When I was growing, both of my parents would go once a month, individually, to either a men’s group or a woman’s group. I never knew what exactly went on during these groups, but I know they were taking with others about how to process the challenges of parenthood, work-life balance, and all the other things my wife and I now face, in a somewhat formal but supportive and intimate setting. I remember getting the feeling when they left that they were going to talk about heavy and difficult adult stuff. There was something elevated about this. It made me respect my parents. As a grown man and father now, I respect so much that my dad did this. I wish all of us new parents still went to men’s and women’s groups. I don’t want to be a voyeur. Emotional well-being requires emotional participation.
91
I'm surprised by some of the vitriol this article has generated. We have such an idealized vision of mothers and motherhood that anyone giving honest appraisal to the harder parts is violating a taboo.
Unfortunately, the angelic, glowing, halo of the self-sacrificing mother is just as repressive as the Taliban's floaty blue "veil." It is the rigid requirement by society that a woman up-hold a moral standard of endless pure love and sacrifice of herself. Previously, that was the only option a woman got.
Now we go out into the world with ideas and hopes to create and build and enjoy our life's industry. Then with motherhood this huge veil of unrealistic expectations descends with full weight. Is it any wonder that many women feel lost, confused, and conflicted?! Our society really only creates space for children in the presence of an unpaid full-time mother. So you can take up the "holy veil of motherhood" and sacrifice your self...or you can struggle fruitlessly to uphold impossible standards, while struggling to hold onto your dreams and goals, while mired in a culture that isolates you and offers no help and hints that if you were "really" a good mom you'd put your kids first and sacrifice your own needs. Fathers don't give up their names, or careers, or ambition, or retirement investment..."just" the right to have feelings.
We need to carve a hole in our culture for women, men, and children. Unfettered capitalism has chained the rights of all but the robber barons.
22
my only response is to quote Ann Landers when she said 80% of mothers said they regretted having children. '80% should not have children'.
14
Some of us are out os step with the comments highlighted with this story.
Disconnected people making judgements about other people’s lives. Are we so needy that we can’t make decisions enjoy our babies and lives on our own, we need to be part of the internet or catty world while losing our own thoughts to be part of a pact.
Here’s a novel idea why don’t these lovers of the internet switch stations and get there children vaccinated against measles. There is no carrying about what other people think as there unvaccinated children contaminate other people
We should all be involved in the world and stop worrying so much about nothing.
4
Children are and have always been, where the pregnancy was intentional, a investment in the future. If you are old and brought up your children with love and taught them what they need to know about life, you will understand the value of a grown son of 50 who calls and says "if you or mom need me or need something just call me. And we have two. How's that for an investment for the future? And they are nice guys and funny to boot.
15
I appreciate the all too important dispelling of myths here, motherhood myths that cause people to question themselves too much and value themselves too little at times. That women get to speak their truths around this subject is crucial.
What sticks out though is the exclusion of childless women, especially the involuntarily childless, from the conversation (Wanna talk profound identity shifts??!!). Our hard won wisdom born from loss, grief, and in many cases trauma, as well as our perspectives in part molded by societal disenfranchisement and social invisibility are an important aspect of conversations surrounding parenthood.
14
Interesting that, when Michelle Goldberg wrote about wiccans and witches in a previous article, she heavily emphasized how they are Millennials. And yet, when she writes about new mothers, she glosses over the fact that they are Millennials too.
5
One thing that would go a long way toward helping women come to terms with motherhood is for other women to stop the attacks. The perpetrators of all the "mommy-shaming" and hating are overwhelming women. Why? Why do we delight in tearing each other down? What's wrong with women that they act this way?
18
Although I had my children on a different continent from my mother and extended family, having 6 weeks paid maternity leave before the birth an 10 weeks after (to which one could also add 5 the five weeks annual vacation) made all the difference. Time to prepare before and time to at least partly recover, organize and “bond” afterwards made for a much less stressful return to work, including being able to access affordable (income indexed) high quality, state-validated childcare.
With so many other countries showing the way, why does America continue to make being a working mother so much more difficult than it should be?
181
Unfortunately our society presents women with an idealised version of motherhood with all the soft lighting, classical music and impossible cuteness of a Huggies advertisement. These days with people having smaller families and without having lots of younger brothers and sisters, women may have gone through life without much exposure to what babies are really like. Also women are sold a lie: that having babies won’t really change your life. You can still have that high flying career and fit into those skinny jeans as if nothing major has happened. It is hard to explain what motherhood is like to your childless friends. I often say that becoming a mother is like crossing a bridge. Those on one side of the river cannot understand what life is like on the other until they cross that bridge. It will be great for women to get a more realistic view of motherhood so they can be less hard on themselves and for the world to realise that motherhood is actually real “work” at a time where pregnancy, hormones, a bad delivery/c-section can leave you feeling at your weakest and most vulnerable.
153
@Kay I too am all for motherhood being conveyed with more realism. I strongly suspect the sugar coated scenarios painted by society and the media are not serving the greater collective. And the same goes for the life altering grief and often times trauma that accompanies involuntary childlessness (my demographic makes up 20% of our worldwide population over the age of 45). The myths that surround both are the products of pronatalism. It has been downright impossible to explain what being involuntarily childless is like to the people who get to be parents in my life, the few who have been willing to listen anyway. People need to be aware that there are other "bridges" to cross in an adult developmental trajectory besides parenthood. Those bridges crossed not by choice bear important wisdom, perspective and insight, and are also worthy of being seen, heard and valued.
26
Welcome to motherhood in the United States. (And who knows, maybe it is like this everywhere.) I remember sweating over everything when my kids were babies and toddlers. But then I became a teacher and you know what, you realize really quickly, we are all just doing the best we can and being really firm with kids--whether your own or someone else's, and being kind, and admitting that we make mistakes all the time and that we're all just trying hard to be the best parents, teachers, guides, friends, workers, daughters and sisters we can be incredibly liberating. I remember being really, really sick but I couldn't take another day off because I had to "save" those sick days for when my kids were sick and explaining that to my students and how they all silently nodded and then treated me so sweetly all day long, knowing I was so vulnerable. Kids are compassionate and resilient. If we love the heck out of them, and set some boundaries and express our feelings to them, talk, really talk to them about our ideas and hopes and worries and expectations, they do well. In the classroom and at home. But first we gotta stop beating ourselves up. Women are so good at that. And it needs to stop. Let's be sisters again and support moms. It's the hardest job ever and there's no textbook. (It's also the best job.) Thanks for this article--it's needed.
179
One problem here is that our society tends to make everything, including parenthood, a competitive sport. It isn't.
213
@Michael Livingston Are you a mom?
2
What strikes me most about all this is how alone new mothers seem to be. Every mother should have a doula or sisters, mothers, partners that are all in on the huge project. Our country talks a good story about the sacredness of motherhood but does little to nothing to back that up with social support. There's nothing wrong with new moms. It's society placing too much on their shoulder that should get the blame.
242
@JS
So true. New mothers, exhausted and in body shock, need a vertiable village of support. How different that first year would be if we all had that.
40
@JS
True!
I am 57. I have a younger friend who has two tiny kids (1 &3)... I decided, "Hey, why wait for grandkids?" -- and volunteered to help her out once a week. Ive been doing that for about a year and the kids have grown to love me and I love them, and I know it is a huge help just to have another set of hands with two young kids. I was there yesterday and rocked a one year old to sleep, and made him laugh with goofy noises and faces. It is so fun!
People who are past rearing our own kids, think about how we can bring some extra nurture to another family. It takes a village-- well, we are the village!
55
No person is an island, and that is especially true of mothers.
I can give you the personal example of me own partner. We've had a few children now, and with each there was a series of different problems (doubts) with the mother.
We live in a Socialist country, where every possible support by the state and community is offered. At the first realization of pregnancy, mum had the opportunity to work ''flexi-time'', (essentially different shifts that suited her health, well being & so on) As it got later in the pregnancy, she was offered a much lighter workload (office duty).
Pre-natal care was all paid for (Single Payer), with support sessions (psychological and well as classes for preparation). The birth was a very supportive experience at the hospital, and her stay was a couple of days. (not pushed out too soon)
There was emotional support afterwards, (from me, large extended family, and a tight knit small community). There was 8 months paid family leave for her, and 3 months paid for me. A nurse made a couple of home check ups afterwards.
As they have grown up, subsidized day care was made available and used. They all went through pre-k, and excelled in school. For the most part, it has been a joyous experience, with the usual ups and downs of any parental dynamic.
After having said ALL of that, there has still been so many societal pressures, that have translated into depression. Even with a supposed utopia there are challenges.
We can always offer & do more.
7
An undisciplined child is like a ship without a rudder. Discipline establishes boundaries. Boundaries give us confidence that we can find our way. Discipline does not have to be brutal or abusive but it can't be inconsistent. Most of all, don't make a rule you are not willing to enforce.
5
Yes, people are complainers. Women complain about how hard being a mother is. Who ever said it was easy? Or anything about life was easy? Is working 50 hours a week, then having to take care of a house you bought and the grounds around it all weekend easy? Women never complained much until they started reading books and articles by feminists, these women feminists are perpetual gripers and are never satisfied. Forget them. Just realize that life is not easy. Blame God if you like, for all the good that will do. Mature women do not complain. Only feminists complain. Men do complain, but only in the bar with other men; then they vote for Trump who complains for them. Women have not fascist politician to complain for them.
5
If they were people like me, condemned to never have children, would they still feel the need to have public "therapy" sessions?
2
As a single working father of four, I take offense at the Matriarchy’s (and this article’s) use of the words “parenthood” and “motherhood” as interchangeable.
Because parenting by women (motherhood) and men (fatherhood) are both “parenting” and both are distinct and equally valid, “parenting” is not the same is “mothering”.
I look forward to the momsplanations about how parenting by women is somehow more valid than parenting by men.
Because raising children is not women’s work however, those momsplanations will be in error.
8
Does remind me of Crocodile Dundee's comment about therapy in general:
"Hasn't he got any mates?"
I think Facebook robbed us of friends when it gave us "friends."
8
There are podcasts and there are close friends. Podcasts — all 90 million of them — are second best. Sharing your insecurities with close friends is an enriching bonding experience. I know no better way to learn about yourself than to share your ups and downs with somebody you care deeply about.
4
Both the suffragette and the feminist movements were white European AmericanJudeo-Christian female supremacist separate and unequal.
There is nothing in that white female experience that is remotely comparable to being a black African American or brown Native American mother in Donald Trump's America.
8
Interesting article; however, I’m still waiting for a feminist podcast for women (and men) who choose childlessness. There are far too many people in this world. And our precious planet as we all know is suffering terribly for our selfish impulse to procreate.
“Once it was necessary that the people should multiply and be fruitful if the [human] race was to survive. But now to preserve the race [and all other species] it is necessary that people hold back the power of propagation.” — Helen Keller
8
@Zareen...people who choose to have children do so because they are afraid to die. I am not afraid to die and so have chosen to not have children.
3
We have terms and labels for everything that a woman experiences. This "matrescence" is just another addition to the collection. It's all well and good. Women are controlled by their hormones (sometimes), women are finding it hard to navigate the social and cultural expectations of their womanhood (sometimes). And it is great that we are understanding them better.
It's all well and good. I'm just wondering why so little has been written about the corresponding anxieties around social and cultural expectations for men.
3
Calling any conversation that is not completely confidential and private “therapy” is like calling pornography “lovemaking.” It may be good and helpful but it isn’t psychotherapy. If it is indeed the broadcast of what was intended to be and should be private, then it may even be obscene, the essence of which is making what ought to be private, public.
Not quibbling with the value of what is learned, but with confusing public sharing with the private process of psychotherapy and the profound misunderstanding of psychotherapy, privacy, and the human soul that such confusion reveals.
6
Mchelle Goldbrg is a terrific columnist, and this is an ear-opening
piece. And it is an ear-opening piece even more for being written, not podcast. This fine mind and fine commentator is at her singular best as a writer.
2
Not much is said of the outcomes of these sessions. Is there a before and after for the participants where the after is clearly better than the before?
1
Why would anybody have a child that is doomed to live in a hellish dystopia created by climate-change, over-consumption and, yes, overpopulation? We are in stunning denial of the future we're thoughtlessly creating despite the fact that all the warning lights are flashing red and the claxons are wailing.
One billion peeps in 1800, 7.7 billion today, 11 billion? 13 billion? by 2100 - chart that growth trajectory.
8
@Miss Anne Thrope
Love?
2
@Miss Anne Thrope...people who choose to have children do so because they are afraid to die. I am not afraid to die and so have chosen not to have children.
Happily, "Feminist" is just a word, and therefore can even be used by men, as words don't belong exclusively to anyone. "Feminist." There. I, a man, used it again.
Anyway, what is "Feminist" about these podcasts? Aren't men, caring how women feel, encouraged to listen?
If i made a podcast sharing the hopes and fears of fatherhood, i'd never want it to be described as "Masculinist" as women might feel disinclined to listen.
7
@Graham You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
7
Reading this illuminating article (thanks Michelle) I began pondering the evil visited upon our collective psyche by the deeply damaged people who troll and have likely destroyed the Internet, who find comfort in the cold metal of an AR-15 lulling them to sleep at night, whose reaction to the raw vulnerabilities revealed in this piece is sheer lust to inflict what harm they can upon these women in a time of treacherous tumult.
It is insane and sadistic, this quest to beat upon the beaten, to infect open wounds, to let those enduring travails know that people exist who seek to make their troubles unbearable.
These most vile of humans have always existed. In the era of the Internet they have finally found a path to the hearts and minds of those upon whom they yearn to prey. These are dark times.
10
@Victor
Nothing new here:
would suggest that people have always used the communication methods available at the time to spread their views and discontent: schools, pulpit, newspaper, town crier, pamphlets, crusades, and resorted to censorship of the media carrying views inimical to their position as now we are seeing in colleges and universities deplatforming speakers and even removing academics from leadership positions for articulating incorrect views or in the recent case of a Harvard Law professor taking on the wrong client.
2
"caring for an infant by herself was more difficult than she’d anticipated."
Yeah. What are the odds? We men are good for something.
8
If a woman wants to compete there are many ways to do that - at work, in sports, in games....but to do it through your husband and/or children is evil.
1
My daughter was born with a fatal heart defect and lived only 9 days. Matrescence would have been a blessing.
6
Suggest everyone read jane Lazarre's Mother Knot. Published in 1976, it confronts so many of the issues that are still being debated-- what it means to be a mother, and a feminist while maintaining a sense of self during the profoundly exhausting job of caring for an infant. It is still so relevant today.
4
All efforts to parent another human being will make mistakes---when a personal image of good parenting runs up against the real behaviors of offspring who quite naturally will evidence behaviors that fog up that image. What I learned in the child rearing is instead of trying to clear up the fog--embrace it---provide all the love and support you can, but understand, you are working within a fog that at times seems confusing, disappointing, and yes, at times exhilarating.
8
It's been many years since my children were small but I remember the judgment of other mothers as well as the isolation - not easy. I've come to the conclusion that no stage in life is problem-free even though having my children was indeed the best part of my life. I think back also of women from my mother's generation and in my neighborhood where there were often 8, 5 or 10 children. How do/did we all do it??
16
When we are rendered powerless in any significant area of our lives, we are most susceptible to feeling depressed, angry and hopeless. When I became a mother for the first time I was unprepared for my feelings of anger and fear and shame. This was supposed to be one of the highlights of my life. The birth of a son. . . .
6
Parenthood used to be just another stage in life. Some anxiety but no horror tales. It was understood parenting was a lifelong undertaking with sacrifices and boredom but heck, that's "life". Many demands are made of parents as in music lessons, sports involvement, PTA, 4-H, driving duties, interacting with other parents in other activities too numerous to mention. Why is this such a surprise to new parents? Didn't they have a childhood? Isn't it common sense to "be there" for all of it as an adult? There is too much "poor me" in life situations. We need to raise more adult beings in spite of today's shortcomings in societies--take on the challenge if you're already a parent. If staying child free, good for you knowing you have other plans for your life. Especially today!
12
@Ruthy Davis
Agreed. The horrors of parenting today, as I am learning through this piece, are not about parenting itself but about the social mores of today that have turned the experience into Olympic trials. Shut off the social media folks.
15
Women aren’t just feeling this way today - I was beset with horrible doubts and a sense of failure when I had my last child, before the era of social media. I felt terribly alone and isolated even in my family because I did not want to bother any of my friends or family with my feelings and, in all honesty, was too busy to really think about them except during those long nighttime feedings. It took a toll on my health and relationships. I would have found a great benefit just in knowing the experiences of other women.
7
@Anne
Perhaps had some members of your family or some of your friends known, you would have received the solace you needed. It is, in the end, our responsibility to let people know of our tumult.
3
Being a new mother is absolutely terrifying. I have 2 boys (3 and 7) and reading about the sleep deprivation and feelings of inadequacy, fear, and hopelessness just brings it all back.
The issue is the isolation of modern motherhood. If we gave birth and raised children with familial support, there would be a lot less of this. You're supposed to learn to be a mother from older mothers around you who are helping care for the baby while you recover. You watch your mother, grandmother, older sisters and in-laws. No one is a 'natural' on their own.
How to reconcile this with the counter, modern proclivity of wanting a career, one that takes you away from family, and having a family whose structure does not include older generations....not sure how to reconcile these two facts that run counter to each other.
32
Joni says "caring for an infant by herself was more difficult than she’d anticipated." Somebody needs to get the word out that caring for little kids is really demanding. It eats up your life, which will never be the same again. I thought it was very sad that she felt so isolated from other mothers and didn't even have a partner to share some of the pressure. I hope she is able to get a support network together. It would be hard to see all the great things about being a parent if you didn't have relief from the stress of it.
21
Earthling. Remember the 1970’s movement named ZPG, which stood for Zero Population Growth. What a good idea it was. A photo of a family with 4 children, where each of those 4 children had 4 children filled a page in Life Magazine. What a shock it was to me. Therefore, I did my part, and did not reproduce. I have delightfully traveled light in the world. I have done my best to be a spiritual being, learning to be human, and living by the Golden Rule. One of the nicest compliments I ever received was from a group of women who were chatting about their offspring. When asked if I had children, I naturally responded NO. Their comment ... you didn’t need to be a mother, you are a mother of the world. My heart goes out to the women coerced into childbirth and child rearing through family or peer pressure, despite their desires not to do so. My grandmother told me not to have babies. My own mother confessed to me that as a young married woman she had NO IDEA about ‘where babies come from’ ... no sex education before she married. Following this, she blamed my birth (as her first born of 3 children) on her divorce. This is an amazing essay as we, at this very moment in America, are making it next to impossible for women to be able to choose what to do with their bodies ... to be mothers or not.
39
The article doesn't describe the relationship between Joni and her child, which in the ordinary course should be the primary subject of analysis.
Joni's pregnancy seems to have been triggered more by a breakup, ["get even?"] than a desire to bear, love, and nurture a child, which is likely the root of her issues which are doubtless affecting the child in a less than positive manner.
An article elucidating the child's perspective would be appropriate.
4
Fascinating idea and way to help women cope with 'matrescence'. Very interesting that new mothers project that others are judging them! As a childless by choice woman I have the same experience...assuming others are judging me as harshly as I judge myself for that choice. I would think mothers would be able to basque in all the adoration society bestows upon mothers and motherhood. Sad that many can't feel that!
We women just can't win.
11
'There’s a woman who hated pregnancy but whose older wife wants a second child.'
Pity the second child – and the first.
From time immemorial, craziness like this is what we parents are willing to inflict on our kids, in order to satisfy our toxic self-pride, our vanity, our hubris.
32
Matrescence?? What a seriously horrible word. The experience it wants to describe is so varied and has so many different phases that one word could never cover it all, anyway. But if it did, please let it be better than "matrescence," which sounds even worse than it looks.
However - it is good that people are starting to pay attention to the experiences of new mothers. I can remember the long lonely days of caring for a new baby by myself. If you don't have a good support network (I didn't) then it is really hard. When I look back I'm not sure how I even survived it. We all survived it, but you are kidding yourself if you think there aren't going to be any scars.
The people reporting the highest levels of happiness are single childless women, I recently read somewhere. Makes total sense to me. Oh well, too late for that!
19
"Yet it was also revelatory to hear how this woman’s anxieties had warped her assumptions about how the world sees her."
Though I am a father, I'm quite sure I can't begin to appreciate the profundity of motherhood. Yet, in a way, I also envy it.
Anyway, the part about how a person's anxieties warp their assumptions about how the world sees them is, I think, common to many of us, mothers or not. If only I could get over myself to the point where I could shed those warped assumptions!
12
Well America and the UK increasingly have become complete commercial societies where money, the more you have of course, is supposed to lead to ultimate bliss. Yet half of marriages fail and too many children growing up in single parent households.
Unless the person raising the child has a good income and is able to allocate much time to raising a child or has a network of family to support the child with the parent, no wonder many parents feel overwhelmed, common sense really.
I spend about 40 % of my time these days in Spain where strong family bonds remain (i.e. real interaction not only via social media). You can often see grandparents picking up kids at primary school and going to a park with them for the kids to to play with their friends. The older people socialize together. Later after work hours, one or both of the kids' parents join them. Thereafter a bit of fresh food shopping to prepare dinner. People look happy, content and everyone socializes together. Complete opposite to the UK where many old people lead sad, lonely lives and people live increasingly neurotic selfish lines via social media.
29
As an adoptive mom of a few kids, I can say that “matrescence” occurs even when pregnancy and birth hormones play no role. I can certainly own that chaotic hormones most likely make a tough situation worse, and in no way wish to dismiss them, but I hope we can acknowledge that the mere upheaval of new parenthood is extraordinarily challenging for adoptive parents and dads as well. In fact, I think we’re so uncomfortable owning some of these surprising feelings of disruption and overwhelm that we turn to the hormone explanation because then we can’t be blamed for how unhappy we are! But let’s own it, people: sudden parenthood is astonishingly hard.
56
@Alison. “adoptive parents and dads as well”. A revealing slip of the tongue.
1
I agree. I gave birth to my children and never thought it was just hormones that made me feel the way I did. You are responsible for another life for the rest of yours. How is this fact alone not anxiety producing?
11
@Alison
I totally agree. I gave birth to 3 kids and never felt a big physical or hormonal toll from the experience. Babies that kept me up all night and demanded constant attention, on the other hand, were exhausting and life-changing.
7
Great Read! Makes me wonder how women used to cope with these dilemmas 300 million years ago!
4
@Aaron: 300 million years ago, women didn't live in little isolated nuclear families. They lived in women-centered, women-organized groups in which the children were raised collectively. I'm sure our ancestors were as hierarchical and judgemental as we are now, but collective child-rearing takes so much pressure off the individual mother's workload.
27
@MP
and how would you know this? I didn't say I knew.. I just said, "makes me wonder"..
2
@Aaron
We’d have to ask *them*, wouldn’t we?
Decades ago, before the internet, I once had a unique opportunity to eavesdrop on mothers' secret thoughts. In my early twenties, I did a woman-only silent meditation retreat for a week. Twice during the week, we met in small groups to talk about how we were doing. I was by far the youngest woman there, childfree and single. I talked about how much I was enjoying being present and peaceful in nature. Every single one of the other women was a mother and wife. Every single one of them was panicking and in crisis because they had no idea who they were when they were alone with their own thoughts. It was like they didn't exist independently. They could only define themselves in relation to a child or spouse. It was a cautionary tale. Today I am 53, childfree by choice and blissfully single. I still enjoy being present and peaceful.
68
@Amy Luna. Well, I'm a single father of a wonderful 24 yo independent woman, and I would say that, although I understand and respect your point of view, the experience of having a child allows one to experience a sense of wholistic love that cannot be found outside of this situation. The women who you describe were victims of societal forces and when I am on silent retreats I have no problems being present and peaceful. And, yes, I know that you are describing mothers not fathers....
4
I totally get women who choose not to have children. I did choose to have them, and I remember well, the terror I felt with the birth of my firstborn son—in being fully responsible for another little human being. That was the point that of no return: my life would never be the same.
While I did lose out on career opportunities (I have 3, now adult children)— I think having kids helped me to learn how to negotiate under difficult situations, how to draw clearer boundaries, and how to be more empathic—-stuff I’ve found valuable to lean on in the workplace and tricky social situations.
And mostly, I have a newly found appreciation for the way my own parents raised me, even though like me, they were plenty flawed as parents.
I only wish they were still here (they passed away several years ago) I’d say to them: “How in the world did you do it? Thanks for loving me no matter what.”
46
@W
"I only wish they were still here (they passed away several years ago) I’d say to them: “How in the world did you do it? Thanks for loving me no matter what.”
Your comment caused me to choke up. I'd ask my parents the same thing, then I'd hug them in bear-hug ways I may never have hugged them when they were here.
Hope I will be remembered the same way when I am gone. In the worst of times, after divorce, struggling on my own, I was never a field deserter. And I never asked for pity.
I just did what was needed to get us through the burning house (metaphor) and to eventual safety. When compared to some other parents I probably fall short; when compared to their comfortable circumstances, I was a rock star.
11
@hotGumption
My children and I worked our way through a *burning house* too. I understand! Thank you for expressing this with such sensitivity and wisdom.
5
Your musings on how podcasts can be fundamentally different from the toxicity of social media, and even written punditry, is key. Hearing people actually taking the time to speak, listen, and communicate is the greatest refutation of much of what's wrong with society, and especially of everything Trump.
Your statement about your podcast "The Argument" is deeply revealing, especially that "you find that the assumption of a basically friendly audience allows me to be a little looser, and maybe more vulnerable, than in other mediums".
I read your columns and those of Ross and David, and find them, most specifically yours and Ross's, to be unproductive. It seems you proceed from a notion that you're dealing with an unfriendly, even hostile, audience and the results are often absolutist and unyielding. I understand intellectually how you're staking out extreme rhetorical positions, but I find myself not liking you all very much for it, very likely because Trump already destroys Truth via weaponized rhetoric.
In sharp contrast, when I listen to your podcast I think you're the most noble person doing political commentary. How is it possible? Because you're a great listener, your fundamental decency is plain when you speak, and because you're very persuasive as you make room for people to accept or not accept what you're saying.
Your podcast is a real way to move away from the toxicity and distortion of social media, and everything terrible Trump is. Please keep up the good work.
14
While I was swimming recently in a private pool where they give the occasional swimming lesson to kids - toddlers - accompanied by their mother who might also have an infant in tow in a perambulator, a little girl of maybe two years was afraid of the water. (What's new?)
The swimming instructor gave subtle and then more strident exhortations for the kid to put her toe in the water. No go. Now, the mother - who is paying good money for this desensitizing experience - becomes the rhythm section for the instructor with similar egging on.
But the kid is not having any of it. She screams bloody-murder for a half hour while I ply the waters. There is a kind of entitlement that mothers with children have. The child is the center of their world and indirectly should be the center of everybody's world no matter what the kid or the mother is doing.
I get Mom's attention: "Sometimes when a kid is that afraid, to keep pushing them for extended periods of time may be counterproductive. Maybe try a five minute timeout and then start again." (What impertinence I have.) In the time it took me to say that, the kid calmed down and then eventually got in the water - reluctantly.
But, after the lesson, the mother ran to the management and told them, that I had told her she didn't know what she was doing (mother wise). Mom-and-kid hegemony reigns supreme...
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Motherhood can be so isolating and terrifying. I immigrated alone, so all my family were thousands of miles away on a different continent. My girlfriends were either single or childless. I was so terrified of doing something wrong that I wouldn’t take a shower while my son napped - what if he started crying? Or worse? When I did pluck up the courage to do so, I would think I heard him cry and frequently turned off the shower so I could hear.
This all seems so silly now (he is currently 15) but it was nerve-wracking at the time. And I felt that I, who had previously been so successful at everything I had achieved, could not admit to anyone that I felt inadequate. I was a sleep-deprived, physically depleted bundle of anxiety and guilt (love, too - which made everything worth a thousand times over).
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My friends with kids always knew that I didn't want to have my own. As a result, they've been more open with me over the years about the challenges of parenthood than perhaps they are with friends considering having babies. They've opened up about the pressures on their marriages and partnerships related to having kids, and the struggles with being a parent.
I'm forever grateful to my parents for never pressuring me to have kids.
I think this podcast will be incredibly helpful to mothers, who in spite of the deep love many feel for their children, also struggle on so many levels.
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Only a minority of women seem to be natural mothers, women who are happy & non-neurotic, emotionally stable, able to raise happy healthy children, with a natural sense of how to nurture & care for the young. Perhaps one in five women fit this category.
Yet, because of the pronatalist bent of patriarchal culture and the beliefs that women's only value lies in being objects for male sexual titillation & gratification, and for reproduction, nearly 90% of women end up as mothers, much to the detriment of the planet. Yet it is clear that motherhood does not make women happy, many women see it as a burden, as something they do not do well. And men the world around often abandon offspring and are little or no help in raising children.
Then there are mothers who are drunkards, drug addicts, unintelligent, emotional messes, suffering from PTSD or bad genetics or childhood trauma or bipolar disorder, or with one or another physical or mental disease; mothers who are adolescents or children themselves. Many women live in poverty, financial poverty, emotional poverty, mental poverty. No wonder so many children end up unhealthy in mind & body, neglected, neurotic, unhappy; & grow up to be social problems.
Would that every child was planned & wanted, loved & cherished, raised without any deprivation. The world has more than enough people. In fact, the planet and the whole natural world would be better off with fewer humans. Widespread reproduction would best be discouraged.
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@Earthling. Remember the 1970’s movement named ZPG, which stood for Zero Population Growth. What a good idea it was. A photo of a family with 4 children, where each of those 4 children had 4 children filled a page in Life Magazine. What a shock it was to me. Therefore, I did my part, and did not reproduce. I have delightfully traveled light in the world. I have done my best to be a spiritual being, learning to be human, and living by the Golden Rule. One of the nicest compliments I ever received was from a group of women who were chatting about their offspring. When asked if I had children, I naturally responded NO. Their comment ... you didn’t need to be a mother, you are a mother of the world. My heart goes out to the women coerced into childbirth and child rearing through family or peer pressure, despite their desires not to do so. My grandmother told me not to have babies. My own mother confessed to me that as a young married woman she had NO IDEA about ‘where babies come from’ ... no sex education before she married. Following this, she blamed my birth (as her first born of 3 children) on her divorce. This is an amazing essay as we, at this very moment in America, are making it next to impossible for women to be able to choose what to do with their bodies ... to be mothers or not.
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@Earthling Your comment is excellent. At 63, I still often regret having never become a mother, knowing I only have this one life, and will have missed the experience for all eternity, but I knew I only wanted to bring a child into the world with a partner I deeply loved, and I just was never fortunate enough for that to happen in the window it needed to.
But I also feel in large part my regret stems from a cultural construct and peer pressure that insists this is THE role for women, even now in the 21st century, that I have no value otherwise, that I am somehow lacking as a woman without this badge of honor. You see it and hear it everywhere, even from supposedly well-meaning friends and relatives.
For this reason I suppose I am oddly grateful for this podcast, as it seems we are so brainwashed as a culture by Fantasy Motherhood that these stories are truly a revelation to me.
And yes, our poor planet is crying out for human beings to practice discretion, planning, and common sense as much as possible before they reproduce.
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@Earthling
100% agree. The intergenerational transmission of trauma (or functionality) is a real thing. How do you "know" how to mother if you never had a model for it? It is much easier to be intuitive with kids if your own mom knew what she was doing.
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Children are bringing guns to school. The NRA is only a fraction of the equation. Let's do more than talk about the voyeuristic consultations of motherhood.
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When my son was 4 months old I joined a group of moms with similar aged babies that was run by a social worker. The purpose was to be able to talk about what was happening to us. It was one of the best things I ever did. I found I wasn't the only one who sometimes hated the fact that I could hardly remember my name due to the all consuming need to be completely present at all times for my son. What a relief to know that what I was feeling was what the other moms were as well.
That was 34 years ago and I'm still friends with the mothers I met in that group.
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Reading this, I'm happier than ever that I never became a mother. Why anyone would want this, I can't imagine. Too many people on the planet, anyway.
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Thank you for bringing this out for a general audience. Since everyone had a mother it is a very important discussion. I also appreciate the sensitivity you bring to this subject while exposing it.
The only thing I have to add is that this is not the first time this format has appeared. When I was a student in Germany in the early 80's, there was a show on Radio Free Europe called "On the Psychiatrist's Couch" It featured in depth interviews, mostly with celebrities, about their motivations and the role their childhood experiences played in the development of their careers. I never missed an episode as it was do fascinating.
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Therapy has shifted to a more female focus in recent years. “Psychology Today” tells me that one reason is that men have begun abandoning the field due to its low pay.
Regrettably, in couples’ counseling with my wife, this female focus cost attention to my specific needs. The female therapist offered much more sympathy to my wife, because my wife cried while I didn’t. The therapist seemed ill equipped to interpret the way I presented emotion. Since I have a difficult time crying, my affect was judged as problematic. The therapist didn’t ask questions about my affect, didn’t understand that male anger is a camouflage for vulnerable feelings women tend to display more clearly.
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@Austin Hmmmm, Sounds like either you didn't find a skilled therapist, or there's a whole lot more to your story to explain why you felt like an outsider at therapy. The gender of a therapist does not mean they are only successful at counseling others of that gender.
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@Austin I hope you tried another therapist -- it doesn't sound as though that therapist could see or treat the full picture... if staying together was the desired outcome for both of you.
It does sound as though you knew that you were angry... did you ever try reining in your anger, I wonder (rhetorically). Anger is a much more threatening response than crying. I personally find male anger terrifying, even when I know it is camouflage for hurt feelings -- which is not always the case. So often, in my experience, men were angry at me because I wouldn't do or be what they wanted to their benefit and my detriment. I've learned that what men do with their hurt feelings and consequent anger is infinitely more frightening than anything I've ever seen a woman do when she... cries.
The minute a man crosses the line from frustration to anger, I'm gone. For good. Too much learning the hard way.
I guess it's clear that I'm more on the side of women who cry than men who rage. I wish you well anyway.
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@Austin I'm sorry that you didn't get more understanding in the comments to your post. I hear you.
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There is a lot of focus on the difficulty of raising young children, but many of my friends find parenting young adults and adults even more challenging. As a mother, you can no longer simply bundle your child up and take them where you want. The emotional work can be enormous.
Many young adults have chronic illness and mental health problems that do not go away. Many young adults have drug and alcohol problems. I know a number of women over fifty who have told me they wish they never had children. Part of the issue is the lack of social services have neighbor with an adult daughter with schizophrenia. She can’t leave to take a walk or for vacation.
The pain of motherhood seems never ending.
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Must have been too naive 47 years ago to care what anyone thought about how I was raising my children.
It was fun, it was agonizing, it was tiring, it was fantastic, it was annoying, it was challenging, but everyone (including me) got out alive and with all their faculties intact and functioning.
I'm so sorry to learn that parenting today is such a nightmare.
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I have to object about the "mutual projection" concept of The Mommy Wars, which arose over this question: "Does a lot of consistent maternal presence *matter* to the healthy emotional development of babies and very small children, 0-3?"
The question of lots of maternal presence and nurture has VERY OBVIOUS answers in extreme situations: rhesus monkeys, Romanian orphans. But try watching "A Three Year Old Goes To The Hospital." It will break your heart. Little kids are not left brain people and we do damage to them when we do not get this. they are more like little animals and respond heavily to movement and touch. 10 hour waits are not comprehensible to babies.
Quality parenting arises from quantity time, from being body to body a lot, from a baby feeling held and comforted by a beloved person most of their day... Anyone who does not know this has zero feel for the mind of a baby.
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@Megan as someone who completed a Ph.D. in psychology specializing in emotional development from birth to three it always amazes me that more Americans are not familiar with the research you cite. There are even pediatricians who continue to warn parents that it is spoiling babies to cuddle them when they cry.
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Even in my day, I felt uncomfortable and anxious with my first born not only due to my clumsiness and cluelessness but also when around friends who had children before me. And there were times I'm sure I was judged and criticized, adding to my insecurities and angst. I once read that probably one of the most profound responsibilities in life is that of parenting, and that there is really no preparation. Yes, we can develop the skills necessary re feeding, bathing, etc. But it is that turmoil within us during our "matrescence" - hormones rebalancing themselves, downright fear that we will do something wrong - that render us so darn vulnerable. I would have loved a podcast like "Motherhood Sessions." Heck, I reeded it. Dr. Spock just did not cut it. He could not share that we are indeed "normal" mothers and women. That it is okay to have those feelings which I would bet almost every new mom has but is too embarrassed to admit.
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For anyone who believes there is no difference between men and women, and that it is all a social construct, let me say that there is not a single heterosexual man I know who would participate in an endeavor like this, and none who would listen. it doesn't matter if the subject is fatherhood, death, addiction, parenting, sexual expression, or shrubbery. Not because men don't go to therapy, but because because therapy is private, not performative or the subject of voyeurism.
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@Observer of the Zeitgeist, I agree and I would also suggest that not too many women may be willing to go public like this. But insofar as these sessions may be helpful to others to other troubled people, these brave women who are willing to share their feelings and experiences are to be applauded.
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@Observer of the Zeitgeist
I agree that it’s more about “performing” for an audience of strangers than anything else. I admire the courage of the participants but still shudder at the notion of the public ness of it all. I hope Ms Goldberg is correct and the professional beasts of social media don’t find a a way to crash the party.
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@Observer of the Zeitgeist I am a woman and cannot imagine wanting to share such intimate details with an audience. The thought of even listening to it makes me feel queasy.
And even if unintended, there would be a performative aspect. I'm not sure how one could be both vulnerable--as one is in therapy--and be conscious of a big audience.
While I think it's true that women are more apt to confide in close friends, literally broadcasting to strangers is not comparable.
Of course, to each his/her own.
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"But the rise of social media means that anyone who writes online about any aspect of maternal ambivalence risks a barrage of trolling or sneering condescension."
This line from Michelle's column made me immediately think of another great column today by David Brooks which describes the cruelty of online trolling.
No wonder the creator of these live-taped podcasts of mothers' therapy sessions chose a new medium to explore turbulent, agonizing feelings.
I related to the woman who didn't want children because I didn't either. Since I never married, I never had to go through the "social expectations" this poor mother felt obligated to give in to.
When I first started reading, I was a bit horrified by this podcast because of its voyeur-like setup, as Michelle put it.
But because the column was well developed, I see the podcasts' value: to serve as "safe space" for mothers ashamed of their feelings who can have them validated by women whose experience may help them feel less alone.
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I wouldn't want to, and won't, to listen to such a podcast, since I would feel I'm invading someone's private session (aware that "they" know it's not private at all!
My question is, why does someone feels compelled to be public about pain?
I'm not suggesting pain should be hidden. On the contary, I fully understand sharing painful experiences, thoughts, fears, etc, with friends and family.
I'm simply asking why the need to broadcast to total strangers?
What a weird world we live in nowadays ....
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@c
You asked why would anyone broadcast their personal pain to strangers. Usually it's because they hope it will help someone else feel less alone and because they wish they'd heard a broadcast like that and known more about the reality of the experience before they did it.
I personally am a private person but I admire people who are willing to share their pain. It helps remind others that it's human to have these feelings and that someone is NOT weird for having these feelings.
If you don't know anyone among family or friends who shares your situation, you turn to strangers in that situation who will understand.
I personally have often felt closer to strangers than to people in my family. If you are able to share pain with your family, you're lucky. Many people cannot.
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@c
Perhaps it's because so many relationships are now carried out online, instead of on a couch in someone's livingroom or on a front porch, where understanding and consolation have a human face, a human voice and a human touch. That's just a guess: Talking in person with family and friends way back when was great support for the journey.
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@sfdphd
Thank you for a new angle I had not considered.
Yes, I am lucky in so many ways. I sometimes need reminders like yours. Thanks.
7
So much of motherhood these days seems to be about comparing ourselves to others and coming up short. Did I buy the right stroller; did I choose the sufficiently nurturing baby carrier; what about the crib; the mattress; the blanket - ? You get the point. There are millions of ways to raise children because there are millions of ways of being a parent. Of course, we all want the best for our children, and what we all do is the best we can with what we have. It is enough. Try being more intuitive and pay less attention to what other people say you should do.
I have found that comparing myself to others is the kiss of death. Not to put too fine a point on it.
26
The best part of this phenomenon is that it validates what these women, and many other women (and even men) like them, are feeling. They are not alone. They have issues we should all be concerned about.
Having a child is a life-changing decision. As a man, I am a little oblivious to what female hormones might do, but it's hard for me to imagine anyone going through that experience and not feeling some doubt, or even regret, about the decision and opportunities that may be disappearing because of it.
We are more acutely aware of what we miss than what we have.
We all operate somewhere between our biological drives and social pressures. We balance those scales differently at different times. But life does not often give us a mulligan. Even if it did, we would tend to make the same decisions.
A better course is something I've heard described as self compassion. Learn to love, and when necessary to forgive, the person that you have been. Learn to make the best of that person's decisions.
31
The vulnerability of being a parent, and especially a mother, is a public and 24-7 experience. Long after you children are adults, your heart is still open to that rawness, never to be the same as before having a child.
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There is not a single thought, idea, feeling, or reflection on motherhood that hasn’t been shared, overshared, and proclaimed by now. It’s been a good twenty years of letting it all hang out (for better and worse). What kind of secrets can possibly be left?
14
@Di All kids of secrects are left to people who haven't, or couldn't, listen.
All kinds of secrets for people who didn't, or couldn't listen.
2
The Parenting Wars: The only way to win is not to play. It's not that hard to find like-minded adults to associate with who are not so neurotic about the way they raise their kids. And most importantly stay off social media.
69
I had my own children 49 and 47 years ago; they had their own between 14-19 years ago. Motherhood/parenthood for me and for my children bears ZERO resemblance to what it appears to be today. There was not all this insecurity/ambivalence/competition.
Where did this come from in such a short period of time? We had children because we very much wanted them. Were they sometimes the cause of fatigue? Of course! Babies and toddlers are needly little creatures, and we do get tired, or when we're sick, find caring for them difficult. But we also seemed to know that "this, too, shall pass" and we loved the good parts so much that the others were like a gnat - of not long term consequence.
I hear their pain, but I cannot in any way identify with it.
30
@India agree entirely. sure, our parents blew it in some ways and not in others. we did the same. somehow our kids came out pretty darned good. maybe it's because they learned by example to be human rather than paper thin theories of parenting.
mine are 51, 47 and 23
6
@India
You weren’t told you were selfishly abandoning them to be raised by paid strangers if you got s sitter an evening a week. You weren’t told you were evil if you let them watch an hour of TV so you could do the laundry without playing educational sock sorting games. Attachment vs free range, debate at 11! Basically whatever you do, it’s wrong.
Even those of us who don’t buy into all this get darn sick of hearing the endless criticism day after day.
16
Parenthood is hard period. To worry about what others are thinking of you and to try to compete with the "perfect mommies is a waste of time. My sister has three perfect children. They got all A's through school, were in so many clubs I stopped paying attention and always pointed out how average my kids were. She pushed them hard and made unreasonable demands. Her oldest moved 3000 miles to get away from her and hasn't been home since she was 18 (she's 35 now), her second child is still trying to make her happy,her third moved out of the country and is a successful person financially but she's drinking herself to death. My children got A, Bs and Cs, have had their ups and downs and are raising their own children to be self sufficient and able to survive one their own. They have the confidence to do anything they can dream of. We taught them that the only way to know if you can is to do. The only way to get what you want is to earn it yourself. Simple life lessons that they will pass on to their children. We weren't perfect parents so we never expected perfect children. The only question a parent needs to ask themselves at the end of the day is did I do my with the kids today? Don't compare yourself to others and don't strive for perfection because you'll never reach it. Love them and let them know you do. It's what being a parent is about.
80
Well played.....well parented, itsjustme !
6
This has always been the case:
"As Sarah Pulliam Bailey wrote in The Washington Post last year, the 'biggest stars of the mommy internet now are no longer confessional bloggers. They’re curators of life. They’re influencers. They’re pitchwomen.'”
There have always been pushy, competitive mothers, as there have been pushy, competitive people; but such mothers, women, use their children in their pushy competitions--whose kids are smarter, accomplished, better turned out, more indulged more photogenic... this is nothing new.
14
Ambivalence is a condition of any highly thoughtful person.
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