There's so much hate towards the non-binary and transgender communities in all these comments. I'm sad to see that so many people are brushing these communities off as a "fad" or that everyone in them is "attention-seeking." Non-binary people and transgender people exist and have existed for ages. They exist and they will continue to exist, no matter how much you try to deny them their happiness and expression.
Additionally, "they" WORKS as a singular pronoun. It's actually been grammatically correct to use it singularly for ages (as far back as the 1300s), and only by recent convention is it "wrong." For example: "My friend is so funny!" "Why? What did they say?" Or: "Someone dropped their pen. I hope they don't need it for the test!" Although you still use "they are" instead of "they is," that doesn't mean it's not singular! You use "you are" for a single person!
To anyone in the transgender or non-binary community reading these comments: some people can't accept that you're different. Some people will never accept it. But that doesn't change who you are. YOU know yourself best. There are people out there who WILL support you. Stay strong.
- Audrey
6
live your life as you wish but don't muck up the english language using plural pronouns for individual people. worse yet, getting angry if someone does not get your “preferred” pronoun right. get a grip.
5
They and them are plural pronouns. You can identify as whatever you like, imho, but it doesn’t make you more than one person.
Second rant, male and female indeed refer to biological sex, unless you are one of the rare individuals who is born with some other variation of these genes.
I wonder why people think that owning their biological sex dictates what gender they must assume. Is it really dictated by society, or is this self-imposed?
5
Zzzzzzz
I would always respect someone's wishes to call them as they prefer, but whenever I encounter this in the real world it's narcissistic, performative balderdash.
If there's a sex on an ID I assume it's for biological sex, and has nothing to do with gender.
46
@Little Donnie What is the difference between "sex" and "gender"? They are treated as synonymous in dictionaries. Is it the difference between fact and wishful thinking? Then every physical attribute must have fact-nature and wish-nature. A person who is 5'2" but wishes to be 6'2" then has two heights, the actual height and the wish-height. Whatever he or she may wish about his or her height, the actual height--the one you can directly observe--remains the same. Would it be reasonable for everyone else to pretend that the fact is not the fact?
14
@David M. Brown I’m glad you asked and are willing to gain new knowledge outside your current schema! Simply put: sex describes a persons physical makeup including genitalia, gonads, secondary sex characteristics, hormones, chromosomes and by some accounts grey and white matter density of the brain. Gender however, includes roles, behaviors, verbal speech habits, how you dress, internal sense of self, and more. It’s true that many dictionaries will use sex and gender as synonyms, however they are made for layman nomenclature in mind. In medicine, science, and as a person living outside of gender norms, these terms are more complex and hold more weight.
Sincerely,
Your fairy trans mother
8
I don't like to be referred to as a person. I find it insulting.
5
This obsession with gender seems more focused on clothes and make up more than anything else. A bit shallow in my opinion.
9
Reading comments criticizing these non-binary kids as "self-indulgent" is a bigotry that stems from lack of empathy. Just because you experience gender as a black or white experience (as I do) does not mean that others, even a small minority, may not experience it that way. We should not force them to pick a side, or to be pressured into unnecessary surgeries or therapies to express as their chosen gender. Let them be.
With that said the opposite holds true as well, the fact that some people experience gender as non-binary does not make it a "spectrum". Most people, it seems, experience it as binary and they (we) should be allowed to do so without being forced to publish that fact on every name tag.
No one should take offense at the assumption of gender based upon expressed appearance, and no one should be put off when corrected. If we all just respect each other this doesn't have to be so much work.
11
I have two comments here:
First, my 21 year old daughter just graduated from college and she has known a few peers who identify as "non-binary." Every one of them is a woman, acts like a woman, dresses like a woman, dates like a woman. They are not transitioning, or struggling with any physiological ambiguity. It is a political statement they are making, and a silly one in my opinion. But hey 21 year olds make those all the time. But let's not pretend it isn't given out-sized importance because of journalists at papers such as the NYT. True transgendered people are rare (can we admit that?); but should be afforded their rights to live free from discrimination and to receive full legal and societal acceptance. But this non-binary stuff, please.
My second point is that it is rare that over a dozen comments receive more than 100 'recommends' and none are chosen as a "Times pick." Wonder if that has something to do with the fact that all of them are critical of this article?
22
Reading the comments makes it apparent how divided people are on this issue. It seems to me that the fundamental divide is this:
-To those binary individuals protesting the visibility of this topic, it feels like nonbinary individuals are constantly involved in a self-obsessed and performative discussion of their identity. It's grating to constantly discuss identity, especially when it means that you must reexamine your beliefs or are told your behavior is offensive. It's particularly difficult when you yourself are struggling. It might appear to you as if these individuals are asking for special treatment.
-The rub is that these nonbinary individuals MUST discuss this. They aren't asking for special treatment, they are simply fighting for their right to be treated just like everyone else. When I walk around, people greet and interact with me generally how I want them to. When I fill out a form or meet someone for the first time, that jarring element of friction is removed. Think about how frustrating it is when someone spells your name wrong, even when they know you well! Now imagine that happening every day. It's also important to remember that this isn't just high school students. Nonbinary people have existed for centuries. These kids are just the first generation brave enough to say something.
I would have appreciated more reporting on the daily difficulties experienced by nonbinary folks. It would have been illuminating and perhaps would have generated more empathy.
12
@GiaI
I have a long unusual surname that is pronounced 100% phonetically, but virtually everyone gets it wrong.. so what: get over yourself, call yourself whatever you want, who cares what everyone else says.
2
When I was young, in a small logging town in Humboldt County, California, we had a woman, Tonya, who dressed like a man, drove a pick-up truck, smoked a pipe, and was a logger. She was, in every way, like a man, but was a woman, and at that time, this was something completely out of the ordinary. I have never forgotten her or the example she set for living life on her own terms. She stood out in that time and place, but she carried on, without asking anything of anyone. A lot of what goes on now seem like desperate howls for attention, with the additional demand of change in all those around them. And, to make matters worse, calling someone "they" in the way they are demanding, makes them seem like, well, they are ready for their close-up, Mr. Demille.
14
@M. "For example, one nonbinary person I know sometimes feels female and sometimes feel male. When they feel female, they dress in skirts and sparkles and enjoy showing their cleavage. When they feel male, they dress in polos and shorts, and they stuff their pants because the lack of a penis feels wrong."
Wow! What incredibly insulting stereotypes of what it is to be a woman or man. This really annoys me. Is the transgender world view about promoting the old female and male stereotypes that so many people, especially woman, have been trying to get rid of?
15
@Rebecca
No, it’s about getting rid of gender stereotypes and traditional gender roles altogether. Right now, clothing, hair and makeup are gendered. Not by nonbinary/trans people, but by the culture. If gender expression wasn’t policed the way it is, people could be authentic without fear of discrimination or violence. My transgender wife was very traditionally feminine as a child. Naturally. What did she get for being herself? Grabbed by the neck and thrown against the wall by her father as a six-year-old, regularly. Beaten up every day by her brothers. Called “sissy” and “princess.” What if she had been loved for who she was? What if her gender expression had been validated by her family? We have no idea what our society would look like if we weren’t stuffed into binary gender boxes with very rigid boundaries and violent policing of anyone who doesn’t fit their assigned box. What if skirts and glitter were not gendered? Those of us who are trans/nonbinary wear culturally gendered “signifiers” so that people will identify us correctly in this culture, not because we support the gender binary. Go talk to the people who force others into rigid behaviors and expressions; they’re the problem, not those of us who are nonbinary, or trans women or men. I’m 52. I was raised as a feminist girl. I was *still* gender policed at home and at school. Unsurprisingly, I turned out to be queer: nonbinary and bisexual. I just want to live my life in peace.
3
I’m wondering if fluid individuals, on days they feel like a man, are they courageous, trustworthy, willing to put themselves in physical danger to protect women and children and also much physically stronger?
On woman days are they subject to the expectations of being pleasing, kind, accommodating and putting the needs of children above their own physical needs?
If not they are just playing dress-up and subverting nothing.
2
Of course, it is not practical for everyone to choose gender markers, because they would then effectively become additional names.
One practical choice would be to simply remove all gender markers, or to use one for everyone. Interestingly, the Chinese words for he, she and it are all pronounced the same way - ‘ta’ (although they are written with different characters), so there is at least one practical example. Would it be fair to impose this on a population though?
3
This article and it’s comment section make me very happy that the Baby Boomers are going to start exiting the population en mass.
7
@Lana Lee Would mind elaborating? Why do you say that?
1
@Lana Lee If you posted this for an audience of younger/ more open minded readers, the comments would be quite different. I can't understand why identifying as nonbinary makes people angry, but there is absolutely a huge shift in thinking from boomers to gen Z. In my humble opinion, what makes someone *old* is not their chronological age, but the absolute refusal to try and understand anything new.
2
Some of these comments certainly illustrate what non-binary people are facing.
12
There is a perfectly fine gender neutral, singular pronoun in English: it. Comes with a Cousin Gomez, btw.
10
I think the 'age of pronouns' is over
10
Talking to a person you cannot call that person "he", you cannot the person "she", you cannot call the person "they" - you can only call the person "you".
Where's the problem?
5
@areader People talk about people both in the presence of the person and not in the presence of the person. To refer to a non-binary person as "she," when they don't identify as a "she" is to invalidate the way that person sees themself. And they are often witness to this. At the very least, why upset someone when really it's at most grammatically inconvenient and initially awkward to use their preferred pronouns. But weigh this against the discord and upset they feel every time they are misgendered. It's a matter of respect -- even if you don't understand or agree with it, why hurt someone when it's so easy not to?
3
I had a student who insisted on being referred to in the plural. But referred to "themself" in the singular. When I pointed out the inconsistency, the student decided I was transphobic.
31
@AKS I would imagine that they were probably reacting more to your tone and the intention behind the question than to the question itself. If you were really just neutrally discussing the grammar behind it, I doubt they would have called you transphobic. (If that is the case, then I can't defend them.) However, the fact that you're posting this one comment in reaction to this article, leads me to believe that they reacted correctly.
5
What I don't understand is this: If a person feels that their arm is an alien appendage and want it removed, they are considered disphoric and it is a mental health issue.
But if someone wants to remove or alter genitalia because they feel its alien, that's should be considered OK and normal, because it's politically correct to do so?
We are truly losing our way as society if we can't even agree on what male and female means.
39
@wizard149 I agree with this 100% and find it horrifying that there seem to be no controls for doctors to be able to perform these operations.
14
This article is about people who do not adhere to any cultural expression, gender: woman/man of their sex, not people who feel they were born with the wrong sex:male/female. Lesbian, gay, bisexual and non-gender conforming people are not the same as trans people. The first four still see themselves as male or female attracted to either males, females or both. They can adhere to the cultural expression of that sex by calling themselves men or women or not adhere to the cultural expression by calling themselves non-binary but they still see themselves as male if XY or female if XX. Homosexuality and trans-sexuality are two very different things.
10
@wizard149
"We are truly losing our way as society if we can't even agree on what male and female means."
How? By what mechanism?
A very long time ago, up til about ten years ago, religious fruitcakes routinely wrung their hands around the issue of gender in the context of homosexuality.. Despite the hysteria, the world did not end.
As for equating chopping off an arm with gender transition. Yes, you do not understand. Many transgender individuals do not opt for genital surgery. For those who do, there are different types. In all cases, however, retaining sexual function is a primary goal. Weighng the pros and cons of surgical outcomes is front and center in the minds of transgender individuals contemplating surgery. These are not sick people who have some irrational desire to mutilate their bodies.
9
I would like to propose that non-binary people try the pronoun "che" (pronounced like "chi") The "they" pronoun just seems awkward to me. Chi, is a simple one syllable sound and brings an aura of energy to the sentence. I realize I have no right to dictate what word people use, I just like the idea
9
@Tiateri
GREAT IDEA. As a writer, I just can't get my mind around "They is."
1
As a scientist born female and continuing to identify as female in spite of not being particularly "feminine," my concern is the narrowing of the definition of "she" or "he." Instead of rejecting your gender because you don't conform to the expectations, why not change the expectations? Why not be a proud "she" who doesn't fit the artificial mold. And vice versa.
I admire women who don't "act like women" and yet continue to be women. Proud women. And I admire men who reject that stereotype as well.
As long as non-binary exists, the concept of male and female narrows. Where, then, are the feminists to be?
Women have fought long and hard to be recognized in this male-centric world and I fear that losing women to a non-binary classification will only move us backwards and not forwards. Don't like what society expects of your gender? Change societal expectations. Don't just reject your gender.
143
@Sarah I reject this premise. As a nonbinary individual who serves on a women's resource center board, I am actively devoted to advancing feminism and feminist policies. I advocate for, make space for and am friends with women who are not "feminine." I celebrate women who push the boundaries of what it means to be a woman. However, the idea of womanhood, even as it expands, will never escape its cultural connotations which are just not for me, personally.
13
@Sarah
There are norms of behavior, between and across genders. They are subtle but exist. The truism of women being the "weaker" sex, also implies more courtesy, gentility. During the time of dueling over insults, it was never a man challenging a woman.
This subtle difference remains.
2
@Sarah Sarah, isn't it possible that widening our conception of gender indentity would end up weakening the power structures that assign women to a lower status?
7
I'm 63 and have identified as non-binary since at least the age of six. I've always adoped a gender neutral presentation, and have encountered all sorts of ridicule for not looking the way society expects a person with my biology to look. Therefore I'm sad but not completely shocked that so many commenters so hysterically rant that there can be only two genders and that it's the height of narcisism to ask for a wee bit of flexibility in how they view others. Who is being self-centered here, those who ask us to recognize the full range of human identity or those who want to cram everyone into their narrow preconceptions?
29
@DC If there are only two sexes, that doesn't exclude differences among individuals. And there are only two sexes. It is not a "narrow preconception" to acknowledge reality.
22
@DC...
"Dr. Jason Rafferty, the author of the American Association of Pediatrics’ first policy statement on the care of gender-nonconforming children, which was issued last fall, said most of the bullying in middle and high school is based on gender."
Finally... some simply obvious honesty and truth.
This is why LGBTQ adolescents commit suicide at a rate 5 times that of heterosexual kids despite their alledgedly tiny percentage of the population.
Come on heterosexuals... have a heart.
14
@David M. Brown The "narrow preconception" I refer to is the fixatiion that biological "sex" must equal gender identity. Some people gender transition even at the risk of violence from those who are threatened by them wanting to live according to their gender identity. Why would anyone do that if it living according to their true identity, that is, being true to themselves, wasn't essential to their fundamental well-being? In the case of nonbinary individuals, why is it so difficult to imagine that some people, at the deepest level of awareness, simply don't perceive themselves to be either "female" or "male"?
6
Non binary, fluid? What happened to simply confused.
I can understand teenage confusion but you need to make up your mind when you become an adult.
35
@Paul There is nothing inherently superior about a society with rigid gender constraints. It is difficult and impractical on so many levels to be gender fluid in this culture, but that's a cultural problem, not a problem with the person's inclinations towards fluidity.
2
You all are acting like nonbinary gender is some crazy new invention by woke hipsters intent on ruining your cis-normative Sunday. It's not. Many cultures have recognised third genders. Even a quick glance at Wikipedia yields a pretty long list:Indian hijra, First Nations Two-Spirits, Thai and Laotian Kathoey, Akkadian salzikrum, Medinan Mukhannathun, Polynesian Mahu, Samoan Fa'afafine.
But beyond that, if it doesn't substantively affect you and it doesn't hurt anyone, then why do so many denizens of the "land of the free" think they have the right to arbitrarily restrict other people's liberty and pursuit of happiness?
40
@Edward Imagination and pretense certainly do exist in every society.
13
Ptoblems start when individuals start encroaching onto spaces, services, events, opportunities for which women, adult female humans, fought long and hard or when people who have no idea what being a person of the other sex and gender dare to redefine us and to bully us into compliance with their idea of who we, women, are.
31
@Rosie thank you.
3
Van Johnson
Charles Van Dell Johnson (August 25, 1916 – December 12, 2008) was a film and television actor, singer, and dancer. He was a major star at Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer during and after World War II.
Johnson was the embodiment of the "boy-next-door wholesomeness that made him a popular Hollywood star in the '40s and '50s, playing "the red-haired, freckle-faced soldier or sailor who used to live down the street" in MGM films during the war years...
Johnson married former stage actress Eve Abbott (May 6, 1914 – October 10, 2004) on January 25, 1947... In 1948, the newlyweds had a daughter, Schuyler. The Johnsons separated in 1961 and their divorce was finalized in 1968.
According to a statement by his former wife that was first published after her death at age 90, their marriage had been engineered by MGM to cover up Johnson's alleged homosexuality: "They needed their 'big star' to be married to quell rumors about his sexual preferences and unfortunately, I was 'It'—the only woman he would marry."
Johnson's biographer has written: "that Van Johnson had homosexual tendencies seems to have been well known in the film capitol", but this was covered up due to the film colony's respect for a performer's privacy.
Also, studio executive Louis B. Mayer made strenuous efforts to quash any potential scandal regarding Johnson and any of his actor friends whom Mayer suspected of being gay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Johnson#Personal_life
Time to change our thinking...
2
@Howard G...
You do understand that sexual-orientation and gender identity have nothing to do with each other... yes?
14
Most people do not. Most people do not realize that the LGB part is about sex and sexual orientation, while T and Q is about gender.
6
They reminds me of the royal “we”.
11
I like ze/xe because it's easy to pronounce and spell, and doesn't require changing sentence structures.
13
They/them is reminiscent of the self important royal "We" as in "We are overwhelmed by pronoun considerations these days."
19
I think these gender-fluid, non-binary cases, while genuinely intriguing as a psychological survey threaten to flood the zone with so much subjectivity as to render the whole discussion of sex and gender fruitless. If you can go back and forth, can be one thing one day and another way the next month that is totally fine with me and it should not result in discrimination. Find your tribe so to speak and live in peace and freedom to think about the world the way you want. But the government is not required to bend it's will toward you. For example, hair color exists on a massive spectrum when you really think about it. Everyone might have different ways of referring to their hair color. Some may not want to choose any particular color. But you check a box close enough to reality on the driver's license and move on with your life. You don't agonize about it and make it the centerpiece of a campaign. Again, these people should have complete freedom of association and should not be mocked or derided. I hope we can be a society tolerant of all people. But I don't think the government has an obligation to account for every iteration of every idea on the sex-reality spectrum.
43
Would have liked the reporter’s reflection on this important observation: “After decades of fighting for women in the field to be seen as scientists first, she noted, they are now literally being labeled by gender.”
23
@Deidre I hope the reporter answers, but this is an interesting question. As a genderqueer/non-binary person, I don't think of gender-identifying name tags as having that purpose. They're worn so people are given respect by being referred to as the gender to which they identify. The point isn't to erase the scientist category to replace it with "woman scientist," "man scientist" and "non-binary scientist." People are already assuming your gender. The point is to get them to not have to assume and actually get it correct. It would be fantastic if we didn't have to wear pronoun tags at all.
1
@Charles
Just because something is unneeded by you doesn’t mean it isn’t needed. Almost 2% of the population is intersex, which is non-binary at a chromosomal level. The gender those individuals are assigned is arbitrarily determined. While someone doesn’t have to be intersex to be non-binary it seems like you’re discounting a lot of people out-of-hand just because you don’t know anything about them.
You can willfully call someone a gender they don’t identify with, but don’t expect to teach them a lesson or gain their respect. Your lack of compassion only teaches them that the world is filled with intolerance (something they already knew). They also tend not to respect people who don’t respect them.
And FYI, whether you realize it or not you’ve spent your lifetime referring to single people as “they.” If someone said to you “A co-worker made an interesting comment today.” Your natural response (and anyone else’s) wouldn’t be, “Was this person make or female?” It would typically be “What did they say?” Not as tough as all that, is it?
22
@Joanna - Please don't bring "intersex" into this. People with differences or disorders of sex development, aka DSDs (or what used to be called "intersex" conditions way back when), have repeatedly & insistently said they don't want to be used & exploited to promote today's gender ideologies.
Erudite DSD campaigner & educator Claire Graham, who goes by MRKHVoice on Twitter, has a lot of illuminating stuff to say on this topic. According to her, the number of "intersex" people is grossly inflated because people with a wide variety of very different DSDs have been thrown into one generic category loosely labelled "intersex."
According to Graham, all persons whose sex chromosomes vary from the normal pattern of either XY or XX - such as XXY or XO - can still be easily classified as male or female. Further, the 0.01% of the population who come into the world with genitals that truly look so atypical that they can't be easily classified with certainty at the moment of birth can, with the full battery of testing available & routinely employed today, be determined to be either male or female shortly after birth. In some very rare cases, a child might appear to be either/or - but those cases comprise far less than the nearly 2% of the population you claim. That figure comes from Ann Fausto-Sterling - who actually said 1.7% - & has been discredited.
Here's one of MRKH's recent threads you might find illuminating:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1134847713793728513.html
25
@Joanna,
"Almost 2% of the population is intersex"
Yes, but it's only about 2% - and Democrats said such numbers are nothing. They just said 1.5% of viable fetuses aborted in the third trimester doesn't count as something worthy of paying attention to.
1
Intersex has absolutely nothing to do this this. Intersex is an abnormality of the sexual biological expression of human beings. 1. Regardless of the number of humans born presenting this abnormality, human animals are still either male or female. A good number of babies are born without the right number of limbs or fingers but we still define the human animals as have 4 limbs and 10 fingers. Anomalies do not redefine the class. 2. Gender is the outward cultural expression of your biological sex, you can choose to adhere to it or not but that choice doesn't mean your sex will be affected.
16
Being a woman or a man can cover a wide variety of types I have always worked in "men's" jobs, I just go where my interests take me, there are certain types of women I want nothing to do with. I am a woman who never wears frills and prefers science to what are considered more girlish occupations. I curse, I wear pants, but when it comes to sex I like men. Gay men are not considered to be women nor do they wish to be. I am perfectly happy to have people identify as they wish but there are many choices within traditional terms. Some people are born with nonconforming genitalia, I think it is not fair to them for so many other to pretend they are genuinely non binary also.
26
I am 64 years old but have always considered myself fairly relaxed and open to societal changes. I have a 24 yo daughter who fills me in on things. That said, I will never, ever refer to a single human being as "they". We are complicated creatures to be sure. Our bodies are the encapsulation of millions of organisms working together. That said, we are each a single human. Single as in one. We are not 'they'. Simply because this new "category" is trending at the moment does not make it a necessary adjustment for all of civilization to adopt. It is absurdist and unneeded.
213
Amen. I’m a lot closer to your daughter’s age but I am with you on this one. Is the time not ripe to make a gender neutral third person singular pronoun get off the ground? I feel like people would be more open to using one (not necessarily for themselves, I mean respecting others’ wishes to use it for them) now than maybe in the past. Using they as singular is fine in a generic sense (“if someone is going to the store, can they get me a tomato?”). But not otherwise. People can be gender neutral. No one is number neutral.
41
@LWib i'm not sure why we just don't go with a blanket "s/he," "hi/r." that's as non-binary as you can get while still acknowledging the traditional gender structure.
5
And the most worrying part in America: how brainwashed American women are. Most of them are clueless at what is really happening: a new, very insidious, very dangerous wave of mysoginistic patriarchy where males are daring to tell us we do not know what being us is all about, that they know better or that our experience as a oppressed minority doesn't make a difference and on top of that, taking away spaces, rights, events and the very few safeguards we fought so hard for. We women are being pushed down one more rung in the societal priority list: white males first and now white males who think they are females second and so many American women cheering and applauding these new kind of oppressor of women.
5
One thing that shouldn’t go unsaid: identifying as non-binary is like waving a big red flag to would-be employers and everyone else signaling that they are self absorbed and probably have deep seated emotional problems. Might not always be true but it usually is and most people know it.
201
@Daniel
That's a big judgement. What are you basing it on?
18
@Steph
Ermmmm= real life experience? Common sense?
29
@Lefthalfbach
Those things are opinion, rather than fact. There is nothing about non-binary individuals that make them any more or less self-absorbed than anyone else. Self-awareness, introspection, and self-absorption are not all the same thing, and obviously my life experiences are not the same as yours or @Daniel's. I personally enjoy the variety of perspectives that gender diversity can bring to the table, and do not appreciate when people make such sweeping, insulting assumptions about anyone.
18
If we begin to understand that at bottom we are all indeterminate, then it would seem that non-binary identity is more natural than people are willing to admit.
12
@Les Helmers We are all indeterminate? My sex is not indeterminate and neither is anyone else's, except for those anomalies that have already been discussed.
34
I hope there is more to the mystery of our existence than our sexuality.
3
We are still animals: human animals, XX or XY regardless of philosophical inclinations.
9
I can’t help feeling that this phenomenon is self-indulgent and precious. We have two sexes and people relate to the social roles and stereotypes associated with their biological sex to very different and varying degrees — that furthermore changes throughout our lives. This reality should not be the cue for every adolescent in America to fashion a unique and special, custom-tailored gender identity all their own. Reading these accounts sounds less like young people discovering their authentic selves and more like some new version of “You are not the boss of me, MOMMMM!!!” writ so large that the whole of society has to line up and affirm it.
243
@Elizabeth, brilliant
32
@Elizabeth
"... identity all his own ..."
6
Non-binary people like to say were assigned a gender at birth. No, it was not assigned as if it is something we choose. The proper word is sex. It is based mainly on the appearance of the genitals, but in almost all cases it matches the DNA. That means every cell in the body knows what sex it is. This determination was made at conception. People may choose to say they are not what their sex is, but their body will fight any changes they may try to make till their dying day because a boy will always be male and a girl will always be female no matter what they think.
99
@S.L.
And yet, those born with missing limbs may be helped by prosthetics, while others choose to get surgerical enhancements and reductions to improve their functioning or to change the physical characteristics they were born with. Identities are fluid, and essentializing people into fixed categories ignores the complexity and authenticity of human experience. There is no need to be threatened or critical of these alterations — especially in cases in which the changes more genuinely reflect the person as a whole (not just their physicality) and allow them to live lives they find meaningful.
15
@w
There is a huge difference between somebody getting a face lift or getting reconstructive surgery and what nonbinary people want to force doctors to do.
Reconstructive surgery restores vital functions that were lost.
Plastic surgery is harmless, and does not involve invasive and dangerous hormone therapy. Moreover, reputable plastic surgeons screen patients for mental illnesses if they are requesting a bevy of surgeries.
I do not believe people feel "threatened" by nonbinary people.
I think they feel pity and sadness over the fact that these people cannot accept themselves as they are.
If you believe that you can choose your gender, and societal gender norms are baloney, then why all this fuss to physically alter you body to conform to those very gender norms you claim to abhor?
Why the fuss to conflate gender with sex? What difference does it make what it says on an ID card, so long as your name, age address is listed correctly?
If I feel that I am 10 years older because of extensive cancer treatment I had to endure, does that give me the right to petition the government to change that on my records? How about if I feel 15 years younger?
Isn't age, just a feeling, anyway?
62
@Viv Just for the record, plastic surgery and/or cosmetic surgery is surgery. Plain and simple and as surgery has risks along with benefits. Sheese.
6
This is really a non-issue, and all the "serious reporting" it's getting is actually foolish; there is no such thing as non-binary or trans-gender. People may be uncomfortable with the way society defines gender roles, and there needs to be tolerance shown for such people, but denying the obvious makes us no different from those who, eg, deny climate change.
And the linguistic gymnastics required makes writing/speaking cumbersome. The sooner this fad passes the better.
121
@Danny Comparing gender identity with climate change is a false analogy. Some say climate change is a fad and the sooner it passes the better. Does that make climate change less real?
9
@Danny,
"denying the obvious makes us no different from those who, eg, deny climate change."
No, it's different. It's very easy to prove a person's biological sex, but there's no proof of the degree of human impact on climate - only assumptions based on still developing models.
7
I like how people’s identities are “fads” to you. You would have been a wonderful ally during the civil rights era...
3
Humans are NOT assigned a sex at birth. Sex is an observed fact. Sex is marked in every cell of the body: a Y chromosome in the male, XX in females. Reallity: Sex cannot be changed.
To posit a nonbinary assumes that there is a binary; so this nonbinary talk is epistemological nonsense.
Sex is fundamental & denying sex only serves to harm women. Most medical research is done using only male subjects, though women react differently to meds than men do. E.g., Women respond differently to HIV drugs than men, yet the research in HIV drugs only uses male subjects. Excluding real women from toxicology research or biomedical trials harms and kills women. For scientific integrity, males who delusionally think they are women or nonbinary, need to be listed not a X in clinical trials but as their true chromosomal sex, males.
Men commit over 95% of crimes of violence. In crime statistics, men need to be categorized at their true birth sex.
Males who "self-identify" as women are now being allowed to invade women's spaces & women's sports. In sports, males have advantages of larger skeletal structure, musculature & lungs; and men are now stealing awards & scholarships for women. Generations of women worked to establish women's sports, transgenders will destroy it in a decade. Men claiming to be women are housed in women's prisons where they assault real women. (Google Karen White fka Stephen Wood.)
The planet is burning & the narcissist young want to go anti-science.
115
@Earthling
> Humans are NOT assigned a sex at birth. Sex is an observed fact. Sex is marked in every cell of the body: a Y chromosome in the male, XX in females. Reallity: Sex cannot be changed.
This is not true. Many people have cells which are XXX or XO or XXY. Many other people have some cells which are XX and some which are XY. Some people have XY cells but the external genitalia associated with XX bodies. Some people have indeterminate genitalia which are not easily mapped onto "male" or "female".
Bodies are complex.
7
@Earthling
you are correct. except they don't care about these facts. It's only a psychological/head issue with them. End of story.
12
So we need to stop describing humans as having four limbs or 10 fingers or capable of vision and hearing as some babies, are born without legs or arms or blind or deaf. There is such a thing as an abnormality or exception but that doesn mean we toss any definition of the norm away, Man, do we need to bring critical thinking and logic back to classrooms desperately or what?
16
I am willing to call them whatever they want - no matter how ridiculous - if it meant an end to hearing about this tiny minority of people and their ongoing look-at-me, this-is-how-you-should-think-of-me, this-is-how-you-need-to-refer-to-me, etc. nonsense. But I know if I did agree to their demands today, they would have a new grievance demanding attention tomorrow. They are as narcissistic as the day is long. Period.
163
So a minority group asking you or to not refer to them in a hateful way is narcissistic?
3
@Lana Lee
There is nothing "hateful" in random strangers referring to you by what they visibly see as your sex, if they don't know your name.
Demanding that people go through a whole rigamarole of figuring out your self-perception and preferences is absurd and comes off as entitled and narcissistic.
I don't need to know your self-perception and preferences right off the bat any more than I need to know how you like your coffee and what your favorite sports team is.
30
@Viv
Thank you, Viv! Spot on.
9
1. I thought this article was well written, thoughtful, and thought provoking.
Kudos to the writer.
2. I am glad there is a comments section attached to this article. They have been as interesting to read as the article itself.
Thank you.
11
I love that people feel free to express themselves without cultural dictation, but the pronoun "they/them" is inherently plural. You may not want to identify as male or female, but why would you want to identify as two or more people. If they come to a dinner party, I will make too much food.
14
I am nonbinary but do not use the plural pronouns. Strangers almost always address me as if I were a person of my birth-sex. I accept that as part of the complexity and messiness of social interaction. The option of X on a driver's license is something I would welcome, though.
24
@Where else: Thank you for approaching this in a straightforward way in which you ask for what you need but don't ask for what you don't need.
5
When juveniles and adolescents begin making the rules for society at large, you can be sure that the entire social system is upside-down.
When adolescents are proclaiming to their elders that they alone know their true identities, you can be sure that the wisdom of elders no longer carries weight.
When children begin telling their parents how society ought to function, you can be sure that the parents no longer have any idea of how society ought to function.
Geologists have recently decided that we are now in the Anthropocene Age. In other words, we are in the geological period in which humans have the dominant influence on the earth's biology and also its geology. This is troubling of course, because no single species has ever had such ecological and geological influence. It represents an inversion of the normal order.
Sociologically, we are now in the Sibling Age. Having more or less experience of life no longer carries any social influence; it is as if we were all siblings. No one has authority by virtue of experience. Robert Bly wrote about this years ago and now it has truly come to pass.
And if life experience no longer carries any weight, why bother growing up? You might as well live like the Lost Boys in Peter Pan. Just keep on reading comic books and playing with action figure toys (or their digital game equivalents). Because your opinion weighs just as much as anyone else's, no matter how ignorant you may be.
Memo to Screwtape: Mission Accomplished!
25
@Duane McPherson
Absolutely brilliant comment. Thank you.
The gender identity controversy and the loss of a climate hospitable to humans may both be part of the same planetary convulsion. Earth wouldn't miss us should we go extinct and folks tending toward gender variations don't seem to be eager to breed.
2
My heart goes out to LBGTQ who suffer anguish from being misidentified. However, there will always be practical limits to supporting a person's chosen identity. For example, it will never be practical or useful to ask people to "be on the lookout for a non-binary person lost in the forest". Or to tell a search team that "they" are lost in the forest if it's just one person. Sometimes society's needs will legitimately trump the preferences of the individual.
19
@M. Casey
“Al Smith, age 19, 5’11’’, 140 pounds, long brown hair, hazel eyes, tattoos on left forearm and right thigh. Last seen wearing hiking boots, blue jeans, light green tank top and leather jacket.”
That looks like enough information to me. I guess if there were two people located in the woods who met this description, you could check genitals or pronouns to make sure you had the right one.
1
LGB folks are not "misidentified" people or people who feel they have the wrong set of genitals like T folks do. They are and identify themselves as males and females attracted to males, females or both. LGB is about sex and sexual orientation not gender at all.
2
I’ve never understood why a child decides she isn’t a she, or he not a he, because of the clothes they like to wear. I don’t like skirts so I’m not a girl? What about tribes who wear no clothes? How do these children make such decisions? I’m quite willing to understand that it’s much more basic than clothing, but clothing choice seems always to be noted as something fundamental to gender identity. So what do I do with detesting high heels?
24
I am a heterosexual male.
I’m not “cisgendered” - whatever that ridiculous word is supposed to mean.
I’m not one of a multitude of genders - there are only two - male or female.
We don’t invent alternative genders to appease the emotional distress of those who claim to be confused about their genders.
Now, please, can the Times offer some real reporting on the real issues such as the national debt, budget deficit, the conflict in Afghanistan, the War Department budget, our crumbing infrastructure and the constant attack to defund public education.
42
@John Williams
The term "cisgender" is akin to the term "pedestrian" or "voter." We refer to people crossing the street or walking along the roadway as pedestrians; it is a shorthand way to distinguish them from non-motorists when that context is important. In other contexts, such as in a discussion about voting demographics, people are often classified as "voters" or "nonvoters". In certain discussions of gender, the term "cisgender" arises. These terms say nothing about your identity or who you are as a person, and they are not meant to.
If this isn't a real issue to you, why did you not only read the article, but comment on it as well?
If I'm in the room with the person, then "you" or their name always works. If the person is not in the room, that person *doesn't hear* "he" or "she" or "they" (or their name). So this doesn't seem a life or death issue.
10
I am a female who likes to run, hike, knit, cook, do yard work, read, swim, and quilt. I wear pants some days and skirts other days; a little bit of makeup; the occasional manicure/pedicure.
I've literally been going along for 43 years thinking I'm a woman [with a diverse array of interests], but perhaps I've been deceiving myself all along.... ? Am I 'gender-fluid' according to the current definition of things? (i.e. I'm a man on the days I wear pants, no make-up, and go on a 50 mile bike ride; and a woman on the days I wear a skirt and do some knitting...)
30
Shouldn't this say, "Their pronouns was they/them"? They is still a single person. If we're going to use "they" as a singular pronoun, in that case the verb should take the singular form.
3
@David desJardins It works just like singular "you," which still takes the plural verb.
("You are my friend," even when talking to just one person, and "they are my friend," even if just talking about one person.)
2
It's hilarious/disheartening to read all the moral panic & bad faith replies about how the part-time actions of a very marginal group are somehow going to overthrow the English language, sexual decency, and civilisation itself.
When young people who don't fit into the rigid hierarchical categorisation of traditional genders, and pay the price at the carnival of cruelty that is high school, I completely understand why they would want to reshape the world into a safer, more accepting place.
I am a cis, straight, biracial male, and it was hard enough for me growing up around white people who couldn't parse my gender until I hit puberty.
I would wager that out of all the commenters who are complaining of the difficulty, nuisance and weirdness of respecting others' gender identities, barely one in a hundred had EVER actually encountered a trans person and had to make these most minor of accommodations. In other words, I think your objections are entirely ideological, that you yourselves have nothing at stake in this dispute, and that you have planted yourselves firmly on the wrong side of history, civil rights, and individual liberty.
16
There are so many negative and plain nasty comments that are barely veiled vilification here. Why? If allocating a more appropriate although not perfect set of pronouns helps to build self-worth and prevent suicide I'm all for it. A former student of mine was gay but has now come out as non-binary. A cousin of mine came out as gay and then later as a drag queen. Both of these young people experience major psychological trauma. I'm happy they're both still here to live their lives and if it just requires that I use their choice of pronouns I'm happy to oblige. LGBQTI teens and young people in general have the highest suicide rates in their age groups. I would like societal acceptance of variation to prompt that statistic to change.
12
Well, when everyone can pick their gender at will, there will always be those who just can't make a choice and stick with it. So typical.
10
What is important is that all human beings are treated with dignity and respect and given the same opportunities, regardless of race religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation or wealth. These ideals are what America is supposed to stand for and the problem now faces is that the GOP and Donald Trump don't believe in any of these ideals. Our culture has moved past them. They are old dinosaurs who don't know that their time has past.
10
As a former labor and delivery nurse, I used to observe genitals and record the sex. That’s it. I never saw an intersex baby; they are statistically rare. I never pretended to know how, in the future, a baby’s likes and dislikes would match up with our culture’s stereotypes and who cares.
I don’t like sparkles, and I am female. My husband loves decorating, and he is male. Haven’t feminists worked hard for decades to throw off silly stereotypes—why are we going back to them?! Just because people don’t fit these culture-bound stereotypes doesn’t mean they are “non-binary”; it means stereotypes are silly.
BUT - BIOLOGICAL SEX DOES MATTER!
1. In medical research, feminists have fought to get women’s bodies included in studies to determine how medicines work in females. We process drugs differently than males. Fact.
2. Sports teams- males’ and females’ differential strength and other characteristics make women’s sports teams an absolute necessity for fair competitions. Fact.
3. In women’s shelters and prisons, in dorms, in locker rooms and bathrooms, women have a need and a right to bodily privacy away from biological males for privacy and safety. Fact.
So, sometimes we do need to know people’s biological sex. Re your psychological identity- that’s your business - I don’t need to see it in your government ID.
57
@CA123 Hi. I'm an nurse too (ICU) and have met many intersex people. Some studies say they are as common as redheads, although that depends on your definition and who you include. Yes, please, take "sex" off the government ID. I'd much prefer not to have to have my gender identity be an issue in situations where it's not relevant.
In prison, trans women are raped and killed and generally incomprehensibly harassed when housed with men and should be housed with other women. Women don't need to be protected from trans women. They are not a threat/safety risk to you or other women.
Medical research should consider gender assigned at birth but also the complexities of sex. Just because women have been excluded from research doesn't mean we need to erase non-binary trans people's identities. Also, we need to consider binary trans people in research. Gender/sex is complicated these days, but we don't have to revert to essentialism, we should progress to include complexity.
Biological sex is not an absolute binary and this includes trans people on hormones. We should acknowledge the complexities. And respecting people's gender identity is just a matter of respect. Yes, stereotypes are silly. I'm genderqueer/non-binary because that's my reality. That is not silly and despite some feminist's alarm, does not "set us back" or degrade progress made by feminists. It advances feminism. Breaking down the binary is liberating for all genders.
3
Think of how long it took to us to adopt Ms. instead of Miss or Mrs. Many take it for granted that women are not addressed in a way that reveals marital status; “Ms” was a creative solution to a serious issue—one that did not require a change to the language, by adding a simple, easy to use salutation. Despite the introduction of Ms., women still fought for years after to be addressed without reference to marital status: although Ms. Magazine was introduced in 1971, the Times did not adopt it formally until 1986. Imagine how long this change would have taken if feminists demanded the use of the pronoun “she” in place of Miss or Mrs.? “She Jane Doe?”
Co-opting a third person pronoun makes it easy for opponents to dismiss those demanding non-binary options and recognition. “They/theirs” is not only confusing; it requires a significant and fundamental change to the language. The pronoun strategy surely discourages adoption, and likely nauseates English teachers worldwide. Success of this important movement requires a NEW, creative, salutation(s) to address the spectrum of humanity that is—or chooses to be—undefined by gender. Please, somebody, make this easier!
9
@Minuet When explaining Mx. (the gender neutral honorific), I always tell people that Mx. is the next step after Ms. My mom was a passionate advocate for Ms. and I remember her having "Call me Ms." buttons. I'm continuing the tradition." :) Yes, they/them is unideal, but people have come up with many alternative pronoun options, but none of them have stuck like "they/them" has. Honestly, tho, I don't know that people are more willing to use those pronouns than they are they/them. I think the resistance (as evidenced by the many hostile/dismissive comments above) is due to discomfort with the entire idea of a non-gendered pronoun and with the concept of more than 2 gender identities. So, yeah, its awkward to use they/them, but as long as that's the best option, non-binary people REALLY appreciate the effort and gesture of respect/validation. :)
5
In French, there is a neutral pronoun, "on".
I wonder whether "one", and "one's" would work as non-binary pronouns?
OK, perhaps that isn't specific enough.
21
@Karen Lee
I like it a lot, but only old people tend to agree. Young people see “one” as stuffy or pretentious. Alas! Still, I will push for it because I will go to my grave protesting the use of “they” for one person--it’s even worse that Queen Victoria’a use of “we”.
Why not just stop asking people their sex or gender at all unless it is actually pertinent for something besides marketing? I think maybe only your doctor needs to be concerned about your sex, and your gender (a term that didn’t exist except in linguistic applications in my youth) is masculine or feminine, which really needn’t conform to your sex, as every tomboy knows.
4
@Karen Lee,
Yes, and we have a neutral pronoun: "it".
Apparently, from what I'm reading, "it" is not appealing.
But, why not?
3
What I don't understand is what do gender nonconforming people think it means to be a man or woman? Do they think of just the bland stereotypes? Because men and women are much more nuanced than that, even if some people believe strongly in conformance with the stereotypes (I do not).
But ultimately, live and let live. If someone wants to be called they/them that's fine. But I'd honestly bristle at the suggestion that I put she/her on my nametags.
42
@someone
> But I'd honestly bristle at the suggestion that I put she/her on my nametags.
Why? Do you bristle at putting a name on?
1
@someone: Very nicely said. I would like an answer to your questions. That would help me get my head around it. Ultimately, this feels like dragging our society back to the rigid gender roles we've fought so hard to escape. That's what makes me bristle at people declaring themselves non-binary. Do they think the rest of us are two-dimensional stooges? If so, perhaps it is the non-binary folks who have some learning to do.
12
@someone If I am forced to put my preferred pronoun, it will be "His Highness"
10
women keep being told that they have to accept male bodied people in their spaces and in their services because trans identified males aren't safe in male spaces. that is a male problem, not a female problem. prosecute men who make it unsafe for trans identified men to be in male spaces. don't bring the male violence of trans identified men into women's spaces
52
I an a lesbian, somewhat butch of center, age 75. I've always been referred to as "she," and up to now that's been fine with me. However, in order to keep up with the times, perhaps I should change to a plural pronoun--the royal "we."
As in, "We are not amused."
141
@Martha Shelley Perfect! That’s what I’ll use.
18
I’m starting to feel like a dinosaur here, but if people are saying they are “non-binary” mostly because they don’t like conforming to gender stereotypes (and face it, who does?) then why not just behave the way they want and ignore gender stereotypes? Why the need to tell the world how “different” (and special?) you are?
In my day, if I didn’t want to wear skirts and make up, then I didn’t wear skirts and makeup. I didn’t care how I was perceived by others. And - I did not expect anyone else to give a flying monkey’s about how I “defined” myself.
Life lessons 101: no one cares about YOU.
159
@tsingwun, and dirndl skirts were terrible.
10
@tsingwun yes, I really think I don't get this. I buck plenty of stereotypes and I'm still proud to be a woman. Gender conformity doesn't actually define your maleness or femaleness.
14
@tsingwun A lot of people I interviewed had the same question. That's why I included this passage: "Ms. Reff, who said she disliked wearing skirts and dresses as a child, also voiced a confusion I heard from several other women who grew up as 1970s- and 1980s-era feminism was vowing to smash gender-role stereotypes. “My question was, how is this different from being a tomboy?” she said.
[...]
But Jamie Grace Alexander, a nonbinary college student who helped to craft testimony on the Maryland bill, told me there was value in having “a name for what I am” rather than trying to expand deeply ingrained conceptions of “male” and “female.’’
“I could subvert their expectations when I come into the room,’’ they said, “but why can’t I subvert their expectations with my identity itself?”
1
Why didn't the group that decided to start using "they" to describe an individual come up with terms that made sense? When many of us grew up we were told that the male form ("he" "him", "men"...) were the proper way to describe both men and women, because, you know, using the male gender term obviously includes the girls too. The masculine form to mean both sexes is still used predominantly and exclusively in many countries.
I've hated this even as a young girl and only recently, after years of fighting, has it started to change. I know using "he and she" with everything is awkward but at least it recognizes the female sex. And I thought by now we'd come up with good neutral terms like many job descriptions have done. But instead, in some circles it's not fashionable to even refer to yourself as a woman.
If people don't want to be identified as he or she, that's fine. But come up with a neutral terms that don't really mean something else. And please don't start making feminine terms unacceptable. We've already been there.
26
@Rebecca “The group that decided to start using ‘they’ to describe an individual” were ordinary English speakers at least as early as the fourteenth century. Only in the eighteenth century did grammarians arbitrarily decide it was incorrect, and that’s never kept it out of common parlance.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
4
@Rebecca
Singular they has been used for centuries. Literally, centuries. Jane Austen used it, and she was not the first by a long shot.
I agree that this usage is a bit more novel, but it's a natural outgrowth of existing norms.
5
Why does a driver's license need a gender? Name, ID photo, and driving restrictions should be sufficient.
23
Prisoners have the right to be searched by staff members of their sex and housed with fellow prisoners of their sex, for one thing. There are rights there. There are reasons some of us LIKE being identified by our sex. That is just one example. In many places, race (which may be described by others, not the person in question) is also used to identify people, including when a crime has been committed or someone is missing (e.g. “An Amber alert has been issued for Christina Young, a black seven year old girl last seen in a yellow dress, with neighbor Charles Turner, a white male in his 40s.”)
9
@Raindrop - I certainly agree with the points you make, but they have nothing to do with my argument that a driver's license doesn't need a gender. You may be imagining that the ID is more important than it probably is. If there was no gender on the ID and a male law officer searched a female driver despite her protests, I doubt a judge would shrug because she couldn't prove she was female.
Letting gender-less people exist doesn't preclude the rest of us from cherishing gender. And if you mistake "Pat" as "Patrick" or "Patricia", it's a minor faux pas, not the end of the world. Apologize and move on. This is about kindness, not a culture war.
2
@Raindrop That description of gender is not going to help much if Christina Young identifies as a boy and has no outward female signifiers; same if Charles Turner is a trans woman.
1
maybe we should finish the work of feminists and all who favor equality and change the limitations on gender instead of endorsing social assumptions by seeing ourselves as this way and therefore not fitting the stereotype. Yes we have had 40 years of backlash but that's no reason to adopt the conservative notion of gender. Smash the stereotype not the gender. Why can men not be just like women and women just like men? Revolt don't conform, Fight for equality.
BTW - nobody is assigned a gender at birth - Maybe what this notion - which seems like Orwellian propaganda - refers to is what gender is registered at birth. Reality matters.
40
@Donald sex is observed and noted at birth, not gender.
1
@Concerned Citizen. Sex is the biological side, gender is the social construct.
5
@Concerned Citizen No, they are not.
1
I feel like this is all about categories (though obviously there is much more to it.) When I stop trying to categorize somebody, it all get so much easier. One person I love is in a relationship with another person of non-cis gender. Are they gay? Straight? Huh? The confusion stems only from the rigidity of the categories I was taught. When I let go of those, I love and admire two people who love and admire each other. "Problem" solved.
16
When many of us grew up we were told that the male form ("he" "him", "men"...) were the proper way to describe both men and women, because, you know, using the male gender term obviously includes the girls too. The masculine form to mean both sexes is still used predominantly and exclusively in many countries.
I've hated this even as a young girl and only recently, after years of fighting, has it started to change. I know using "he and she" with everything is awkward but at least it recognizes the female sex. And I thought by now we'd come up with good neutral terms like many job descriptions have done. But instead, in some circles it's not fashionable to even refer to yourself as a woman.
If people don't want to be identified as he or she, that's fine. But come up with a neutral terms that don't really mean something else. And please don't start making feminine terms unacceptable. We've already been there.
9
This push for "Gender X" legislation, which includes "adding an "X" option to state IDs" and a mandate that all accept a subjective self-classification by any single person of themselves as a "They" comes as the death of one of Trump's lackeys, and his daughter revealing documents contained on his hard drives, proves that the new Census is about to "Objectively Classify" over 11 million people living in the US as lacking any status or possessing any rights. It is an authoritarian power grab, and a direct violation of the Constitution, run through the Trump DOJ at the behest of Trump and Wilbur Ross, with officials overseeing voting rights enforcement committing perjury.
As Trump and the GOP engage in constant attacks to destroy our republic, and five right-wing Supreme Court justices do everything in their power to further Trump's and the GOP's authoritarianism, the last thing needed is to search for additional subjective categories of marginalization when tens of millions of people already objectively marginalized are about lose all rights so the GOP can gerrymander the country to make it impossible for Trump and the GOP to lose no matter how well the Democrats do.
It means what's advocated here is a right-wing dream come true. A left-wing so obsessed with identity politics, gender, and a need to change how everyone must use language, that it thinks this is actually some sort of victory despite American representative democracy being destroyed and replaced with autocracy.
65
@Concerned Citizen
Thank you so much for this. You've done a great job of making my point, while showing how untruthful yours is. Yours and Trump's disinformation is creating authoritarianism. It is what must be confronted.
If you actually read what I wrote I never once used the words "illegal aliens", or anything similar, because I wasn't referring to such individuals.
If you read the documents Trump tried to conceal about his conspiracy with Wilbur Ross and the Trump administration to subvert the Constitution and deny fundamental rights to people Lawfully In America, and in which members of the Trump Administration deliberately lied to the courts (perjury) about their purpose in changing the Census, including to the Supreme Court, you'd see it had absolutely nothing to do with anybody in the country illegally. It was always about denying the well over 11 million people here Entirely Legally who have Legal Residency, and specifically the States they live in, the rights the Founding Fathers vested in individuals as well as the States of proportional representation.
It is you who simply pretend I was speaking about the unauthorized immigrant population in the U.S., or what you'd call "illegal aliens", but the problem is the numbers don't line up, as there were far less than 11 million Before Trump did a single thing.
Finally, there are definitely transgender people among those who enter the US illegally, so everything you've written is untrue. How very Trumpian of you!
@Concerned Citizen
Thank you so much for this. You've done a great job of making my point, while showing how untruthful yours is. Yours and Trump's disinformation is creating authoritarianism. It is what must be confronted.
If you actually read what I wrote I never once used the words "illegal aliens", or anything similar, because I wasn't referring to such individuals.
If you read the documents Trump tried to conceal about his conspiracy with Wilbur Ross and the Trump administration to subvert the Constitution and deny fundamental rights to people Lawfully In America, and in which members of the Trump Administration deliberately lied to the courts (perjury) about their purpose in changing the Census, including to the Supreme Court, you'd see it had absolutely nothing to do with anybody in the country illegally. It was always about denying the well over 11 million people here Entirely Legally who have Legal Residency, and specifically the States they live in, the rights the Founding Fathers vested in individuals as well as the States of proportional representation.
It is you who simply pretend I was speaking about the unauthorized immigrant population in the U.S., or what you'd call "illegal aliens", but the problem is the numbers don't line up, as there were far less than 11 million Before Trump did a single thing.
Finally, there are definitely transgender people among those who enter the US illegally, so everything you've written is untrue. How very Trumpian of you!
Just add non binary or "X".
It is not very difficult.
It is terrible to make nonbinary people
choose between F and M.
Many people act so put out by being asked to use gender neutral pronouns.
Why?
It's really not so much to ask.
22
@Rx
No problem with the X or non-binary addition. Huge problems with the adoption of their, them and they as identifying pronouns. Please do not confuse the issues.
15
@Rx
(1) because it is not as if one can know from sight; generally, one is, or was, able to discern gender, and thus proper pronoun usage, from sight.
(2) if one simply identifies as nonbinary (etc.), then to be "pluralized" is to say one is both. If one is an intersex individual then "both" is biologically true, but for those who are identifying as nonbinary based upon gender expression or gender identity, well, it is not true, noting the too common equivocation of biological gender, gender identity, and gender expression.
(3) pronouns exist to allow for communication, ideally better communication, which often means some sense of an ease in communication. If gendered pronouns are problematic, the logical thing to do is not to add another variation of pronoun usage (if not new terms, eg., ze), but to simply toss them all except for "it". It is neutral and could apply to everyone.
(4) in respect to something being "not much to ask", one might offer up a retort that seeing as how the English language has used binary pronouns for quite some time, might it not be "not much to ask" that those who disagree with the system simply tell people their names and ask that "Name" is used as a reference to said person, including pronouns, neh?
After all, if it is all about proper identity, then one might think that Jack or Jill or Zaphod would prefer to be identified as whomever Jack or Jill or Zaphod is, which would also avoid the entire issue of gender, as it should be? Yes?
5
"They" and "them" are plural pronouns. There has to be a better option than "they" or "them" for a person who eschews male and female pronouns.
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@James Grosser
Why not follow the Amish tradition using "the" and "thy"?
7
@James Grosser: I agree but I don't disagree with the motivations to find gender-neutral pronouns. To start a sentence with a singular subject that somehow transmutes into a plural pronoun is not just grammatically incorrect but often confusing. Perhaps some new pronouns will evolve over time.
11
@James Grosser "They" and "them" have long been used in vernacular English to describe third persons of unknown or indeterminate gender. It may be dialectal, but it's certainly idiomatic. And there is commonality with other languages, e.g. Spanish, Catalan, Italian...
2
Why would anyone want the pronoun "they?" It feels like you are designating yourself a person with multiple personality disorder.
63
@Mrs B Because, as difficult as it is to convince other people to use these pronouns, it's worse to have our gender denied entirely. They/they reflects that our gender identity is neither male nor female. It's not great solution, but it's the best one we've got right now. https://deconforming.com/they-them-pronouns/
2
Wow, I am really saddened by the many angry comments saying nonbinary people are "narcissistic" and "self absorbed" and "this label is unnecessary" and "nonbinary is not a real thing", and so forth. Question: do any of you have a nonbinary family member or friend? if not, how do you justify these assumptions? I have a nonbinary child, and they are fortunate to have a number of nonbinary friends (thanks be, because it is HARD to be nonbinary in this society). My child and their friends do not think they are the center of the universe, and they are not seeking attention. They just wish to be addressed politely, by pronouns that reflect who they are. It's really not hard to do, and it isn't too much to ask.
68
Well said.
9
@Susan
I am sorry but the pronouns "they, them and their" do not reflect who these individuals are because each of them is a singular person, not a multiple of persons. How do YOU justify the assumption that a small group of individuals has the right toy distort the English language and sown confusion where there should be none.
To misappropriate plurals for themselves and unnecessarily sow confusion where there should be none is exactly narcissistic and self absorbed. By deliberately adopting such a provocative stance, misappropriating plural pronouns, they are seeking attention. If you don't want attention, you don't do provocative actions.
Adopting a neolism like Mx is entirely appropriate. Stealing important words that already have different meanings and demanding the rest of the world recognize their theft and adhere to their misappropriation is entirely Not appropriate and self absorbed and WAY TOO MUCH to ask. Years ago the neolisms xe and ze and perhaps others that I can not recall were discussed. What happened to all of those ideas? Many of us who find the "them, their, they" extremely offensive and provocative would have been happy to recognize and adopt a neolism like the Mx.
We will always need new words for new purposes. So let's agree on new words such as Mx to serve those purposes, instead stealing words that already have perfectly clear meanings, deliberately & maliciously sowing unnecessary confusion & alienating those otherwise sympathetic.
30
@Susan: I think a large part of the basis for scorn here is that these "non-binary" folks are acting like maleness and femaleness is rigidly defined and stereotypical. I'm a woman who hasn't worn a dress in a couple of years and doesn't wear much (if any) makeup and is fairly assertive and analytical. Am I not allowed to do that any more without declaring myself to be partly male? Do these kids realize how hard people have fought for the right not to be defined by gender stereotypes? Do they think at all about the fact that rigid gender definitions undo much of that hard work from which they could benefit?
16
The older I get, the less I care about the gender of the people around me or their sex lives. I guess I'm unusual in that way.
56
@PLS no, you are not unusual. I find that most people my age (60) or older could care less about a number of things: marital status, sex, gender, and other people's sex lives.
5
I’m nonbinary. This is not a fad, despite what many clueless cisgender people seem to think. I’m 52. There have always been transgender and nonbinary people. Many cultures have accommodated us with third gender options.
I knew exactly what I was when I read an Ice Age novel at 17 and read a one paragraph description of a tribe’s shaman as being of indeterminate gender and as having relationships with people of all genders. No labels. I immediately thought, “You can live like that!” As soon as I found labels I started using them. Bisexual. Nonbinary. Genderqueer. Genderfluid.
I’m really glad that transgender gender identities are being explored in the media. Parents need to understand and support their gender nonconforming child. They need to allow and encourage those children to be themselves and be proud of who they are. Those of us who are older dearly wish we had had supportive parents.
I’m seeing so many ignorant, transphobic comments under articles about transgender, nonbinary and gender nonconforming people. I’m upset because I know that there are trans youth reading these comments. To the trans young people reading this: I believe in you. I support you. It makes me happy to now that your gender identities are being recognized.
To the transphobes commenting: go educate yourselves. The last thing we need is your prejudice and false beliefs about us. Your beliefs about us are wrong. You’re a menace to good people who happen to have been born gender nonconforming.
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The menace is from a group of extremists in this movement who are not content to stop at having equal rights but want to crush the rights that women fought so hard for and displace us as a biological sex, legally and in society. That is where some of us draw the line. Standing up for yourself when somebody else is infringing upon your very existence is not hate it is self-defense and it is a natural result of this push. Charging people with discrimination if they do not speak in the manner that other people dictate is also a violation of the First Amendment right to free speech. This is a consequence of the gender laws being pushed by democrats, which I have been for most of my life, instead of concentrating on climate change and the destruction of our democracy as well as helping people who cannot find jobs. Just see how well people who are already marginalized do under another four years of trump, which is what you will get if you keep pushing people to accept notions that are not science-based and try to force people to act according to the dictates of other people.
16
@Lisa
With respect, it does not help the issue when biological gender, gender identity, and gender expression are effectively all lumped together - equivocated, really. Being who I am, I have difficulty digesting a lot of the debate, but mostly because the philosopher in me tires of the fact that most people - "normal" or "otherwise" or whatever - cannot seem to converse about this (if not all) topics in a non-emotional, rational, reasoned manner.
I agree; far too much name-calling, and more. But as one who has tried to educate myself on this issue, I can only say that I have yet to find any source of info that does not equivocate itself, and generally (sorry to say) sound privileged and, yes, entitled. Some website simply read to me as if it is all just a sort of "this is what/who I choose to be....and I demand the world now refer/treat me in the way I choose to be."
That sense of self will be on a long, difficult road.
14
@Humanbeing thank you!! Yes!! Exactly- everything you write. I was a lifelong Democrat but no longer. So very tired of this.
2
Ahhhh- yet another consciousness raising article about how we should use plural pronouns or refer to individuals who “...identify non-binary...”
And we are not” assigned a gender...” at birth like we are assigned seats in a classroom. The Doctor takes a look and it is what it is.
These folks deserve to be treated with compassion and not suffer discrimination but the English language is not going to change over this.
Frankly, this is getting more than somewhat tiresome.
141
@Lefthalfbach You probably already use they in the singular, for example when discussing a hypothetical person or someone whose gender you don't know. (Almost no one says "he or she" in this situation). It's already not exclusively a plural pronoun. The English language changes all the time when society changes, and society is changing.
2
@Shepherd
I use "he" in this situation, not "he or she" and certainly not "they".
The meaning of "he" is any person, when the sex has not been specified or is not relevant to the topic.
1
Well, I would consider it sexist to default to a male assumption in this situation, and many others do, too. Most people haven’t talked like this for several decades now, since the age of educational films that refer to “the origin of man” to mean people, etc. This is the world we grew up in so it’s normal. Language changes, if it didn’t we’d all still be speaking pronto-Indo-European or whatever.
3
Sorry but, unless a baby is born a hermaphrodite/Klinefelter syndrome, we are not "assigned" genders at birth. Doctors aren't "assigning" gender, they are observing it, and noting their observations. Gender is biological. NYTs shouldn't allow their style guide to be influenced by identity politics.
131
@Ethan Sommer Not exactly. We get a biological sex, but gender is what we do, how we dress, how we behave, how others treat us, what our expected interests, strengths, and weaknesses are, etc.
So the nonbinary people who were interviewed all have a biological sex (though that, too, is actually much more complicated than just XX or XY, penis or vagina- biology is fascinating). But what they are rejecting is being "boy/man" or "girl/woman". They don't feel like they belong in those categories or they fluctuate between them. For example, one nonbinary person I know sometimes feels female and sometimes feel male. When they feel female, they dress in skirts and sparkles and enjoy showing their cleavage. When they feel male, they dress in polos and shorts, and they stuff their pants because the lack of a penis feels wrong. They feel an unexpected weight on their chest and panic a little, then remember that those are their breasts.
I don't know what any of this feels like. But I'm not going to deny their lived experienced, either. They are not their assigned gender, at least not all the time, and it doesn't hurt anyone to call them by their preferred pronouns. Why is your discomfort with pronouns supposed to take priority over acknowledging what they want to be called? That seems really rude. You should always call people by their preferred name and pronouns because that is basic politeness.
27
Will there be no end to the silliness over gender identity?
Humans are not “assigned a sex” at birth. Maternity ward personnel identify a baby’s sex by physical examination and enter the baby’s gender on their birth certificates.
Gender identity has no absolutely no affect on a person’s sex. A male who gender identifies as female is male while a female who gender identifies as a male is female. Humans are not among the species that can change sex after birth. If men could actually become women or women could actually become men, there would be no transgender issue, would there?
People who opt to identify as neither male or female are male are female. They have no choice in the matter.
An individual who wants to be referred to as “they/them” is a single person. If they insist on using a gender-neutral pronoun, the correct gender-neutral pronoun is “it.”
(Yes. I know that a tiny percent of babies are born with ambiguous genitalia, but hospitals run chromosome tests to determine the babies’s genetic sex and usually correct the ambiguity with hormone therapy or a snip of the surgical scissors. “Intersex” persons are not part of the gender identity debate.)
78
@William Case
"...correct the ambiguity with hormone therapy or a snip of the surgical scissors"? And that fixes everything? In some of these cases, chromosome tests cannot determine sex, and these arbitrary decisions ruin lives. People grow up feeling at odds with their own bodies, and it's not until they find out later (if they do) that "a snip" decided their sex and gender for them (since sex and gender appear to be conflated in this society). Intersex people are, indeed, part of this debate, and they constitute one percent of the population (that's over 300,000 people in the U.S. alone -- not a trivial number).
6
@William Case Actually between 1 and 2 in 1000 births means a significant number of the population is intersex. Often the 'snip of the surgical scissors' is at the discretion of the doctors interpreting the data, which is done before the child can grow and decide for themselves. I have a very close friend who is intersex and I can't believe doctors are in a position of altering children's bodies like this before the child can even express an identity.
More information on intersex: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
7
It's like my daddy used to say, there are 3 kinds of people in this world: Those who are good a math, and those who ain't....
18
Journalists should not use the phrase “sex assigned at birth.” One’s sex is observed at birth, from the presence of male or female genitalia. In all but a tiny percentage of infants, there are not hidden internal testes or other underlying conditions that would justify acting as if a baby’s obvious genitalia is an arbitrary “assignment.”
81
Well, there's a tension in that headline, and the piece. If you don't need to know an interviewee's gender or sex, then you don't need to know their pronouns. After all, in an interview, you are talking in the first and second person with each other. For second person, [First name] and You are perfectly sufficient in an interview. If that's a problem...that's a problem.
20
"I came to understand that rather than flying blind, I was seeing all I needed to see."
Yes :) In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, one of the characters, when asked "Who are you?" gives this answer:
"Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?”
See the person for who they are, in themselves. What society says they are is -- and should be -- irrelevant.
12
A way to get around this they and them business is just to refer to people by their names.
2
And to think that I get insulted when someone calls me sir. It’s not because I am non-binary or whatever mumbo-jumbo they call it these days. It is because it offends the slovenly look that I like to fastidiously maintain!
8
Hopefully one day, a better solution will be found to refer to people who are gender non-binary. The pronouns “they” and “them” signify plurals to the vast majority of people and that creates the potential for confusion and pushback. From a safety point of view, in what prison population will law enforcement incarcerate someone who is gender non-binary?
10
@AVT
> From a safety point of view, in what prison population will law enforcement incarcerate someone who is gender non-binary?
Quite seriously, given the unwillingness of our prison system to secure the safety of transgender/nonbinary/genderqueer individuals, I believe the only solution until they ARE willing to do their jobs is to house all those prisoners in a separate facility.
3
It is clutter when in a job interview. It is clutter most of the time.
Is the individual becoming a "they or a we" as a pronoun adding any clarity to a confused world? No ...
Would I hire someone who seems confused or pointing too much as a non-relevant personal choice for being able to do the job I am hiring for? Of course not.
I do understand the issues. However, my jobs are jobs, not personal statement platforms.
64
@common sense
The interview described in the article is not a job interview. It was an interview by a reporter of a non-binary person about being non-binary.
24
This is a subject that has been politicized, rather than the acceptance that "intersex" (even the chosen word defines a point of view) is primarily a rare defect in the evolutionary process of forming two complementary genders- common in all primates and most of the animal kingdom.
There somewhere around one percent of embryos where the elaborate process of differentiation does not proceed normally, as well described in this wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans
For such children decisions in the past had been which of two choices should be assigned, often suggested done as infants so they could be socialized into one. It didn't always work, but the failures and suffering of the intersexed child was not seen as a political stand, but as what was best for the child.
While biological processes are well documented, the difference in relating to boy-men and girls-women was deeply entrenched only a short 2/3 of a century ago. A child's socialization, remains in some form even as cultural changes become radically different.
This can be a difficult time for those who learned the difference between boy and girls many generations ago.
4
@Call Me Al
Actually, these days the term is not hermaphrodite or intersex, but Disorders of Sexual Development. These are rare abnormalities, occurring in 0.018% of births, or less than 2 in 10,000. This is the data from the Ntional Institutes of Health.
5
Why should anyone be bound by the observation of someone they may not even know who officially assigned their gender decades earlier?
4
@Jasonfo. My children like millions of others today were assigned a gender based on the science of chromosomal testing. Not “observation” of some outward physical characteristics. However. I know of no medically doc case of someone born with “ typical” genitalia whose chromosomes are not consistent with the gender associated with that genitalia. Since the vast majority of people fall in this category let’s not pretend that “ assignment “ at birth is just a guess.
Those who have chromosomes inconsistent with their gender identity are a rare case and we should do everything we can to assist them becUse they face both physical and often mental health challenges. The same is true of those born with ambiguous genitalia. We can agree that all of these people need respect for their gender identity without ignoring the facts.
45
@Jasonfo a birth certificate indicates sex, not gender.
6
Let’s first admit to ourselves that this is newish and a challenge, especially for folks who are not presently engaged with young people.
Second, let’s pledge to listen, learn and respect people’s identities, even when they are unfamiliar. We are all better off when we do so.
Third, if something doesn’t need to be gendered, then don’t gender it. I say “spouse” now, rather than wife or husband. I use people’s names whenever possible, rather than pronouns.
93
@Cousy
That’s not how language works. Everyone language uses pronouns, and speakers don’t need permission to use them. Social justice advocates are scolding the English language when it’s already the most gender neutral major language. Meanwhile every noun and adjective in Romance, Slavic and other Germanic languages take gender.
5
@Cousy Thank you, your support means a lot. :)
1
I am all for being respectful of people’s gender identity. I think understand ping that some people consider themselves non binary means it’s important to recognize that the traditional M or F don’t always apply. However like millions of others today my children were not “ assigned a gender at birth”. They were assigned a gender based on chromosomal testing well before they were born.
People whose gender identity do not match their chromosomes often need special help, both with their physical and ( because they often must endure a great deal including dealing with people who don’t understand them ...not because their identity makes them unsound) mental health.
But let’s not pretend that gender is always “ assigned” based on physical characteristics. Understanding the biology of chromoand gender is important.
22
For an individual to expect to be called “they” seems remarkably narcissistic. Outliers abound, they always have, and virtually no one cares.
122
I routinely go to conferences where people are asked to specify prefered pronouns -- and I have gotten used to using "they" in the singular in cases where the gender is not not important.
Did Ms. Harmon's daughter say “Mom, you can’t talk to anyone.” meaning that Ms. Harmon was not speaking properly (using the wrong pronouns) or did the daughter mean that she found this whole story distasteful for whatever reason.
4
I'm curious how many trans, genderqueer, gender fluid, non binary, intersex, gender non-conforming writers will be invited to write articles for the nytimes, regarding their experience, but also relating to any topic under the sun. This is pride month, and LGBTQIA+ stories are told in greater proportion this month, yet who is telling their stories?
27
@Denali absolutely. How about having people from these lived experience and identity write these “think” pieces, NYT?
6
People are not assigned a gender at birth. Their biological sex is noted. Their parents may shepherd them into a gender role that corresponds to their sex, but that is a different matter.
Driver's licenses do not indicate one's gender. They indicate one's biological sex.
Why is it that the same people who champion the use and understanding of the concept of "gender", are often the same ones who constantly conflate "gender" and "sex"? They are not synonyms.
143
Once again it seems like the reporting here is sloppy, and inconsistent societal understanding of terms. As I understand it, sex is your physiology, gender is your self perception, and orientation is your attraction. It is not gender that is "assigned" at birth. It is sex that is observed. Gender comes later and should be self-determined. For those rare individuals who perceive themselves as other than their sex (or even rarer people who are intersex), you can choose.
But you can't choose to have two bodies and qualify for "they." And I do not believe it's necessary to freight every introduction with a declaration of psychosexual identity. Can't we just choose a new neutral pronoun. Dan Savage had a competition to invent a meaning for Santorum years ago. Let's come up with "ha/har" or "xe/xer" (pronounced ksee, not shee) and adopt it when gender isn't relevant, which might be usually. We then have to clean up "Mr. President" and"Madam Speaker."
21
@Pacu, if a drivers license indicates biological sex then what are hermaphrodites supposed to do?
@Leonard
I don't have a problem with indicating some intersex condition. The only reason, it seems to me, to have these designations at all is for identification, especially in cases of accident or medical emergency.
My gripe is with those who refer to the designations on birth certificates or driver's licenses as "gender" designations. They are not declarations or assignments of psychological identity states, they are factual physiological identifiers.
13
This is so important and it infiltrates all of our lives.
Are you Male or are you Female? Who do you work for? How old are you?
I try to make all of my interactions (cold word) with others as little rigid demographic as possible. Usually when I have exchanged a few sentences none of those "facts" make any difference.
4
They and them are so confusing as they/them are plural and the person is singular. Is there a better way?
13
I teach undergraduate composition— believe me when I tell you there’s no pragmatic difference for native speakers between the “he or she” and “they.”
2
In terms of pathology, xx or xy is relevant.
13
As would be any of the other what, 3 or 4 karyotypes that human beings can have? Does an employer need to know if a male is XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) for example?
@LWib See Eb's comment, which makes eminent sense.
2
Pretty sure that "they" is a plural pronoun. A person is an individual, one. It really isn't that complicated.
14
@David It isn't always.
"They left their bag on the table."
"Are they coming back for it?"
"Someone should let them know, they left their bag."
Is "they" singular here? Yes.
Some people use they/them/theirs as their pronouns. Honor it.
19
@Liz Many other comments here echo what we're saying :)
@Liz. How about they honor my right to not be terminally confused.
13
What bothers me is the grammar. Calling a single person they muddles what plural and singular are in English. Just saying...
12
I think the main question you need answered is, "Can this person do the job I need done?"
66
@Alternate Identity most of the people can get the job done.
3
I now have a transgender granddaughter. Since she began her transition she has become a more outgoing, relaxed, self-confident, lovely person. (She always was a lovely person, but now she's so much more confident in herself.)
I wasn't sure how she identified herself so I just asked. She told me, "she" and that was that. Why not just ask how a person wishes to be referred to and leave it at that. When we ask someone we just met their name we don't need to know their whole past history.
106
@Bonnie Weinstein What would you have thought if she said "we"?
15
@Bonnie Weinstein
The problem is, it doesn’t stop with them. The rest of us are now asked at our workplaces, conferences, book clubs, etc, to “state our pronouns.” So we’re all being forced to jump through ridiculous hoops just to appease <1% of the population.
16
Anyone interested in genealogy needs to know. Research would be vastly complicated by an X on the census.
38
@Sandra
Why? For genealogy you need to know that Chris is the child of Marion and Gabriel, the spouse of Rowan, and the parent of Pat. You don't need to know who stuck what in whom.
And is the convenience of genealogists more important than the truth of what a person is?
13
@Sandra
Sorry. That "needs to know" is not as important as people being able to be who they are. Now, and at any time.
I remember meeting my first gay couple in the early 60s in the back woods of Vermont. Their relationship was as a couple, not as a "man" and "wife".
Perhaps what you really want to have is "Who supplied the X-gamete, and who the Y?"
6
@Sandra
This is an issue only if the person has biological children. That person can then be labeled as “father” or “mother”, which in the context is indicative of sex, not gender.
3