According to the previous article on this ruling transgender athletes must supress their testosterone levels for a year before competing as women and that does not appear to be controversial in the community. I realize that Ms Semenya is not transgender in the sense that she has always presented as a female but if she is XY with typically male hormonal levels and sensitivity how is her case so different from transgender athletes? and why should she be exempt from the rules they follow?
2
I am appalled that the NYT doesn't see fit to print the relevant fact that Caster is a genetic male.
This is not a biologically advantaged female, but a biologically different male. Caster is a male with differences/disorders in sexual development.
The ruling DOES NOT apply to genetic females. Only genetic males have a limit on their testosterone levels.
This is totally reasonable. Not to mention most female athletes already control their hormones to regulate cycles for competition.
5
"whom she mistook for a boy "
gee I wonder why?
1
It seems dishonest reporting not to mention that the rule about limiting testosterone only applies to women with xy chromosomes. It does not apply to all women with elevated testosterone.
7
Why stop here? Height and weight limits. Oxygen intake limits. Age limits. IQ standards. In the brave new world of athletics, all participants must be average. Sigh.
1
Doesn't anyone else think that it's ironic that the Russian female Gold Medalist lost her medal due to doping in 2012 thus giving Semenva a Gold or that her wife was accussed of doping. So maybe all female atheles should be allowed to have a certain level of testerone in their systems whether nature or supplemented. That would even the playing field but the long term health risks of anyone taking supplemental hormones vs winning a few medals or sports events just doesn't seem like a good idea.
One woman's testosterone advantage, is another persons height, or strength, or eye-hand co-ordination advantage. Next we should ban female high-jumpers or volleyball players who are too tall, or female shot-putters who are too strong. Where do you draw the line in genetic advantage? It's a slippery slope from here on in.
The NYTimes leads the article with "Authorities (MEN) place limits on female athletes which is (I think) intentionally misleading. Absolutely zero men benefited from this ruling no matter which way it went. It only affects female athletes many of whom instigated this inquiry because they felt that they could not compete on a level playing field. Ms Samenya has a complex biology with both male and female characteristics, but her strength comes from the strongly male side. I am not a women so don't have a dog in this fight but it seems so very unfair (and unfortunate for Ms Samenya) for her to compete against biological women with testosterone levels in the appropriate range.
7
There are norms and rules. If you are an exception, you have to accept it and not ruin lives of other people because of that. Life is cruel, it's a lottery, but you should have a decency and dignity.
6
It is unfair for her to compete against females that have normal female testosterone levels. Clearly, she is a better runner BECAUSE of the testosterone, not in spite of the testosterone. Semenya is not cheating, but she has a clear and enormous physical advantage, and she uses it to her advantage. She can suppress the testosterone and compete at the same testosterone level as others, but she insists on keeping the huge advantage, while saying that she wants to remain "natural". Then she cleverly promotes herself as the victim, campaigning as being oppressed.
A true competitor would want to win against others while competing on a level playing field. Not her, she wants no part of that. This is her enormous physical advantage, and she intends on fully utilizing it. She gravitated toward physical competition, where it is advantageous, and she is staying there as she is, winning (of course) and promoting her bravery and courage. Oh please!
12
Does this ruling set a precedent forcing abnormally tall people to have some bone removed so they don’t have an unfair advantage?
Or maybe they should just stop giving out medals altogether because it’s unfair for some athletes to go home empty handed. While they are at it they should stop timing races, after all its unfair that I’m slow.
How about an optimum time race? The winner is whoever gets closer to the average time.
1
If those identifying as women born with Y chromosomes along with transwomen are allowed to compete in women's events we will soon face a situation where few or no XX women will win. Is that what we want? Should XX women be allowed to supplement with testosterone?
Look up the records of boys, girls, men and women in the track events at all distances. Caster Semenya should compete in open or men's event's.
13
I thought that the IAAF decision and the CAS ruling affirming it were both reasonable compromises to permit intersex athletes to compete while not destroying women's athletics. But I'm happy to leave this up to women. If women want to run against intersex athletes like Semenya, let them. I won't be watching, but ultimately it is a choice that should be made by women.
1
Face it; there is a range. Now, get over it! Normal consists of well more than what many conceive. She exemplifies womanhood!
If it is true, as some of the comments suggest, that this athlete is genetically male (has a Y chromosome) and in some respects has a “male” body, I do not understand why this information was omitted from the article. If true, those facts would make this a much harder case than the one presented. But in either case, I fail to see how doping this athlete could ever be the answer. Perhaps the right answer is to create at least one more class of athletes in the testosterone “middle ground” to reflect the true diversity of humankind, as several other commenters have proposed.
7
Semenya is an intersex athlete with functional testicles. She, as other intersex athletes, should not be allowed to compete in the female category. This unfair advantage is going to destroy female sports, their accomplishments on their own right.
Either they should compete against male athletes (which is fair), or we will end up abolishing any sex category in sports. That would be fun, and , of course, be the end of female sports.
7
The definition of a human male is one with a Y chromosome. Semenya is a male as he has undescended testicles, and only males with a Y chromosome have testicles. Semenya is not a woman, as women have XX chromosomes and no testes.
Reality: Humans are a dimorphic species, coming in male or female forms. Yes, there are intersex people like Semenya who have some anatomical structures of both sexes; the condition of such people is called a Disorder of Sexual Development. Such people are the result of genetic mutations, or errors in the transcription of DNA or RNA. Nature sometimes makes mistakes, toxins or radiation cause damage to cell nuclei and result in abnormalities.
Intersex individuals are rare and abnormal. According to the National Institutes of Health, the incidence of intersex births is less than 2 in 10,000, or 0.018%. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12476264
Humans with Y chromosomes have the athletic male advantages of a larger skeletal frame & musculature, and the effects of higher testosterone levels. People with Y chromsomes are not women and should not be allowed to compete with women athletes, as the Y chromosome gives them an unfair advantage. People with Y chromosomes, whether so-called transgender or intersex or some other Disorder of Sexual Development, are biologically male and the maleness is marked in every cell of the body; as such, they should not be allowed to compete with women and steal women's athletic awards and scholarships.
14
The media is doing a great job obfuscating the facts. Semenya is not a genetic woman. She has a male karytope, 46 XY. Her external genitalia is ambiguous or appears feminine; however, she does not have a uterus or ovaries but undescended testes that produce testosterone at typical male levels. Females, including elite athletes, have testosterone levels between 0.12–1.79 nanomoles per liter. For males, the range is 7.7–29.4. The difference explains why a high school boy on a competitive varsity track team can outrun the fastest woman in the world. That’s the issue.
20
There is no way that Caster Semenya should be allowed to race in women's events. Genetically, Caster is a male with an X and Y chromosome. Due to the Y chromosome, she has a large number of male characteristics including increased testosterone production, increased muscle mass, broad shoulders, etc. The only reason Caster does not have the typical male sexual organs is that there is (are) another genetic defect(s) on the Y chromosome that prevented normal development of the sex organs. With one exception, to allow an XY individual to compete with females is to say that you support the eventual death of women's sporting events. The one exception to this is if the XY individual has a defective Sex Responsive element on the Y chromosome (SRY). If you have a defective SRY, you will not express any male characteristics since the SRY is the master regulator of male characteristics. Rather, an XY with a defective SRY will be a sterile female. Female is the default gender for humans such that X, XX, XXX etc. individuals are female and if you have a Y chromosome (XY, XXY, etc,) you are a male unless you have a defective SRY.
15
@Rob
Precisely! I think activists are very consciously taking advantage of the public’s lack of knowledge about intersex conditions and sex chromosomes in general.
9
@Rob-Chemist
Not a key part of your argument, but, from what I know, the SRY gene is the only gene important to male development on the Y chromosome. All the other genes that regulate and promote the male developmental pathway are on other chromosomes. Females have all the male-making genes, except SRY, it's just that they were never turned on due to that lack of SRY. The gene that usually would be defective in an individual with androgen insensitivity syndrome, what I understand Caster to have, is on the X chromosome.
This and so many other articles about Semenya ignore the elephant in the room - that her enhanced testosterone levels are apparently the result of being born with testicles, which caused her to develop a male musculature. That would make her intersex, rather than strictly male or female.
It's obvious that being male confers advantages in strength and speed over females, which is why there are different competitions for men and women in the first place. And being born with testicles is what creates this advantage - it's not a question of the genetic variability that makes some better athletes than others. So in fairness, shouldn't that be the standard that determines which category one competes in?
5
She has undescended testicles that produce testosterone, she is genetically male, and she has no ovaries or uterus. I respect her right to identify as female, but due to her testosterone level, she has the muscular strength and the speed of a male. It is unfair to the other female competitors to have to compete with someone who is genetically male. The correct decision has been made.
9
It's not heroic to compete against women when you have a Y chromosome and testes. It's cheating.
7
I find it incredible that an article about Caster Semenya doesn’t once use the words “intersex” or “DSD,” nor mentions that she has internal testes and an absence of internal female reproductive organs. Her elevated testosterone levels have a cause, they are not random. It is wonderful that she is a heroine in the fight for recognition of a full gender spectrum, but sports at the moment are binary. She is a professional runner, and the money she earns by winning is money that women athletes without her intersex condition give up.
7
Do men have to take hormone suppressants if their testosterone levels are high?
It’s not abnormal for men to have testicles.
2
It's quite simple:
If the body has -- or ever had -- testes, it is male.
No amount of surgery or self-identification can change that.
Semenya was born with testes and has no internal female organs.
That Semenya considers her/his self to be female is not the criterion, and should play no role in event assignment.
Semenya is, unequivocally, male.
5
Then male athletes need to have their testosterone levels checked and compete accordingly.
2
This pretty much ticks all the boxes on the play card of how to discriminate against people based on how nature made them. Sexism, misogyny, racism, anti-gay, etc. Read Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Literature sometimes predicts the future. I wonder if the committee will next take up very high testosterone male athletes and claim they need to take drugs to make them less capable than their teammates. Any bets? Biology is a spectrum. On this one, the Court of Arbitration for Sport seems more like the Court of the Asinine for Stupidity.
1
This is ridiculous. What's next, amusement park-esque height limits and maximums for runners?
1
I suppose the next step is to require that the very best male athletes—if they have higher testosterone than their competitors—must take drugs to get rid of their advantage.
If we let the female-hating whiners get their way on this, what’s next? Participation Trophies for every athlete in the Olympics, so nobody’s feelings are hurt? That’s great for kids, but for adults, not so much.
1
The controversy regarding Caster Semenya has been dragging on for years - this current matter is but the latest chapter.
In 2009, when she was 18, Caster was subjected to hormone testing and a sex verification test after her personal best track times suddenly spiked downwards by several seconds - results consistent with the use of illegal performance-enhancing drugs and/or hormone treatments.
The results of the sex verification were confidential, but parts of the report were leaked. Caster was found to have levels of testosterone in the range of male athletes and an "extremely rare medical condition". The latter was thought to be an intersex condition - internal male testes. Caster has never disclosed the test results herself, but it possible she has male XY chromosomes and does not have female sex organs.
Even if her physical makeup is unconfirmed, it seems clear that, hormonally at least, she is very different from other female athletes and competes with a distinct advantage over them. Is this advantage - natural as it may be - fair? How would you feel if you were a female runner competing against this woman with the muscle fibers and strength of a man?
Caster's career is well-advanced and her success as an athlete is unquestioned. Perhaps the questions posed by her unique attributes and the broader issue of the broader issue of intersex athletic competition would be best served if she allowed the facts of her physical makeup to be made public.
4
This is outrageous, sexist and probably racist. Are we going to strip Michael Phelps of his medals because his abnormally long arms give him a competitive advantage? The irony of REQUIRING a world class athlete to dope in order to compete should not be lost on anyone.
1
This sexism debate is ridiculous. Like many intersex people she has testes so she has very high testosterone levels. This goes beyond the physical exceptionalism that many athletes have. I agree with the ruling that she takes drugs to lower her testosterone to normal female levels if she wants to compete against women.
5
Caster Semenya's case is a challenging one in terms of determining the fair thing, in my opinion. As ES from Chicago comments: we can be fair to her (and a few other similar cases) or to the majority of women. Yes elite athletes are elite because of their genetic gifts (and their hard work), but my understanding is that she has male levels of testosterone because she has testes. This seems a bit different to me than just being at the exceptional end of the normal distribution.
I've read elsewhere that she has the genetic condition Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). As an embryo, she began the male developmental pathway, thus testes. When the testes began producing testosterone her androgen receptors were not able to respond to the hormone, so male development halted. If she had complete AIS and her body was unable to respond to androgens at all, she'd have no advantage. In fact she'd be disadvantaged relative to other women who would be able to respond to what testosterone they do make. She appears to have a version of partial AIS -- she was not able to respond enough in utero to "appear" male as a baby nor enough to program her brain to be male; she is female (the default mammalian outcome) to herself inside her head and to her parents and community, but not in all aspects of her body. It does though seem she was/is able to respond enough to provide her with an advantage from the male level of testosterone, over women with female levels of testosterone.
7
I feel for Caster but I would have to agree with the ruling.
Intersex people vary widely (other examples are Foekje Dillema or Maria José Martínez-Patiño). So where is the line that makes a man a man and a woman a woman? Internal testes? no uterus? chromosomes? Its a hard distinction to make when you have natural genetic outliers.
Differences in men and women are of course not all based on testosterone. But, the fact that it is a disproportionately large component in manifesting that difference coupled with the reality that testosterone plays such a large role in an athlete's ability, it would be reasonable to come to the conclusion that a ruling like this (i.e. splitting the divisions based on testosterone levels) is necessary.
7
@MM
The Y chromosome makes an individual male and is the determining factor. Women do not have Y chromosomes.
4
@Earthling
I wish it was as simple as that. People can have whats called a genetic mosaic. Check out the other people I provided as examples.
Early on I realized that I was discriminated against in sports because I was not very muscular. The guys with the big muscles were always on the team and winning. Hopefully we can see how unfair that is now.
They should be required to take muscle reduction drugs to level the playing field.
4
Maybe there should be different "testosterone classes" in running, just like there are different "weight classes" in boxing. Doesn't matter what your sex is or your gender is - you merely get your testosterone level checked prior to competition (like the weigh-in before a boxing match) and you compete in the category of "testosterone above 6" or "testosterone below 6" (or whatever arbitrary cut-off is chosen.)
7
@GBR
OK, what’s after that? NBA teams only for those under 6-ft 4”,because 7-footers have too big an advantage?
@Jojojo
No, not at all. What makes this case different than any other "natural biologic advantage (such as Michael Phelps' atypical proportions or a 7'6" basketball player) is that we have separate "mens" and "womens" leagues in sports _specifically because_ of recognized advantages conferred by "maleness" (And you can think of "maleness" as a result of exposure to high levels of testosterone during development and growth.)
It's an over simplification and misleading to contend that Ms. Semenya is being treated differently simply because she has unusually high testosterone levels for a female athlete. Ms. Semenya also has a Y chromosome and internal testes. She does not have ovaries or a uterus. In light of her rare anatomical features, should she be permitted to compete against athletes with significantly lower levels of testosterone, with a different genetic profile (XX), who lack testes, and who have organs common to most females? I don't think there is a simple answer. But it's misleading to overlook the entirety of the evidence and simply characterize Ms. Semenya as a woman with higher than normal testosterone.
32
Should we ban anyone over 7 feet tall from playing basketball since being that tall gives them a huge natural advantage?
Should Michael Phelps be banned from competitive swimming because his arm span and VO2 max are not normal?
Why is it that once again a woman excelling is being put down?
4
@Jay Lagemann
It’s the whining people getting whupped by Semenya who are throwing her under the bus. This woman is being attacked by other women who can’t beat her.
@Jay Lagemann
Biologically this athlete is male - she has Y chromosomes, internal testes, never had ovaries or a uterus. Her testosterone levels are so high that they don't overlap in any way to female levels. She should compete as a male.
2
@Jay Lagemann - Zero men benefit from this ruling. The investigation was instigated by female athletes who felt they were not competing on a level playing field.
1
Honestly, I'm with her on this one. She's good. She's very good. She's very good because a) she worked her butt off to get there and b) she has a genetic condition that enhances her physical abilities. There's basketball players with similar stories. Nobody is 7'7'' tall naturally, and there have been two NBA players at that height. The Olympics were always at least partially about how lucky you get physically, and she hit the genetic jackpot.
2
@Amanda
The genetic condition she has that makes her good is called a "Y chromosome". Why should she be allowed to compete with the women, and all the other people with Y chromosomes have to compete with the men?
5
@Amanda - The investigation was instigated by female athletes who felt they were not competing on a level playing field. .
1
All elite athletes are genetic outliers at the far extremes of the distributions of human variation, whether you are talking about a woman with exceptionally high testosterone or 7 foot tall basketball players.
Caster Semenya's 'advantages' are ones she was born with, the same as any other elite athlete (who hasn't been using drugs). As far as I can see it there are two alternatives. Accept that she is just another example of elite athletics drawing in the extremes of the human genetic envelope and allow her to compete as normal in the women's division. Otherwise, if testosterone levels are truly so exceptionally important in determining performance in middle distance races then we ought to be dividing athletes into divisions on the basis of testosterone level, not sex.
6
Since I was a kid in school there was always some other girl faster, stronger and more physically adept than the rest. She was usually labeled a tomboy. But we still ran our school yard and neighborhood races and picked up the bat with the hope that she wouldn't catch that long high drive even though she always did. You played with and competed against her and if your head was wired right ,it made you try harder and up your game. To compete against excellence shouldn't be viewed as a disadvantage and therefore excellence should be disqualified from competing. Geez, even as a kid we didn't whine about the 'tomboy '. We just tightened our laces and ran.
3
Until the international sport authorities start policing and regulating men's bodies in the same way, I'll be unconvinced this isn't sexist at its core. Women weren't able to compete in the ski jump until 2014. The IAAF didn't sanction women running in marathons until 1979. 1979! That organization, like all international sports authorities, has a long and sordid history of sexism and racism.
The reality is that ALL professional athletes have some sort of genetic/born-with-it advantage. There's a reason why the NBA isn't filled with 5' players, just as there's a reason why there are no 6' gymnasts on the Olympic podium. Sports favor certain body types, regardless of gender. It should also be pointed out that Semenya has lost races. Will the governing authorities insist that her betters be tested now too?
And then let's see how absolutely absurd it is that Semenya now has to dope in order to compete. Because that is what these suppressants are -- they're hormone-altering drugs.
12
@Kai - Zero men benefit from this ruling so not clear why you think this is sexist. The investigation was instigated by female athletes who felt they were not competing on a level playing field. Following your line of argument, there should be no distinction between men and women's sports and it should all be integrated. I don't think that would work out well for women athletes at all. Ms Semanya is the thin edge of the wedge in this case.
7
@Kai
Semenya would not need to dope if he would simply admit that, having a Y chromosome and undescended testes, he is actually male and should properly be competing against other males, and not against women over whom he has an unfair advantage.
2
@Kai
The anti-woman sexists attacking her, ironically,are other women.
If tests like this are approved, they should be applied to men's sports as well. No American football players weighting more than 180 lbs., no basketball players over 6' 2" for starters. If there is fraud, throw the book at them, but every exceptional player has some physical trait that helps them excel in their particular sport.
4
"Most women . . . have natural testosterone levels of 0.12 to 1.79 nanomoles . . . while the normal male range after puberty is much higher, at 7.7 to 29.4 nanomoles per liter. "
Looking at these numbers, I find it also unfair for women of 0.12 to compete against women of 1.79, or men of 7.7 to compete against men of 29.4, isn't it?
If testosterone is the "single most important factor," then treat it as such. Rather than separating athletic events into women or men, separate by testosterone levels. So, regardless of biological or gender identity, all athletes to compete within their given testosterone level - like the weight divisions in boxing, judo, etc. We can also think about combining gender AND testosterone level - so as in "Women's under 0.2 division," to closely match the likes of boxing and judo.
When some ruling body says discrimination is "necessary and reasonable," that ruling instantly loses all its credibility.
Discrimination is NEVER EVER necessary or reasonable. There is no equity or integrity in the ruling that supports discrimination.
8
@BLOG joekimgroup.com You missed the part about Semenya having a Y-chromosome and internal testes. Your example doesn't apply here. I'm as liberal as it gets (well, maybe I'm not judging on some of the comments here, but I'm pretty darn liberal), and this ruling DEFENDS the integrity of women's sports, not the opposite.
6
@BLOG joekimgroup.com - Following your line of argument, there should be no distinction between men and women's sports and it should all be integrated. I don't think that would work out well for women athletes at all. Ms Semanya is the thin edge of the wedge in this case.
1
If you want an exclusive category of sports competition, you must define who is eligible for that category. You then need to enforce those requirements and exclude people.
If you object to "the offensive practice of intrusive surveillance and judging of women’s bodies, which has historically haunted women’s sports" (Mrs. Semenya's statement), I don't understand how an exclusive category could be maintained. I would be interested in Mrs. Semenya's thoughts on this.
If the category is exclusive, by definitoin there must be some criteria, and an independent party who verifies that the criteria is met. All this hemming and hawing about how difficult it is to define the essence of womanhood is clearly not going to further our understanding of the problem at hand.
Perhaps instead of "women's" sports, we should just have "low testosterone" sports. This would surely have its own share of "unfair" categorizations" of men and women, but in my line of work we have a saying "garbage in, garbage out". When the definition of "woman" is so difficult, you will not be able to please everyone.
14
Three thoughts:
1- it is difficult to see how Caster Semeya’s extraordinary biological gifts are fundamentally different from the extraordinary biological gifts (height, strength, hand-eye coördination, VO2 max capacity) of other world champions in other sports. Maybe because testosterone levels are easy to measue in plasma, and are associated with gender. Wouldn’t the argument that Ms Semenya has some kind of ‘unfair advantage’ apply to nearly every world-class athlete? Wouldn’t this argument extend to high-IQ kids outperforming on the SATs? Read Kurt Vonnegut’s classic novella, ‘Harrison Bergeron’ to see the logical outcome of this line of reasoning.
2- the headline of this article is misleading. She is not ‘fighting hormone testing.’ She is fighting to compete in her natural state, rather than being required to compete only after being injected repeatedly with synthetic chemicals that are designed to make her worse at her sport. Maybe this is what the IAAF means by ‘anti-doping.’
3- in a country which really needs heroes and inspiration, Caster Semenya is a national treasure. Hardworking, courageous, gracious, giving, and the fastest female middle-distance runner in the world. Why complicate a beautiful story? So someone less fast can win?
25
@Peter. Bingo! Next up, people who are “too tall” will be banned from basketball.
4
@Peter - The investigation was instigated by female athletes who felt they were not competing on a level playing field. Following your line of argument, there should be no distinction between men and women's sports and it should all be integrated. I don't think that would work out well for women athletes at all. Ms Semanya is the thin edge of the wedge in this case.
4
She is a woman born with higher than usual testosterone levels, but she has done nothing illegal to augment them. She is as she was made, and she happens to be a great athlete. There is no reason she should be penalized for what nature intended for her.
20
@sues
Does she have enough testosterone to compete with low-testosterone men? “Male” and “female” are the problem here.
4
@sues
Is she? How do you determine if somebody is a woman or a man? Testing supposedly determined that she has "intersex traits" but we don't know anything more specific than this.
If you had a clear alternative standard on what differentiates a woman from a man, it would be much easier to get behind your argument.
But the only standard we have is the one the IAAF has published: based on testosterone levels. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the test. (or why the IAAF shouldn't be the body responsible for setting the standard).
8
Caster Semenya is an awesome runner. Ms. Semenya has an advantage beyond her competitors due to her unique gender character.
1
“...unique gender character.”
And that’s the difference here: a question of gender—not talent, or hard work, or natural ability—which gives her an unfair advantage over women with clearly female characteristics, biology, and testosterone levels.
1
To the extent that the testing applies only to XY females it is particularly discriminatory because XY females identified as female at birth are prima facie resistant to testosterone anyway. There is really no evidence that XY females benefit in competition from elevated testosterone.
2
@APS Females have the androgen receptor (i.e., the protein that binds to and propagates the effects of testosterone) just like males. Indeed, the presence of this receptor and the biological events it causes is one of the reasons why women produce low levels of testosterone.
4
@Rob-Chemist If XYs processed testosterone like men they would have been labelled male at birth in rural parts of developing countries and this discussion wouldn't be happening. 'They' are not processing testosterone like 'the rest of us' and there is reason to doubt its contribution to their athletic performance.
1
@APS
There is no such thing as an XY female, as the presence of a Y chromosome is the marker of maleness.
The science illiteracy displayed in these comments is mind-boggling. Did no one take Biology or Genetics in school?
3
She is an exceptional woman. She is hard-working and her body is made to excel at this sport. That is why she wins. We are basically forcing a woman of color to be drugged in order to make her less exceptional so that other women do not have to face her superiority at the sport. The judgment is condoning abusive behavior towards exceptional women of color, and exceptional women in general. I am disgusted that anyone thinks it is right to limit the talents of any woman in this way. It is a human rights abuse.
12
@GYA
This has nothing to do with race. 'She' is a biological male - she has benefited from male level testosterone all her life which confers heavier bones and muscles, larger heart, greater lung capacity, more hemoglobin than normal female levels. She also has Y chromosomes, internal testes, no ovaries. She should compete against males.
5
I'm not b being sarcastic with my comment here;
Is there any talk of eventually having one competition for all genders, sexes, etc for each track and field event? Fastest and strongest humans who qualify regardless of what gender they are? Has this ever been promoted or even tried in history?
2
@john Yes, it was called sports before women's sports. World-class women are not competitive against state champion high school boys in most events.
21
@john - THe NYTimes had an article on this yesterday as part of the CAS scientific argument for their ruling. They took the fastest times for the 400m for women in 2017, which were also the fastest times in history and compared these to men's 400m races in 2017. More than 10,000 men and boys beat the women's fastest times. If you integrated all sports, aside from very few exceptions, women's competitive sports after age 14 would disappear
8
@Sipa111
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it.
Her physiology gives her a natural advantage. Is that not the case for many in athletics? Will runners with legs of length beyond some arbitrary length be required to shorten them?
...Andrew
4
This is sexism plain and simple.
Hormone levels follow a normal curve distribution. It's not unexpected that some athletes are outliers in that distribution. She's so good at what she does that the sport cannot accept that the benefit she's gotten from her naturally occurring hormone levels is fair, but every athlete, especially at that elite levels, has some advantages.
So why not test men's hormone levels and for the ones that peak out and force them to take testosterone blockers to get back inside specific levels? How is that not the exact same advantage?
Height really helps in the NBA so why aren't we limiting the height of athletes to 6'6' to level that playing field? The answer is that the playing field was never level to begin with. Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan and so many others exemplify remarkable athleticism. Why is it when a woman excels at the same level in her sport society needs to paint that as unfair?
11
@Joanna
"Height really helps in the NBA so why aren't we limiting the height of athletes to 6'6' to level that playing field?"
While no one ever limited the height of athletes in the NBA there is a long history of rule changes to both disadvantage big men (C and PF) and advantage wings (SF, SG, and PG) all with the purpose of making basketball more exciting. This includes rule changes like widening the key, the addition of a three second violation, and even the addition of the three point line. In fact, the three point line has become such a potent offensive tool in today's NBA that there's an ongoing debate about whether it should be changed to decrease the offensive homogeneity that is evolving among teams.
I'll admit I don't entirely understand the ruling on Semanya but while I do think that comparing her situation to that of NBA big men makes sense at first, it breaks down the more you try to prove that comparison.
8
@Joanna
Per NYT article yesterday, normal testerone has huge variations : 295 to 1150 for men, 12 to 61 for women.
The “Caster” standard (which measures differently) has females at .12 to 1.79. Normal male has 7.7 to 29.4. Caster needs to be below 5 for six months if she wants to compete in mid-distances.
Even at 5, she has a huge competitive advantage over other females.
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@Joanna No, testosterone levels are highly bimodal. You're exactly backwards.
If, say, lung capacity was as highly bimodal as testosterone - and people were basically either like Michael Phelps or me - then we'd have to decide if we thought it was a good idea for the small-lunged people to excel at swimming. If we thought it mattered, we'd have two classes and testing and drama over people who were somewhere between the two peaks.
As someone who supports women being able to excel in sports, I support this. If you eliminate sex segregation in sport, you just go back to men's sports. This is why they are creating a female Nordic Combined; it had been anyone-goes but women haven't been competitive in decades. Pretty good high school boys can routinely outrun elite female runners.
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Let her make public full medical records and tests and then the public can decide if she is being individually targeted or whether the CAS is making a courageous ruling as we have more intersex and transgender athletes.
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Exactly: she has refused to release prior genetic testing, which makes me believe it severely undercuts her case. Those results, or new ones, should be a requisite before any potential change to her status.
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Great idea! You first.
"The decision of the C.A.S. will not hold me back. I will once again rise above and continue to inspire young women and athletes in South Africa and around the world.”
As well as me, a 75 year old white Jewish man in living in New York.
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While Semenya's case has implications for the discrete issue of transgender athletes, it is important to remember that her case is not about transgenderism. She is not transgender (as the term is typically used today), as she has never lived or identified or been socially recognized as male. She has never transitioned from one gender to another. She is simply a female with hyperandrogenism.
It is a ludicrous denial of reality to suggest that hyperandrogenism does not confer an advantage on an athlete competing in women's sports, and it's a sad commentary on our discourse that something that banal has to be stated explicitly. Nonetheless, it would be very unfair to prevent Semenya and others like her from competing as themselves. Her advantage is natural, no different from that of a very tall basketball player or a very large left tackle. She did not take drugs to acquire her testosterone levels. In fact, human genetic outliers--very tall, very limber, very strong, testosterone heavy--are precisely what make elite sports elite. Should we institute a height limit in the NBA, since short people are unfairly disadvantaged there? If not, how can you support the penalties imposed on Semenya?
But again, this case specifically is not about transgender athletes. We should resist those--both dishonest transphobes and opportunist trans activists--who are trying to appropriate her situation and make it about something it's not.
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@The Quietist
She has a built in testosterone delivery system - internal testes. No woman with normal testosterone levels can successfully compete against her.
@The Quietist
That’s such an important point. Unfortunately, transgender activists, who vastly outnumber people with intersex conditions, have exploited intersex rights advocacy for their political agenda; they loom over this controversy. They’ve used the same strategy vis-a-vis homosexuality. The acronym LGBTI is an embarrassing concoction designed to benefit transpersons and transgender ideology at the expense of gays and people with intersex conditions, for whom public sympathy is much greater.
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@The Quietist
it is natural to be a male. so what. if you have testes, if you have hormones from those testes same as any other male, if you have XY chromosmes, if you have no uterus, if you have no ovaries, you are not a female.
naturally!
Testosterone levels vary greatly among men, too. Is anyone suggesting that men with high levels take testosterone-inhibiting drugs to out of "fairness"? Why only women? In fact, why not say that tall people have an unfair advantage in basketball?
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@jsmethur The lowest testosterone serum levels among men are much, much higher than the highest among women.
Women generally range from roughly 700-3,000 pmol/L. Men generally range from 6,000-46,000 pmol/L depending on age. The low end of the range for an over-50 man is more than 2x the high end of the range for a woman. Under-50 men (most athletes are under 50) start around 10,000 pmol/L, well more than 3x the high end for women.
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Perhaps we need a third category for "others" where intersex athletes like Semenya could compete without taking hormone suppressants.
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I am an active organizing volunteer for the sport my teenager participates in. At competitions, both sexes participate in but are segregated by sex and age. I’ve seen some of these kids since they were 7 or 8 and they are now nearing the end of high school.
Kids who develop earlier, get faster earlier. Late bloomers catch up eventually. Taking into account puberty, boys are faster and more powerful; they’ve got the muscle mass. They have the testosterone. Elevate a girls testerone levels and she’ll undoubtedly speed up.
Caster may have been born that way but when her testosterone levels are so much higher than other females she has a clear unfair advantage over other females in certain sporting events.
Per a NYT article yesterday, female athletes will high levels of testosterone are over represented in Olympics and other world middle-distance running championships 1700:1 compared to the general female population. Inflate women’s testosterone levels high enough and they will eventually look like East German swimmers.
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@Not Chicago No one inflated Caster's testosterone levels.
Using the same approach as the NYT article you cite, Jamaican male runners are massively over represented in sprints, East Africans in middle distance. etc. Its not a compelling argument.
If IAAF are going to class outliers as different, then it should make a separate competition for that class and give it the same prize money. Telling an outlier that they must drug themselves to become normal enough to fit in existing classes is anti-sport.
Or they could just let naturally gifted athletes do their thing...
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There are two choices here: make the world fair for rare people like Caster Semenya, or make the world fair for everybody else.
Either way, it's not fair to somebody. The only reasonable solution is to be fair to the most people.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport got this right. It's also true that it's not fair for Semenya, and I feel badly for her and others in her position. But she has a biological advantage far beyond any normal variations in biology. As long as we agree that it is appropriate to separate men and women in sport because of the vast difference in biologic potential, we have to conclude that high levels of testosterone provide too much of an advantage to the women who have them.
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@ES
Completely agree. There is scientific proof that she has a significant advantage based on the levels of testosterone in her body. Her supporters would seemingly prefer that all other competitors have to adjust to her (which is impossible) rather than her adjusting to them. Classic case of the few or the one expecting the many to conform when it should be the other way around.
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@ES
This is *precisely* the definition of normal variation in biology. Everybody's biological characteristics vary along a wide spectrum. It is unreasonable to demand that all parameters of a woman's biological makeup fall into, frankly, arbitrary parameters. The top athletes in the world often have a top 1% biological characteristic that make them exceptional.
I'm with Semenya.
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@GW It's an example of an extreme outlier, not normal variation.
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