China's rise as economic and political power was piggy backed by Western innovation, technology and even big western companies that tolerated Chinese state sponsored hacking into US companies and backing of Chinese companies as a front of Chinese Govt.
US needs to take decisive measures to stop China to steal western/American technology and decouple American economy from China.
China needs to develop a society and education system that would help original thinking and innovation than legalize state sponsored stealing of western technology and spread its Communist imperialism globally. In short, China need to reform its autocratic regime to develop a more open democratic society in the long run.
1
The bully in the China shop. You break it you own it.
1
Trump thrives on conflict. Closing a deal with China dissolves a major conflict, which leaves Trump unsettled. He's going to milk this negotiation as long as he can.
25% of 0 = 0. Trump lives in a fantasy/real estate universe with margins of 1/3. the rest of the globalized world economy with JIT mfg. lives in a world where a 1/4 tariff on goods means no sale. full stop. as in it's already happening......
if negotiating a better trade deal causes the world economy to collapse, doesn't that prove we were too dependent on China?
@Bob
China is 20% of the world’s population. Restricting trade with China would be like restricting trade with the 20% of Americans who live west of Denver. That would devastate the US economy, but that does not mean that we are too dependent on the folks west of Denver.
China is beating Trump at his own game. Lie, deflect, disguise. Agree and then renege. Frustrate the other side to exhaustion and refuse to concede when you are wrong.
A SAD pathetic showing of the lack of negotiating skill by Trump. Watch him cave in the end.
3
Great comment
Funny how this desultory belligerent POTUS has made China the stable reliable trade partner to the rest of the world.
3
Increasing tariffs is not the problem. Trump's impetuous impulsive threat is the problem. He could have without much hullabaloo announced a slow increase in tariffs over a period of a year to allow companies to adjust to the change gradually. If we have had tariffs for years what is another year? The man is too unstable to be controlling such delicate important matters...
Trump just loves making deals. He typically uses intimidation and threats of economic sanctions, financial loss, or loss of financial opportunity to bully his adversaries. It's Trump's personal version of "America First" and his characteristic "all options on the table" threat. Whether it's the Chinese, the Venezuelans, the Canadians, the Mexicans, the Palestinians, the Germans, the North Koreans, or the City of New York, the Trump ego must dominate. There is little, if any, concern for the side effects on the American public.
2
let's look at macro-economics:
Cheap goods undercut union wages. Formerly union cities collapse with white flight and empty housing stock.
All you care about is spending extra money for that fifth TV.
1
The problem facing China is how to negotiate with a US administration that is unpredictable; hence cannot be trusted.
After US withdrew from Iran Nuclear Agreement, not too many countries in the world consider the US signature on any agreement to be guarantor of anything. North Korea is already conducting missile tests in connection with its nuclear program, as if Mr. Trump's commitments, made to Kim Jong-un in their recent meetings, have been just empty, worthless, promises.
Even the ragtag Taliban, while negotiating a "peace treaty" with the US, have not stopped their attacks on Afghan and US forces. In fact they have significantly increased their attacks. They seem to believe that whatever the negotiations outcome will be, it is meant to restrict them, not the US. So, they behave as if there is no on-going negotiation or there will be no peace treaty.
The Chinese are witnessing that the US has imposed steel tariffs on Canada and Mexico, in direct violation of the terms of NAFTA2, the trade agreement reached among the three countries not too long ago. Consequently, they insist on attaching conditions to the US-China trade agreement that would ensure full US adherence to the agreement.
They want to have arbitration by an independent body as the mechanism for ruling on trade disputes. And they want to make sure if the US does not respect the arbitrator's verdict, US will receive huge financial penalties. And, of course, the US does not want any part of that.
1
The evidence suggests that the Chinese Communist Party led by Xi is playing a game of 'payback' for a long history of suffering under "unequal treaties" with the West dating back to 1842's Treaty of Nanjing.
Xi has a keen appreciation for the hardships, crimes against humanity and immoral cruelties imposed by foreigners, especially the Brits and Japanese, on China. China had the higher morality then but not now.
2
I understand that resentment; it's expected. China was wronged, severely abused and damaged. Antipathy is a natural response. Payback.
does anyone have a plan as to countering China's military buildup that they're using our money to finance it. Then they threaten our allies. they need us.
"Mr. Liu is a close adviser and confidant of President Xi Jinping, China’s top leader, and his participation could improve the chances of striking a deal."
On the other hand, his presence could allow the Chinese to tell Donnie to go pound sand, and make sure he understands that the message comes from one of the top guys (and is not a mere translation error).
I think that the Chinese will not accept being pushed around, especially by an ignoramus.
1
There is no deal if Trump does not back down. China is not Canada or Mexico. She has her own political consideration, which makes any hint of concession to the US unacceptable.
Unfortunately, both economies will be hurt badly before both sides inevitably have to settle. It is so unnecessary.
2
@Agostini - "China is not Canada or Mexico. She has her own political consideration, ...."
Yes, obviously China is not Canada or Mexico. No surprise there. But what are you implying by stating that Canada and Mexico do not have their own political consideration.
Are Canada and Mexico non-states? Are they US colonies, whose internal affairs are directed by Washington? Are they not democracies with politicians that are answerable to electorates? What are we talking about here?
1
@Eddie B.
Canada is definitely an economic colony of the US. She agreed to a clause in the revised NAFTA not to sign trade agreement with China without the US approval. As a Canadian, I am not proud of my government to give up our sovereignity with nothing in return. Instead, we still get whacked by Trump's steel and aluminum tariff in the name of natiional security threat from Canada !!!!
What are the chances trump and his Munchkin ilk are profiting off the market swings the trump is flippantly causing with each coordinated tweet? The trump-Russian collusion communications were all done out in the open, why not move the markets for the benefit of trump insiders in the same way?
The only deal trump is interested in with China is the one than enriches hi the most.
8
Anyone want to bet that Trump is using his threats to manipulate the market for his own personal trading and undoubtable giving the heads up to a few of his billionaire buddies like Adelson. Trump is giving a whole new meaning to insider trading and stock manipulation.
Memo to SEC: look for some recent big trades shorting the market.
9
This will get more strange before anything is resolved. Trump's bullying is just going to increase the uncertainty.
Just what economies need...uncertainty.
2
China will not give in, for a very simple reason: Taiwan! They are now simply showing the world that they play by the rule and intend to resolve differences through negotiation. If they are scared by Trump's economic threat today, they have to fight a bloody war to keep Taiwan from becoming independent tomorrow. The Westerners (or the Caucasians as Trump's policy maker defines it) will not understand how mainland Chinese feel about Taiwan, not just for tons of gold and national treasures took from the mainland in 1949...
2
Xi wants Taiwan. Why? Vanity? Glory? Ego?
The truth is that all of Taiwan rejects China rule. Period.
Peaceful co-existence (the status quo) or war.
@CHD Taiwan is the world’s largest aircraft carrier.
Yes
Dont despair.
We’re just a tweet away from a market rally.
6
Trump seems to enjoy making statements that disrupt the markets. Does anyone else wonder about insider trading profits by a President who monetizes whatever he can?
11
Trump and Mnuchin are always so glib. Why should anyone take their public statements seriously?
3
I hope he taxes them high and long. The GOP follow failed policies from the past and deserve the negative fallout.
1
If the US really wants to put pressure on China, Trump needs to threaten a nationwide ban on Chinese visas.
Trump is manipulating the stock market. He and his cronies are profiting on inside information relating to his tariff threats.
11
Today is the day many Canadians feared but knew would happen.
Those of us who knew the USA was not our friend knew there would be the day that the USA would declare war on Canada and question our sovereignty over land we consider part of our sovereign territory.
By questioning Canada's sovereignty over the Arctic Secretary of State Pompeo has declared war on Canada just as Germany's claims over the Sudetenland precipitated World War Two.
Even as we know China is also not our friend it does not as of yet threaten our territory and our sovereignty.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2019/05/07/arctic-attack-on-canada-leaves-pompeo-adrift-at-sea.html
On the eve of a federal election Canadians must wrestle with the question of where do we go when Big Brother is the real existential threat to who and what we are.
It is difficult to know whether to support either the USA or China when our only salvation is that this economic war may be our only way to maintain our liberal democracy.
5
@Montreal Moe
With climate change and Americans farmlands turning to deserts there are some who foresee the USannexing Canada.
1
@New World
Thank you.
The link to Heather Mallick's column in the Toronto Star uses many more than our permitted 1500 characters. She emphasizes that what Pompeo calls Real Estate is now sea, land and ice but in US eyes will be gold, uranium, rare Earths, fish and other valuables as America's farmland turns to desert..
1
The s and p 500 is off 2% as I type. Perhaps Mr T is more vunerable then he thought.
1
At the end of WW II, US statesmen, reacting to the tariff wars that took place during the period preceding the conflict and which played a not insignificant role in bringing it about, were wise enough to put into place international structures which could resolve trading conflicts between nations in a manner which all could accept as, if not perfect, reasonably equitable. (These statesmen were, of course, no altruists ; they realised that the US, which unlike its competitors had been strengthened, rather than devasted by the war, would as the predominant industrial and economic power outside the Soviet sphere, gain the most from such structures, which they dominated, but they regarded it as an additional benefit that other nations would gain as well, if not so much.) Today, that very USA is doing its best to tear down the structures it erected nearly seven decades ago, and instead is resorting to the tactics of the 1930s in its attempts to resolve commercial and other conflicts it its favour. These tactics didn't work so well that time 'round ; it would be dangerously naive to bet the farm on their doing so today....
Henri
7
While watching Shark Tank, several entrepreneurs commonly are making the product in the USA, which is not as cheap as seeking overseas production. The sharks discuss how making such and such overseas will improve profit margins immensely. As seen weekly on prime time television, that is
a picture of the bottom line that drives present day USA capitalism. Profit, Profit, Profit.
It seems okay to take away American jobs if a profit margin increases.
For the sake of the American economy, it seems the eternal chasing of profits needs to be tempered, per a massive mental overhaul of profit not as the final victory.
Somehow, through the muddied and murky Trump economic tweet policies, I think he has somewhat led Americans to champion the "Made in the USA " brand, even as only 15% of the products in the Trump store are made in the US.
3
The party is over. It’s time to do the hard work of building new supply chains. China and the USA were always strange bedfellows and it is to our supreme naïveté that we ever expected China to make any kind of democratic reforms.
Let the citizens of that country build their own middle class.
4
They already are! They are a huge market that our corporations want. That’s what this is all about.
9
@Mary Sampson China is always going to pick domestic winners. They will come calling for things like pork and soybeans but the Apples, Facebooks, Goldman’s etc. will always have a native-grown and fostered competitor that will always win. What in the last 25 years would indicate otherwise?
2
This is something that trump is doing right (and I am no fan of trump in general). For long enough, china has been eating our lunch. Let the tariffs rise to 25%.
I think what's being lost on lots of commenters, is that China already has tariffs on US automobiles in some cases making buying a car from GM or Ford costing double or triple what you pay in the US. Let that sink in. So buying any american car will cost 50K-70K in China. I'm not even getting into forced technology transfers.
So if those tariffs are good for China, why are the tariffs Trump is proposing bad for the US?
10
@shirley
Because we are still much bigger than they are, we depend on them, and we will have a huge increase in our prices as a result of tariff wars.
It's been known for two centuries that such wars are detrimental, and can be devastating to both parties.
3
@shirley
Good grief when was the last time you bought a car? They are $50 to $70k here. :-)
4
@shirley
Good grief when was the last time you bought a car? They are $50 to $70k here.
The international financial system is in free fall. Maybe this manufactured crisis will finally trigger its collapse.
5
@Harry
John Ralston Saul first published his The Collapse of Globalism and the Reinvention of the World in 2005. Even as Time Magazine called him a prophet I could not believe that a Donald Trump and his ilk would do the reinventing Saul the historian, writer, two term head of PEN International understood it would be the Trumps that did the reinventing as they always had.
Who knew that an historian would title his seemingly book about the future was simply recording our now being lived history.
1
Tariffs are old hat and the future is free trade agreements. Maybe small USA businesses affected by all this could look into registering as a NZ business and get around Trump living in the past, that way. Most NZ trade agreements are free trade agreements with other nations and China is our biggest buyer of our product.
There is also less paper work and stress for small businesses under free trade deals. There'll be lots of unemployment if small businesses have to lay off staff. Tariffs are protectionism and create an artificial situation in a nation.
5
The GDP of New Zealand is less than the New York State budget let alone New York's economy. ridiculous comparison.
1
@mkm And what has that to do with the price of cheese, I ask you. NZ is the first nation in the world to see the sun and we punch above our weight globally.
1
If I had the ability to make the stock market surge up or down merely by speaking out, I'd make a bundle of money easily, right?
Trump not only has the ability to move the market with tweets or talks, he has been doing it frequently. So....?
14
@Muskateer Al I wouldn't doubt if some of his close friends have shorted US companies in the last few days. The man is a traitor so I wouldn't put this past him.
2
Trump has not fixed anything yet in this country, from immigration to huge deficits and health care. His NAFTA 2 has minor tweaks only.
Anyone expects anything positive long term with China? I don’t think so.
20
@CarolinaJoe
8 years of Obama gave us Strategic Patience, a Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action ( what is that?) and Obamacare. Trump is 2 years in and has done orders of magnitude more than Obama even dreamed of doing.
1
@GregP
Continued defying the rule of law; abuses the Constitution; Hate Crimes WAY UP; racism, xenophobia, huge wealth disparity, relaxed regulations, so our air and water are less safe; defunding programs that benefit millions of Americans....and a tax cut that ONLY millionaires and above would love. Yeah, he's greeeattt!
2
Knowing Trump’s priorities we can expect this deal may have some benefits short term and could be a disaster long term. Whatever it takes to look good in 2020, forget about 5 years from now. We already know it will be front-loaded with China promising large purchases of goods for few years.
6
@CarolinaJoe
Don't forget Ivanka's trademarks. That would be a deal breaker for Dear Leader if his daughter can't profit too.
Nepotism at it's finest.
1
Lawerence Wilkerson said the Trump administration’s combative attitude toward China increases the potential for conflict. “We're talking about a serious situation. So we're doing everything we possibly can—Trump, largely for his domestic base and his political objectives to get re-elected, and the military, largely to gain money. And what we're doing is we're fulfilling all the prophecies that people have said … that China and the United States will inevitably fight. It is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
3
@Jean Mcmahon
Right, there was no conflict when Obama was was in power because China could just take what it wanted - it swallowed the South China Sea and expanded across Africa and South America.
2
@Amy What were we to do start a war over the South China Sea and all they are doing is filling the void that Trump left open in South America and Africa
@Amy
China has not swallowed the South China Sea. I had the same impression from media outlets such as the NYT, but then did some research on my own. Most of the islands in the area are occupied by Taiwan, Vietnam, and the Philippines. The largest island in the area was first settled by Chinese, then it was conquered by France in the colonial era, Japan in World War II, and is now occupied by Taiwan. China does not occupy any of the islands in the area, just a few reefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islands. Unfortunately, the media has not learned from the Iraq WMDs disaster and is still invested in fabricating geopolitical drama.
1
Is Trump and the Chinese leaders playing on all of us, ordinary Americans and Chinese?
2
@David Well Mnuchin is the one w the silly smile..He does not care what China thinks..as long as Trump's base is fooled,no worry
When it comes down to Trump's tweets and money to be made from trade, Trump is irrelevant, completely irrelevant. Just ask Putin, if you don't believe me.
7
So thanks to Tarriff Man, Americans will soon be paying even higher prices than the ones he has already imposed on them, and the stock market plunges.
So much winning!
23
@marks
Yes I am all for cheap goods as well. It just bothers me that it is used to enrich a regime like that in China, that uses this money to expand its military and subjugate people. Maybe companies now having experienced how predatory China is will get those cheap good made in Vietnam or Bangladesh. It will be costly for now but over time it will get cheap again. I think the tariffs are the right move now and their impact will be felt short term.
good point. there are many countries in the world that would appreciate our business.
better a repressive regime than pay an extra fifty bucks for that fifth TV.
Not to mention the greedy American labor unions who want a decent wage.
According to economic theory a trade imbalance will result in an increase in the value of the currency of the nation selling more relative to the currency of the nation selling less. The goods of the nation selling more will increase in cost and the goods of the other nation decrease. This corrects the trade imbalance. In the case of China and the US, China keeps its currency at a low value and thus the imbalance persists. A US tariff increases the cost of Chinese goods for Americans which is what would happen if currencies were allow to adjust. If the tariff revenue is used to subsidize American producers who face retaliatory Chinese tariffs they can lower prices and will not lose business. Thus a trade war maybe a blunt but effective approach to long term Chinese intransigence.
@Henry Saffer So you are saying that collect money/revenue from one segment of American businessmen who import goods from China and pay a lot more in form of duty on their purchased goods and pass that money to another segment of Americans who export to China and that will solve the problem. Won't Government subsidies Trump administration has been giving to the exporting farmers do the same?
7
@Henry Saffer
Yes, if you have similar costs of manufacturing. If you have one side manufacturing at 1/5 of the costs in the other country, you get more goods and trade imbalance persists.
Second, how you calculate the costs of manufacturing? Take iPhone, where many more expensive parts are manufactured in SK or Taiwan and final assembly is in China. When it comes out of China it is valued at $300 but the Chinese contribution is only $50. Nevertheless, the value of $300 is taken for trade assessment.
7
@Henry Saffer China’s currency hasn’t been undervalued for years. In fact it is arguably overvalued. China has been drawing on its foreign reserve to prop up its currency.
The dollar is just too strong right now due to other factors and will shrug off any downward pressure from the trade imbalance.
The American businesses who ventured into China for the cheap labor are mostly to blame for all this. The outsourcing of manufacturing to China and Mexico was premeditated by American businesses to make their shareholders happy.
12
So Chinese are ignoring Trump Tantrum (TM) an lies and keeping their eyes on the prize. Someone's gotta be an adult.
Chinese always insisted that the tariff should be lifted immediately on both sides, and the US demand for unilateral delaying won't work for Chinese as that is a humiliation reminiscent of the 19th century. My guess is that they will agree on a bilateral phased-in lift and then Trump will declare the victory.
3
Oh man, so many people dont understand the need for this trade deal (a real one) that past presidents avoided! Chuck Schumer actually agrees with the aggressive stance of Trump in these talks, he gets it! Wake up Trump haters.
6
@Don Q
Don’t praise the day before sunset. Nothing has been established yet.
Yes, we need a better deal, that includes TPP countries and EU, which is 65% of world economy. That is pressure way stronger than Trump’s one-on-one. That is exactly what Clinton was planning to do.
Trump’s deal may have some short term benefits but we will need to re-negotiate it again in 3-5 years. Same as with NAFTA which has minor tweaks and was better in the context of TPP.
7
@CarolinaJoe What's the point of this comment? I never said a deal was imminent, I was commenting on Trump's aggressive hefting of tariffs on China which have forced it to the table like never before. Clinton hasn't even come close to something of this scale. Again, the only thing I praised was Trump's aggressive strategy, something Schumer identifies as necessary when dealing with China, so your comment is not relevant to what I've said.
@Don Q Yes; Trump is "aggressive". Attacking China when Russia is our enemy. Trump is weak. Ray Sipe
Gotta give the Wall Street traders a reason to trade and manipulate prices up and down.
6
Tariffs literally do nothing for our economy.
6
As flawed as a President he may be, give Trump some credit here. He's trying to strike a good long term deal with China, he could have struck a watered down deal for political reasons and touted it as a huge win but he didn't. He also could have done similar with N. Korea but did not.
14
Apparently, there were strong indications that the Chinese are muddling waters, Trump was informed, and he reacted as he reacted.
For me, a spot-on reaction. Either we find an agreement with them and rebalance the trade, or we largely shut our market to them. It will hurt us, and it will hurt them much, much more. The difference is we will heal more easily (hopefully) and in the long run this is certainly a commendable, however erratic, action.
I have to say though that it is so sad that the NYT and its readership take the Chinese side gladly and cheerily only to malign Trump, without slightest regard for the well-being of US, a measure of their negative obsession.
19
@ss
Shutting down trade with China means world depression, and 15-20% unemployment in US.
Much more important is intellectual Property China is stealing, and that part is off the table in this negotiations.
Having identified a legitimate issue regarding American economic interests, President Trump as usual is making a mess of things. International negotiations require deft and nuance, but Donald Trump only knows how to wield a sledgehammer.
10
Perhaps the talks are resuming BECAUSE the president promised higher tariffs. It's about time we had a president with enough guts to address the trade inequities. We don't need to subsidize China any longer. This should have ended decades ago, and if we consumers have to pay slightly higher prices on goods for a time, it will be money well spent to get back on equal footing.
5
@Razl
"if we have to pay slightly higher prices on goods."
Ahh, once again the Middle Class has to foot the bill.
1
sad how many Americans would sell out our country to get cheaper goods
The president can't help himself. He simply must keep driving anything and everything into the ditch to garner more attention to him.
Drama, for dramatic effect... regardless of the fact that his Tariffs mostly harm the US consumer, who must pay higher prices to cover the tariffs... and small and medium size US businesses that rely on foreign sourced materials for their business activities. But as a real estate speculator and seller of an inflated brand.. none of this matters to Trump because said tariffs do not hurt him personally.
6
Minor trade imbalances are nothing to worry about. Large trade imbalances, such as with China, year after year, need to be openly addressed and corrected; otherwise, greedy mercantilist countries would relentlessly sweep the wealth of other countries and in due time would leave them so impoverished that they cannot buy anything any more. President Trump, in a rare turn of good judgement, is right in being tough with China on matters of trade. I support him in this matter.
22
It s unfortunate that our Grifter in Chief is managing
this issue.
BUT the Chinese trade deficit is almost 3 and 1/2 trillion
dollars over the past decade. In exchange for cheap goods
we have helped create and strengthen a totalitarian state.
Business is war and we need to be more discriminating
as to who we trade with. We, and not the Chinese, would
be better off by decoupling from them.
1
I agree that business is war and better we fight a trade war than a hot war with a country who has built up its military with our money.
The Chinese are smart enough to know trump is full of hot air. Likely there is more than 1 Chinese proverb to describe trump.
8
How much does the world hate dealing with the unpredictable, ignorant, and petulant brat that sits in the White House. We better never need anyone's help in the future because tit for tat and reciprocity is the way the world works. All the ill-will will come to roost only after Trump has left the White House but this distrust will not easily be forgotten - maybe if we put him in jail we might win back the trust and respect of the rest of the world and our own.
5
What amazes me is that so called "investors" continue to sell off each time Trump cries wolf. One would think, by now, that anything Trump says, or does, is just a bunch of hot air. There is two reason for this:
1. Investors just get spooked.
2. Investors and Trump are manipulating the market.
By the way, outside the US, Trump's actions are heaping on recessions in places like Australia.
10
@Nick Metrowsky
Only two things rule the markets: fear and greed.
One or the other has to be topmost.
3
Trump has poisoned the well, by making these trade talks into an issue of national pride in portraying the other side as a loser.
This pathology has been long noted in Trump's approach to business, in that he never believed in a win win: he only won if he made someone else lose, so he would breach agreements and taunt competitors.
And because it's easy to portray someone as a loser in a complicated trade deal, both Trump and China are less interested in any sort of agreement.
Trade deals come about when all sides gain political cover by announcing it as a win-win with mutual concessions and mutual gains. Which they are.
5
Trying to bully and weaken eight million Palestinians into submission will not work, no matter how much Trump may try. The Palestinians, unlike China, do not have nuclear weapons, a navy, army, 1.5 billion people, nor do millions of Americans and businesses depend on the Palestinians for their livelihood.
Trying to humiliate, threaten, and belittle an economic powerhouse like China will never work but will instead succeed in beginning a world wide trade war that will result in a deep recession here in America with several million Americans losing their jobs.
Did the Republicans somehow not get the message from the war we started with Iraq? The rest of the world is not going to be bullied by America into supporting policies they don't agree with. The Chinese have a proud, long, and rich cultural history and their national honor will not allow them to bow down to the emperor in the White House and concede to his demands.
Yes, the Chinese have stolen intelligence secrets and industrial secrets from America and the rest of the world. You can name consumer electronic devices that are manufactured in China but you would be hard pressed to name any that were designed by the Chinese. The Chinese have stolen intellectual property on a grand scale.
The best way to deal with an adversary is to negotiate with them like adults and not try and threaten them and call their bluff. Bullies like Trump are going to take the entire world down as the emperor is shown to have no clothes.
5
@Mark Jeffery Koch
Sounds like you are suggesting Strategic Patience paired with a Comprehensive Plan of Action. Those tactics worked so well when the last President used them didn't they?
1
Proud? Obviously you're not a Uighur.
Anything else the Chinese have a right to be proud of? Are you going to throw the cultural revolution in there?
Trump really likes walls, physical and economic. His "America First" policy will end up isolating Americans behind Trump's walls while the rest of the world community carries on outside the walls.
17
We all know Trump's deal making protocols: bluff, false claims, unreasonable demands, and wild threats. He eventually achieves some small concessions but causes extensive damage in the process.
Here Trump is literally a bull in a China shop.
Trump will broadcast his "success" while hiding the downsides from the American people. The Chinese are smarter than Trump, so Trump's "win" will be a USA loss.
8
Different presidents have different styles, but we have to stop acting as though Trump is anything other than insane.
One of the most powerful nations on earth has somehow ended up with a madman calling the shots.
The emperor has no clothes, people.
12
More “Ready, Fire, Aim” from DJT.
His Treasury guy should be back in the US gathering up those tax returns as US law demands.
Otherwise it’s all show.
For the record- my money is on China.
DJT is in WAY over his head. China did not ascend to their current position in the world by luck!
They know DJT is compromised.
7
Trump is pushing US dominance in world trade )"America First"). Bolton is pushing US military dominance ("New American Century" philosophy).
The rest of the world realizes that co-operation is the only means of survival on this planet.
9
@Greg China does not want to cooperate. They want to replace US as the world's economic and military superpower.
Last I checked they aren't too friendly went it comes to human and civil rights.
23
@Not 99pct, neither is the Trump administration as the Family Separation policy demonstrates conclusively.
20
@jonathan If you think that's a huge violation of human rights you need to read up some more on Chinese human rights violations. They make Trump look like Mother Theresa. Those separated children are still provided care. In China if you speak out against the government you can disappear. Chinese Muslims are being imprisoned by the thousands. Drawing those comparisons is an insult to those people.
4
These Trump tariffs are destroying family farms. More tariffs? Trump's myopic focus on China, a nation that we've never even been at war with, is having terrible consequences for the economy.
13
@Tony Robert Cochran The family farmers are the ones who put Trump in the White House and support him 100 percent even as they go broke.
10
@Andrew I think you are correct, given the outcome of the 2016 election, and Trump's support in the agricultural areas of the US, especially places where soybeans are grown - a particularly financially hard-hit crop - that many of those affected are Trump-backers. I even read an interview in The Times with a farmer who was willing to "suffer" because they supported Trump's tariff fight.
3
Tariffs are a tax on U.S. consumers. And that’s okay.
When U.S. jobs are outsourced, society has to help pay for the food, shelter, healthcare, and education of the long-term unemployed. This is also a tax.
And China is recycling its trade surplus into a military expansion that challenges the U.S., forcing us to increase our own defense spending. This is also a tax.
It’s better to pay the “tariff-tax” than the “social/defense tax” and keep American workers gainfully employed at livable wages.
There is no free lunch.
15
@John, your contention is not logical. How does consumers paying more create more jobs here? The actual result of the tariff war is to cause farmers and some manufacturers to lose markets overseas. Many jobs have been lost in industries affected directly and indirectly by these tariffs
13
Those jobs are not coming back to the US... they will go to other emerging markets. Trump will back down because US corporations want access to the growing Chinese markets. This is just more bluster!
1
@John
This is innumerate. Every study I've seen finds that protectionism costs high-six figures per job saved. The amount of social spending needed to transition workers to new jobs is peanuts by comparison.
The idea that China's trade surplus is funding its military expansion also makes no sense. The only ways China could use its trade surplus to fund military expansion are either buying weapons from foreign countries, or hiring its own people to make weapons and serve in the army. Of course, China is not buying weapons from foreign countries because if it was, those would count as imports, so China wouldn't have a trade surplus any more. And China's big trade surplus actually makes it harder for the government to hire China's own workers to build weapons and serve in the army, because those workers are busy making consumer products for us. Indeed, China spends a much smaller percentage of its GDP and population on military than we do. If our tariffs put Chinese workers out of work, their government would probably follow Keynesianism and put those workers to work in the public sector, including the military and police.
Fantastic news. Finally someone willing to stand up to China and get a fair trade deal.
For years they've demanded that any investment in China comes with strings attached along with sharing of intellectual property.
Good for Trump.
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@Ari
It's called capitalism. You can chose to buy or not. You can chose to invest or not. The seller sets the conditions that the seller believes will be accepted in the market place.
If the US doesn't accept negotiated trade deal conditions, it just won't be part of the market. Other countries will. The US can do a trade deal with Palau.
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@Ari Is Trump using a negotiation technique or is he manipulating the market. It's hard to tell, but given Trump's obvious ignorance on so many issues, I suggest he is incapable of any real negotiation technique. Self interest is more probably the explanation. It just may be singularly the only time when his self interest has manifested itself as something that may, if implemented by an intelligent person, lead to a small benefit to our country. I would expect that it will be made moot because he will achieve no agreement. Because he is not intelligent. However, he does grift a bit, and his friends likely have placed shorts knowing what his actions would be ahead of time.
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@Ari Trump attacks China because Trump is weak. Russia is our real enemy. Trump picks on China; Iran; Venezuela because he is WEAK. Trump destroyed the trade agreements; put on tariffs and thumbs his nose at the World. Trump is weak; not strong. Ray Sipe
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Threatening China trade, sending ships to Iran, threatening Venezuela are all part of trumps desperate attempts to get his investigations aside and make him seem like he's necessary for our country. All Presidents consider a battle or two when they seem to be losing popularity.
He will be more erratic if the Dems really follow through. Unfortunately he has Bolton and Miller whispering in his ear.
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If I were the Chinese Government I would withdraw my negotiating team and say it was because of the unreasonable pressure from Trump. In other words, I would tell Trump to do an impossible act to himself.
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@Gene S-
If I were the Chinese I would sign any deal and when the US goes into recession tear it up. Right now the Chinese needs exports. In a few years they will have the biggest middle class consuming economy in the world.
By going around the WTO and using Presidential power to force a deal, the President has created a precedent that any deal can be torn up by either side when the leverage changes.
When the law and traditions are subverted the deal has no backbone. Instead of signing onto TPP and using our trading power to strengthen the WTO, we are using nothing but current leverage to force a deal. By subverting the law that we established we encourage all nations to subvert the law to engage in side deals for short term political purposes. Today it may well be in China's political interest to make a deal that Trump wants. Tomorrow they can tear it up.
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@Gene S
How stupid Trump and his followers are, to think that the brutish intimidation tactics and crude demands he's used for so long to cheat furniture makers, homemakers, and other honest private citizens are going to work on the geopolitical might of China and its 1.4 billion people.
China has already won. They hold undisputed supremacy in Asia, are the largest developer in Africa, and American influence in Europe is quickly crumbling in favor of the Chinese. The US is bleeding white from continuous wars across the Middle East, achieving nothing but hatred across the entire region. America's allies Saudi Arabia and Israel are virtual factories of human rights abuses.
The negotiations are largely about how much China will demand in exchange for granting Trump a "deal" he can then hawk to his base. After the collapse of talks in North Korea, they already know that Trump cannot afford to leave empty-handed. They can smell the desperation on his tweets.
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@Gene S
Are you saying that it is time for US to concede defeat and let China steal technology and force technology transfer from US Companies. This also means we let them subsidize their companies that sell and undercut US Companies while they prevent US companies from selling their products in China without a Chinese partner.
Do you feel that in order to hurt Trump it is OK to hurt our country?
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Maybe Mr. Liu, unlike President Trump, will help Americans by heading off these tariffs.
Or perhaps he can at least explain to Trump that Americans pay the tarriffs, not Chinese buyers.
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If the net effect of these tariffs reduce wages in China and increase the cost of goods low wage workers in the US purchase, how is that good for our economy and our competitiveness in the world economy?
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a million Uighurs aside, we want cheap goods. and no union labor.
who wants to pay an extra 25 bucks for that fifth television?
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