Texas indeed has no state income tax, but they do make up for it with fairly high property taxes and government fees. That said for many more typical income earners moving from the CA to a low tax state the biggest savings will be on the cost of housing.
7
"Over the years, many who made a fortune off Silicon Valley skedaddled to lower-tax locations where they could better protect their wealth."
From whom, exactly, are these plutocrats "protecting" their wealth?
Oh, right, from us. From their neighbors. From society. Because they consider their life of purposeless leisure more important than teachers, roads, hospitals, parks - all of the things that make civilization.
Shame on these people. And shame on the Times for presenting their selfishness as laudable.
48
I've been to Florida, many times. I have many friends that live in Florida. My spouse was born there. I've seen the people of Florida. The politics of Florida. You could give me $15,000,000 and a house on the water in Florida and I'd give it back to you.
If millennials want to move there, no need to worry. They won't stag long. The place is cheap for a reason.
28
Austin in okay except it is surrounded by 800 gazilion square miles of TEXAS. If they are that worried about state income taxes, they aren't very wealthy. I wish them luck, they'll need it.
27
Everyone pause for a second: Texas leads the world on many negative indicators: heath prosperity education literacy and so on. Last I knew there was a monument to insurrection and treason in Austin and a presidential candidate was heckled for being gay. If some of these people are willing to put with living in a place like this to save some taxes, I thin we should count our stars they moved away.
16
States change with an influx of new people. This is a good thing for the whole country. I moved to KY and support progressive initiatives to better the State. Former CA native.
11
Being retired and operating a 'hobby farm' in California I can understand the motivation for moving. Every year there are more restrictions,requirements and more fees..if one follows all the rules. Quality of of life issues getting worse,costof living going up every year. I wish I could escape this mess.
10
As the fifth largest economy in the world, California will miss these folks like we miss a 1.0 earthquake. If you can't feel it does it even exist?
11
Is this really about taxes or about the general cost of living and culture of San Francisco vs Austin and other parts of Texas and the US?
Even if Texas had a comparable income tax, a $1.5 million dollar house would get you something in a rather well off area. In San Francisco that is a what..a 2 bedroom house in a packed neighborhood? That’s not even touching the cost of basic goods.
Also, the politicians of Texas do not entirely represent the people here. Views are a bit more conservative and people quietly practice their faith or not at all but extremism on either end of the spectrum are hardly on display.
Whether or not these people “owe” something to California is entirely something else. I don’t see what the problem is escaping an expensive city to preserve wealth, especially when they still have many more years left to live.
9
@Robert It's not just the cost of living. A lot of us are from Texas. A lot of us are just going back home, and now we have a reporter who's demonizing us for it.
5
Face it, we're all jealous reading this as we drone away in our cubes. Wealth gives you options which are not available to the hoi polloi.
7
Well, they've wrecked my town. If they're wrecking yours now, I'm truly sorry. But that's the price we pay for embracing slash-and-burn capitalism. What a mistake.
31
While young retirees remain rare, this same type of tax migration has been going on for 3 generations from the Northeast to Florida. Even for many metro New York workers near retirement, it is cheaper to domicile in Florida and commute for a few years than it is to pay the usurious income and property taxes in Westchester, Nassau, Monmouth, Bergen or Fairfield Counties.
Northeastern government salaries and benefits, such as those earned by some police officers in Stamford, CT (gross > $400,000 with overtime), have driven mobile upper middle class workers to tax havens like Texas. The city of Stamford pays over 1,000 workers greater than $100,000 per year + benefits, so it is quite easy to see why the tax burden may be much lighter elsewhere. A move to Florida, or Texas, can easily save a family the amount of one year's college tuition EVERY YEAR!
14
Elderly retired people move to low-tax states to preserve their remaining wealth all the time. How many New York State resident Times readers know someone who moved to Florida after retiring? My parents did. Some of my in-laws did.
Why is it so reprehensible when a millennial does it? If a state doesn't want to lose its high net worth residents, it should lower its tax burden.
19
This article is ridiculous.
"Still, none had chosen to move to a high-tax jurisdiction like New York or Massachusetts"
As if that's proof of anything? One of the most common places that people go when they leave California is Texas. I know that, because I've read several articles about it IN THIS NEWSPAPER. Like San Francisco, Austin is a liberal city with warm weather. Why on earth would someone who was attracted to that go to a cold, busy city on the East Coast? Especially someone in their early '30s that is cashing out of the rat race (who wouldn't with a million(s) at that age?).
Maybe focus on the class of people in this country that don't spend the bulk of their time playing video games and are avoiding taxes.
10
If a business moves to s cheaper tax State it is good business decision. If an individual makes good career decision and moves to a lower tax State it is selfish. I find the comments judgemental and disturbing. When they move they put money into another States economy. As a former CA resident, the taxes and cost of living are insane. In my mind they made a good financial decisions.
18
There are wealthy people who do give back to society - through charitable non profits, social awareness programs, and by other means. Then, there are wealthy people who decide that their success is by their own volition and that they have the "right" to do whatever they want with their money. The former gets it right, the latter gets it wrong. We are a society that benefits from being a "society". This is not the land of the oligarchs; although lately, I'm having more and more trouble convincing myself of this.
6
I used to work for a guy who constantly changed his citizenship to avoid paying taxes. He renounced his US citizenship first for Ireland, where he bought a castle and signed some kind of deal to pay no taxes for a period of years. When things didn’t work out in Ireland, he headed to Bermuda and bought a dairy farm, promising to create a certain number of jobs in exchange for citizenship and no taxes. That didn’t work out, either. Then the IRS here went after him. Not sure where he is today. Maybe he’s in Russia, or on Mars, or some other universe where they will give him the best tax deal.
When I read this article I thought how much these SF techies are takers just like my old boss. Like him, they enjoyed and reaped the business, intellectual, social and recreational benefits of their locale but when it was time to repay the largess, they skipped town. But I’m glad Mr. McMullen still has enough fondness for old SanFran to buy a $2 million home there and breeze into town for the opening of the Avengers movie, notwithstanding that he is tired of the SF tech rat race that he helped create.
15
As someone who moved from Austin to SF in 2003, I really get it. Life in the Bay Area is stressful, expensive and competitive. I think that taxes are part of why people leave, but there's a lot more to it. We have amazing weather, and a lot to offer like wine country and skiing, but if those aren't your thing then you should move. Why pay a lot of state income tax to live here if you don't enjoy the best things it has to offer? Don't shame these people for working really hard, being successful and then leaving to cash out. Who wouldn't want that?
The way of life here isn't healthy for some people who are workaholics and good for them that they can move away and enjoy life! It's not like they're cheating on their taxes like Trump, they're choosing to move somewhere with a better lifestyle that's so much more affordable and relaxing. It's just state income taxes they avoid by moving to another state. Texas has a different system of getting your tax dollars, they have higher property taxes.
Uber and Lyft on the other hand, should pay their drivers a lot more and pay their fair share of taxes.
18
So many Californians pointing out that living in Texas is unthinkable because it is so hot. It is that hot-I was born here and grew up prior to the general use of air conditioning.
But the N Y Times has run more than one article about San Francisco streets being used as toilets for the homeless. And that people are shooting up on the streets, openly copulating as they have nowhere else to go and don't care. Wow, that is so much better than a predictable series of hot days. These people profiled are rich. They can afford a nice pool and quick trips to Mexico to swim in the Caribbean and enjoy the evening breeze. Visitors are stunned by the heat and humidity but residents acclimate. And Texas is pretty in its own way. But the traffic is horrible. Texas has had since 1960 to plan and build mass transit. There was all the room in the world to lay it out then. No public or private will to do so. Tragic and will be our undoing.
10
Be honest, it just isn't taxes as to why people leave CA. The state has been going down hill since the dems started running it. The same can be said for NY, CT & NJ. The dems just have a way to ruin a good thing for everybody.
15
@Donald Yes, how dare they want clean air and water. Horrible, horrible democrats.
9
Good riddance to them all. Every problem they had with California.....they took it with them. It's a win-win for California. They and their problem are gone.
"Probthem," let's call them that. Cali don't need 'em. Sure California's got issues, big issues but we sure won't find any solutions watching Avengers three times. It's going to take time, big ideas, money and people willing to do the work. To the dearly departed who just want to just sit around in their bathtubs all day...thank you, for leaving.
5
I think the story NYTimes really need to write is why would anyone in their right mind would live in the SF bay area if they have other options? We have the highest income taxes, gas taxes, government fees and sales tax, and in return we get some of the worst public schools in the nation, pathetic and crumbling infrastructure, horrendous traffic coupled with poor or nonexistent public transit, filthy streets, drug addicts and homeless people everywhere and pathetic government services! To top it all San Francisco and the areas around the coast are perpetually cold and wet, the beaches are gloomy with no restroom or facilities whatsoever and sunny CA seems like a cruel myth everyday! And of course a tiny, run down starter house costs well north of a million $. I see many who live here for professional reasons but rarely see anyone who is happy about this.
22
Not paying taxes, playing video games, living in a place dubbed "Camp Austin," traveling to watch "Avengers: Endgame" all while DJT threatens the safety of this country's middle class and 242 years of democratic values.
Why doesn't this generation's privileged set start stepping up to the plate and run for political office? Jeez. Isn't time to start giving back and showing some thanks for the system that made you so well off?
Puh-leeze! BE the change we all NEED to see in world!
25
In other words, one part carpetbagger, one part parasite. None of them people to admire who want to build things or communities or a state. Still small boys who like to break toys if it gets them attention.
21
What a shallow superficial outlook on life. I think we can trace this to overindulging our kids, stroking their self esteem at all turns and giving out trophies to both sides of the little league game. We get a generation that think making money and retiring is the goal. What a waste.
16
I’ve lived in SF for over 20 years, working in tech the whole time. I’m happy to pay my taxes and even happier to read that people like the ones listed here are leaving. Please let the Uber door hit you on the way out.
22
Please no one is happy paying taxes.
3
@D B
Ha, that’s funny, but it is true that I am happy to pay taxes. I am not happy about government inefficiencies here and there, but I feel lucky to live in a first world country that was built with taxes.
17
Right, so we'll eat the rich smothered in barbecue sauce and slow-roasted over a hardwood fire, rather than as meat in Mission district street tacos. Either way, we're coming for you.
3
@richard
then your dogs will eat you.
2
"Wah! I want to live in a big city but these homeless people scare me! I want to be rich but I don't want to pay taxes."
Good riddance! Let them go back and disrupt where they came from; where their parents taught them to whine and complain, to classify minorities and homeless people as "sketchy," and where they went everywhere in a car. They can accomplish their non-work interests better from an armchair or a bad taco restaurant in a Flyover than they can in San Francisco.
They are, and will be, easily replaced.
22
@John I love how you bemoan the state of housing in the SF Bay Area, when one of the major reasons as to why it's so expensive is because of wealthy NIMBYs like you in Marin, Palo Alto, & SF. You rich NIMBYs consistently block the development of high-density housing, which keeps housing inventory low and prices high. Then you have the audacity to put all the blame on us. Some of us are leaving to go back home because we can't afford to live here because of you because it would mean continuing a life of endless overtime and we're just burnt out. It's not surprising that you'd make fun of this when you lack enough self-awareness to realize that you NIMBYs are one of the main causes of the housing problem for everyone else in the SF Bay Area.
4
Most of the people working in the SF Bay Area aren't actually from the SF Bay Area, including me. We move there for the opportunity. We get here by studying a hard subject that most people in the world don't care to learn. We pay our dues with 996, working 9am-9pm 6 days a week. With our jobs, it's also like we never left school. We constantly have to study the latest technologies or we'll be out of date within 6 months. Like Brian McCullen's spouse, we are not California natives. Eventually, we'll get tired of this life and want to go home, and we do. We earned it. I don't appreciate being demonized as a carpet bagger parasite for this and I feel it's unfair to do the same to SF Bay Area natives when they're not the ones who are leaving.
15
@Brian Lee, "we earned it." By displacing people and clogging the streets of San Francisco with cars driven by clueless drivers from towns hundreds of miles away who've never even been to The City? By forever changing the definition of "middle class?" For that horrible horrible nerd-phallus-worship monstrosity that over-emphasizes the architectural-challenges that we call quaint?
And spare us, in this climate of college admissions bribery, of how you, particularly, got "here by studying a hard subject."
14
@John You seem to be a bit jealous
4
@John - How ridiculous. Want to blame him for ring around the collar too?
How about a city government that has been a complete impediment to the construction of affordable housing?
Please stay in your hot tub in Marin...
9
And how is any of this the fault of these guys? People have been doing this in the US forever because the GOP and Dems let them. Look to your leaders if you want to assign blame.
3
Go for it. After 35 years in the MW we bought a home back in CA. Yes we had to save for it. But so glad to be away from the conservative politics.
17
Depressing.
3
Anecdotal much?
4
What vacuous lives and I didn't even have to read more than a couple of paragraphs...
10
So, you are coming to Texas to do what you did in San Francisco?
3
Let's hope not. I clearly remember the Californification of Colorado in the early-'90s. That was before buying real estate was even on my mind, as a newly-graduated young journalist...
2
Maybe taxes in California are too high.
6
EVERYthing in California seems exorbitant: housing, gasoline, taxes, commutes.
6
@TDC, maybe not high enough.
2
Some of these long time Bay Area residents saying good riddance to these wealthy millennials who made money in tech probably also are the same generation benefitting from prop 13 so they’ve been skating on a tax loophole and driving up real estate prices so even newly minted millionaires feel the pinch. You know what they say about people who live in glass houses...
6
It’s a free country, people can live where they want. What’s the point - create an intricate web of rules governing who can move where based on income? Silly. Also, why is Texas a “low-stress place”? Best I can tell people here face the same day-to-day stresses as the rest of the country. I guess only NY (from where this newspaper is published) and SF residents face stress.
9
Here’s a idea: export these tech millionaires to Mexico. Mexico can set up a gated community for them. Amazon can deliver them food and things via drones.
17
To those of who live in California this is an old story and is certainly not just limited to tech ...
I'm a High School teacher and a pretty fair percentage of my colleagues complain non-stop about how much they hate California because of the "taxes" and speak wistfully of Oregon or Nevada or Texas ...
So I ask them if they hate California so much, then why don't they just relocate ? ... The universal answer is pretty much "when I retire I will but right now I can't afford to" ... because those lower taxes in Texas result in an average teacher salary and benefits package that is only 77% of what it is in Cali ...
And these Millennial techies are singing that same old song ... you make your money in high tax Blue states which provide lots of opportunity and prosperity, and when you're no longer productive you retire to low tax Red states ... but still fly back out to Blue states on the weekends lol ...
15
The Mediterranean climate in San Francisco is drop dead gorgeous. I don't know of any other place in the country that has anything that comes remotely close. The places these people are comparing it to have climates that are extremely different.
If you state San Francisco has fog all the time then you never lived here. The micro climates in Northern California are absolutely great.
To each his own.
16
Texas has high real estate taxes!
3
They are like locusts ! Where ever they go (low tax states) they drive the cost of living up to the disadvantage of those who are natives of the state . Buy your own island Y'all and don't mess up Texas or Florida or any other low tax state .
6
"Last month, Mr. McMullen was back in San Francisco to watch “Avengers: Endgame.”
They don't have movie theaters in Austin TX? Wow he IS roughing it.
12
No wonder I'm getting better restaurant reservations. See ya!
9
Smart moves on their part
1
Low taxes - US News ranked Texas 37th in education, but these folks won’t use public schools.
6
Rich young white guys havign made millions by exploiting workers now indulge themselves.
The men, as they like to be called, are busy playing video games. Instead of using their millions to improve the world, the boys are playing games and wasting their lives on trivial pursuits.
Pathetic. Some people do not know how to live. Or how to use their money to create a better world.
14
Earthling, let's concentrate hard and hope that wisdom finds an orbit in their sabbaticals.
1
@Earthling, precisely! They create apps and services that supplant mommy while they play.
4
A Tesla is no longer a vanity purchase.
A Model 3 is $39,500 with a total cost of ownership over six years that is less than several versions of the Toyota Camry and Nissan Maxima.
After six years? Forget about it. Much less expensive than any Camry, Accord, Maxima.
See Electrek.co and Cleantechnica.com websites for cost breakdowns.
Let’s blow up this myth once and for all.
17
So these are the folks who are moving to my hometown and making it un-affordable, and turning it into another San Francisco.
Growing up in Austin in the 90s/00s, I couldn't wait until I had a steady job and a house to call my own in the city that I loved so I could experience the unique things Austin offers. Now that I have the job (non-tech) I can't afford a house anywhere in Austin, as speculators and rich people like those profiled who don't pay nearly enough in taxes retire at the same age I am! Ridiculous...
18
Move to low tax states = poor public education ? health care, I live in Greenwich Ct. I like the living in a bubble, but not wealthy.like San Fan you move out you cannot move back unless you are in he top 10% income wise
1
Watching “Play Misty For Me” California used to be such a nice place. I guess these guys are looking to ruin Austin now.
1
This article should be titled “rich people take money and move somewhere better”. Take a look at any decent city nationwide and the local papers will all have articles about massive gentrification. Boulder/Denver, Austin, Portland, Nashville, Boise, East LA, etc. no one is trying to displace anyone else. No one is trying to ruin the culture of a city where they want to start a life and raise a family. Last time I checked there wasn’t a rule that said once you move to the Bay Area you’re not allowed to leave. It’s funny how many people log into the comments section to vilify the 25 years old guy who built the comment section. All he wanted to do was pay off his $100k of student loans.
9
Should we assume these millionaires have high IQs and excellent taste and judgement ? I think not! Why? If they think Austin is the panacea of their dreams... they’re badly mistaken. Most natives and long-time residents bailed 20 years ago. Dry refrigerator boxes rent for 3,000 mo ., and there’s a wait list.
2
How is a Tesla a "vanity purchase?"
4
Please, NYT, do a piece a year and 5 years from now on "Where are these grifters now, and how are they enjoying the 98% humidity, mosquitos, flooding, high property taxes, country music and guns in Texas?" Because these takers sound like the people longtime San Franciscans complain about as destroying the character of the city and that Texans complain about for driving up home prices there.
10
Before we vilify these people... Didn't they simply make a choice for the benefit of themselves and their family? Isn't that what we all do when we pick one peanut butter over the other at the grocery store?
Should we shame everyone who takes the standard deduction on their Federal income taxes? How dare they make a choice to lower their tax bill?!?
So everybody in Texas should move to California to raise their personal tax burden or they have proven themselves to be unworthy?
If those who are casting stones here want to really do some good for their fellow man they can move to Belgium, I understand that their taxes are pretty high.
8
Because they don’t want to pay taxes for the infrastructure that made them rich....I guess Austin is a retirement community for tech guys. Yawn.
3
How long will it take Texas Republicans to wise up and institute a graduated income tax? Surely they can't abide the thought of those rich Democrat immigrants getting off scot-free.
1
They buy homes and pay property taxes. They go to stores and buy things paying sales taxes. Nobody gets a free ride. Couple those revenue streams with oil and gas revenues and a legislature that only meets 120 days every two years and you get consistent surpluses. Personal income taxes are specifically barred in the Texas State Constitution.
3
But, but, but, the NYT, Democrats and liberals assured us that no one moves to escape high taxes.
If they are moving out of California, which has the best climate in the nation, a beautiful shoreline, and lots of opportunities, that must mean that high taxes are a big motivator to move out.
8
If you want to sit around and watch sports on tv, play video games, read young adult novels, go to superhero movies and eat tacos you can live just about anywhere. Do these tech bros care about what’s special about California? I think not. That’s why it’s so easy for them to leave.
6
Young, rich and bored with life by the sounds of it. What’s the old expression about giving kids money? “ Give them enough so that they can do anything, but not so much that they can do nothing”. These young people may have “earned” their money, if we stretch the meaning of earned, but they seem unconnected to places, people or purpose.
So, have fun bro’ but find something worthwhile to do, something connected to a community would be nice. Ennui shrinks your brain, widens your waistline and shortens your life.
4
The lack of imagination of these folks is notable - probably because most never lived outside of CA before getting a job and striking it rich. And I say this as a CA native who spent most of my adult life outside of CA (and outside the U.S.) before coming back to San Francisco for work. You have several hundred thousand to several million dollars, no kids, and the best you can do is TEXAS? If I were to strike it rich and have no more professional obligations, I'd be out of the U.S. in a New York minute. Hallo Berlin!
10
absolutely! Berlin, Copenhagen or... well too many nice places in Europe to name them all.
2
How can you write an article like this and fail to mention that Washington is a state that produces a lot of these tech multi-millionaires and also has no state income tax!?
5
As Buckaroo Bonzai (or was it Thomas à Kempis?) said: "Wherever you go, there you are."
1
That was Dr. Buckeroo Banzai. The actual quote is “Don’t be mean, we don’t have to be mean, cuz, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.”
Good words of advice from a brain surgeon, rock musician and inter dimensional crime fighter, especially for commenters to the NYT.
Tech bros (because they are almost exclusively bros) worked hard, yes, but also had the great good fortune to come from families who could provide for their educations, who were born at the right time and benefited from the tax supports provided to the tech industry, now up and leave for states that do not support public education, infrastructure or the impoverished. But hey, the taxes are low.
5
Where did these folks grow up? We moved to SF in 1984 and I can’t tell you how many friends and coworkers have come and gone. The city was “fun when they were single”, but they miss their families, their hometown, the change of seasons, and snow at Christmas. When they’re ready to settle down, they want a flat lot with a lawn for the kids. We have cold summers, rainy winters, and LA has more flat home lots than we do. Once these post-grad workers live their California dream, many return to their home state or their spouse’s home state. They never intended on staying, just like the original gold rush miners.
6
@Anne Mahoney Just like NYC. People come when young then decamp for the suburbs or their home states when families are started.
3
This is why I had to leave Austin after fifteen years. I got priced out by people like this.
4
Taxes are really high in California, especially for the top 10% who, most of the time, were not born rich but worked hard for that money. And yet, our roads are crumbling, we have one of the lowest performing public school systems, high crime, high rates of drug use and homelessness, very few parks in our major metropolitan areas where most of the population resides, a dubious water supply and public buildings that have to be rebuilt using public/private partnerships. If you pay rent and the landlord never invests that money into the property, you get angry. If you pay taxes and the ruling class never invests it back into infrastructure & quality of life, you leave. It's simple.
13
@boris vian Curiously, all the problems you mention are typically remedied by a well funded government.
1
@caljn Our California government is running a $20 billion surplus and we are still not fixing these problems...
1
As Warren Buffet likes to say 'my secretary pays a higher rate in taxes than I do'. If the "semi-retired millennial millionaires" and other corporate elites had to pay ordinary income taxes on their stock award/options at least there may be a dent in the budget deficit and a small narrowing of the growing income inequality gap. Another option is to restrict the tax write off for financing these businesses so the taxpayers don't end up sharing in the socialized losses.
4
@tippicanoe. Warren Buffet does not live in San Francisco. In California you pay ordinary income tax on capital gains. And as said above, California is running a $20 billion budget surplus, due to the high personal income tax rates. And what is the write off for financing these businesses?
I was in Austin last month, I haven't been there in 30 years. The tech people ruined that town. "Keep Austin Wierd", too late, keep Austin corporate is more like it. These people you profiled are right at home.
4
Ok, they want to escape high taxes and boring conversations. But when they get to Texas or Florida, Nevada or Washington, then what? It's a completely different way of life in all those places.
As a Nevada resident for a while now, I don't think there's any comparison to the life you can have in California and what's possible here, unless you have the money to escape whenever you want to.
I'd like a follow-up on this story.
2
Saddest thing about this story is that these wealthy young'uns feel their newly-minted reserves are best spent meditating and de-stressing rather than doing something to improve situations for those who don't have the same access or resources. They fulfill all the stereotypes of self-absorption that are attributed to tech bros. I fear they will become the ruthlessly entitled corporate and government leaders of the future. I'm thankful I know other young people who counter that image and who will hopefully carry an opposing torch of leadership.
9
According to an article in today's SF paper, San Francisco has the highest density of billionaires, per capita, of any city on the planet. A few rich folks are staying here.
1
These people are changing the look and feel of what used to be a “weird Austin.” And they don’t seem to care. What used to be a city where middle class families could live comfortably, now most of the old neighborhoods are gentrified and taxes keep going up to meet the demands of these rich millennials for a California style infrastructure with strip malls, more traffic lanes and tall condominiums that are ruining the once beautiful skyline. Most of them can’t shake their love for gas guzzling vehicles (one for each member of their family). And the city politicians are too happy to comply because in their vision of what is a livable city, they are destroying the natural environment that gave Austin its quality of life. What the article doesn’t mention is that these millennials left their places of origin for a number of reasons, low taxes being just one of them. They left because they helped make California a place to stay away from. Austin is getting to that point.
4
These two initial offerings should be avoided by the plague. Neither has a path to profitability short of a miracle. Both could face having to change contractors into employees. Both face increasing regulation. Maybe, hopefully, desperately sum up the risks. Good luck if you invest.
4
I made a work related move from NYC to San Francisco. During my years in SF I had a sense that things were going to change and housing and living expenses were very soon will not be affordable for many including myself. I was fortunate that with just a few years left before retirement I got wind of an opening for someone with my work experience. I applied and here I am in Florida. I pay no state income tax as I did in New York and California, but I must say I prefer the politics and cultural activities of New York and California than what is offered in Florida.
1
@Tonjo I just don't understand selecting a place to live based on a state income tax or not.
5
It does affect your criteria. Would someone move solely based on state income tax? Of course not. If offered an opportunity to move to low income tax state, as tens of thousands of middle and upper income household get offered every year, that improvement to net cash flow, often near 20 per cent, puts a big thumb on the scale.
1
@caljn My decision to move from San Francisco was not solely based on income taxes. The Presidio of SF where I worked had plans to close and I was not ready for retirement. Accordingly, I made a choice where I want to go rather than the Department of Army selecting a new assignment for me based on their choice.
1
Please be aware neither Uber nor Lyft are profitable companies. They cash subsidize rides to build their markets. Soon enough, investors will ask for less corporate investing or raising fares.
The public stock offering raises capital to continue funding the companies’ ongoing business model. Investors are willing to put money at risk in exchange for a piece of the profits assuming these companies ever show same.
Many jobs are valued at where supply/demand intersects indicate. Unfortunately there is an over abundance of car drivers, and the market dictates a relatively low compensation. Further many drivers value gigs that are when and where it is convenient to them. This too increases the supply of drivers, drivers not looking for a living wage.
Like many jobs a ”living wage” isn’t advertised nor should it be assumed. The companies are open to employees with known compensation policies. As with any commission business, there are those that can’t earn enough and drop out. Lastly there is ample evidence that raising driver pay would reduce the number of riders able to afford the service.
Give the market enough time to normalize, a balance between willing drivers and compensation will occur. If not, THAT is a story, title “Capitalism Failure”.
6
The people in the article already paid their California taxes on the equity grants as they have vested. And they are taxed as ordinary income. The tax they will avoid paying in California is the capital gains tax when they sell those shares, assuming the sales price exceeds the cost basis. So, they have already paid their "fair share" on their income. Austin may be nice now, but invariably, Austin will become just like San Francisco, and everyone will be lamenting about the same stuff they are currently complaining on San Francisco. Then they will look to move to another place, and the cycle repeats. Few of my friends did a pretty detail modeling comparing the cost of living on semi-retired basis between California and Texas, and the amount of savings in Texas was not enough to compensate for the loss of California weather.
4
I am wondering if Mr. McMullen expected the tone and scope of the reaction. If he did, is he "laughing to the bank" and does not care; is he generally surprised; has he made a bet with his friends on which way this will be perceived; is his wife having a good day or does she want to be on the down low for a few months? (All stated with curiosity and not with malice.) . I wonder if he is willing to answer either privately or here...
2
Yes, because everyone in Austin TX knows that scathing comments in the NYT can just ruin your whole day. Moving to Austin is like joining the Foreign Legion. Most of the other people around you have done worse. The bumper stickers say “Keep Austin weird!” They mean it.
I'm rather surprised by how many commenters believe that these individuals "owe" California any more in taxes than they have already paid.
Retirees flock to Florida -- do we tax their social security to pay for infrastructure in the states they've left behind? No.
Do we make newly married couples who migrate to the suburbs or elsewhere to have children continue paying taxes that only apply in the cities they leave (e.g. NYC's income tax)? No.
So why should these tech employees be forced to pay more? If anything, they've been a massive boon to CA -- they're often educated in other states with less CA subsidy, they paying taxes in CA while working, and they leaving CA before using expensive public services (local public schools, Medicare, etc). Compare that to CA retirees who aren't paying much in income taxes, dodge most property taxes via prop 13, and are goods at public expense (Medicare, SS, etc).
Besides, I imagine it's not just the income tax they're trying to avoid. It's also the unaffordable housing.
12
I am all for entrepreneurship and making money. But Uber and Lyft are hemorrhaging cash and their employees are not paid a living wage.
I know it is not their fault, but this is a major defect of capitalism. If these tech companies were breaking even and needed an offering to get to the next level, I get that.
But Uber and Lyft are not close to that. And the millionaires they generate will make the Bay Area even more inaccessible.
It is our system that has gotten out of control.
4
Trust me, it is not just these guys who are moving to Austin from California. To those on their way - we are full, the traffic is awful, and you now have to wait for hours to get decent barbecue. We ran out of salsa and our queso stocks are nearly depleted. Don't even think about going to Barton Springs, there are no parking spaces and a 3 hour wait on the weekends. The last cheap one bedroom was rented out 3 years ago.
7
It’s sad when people have more money than they will ever need and yet their decision-making process is driven by the illogical desire to accumulate more, I know that no one ever had too much money, but there is such a thing as enough and if a rich person can’t ever feel he or she has enough, happiness is not a prospect. So what have you gained?
5
@J R There should be no billionaires. Too much responsibility for one person.
2
Hey, come on, he was working in an Apple store and he got hired by Uber eight years ago. Good for him, seems like he made a smart move.
11
140,000%?? that number is nowhere near correct. if that were true, stock would be 3.5 cents a share
2
Three things:
- I’m 34. I moved to San Francisco ten years ago. I’m not a millionaire. I am lucky to share a rent-controlled one-bedroom apartment south of Market with my husband. I work as a plant engineer at a hospital here. I find myself intrigued by what people in my same age-cohort are up to, so I click on an article like this and am reminded that we are worth reporting on and speaking to if and when we are making a ton of money. At this time, presumably, the public has an interest and desire in knowing how that money will be handled. It’s always disappointing to discover that these people are not actually very different from me, but our system has seen fit to reward them with millions of dollars. I had rather hoped they had super powers of some kind.
- It sounds like they’re hanging with the same crowd in a different town. Maybe they wouldn’t have run into so many tech bros trying to launch a start-up if they’d joined a pool league or tipped a drag queen instead of hiding behind their desk, working themselves to exhaustion, and following the crowd. This community has way more to offer than these individuals ever had (gave themselves?) time to experience. It did before the money drowned our neighborhood, it’s here now and it will remain here once it’s washed back out again.
7
No discuss of using their wealth for philanthropy or environmental concerns. Nope. Just more money making or game olaying. That’s the generation that’s going to save the planet? I’m losing sleep.
13
The people quoted in the article sounded like characters from HBO's "Silcon Valley," which is apparently spot on in its depiction of the combination of great wealth and delayed adulthood.
7
The amount of gentrification Austin has seen over the last 20+ years I've lived here has been incredible and widely visible. I've noticed a huge increase in "tech bro" archetypes everywhere in the city, swarming the latest trendy, overpriced craft brewery and talking about how "cheap" it is here. Meanwhile, rent, taxes, and cost of living have seemingly doubled in the past 3-5 years for many residents here, most of whom are not so fortunate to be sitting in their luxurious $700K home playing video games, stargazing at what to do with their leisurely lives. Austin is no longer the "weird" city it once was, because the weirdos can't afford to live here anymore. Yay!
Austin is a wonderful, friendly city, but I hope the privileged people moving here are using some (most) of those funds to help community organizations and city-wide initiatives that actively support the lives of the less fortunate -- those whom they're inevitably displacing. Also, can y'all use some of that money to fund a proper huge art museum (or 2) here? Thanks in advance.
17
I feel the need to make it very clear that Mr. McMullen does not speak for all tech-employed millennials. We're just as irked by him as the rest of you.
4
What is the purpose of not taxing generational wealth transfers? They give no benefit to society. Hopefully all these billionaires will gather in one country and drive up the price of everything there.
6
These people did not inherit their wealth.
I loved the statement about talking about Uber for five minutes and then talking about life for three hours..Nothing bores me more than people who prattle on about their jobs, whatever they may be. Work is supposed to be something that makes your life happen and if work is good, life should also be good. So lets talk about that...much more interesting....
3
Just to be clear, Uber and Lyft have never been profitable. They undercut their competition (taxis, public transit) by undercharging customers and underpaying their non-employees and have stayed in business because they are propped up by investors looking for the next big thing to multiply their wealth and starry-eyed local governments eager to give corporate handouts and overlook inconvenient things like laws. Now the "real" employees (the ones with numbers indicating their order and correlating value) are cashing out on stock that is worth thousands of times more than when it was given to them because people hope/wish/believe these companies will eventually make money? When will that be? Once they have monopolized the market and can safely jack up their prices to get out of the red? Once they have created fleets of robot cars and can finally extend drivers' non-employment into unemployment?
These people built failing companies that bleed money and extracted an insane amount of wealth from investors and surrounding communities before taking it and running. The taxes, the cultures (city, startup, or otherwise), the burnout, the impact, this is all completely secondary and most likely total nonsense. They have their eyes on the prize and are in new markets that aren't already saturated with their bloat so they can do it all over again.
To me, all this begs the question: why do we allow this to happen?
But sure, people like stories about the wealthy and taxes.
14
@John I find it interesting that a media organization such as the New York Times can spend so much energy on trying to tear down capitalism and conservatives that so many associate with capitalism yet spend so much effort and reporting on stories like this, mega mansions and huge real estate deals, and high society (especially movie stars, writers, producers, singers, and the inherited wealthy, etc.). At the end of the day the Times knows to stay in business that they need capitalism and the people who got wealthy through capitalistic endeavors.
6
Choosing a Tesla is a "vanity purchase"??
No, it is the responsible choice!!!
If you are in the market for cars that cost over $30K, as many people are, then choosing a climate destroying gas car (or more likely SUV) now after Paradise, Irma, Katrina, Sandy and all the increasing climate disasters is the "vanity" purchase. The vanity of deliberately destroying the climate, endangering lives and homes for some macho image of carelessness.
A Tesla emits no CO2 in clean power states like CA and TX, and even when charged in a coal-powered state like Wyoming is still much better for the climate than a gas car because electric is so much more efficient.
8
@Susan Kraemer
Welll... you are waaaaay off topic.. but this claim of yours needs to be challenged.
"A Tesla emits no CO2 in clean power states like CA and TX, and even when charged in a coal-powered state like Wyoming is still much better for the climate than a gas car because electric is so much more efficient."
Sorry to break it to you.. but Teslas have a carbon footprint IN Ca and Texas too....UNLESS you are charging your Tesla with solar power. Period.
There is no question that electric vehicles, and even hybrids have a smaller carbon footprint then the average gas fueled motor vehicle.... but to pretend it has no carbon footprint (which is what CO2 represents... the C stands for carbon) is just wrong.
As for the total carbon footprint of a Tesla... including manufacturing, and in particular the battery arrays... they actually have a larger carbon footprint to manufacture then a conventional vehicle at this point in time.
And watch... ten years for now.. there will be a war between the Feds and different states as to what to do with all the dead battery packs (they only have a 7 year useful life and their components are toxic and not environmentally friendly at all. THIS is the big ugly secret yet to be revealed about electric vehicles.
13
The battery packs get recycled. Most of the cells in a battery pack at end of life still work. The lithium and other metals in the dead ones are still worth recovery.
I am mainly struck with the total lack of interest in building community, or giving back something in return for the astonishing opportunity to make a gazillion bucks just by being the right kind of person at a specific moment of economic history. Nope, just "I got mine and I'm going to go somewhere cheaper and spend it all on myself." Inspiring, it isn't.
19
I don't see anything wrong with legal strategies that minimize tax liability. Although these young, rich people acquired options when they were living in California, they didn't realize that wealth until they left, so why does California have a claim to any part of that money? While they were actually working in California, they were dutifully paying taxes at California's punishing rates. Why would they have any obligation to continue paying those rates after they leave? Anyone who thinks these young people have a moral obligation to pay CA taxes on their options while they're living in Austin, Texas should ask themselves what they would do if they were in that position. Only the delusionally self-righteous would claim that they would gladly pay 13% of their income in perpetuity to a state so dysfunctionally run as California.
7
Shame never works. Not with wealth, not with weight, not with drugs.
We could commit, as a country, to be less materialistic, but that would just strengthen our foreign adversaries who are not making the same commitment.
The world is going to burn one way or another if 7+ billion people are doing what they want, when they want. At this point our only hope is that STEM fields will make some timely break through discoveries that bail the rest of us out. Concentrated wealth (wealthy inequality) is simply what allows for these massive projects to be financed.
7
Texas really ought to be taxing income at at least 3%. Especially in Austin, the influx of high income people is driving rapid gentrification & not providing any solutions to the problems that follow...
8
@Claudia Evidently TX is fooling a lot of people with the no state income tax. Check real estate, sales and other taxes. Not so great.
1
Money is fungible. Property and sales taxes plus the oil revenues do quite nicely. The rainy day fund is like Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam except is getting bigger.
Much of the money harvested by these tech millionaires, was earned on the backs of employees and customers, of companies such as Lyft, Uber, Facebook, and other tech businesses.
Once reaped, the bounties are upped and moved around the country or the world for that matter.
At the same time, credit card debt in the nation is hovering around $1 trillion. So money moves from those don’t have less to none, to those who hoard it and live off quick riches in low tax or no tax states, and countries.
2
It is amazing to me the degree to which these people have divorced their dirty money from the damage their companies have done and continue to do to our society. Their only concerns seem to be finding low-tax places to move to, and complaining about how you have to "keep up with the Joneses" in San Francisco, and considering all the ways that they and their friends are different from the rest of the "tech bros."
The lack of self-awareness and personal responsibility is staggering.
17
Taxes are not the only way to give back to the society.
These people are very young. It is too early to call them selfish. They may become philanthropists like Bill Gates.
In any case, their activities are completely legal. Many retirees from tri-state area move to warmer, lower tax states for the same reason.
8
@NG Just so I understand your position: because it is legal it is ok, correct? If it was not legal would it be wrong? Or is there also an argument about something be legal but considered not moral or ethical so one should not do it. Then take the flip argument which is where many stand on immigration - the act many have done to immigrate to the U.S. was an illegal act but is morally/ethically the right thing for our government to allow even though they broke the law. There are many in this country who want to have their cake and eat it to. We either believe in our laws and enforcing them until they are changed or we decide that any law is open for being ignored without repercussions.
3
There is never enough money for the rich. People worth millions and billions always want to keep as much as possible, and will go to great lengths to insure that they do.
It seems many of the wealthy never grasp how lucky they were to be in the right place at the right time.
6
In response to the remarks that California ex-pats are somehow "depriving society of rightful taxes": one of the reasons California has a relatively high state income tax is because its property-tax laws enacted decades ago ensure that homes are taxed at whatever the home's *original* price might've been -- regardless of a homeowner's own level of wealth. As Warren Buffett has famously pointed out, he only pays a few thousand dollars per year on a Malibu beach house he bought in the early 1970s for a relative pittance, but is today worth millions.
Texas, in contrast, has the opposite problem. Its property taxes are astronomically high *because* it has no state income tax, and despite tax increases (relative to appraisal-level increases) being capped at 15% per year, they're the primary reason why longtime residents throughout the state's major cities are being displaced at such a rapid rate. Seniors on fixed incomes may have lived in homes for decades and paid off their mortgages in full, but routinely end up facing $1,000-a-month (or more!) property tax bills.
Yes, new arrivals to the state have the advantage of not having to pay state income taxes. But aside from the *extremely* lucky few who arrive having already made millions, this income-tax absence is typically a dual-edged sword.
11
@Jeff Scott Burns the Dallas Morning News columnist did a break even analysis on taxes between no income tax / high property tax Texas and income tax / lower property tax New Mexico. Break even is $150K and above.
Seniors get very good benefits on property taxes. Besides the 20 per cent homestead exemption, they get another 10 per cent for bring over 65. Also their property appraisal gets frozen at that age for the rest of their lives. Lastly, seniors can defer paying property taxes after 65 till death. The taxes accrue plus 8 per cent interest to be paid when they sell home or from their estate.
You do not hear very often about seniors forced out of their homes. The problem is really if the next generation, under 65, wants to keep the home. They better be liquid because the state will come looking for its taxes. The state will get its money from sale if the estate cannot pay arrears.
I applaud these people- they worked incredibly hard, and got a bit lucky. But what a waste- during their time in San Francisco, they lived one-dimensional lives and probably didn’t contribute to the cultural fabric one bit. Hopefully, they will eventually make their lives a bit more interesting.
3
Good for them, I bear no ill will to these people. Most of us dream to work hard, save enough money to retire early, and live a comfortable life.
They are still paying their share of federal taxes, and as far as California is concerned, it is attracting enough talent to keep churning out inventions and ideas like these and more.
8
This isn't just a story about leaving SF. It's also a story about the impact these people are having on Austin, my hometown. Every time I go back, the soul of that city continues to diminish. As tech continues to rise in Austin, will it too become another SF or Seattle?
18
Speaking as a Texan who spends most of his time in Austin nowadays, I'll point out that the influx of Californians into the city is decidedly *not* welcomed by many longtime locals. Austin housing prices have nearly doubled in the past five years -- most of all in the parts of town where affluent techies like the ones described here have relocated. The traffic and gentrification issues created by this influx have been two of the city's most pressing problems for quite some time, and they were the core municipal issues in our most recent election last fall.
In one of the richer ironies of it all, Austin's core residential neighborhoods are becoming more and more like the towns that comprise Silicon Valley by the month -- and while they're still considerably less expensive than comparables in the Bay Area, million-dollar houses are now commonplace in neighborhoods where homes sold for around $250,000 barely a decade ago.
16
People keep mentioning supposedly “long time locals”. They may exist, but they are not plentiful. Just because you went to UT and stayed does not make you a local. Austin is no different than Dallas, Houston or San Antonio. When you meet someone that grew up in the city, other than in very low income group, it is a rare occasion. Just about everybody is from somewhere else and that somewhere else is usually from north of the Red River.
Texas grows by several hundred thousand people a year and 90 per cent of them end up in the suburbs of these 4 cities. You can find just about any kind of person here, but it is very, very likely they became that way somewhere else.
The theme here is the ability and discovery of " re-aligning life." Good for them. You don't need to have overwhelming money to do this...but you do need some. Working in high tax states is inevitably a barrier to getting the chance to re-align.
4
Sounds good to me, create wealth in a wealth creating high tax state, then spread the wealth to red states that end up being a drain on the Federal Treasury through transfer programs, food stamps, etc. There are a lot of lovely areas in red states to live (these areas are pockets of blue voters!).
3
@tom They only avoided the state income tax, how are they a burden on the federal tax?
3
@tom Last I checked, Texas, a very Red State, has never been a drain to the Federal Treasury. It is in fact one of its contributors, given that Texas is home to major industries ,is an oil producer and building its own Silicon Valley.
The claim that it is Red States that are a drain is largely a myth.While it is true that many red states are drainers, so are Blue states like New Mexico and Maine. While several Red States, especially the resource rich ones in the Midwest are net contributors.
@Gerald TX is the only red state that may not be a drain. The myth lives!
Kudos to all who are able to “retire” in their 30s. My advice: Take a break, move to a tax free state, reset your lives, and now do something good for humanity and the world.
8
As anyone living in Austin knows: There are LOTS of young people like this moving to Austin. They are NOT moving to other "no income tax' states like Florida or New Hampshire, etc.
Why are they all moving to Austin?
Because it isn't a monotonous dump like Silicon Valley or a city for the uber rich like San Francisco; yet.
7
Jake, you’re mistaken. Austin has most definitely turned into its own urban nightmare. The techies messed up their own nests, and they’ve moved eastward to do the same.
6
As far as i know Americans are free to choose which state they live in, and if the reason for the choice, or part of the reason, is based on lower taxes in the chosen state, surely there is nothing wrong with that.
17
While not a native Austinite, I've been visiting since the 90s and have lived here now for 20 years. I don't begrudge tech, I'm a tech worker. However, I very much so do prefer the Austin of 20 years ago. It was such a better place to live. We even moved out of the city limits, heck, out of Travis County, to try and regain some of that. Unfortunately, the area we moved to has experienced explosive growth the last five years as well. Now we're thinking about moving again, though at this point I don't know where to. Seems like anywhere we want to go ends up having the same explosive growth issues.
12
Well don't go to Maine, we have the same problems.
NY is a horrible place and I'm glad I left. It's too late to move to Austin now as it's more expensive than much of LI and LA and also way better I hope the trend continues and I live long enough to see NY state and its confiscatory tax policies collapse. Dear Albany, please raise the estate and Capital gains taxes more we need more wealthy people in Texas. Oh, and
AOC thanks for the recent Amazon jobs.
14
High taxes are not the only reason to move out California. To those that blame those that move out of San Francisco, have you been to San Francisco lately? When you pay high taxes and see that the government has not done much to improve your place of living, you wonder "why am I paying high taxes for?"
Blame the policy makers.
15
@MM I wrote to the SF Board of Supervisors a couple of years ago, you see my sons do not want visit SF even though we live right outside the city. My 14 year old is really turned off by the drug addicted homeless who accost you on Bart, the tent cities on the sidewalks, the poop and needles in the streets...this is not some urban legend....go visit SF. It really is worse than many developing countries. This has been going on for decades. Marc Benioff is the only techie trying to do something. Also, lots of crime as it is a sanctuary city. Many companies will no longer hold conferences at Moscone Center. It is unsafe, ask any cop or firefighter as well...
1
I usually learn from and enjoy comments as much as the articles, but I finally gave up on these! Both pro and con comments are so harsh, so judgmental.....this article really struck a nerve! Good grief, people! Take some deep breaths.
7
Golly gosh, this is enough to make me skeptical about capitalism (I am being facetious, ICYMI).
So these tech brats can now finish ruining Austin which is already dealing with too much too fast growth and too many spoiled tech brats from California driving up the prices on everything. Regular middle class people can no longer afford to live there.
18
Golly! Who would have guessed that financial incentives, incentivize?
13
"We already made San Francisco uninhabitable; let's see if we can do the same for Austin!"
25
Even for non-millionaires, taxes in CA are too much. My friends and I could save $15-20k a year in taxes by moving to Texas.
Wake up CA gov't. The gravy train is going to end one day.
12
Taking Trump's example - avoiding taxes is called sport, so why not watch sports while avoiding taxes? MAGA - not pay to support and defend the very same country that allowed you to get rich - like a stab in the back, I got mine, sorry.
8
Many *uber*-lucrative California companies are grown and nurtured in California universities. They benefit from this collegiate incubator effect. Then when their people get the money they choose not to contribute to the place that grew them. Prodigals.
11
Gee, no one is complaining about the others and pharma companies that have made millions and opened offshore accounts and in more than one case...do not pay Any taxes.
Uber,Lyft and Cab drivers made their choice, don't blame each other for their shortcomings. No one has forced anyone to drive for the aforementioned companies ..They made a choice ..
3
If they made less than 5 million, they still don't have NYC/SF type money. They might have bought a Tesla, but many Manhattan finance wizards buy a Ferrari, with their million dollar bonus. I live in Wall Street world. So, the amounts here are not impressive to me. Most Manhattan traders feel poor, if they can't buy a 3 million dollar SECOND home. In Manhattan and SF, people are dreaming a seven figure annual income. Not just a seven figure total net worth.
9
@Anti-Marx
I don't consider these people rich. The article is misleading.
I’ve been in both Texas and Ca. I’ve made many millions. Money is less important than lifestyle. I’ll pay my CA or HI taxes, and stay in NorCal or Hawaii, where it never hits 100 degrees, we have both the Pacific Ocean and snowy Sierra mountains. And I get to live among an incredibly diverse assortment of brilliant people from around the globe. I grew up in Missouri. I call it “white toast”. Everybody looks the same.
15
My solution to this is to do exactly what the United States does when someone seeks to move outside their taxing jurisdiction. TAX THEM.
If you are a US citizen, you are taxed on your worldwide income. If you renounce your citizenship and move out of the country to avoid US taxation, you pay massive exit taxes.
So, I think States should do the same thing and they can mirror the US law by setting a minimum networth before there's an exit tax (for the US, it's $2 million in assets).
If a state enabled you to be successful, you should feel it your privilege to pay taxes in that state for enabling your success.
8
Sad and striking how none of these already comfortable and soon to be millionaire tech millennials are quoted as having plans to use their finances philanthropically esp to address serious societal problems that high tech in SF greatly exacerbated, like homelessness, displacement of hundreds of years old communities, lack of affordable housing.
11
These people are tax pirates. They got their jobs in California, they did the work required to earn their compensation in California, but since 90% of that compensation is paid in the form of equity, they can skip out to Texas before the IPO and avoid California taxes. There ought to be something California can do about that. It's just one more method for the .01% to steal the value of the commons from the rest of ourselves. And the NYTimes celebrates it. That's what we've come to.
9
@Rick California can capture a good amount of tax if someone moves out of the state before IPO. This is a misnomer that you can earn all of your equity compensation in California, move to another state and avoid California tax 100%. That's simply not true. There may be cases where, in effect, that COULD be true but, in general, it's not. When an employee's equity compensation attains value (through vesting or exercising) and the employee lives in another state, California wants to tax the portion you earned while you lived and worked in California. So if you lived and worked in California 90% of the time and then moved, California will want to tax 90% of that vesting or exercise. The second piece to this topic is the eventual sale of the stock. The first piece was vesting or exercising but then you have to sell the stock. Once you sell the stock, the employee may avoid California tax on the appreciation that happened after the vesting or exercising. There are so many variables in someone's tax picture that the NY Times can't cover everything but they are not wrong to discuss the motivation behind a lot of tech workers here and it usually has to do with that second piece of selling the stock. I hope that helps! Sorry for the overly long explanation!
2
@Rick: Reporting on it is not celebrating it.
Austin is a mini Silicone Valley. These "guys" (since the article discusses only men) are moving from one "tech bro" to another "tech bro" environment. We may not have a state income tax, but property taxes make up for part of that.
7
Isn't it strange how much productive economic activity occurs in California, New York and Massachusetts, with their high taxes. It's almost as if reality is contradicting the right wing's theory of economics, in which taxes suppress growth. I'm still waiting for the boom times to come in Kansas, Mississippi, etc.
47
@RK
Our MA state income tax is a flat 5.25%, nowhere near the top rates for millionaire earners in other states, yet we're still branded high tax. Healthcare for all and the top public schools in the country -- seems fair enough to me.
7
Yet another reason to hope that Uber stock craters right after IPO. Go Strikers!
6
So it’s easy to stage the tech moguls as villains. Of course they should pay their fair share of taxes. Nothing wrong with relocating to Austin, Portland, Boise, San Diego, etc. for a lower cost of living. What no one talks about is why these companies are overvalued (scooters, ahem), why large corps don’t pay ANY taxes. Don’t hate the individuals; address the system. Or keep letting Amazon and Uber and FB run our world. It’s our choice.
13
It's hard to feel sorry for anyone who still endorses these businesses. While the taxi and luxury transportation industries were screaming about how Uber and Lyft took over a city and bucked all the expensive regulations that the riding public--YOU--demanded from taxi and luxury and were still allowed to operate without fines anyway, you turned a blind eye because it was cheap to call an Uber. Now you're angry that these bottom-dwelling nouveau rich kids are bucking the tax system, too, and depriving schools and cities of necessary funds for critical services? Sorry, I'm saving my empathy for the out-of-work, underwater medallion owners. Reap what you sow.
6
It amazes me that there are millions of Americans with this kind of wealth and so much sympathy for them being overtaxed. This dude is off to Tokyo while people are sleeping in cardboard boxes. Hey, nothing we can do about that, right? Higher taxes slow the economy down. Thoughts and prayers...
15
@Dave Tatlock
As far as I know, only alcoholic and drug-using homeless sleep in boxes. There are tax-funded shelters and halfway houses, but they don't allow drinking or drug use. There are tax-funded paths out of homelessness, but a person must quit drinking/drugs. Therefore, money/funding is not really the problem. The problem is alcoholism/drug-use. It doesn't really matter how much is spent on social problems, as long as most people remain addicted to alcohol and drugs.
I know many rich kids who've overdosed. So, poverty doesn't cause addiction. Addiction causes poverty.
4
I agree addiction is the big problem. But more funding will help more people.
1
@Dave Tatlock
I don't see the logic there. If funding isn't the solution, how will it help?
people ask me if I'm a liberal. I say I'm a moderate, because, to me, the core liberal belief is that income/inequality/poverty causes everything bad in the world. I think it's the passing on of alcoholic/addict genes. I think recovering alcoholics and addicts should do the world a favor by not having kids.
Please move to FL and work with us for the women and children, environment, police brutality, prison system, etc. We need help here. A few of us are bringing the light, but it's a long road that we will not give up.
2
@Calleen de Oliveira
FL just passed a law recently that allows teachers to carry guns in the schools. Er, no thank you very much. I don't even want to step foot in a state that allows that to happen. Teachers, who already have a tough job, are now supposed to step up and take part in a shoot out. Just amazing.
Florida...a sunny place for shady people.
I realize this article is based upon a bit of cherry-picking by the author, but it is interesting to see the display of the shallow interests nurtured by a STEM education. And I am guessing that Nathan Rodriguez overlooked that little detail of medical insurance when he was riding his bicycle around town. The financial numbers mentioned suggest payouts sufficient to ensure a great retirement for 60-somethings but not enough to support 30-somethings for the rest of their lives unless they are smarter than any of the subjects in this article. Cryptocurrency?
I do see this diaspora as healthy for the country, however. Living in a sea of trust-funded millennials in my popular section of Los Angeles, I think it's overdue time for folks elsewhere to enjoy the benefits of their presence.
5
I find this funny. I am sitting in Colorado waiting to clear up some business so I can sell my home and move back to California. Better weather but for a Founder also a better place to start a company. I looked at Austin. First, too hot and not interested in trading being inside in the heat as opposed to being inside in the winter. Second, for its blue blip Texas remains an deep red state as does Florida. Not people I want as neighbors. Also, the whole reason these folks could make the money they did is the nature of California and its economy. They want to benefit from that but not pay the bill. Something no one should applaud or respect. Same old. People want national security but will not serve or wealth without paying for the kind of society that allows you to build it.
35
@Robert
When you pay the bills and don't see the products, that's when you get up and leave.
California politicians love to tax but don't deliver.
2
Robert, I spend months each year in the three states you’ve mentioned. To me it’s a toss-up between Colorado and Texas. Northern California is now a mess , in my opinion. You’re entitled to your opinion , but the towns west of Denver-not Denver - are very livable.
@MM The state is the 6th largest economy on the planet. Some of these folks took advantage of the tech part of that and the heart of the industry. They drove on roads, had clean air and water, could go the Sierras or bike Mt. Tam. As is noted in the article some went to the UC system perhaps with in state tuition. They benefited but do not want to pay. Just as the chicken hawk Jingoist do not serve. However, as Founder if we get funded I know to sort that type out.
4
Having left NorCal once, I'd never move out again. I'd miss my hikes in the mountains, the high deserts and the coast much more than I'd enjoy sitting around in a large, air-conditioned house filled with toys in Texas or Arizona.
But I do sympathize with those fleeing not because California taxes are high, but because how these vast amounts of tax money is either spent without accountability, or spent on completely different things than they were suposed to be, or outright wasted.
I could spend hours with data to prove my points, but the majority of my fellow residents of the state beholden to interest groups are happyliy high drinking the koolaid that what's good for government employee unions is good for the state.
7
Its folks like this who are pouring into Austin who have caused housing prices to increase by almost $200,000 for an average house the last five years.
18
I’m sorry the cost of housing has gone up so much in Austin, but you may recall it was Rick Perry, former governor of Texas, who so gleefully courted California companies away from California 10-15 years ago. At some point Texans will find it costs money to maintain the infrastructure, schools and healthcare that a larger population requires.
5
Nobody is recruiting tech millionaires to lay around Austin. Governor Perry and others recruit firms to provide typical middle manager jobs spread throughout the states. As for housing prices increasing in Austin, the typical Texan think that is Austin’s problem. To most Texans, Austin is that other place. It is like Vegas. What those people do stays there.
1
Save for the generosity of Marc Benioff, tech has ruined San Francisco. There is little but token participation in our civic life by tech corporations or their transient employees. The best example of this is Jack Dorsey of Square and Twitter. Mr. Dorsey has been active in fighting the implementation of City and County Proposition C, a corporate tax increase measure to fight homelessness. Prop C passed handily last November. Mr. Dorsey claims Prop. C is "unfair." To witness unfair I suggest he, and any tech millionaire drive along Hyde Street to see scores of homeless camped on the sidewalks. Unfair is also watching Uber and Lyft drivers who drive into the city from places as far as Sacramento sleeping in their cars between shifts. Income disparity is at the root of the problem. Frankly, Mr. McMullen was paid too much money for his work. An Uber marketing manager making more than a cancer research scientist? A school teacher?
34
@Joe Maliga I disagree that Prop C will or can do anything to fix the blight of homelessness and misery in our streets. The city's budget to deal with homelessness BEFORE Pro C passed was approaching $300 million per year. Money is not the issue - it is a lack of willpower and accountability by our city's elected officials and trickle down effects which result in this worsening crisis. Pro C was a poorly conceived law which imposes a percentage gross receipts tax on business with over $50m in revenue (not profit). That really isn't fair since it doesn't factor in a business' probability or profit margin at all. We need to find ways to effectively and efficiently manage all the city's residents which does not tolerate deranged and sometimes violent drug addicts to litter and defecate in the streets in what is effectively an open air drug market in many neighborhoods... Allowing human decay to take place like this and imposing the inordinately high (and inevitable) emergency (band-aid) costs on heavily burdened taxpayers is cruel and stupid. We need a sustainable solution and to stop tolerating blatant criminality. The city profits off of homelessness since there is no accountability.
2
Luck comes with taking risk. Some of these guys left stable jobs to work for tech startups that paid less than minimum wage (source - another article) while being given generous stock options that could easily have been worth nothing at all. Less than 1 in 10 startups ever makes makes money or lives up to its initial valuation. I don't begrudge these guys there wealth after working insane hours for minimal wages and a dream of riches. I just wish we had a more uniform tax system that would require them to pay equitable taxes.
7
Millennial here who lives and was raised in Austin. It's a different place these days, in large part from people moving to escape the financial cost of places like SF. Austinites (and other cities that are a haven for these young retirees) suffer because our city is behind in dealing with the infrastructure -- the roads, the airport, the strain on our water system-- all of it is under duress with the influx of these tech bros, their families, and people who didn't strike it rich, but just came ahead enough to escape California and cash in here. Then add the property taxes. It's not just Austin proper, but every small city surrounding Austin has seen every level of housing hike up the property tax and people who don't have the jobs like tech to compensate are feeling the pinch. My husband and I thank God that we were able to get into a house 5 years ago. Because now we'd be looking another 30 minutes out and we already have a 30 minute commute. The property taxes are supposed to go to the schools which is great, but the strange "robin hood" recapture laws are now straining urban school districts that have low income kids to educate with crazy high property taxes-- taxes that go out to other poor districts throughout the state. The end result is that Austin slowly becomes another SF. Thanks tech bros, thanks.
9
Article strikes me as a bit naive because the subjects can afford to keep a place in CA to have fun and maintain an address in low tax state for tax purposes only. They also have the time & tech to comply with residency requirements to make the tax dodge possible. In other words, wealth shelters them from both the unpleasant tax realities of living in CA and the unpleasant cultural realities of living in a religious red state. I’m sure there’s the odd techie who was politically & culturally out of place in the SF Bay Area, but I doubt that moving to a flyover state is a trend among wealthy, well-educated tech workers any more than incorporating in Nevada or Delaware is a trend.
Migration to states with lower cost of living has been very common among average income people (especially for young families & the elderly with modest fixed incomes) for decades, but neither they nor the press make a big deal about families following a job to Charlotte so they can buy bigger homes or Grandma & Grandpa moving to Nevada or Florida because their retirement money will last longer.
4
Turns out that Brian McMullen, the former Uber employee who decamped to Texas to avoid paying California taxes, went to school at California Polytechnic State University in San Luis Obispo. He benefited from others paying taxes to support California's public university system, but is now unwilling to pay his share toward a social good when he starts making money. Calling him selfish doesn't begin to describe his behavior.
89
@ericnee Give me a break...Sorry my husband went to Cal Poly and is an electrical engineer and we owe nothing to this state. We have paid $20,000 per year in property taxes for the past 17 years. Our children go to private school since the schools are subpart..except if you can afford a $6 million home in Palo Alto!!!! Last time I checked, people have the freedom in this country to live where ever they want.
17
Turning Texas blue, one tech billionaire at a time.
16
These guys didn’t “get lucky “ without taking personal risks. As for the tax avoidance incentives, what’s the problem with that? Not contributing to society? Another hollow argument. They were part of a fantastic wealth creation cycle. And back to those taxes... yeah take mine and feed those over grossly over generous public sector pensions. Drive through Oakland some time. The streets are a mess. Not just California. Illinois, New Jersey, New York. Public sector pensions are killing those states. So are their pension funds. Sure, let’s raise taxes even more. Spending? Crickets. Guys, good for you. Enjoy it. You earned it. As for all of you little whiners, buy a bike and don’t use Uber.
11
There are times (like after reading articles like this) that I'm glad I'm 60 years old. Between the vapid, soul-less millennials and our precipitous slide into fascism, I'm not sure we're going to recognize this country a couple of generations from now.
40
@Mike Schmidt
Vapid is the exactly correct word for this group.
3
I would be ashamed if Brian McMullen were my son. No thought of any responsibility to others, including to the state that created the conditions that allowed the companies he worked for to thrive: infrastructure, security, education, etc. I'm so sick of these techbros and other "Masters of the Universe" taking advantage of the benefits taxation provides and then refusing to pay their share. Take, take, take. It's gross. They should be ashamed of their selfish and short-sighted behavior. Then again, if they had enough of a moral compass to feel ashamed, they wouldn't be shirking their responsibilities to the communities that supported their prosperity in the first place.
32
@AMinNC
Unless of course this happened to you and then you'd bleat on and on about how you deserve it. I know a former communist who became the most ardent capitalist after he went into business and hit it rich. Funny!
1
@h king Dude, I own my own business, employ 50 people, and I am happy to pay taxes, as I really don't want to live in a libertarian "paradise" a la Liberia. Unlike the GOP, I walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
1
So they are "disrupting" paying their share of taxes now, after getting rich in part by changing the very city they have just left.
21
No mention here of the new tax law, which substantially eliminates the SALT deductions.
These people are not wandering to lower tax states. They are targeted and getting pushed there by deliberately confrontational legislation.
Its war against the blue states, a purposeful hollowing out of their economic engines. Look for IQ45 to begin filing as a Fl resident.
9
A $1.9 million dollar home in SF as an “investment”. Sure. Mr. McMullen better hope CA tax officials aren’t reading. Normally, I’d assume anyone doing something like this would have an airtight lawyer- and accountant-vetted tax avoidance strategy, but who knows.
9
As a San Francisco resident, I applaud any wealthy person who leaves the city, so long as they sell their home first.
And from what I see, this will help turn Texas and Florida blue. I’m all for it.
18
These were the lucky ones; those considered employees. The rest (who've made Uber & Lyft) are low-wage-non-benefited *Independent Contractors"; sorta like the newspaper boy throwing the morning paper on the door step.
11
So they drove up the rents, driving out poor people, then left. The privilege this reeks of is gross.
31
I was fortunate to be part of a small Silicon Valley IPO back in the 90's.
It was a chance of a lifetime for me, but I was taxed at the same rate as people who make a million a year their entire working lives.
I wrote a $30K check to California at the time, and have no regrets doing that.
22
How fitting that former executives of a company whose primary goal is to pull people off of public transportation, have decided to “semi-retire” en masse to Austin TX, a city with low transit ridership where voters have repeatedly rejected transit expansion.
21
"Many tech millennial millionaires said they were relieved to be out of San Francisco, which has gotten increasingly expensive, crowded and filled with carbon-copy tech bros who drone on about their start-ups." Just to name a few of the environmental \ of the tech world culture.
It is ironic that the very the tech millennial millionaires who created this San Francisco are now decamping the city they destroyed. The rest of us are left however with their cultural clearcut and environmental wasteland.
38
People forget that these young millionaires are the outliers. Most startups fizzle out and their employees working on smaller salaries get nothing out of it except unemployment.
9
Even progressive millenials know the value of a dollar, and the onerous income tax rates foisted on taxpayers by the state of California. They are voting with their feet after achieving wealth untold. Increasingly California will be become a welfare state, populated by the poor, welfare dependent, and homeless. Then who will pay the tab?
5
@paul Don’t worry, there are still way too many wealthy people living here.
2
This isn't new. Back in the late '90's a successful startup that I worked for saw at least one founder move their primary residence from MA to NH in anticipation of the tax bill. A number of founders of startups along the northern MA border have founders and other large shareholders living in NH.
Professional athletes debate contract terms and compare tax implications among teams residing in states with varying income tax rates.
I guess I don't understand the point of the article other than some lucky and bright folks use their financial flexibility to reduce their tax bills. If you won the lottery in a major way, you might move to a place with better tax treatment for your situation, too.
11
@historyRepeated
It’s called greed and selfishness.
America is less for it.
13
Now why not do an article that drills into how much more expensive Austin is now than it was years ago, due to the influx of tech? "Expensive" is all relative.
8
@Deb
Thank you. Exactly my point. As an Austin resident for 26 years I have seen a transformation from a little weird town to an unaffordable hipster city. Locals are clinging for dear life to their unaffordable homes. Everything is more expensive now if you are local. There is a direct link to the mass exodus of wealthy coming here over the years from other states. It’s unbearable to watch your elderly mother have to move to another city because of rapid rise in housing costs
6
Exactly what is happening in many communities in Northern California and the Bay Area. And with the
I was struck by the employee burnout which is an undercurrent in this article and seems so prevalent in today's corporate life. I worry about where we go from here - the way people are forced to work today does not seem sustainable.
242
@LS
The new slavery, 2019 style.
Survival of the fittest and winner take all is the new American dream !!
22
@LS. Burn out at age 33 with millions in the bank? Yeah my heart weeps for you. Get real.
12
@LS There's a whole other side to the Bay Area that rarely gets talked about. Not in San Francisco, but in San Jose there are family neighborhoods and family events and schools and kids etc. just like everywhere else. People focus on the tech bros and ignore the 80% of the rest of the population.
9
I don't see how you can blame them. There's no reason to stay in a high tax state if you can avoid it.
9
@Joe. Sure. If you don’t consider the implications and bigger picture /there is a negative impact caused when the rich move to cheaper digs. Cheaper for them, in mass and over time cause push out of regular residents because their “cheap “ is another’s “ I could never afford that “.
4
@Marshall
The implications and bigger picture aren't their problems
@Marshall There's an easy fix to that. Don't have an onerous tax rate that is going to drive the rich away.
2
Austinites will never use the term low tax state. This is a term only applied to business owners. Texas is very business friendly ( low taxes) but the article mentions nothing about the property tax crisis going on right now. Texas and especially Austin is second in highest property tax in the country. Affordable housing is considered a crisis in Austin. Many many long time residents have been “taxed out” and can no longer live here. Of course a young multi millionaire would not be concerned with paying property taxes that are more than their mortgage. Ask a local and they will tell you that this exodus to Austin from other states is the reason there $200k house is now a 650k ( in 4 years) with taxes far beyond what they ever expected. Local mom n pop shops that create the indie vibe here close on a weekly basis. If the author of this article had dug a bit deeper they would, I hope, completed what I consider a very one way business centric article . This is not the complete story. The headline is misleading.
15
This article is about a strict minority...young, single, male, smart and exceedingly lucky.
You can't whine that there is no affordable housing in CA and follow it with complaints that the rich are moving away.
1
https://techxplore.com/news/2019-05-ridesharing-companies-worsened-congestion-san.html
This is the result of the government refusal to build mass transit like the trolleys my Dad rode in downtown Indianapolis. The lack of electric trams like Mnpls & St Paul has created this adventure in capitalistic exploitation excess. Shame..
1
It’s called voting with your feet.
4
People are greedy and self-serving. Same old same old.
9
I live in California. It is awesome. Whenever I hear somebody who wants to move from California to a low tax place like Texas, Nevada or Florida, I pull five dollars out of my pocket and give it to them for their U-Haul.
Use the wonder that is the California miracle. Use our schools. Use our culture. Use the spotlight that shines here like nowhere else, no thanks to you, and Hoover up your cash. You are a user, a taker, and you may leave. Please do.
Enjoy the summertime 110° heat! Soon it will be 120°. Maybe it will warm your empty soul.
72
@Pancho
Thank you !!
12
@Grove All good my brother or sister!
1
People with vast resources who obsess about a few percentage points of tax are mentally diseased. It's probably better that they remove themselves and cluster in this way.
19
So after ruining the San Francisco for many natives with congestion and skyrocketing rents they are leaving. Good riddance! Uber & Lyft have destroyed the lives of lifetime (40+ year opposed to McMullin's long time 8 years) taxi drivers and taxi companies.
12
Exploitation of workers is ruining the country and should be illegal.
These people would still make huge amounts of money without depriving others of the basic necessities of life.
This winner take all economy is depraved.
9
And this is what’s ruining Austin.
9
@Art123
Tell them that they have to pay their fair share and they will likely move out.
Greed and selfishness.
4
Just imagine the thrilling cultural advantages gained by relocating to a state like Texas. Wow! Can hardly wait!
14
So even left leaning millennials are fleeing California once (before) they become multi millionaires from tech start up to avoid hefty six and seven figure tax bills ...
Lesson for democratic socialists ... you can’t tax your way to prosperity .. cause the goose that lays the golden egg flies south to Florida or Texas
8
Why do you assume that these guys are left-leaning? They'd probably self-describe as Libertarians, which in my book is the same as far-right on weed.
6
Good for them, I just hope they don't vote for the same people that will raise their taxes.
7
The streets in San Francisco are in such disarray that I witnessed a bicyclist hit a pothole and flipped nearly killing herself. Public schools are so stretched students have to sell raffle tickets for cheap prizes. Public transportation is so unreliable it takes an hour or more to go 7 miles across town. Homelessness is rampant in most of the overly expensive neighborhoods. There are currently a lot of well-salaried employees in the city paying their taxes, yet, city government has failed to address each one of these issues. Where are all the tax money going, or not going? At the same time, city officials are giving tech companies huge tax breaks to create jobs. It's a no-win situation. Perhaps tech bros leaving the city, and the state, would alleviate the congestion, the shortage of affordable housing and strain on the infrastructure. I don't know what the answer is but I just don't understand how a city that produces so many millionaires, and billionaire, is in such a mess.
18
@Bun Mam
The rich don’t care.
2
@Bun Mam We recently held a conference in SF. Our attendees were solicited by the homeless everywhere they went in one of the richest cities in the country. We actually witnessed someone defecate in the street, which I thought was a wild urban myth. For as beautiful as SF is, we won't be returning. It was not only one of the most expensive conferences in terms of costs everywhere (hotels, meeting spaces, negotiating F&B, union rates, etc. etc.), it was the least friendly of all the cities we've rotated through so far (8 in all now). Newsom did wonders for SF; I can't wait to see how he falls for the rest of the state.
6
It’s hilarious to hear people who worked for a few years in a wealthy job and industry and do nothing now talk in a denigrating manner about people who ‘retire to the beach’. They did that because they paid taxes, worked long weeks for 50 or 60 years and raised families and had communities. They didn’t have the luxury of leaving their friends and families behind to lower their taxes. So this generation is so amazing and wants to give back and be really active during retirement, unlike the ones now, supposedly. I know many retired people who do ten times more and are healthier than these. They exercize, keep their weight down, take care of their families and volunteer and travel. And not one would go to a movie instead of Japan.
8
Mr McMullen is and never will be a good neighbor, so please your type should go back to where you came from. his last words of "maybe we don't want to be there our entire lives" Well, do me a favor, you dont like the place enough to stay, then you are just passing through. Please go now. The attitude of "rich with no ethics" that makes these people well, not good neighbors. Brian will try to change Austin with "his likes" but them leaves cause, well,
because he really doesn't stand for anything. Austin natives will be happy to see them go, .. and Brian will move back to SF thinking he is now "getting back to life". Park slope Brooklyn see this every 7 years, new POP-up people who think "they are so cool" for the neighborhood, but then you find out they are shallow, like really shallow, like seeing End Game Avengers three times... and reading Harry Potter ... all that money and thats all he thought of!
8
I believe he was from San Luis Obispo originally, he should move back there. We don't want him back here. And he should sell the house he bought here as well so at least the inventory is on the market for people physically living here.
3
“Less than a million” and “several hundred thousand” ain’t rich.
9
@Chris
For a single 30 year old it is.
1
Coming to Austin to escape tech bros is a fools errand. We're awash in them.
11
Just like Trump, who evaded/avoided taxes.
3
There’s a difference in minimizing taxes legally and illegally.
3
28-year resident of Austin here. I can't help but think that the locusts have descended upon this town.
A pox on all of them.
7
Yuck. Let’s raise their taxes immediately.
1
We get it... articles like these are the perfect fodder for our modern political warfare. They spark intense anger and debate as conservatives will share this news wide and far, pounding their chests that their sworn enemy, the "libs" in the "blue states," are losing the battle. The perfect recipe for clicks and shares.
And of course, it's all anecdotal with not even a hint of data to back it up. A few select interviews. No mention of the 99% of other Uber employees who stayed in SF, either to continue working, be near their families, or b/c they don't mind paying higher taxes.
Also, how is no one addressing the fact that they quit their jobs and therefore will no longer be earning an income? They made this move entirely to avoid losing 13% of... future earnings if they decide to start working again?
The slant of this article would make just as much sense if it says, "They got rich and then moved to states with more cows"
I get that the NYT has a business to run, but cmon, you're wayyy better than this.
6
Calling Texas a "low tax state" is at best a misnomer and at worst factually incorrect. It may have no income tax, but if you are in the lowest quintile of Americans, it is one of the states with the highest tax burdens. When the New York Times says "low tax state" here what they mean is "low tax state for the wealthy" or "this former tech startup employee will pay less taxes in another state," but that does NOT make it a "low tax state" -- it is the nature of the taxpayer who will make be paying less in taxes not a universal nature of the state in question.
3
Mmmh, the change in demographics in Texas could be interesting for Texas in 2020.
2
California, that “high tax state”, with its at one time excellent public school system paid for with our tax dollars, apparently turned out lots of game loving little brainiacs, the “ talent pool”, that tech companies were looking for beginning three decades or so ago, ergo they all moved to Silicon Valley. I must admit had I known that the California of today and the self centered folks such as those profiled would have been the result of my gladly paying up to 80% of my income in the fifties and sixties for the privilege of living in such, at that time, such a beautiful place as San Francisco, where there were excellent and reasonably priced four year public colleges and two year Junior Colleges, great parks, roads, yes even healthcare was excellent in the fifties and sixties, I might have been in agreement with some of these young folks, I wouldn't want my money supporting the out of control mess created by the arrival of tech and runaway immigration. From the sound of things Texas is the next place that will see the disappearance of the middle class as techies shove out the rest leaving only room for the poor to serve them their lattes and designer tacos.
4
They will be bored by 45 and find they are too old to get another job. A friend of ours made a fortune before the fee first dot come bust in the 90’s. They built a 13,000 sf custom home in Atlanta. He drove the kids two and from school. Coached basketball.
He must have lost a good bit of the money when the stock market crashed the last time. I heard he was working at some $100k job. They keep trying to sell that $13,000 sf house. It has been on and off the market for year. She told me that with that size house you need full time help. After the kids weren’t babies she didn’t want full time help. The taxes are hundreds of thousands of dollars on the big houses in red states! You might not have the income tax at 13%, that is what that Prop did in California it let people stay in their houses.
1
Perhaps there shouldn't be the disparity of tax revenues by states, but an equal tax rate for all states and a different method of distribution?
3
So let me get this straight - unskilled Apple Store employee moves to San Francisco where he wins the lottery and becomes employee 16 at Uber. Moves up the ladder while hanging out for 8 years, apparently not contributing to the local culture or ever removing himself from the filter bubble of tech bros. As soon as the IPO hits, he bounces to a tax shelter, where he pays cash for a house, probably over asking price, contributing to gentrification there, and also buys a house here as an investment, contributing to the housing crisis in the city that made him rich. He's the sort of guy that, when you find out they work at Uber, they say, "Oh no, I work in marketing." He even plans on his own start-up and is casually learning "a programing language." And he apparently sees no irony in any of this. Wow. I hate to break it to you pal, but * you * are a tech bro. Meanwhile software engineers like me who are generally vilified as "tech bros" frequently can't collect these fat sums because despite our high salaries we are often treated like slave labor and have to leave long before an IPO because it takes a year or two to burn us out, not 8. Turns out doing the hard work of making the actual product is much more taxing than eating your free chia pudding and then fiddling with spreadsheets and promo codes all day and then clocking out at 5 or 6, as most marketing people do. And then due to agesim, you "age out" eventually, and maybe to make ends meet, perhaps you... drive an Uber.
32
As a Northeast native who has lived on the SF Peninsula for 25 years, the Bay Area is no longer worth it. I can definitely understand why the young are leaving. Anyone in their 20s and 30s would be crazy to come here. 1) Housing is exorbitant $2 -3 million for a shack. 2) K - 12 public school system is mediocre at best. 3) UC System and State colleges terribly impacted with out of state students and kids from Cali can not get in. 4) I pay $20 k per year in property taxes on a $1.7 million home. 5) The ocean dangerous drowning all the time off the coast and finally SF is full of the homeless. Conferences no longer will come here. Great weather, but that is about it. It was nice 25 years ago, but no longer. There are 49 other states out there pick one!!
9
@Out West I want to add that the public and private school teachers can not afford to live here. Every school we have been in has had tremendous teacher turnover. Entire staff and administrators every year....The public school system is really bad...sorry to sound so negative...but if you grew up in a high performing state like NJ, MD, CT, NY, MA, VT or NH you would be shocked. Private schools cost $25 - $47,000 per year starting in second grade...Think long and hard before moving here. Not worth it...only if you are an engineer and then make your money and leave!! I don't blame these techies at all for leaving...
4
Saddened, by these life philosophy choices. No wisdom shownin coming here only to make money at our expense but not contributing to the state's needs and making everything look the same. Silicon Valley used to be wonderful orchards. Living in the SF Bay Area for about 40 years I see much greed now. No contributions to preservation of what made this area so attractive such as its natural beauty and a genuine spirit of appreciation of the uniqueness of San Francisco Bay Area residents and culture and environment. Everything has been monetized. As one start, I think every new tech worker should be required to first watch the 4 part documentary on PBS called Saving The Bay which was just on air again last weekend, as part of their company orientation. And a cap put on new tech businesses and buildings. I think there should be some payment back to the community they profited from. I believe we will find that again in the future here but it takes leadership and wisdom.
6
California's population has doubled during the time that I lived here so hearing that some are moving brings a smile to my face. Of course, the population of the Golden State is still rising with growth projections of about 4 million over the next 10 years so we need a lot more people to take the texas challenge. What does growth of 4 million look like? This would be greater population growth than ND, SD, MT, ID, WY, UT, OK, IA, KS, MS, NE combined.
2
@osavus. Actually California picked up only 40,000 new residents in the past year. Trends are seldom linear and with our population banging up against 40 million it's inevitable (and what a relief!) that the influx halts until other desirable places become similarly crowded.
2
Maybe our highly taxed blue states like NY, CA and CT (and my state of Minnesota) will rethink their strategy of confiscatory state and local taxation of the “rich”. But somehow - I don’t think they will even consider it until no one is left to tax.
8
I write this after reading many of the comments.
The discussion of the success of the technology workers often mentions the long, long hours and stress of their achievement.
I did not read of the role of generational wealth present in that success.
I work with interns from universities. They work without pay for university credit and experience. They plan to continue after graduation to 501c3s and other low pay start ups. Others plan for careers in medicine.
One graduate joined a social enterprise as Employee #1. Endless days and nights. Physical disasters. Quit to join another idealistic company. Will she ever receive millions?
Another young woman gained national scholar status in high school, received a scholarship to an Ivy league university, then continued through medical school and residency. She serves at a VA hospital. Paid less than millions.
The two young women came from California families with some wealth and much education. Taxes paid for the education of the parents, California earnings paid for their children to receive superior educations, family money backed their years as students and interns.
Money earned and banked -- despite taxes -- in California launched the two young professionals. Taxes paid for their educations.
Opportunities provided in California supported the aspirations of the above-described students. Will the low tax states offer the educations and opportunities to generate the wealth to serve as the foundations of success?
8
What about the actual Uber and Lyft drivers? I guess all boats don't float. I don't blame the drivers for going on strike and demanding better pay and benefits. At least the drivers stay in the cities and states they work in. They also pay local taxes which helps boost schools. They are part of the communities from which these "perfect-storm-luckies" fled from. I don't take Uber or Lyft and I never will. I hope sometime during video game play or reading Harry Potter, these millenials will think about the reason they got so lucky, yes (tech skill), but also the hard work of drivers who continually bring back customers.
9
“I moved out of San Francisco to get away from the people like me who were clogging up and ruining San Francisco.”
490
@A
During yesterday's "strike" by Lyft and Uber employees drivers reported actually being able to drive somewhat normally around SF.
One of today's front page stories was a study conducted by the SF County Transportation Authority that found a 62% increase in congestion in the last 6 years largely attributed to Lyft and Uber and that 70% of the drivers live outside SF (Some as far away as the Central Valley).
21
@A
And now they can clog up Austin. Maybe we can get a return to normalcy in the Bay Area.
15
@A I find it astounding that the New York Times would see fit to officially endorse a comment which un-ironically accuses named, interviewed individuals of "ruining San Francisco," without further comment. I wonder what specific actions taken by Mr. McMullen and Mr. Rodriguez might have plausibly "ruined" San Francisco in the view of the Times.
9
Austin doesn’t need anymore California transplants
8
Anyone moving to Texass will get a rude awakening when they trade one stress with ten others. Weather is uninhabitable, except for some exceptions, food is abominable, everyone is armed and dangerous, drivers get their licenses from mail-ins from cereal boxes, tornadoes, hurricanes, fracking, poisonous snakes and equally poisonous politics. Need more? They can’t move back to civilization because their previous home is now unaffordable.
Losers all.
16
They are moving to Austin, not Dodge City.
13
Wow, as a CA native who has lived in San Francisco for over 40 years, this article captures why so many of us in the city feel like it has become an island of the self-absorbed. Employed in a nonprofit that is actually doing something to "change the world", the tech companies are just the latest Gold Rush wave to use San Francisco to make money and leave. We find little investment by these companies in the San Francisco Bay Area communities despite Marc Benioff's encouragement and leadership, but then again, he's a native. Maybe when they grow up and have real adult responsibilities beyond their own needs will they understand that true satisfaction comes with relationships with real people outside of work and with building a community where you live. For me, I will be glad when this frat house of a city moves on.
27
I am happy never to have used Uber or Lyft.
1
The subtitle of this article says Texas is a "lower-stress" state.
Huh?
Please explain. Lower tax, perhaps. Lower housing prices, yes. But I live in high cost Portland OR and Texas sounds HIGH stress to me!
4
Marie S: unfortunately Marie, Portland has evolved to a less attractive version of San Francisco, lots of homeless natives as highly paid techies and wealthy Asians swarmed the city and adding to the fight for a roof over ones head Portland has become a sanctuary city, go figure.
1
They should all move to Texas and Florida before 2020 and vote. Me, Texas was too boring and humid. So I'll stay here, pay tax and lead the nation in fighting for the climate and single payer. And yes, I drive Tesla. This "vanity" can now be had for a little more than a loaded Camry and my operating cost has been a fat zero after 3 years and a cross country trip that included Austin.
12
.. moved to a low tax State
That would rule out NY State, consisting of 3 wealthy island (NYC, LI, and Albany) floating in an otherwise decaying State ,
NYS Population 2015 19.6614 Million
NYS Population 2018 19.5542 Million
Texas Population 2015 27.4868 Million
Texas Population 2018 28.1718 Million
2
I’m happy to see the New Yorkers that only think about taxes leave. In the long run the state is better for it. Go and enjoy Texas! Don’t forget to bring your gun so you can deal with road rage.
1
its very simple folks...when pols learn to spend less and tell truths to their constituents, tell gov't employees that pensions and benefits are not a never ending candy jar, tell those here illegally that they cannot expect anything other than minimal services...then they will spend less tax less and people will leave less...it's simple....
3
So it turns out these young liberal techies were closet conservatives after they got "theirs". Color me shocked.
Lowest high school achievement in the union. Highest rate and amount of high school dropouts. Low taxes making for terrible schools. Highest number of minimum wage jobs.
What's the use of fleeing "high" taxes to a place where you can't even send your kids to the schools.
On an unrelated note these stocks are highly over valued and will quickly tank. Lyft is facing a class action suit and expect the same for uber for these ponzi-scheme valuations. Aced finance in college and I don't remember anything about companies losing billions seeing such ideal valuations. This is not going to end well so get your checkbooks out for the next bailout.
15
Please don’t refer to Austin as “low-tax.” For those of us who own a house here, annual property taxes are almost as much as what we pay in mortgage fees.
5
I've lived in the Bay Area for 40 years. I've been reading stories about the supposed exodus from the area for all that time. Yet, somehow, housing prices keep going up and the population keeps increasing. The fact that a few rich folks don't like taxes doesn't seem newsworthy.
4
One of the reasons CA income taxes are so high is because their property taxes are relatively low. Forty years ago, pre Prop 13, college was virtually free in CA.
And what do the people of Austin think of their new residents?
6
@Robert You actually think property taxes are low over here? Frankly it takes my breath away. I'm a NYC transplant (former NYC homeowner) living on the peninsula. I pay over $6K a year in real estate taxes for my 725 square foot apartment. And even with Prop 13 taxes are continually going up because the counties get around it by increasing fees for services. And of course, there is high income tax.
2
Startups will grind you up and burn you out. No wonder they’ve moved on. I can’t blame them.
I’ve worked in the “tech” industry in the Bay Area, in design, for over 20 years (though never at a startup). I’ve taken two career breaks to rest, enjoy life, the family and other interests, and recharge. I’ve never gotten rich off of any of my jobs, but I love what I do and I’ve never done it to get rich. But it can be grueling at times and you have to find ways to also pay attention to quality of life.
6
What’s up with the gender ratio in this article? This would have been good to discuss openly. Was the NYT filtering for men, or do the female programmers and early employees behave differently?
208
@Scientist How many females like that exist?
9
@Scientist I suspect the females were not adequately compensated so as to be able to retire at 33.
60
@Scientist
Good question about the women programmers. Either they were never employed by Uber (likely) or they feel some obligation to making their community better and they stick around and pay high taxes.
33
The shame is, they’re boring.
9
So true. Travelling to watch the Avengers? Geeze.
Here is a shorter read of this article: “enough about me, what do you think about me?!”
4
This is how high tax states are slowly killing themselves
5
The high taxes provide the fertile soil that apparently supports and nurtures the start ups and then once they succeed they abandon the state. Just like all the big auto companies did to Detroit. Or how America lost its manufacturing businesses to Mexico and overseas. But you wish to blame America and the states for daring to create the conditions that created the wealth? Typical of the thinking that has led to our decline.
10
@James Osborne
It has more to do with the location of Stanford, UC Berkeley and Cal Tech than the “nurturing environment “.
2
@Me: exactly. and why are those institutions located in California?
Keep Austin Weird? Sigh. Just another generic boomtown now. Maybe you’ll be lucky and your town will be next.
4
How about using your money and influence for wider good, fellas?
7
Yes, tech Millennial millionaires, please do move to Austin. It will be your panacea. Keep telling yourself that. Repeat after me...”Austin is my panacea....Austin is my panacea...Austin is....”
4
Amazing! An article in The NY Times that says people dislike high taxes. Maybe Paul Krugman should read this one.
7
Everyone tries to escape the brutality of capitalism, even the "winners". This is the result of a society that puts an emphasis on the bottom line over quality of life.
6
Just because they got rich did not make them stupid.
Of course they left CA.
Duh.
8
Enough of this. Uber and Lyft make money only because they don't pay for anything. The driver has to absorb the cost of the car, the gas, the cell phone. Enough of these con men. I say this as a driver who despite achieving "gold" status cannot pay for my cell phone. I am really sorry for my riders yesterday who were in my car when I ran out of gas. Uber and Lyft only works in states like Florida there isn't unemployment insurance anymore. I am tired of grifters. I waited two hours in the hot sun for a road ranger to come with gas.
399
@Stanley
I’m so sorry for your situation. I can’t imagine the bait and switch hell this rapacious company has created for you.
THIS is why I’ll call a cab or walk before I use Uber or Lyft. That supposedly woke liberals and progressives still enthusiastically support these monsters who crush their workforce while their leaders retire rich to financially support red state rollback to the 19th Century is beyond any comprehension.
110
@Stanley
I agree about the method of generating Uber and Lyft revenue is one where they let the drivers absorb the true operating expenses.
However, why would you let your vehicle run out of gas? How does that help you? What is a road ranger?
21
@Stanley If it weren't for that gun that, whomever you drive for, being held against your head you could quit and work elsewhere.
14
The problem with moving from California to anywhere else is the damned humidity- especially in Austin.
13
@Peter
This Chicago native attended a family reunion in Austin a few years ago. The oppressive heat meant that I spent a good portion of the trip seeking out dark, cool spaces. Not for me!
4
In my mid 60's, born in PA, worked for 35 years in CA and retired here. To some of us older folks, paying taxes is what makes our country what it is. Share the abundance and share the pain. It's a privilege to live in a beautiful state that leads the way on so many environmental and social issues. But to each his own!
621
@From Where I Sit
Oh yes, "your success" which just dropped from nowhere as a heavenly reward for talent. Nothing to do with luck, resources, or anything else. Why share it, when you deserve more than all the rest?
74
Funny how this country was most prosperous and egalitarian when taxes were significantly higher than they are presently.
You’re subscribing to the myth of “wealth = success,” which is complete nonsense. Look at these kids in this article - all wealthy, young, made some smart choices years ago, and are now dodging taxes from the place (CA) that allowed their very prosperity. And they’re sitting around playing video games.
108
We demand that your wealth not be so egregious that it robs the system that allowed for it in the first place of the ability to function. It is a sign of dysfunction.
33
I encourage these retirees, once they catch their breath, to use their money to support their new communities. Build affordable housing now that you have driven up the rental market. Build and fund a community center in addition to flying to Japan. Support the arts in your new home states in addition to flying to Caly for big movie premieres. I think you will find such activities and experiences will turn a huge profit not only for your communities, but for your personal level of happiness.
358
@queryious
Yeah...cuz this is Berkeley in 1968. Not.
7
@queryious
For many they are too busy showing off their new four-wheeled electric jewelry. Let us hope their children see the bigger picture while it's still possible.
16
In a rare super left moment for me, I’ll suggest these Uber and Lyft millionaires help support the cab drivers they put out of business..
409
How much do the heirs of Henry Ford owe to the families of hostlers and buggy whip makers?
29
@From Where I Sit Faster cab service versus a completely new technology are not equivalent.
8
@Midwest Josh Yes. We must absolutely insist on reparations for decendents of luddites put out of work by those steam loom millionaires! They will get over it. We will get over it.
9
Life ain't fair. I'm an old guy who spent 10 years post college getting my medical training (including two years as a shipboard medical officer mostly at sea in WESTPAC, and I wonder how many of these millionaires are veterans.). Once trained, my pay was limited by Medicare, insurance companies, and the $30-50K a year I wrote off because poor people couldn't pay, period, and I had to treat them both morally and legally (the 1986 EMTALA law.) Oh yes, if I made a mistake at 2 am, since I did take night call, I could be sued for everything I had and more. Life ain't fair. I made a good living, and while I worked 80-120 hour weeks, the government subsidized a lot of my training.
Now 70, I volunteer everywhere I can in my community, from teaching math to clearing Cascade trails. I have long realized that the roads I drive on, the skies I occasionally fly in, the food I eat, the water I drink, the energy I use, was in large part created by infrastructure that the federal government decided we needed and taxed us for (more in blue states BTW.) It's nice that people who work hard get rewarded. But remember those who worked just as hard who never got those rewards. Life ain't fair. But don't ever think you did it all yourself. Almost everything around you is subsidized or made safer by regulations that were put in place because unregulated societies don't function well.
412
@Mike S.
Thank you for writing this and for all that
you do.
These grifters who take, take, take because they think infrastructure is something the little people pay for can move to red states for all I care. I was here long before California was a billionaire brotopia and will be when it’s over. We did fine with less money and less people then and will do so again.
I recently took a drive up north along the coast and its jaw dropping beauty still brings tears to my eyes. My own drives through Texas (many, many in the north, center, and south since childhood) and Florida produce no similar reaction.
And if they’re the kind of people who are just fine hanging around religious zealots who are at this moment passing legislation to create Gileads in each of those states, then good riddance. Let’s see if they’ll stay put when their kids come home spouting homophobia and racism or are themselves gay and bullied or their daughters get pregnant and can’t find a decent clinic. Want to bet they’ll be on the first plane back to a pro-choice doctor here?
57
@Mike S. Sorry mate, but what's your point?
6
@Mike S.
Society that sets the floor too high and the ceiling too low are the ones that inevitably fail.
3
Nauseating to see that not a single one of these “tech bros” made any mention of plans to trade even a fraction of their privilege for progress. Once again, a generation of white males make out like bandits in businesses that are wreaking havoc on the environment and the stability of low income jobs (last time I checked the ride-sharing business is NOT sustainable on any front), and have absolutely no self-awareness about the suffering going on around them, nor sense of community responsibility. Desperately hope we one day figure out how to inspire more social responsibility among this demographic.
124
@Christina
These guys are under no obligation to do any of the things you listed. Who are you to decide what they should or shouldn't do?
Also, maybe just because there isn't any mention of it doesn't mean that they aren't doing any of the things that in your (unimportant) opinion people should be doing.
21
Give them a break. They have only been there for a month. They are probably more concerned about moving than setting up a charitable foundation.
6
Sounds like I touched a nerve there RFB. I graduated from Stanford with guys just like this, whom I’ve yet to see reinvest any of their millions back into the community, now over a decade past their early retirements. All white men who came from privileged backgrounds. You and I just disagree about the responsibility of privilege, and unfortunately it appears more people in the country align with you around that than they do with me. It is a sad state, in my (unimportant) opinion. Hopefully these young men will eventually discover that the fulfillment they are looking for may more likely come from social entrepreneurialism rather then venture capitalism. Who knows!
12
Good for these people. They got what most salaries folks covet anyway. Good for them.
5
Uber's long term goal is far more nefarious than just exploiting low paid drivers. Their push for autonomous vehicles has but one goal: get rid of those drivers all together.
3
@Thomas Currently Uber’s longterm plan seems to involve food delivery and scooters. But short term investors and founders will make a ton on the IPO and, if the histories of Lyft and Snap are any guide, then the stock will tank.
@Thomas And that is wrong because? Can we shed a tear for all candlestick makers redundant by that nefarious Edison character? I will gladly take my chances with an autonomous vehicle that never takes its eyes off the road rather than a sleepy human any day of the week.
6
Nonsense. If they were really moving to reduce stress, they would have moved to another part of California. The reason that California and New York are losing so many newly rich millennials to Texas and Florida is taxes and the constant self defeating droning of "tax the rich" and "the rich are evil" coming from the left.
I mean, what did you expect was going to happen?
9
No, I have a friend moving from high-tax NJ to Nashville, which is a vibrant low-tax area, and it is clearly a much less stressful place to live (even with all the growth) than NJ/NYC. Shorter commutes, lower prices for entertainment and excellent music, art and food. A good trade!
2
Reading this while their drivers are striking to earn a living wage is making me sick.
18
@Tony Gamino Exactly, which was my previous post to @Thomas
1
This isn't anything new. Starting in 1849, the plan for many was 1. move to California, 2. get rich, 3. leave with your money for someplace cheaper to live.
The unmentioned part of the traditional plan is leaving your mess behind when you leave.
12
Having fun taking from other people. No innovation, no exceptional talent. Just rip off the taxi drivers, the cities, the regulations. No thought of now paying a fair share of their unearned income. You can see it in the empty far away stares In the pictures. No idea why their here other than the American myth of more makes you more! Of what...who cares...I can fly half way across he world for a movie opening.
Lemmings following Trump.
9
Their lives sound pretty boring, they may have money, but no idea of how to live.
9
Well it’s good they are not buying up houses here. We don’t need anymore competition for housing. The costs are too great. Good for them.
Maybe if they’re good people they will shine a lite in Texas or Florida.
1
High property taxes, high sales tax...both regressive taxes on the middle/low income Texans. Added to this thread bare social services. This is a hard state to live in if you aren't rich.
6
We have millions of thriving middle class families with more coming in every day. Texas does not really care too much about a few millionaires moving to the state. They do not do much for the state. When corporations like Toyota and State Farm transfer tens of thousands of middle managers here, they make the state better and their employees’ wallets bigger while saving money at corporate level.
2
Wait a minute! I thought liberal millennials want and support the idea of paying their fair share and support the idea of higher taxes make society economically equal by spreading the wealth.
6
The real story here is that even with a million dollars in your pocket you can’t buy a decent home in San Francisco. Well unless you get a mortgage for the other million or so it will cost you ... and keep working ...
At least these burned out 30 year olds have a choice. Pity the poor teachers and nurses and artists and librarians and on and on ... they don’t have a chance.
9
We don’t need to wonder how Trump got to be president any longer.
3
Why do you assume they voted for Trump? From my experience, many NJ/NY’ers moving to Austin, Nashville, Denver etc are still thoughtful liberal progressive-minded people.
1
I have plenty of friends who worked in the public sector in NYC... cops, firemen, sanitation, et al, who, while working, chose to live in LI or NJ instead of NYC, their employer, for a better quality of life.
Once they put in their time and retired, many fled NY to no-tax Florida, all while collecting pensions paid for buy all of us NY'ers, to enjoy a lower cost of living.
I see no difference between them and anyone else who chooses to leave a high tax state, whether they are millennials or retirees.
So maybe also point your fingers at the public sector before you chastise a few kids who hit the jackpot.
10
A bathtub in the middle of a bedroom? Wow, I would definitely move out of state for that!
7
@Jim Bob
Even Kramer (in Seinfeld) didn't move when he bought his hot tub. He understood the value of community.
4
I lived in the San Francisco during the first tech boom. Thankfully it was still quite livable. By the time I left (and no, I did not and never became a multi-millionaire, because only a handful actually do but they're the ones making all news) I could no longer find another affordable apartment.
All that time I'd wished there were more high tech jobs in SF because I don't drive, and I couldn't see myself in Silicon Valley. Little did I know that my wish would come true, and instead destroy the city and culture I loved.
The problem, as reflected in these moves, regardless of the specific reason, is that we have been unable so far to combine the availability of work with a quality of life (inc. affordability) in the same location. Communities providing the former typically have high taxes to provide the needed services that encourage businesses, large and small, as well as education and transportation. Then either the community is strained by people coming in, or those wanting to pay fewer taxes or get away from the city move away - but not always that far;
Here in Massachusetts, where there is both high and bio tech, people move to New Hampshire but continue to work in the state - taking advantage of what taxpayers here provide, as well as the jobs, without having to pay the local taxes; I suppose they 'pay' with a long commute. At least Mr McMullen is no longer attempting to have it both ways, but that's because he no longer needs to work.
1
As noted in the article... despite the title of the article.. it is NOT income taxes that drive them away... it is the stress-crush of constantly being on the go and in the know in the SF community of techies. Lower income taxes is more gravy then substance for the wealthy. Even here in Silicon Valley south of SF... techies generally look down on SF as a pretentious bromance community of people stuck on themselves. It is actually difficult for some SF tech companies to recruit from Silicon Valley, which is just 40 minutes south.
From a total tax view perspective... California is not that bad actually compared to other states. Oregon is much worse overall in terms of tax friendliness. For California, more of it's tax base is progressive in nature too then states like Texas.
4
@Chuck you missed the bus, if you cash in on the money you spent working 100 hours a week for you get hosed the progress is not there for the hard working techie. When the wealth leaves the state is that really progress?
Vt has the same brain and cash drain. If you set up the system so that money and brains leave what are you left with? Less is not more
@Andy
A number of objective studies on the question of wealth drain from millionaires leaving California to avoid taxes has found... it is mostly a myth. California is the 5th largest economy in the world... and people (including the wealthy) can and do stay in California because they like the way the state is run and everything it has to offer.
So.. give a rest. I live in California, Silicon Valley to be specfic. You live in Vermont. Who do you think has a better handle on what is going in inside California??
Aren't these the liberal-leaning techies who frequently condemn the south for every possible social injustice? And yet when it suits their needs, they pack their bags and flee to low tax southern states.
As far as I'm concerned, people can shelter their incomes in any legal way they see fit. But don't move someplace where you are a poor fit and then complain about the politics, the schools or lack of services. Many comments here have done just that. High taxes are what pay for those things you moved away from. States such as CA believe in social services and tax in order to provide them.
Priorities are different in low tax states as are the life styles. So revel in the slower pace, the fact that you can look up and actually see the stars, or that it doesn't take 2 hours to go 10 miles.
I live in WV because it is rural, lacks a Starbucks on every other corner and the people are kind. Moving here means accepting that.
6
They move to Austin since that city considers itself a liberal enclave within a conservative state. They really do not change much in lifestyle or people they can interact from the Bay Area. In Texas, we take all kinds.
2
I laugh at these repeated tales of an "exodus" from California. Folks: we have 40million people here. If a few leave, they are soon replaced by new people. No state suits all of the diverse residents of OUR country. I love visiting many states, but I call California home. I do not bash other states-- why do people in others bash mine? Taxes are just part of our lifestyle that includes great weather; natural beauty of astonishing variety; wonderful local food, wine, and beer; an interesting meld of people from all over the world: a shared commitment to great public spaces, from trails to parks to libraries; culturally rich cities like SF and charming small towns ready to surprise each visitor. Why the piling on?
33
@karen
The only net migration into CA is illegal immigrants.
3
Good riddance! While these tech-bros were in SF they lived in their offices and Google buses with their headphones on, never venturing out to cultural aspects of SF that make it an interesting place to live. There still is amazing local artists, writers and musicians in this town and if you know where to look bohemian enclaves. I have been to Austin. The traffic is worse that SF. Good riddance I say!
12
Articles like these show why we desperately need to change the tax laws.
Funding someone's diet, exercise, or meditation does nothing for the good of the greater society.
An extra 10 or 20 percent off these character's incomes wouldn't affect them much, and would help fund libraries, roads, parks and transportation.
11
And, this tendency is exacerbated by Trump’s corporate tax reduction that essentially eliminated the deduction for state income and property taxes. Hopefully, these transplanted Bay Areans will at least bring some political energy with them to Texas.
3
Honestly I prefer to be poor, working and fulfilled than rich and playing video games and watching sports all day!
2
As people say in Texas, bless your heart on that one.
6
It’s trivial, but very illustrative: wanting to rent an entire screening of an incredibly popular movie showtime out for just you and your friends, thereby depriving a few hundred other people of the opportunity to enjoy the humble pleasures of a movie, just because you can.
Says a lot about character.
13
The main thought that came to my mind was not so much about how these individuals got wealthy or where they moved but the fact that the IRS has steadily lost staff over the years. The NYT just published an article about this on May 3rd which explained that the IRS has fewer auditors now than in 1953.
The tax laws need a real overhaul to eliminate all the loopholes and special treatments given to a select few and the IRS needs enough employees to ensure that people and corporations really do pay their fair share.
7
What would more IRS staff do here? These people are not evading US taxes. They just choose a little lifestyle so they can legally recognize gains in a location. People are not allowed to move?
3
@Michael Blazin
It’s about state taxes, not the feds.
1
Government of the people, but by the rich, and FOR the rich.
This will not end well.
9
I think these moves have more to do with Real Estate prices than taxes.
4
@Karyn Probably both factors.
Not one of these tech bros mentioned volunteering or donating some of their wealth. If they’re not going to give back by paying their fair share of taxes, it’s the least they could do.
24
@J. L. Lipp
What does paying their "fair share" of taxes mean? They should pay what YOU determine they pay? There is no mention of them doing anything illegal, which is what "fair share" is.
7
@J. L. Lipp what they do with their earned income is not your decision to make. The worked for years paying 50% taxes. Be happy with the scraps you get because you are not entitled to any scraps at all.
4
From the looks and brief description of his new daily routine in Austin, my millennial children would call McMullen a “tool”.
These stories enforce the stereotype of the millennial: self-centered and absorbed by technology.
Not all millennial's spend their days in bars watching basketball, playing video games, and eating Tacos.
19
@Brian Kramer Hey, leave tacos out of this!
4
None of these guys said they were taking career breaks forever. But speaking as someone who had a high-stress job in finance, I understand the burnout and taking the opportunity to recharge. I have taken a couple of career breaks and retired early, and no that doesn’t make me a lazy or bad person. I am an engaged citizen who has done lots of volunteer work, paid taxes, given to charity, and raised 2 wonderful beings. So let’s not judge these successful tech bros too harshly - they’re still young and making choices some are far too timid or status-conscious to make!
2
@Brian Kramer
'Greed. I'm curious to know what their actual skill set is, including social, and how diverse? They like the "one-hit-wonders" in old Top 40, combo of lucky and good once, then nostalgia and future sterility. What these gents gonna do when the cash runs dry?? Couple millions don't run that long no more.
1
I don't understand why the article and comments vilify these people. The headline implies they moved because of the taxes, but the article is clear that other factors motivated their decisions. They seem genuinely refreshed to get away from the SF's culture.
The city has an exorbitant cost of living because of housing shortages. If millionaires move out, the city would become more affordable for everyone else.
17
@Bill,
Taxes cannot be all of the answer. Texas has the 3rd highest property taxes in the nation and is close to having the highest sales tax, so it is more of a "wash" in taxes than most people realize. Housing costs in Austin are also very high, so it is about a great deal more than taxes.
As long as they vote blue and help turn Texas purple, they are welcome to move east!
11
@SW. As a native Texan and one who spent my college days in Austin, I can assure you that Austin has always been an anomaly in the State. Texas is red and always will be.
4
@SWLibrarian property and sales taxes are regressive and calling it a wash is naive and, from a tax standpoint, simply not true.
1
I commend their work and wealth acquirement skills. Moving to a low tax state is a no brainer if you have the means to do so. Only issue I have is that they tend to vote for luny politicians whom will move to raise taxes and implement policies similar to that of the taxation cesspools they moved away from.
10
Texas has dealt with the Austin enclave for decades. Austin gets to complain about the rest of the state, claim it is cooler, enjoy the lower taxes and cost of living, and have little impact on the rest of the state. We all just get along.
1
This is the same thing that many elderly people do when they retire. Move to Florida, Arizona or similar place to lessen their tax burden. The only difference is it took them 40 years to accumulate their wealth, instead of 5-10 like these tech brats. Yet we don't go around bashing the elderly for skipping out on paying taxes where they lived for 40 years?
What would serve better is not the skipping town, "retiring" and living a playboy lifestyle (1 month in japan, buying out a movie theatre for the latest pop culture hit)-- but a continued commitment to doing something productive or benefiting the community. How about working on bringing technology to more youth, fixing the housing issue in SF, or working in public sector to benefit the community. 100 hours playing video games is great for, about 100 hours.. then what?
9
So these millennialaires seem to be de-camping en masse from the Bay Area to Austin, where they seek some new zen.
In the process, they are turning Austin in to a mini Bay Area which they just left. Quickly rising housing prices coming their way!
(Pity the long-term Austin residents who can't afford their city anymore.)
23
That ship sailed in Austin a long time ago.
2
How many rich Wall St brokers and investment bankers live in NJ or Conn to avoid taxes? People move in and out of the Bay Area every day. Silicon Valley investors are no different than Wall St investors.
5
@David - Actually, the taxes in New Jersey are higher than New York! If you live outside of NYC, the max rate in NY is 8.8% vs. 9.3% in New Jersey.
3
You don’t avoid high taxes by going to NJ or CT. They are the only state in the union they can make New York look cheaper. They both have sky high property taxes and income tax burdens. Additionally, the cost of real estate is in sane across the entire tri-state area.
Middle class people from the entire tri-state area are fleeing in droves to lower tax states to the south and mountain west. Rich people go to the south and mountain west as well but get a bigger house.
In New Jersey, the typical two bedroom apartment just across the river from New York City cost more than $1 million. At least, in the kind of neighborhood where someone with enough cash flow would want to buy. You can sell that apartment and move to Texas for a five bedroom four bathroom house. You will still have enough money left over for many cars and boats.
3
@David How do you avoid taxes living in New Jersey?
2
My wife and I left the Bay Area when I retired from a fairly normal non-tech career at 58. It wasn't taxes that drove this move. We didn't even know Nevada lacked an income tax. It was simply to build a new life different from the one we'd had, in a small town located in the mountains and desert we love.
The Bay Area was a great place to work and in Palo Alto where we had lived there were excellent public schools that made it a good place to raise our son. But with work and parenting behind us the Bay Area's disadvantages loomed larger.
Yes, traffic, crowding and cost, but it was really more about the culture as tech's dominance grew steadily. I've always been more comfortable around under-achievers and began to tire of the (supposedly) uber smart two professional households that came to dominate. Frankly, their high opinion of themselves often wasn't warranted.
We now live in an area where the dominant culture is friendliness and modesty and where the small town ranching heritage typical of the inter-mountain west still has great influence. Few PhDs, lots of pick-up trucks. I don't fit in with the politics but I like everything else, from the four season climate to easy access to the outdoors to conversations that are just about commonplace things to the constant acknowledgment of each other with a wave, a nod of the head or a hello as we go about our days.
And we hope the Sierra Nevada mountains continue to prove a barrier to the Bay Area's relentless creep eastward.
70
@Terry
Congratulations on doing taking steps to live a sane life, connected to community, outdoors and neighbors (something forgotten in our modern world).
Care to enlighten us as to the area you have moved to?
Good luck,
3
Amen, @Terry! Well put. Our quality of life improved dramatically after leaving SF and relocating to the desert.
3
@Terry I'm glad it worked out for you and your wife.
I will say as a minority woman, there are areas of this country -- including probably near you (I've been to Nevada and also worked short-term in rural areas) -- that would either feel unsafe or unwelcoming to people like me or for that matter, anyone who sticks out from the American mainstream in nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
So people stay in urban/ suburban areas not necessarily because it's their natural preference but also for reasons of safety and familiarity. I happen to like urban areas and I also grew up around mountains/ forests (Seattle has both) but this is a topic my and my friends who aren't in the mainstream or have mixed-race children sometimes talk about. It is surprising to my friend who are in the mainstream -- i.e. ostensibly White, sometimes Christian, etc.
17
Time for the blue state tax and spend democrats to wake up. Soon there will be no one left for them to gauge. The same thing is happening in my home state of CT. No state is entitled to its residents. They compete for residents just like companies compete for workers and customers. Here's a crazy idea, actually incentivise people to stay in your state and everyone benefits.
"Oh the rich are so greedy." It's called being smart. And anyone making over $250k, paying 50%+ annual tax understands they are paying way more than their fair share.
25
When I lived in Paris, I met US retired expats pursuing their dreams of painting, music, writing etc., living in a place surrounded by beauty. One lady had even run away with the postman for one last hurrah on the Île Saint-Louis.
"The Avengers" in three days? Two college football games at once? Overseas location to Singapore?
Overall, millenials depress me deeply.
67
And they say the word “like” about three times a sentence.
8
@Bella Wilfer So what makes you think Paris is so much better than Singapore and painting/music is superior to watching movies/football games? Real snobbishness on its finest display
1
@Bella Wilfer,
Sounds a little eurocentric.
What, exactly, is wrong with Singapore?
3
The Times needs to do a story on the tens of thousands of people that "move" to low tax states. This idea that they actually spend more than half a year in Texas or Florida is more myth than actuality. I was a school teacher in NJ and many teachers buy a cheap condo in 55+ Florida community and live there only for three or four winter Winter months. This fake address stuff has to stop.
13
@Gerard Iannelli- how about saying that this high tax nonsense driven by out-of-control public spending and irresponsible government (e.g. in NY and NJ) has to stop? My wife and I regularly vote Democratic but are totally disilluisoned by the state of affairs here.
We intend to move down south to a low-tax state ourselves when we retire (in about 10 years). We will sell our million-dollar home on which we pay $25,000 a year in taxes (along with paying NJ's income tax). A similar home in Georgia or Texas will cost us approx. $7,000 to $8,000 in property taxes. Not to mention that our retirement income won't be taxed there, unlike in NJ or NY.
30
@Gerard Iannelli Sorry but it takes more than that. You have to vote there, register your car, etc. And some states like Mass. review credit card activity.
5
It is not that difficult as long as you check off the right boxes. These days you can get correspondence sent anywhere. If you get driver’s license, register to vote, have a home, and get your retirement portfolio addressed in low tax state, you are covered if you stay under the 180 day threshold. One drawback appears as you cannot claim resident/homestead status for property tax in high tax state. Many states have discounts for true residents. Qualifying for homestead status will save big bucks. Keeping property in high tax state as non-resident puts a bite on your wallet.
One other good deal in Texas is that sales tax is deductible. All states that do not have income tax enjoy this Federal tax provision. Unfortunately those deductions are part of the SALT cap. Paying property taxes in 2 states may not leave room.
“He said he ...said he briefly became a cryptocurrency millionaire before the crypto market crashed in early 2018.”
:smh:
4
Traitors! They ought to have to still pay taxes in the states that made them rich. Texas? Great state! No need for Los Angeles or Manhattan tax dodgers.
1
@Manhattan
What?!? Why? Taxes aren't based on that despite whatever you think "should" be. And you call them "traitors". Ludicrous.
1
good for them!
too much taxes in Calif. For what? what do they get for the highest tax in the hemisphere?
i decided to move to Fl. 30 yrs ago to avoid NYC and NYS theft of income taxes.
11
Who would live in Texas when they could live in California no matter what the taxes are?
36
People who are tired of paying the bulk of the tax burden to support the majority of citizens who pay little or nothing.
14
Smart people.
4
have you even been to TX? fine state with friendly people.
3
Paper millionaires. There were lots of those pre dot com bubble too.
I will gladly pay CA ‘s taxes in order to be able to live here. The people leaving will find out soon enough that a low tax state also means inadequate services.
36
@Dani Weber ummmm.....not. We recently left SF specifically due to the ridiculous taxes and fees that were not coupled with promised services. That California is falling apart is widely held knowledge. How's that gas tax working out? Garbage everywhere. Filthy streets and sidewalks. Ever been (or attempted) to DMV? That's just the beginning of the list. We now live in a no-tax state that manages to provide adequate services.
4
@Dani Weber what kind of services does california have that millionaires arent getting in texas?
1
So let me get this straight:
- Tech workers move to San Francisco and drive up the rents, forcing people to leave.
- They make tons of money but instead of giving back they keep all their money and flee.
- They then move to a different state and spend their time watching basketball and playing video games.
What a waste of space! And the greed and narcissism is astounding.
182
@JS27 As long as this 'I am only for myself' attitude that is not always friendly to the idea of the greater good of the society prevails, there will never be shortage of Trump club Republicans! I would love to hear their view of how 'business man' Trump played his 'sport' with the tax man as is evident from the recently published article on his tax returns. But you never know - once these young people pay off their college loans and realize their basic American dream, may be they will be more generous and less conservative socially! There is always that hope!
5
Couldn't agree more! And as someone who has lived in San Francisco for 20 years and has seen all of this unfold firsthand, you are spot on in your description.
2
We should all be wise to the Times by now. They publish these articles so that we, the overworked, over-taxed, clean-living proletariat, can rend our second-hand clothes and virtuously decry the folly of the other half. Last week we were tut-tutting over a handful of boomers who sold their houses in the suburbs to pay high rents in Manhattan. This week we are vivisecting a few millennials who moved to Austin to avoid high taxes.
No doubt next week our paper of record will conduct a survey on Central Park carriage horses who have retired to the lush pastures of upstate New York, and at least some among us will write in to condemn the privileged few who made it to the top, while the rank and file are still stuck eating Trader Joe oats in Midtown.
44
@CML - fair enough. we are getting triggered admittedly.
But enough about that, please see my article on page four of the times...
"Millennials Take Selfies In Front of Orphans Begging"
1
@CML
An astute view of the all encompassing media using psychological tactics to create a slave population. Oh, I am sooooo looking forward to seeing Anya refuse the Iron Throne.
Wouldn't It Be Nice World Without loopholes
4
Yes Texas doesn't have an income tax but property taxes have been rising. I love it here but the state has issues that are glossed over. Just Google all will see!!
7
I don’t understand the point of this article. Is the Times saying people shouldn’t get rich off of investments and then go live in low stress places? Feels like an advocacy piece for socialism to me.
9
Wow. While many in the world starve we have those that don’t pay the taxes they should. Put your education and minds to solving some of those problems.
12
@Kate
What taxes they "should"??
1
Rich or not, I’ll never live in a state that denies health care to poor women, executes innocent people and now wants to make it illegal to drive people to the polls.
139
@Mike Yeah, not only that, with these younger folks, I'm guessing they're not going to have children unless they plan to send them all to private school. The Texas public education system is not exactly stellar about teaching history and science truthfully -- not the fault of the teachers -- but politicians who let their religion and prejudice interfere with what is taught, what materials are used, etc. Also, there are some issues with special education down there that the feds are involved in. Albeit, it's a self-selected group but the Texan ex-pats I knew were glad to be out of there.
5
I’ll take “No Duh” for $100 Alex. You mean to tell me that when people are taxes into oblivion, they they they move to lower, or non-tax areas?
Today the NYT learned what the Laffer Curve is.
13
“Most of the people The Times spoke to were putting their new wealth to use, buying houses and planning vacations.”
Of course, because the idea of donating to charity or using the money for anything that could help others must be alien to these egotistic tax evaders.
21
There are many types of wealth, and the truly wealthy don’t move from San Francisco to Texas, even to save on their taxes. A few extra bucks in your pocket and then what have you got? You’re still in Texas...
100
Hmmm, TX or NYC? I'll take TX every time.
4
@h king chalk up another "win" for NYC.
9
Spot on comment! I tell my mother every year (who lives in Texas) that I would rather live in the Tenderloin neighborhood in San Francisco than move to Dallas. (if you're not familiar with San Francisco, the Tenderloin is where most of the heroin addicts are walking around the streets.)
4
What? Are you sure?
All I ever hear is that the founders of these start-ups are doing it because they have a passion to solve some problem most of us are unaware we even have.
"Did you know that if every pair of shoes Americans own was recycled, we'd be able to shoe every human and animal in the world? Did you know it would have over 90 trillion barrels of oil a week?"
And then...low and behold, they reach the apex of their goal...enabling the shoe'ing of the world, and they cash in and then out.
It's almost as if their stated goal of making the world a better place wasn't why they really pursued their passion. I would almost assume it was about just another high consumption conspicuously wealthy lifestyle.
Oh, and I bumped into that crowd at Harvard...but I was there because of my passion to build homes for every ex-coal miner in West Virginia.
13
The people who most need lower taxes, your postman, your teacher, your waiter can't flee higher taxes and expenses unless they can start anew. One of San Francisco's cable car drivers lives close to Sacramento. The time and expense of commuting is horrendous.
22
@Vickie
So why don't they move to lower tax places just like the people in this article did? They are choosing to stay in SF.
1
The real migration is middle class families moving to Texas. If you are a teacher, postman, police officer, etc., we have plenty of good jobs, you will likely buy your home and your kids have a good choice of schools to select. While we accept everybody, California can keep its millionaires if it really needs them. No big deal on that one.
2
They flee to Texas with high taxes on purchases and high property taxes - and state property with oil income. Welcome, folks. My forefathers figured it out almost two centuries ago when the original government made the mistake of inviting them to move here - in the days before air conditioning.
@Post motherhood I neglected to mention that we, the descendants of those wily immigrants, always move out of Texas for at least a decade after college to some fabulous hip spot - but we come back because this is a great place to rear children.
3
@Post motherhood
That’s funny, my mom and dad met in El Paso and while dad had good prospects for work as an engineer in Texas, he didn’t want to start the family there. “Too flat, too dry, and I’m not just talking about the landscape...The future is California”, he said. And, at 87, he recently reconfirmed his feelings at his birthday party when he joked, “Be thankful for the wisdom of your old dad. You all could have ended up as Texans.”
3
I know what it feels like.
Been there and done that.
I am no tech millionaire but a long time oil patch worker.
Now 70, after Caltech education, I joined Getty in Los Angeles late 70's when the pilot patch was going thru boom times - our dot com exuberance.
Later, Getty transferred me to Kuwait. During annual vacations - we saw what awaited us if we came back to California.
Our cracker box house in Ventura - we could never afford to repurchase. The commute to LA was worse and of course, despite Prop 13 - taxes were going up.
That nightmare helped us decide to sell everything in California.
After several years overseas in many countries, we sleep well not thinking we are in stressful California.
As we say in Texas "I wasn't born in Texas, but got here as fast as I could."
My only hope is these newest transplants leave their la la land politics at our borders and contribute to making Texas great.
14
@Neil Many others feel precisely the way you do. However, they remain silent because they are ostracized for not supporting a Democratic Socialist position.
5
@Neil
A good friend served as corporate counsel to one of the last oil companies headquartered here. When the company decided to move to Texas, she refused to follow despite promised bonuses totaling more than many make in a year. A Northern European immigrant who first landed in Texas as an au pair, she said no amount of money could convince her to return, especially because of its increasingly regressive politics and religious extremism.
So, don’t worry; the feeling is mutual among those of us who know and understand the cavernous differences between the two states.
8
As a person who's worked for 35 years and is hoping to take Social Security in the next two years--and who has read story after story berating Boomers for being selfish sociopaths-- I found myself wondering if these millennials see the irony in haranguing folks my age for wanting to retire from the workforce and in their minds, leech off younger generations, while in essence doing the same thing, with far more means than me. I doubt I've totalled $3M over my entire working life sans foosball tables.
13
Newly arrived Tech Bros in Austin, doing their best to keep Austin un-Weird. Thanks Bros, you've done us all a big favor by flushing out all the old hippies. Keep on, geekin' on!
6
How nice for these highly educated, healthy, and most likely, hard working, people (because that's what we all are regardless of incomes) for this flexibility due to their wealth. I think about Texas' high maternal death rate during childbirth amongst poor women of color. It is the one of the highest of western industrialized countries. Low taxes vs. minimal health care and economic inequality: is there no compromise?
16
@Di Arn
Do you have any proof about a link between low taxes and maternal death rates or is this something that liberals tell themselves to make them feel better about being fleeced by their municipalities and states? According to a USA today survey Texas is not in the bottom five states for maternal deaths although New Jersey, no stranger to high taxes, makes this dubious list. Does that mean that New Jersey’s maternal death rate is among “one of the highest of western industrialized countries”?
2
@Di Arn — Not to mention Texas’ well-known criminal INjustice system. Remember when BushJr refused to allow or pay for DNA exams for 113 Death Row inmates. 113! That is inhumane. All were subsequently executed.
Ive lived there; it’s a pit for anyone who cares about social justice, racial equity or fairness.
Great roads, though. (Snark)
1
California made them rich, time to give something back to California.
38
@Joe
they gave every year they lived there ...all any state can ask . all these articles in the past few years re: Rust Belt communities in crisis got multi responses in this same side of the screen " just move "
Can't these folks do the same ?
6
@Joe -- California didn't 'make' them rich, they made California wealthy by the taxes they paid
12
@Joe
They did so by leaving
Earthquake and potable water risks alone are more than enough justification to leave CA. NH is so much a better place to live!
4
Yes, because the weather in NH is so much better than CA. Not!
2
"Some declined to speak on the record, citing concerns that talking frankly about their finances would hurt their chances with future tech employers, or make them audit targets."
Not to mention expose themselves as self-involved jerks who don’t care to give back to the local culture that helped them get wealthy. Where have we heard that before?
34
Perhaps high tax states should wake up and smell the reality.
Driving away wealthy and/or productive citizens ain't working out for NY or CT or CA.
It is mighty expensive to live in those places.
And, gotta pay an extra big tax check for the privilege?
Sunny southern states are looking good to many.
14
@Joe Yoh An economist would say the reason CA, NY and CT are expensive and southern states are cheap is that those states are perceived as more desirable than the southern states. There are more, higher paying jobs in CA, NY and CT than in AL, MS, or TN, etc. The big question is why the southern states persist in staying poor. The vote republican year after year and stay poorer than the states that vote democratic year after year. Even TX with its vast oil wealth ranks 23 in average income, while CA, NY and CT are 10, 16, and 6 on average income. It is true that many seniors bail out to states with lower taxes after retirement, but the high paying jobs just aren't there in places like FL (39th). Is it just that schools are really bad in the southern states (they are not that great in NY), or is something else about the way the states are governed?
16
@Joe Yoh
Being African American, the "sunny southern states" are never going to look good to me. My people fled them over 100 years ago. Ain't going back.
31
@Maloyo56 - But a surprising number of middle-class blacks have moved to the south in the past 20 years. This is what has made cities like Atlanta.
1
The vast majority of new generation business founders “Got Rich Off” the same model that has been being used at least since the 19th century — making fortunes off “labor cost displacement” and being ‘creatively destructive’ in finding new and better way to hide and dump ‘negative externality costs’ on others.
34
No surprise. For years, New Yorkers have been moving to Florida to retire. That's in part because of the favorable taxes there.
11
People are smart to organize their lives to minimize taxes owed. The Democratic candidates for president have released their taxes and all paid the minimum they owed. Even candidates who have called for a 70 percent marginal tax rate take every possible deduction and only pay 25 percent in taxes. You would think they would want to set the right example and pay 70 percent, but no. Shows how much people value government services that worldwide people try to minimize taxes.
11
That's not how taxes work, you can't simply "donate" more money to the government. You can not take as many deductions sure but the amount of money given to the government wouldn't come anywhere near 70 percent.
6
@Rudi Weinberg
Yes, you can. Just carry forward your overpayments indefinitely. And while you are at it, make the US Treasury the sole beneficiary of your estate. I have a wealthy colleague who doing just that.
4
@Rick Using your logic, conservatives who detest federal spending would set a good example by demanding that no government funds go to their congressional districts.
2
Did not get the sense that taxes were the top motivator for these guys, but rather they needed to get away from tech culture and its 24/7 lifestyle.
I made a similar move 20 years ago from a big west coast city to the south—and not for tax reasons but for overall cost of living. I would have never done this if id had children in schools, because the schools down here are substandard.
This move made me more financially solvent (no longer hemorrhaging money) but I do have regrets. I miss the people and the cultural offerings and public transit. Nashvillle is a fine city in a dreadful state. Our legislators are working hard to drag us back to 1840. Low tax = no services, but the know-nothing, science-hating mentality is the hardest thing of all.
My kids live in NY and they won’t move here and I’m not encouraging it because they need to educate their kids in a state that doesn’t believe that public education needs to be destroyed.
87
@MaryC
You can't find cultural offerings in Nashville?! Perhaps you should have said you can't find 'big west coast city' cultural offerings that are to your tastes.
You are a prime example of why transplants cause us locals so much heartburn. You relish the lower cost of living but continue to expect what you left behind.
You wanted to stop hemorrhaging money. Well, what do you think was funding the public transport, services and schools that you miss?
4
I guess that they listened to the experts about how to reduce their taxes. Every year around tax time, I hear or read information about how to legally reduce the amount that I will pay as taxes. But I have never heard of any of those giving this advice being prosecuted for any criminal wrongdoing or for advising taxpayers to do something illegal. Therefore, I guess that it’s OK to plan and act properly so that you can pay less.
9
@Richard Winchester Well said. So much resentment on this thread. While I can't account for everyone in the industry, my personal experience of the tech community is of a highly conscious bunch seeking to simultaneously do right by their community and families. They're incredibly hard workers, often incredibly stressed out, and just seeking an exit from an often unsustainable pace. Tech workers are not Enron.
7
@Richard Winchester - It's not taxes themselves but how our tax money is spent. Roads, bridges, etc., OK, but giving my hard earned money to layabouts and illegal immigrants is not OK. If you feed them they will come.
1
If it is not illegal, then you do not face prosecution. Moving to another state is not illegal. These people are not buying a shack in the Panhandle, and telling their broker to register their shares in TX. They are likely in the lock up period. Taking time to check off the TX boxes and then sell shares after lock up ends. Nothing illegal here.
1
Folks who move from state to state within the U.S. should be aware that family law, which governs their outcomes after a divorce or custody/child support lawsuit, is completely different from state to state. California offers lifetime alimony jurisdiction and unlimited child support revenue by formula. Texas generally offers no alimony to a plaintiff, and child support is capped at about $20,000 per year for one child. Nevada defaults to 50/50 shared parenting and the child support cap is even lower. The same words, e.g., "divorce", are used in these different states, but they're referring to more or less unrelated systems of law.
10
Texas is a community property state. Couples split everything down the middle. That is why alimony is not a big thing here. Coupled with 40 per cent plus divorce rate, it is also why we have a lot of rich divorcées.
1
@Michael Blazin California is also a community property state, with, absent a prenuptial agreement (itself possibly subject to legal challenges), 50/50 property division for anything acquired during the marriage. That a California divorce lawsuit can lead to a lifetime of alimony following the 50/50 property division while a Texas divorce ends with the 50/50 division shows how vast is the difference in the value of a divorce lawsuit when moving from state to state.
Massachusetts is poised to impose a so-called “millionaires tax”, thus adding to its onerous tax burden. Next step, a graduated income tax. And thus, like neighboring Connecticut, the exodus will continue. MA is a state of roughly 6 million residents, with a $42 Billion annual state budget, and massive tax free state pension and gold plated health care liabilities for the protected “public employee” class. Not sustainable.
33
@John Ramey
yep. One of the reasons we left Massachusetts for Virginia, (along with weather and cost of living). We get amazingly more for our money in Richmond compared to Boston, and give up nothing in city life compared to the South End.
7
@John Ramey And yet, the Massachusetts economy is flourishing. So, it's not all about taxes.
13
I love Richmond, the Fan especially... but Richmond ain't Boston. I wish it were true.
11
Back in Horatio Alger days making it from rags to riches was considered heroic and inspiring. Today, apparently it is regarded as degeneration and the first step to demonic possession. Just imagine people making a few million and then moving to where that money will buy more. Tsk, tsk!
22
While I am not usually impressed by the values and choices many millenials make, I applaud those taking their wealth and income to lower tax states.
High tax state politicians have for decades had the support and subsidy of the federal tax code which effectively paid 25% - 35% of the state income taxes they levied. That has spurred massive spending by those state politicians. Much of that spending has been corrupt or wasteful or extravagant. Even when the state spending is efficient and honest and for important services, there is no just reason why the people of other states should pay for those services delivered to the residents of the taxing state.
As example, look at the wide variation in per student public school spending per state (even compare just instruction expense to ignore capital expenditure on expensive buildings). New York spends about TWICE as much as most other states. Does it have twice as good public school education results?
Something needs to be done to curb wasteful or corrupt or extravagant state spending. High income people moving out of high tax states will have a beneficial effect. Ending the incentive for higher tax states that federal tax deduction provides will accelerate the exodus of high income people from high tax states.
19
@Errol I wonder why people like you, who applaud the removal of SALT deductions, do not also argue for a significant Estate Tax.
SALT deductions protect those who live in high tax states from "double taxation," since the money given to a State as State taxes isn't really income to be taxed by the Feds.
If it is income, then we should also have high Estate Taxes, since that money is certainly less a "double tax" than the state money. The money transferred to an Heir via an Estate was taxed on the original Earner (sometimes, not in many cases like capital gains) but is certainly "new income" to the next generation.
11
When many of the hugely profitable tech corporations in California do not pay Federal Income taxes, the state suffers because the federal govt cannot help maintaining and improving the massive infrastructure that is needed to support those companies and all of it that comes with it. The state has to raise its own taxes to make up for it. Why do tech companies not move to lower tax states in droves? Because the infrastructure is not sufficient. And when they finally will, those places will have to raise taxes as well or reduce service to the less affluent, something that has been happening in.... Texas.
7
@Ben
I do support high estate taxes. I oppose deductions for donations to so-called charities (many non-profits are not really "charity", don't really focus on those of very limited means).
I think your double taxation argument is invalid. Taxation of corporate dividends is double taxation. Taxation of income that is spent on state/local taxes is not. Consider, many state/local government services could be performed by private companies. If they were, then the payments to those companies would not normally be deductible (I am not arguing for or against privatization....I am just illustrating relative to your double taxation argument).
4
"Several had made vanity purchases, such as Teslas."
What a peculiar sentence. Would you say "Several had made vanity purchases, such as Audis"? The price range is pretty similar.
38
@Enid
That struck me as odd also as my spouse and I are considering a Tesla and we usually buy used cars and drive them for over 10 years. Purchase criteria are environmental impact and safety.
I hope these newly minted millionaires take the time to personally thank their Uber driver, who makes $9.50 and hour.
73
Why? These people did intellectual work and were smart to get in early and get options. The Uber driver didn’t. They deserve every penny. The Uber driver deserves his 9.50 or whatever he agrees to work for. Let the Uber driver get a job in a tech start up and take his chances. Or get the education necessary to do so. Come on, man.
40
@DRS Not everyone can be a coder. Should that doom them to a life of poverty?
11
Typical liberal false equivalency. None of the drivers, to my knowledge, put in years of long days using the high priced college education they’d EARNED to build a company from the ground up. No, the drivers joined late in the game and failed at their attempted extortion yesterday.
8
Everyone company and person of means should evacuate these high tax areas. We have a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to pay the lowest amount of tax possible.
9
@Simon taxes are the foundation of our social contract to pool our wealth periodically for the greater good of society with decisions made on how to allocate the resources by elected representatives. I gladly pay taxes assessed and even though we have no state income tax Washington State has significant levies for all sorts of governmental purposes. Fine with me, glad to pay it. Tax complainers like yourself are the ones who lack morality and ethics.
4
If they're retired and living off investments they're already paying less in taxes since dividend and and capital gains are taxed at much lower rates than regular income.
26
There’s something fundamentally wrong with an economic system that provides outsized rewards to “platform” designers who create applications in which the only real value is to ease access to workers whose labor is the real value proposition to the customer. Think about this — Uber and Lyft drivers do almost all the work and bear virtually all the expense (buying, insuring and maintaining their vehicles, and driving the customers), while the platform owners (designers and shareholders) receive the bulk of the revenue.
And as if all this weren’t bad enough, we have an administration in DC that then accepts the argument that these drivers shouldn’t even be treated as employees — and so aren’t entitled to the meager benefits and protections that our government hasn’t yet taken away from employees!
It’s little wonder then that people are so despairing of the status quo that they’re willing to consider any alternative — a major factor in the election of Trump, 30% of whose voters (according to exit polls) thought was unfit to be president.
152
@Cinclow20 Excellent assessment of a terrible situation. Workers, unite. Support other workers.
32
They were part of building a better mousetrap and so, investors beat a path to their proverbial doors. Working smarter often pays better than working harder.
18
@From Where I Sit When all the "smart" people have made all their profits off the work of the not so smart people who are burdened with huge health care bills and other costs of living, whom will the "smart" people have left to exploit? Maybe the "smart" people will start fighting each other in a new Game of Thrones? None of the people in this article sounds like a Bill Gates in the making.
28
It should be noted that one doesn’t have to be a tech millionaire in order to retire early. It’s a matter of embracing frugality and determining that have a high savings rate. I know of several people who have retired early on modest income’s. It takes focus determination and a little bit of luck.
Never discount the element of luck. It’s easy to confuse luck with smarts.
63
Wow, I'm disgusted by what I read here. Young, healthy and wealthy people who decide to live only for themself by depriving society of taxes they rightly should pay.
679
“... Depriving society of the taxes they should rightly pay.” This comment reads like it was written by someone who never worked hard to earn anything for themselves.
Society does not ‘have a right’ to his tax dollars - or mine or yours for that matter. The entire idea that the government, society or the collective has a right to the fruits of an individuals labor - or even just good fortune is offensive. This country was founded in large part by people looking to escape oppressive taxation and this guy seems no different. I’m pretty sure there was a big party in Boston a couple hundred years ago that had to do with tea and taxes, if I remember correctly. If you want to be critical of this guy for protecting his wealth, I hope you are first in line with your checkbook to fulfill your April 15 obligations.
137
Sorry Mole Hill,
This country was not founded by people fleeing taxation.
They were fleeing taxation without representation
Did they forget to teach you that in school?
There's a reason wealth is created in California, and not in 45 other states,
Those Uber & Lyft companies were grown while these individuals were living in, and working in California.
Not Texas. Not Utah. Not Montana.
393
@Beezelbulby They also taught me that the government that governs least governs best. Did they forget that part of the lesson in your schools? There was also a bunch of stuff about liberty vs. death, not being treaded upon, and rugged individualism.
One can but applaud the rationality of these people who go where the money is, both to make it in the first place and to keep it once made.
38
All our taxes are higher, all our public services are lower, when the wealthy don’t pay their taxes.
868
@Skutch
I don’t understand the implicit derision. These folks aren’t tax cheats. They won the tech lotto, made enough money they could functionally retire to places with lower costs of living, and did so.
I strongly believe that income inequality poses a significant danger to democracy. But I also believe that problem stems primarily from generational wealth transfers, not these “one off’ millionaires who are aberrations compared to the far greater number of folks who work hard for a tech startup that goes belly-up.
I’m no libertarian and certainly no Republican. I am no believer in crony capitalism or tax welfare for the 1%. But I do believe that if you are lucky enough to find a good entrepreneurial employment situation and it pays off, there is nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of your risk. There is an important distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance that people need to accept before branding folks scofflaws or societal miscreants. If you don’t like the current tax laws, change them. But generically attacking the wealthy for not paying taxes smacks of sour grapes, not nuanced public policy.
475
No, this is wrong. Pay the taxes where the money was earned. I bet California law changes in response to this. And if it does, good.
79
Well, since Lyft has cumulatively lost well over a billion dollars, they have not earned any profit anywhere. Someone gave them a peace of paper 5 years ago, it was worthless until 2 weeks ago and then it suddenly became valuable. California does not have any claim.
28
So these techies help fuel affordable housing crises which mainly impact blue collar working people and the lower middle class families in California then up and move to avoid a large tax bill to the very state that helped build their wealth, then wind up creating affordable housing crisis in cities like Austin.
The only way to stop this is to get rid of realtors and the real estate lobby and consider putting a cap on housing costs based on sq footage.
52
The fact that they also complain about the “tech bubble” culture that results from the concentration of startups in places like San Francisco is similarly frustrating. They don’t seem to recognize that their presence is what pushes residents out of formerly diverse neighborhoods and creates the monoculture of Silicon Valley.
It is frustrating to me that between these high-earning employees and their employers, none have yet taken any form of responsibility for the housing crisis they have shaped. Moving away to avoid state taxes that could hopefully benefit those working to solve such crises is just further evidence of greed and self-serving efforts to avoid responsibility and guilt.
23
@Issy
You blame the techies for creating the affordable housing crisis in California, but give them no credit for relieving it there when they leave. That's not logical.
7
@Concerned Reader Like the ISIS members that our government eliminates, there are plenty more to take their place.
1
Are none of these beyond lucky individuals engaged with helping others in the community who served their country in uniform, pave our roads, dig ditches or teach school? The article portrays them as aimless, greedy and bored.
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@Ed
I think most people in uniform would settle for tech workers not boycotting government contracts their company wants to sign up for that will help keep them from getting killed.
2
Making all that money at an early age sure is stressful!
Welcome to the millennial generation....
5
All income should be taxed as ordinary income. Lower rates for “investors” hurts the whole country as we are starving the treasury for no reason. In addition these guys should not be able to put their pre IPO stock into Roth IRAs. The US has a revenue problem and lower taxes paid by investors is one of the reasons we don’t have healthcare for all and modern infrastructure.
65
@Deirdre
It is easy to make incorrect conclusions by looking at outliers, as this case is.
Investment income is taxed at a lower rate for the following reasons:
1. Whereas earned labor income is paid 99.9% of the time, investment income is at risk. Over 80% of startups fail. UBER and Lyft are extreme outliers in terms of going public for many billions.
2. The tax on investment income is unlimited, but the deduction on investment losses is limited.
3. Investment income is taxed on the nominal gain, rather than the inflation-adjusted gain.
14
@Deirdre
The US does not have a revenue problem. It has a spending problem.
8
Lo yet another cause of the housing, gentrification, and affordability crisis that has hefted its burden on local Austinites who struggle to understand what has happened to the culture of our city.
We’re a far cry from the sleepy college town of twenty years ago, and the city is lagging in responding to its influx of new residents, who, from a native’s perspective, seem to only want to consume everything the city can offer them without giving anything back.
66
I truly wish the New York Times would stop portraying Texas as a low tax state. We aren't. Our property taxes are so high that they lead to the dislocation of entire communities. That's something! I know state employees, not a rich class by any means, who pay $15,000 per year in property taxes on homes they've owned for years. If you are working and living in Austin, depending on your living situation, you could easily be paying an equivalent to ten to twenty percent of you income in property taxes, either directly or indirectly through rents.
125
California transfers have been paying $15-$30k per year on property taxes and double that in state income taxes as well. So getting rid of state income taxes is a bargain and they don’t mind paying property taxes if the schools are good and the location desirable.
Here in NJ we pay $34k per year in my household for property and state income taxes. That is the price we pay for good schools and to keep the salaries we have.
6
If you can pay such obscenely high taxes, you have presumably achieved some measure of professional success, likely at the cost of at least four years and six figure college education. The government employees who feed at the trough of public service should not be riding on your coattails. You do not owe pothole fillers $50,000 salaries or cops six figure incomes or teachers million dollar pensions.
5
@From Where I Sit
Most teachers bore "the cost of at least four years and six figure college education" -- you're obviously not a teacher and don't value teachers' work as "professional success." Are cops not professionals? So what do you think should be a teacher's or a cop's salary? For that matter, what do you allow a pothole-filler's work to be worth?
13
From the article; 1) People prefer lower taxes to higher taxes, 2) millennials like to occupy their time with video games, 3) a few financially lucky millennials, as presented, have aimless, unproductive lives post tech capital gains jackpot, 4) Texas is a nice place to live, 5) journalists can add validity to their point of view with the selection of a confirming study. Conclusion, humans are both economically rational and pleasure seeking creatures. Other conclusion, California is a high tax state and the cost/benefits of those taxes are different for different people. Taxation has consequences.
250
People are products of their environment. By condoning if not encouraging this behavior, how are we ever going to get a healthy society, fair economy, or take care of the environment.
The laissez-faire attitude towards greed that is part and parcel of American style Capitalism in the 21st century is truly an unprecedented threat to the planet and to basic notions of justice.
13
@Byron Logic is a wonderful tool isn't it. So many people here try to deny it...
5
I thought California had a housing shortage. Won't these moves out of the state provide some relief?
13
@Donna Gray It's not just a shortage of physical units, it's the price of them. And it's unlikely to provide any relief because a) the spaces they occupied and vacated cost more than those who are in crisis can afford and b) there are orders of magnitude more people who can't afford what's available then there are tech millionaires leaving the state.
4
This is a free country and people can live wherever they desire. No one owes income tax to a state on personal income that hasn't been earned yet. Tax the rich (and every other productive stratum of society) beyond what's equitable, and they can vote with their feet. Nothing wrong with that.
39
Those high SF/CA taxes supported the high density urban city that enabled their businesses to grow and thrive.
44
@john - And those businesses will continue to be taxed on their earnings in those states, which is appropriate and fair. I'm not even sure what you're suggesting as an alternative. That people be legally barred from relocating to a different state? That such people pay income tax to two states?? That people stop acting rationally in their long-term economic interests?
13
@john
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with Kevin?!?
1
This article is a sign of the times. Fortunate people in a few cities with booming economies and real estate markets are making the bulk of the money, and then — along with rich retirees — taking their wealth to low tax states with cheaper real estate. Can’t blame them, really. The politicians in high-tax states simply can’t bring themselves to lower taxes, perhaps fearing a race to the bottom.
The federal government could act, however. Congress should raise taxes on higher incomes, though not to the extreme levels pushed by Warren and Sanders. But we could raise rates a bit and add new brackets, such as for income over $1 million a year. This would bring in badly needed revenues from these hard-working but lucky millennials, from absurdly-paid CEOs, and from the wizards of high finance.
23
Why do you consider the millennials “lucky”? It seems to me that at times we as an older generation (me included) don’t give millennials credit. Creating the programs these companies use are extremely specialized. They worked hard, helped create something and moved on. Why do we judge them but don’t judge older people that inherited their money or made it when it was much easier to be successful? It’s something many of us do and was I hoping commenting to you might start people thinking differently about the younger generation.
6
@Jen Thank you for bringing inheritance into the conversation. These people earned their wealth, unlike a lot of children born with silver spoons and inherited monies are nearly free of all taxes.
4
And Austin has become Silicone Valley (pun fully intended) Southwest with a cost of living that rivals the Bay Area, infrastructure that can't handle the huge population growth and guess what, lots and lots of tech bros droning about their start ups. While Texas may not have an income tax, the property taxes that make up the lost revenue are high. There's also the fact that everyone who moves here desperately tries to ignore that no matter how hip and progressive Austin appears to be, it's still surrounded by a very conservative state. I describe it as a tiny blue spot surrounded by a whole lotta crazy red.
216
@Melvis Velour
I have heard it called "a blueberry in a bowl of tomato soup". I used to love visiting Austin, but that was way back when the techies I knew there were looking to move to the Bay Area.
Columbus seems like it could be a greatly watered-down version of the same political phenomenon, with much less weirdness, far fewer techies, and only one free bus route.
One might say this happens in part because those that live in a state capital will naturally want that state capital to collect more money and do more with it - and the latter often means spend it specifically on them.
6
@Alan
AS much as you may wish it might happen, I think it's very doubtful that Columbus Ohio will become the next hip place to live.
5
Austin has a ginormous state university in the city limits. State government is not really a major employer in TX. Our legislators only meet 120 days every 2 years. Income taxes at any level are unconstitutional, not just not enacted. It is not a recipe for runaway spending. Austin basically allows people that think themselves very cool to associate with people that also think they are cool. It is a big state. We have all kinds of people with weird ideas.
4
It's not all about taxes, or even mostly about taxes. These folk aren't moving to Dallas, Houston, San Antonio or El Paso, many of which have lower property taxes than Austin. They're moving to Austin. Because they want to live in Austin. The real story might be how Austin natives are leaving to flee these California transplants.
199
@J lawrence
It's amazing that you know more than the writer of the article who actually talked to the people about why they move
3
@J lawrence
Not a native, but have been here 20 years. My wife and I have been ready to leave Austin (and TX) for several years, but just haven't found the right opportunity yet.
Needless to say, Austin is not the awesome little town I fell in love with in the 90s.
7
@J lawrence
Amen!
5
While reducing taxes was once described by a Supreme Court justice as a "duty" living a life of self indulgence is not. Others, I hope are using the intelligence and creativity that earned them wealth to engage in charitable and political activity which will benefit the common good.
30
This is very uninteresting and these people are uninteresting. People get lucky all the time...the question is what meaning will they extract from the rest of their lives.
161
@Kyle lucky? maybe a bit. My guess these folks put in a lot of 80+ hour weeks. That's why they burnt out, and left, taxes being part of it, but not all of it. And why is it that California needs to have such an outlier tax rate that it makes successful people want to leave?
16
@bx I lived in silicon valley and worked those hours and did lots of high impact work...most people do...these people just happened to be in the right place...it's survivorship bias to think otherwise. Btw most people stay in California.
33
@bx
They got lucky because the stock took off. As the article says, their salaries were modest.
11
I can't blame them for leaving a high tax state after basically getting lucky. People with lots of money and just average people are leaving my home state of Connecticut because the taxes are getting out of hand and people don't want to support retired state workers collecting pensions most could only dream about.
183
@Jack “I don’t want to support state workers collecting pensions I could only dream about”. State workers gave up the chance at much bigger earning for thirty years for a secure retirement, everyone is not an entrepreneurial type, but we certainly need teachers, police, firemen etc., sorry but I find criticizing them abhorrent.
29
@Ted Agree, that comment is abhorrent. But we do read several such in the Comments section of any Times article having to do with income & personal economics. Wonder if Brian McM and his tech-Lucky
White Millenial bro’s are reading the comments & thinking about how they come off here. Ironically, McM grew up in SLO with its excellent PUBLICLY FUNDED public schools.
12
@Ted,
The salaries were below market 45 years ago, not now. When Connecticut allowed collective bargaining for wages and benefits the salaries exploded. Many current retires paid 2 percent towards their pension and nothing for healthcare. They are now retired collecting pensions with a guaranteed minimum COLA of 2.5 percent regardless of actual inflation.
7
All self-indulgence, and not a hint of giving back to the society that made them wealthy. Why am I not surprised?
569
They lucked out and earned a pay grade above their level of competence. Now they struggle to find work that compensates them for a lifestyle they've grown accustomed to
21
Society didn’t make them wealthy. They made themselves wealthy in the context of society. They don’t owe California another dime.
17
@DRS
The ancient Romans thanked the god of fortune when they “lucked out” in life.
Today’s lucky aren’t happy unless they are making the lives of their employees miserable.
If you don’t care about others or your country, society, or culture, you don’t owe them a dime.
Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society.
These people are not civilized.
It’s ruining the country.
18