...as long as James doesn't decide to stay in a tunnel when it rains!
2
I was of the understanding that the reason that passenger trains such as Amtrak cannot travel at the high speed of European trains was due to the inordinate wear and tear that freight trains have on the tracks, which in the case of the Boston-Washington corridor are used by both Amtrak and the freight companies (who actually own the tracks). Can somebody with actual expertise in this area please confirm or correct my understanding? I ask this because the article seemed to be supporting the idea of having more freight train usage of lines that passengers currently rely upon for commuting.
7
In Reading, PA , we have the “opposite problem.” (However leading to the same result: too much traffic on highways in Southeast PA). In Reading, we lost the passenger rail service, which shared the tracks with freight, in the 1980s. And a few months ago, the Bieber Buses serving Berks County commuters also ceased operations.
The freight operations continue, although I have to say that I hear train whistles coming across the valley , much less often, than I used to. But commuting to a regional metropolitan destination like Philly occurs, on average, at only 30 mph by highway, because of the ridiculous volume of traffic.
3
Imagine, less tractor trailer trucks mucking about our streets.
Where I live, they've turned the old railway into a bike trail only use during the summer months for tourists. What a waste. Could've been utilized for light transit/commuter opportunities tothe Boston Metro region.
Instead it's all about grid locked bridges and crowded roads made in the 1920's here on Cape Cod.
I wish tractor trailer truck drivers were not so prevelant, better trained and only used 'jake brakes' when absolutely necessary. My rural road is now a howling nightmare 24/7.
Oh how I miss the old freight trains that used to go all of the way out to Provincetown, until the late 70's.
12
If the automotive industry is promising autonomous automobiles, how much easier should an autonomous freight car be? The small railroads like the New York & Atlantic and the Providence & Worcester need innovation in train control technology and innovation in management thinking to create the efficient, small-scale, autonomous freight railroad for the 21st Century.
8
This is good news! Rails are much more efficient, and less polluting, than roads. I'm delighted to know that NYC is restoring the use of "float bridges," of which there were once on Manhattan's West Side, some of which are rusting ruins now. I do hope it's just temporary, though, till the rail tunnel is finally built across the harbor. I was also encouraged to note that the rebuilding of the Myrtle Avenue subway viaduct included raising an overpass to accommodate taller boxcars on the N.Y. and Atlantic. Finally some sensible realization of the value of Rail transport.
Kudos to Rep. Nadler, who has been pressing for such things for decades. I loved him for it when he was my assemblyman, and I still do now that he's my congressman.
22
Reactivating much of our country's abandoned rail would go a long way to reduce pollution. We have to stop allowing these routes to be dismantled, even when abandoned by the private railroad companies. The routes (rights-of-way, infrastructure like bridges, etc.) took generations to piece together and if lost would be incredibly expensive and politically impossible to reconstruct. Instead of rails-to-trails, we should only permit rails-AND-trails or just rails. Routes that are abandoned should be put in trust and remain so until demand requires their reactivation.
21
Highways would make better trails, anyway.
8
They have a "clean emissions" locomotive as I learned from this video: https://youtu.be/F108dH7sH9g?t=77 Probably particle filters?
2
@Dietmar Logoz I don't know if there is anything special about the engine in the video, but often times the reason a train engine is seen spewing visible sooty smoke is due to age and the need for maintenance.
3
So city and state officials put millions into these projects that have very minimal effect on the quality of life, why are they ignoring the biggest problem which is the drastic need for a new tunnel connecting NJ and NY? Gov Christie cancelled it.
According to the Observer: "Delaying an increase in train capacity has undeniably contributed to New Jersey’s transit woes. The current two-track rail line shared by both Amtrak and NJ Transit Rail Operations (NJT) has reached its top capacity of 24 trains per hour."
Ref: https://observer.com/2018/12/chris-christie-phil-murphy-gateway-tunnel-project/
8
I’ve always loved trains. My father was a freight conductor for Amtrak in NYC for more than 37 years in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. He took my siblings and me on rides just like this. We thought we were the luckiest kids in the world. We were. Thanks, Dad.
14
@Olivia Wow! I love trains too and have taken the Amtrak Coast Starlight a couple of times and look forward to yet another one this next winter.
2
@tom harrison Enjoy!
1
Lived next to these tracks for years. A real treat seeing the Ringling bros train make stop in Glendale , meeting clowns And seeing the circus animals.
14
@Russ I saw the circus train glide silently out of the fog early one morning while I was waiting for an Amtrak train in Kingstown RI. Eerie and beautiful -- I've never forgotten it.
9
Queens and Brooklyn are "in the middle of New York City"? Ha!
(Kidding!)
1
So is this how LIRR crews get to their own failed equipment?
2
Wow! Great article and great idea. What took so long???
7
Our entire country has vastly under-utilized rail systems. Rail "fiefdoms" have become completely balkanized, making a cross country shipment as complicated as passing a UN treaty. This puts more heavy trucks on our interstates, and barreling through our cities. Transport by rail for long distances is far more efficient. Trucks should only be used for the last leg of the trip!
15
Some of the tracks that are currently being used by this railway are the same that could and should be used for the Triboro RX. There will need to be a solution that allows for passenger rail to improve transit and freight movement throughout the outer boroughs.
Hopefully, as the railroad increases business, dwell times for its cars reduce. I often see train cars parked on tracks (near Cooper Ave, for example) for extended periods. I'm sure there are reasons for this, but to the outside observer, it would appear that they get parked there because its convenient or because there is no yard capacity.
2
In the late 1980's, the the High Line still existed as a physical entity and a right-of-way as far south as Bank Street. At that time, real estate developers applied to abandon the easement in order to construct market rate (expensive) housing in the volume occupied by the High Line. The downtown terminus was within Westbeth Artists Housing. The Westbeth Board of Directors campaigned to stop the abandonment arguing that a transportation corridor on the west side of Manhattan had immense public value. Westbeth offered to make the right-of-way space within its complex available as a station and suggested that the High Line be used for a combination of light rail or trolley and pedestrian travel.
Had this been done, NYC would now have a transit connection from the new Hudson Yards station of the #7 train to the West Village, with stops along the western edge of Chelsea. The scale of the transit system would not have precluded a significant pedestrian experience, albeit something different from the current, and very successful, High Line Park. Still, the loss of a far west mass transit corridor in a ready made right-of-way seems an unfortunate choice.
20
@nycarl:
Actually the terminus was the "St. John's Park Terminus" building, between Washington and West Streets, from Vandam to Clarkson. The park is long gone, the church longer, and the Northern half of the terminus building is being demolished now, to be replaced with a Google building of some sort.
3
I have lived in Westbeth since it opened in 1970. The train tracks ran through our building and ended at Bank Street. We loved it and were saddened when it was torn down. It was a bridge over the main entry to our building on Bethune Street that added quirkiness to our old Village neighborhood.
4
Jerry Nadler told me about this railroad over ten years ago, and how important it would be to us. I'm pleased to see this article. I'm also glad to report a real-life example of how difficult is the job of our elected representatives, how patient they must be when they support projects which will improve our lives.
18
Imagine if the High Line was returned to the railroads as a more environmentally-friendly way to transport freight to Manhattan's west side.
11
@BRS When I first started hearing about the high line several years ago, I visited and was astonished to see elevated tracks heading directly into buildings well above street level, and wondered why that practice wasn't continued. It seemed obvious to me that it would be a huge advantage to remove truck traffic from the streets. And in Manhattan (!), not just Queens and Brooklyn as the subject of this article.
10
@Joe:
Manufacturing moved away. The big complex where AT&T manufactured phone equipment became Westbeth artists' housing. The National Biscuit Company, that had a big building with the elevated tracks bringing flour in and taking baked goods out, moved. Also Washington Market, just beyond the terminus, moved to the Bronx. People got the idea that rail transport, at least in this city, was obsolete.
4
I would like to see more articles like this. To go green and improve the urban environment requires more "urban freight lines" to get heavy trucks off urban roads. Thanks for the article.
31
I loved reading about this. I kept hoping the reporter would mention the long-unused tracks in the neighborhood I grew up in -- Woodhaven, Queens. (This is Andreas's wife.) These tracks -- I vaguely recall hearing they were once part of the LIRR -- are still there between 98th Street and roughly 101st Street, overgrown with trees in the meantime. I am not sure how far north they run, and I think they once ran down to Jamaica Bay. The section of tracks that I am most familiar with spans the distance from Myrtle Avenue to Rockaway Boulevard; at Jamaica Avenue, the trestle of the J train had to be raised to carrying subway trains over these tracks.
I would be curious to hear whether it might be possible to reactivate these tracks as part of a systematic effort to increase rail traffic in the New York City area.
25
There was talk of a bridge or tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn, putting the tracks on Staten Island into greater use. That is also a shorter distance for a float ferry. I just hope those ferries never tip a boxcar over into the water...
4
I loved this story! I already knew about the New York and Atlantic line, and I think I saw it in the early 1980s. This is a reason I've never favored the conversion of short rail lines to walking/running trails, etc., as has probably happened now in every major metro. I would rather keep them for freight and light rail.
11
Considering the deplorable condition of critical bridges and tunnels in the metro area, I hope someone out there is building a lot more freight barges.
12
Revert Manhattan's HighLine into a working railroad -- if only to shuttle the tourists to see the HighLine.
12
@DCBinNYC: Far too much has been torn down, much of it replaced by residential or office buildings,.
3
A picture of the barge carrying freight cars would be helpful.
16
@Michael Read this online article:
https://gizmodo.com/a-rare-trip-on-the-floating-train-yard-of-hudson-harbor-1557809294/all?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Many interesting pictures.
3
Impressive article and set of comments that touched most of the bases! As one who was deeply involved in the rail industry planning process as it rebuilt itself after economic deregulation in 1970 that included the Conrail system and the evolution of shortline railroads, I am happy to see NYC has functioning freight service. It warmed my heart to read of the role of the Port Authority whose rail planners were residents in the Twin Towers on 9/11.
10
Very interesting story...
I do think that we need to rethink our infrastructure including the rail and mass transit systems.
I live in the Boston area which has one of the oldest mass transit systems in the country (I believe it started about the same time as New York City's).
The Boston system is always underfunded and mismanaged. I have done projects overseas in places like Japan and S Korea. Compared to their mass transit systems, we look decidedly "third world." I am ashamed to think of the impression that tourists from other countries get when they use the buses or subway in Boston.
20
a map showing the line would have been nice -
28
@j Here is your map:
https://www.anacostia.com/sites/www.anacostia.com/files/railroad_static_map_pdfs/NYA%20Map%200215.pdf
2
A nice NYC story, but a map for the train line should have been included.
22
@Isle Yes, as cartographers used to have employment, any story about a place or a geographical theme would have a map accompanying it to depict and explain the article, and everything mentioned in the article would be in the map. Newspapers used to matter.
4
Great City Planning - give up the High Line for the Shed and then add congestion pricing.
4
@Alan The High Line was "given up" around 40 years ago because most of the industrial users moved out of Manhattan. Its highest and best re-use is the park and community use that New Yorkers and visitors enjoy so much. But more to your point, planning is essential and renewal, modification and expansion of existing alternatives to auto and truck traffic, like the rail uses described in this story, are critical.
13
@Grumpy Dirt Lawyer Not in the least. With the increased development along the western edge of Manhattan, it is needed for an elevated subway line, not for strolling and jogging. It didn't have to be restricted to freight. Or, as a novelty, it could have human-powered handcars. Now, there's a workout, and you get somewhere, to boot.
7
The "Miller" Freight.
Ahhh, the memories.......
This makes my heart sing.
6
When I lived in Little Rock I often went to a small airport about 40 miles east. I40 was always filled with long haul trucks, apparently the area is a trucking hub. I often got stuck behind two trucks pacing each other on I40. When I was told that there used to be a rail line running alongside I40 I was floored.
What political, I assume, reason would have caused the removal of a double rail line? This country is incredibly stupid when it comes to rail.
Even as a kid when visiting relatives in Amsterdam NY where my parents grew up you could see where the trolley lines were poking through the asphalt that covered them.
Not to mention what was left of the Erie Canal that passed in front of my grandparent’s house along the Mohawk River.
All of those transportation methods caused by the political maneuvering of the auto and truck industry, that are still viable today, including the Erie Canal.
12
This is only just a thought because I watch a lot of crime shows. How will organized crime find a way to stick dirty fingers into this rich expanding slice of juicy pie? It looks like one or two well timed strikes ( or accidents maybe ) could really gum up the works and a wonderful civic minded citizen may step forward to reassure certain people that such things just might be averted for some small considerations. Just wondering.
1
would a beer pipeline not be more direct than a train?
8
@Especially Meaty Snapper Yes, but consider the dangers of the pressurization required to maintain the carbonation...and the risk of unauthorized tapping into the pipeline along the way, as the poor do into gas/oil pipelines in Mexico and other places. Imagine the casualties from a beer geyser...too horrific.
10
If they are using the LIRR tracks why don’t they use electric engines? In reality a diesel locomotive is using that Diesel engine to generate electricity to drive the wheels. Can’t they be modified to use the third rail?
4
@Paulie I don't think that the rail lines in Brooklyn or Queens are electrified. And I doubt they ever will be, for the same reason that the LIRR has not electrified large parts of its system.
4
Prior Planning Promotes Pretty Poor Performance: think of all the old freight lines we've converted to walkways and parks. Barges across the River: shades of pre '60's NYC. I guess what goes around comes around. We should have been building rails instead of highways for the last 50 years.
25
As a whole, we rely far too little on rail transport in the country. Increasing use of rail transport will not only reduce congestion and wear and tear on roads, but CO2 emissions as well.
NYC is on the right track by expanding freight rail transport.
20
Properly managed the combination of Long Island bound freight and spare return capacity could do wonders for the wear and tear of roads and bridges.
What it takes is whats sorely lacking, centralized management.
10
The US still has worlds largest and most efficient frieght rail system. It is also profitable, Warren Buffet owns a third if it.
7
Ideally, the railroad will construct more sidings and add some new rolling stock consisting not of the boxcars found on transcontinental freight trains, but of the cars half that size for transporting both general and specialty cargoes as they do in densely populated west European nations.
7
@Quiet Waiting sidings etc are needed but a different set of boxcars etc is foolish. The cars are shipped from hundreds if not thousands of miles away. They need to be the standard cars used on all railroads. The average freight train in the US (eastern) travels around a 1,000 miles whereas in Europe it is 300 miles. Its really comparing dollars and euros, both currency but not the same.
2
Short-line rail lines; we remember that yesterday's freight would not suffice the needs to keep revenues growing in production filled areas, then spur lines continued along ports of call, and the essences of transporting all the consumers wants were then filled.
1
How could you not include a map of the line's routes?
40
Very good news & long overdue! Anything that reduces truck traffic in and around NYC is a godsend.
13
Everyone, while growing up, dreams of beings not engineer on a train!
Choo choo!
4
There is much opportunity for rail use.
Once upon a time, the post office used pneumatic tubes to move mail between the major postal terminals in Manhattan (GPO / Morgan Annex, Church Street, Grand Central and local carrier stations. Those tubes have been unused for many years, but all of the terminals and many of the carrier stations are on subway lines. It would be easy to set up a system where truckloads of mail are sent via subway. And major delivery options such as UPS and FedEx could be required to use subways to move packages into and out of Manhattan. How many vehicles would than remove from the streets?
14
@Eugene Rather than clog the subway, carrier pigeons could be used to sail mail, or just in baskets on high-wire lines from skyscraper to skyscraper.
The main problem with freight rail in New York City is, there aren't very many routes. But there may be some unused rights-of-way in Queens, if nowhere else.
2
When I lived in Brooklyn,I used to see the Tracks holding the Red and Yellow cars of the Railway along the N and D Lines. Australia is already experimenting with Driverless Trucks and Trains in some of their Mining Operations,so who knows where the future of Freight Transport will go.
2
This will probably mean less jobs for truckers but with increased rail traffic, maybe new job opportunities will open up for them.
6
Truck driving is hardly a job anyone wants, it is poorly paid and hard on the body. When all you’re seeing is the interstate roads, it hardly shows you America. For many it is a job of desperation.
6
No mention of Chris Christie, who nixed the Gateway Hudson River rail tunnels? Now, whatever happens, any new tunnels will cost many times more, plus the additional time. What a waste of protoplasm that man was, and he still claims he was right!
22
Christie cancelled the ARC tunnel which was a separate tunnel that would have ended essentially in the basement of Macy's. It would have supported NJ Transit only.
The Gateway tunnel is really what we need. Amtrak owns the Northeast Corridor which was originally the Pennsylvania Railroad.
9
@Tom
New York Central and New Haven Railroads, actually.
Sam,
Pennsylvania and New Haven, more actually.
2
I only hope that Chicago's new Mayor and new members of the City Council see this article and it reminds them that there is an underground freight system beneath the Loop that could and should be restored to limit the truck traffic in downtown Chicago. Moving freight delivery below ground makes a great deal of sense.
15
My father was born in 1920 and grew up in a house built in 1920 at 306 Walsh Court, Parkville, Brooklyn, and he and his sibs always described living on a railroad track that NONE of us of their kids could imagine. I finally went there last year to look at the tracks, very much there and very much in use, a mystery solved. And now here is an article about those tracks and those trains. wow
9
This isn't going to do much for congestion since it runs mostly in the middle of the night. Especially. when much of the freight must be loaded on to trucks for delivery once it gets into Brooklyn.
$100M seems like an awful lot of money for a minimal benefit.
2
@Amy By freight being moved by rail, even if at night, there won't be tractor trailers congesting the streets during the day. Also, by delivering large loads of goods to rail depots for distribution the trucks required to get them to their destinations within the city can be much smaller.
40
@Amy Wear Between wear and tear on the roads, emissions and noise, we're all better off with fewer trucks on the road.
31
@Amy
I don't know if this would be the case, but new rail traffic running mostly in the middle of the night were to replace truck traffic that currently runs in the daytime, then it could conceivably make a difference.
4
Congratulations on devoting space to a topic most people know little, if anything, about, and care even less. It entails something of a learning curve to write about railroads, and while Kilgannon's article is well done we must excuse him for calling the New York & Atlantic Railway a "freight train." Maybe this was one of those annoying spellcheck glitches originally intended to be "freight train route" or simply "freight line." In any case, the NY&A is not a freight train, but a company that operates them. And we should all wish it well, given the likes of those who say railroads are an anomaly in this run-up to the age of self-driving cars (God help us!)
23
That's interesting. I live in Toronto where commuter rail (to newer suburbs) travels on lines owned by freight carriers and increase in freight has prevented a much needed increase in commuter rail into the exurbs.
7
Those are the tracks that run parallel to Avenue H in Brooklyn, I think. A paradise of trees and undergrowth -- I have wondered if it could become a sort of "Low Line" amble for Brooklynites. But if they run a train that can get us from Bay Ridge to Flatbush in less time than taking two trains, one of which is the R, then that's even better.
Years ago I saw an apartment that overlooked the tracks -- kind of like a schloss above the forest.
8
@B. Yes! I lived many years in the neighborhood and I remember it well. I always loved trains (still do) and I used to walk over to Avenue H just to look down at the tracks.
2
@Lynne
My question is, Lynne, how did you escape Brooklyn and end up in Bar Harbor, one of my favorite places, if not my favorite? (Not that I do not love Brooklyn, my native borough and home.)
2
New York's economy has evolved since the XIX Century. Barges with box cars landing in Manhattan and Queens disappeared in the 1950s because heavy manufacturing had shrunk and more importantly the railroads (Conrail's predecessors) lost money on this side of the Hudson. The New York Central actually hired “demarketing” executives specifically tasked with shutting down the car ferries. Car ferries were (and most likely still are) money losers for the railroads. Just like the city’s current passenger ferries, they will require massive subsidies to operate. Even with subsidies, they wouldn't make much of a difference. Industrial areas from Long Island City to South Brooklyn have been gentrified. I invite you to open Google Maps and try to find industrial development locations along the NY&A in Queens and Brooklyn. The dream of re-industrializing New York City has persisted since the 1980s. While New York State and City have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to revive rail freight on this side of the Hudson, they have very little to show for it. It's time to move on to the XXI Century.
By my reading, @Drew, no one is trying to re-industrialize New York via the NY&A. It's running supplies to the many businesses that need regular resupply. That clearly includes bars and restaurants, which are hardly industrial. That *is* moving to the 21st century, and I hope this does achieve a small reduction in street traffic.
I agree that that the rail car ferries may not be particularly profitable, but they're certainly a lot cheaper short-term than building another tunnel.
21
With any luck, or adherence to common sense, railroads will play a greater role in this century, not less. I'm more than tired of that oft-used red herring "subsidies" as if highways and airports grew naturally from the earth and maintain themselves gratis. I figure people who make this argument most likely have something at stake in the status quo rather than the common good. Trains: a 19th century answer to some our 21st century problems.
26
@cincytee Hey Cincinnati (I'm from Cincinnati) but now New York. Back in the 1980s, our consulting firm did a freight demand study for NYC and LI. There really wasn't enough freight potential to merit a significant capacity increase with a tunnel or more ferries. There's less now. New York is much more congested than and less industrial than Cincy.
1
What is now called Gantry Park in Long Island City is another spot where the railroad Ferried freight cars into Queens. The Gantry that says Long Island on it connected the rail line and Ferry.
5
Manhattan did have extensive freight receipt capabilities, the remains of which can be seen in the High Line. Freight cars were shunted into second or third level warehouses/distribution centers. No longer. How about the stalled second RR tunnel under the Hudson? It is partly built, no? Chris is gone, It could release some of the pressure on Ft.Lee.
4
WHERE is the MAP for this railway? Lots of lovely photos but the article needs a map!! Please provide post-haste, thank-you very much. And thank you very much for this otherwise informative, timely news piece!
66
@Celtique Goddess I was thinking that myself as I read the article. "Brooklyn and Queens" is not much of a place indicator. A map would have been very helpful, and would have done a lot more to explain the impact of the railroad.
9
Great story, here is a link to open railway maps, which is really cool, show EVERY rail in the city and country. You can spend hours reading them.
http://tinyurl.com/ycq574zr
9
@Sparky Jones That map includes passenger lines. The freight rail system in New York City is much smaller consisting of shared passenger lines into the Bronx from Westchester and the NY&A which cuts across Queens to Bay Ridge.
2
@Sparky Jones AAAh! Trigger warning for map lovers! Why did you point out that map? I am now going to be hopelessly lost in its details and I have work to do.
@Grumpy Dirt Lawyer Worse, I have a whole collection of links to maps of abandoned rail lines. I use them for work (we're in the same business).
Great article! Rail plays a huge role in how we competitively and efficiently operate as a building materials supplier here in NJ/NY. We receive ~500 railcars of lumber, plywood and drywall each year direct from mills and manufacturing facilities across North America and then deliver them direct to jobsites (custom homes, large multi-family, high rise projects, etc.) throughout the region. We'll soon be opening our newest facility in Newark, NJ which will have a rail line that runs through the property back to Newark Bay with enough rail to receive up to 30 rail cars at once! Jersey City, Staten Island, NYC are all visible across the Bay... @kuikenbrothers
34
@Kuiken Brothers Building Materials Yep Newark is ideally suited to distribute lumber and building supplies by truck to the metropolitan area. As you know, it would be impossible to build your new facility in Brooklyn or Queens. There's no room.
6
I do wish that the author would have included a map of these lines. I grew up in the Hunts Point section of the south-east Bronx, where trolley lines crossed railroad tracks and trestles in the east (for instance along the eastern stretches of the Tremont Ave. trolley line). I often wondered about where these tracks were going.
21
Maybe I missed it in this great article, but this rail line also removes NYC waste and moves it to the midwest. This became much more apparent when in Philadelphia, an issue with Schuylkill River area residents lobbying for access to the trails along the river (crossing the CSX rail line) was seen as counter lobbied by CSX, which parked the trash train for weeks along the very same space in the summer. Needless to say, the situation stank!
Now, there is a pedestrian bridge over the rail line connecting to the ever expanding river edge trail (I was on the team that designed and detailed the thing) and the trash train no longer is parked there.
4
@William Menke The Garbage trains leave from the Bronx and go up the Hudson River - different line from theses railroads entirely.
3
I've always been curious as to why freight rail disappeared too much. I have to imagine that the railroad monopolies priced themselves out and got undercut by the much more fragmented trucking industry, all while the government was working hard to subsidize trucking through highway construction. Interesting article.
15
It's always been a mystery to me why New York doesn't rely more on rail for commercial infrastructure. It's not like the major logistics hubs in New York are unknown. The supply chain has looked roughly the same for about a century now. A diminishing reliance on truck transportation seems long overdue. Actually, it's be nice to see the "last mile" supported by commercial light rail or something similar. You wouldn't even need most cargo vans. Give up one lane of traffic to free three more.
If it takes beer and pizza to make New York planners consider reasonable infrastructure solutions, I'm all for beer and pizza. We are talking simple logic here. Logistics planning, in theory, routinely uses logic.
14
Trains are an essential part of any sustainable future. They are far and away the most efficient way to move physical goods over land.
35
@mlbex Trains are a part of an efficient freight transportation system. Can you imagine receiving your Amazon packages by rail car at your front door? Or having to drive thirty miles to pick up your package at a massive rail served warehouse? New York City is much more congested than any place in California. We need trucks for the last mile(s).
3
Drew, you continue to read things that aren’t there. No one suggested a rail line to every house. No one suggested a train as a last mile vehicle. A small fedex truck is not the same as a 50 foot semi. Jeez.
10
@Paulie: Thanks. People sometimes read stuff that isn't there into my posts. It's useful to have someone else point it out.
1
I read this from my hotel bed adjacent to the very active tracks in Winslow, Arizona. The soft sound of the freight trains passing through the night were a soothing lullaby compared to the roar of the trucks I’d be listening to at a hotel out on the highway. We need to limit the destructive and dangerous trucks off of the roads!
12
@Jenny I don't suppose you drive a flatbed Ford ...
1
Take it easy.
All the major railroads that operated towards NYC had tug/barge operations along the Hudson River. Over the years, those railroads went bankrupt, and abandoned those prime rail yard locations along the New Jersey side of the river, where you now have condos, and businesses. The last remaining yard is the old Pennsylvania Railroad Greenville Yard where NYNJ Rail operates its cross harbor operation, connecting with the New York & Atlantic. When you consider the distance that needed for a freight car to travel from New Jersey to Long Island, the 150 mile one-way trip to Albany, and then south and ease, sounds insane. It makes great sense to keep the float operation going, but the cross harbor tunnel should have been built years ago.
22
Bravo to the article. Clearly, someone in a decision-making role read "For Whom the Bell Tolls: New York's Mortal Crisis in Goods Movement," from the Committee on Transportation of the Association of the Bar of the City of New York, The
Record of the Association, Vol. 46, No. 7, Nov. 1991.
Also, little known fact, Jerry Nadler is one of the leading government experts on transportation issues, including, notably, goods movement.
26
It's not the trains themselves that provide the benefit, it's the right-of way.
Roads are better than rail.
Roads are an open system: A road can carry pedestrians, bikes, motorcycles, cars, trucks, buses, hybrids, etc. Those vehicles can be powered by gas, diesel, electric, ethanol, hydrogen, etc. The infrastructure cost and maintenance is much less than rail. Putting billions into a rigid system for decades is madness when self driving cars are just around the corner.
For mass transit, buses are superior to rail in every way except in creating more government and union jobs.
Rail is a historical anomaly. If the internal combustion engine had been invented first, we wouldn't even have trains.
2
@George Orwell
Fella-
Trains move freight at a fraction of the cost ($$$ and environmental) of trucks, any way you look at it. Using trains to move freight reduces energy input, produces less pollution, and decongests roads.
84
@George Orwell
Some stats: the record capacity of a bus rapid transit line, held by TransMilenio, is 35,000 people her hour (and that's with separated lanes, high capacity buses, the works). On the other hand, the record capacity for a subway line, held by MTR, is 80,000 people per hour. I don't see how buses can match the sheer capacity of rail (even light rail) when it comes to mass transit.
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@George Orwell
not even one piece of this is true
Bus is superior to rail?
Have you actually ridden a bus?
Or the subway?
14
This is great, its very enjoyable to watch the barge docking and lined up by hand turning large valve wheels.
The rail right oh ways around the city are almost all intact and can serve parts of the city which are transit deserts. combing passenger service with cargo service could greatly reduce congestion outside of Manhattan. But the infrastructure to make it efficient enough will be expensive and require Port authority and MTA cooperation:
This includes rail tunnel to Brooklyn, which can connect to South Brooklyn and Queens industrial corridor and on into Long island.
A transfer yard in Staten Island where there is land (near Amazon) and a rail right of way in place.
Finally an added track to the LIRR that can increase passenger and cargo capacity out east. Hopefully that can put a dent in traffic that passes through Brooklyn and queens which always delays me more than Manhattan ever does.
12
Just to be clear, it may be re-emerging, not emerging. The Long Island Rail Road provided extensive freight service in the 19th and 20th centuries, and when I was young, New York harbor was filled with "car floats" moving freight cars between New Jersey and Brooklyn and Queens (and Manhattan and the Bronx).
P.S. NY&A locomotives do not "chug chug;" they are not steam locomotives.
32
When I first started working with a great bunch of Belgians, they told me how great their passenger rail service was, how pervasive and clean. Typical Europeans never realize how large the US is and my favorite example is to tell them the state of Texas is so large it covers all of western Europe including Britain as well. Yes U guys have a great rail system, all concrete ties and high speed trains but U also have a tiny place to cover. Yes the US railroad system went from coast to coast during the Grant presidency and they used untreated trees as ties because they were racing to get across the country quickly.
As a youngster we used to watch a local railroad steam engine go by and the driver and his helper would throw us 5 cent candy bars. When in China I traveled by rail across China and 25 YAG, they had huge stations and they really controlled who got tickets.
Glad to see NYC is getting more freight rail service going.
9
First time I have read that Cuomo's plan is to tax trucks at the highest rate. Those costs will be passed directly onto residents of NYC through increased prices on the goods the trucks are delivering.
The tax should be targeted at suburban commuters and tourists who have other options for getting into and around the city. Instead, you are penalizing residents in a way that will almost certainly have zero impact on congestion. As this article states, there are few options other than trucks for getting goods into city. This train is a drop in the bucket.
How is it that politicians still don't understand economics?
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@Paul
Trucks wear infrastructure much more than cars
the per unit cost of those fees are not significant to the individual user, but will affect corporate behavior
IE .1 cents on a bottle of beer you will not notice, but 100 bucks per trip[or whatever] on 10000 trips gets accountants attention
5
@Paul, to continue your analogy, every drop in the bucket still fills the bucket. Soon enough, the drops become a mighty stream.
I have seen several of the lines under discussion from the windows of a New York Transit Museum excursion train and can personally attest that the city and metropolitan rail corridors are a rich resource that is woefully underutilized. Rebuild and rehabilitate them and the freight traffic will come. Another analogy: you can't effectively and reliably drive a semi-trailer over an unmaintained dirt road. Railroads built our country. They still have as vital role to play in New York as they do elsewhere.
4
I'm surprised there was no mention of the proposed Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel.
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@KellyNYC
It was mentioned several times, the section quoting Jerry Nadler mentioned it and it was mentioned elsewhere.
7
Oops. So much for my speed reading skills.
@KellyNYC, yes, it's a great idea, but let's get the new tunnels to Penn Station built first before the current ones collapse and damage our entire regional economy. The barges will work well for the coming decades.
1
I was floored when I started working at the Brooklyn Army Terminal and first saw a freight train slowly rumbling down 1st Ave! Yes, down the middle of the street, from a recycling facility at 39th St to 58th St (and through the middle of BAT) are active freight tracks. Took a bit to get accustomed to this but became a welcome reminder of how NYC works.
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Here is a great idea: take the high line elevated sidewalk, and make it a rail line.
Old is new.
6
@Jtk, I agree that should have been done, but now the industries on its right-of-way are gone. A better contemporary use would have been as an elevated subway line to serve the residences that replaced those industries. The park is very nice, of course, but it is now there to stay.
@CP The residences in Chelsea around the High Line would most likely not have been built there at all but for the conversion of the unused rail line to the linear park that is so popular today. As you said, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, the industries were gone already and the high line was abandoned for decades. It is too short to be a new passenger light rail line, but just the right size to rejuvenate (and admittedly gentrify) the neighborhood, with the new or renovated properties adding to the tax base.
1
A map would have been helpful.
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Paul,
Here you go:
https://www.anacostia.com/railroads/nya
10
@Paul: Here you are: https://www.panynj.gov/port/express-rail.html
4
NY&A presents a green opportunity for NYC. Locomotives are already diesel electric. All that is needed are batteris and a charging system to make them plug-in hybrids. The battery and charging system need not be on the locomotive but could be in a tender car pulled just behind or pushed just ahead. NYC should fund a grant to the Grove School of Engineering - City College of New York to look into this.
40
A lesson in remembering history. The U.S. had one of the world's great rail systems, until Congress and trucking interests forced many railroads out of existence, built roads and encouraged driving. A few people became very rich, the public lost affordable public transport and farmers lost low cost (not always) crop transport. Building back the railroads and investing in commuter lines and high speed lines will take decades--probably as long as it took to destroy the railroads.
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@Chris
The US had a grossly overbuilt rail system: much of it was a continent-wide Monopoly game for speculator-investors whose primary interest was to make money off selling bonds, goosing stock values, building parallel lines to force purchases of the excess capacity (in other words, blackmail) and grabbing chunks of railroad line from each other, with little real interest in running useful and cost-efficient railroads.
One of the major problems now is not that the patterns of development over the past 50 years have not aligned well with the core rail network of the country.
15
@Chris- Actually, to rebuild railroads Democrats who rule most urban areas need to make the very tough decisions regarding where to locate new track bed to handle high speed trains. In Europe and Japan that meant clearing neighborhoods and tearing down homes! What is the chance that will happen in the NY area today! In the current environment, never!
15
@Greg
Some of it was the greed of the railroads, the NY Central and the Pennsylvania were classic examples, but what you write about the railroads primarily is talking about the pre WWII world, much of the things about stealing rail routes and the like was the 19th century.
The rail networks took their big hit in the post WWII world. Some of that was the railroads not putting money into rationalizing routes and using operations management to make themselves more efficient, but a lot of it was political. The interstate commerce commission, for example, set a bottom on rates the railroads could charge, but meanwhile the trucking companies were free to charge what they wanted;not to mention that trucks and the road use taxes they pay from fuel taxes and direct taxes pay only a fraction of the cost of having them on the roads, trucks cause a majority of the wear on highways and roads, so they are basically subsidized. It is telling that once the ICC rates were finally changed (I believe it was the late 60's-early 70's), the railroad industry rebounded. NYC paid the price, no one thought to keep rail service into the city as a priority, the rail yards that existed on the west side (Hudson Yards, Trump development on upper west side) were abandoned then became housing (Hudson Yards has LIRR yards, but they can' t be used for freight).
11
Yet they want to make another "High-Line" park out of the abandoned LIRR Rockaway Branch. That line needs to be reactivated for freight, passenger or both, not made into a walking trail.
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@Steve Yes but that line has not been used in a long time and several studies have demonstrated how costly and impractical rebuilding and reactivating that line would be. This line, the New York & Atlantic, already runs on viable tracks.
2
Fascinating story. I suppose I had to know that freight trains got into NYC in some way, but I didn’t know the specifics. I think I’ve seen old turn-of-the-20th-century photos of freight trains coming south into Manhattan from points north.
Please keep these stories of how New York operates coming. I recall one of the local TV channels doing something similar in the late 1960s or early 1970s. A reporter would spend a day filming people doing what would be considered ordinary — but very important — jobs and then showing a long segment on the local news.
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@Frank
There was a huge rail infrastructure in NYC, now long gone. The west side of Manhattan waterfront had a huge number of piers, where the many railroads (NY Central, Pennsylvania, Jersey Central, Erie, prob others) would float cars across the river from NJ to bring products into NYC. There were large rail yards where Hudson yards now is, as well as in the 60's on the west side where the Trump developement is. There were huge rail yards in the south bronx (still is in hunts point, where goods shipped by water could be offloaded and vice/versa) where railroads like the Central, NY/New Haven &hartford brought things in), in queens (sunnyside yard), it was here and was lost.
14
Nice to see that NYC is joining the 19th century! In much the same way as the late re-awakening to the use of ferries in a city blessed with many waterways took decades, the dawn of a new age of freight railroading makes perfect economic and environmental sense. Taking trucks off local highways and delivering pizza dough and beer? Who can oppose that?
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@Frank
Before the Brooklyn Bridge took over, there were 200 ferries running daily between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
6
How short sighted we as a city are. The Port Authority was formed back in the 1920s specifically to build a cross-harbor tunnel and never got around to it. And, again in the '20s, the city started building a tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island that would have carried both freight and subway service, connecting with the island's north shore rail line. Never happened--the project was stopped because of squabbling among city and state officials. We're reaping the consequences of the myopia of the last century.
39
This used to be the set up in Paris a few decades ago. Trains + large trucks would deliver the goods to the many warehouses that ringed the city, and little city trucks would pick up the merchandise and dispatch it throughout the city. It worked great - until it was phased out - and the warehouses are all fancy lofts now.
Plus ça change, and all that ...
8
Sustainability, Growth and Environmental Protections are complicated and interwoven. All involve investments into mass transit and rail systems. All improve life for all people.
ie: The JFK train to the plane is a case study in how mass transit should work.
The expansion of subway access is one of many necessary projects.
Reducing dependency on trucks for hauling just makes sense.
Improving rail infrastructure is a benefit to US quality of life.
When hearing about plans for congestion pricing my main thought is that reducing ticket prices to the point where it is cheaper for groups to ride than drive will be more effective than increases. Any congestion price revenue should be used to build more accessible/affordable mass transit throughout the city and suburbs.
14
This is all so great. I especially love the increased use of the rail barges across the bay - really brings back some of NYC's industrial past. Awesome job!
14
What a hopeful alternative to our dependence on trucks. I only hope that there is some way to ensure that only safe cargo is transported through densely populated areas. In Philadelphia, CSX and others carry oil and chemicals through the city on a daily basis.
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@Cheryl
It would be on trucks in the same neighborhood, but instead vying with taxis and your 96 YO great aunt Margaret
2
I think this is great news. All the rail lines that sit idle can be used! Fantastic.
13
Am glad freight rail is getting a look.
It deserves it. Much of New York's freight (and Westchester, LI, CT) gets trucked to NJ & PA warehouses, where it then gets trucked in.
That's food, consumables, everything! If rail freight can be moved further east into New York, savings would be quite immense.
23