floor in the Senate it looks as if nothing is being done- and McConnell seems fine with that. I blame the Republicans in the Senate and the White House for the lack of any good legislation coming through, and what they have allowed is not good for the middle class in this country.
186
@Carole Ellis
From where I am at, the middle class in this country are doing better than they have in years. Jobs and the economy are liftiung all boats, some that were slowly sinking before.
People are not going to accept excuses why the do-nothing Democrats in Congress, are still doing nothing as they have for decades.
Like it or not, national issues like immigration and tariffs are being addressed. More and more, open borders and refugee resettlement will be the number one political issue in coming years. It really is a national security issue, being able to document, vet, assimilate and provide for our American population. That's why we need records and legally enforceable policies.
You don't have to like President Trump, but at least respect that he is actually taking action on important issues, while the Democrats just dawdled and danced around them for years, all on the taxpayers' dimes, of course. Bailout mentality, like the Bush and Clinton dynasties, are so yesterday...
So is impeachment a president. (They cancelled Woodstock 2, remember.)
2
Aren't we bailing out the farmers from the effects of the tariffs? Assistance for them, since they voted for trump, while those stuck working multiple jobs to get by are called losers?
5
Why do so many people keep banging on about impeachment
when they know it isn't going to happen.
The Republican Senators aren't going vote to impeach
Mr. Trump.
Robert Mueller is a wise man who defined the issue
as fairly and clearly as he could. He knew there wasn't a quick or easy solution.
A President can't be indicted. End of story.
Will the chattering classes please go home and start planning
how to win the next election.
Democracy depends on winning elections. It takes a lot
of organizing and hard work. Social media won't do it for you.
Ancient Canadian
PS
In Scotland a jury can chose one of three verdicts:
Guilty. Not Guilty. Not Proven.
9
@David Andrew Henry Canadian friend- Have you read the Mueller Report? If you did that might change your mind- many Americans will not read it so that is why there needs to be a reveal of the facts by hearings in the House which more Americans will see. Trump should not be allowed to get away with what he has brought about- he needs to be held accountable.
25
@David Andrew Henry
Why do so many people keep banging on about impeachment when they know it isn't going to happen.
----------------
Effective political theater.
Why did the American people re-elect President Obama after it became clear that he wasn't going to change many of President Bush's policies, and would be rather ineffectual with that "change" motto that swept him into office?
We liked the optics, we did. Still do.
3
@David Andrew Henry
We are not Canada. We have a very strong belief that you are innocent until proven guilty. Moreover, the special counsel's role has never been to bestow "exoneration" on anyone. Mueller messed up and is now trying to finagle his way out with his Boy Scout routine, just as Comey did.
Barr isn't buying it, nor should he. He is holding Mueller to the same standard to which all special counsel have been held. Mueller's musings on impeachment are also misguided. As one lawyer said, his authority was never meant to be "extension of Congress". Again, Mueller is muddled on his role.
Mueller failed to recommend charges. Barr believes he could have. Mueller's opinion isn't sacrosanct. Neither is his report.
I live in a state high on the list of people having to work 2 jobs to get by. So I don’t see a red hot economy as much perhaps. The stock market seems fine and as a retiree, I am glad of that but that may not be because of Trump and some predict a recession because of Trump.
I really liked this interchange . I learned from it. And maybe most importantly, even talk of Trump’s re election being probable makes me want to do all I can for Democrats.
And I too find myself no longer able or willing to focus on Trump for very long. I no longer google his name every morning. I try to concentrate on state and local elections and issues groups ( Moms Demand Action, Northern Plains Resource Council, Not in Our Town, Planned Parenthood, etc.).
I have given up trying to understand Trump’ s appeal to his voters, some of whom are my friends. Republicans have gone from A Thousand Points of Light to Compassionate Conservatism to now criticizing Democrats for focusing too much in “morals” and not on the economy , as if you cannot have both.
Anne Harris
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@Anne
Trump voters would prefer to pick up a newspaper every morning to read about the president and the country, rather than to Google President Trump's name. They prefer more the hard copy of reading materials to more superficial and swiftly passing technologies like digital reading. The world is going the way of the later, so many are banking on the whole country shifting to less permanent, less longlasting, less traditional ways and means of living and providing.
The trouble is, we have forgotten about the success rate (or lack of it) in creating utopian societies without solid foundations beneath them. There is a place for both Trump voters, and those who want to tear down the system of order and those who built it. But it has to be a naturally competitive one that provides stability through achieving a natural equality, where possible. When you try to force it, it is better if you had never intervened in the first place.
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@Anne
Yes, it was so much easier when Obama expanded that safety net. The problem was there was no "exit".
As for jobs, as employers face a worker shortage, they will raise wages. It's just been so long since this happened, many seem to have forgotten how a tight job market actually works.
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@AACNY-Raise wages or transition to robots?
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Impeachment will make a significant, but still a minority of the Democratic Party, pleased but it is certain he will not be convicted by the Republican Senate. It may be an example of cutting your nose to spite your face and Trump could emerge as the victim and gain re-election. My sense is most Americans have had enough of this warfare and want to tend to the people's business and get on with those important issues. We should concentrate on picking a winner to oppose Trump ( Biden). History will not look favorably either on either party to this warfare. The Mueller Report doomed conviction and removal by the senate and no amount of complaining can put humpty dumpty back together again.
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How is Global Warming not a crisis? If you're a species going extinct, cropland becoming useless, or a coastal town being hit with Category 5 hurricanes, I'd say you feel embattled. And the economy is about to unravel thanks to Trumpian foot-shooting, so maybe that will focus the attention of people who complain when the "Bachelorette" broadcast is interrupted for a tornado warning...
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@dave Global warming is just another way for government to get its hand in the pockets of working people to spin sugar in the air to meet its own needs. If you want people to pay attention to global warming, bring pressure on the businesses that - supposedly - cause it. See how far you get with businesses in China and India.
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@HoobertHerver I always hear the argument about how our change won’t do any good because of India and China...and it won’t if we are playing chicken with them. Us demanding they change while we continue because we want to win economically is guaranteeing the world looses. The only way to get Chine and India to cooperate is if we are on board and the entire rest of the modern states all sanction them or negotiate them into behaving. The world MUST practice strategic diplomacy to handle this. Otherwise we will starve our children’s or their grandchildren’s generation. I’m not joking, an agricultural or economic collapse will result in the climate changing more rapidly than it has in our recorded history.
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@SDemocrat
Change your “Us” and “We” to “I” and “me”. What you say applies to me as much as India and China. I don’t even hear all the nattering about how “we” need to change from people who have not made serious impactful changes in their own lifestyle. The eco-nag friend who owned an offshore fishing trawler, the judgmental “green” who drove around town in a personal F250 and owned three recreational airplanes, the banker lecturing about climate change who flies around the world for exotic vacation several times a year—nothing they have to say has any chance of penetrating my contempt for their hypocrisy. I might be led but I will not be driven.
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Gail, these are not trivial times! We have a president who does not honor our Constitution.He ignores it and encourages his staff to ignore it.He is at war with his own FBI and CIA and has appointed an AG to do his bidding.Our allies do not trust us.There is indeed a crisis at our border , Korea is still developing nuclear weapons andRussia is attacking all elections with their cyber warfare.This is a partial list, not including costly weather events and a costly health care system which leaves people fearful.To me, this feels monumental! The House needs to act on many fronts even though the Senate will not.The House needs to open an impeachment inquiry.They need to assure the majority who elected them in 2018 that they are doing the people’s work.
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@JANET MICHAEL
I completely agree with you and I would like to add that the stock market should not be the criteria for whether the economy is doing well. The measly amount the average citizen has invested in the stock market through his or her 401K is negligible. Not to mention all those people without a 401K and all those people who are working 2-3 measly jobs just to make ends meet. For most of us the economy is not great at all. It's terrible.
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We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. --- Winston Churchill
What does it matter if if he is impeached and Senate Republicans refuse to convict him.
This country's entire future is at stake.
The important and necessary thing to do now is keep fighting and keep trying in every way we can to get rid of him.
I myself won't be voting for any candidate for President in 2020 who opposes impeachment now.
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@A. Stanton- Then you are not really in tune with all of the facts and I don't mean you have to read the Mueller 450 page report. If you think this guy is not guilty then you have not been watching his words, actions, behavior, comments, or you would be appalled that this Man is the leader of our Nation.He is not a friend of Climate Science, his economy is based on lifting all regulations, anything goes, he has hired some of the most misplaced people in key positions, many of whom are super rich in their own right. What this all means in a nutshell is that we don't have a chance. If that doesn't hit home with you, nothing will.
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@A. Stanton
Excellent statement there - you note how important it is to get rid of him and then say you won't vote for a candidate that opposed impeachment now. So, essentially "Impeach! The country is at stake! If you don't I'm not voting against Trump in 2020!"
For all you Bernie-or-die folks out there and people who make comments like the one above, if you really care about this place, realize that another four years of Trump will more than likely create an even larger conservative majority in the Supreme Court for years to come. That effect lasts beyond tomorrow.
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@A. Stanton. How about we all pull together this one time to get this guy out of office. Then, when we win, let’s hash out the rest of the details. Sitting out the election is just plain pouting and deleterious.
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Gail is worried that future generations of Americans will look back and say that we failed to do our duty if we do not cry out for Impeachment. That seems a bit overdrawn.
Americans are deeply unfocused on History- except for the South and only because they lost.
In 20 years the Trump Presidency will be forgotten, always assuming that he does not declare himself to be King. Whether or not to impeach is the political equivalent of talking about Game of Thrones, to use an analogy in the piece.
The most salient comment was Bret’s that Trump has managed to insert himself int the D-day Solemnities by childishly tweeting about the Mayor of London.
Having said that 62 million people voted for him- there is the real problem.
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@Lefthalfbach
The only point I have issue with is that in 20 years when sea levels rise, the Plains are flooded, weather disasters increase and there are food shortages and disease we will not forget who failed to act. I never forgot Reagan turning his back on our future.
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