Decades ago the Supreme Court decided that all public schools must accept the children of illegals. It based its decision on the equal protection clause and the determination that the cost to the schools was not overly burdensome. For some reason, no one has brought a similar case regarding drivers licenses. There are plenty of lawyers who represent illegals. Why no one has brought a license case to court is beyond me.
20
@michjas
The Supreme Court decision you talk about (the "Plyler" dceisions) was rendered in 1982, in the heyday of liberal jurisprudence making legislative determinations thinly disguised as "constitutional" law. It was a close (5-4) decision with two of the majority (Blackmun and Stevens) being typical RINOs (Republican in name only) and a third being Lewis Powell, a patrician Virginia Republican with the guilties about Jim Crow who, after he and his generation of Virginians had benefited greatly from Jim Crow, tried to expiate the sins of his generation (along with those of his father and grandfather), by saddling young people two generations younger -- the Baby Boomer, Gen X and Millennial generations, who were not even born at the time of Jim Crow -- with the burden of rectifying those sins by putting the judicial imprimatur on the hokus pokus trope of "affirmative action" in the "Bakke" case.
Also, the Plyler decision was rendered in the absence of any federal law on the subject, and, since Congress is generally regarded as supreme in the area of immigration, a law today by Congress reversing Plyler might well stand up.
Finally, the majority in the Plyler case, in the manner typical of liberal jurisprudence, made the blithely false factual statement that educating illegal alien children would not involve any significant cost for the taxpayers -- one of the most grossly wrong factual mantras of the entire pro-immigrant lobby. Those costs are in fact substantial.
5
I once dated an undocumented Brazilian woman in Danbury, home to lots of Brazilians who, frankly, are willing to do work Americans believe is beneath their station.
Inequality addled Fairfield County wouldn't function well without immigrants who care for their children and landscape their properties.
Anyway, I bought a car for this woman so she could get a better job than drying cars off at a carwash in mid-winter. The mobility it provided helped her find a nanny job, enabled her to get provisions and have a modicum of freedom.
It was liberating and terrifying. She drove at exactly the speed limit on her forays to work in affluent Ridgefield. I learned most of the immigrants there are very law-abiding; they love it here, a country many had dreamed of coming to. The last thing she - or they - want is a cop encounter and possible deportation. As the car owner, I was terrified of potential liability, but doing the right thing outweighed my fear.
She worked hard, saved money (while paying the appropriate tax rate quarterly), met a man, got married, had two kids, got her green card and a little later her citizenship.
I'm glad to have helped in some way, but she's the one that earned what she has. And I'm honored to call a person of such character a fellow American.
We can do better. We can be kinder. We can be more decent. We can be more neighborly. We can be more welcoming.
These are people like you and me. People with dreams that matter, just as they do.
63
@Weasel
Legal immigrants, and their children and their children's children, are still working to achieve their dreams too! Working hard, taking tests, and then being told that another person has jumped the line and taken a slot, with lesser qualifications, because they have a harder hard-luck story being an illegal immigrant and all...
Glad you didn't face any liability as the car owner and it turned out well for you. Read all the comments of people hit by paperless immigrants with no licenses, and no money to buy car insurance, which is mandated for everybody else.
Either we are a law-abiding society with the established cultural norms, or we keep making excuses because the wealthy need to import wage slaves or else they can't function in their daily lives. I know which way I am voting!
103
@Midway
Thank you for your response.
If they could get licenses, which in my state requires insurance, that issue is resolved.
My example is one of a university overstay, but her outcome is no different than whether she was (un)documented: she met a man, - a middle class man - and married him. That act is available to any foreign national here, falling well within our law and order system.
Our cultural norms aren't normal. We have the world's most bloated incarceration complex (egged on by a switch-pulling mentality), and institutionalized inequality of opportunity and outcome in key areas like income, wealth, health, gender, race, ethnicity, education, the management/labor dynamic, etc. Our cultural norms transfer wealth and income to the whitest, the malest and the least needy while institutionalizing barriers to the rest. Given the monstrous results, picking on a few immigrants is bigotedly untoward and counter-strategic.
It's quite clear that much of the law and order system needs revising, but a polarized and gridlocked legislative branch, a hijacked judiciary increasingly stacked against the progressive zeitgeist and a relentlessly dishonest and bigoted executive are doing too much to dehumanize ("illegal immigrants" - for shame!) and little to engage in reform.
Until that time comes, I'll continue unrepentantly to lift my lamp beside the golden door and shun bigotry and xenophobia - and I'll vote for whoever shares that ethos.
Cheers.
8
@Weasel
Let me get this straight... we "break the rules" letting them enter, because good domestic help is hard to find in places like Connecticut; we're supposed to applaud you for helping a paperless immigrant "break the rules" by buying her a car to drive on our roads, with the only safeguard you holding your breath that she goes slow enough in traffic to avoid detection/getting pulled over; now we approve "breaking the rules" by allowing the paperless immigrants, who are not supposed to be working here, a state-sanctioned drivers' license... but, but... nobody is going to "break the rules" by not paying for mandatory car insurance?
Seriously? You don't seem to detect a pattern here, or understand which way this is going? Please don't aid and abet law-breaking that indeed harms others (legal workers, legal drivers.) You send the wrong message. It's really not so hard not to have children if you don't want to raise them, or to push a lawnmower or clean a toilet. Even in Connecticut. (get a smaller lawn, or hire local if you need help. If American workers are priced out of your area, shouldn't that tell you something? Remember: the Southern plantation owners couldn't live without their domestic help either, and we fought a war in this country to free those slaves. You're in the New North now...)
89
Anyone driving a vehicle should be required to have a license without restriction to documentation. It is common sense. As a citizen, I am required to insure my car, have my license renewed and my car registered--- all for the safety and welfare of the public as well as myself. Let's have everyone that drives have the same safeguards and that will make us all safer.
37
@jim
Why bother to carry insurance if you can't afford it?
Why bother to show up in court if you get in an accident?
Why bother to have papers when you cross the border?
57
@jim
Why should there be any need for licensing of any kind for undocumented aliens.
Remember, they are unlicensed all the way.
They should also be allowed to fly a plane without need for license.
Quickly they can visit their loved ones & be back for work.
At this rate the botheration of border controls also should go & in its place welcoming party for all prospective aliens should be set in place.
31
@jim:"Anyone driving a vehicle should be required to have a license without restriction to documentation."
Does that include undocumented drivers?
6
Sure --
give them the D/L,
just so long as they provide all the usual biometrics and have to prove driving ability and insurance coverage.
BUT -- since we all know that in the USA,
a D/L is de facto equivalent to an ID,
mark the front of the D/L, in large, conspicuous lettering,
"Presence in the USA is illegal".
Give them the proper "document" --
so they can no longer whine that they are "undocumented" -
just so long as the "document" states the actual facts,
nice and clear.
2
If the only the people who pretended to care about the law when it comes to the undocumented actually cared about it when the politicians fox tells them to love committed crimes.
They are driving...I had one drive right into my rear bumper without any insurance.
2
As a Democrat I find this editorial offensive. Granting driver's licenses to individuals that broke the immigration laws of this country only confirms that it's alright to be dishonest. What you call undocumented immigrants are cheaters. Some might pay taxes, but not all. Some engage in criminal activity as well. In the meantime, us law-abiding citizens not only have to pay taxes, we have to pay for car insurance and health care. These illegal trespassers get free education and healthcare. Those not affected directly by the impact of these individuals are very naïve and disconnected from reality. These "undocumented immigrants" lower our wages. If the jobs they take payed a decent salary, Americans would love to take those jobs.
5
Illegal immigrants should be arrested and deported. Period.
4
This.
This is the type of left leaning opinion piece that will give trump a second term. How tone deaf can this newspaper be?
Even the libs hate the idea.
Wake up!
4
Illegal immigration is a problem that can be solved by Congress and the Chief Executive.
To solve any problem, you need to look at root causes and address those.
You need also to ask who benefits from the problem not being solved.
Why are illegal immigrants in the US? Employment. You want to stop it, then mandate E-Verify and criminal penalties as in jail time for employers - no fines for big corporations as the cost of doing business.
Why has Congress failed to act on this problem, or acted and been blocked? Who benefits from Americans tearing each other apart over this issue, and that includes media talking heads who inflame the problem without offering realistic solutions.
What's the cost benefit analysis? Some corporations and people are making a LOT of money from the current chaos - who are they, how much, and who do they pay?
The country is headed for anarchy with laws treated with impunity, leaving lawful people frustrated, angry, and despairing.
Blaming only illegal immigrants accomplishes nothing without demanding that the people with the power who created this problem also be held accountable.
Many other laws in this country are routinely broken by those with power - use your brain to look for root causes and then the solutions will be clear.
5
Are the Dems trying to lose elections? Between this one and the let criminals vote rant, I have just one question.Have you all lost your minds? Since when is the whole world entitled to an American driver's license?
10
I want an American teen to apply for free college money that's going to illegals. Said teen should just show up, claim he's from Guatemala, and hold out his hand for free money. Why not?
70
Did you even read the article? It stated that undocumented students could apply for aid just like other students. They would not be treated any different than other students.
They violated our laws to be here. They work for less, drive down the wage scale—and send much of what they make back to their home country—all while waving its flag.
But by all means;
—let’s give them drivers’ licenses.
—let’s give them college tuition assistance.
—let us educate their children in our schools.
—let them receive medical attention in our hospitals, and hand us the bill—or...
—let’s give them free health care
—let’s give them free legal assistance
—let them sign up for public assistance
—let them vote in our elections
—let us provide sanctuary for their criminals
—let all liberal politicians provide encouragement
Yes, by all means, let’s roll out a huge, fluffy welcome mat—and then blame Trump as hordes of economic migrants rush our borders.
Let’s provide no physical barriers, or funding for border security, detainment facilities, technology or additional personnel—then blame Trump.
Let’s pass laws that favor the release of migrants who cross with children, then blame Trump, when thousands disappear into our country.
Let’s provide migrants with all the talking points to claim asylum, include no funding for additional judges, then blame Trump.
Let’s allow Liberal judges at the 9th Circuit to stymie every one of the Administration’s policies, then blame Trump.
Let the Liberal Media provide cover and amplification of every Democrat talking point—then blame Trump.
It’s easy to be a Liberal these days—do nothing and blame Trump.
98
ILLEGAL!
Why is it so hard for NYT to understand this word? If a person is in the country illegally he/she breaks the law. A lot of people wait a very long time to enter US legally, why should law breakers be rewarded?
82
I have been reading the comments and I wonder why we are so quick to blame the immigrants when we Voted in career spineless people into political office. Since the days of Regan we and I mean the public did not hold our politicians accountable to representing the public. Immigration neglect is like fully funded pension funds neglect. We work all our lives and these fly by politicians did nothing to make sure our pensions were funded. The flake politicians knew they would be out of office when the pension fund payment came due.
Corporate America hired immigrants so they wouldn’t have to pay Anericans fairly. Look at the work visas corporations get workers on the cheap. We go to colleges, have debt and corporations move the goal post. We allowed the unions to be destroyed who provided benefits and career opportunities
So look in the mirror and stop buying products from companies that exploit immigrants.
We the people need to hold these GOP accountable for 20 years of doing nothing. Accept our own inaction and hold these overpaid representatives accountable. Attend a town hall meeting and arrive with solutions that make sense.
Unless we have become animals like the Nazis and American plantation owners no child needs to ever be put in a cage and if we allow this to continue we are not Americans.
We can put a man in space we can resolve this issue. So let’s all get busy and we the people solve this issue created by corporate America.
9
You New Yorkers are as bad as Californians. You apparently can't be bothered to look at the experience of other states before considering a move like this.
Review what happened in New Mexico. They had the worst rate of uninsured drivers in the US and thought that giving licenses to illegal "immigrants" would improve upon this. Did it? No. It did nothing to increase the rate of insured drivers and produced an epidemic of fraud. The state became the go to location for illegal "immigrants" to get identification.
https://www.ibtimes.com/undocumented-immigrant-drivers-license-scam-new-mexico-man-sentenced-amid-state-1999357
https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico-drivers-licenses-fraud-caught/1019727078
64
Good. So the Times and it's faithful readers will welcome thousands of illegals sent by Trump from the border. They can be welcomed and issued drivers licenses when they are dropped off in Manhattan. Good idea.
47
Of course, the point might be raised that it’s really a matter of dealing with practical reality as practical reality actually exists.
But judging from a clown like Kris Kobach and the nutbar economic theory that Kansas is still struggling from, a Kansas right-winger would hardly have any interest in practical realities of any kind at all.
4
Oh really? And what does the all knowing Editorial Board have to say about its' subourning illegal activity? It is bad enough that illegals enter my country surreptitiously and lie to all about who they really are. It is illegal for illegals to obtain papers that let them vote. Undocumented illegals encourage tens of thousands of others throughout the world to do the same. They encourage their own economic and social exploitation by people and businesses who pay them a pittance and enslave them to a life of hardship and danger. Human trafficking is only one of the many barbaric outcomes of this utterly dangerous and criminal activity. Social and economic abuses will only get worse, far worse, if we don't stop illegal entries into our country and and deport those who are here illegally. Remember: It is a crime to enter illegally and harbor or employ illegal aliens.
48
far too simplistic. Ok let them drive but also deport them if they are here illegally. Why the times wants to protect people who have broken the law (from the consequences of their own actions) is beyond me.
35
Sure hope Trump sends many more thousands of illegal aliens to Albany and NYC. Free college education, driver’s licenses, utopia!
35
@Pvbeachbum
Isn't it interesting that NYC denied the same to gold star families?
33
Let's think about the math here. There are roughly 1 million illegal immigrants in New York state according to the NYT who pay collectively $1.1 billion in state and local taxes. That equates to ~$1,100 per person.
Now this factoid is meant to communicate that yes, illegal immigrants are a bonus to us, they pay their way, and ought to be entitled to use our roads legally. But is $1,100 really their fair share of taxes? Let's keep going with some math exploration shall we?
New York State income tax range in rates from 4% up to 8.82% but for someone who's income tops out at say $80k, is 6.33%. For simplicity though, let's just take 4% of say $30k which is a reaonable average income that to be earned by illegal immigrants doing unkilled labor. Now 4% of $30k is actually $1,200! And remember they should actually be paying higher amounts on all of the money over $8,500, we're just using the 4% lowest rate for simplicity and we find that illegals are already underpaying just on state income tax by $100 a person.
New York City, also levels a city income tax. The rate starts at 3% and goes up to ~3.8%. For simplicity though, let's just say it's only 3%. As it turns out 3% of that $30k would be another $900! So our illegal population is conservatively underpaying by $1,000 per person and that's assuming they owe $0 in sales taxes somehow. In short, they are a net drain on our state and local safety net, they cheat our tax coffers, and they do not deserve the right to drive.
34
The anti-immigration sentiment expressed in these comments is disheartening and frightening. The policies of the current occupant of the Oval Office aim essentially towards one of Ethnic Cleansing-clear and simple. This needs to be stated and faced. Living in Boston, I have yet to hear of an ICE raid at a construction site where Irish and Eastern Europeans, who entered the US at Logan Airport or who drove down from Canada are picked up. Or, of Asians entering through airports on the west coast being deported. No, this administration is focused only on the brown skinned people from the Southern Hemisphere.
Last I heard, White Americans are not knocking down the doors to work as maids in the hotel industry, bathroom cleaners, on farms or in meat packing plants, or in restaurants in the kitchens-or in any number of low paying jobs.
People come to this Nation seeking safety from violence, unstable governments, better schools and opportunities. They infuse our Nation with hope. Our birth rates are down and we need people.
Yes, we should give these poor immigrants and refugees the benefits of citizenship: social security numbers, drivers licences, access to health care. Bring them out of the shadows and make them full partners in the American economy: tax payers and contributors. We need their earnings and energy. And for those of you who do not agree with this, than you can pack up and leave.
1
@Rachel Bird
Not one recommend on this outrageous comment.
In the most liberal comment section in the country. Not one like.
4
I grow more intolerant of this whole issue every day.
I believe the country would suffer economically if suddenly all the illegal undocumented people were to disappear. Having said that, I suppose I’d rather be broadsided by a licensed driver than an unlicensed one.
The problem as everyone knows is a failure of our National Government to intelligently address our immigration policy.
The country would benefit if all these workers were working on the books and paying taxes.
Severely punish employers hiring illegal/undocumented workers and paying them off the books.
Require new immigrants to serve in the military.
Vote for candidates who will intelligently address the immigration
Issues, and in the meantime let these people ride bicycles.
14
Enough of this nonsense. I'm a naturalized American. It took me 19 years to do it the right way - the legal way. I waited my turn, I followed the rules, I played by the book. But after that difficult path, I have to wonder: Why should someone play by the rules if there are no repercussions to violating them?
73
Good idea NYT. The super rich pay little in taxes. Illegal/undocumented immigrants don’t have to comply with immigration laws. The rest of us pay hefty tax liabilities and comply with the law. Why make any pretext that the system is fair? Let everyone in, give them free services, let them drive. The super rich will exploit them and the rest of us will pick up the tab for services.
33
Here in Phoenix folks are happy to pay less for their yard work or new roof by having illegals do the work. Which requires illegals somehow get from home to work. Usually one worker in each construction crew drives, from what I've seen.
Preventing illegals from obtaining a driver's license almost guarantees they'll drive a beat up truck, not buy insurance, and flee if an accident occurs. This includes all the ladies who clean houses and hotel rooms, too.
America resists instituting reasonable immigration policy, and guest worker programs. Illegals who have worked here and never violated the law can be deported for so much as a traffic offense, even after decades. Guys like Arpaio pride themselves on hunting down brown men. They like the power trip of having everyone constantly fearful of law enforcement.
You can't have it both ways. Either deport 11M aliens, shut down ranching, farming, send meat, vegetable and produce prices sky high, double construction costs, or find a way to let these folks get to work.
Why not a "conditional" license that requires proof of auto insurance. Why not do that for everyone, not just illegals. Quit insuring cars and start insuring drivers.
6
Aldo needs to move to where public transportation is available. Better yet, go home and jump through the necessary hoops to gain legal entry to the US.
30
Right now, undocumented people are driving without licenses or with ill-begotten licenses in every state and probably in almost every town.
But here is the funny thing ..... I wonder how many U.S. citizens are driving without a license or with a suspended or revoked license, right now?
It could be a statistical 'dead heat.' Maybe? Maybe not.
1
If I didn't know any better, I would honestly find it plausible that there are stealth Trump operatives on the NYT editorial board. Otherwise I am continually amazed at how tone-deaf and out of touch you guys are not just with the electorate, but even your own left-leaning reader base.
This is idea is a complete non-starter. On top of the other article today about the 20% non-payment rate on buses, why does anyone bother to follow the law anymore?
53
Heck might as well let them vote too. Oh, yeah they already do.
22
In their never-ending quest to permit open borders without any reasonable controls over immigration, this may well be the most non-sensical column ever written by the NYT editorial board.
47
Amazong what the sane people on New York tolerate.
17
"Undocumented"? Can't bear to say illegal? Is it because reality is offensive, or hearing the word with fragile ears?
43
Or arrest them, deport them and call it good. Laws matter. Enforce them. Please. Any American hurt by an illegal alien allowed to remain in America by any government official ought to be charged with treason.
26
I swear, some days this paper seems like it is hell-bent on turning me into a Republican.
74
I once lived in the UK. I have two masters degrees from the London School of Economics and the University of Cambridge. I speak 7 languages. My father was a US diplomat and an Admiral in the US Navy. The last year I lived in London, I made $274,600.
When I overstayed my visa, I was asked to leave. I lost my job, and was given three months to return home. I desperately didn't want to return to the US. I had lived in the UK on and off for a decade, but I had no legal right to remain. I spoke the language. I went to their schools. I was friends with many of their citizens, but I had no legal right to remain, so I left.
If I hadn't left, I would have been a wanted criminal in the UK. As an American citizen living in England who went to Cambridge and made a great deal of money, I would have been a fugitive. I chose a different path. The people who remain in the US are presented with a more difficult choice, but not a dissimilar one.
They are criminals. They should be treated as such. It's not inhumane to do so.
257
@Souvient And that's why the UK is a failing economy . Americas greatness has been achieved over the decades because it always had more 'heart' that other white settled nations of the developed world. Absolutely, the US should and often does enforce the law but to do it without communication and heart cauterizes its mind. It great to learn that even a great achiever like you faces even 10% of the heartwrench that someone trying to find a way to legally make it gets shaken. Show some heart man !. There are far worse people inside than the bulk of immigrant dreamers trying to change the destinies for themselves and their children.
12
@Souvient Thank you! A crime is a crime is a crime. Don't soft-pedal crimes, Editorial Writers! If the Editorial Writers truly believe that "no one is above the law" and the courts should not "have one set of laws for the rich and another set of laws for the poor" then they need to start to prove it! You were a rich UK resident, and you weren't allowed to break the immigration law. Why should a poor person be enabled in breaking immigration laws? Why should a poor person be "above the laws"? I suspect crippling white guilt or noblesse oblige is blinding the editorial writers from the realities.
83
@Souvient- Whelp, your situation is incredibly dissimilar. One thing they might have in common is that yours' and another are equally distant from the moon.
Thank you for mentioning that other people's choice might be more difficult.
I hope you are doing well in the U.S.
11
I believe this is a misguided policy for a variety of reasons cited by commenters, but I'd bet this will increase the number of uninsured drivers on area roads. (People with marginal incomes don't always pay insurance). I also have a theory that uninsured/undocumented drivers are a large proportion of the growing number of highway drivers who are fond of driving several mph below the speed limit in the left lane creating further road hazards and more unbearable traffic slowdowns throughout the city's highways.
6
No way – this doesn’t pass the smell test and is unfair to law abiding New Yorkers. Your rationale indicates that a good share of hit and runs and uninsured motorists are undocumented immigrants. These are not minor offenses. This proposal will not only make New York even more of a mecca for undocumented aliens, but will further delay the establishment of comprehensive federal immigration policy.
26
Shall we let undocumented immigrants get drivers-licenses?
IDs? In 2014 (not today), Pew estimated that our population was 3% illegal, undocumented immigrants. Undoubtedly, that figure has swelled in the past 5 years. So many illegal immigrants living and working in the U.S. and driving!
This is the reality of President Trump's harsh and unsolvable immigration policy today. Trump's draconian showdown over the wall (and his showdown over his taxes, and all the other showdowns he's facing) is coming to a head.
Allowing people who live here without benefit of citizenship -- to earn much higher wages and better standards of living than in their home countries -- means that these workers are driving while undocumented. No drivers-licences.
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo's idea to allow illegal immigrants to apply for drivers-licenses and financial-aid to attend college. Anti-immigrant sentiment in all areas where illegals have taken the jobs and salaries, threatening American citizens' livelihoods, will put the kibosh on better driving and schooling opportunities and IDs for undocumented workers.
7
Is it me, or is it that an “immigration” policy that favors those that can walk across the boarder (aka Latinos and Europeans) is racist? Have traveled to over 60 countries in the last 15 years. And while yes central America is screwed up. It is nowhere in the 10 top for places you would not want to be born in. Why is it that someone from central America who can get to the US boarder somehow deserves more attention than a Uyghur who is 5,000 miles form the US boarder and who faces much more oppression than any Guatemalan?
By allowing ourselves to feel sorry for those that washup on our shores, we allow ourselves to ignore those who live further away.
Lets get a true immigration policy.
24
No.
Some think it's already politically incorrect to speak in terms of "illegal aliens" and prefer the term "undocumented." Whither that term once we begin documenting?
The proposal is presented as a classic "do you want to cut off your nose to spite your face?" question: the reality is that there are millions of people living in the US who are not here legally; so let's mitigate problems by issuing these folk drivers licenses. But if people drive uninsured, are we mitigating problems or multiplying them? (show me the data on whether uninsured drivers is a bogeyman) Until there is consensus on what to do about the @ 14 million aliens who reside here illegally, and what our policy should/will be at the border, I do not support this proposal. People want to say Trump's made this an issue/crisis. He and his like-minded radical Republicans are barriers to a consensus solution; something which must change - create laws and enforce- don't game - them. But I've seen the realities of the immigration problem in this country - unaccompanied men living in suburban woods, multiple families violating fire codes in dwellings and, quite frankly, some people with attitudes of entitlement - so no, I don't want NY to be a lemming just because other states have chosen this path.
12
As always, if you're against illegal immigration you should be shouting from the rooftops in favor of E-verify. If there was no work, the numbers of illegal immigrants would drop significantly. As long as they can find work, and employers (like Mr. Trump) keep hiring them, they will come. I don't blame people for wanting to coming the the US. I do blame those who employ them and keep them coming.
25
it is these types of ideas that turn an average Jane away from the Democrat Party. A driver's license is a national ID. Get it, and you are fully legal: you can fly, open a bank account, check into hospital/hotel, etc. I once was rear-ended by illegal immigrant in IL: she did have a DL, but had no insurance since she didn't bother to get it: and the law couldn't go after her financially since she was illegal and thus had "no job". Give them driver's licenses, and you have as well as legalized them. Go ahead, libs: keep proposing abolishing ICE, opening up borders, and giving them illegals DLs. See ya at the election booth.
186
@Yulia Berkovitz
A DL may be considered as an ID. But not as evidence that you are in the coutry legally.
Only passports, geen card and visas do.
People who pay 1 billion dollars in taxes have jobs already.
And why would they be left on the street if they get sick, or why would their children not go to school.
And the fact is that they drive cars, but in most circumstances they probably cannot get insurance.
Making sure with sanctions that every driver is insured who be more reasonable.
There must be other ways to control immigration than refusing anyone a DL, except possibly to felons
5
@Max Lewy You are being coy, and know it. Most natural born citizens I this country have no passport or green card, just a birth cert. in everyday life, the DL is all most of us do. I am naturalized and this have that cert instead of the birth one, but no passport or visa. To provide a legal ID to an illegal is to legalize her. Dixi.
33
@Yulia Berkovitz--On the other hand, it's these types of ideas that make lots of average Janes support the Democratic Party. A party that is reasonable, rational and empathetic. The undocumented are there because of the failure of government to keep them from entering and because of greedy, exploitative employers like Mr. Trump, whose golf courses, hotels and resorts are awash in undocumented workers. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. Trump has turned millions from the Republican Party. See ya at the election booth.
10
Nope.
27
Whatever benefit allowing illegal immigrants to drive will bring, it will also encourage even more people to attempt to illegally enter the U.S.
.
Do the NY Times editors have any limit to the number of illegals they want to enter the country?
51
@HH. Of course there's no limit. And all illegals have to come from south of the border because the NYTimes editorial board members need brown people to do their manual labor. It's so racist and sad. Let illegals to just make u[ a name (they're undocumented, remember?), whatever name they want, for a license, while I have to practically give blood to prove my identity.
20
If a single penny of my tax dollars go to pay the tuition of an illegal, I will be furious. Deport them all, quickly.
56
@DRS You may want to sit down for this...under the Pataki Bill, "dreamers" (children born abroad but brought here by their parents) who attended high school in the US are already eligible for NY state aid for College. But this is not the worst thing that can be done with our/your tax dollars. Eventually the "dreamers" issue will be settled; and it is a positive to have better-educated people walking around.
4
bad idea. send them home
38
CT gives licenses to the 'undocumented' but most still don't get insurance. They would rather pay the fine knowing that they will likely not be caught and can't really be sued if they cause an accident.
And if they have fake papers for work, they can present fake papers for a real state ID. All of which would be felony fraud for citizens. 'Living in the shadows' means exemption from the same legal accountability.
California gives drivers licenses to illegal migrants and now automatically registers everyone who gets a license to vote. How do they separate the two? Or do they really?
153
@CNNNNC--Millions of U.S. born citizens drive without insurance, and can't be sued if they cause an accident. Why is it any worse to be hit by an undocumented driver without insurance than a U.S. citizen without insurance?
6
@CNNNNC
It seems like the goal should be to design systems in which no one is living in the shadows. This is not only "equal protection", it is preventing exploitation that ultimately affects all of us.
This implies that once someone is here, they should be able to work openly or report crimes or go to a hospital or do anything else (except vote or hold certain sensitive jobs), and this includes driving a car.
2
This is a terrible idea. Flouting immigration laws enables law-breakers. Why not invest your time and your energy in assisting law-abiding citizens, including law-abiding immigrants who obey immigration laws by obtaining green cards; who correctly follow the immigration legalization process; who contribute to their communities ethically, educationally, artistically, philanthropically; who show clear respect for constitutional democracy which is founded on legal DUTIES as well as rights? Enabling criminals is akin to aiding and abetting. I agree with Trump that sanctuary cities should put up or shut up: if you personally believe in protecting illegal immigrants, then house them in your apartments. New York City (if anyone there agrees with this editorial) can give sanctuary to all of the illegal immigrants, who are economic migrants making a beeline for American jobs.
111
@Iris
Evidently you missed the opening clause of this article: "As long as Washington remains unable to deliver comprehensive immigration reform, ..."
There are nearly as many reasons for a resident to be undocumented as there are undocumented residents, and the widespread assumption that all undocumented immigrants are in flagrant violation of existing immigration law is disingenuous and cruel, as is the notion that they are all greedily seeking to displace American workers for their own economic gain. Of course many people come here to improve their lives; should this in itself be morally suspect?
Yes, illegal immigration is a genuine and urgent matter for the US to deal with - along with nearly every advanced nation on earth. The reason is as simple as it is obvious: if you and your family are drowning, of course you will seek to climb onto the nearest life raft.
I completely agree with your notion of personal responsibility, and I extend that principle to the responsibility of the US government to formulate a clear, comprehensive, and compassionate immigration policy, and enforce it consistently. Until the US government does that, as the other half of the opening sentence points out, "... states will be left to decide how to deal with the millions of undocumented immigrants who are a part of their communities and the work force."
And that is exactly what this policy attempts to accomplish.
7
@Iris--Don't blame the migrants for making a beeline for American jobs. Blame the employers who hire them for those jobs, for they are the ones who keep the undocumented coming. The promise of a job, even a job that pays a pittance, is enough to make these migrants travel thousands of miles. If that promise evaporated, it they knew there was not a chance of supporting themselves, many, if not most, would think twice. I do not blame people for wanting a better life. I blame the greedy, exploitative employers who offer them jobs and make them work in sometimes horrific conditions. Stop the employment and you'll stop the migrants.
7
@Iris
You ran to criminals pretty quickly there. If we just deported all those "illegals" (the brown ones, right- we like the Sweedish looking ones) we would empty out prisons, eliminate disease, reach 110 percent employment, and enter a golden age of supreme happiness.
We're talking about requiring people to take the driving test, get their photo taken, and get insurance before they drive cars, right? Your response seems more than a little hyperbolic.
1
But to be clear, I, as a law abiding citizen must have all my documents in order, right? Be on the right side of my tax payments to the state, have insurance, make sure my wages are reported correctly, and follow thru on all communications from the State forthwith. Correct? The insanity of the Left on display.
147
@JMR--Oh please. Not all U.S. citizens are law abiding, and you know it. Plenty of American citizens don't pay tax, don't have insurance, work under the table for cash and have no wages reported. Don't play naive. There are as many citizens skirting the law as there are undocumented.
7
@Ms. Pea And the Americans you are talking about are the least likely to vote. And if they do vote, guess who they vote for?
4
What about requiring illegal aliens to have liability insurance?
54
@Left Handed
How about all drivers?
3
"Undocumented" is a euphemism for "Illegal".
The United States is respected worldwide for its stable government and justice system.
Too many "progressives" are denigrating the American justice system and eroding the value of obeying the laws.
Promoting "rights" for "Illegal" immigrants undermines our system of laws as does the NYC policy of ignoring subway turnstile jumpers and bus passengers refusing to pay.
41
No. They are already in violation of our laws by being here. You can't make that suddenly okay by making their status as deliberate law breakers sound like a clerical error. To me, anyone calling illegal actions "undocumented" is engaging in magical thinking, and is not to be trusted.
The focus ought to be on what harm or good this will bring to our society. Aldo got here by sneaking in; he stays here by lying about it. So we already have a pretty good idea of how he will conduct himself under pressure. Ask yourself:
How will Ado afford insurance? Why should he bother?
Does Aldo read English fluently?
Is Aldo going to pay to enroll in/pay for/successfully complete Driving School?
What will compel Aldo to pay traffic/parking tickets?
Will Aldo pay what it takes to get his car inspected legally? Or will he skip that and buy a black market sticker for $100?
Aldo will do what Aldo feels necessary; he will skip over the parts that are in his way. This isn't conjecture based on stereotypes; it is his track record so far.
29
"he said of the police, “and you’re fearful.”
Gosh, how horrible that someone who is a lawbreaker is fearful of the police.
To me, it is simple. If any branch of the government is aware that an individual has committed a crime, be that crime rape, murder, or illegal entry/residence, that body has a moral obligation to report that fact to the appropriate law enforcement organization and assist in any way possible, in the apprehension and conviction of the lawbreaker. That moral obligation should, in my opinion, be codified into a legal one as well.
The government should not be working to make the lives of those in violation of its own laws easier.
28
Not sure about much of the negative comments here. If undocumented immigrants are driving, which a huge number likely are, why not license them?
1
@Fred. How do they even prove their age?
7
The usual hogwash on related topics. "They" pay lots of taxes each year - how, with stolen SS numbers and false identities?That "contribution" somehow merits the granting of benefits? When I (legally) visit a foreign country, I pay VAT and other local taxes on purchases, hotel, etc., but that comes with no "reward" for it whatsoever.
Somehow these proposals to make us "safer" all seem to presuppose that these illegal aliens are skilled in driving in the US. We certainly have more than enough poor rivers on the road as it is - adding even more who do not speak English or understand our systems will do nothing to improve safety.
Yes, they will "have to pass the same tests" we are told, but frankly I don't doubt yet another "advocacy" group will scream that even that is unfair and discriminatory and some special accommodation will be made.
The bottom line is this gives government sanction (approved by venal legislators, not the people) to people who have no right to be in this country. And it creates yet another incentive to come here, furthering the inane mixed messages we send to the world.
33
@George S My sentiment exactly, but be very careful using the word “ illegal” as a noun in The Times, I was attacked as though I was encouraging euthanizing babies by commenters for this transgression yesterday. “ They will have to pass the same tests”, well not exactly, the last time I went to the DMV in San Mateo California some Asian and Hispanic test takers had with them “ interpreters”, authorized or not I have no idea, but I do know the street signs aren’t in Spanish or Mandarin, yet. Incidentally the same is a prevalent practice at the Social Security office in San Mateo where a preponderance of Asians apply for S.S. in some form or another with the help of an interpreter, Ive always wondered how that worked, I know they are given some sort of manual on how to get freebies when they arrive and please before the limousine liberals start attacking me as a racist I should mention that information was given to me by my best friend since we were kids, Jeffrey, an ABC, American born Chinese to those unfamiliar with how they refer to themselves and btw are just as unhappy as the rest of us about the changes to San Francisco brought about by unfettered immigration and tech, they have kids and grandkids just like the rest of us who played by the rules and now have to navigate their way through the homeless as they compete with those who fast tracked their way here legally or otherwise.
11
In other words, because illegal immigrants have already broken the law by entering the country, and continue to do so by remaining and working, society should continue looking the other way. Because they are already driving illegally - and many don't speak English and can't read the signs -we should give them licenses). And, because, like all people, they and their children also need housing, medical care, food, education, the taxpayers should provide them, as well as shouldering the burden of uninsured drivers' accidents.
The problems attendant to illegal immigration will drain society for generations. Until we enforce the law and penalize all those who employ illegal immigrants (I'm tired of subsidizing their businesses), the situation will continue to spiral and worsen.
31
Insanity. I don't live in NY but visit often. I will not feel "safer" knowing that people who violate our immigration laws have been licensed to comply with our traffic and safety law.
Immigrants who are in the country illegally are not "undocumented," a loaded word meant to gloss over their wrongdoing. With the exception of those brought into the country as young children through no fault of their own, they either intentionally overstayed a tourist visa or entered the country without inspection. They have engaged in fraud and we should do what virtually every country in the world does: make it virtually impossible for such people to live illegally here.
Want to go live illegally in Brazil? Guess what? You won't just not get a driver's license, you won't be able to get cable TV or internet, buy or rent a home, etc. Brazil (and the vast majority of other countries) don't need walls to discourage illegal immigration -- they have common sense laws that are better than walls.
So here we have The New York Times, which opposes walls, sensible reform of asylum laws, and virtually any proposal to make it harder to come to the United States illegally. And now you want to make it even easier to live here illegally? Please. They are not "undocumented," they are illegally in the United States. Any sensible jurisdiction would welcome them at the motor vehicle registry and immediately turn them over to ICE for deportation.
31
"There are an estimated 725,000 undocumented immigrants in New York State, making up more than 5 percent of the labor force in 2016, according to the Pew Research Center. They pay $1.1 billion in state and local taxes each year, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy estimates."
If 1/3 rd of these people attend school it is costing NY over $4billion just for education.
"Aldo, a 40-year-old Mexican working illegally in construction" In other words he is breaking the law. But the Times wants him to be able to drive to his illegal job?
"They could use foreign passports to establish their identity and obtain a standard driver’s license"
With these standard licenses they can fly on any airline, apply for welfare benefits, get subsidized housing, etc.
What a great idea!
20
Have you never watched Live PD?
The drunk guy driving the stolen pickup truck with no registration, no insurance, stolen license plates and no driver’s license that cannot speak English is almost certainly an illegal alien.
They stop a lot of those types of folks.
Who says they don’t drive now?
9
Ahh yes. Let them vote too. Then maybe Texas will turn blue. That's what all of this is really about, isn't it?
28
Undocumented immigrants are characterized as criminals for remaining in the US. This may be correct. But the true true villains of the piece are our national "leaders" who refuse to modernize our immigration laws to reflect the realities of the US's economy, society, and workforce. Making political hay is more important than harvesting our vegetables.
4
@Steve. And your California reps are complicit.
7
News articles should attempt to inform, not merely provide propaganda for one of two sides.
Americans need to be informed about the nature of illegal immigration. The NY Times suggests that it is an issue of morality. But if so, shouldn't that morality be based upon what that morality entails?
Nobody wants illegal immigrants to needlessly suffer. But it may be better to have laws that are strictly enforced than to constantly change the rules of admission to citizenship or qualification for benefits like a driver's license.
There are 17 million citizens of Guatemala. Most of them are poor, and the country is violent. Every day life is dominated by gangs. But Guatemala's population has quadrupled since 1960. For whatever reason, the poor of Guatemala have had large families for too long.
And plan to fight poverty in Guatemala has to include family planning so that poverty within the country does not continually get worse.
It is innumerate to suggest that the US can make a dent in the poverty of Guatemala through immigration. It's like emptying the ocean with a teaspoon.
Not only that, but population growth worldwide is what has made global warming inevitable.
We need a one-child policy in Guatemala and other third world countries to save the planet.
In any case a piecemeal process of letting Latin America's poor enter the US increases poverty in the US. And violence.
The US already has the highest per capita incarceration rate among large world countries.
16
Who cares what is happening in Central America, that's their business. All I know is that these economic migrants are not entitled to stay here. The Democrats refuse to change the law that now sees 90% denied admission when brought before a Judge. No wonder they "dissapear" and never show up for court.
15
For nearly a decade I've been teaching adult immigrants, and with the undocumented students in the class, I see a host of contradictions. They can't get a valid Virginia license (when they are arrested for a minor traffic violation, they pay the fine and get a license from Maryland), but they can borrow money and buy cars and buy houses. In the last census more than 3 million people without documentation owned homes in the US. It doesn't make sense to deny them this one thing that would cost taxpayers nothing and make us all much safer.
2
It makes perfect sense for them to have drivers licenses. Makes the streets safer that way.
A completely misguided proposal, one that is also being pushed in New Jersey. Illegal residents should not be hired for employment as per federal law - if they are , either the employer is not properly vetting their potential employee, the potential employee has provided fraudulent documents, and/or the employer doesn't care regarding residency status or is provided an opportunity to exploit someone by low wages and non-existent benefits. Appears as if a few laws are already being broken. Providing a license validates an illegal resident's status to be in the country. Current statistics show only roughly 20% of claims for asylum are legitimate. With the time (12-24 months) taken to vette a claim, why provide a "legal ID" for some who may eventually not be eligible for it? If someone is here and deemed legal, in whatever capacity, then the privilege of allowing them for a license application is reasonable. Until then, "No". The issues of work visas and immigration reform are separate debates.
16
It seems like Democrats desperately want to reelect Trump in 2020.
Fine with me.
37
“Undocumented”? No. They’re very much documented...as the citizens of other countries.
But as they’ve trespassed into our country illegally, they’re ‘illegal aliens’.
47
I am reading several comments on this topic.
What I think: my life in US followed a straight path from tourist with a business in USA to VISA (L1A), then Green Card and finally Citizenships.
At the green card step I decided to get a driver license (NYC) so I went to school, took basic lesson, pass my test at the first attempt. A note. I carry two driver license, the first took in Italy when I was 18, so a wide 30 years of good standing driving record. Pristine 30 points (in Italy points are earned and 30 is the maximum allowance).
Also in Italy, this has been written by an American journalist, none of the people - American - who he knows and drives would get a driver license. The fact is that ITALY is dead serious when it comes to put somebody on the road. Written test: 40 question, 3 mistakes.
Driving test after 15 hours of school with a certified teacher. You pass the written test. Ok. You fail the road test. You have one more attempt. You fail the second time. You do all from scratch.
US: a joke. Written test. 20 Q, 6 mistakes repeatable to exhaustion. Driving test, the same. No obligation to go to school other than the fake 6 hours of civic lesson with movies of the 60’. No use of the external mirrors but a silly obligation to turno back you head like an Antichrist to check who’s behind you.
So, to put immigrants behind the wheel is insignificant in terms of safety. First you guys must learn to drive. Seriously.
11
@Silvys So, Italy does not give driving licenses to illegal migrants from Africa. Is that right?
4
@Silvys
So you violated your tourist visa?
3
725,000 undocumented immigrants paying $1,000,000,010.00 in State and local taxes, I don’t own a calculator nor am I a math whiz, but doesn't that fly in the face of claims that undocumented immigrants don’t cost taxpayers anything; by my back of the envelope calculations that wouldn’t cover one trip to the emergency room for a work related accident, where I doubt there would be employer provided coverage, certainly not covering the cost of one child’s education for a year, or worse yet the coverage of one year of incarceration: this in an era of no money for schools, teachers, hospitals or Doctors, particularly in rural areas about which The Times has written articles on the number of schools, libraries and hospitals closing. It really must at some point be acknowledged that magnanimity has its costs, I find it doubly hypocritical that so many of those in states that have the few good paying jobs and lean to the left on these issues(as I do on all issues) are angry when their tax deductions are removed, shouldn’t you put your money where your mouth is since we do have in essence legislation without representation(for all but the rich and powerful), and are not allowed to demand that our tax dollars go to say helping poor people rather than indiscriminately killing them as we go about
bombing nations for special interests: complaining about paying for things you believe in makes about as much sense as complaining about losing jobs to off shoring and buying Chinese goods.
16
I propose we give undocumented/illegal immigrants free homes, free cars, free college eductions, free vacations, etc. Give them everything their hearts desire without having to pay one red cent. Why should they have to pay for anything while hard working Americans pay their fair share? I am sure US citizens will be happy to comply. Like heck they would but it certainly appears it is going in this direction. I say vote the Democrats out of office and fast.
40
I strongly disagree !! Why are the undocumented ( read illegal) immigrants exempt from the rule of law ?
37
@Shailendra Vaidya - They are studying to be president?
"They pay $1.1 billion in state and local taxes each year, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy estimates."
This is absolute garbage. They pay $0 in state taxes each year. They work under the table. I know some of them, I know the people that employ them. I have no problem with the people themselves, but it is outrageous that they pay no taxes on their income and that i now have the pleasure of paying for them to go to college?! And im no Trumper. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I paid $5,000 in state taxes last year. I sure wish I could work under the table!
37
@Mike Most of them work for agencies or contractors which list them as contractors .Then many make under the required filing amount .Often they have a few different forged documents ,which is a billion dollar business and all of them have every social service ebit cards food stamps ect,that most US citizens do not have and vote. How would you vote?
9
Prove it! Republicans have been spouting these falsehoods forever.
It is a crazy idea but I have stopped expecting practical ideas from this Editorial Board.
46
@Ludwig
I’ve always been a lifelong reader of the NYTimes and have a subscription but something has happened to the NYTimes. The quality of the editing has gone down overall.
Even some of the articles which should be straight reporting read like Op-Eds. (I know this an Editorial but just speaking generally.) In terms of coverage, never an article, for example, about the cost of educating the children of undocumented immigrants or their ER visits. They just beat the same drum about how much they pay in most likely sales tax since they have no choice but to consume.
The fact that some of them pay into social security as if our social security solvency is dependent upon their contributions is a joke. When they get old and can’t collect social security, what’s going to pay for their medical care? ER rooms? And if they are able to collect someday, they will have subsidized no one and will have far likely contributed less for even their own. It’s all ridiculous.
30
Yes, those undocumented immigrants really cause their share of mayhem. Just look at those undocumented European immigrants centuries ago. They not only drove their souped up covered wagons (probably illegally obtained) all over the place but shot most of the indigenous people they came across. When they couldn't kill enough natives to feel safe, they called in their buddies in blue to do the slaughtering more efficiently. Darn those pesky undocumented immigrants!
1
Will someone on the Editorial Board offer a clear definition of the term "undocumented immigrants?"
24
What are earth are we thinking?
23
The most recent data continue to show that California has more hit and run accidents than any other state.
https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/04/26/hit-and-run-crash-california/
This issue is bigger than recognized. Want to know one reason why illegal "immigrants" with or without licenses, will flee the scene of an accident? Fear of jeopardizing their DACA status.
25
I get it now. If you can't make a blanket amnesty happen, you can still pass laws which, bit by bit, give illegals all the same rights and privileges as citizens. Very clever. And thanks for helping to get Trump re-elected!
29
There’s only one thing undocumented immigrants should do- go back to their country of origin.
29
"As long as Washington remains unable to deliver comprehensive immigration reform" the New York Times will advocate for side-stepping US laws in every possible way.
This is nuts. They will not be insured. Coming mostly from rural areas with scant traffic laws, most are not good drivers. Drivers licenses are used as proof of citizenship in many instances, here. And that is something they are NOT!
It would be so refreshing if the Editorial Board would start advocating for Americans' needs, Americans' rights, Americans' goals. And by "Americans" I mean US citizens. What is this love affair with illegals even about?
32
Enough of the rhetorical euphemistic nonsense about the " undocumented ".
They are illegal aliens. They are not American citizens. They either illegally entered or illegally stayed in America. It goes beyond their documsnts and papers.
It is like calling the enslaved the unfree. Calling human beings slaves conflated and confused what was done to them against their will with who they were as persons.
26
I wholeheartedly believe it is a positive step that would be appreciated by the police and the majority of the citizenry. Living in a North Fork village I can attest to the immensely positive role immigrants play in all our lives. Their work ethic is admirable and plays a huge role in the stability of all our lives.
2
Perhaps a step in the right direction, but we need to do more when it comes to getting uninsured motorists off the road. I speak from experience, having been hit twice by uninsured motorists who produced bogus insurance cards to avoid no-insurance citations. In both cases, within minutes after the officer handed me the accident report and drove off, I was able to call insurance companies and discover that no insurance was in force because the person who hit me hadn't paid premiums.
That's ridiculous. If I can find this out within minutes, so can a cop. Police should have access to real-time databases already maintained by insurance companies to determine whether someone actually has insurance when they hit someone or get pulled over. If they're uninsured, their vehicles should be impounded and, in the case of the clowns who hit me, I should get first dibs to recover my deductible (you have to pay the first $500 before uninsured motorist policies kick in).
This would, instantly, cut the number of uninsured motorists to near zero, making our roads safer for everyone. The only losers would be the uninsured and insurance companies that now make money selling insurance cards for $100 or so that become useless after the first month because the monthly premium payment isn't made.
Of course, this will never happen. Government seems to have a unique gift for failing to solve problems that are easily solvable.
15
Must disagree here. Both as an insured driver and as a regular urban biker.
As a heavy user of NYC bike lanes, subject to normal vehicular laws of traffic, I encounter a constant stream of bicycle delivery people going the wrong way, against traffic in the lanes; opposite the one way traffic direction, directly into oncoming bike traffic. Also into oncoming car traffic, on the wrong side of the road where there are no bike lanes. Forcing law abiding bikers out, directly into oncoming traffic. Blindsiding pedestrians. Extremely, aggravatingly dangerous.
Most of the bike delivery people are latin and asian immigrants, and some percentage probably illegal. The illegal riders have one foot in and one foot out; little accountability. Because there is less accountability there is diminished obedience to traffic laws. Most dangerous is the wrong way violation, but also ubiquitous red light, stop sign and every other possible variation where rules of the road are patently ignored.
In the case of bicycles, it appears police are less likely to enforce against delivery infractions as the tickets are less likely to be paid, more likely to become part of a bureaucratic pile of scofflaw record keeping.
I do not believe registering with DMV will appreciably change the perception of accountability.
Call me crazy but I see direct parallels possible with larger, more dangerous vehicles. A menace to properly insured, legal drivers, and to pedestrians.
17
Among illegals and prospective illegals, word gets around. They will head for states and communities that are the most tolerant and accommodating. The more accommodations a state makes, the more illegals it will have.
With sanctuary cities and states, availability of drivers licenses, admission to public schools, is it surprising that someone in Guatemala thinks they will be fine if they just get across the border? The more accommodation you provide, the more you will have to provide.
And yet, when there is a suggestion that the existing illegals in detention be moved to these self proclaimed sanctuary cities, they cry foul. Reminds me of the late 1930s, when everyone was wringing their hands over the plight of German Jews, but when a boatload showed up, nobody wanted to admit them.
29
Just because a city sees fit to enforce its own laws in its own way, and not compromise public safety by undermining public trust in the police, does not constitute an invitation to the federal government to concentrate thousands of asylum seekers in their environs.
New Yorkers can both want to treat its residents fairly and equally, and not want radical demographic change. The country as a whole can absorb a million people, 0.3% of the population, easily. Putting them all in one place creates unnecessary local problems in the name of political retribution.
1
@James K. Lowden
In the context of the immigration issue, "Sanctuary" means a safe place. It is an asylum from the enforcement of federal law, specifically, immigration law. I cannot see how the failure to enforce laws contributes to the public safety.
If I had a :sanctuary city" that decided not to enforce domestic violence laws in order to keep families together, or not enforce gun laws so that people could defend themselves in public when they felt they were in danger, almost everyone would be outraged at such a compromise of public safety.
Perhaps, instead of calling themselves "sanctuaries" they should be referred to as "lawless zones".
15
They don’t call themselves “sanctuary cities”. That’s a term, like “yankee”, that always applies to someone else. But that’s no never mind.
The public safety issue is undeniable, your straw man notwithstanding. The police operate more effectively when they have the public trust. If people are fearful of reporting crime or answering questions — or of remaining at the scene of an accident — because they may be detained or deported, they tend to avoid the police. They don’t answer their questions. Consequently criminals get away with crimes. That is the public safety issue.
Statistics show that illegal aliens commit crimes less often that the native population. If every one were deported the crime rate, logically, would actually go up slightly (probably not measurably). Making them subject to deportation while just going about their business, however fair you might think that is, is not in the best interest of the public.
1
Have you ever heard the excuse for being late to work: "Sorry, but I got stuck behind some fool driving the speed limit." Anyway, my observation has been that, more often than not, that "fool" appears to be Latino, and judging from the landscaping-related vehicle they are driving, many of the passengers are likely "undocumented" immigrants. So I really have to thank the "fools" in these vehicles for keeping me from speeding.
1
In California, anyone who wants a license can go to the DMV with a utility bill or something showing residence, complete the form, take the test, and get a license as well as the right to vote. This voter privilege is supposed to be checked in Sacramento prior to approval, but this was not always the case. The sanctuary cities and states, by supporting illegal immigration, are breaking Federal laws. I can foresee a Supreme Court case in the future.
50
@Daphne
Which is why the nationwide popular vote in 2016 is meaningless. The Clinton margin of overall popular vote "victory' was exceeded by her margin in California, where they let anybody register to vote, regardless of legal qualification.
22
No, only citizens can vote. Green-card residents cannot vote.
1
@Dale Robinson
Legally. But all you need to register is evidence of an address. But read Daphne's original comment. They were supposed to check legal status in Sacremento, but often did not.
18
Not only should we give undocumented immigrants a driver's license, we should give them work permits, allow them to purchase guns with a concealed carry permit, and give them access to all other benefits of US citizenship. What could possibly go wrong?
42
Is this some kind of joke? Are we trying to insure 4 more years of Trump. Earth to liberals: this is not a winning issue. No rational discussion is going to make people think that you are right about this.
All you need to say is:
1. we do not support illegal immigration
2. we will arrest, prosecute, and jail any business owner that employs illegal labor
And then change the subject.
If you can't do that, then at least stop talking entirely. You are not helping. At all.
116
Uh, wouldn’t that make them document?
2
@michaelm
Uh, a license is not documentation showing residency status nor does it make them "documented" in any way.
4
Ha, and then you blame Trump for the crisis at the border?
Sanctuary cities, instate college tuition free healthcare, and now drivers licenses. Democrats and their cohorts in the media open the welcome mat for illegal immigrants, and then they wonder why they are swarming at the border? Crossing illegally with their kids?
The next greatest hoax they are attempting now, after the Russian collusion hoax, is that this is all somehow Trumps fault. The absolute gall on these people is breathtaking.
56
Excellent idea. Go for it!
1
Just another attempt to normalize illegal immigrants, which would be understandable if they weren't still pooring into the country on a daily basis. Maybe you guys should pressure on Democrats to actually reform our asylum laws and otherwise halt new illegal immigration instead of worrying about making it easier to break the law.
34
This is a slippery slope.
Ethically this sounds like the right thing to do but is a wrong strategic move.
By allowing illegal aliens to drive and commute in remote areas, we allow them to work off the books and for much lower wages in those areas. This depresses wages, which would have self corrected when a low balling contractor, not willing to pay a fair wage to the locals; with no one stepping up he/she would have to pay appropriate wages.
Lets be honest. Illegals depresses wages. Have we no loyalty to the under/uneducated in our country? Ex felons, people with minor drug offenses, Black folks, the economically disadvantaged, all suffer when we allow rampant competition in the blue collared sector.
35
Democrats: "No one is saying we should have open borders."
Also Democrats: "Let illegal immigrants have driver's licenses so they can drive ... and vote."
46
They could use foreign passports to establish their identity and obtain a standard driver’s license, once, of course, they pass the same tests as everyone else.
-------------------------
Bah! Sure they will be treated like everyone else, the legal immigrants and otherwise...
(You know darn tootin' that when they rack up tickets, and IF they bother to show up in court to contest them, the argument will be: But you can't take my license. I HAVE to drive to support my family or go to school... And then, when they are fined, the argument will be: I'm a poor person. I can't pay fines! Are you going to take away my license because I am poor and can't pay fines....? Remember, that? I think the Times did a series on it in Missouri, I think...)
Truth of the matter is, the promise to be treated the same as paying American citizens following the rules is always somewhere over the rainbow. (That's why the mandate for healthcare, while short lasted, made no sense, since non-citizens who were most likely to show up at the ER with a baby in the belly waiting to be delivered, were essentially... immune from that one.)
It is always poor Americans asked to pay the price. IT is not the rich neighborhoods the suddenly licensed newcomers will be driving in, of course, anymore than it is rich folk's rental costs and school districts that will be asked to absorb the thousands entering monthly.
Why should anyone follow the rules anymore?
28
There are no "undocumented immigrants." Euphemisms do not create reality. There are, however, "irresponsible migrants."
There are illegal migrants, illegally driving now without insurance. A driver's license will be, for them, a further "license" to injure without responsibility. The idea that it will improve "safety" is fatuity.
When your car is trashed or your mother, wife, husband, or child is maimed or killed in an "accident" caused by the negligence, coupled with the financial impunity, of such a one, you will know what that means.
25
@ATMDPHD
Call it what you want, but the bottom line is they are breaking the law and being subject to abuse.
5
I saw a highway accident happen a few weeks ago. I stopped, gave my accounting to the police, and drove the man home. His car was wrecked, totaled I’m sure. He was ok. The driver of the white truck that clipped him while changing lanes stopped initially, and then drove off. The officer said that wasn’t unusual and that “a white truck” wasn’t much to go on.
You may say that someone who leaves the scene of an accident will leave whether or not he has a license. And I don’t know if he did or didn’t, if he was driving legally or not. But we both know, as the California statistics bear out, that not having a license is incentive to leave. It’s one thing to deal with insurance liability. It’s something else to land in jail for driving without a license.
3
Or we get just hire buses and drive them back to the border where they can be kicked out of the country. That would be the legal thing to do.
36
they're not undocumented. they are illegal immigrants. would you call a thief an owner of undocumented property?
31
Undocumented aliens should be safely driven out of the nation’s border into the abodes from where they came & encouraged to drive,somersault,ski,skate...with or without documentation as the case shall be.
Not so within the USA.
Enter with proper residency documents & get whatever document/license to drive,fly,sail,...
Firstly, please come through the door..
What next,undocumented aliens should be provided Beretta pistol for self defence against ICE.
Please get real.
24
Is there more to this story? Because having a drivers license is not the same as having car insurance . Passing a driving test does not make you a good driver either (see any story about teen driving). Anyone from any country in the world can come here and drive with their foreign license for up to a year - (which implies people on the road with out full knowledge of our rules). So, not clear what this proposal is really seeking to address.
14
I am saddened to read the comments found here. Look around you folks, there are undocumented immigrants everywhere, woven into the fabric of our country and providing needed services and living to find a better life for themselves and their families. They pay taxes and support their neighbors, and they come in all colors, not just brown. We need comprehensive immigration reform and a way to figure out how to change the term from 'illegal' to legal, to keep good people from hiding in the shadows and providing a license is a good way to begin. To deport all undocumented people will destroy our economy and take away our good neighbors and friends. Dems are not for open borders, but responsible borders. Let's figure this out and stop complaining.
6
@Pat Hermanowicz
They need to “self deport” for one year. Pay a fine, and enter legally. With their heads held high for all to see.
Plus 10 years of community service, say 10 hours monthly as a small gesture to their new home.
I would support this program, with no reservations
7
To the critics you should note that this is only a license to drive; it is not a permission to work. We are all safer when fellow motorists know the rules of the road and have passed a driving test.
New York's DMV should follow up and ensure that all of these new licensed drivers do, in fact, have purchased insurance.
2
@DA Mann
Which laws can we break?
11
@D. Arnold
Driving is a privilege.
4
"Undocumented immigrants" is such a lovely little phrase. Perhaps the people in question casually mislaid their legal papers somewhere. Alternatively, they simply might not have known they weren't allowed to wander across political boundaries without so much as a "by your leave".
Let's stop skirting the real issue through a rhetorical sleight of hand. So-called undocumented immigrants are here illegally and consequently they are criminals. When any government agency at any level becomes aware of criminal behavior, the first phone call should be to the police. Then the legal system can sort it out, not some soft-hearted but misguided bureaucrat.
40
The data I have seen on uninsured motorists do not show the kind of benefits indicated by this article.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/03/15/483414.htm
34
@Kurfco This Data - with TN having a high percentage of uninsured drivers - brings up other issues - for example - in TN you do not need proof of car insurance to register your car. While we are making proposals to fix things, let's fix that. It will not make for better drivers, but certainly give better coverage to those impacted by them.
8
@Kurfco You are so right. I wrote a TV commercial with a personal injury attorney here in NM regarding the issue. The stats are nearly 25% of all drivers in NM are uninsured.
5
@Kurfco
Here's a technological fix.
Require all insurance providers to supply all states live data on all insurance policies relating cars and owners. States then locate license plate readers around their territory. Data from the readers will go straight to law enforcement who act on insurance infractions found. Sure, the cops would be able to track you anywhere but hey, if you're not criminal, what's the worry?
That ought to fix the cheater problem, right?
2
And they will ALL have insurance? Don’t count on it
21
Here's a better idea.
Arrest them, process them, and deport all who cannot be shown to have a legal right to stay here.
They aren't undocumented immigrants.
They're ILLEGAL immigrants.
Brazenly insulting the hundreds of thousands of immigrants who followed the rules, stood in line, and entered the nation legally is one way to get mouse clicks, but it wouldn't have been my first choice.
42
Good luck, New York. The readers are not in agreement with you with your licensing idea. Let's stay legal all the way through.
15
How about the language issue. Does the driver'a license test include testing comprehension of written English? (because signs don't have a Spanish "press 2" option). That is often my thought when I see in English "Blasting Zone - Turn Off Two-Way Radios" or "Bridge Out Ahead"!
23
New York allows foreigners visiting the US to drive. Illegals are foreigners in the US who have a greater need to drive, have more knowledge of the roads, generally are more proficient in English, and will be required to take a driver’s test. The only reason to deprive them of a license is irrational punishment. But nobody is going home for lack of a license.
What you accomplish by denying illegals a license is putting more unlicensed drivers on the road who are more inclined to hit and run. That is a bizarre strategy.
2
Isn’t this a bit like giving a gun permit to a shoplifter?
16
Among other things we desperately need comprehensive transportation reform. While I agree that these immigrants should have the same ability to drive as anybody else, the fact is that overall we should be encouraging less people to drive and for those who do to be driving less miles. None of this is even a blip on the national conversation while the ice melts and the wildlife disappears.
3
I admit that immigration has not been a major concern for me so that I have not considered the issue of the integration into the general society of undocumented immigrants. I find it difficult to hold the two concepts of state sponsored undocumented immigrants' support, acceptance and integration into society and the illegality of these same people being in the country. Why have documented immigration if it is ignored? If undocumented immigrants live as most other people -working, raising families, paying taxes-why spend so much money financing ICE, the court system and detention? Why aren't there federal laws preventing states from supporting "illegal immigration"? It seems that immigration reform is already happening without any input from the Federal Government. How does one make sense of this?
5
@Janet
I would argue that acceptance of illegal immigration is only in certain markets of the country. There are still law-abiding regions, where illegal workers are kept hidden on farms and in private homes, and it is less flouted.
The problem with the latest caravans of women and children: you can't hide children for long... We don't want uneducated children growing up in our shadows.. As more and more people in the non-supportive regions see in their own backyards what has been accepted in the past decades in other regions, there will be pushback.
It's cruel to use the women and children especially as political pawns like that. Everybody says, "Don't want 'em? Stop sending 'em mixed messages by hiring 'em." What message does receiving a legit American drivers license send? To me, it says, "The State welcomes you!"
Is this the message we want to be sending, in the end? You think it will be fun to be an illegal worker, or a single mom with children, in the next economic downturn, or as our own American social programs / entitlements (?) are drained by our own demographics? Be careful what you are encouraging.
12
They are not undocumented. They are here illegally. Lets stop the word games. Undocumented suggests they had them and lost them? Showing data that is misleading to support giving illegal immigrants a licence is silly. Perhaps we can give them a license if they register with ICE? Then they could drive to their meetings with ICE and explain why they are undocumented but now have a drivers licence.
56
@Just 4 Play
On the flip side:
It will be easier to physically locate them if the information on the drivers license is true. Like their physical address, picture and vital stats.
Likely they know this too, and the brighter ones will keep underground for this reason, or continue to provide false information/paperwork to get the drivers' license... (think like a law breaker!)
7
Heck, let them run for President as well. Many of them would be better than the hapless 20 Dems now running.
With luck, they will all flock to the blue states (which will be the first ones to enact your proposal), so that Trump won't have to send them there. And so that their "undocumented" votes will have no impact on the presidential elections.
14
If illegals are given driver's licenses it would be an open invitation to commit many kinds of fraud. Don't forget that illegal immigration is a crime; illegals are criminals under our laws. to add a layer of legitimacy to this is absolutely wrong and would encourage still more immigration fraud.
39
Since illegal immigrants cannot legally work in the United States, how can their afford cars and gasoline?
16
@William Case
Or car insurance???
6
Why does the NYT continue to use the term undocumented immigrants? The correct term is illegal immigrant. The right word to use is illegal simply because they're illegally in the US. Progressives want to stop others from using the term illegal immigrant, often invoking the idea that no human being is illegal, but that's nonsense. The term is accurate. It's not a semantic discussion. I think, when the left hears illegal, they decided, well, let's just change the word & we'll be done with it. Is there something about illegal immigrant per se that is so dehumanizing that it can't be used in polite discourse for people who are trying to have an honest conversation & aren't trying to spin it?
We need to speak clearly so we define what's at stake. Undocumented seems to imply that some people forgot to fill out the correct paper work when crossing the border. That's not what happened. They entered the US knowing they were breaking the law. They're here in the U.S illegally. That's why it's an issue. Can the left admit that the large number of illegal immigrants in the US, many of whom are relatively unskilled, gives rise to economic competition that harms job & wage prospects for voters who live here? This plays perfectly into the FOX News narrative that Democrats are offering illegals free healthcare, welfare, food stamps, drivers licenses, schooling, in-state-tuition, sanctuary, & voter registration forms. Guess what they're right. Why are we doing this? This is a terrible idea.
52
@Bill Brown Why are we doing this?
---------------
To get Trump for winning the last election!
The people are merely political pawns. If people really cared, they'd be donating half their incomes to charities south of the border to help these people at home, where help is needed, not encouraging them to grab a child or two and come north to a country with no family support where you don't speak the language and will not be allowed to stay long term...
Good news? A 9th Circuit(!) panel acted yesterday and confirmed it is indeed legal for asylum seekers to say outside the US as their asylum applications are processed and a hearing date is set. The law is on the president's side, and we NEED to live in a country where there is still rule of law and secured borders. It's amazing to me that even the 9th Circuit now sees that. But legal is legal, and anyone in the know knows how this turns out. (It's not pretty for the people who think they have established a foothold to be deported. Better to tell them that upfront, I think, and stop making false promises America does not intend to keep. They are not welcome here, no matter what the liberals or those employing them illegally are telling them.)
18
So why would they have passports to prove their identity if they are illegal? What prevents them from using a license as a voter id? And are we referring to "immigrants" or "illegals"?
12
I agree with your point, but you are ignoring the reason why states bar undocumented people from licenses. There is a federal law that requires it: the REAL ID Act of 2005. As I understand it, that law means that next year, TSA will stop accepting IDs from states that give licenses to undocumented people. The real battle isn't in Albany, but Washington.
10
This idea is a farce. I recall 30 years ago how an unlicensed driver of a full vehicle, rammed into the rear of the car I was driving with my elderly Mother close to the old Shea Stadium. When we emerged from the vehicle, we were shaken and were confronted by the enraged occupants of the car that hit us. When I demanded to exchange licenses, they began to pummel me on the street while my Mother looked on. They quickly disbanded when Spanish speakers flowed out of the nearby lumber yard to save us - the car's driver and friends quickly jumped into their car and left when the word "Policia" was shouted out. Our saviors explained that more than likely in Corona, there are illegal South Americans that are unlicensed, who borrow cars from their legal relatives. Typically they flee if they are involved in an accident and their relatives claim their car stolen. However many drive with borrowed licenses but will never have insurance coverage. So regarding today in 2019, do you realistically think an illegal with a legal license as what is being proposed now will actually be considered by any insurance Co to insure them? How many will bother to get insured? IF ICE cannot get a list of illegals with NYS licenses, they can compel Insurance Co to divulge the illegals they do business with and strengthen Federal laws to make it a crime to do any business with an illegal. PS I was not hurt in my encounter described earlier, I was only worried that my Mother was safe.
59
@LK Mott Sorry about your unpleasant experience, and glad there were no injuries. Sorry the apparently unlicensed and uninsured driver fled.
First, you argue that you're against this measure because the undocumented drivers won't buy insurance. Statistics from states that license them indicate very large numbers will buy the insurance. And, most states will cancel DLs if there's no proof of insurance.
Why would the undocumented driver care? Because driving without insurance or a valid DL can lead to arrest in otherwise trivial interactions with police. Note "Aldo's" remarks. And, therefor there's apparently frequent "leaving the scene," as happened to you and your mother.
Secondly, you argue that LE may get access to the DL, title and/or insurance information of the undocumented. Note that in the article this is one reason police support the program. Better to have the name, address and photo database than not. That, driving tests and the insurance make everyone safer.
It's reasonable to react angrily at unjust treatment. Sometimes there are reasons we can change. Please don't lose sight of the "big picture." And, we're all human. I don't know or care where you were born. Or where Aldo was born. And I don't want to make anybody's life more difficult or unpleasant.
1
@LK Mott: I’m not sure about New York but Florida solved the insurance problem for those unable or unwilling to pay for it, including those here illegally(note that was used as a verb before the hate mail arrives from those sensitive types offended by its abbreviated version when used as a noun)by tacking on an “uninsured motorist” charge to everyone else’s auto policy, this charge is not insignificant, running to a few hundred a year if memory serves me, another way we subside cheap labor: odd how private for profit insurance always finds a way for the public to pay for the uninsured; another area where there should be Government owned and run insurance since in States like Florida where Joe Public is already paying and taking the risk; come to think of it insurance of all forms would be better administered by the State and funded by taxpayers that way the money might really be there when you need it, like after major hurricanes when the government(taxpayers)has to step In anyway, or in the case of major illnesses which can easily bankrupt a middle class individual with some savings, yet oddly enough for indigents or those here illegally and able to get to an emergency room the coverage is on the taxpayer, yet another case of the American form of Capitalism, “SOCIALIZE THE DEBT, PRIVATIZE THE PROFITS”.
7
@Russ And I don't want to make anybody's life more difficult or unpleasant.
---------
Then please think of what you are doing to people on the lower rungs of American society who are here legally. They bear most of the social costs of the newcomers. The affluent see them as servants, not neighbors or part of their communities.
18
“…let undocumented immigrants apply for state financial aid to attend college…”
So, New York is giving them financial aid for college rather than expanding aid for legal residents of the state?
If so, that’s as big of a story as driver’s licenses.
69
@John
If they're paying NY income tax, they should have a right to ask for some of those funds for schooling. And pay the loans back, with interest, as do legal residents.
1
@Rea Tarr
You are sadly mistaken about the aid just being loans that are paid back. Illegal students are eligible for grants up to $5,165 per year. The whole program costs $27 million.
Regarding taxes, note that the $1.1 billion cited in the article is less than 1% of all NY state and local taxes paid. Yet these illegal workers comprise over 5% of the population.
Since they are predominantly low wage workers, they are make disproportionately low tax payments. This is normal with progressive taxation, which is essentially a wealth transfer program.
22
Aside from allowing them to get proper driver training and insurance, there is another reason for issuing licences to people who have established themselves in the United States.
Many of these people work in construction, landscaping, maintenance, or other jobs where they require tools. When you see a truck full of adult men — and one teen-aged boy — on a job site, you know who is doing the driving. These people have kids who are legal American citizens because they were born here, often decades ago. Many should still be in school, but instead are ferrying their parents around and doing menial work. Whatever happens to their parents, these young people will stay and should be preparing for the future.
6
Undocumented immigrants are in violation of the law. Calling them undocumented immigrants is a euphemism for people who are illegally in the country. Issuing driver's licenses and providing other social support undermines the rule of law. Does it not facilitate their economic viability by providing mobility? It is the oil that facilitates their exploitation by employers willing to look the other way about their status. Having lived in other countries as a temporary visitor, people who do not have proper documentation are provided no benefits at all, not even a temporary driver's license. You can't even open a bank account. it has become evident to me that the number of illegal aliens in the US is the result of opportunities provided and not the porous borders and ports of entry.
96
@Zinkler could not agree more. It escapes me how 'illegals' can work and pay taxes etc without abandon. I emigrated twice (once to UK and then Canada), even as a legal immigrant I got zilch benefits..
22
@claude3098 We have lost our way with regard to illegals. Much of the jobs that go to them are provided by those that wish to exploit them and do so with the protection of the government. There was a story during the Bush administration of an immigration enforcement agent discovering problems with the documentation of the workers in a large meatpacking plant in the mid-west. He contacted the central office to start an full scale investigation in the meat packing industry but a call from the state's governor to his connections in DC, and it was put on hold. We protect big donors and politically connected companies and people who exploit illegals.
17
@claude3098
I've never seen an illegal working anywhere near here "without abandon." I have, I think, seen a couple working happily away with it.
3
It's enough for a driver's license to certify that the holder knows the rules of the road and is able to operate a motor vehicle safely and lawfully. There are too many young people whose immigration status doesn't let them take drivers' ed. This doesn't contribute to anyone's safety.
At present, someone from another country who has a license, can drive legally as long as they're in status. The instant their visa expires -- no matter if they were the President's chauffeur back home, or a professional trucker with a spotless record -- our laws treat them as if they'd never been behind the wheel and had no education or experience. That's just stupid.
I'd much rather know that everyone who's driving has been educated and tested.
At present we're trying to force state-issued drivers' licenses to stand in for the national ID that we think we don't want. We need to have that discussion, instead of distorting the issue of drivers' licensing.
7
A driver's license is used in a lot of circumstances to get access to a wide range of services. It's not about the driving, but ID that you previously didn't have.
Even when it comes to driving, why should an immigrant hold themselves to the same standards as regular citizens? Why bother getting insurance - if you get busted for anything, you stand a good chance of getting kicked out of the country entirely anyway.
26
How exactly would this make the roads safer? Are those who fail a driving test or who have their license suspended, suddenly going to stop driving? Not having a license isn't stopping them now, so why would it in the future? And in fact further legitimizing their flagrant violations of our immigration laws jut encourage more lawless behavior by a population group that already doesn't follow our laws.
And how would we ensure that these licenses aren't used as an ID form for inappropriate purposes like flying or voting? Why can't these "hard-working" and "law-abiding" migrants just follow laws like the rest of us? In NYC, our DA's are already downcharging illegal immigrants to ensure they aren't charged with crimes that will put them on ICE's radar and subject them to deportation. Enough is enough.
78
@JP
Yes, exactly! The Times is making opportunist bad faith arguments to support a position that it actually holds for purely emotional reasons.
Having a driver's license in your pocket isn't going to make you a better driver. Maybe it will make you a little less likely to flee the scene of a hit-and-run, but hey, you already hit the guy! And while it's true that issuing more driver's licenses would mean a little more revenue for the state, the amount is trivial compared to the overall budget.
The Times did its best to come up with arguments supporting its position, but even if you accept those arguments as stated the benefits being promised are marginal. And the costs? Well the Times doesn't even try to talk about that, because it would very much like its readers to come away with the impression that there aren't any.
12
Not one dime for undocumented illegal visitors and would-be residents to America beyond stabilizing emergency medical treatment while Native Americans, African-Americans, and other oppressed and historically underfunded citizens, legal residents, and members of indigenous nations on American soil are not reaching their fullest potential. Not one dime that tells a would-be illegal visitor or resident that life will be manageable here.
53
@Observer of the Zeitgeist What prevents Native Americans from "reaching their fullest potential"?
1
@Observer of the Zeitgeist
I give as many of my dimes as I can to people in need without sorting them into colors or languages or races or political views or even brains. Just one exception would be xenophobes.
Undocumented immigrants are immigrants who are here legally but have no papers to readily proof it
Illegal immigrants are immigrants that in violation of US law, entered the US , jumping to the front of legal immigrants, who are obeying the law
As a legal immigrant, I know the difference
84
@Lars The distinction you're making is not really the way the words are used. "Undocumented immigrants," as used by the NYT and most American media, refers to those living in the US in violation of US law.
15
Many people drive without licenses &/or insurance.
Quite frankly, I’m more concerned about the uninsured.
6
Driving is not a right even for legal citizens, it's a privilege. I'm a reasonable guy but...there's something that doesn't quite smell right when we extend benefits enjoyed as a privilege to illegals. Plus, doesn't give a mixed message? "Don't dare come here illegally, but if you do...well...here's your legal driver's license".
94
The stupid fight over who is allowed to get a drivers license stems largely from a policy absurdity: Congress has steadfastly refused to legislate a national identity card because it has bad "optics", evoking a controlling, despotic government -- which is what we're getting anyway. Paradoxically, though, the government still demands a proof of citizenship and identity document. This results in the drivers license becoming the proxy for the ID card. Take the publicity hit: mandate a national ID document and return the drivers license to its sole original purpose.
22
The New York Times Editorial Board does not want to give illegal immigrants driver's licenses because it will make the roads safer. It does not want to give them driver's licenses because it will raise money for the state. No, the true reason the Times wants to give illegal immigrants driver's licenses is because it sees illegal immigrants as the good guys and Americans who want to enforce our immigration laws as the bad guys, and it wants to help the good guys in any way it can.
In the long run that means amnesty and citizenship for any poor person anywhere in the world who decides they have something to gain by coming to the United States illegally. After all, who could be against poor people seeking better lives? In the short run it means making life easier for illegal immigrants who are already here. Giving them driver's licenses would do that, and so the Times is for it. It really is just as simple as that.
91
@JohnB: You absolutely nailed it with this comment. Well done.
13
No.
Living illegally should be so difficult that most give up and go home. Not sure how to make it any simpler.
66
This really burns me up. Why not give the illegals the keys to the country and be done with it. They're even getting financial aid now to attend college in New York state, money that should be spent on Americans who want to go to college.
Trump wants to send asylum seekers and other illegals to sanctuary cities--here's a chance for New York to put its money where its mouth is and welcome them with open arms.
As for me, I'm voting once again for Donald Trump in 2020. Trump is the first Republican I've ever voted for, and his stance against illegal immigration is the reason why.
135
@David Gonzales
What I find offensive is how Democrats and their cohorts in the media lump all hispanics into one group, legal and illegal. Legal hispanic immigrants emigrated the right way, and are pillars of American society. Folks sneaking across the border, and abusing our asylum process are not.
30
@David Gonzales - Until EMPLOYERS are held responsible for hiring illegals, you will NEVER get your wish.
Employers like Donald Trump - hiring undocumented workers for his many golf resorts and hotels. He even uses visas to hire foreign workers as maids and busboys for jobs that are reserved for skilled workers.
Go to the source - JOBS if you're at all serious. Good ole capitalism - pay as little as possible for labor.
5
Undocumented people drive on our roads now. The fines imposed by NY V&T law for driving without a license and insurance does not dissuade them from driving. Lacking insurance, means they will not be financially responsible in case of an accident. They have no fear of accumulating points from NYS DMV for traffic violations. It is critical that New York State knows who is on the road and that all drivers are familiar with the rules of the road and possess the minimum competency to drive. Passing a road test and obtaining a driver's licenses by the undocumented means a safer New York for all of us.
7
I read so many comments and Tweets that want to throw all undocumented people out, build a wall, and/or lock them up.
The vast majority of them came here for a better life and, as the article says, in NY State they are 5% of the working population - stop and think about that. Imagine that in your town or city, 5% of working people were rounded up, taken away, and never came back; what do you think would happen? Would life suddenly get better for the remaining 95%? Would all the poor underemployed legal people suddenly find themselves getting more jobs offers at better pay rates? Would business tick up for local stores and restaurants? Would businesses start plans to expand? The answer to all these questions is a simple no.
If you took away 5% of the working population, here are some likely effects:
- Slump in business for most stores, some would go bankrupt
- 5% drop in tax revenue for the local authorities
- layoffs in service industry jobs like fast food and retail
In short a depression.
'All' that is needed is for Congress to give undocumented people some form of temporary paperwork making them legal. If you then want to give priority to US citizens for any job opportunity, that's fine but the most sensible way to enforce that is to make laws that force employers to give priority to US citizens and then to enforce that law.
Call it amnesty if you want, call me/it whatever you want, but if you're going to suggest I'm wrong, please tell me what YOUR plan is.
8
The NY State unemployment rate is ~4.5%. It seems to me that getting rid of the alleged 5% of the workforce that is illegally in the country and works either ‘under the table’ or using faked/stolen Social Security information might be good for the Americans who have been forced to compete with them.
34
@Ted Morton. Here is the plan: simply ENFORCE our country's laws. Prosecute people for illegal entry, not reward them w/ legal IDs and free higher ed. Employing illegals is a crime: ENFORCE fining and locking up those who does. Immigration without assimilation is occupation. Yes, it is THAT simple.
22
@Ted Morton: I disagree for several reasons. But your comment that the ‘loss’ of our work force of illegals would result in a “depression” is absurd!
10
This is a no-brainer. They (undocumented drivers) are already driving. They are already buying cars and they are already paying for insurance, usually in another state or on someone else's policy. Many do not have legal licenses, meaning illegally gotten or no license at all.
Raise your hand if you want to get in an accident with an unlicensed or uninsured or fraudulent licensed or fraudulent insured driver, regardless of who's fault the accident is? Ooops. Not to mention, possibly not properly trained driver?
License Fees $
Registration Fees $
Insurance Payments $
There is a lot of money being spent by people living in this state that are paying for the above, in another state.
7
I want safer drivers on the road, for sure.
But this doesn't help with the fact that many undocumented will likely still not get insurance. This is a pressing point for me.
The 'they're just trying to get to work' argument is still not convincing for me. No one else in the country gets a pass with that rationale. Certainly not POC.
Using fruadulent documents ( not their own SSN) to get a job is already fraud - and I'm supposed to feel good about allowing them to getting said job?
71
@Confused Exactly. What adult isn't "just trying to get work"? The "just trying to get work" argument doesn't justify breaking laws. Should a job applicant lie on their resume because they're "just trying to get work"? Should a job applicant plagiarize and fake credentials because they "are just trying to get work"? Should Lori Loughlin bribe USC crew coaches because her daughter will soon be an adult who will "just be trying to get work" and the USC credential will look good on her job applications? Should a Wells Fargo bank executive secretly sign up unsuspecting bank customers to make his job targets to "just try to keep his job"? All of these rationalizations underscore how the editorial writers make special exceptions for certain groups at the expense of other groups. Do the editorial writers have crippling white middle class guilt? Do the editorial writers like spending other peoples' money?
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They have no idea what it will do to communities if undocumented immigrants have licenses. California allows for immigrants to have licenses. In my hometown of San Rafael, California I live next to an immigrant community so overcrowded that each one small apartment could house many adults. Each of them owning a car and sometimes more than one. There is no place to park in their area so they park in our neighborhood completely covering every inch of space with cars and garbage hauling trucks. Our neighborhood is now unsafe for children to play outside, with cars speeding by strangers walking by, litter everywhere from the trucks. We can not be a country that lowers our laws to accommodate lawbreakers.
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It's one facet of the larger problem of turning a blind eye to employers hiring undocumented to save money. Going back in history:
" In 1952, Congress approved a bill making the "illegally harboring or concealing an illegal entrant" a felony, but the Texas Proviso, named for the delegation demanding its inclusion, specifically said that employing undocumented migrants would not constitute "harboring or concealing" them. "
It is possible to require employers to hire only workers with visas and green cards, and to enforce that law. Employers have more to lose than poor laborers. That would result in political pressure for more visas and green cards.
Of course they should be able to drive legally - but that question is missing the forest for the trees.
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@Craig H.- Everyone and anyone who participates anywhere along the chain of production of products and services, and especially the end user (you and me), that employs undocumented workers in any way is part of that forest and those trees, you mention.
You are truly over simplifying the issue of why there are undocumented workers in our country by "blaming" employers, while you might be a bigger part of the problem, through your spending and purchases.
3
Illegal immigration will tear the US apart. It will not be immediate. But slowly as we let a few here and a few there get legalized we will build up a huge gap between rich and poor in the US which will inevitably bring demagogues to power and destroy what is left of our democracy.
For almost fifty years the conventional wisdom of the establishment, the NY Times in particular, has maintained that population growth is not a problem.
But you can find the information on the internet. For decades Syria experienced 3% growth more or less. People ran out of resources. Eventually something had to happen to bring the death rate up to balance the birth rate. It was civil war.
The NY Times journalists blame Bashir al-Assad, but he was simply the name. Some sort of civil disintegration was inevitable.
Understanding population growth is not something new. A book, "the Limits to Growth," by Meadows et al appeared in 1972 and outlined several possible scenarios the might unfold if humans did not get population growth under control.
One possibility that seems to be playing itself out is global warming. But getting the poor of the world to buy Teslas is NOT the solution.
A recent article in USA Today pointed out that use of coal increased by 1.7% last year. Why? Population growth and the demand of billions for higher living standards.
Yes, conservatives are also wrong. But being less wrong does not avoid disaster.
We needed a one-child policy for Guatemala in 1972.
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As a first generation American and in favor of a pro-immigration agenda in particular one aligned against important skills deficits, it is not clear why we would want to encourage illegal immigration through the provision of social services. People who are here illegally (not undocumented) are here illegally. The fact that they pay taxes is irrelevant. We should have controlled borders. We should have clear paths to work visas and legal immigration. We should enforce the laws on the books. This doesn’t not mean that we should not provide a path to citizenship for those that are here but the provision of social services, access to universities, financing, etc obviates the need for immigration reform essentially endorsing illegal immigration without consequences.
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@Chris Let's begin to address this problem with a little blunt honesty: People who come into our country illegally are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. The sanitized white washing of this crime with the phrase "undocumented immigrant" just hardens my stance on reform, because I feel like I'm being manipulated with that phrase.
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@Chris Undocumented= Illegal and really they should neither have Soc Sec Cards (valid) or DL's Valid. Controlled borders is really a waste of time as they will never be impervious. When people cannot show documents when they caught in a violation, why are they not immediately deported ?????
20
Arresting and deporting any foreign person driving illegally who injures someone while driving, or is arrested for driving under the influence or for driving recklessly, would make our roads safer, too. Indeed, such measures would make our roads much safer than giving drivers' licenses to any person who has already established an intent to violate U.S. law by remaining in the country illegally and then working illegally. These measures would also be more consistent with the rule of law which, in the end, is what makes all of us safe.
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The explicit justification of this proposal is to facilitate illegal conduct: living and working in the United States without authorization. We are constantly told that illegal immigrants are more law abiding than American citizens. Now we are given to understand that not only are they living and working illegally in the United States, they are driving illegally in the United States as well, without insurance. And yet, somehow, we have a moral responsibility to facilitate their continued ability to violate our immigration and labor laws.
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@SM what exactly did you think they were all ironmen getting to work ? do they have choice to do it legally ? They dont , and they are THERE. So either deport them instantly, or show some HEART. The stuff that made 'Merica the great and prosperous nation it is today.
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@SM
The justification of this proposal has nothing to do with people arriving here or being here illegally. Immigration is a federal responsibility. States can either make the best of the situation or let us all suffer for the sake of some narrow-minded righteousness. The point is that the proposal is a benefit to all concerned in terms of safety and economics.
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@SM- Absolutely not. It is not "the explicit justification ....."
Plus, there is no moral responsibility, unless it's to the legal citizens of this country to make sure that everyone driving a car ...... in this country is legally licensed and insured, according to the laws and regulations of each state. Any argument or objection to that might be a discussion or debate that does nothing to fix the situation that exists, right now.
4
Allowing undocumented workers to get driver's licenses will definitely make the roads safer. They will take driver's ed, take and pass a driver's test and should be required to carry basic car insurance. That way we ensure they understand traffic laws and can read traffic signals and warnings
8
@Alchemist
Honest question. How will you know their papers are legit, and the same person who took the drivers ed class and passed the test is the person using the license to drive?
If workers today currently operate under different names and use different paperwork to get hired, as prominently happened on an Iowa farm in the recent jpast where the man was known by a different name "on the street" than by his employer -- how will you gringos know that?
It is a system ripe for exploitation, and the downhill fall that makes America like the countries these people are fleeing, with little respect for the law or by the law, begins to relaxing first this rule (letting them in) then that, (letting them have a legit drivers' license that officially tells them, "You're good coming / working here...")...
Either we all follow rules in this country, or the rest of us get to pick and choose, too. Fair is fair, not fair to shift the costs from one group (paperless immigrants) onto others (the people in the neighborhoods where they will ultimatly settle down...)
25
New York may be another state of mind, but this is a bad idea. For a long time, I lived in a city in northern Colorado. On two occasions cars driven by undocumented immigrants ran into mine. They did not have insurance. My tough luck. One time I was ticketed for failing to yield the right-of-way. When I went to court, I found it filled with undocumented immigrants who had been ticketed because they did not have insurance. A long day for me. Again my bad luck.
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@neil I live in San Rafael, California, the same thing has happened to me and my friends. As well the overcrowding of my area with cars and trucks is overwhelming.
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@neil
Whomever told you driving was a privilege was wrong. It is a right, if you can pass the test.
1
Until the immigration status of undocumented people is resolved by immigration reform, I would urge NY not to give the undocumented drivers licenses.
Here in Arizona many undocumented drive. I have been involved in an accident involving an undocumented driver. He ran a red light in an old car with expired plates, broadsided me and then walked away, abandoning his car. I was also witness to a multi car crash where an undocumented driver attempted to flee but was chased down by two policemen.
I would like to license undocumented drivers, but I doubt, when immigration status remains hanging over their heads, that they will willingly avail themselves to police voluntarily after a car accident.
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@Scott I agree, in my hometown of San Rafael, California, there is an immigrant community next to my neighborhood. Now that undocumented immigrants can have licenses, they all have cars and some more than one. The area is overcrowded, with many immigrants crammed into one apartment. Each one owning a car or truck. There is no place to park so they park in our neighborhood to the point where every inch of parking space is taken up by cars and trucks. It has created a serious situation of safety for our neighborhood.
22
Give them driver's license/ID cards. Tie an Individual retirement Account to each card. For every hour they work five dollars goes into their account, paid by their employer. That gives them an income when they return to their country of origin. If they become citizens that money goes to Social Security. We win. They win. And their employer no longer gets a free ride at the taxpayer's expense.
4
@caveman007 Guess what? Almost all the many undocumented people I've worked with and known over the past 25 years have Social Security numbers. Employers require them, so these industrious folks get them. There are millions of undocumented workers in this country who have been paying in social security for years, and most will never be able to collect. They've paid for the right for others to have a chance too.
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@Entera We should reward their hard work in a way that would win the support of a majority of Americans. There is plenty of support for labor in our country. It's time to put Trump, and his wealthy friends, on the spot.
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@Entera
How do they get SSNs? Do they steal them from legitimate residents?
16
-----"A proposal in New York could extend the right to thousands and make the roads safer."
I was always told that driving is not a right, but a privilege.
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@Mary States stick with that "privilege" position to make sure they can take away or deny licenses when desired. In fact, unless you live in an urban area and/or have enough money for expensive cabs when needed, driving is a necessity for economic survival -- and by implication, a right. Citizenship status plays no role here.
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@Mary
This is just another step in the wrong direction which will only encourage further illegal activity by those who do not respect our laws, which these days appears to include our legislators.
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@John Gunther driving is not a Constitutional right. There are several cases now before the Supreme Court which, in essence, will answer the question as to whether driving is a right or privilege.
Here is some interesting reading:
https://www.nysdwi.com/supreme-court-opportunity-declare-driving-right-not-merely-privilege/
7